Thanks,Anna, for highlighting this. You said it better than anyone could have !

Stories like this and others like this make me want to hit my head too and say ,"Grow up,India!!"

Ps:I lowe my Yindia too !

Protesting in India is a job (well paying too, bonuses for burning effigy etc.) and we should not condemn them for just doing their job. ;)

hai ram, it's not like he tongued her. what's all the fuss, uncles?

Ya Allah!

Somebody should slap this badmash Gere for playing with the izzat of a kunvari woman!

Typical blame the victim/blame the woman mentality. What next, because of that flimsy outfit and all that lipgloss, she was asking for it?

This could have been avoided if Ms.Shetty was wearing a hijab or a Burqa.

Here's the fuss - it was a fundraiser for AIDS, which everybody is trying to pretend doesn't happen in India. So to bring in SEX (even a kiss on the cheek) is just too much for some people.

Can you imagine if Gere had kissed Vikram Seth?

Ennis-bhai:If Richard Gere did this to your maa-bahen, would you still be so flippant about this incident.

Ennis-bhai:If Richard Gere did this to your maa-bahen, would you still be so flippant about this incident.

Oh, no Al-Mujahid-Bhai, then it would be totally different.

OMG What if she's pregnant! Mummy said doing that with a boy is ALL it takes. :0

Paging SpoorLam!

God these cow-belters need to be wiped out.

oy vey, grow the F--- up!

Hey, this is a decent woman here. It's not like she's an actress or anything!

The protesters said Gere insulted Indian culture by kissing the hand and face of the Bollywood actress.

I think it's in an insult to Indian culture to have Bollywood actresses as its de-facto spokeswomen.

I read about this somewhere else and I just thought who are these idiots protesting this. It's so weird b/c some of the videos I've seen her in are pretty raunchy - what's the big fuss over this.

How about these people protest the million's of women, who get felt up on buses every month? How about they try to find out, what make's a group of 100 guys sexually harass ONE WOMAN, on New Year's eve?

I wish these damn people would stop pretending like no one has sex and no one ever thinks about it. There is no other country on earth with a bigger sex probelm then India and it really pisses me off.

#16 - exactly!

nahi !!!!!!!!!!!!!
How could that prettywomaniserdalailamaiser Gere get to to kiss shilpus applecheeks? Gere HAI HAI...shilpa HAI HAI
nahi !!!!!!!!!!

ANNA, Runa, Adi, HMF, PS, Shallowthinker! Cease all of your lies and your anti-Indian rhetoric! Effigies are being made of you as we speak! Hail Spoor Lam!

Pshaw. I say he’s a featherweight punk. Back in the days El Fidel tried this move on Indira Gandhi. At a NAM summit no less.

Thanks, SpoorLam's saffron intern.

My lifelong ambition was to be notorious if I could not be famous !

( Wipes tears of gratitude from eyes and smiles broadly)

Some of the channels are showing an old footage of the same event, but the then host was Bipasha basu who very cleverly avoided the exact same advances from Gere and hugged this other woman who was standing beside Gere at that time on the podium. Shame on you shilpa, you didn't pull a Bipasha on him :-p.

Great awareness tactic indeed. Which smartee came up with this act? Hate when stars and their bloody foolhardiness or greeting becomes the focus, leaving global well-being in the dust.

First the gerbils, now the unprotected kissing. Won't Gere ever learn?

It's clear that this situation is on the verge of becoming an international crisis. The time for delicate diplomacy has gone, and only an extreme sacrifice on behalf of the USA well appease India's injured pride. It won't be easy, but I'm willing to put myself forward as a middle man. I am going to bite the bullet and take US citizenship. Then, as an act of national atonement, I will allow Shipla Shetty to fondle and kiss me senseless. It's a tough ask I know, but, as JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you..."

the second pic looks like he has her in a headlock. Looks mighty uncomfortable!

its a little ridiculous that he is talking about "condom nahi, sex nahin". Maybe Shilpa should be saying "Maro nahin!"

she clearly was caught off guard with his attempt at foreplay (kissing the hands) and then reaching over and going for the push/dip transition to smooch.

I think some of these folks are only happy when they have something to protest.

How about these people protest the million's of women, who get felt up on buses every month? How about they try to find out, what makes a group of 100 guys sexually harass ONE WOMAN, on New Year's eve?

I wish these damn people would stop pretending like no one has sex and no one ever thinks about it. There is no other country on earth with a bigger sex problem then India and it really pisses me off.

Ezzactly!
I think Shilpa responded well. She is quite articulate.

hmmm, and we wonder why westerners look down on the subcontinent.

At least she's not in Pakistan, the Red Mosque would issue a fatwa.

My personal mission in life is to find one of those guys who actually takes the time to make effigies and be all creative only to destroy it. I mean it's like lovingly building a science project and having the dog eat it! And when I do find just such a creative person with the kind of time on his hands that would lead to such dedication I'm going to go all Bata chappal on him!

I think some of these folks are only happy when they have something to protest.

Exactly, as long as it has nothing to do with their own faults.

These people need to find a job, hobby, life, whatever

i wonder if all this fuss could raise some awareness regarding the original issue.

client: begum, heard about all that fuss yesterday with that american actor and that woman?
begum: yes.
client: hmm.. come here now
begum: you'd better wear one of these, unless all you want is to give me a kiss on the the cheek.

What made me wonder is would the reaction be the same if it was an INDIAN actor who did this and not an Ameerikan?

oh great, the nut jobs have prompted condescending oration from Michelle Malkin:
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/007315.htm

Only a matter of time before she calls for Indian internment too, not just the Muslims.

Someone should tell her the "fatwa" was issued by an illegal mosque that's currently being protested by tens of thousands of Pakistani citizens and will probably be shut down by force in the near future.

First rule of wingnuttery - never let the facts get in the way of a good hate screed.

dude the shiv sena is so out of control. it makes me embarrassed that we both call ourselves hindus. troglodytes! this is truly funny, especially the phrase "kissing act":

New Delhi, April. 16 (PTI):
Delhi Shiv Sena chief Jai Bhagwan Goyal said that Gere should be arrested
immediately for his kissing act with Shetty at a function on AIDS awareness
here yesterday, which has led to widespread protests from several quarters.

Giving a memorandum to Delhi's Police Commissioner in this regard, Goyal
also demanded police action against Gere, Shetty and the organisers of the
function.

"It is an attack on our cultural ethos. Our culture does not permit public
display of such acts," he said.

# 32 JPT,

This is what happens when it is an Indian -to-Indian kiss

Now, having proved that I have too much time on my hands today and an obsessive knowledge of Bollywood gossip/trivia ,I shall slink away quietly.

#16, you're so right. I mean, the general reaction is to quiet down rape victims instead of getting them acknowledgment and justice. They're silenced. But a simple kiss on the cheek is oh-so-awful, "the Gora" must pay for it.

Can I kiss you Anna.

You would think Shilpa Shetty's 15 seconds of fame would be up by now...

Slightly OT but I guess Richard Gere finally made the transition from Silver Fox to dirty old man, what a pity.

You would think Shilpa Shetty's 15 seconds of fame would be up by now...

It's funny this has happened now. NDTV just ran a 30-minute programme on Saturday about her doing a photo shoot in London for L'Officiel and Louis Vuitton, and they went with her to Oxford Street and the NDTV people kept asking passers-by if they knew who she was, and everyone (desi and non-desi) was able to identify her, and a variety of men (again, desi and non-desi) all commented on how good-looking she was.

Don’t imitation me! You cabal!

You think this is funny?

White man is mishandling Indian virgin on stage?

I am calling cadres in Himachal Pradesh immediately to crack Tibetans and Dalai Lama over the head with sticks for this attempted rape on stage! Their big American papa disgraces us on stage? With lips?

We’ve had sex in India for millions of years. As well as caste non-system. Another squeeze of our saffron balls like this and we are ready to explode.

Death to Dalai Lama!

Death to Officer and Gentleman!

Hail Mogambo!

I am calling cadres in Himachal Pradesh immediately to crack Tibetans and Dalai Lama over the head with sticks for this attempted rape on stage!

ROFLMAO Spoorlam you da man!

filmiholic writes:>>It's funny this has happened now.

It's makes complete sense that this has happened now.

The bulk of the protests are in UP(Meerut, Varanasi etc) where the elections are around the corner. This gives the political parties something to harp on. The BJP has sent its cadres to protest, the Congress has sent Muslims to protest(yes!) and Samajwadi party has goaded both to protest.

M. Nam

this is on yahoo news. top stories. how silly.

Meenakshi the second pic looks like he has her in a headlock. Looks mighty uncomfortable!

That's what made me check out the video clip, where it doesn't seem quite as bad, though it's still clear she's taken aback, and even the handholding seems to have gone on longer than she expected or wanted it to...
So the soundtrack in the BBC video clip seems quite apropos - "main kya karoon Ram, mujhe buDDha mil gayaa" - he is 57 after all, she's 31! It really appears that he went for her because he wanted to and could - the wrongest message anyone could be sending - even if it's only a kiss. And since that's become the story, also drowning out any positive AIDS-awareness message there might have been. I am impressed, however, with Shilpa's extempore Hindi speaking, which is far better than Aishwarya's, for example.

It's makes complete sense that this has happened now.The bulk of the protests are in UP(Meerut, Varanasi etc) where the elections are around the corner. This gives the political parties something to harp on. The BJP has sent its cadres to protest, the Congress has sent Muslims to protest(yes!) and Samajwadi party has goaded both to protest.

No! Shut up!

It's spontaneous mutiny and ejaculation of provoked saffron balls in outrage as white Buddhist rapes Hindu virgin on stage!

What next? Steven Seagal french kissing Raveena Tandon?

Death to the work and teachings of Mingyur Rinpoche!

Hail Mogambo!

Spoorlam you da man!

Janeofalltrades, you seem like a great and powerful woman with some strength in your arms and potentially against anti-nationals and cabals. Please help me, using your feminine Hindu skills, to make an effigy of the following man. I am going to organise a burning of it outside the American embassy in New York to protest against Kissing Imperialism under guise of Tibetan support.

Hail Mogambo!

Meanwhile, members of the Shilpa Shetty fan club expressed their indignation by burning Richard Gere effigies in between screenings of top 10 Shilpa Shetty rain songs and top 100 Shilpa Shetty pelvic thrusts.

What a bumbling fool. He should stick to gerbils. Am I the only one outraged by the demise of the art of the stolen kiss?

Hey, I wanna be abused by SpoorLam. Where were you when my defamations of Hindutva were up for discussion?

Everyone should see the video clip posted by Chachaji (#45). That little clip itself offers up so much social commentary about India. First of all, Shilpa handled herself very well. I also agree that she spoke Hindi well. Gere behaved like a complete ass. Worse was the reaction of the idiotic crowds as well as the effigy-burners and the politically-motivated protesters. Get a life losers. Even worse was the Bollywood-bhangra dance skit...also, when a mixed crowd of what looked like Sikhs, Hindus, and a Muslim were burning an effigy or something, someone made a 12 o'clock (barah baj gaye) comment aimed at the Sikhs. The whole clip is so surreally ridiculous from beginning to end that it would be almost comical if it wasn't so sad. Now normally I'm not the type to offer up feminist-oriented commentary, but it was also interesting to note that the audience was almost entirely male...which itself makes a statement about conditions in India. The place has a long way to go.

Ok so what's the fuss about? It's reactions like this that hold India back & then they wonder why Bollywood actresses can't make it big in Hollywood! No one's even want to get near an Indian actress now for fear of upsetting the conservatives in India. Perhaps more attention should be paid to the reason for Shetty's appearance, ie: an AIDS awareness rally. It's always two steps forward & one step back!

when a mixed crowd of what looked like Sikhs, Hindus, and a Muslim were burning an effigy or something, someone made a 12 o'clock (barah baj gaye) comment aimed at the Sikhs

Whats the origin of the 12 o'clock connection with the Sikhs. Where did it start?

Hey, I wanna be abused by SpoorLam. Where were you when my defamations of Hindutva were up for discussion?

Don't worry, we are collecting a file on your work for future effigy incidents. Be patient. First is to destroy American Kissing Imperialism under the guise of Tibetan Human Rights. That is biggest threat at the moment. You are eigth or ninth behind all the traitors who work here, Wendy Doniger, Steven Seagal, Dalai Lama, and other rapists.

Hail Mogambo!

Defamers will be burned in effigy in the order they are received. Please stay on the line; your defamation is important to us.

Whats the origin of the 12 o'clock connection with the Sikhs. Where did it start?

I was talking to friend of mine who is an amateur historian. According to him:

During the height of wars of succession and rivalries in Mughal India (~1600 onwards), a lot of prisoners (men and women, often Rajputs, but not always) from these internecine wars who would be transferred to Kybher Pass or northwestern undivided India by the victors through caravans to banish them. Often sikh warriors would surprise attack the prisoner caravans to free them on route (through Punjab) at the mid night. Therefore, folklore grew that Sikhs really upset @ midnight, and these surprise attacks were made at that time.

Later, the folklore became a stereotypical joke. That probably no one really knows when that happened.

Whats the origin of the 12 o'clock connection with the Sikhs. Where did it start?

it's actually a great story that seems to have gotten twisted around and turned into something hateful and mean.

It's spontaneous mutiny and ejaculation of provoked saffron balls in outrage as white Buddhist rapes Hindu virgin on stage!

Shipa Shetty! Hindu Virgin! Aiyyo Shiva/OMG. May be you are not aware that she dated Akshay "Casanova" Kumar, Any body who has to do anything with Akshay Kumar cannot be a Virgin (That includes his fans as well), But I agree to your point that only saffron balls are allowed to rape Hindu virgins.

Thanks Kush and HIbiyatch!

Before somebody starts protesting, I need to make this correction
Sorry SpoorLam, Its not Akshay "Casanova" Kumar, its Akshay "Kama Deva" Kumar

So, anyone know if Richard Gere is still looking for Indian girls to kiss?

Everyone should see the video clip posted by Chachaji (#45). That little clip itself offers up so much social commentary about India. First of all, Shilpa handled herself very well. I also agree that she spoke Hindi well. Gere behaved like a complete ass.

Agree. it was totally inappropriate and out of place. Maybe he should try to kiss the Dalai Lama like that, or Angelina Jolie, or Gwyneth or a presenter at a Hollywood awards show. Fat Old Goat, he's shorter than she is. Ashi, yuck!

Thanks chachaji -- not yet up on YouTube?

I don't know Anna. I have seen you write a lot of feminist posts. I thought you'd be more than a little upset with Gere's "behavior." Forget what Indians are doing; they are rioting for all the wrong reasons, as you pointed out.

However, I found something very troubling with the physical imposition Gere just carried out on Shilpa.

I have written about it.

The whole time I am thinking “Britain colonizes India under pretextual humanitarian excuses.” I am thinking “white boy imposing himself on an ethnic woman.” I am thinking “dude takes despite the girl, with her body language, obviously saying no.”

Gere acted rapaciously and ignorantly and with no attention at all towards the context or history. Congratulations Richard Gere: in addition to being a fat ugly washed out actress you are also a misogynist.

This has nothing to do with the fact that Indian films regulary exhibit kissing. It’s not the kissing that bothered me. It’s how it was done.

but these are the sorts of “news” stories which make me want to smack a few hundred million people upside the head.

I had EXACTLY the same instant reaction when I first read about it.

I don't know Anna. I have seen you write a lot of feminist posts. I thought you'd be more than a little upset with Gere's "behavior."

Hmmm. Interesting point. I guess my perspective is based on:

1) her own words:

Shetty downplayed the incident, saying “it was not so obscene”.

“This was not such a big thing for people to over-react in such a manner,” the actress told the Press Trust of India news agency.

2) the fact that I didn't watch a video-- just saw two pictures after reading what I quoted above. Even after watching the video on your post, I think she was more stunned/amused than violated and scared? I don't know, I'm not her, which is why I went with her take on it. I respect her enough to believe her.

3) the fact that at the end of my post, I did go there, even if only slightly:

Ha! Typical blame the victim/blame the woman mentality. What next, because of that flimsy outfit and all that lipgloss, she was asking for it? Oy, my head hurts.

:)

oh yeah..Gere insults indian culture...oh but when Aishwariya Rai (who said she'd never do it) full on makes out with Hrithik Roshan on screen...isnt that insulting indian culture too???...lol

Indian culture was later overheard stating, “Gimme a frickin’ break

But it was a Big-brotherly kiss, no? :D

@Mohinder... Didn't some fundamentalists try to protest the kissing scene in Dhoom 2?

And would smacking really help the situation? Protests are so common these days... from v-day to PDA to GORA man kissing desi chica...

@walrus...yeah some did but it was barely audible and really nothing. I remember hollering in the theater with all the rest of my college friends when that scene came on..i was like..dAMNNNNN. We all have to agree that shilpa is definetly kissable though ;)

Mohinder, did you say that Ash made out with Hrithik onscreen? I thought she didn't want to kiss on film.

Wow, if those protestors thought what Richard Gere and Shilpa did was insulting Indian culture, I don't want them to know what I did last night...

No offense to any Bollywood fans, BUT I think those guys should have burned 99.9% of the "mainstream" Bollywood movies that are out there!!! What I find most offensive are the VERY gratutious displays of body and gyrating dances (for NO PARTICULAR REASON) in films made for the family to view.

Also, has an incident like this ever happened before (w/ an Indian celeb and an American/Brit man)? I also heard that Ash did not kiss onscreen (with ANYONE, no matter what background).

nicht gut! on a not so different note Anna has Shilpa's lips.

Some people think Bollywood movies are "harmless fun," BUT throw a fit when their kids want to go see anything not rated G or PG. Imagine a young girl watching that crap! What kind of image of women, male/female relationships is she going to be getting? Several people said that Bollywood cranks these out b/c they don't know how to depict sexuality/sexiness/beauty in a healthy, realistic manner.

Richard Gere is just doing what any red blooded man has probably dreamed of doing. I don't know much about Indian culture but why would some people get upset by that? I have watch maybe like one Bollywood movie(damn them movies are long and they be dancing and singing like a mofo in them joints)But I was told that they do not aloww kissing in them please correct me if I am wrong.

I meant to sat that I heard they do not allow kissing in them. Sorry for the bad spelling attack I was watching International fight league.

Doug, I think it depends on the censors. "Jism" (a terrible Bolly remake of "Body Heat" and "Fire" (an great indie film dir by Deepa Mehta) have kissing. These movies were not censored!

I meant not censored in India.

lol i just saw the video on access hollywood, hillarity! that too it seemed shilpa was resisting hehhe. @heuy, u didnt see dhoom2???

Ew. Some of ya'll need to lighten up just a tint. It's the oddest thing in the world -- when a Bollywood actress endeavors in a bit of silly publicity, she's skewered shamelessly and when a Bollywood actor endeavors in a bit of stupidity, people just look the other way.

Let's be consistent. I didn't know something as casual as a kiss was so vulgar. What's next? Letting the women stay at home and make dinner while the men go poach dinner? And after dessert, we can all invent the wheel.

Power to Shilpa for having the good humor (and good career sense) to get some shutterbugs flickering away at her face next to an A-lister.

The behavior of these crazy right wing "hindus" is way out of character for Hindus. Are these extremists trying to model themselves after the taliban, a group of people which they probably loathe?

Most Hindus may have found Gere's and Shetty's behavior a bit racy but the majority of Hindus just ignore it. There are more important issues to deal with. Also, it is a bit hypocritical for Hindus to be prudish about kissing in public. What about the sensual images portrayed in some Hindu temples and the ancient Kama Sutra sculptures? Isn't that also a small but significant part of Hindu heritage? Not too many cultures in the world show sculptures of men and women embracing (and what not) on their houses of worship.

Gere's and Shetty's behavior

Isn't it just "Gere's behavior?"

These guys don't know jack shit about Indian culture. Its quite funny that whereas the British themselves moved away from their conservative Victorian ideas about the behavior and position of women in society, they managed to instill the same among Indians in such a way that we continue to be plagued by them today. On what basis is it against Indian culture? What does this even have to do with Indian culture?

It is things like this that sometimes make me feel we act like a bunch of culture-less people. Its a shame that a culture and society which was always open, rational and reasonable has been reduced to something like this.

The behavior of these crazy right wing "hindus" is way out of character for Hindus. Are these extremists trying to model themselves after the taliban, a group of people which they probably loathe?

Most Hindus may have found Gere's and Shetty's behavior a bit racy but the majority of Hindus just ignore it. There are more important issues to deal with. Also, it is a bit hypocritical for Hindus to be prudish about kissing in public. What about the sensual images portrayed in some Hindu temples and the ancient Kama Sutra sculptures? Isn't that also a small but significant part of Hindu heritage? Not too many cultures in the world show sculptures of men and women embracing (and what not) on their houses of worship.

Check this out: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Khajurahosculpture.jpg

I didn't word the last comment properly, but its in support of gm, not against him/her.

No Mohinder, I've never seen Dhoom 2 or Dhoom 1 for that matter. Looks like I'll have to see it now.

Stupid villagers "paindoos"
I think we should have more and more of this kind of immoral behaviour. Eventually the paindoos of the sub-con will give up burning effigies and have to come to the realization that we aren't living in the middle ages anymore.
More PDA please.

When our desh will improve. What is wrong in kissing???? Gere was just expressing his feelings in a filmy style...Hell with shiv sainiks....narrow minded buggers.

BAHAHAHAH omg they did this on the daily show 2nite..with their brown reporter reporting from "Mumbai". Oh watch the video if u guys can, he grabs her ass too...@Sourav..very true..

Please, not with the Kama Sutra-Khajuraho-Lingam rhetoric!

So the Greeks and Romans had god on mortal action, homosexuality, Venus and Cupid -- and I'll bet they also went through a far more prudish phase than India now, sometime in their history. I'm not too familiar with Egyptian mythology, but of what I know, there is enough hetero-, homo- and auto-eroticism (in both myth and surviving art) to make most of us blush. And well, Egypt area is not exactly permissive now. Yes, they both switched religions along the way, but I don't think that alone makes a big difference.

I may be wrong, but I believe that change in cultures as old and near-contemporaneous as these (Greco-Roman, Near Eastern, and Indic) is inevitable. Especially given the similarities of hisorical events (it is largely by chance that Hinduism survived, and Hellenic Polytheism didn't, considering the encounters that the regions had). In other words, pretty much all the ancients went through some frisky, X-rated phases before becoming more modest over time... but you cannot selectively bring up those phases in the context of modern culture. Are you going to point this out to the modern Egyptians, as proof that they should loosen up? And to counter the argument that India is different from the other places because the religion has not changed since the birth of Shiva -- well, hasn't it, at least somewhat?

And regardless of all this, you have to be really naive to say it's "a culture and society which was always open, rational and reasonable." Come on, seriously. I'll need a more expert historian/Vedic scholar to back me up, but I'll bet we are socially way better off now than at most points in our history (yes, including the Khajuraho era).

I do think that contemporary India's view of sexuality is seriously messed up, but I also think that saying that erotic sculptures and the Kama Sutra* are an important part of Indian culture is no better than people saying that kissing or V-Day is not.

* I suspect the Kama Sutra was their (classier) version of Playboy -- wouldn't it be morbidly funny if someone from 2 millenia hence dug out an issue and decided it's an indicative, semi-sacred text of our time? :P

I am very well aware of the Kama Sutra, Lingam, etc argument. For the same reason I started off with "I know this is a tried and tested argument, ". I do not intend to invoke a lifestyle that is centuries old. My problem with most Indians is their conservative Victorian thinking. Also, I have no problems in dealing with the fact that the art of kissing was in fact developed in India, and there is no reason to term kissing as "against Indian culture" at all, or as is currently the case, include it in India's obscenity laws.

Yes, they both switched religions along the way, but I don't think that alone makes a big difference.

If you read almost any book by William Dalrymple (he is currently the best-selling author in India) on late-medieval and pre-British India, it wouls be pretty clear that we were not bound by the kind of senseless morality that we have bound ourselves today in. Besides, if Shiva is currently being worshipped, what is wrong with the Lingam argument anyway. We're not referring to Hercules or Dionysus are we?

And regardless of all this, you have to be really naive to say it's "a culture and society which was always open, rational and reasonable." Come on, seriously. I'll need a more expert historian/Vedic scholar to back me up, but I'll bet we are socially way better off now than at most points in our history (yes, including the Khajuraho era)

* I suspect the Kama Sutra was their (classier) version of Playboy -- wouldn't it be morbidly funny if someone from 2 millenia hence dug out an issue and decided it's an indicative, semi-sacred text of our time? :P

Sourav,

My problem with most Indians is their conservative Victorian thinking...If you read almost any book by William Dalrymple (he is currently the best-selling author in India) on late-medieval and pre-British India, it wouls be pretty clear that we were not bound by the kind of senseless morality that we have bound ourselves today in.

That's one of the major things I was trying to point at. Indians are conservative/senselessly moral solely because of imbibed Victorian values?? I heard that spiel a lot in my high school years, and could never figure where it was coming from. I haven't read William Dalrymple, but he's the source of that, maybe I should!

So what does Dalrymple say about the veracity of the (very much pre-British) issues like, I don't know... child marriage, widow rights, sati, or caste? Are they less senseless (they were certainly believed to be moral) than being denied the right to kiss in public? Or does he succeed in proving they didn't exist?

If the latter is the case, I couldn't be happier... it's wonderful to think of the land all rosy and ideal and rational for five thousand years.

I have no problems in dealing with the fact that the art of kissing was in fact developed in India...

I've heard that theory, but it is not a fact with any reliable research to back it up, AFAIK. And I don't think it can be backed up, unless you conclusively prove that nowhere else on earth, in the history of mankind, did people kiss, before the Indians invented it. I'm not saying that kissing did not happen in India from very very long ago -- I am sure it did. But I don't see how we can claim a patent on it. Anyway, I don't see how it matters.

It makes a hell of a lot of difference.

Ok, I was treading shaky ground here, and I'll admit I'm not confident of that assertion myself. Of course it makes some difference, but I am wondering if the difference between the differences (sorry, not very eloquent now) is only in the details, with regards to change from a sexually permissive society to a conservative one. Is there any evidence to show that the moral standards of society did not change as drastically in Pre-British India as in Greece?

How exactly was the survival of Hinduism by chance?

Wasn't it? I would say it survived because people were less reluctant to let go of it or embrace another religion -- which gives about as much information as saying it survived. But I haven't thought or read too deeply about the issue. Do you have any thoughts?

In my opinion, this is the single most important aspect that distinguishes us - the fact that Islam (and to a much lesser extent Christianity) were assimilated in Hinduism

Exactly my point. You don't need the population to completely convert to have the effects of religious contact permeate the culture -- especially given the intensity of the contact.

The Khajuraho era must not be interpreted as Indians having endless sex. the purpose of those images was to in a way "lure" the people into worldliness from Buddhism which was the dominant faith then. The images are also a test of a person's resolve to shun worldliness - kind of trying to tempt someone. For the same reason, you don't find any such erotic sculpture inside the temple itself.

You misunderstood. I think people having endless sex would be far preferable to certain other things. I was reacting to your comment about "Victorian ideas about the behavior and position of women in society", and asking if Pre-British Indians had it better than we do in that regard.

Again, I would say it is naive on your side to think that my point was to invoke the same stuff today

Nope, I didn't think that. It's just one my gripes with Kama Sutra fans that they seem to have no doubt that it was a sacred, revered text, and little basis to show that it was.

Oh, and re: Besides, if Shiva is currently being worshipped, what is wrong with the Lingam argument anyway.

I'm just speaking from what I know, but the people I know who seriously worship Shiva would freak out if they were told what the Lingam supposedly represents. (I'm sure they know, but are repulsed by the idea). On one level, maybe they are right... it is just one of the interpretations, after all. And even if it really was conceived as a phallic symbol, some people prefer to think of it otherwise. Who's to say the interpretation didn't become more family-friendly during the Medieval period or something? Again, I don't know much about this, and I'm open to anything that proves the contrary.

I'm just speaking from what I know, but the people I know who seriously worship Shiva would freak out if they were told what the Lingam supposedly represents. (I'm sure they know, but are repulsed by the idea). On one level, maybe they are right... it is just one of the interpretations, after all. And even if it really was conceived as a phallic symbol, some people prefer to think of it otherwise. Who's to say the interpretation didn't become more family-friendly during the Medieval period or something? Again, I don't know much about this, and I'm open to anything that proves the contrary.

I suspect you are right about this.

From Cindy to Shilpa. I am as desi as you can get but this is what I would call a mighty fall.

The Onion interviews Americans.

Indian culture was later overheard stating, “Gimme a frickin’ break. There are hundreds of other things I find far more insulting— Anand Jon, for example.”

Just curious: Anand Jon would appear to be Indian-born, but raised abroad (America?). Yet - perhaps unintentionally - his obnoxious behavior is pinned down to the Indian part of his upbringing. Why should Indians be ashamed and not Americans? After all, he is more an American than an Indian. (I am aware that Anna was trying to be humorous, of course, but I think my point is still valid.)

I have a few American cousins and almost uniformly their views of "Indian" culture are phrased in negatives. I don't have anything against this - that's the way they see their "Indian" inheritance. And to be fair, many "Indians" view of their inheritance is also phrased in negatives. Probably all this has been discussed in previous posts but I am too tired to search the archives. Cheers.

I saw the video clip and as a woman, am not at all impressed with Gere's actions.

A handshake, hug or kiss on the hand would have sufficed.

Why the hell did he grab her, dip her and kiss her face multiple times? What does that have to do with an AIDS awareness program - a program that has the empowerment of women as a natural by-product?

What he showed here was that a physically more powerful and influential man has the ability, and the right, to kiss any woman he pleases.

Is this the message we want to send out to the audience of Indian men or international men?

Does Gere have any idea about the epidemic sexual harrassement that women face on Indian streets and public transport on a daily basis? If not, he should educate himself before he makes such a fool out of himself on Indian TV again. The visual message he sent out to Indian men sucks big time for women who are already facing an uphill struggle to get street harrassers and "eve teasers" to leave them alone or face legal consequences.

Isn't Gere already in a relationship with a woman? If so, what kind of message does his behaviour sent out to married/committed men?

Is Shilpa in a relationships? If so, why the hell is he kissing a woman who already has a man waiting for her at home?

Why did he automatically assume that an embrace, dip and kisses would be eagerly accepted by Shilpa - a woman almost half his age?

What kind of message does that send out to dirty old men seeking to harrass younger women on the streets?

His behaviour was arrogant and assanine. Not only from the perspective of conservative Indian culture but from the perspective of international feminist culture.

If they were a couple, no harm. But the fact that they are not, along with the fact that he is about double her age, sends the WRONG message out to men in general - and to Indian men in particular (since this was on Indian TV and Indian women already have enough problems with unwanted sexual advances as it is).

Perhaps the whole thing was pre-scripted to cause a raise and a stir. If so, tatastu. If not, it was lame, foolish and offenisive.

My problem with most Indians is their conservative Victorian thinking...If you read almost any book by William Dalrymple (he is currently the best-selling author in India) on late-medieval and pre-British India, it wouls be pretty clear that we were not bound by the kind of senseless morality that we have bound ourselves today in.

Pre Victorian Indian literature had the concept of "pati-vrata-dharma", women such as "Sati/Savitri" held up as ideals of womanhood (which they were, in context), and other such things. And let us not forget the honor which brahmacharies and sannyasins traditionally (and still do ) held in Bharatiyan culture, with it's high regard for sense control, celibacy and renunciation. The Victorian Brits with their stuffiness probably just added to an already closed sense of sexuality (particularly for women) amongst certain sections of Indian society.

I wouldn't say the Victorian Brits are solely responsible for modern Indian attitudes towards sexualtiy, however, they probably contributed, as well as the more repressive Medieval Islamic culture that India had going on. Add all these three together;

Hindu + Muslim + Christian conservative values = what you have today.

Both the Hindus and the Christians value celibacy. As do the Buddhists and Jains.
Muslims value the chastity of married women and the virginity of unmarrieds, as well as permitting polygamy for men but not for women.

How about these people protest the million's of women, who get felt up on buses every month? How about they try to find out, what make's a group of 100 guys sexually harass ONE WOMAN, on New Year's eve?

I wish these damn people would stop pretending like no one has sex and no one ever thinks about it. There is no other country on earth with a bigger sex probelm then India and it really pisses me off.

I agree but still think Gere's behaviour was misongynist, as was pointed out by another poster here.

Come on! It's 2007. When will women speaking out on serious issues ever be taken seriously if not now?

His behaviour was a throw back to the 1950's.

Richard is an ass - a BIG ass.
I'm not Indian and I'm not a conservative but I think that what he did was not only bad by Indian standards but very bad by western standards.
Granted, many women would love to get kissed and hugged by him but I doubt he got her permission first. What he did is called SEXUAL Harrassment. By all acounts they barely know eachother and what he did (or any man in the same situation) is sexual harrassment. You don't just jump on a woman you don't know in such a way.

Stupud, stupid man.

I'm really surprised at SM's take on this.
It's not appropriate for Gere to grab at Shilpa or any woman for that matter. The message is that he, as a man, can simply get away with invading a woman's space, and can do at a public function. Really not the message that he should be sending at an AIDS awareness function. Why on earth should he assume that he has the right to grab her? Would he do this to Ashley Judd at an AIDS awareness thing here? Who knows, maybe he would, idiot that he is.

sk, I could not agree more. I'm really surprised by the reactions of Indians here. Maybe I'm assuming wrong but most Indian posters here live abroad? I'm sure (or at least hope) that most know what sexual harassment is (which should actually be the same in all countries, including India) and what the norms are in the US or the UK, regarding behavior like his. I think that in any civilized place, a man coming on to a woman this way (a stranger to him or someone he isn't intimate with in real life), mauling her like that and holding her in a "death grip" is very frowned upon and even punishable by law. I saw the video and it actually looked a lot worse than the pics.

So, what makes this so innocuous? The fact that he's Mr. Gere "movie star"?

And for whoever said that this was just him pretending to be in a movie, maybe that's the problem. People like him don't know anymore where filming ends and real life begins, not to mention the feeling of entitlement such people have - it couldn't possibly be that a woman wouldn't dream of being touched and kissed by such a "god".

AND, nobody mentioned that the man is also MARRIED.

mauling her like that and holding her in a "death grip" is very frowned upon and even punishable by law.

This just in - an Indian court has ordered Gere's arrest...

A serious review and revamp of "obscenity laws" in India is in needed...

M. Nam

I'm really surprised at SM's take on this.

I'm really surprised at the number of people whose reading skills are subpar. The post stated that Gere's actions were wrong and then moved on because they weren't the point of the post. The effigy-burning-over-reaction was. But hey, people love to complain/shoot their mouths off thoughtlessly/bleat etc.

This is unbelievable > http://www.ktvu.com/entertainment/13181267/detail.html

This just in - an Indian court has ordered Gere's arrest...

what is wrong with my peeps? they didn't put out an arrest warrent for the Big Brother biggots who berated Shilpa for her ethnicity - but kiss the girl, and they'll burn your effigy?!

So denying sex exists didnt really help this overpopulated starving cowbelters mess. Did you think those masses came out of kissing cheeks?!?

Alas, look at europe, sex is a subject to freedom, and whoa, no overpopulation here and less poverty.

Geez wake up people! Thumbs up for filmmakers like MIRA NAIR to drag that out in the open!

Deanna,

How wonderful that you can personally attest to 3.3 million square kilometers (1.3 million square miles) of India being an"overpopulated starving cowbelters mess"

If you have a point - then make it without resorting to gross exaggeration

It's called humour!! He didn't rape her - he was just a celebrity putting on a show & pretending to overwhelm her with his charms...Shilpa Shetty is quite fortunate to get such a hug from Richard Gere - he's a lovely man. I was shocked to see what a fuss was made about this incident in India at first.....I love India but it's not healthy for any country to take its 'moral customs' to an extreme.