Oh yes, toilet paper. It is in the title of the article, mentioned twice, and no less than two comments said "life is not worth living without tp". Although I hadn't finished my first cup of tea, I had to point out in my comment that my firangi friends who've tried water haven't wanted to go back. And yes, that it's a little pathetic to cling so to the Charmin'.

My FOB friends swear that TP is unhygienic compared to a lota; a buddy from silicon valley used to smuggle his in and out of the bathroom because he just felt … dirtier without.

this is true. if you fell face first on a pile of shit, would you just wipe the shit off w/ TP, or use water.

Manju,

If my face looked as bad as my a'hole, I would probably use TP :-)

The point here is not what is more hygienic? The point is what is more convenient. TP is and helps keep the restrooms cleaner too. Try going to a Public Restroom where everyone uses water and a lota.........

The middleground, moist wipes :-) Hygienic and convenient.

--qt

The middleground, moist wipes :-) Hygienic and convenient.

qualified_trash:

Brilliant! Never thought of that.

Of course, there is the biday, but a society not ready for gay marriage probably won't take to a machine that shoots a powerful stream up one's ass. Bathroom RealPolitik.

Moist wipes it is.

Speaking of toddler behavior, how come me no get credit for the news link/tip?

Never mind. I love you guys anyway :-)

On a related tip, Al Gore went mano-a- mano w/ Oklahoma Senator and global warming skeptic Inhofe in Barbara Boxer's Environment and Public Works Committee yesterday. Inhofe was ofcourse aching to call out Gore on his extravagantly wasteful Supersized McMansion. Gore predictably replied with the carbon credit off-setting argument. More disturbing is that I watched 2 hours of C-Span last nite.

Not very impressed either, this protectionism disguised as environmentalism is just going to make it harder for the developing world to better their lot. Sorry, but I aint buying it.

I had a white, Westchester, NY-raised friend in college who refused to wipe his ass with anything other than a moist towelette (or barring that a faucet-moistened paper towel). I had never heard of such a thing before, but it's pure genius. Charmin used to sell individually wrapped towelettes for just such a purpose, but I don't know if they still do.

Gore predictably replied with the carbon credit off-setting argument

i think he buys the credits form his own hedge fund, taking the enlightenment credit card concept to a whole new level. If only poor Ted Haggard was as imaginative.

I had never heard of such a thing before, but it's pure genius. Charmin used to sell individually wrapped towelettes for just such a purpose,

Shhh. This sounds like a Sepia Mutiny Start up Venture. AMFD, please get one of your IP friends to patent it. MoorNam will raise the money. Vinod can run it.

This is how the Gores, Winfreys, and Bonos think. Can't let them make all the money.

See I read the article and thought it was an interesting concept and can't always have a kneejerk reaction by comparing everything to India and poopooing choices people make no matter how small. Of course there are those that believe that Al Gore is a big faker and global warming is a big hoax. Every little bit counts. I made a lot of significant changes for me in the past year that were personal and that sometimes are made fun of and there is certainly nothing snobby about it. What this article does is validate the choices a lot of people have made to their everyday life in their own little way irrespective of how much more ecoefficient Dharavi may be. We don't live in Dharavi we live here.

I actually rather enjoyed the break from the TP when I went to India. I couldn't understand though how people just allowed themselves to be wet. Not an option that worked for me so I used a towel after water (I realize TMI) but it was certainly much more cleaner and a matter of getting used to. Obviously everyone has a bedei (spell??) in India and those aren't available here in the US so a no TP option is no good. I did install a hose at home that I'm quite happy with. It was rather easy to install and stems right out of my sink piping and has it's own shutoff.

Plus, we can perfume the SM Moist Ass-Wipe with an incense scent, just to make it exotic. Sell it for $35/ roll. Bobo's will love it.

It's important to note that the motivation behind Dharavi's "recylcing" isn't high minded eco-commitment ala Al Gore but rather, cold hard economic incentive ala Al Greenspan.

I floated over to No Impact Man's blog. It's an interesting read. But there are a few troubling items... most notably the way he describes his wife (whom he uses as a foil; a sort of "see what the consumerist person wants, and see how I, the enlightened environmentalist, can set her straight?").

Also he never really describes what he's using in lieu of toilet paper. One would think that if he had found a lota, he would have written about it. On the other hand, if the rules are "no buying anything except food," then he probably wouldn't have gotten his hands on one.

So the timing of this post -- by design or accident?
Happy Thursday lunch everyone.

Moist towelettes sound like a good compromise but they are worse for the environment than either water or tp as they take longer to degrade not to mention all the chemicals used in making them "smell good". Individually wrapped towelettes create way more waste than necessary.

Crap green.

Ok, I'm a tamil. Tamils were raised to respect paper because you get education through paper and all legal documents are of paper, if my foot accidentally touches a paper, I must touch the paper with my hands and then touch my eyes much like I am praying / being blessed. So we are not supposed to use paper to wipe our ass because it is disrespectfull to the paper..

I used TP when I was younger but stopped after my last trip to India..

Bidet

Every little bit counts

, said the old sailor pissing into the sea.

if my foot accidentally touches a paper, I must touch the paper with my hands and then touch my eyes much like I am praying / being blessed.

That would make for an interesting adventure while walking down a New York City street.

Moist towelettes sound like a good compromise but they are worse for the environment than either water or tp as they take longer to degrade not to mention all the chemicals used in making them "smell good". Individually wrapped towelettes create way more waste than necessary.

damn, your right. this will make it difficult to market the SM moist ass-wipe to bobos. we'll need to start an SM ass-wipe offset hedge fund, so they'll feel guilt-free and we can make even more $$.

Manju,

damn, your right. this will make it difficult to market the SM moist ass-wipe to bobos. we'll need to start an SM ass-wipe offset hedge fund, so they'll feel guilt-free and we can make even more $$.

Ofcourse, for consumption in the EU, we will call it the Poopie Tax.

JOAT writes:
>> I made a lot of significant changes for me in the past year that were personal

If I could highlight this word more, I would. This is the distinction I make as well: I will be as environmentally friendly as humanly possible, but only in a personal manner. I will not join the Gorebal warming brigade who tell others what to do and what not to do.

M. Nam

It's called a douche (not to be confused with the slur).

Tamils were raised to respect paper because you get education through paper

I am Tamil. And I was not raised like you.

@Vinod 13, I agree, grinding poverty is the strongest economic incentive.

Hey that Indian toilet cartoon and others here missed out on the left hand along with the water to wash the bottom! I hope all of you eating with your fingers are using your right hand and washing it before and after the meal:)

Vinod, here the incentive is economic too - its just that its to supress green movements lest we upset the corporate hierarchy that is in no mood to encourage less consumerism and higher production costs.

Here's my prediction - this chap is conducting a yearlong experiment/stunt with his wife. Before the year is out, one of them will contract an infectious disease ( why ? stats. ). The money and medicine needed to cure them will completely make a mockery of their experiment, as in, it won't be voodoo/herbs/non-impact cure, it will most definitely be a bunch of allopathic drugs administered by hi-tech NYC hospital staff, even one day's worth of which will completely negate whatever creative non-impact sacrifices these chaps have made.

Firang goes to India and looks around and says, My, these people live such a simple life! Let me be one of them. I'll eat native foods and drink water from the well and sleep on a cot outside. In a week, firang's immune system trips up. He's just not accustomed to the dust/germs/elements, having lived a westernized super-hygenic lifestyle all his life. Sick firang calls consulate, is rushed to super speciality Apollo hospital, and pay thru the nose to be re-Americanized. How many times have I not seen that movie ? This couple's story plays out like the perfect sequel. They're creating a mini-India right inside their fifth avenue apartment, what with home-made yogurt, worms composting garbage, fruit-scrap vinegar and no TP. One small mis-step is all it takes, and the germs will own your ass. The scary part is that this couple is not part of a far-off isolated commune, instead they are mingling with the rest of Manhattan on a day to day basis. If they contract some hard-to-cure infection, and God forbid pass it on, NYC will have thousands of really sick citizens and will swear off environmentalism for the rest of their lives. And that, like the shredded cabbage and home-made vinegar they're eating, will leave a really bad taste in everybody's mouth.

Here's my prediction - this chap is conducting a yearlong experiment/stunt with his wife. Before the year is out, one of them will contract an infectious disease ( why ? stats. ).

Who's more at risk -- the couple or their two year old daughter?

I've attempted being environmentally conscious and active in Uttar Pradesh India and it just does not work. Without having to go into details about what I did during my menstrual cycle (the locals just throw their pads, cloths, etc on the banks of the sacred Jamuna river, or in Her waters, which anyway wash up on the shore shortly thereafter) suffice it to say that it was a BIG BIG BIG deal trying to deal with just that one little aspect of life in a place that has no way to effectively deal with trash.

My own personal environmental struggle was enough to deal with, add to that trying to be somewhat of an activist there and get others involved and the result is an almost insane woman today.

I think the elders who grew up on buying milk, yogurt, etc in clay pots also think that the modern day plastic bags (called "polythins") are somehow also biodegradable because you find them thrown around everywhere, just like you would small clay pots. It's not rare to find a hog who is excreting a plastic bag from it's behind in such areas. Even the cows eat polythins - poor things.

The Indians and non-Indians who are trying to bring about change in UP are facing alot of difficulties.

One such person donated a sapling to each "baba" in one holy place to plant outside their kutir and the municipality of the town ordered all the babas to return the saplings explaining that this was a conspiracy by foriegners to again eventually take over India again.

I finally gave up and started living easier, at first with guilt, but now guilt-free coz I don't see anyone else really caring.

The money and medicine needed to cure them will completely make a mockery of their experiment, as in, it won't be voodoo/herbs/non-impact cure, it will most definitely be a bunch of allopathic drugs administered by hi-tech NYC hospital staff,

But they might have gotten sick anyway, experiment or not, so it doesn't negate their low impact lives, because if they got sick and needed medical attention with a "normal" life, their impact would be much higher. And they are not advocating eschewing medical care, anyway. I don't know why people feel the need to be so hyper-critical or anyone that tries to lead a morally consistent life, even as an experiment. Is it because you are secretly guilty about your impact on the world? I feel guilty about not being an environmentally "better" person, but I don't hate people that are better at it than me. Especially in this case, where it is obviously an experiment--they are not advocating that everyone live this way.

I don't know why people feel the need to be so hyper-critical or anyone that tries to lead a morally consistent life, even as an experiment. Is it because you are secretly guilty about your impact on the world? I feel guilty about not being an environmentally "better" person, but I don't hate people that are better at it than me. Especially in this case, where it is obviously an experiment--they are not advocating that everyone live this way.

Thanx for saying it so succinctly. I'm surprised at how many people are attacking them in general especially with so much vitriole. It doesn't matter that it's an experiment. I can't imagine living the way they are for two weeks much less a year. More power to them for making it work and that too with a baby in the house. It's not easy. Irrespective of whether it's a stunt it takes commitment and a lot of adjustments on their part.

I’m just not impressed. Don’t get me wrong, as an ABD I like my conveniences, and I’m not willingly going give this one up. On the other hand, it just doesn’t seem like that much of a hard core thing to do. My FOB friends swear that TP is unhygienic compared to a lota; a buddy from silicon valley used to smuggle his in and out of the bathroom because he just felt … dirtier without.

I lived in an American "ashram" for sometime in my youth where we did not use toilet paper and there were little lotas next to the toilet. The thing is that one is really supposed to take a full bath after going number two, because one is considered "contaminated" after passing poo. One is supposed to poo not in their clothing but in a gamcha/loongi that is reseverd only for that. After passing one is meant to fully cleanse oneself via shower (bucket bath in most of India). Then one can put on clean clothes and partake of temple activities for other home activities that require high cleanliness standards - like cooking. Lotas with modern sit down toilets DO NOT WORK - it gets REAL messy and gross.

Anyway, when I first started doing that, putting my hand you-know-where was totally repulsive to me. Thus I started wiping with toilet paper first, then IMMEDIATELY jumping in the shower to thoroughly cleanse myself as per ashram/temple standards.

When I first went to India I had alot of urinary tract infections and the doctor told me it was very common there because the women do not dry themselves after cleaning themselves with water after urinating. He told me to cleanse with water, then use toilet paper to dry so that the infections would stop.

The combination of toilet paper first then shower/bath after pooing is the most hygenic and clean (for hand as well as other areas). Urinating you have to rinse first then dry with toilet paper.

Just using toilet paper alone like is done in America is really not hygenic. Nor is using lota with western style sit down toilet. The highest level of hygeine can be attained by using toilet paper, water (full shower), and anti-bacterial soap.

"My FOB friends swear that TP is unhygienic compared to a lota" since when do only FOBS use lota, i have been in this country my whole life, and i still use lota, as does most of south asia, it isn't some crazy concept...i am proud not to have an itchy stinky ass, with remnants of shit still hanging around all day...

I thought humanity had solved the poop problem. I hadn't realized the issue was still operative.

i have been in this country my whole life, and i still use lota, as does most of south asia, it isn't some crazy concept...i am proud not to have an itchy stinky ass, with remnants of shit still hanging around all day...

But lota is also very unhygenic if you use only that.

1. your hand has to touch poo which is REALLY unhygenic (under fingernails anyone?)
2. anti-bacterial soap is a MUST while cleaning one's backside, and alot of people just use water (eww)
3. the pooey water inevitably goes all over the toilet seat and floor (had to deal with that MANY times)

The best is to wipe with toilet paper first (that way the hand never comes in direct contact with poo), and then just in the shower to thoroughly cleanse oneself with SOAP and water. Those removable shower heads are best coz you can angle them right up in there where they are most needed.

I'm surprised at how many people are attacking them in general especially with so much vitriole.

It's probably due to how they are presenting themselves rather than what they are actually doing.

I, for example, crinkle just a little when I read a description of how noble and exciting it is to give up buying clothes and books and wine, and read that No Impact Man allowed his wife to buy two pairs of Chloe boots (which are priced somewhere between $500-1000 a pair, depending on the style) as an "inauguration present."

It makes me want to say "don't pat yourselves on the back for living without luxuries unavailable to tens of thousands of your fellow Americans and millions of people across the world."

I was just going to address the concern that MoS talked about. I am fine with the part of using water and no TP after pooping, but females need to be dry down there after peeing becuase we also have other discharge. The TP use after urinating helps keep us dry. My lived for 30 yrs in India and had lots of problems with UTI's while she was there, after we immigrated here and she used TP, she has no problems. I on the other hand get rashes with wetness (I know this WAY TMI but I trying to make a point) and it is not fun.

man, i knew this would devolve into a tp / water debate ...

I'm surprised at how many people are attacking them in general especially with so much vitriole. It doesn't matter that it's an experiment.

JOAT, i agree to a certain point ... but i guess

1)the extreme measures they are taking (food from w/in a certain distance)
2)the book deal / experimental nature (which makes me think that this is just a temporary thing for them)
3)rules that aren't rules (ie the wife went on a major shopping binge before since they can use stuff that they already own (which would answer the what if they got sick question unless it was something major), they can accept gifts, etc ...

just makes me feel like its just a stunt w/ a payoff for them in the future ... i just feel like people who make simple, life long changes (no paper/plastic plates & utensils) are doing something better for the environment, without all the hullaballoo of these people

I remember telling some East African friends about washing with water, assuming they did it too (my Indian friend and I were joking about it) and they were absolutely shocked. They use TP (and one of them was from rural Kenya) and had no idea that Indians washed. Likewise, I had no idea that the rest of the developing world used TP (except in Muslim countries).

The highest level of hygeine can be attained by using toilet paper, water (full shower), and anti-bacterial soap.

If you're obsessed with hygiene, maybe (which seems to happen to a lot of people when they visit or move to India). But anti-bacterial soap is probably excessive. Your poop is going to have bacteria in it whatever you do. Some people are just more prone to those bacteria making their way into your urethra and causing UTIs. Wiping may actually make that worse if you wipe in the wrong direction. Do whatever you need to to feel clean and avoid UTIs, but I don't think there's any scientific evidence that one way is better than another.

Sounds like the Chris Martin brand of environmentalism.

I was just going to address the concern that MoS talked about. I am fine with the part of using water and no TP after pooping, but females need to be dry down there after peeing becuase we also have other discharge. The TP use after urinating helps keep us dry. My lived for 30 yrs in India and had lots of problems with UTI's while she was there, after we immigrated here and she used TP, she has no problems. I on the other hand get rashes with wetness (I know this WAY TMI but I trying to make a point) and it is not fun.

It's a major health concern in India. Many poor and un-informed people think living with UTI is normal.

Also about the rash - especially in heat, wearing saris where legs are rubbing against one another alot - with or without underwear on, that was a problem for me as well. I switched to salwar-kameez and that helped.

Also, the water that one is cleansing oneself with in India is not clean. Lots of bacteria and stuff in that too. That's why even after peeing one should use anti-bacterial soap or something.

@Tambram 28. We need to consider the fact that these people are conducting a carefully thought out experiment. I am not convinced that the anecdotal example you give applies in their case. On another note, I like Prof. Arthur Brooks's take on this in their weblog:

http://noimpactman.typepad.com/blog/2007/03/giving_and_impa.html

: But they might have gotten sick anyway

Their experiment has exponentially increased the odds of contracting an ID because their immune system isn't upto par.

:so it doesn't negate their low impact lives

Oh, but it does. See, if you have saved $1000 in non-impact costs, and Medicare/Insurance is going to have to foot $1200 to cure your ID, then that's a $200 negation right there. You would have been better off doing nothing. Currently, ppl who buy the Prius are making the same mistake. Over the lifetime of the car, the costs of owning & operating a Prius is actually more environmentally destructive than a disel VW, or a 5-speed manual Corolla. As of today. In the near future, Prius will win the battle ( hopefully ), but as of now, if you want to save the environment, a VW diesel is your best bet. Counter-intuitive but nevertheless true.

:I don't know why people feel the need to be so hyper-critical or anyone that tries to lead a morally consistent life, even as an experiment.

I condemn not the experiment but the location of the experiment. They can join an isolated commune in Maine or construct a bio-pod in Montana or whatever's hip these days. Then, if they're totally screwed ( ie. contract some contagious incurable ID ), we can simply nuke their pod & write off the experimenters as collateral damage. But these folks are in the middle of Manhattan. You might run across them at the CVS or brush past them at Borders, and then who is liable for whatever illness you might contract ? Now scale that up by the population of NYC. The plaintiff has rights.

If you're obsessed with hygiene, maybe (which seems to happen to a lot of people when they visit or move to India). But anti-bacterial soap is probably excessive. Your poop is going to have bacteria in it whatever you do. Some people are just more prone to those bacteria making their way into your urethra and causing UTIs. Wiping may actually make that worse if you wipe in the wrong direction. Do whatever you need to to feel clean and avoid UTIs, but I don't think there's any scientific evidence that one way is better than another.

Anyway, in ashram/temple life one is ALWAYS taught to bathe fully after pooing and put on clean clothes (the really strict ones shampoo their hair every time too for top to bottom "purity"). Otherwise you are not "pure" to participate in ritual activities. I doubt though that the Indians who taught us that were using anti-bacterial soap, but I do. And it is very neccessary for one's hands since one is touching a very dirty area and touching poo itself nonetheless! And it's best to keep one's fingernails super short.

An added advantage is that in the West I found such a high level of cleanliness is very much appreciated by adventuresome lovers, so a clean booty can work wonders for your love life!!!

Their experiment has exponentially increased the odds of contracting an ID because their immune system isn't upto par

why isn't it up to par? (and no its not obvious to me)

@MOS 45

http://www.webmd.com/news/20051020/fda-panel-no-advantage-to-antibacterial-soap

I think regular soap will do fine.

so the problem with wet-naps is that you can't really flush them down the toilet, and if you just pile them up in the garbage, they start to stink... especially if there isn't a good civic waste desposal system. i didn't like to throw them down my pit latrine either, because they won't decompose.

i always just washed, no TP wipe, give a good shake afterwards, and never had any female problems. the big advantages of the wash-not-wipe method is when you have dysentary... third world TP can be very chafing when you're using it 30 times a day. :P

why isn't it up to par? (and no its not obvious to me)

Not obvious to me either and I'm an MD. Seems like you could eat locally in New York State and get pretty much all the nutrition you need with a little creativity. Their immune systems should be just fine.

And the antibacterial soap thing is silly. All soap is antibacterial. I wash my hands with regular Softsoap when I get home from the hospital and it seems to work just fine. We do use Purel and antibacterial wash at work but I'd feel okay about using just regular soap too.

so the problem with wet-naps is that you can't really flush them down the toilet

Why not?

The real prob with them is that they also "smear" like TP, but just not as much.

Again, the solution is to SHOWER after pooing.

For pee wet wipes are good though. And they are think enough to flush.

Not obvious to me either and I'm an MD. Seems like you could eat locally in New York State and get pretty much all the nutrition you need with a little creativity. Their immune systems should be just fine.

And they probably stocked up on multi-vitamin tablets as well before they started this.

I know alot of people who live pretty much like these two are trying and it's no big deal at all.

Soap is soap. Save your money and skip the antibacterial bit:

Summary of JAMA article about a study in Pakistan

An intensive program of handwashing education and promotion in Pakistan decreased the incidence of diarrhea by more than 50 percent among children

The relevant graf:

The authors found similar reductions in diarrhea in households using both plain and antibacterial soap. The authors report, "We found no significant difference in diarrheal disease among persons living in households receiving antibacterial soap compared with plain soap. This is not surprising because triclocarban [in the antibacterial soap] is a bacteriostatic agent that inhibits the growth of some gram-positive bacteria but is not effective against gram-negative bacteria, viruses, or parasites that cause infectious diarrhea." The authors note that the act of handwashing with soap physically removes pathogens that may cause diarrhea from hands that might otherwise transmit these pathogens to vulnerable infants.

Sohwhat -

i always just washed, no TP wipe, give a good shake afterwards, and never had any female problems. the big advantages of the wash-not-wipe method is when you have dysentary... third world TP can be very chafing when you're using it 30 times a day. :P

I like the system in Malaysia and Bangladesh where TP is available and also there are shower type hoses next to the toilets to enable you to cleanse with water.
I always carried the charmin wet tissues with me juuuust in case there is no TP.
But i tend to feel the best course is to use tP first then take water (using left hand at all times, unless you are left handed!).

it was the Chinese who invented paper and ergo toilet paper, but it is the Japanese who have perfected the art of wiping your behind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_toilets

http://www.totousa.com/washlets_landing2.asp

#51 On second thoughts, after reading their non-impact blog, I guess I was shooting my mouth off. If they're armed with multivitamins and antifungal cream and neosporin and soap and few other miracles of modernity, they can probably pull this off if they are real careful & and be a hero in a movie and sell some books too.

I was just discussing Arthur Brooks take ( #43) with a few folks here. Brooks makes the case that "private action" is just as effective as collective action. A few years back at this investment bank, we got a memo asking for a $50 donation per employee for a christmas charity drive. Being a fob, I did some quick mental math - Total number of employees times $50 - I wrote back suggesting if the CEO donated just 1 week's paycheck, that would instantly dwarf the total amount from all those $50 donations. I forgot I was on a corporate mailserver!! That email got forwarded all over the place and I took some real heat that day. But nobody disputed my calculation - the CEO's paycheck was so out of whack that all employees combined times $50 was still less than his one week's paycheck. Colin Beavan's individual action may be laudable, but the collective's wastefulness dwarfs his no-impact effort to a point where it makes no real financial sense. The average Manhattan office-goer is definitely leaving his PC on all night...that alone adds up to a staggering amount of energy...few thousand kilowatts, enough to power a whole smalltown. If you add the costs of all those upscale upper west side folk dry-cleaning, the suits and ties and coats and scarves, or the time when their TVs are on but they aren't really watching, or when they run the washing machines to take off some minor stain...the collective's wastefulness completely dwarfs this chap's thrift. So much for the effectiveness of individual action. In fact, even Beavan acknowledges in his blog - "some changes we make are more philosophical than scientific."

Also, the water that one is cleansing oneself with in India is not clean. Lots of bacteria and stuff in that too. That's why even after peeing one should use anti-bacterial soap or something.

I'm an ABD and lived in India for year with no water related problems. I did not use TP and drank Aquaguard filtered water. I agree that the water is not very clean, but at the same time Americans are obsessed with anit-bacterial anything. Many studies have been done that show anti-bacterial soap kills the good bacteria on your hands as well (yes, you do have good bacteria on your hands and in your body).

Anyhow, I do think washing with water is much cleaner, but a wipe down with TP or a towel afterward is necessary, especially for a woman and especially if you are wearing jeans. There is nothing worse than wearing damp underwear with jeans, I know TMI, but this topic is fodder for TMI.

I have to say the first time I did wash with water and no TP, I was extremely disgusted and wash my hands like someone with OCD. But you get over it.

It's just easier in America to use TP because we don't have those nice water jets/bidets installed in our toilets.

As far as those moist towelettes, you can get them in the feminine care isle and they do have the kind you can flush. Charmin has unscented ones that come in a travel size pack. I used these while travelling in Southeast Asia because often times the TP is like used sandpaper and at the same time extremly thin, I don't know how they manage to do that.

Happy National Goof Off Day! Wish I was goofing off in the warm sunshine instead of this windowless office...

Digressing from TPs to homes, some links about env friendly homes...

http://www.inika.com/chitra/

http://www.goodearthhomes.net/

http://www.hindu.com/pp/2005/10/08/stories/2005100800890200.htm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1599702,00.html

@Tambram 56 That must have been a painful lesson in email etiquette. I concede your larger point about it not making a huge difference in the world. It is still an interesting experiment and the limitations on the extent to which one can carry it out (or one ends up carrying it out) are instructive. Besides, there is something to be said for walking the talk, even if it's only for a year.

“an elegant prewar on Lower Fifth Avenue”. They’re eating only locally grown food stuffs and eschewing even spices, olive oil and vinegar because these come from further away

Second of all, I'm sure it's easy for them to afford (usually more expensive) locally grown food, considering they can afford to live on what Corcoran calls the Gold Coast.

I'm an ABD and lived in India for year with no water related problems.

I'm an ABA and lived in India for over a decade and had Typhoid Fever 3 times, Malaria once, dysentary about 500 times and urinary tract infections ongoing.

S'cuse my ignorance. What's an ABA?

ABA = American born American, i guess.

MoS: I'm sorry to hear abt your plight.

@MoS #61

I'm an ABA and lived in India for over a decade and had Typhoid Fever 3 times, Malaria once, dysentary about 500 times and urinary tract infections ongoing.

I'm not trying to be a troll, but what is your water source that you have had typhoid and dysentary so many times?

Granted I was VERY careful to the point of anal-retentive about the water I drank. Only Aquaguard at home and bottled when out and I didn't drink water at homes that didn't use A-guard. I also never ate chutneys or drank nimbu pani or other fresh fruit drinks outside of the house because those usually have water in them and you just don't know the source.

I know this isn't very scientific but I do think a certain part of my resistance is from going to visit India intermittently and building up a resistance that way. And part of it is genetic having parents born in India and receiving some of their natural resitance.

I'm an ABA and lived in India for over a decade and had Typhoid Fever 3 times, Malaria once, dysentary about 500 times and urinary tract infections ongoing.

A

nd part of it is genetic having parents born in India and receiving some of their natural resitance.

A natural resistance? Millions of Indians get thyphoid fever in India - the ones born and raised there. It is so common that it is treated like we treat the common cold over here in USA - "take this pill and call me after 3 days". The docs are very casual about it.

Well, I was moderately careful about my drinking water. And I did eat and drink stuff from outside. When you live there for a long time it is very difficult to be super careful about that kind of stuff, what to speak of it not being fun to not be able to drink lassis and what-not when you are in a social setting.

Sorry about being off topic above...

But I do think that Indians are very resourceful in recycling in ways that Americans don't think as traditional recycling. But as Ennis said "These sound like hazardous working conditions, and I’m sure much of what’s going on is toxic."

My cousin told me a great story about oily rags he uses to start the furnace for his cast iron factory when they have heats. He gets them from a vendor who collects them from an industry that I can't remember (sorry!) where people's hands get oily/greasy and they wipe them on old rags. I doubt it is environmentally sound to start a fire with oily rags, but perhpas it's better than discarding of them in a landfill.

ABA = American born American, i guess.

ABA = American born American, i guess.

Thanks for the clarification but isn't that tautologous?

Anyway, that was totally off topic.

Mos was saying...

A natural resistance? Millions of Indians get thyphoid fever in India - the ones born and raised there. It is so common that it is treated like we treat the common cold over here in USA - "take this pill and call me after 3 days". The docs are very casual about it.

Mos, dont take this personally, but I think your immune system is way below average from what you described.

i agree its worse than the US,etc. but....look, even a 'million' out of a billion still leaves a rather small probability for a random person to contract typhoid just like that so many times. Its not like u go to india and every other person is suffering from typhoid... hmmm. no way. i'm assuming you are just exaggerating. or did u really believe what you said?!?!

Typhoid is the 5th most common communicable disease in India ... Typhoid is a major cause of absenteeism in schools and workplaces... Typhoid is a major cause of death in developing countries, including India[Link]

Thanks for the clarification but isn't that tautologous?

Yeah, I agree with you it sounds a little silly to say ABA. Maybe its just that mos doesnt want to call themselves 'desi' but wanted to convey that they were born in america. Just a guess.

I thought ABA meant either white or American Bar Association. I couldn't tell which.

Typhoid is the 5th most common communicable disease in India ... Typhoid is a major cause of absenteeism in schools and workplaces... Typhoid is a major cause of death in developing countries, including India[Link]

i saw that link. thanks.
Well, yeah. major cause, big problem, etc. major cause of absenteeism in the sense, it probably means if u get typhoid u lose school for a couple of months. I agree. But it doesnt mean *most* people get typhoid. I still believe most people DON'T get typhoid, though its obvious that many do. But still, if my life depended on the following question: "Is Mos immune system below average?"
My answer would be yes, and with a pretty good level of confidence based on the given info. Pardon me mos. i dont mean to insult you, though.

Mos, dont take this personally, but I think your immune system is way below average from what you described.

i agree its worse than the US,etc. but....look, even a 'million' out of a billion still leaves a rather small probability for a random person to contract typhoid just like that so many times. Its not like u go to india and every other person is suffering from typhoid... hmmm. no way. i'm assuming you are just exaggerating. or did u really believe what you said?!?!

No, I'm not exagerating. But my immune system may be below average, especially at this point. However, it was very common in the area I was living for people to be sick ALOT. Especially with fevers. Jaundice, Thyphoid and Malaria are very common there - amongst the Indians and foriegners both.
At one point I started noticing how alot of women had patches of bald spots on their head and later learned that was usually due to thyphoid fever, since a high fever can make the hair follicles weak and the hair fall out.

i am nri in u.s. for many years; have shifted to tp because i prefer it to wet bathroom, but maybe it's a question of technique: my eco-thinking american partner uses water always now after her trips to india, and bathroom is not a mess afterwards. she is very practical and not a manic about "antibacterial anything."

also, regarding "women's issues" she uses this for past decade and has given many out to numerous indian friends who are completely converted away from cloth or disposables: http://www.keeper.com/

All other things being equal, the picture of 'lota' accompanying the article is a bit unnerving. Its too shiny and clean to qualify as 'lota'. Plus the angle and sharp edges can be quite dangerous in untrained hands!

Would it be wrong or funny to market lotas in the US as "exotic Indian tea services" ? I come to SM for resolution of this and all other moral quandaries

WHY HAVE NOT ANYONE THOUGHT OF THIS:

If you have used TP, you would have noticed how much SHIT remains in your ass and comes off to the TP when you first wipe.

That's the SHIT yoru hand makes contact with, and in the case of women, goes off into their various folds and innards if they use water/lota. That's the shit that can go under your fingernails!

Given that there's no direction with water, there's a strong possibility that a bit of shit is still sitting somewhere around after the wild water ride - more so if your ass is hairy.

Unless you wash for a long time, and wife dry with cloth/paper to be discarded, OR take a full shower afterward, there's no real cleaning fully.

Given that desis in desh do not use soap to wash their hands after they use their hand to clean your ass, I wonder how many of you would shake hands with someone who just came from a bathroom.

While in hostel in Chennai (Tamils, common Tamils, being one group with no regard for personal hygeine), we used to have a cook/server in the mess hall who sometimes used to jump into the loo during the lunch session. Seeing him waddle in from that general direction was enough to have me stop my lunch and jump out..

Desi_Truth, I covered all of your points in my posts above. That's why I suggested full shower with removable shower head that can be angeled just right after pooing -- and strong soap.

Why am I enjoying reading other peoples anecdotes and advice about shitting?

What's wrong with me?

Unless you wash for a long time, and wife dry with cloth/paper to be discarded, OR take a full shower afterward, there's no real cleaning fully.

desi_truth I know sometimes wife can be annoying, but that surely is taking spousal abuse to a new level.

manju and qualified_time,

a gay friend of mine pointed out last night that he always has wet wipes in his bathroom for, er, hygienic purposes that had nothing to do with relieving one's nowels... which makes me wonder why my ex-mother & father in law always kept them in their bathroom..

(manj, you'll recognize me from lj, i bet!)

Given that desis in desh do not use soap to wash their hands after they use their hand to clean your ass

Ewwww....that is so not true...

(Tamils, common Tamils, being one group with no regard for personal hygeine)

What is a "common Tamil"...as opposed to a "rare Tamil"? I think that comment could be construed as offensive on several levels.

While in hostel in Chennai (Tamils, common Tamils, being one group with no regard for personal hygeine), we used to have a cook/server in the mess hall who sometimes used to jump into the loo during the lunch session. Seeing him waddle in from that general direction was enough to have me stop my lunch and jump out..

Next boring arangetram I have to sit through this "common Tamil" is going to test the vats of food for taste with his left index finger. More payasam for me !

Why am I enjoying reading other peoples anecdotes and advice about shitting?

What's wrong with me?

You're OK man. This is a legitimate area of human inquiry.If I ever become rich I am going to fund the Louiecypher Chair for the Anthropology of Pooping at "Haavad".

slantedtruth

(manj, you'll recognize me from lj, i bet!)

hmmm? not sure. if by lj you mean live journal...never been on the site.

Many of you need to immediately attend the next session at your local Germophobics Anon. See you there!

I am an ABD, moved here when I was 8 and visit India every 2-3 years once. I have always used water just because I find it much cleanlier. I try not to take a shit when away from the house but I lived in the dorms for a whole year during college and I managed to get by with 2 bottles of water. Its all about technique. I pour the water from the front rather than from the back which eliminates any splashes/uncontrolled flow problems. Its quite clean, and I leave no evidence of water ever being used. A wipe down with TP after washing takes care of the wet ass problem. To avoid getting anything underneath the finger nails, use the kneel of your palm. Never scrub/scratch with your fingers (amateur's mistake). Soap is a must when washing your hands afterwards. A water bottle is generally better at controlling flow than a traditional lota/small jug. If you are lucky enough to have a toilet right beside the tub, then by all means reach over and refill the bottle.

Incidentally, if your shit is runny enough, no amount of toilet paper will prevent it (or at least the smell) from sticking to your fingers whereas water will wash it all away.

Given that desis in desh do not use soap to wash their hands after they use their hand to clean your ass

I would say a greater percentage of desis than non-desis use soap/wash hands in general after using the bathroom. I don't know where you're getting this expert conclusion from.

Ok, I'm a tamil. Tamils were raised to respect paper because you get education through paper and all legal documents are of paper, if my foot accidentally touches a paper, I must touch the paper with my hands and then touch my eyes much like I am praying / being blessed. So we are not supposed to use paper to wipe our ass because it is disrespectful to the paper..

I am a Kannadiga and was raised this way as well but I guess we never equated TP as being regular paper. But I always try and avoid stepping on paper, books, etc.

On visits to India, I drink only bottled/aquaguard water. I generally don't have any problems with getting sick/diseases etc. I don't really bother avoiding chutney because the amount of salt in it is likely to kill most bacteria. In Bangalore, there is now a new chain of fruit juice stands (Ganesh?) and they use Aquaguard when making fresh fruit juices. I drink those all the time, and have no problems. Similarly, Chalukya and a couple other places have aquaguard installed and serve chaat dishes, etc. As long as you are careful, you don't have to deny yourself anything to be safe.

Another thought-- lotas generally accompany squat loos which make for a cleaner evacuation in the first place, so there's probably less poo to clean off. I mean, most mammals squat and they don't use anything at all, as in how often have you seen a dog or cat that needed a wet wipe? In any event, as humans, why not have it both ways? I'm in favor of wet tp (flushable), and by all means a shower for complete desi state of ablution -- but not without first exhausting the capabilities of wet tp.

a gay friend of mine pointed out last night that he always has wet wipes in his bathroom for, er, hygienic purposes that had nothing to do with relieving one's nowels... which makes me wonder why my ex-mother & father in law always kept them in their bathroom..

A squeeky clean booty is a must for sexually active people of both hetero and homo inclinations.

Just toilet paper will not do.

I mean, most mammals squat and they don't use anything at all, as in how often have you seen a dog or cat that needed a wet wipe?

I live with three cats, and... well, it happens. And we've also probably all seen the busy little kitty using her tongue to clean that particular orifice.

Growing up with dogs, it was even worse. We had an American Eskimo with lots of long, fuzzy hair. Just imagine.