March 29, 2007
A Rather Cheery Article in the NYT on the Decline of Sikh TurbansReligion
The Sikh community has survived wars with the Mughals and then the British, the terrible bloodbath of the Partition, and then 1984 and its aftermath.
But according to a recent New York Times article, what is really weakening the defining symbol of Sikh community in India is just… well, laziness:
Like many young Sikhs, he found the turban a bother. It got in the way when he took judo classes. Washing his long hair was time-consuming, as was the morning ritual of winding seven yards of cloth around his head. It was hot and uncomfortable. (link)
And:
The dwindling numbers of turban wearers reflects less a loss of spirituality than encroaching Westernization and the accelerating pace of Indian life, Jaswinder Singh said.
He puts the start of rapid decline at the mid-1990s, as India began liberalizing its economy, more people began traveling abroad and satellite television arrived in the villages of Punjab. Working mothers are too rushed to help their sons master the skill of wrapping a turban, he said, and increasingly they just shrug and let them cut their hair.
“Everyone is working harder to buy themselves bigger cars,” he said. “They don’t have time to teach their children about the Sikh heroes. Boys take film stars as their idols instead.” (link)
Anecdotally, talking to cousins and other relatives, I’ve had the same impression: young Sikhs in India see the turban and beard as 1) hot and 2) unfashionable. It’s also interesting in this passage that busy working mothers are cited as part of the problem. (Quick poll for the Sikhs reading this: who taught you how to tie your pagri? Many Sikh men I know were taught by women in their families.)
Though she does have quotes from people who are unhappy about the phenomenon, I must confess that on an emotional level I do find Amelia Gentleman’s article a shade too cheery considering how much anxiety this trend causes amongst traditional Sikhs. Indeed, as the defining symbol of the Sikh tradition declines, it’s hard not to think of the core of the religion as declining as well.
Oddly, one of the factors named here — India’s hot climate — is less of a factor in places like the U.S., the U.K., and Canada.
amardeep on March 29, 2007 11:06 AM in Religion · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Amardeep, I am surprised she didn't interview some prominent Sikhs in the City, such as Waris Ahluwalia (an actor/fashion designer) or others in NYC, who sport it proudly on screen and off. Or how about an everyday cabbie. Surely, they too, must endure the vanities of tying one. I'd think living here, the sikhs would be inclined to employ the laze factor. And, how many women swooned over Naveen Andrews unraveling his lustrous locks in The English Patient.
Very interesting article, and Mr. Jaswinder Singh sounds like a classic old-school uncle type, harumphing away about Busy Working Mothers and kids these days who can only think of a bigger car ("working mothers" seem to be responsible for most of the world's problems, per conservatives, at a recent conference in Qatar there was concern about how kids weren't learning "good" Arabic because Working Mothers left them with the Foreign Help, never mind that the employment rate for women is relatively low). I'm surprised that Punjabi ingenuity hasn't come up with a ready-to-wear turban that you just plop on over your patka, maybe with a lycra-cap base or something.
I think the problem is that many youngsters see a pagdi-wearing man and one with a beard as fairly removed from the ideal for attractiveness, the cinema-ka-hero, and you do hear women joke about the "smelly hair," which would wound the vanity of your average teenager, I imagine. Facial hair in general is going out of fashion.
Verrrrrry different culture/religion/situation, but I'm wondering if one can draw an analogy with Orthodox/Conservative/Reformed Jews. There are the Orthodox/Hasidim who cling to certain rules of dress (not mixing fibers), men "not cutting the corners of their hair" (or something like that), married women covering their hair, etc.... which obviously Reformed Jews do not cling to. There have been great schisms in the Jewish community about this, and I'm sure a lot of the Orthodox are not happy about these traditions falling away, and perhaps they don't even consider their Reformed brethren to be true Jews (this is conjecture, I am not writing this as fact...). However, I'm sure if one talks to Reformed Jews (which I'm sure comprise the majority in the world), they would bristle if the question of their "Jewishness" was brought up based on their adherence to "Talmudic law" regarding dress, hair, etc. Food for thought. This NYT article was definitely interesting.
If a Sikh can only be defined by whether or not he wears a turban then the Sikh population of the UK is only half the official number. It comes down to how Sikhs define what a Sikh is themselves. My non keshdari Sikh friends identify strongly as Sikhs, with Sikh history and culture, go to Gurdwara, revere the Gurus and so on. I guess they don't feel ready to make the commiment to the outward symbol yet but when they do they will.
I completely agree with the laziness/comfort argument given in the article from my first hand experience in Punjab. In my High school class of 60+ students in rural Punjab there was a 50% split of turbaned and non-turbaned sikh students in early 1990's. The major reason for students to get their hair cut was either "girls don't like turbans" or too much hassle.
I was one of the very few students in college who tied a turban and had long beard. Majority were either without turban and beard or tied a turban but trimmed their beards. Major reason for trimming beard or both "hair and beard" in college was again girls and convenience. Among the turbaned majority were doing it for family pressure and given their own free will they would happily do without the turban.
As an aside even though was less religious than some of my shaven-Sikh friends I was always considered more religious and I was expected to act/behave differently than those with their hair cut.
In my village majority of youth in the age group 14-25 have their hair cut. At a wedding my grand mother (who is very religious) commented "Hun ta aa ghonne monney juaak vi sohne lagg de aa" (Nowadays even kids with short hair look cute), that because there are so many of them.
Incidentally as a Sikh I don't see a problem this. I see turban as a political symbol for freedom/right of self expression rather than a spiritual thing. In present day India turban as a political symbol doesn't seem to be that important for youth, whereas career and material success are, and having or not having a turban is probably insignificant in that pursuit.
i thought of a jewish analogy as well, but
However, I'm sure if one talks to Reformed Jews (which I'm sure comprise the majority in the world)
no. reform is a plural majority in the USA (just surpassed conservative), the numbers i see are usually in the 35-45% range depending on how you define it (a higher % of reform jews are not members of temples, etc.). but in the rest of the world (including israel) it has minimal presence (i think in england and oz it is called 'liberal'). in much of the diaspora 'orthodox' judaism is normative judaism qua judaism. if you don't want to practice halakah in all its details then you are simply a secular or cultural jew. but during high holidays secular jews in places like montreal will still tend to attend what we in the USA would call orthodox synagogues since that is the only game in town. in israel i think the english speakers will use terms like 'religious' and 'non-religious,' where 'religious' is synonymous with orthodox.
When I went to Amritsar last year, they had a Mr. Sikh pageant. I remember asking my cousin about it who said that Sikh groups in the city were trying to promote the preservation of the turban and sikh values through the contest. I thought it was an interesting way to help people relate to their turbans as the mainstream and as handsome. There were some serious hotties on the billboard they showed.
The Sikh community has survived wars with the Mughals and then the British, the terrible bloodbath of the Partition, and then 1984 and its aftermath.
interesting point. irving kristol i believe has stated that a 'little anti-semitism' is good for the jews. so it doesn't surprise me that sikhs held to their traditions which marked them out during some periods of duress. rather, i think that there a median level of social tension which maintains the perpetuation of cultural traditions which 'mark' a group out. when jews were no longer under moderate and persistant discrimination, like their slow but eventual emancipation in europe in the 19th century, they quickly started defecting from judaism. the reform movement began in germany as a way for jews to cling to their religion while at the same time participating in the gentile culture. in the 1950s jewish intermarriage rates were around 10%, but today they are nearing 50%, and are particularly high in reform congregations.
There are lots of Sikh hotties, definitely. I wonder at what point the idea that turbans and a beard aren't attractive to women took hold. Certainly a generation or so ago Sikh girls would have grown up with men around them who did have the kesh and beard, and would have expected to marry someone who did. I'm sure urbanisation, films and TV and a greater choice in marriage partners have contributed to this anxiety among Sikh men about their attractiveness with turban.
Amardeep
Can you envisage a revivalist movement that pits keshdari Sikhs against mona Sikhs in Punjab and the diaspora? Something that feeds into Sikh nationalism at the same time?
That's a common misconception, that Reform jews must be "less religious". It's not really true at all. Perhaps they are considered less jewish by strict Orthodox jews, but they consider themselves very religious, and are often more so than some Conservative jews. Reform does not equate to secular. Things are different in Israel, where many Jews are not religious. As one comedian said, "I moved to Israel so I wouldn't have to be Jewish".
In Judaism, like many religions, there is a lot of room for self-definition since there is a tradition of theological discussion. The rules of keeping kosher, for example, are not hard and fast. Everyone does it a little differently.
And what about Naveen Andrews' hair back in the day?
Anyone else notice this gem in the article:
I've never heard of anyone using male beauty pageants to help boys feel better about themselves. Don't mean to be disrespectful, I just thought that was too funny.I mean, I draw the line at cutting the keshdari right off.
There are well-tied turbans, and poorly-tied ones, and there is a difference. It's a learned skill, and you have to promote the learning of it. Turbans in the Sikh context are not, of course, a mere sartorial affectation, but good grooming and a well-tied turban are both spiritually and secularly valued in the socio-cultural milieu.
The decline in turban tying is also related to a general decline in male headgear, across cultures.
What % of sikhs in the west[Canada/USA/UK] wear turbans. Is it around 15-20% or is that number too low.
In my hometown where I grow up in western canada, of the 10 sikh families, only 1 of the 10 men had a turban.
My family in California on my mom side, 3 of my 5 uncles have turbans, but they are all over 65. My 10 male cousins and my 2 female cousins husbands are all between the age of 27-42. Not one of them wear's a turban, and 9 of the 12 were born in India.
Is this same in other sikh families in the west.
Naina, in the Sikh context, this isn't that surprising. Male vanity in punjab has a lot to do with appearence. Upturning your mustache and having a nicely tied turban, looking "smart" has been seen as a source of pride for, probably generations. Its one of those interesting moments when "what is old is new again"
I think the trend is definately multi-factorial, and has do to with many issues, including urbanization, repression, modernity, immigration, religion, what is going on with social-networks, ect
I would also not discount such simple factors as that most of the kids doing it appear to be in their teens, and at that age, popular culture is (probably too) high a factor in life-decisions. Cutting your hair is probably the type of thing, once you do it, its hard to reverse the decision, and maybe at the age of 16-18, someone does it for different reasons than they might at 30-40. Who knows?
This whole discussion can go quite deep and wide in terms of the various factors at play. "Working mothers" is probably by itself quite far down the list and not a very insightful answer
Most young Sikh guys (in Canada) usually sport low fades these days...
In punjabi culture, for boys considered "gabaroo" (hale and hearty I guess) its both a personal source of pride and a community source of pride to show off one's "smart" looks, so I would say that a "pageant" like this is just a slight variation on past cultural practices and not really anamalous or out-of-place
yeah, those two phenonena are probably miles apart in terms of source, ramification, and the dynamics at play
It makes complete sense that they'd try a pageant to compete with the very TV-centric dominant definition of good looks, given that one of the reasons young Sikhs are cutting their hair is that it's considered less attractive or "modern." Of course, pageants probably won't cancel out the effects of other cultural and media messages about male attractiveness.
Totally superfical, but still feel the need to say this -
I've never dated a Sikh with a turban, but I personally find it hot. I grew up in the United States and am from the South in India, so it's not like I was used to seeing men in turbans.
I think I find it hot b/c 1) it's symbolic to me of someone being able to be brave enough not to fit the norm b/c he wants to stay true to his convictions (that is, those Sikhs who I see wear turbans in the U.S. and 2) Maybe many of the Sikh-American men I've seen have just been what I would consider handsome.
All this lament of "saving" day-to-day aspects of a culture is eerily similiar to Shashi Tharoor's views on Saris.
It's ok if cultures evolve with time, as long as the underlying philosophy is retained through generations. I hasten to add that there also seems to be a certain degree of correlation between giving up one's culture (dress/language/food etc) and losing underlying values (reverence to elders, work ethic etc). As in everything else, balance is of paramount importance.
M. Nam
I'll echo that! I was definitely more attracted to sardars for this reason. They just exude a certain confidence and degree of bravery that I don't see in other men. Of course, I'm referring to those men who actually want to be sardars and are not just keeping their hair for their mommies.
I heart my turban wearing husband =)
But one thing about my original comment is that:
I do realize that just b/c someone wears a turban it doesn't necessarily mean he's strong in his convictions. But when you are just going by first impressions, that's what a turban-wearing Sikh-American seems to me - hence to initial reaction of hotness.
I want to clarify what I said previously, b/c I'm well aware of hypocrisy in ritual w/o meaning. By the way, your a lucky women Sonia!
That Shashi Tharoor is more of an old fart than I had realised. Why should Indian women be expected to maintain sartorial tradition, and what about Indian men? They were the first to switch to Western clothes, weren't they? I think Indian male clothes look wonderful, and they aren't as impractical as saris. And saris have actually made a comeback for evening wear in the last several years, and desis are far from giving up their distinctive clothes, witness the rise of the kurti as the equalizing uniform for Westernized and more conservative young women. Let every man who whines about the tragic decline of the sari wear one for a month and deal with the cleaning and ironing and starching with a full-time job and probably a second shift doing every damn thing in the home too, in addition to the comfort factor. Bah.
I guess I can understand a bit of Tharoor's nostalgia -- there is something about the homogeneity of "modern culture" that is sort of bland in its universality -- but he definitely comes across as old fart in that piece.
I am not a worshipper of Ataturk, but funny that Tharoor talks of how Kemal "banned his menfolk's traditional fez as a symbol of backwardness" without mentioning that he also banned the covering of women (a ban which more or less exists to this day), and women in Turkey (on the whole... I feel the flames coming on...) are in many ways more liberated than in a lot of Muslim countries. I wonder if Tharoor would be the type who would lament the demise of purdah garments...
Let us be not so alarmed about this current trend.
Everything is taking its natural course. What's so shocking?
Most of the lives in Punjab are divided by casteism. Honor killings
(or at least the threat thereof) and female infanticide are commonplace.
Are the youth really to blame? How are the youth to believe that Sikhi
believes in equality when the parents do not see God in everyone?
Faith cannot endure with hypocrisy.
Endeavors like the "Mr. Singh contest" and the emphasis of tying a turban properly
and looking fine in one has its limited use, but the overwhelming need is, in fact,
to teach and live truthfully.
The destiny of Sikhi lies in Sikh character.
Aha! The working mother! She's the one to blame! First she won't wear saris and now she won't help her kids wear turbans.
I sympathize with some of the sentiment of "losing" tradition, but why is it always the working mother who is to blame?
the problem with turkey and iran under the shah was that they displayed the type of behavior they were trying to correct - intolerance- and their secularism became extreme as well in their persecution and discrimination against women who chose to wear conservative islamic wear. this only breeds more resentment and intolerance.
Kusala, Ataturk didn't quite manage to ban the hijab, and there's a huge "covered fashions" business in Turkey these days (not to mention an Islamist movement that's extremely similar to the BJP in its mainstreaming). Only government employees are barred from covering their heads.
Actually, it used to be quite common for South Indian men to wear turbans, and for that matter also elsewhere in Northern, Eastern or Western India - it has declined in the cities, but is still fairly common in rural areas. Most early Indian male immigrants to North America - Sikhs and Hindus especially, also wore turbans. In fact, Sabu, the Kal Penn of the 1930s, also wore it often, on and off-screen!
Here are 3 'South Indian' men - a philosopher-statesman, Vice-President and President (1952-67), a Nobel Laureate and a celebrated centenarian technocrat. The pictures are from the 1960s, but this is what contemporary American Presidents looked like back then, so men don't wear hats any more over here, and Indian men don't wear turbans so much any more. Turban-wearing has faded less-slowly among Sikhs because of the religio-cultural injunctions, but it still needs all the encouragement it can get.
BTW, I'm totally with you on the 'wearing turbans shows strength of conviction' bit!
Hainh..??
When we were school and college, we had quite a few sardar kids, and the general consensus was that if most of them cut their hair and beard, it will be a very very tough for others to keep their girls away from them :).
When we were in school and then college..
If Sanjaya wears a turban next week, problem solved.
In response to Amardeep's original question: I'm a Singaporean Sikh currently in the US for grad school. On my mum's side, we've been in Malaysia/Singapore for 4 generations, and my uncles on both sides and my dad all had turbans. We grew up with long hair, and began tying a turban once we were entered secondary school at 13 (which is grade 7 in the US, I think). Since my dad held two jobs, my mum was the one who taught us how to tie the turban. However, my dad did use to show us and practice with us on some Sundays. Since then, I have learnt various styles from friends and cousins, and have figured out how to tie a few different styles. However, I am the only one from both sides of the family who still wears a turban. All of my other male cousins in India and Malaysia, as well as my brother, have cut off their long hair. In South-East Asia, I think that about 20% of male Sikhs wear turbans. One interesting thing you might see is for some adults who have cut off their hair to still keep a trimmed beard and tie a turban. This has to do with the perceived positive image that a turban brings- a perception which, from the comments above, is widely shared.
I guess this trend is spreading everywhere. The other day in NYC I saw a man toting a turban and suddenly realized I actually hadnt seen one in Manhattan for at least 2 years now!
Was that pure chance?
Or pure choice on Sikh men's part?
I think the trend to cut ones hair among Sikhs differs greatly whether you are on the West Coast or the East Coast of the US. My experience with both coasts has led me to believe that Sikhs on the West Coast are more "Punjabi" and Sikhs on the East Coast are more "Sikh". I met many more young Keshdhari Sikhs on the East Coast than I have on the West.
'HaiR' aS plitical sssteatment. GroW te HHaiiiiR and pROotest the drAFt.
"That Shashi Tharoor is more of an old fart than I had realised. Why should Indian women be expected to maintain sartorial tradition, and what about Indian men? They were the first to switch to Western clothes, weren't they? I think Indian male clothes look wonderful, and they aren't as impractical as saris. And saris have actually made a comeback for evening wear in the last several years, and desis are far from giving up their distinctive clothes, witness the rise of the kurti as the equalizing uniform for Westernized and more conservative young women. Let every man who whines about the tragic decline of the sari wear one for a month and deal with the cleaning and ironing and starching with a full-time job and probably a second shift doing every damn thing in the home too, in addition to the comfort factor. Bah."
I agree, the sari is definitely not going the way of the kimono. Perhaps its becoming somewhat of an ethnic costume, but its still the preferred dress of choice for formal desi events or religious festivals(for those that come from traditional sari wearing regions of the subcontinent). When madrasi brides and grooms start wearing white wedding gowns and tuxes during their muhurthams, I'll concede that maybe there is a problem.
another question: What makes you think the article had a cheery tone to it? I didn't come away with that at all.
another question: What makes you think the article had a cheery tone to it? I didn't come away with that at all.
Amardeep, the author of the post, a keshadhari sikh is being sarcastic.
"Though she does have quotes from people who are unhappy about the phenomenon, I must confess that on an emotional level I do find Amelia Gentleman’s article a shade too cheery considering how much anxiety this trend causes amongst traditional Sikhs. Indeed, as the defining symbol of the Sikh tradition declines, it’s hard not to think of the core of the religion as declining as well."
He's being sarcastic here? I was alluding to this statement, not the title of the post.
Sorry I've been out of the discussion most of the day -- teaching classes, meeting students... etc.
But actually I wasn't being sarcastic with the word "cheery." It might not be quite the right word, but I guess I felt the article had a bit of a neutral, "hey, check out this interesting trend" angle to it that runs up against the strong emotional response many people within the community have about this. To be fair, she does give a fair amount of air time to some folks in Punjab who are troubled by it.
The other thing I wanted to say is this -- strangely, I kind of agree with MoorNam, when he said this:
It's ok if cultures evolve with time, as long as the underlying philosophy is retained through generations. I hasten to add that there also seems to be a certain degree of correlation between giving up one's culture (dress/language/food etc) and losing underlying values (reverence to elders, work ethic etc). As in everything else, balance is of paramount importance.
I don't know about cheery, but the author definitely does make light of the situation. Just the title of the article gets to me: "Young Sikh Men Get Haircuts, Annoying Their Elders"
Annoying their elders? Seriously? This issue has much larger ramifications than making some old people uncomfortable.
It could be that some Sikh men are opting not to wear turbans because of the profiliing they receive at airports and fear of racial attacks after 9/11.
In the years since 9/11, granted I don't travel too much, in three separate instances I have seen Sikh men "randomly" stopped at the security checkpoint and all of their belongings rifled through.
BadIndianGirl, yes, but this is actually in India, where there isn't that confusion.
And actually, even in the U.S. most Sikhs I know don't mind the whole airport thing that much, especially since they've done away with the last minute "random" gate searches for the most part. The guys who have it much harder are the ones in the service industries -- running convenience stores, gas stations, driving taxis. It's very difficult to deal with the kind of hostility those guys encounter on a daily basis.
Amardeep. Right, this was in India.
Guess I should pay more attention and focus on work or reading SM, not both ;-)
Naina wrote:
To promote the turban as a fashion item, Sikh leaders have also started holding Mr. Singh International pageants. Contestants are judged by looks, moral character, personality, knowledge of Sikh history and principles, and turban tying skills.
I've never heard of anyone using male beauty pageants to help boys feel better about themselves. Don't mean to be disrespectful, I just thought that was too funny.
Actually, there's a lot of fascinating academic literature out there about the varying types of 'beauty pageants', all centering on the idea that pageants are about selecting a person who is the best embodiment of the values of the community/group who holds it; it seems that this is true regardless of the type of pageant (from Texan "rattlesnake queens" to trans/gay (bantut) competitons in the Philippines). I agree that it is interesting to see men in pageants as a gender role reversal, but the trends and idiosyncracies are really cool to read about.
If you're interested, there's a great edited volume from just a couple of years ago called Beauty Queens on the Global Stage (citation below), and, of course there has been a TON written from a desi angle re: miss worlds and miss universes. If you're interested, I can send you some articles.
Here's the book:
Cohen, Colleen Ballerino, Richard Wilk, and Beverly Stoeltje. Eds. 1996. Beauty Queens On the Global Stage: Gender, Contests and Power. New York: Routledge. ISBN: 0415911532
so sorry, i did the block quote wrong (nested tags).
Yes, but the hostility is based on perception of difference - whether they fixate on the beard and turban or the skin color, it's still there. At least by adopting a visible marker of difference voluntarily, one provides oneself a spiritual-psychological boost that is reinforced daily, everytime one ties one's dastar. Any personal experiences on this you would care to share, Amardeep?
That's a common misconception, that Reform jews must be "less religious".
are you capable of reading what other people write? yes, reform judaism is a vibrant, and even dominant, branch of religious judaism in the USA. but in most of the rest of the world it is a non-presence. the 'secular' jews in israel are not reform, they don't consider reform judaism a religious option for them (in part because the orthodox rabbinate has blocked legitimization of reform and conservative religiosity). reform judaism started in germany, and spread to the USA. for obvious reasons it isn't a strong presence in germany, so it is in the US that it is a viable option. in most of the rest of the diaspora religious expression took the expression we would term 'orthodox' (though the mitnagdim, hasidim, sephardic and mizrachi jewish traditions would all emphasize their differences) in the USA. non-orthodox jews were avowedly secular, though they might have a strong jewish cultural identity. the reform movement in the USA rejected the idea of jewish nationhood in the 19th century (though they went back to it in the 20th) explicitly because they wanted to turn judaism into just a religion (confession or denomination). many atheist or non-religious jews reject reformism explicitly because it does not resonate with their sense of what religious judaism is about (more so outside the USA where reform is thin on the ground).
It's ok if cultures evolve with time, as long as the underlying philosophy is retained through generations. I hasten to add that there also seems to be a certain degree of correlation between giving up one's culture (dress/language/food etc) and losing underlying values (reverence to elders, work ethic etc).
sure, about values, but those values are not the necessary ones either. that is, it seems pretty obvious that if you "look like" the mainstream society you'll assimilate their values to a greater extent. in a place like india i doubt it would be as much of an issue re: reverence to elders, work ethic, etc., cuz i doubt that hindu punjabis have different values....
Don't worry Razib. I will never again respond to anything you post because you get so snarky any time I post anything that disagrees with you. There are plenty of people on this site I have disagreed with but we've managed to argue without being rude. I can thing of plenty of snarky comebacks myself, but I will refrain. You can continue to be an authority on Judaism, or anything else, with no one to contest you.
There are definitely women who identify as being Sikhs who don't find the turban and beard attractive, but there are also plenty who do. It did bother me when I heard a couple of single girls in my family asked if they wanted a guy with or without a turban and beard, and one of my cousins replied, "No no - girls these days don't want that..."
As far as Non-Sikh women, a lot of my sardar friends get lots of love from plenty of non-Sikh women. Some of these men may just not realize that it's not the turban that's keeping the ladies away - it's them. But then, in India, when the kids are going through this spouse-finding process, they're also taught that the main focus is on their appearance and their resume. Moms don't tell their sons, "Beta, you need to work on your swagger to find a quality mate." So it may just be that their not taught to have any game, or don't learn any from anywhere else, and when they don't get what they consider to be a favorable response from women, they figure it's the turban. That sucks.
And sidenote: Poorly tied turbans are definitely a turn off (at least for me). A man's turban says a lot about him. (I have my theories.)
I know I rambled a bit. Sorry.
While sheer laziness is probably a partial contributing factor to this trend, I'm pretty sure its not the main reason most keshdari youth cut their locks. The lazy ones tend to keep the pugh, but drop the beard. As has been said above, I think much of this has to do with the perception of what the women-folk find attractive, and to an extent, I think they have a point.
Here in the west tho, I really think the increasing influence of militant-secularism also has had an impact. Religion just isn't cool right now, and outward symbols of faith are generally viewed (at least initially) with suspicion/apprehension. We saw this explicitly with the school ban in France, and recently here in the UK with the Muslim veil/head scarf furore.
For the poll: While my mum took care of our hair when young, it was always my dad who firstly taught us how to tie a patka properly, and then a full turban. I still regularly get chided by my dad when my pugh is anything less than perfect in his eyes, while my mum always thinks it is perfect - even when it clearly isn't... For the record, both have busy career schedules.
The common understanding of "secular" is "less religious", dictionaries notwithstanding.
Apart from the turban issue (which I would say boils down to men responding to female preference), the satellite television arrival in villages will be the end of the Punjabi language. The villages are the last stronghold of well-spoken Punjabi. Unfortunately Punjabi is a language which is not adequately taught in schools. The English-medium schools give it very short shrift, and the Punjabi-medium goverment schools suck. Due to the language politics of Punjab, most Hindus do not go to Punjabi-medium schools anyway, opting for Hindi-medium if they can't afford English. Compounding this is the fact that Hindi and Punjabi are fairly similar in many respects, and therefore people (the younger generation raised on cable tv) will gradually use more and more Hindi words in their Punjabi without even fully realising it. You can see this in Pakistan already, where 60 years of Urdu and English have already devastated Punjabi.
I believe you're right Amitabh. Punjabi, among many other languages through out the world, is dying out. I noticed this with my cousins' children as well. They go to private schools (english-medium, I believe) although they speak Punjabi, they aren't very good at writing/reading it. They know how to write/read (and speak) English and Hindi, but not so much Punjabi. And don't get me started on those families who are living outside of Punjab in cities like Bombay/Nagpur/Surat, their kids' Punjabi skills are worse than any ABCD's (which is probally because it would be too hard for them to balance punjabi/english/other indian language).
When I visited India, I could hardly understand what my cousins were saying. When we tried to converse in Punjabi, they mixed some Hindi into it. And since I don't understadn Hindi, I was very lost most of the time.
If wanting to be attractive to girls is a motivator in Sikh men forgoing the pagh, then the situation is only going to get worse. Punjab has the lowest ratio of girls to boys in all of India, especially in the lower age groups. That means that men are going to have a hard time finding brides, something which has already begun, as men are starting to "buy" brides from other parts of India. It certainly doesn't help that so many Punjabi men from the West keep flocking to India to marry the fewer and fewer girls that are there because these men are insecure about their masculinity and want a "homely" bride who they can control and only give as much freedom as they're comfortable with. Anyway, I digress. But yea, men are having to take extra steps now to live up to the Bollywood beauty standards if they want to nab a gal.
Sonia you made a very good point in your last post about the low birth rate in Punjab for females. Also you were dead on about insecure punjabi men in the west who go back to finding a bride they can control and limit there a freedom. Sonia I don't know if you aware of this, but the practice of female fetus being aborted is now problem in some western punjabi communities.
The funny thing is that in the past I have been criticized for making these same points in other posts.
All of this wont matter in 5 thousand years, when everyone start's to worship GLANG, peace be upon it.
Sikhism is a religion with few answer's. Ask 10 Sikh's about what happen's to your soul when you die and you will get 10 different answer's. Ask about eating meat, you get 10 different answer's. Ask about how you are supposed to eat in a Gurdwara and you will get 10 different answer's. Ask about wedding ritual's and ....you get the picture.
So it is not a simple religion. So, if you find yourself belonging to a religion with no clear answer's on basically anything then you will make up your own rules and hence the whole "Hair is not important, it is what's in your heart", philosophy and that is a hell of alot easier then the alternative way to express your faith.
Why is that a bad thing? Better a religion that contains room for personal interpretation than one that claims to know everything, is the only one true faith, and imagines it is superior to all other faiths.
I didnt mean that it was a bad thing. I am just saying that a religion with no clear cut answers is going to have a hell of alot more people taking the easy way of interpreting it then the other way around.
It's why you have 20 thousand people watching 500 people run a marathon and not the other way around.
I'm not too happy with the characterisation of Sikhs with cut hair as lazy (or cursed with lazy mothers, God forbid). It's just as easy to read cut hair as indicating that individuals simply have other priorities as it is to assume those same people are lazy. Not everyone wants to make declaring their religious identity to the world their top priority. I'm pretty horrified by the anti-working-mother tone of the article too, and the idiot whose quote seems to make out that women work so their families can have bigger cars. WTF? If I have kids, there's no way I'm going to comb their hair for 15 years because I a) have other priorities, b) don't want to be identified by my religion every time I leave the house (and neither does my short-haired dad, for whom it would be more of an issue, nor do I want my kids to elevate their religious identity over all others), and c) work, without guilt, because I want to and have socially meaningful work to do, not for a bigger car. FFS, I have never felt apologetic for cutting my hair, and Jaswinder Singh's shitty, finger-pointing moralism isn't going to make me.
Amardeep's linked article mentions the singer Pammi Bai, who released a song recently to promote the turban. Here is the song for anyone interested in hearing it...it starts about 35 seconds into the clip. Unfortunately the video is unwatchable...it's in avi format, whatever that means. The song apparently is a big hit; I can vouch that it was on TV a lot when I was in India last month.
Clueless, yes I'm well aware of the problem in the West as well, and my friend who is writing her master's thesis on fetal sex selection among South Asians in the West says she thinks the situation is worse here because no one talks about it since the community is rather small in proportion to the whole population. I can't tell you how many families I've seen here (in California) with like four girls and then their youngest child is a boy. The sex ratio issue may not be a direct cause of men in Punjab abandoning the turban, but it is causing men to have to be more competitive in all areas including looks. I personally think turbans are fucking sexy!
Those families should be lauded...because if they had four girls that means they DIDN'T terminate the female pregnancies, and opted to have the girls. That's not sex selection. And I don't think you can blame them for continuing to try until they had a boy. Most desis want at least one son. I often see desi families with three daughters and no sons. What that means is they tried three times and finally gave up. And again, I laud them for NOT doing sex selection too.
There are families that had 3 daughters, but may had another couple of pregnancies with female fetus which they aborted until they had there "precious jatt" son.
Here in Vancouver that female abortion problem in the punjabi community is a thing every one know abouts, but no one wants to talk about. I have friends in the medical field who were shocked at that number of married punjabi women getting abortions cause they were pregant with a girl.
Turban, keeping long uncut hair are issues that need to be indentified very seriously among Sikhs. Wearing a turban is a burden as long as one cannot be connected to the core as to "why" wear a turban. If one creates a bond with the Guru,then wearing a turban is a joy!!. I know a Sikh guy told me that he feels confident as he had cut his hair and trimmed his beard and feel more accpeted by his peers(other races). But it's funny that he never asked his peers whether did they ever not accepted him when he had a turban. So it is perceived that turban and uncut hair is "cool" and "good looking", "more pretty", "guys want such gals". So Sikh leaders around the world must be "very Loud" about turban and uncut hair, not just whisper and let it off so easily.pritam,singapore.
From a religious point of view, I think its quite hard to get a large percentage of people who can wear dastaar in the spirit it was intended. if you look at the time of the ghulugharas, that was a time when the sikh community was exceedingly small, but the people who wore dastaar, they knew why they wore it
That Pummy Bai youtube video didn't work, but here is a similiar one,
Honestly, there should be no reason why a daughter is not as celebrated as a son. I am sure it does not feel to punjabi women who look at how happy everyone is when a boy is born versus a girl. Its actually silly and not logical
Amitabh, yes they should be lauded for not opting for sex selection, but at the same time it disheartens me that their daughters weren't good enough for them and that they took the financial leap of trying and trying until they had a boy. Why is having a boy THAT important to them? They may have valued their daughters enough not to abort them, but they obviously don't value them as much as they would a son, because if they did they would have been happy that they were blessed with a wonderful daughter.
Yep, girls are almost always the number one reason. It is a fair concern though.
But if you compare the loss of tradition and cultural values among communities in India as a whole, I don't think the Punjabi, or even specifically the Sikh community, is doing that bad. Part of the reason is that Punjabi is very dominant in the popular culture of modern India. It is fairly represented in Bollywood and Indipop. You don't have to be embarassed to adhere to your Sikh and/or Punjabi identity (as for example, I as an Oriya growing up in Delhi as a teenager somewhat had to). In fact, most Sikhs and Punjabis tend to be very assertive of it. Wearing a turban is not nearly as embarassing as being from a poor state, or having a long South Indian name in North India.
This issue is much more prominant among other cultures in India - like the decline of Urdu among the remnant (though sizeable) Muslim community in India.
Sonia a boy is a must in the punjabi culture. I have learned the hard way. I have one child who is a girl. Yet all the time I hear from punjabi people telling me that I need to have a son. One time a person I did not know that well to me that he was gonna pray at the local sikh temple for me to have a son.
When I tell people that I don't need to have a son, they are very surprised when I say that.
One reason that even in the west punjabi want to have sons, is cause most who come to the west keep there culture and values from the homeland. Sexism is a major problem, yet very few men in our community speak out about it. I have spoken out about it, and when I do people tell me I'm too western.
Sonia, it's not that different for Punjabi men within India either, IME, comparing my family and particularly relatives who live in the north even with other desi men, I'm always struck by the sense of entitlement, the way they are brought up to be helpless little princes, and yet respected for throwing their weight around, and no matter how well-educated or elite they are, still want a wife they can keep "in her place"...sad but true, particularly in cities in Punjab. I really hope things are changing.
The Punjabi language is probably getting more mixed with Hindi but certainly not dying out in cities like Chandigarh or even Delhi. It's never been terribly "pure" anyway, has tons of Arabic and Persian words, and will keep evolving. There are lots of Punjabi channels on satellite TV these days, whether music,films or news, and you could even argue there's more Punjabi media options now than in the days of DD with its two channels.
My friend cut his hair when he was 19, mainly to appear more attractive. Now, 10 years on, he has decided to grow it back. He started feeling alienated from his own religion in the absence of these outward symbols of sikhism.
He looks rather funny now, with a scratchy beard and a "hollow" pagri.
Those families should be lauded...because if they had four girls that means they DIDN'T terminate the female pregnancies, and opted to have the girls.
Whats wrong with terminating female pregnancies in California? They dont have the Punjab problem.
Hmm, as opposed to what - Hinduism? Catholicism? Where there is only one answer? Come on now - you can do better than that reasoning.
You were criticized not for what you said, but for the fact that it was the only thing you talked about and repeatedly posted (which you continue to do) - there are no turbaned men in canada or california, all the sikh people in canada abort their female children, etc etc. By now I hope you realize that there is a whole Sikh community in Canada and in California outside of yours where men DO keep their hair, and Sikh women marry them, and they go on to have beautiful Sikh girls that they love. I can introduce you to many if you would please just accept that you do NOT know all Sikhs in Canada and California.
I agree for the most part - it's pretty pathetic when you see four daughters and a son - especially ironic when the children are all grown up and it's the daughters who are caring for the parents instead of the one precious son they tried so hard for.
But the idea of wanting a boy can not just be chalked up to old-fashioned thinking. I want a daughter and my husband wants a son (for purely selfish purposes - he wants a football player and I want to buy a lot of cute dresses and hair clips). I don't think that means we would value either one less than the other. But I don't think me wanting to try for (or adopt) a boy if I have two girls, or vice versa, is a bad thing.
The last time I was in Delhi, a group of women surrounded our van and proceeded to "bless" my sister-in-law by telling her she would have a son (in exchange for giving them money, of course). The look on their faces when my sister-in-law said she wanted a daughter was SO priceless. I wish I had taken a picture.
Yes...it's not easy to faze those people...impressive.
The video doesn't work (#68) but you should be able to listen to the song.
OK, sorry for commenting so much...Sahej, in the video you mentioned, that is one GORGEOUS woman (the one who is praying and then gives the little boy parsaad).
The mindset is there - it exists, and we can't deny it or just criticize it. We have to work, instead, to change the mindset and the trend. I'm the oldest grandchild on my father's side, and I was told that when I was born, my dadi (grandmother) had tears in her eyes - she had hoped for and been expecting my mother to have a boy. It was hard for me to hear, especially because my entire life, having the relationship I've had and still have with my dadi, I couldn't possibly imagine it. I do realize that things were different then - but whether I knew it or not, I was the one who made her happy to have a granddaughter. Gotta teach them.
I was at my uncle's brother's wedding in Ludhiana, Punjab. My uncle and aunt have 3 intelligent, athletic, beautiful girls. The hijray came around the wedding house and were asking him how many kids he had (so they could offer him blessings for sons) - he said he was happy with his 3 girls and couldn't ask for anything more. Everyone was like "Eh?? But of course you still want a son, though, right??" They just didn't understand why. It made me feel good to see him be proud of his girls and not succumb to peer pressure and let them make him feel like something was lacking because out of his 3 children he didn't have a boy.
Don't get me wrong - boys are great. I love them. But when I have children, I'll have what I'm meant to have, and I'll be happy with that.
Sonia I never said that there are no sikh men that don't wear turbans. My father-in-law and 3 of my 5 uncles in California have turbans. What I was trying to say was that % of sikh men who are under 50 that wear turbans is around 15-20%. Vancouver has the biggest sikh population in Canada is where I live. And the bay area and central California which has the biggest sikh population in the United States, is where I have alot of family, and a place where I have spent alot of time.
Also other then right wing sikh's, I have not criticized sikhism at all. My criticism has been about certain parts of punjabi culture that I find very sexist.
Also before my daughter was born, I told everyone that I wanted to have girl. Yet I lost time how many people in punjabi community said that they hope I have a son.
Clueless wrote:
>>My criticism has been about certain parts of punjabi culture that I find very sexist.
My criticism has always been about the culture of individuals who judge and hand out opinions on others' private behaviour which does not violate anyone's rights, and their tendency to give out unsolicited advice to change the subject's private behaviour.
Whether Sikh boys want to cut their hair or Indian women choose other attire over sarees or whether they choose to marry trees or abort female fetuses or give/take dowry: The underlying issue is the same. It's their private behaviour and neither the Sikh elders nor Tharoor nor anyone else should be judging or commenting on their actions. It's the culture of not minding one's own business that I find disconcerting, because sooner or later, if these busybodies get political power they will try to meddle in private affairs of individuals and history has shown that they will use State power to enforce their worldview.
Under no circumstances should the individual be trampled.
M. Nam
M. Nam - is your statement at the end that the individual should not be trampled meant ironically? Does it not occur to you that female foeticide/infanticide and the practice of dowry violates the rights of hundreds and millions of individuals? Do women run off and abort their female foetuses of their own volition, do husbands and "elders" have nothing to do with it? Embededdness in structural bigotry and discrimination make it rather difficult to treat some of the practices you've described above as voluntaristic individual decisions. I can agree with you on some other points, but not these.
SP writes: >>Does it not occur to you that female foeticide/infanticide and the practice of dowry violates the rights of hundreds and millions of individuals?
I'm afraid you have the wrong notion of "rights".
Rights can be conferred only on those who have responsibilities. They are opposite sides of the same coin and go hand in hand.
A fetus does not have rights. Cannot and should not. Since it does not have any responsibilities.
But what about the woman who is coerced to abort the fetus, you ask. And I say, "coerced" is a loaded word. If this means physical force, then there are laws against it. If this means societal pressure, then I would say that a person who is not responsible enough to face societal pressure to carry out one's desires as an individual, then the said person should have to abrogate those related rights.
But what about men who have scrape their lives savings to give dowry, you ask? Same situation. If these men cannot stand up to society and their daughters cannot stand being single, then they have to give up their right to a dowry-free marriage.
There's no free lunch. You cannot get something for nothing.
M. Nam
Now if only all the punjabi hotties also started showing their legs....I was at a desi do at SF and man...sikh kudis have the most amazing legz....endless chocolate..mmmm :-)
Whoa, that is a loaded statement. So are you saying that you have never done anything you don't want to do because of pressure from family/others around you?
Secondly, say this woman doesn't get the abortion as her husband's family wishes and then they throw her out of the house. And then her parents won't take her back into their house because she has "shamed" the family. When faced with those options, what is left for her to do, but get the abortion? Not that I am condoning these forced abortions, but for some women, it is there only option.
>>So are you saying that you have never done anything you don't want to do because of pressure from family/others around you?
I've done plenty of things that I did not want to do for pressure from family etc. And I will continue to do so. But I don't blame them, because at the end of the day, I make the choice. And yes, there are plenty of times that I've weighed pros and cons and gone against them to do what I wanted to do as well. It's a balancing act.
>>this woman doesn't get the abortion as her husband's family wishes and then they throw her out of the house. And then her parents won't take her back into their house because she has "shamed" the family.
It's time for her to make some hard choices. You're saying the glass is half-empty, and here I am thinking the glass is half-full. She's free to do what she wants. It's a big world and with a bit of courage, determination and sheer hard work, most people can fend for themselves.
What do you suggest she do?
M. Nam
I don't see how the solution to son-preference is to have a son so that other Punjabis will leave you alone. I'm glad you have the confidence to tell them that you don't need to have a son, but too many people are afraid to. The solution isn't to succumb to the pressure, but to change the mentality. We can't change the world overnight, but we can change the way WE think. I personally think a fitting response to the Punjabis who pester you about having a son is to tell them to fuck off. I've had fights with my own mother about this when I ask why she is extra congratulatory to a Punjabi couple if they had a son. And incidentally, her own son is pretty much a failure in life and me, her daughter, is the one all her hopes are pinned on.
What's wrong with it is that it represents the devaluing of girls, that's what. That's like asking what's wrong with lynching a Sikh man in 1984 because there were plenty of Sikhs in Punjab already.
Props to Sonia for the stinging comeback ^^
MoorNam, I have heard this statement before, and it does seem to make sense in most cases. However, the statement cannot be applied universally. For instance, babies -- say between the ages of 0-2 -- have no responsibilities. They don't take the trash out, squeal all night and keep the neighbours up, create messes and in general act like hobos. Cute hobos, nonetheless. Getting back to my point, so since babies have no rights according to that doctrine, we should be able to kill them without remorse.
What's wrong with it is that it represents the devaluing of girls, that's what. That's like asking what's wrong with lynching a Sikh man in 1984 because there were plenty of Sikhs in Punjab already.
Thats a rather silly analogy. My point was that in Punjab sex selection of children is a problem as it has lead to female infanticide, large scale abortion of girls (leading to gender imbalance)etc.
However California does not have the above problem and I dont see any problems with some lone Sardar having a preference for a boy or a girl. I dont have a problem with abortion anyway so we might not agree on this.
DEAR GOD! If I wasn't waiting to sober up I'd have a better response, but really dude, WTF?
Are you saying that California (or other places in the West, for that matter) do NOT have a problem with Punjabis aborting female fetuses? Because indeed they do.
DDiA #96: >>since babies have no rights according to that doctrine(of not having responsibilities), we should be able to kill them without remorse.
But babies do have responsibilities, and most(99.99%) of them carry their responsibilities effortlessly. Their responsibility is to do something that even the best movie actors cannot do: Giggle, smile guiltlessly, squeal with pleasure at parents' sight, gaze with deep wonder at the TV remote, etc etc. It's their responsibility to bring out the child in you.
Since the begining of time, man has had the legal right to kill off their baby (until about a century ago). Yet, only a miniscule portion of parents choose to do so (even when there is religious sanction for it).
>>the statement cannot be applied universally.
It can too.
M. Nam
DEAR GOD! If I wasn't waiting to sober up I'd have a better response, but really dude, WTF?
Why is it so hard to understand that some of us dont really care as much as apparently you do about fetuses and are not that bothered by abortion.
Are you saying that California (or other places in the West, for that matter) do NOT have a problem with Punjabis aborting female fetuses? Because indeed they do.
Yes though I am willing to change my opinion if presented with credible evidence which contradicts my opinion.
Sonia is right about California having a gender problem with Punjabi's aborting female fetus. But it is even worse in Canada, especially in the punjabi community in Vancouver.
MoorNam some of these punjabi women have been threatened if they don't abort there female fetus.
Another problem is that alot of women and feminist groups in the west are useless when it comes to issues like this. Due to Polictical Correctness, stupid white guilt and the fear of being called racist they are afraid to speak out about issue like this.