thanks for the pointer to the study!

big criticisms, as they note: low N. that being said, the study is qualitatively informative. let's hope that A+ is maintained along with T&A.

Is it common to draw conclusions about a large group of people based on questions asked to 11 2nd gen and 9 1st gen Indians from one corner of the US? Imagine if the 1 fob out of 9 who reported sexual intercourse had decided to go out on a date instead of trying to get $30 for an hour of probably uncomfortable questioning!! What would that have done to the image of all fobs (they are all virgins!).

I am skeptical of any conclusions whatsoever drawn from such a small and biased sample. Not saying that fobs are as slutty as abcds or less or more---that's a seperate discussion. Only pointing out that this "study" is unlikely to be considered scientific enough for any respectable pblication. In fact a more accurate study could be compiled right here if every commenter answered the few questions talked about there, and abhi compiled the results!

In fact a more accurate study could be compiled right here if every commenter answered the few questions talked about there, and abhi compiled the results!

the last time i mooted the possibility of a survey both abhi & cicatrix stated that that wasn't going to happen here :-) so good luck!

i think the objection to the sample size and skew is very valid. but, in the context of a) anecdotal data b) other studies which suggest cultural convergence, it isn't as suspect. as i've pointed out, a large minority of 1.5 & 2nd gen are outmarrying already (larger % amongst second gen, though in that table the diff. between 1.5 & 2nd is illustrated).

20??? They published a report based on an of 20??? Who does that??? Who pays for that? Can I get a piece?

Shit, we could do our own SM survey here in the comments, and get far larger N. And it's not like they were surveying in Iowa, they were in friggin New York. You spit and you hit more desis then you do in the rest of the nation. Puh-leeez.

It's an undergrad research study of 20 people. Why's it getting this much attention?

i'll step up, i'm in group #3. gen 1.5, not born, but raised.

and we didnt know this already?

Like kunal and taz mentions, I think it would really a great idea to do surveys such as these among the blog audience. How about taking it a step further and having a voting survey box at the right hand side of the site so that maybe every week there can be a poignant and interesting topic about the Indian American culture (which is a fast evolving one). Actually it can also pertain to Indian culture as well. I think this would be very insightful and interesting.
Examples:
What is the furthest you've gone? A)1st base B)2nd C)3rd D)Home Run E)Batted for the other Team F)Struck Out (Maybe translate to Cricket terms for FOBs (Sixer, Golden Duck), Just Kidding!!)
What is your profession? A) doctor B) engineer C) lawyer D) DJ/Rapper E) Getting Degress F)Business (Hotel/Motel/Convenience)
How many Indian movies do you watch per year? A)Never B) 1 C) 5 D)500 or more

Sorry for being stereotypical, I couldn't resist. Anyway with more thought I'm sure you guys can come up with some really thoughtful and useful questionnares. Any takers??

Wow,

As a 1.5 gen who always gets confused for a 2nd gen (totally confused as to how to read that now...), all I have to say is:

mAyB taTZ y Thyr aLwaYz tYPin lIkE ds Al dA fUCkEn tYM??!!

OMG WTF ROFLMAO!

It must be 'cos they're a bunch of horny little bastards.

And maybe perfect internet and text typing is a sign of somethin' else. But I'd better not start that convo, now...

hm...
the difference between the 2 groups was
first generation: born in india
2nd generation: parents born in india..

the people interviewed were between 18-24 years of age..

so you could move her at 1 years of age, and still be 'considered' first generation...which really makes no sense to me.. because by 20 odd years, you've been socialized into the 2nd generation scene.. i think a first generation should've been less than 2 years in america.. thats just me being nitpcky and thinking this research is a load of hogwash..

research sometimes states the obvious..

It's an undergrad research study of 20 people. Why's it getting this much attention?

Cool, this is something I wonder about sometimes w/ regard to my peers.

I wonder who they're having the sex with? Other 2nd gens, or other races?

And I wonder if other sexual practices that are becoming common among teenagers today (e.g. casual hook-ups, girls kissing, etc.) are as common among the desi 2nd-gens.

Other than the small N, there's also the usual problem of whether people feel comfortable talking about their sexual behaviour, underreporting etc etc. I can attest from my years in high school back home that a prissy exterior and taboos about talking about sex were no indicator of the actual amount of activity going on. Similarly I've come across reports of surveys of American college student sexual behaviour that suggest many more of them lose their virginity later than they'd ever admit and there's a lot of brave talk and exaggeration of how much they're getting too.

There's also the question of how long the first-gens have been in the US (takes a little while to adjust to the idea that you don't have to be ashamed of having premarital sex), whether they came from big cities or more liberal families back home, and whether or not they are thinking of marrying a Nice Desi Boy/Girl eventually.

American style dating is cheesy (atleast the way average americans date).. Also sex is boring and it makes you smell..

While there is a distinct possibility that these figures are true, i think its wrong. Once again i'm going to base it on first hand knowledge of pretty much all the 2nd gen desi people i know in college and meet as a promoter in NYC. Most, i do not hesitate in saying this, most guys are probably lying in order to appear "cool" or prevent looking inadequate, etc.

As a promoter in the city i see a multitude of people from the ages of 18-24. I don't do Desi parties or clubs, however after the real hot clubs start to lose their appeal, the doors get easier and typically will allow rich asians in, typically, chinese, and desi kids with style,hot girls and most importantly money. After seeing probably 50-60 odd nights at various venues and with desi kids interacting, there is no way that 45% of these males are having sexual intercourse with anyone besides their hand. For the vast majority of females, it is a possibility, as its easier for a girl to get laid than a guy, i still don't really see it. There are always the token sluts and scumbags for every group.

I really don't know, but my guess would be that IF half the desi guys in NYC were getting laid, perhaps then there wouldn't be such a high number of fights at clubs!

I highly doubt that 50% of desi males in NYC are having interracial sex... maybe sex with other desi's, but not interracial..

If so many of them are having sex then why are so many of them still having arranged marriages ?

And this has something to do with AIDS in India? It looks like their subjects were kids on campus-- puhleeze. Apart from anything else, the kids who are here from India probably have to look out for themselves quite a bit more-- can't afford to screw around.

Lets for a minute forget that this survey can hardly be called a survey due to such a low sampling, and imagine that this was actually the case with a sample of 500 people. As a 1st gen fob, it is easy to attribute the low sexual activity to the following:

1) At least 1/3rd of fobs (in my experience) have 'desi/moral values' which restrict them from activity of this kind - I'd say a good 80% for Fob Females, and about 35% for Fob Males. Yes, this disparity between the sexes is huge.

2) For the 65% of Fob males who do not have any personal moral baggage and who are horny as hell too, their options are extremely limited - Females of other races are way beyond reach. ABCD Females prefer ABCD Males. The Fob male-female ratio is first of all skewed badly, add to that the fact of #1 that only 20% of these fob females would be open to pre-marital sex. Leaves you with just the 1 FOB in the survey who got lucky.

some idiot prof signed off on the survey design.

and this undergrad class project is getting all this attention simply because its about sex.

Yeah...I'm in undergrad and this has me pretty confused...most of the "newly freed" college ABCD girls I know do everything short of sex. In the words of Hetal and Kapila--"every hole but that one! ROFL!" I can't believe the hype these crappy studies get. I think there's another study out showing there's a reduction in interracial marriages since the immigrant population in America is exponentially larger than it was a decade ago. If I can find it, I'll post it, but I don't know what to believe anymore....

In the words of Hetal and Kapila--"every hole but that one! ROFL!"

lol...did some1 mention me??? LOL thas soo funny

also, 1 time this person fr slutgers askd us all these ?s about this stuf n we strait up lied. wtf. ur askin NDN peeps about SEXX? ROTFLMAO!!1

Abhi: Ask not what your mom and dad will think about this post, ask what and how you can inform/entertain your readers on this blog. BTW "Taz": I don't know about LA LA land, but if you spit in Singapore on public street -you mught spend a night in the Big House... although I hear ya. This survey is'nt worth the cost of paper it is written on.

also, 1 time this person fr slutgers askd us all these ?s

LOL..no you didnt just go there

"IF half the desi guys in NYC were getting laid, perhaps then there wouldn't be such a high number of fights at clubs!"

Amen!

Also sex is boring and it makes you smell..

You poor thing.

BTW "Taz": I don't know about LA LA land, but if you spit in Singapore on public street -you mught spend a night in the Big House

This survey is'nt worth the cost of paper it is written on.

Yo Dad said it! 20 people damn. I can conjure up at least 50 honest people who'd tell me like it is with one phone call. No lies no pretense. Come on now. OK wait maybe cause I'm older. Nevermind. These tykes are 18-24 and having sex? Ram Ram...

did anyone mention slutgers ??!! :D
too bad m gonna get outta there in may :(

While the methodology and sample make this study less than useful, the results are hardly surprising. Immigrant children tend to adopt the mores of their host society. I was reading a book on the rise of India called Despite the Gods, and the author cites to a large Indian survey which indicates that roughly 3/4 of Indians believe that the parents had final say in choice of marital partners and that 56% of "urban graduates" believed that marrying outside of one's jati was wrong. Most of the 1gens come from this later group, though being immigrants they may have a somewhat (but I suspect not radically) different take on these issues.

I've always felt that first gen desis had an old school, almost Ethan Frommesque viewpoint on sex that is more in keeping with america 100 or more years ago. For ABDs its a mix and match..the ones with progressive parents, who got to date and hopefully reached 3rd base sometime around the age of 15 have one viewpoint...others who were stifled till college and then let loose on straight Jack D, Stoli or Long Island Ice Teas approach sex in another way...a third group who waited till AFTER college...well here we have the club fighters who habitually wear patent leather shoes and two tone shirts :(

"American style dating is cheesy (atleast the way average americans date).. Also sex is boring and it makes you smell.."

hahaha...
I think in the case of 1.5, it pretty much counts as second gen., no? Was that ever detailed in the study? Or what age qualifies for first generation in this study...?
GAH! What does it matter anyway. Good for you if you get it on!!

"2) For the 65% of Fob males who do not have any personal moral baggage and who are horny as hell too, their options are extremely limited - Females of other races are way beyond reach. ABCD Females prefer ABCD Males. The Fob male-female ratio is first of all skewed badly, add to that the fact of #1 that only 20% of these fob females would be open to pre-marital sex. Leaves you with just the 1 FOB in the survey who got lucky."

Don't know about that.. These day a lot of so called "fobs" (male) make it one of their goals to date a white woman, and do so within a few years of arriving here.... they usually reject brown girls as potential partners (until they get an arranged marriage if they choose to go through with it that is), and usually don't associate with ABCDs (whether the 'gangstas' or the 'coconuts', both of whom go after other ABCD girls)..

'coconuts', both of whom go after other ABCD girls)..

Coconuts do NOT go after ABCD girls. AT ALL. More like, "anything but brown".

Why do people waste brain power on things like this? This is the reason there is no cure for AIDS and cancer because people are to busy trying to figure out who is doing it. A country of over a billion people VS. a country of maybe 300 million. I conclude that people in India do it alot more often and people who come from India once they do bang they will not stop. Give me my genius grant and please no applause.

I get so confused over thing's like this. Say that the survey was perfectly done and with the same results, then what? Are they going to send a letter to all 2nd generation parent's telling them about how much their daughter like's to chew on the old meat stick?

Some other things that might suprise these people might be

1. Once African's move to America they no longer hunt for lion and stop being so damn hungry
2. Once egyptian's move here they no longer "walk like an egyptian" and adopt a more American style of walk
3. When Canadian's move to California or Florida they do not melt
4. When French peopl move here, however they still have this "my sh@# doesnt stink" attitude about them.

"American style dating is cheesy (atleast the way average americans date).. Also sex is boring and it makes you smell.."

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by cheesy. The intention is to meet many people till you find one you want to spend all your time with. Love is not viewed by Americans as something you can manufacture. There has to be a chemistry, similar interests, and similar mindset. This then leads to a belief that a couple can make it together long term. Unfortunately, not enough Americans these days take their vows seriously. For this, I am truly embarrassed.

The anthropological definition of marriage pertains to legal sexual access to a person. If you are finding sex boring, best not to marry at all. Honestly, I can't imagine why you'd feel that way.... Unless you aren't enjoying it. I do apologize but by the ID you have chosen I can't tell whether you are male or female. Since lack of sex drive is often a female dysfunction I will go on that assumption:

Intercourse is NOT only one way to have sex and 70% of women cannot climax during it (if men claim a better success rate, the women are faking). The clitoris the primary sexual organ in women. If you don't know what that is or where it is, then you might want to do some research (clinical and fun :) ).

If you are just generally uninterested in sex you may want to consider seeing a doctor. A lack of sexual appetite is related to a lack of testosterone (in men *and* women). This can lead to health problems!

Also the later you chose to have sex the more likely you are to have sexual dysfunctions. Not to pat Westerners on the back or anything cuz plenty have sex too early, but waiting till you are 28 is really bad for your body.... even more so if you aren't masturbating regularly. If you don't use it, you lose it... literally. Women lack the fluids and estrogen to maintain healthy vaginal walls which then atrophy and men end up at least partially impotent.

Then there's the whole issue of needing the endorphins released during sex as a natural stress reducer, et cetera. Oh and it's good exercise! :)

Oh and lastly.... you get used to the smells and flavors associated with sex. It really isn't a big deal. And frankly, the worst thing you can say to your partner is that they taste or smell bad... so don't ever do that! Washing beforehand should be sufficient to make all subsequent smells and flavors fresh and non-offensive.

this gal miss joshi likely had a required 'project' she had to do, and this was the simplest thing..

her thought: let me go to the indian students club meeting, hand out some survey, and write up som BS paper..

her profs thought: let me make this into some BS 'research' paper..so i can make my resume longer..and hopefully get on tenure track...

academia is the true art of learning how to make shit look like paper..
amazing.

4. When French peopl move here, however they still have this "my sh@# doesnt stink" attitude about them.

Siddhartha is French! :D

shallow thinker:
you have just earned your tenure at brown university.
shabash.

Here's the only survey we care about:

Sexual encounters we had with non-Indians over the weekend: 0
Sexual encounters we had with 2nd generation Indians over the weekend: 0
Sexual encounters we had with 1st generation Indians over the weekend: 0
Sexual encounters we had with call center operators over the weekend: 0*
Sexual encounters we had with the sexy pillow over the weekend: 0**
Sexual encounters we had with the house plant over the weekend: 0***
Total sexual encounters we had over the weekend: 0

Thanks, Abhi, for reminding us that people are, indeed, doing it...without us.

* They hung up before things got good.
** Pillow said no.
*** It dried up and died upon our touch.

SuperJagjit... LOL!

The 'looser' used in the title seems like a clever play on 'loser' ;)

lol...this is a funny thread, i think the problem with most 2nd gens is that they got mad complexes. We got different sects, the ABCDs, the Team Indias(naively think they are indian), The Blindians, and coconuts. When it comes to casual sex i think that those walls all break down and all guys are out for the hottest desi girl they can bag, comes down to game. Personal experience dictates that there is no single type of game cause many of the desi girls chameleon themselves and its often difficutlt to determine which sect they belong to based on style alone, haha, i find the truest forms and the hottest ones to be coconuts and Team Indias. Banker or doctor, throw in some thoughts on salman rusdie, perhaps quote a line of neruda and you you're home free.

As for what the Sex Guru is talking about....what were you doing in hs and college? besides everything he wrote can be found in like any issue of Maxim, FHM, or any other generic guy magazine.

I think of myself as second generation indian. My parents were born in India and I was born there but I came to America as a BABY in the 80s. WHen I was under my parent's supervisation, I did NOT DATE, kiss boys, have sex, etc. When I moved to go to college I was asked out a lot. I have a white boyfriend who is used to having sex with a girlfriend. This became a HUGE cultural issue for me because I wanted to save myself until marriage. Well, Ive had sex numerous times and Ive changed my mind on when I should have sex and with whom.

Now,I dont mind one-night stands and multiple male partners as long as safe sex is practiced and I continue my birth control methods. I decided that I want to have sex before marriage BUT NOT CHILDREN. I enjoy having sex with different men because I get more aroused when I encounter a new male in bed but I do not want to dump my boyfriend. He and I have an understanding that it is an open relationship though I sleep with way more partners than him. Anyways, when I get married,(Hopefully I can find a good innocent indian guy) I hope my partner understands that this is the 21st century and he shouldnt be the only man I sleep with. I mean, he should be the only man I am emotionally in love with, but there should be an understanding that if Im attracted to a man, and he is attracted to me, we should have sex.

AND I AM SICK OF WOMEN CALLING OTHER WOMEN THAT ARE COMFORTABLE WITH THEIR SEXUAL NATURE "SLUTS/WHORES". Im not a "slut" or "whore" , IM A WOMAN THAT ENJOYS FUCKING MEN.IM SO SICK OF MEN AND WOMEN TEACHING US GIRLS THAT WE SHOULD SAVE OUR PUSSIES AND BE PURE and if not we should feel GUILT and worthless.BULLSHIT.

And by the way, why are us sexually active people called LOOSE?????????? It has such a negative connotation -makes it seem like we are broken and need to be tightened.

To quote Trey MacDougal..."All right-y, then."

MorningSunshine - you should come to our Saturday parties at Arena!!

Is morningsunshine for real?

Is morningsunshine for real?

morningsunshine gets a little cranky when she goes without her morningwood.

.

Women lack the fluids and estrogen to maintain healthy vaginal walls which then atrophy and men end up at least partially impotent.

Umm...really? I don't think having sex determines the amount of circulating estrogen in your body, but I could be wrong. I don't deal much with sexual function in the emergency room. In fact, impotence/lack of sex drive is just about the ONLY chief complaint I've never treated.

Anyway, I know plenty of people who are saving themselves for marriage, but only one is desi,and 2nd gen at that. The other desis I know are sexually active albeit not promiscuous. 20 is an absurd sample size for any study, especially that one.

Apparently the sex ed unit can't come soon enough.

I was gonna hold off til May but maybe I betta get that ball rollin'.

"As for what the Sex Guru is talking about....what were you doing in hs and college? besides everything he wrote can be found in like any issue of Maxim, FHM, or any other generic guy magazine."

To Cocopuffs: Yes, I am aware that the ID is deceiving....I'm actually female. I found it silly to refer to myself as mataji... and just ran with what popped into my head. Not that my choice was any less silly....

I was responding to a previous post... hence the quotes. #14 to be exact. While in general it may be none of my business what a person thinks about their own sex life, if they go ahead and post it publicly it is fair game. Honestly, I was concerned for this person.

Personally, I find Maxim vile. I have never read Men's Health.... I don't have the requisite plumbing to bother. :)

Oh and, health education, including sex ed, was something taught on the middle school level where I am from. Yet I am often stunned by the ignorance I come across on the subject matter. Often help is unappreciated.... so whatever.

Anyways, when I get married,(Hopefully I can find a good innocent indian guy) I hope my partner understands that this is the 21st century and he shouldnt be the only man I sleep with. I mean, he should be the only man I am emotionally in love with, but there should be an understanding that if Im attracted to a man, and he is attracted to me, we should have sex.

I hope you're joking (I think you are). In case you're not...your husband should indeed understand that he's not the only man you've SLEPT with (past tense)...but it will be a sad day if you find an Indian guy willing to accept that he's not the only one you're currently sleeping with (after getting married to him). I hope there are no chumps like that out there.

Amitabh,
I know two couples in Desh who're into, what the kids call "open relationship". Exception to norm and all that, but they do exist.

Waat are you guys telling man? I got more kitties than the local animal shelter.

I hope there are no chumps like that out there.

You know what, with 1 billion + of us, I'm sure there are. I'm really torn about whether such a person would be a chump. On one hand, I think two consenting adults should be able to do whatever as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, so if her husband is ok wih it I shouldn't think he's a chump. On the other hand, I think smokers are chumps because they are endangering their health, as her husband would be if he allowed her to sleep around. So I guess that makes him a chump in my eyes too. Theoretically, though, I support other people's right to be promiscuous as long as there is full disclosure.

So a 1.5gen is possible.

What about a 2.5 gen?

Because I was born here but am considering emigrating to the homeland (for business purposes). Will this make me a 2.5 gen?

Santosh, yer killing me here

"Umm...really? I don't think having sex determines the amount of circulating estrogen in your body, but I could be wrong. I don't deal much with sexual function in the emergency room. In fact, impotence/lack of sex drive is just about the ONLY chief complaint I've never treated."

To Desishiksa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrophic_vaginitis

Look under "Incidence and causes"... lack of sexual activity. Sorry its not a medical source but it was the best I could do quickly. I have other things I need to research today.

The only reason I heard of this in the first place is because my mother told me that her gyno told her to either "use it or lose it." No joke.

In case you're not...your husband should indeed understand that he's not the only man you've SLEPT with (past tense)...but it will be a sad day if you find an Indian guy willing to accept that he's not the only one you're currently sleeping with (after getting married to him). I hope there are no chumps like that out there.

Why would it be a sad day? I dont think I will be sad if my siblings were swingers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrophic_vaginitis

Look under "Incidence and causes"... lack of sexual activity. Sorry its not a medical source but it was the best I could do quickly. I have other things I need to research today.

yea but the wiki article made it seem like it was more common in Post-menopausal women, not women saving themselves for marriage in their 20s.

I think there's some confusion about atrophic vaginitis here. Lack of sex might exacerbate it, who knows, and lack of estrogen certainly can cause it, but I don't think that the corollary to that is that the more sex you have the more estrogen you produce. Anyway it's mostly postmenopausal women that get it.

Also, one should try to avoid getting medical information from wikipedia as far as possible. Now if you're forced to deliver a baby in the backseat of a car and that's the only source you have, go for it...

Stop hating on MorningSunshine, if she is for real and not some idiot guy commenting to create chaos in this thread, than more props, its not about being a slut, the double standard thing is pretty vile in general. When i went thru my post traumatic first love breakup womanizing stint, i got mad props for being a man whore or should i say the quality of the conquests, why should our sexually liberated sisters be judged differently? don't hate the players hate the game. The only haters i've found are the ones without game or just plain ugly.

Sex Guru: absolutely, i hate maxim, and nearly all of those magazines, i've graduated past that point and primarily read Esquire, The New Yorker and GQ on occasion. But ya dunno your experience but most desi girls i have been with do admit that most OTHER desi guys could use some pointers, lol, but hey, i'm not hating, makes me look good in comparison.

For the 65% of Fob males who do not have any personal moral baggage and who are horny as hell too, their options are extremely limited - Females of other races are way beyond reach. ABCD Females prefer ABCD Males. The Fob male-female ratio is first of all skewed badly, add to that the fact of #1 that only 20% of these fob females would be open to pre-marital sex. Leaves you with just the 1 FOB in the survey who got lucky.

Word, brother. I'd like to add, however, that out of the 65% about, only a small fraction are actually willing to try. But then, why bother when you can get a super-hot wife just by calling your mom?

As a FOB who started out with strong moral qualms against pre-marital sex, and slowly, over the years moved to the no-personal-moral-baggage zone, this article was quite fun to read :) Thanks Abhi!

I can't wait to move to the North-East. There must be something in the air there :D

I know two couples in Desh who're into, what the kids call "open relationship".

1) At least 1/3rd of fobs (in my experience) have 'desi/moral values' which restrict them from activity of this kind - I'd say a good 80% for Fob Females, and about 35% for Fob Males. Yes, this disparity between the sexes is huge.

My experience says there are two categories among FOB females: those who moved to the US directly from their parents chhatra-chaya, and those that lived independently for some time in India (working, eg) before moving. The latter category is, generally speaking, more open sexually, as they saw or were part of the silent change in sexual attitudes on in India. They don't necessarily see pre-marital sex as something Americans do. Also, having been longer in India and more mature when they moved, they are more secure in their identity as a desi.

As for guys, well, they just want to get laid, for the most part. Some get lucky, some don't. The ones that don't book a ticket to Las Vegas.

As for guys, well, they just want to get laid, for the most part. Some get lucky, some don't. The ones that don't book a ticket to Las Vegas.

Yep, just like any other 20-something guys from any part of the world :)

morningsunshine

a cuckold is not necessarily wedded--you can be in a less formal relationship as well. congrats on cuckolding the masses--you represent us browns well.

i guess it's a sign of 'progress' when 1st gens proclaim their promiscuity to the world (via pseudonymous handles of course)?

Young Indian immigrants to the United States keep their cultural beliefs about no sex before marriage but the second generation shows signs of acquiring local customs, according to a new survey.

OK, all you have to do is not mention the N=20 sample size and this becomes real research from Columbia University, real news and a fact and the truth!

i guess it's a sign of 'progress' when 1st gens proclaim their promiscuity to the world (via pseudonymous handles of course)?

If you don't say you have sex you're a 'typical' FOB nerd, if you do you're subjected to this.
Sigh, Can't win if you're a FOB.

Desishiksa, Al Mujahid:

Yes, if it's an understanding between the spouses (with full disclosure) and they both agree to an 'open marriage' then hey, it's entirely their business. The reason I feel it's 'sad' is because the model of desi masculinity I grew up with would not have tolerated that, so it's hard for me to imagine desi guys being cool with that setup. It's yet another sign of just how much (and how rapidly) our culture is changing. I also don't think it's good for their kids (even if the kids don't know about it, there is still an underlying, unspoken poisonous reality which is going to permeate that home - my opinion). But on reflection, if the husband IS cool with it, then 'chump' may not be the right word. Still not something I can grasp, but to each his own. The notion of open-marriages among desis does seem strange though.

It's yet another sign of just how much (and how rapidly) our culture is changing.

OK, I'm probably overstating the case here...I do realise that only a tiny tiny fraction of desis are embracing open marriages.

TOTAL THREADJACK...as I was typing the above (I'm in a hospital library) I turned my head to the magazine rack nearby and noticed that Businessweek has Lakshmi and Aditya Mittal on the cover..."Mittal & Son". Pretty cool.

the model of desi masculinity I grew up with would not have tolerated that

I'd certainly hate to be fighting the Sanjaya battle on one front, only to be confronted by legions of brown cuckolds on another.

I know two couples in Desh who're into, what the kids call "open relationship".

Shodan, I don't know if that was intentional, but that was really funny :D.

Nope. That's just your mad proofreading skills :)
Whatever floats the boat of consenting adults etc. etc.

Sex Guru #34,

Love is not viewed by Americans as something you can manufacture. There has to be a chemistry, similar interests, and similar mindset. This then leads to a belief that a couple can make it together long term. Unfortunately, not enough Americans these days take their vows seriously. For this, I am truly embarrassed.

Sex Guru, When love is equated to "chemistry, similar interests and similar mindset", it naturally follows that when these wear off or diverge, "not enough Americans these days take their vows seriously". When love is defined as something you develop for anybody, in this case, one's partner in marriage, and sustain it unconditionally for the rest of the life (as traditionally understood as the ideal in India), then the effort to stick together follows naturally.

Also the later you chose to have sex the more likely you are to have sexual dysfunctions.

Perhaps when abstinence and sexual abstinence in particular becomes cool again sometime in the future, young kids will discard such silly notions of use it or lose it. In the meantime as the pendulum swings the other way, more and more young urban kids in India equate pre-marital sex = westernization = progress!

As for guys, well, they just want to get laid, for the most part. Some get lucky, some don't. The ones that don't book a ticket to Las Vegas. Yep, just like any other 20-something guys from any part of the world :)

Haha, true. However, to be fair, most of them would stop far short of 'real' sex with a prostitute. In fact, that might partly explain why so many FOBs fall in category 2 (sexual activity but no intercourse).

To Cocopuffs:

Unfortunately, yes... many men, not just desi, need serious help:

The guy that jammed his tongue down my throat or directly in my ear. Yuck!
The guy that came before it even got started. Hahahahahahaha!
The guy that couldn't be bothered with foreplay. Um, your erection does NOT mean *I'm* ready yet!!!
The guy that refuse to go down. Um, you get kicked out of bed immediately!
The guy that went down and didn't know what the hell he was doing. If you are at least coach-able... you are do-able.
The guy that treated my juices like it was bio-hazardous material. Get a grip!
The guy that insulted my physique. Dude, I hope you never get laid again in your life!
The guy that couldn't get it up cuz he was too nervous. Well, I didn't think I was that intimidating... but you still got a tongue! :)
And to all the guys that thought their pleasure not just more important but the only goal.... May you choke on your own vomit and die!

Ahhhhh that was cleansing. :)

82% of 20 people?

That is like 0.82 * 20 = 8.2 * 2 = 16.4 people right?

So some people were partly 1st and partly 2nd generation??? Lies, damned lies and statistics!

Amitabh,

A generation ago, the standard model of desi masculinity would demand that a wife be subservient to her husband in most important aspects of her life. Thankfully, that model has been, and is being, challenged. If "your culture" has repressive and illiberal aspects, they ought to change-- nothing sad about it. While I wouldn't personally would not choose an open marriage, you are making a rather vulgar conservative argument. Your use of the word "chump" also hints at a subtext of superiority of desi "moral" mores.

That is like 0.82 * 20 = 8.2 * 2 = 16.4 people right?

So some people were partly 1st and partly 2nd generation??? Lies, damned lies and statistics!

You know what they say, 67.32% of the statistics are made up, 37.51% of those, on the spot.

82% of 20 people? That is like 0.82 * 20 = 8.2 * 2 = 16.4 people right?

DdiA:

55% of participants engaged in sexual activity, of which 22% were first-generation and 82% were second-generation.

That is 82% of the 55% (11 individuals), that engaged in sexual activity, were 2nd-gen. Still, 82% + 22% = 104%, so your point about the numbers being funny stands.

Perhaps when abstinence and sexual abstinence in particular becomes cool again sometime in the future, young kids will discard such silly notions of use it or lose it.

Hey RealResearch (#75), that's an interesting thought. What would spur that, though? I'm not (intentionally) being snide when I ask this, but the only (and very, very silly) thought I had to get THAT movement going would involve overbearing Indian parents who demand you lose your virginity by 16, buy you your first bong at age 7, and try to push you towards a healthy life of alcoholism and chain smoking at 12.

The more taboo you make sex, drugs, and rock n roll, as the US's abstinence and anti-drug movement has proven generation after generation, the more likely kids are going to do it out of the sheer thoughtless and spiteful rebellion (the only kind of teenage rebellion). So...the only way I can see them running from this is if they wake up to find a condom under their pillow when they lose their first tooth. "Mom...Dad...you can't MAKE me! I'm not LIKE you! You don't understand what it's like to be my age! Stop mailing me astro glide! I freaking hate you!"

Honestly, while I remain a dying species of 2nd generation virgins-til-marriage Indian girls, I'm not opposed to these kids...uh, I mean...my peers...having sex as long as they *SAFELY* psychologically and physically experience the emotional fulfillment, pleasure, chance of pain, VD, and/or babies, and understand the consequences are more often than not heart-break (especially if you're not as thick skinned as you thought you were).

Good catch Sakshi, though it still makes 82% 0f 55% 0f 20 individuals, which is 9.02 people. And seriously, who the hell calls this "research"? You can meet more desis in Luna on a Friday night in the summer. A better way to 'conduct this research' is the make a list of the women in groups less than 3 in size, and hit on each of them repeatedly. That way you can go home with more than 11 phone numbers. Although, it will still mean that you sleep with only 0.02 individuals that night.

Although, it will still mean that you sleep with only 0.02 individuals that night.

LOL!

You're all missing the point. It's a Columbia University study. Ya grab? That's why they only needed 20 respondents. In fact, I have a fact sheet that provides guidelines for such studies and the required sample size.

East Tennessee State University would have to have at least six thousand respondents for a similar study to be valid.

On the other hand, Brown is permitted to get away with N=30. Harvard Medical School only has to ask two people, and one of them can be Kaavya.

It's all about context, people.

It's a Columbia University study. Ya grab? That's why they only needed 20 respondents...On the other hand, Brown is permitted to get away with N=30

NjDe$iQTpie: (Brown is) as prestigous as columbia so f u

It's a Columbia University study.

But it looks like a B&T study, right? They probably commute.

The merit of this piece is sorely lacking. It says something that you stooped to making it a credible topic of interest here unless of course you invoke the ever expanding rules of what constitutes a bloggable issue.

Should have put it in the 'humor' section.

Should have put it in the 'humor' section.

Check the tags dude.

"I support other people's right to be promiscuous as long as there is full disclosure."

Agree with Desishika...problem with desis predominantly seems to be the battle between the "good moral values" of the so called "indian culture" Vs what people actually want to do or do...

This 'keeping up appearances' means that desis feel reluctant to do the 'full discolsure' especially if they want to 'marry innocent boys/girls from India'....therein lies the issue. Either one should be bold enough to state what they do or not do it in the first place.

"Either one should be bold enough to state what they do or not do it in the first place."

No..no no Josh..you're just not getting the steez...Peep the numbers of desi kids at NYU, BU, Slutgers (:}) hiding boyfriends and girlfriends on the side...at least until parents weekend when all trace of alcohol bottles, glass pipes, condoms, and bodily fluids will be laundered from pillowcases...

Still not something I can grasp, but to each his own. The notion of open-marriages among desis does seem strange though.

I used to know this desi couple from NC when I was at Raleigh. Both in their early 40s, both were professional academics that came here for grad school who were swingers. Not making this up. They were like your average desi couple, not like any of the hip swinging desis in NYC that would have ever been exposed to it, didn't have kids but they were swingers and met people on the internet.

at least until parents weekend when all trace of alcohol bottles, glass pipes, condoms, and bodily fluids will be laundered from pillowcases...

Reminds me of the time when my dad wanted to drive me back to school after spring break and I insisted on taking the train because there was a case of Zima sitting on my dorm room floor...

This study is kind of funny, though. Aside from the hilarity of a study with N=20, I feel a little sad, because maybe if they had tried to be even a bit more aggressive it could have served an important public health function in gauging how to deliver services, etc. I don't even think it's anecdotally helpful - as was mentioned, there are more anecdotes on the SM comments (and more people!) than were in this study.

Antahkara - prude ;)

7.8% of first-generation South Asians reporting never engaging in any sexual activity, whereas 81.8% of second-generation South Asians reported engaging in sexual activity.

I mean, he should be the only man I am emotionally in love with, but there should be an understanding that if Im attracted to a man, and he is attracted to me, we should have sex.

i don't believe the above is even possible--i mean your philosophy that "i will just sleep with other men, but i only love you". sex and love/trust/bonding seem to go together at the hormonal level at least. my experience, and i am sure many will agree with me, has also been that sex and quite a bit of emotional intimacy are inseparable.

if you believe the above, the conclusion is you cannot sleep around with many simultaneously if you intend an emotional relationship with only one.

but then sleeping with only one at a time is still in, so i am probably not the only one who thinks like 20th century. :)

So, this study is obviously silly (N=20???). Some of the general questions it raises are interesting, though, and there's not a ton of research in this area, but for those who are curious, google "healthy immigrant paradox," or check out stories like this:
http://forum.wordreference.com/archive/index.php/t-256%2520%253C/t-18786.html

In many areas of health, including but not limited to sexual behavior, there seem to be striking trends wrt immigrant communities that are, to a lot of people, counter-intuitive (hence the "paradox").

These studies relate to Latino immigrants; would be an interesting question whether/how results generalize to other immigrant groups.

hahah great post. just goes to prove the FOB assertion that ABCDs have no values.
Or well, different values when it comes to sex.
ABCDs are more slutty and Columbia backs it.
hahaha

Antahkara - prude ;)

You know it, Camille :D. Trying to compensate for the 1st generation....;) jk of course.

great NYT article on dating and the like and an interesting article by sheila iyenger again from columbia :)

Its hillarious how major Indian newspapers - DN & A, Indian Express - picked this story up without questioning the "study's" obvious limitations. Perhaps India, with its burgeoning print industry, should outsource some of its functions, like reading, for example, to American print journalists who are employed in an ever-declining industry.

Santosh, yer killing me here

Respected Sex Ed Teacher,
How come (pun unintended) I never saw you in my classroom in my "prestigious" school in India? Because you never showed up, all my education in matters of "yon sambandh" was from English and (badly dubbed in English) Chinese xxx movies.

Seriously, N=20 is a joke. You could interview twice that number just seathopping in ONE CAR of an NJTransit train between NYC and Metropark at 6pm on any given weeknight...

Respected Sex Ed Teacher,
How come (pun unintended) I never saw you in my classroom in my "prestigious" school in India? Because you never showed up, all my education in matters of "yon sambandh" was from English and (badly dubbed in English) Chinese xxx movies
Oh-pobrecito!

I woulda had to have been teaching you at the age of six or seven! I mean, damn, I ain't that old! ;)

Antahkarana #82

What would spur that, though?

That teen rebel thing was funny. I am not sure, what will bring pre-marital abstinence back in vogue though. I am just going by the fact that things change and what was fashionable once goes out of fashion later and then comes back again. Maybe not rebellion, maybe AIDs or other sexual diseases or some new-fangled wildly popular religious movement or maybe earlier marriages or even child marriages or some paradigm shift in morals and values that we can't foresee now. Making it taboo without controls will always bring in the forbidden fruit syndrome, so I don't think it may happen that way.

Honestly, while I remain a dying species of 2nd generation virgins-til-marriage Indian girls, I'm not opposed to these kids...uh, I mean...my peers...having sex as long as they *SAFELY* psychologically and physically experience the emotional fulfillment, pleasure, chance of pain, VD, and/or babies, and understand the consequences are more often than not heart-break (especially if you're not as thick skinned as you thought you were).

Evidently there was something that made you and a few others choose pre-marital abstinence. Perhaps more maybe influenced similarly, but I don't have any issues with people wanting to have pre-marital sex, so long as they don't think of it as progress and a choice to keep sex within marriage as backwards or primitive.

siddhartha, in another thread:

We want a place here where people are comfortable discussing a wide range of topics without feeling put down, objectified, or devalued. A safe space. If you want to be part of the solution, the first step is to take pains to not be part of the problem. Always err on the side of respect. It's a good principle for living, whether in the "real" or "virtual" worlds.

I was very happy to see this, and apologized for my initial name-calling; however, now I'm having some trouble reconciling Siddhartha's statement with the continued presence on this thread of comments 47, 57, and now 105. What gives?

wrt: Vivek's comment above...

I deleted 57 and 105, so the numbering of this thread is now off.

however, now I'm having some trouble reconciling Siddhartha's statement with the continued presence on this thread of comments 47, 57, and now 105. What gives?

vivek:

i'm #47. i probably squeaked by on the humor exception. but frankly, morningsunshine's comment was so over the top and out of context that it deserved a gentle slam.

not that i disagee with what she said. its just that the words are right but the music's off-key.

you're riled up now, but i'm sure you'll agree with me the morning after the night before.

i'm #47. i probably squeaked by on the humor exception.

Yep. ;)

hmm..why my comment got deleted? I think it was fairly obvious i was kidding!

See I used to play cricket, so I will give the analogy based on it. In cricket, its in umpire's discretion when to give a "wide bowl" on the leg side. Every umpire has its own standard if the distnace from wickets which warrants wide bowl, people generally do not complain as long as the standards are not really weird and the umpire is consistent . If he gives ok to one bowl and wide to another bowl which was pitched at the same place, eyebrows will be raised.

Thats what seemed to have happened here, sometimes a lot of snark and other offensive stuff goes by ok and sometimes even a small joke is considered unacceptable. And it seems like it depends a lot on if you are in the good books of one person or another i.e its personal.

But its no biggy, I like stuff on this web site, a lot. I will continue reading it, and will continue commenting on it. Since it is considered a private website -even though its it wants a lot of readership and encourages comments - you are entitled to do what you please.Delete me, ban me whatever, its your prerogative. But lately it seems less like a place to express opinion, have some fun and more like a desi club where you get in if you are a popular kid , otherwise hounded by overbearing bouncers!

I think morningsunshine was half joking and I was going on in the same vain.

not sure if this was mentioned already but... the summary begins with discussion of INDIA and the spread of HIV/AIDS, and samples Indians in NEW YORK? what is the correlation.
please tell me they didn't receive grant money for this. what a faulty waste! there are so many of us, a study of 22 people from a restricted geographic location should NOT be titled "sexual decision making of immigrant east indians" it's VERY misleading. it should read "sexual decision making of new york indians" if that... 22 for new york even seems slim!

Since you mentioned my Alma Mater: http://www.slutgers.com