LOL...wow those are so astoundingly stupid and crass.

*gasp*.

I expended a lot of fury against the conservative publication on my campus, but I don't remember it being even close to as bad as this. Back then I think it was more fun for them to rail against feminists, and we'd already been over all those offensive stereotypes ad nauseum.

Oh yeah and in this case I think this is worth our time, because those Ivy League Twerps are the Future Leaders of America.

The fact that these people don't have the balls to ID themselves makes me believe that its just ivy twerps being ivy twerps, to quote Siddhartha. Fascists aren't such wimps. Not worth much discussion.

This read a lot like something the Cornell Review would do. (the paper of Ann Coulter) But It seems the Cornell American and the Cornell Review sort of switched roles. What sucked was the normal newspaper, the Cornell Daily Sun was sidelined (no school support, so it was a subscription, where as the review was free) Of course, this was years ago.

The review ran a cartoon years ago, poking fun at Akwekwon (the native american living center), basically saying it was a casino. Things like, "wake up to slot machine alarm clocks" and other barbs of that sort. It's nothing new, what was disturbing was an Indian-American (not American Indian) defending it. Cornell was a breeding ground for uncle tomery.

Ehhh - this is juvenile and silly and mildly amusing if one doesn't take it seriously, and honestly there's more worrisome obnoxiousness and bigotry out there. I'd let the Cornell student groups battle this one out, it's not really worth anyone else's time.

Hopefully this isn't going unnoticed on Cornell's campus. I know that anything like this wouldn't fly at most schools.

bunch of stupid wimps. thats it.

Meh, I went to the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, and the Orange and Blue Observer there (also a conservative-opinion paper) pulled highly visible stunts to get attention (such as holding a gun raffle for "homosexuals and females to protect themselves"

...I'm guessing these guys are the same way, and thusly, I think the SM community shouldn't bother with this one, god knows we have enough idiots spouting nonsense, and to give lowly papers like this coverage is useless.

Also, I'd like to raise the point that someone is going to pick this up and then say "Cornell's student newspaper" said this, and thus raise a maelstrom. And nobody, NOBODY should confuse this with The Cornell Daily Sun, just like nobody should confuse the Orange & Blue Observer with the Daily Illini.

* Camel Parking provided.

Haha! Get the joke? Islamazoids live in Arabia and ride on camels so the 'camel parking'. So witty.

Well, kittens? Whatcha think? Offensive? Ignorant? Intolerant? Stupid?

All of the above.

I blame comedy central for this. The channel features too many talented comics who can actually pull of this sort of islamo-centric humor and not come off as asses. Young impressionable morons at Cornell think they real funny and put out this shit. Hope they get it piled on them.

I blame comedy central for this. The channel features too many talented comics who can actually pull of this sort of islamo-centric humor and not come off as asses. Young impressionable morons at Cornell think they real funny and put out this shit. Hope they get it piled on them.

I disagree, Comedy Central has featured progressive, "non-traditional" comedians from the Axis of Evil

Mola, dude, really??

Flag-burning on Ho Plaza

Huh? Is that a shout out to Don Imus?

Well, kittens? Whatcha think? Offensive? Ignorant? Intolerant? Stupid?

Not worth our time?

There is a danger of giving a group of self-evidently intellectual lightweights more than their allotted 15 minutes of fame.

I think it's a liberal conspiracy to pose as conservatives and make them look like stupid, juvenile, hate mongering bigots. Someone needs to do something about these darn liberals.

Problematic. Agree with desishiksa -- these are the future leaders of America. Plus, some/many of them could go on to be in positions to hire/fire, arrest/detain, allow entry/deport, finance/reject... Shouldn't pass without culpability. Yes, racism is multi-layered and tightly woven into the fabric of our world; yes, it's difficult to address all levels, but when "common assumptions" like these (from Ivy Leaguers) pass without challenge, or get dismissed as comedic/simple twerpery, it leaves the door open for more aggressive, less comedic intimidation.

Hard to criticise the authors of the satire when there are news stories like these floating around.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article1695718.ece

when embassies can be burned over cartoons, surely a few heads will roll over an article like this?Maybe that's when they didnt want to be identified?

Looks like the newspaper is no stranger to offending, because they wrote this a while back.

Good satire of religion and extremism is good --- straight up demonisation is the sign of a lower and crude mind. This is what gives it away the most I reckon:

Camel Parking provided.

If it was even funny you might concede them something for their wit, but this is the worst --- a low and crude mind that tries to be funny and fails.

Like I said, there's a good way to satirise Islamic extremism without demonising, but I guess the moral climate lets this slide. You can generalise about Muslims and to a lesser extent, any brown people and religions, in ways that would be called for being anti-semitic and racist if you applied the same system of thought to, say Jewish or Black people.

Flag-burning on Ho Plaza

Ho Plaza is the area in front of the main student center.

Mola, dude, really??

Of course, The Daily Show and Colbert (each with over 1.1M nightly viewers) are among the largest ad revenue generators for Viacom.

Hard to criticise the authors of the satire when there are news stories like these floating around.

Rubbish. You think it's hard to criticise a bunch of humourless half-wits who demonise and resort to racist stereotypes and collective stigmatisation because of the actions of an extremist minority? Satirise the extremists, try and do it with at least some genuine wit and originality, instead of revealing a lower mind of crude and witless prejudice.

No desi angle in this. There is a Muslim angle, but they are middle-eastern Muslims.

Yeah, there is a big problem with the Cornell American article: it isn't funny.

If you're going to be offensive, you have to be funny. "Camel-parking"?! -- It's embarrasing that Cornell produces such unfunny "humour".

"Runner-up gets a goat" is the best line, and it's only funny because goats are inherently humourous.

No desi angle in this.

The desi angle is that some desis are Muslim.

No desi angle in this.

Plus, I already stated a desi had defended a similarly offensive article/cartoon in the Cornell Review years back.

No desi angle in this. There is a Muslim angle, but they are middle-eastern Muslims.

And yet, desis are constantly confused with such muslims. I dream of the day when bigots get the communities they wish to hate straight.

No, seriously, Red Snapper is exactly right. Let's not conflate "desi" with "Hindu" or anything else intolerant please.

I thought Cornell was for smart people.

Why are these people hanging around a liberal cesspool when they should be in Iraq fighting the Islamofacists?

Also, to many, India is in the Middle East and we're all muslims.

Ugh.

It's worth going after them because they're learning over there at Cornell, and this is part of the education process. Don Imus didn't get away with it; I fail to see why these fools shouldn't at least feel stupid in public. Even with no attribution to a specific writer, a select few people on the staff did come up with this, and a sufficient outcry might make them rethink this kind of idiocy.

I'm not saying "bully the poor college kids," I'm saying "rub their noses in it so they don't make a mess on the rug again."

Oops. Did I just make an analogy between the staff of the Cornell American and dogs that poop on the rug? Well, I'm sure it was just done in jest. No harm done!

Well, kittens? Whatcha think? Offensive? Ignorant? Intolerant? Stupid? Not worth our time? SO worth our time?

I vote "not worth our time." The real problem here is that apparently even Ivy League students aren't smart enough to try being funny without reverting to the usual tired racial stereotypes.

If anyone wants to talk to the immediately affected parties:

http://sao.cornell.edu/SO/search.php?igroup=201&year=organizations

The funny thing is that in other parts of the world, there are much worse things written about americans,christians and western culture.

Yet despite many people here being american, living in western country, and some even being christian, there is little outrage.

Clueless:

To that end, I offer the following paraphrasing of the sermon on the Mount, namely, "remove the plank from your own eye." It's a lot easier to occupy the moral high ground that way. And also, yes, people are prejudiced everywhere, and make racial, ethnic, and religious slurs constantly. We can help shape and guide things best from our own backyard first, it seems to me.

Clueless

So because some people elsewhere write stupid things about America, people should shut up about the demonisation of Muslims and others that occurs in America or the UK or wherever? That's the upshot of what your argument is, which you repeat like a mantra whenever a post on any subject similar to this comes up. It's a classic tu quoque fallacy made even more egregious by the fact that you indirectly accuse Sepia Mutiny and its readers of what, being complicit with the inverse of this demonisation by people abroad when they speak of America? The SM people do not support the demonisation or rhetoric of anti-Americans anywhere, so why do you bring it up?

The funny thing is that in other parts of the world, there are much worse things written about americans,christians and western culture.

So... we should stoop to their level, then?

"The desi angle is that some desis are Muslim."

While that is true, it is the references to Jimmy Carter, Palestine, camels, stoning and beheading that made me feel they were satirizing the Middle East.

However, I will drop the issue.

I have a somewhat different take on this from most other people on this board. Very few people on this board have (I think) been in such close proximity to poverty as I; have smelt the stink of flop-sweat or seen the raw anger of young men who just cannot get a break - despite all their honesty and their willingness to work - on account of the poverty that they have been born into. A vast number of the wife-beatings, embassy-burnings, stone-throwings that have graduated into bomb-throwings, etc., are, in overwhelmingly many cases, the acts of angry young men. I do not defend any of these; I just wish to point out two things:

a) Very few of us who are so quick to satirise know that the despair can feel like a kick in the stomach; and

b) There is, fundamentally, nothing particularly Islamic about the embassy-burnings, stone-throwings, etc.

In support of (b): despite all that I have said, angry, poverty-stricken young men will not easily take to the streets to engage in organised acts of violence. A certain radicalisation -- usually stemming from issues completely unrelated to poverty -- is needed for "organised acts of violence" to take place. In a certain portion of the Middle East, the Israel-Palestine conflict provides that radicalisation. If embassy-burnings, etc., etc., were a peculiarly Islamic thing, we should have been seeing a lot of those in Kuwait, in Saudi Arabia, or in the U.A.E. But we don't.

What makes me want to weep when I see satire of the Mohammed comic-strip or the Cornell American provenance is that they are, ultimately, an expression of the nasty, self-satisfied laughter of the comfortably off towards their considerably less-fortunate brethren. It is so very, very uncompassionate.

So because some people elsewhere write stupid things about America, people should shut up about the demonisation of Muslims and others that occurs in America or the UK or wherever? That's the upshot of what your argument is, which you repeat like a mantra whenever a post on any subject similar to this comes up. It's a classic tu quoque fallacy made even more egregious by the fact that you indirectly accuse Sepia Mutiny and its readers of what, being complicit with the inverse of this demonisation by people abroad when they speak of America? The SM people do not support the demonisation or rhetoric of anti-Americans anywhere, so why do you bring it up?

As an example, this reminded me of an old Soviet joke.

Dissident: The Soviet Union is a Repressive dictatorship that only pays lip service to workers' rights; in fact it enslaves workers who have no say or power in the workplace and as such at the mercy of the Soviet bureaucracy

Commissar: What about the lynchings in the South in the U.S?

However, I will drop the issue

Gee! Thanks!

What I am more shocked and angered about is that some of this idiots will get a job on wall street after there "degree from IVY league" (although the degree is in American History but no matter) and will "manage" MY 401k money. MY money !!! And some financial institutions charge a percentage of retirement savings as fee for running the retirement plan. This is a LOOT of my money by effing morons and I cant do anything about it.

What makes me want to weep when I see satire of the Mohammed comic-strip or the Cornell American provenance is that they are, ultimately, an expression of the nasty, self-satisfied laughter of the comfortably off towards their considerably less-fortunate brethren.

This is why comedy works primarily when it's directed at a deserving target. As someone pointed out earlier, it would be much more effective if the comedy was directed at those who are extremists, because they really don't have any moral ground on which to stand.

The funny thing is that in other parts of the world, there are much worse things written about americans,christians and western culture.

And you secretly love them, because you hate America. Don't think I don't see through it.

Terrorist attacks are political, why then continue to carp about religion? Unless there's something to divert attention from.. It seems so elementary!

All of the above! :)

That is to say, it's Offensive, Ignorant, Intolerant, Stupid, Not worth your time, *AND* less interesting than whether or not Abhi’s outfit was lame! (I didn't think it was *that* bad? At least it matched the outfit of the new Mrs. Bachchan?)

I can't help but wonder, if this article was written about the Jewish community...would it go under the radar for even half a day?

MY 401k money. MY money !!! And some financial institutions charge a percentage of retirement savings as fee for running the retirement plan. This is a LOOT of my money by effing morons and I cant do anything about it.

rc: you can choose to put your 401k $$ in an index fund with minimal fees (trust me, no wall street bigshot spends his time managing an index fund). all the fees for the variety of funds offerred in a 401k will be laid out in the prospectus. the market is your friend.

To Clueless @ #34: Could you stop being so blitheringly disingenuous, please ? The reason why so many Mutineers get outraged about the demonisation of minorities in America, by Americans, is because: a) Mutineers believe in the adage that charity begins at home; and b) they are knowledgable about American history, of which you seem ignorant (that, or you have succeeded in taking disingenousness to radical extremes). Concerning (b): there was a time, not too long ago, when certain minorities in the U.S. faced more than mere demonisation. Would you like to try how it feels being dragged to death tied to a pickup truck, or having your testicles being stuffed down your throat ? These things have occurred, and systematically so, sufficiently recently in American history that many sensitive Americans feel that viigilance is necessary, lest demonisation lead, yet again, to worse things. I suspect you know all this. But if not, could you get this through your thick skull, Clueless ?

I can't help but wonder, if this article was written about the Jewish community...would it go under the radar for even half a day?

Not even half a second. Many of the old Cornell Review staff were Jewish themselves, when the Review became more of a politically conservative publication (rather than social), I'm sure many of them jumped ship to the Cornell American. But even otherwise, it wouldn't be tolerated to say the least.

This is a LOOT of my money by effing morons and I cant do anything about it.

now, if you were talking about social security, you may have a point.

The Imugi -- Abhi's get up was bland white pasta next to Aish's flaming biryani. Come to think of it, not many could stand next to TMBWITW and not come off looking frumpy.

GB I'm well aware of the racial problems in the history of the United States. The United States is like every other damn country in the world, where being a minority is hard. GB can you please tell the name of country where being a minority is easy.

GB I'm well aware of the racial problems in the history of the United States. The United States is like every other damn country in the world, where being a minority is hard. GB can you please tell the name of country where being a minority is easy.

Dissident: The Soviet Union is a Repressive dictatorship that only pays lip service to workers' rights; in fact it enslaves workers who have no say or power in the workplace and as such at the mercy of the Soviet bureaucracy

Commissar: What about the lynchings in the South in the U.S?

Dissident: What does that have to do with my argument?

Commissar: Being poor and powerless is difficult in every country, including in our great republic. Quit complaining

The joke continues.....

So Clueless, I'm curious...at what point do you feel a publication is worthy of getting fired up about? Is there a threshold of offensiveness that is agreed upon?

GB:

What makes me want to weep when I see satire of the Mohammed comic-strip or the Cornell American provenance is that they are, ultimately, an expression of the nasty, self-satisfied laughter of the comfortably off towards their considerably less-fortunate brethren. It is so very, very uncompassionate.

Bingo. You've nailed it. That's it, exactly.

I don't have much compassion for someone who blows up a bus to make a political point. I understand it, but I don't empathize. On the other hand, I completely empathize with people who feel powerless or are disenfranchised or marginalized by governments, an aristocracy or a privileged elite, or a corporate or other organizational entity.

In fact, I think huge parts of the world systematically attempt to do this all the time, sometimes deliberately and with forethought, and sometimes totally inadvertantly.

And I think the majority of Mutineers find that kind of injustice deplorable, whether it's perpetrated by Americans, browns, or some other ethnicity, either here in the U.S. or abroad.

The Daily Sun is a good paper. I thought the Review was most hilarious. I was wrong. RC, you can choose to save your money any way you like. People take it to Wall St. only because they want it to grow as much as possible.

Absolutely right in #28, Intern.

My guess as to what happening on the Cornell campus regarding this article - almost nothing. Some orgs will make some noise and then everyone will forget it. The university/advertisers will not threaten the Cornell American with withdrawal of funding (I'm guessing it's supported by the univ/ads since it's free).

I sort of deem this as being unfunny where there was opportunity to be conservative and funny and not worthy of attention. I'd prefer to wait and see how the students or other people on campus get offended if at all and how they choose to react to this. I haven't been a student in well over a decade but am well aware that kids grow up and often change their mind when they get to real life and adulthood. Every student who has a passionate and radical viewpoint even if mixed with being young and stupid should be allowed the opportunity to voice it and stand up for it or apologize for it. Pulling a stunt like this means drawing party lines rather clearly. It should be interesting to see if it conjures up debate on campus and who falls where.

I'm From Brazil...
Very Good you Blog..

I second Janofalltrades' suggestion. I went to Cornell and never even heard of the Cornell American until this. This might be one to keep local for now, but I hope someone on campus blows up their spot...

I can't help but wonder, if this article was written about the Jewish community...would it go under the radar for even half a day?

Of course not -- there are laws against anti-Semitism in most countries. Not to mention that a high number of Ivy League twerps are Jewish. So the Jewish-thing is an extreme, but I'm wondering how this would have gone down if it were about East Asians or Hispanics.

I wasn't in the country before 9/11 -- those who were, what was the state of Islamophobia then?

As a Muslim,I find this kind of humour just not funny, and I'm not really offended. There are people with good hearts on Sepia Mutiny but Sepia Mutiny needs to be cleaned up before they get angry at other organisations for their stupidity. There is a LOT of anti-Muslim rhetoric here (I've been checking the site out since late 2005). I've read posts where it didn't even have to do with Islam but somehow or another one of these Hindutva type clowns started posting all these hadiths to implicate Islam was a bad religion and that Muslims are all terrorists and rapists of their fair Hindu maidens or whatever hate filled narratives they beleive in. I know there's a lot of good people who are at least fair and try to be objective with their comments. I'm not asking anyone to praise Islam here, but the hate has to be censored more consistently...people have been deleted for lesser offences here.

Unfortunately negativity sells and has a much stronger push factor than positivity with its pull factor. This is a site for South Asians ideally, and Muslims are a significant part of the South Asian diaspora, yet I could probably count on my fingers the Muslims who write here or express their opinions here. There is a reason for that...I am usually turned off by the vitriol and venom spewed here, and I'm sure other Muslims are too. I've had more constructive dialogues with white conservatives than most desi on forums...it's just really disappointing.

I am glad though that people are pointing out that things are happening to Muslims in this country,and I hope it continues.

The funny thing is that in other parts of the world, there are much worse things written about americans,christians and western culture.

If you live in "other parts of the world" you should totally say something about these terrible things. But I don't see how that's connected to racism here in the States.

Evil anywhere excuses evil everywhere, I guess.

How immature, and crass- is this what one of America's 'top' universities creates and condones to an extent? Quite the scholars and intellects these kids are.

Ouch...this makes me so ashamed to be from Cornell. I do want to point out this is not representative of the campus, though.

#47 Manju,

I dont know how long you have been working, but if you have not started a retirement plan here's 401k LOOT that no company tells you
The republican model of putting everyone into 401k plan is a BOON for some IVY league privileged kids. We have no choice but to invest in 401k because thats the only Tax effective way to save for retirement. So some History graduates are going to be continue to be rich.

I can't help but wonder, if this article was written about the Jewish community...would it go under the radar for even half a day?

Of course not -- there are laws against anti-Semitism in most countries. Not to mention that a high number of Ivy League twerps are Jewish. So the Jewish-thing is an extreme, but I'm wondering how this would have gone down if it were about East Asians or Hispanics.

But why is the Jewish thing an extreme? Just because they have a greater presence in the area? I don't see how my example is any more extreme than it being written about Islam.

52. clueless
"GB I'm well aware of the racial problems in the history of the United States. The United States is like every other damn country in the world, where being a minority is hard. GB can you please tell the name of country where being a minority is easy."

Well its kind of strange that the Parsis were never persecuted in India. This community often fared better than their majority Hindu neighbours but somehow escaped the wrath of Shiva. Its an interesting story about how Parsis landed in desh

- the story i always heard was how the desi king said we are so very overpopulated and cannot sustain you folks. Then the parsi headman asks for a glass of milk and adds sugar to it and says, " we shall be the sugar in the milk, disolve and add sweetness". nice story though wikipedia doesnt talk about it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsee
" The immigrants were granted permission to stay by the local ruler Jadi Rana on the condition that they adopt the local language (Gujarati); that their women adopt local dress (the Sari); and that they henceforth cease to bear arms (Hodivala, 1920).

From a superficial 21st century point of view, some of these ithoter (Gujarati: questions) are remarkably trivial - for instance, Rivayat 376: whether ink prepared by a non-Zoroastrian is suitable for copying Avestan language texts - but they provide a discerning insight into the fears and anxieties of the early modern Zoroastrians. Thus, the question of the ink is symptomatic of the fear of assimilation and the loss of identity; a theme that dominates the questions posed and continues to be an issue into the 21st century. So also the question of conversion of Juddins (non-Zoroastrians) to Zoroastrianism, to which the reply (R237, R238) was: acceptable, even meritorious. (Dhalla, 1938:474-475)

Nonetheless, "the precarious condition in which they lived for a considerable period made it impracticable for them to keep up their former proselytizing zeal. The instinctive fear of disintegration and absorption in the vast multitudes among whom they lived created in them a spirit of exclusiveness and a strong feeling for the preservation of the racial characteristics and distinctive features of their community. Living in an atmosphere surcharged with the Hindu caste system, they felt that their own safety lay in encircling their fold by rigid caste barriers" (Dhalla, 1938:474). Even so, at some point (perhaps not long after their arrival in India), the Zoroastrians - perhaps determining that the social stratification that they had brought with them was unsustainable in the small community - did away with all but the hereditary priesthood (called the asronih in Sassanid Iran). The remaining estates - the (r)atheshtarih (nobility, soldiers, and civil servants), vastaryoshih (farmers and herdsmen), hutokshih (artisans and laborers) - were folded into an all-comprehensive class today known as the behdini ("followers of daena", for which "good religion" is one translation). This change would have far reaching consequences. For one, it opened the gene pool to some extent since until that time inter-class marriages were exceedingly rare (this would continue to be a problem for the priesthood until the 20th century). For another, it did away with the boundaries along occupational lines, a factor that would enamour the Parsis to the 18th and 19th century British colonial authorities who had little patience for the unpredictable complications of the Hindu caste system (such as a clerk from one caste who would not deal with a clerk from another)."

And they have contributed so much to India...from the freedom struggle (Naroji), to industry (Tatas,Godrej), entertainment (Freddie Mercury, Zubin Mehta,Rohinton Mistry)

Mahatma Gandhi would note in a much misquoted statement, "I am proud of my country, India, for having produced the splendid Zoroastrian stock, in numbers beneath contempt, but in charity and philanthropy perhaps unequalled and certainly unsurpassed" (Rivetna, 2002).

ok enough of Parsi loving. Them with funny names like Engineer, Contractor, Churiwallah. I have a Parsi bashing tale to relate. I was in Maharastra and went to a Parsi Fire temple on Navroze but the priest said non-parsis are not allowed. Hell, i was outraged. Who let these Persians in? Did we never have anti-Parsi riots? How did the Shiv Sena miss out on these foreigners? Arent these Persian cousins of the fatwa spewing Ayotollahs?

What does it take for the majority to persecute the minority? How does the minority assimilate without trouble? What degree of assimilation? The Parsis are dying out but still hold on to their identity. Why has India been nice to some of its minorities? Ask the Parsis, Jews, Bahais? Are they just too miniscule to raise hackles of the aam biradari?

Bang Gully I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. The Critism of christanity here is alot higher then Islam on this website.

But why is the Jewish thing an extreme? Just because they have a greater presence in the area? I don't see how my example is any more extreme than it being written about Islam.

It's not so much greater physical presence, as it is people in influential roles, and hence ability to "bite back." A significant Jewish contingent makes up the Review staff, and I'd imagine the American as well, but can't fully confirm.

I remember when the A&F "Two wongs don't make a right" T-shirt extravaganza was unfolding, Asians said if A&F really had the guts, they'd lampoon the African Americans, but would never do that, because Sharpton and Jackson would be at their door the next day.

If they would have gone after the Jewish minority, they wouldn't even have a door.

Marlon Brando said this on Larry King:

"We've seen the n*gg*r, we've seen the greaseball, we've seen the ch*nk, we've seen the slit-eyed dangerous Jap, we've seen the wily Filipino. We've seen everything, but we've never seen the k*ke"

Now, while his intentions and position as a white male Christian put his statement clearly in the "Anti Semetic Fascist" category, he's subtextually, asking the same question of "Why are Jews untouchable?"

After what the Jews endured in Europe, it's no surprise the community has coalesced in this manner.

Bang Gully,

Everybody whines about the Sepia Mutiny:
(*) A mutineer complained that Amardeep makes excuses for the Congress whenever the discussion turns to the BJP.
(*) There is criticism of Christians.
(*) There is criticism of brahmins.
(*) Spoor Lam parodies Moor Nam mercilessly.
(*) There is a complaint that if the blog is about a women, the seventh post will be about her `hotness'.
(*) The second generation complains about the `aunties' and `uncles'.

The only ones spared of criticism are:
(*) atheists
(*) dalits
(*) Siddharth (perhaps the most formidable debator in this forum)

This is a good place to sharpen your debating skills. Even if you lose, you are behind an anonymous handle. Stop lurking, start posting.

HMF wrote:

It's not so much greater physical presence, as it is people in influential roles, and hence ability to "bite back." A significant Jewish contingent makes up the Review staff, and I'd imagine the American as well, but can't fully confirm.

Ahh, that makes sense. It's just a shame though that there can't be an equal standard for all minorities.

clueless- I have seen the criticism of Christianity on Sepia Mutiny and on Christians in general, however most of it is directed towards the actions of non-desi Christians. I don't see people trying to put down Jesus (aws) and try to discredit him, or state things like "Indian Christians are threats to the cultural integrity of Bharat), explicitly or implicitly. Take for example, that the writer of this thread even is an Indian Christian, and she has written, quite eloquently I might add, about her experiences as an Indian Christian.Thankfully for her, nobody came in to condemn her religion or anything. However, I highly doubt the same would happen here if a desi Muslim were to open themselves up, positives as well as negatives. There's probably two reasons for that:

a) There are tons of blogs where Muslims engage with other Muslims about issues pertaining to them.
b) Nobody wants to engage with dialouge with people who gnash and grind their teeth whenever Islam comes up.

I'm saying this is unfortunate because Muslims make up a significant part of desi America that is not represented here. Put it like this, the Muslims that do come here are admittedly no longer Muslims and they even hate Muslims so I don;t know if that helps you see what I'm saying. There's a reason they're here and can openly express their hate because it's all good in here for that specific form of hate to be expressed.

And before anybody says, "wah wah wah stop playing the victim here" , I'm gonna tell you to shut up and read. I am not complaining, all I am saying is that it is unfortunate that a site for Desi Americans creates an atmosphere where Muslims (who form a significant and I would say dynamic part of the desi diaspora) who are not "extremists" don't feel welcome.

I wish there was more discussion of the Muslim Desi American experience in "mainstream" Desi-Western fora too. I'm not Muslim, but I can only begin to imagine what it must have been like for people from this background in the States, without even the national community backing you up. This blog has been pretty diverse (straight men and women, a "half-Desi" man, a gay man, a vocal conservative, etc...) but it seems that (as far as I know), this very important cultural fault line has not been explored. That's too bad.

I wish there was more discussion of the Muslim Desi American experience in "mainstream" Desi-Western fora too. I'm not Muslim, but I can only begin to imagine what it must have been like for people from this background in the States, without even the national community backing you up.

Recently coming from a southern "red-neck" type of area in USA where i befriended some arab muslims, my impression was that in such areas, if the muslims are "hot" looking, people are drawn to them in a positive way. I saw them being automatically accepted whereas the less attractive of the lot were relegated to suspicious feelings and mistrust being directed towards them from the same section.

southern "red-neck" type of area?????

I guess it ok to stereotype to the southern United States. Last time I checked the South in the United States as made alot of process in the last 40 years.

yeah progress...as of yesterday

Students attend school's first integrated prom, Georgia
"But not everyone in the town of 4,400, famous for its peanuts and Fire Ant Festival, was breaking with the past.
The "white prom" still went on last week."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/23/turner.prom/index.html

I'm guessing that was sarcasm, clueless...

I dont know how long you have been working, but if you have not started a retirement plan here's 401k LOOT that no company tells you The republican model of putting everyone into 401k plan is a BOON for some IVY league privileged kids. We have no choice but to invest in 401k because thats the only Tax effective way to save for retirement. So some History graduates are going to be continue to be rich.

rc: 401ks are all about choice. the expense ratios of the various funds w/i the 401k are made public. you may choose to avoid the bulk of expenses if you go with an index fund, which will charge you less than .5% of all your assets. you may choose to go with some of the higher fees (ususally around 2%) in hopes of a higher return from active management. since they--the ivy league history majors who are racist--get paid a % of assets under management, they have a vested interest in incresing the value of your fund. your interests and theirs are alligned.

you may also choose a money market account or savings account to avoid wall st altogether or bond fund (very low fees) and the 401k is also portable, you can roll it over into an ira when you leave your job and invest it the way you choose. use charles schwab if you are fee concious.

the smart money article touches on points that have very little to do with wall st fees (use of annuities, sharing fees with employers, administrative costs.) but needless to say, the 401k, (like discount brokerage, mutual funds, and index funds) has been a great boon to average americans. i've seen schoolteachers become multimillioaires.

i guarantee your 401k has an S&P index (probably vanguard) fund. Put your money there and forget about it. don't panic if the market crashes, it will rebound. the fees are very low and there is no active management so no one, racist or otherwise, is getting rich of your account. In 30yrs, after you see the magic of compound interst mated to wall st returns, you'll love me more than your wife. trust me, i'm right.

This thread has drifted a bit, but comment #72 is an argument for a Sepia Pakistan. A seperate site for a separate nation! Of course, the irony of 'bang gully' arguing for Pakistan is not lost ... (a new Suhrawardy for the digital age! ).

More seriously, I don't think SepiaMutiny is a congenial space for discussion of Muslim Desi-American issues, and while that is too bad, its partly a function of the generally Hinducentric, Indo-centric people who read and comment here. Not much the site authors can do about it, nor should they feel obligated to.

(For erstwhile East Pakistanis, American or otherwise, Addafication.com is a good blog).

This blog has been pretty diverse (straight men and women, a "half-Desi" man, a gay man, a vocal conservative, etc...) but it seems that (as far as I know), this very important cultural fault line has not been explored. That's too bad.

You know what else is too bad? Being negative when there is no need-- the "gay man" you refer to was Muslim and so was extra-popular guest blogger Taz, who is Bangladeshi-American.

And as for you Bang Gully, I'd push back and say that

a) anti-Muslim comments AND anything even remotely Hindutva-esque is the shit that gets shut down and condemned the fastest on this site-- notice the unending popularity of Spoor Lam, a character who only exists to make Hindu fundamentalists seem like sputtering morons (no hate from me-- I love SL).

b) there have been tendencies to conflate being Indian with being Hindu here. It gets called out because EVERYTHING stupid does, if someone "active" is awake. Every "minority" group has been hated on via the comments section here, so complaining about oppression is amusing at best, annoying at worst. Desi christians HAVE been slammed here as not being Indian enough etc (but maybe they covered that in 2004, which is when I started reading). At one point, Anna got slammed for not being Christian enough-- which leads to my REAL point...nothing this blog does is good enough of pleases enough people.

c) I think a lot of my brown Muslim friends go out of their way to i.d. as Muslim first, Pakistani second for example. There's this desire to affiliate with the middle east versus the dirty south (asia). What the heck is this site supposed to do about THAT? Ah, yes. Another no-win situation.

d) The "this site needs to be policed more"/"others have been banned for doing less than whatever i find so objectionable yet what offends me didn't get someone banned" routine is unproductive and unrealistic. This is a site run by volunteers. They are human. Humans are imperfect. They also can't moderate 24/7. This might lead to a situation where someone pissed you offf and didn't get banned-- but did you think about the anti-Muslim spew that was deleted before you could even see it? Sometimes, what goes on here is just as important as what doesn't, whether or not you are aware of it.

/off soap box

I guess it ok to stereotype to the southern United States.

I'm with you cluedude, how dare anyone say anything against the progressive South? It's not like this, this this, and this represent the true south!

I guess it ok to bring up the negative parts of the southern United States. Funny I could bring up examples of everything about this Cornell article and say it's the truth about Islam.

Clueless, I think what you are saying is righteous. And I am no fan of the South, but I can still appreciate you for trying to do what you're doing.

Ignorance or intolerance under a post which questions both things is...interesting.

Lurking Lemur Lover, I'm sorry I forgot the religious IDs of Taz and sin. This was not an attempt to attack the blog or be "needlessly negative". My apologies, seriously.

I also don't hold the views you talk about on points b-d. I mean, I know they're general points but I just want to make that clear.

While I don't think the Hinduvta situation is QUITE as clear as you make it out to be (I think advocacy of Hindu extremism goes on a little longer without action here than similar Islamic or Christian views would), I agree that there's at least a diversity of views here on Hinduism.

Clueless: Thank you for defending the white man/christians/america/the south. We need more brave people like you. You speak truth to power, brother. You are the Sepia Martin Luthra.

Funny I could bring up examples of everything about this Cornell article and say it's the truth about Islam.

Really? I'd like to see where exactly in Islam it says construction of IEDs are authorized? However, to say the South has nurtured hatred, racism and bigotry, and been quite vocal about it, for quite some time is not "ignorance" or "intolerance". It's fact stating. This doesn't turn every other place north and west of Mississippi into Disneyland. But let's be real here.

AMFD I'm not defending the south/white man. I'm just tired of double standard here when it comes to islam and christanity.

I rather take my chances living in Alabama or Arkansas as a brown man, any day over being an infidel or kafir in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Iran,

and while that is too bad, its partly a function of the generally Hinducentric, Indo-centric people who read and comment here.

Of the American diaspora in general. Indians outnumber Pakistanis 12 to 1. I would say Muslims are underrepresented among the Indian diaspora as well, while Christians, Sikhs and Jains are overrepresented. That being said, your comment is unfair. There are sites and blogs that deserve the label "Hinducentric." SM is not one of them.

Manju,
I did not start working in last 5 years like the majority of posters here. I dont want to date myself but I have been around and know deeply how wall street works. I am not ideological like you, I dont care about right wing or left wing, I just care about my money. I hate it when someone takes my money away with shady underhand deals.

Lurking Lemur Lover, I'm sorry I forgot the religious IDs of Taz and sin. This was not an attempt to attack the blog or be "needlessly negative". My apologies, seriously.

Oh, np. It's nice of you to handle me that way. I was a little fired up. ;)

I also don't hold the views you talk about on points b-d. I mean, I know they're general points but I just want to make that clear.

No, they're actually not general, they are specifically meant for Bang Gully, whom I thought was wrong on a lot of things.

While I don't think the Hinduvta situation is QUITE as clear as you make it out to be (I think advocacy of Hindu extremism goes on a little longer without action here than similar Islamic or Christian views would),

I do think it's that clear; witness how quickly saffron-colored news items on the news tab get axed. And now I'll go back to pondering the other part of what I quoted from you, because I don't think I've ever seen real Islamic or Christian extremist rhetoric on here. If it seems like "similar" Islamic stuff gets addressed asap, it's often because those comments will also break commenting guidelines more egregiously whereas some of the hindutva stuff...well it's a fine line between moderation and censorship, and I think if for example, there's no hate speech mixed in there, it might just stand.

I'm sorry, I genuinely realize, with no sarcasm intended, that the "article" was hurtful and exploits all the worst stereotypes about Muslims.

Nevertheless, I laughed at the beauty paegeant thing.

CS

I rather take my chances living in Alabama or Arkansas as a brown man, any day over being an infidel or kafir in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Iran,

So as long as they dont treat you as bad in Alabama as they treat non-muslims in Saudi Arabia, you will be happy with your treatment in Alabama?

You are well on your way to becoming a troll here. If thats the role you see fit for yourself, then more power to you.

Clueless: The very fact that everytime a brown man is put down and somebody complains, you feel incumbant upon yourself to bring up the fact that some other browns are worse off in some country half way across the world, its clear that at a certain level you dont believe that brown people belong here. They are always the other. They are perpetual foreigners who should be grateful to whatever rights they are accorded to in the US and if they complain they should me made aware of the plight of people of similar color half way across the world with whom they have nothing in common but the color of their skin.
This, my friend, is a pathological self hatred which you need to address.

incumbant*= incumbent

Okay, back to your respective corners, you heavyweights. Get some water squirted at yer face, etc.

rc:

you don't know what you're talking about. you're using some bizarre victim ideology to argue that ivy league history majors are looting your money and there's nothing you can do about it when the very 401k plans you talk about offer choices that allow you to avoid wall street money managers altogether.

the last thing all minorities here in the US need is to be afraid of the market.

now, you say all you care about is making money and i've given you some very specific advice on how to get market returns while avoiding the fees. take it and begone.

'southern "red-neck" type of area in USA where i befriended some arab muslims'

So they are allowed in that area? ;)

AMFD my problem is when people who live in America/Canada/Western Europe and they talk about how bad things are here all the time in there new country and instead talk about how great things are back in the "homeland".

AMFD my problem is when people who live in America/Canada/Western Europe and they talk about how bad things are here all the time in there new country and instead talk about how great things are back in the "homeland".

Ikram- I have no idea what you're talking about, bruh. I'm not arguing here for a seperate forum here for Muslims. Just when Muslim issues do pop up, the hate is strong. That's all. I admitted that one reason a lot of Muslims don't post here is because theres tons of other blogs/forums for them to express their views. All I'm saying is that the site is not representative of a lot of people and Muslims numerically are significant in India and form the majority in two countries in South Asia, maybe three if you want to count Afghanistan. That's a big chunk you're missing out on. Now if the people running the site don't care, that's fine, then they should call it Bharat Mutiny or Hindu Mutiny or whatever. They don't seem to express that sentiment and wish to be inclusive, but their efforts are being hampered by a lot of ignorant people. So before they get on Cornell Review or whatever, they gotta check themselves.

Lemur- I thank you for bringing up the fact that a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment is banned and I am appreciative. I also understand that it is a hard job to do, and everything can't be checked. Nevertheless, when you set those high standards of trying to include everybody, you're gonna expect criticism when it fails to live up to that. One thing I would like to see and would probably help us all ignore the negativity and ignorance is if the site were revamped where if you responded to someone it would lead to a different chain so two people can argue amongst themselves while the rest of us focused on the topic. Okayplayer.com has this set up and although it doesnt stop people from posting stupidity, it does help to keep focus and ignore them. The way it is now, when I go to reply to someone, theres like 5 negative posts before I even hit "post" totally messing up the rhythm of the thread.

Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery - I'm new here to SM but I don't think Clueless's argument is trolling - it just appears to be his view.

As for defending the South - I'm from the South (NC) and yeah, sometimes it's annoying to see overgeneralizations of the South - ; I think Clueless has a point here when someone pointed out that "South has nurtured hatred, racism and bigotry, and been quite vocal about it, for quite some time is not "ignorance" or "intolerance". It's fact stating." " - Isn't this commenter (HMF) doing the exact same thing that she/he is accusing Clueless of.

Parts of Southern culture and interpretations of southern culture has nurtured bigotry, but so has interpretations of Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, etc. Coming from the South I'm annoyed with HMF's statement and the irony of it as she/he tries to protest generalized views of Islam.

Now if the people running the site don't care, that's fine, then they should call it Bharat Mutiny or Hindu Mutiny or whatever. They don't seem to express that sentiment and wish to be inclusive, but their efforts are being hampered by a lot of ignorant people. So before they get on Cornell Review or whatever, they gotta check themselves.

Seriously, you are so wrong on every level. This site gets abuse from right wing Hindus for being anti-Hindu, and now you come along claiming it is some kind of incubator for Hindu nationalism. Your comment about them needing to rename themselves Bharat Mutiny or Hindu Mutiny is really snide and obnoxious for so many reasons. They work overtime to make this site welcoming to all, so they certainly don't need to 'check themselves'.

Nevertheless, when you set those high standards of trying to include everybody, you're gonna expect criticism when it fails to live up to that

Maybe. Or maybe we need to check our expectations? This is an entertaining, ad-free site with a small community of regulars who seem intelligent and positive. I like other blogs, but they have ads or comment threads which are dirtier than cesspools or...etc. I'm grateful and happy for a good thing when I see it.

My roots are in a minority group which is far less powerful than Muslims are in India, but I don't feel oppressed here. I get what you are trying to say about how they set the bar so high, but I don't feel like punishing people when they give something their best shot, especially when they don't need to put aside their lives and do it in the first place.

My drink is 80% full and I got it from an open bar, but that's just my take.

Not least of all that most of the bloggers here are not even Hindu!

They work overtime to make this site welcoming to all, so they certainly don't need to 'check themselves'.

Word, Red Snapper...especially since this post wasn't about "getting on" Cornell's anything...it was just asking what we thought and giving us a chance to air our take.

Bang Gally --- just to point out how snide your comment about 'Hindu-Bharat Mutiny' is I'd like to point out that the permanent bloggers here consist of:

Two Christians

Two Sikhs

One Hindu Astronaut

One Siddhartha

Therefore Hindus are an oppressed minority at Sepia Mutiny even though the one Hindu has powers of space travel, that does not recompense for the Christian-Sikh alliance that overwhelms. Plus they have Muslim bloggers on guest spot, including one gay one. So there.

While I deplore your pointing out that it's actually a Sikh/big-kundi'd cabal which runs this joint (I was hoping no one would notice!), that is one of the funniest comments I've read in weeks. Very nice. I'd inappropriately hug you if you were near. ;)

Oh, holy shit.

I guess it ok to bring up the negative parts of the southern United States. Funny I could bring up examples of everything about this Cornell article and say it's the truth about Islam.

Look, that's a RELIGION. It spans the entire globe. It's generalization of the worst sort. If you want to do a comparison, then you talk about Christianity and Islam, or Hinduism and Islam. But really...you can't even do that, because they're all so distinct and different. You lose a lot of information when you generalize, and I find that a lot of the generalization on this particular thread is of the worst sort: "make this easy to swallow for me, please."

But you people are adults, not baby birds. The world is infinitely complex. Go out and try and understand, for the love of pete!

I grew up in the South, in rural Mississippi, to be exact. Do bad things happen there? Sure. But it has its own story, and once you understand it and how it works, it's not the horrible demon everyone else seems to think it is. Likewise, I live on the East Coast. Are "Yankees" the evil robber-barons the South thinks they are? Nope.

And so here we go again with Muslims. The sheer idiocy of saying "so-and-so has done wrong, so I can say whatever about this other group here" is pretty indefensible if you're not six years old. The article was about how a Muslim student group is being targeted by a campus newspaper. You think that steering the conversation towards racism in the South does anything other than prevent dialogue?

You're off-base, and off-target, and off-track, and you know it, too.

And in defense of the Mutiny...please, feel free to start up a blog that is about whatever it is you think a blog should be about. Go on, do it. But STOP WHINING HERE. I got sick of those idiotic comments three years ago; it's sad that in this way nothing's changed. You think this site is anti-Muslim? Great. Bully for you. Likewise if you think it's anti-Christian, anti-Hindu, anti-electric-car, anti-pasta, anti-matter, anti-bellum (yes, I know it's with an "e," god rot your soul), or anti-whatever-the-hell-it-is-you-think-is-so-goddamn-important.

The truth is usually more complicated than you care to understand, so go live your simple, premasticated, short-bus-riding, ideology-driven life and be happy, but god! Stop talking about it!

I hate electric cars. They suck.

Salil, may I offer you some porn to cheer you? :D

Salil, may I offer you some porn to cheer you?

What about me? I made you laugh and everything.

What about me? I made you laugh and everything.

Red Snapper, may I make you some porn, to cheer you? :D

Can I star in it?

Salil, may I offer you some porn to cheer you? :D

OK. my guess is that the waiter kept pronouncing "prawn" as "porn" at the meetup. Is this your little inside joke?

.........OK, if you insist ANNA, although stick a Smiths soundtrack on it and it should be good.

Call it 'Meat is Murder' or something.

OK. my guess is that the waiter kept pronouncing "prawn" as "porn" at the meetup. Is this your little inside joke?

Not even close, but that is one outstanding guess. I'd inappropriately hug you for its excellence, if I could. ;)

OK. my guess is that the waiter kept pronouncing "prawn" as "porn" at the meetup

I'm guessing "pr0n".

Call it 'Meat is Murder' or something.

Damn it. I had already started writing, "Meat Beat Manifesto"...ah, curses. Foiled again.

Can I star in it?

Watch out Al Mujahid, Bang Gully already thinks this place need to 'check themselves', last thing we need is evidence that it also is a plot to degrade Muslims into doing naked things on camera too.

While Spoor Lam may accuse us of anti-Saffron bias and hiss that we are a pseudo-secular mutiny secretly propped up by Wendy Something-ger, we at the Mutiny agree with several trolls who like to rant about how Muslims always get to act (those bloody Khans!) and thus steal the virtue of good Indian (Hindu) girls. Because of this, we will discriminate and NOT cast Muslim men in our porn. Because I am a good Indian girl. Oh, shit. I'm not Hindu. DAMN IT. Fine. Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, FSM fans, smurfs. You are all invited to audition for Mutineers Gone Wild.

If Spoor Lam deigns to grace us with his saffron balls, it will be quite the shoot.

there is some money to be made there. Opportunistic gujji hat on.

I'd like to point out that the permanent bloggers here consist of:

Two Christians

Two Sikhs

One Hindu Astronaut

One Siddhartha

Therefore Hindus are an oppressed minority at Sepia Mutiny even though the one Hindu has powers of space travel, that does not recompense for the Christian-Sikh alliance that overwhelms. Plus they have Muslim bloggers on guest spot, including one gay one. So there.

Well, actually, doesn't Sid Uncle refer to himself as the "ill Hindu"? And might that not even the score a bit?

Just sayin'.

No, Uncle is being the "Hin-Jew/Jhindu". Please be noting so here:

At Sepia Mutiny he's the resident half-breed representin' for the mixed-race crowd. Although his heritage is often described as "Hinjew," in his family they say "Jhindu". [linkaya]

You are all invited to audition for Mutineers Gone Wild

I'm volunteering to host it at my place, AJM.

PORN!

This still reduces me to giggles. Ok, I'm going to summarize for the benefit of the poor people who were unable to share in the joy that was Sunday's DC Meetup. Be warned, the following description is NSFW or children.

At a certain point in the conversation, our beloved ANNA decides to STAND UP and wax eloquent about this great new reality show she's discovered..."Debbie Does Dallas Again." She relates this great moment wherein our favorite brown porn star, Sunny Leone, is seeking career advice FROM HER BROTHER, and actually begins to mimic a certain act. "Should I start doing boy-girl?" our Anna yells, "because if I do, it'll mean I have to do double-penetration," and here she pantomimes with her hands...um...well...fellatio and spelunking the small hole, if you will. One hand forward, one hand back, so to speak.

Now, this wouldn't be so bad if we'd had the restaurant to ourselves, which we did right up until roughly that moment. But fortuitously, a largish gaggle of desis wandered in at JUST THAT POINT, children in tow. While the parents were discussing whether to park themselves at a table, two or three 8-to-10-year old boys walked to the door, then froze there, utterly stunned, mouth agape, transfixed by Anna's enthusiastic rendering of her new favorite TV show.

This led some of us to comment that Anna had more-or-less kick-started puberty in a few kids that day, and that there would be some interesting Q&A sessions with the parents in the Accord / Camry on the way home that night. "Mommy, I feel funny...in my pants."

I still get the giggles when I think of the total expressionless intent stare on the faces of those kids while watching you, AJM. Pure gold!

That...just...WOW. Totally not what I was expecting. A N N A, let's go drinkin' sometime.

If Spoor Lam deigns to grace us with his saffron balls, it will be quite the shoot

Saffron balls are not made for shooting.

Because they shoot back.

Saffron Balls are not for playing with.

You cannot play with my balls.

They are to be taken seriously.

Because Saffron Balls are for fighting.

If you feel strong enough, you can fight with them.

But be warned. They fight back.

Saffron balls are not for joking.

So do not try to joke with my balls, or make them laugh.

Because they only cry for the Vedic Nation under threat from anti-nationals.

You cannot argue with them or hope to lick them (in an argument)

Saffron balls are for one thing only. For firing missiles.

At Pakistan, and Richard Gere.

So don’t touch my balls you Khalistan-Abrahamic-Progressive Fascist Cabal!

Death to Sepia Mutiny!!

Hail Mogambo!

The agenda reads like a work script for a South Park episode before the Comedy Central execs wimp out and censor it...

Sunny Leone, is seeking career advice FROM HER BROTHER, and actually begins to mimic a certain act. "Should I start doing boy-girl?"

Who said Sunny Leone was a bad example? What a good little Indian girl, asking her family if she can do douple pen.

Isn't this commenter (HMF) doing the exact same thing that she/he is accusing Clueless of.

No. this commenter isn't.

And allow me to explain why. It has to do with behavior vs. essence of being. The people who lambast Islam, believe that it is Islam's very essence to be violent, that the religion itself is geared towards violence. Sure, they'll induct that principle based on a set of observed instances (train bombings, wtc, etc...) The Ann coulterish solution (which I'm sure the Cornell American would not dispute) is to eliminate them. completely.

However, I am making no such induction. I am not saying, based on these observables in the South, the south is forever doomed to this behavior. But, I will say, after spending some time in the south and the midwest (more in the midwest) you can observe a perpetuation of certain unchallenged ideas. A perpetuation that comes out of pure lazyness if you ask me. Just look at the article quoted in #76. They don't say, "we hate black people, we wake up every morning wishing that black people died a horrible death!", they simply say, "It's the way we've done things all the time" It's this lazyness to challenge past practices that were indeed rooted in systematic, government sanctioned segregation that I think is more evident, and more socially accepted in the South. Because, as racism was prolific historically, all over the US, I don't think anyone would deny the South has historicaly been the most vocal, and unapologetic about it.

So please, the next time you or anyone else wants to say, "Aren't you doing the same thing that bla bla bla".. Don't.

Who said Sunny Leone was a bad example? What a good little Indian girl, asking her family if she can do douple pen.

Oh, we ran with this particular thread for quite a while, let me tell you. I think the entire last half of the meetup was pretty much porntastic.

I'm just worried about how low you guys have gone down in Bang Gully's estimation, after reading this thread.

HMF, didn't you last week say that the south should be made illegal.

After Salil's rendition, this doesn't seem so absurd.

Hahahahaha! nice, Manju...

The people who lambast Islam, believe that it is Islam's very essence to be violent, that the religion itself is geared towards violence. Sure, they'll induct that principle based on a set of observed instances (train bombings, wtc, etc...) The Ann coulterish solution (which I'm sure the Cornell American would not dispute) is to eliminate them. completely.

I have a philosophical interest in the mystical aspects of Islam, and Sufism, which is considered by some as something of an offshoot of Islam, by others as the very essence of Islam itself.

However, I don't think that all people who believe Islam's very essence to be violent base such belief on modern day acts of "terrorism".

An objective reading of the Quran and supplementary hadiths, as well as a study of the development and history of the religion can also hint toward such an understanding - taken out of context, or sometimes read within the context of the religion itself.

The Prophet Muhammed did indeed seek to unite Arabia under one umbrella, so the argument is that Islam is as much a political movement as it is a religious/cultural one.

Many practicing Muslims concur with this concept as well, so it's not just non-Muslims or outsiders who hold such a view.

All hail Spoorlam!

Stop oppression of our foreskins!

Death to Mohels!

However, I don't think that all people who believe Islam's very essence to be violent base such belief on modern day acts of "terrorism".

The people who create such Coulter-esque masterpieces as the one you've read above, most certainly do. They'd be lucky to even spell the word Quran, let alone make any kind of objective readings.

I rather take my chances living in Alabama or Arkansas as a brown man, any day over being an infidel or kafir in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Iran,

I can't speak for Saudi Arabia, and most people are aware of our history in Iran, but in Pakistan, where some of my peeps still live, they're all doing just fine (other than the general Pakistani problems of crumbling infrastructure and unstable politics). They're never harassed, women wear whatever they want and go where they want and are left alone. They're highly identifiable because of their gudrati and typical Parsi features, yet for some reason, the angry Muslim hordes don't immediately chop their heads off.

The 2 Christian cathedals I saw in Karachi were stunningly beautiful and extremely well kept, as were the surrounding Christian neighborhoods and schools. They too seemed to be doing quite well, despite their "oppression"

The nutjob burkha loving extremists are deeply unpopular in Pakistan and even Mushie, who was popular for his alleged moderation is coming under attack for un-democratic actions. The protests against these 2 entities are large and powerful. Before you start spitting out the names of the first muslim countries that pop into your head, think about how it will illuminate the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about.

No, Uncle is being the "Hin-Jew/Jhindu". Please be noting so here:

At Sepia Mutiny he's the resident half-breed representin' for the mixed-race crowd. Although his heritage is often described as "Hinjew," in his family they say "Jhindu". [linkaya]

Linkaya?! I love it. :)

From my brief readings of the history of the three major Abrahamic faiths, violence was indeed big part of their origins.

the last thing all minorities here in the US need is to be afraid of the market.

i've given you some very specific advice

There are many people in this world who dont even know when they are getting screwed. Well ignorance is, it has been said, bliss!!

I can't speak for Saudi Arabia, and most people are aware of our history in Iran, but in Pakistan, where some of my peeps still live, they're all doing just fine (other than the general Pakistani problems of crumbling infrastructure and unstable politics). They're never harassed,

Link

Their supposed positive experiences say virtually nothing about the actual state of play in religious minority-majority relations in Pakistan. (By comparison, India is supposed to have some 70,000 Parsis, not that even that would say anything significant about the Indian or Hindu ethos regarding minorities).

The 2 Christian cathedals I saw in Karachi were stunningly beautiful and extremely well kept, as were the surrounding Christian neighborhoods and schools. They too seemed to be doing quite well, despite their "oppression"

There are many documented cases of the oppression of Christians in Pakistan, though again, that does not mean all of Pakistan (or all Pakistanis) is hostile to X'ianity. But think about Sikhs, Ahmadiyyas and Shias when you want a more valid sense of the state of play. And the Cathedrals you saw are more likely to have been the ones that run schools where the Pakistani elite schools their children - like this and this.

The overall tone at Cornell is VERY liberal. As another Alum (grad school), I remember some calling it the Berkley of the east.

The Cornell American is not The Onion. When one reads The Onion, despite what editors may or may not believe, the content's goal is to make people laugh. Not use passive-aggressive satire to support whatever political view you subscribe to.

Jokes are always about context, situation, timing, etc. This one, just like that Princeton thing, suffers from poor content, timing, and execution if the goal was really comedy.

There are many documented cases of the oppression of Christians in Pakistan, though again, that does not mean all of Pakistan (or all Pakistanis) is hostile to X'ianity. But think about Sikhs, Ahmadiyyas and Shias when you want a more valid sense of the state of play.

And then what about the Hindus in Pakistan whose share of the population has dwindled from ~25% at Partition to

... about 1.6% of the population of Pakistan today. Yes, I should have mentioned Hindus along with Sikhs, Ahmadiyyas and Shias. Thanks Shiva. Link

4:30 — IED Construction Dos and Don’ts with the Chemistry Department (Baker 101 E) What has some bang? What fizzles? Don’t embarrass yourself—come to this instructional seminar!

Personally, this cracked me up. Sure, it's general form is of crass stereotypes, but I actually manages to pull off some glib humour which works.

And then what about the Hindus in Pakistan whose share of the population has dwindled from ~25% at Partition to

... about 1.6% of the population of Pakistan today. Yes, I should have mentioned Hindus along with Sikhs, Ahmadiyyas and Shias. Thanks Shiva. Link

This nonsense on SM comments will never end, period.
I have commented on these numbers atleast 5-6 times. Ikram has and other people have as well. However it has become an article of faith for some people and no evidence to the contrary can change their minds.

Also Shias are doing better in Pakistan than most Indian minorities. They have no state sponsored massacres of Shias in Pakistan unlike India (Delhi-Sikh, Gujarat-Muslim).

I think one can reasonably argue that other smaller minorities like the Christians etc. are doing much better in Indian than Pakistan. Also Pakistan needs to get rid of state sanctioned discrimination where certain high offices can only go to Muslims and the treatment of Ahmadiyas in general.

PGW #70: >>(*) Spoor Lam parodies Moor Nam mercilessly.

Yes. It is well known that SL is a one-trick pony.

M. Nam

This nonsense on SM comments will never end, period. I have commented on these numbers atleast 5-6 times.

AMFD: Please feel free to comment again! And please read #146 along with #143.

I haven't been around on SM as long as you seem to have, and am more than willing to be enlightened.

Ikram has and other people have as well. However it has become an article of faith for some people and no evidence to the contrary can change their minds.

I know this is at a slight tangent from the main thrust of the thread, but feel free to try again :) And BTW, there was no India-vs-Pak element in my comment, so it might be nice if we could keep that angle out of this.

I actually thought that the agenda was funny as hell. Couldn't stop laughing after I read it.

Just some college kids having a good time folks.

Bang Gully -- I mostly agree with you. SM is a reflection of the community commentors and bloggers, and it is not a good place for conversations about Muslim Desi life. I mostly disagree with everythin LL has to say, but Salil is right, we had these debates about the nature of SM years ago. Saurav (an old dissenter) left and became part of a different brown community website. I'm sure others left as well.

Me, I think the SM community is a huge electronic argument for the existance of Pakistan (which is why I call you an electronic Suhrawardy). But half my family lives in India, so I stick around here.

Cachaji -- the figures you givee are wrong (they confuse west pakistan with 1947 Pakistan), but are repeated often. Here is the comment where we SMers sluethed out the truth. Wikipedia is also wrong.

Suprisingly, the proportion of non-Muslims in the population has declined twice as much in India than in Pakistan(3.56% to 3.48% in PK, 90.3% to 86.6% in India).

So when is a fatwa gonna be issued against the cornell american. Lol.

Cachaji -- the figures you givee are wrong (they confuse west pakistan with 1947 Pakistan), but are repeated often. Here is the comment where we SMers sluethed out the truth. Wikipedia is also wrong.

Thanks, then I stand corrected. So the number of Hindus for 1947 in 'Pakistan' include those who were in present-day Bangladesh back then. Fine. I sort of suspected something like this. I was only quoting Wiki, and am in no way vested in the 'accuracy' of the figures. Also, these figures were not making any central point in my comment, they were more 'by the way'. We know there was a serious displacement of Hindus from present-day Pakistan to present-day India during 1947-51, and that may be hard to capture in statistics. Even if we could, that wouldn't, by itself, speak to how Hindus in Pakistan today are treated or feel they are being treated.

Me, I think the SM community is a huge electronic argument for the existance of Pakistan

Guys, you need to stick this on your flyers and banner headlines, along with all the other 'praise' you get from Hindu right wingers who detest you.

SM is a reflection of the community commentors and bloggers, and it is not a good place for conversations about Muslim Desi life. I mostly disagree with everythin LL has to say, but Salil is right, we had these debates about the nature of SM years ago. Saurav (an old dissenter) left and became part of a different brown community website. I'm sure others left as well.

Me, I think the SM community is a huge electronic argument for the existance of Pakistan (which is why I call you an electronic Suhrawardy). But half my family lives in India, so I stick around here.

Yum, persecution and negativity, just in time for lunch! Yay! We are never good enough! Wheee! I love the constant criticism, which doesn't even make sense! Hindus think we cow to Muslims! Muslims think this is an electronic argument! Liberals thing we are too conservative! Conservatives think our hearts are too bleedy! Awesome!

If there aren't enough discussions on desi muslim life, initiate them; send in tips, comment and THEN condemn us if we fuck up, why don't you.

What would make me feel better right now...ah yes. It starts with a "P" ends with an "N" and contains a conjunction in between. Al Mujahid, your audition commences in 25 minutes.

Guys, you need to stick this on your flyers and banner

Speaking of banners, and off on another tangent - I've been noticing the really nice banners up top. I think they are really really nice, just like the ones from before, maybe even better :) And while the text content on this site is certainly super-fabulous, the graphic visual appeal of the site is really really great too. Thanks to all the Mutineers and other volunteers who make this site so great. And - thanks again!

Al Mujahid, your audition commences in 25 minutes.

Who are the fluffers?

Where's SpoorLam when you need him?

But, I will say, after spending some time in the south and the midwest (more in the midwest) you can observe a perpetuation of certain unchallenged ideas. A perpetuation that comes out of pure lazyness if you ask me. Just look at the article quoted in #76. They don't say, "we hate black people, we wake up every morning wishing that black people died a horrible death!", they simply say, "It's the way we've done things all the time" It's this lazyness to challenge past practices that were indeed rooted in systematic, government sanctioned segregation that I think is more evident, and more socially accepted in the South. Because, as racism was prolific historically, all over the US, I don't think anyone would deny the South has historicaly been the most vocal, and unapologetic about it.

Man, HMF that is just silly. Plenty, PLENTY of this attitude in big Northern megalopoli too. The South has (somewhat justifiably) been the American whipping-boy on race, but there's lots of blame to go around even today. Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns" for a great, more inclusive history of American racism, which continues to this day.

I just got back to this site (no internet connection at home) and am only now getting an opportunity to respond to HMF

HMF – my perception continues to be that your initial blanket statement about the South is that you are doing exactly what you criticize (overgeneralizing and essentializing).

I understand your observations about the South (but not your conclusions from your observations) but they are out of place when you are arguing for not overgeneralizing Islam. Please….talk about essentializing.

The people who lambast Islam, believe that it is Islam's very essence to be violent, that the religion itself is geared towards violence.

I can restate this and say “the people who lambast the South, believe that it’s Southern culture’s very essence to be bigoted and violent” and that is what you are saying about the South based on your "observations".

Really, if I take your way of arguing, I can take “observations” of my brief trip to Oman to support the fact that “Islam” is oppressive. I can take historical instances to support how “Islam” is oppressive. And the whole “laziness” in the South, I could support “laziness” in Islamic communities, with your way of arguing.

From how you defend yourself I feel that you base your arguments on political correctness – it’s policitically correct on SM to protect Islam from being essentialized (though apparently some readers disagree)…but that argument also extends to other cultures/religions/etc. And I reiterate, in my book, you defeat your own purpose of protecting a group of people against bigotry by essentializing another group of people.

Man, HMF that is just silly. Plenty, PLENTY of this attitude in big Northern megalopoli too. The South has (somewhat justifiably) been the American whipping-boy on race, but there's lots of blame to go around even today

No, it's not silly. I thought I pre-empted this line of thinking by stating, "this doesn't mean that everywhere else is Disneyland", further more I also stated, and you quoted "Because, as racism was prolific historically, all over the US, I don't think anyone would deny the South has historicaly been the most vocal and unapologetic about it."

Now, there have been members of the civil rights movement, who actually see this as a good thing. Malcolm X has always said, it's better to deal with a wolf than a fox (ie someone who's bearing who he is, and not hiding behind nice sounding words like "integration") As he himself never lived in the South (Detriot, Boston and NY), he's also said, "Stop talking about the South, it's not just the South. When I talk about the South, It's south of the Canadian border"

...but his goals were a bit different. I've read James Loewen, not that particular book, which I will have a look at. But read James Loewen's "Lies my teacher told me" , in particular the chapter called "Gone with the Wind" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I can restate this and say “the people who lambast the South, believe that it’s Southern culture’s very essence to be bigoted and violent” and that is what you are saying about the South based on your "observations".

Are you categorically stupid? Did you not read this from my previous post:

However, I am making no such induction. I am not saying, based on these observables in the South, the south is forever doomed to this behavior. But, I will say, after spending some time in the south and the midwest (more in the midwest) you can observe a perpetuation of certain unchallenged ideas.

It's undeveloped thinking to label every group collectivization equally motivated, and equally justifiable (or injustifiable). This is what you are doing.

In addition, a religious collectivazation and regional collectivization can never be equivalent. There's no way to make general statements about a religion and not have it be "essentializing" to their inherent nature, where as statements about a region can be drawn from historical record and observed instances coming from said region. So I can be making a statement about how a society operates in that physical location, without making any claims on the inherent nature of the individuals.

If the Cornell American made references about Islam as its' practised in Saudi Arabia, or in the middle east, or something like that. then maybe you'd have some kind of case. but they didn't, so you don't.

It starts with a "P" ends with an "N" and contains a conjunction in between. Al Mujahid, your audition commences in 25 minutes.

Hold on, I need to get ride of my brief first.

I meant rid and not ride!

Chachaji: I was not addressing you in the comment. For the last couple of years, some commenters on SM have used the pre-1955 numbers of Hindus and compared them to the present number of Hindus in Pakistan as evidence of the mass migration of Hindus from Pakistan because of intolerable conditions.
That is why I brought up India in my comment. You of course were saying no such thing.
Peace :)

Hey HMF - can we stop with the "are you categorically stupid" stuff? Kindof juvenile to me.

I'll answer you later - don't have time right now, but you make no sense to me and you contradict yourself. And quickly - I'm not understanding the difference between generalizing a culture (the south) and generalizing islam. geography/culture/religion can often times be conflated and is...I'm not talking about the Cornell paper, I'm talking about how YOU try and attack the generalizers. I don't care that you said "the south isn't doomed" - you contradict yourself b/c you in the same statement say "the south is...(now and has been in the past)". I believe Clueless had some points to say about how "islam is.... (now and has been in the past)". You attacked him, (why do you always seem angry in your posts?) and one of the ways that you attacked him and defend your statements about the South is to say that you can generalize about the South (whether you see it as a region or culture) - but by the way you can't generalize about Islam (whether its seen as a religion/culture/ or even region.

Please explain to me why There's no way to make general statements about a religion and not have it be "essentializing" to their inherent nature, where as statements about a region can be drawn from historical record and observed instances coming from said region ... I'm not understanding this difference at all.

I really should get back to work - SM can be addictive.

Another thing HMF - I'm pretty sure (now I'm speaking for others, so others can correct me if I'm wrong) that the people in this thread that were generalizing about Islam - are saying that Islam is doomed to forever more be....

I think they are making overgeneralized statements and drawing conclusion of how Islam is now and has been in the past and essentializing them, which is exactly what you do to the South.

woops, Let me restate:

Another thing HMF - I'm pretty sure (now I'm speaking for others, so others can correct me if I'm wrong) that the people in this thread that were generalizing about Islam - are NOT saying that Islam is doomed to forever more be....

I don't care that you said "the south isn't doomed" - you contradict yourself b/c you in the same statement say "the south is...(now and has been in the past)"

Of course you don't care. If you did, you'd see the fallacy of your argument. Please point out where I said "The south is..."

Please explain to me... I'm not understanding this difference at all.

Gladly. A religion is at it's root, a belief system combined with a set of physical practices (ultimately to "realize" that belief system), I believe both are required to correctly constitute a "religion." Any general statements made about religion, directly attack that belief system. Because if you're not attacking that, what else are you attacking?

But. a statement on region, makes no such direct claim on that belief system being inherent to the region. It's not the same to say, because such and such acts have come out of this place historically, and such and such writings have come out of this place historically, and such and such laws were written on the books in this place historically, that it would take great effort to challenge these ways that have been perpetuated from generation to generation (with a little bit of erosion as time passes)

And certainly many people can break free from the society that has done a number on their brains, for example, Tim Wise, who I absolutely respect as an authority on race relations and race hisotry, who happens to be a Southern white man (He fought David Duke's campaign just out of college at Tulane)

I shouldn't have called you silly HMF, and for that I apologize.

I still think you're wrong though :)

I guess I agree with that Malcolm X quote. The chapter you cite in "Lies" is important in understanding the very real violence in the Reconstruction-Era South, and the "nadir of race relations" (as Loewen calls it) in the US afterwards. But he basically stops at the early 20th century in that book (though he fleshes the story out a LOT in "Sundown Towns"). That perspective basically ignores the events of the Civil Rights Era, which saw a number of victories in the South that were not usually matched by activism in the North. Remember that Martin Luther King Jr. won in Selma, Alabama but lost in Chicago. Remember that Northern Civil Rights leaders were assassinated by the government (eg: Fred Hampton). Remember that the race riots that hit the country after MLK's death were most violent and sustained in Northern cities, partly because peaceful activism had failed in the North.

The South was the most visible front in the battle for civil rights. That was partly due to real historical circumstance, but it also reflected institutional biases. It's always easier for the media to pick on an "Other" and the rural South was way more "Other" to New York and Washington-based journalists than the American inner-city. Bull Connor turning his hoses on the black protesters in Alabama is an iconic image these days. The people who firebombed homes in white neighborhoods in places like New York, Chicago, and Milwuakee to prevent integration are virtually forgotten. In many ways, the fight for true equality is still stalled in Northern urban areas, as any current list of the most segregated cities will show. The South may have some backwards people, but it's been kicked in the ass enough that it's had to move forward.

Anyway, this is WAAAAY off topic, so I'm sorry. But I basically grew up in the South and semi-rural Midwest, so I had to respond to this.

I guess I agree with that Malcolm X quote

Then you should also agree with the context. Malcolm wasn't pardoning the South, he was indicting the entire US, making sure the Northern atrocities (as you mentioned, his house was firebombed by Klan members in Detroit) weren't forgotten. He agreed the South had great potential for violence though, as he talks about when setting up the Atlanta NOI temple.

The South was the most visible front in the battle for civil rights. That was partly due to real historical circumstance,

I'd say, large part. Malcolm once said, "White people called King a communist and anti-American, then when we came along, they thanked the lord they have a Martin King" If the geographical locations were switched, so would be the "victories."

But I basically grew up in the South and semi-rural Midwest, so I had to respond to this.

No problem. I'm glad you did. (respond, not growing up in the South)

Bang Gully :

Now if the people running the site don't care, that's fine, then they should call it Bharat Mutiny or Hindu Mutiny or whatever.

On the contrary people in this site take a lot of care to highlight Muslim issues in the diaspora, despite a much lesser presence of Muslim commentators and bloggers. I can recall quite a lot of Muslim related issues in the last few months, the Kazim Ali, the Mosque in england and many more.

Nevertheless, when you set those high standards of trying to include everybody, you're gonna expect criticism when it fails to live up to that.

I don't think it fails to live up to the standard. I think the essence of a progressive blog is the ability to critically debate religion. Agreed, there have been a few trolls (especially some guy who posted stupid vitrol and was banned and deleted), but the majority of discussions were centered around critically examining religion. Thus you would expect offensive stuff posted about certain religions and you might see them as "bashing". I for one is a regular "basher" of Hinduism. I would hate it if SM became more regulated and severly moderated all discussions about religion. That would insulate religion from any sort of debate and certainly dent the progressiveness of the blog.

Now if you are easily offended by any critical questions asked about your religion, then it's a different discussion altogether.

southern "red-neck" type of area?????

I guess it ok to stereotype to the southern United States. Last time I checked the South in the United States as made alot of process in the last 40 years.

Clueless, that's why I did this " " around the term red-neck. And I only used it on here coz it was on here that I first came in contact with the term since my return from India, so I figured the term was "ok" with the bloggers/poster here on SM. I remember asking for a definition of "red-neck" here when I first saw it, based on the answer I got from a poster here on SM, I used the term above in the same context.

Bang Gully:

There is a LOT of anti-Muslim rhetoric here (I've been checking the site out since late 2005). I've read posts where it didn't even have to do with Islam but somehow or another one of these Hindutva type clowns started posting all these hadiths to implicate Islam was a bad religion and that Muslims are all terrorists and rapists of their fair Hindu maidens or whatever hate filled narratives they beleive in.

I've been reading this site from just before that time and I have never come across anything like that at all. Care to give examples?

As a muslim I've never found this blog to be offensive at all, on the contrary ALL of the bloggers and most of the commentators are very understanding when it comes to Islamic issues. I guess you're just chucking an MSNBC/Newsweek and using one or two comments to judge an entire community (something which we muslims are constantly asking others not to do).

I really havent noticed any rants against just one community in general

I'm glad Sepia Mutiny includes postings about things which concern Muslims.

When a crime and other injustice happens against a non-Muslim brown person, where the perpetrator clearly intends to victimize a Muslim, it upsets me when I hear or read people say things like, "But he/she wasn't even Muslim!" -- as if the fact that the victim was not a Muslim makes the infraction somehow worse, because the clear implication is that if the victim were a Muslim it would somehow be "more understandable."

However, I'm glad when I read comments here expressing that crimes and injustices are just as bad no matter who the actual or intended victims are.

I agree with the idea that these things affect us all, no matter what our religious identity is. I can understand people feeling insulted for being perceived as something they aren't. However, even if the favored hatred target of the day isn't one's own group, that group could easily become a target in a climate of hate. Vigilance against all hate is much better than solely concerning oneself with the hate aimed at one's particular group.

Further, it's much more productive to fight all hatred than to pass out pamphlets and flyers to haters telling them how to tell the difference between a given group and the hated group of the day.

If anything, the Cornell American parody of an awareness event shows us exactly what young conservatives think (and are made to think) before they become the legislators and steady voters of tomorrow. Such perspectives are reinforced to the extent that they are taken as facts; we are in a sociopolitical era where individuality, logic and objectivity don't matter any more and hive-mind anecdotes prevail.

Case in point: Creation Museum (my favorite paragraph from this article: "When the Gallup Poll asked people about their views on the subject in March, 47 percent of Americans polled said that God created humans pretty much in their present form some time in the last 10,000 years. That belief was strongest among those with less education, regular churchgoers, people 65 and older, and Republicans.")

These Cornell students are moneyed and with that sheepskin will be the decisionmakers of the near future - they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by keeping the herd dumb.

Last but not least, it helps to know what those with such mentalities think of Brown.

Last but not least, it helps to know what those with such mentalities think of Brown.

They think the same of Yale, Dartmouth, and Harvard as well.

Roddy @ 177: Words of Wisdom, brother! Couldn't have said it better myself, and more power to you!

The Ho Plaza is actually located steps from the Kroch Library. I am not making this up.

All of you "enlightened" liberals, do yourself a favor and go live abroad anywhere outside of the US and you'll realize that the ONLY ones taking the moral high ground are Americans, in Middle Eastern Countries there are no "Political Correct" movements to "understand" and "befriend" westerners. Personally I love the post...I dare anyone to tell me that all of the "stereotypes" from it arent true...just watch CNN for a couple of hours...

A wonderful fun Persian cat site with lots of pictures of Persian Kittens .

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Persian Kittens