April 24, 2007
Do I Make You Offended Baby, Do I? -- The Snorenell EditionIssues
An “anonymous” tipster [Thanks, gf.] passed on a link to the Cornell American, which seems to be a free newspaper available on campus up there in gorge-us Ithaca. Apparently, it is a publication so desirable, you are limited to one copy per person, but I’m keeping you from the relevant background info so I’ll give you a sec to peep the following blockquote about the awesomeness which is The Cornell American:
Founded in January 1992, its mission is to “raise a traditional American perspective, so as to balance debate on campus and to further conservative ideals.” The opinions presented in the Cornell American are solely those of the individual authors and do not necessarily reflect those of the advertisers or persons listed as staff.[link]
The alert mutineer who blew up our hotline asked this salient question:
Satire or “Ivy Twerps [being] Ivy Twerps” to quote Siddhartha?
She posed that query regarding a mock schedule of events for “Islam Awareness Week 2007!”, a piece so significant, it didn’t have a byline more specific than “staff”. How thoughtful! How helpful.
Here’s what I have to say to that— and by responding thusly, I have now officially turned in to my parents, but I think their take on such things is appropriate in this case, especially— if you have to hide something, doesn’t that tell you you’re doing something wrong? Eh, edi?
Highlights of the agenda after the jump.
This past week, The Muslim Educational and Cultural Association held its annual Islam Awareness Week 2007. As if Islam wasn’t made painfully aware to Americans already, we at The Cornell American decided to co-sponsor some events of our own. The following schedule of events this past week were both enlightening and entertaining…
Tuesday, 4/10
3:30 — Campus-wide militant riot. Meet at CJL. B.Y.O. AK-47.
5:00 — Flag-burning on Ho Plaza Denounce the imperialist agressors.
8:00 — Sunni-Shia Hockey Showdown at Lynah Rink Losers beheaded according to the will of Allah.
Wednesday, 4/11
4:30 — IED Construction Dos and Don’ts with the Chemistry Department (Baker 101 E) What has some bang? What fizzles? Don’t embarrass yourself—come to this instructional seminar!
7:30 — Make your own kidnapping video with the Film Department (Schwartz SB23) Ropes, victims, masks, and large blades provided.
10:00 — CUTV presents Jimmy Carter’s self-detonation for Palestinian rights Broadcast live from Haifa.
Thursday, 4/12…
8:30 — Burqa Beauty Pageant @ Schwartz Auditorium in Rockefeller Hall Grand Prize: Be stoned to death for being a shameless harlot. Runner-up gets a goat.
Friday, 4/13
Noon — Jihad on Day Hall Occupy Day Hall until the Campus Code of Conduct is changed to reflect sharia law…
* Camel Parking provided.
** Security at all events provided by CUPD and Hezbollah.
Well, kittens? Whatcha think? Offensive? Ignorant? Intolerant? Stupid? Not worth our time? SO worth our time? Less interesting than whether or not Abhi’s outfit was lame, at the BollyVedding of the century?
Oh, and are any of our readers current students who can give us mutineer-on-the-scene commentary?
anna on April 24, 2007 05:35 AM in Issues · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
LOL...wow those are so astoundingly stupid and crass.
*gasp*.
I expended a lot of fury against the conservative publication on my campus, but I don't remember it being even close to as bad as this. Back then I think it was more fun for them to rail against feminists, and we'd already been over all those offensive stereotypes ad nauseum.
Oh yeah and in this case I think this is worth our time, because those Ivy League Twerps are the Future Leaders of America.
The fact that these people don't have the balls to ID themselves makes me believe that its just ivy twerps being ivy twerps, to quote Siddhartha. Fascists aren't such wimps. Not worth much discussion.
This read a lot like something the Cornell Review would do. (the paper of Ann Coulter) But It seems the Cornell American and the Cornell Review sort of switched roles. What sucked was the normal newspaper, the Cornell Daily Sun was sidelined (no school support, so it was a subscription, where as the review was free) Of course, this was years ago.
The review ran a cartoon years ago, poking fun at Akwekwon (the native american living center), basically saying it was a casino. Things like, "wake up to slot machine alarm clocks" and other barbs of that sort. It's nothing new, what was disturbing was an Indian-American (not American Indian) defending it. Cornell was a breeding ground for uncle tomery.
Ehhh - this is juvenile and silly and mildly amusing if one doesn't take it seriously, and honestly there's more worrisome obnoxiousness and bigotry out there. I'd let the Cornell student groups battle this one out, it's not really worth anyone else's time.
Hopefully this isn't going unnoticed on Cornell's campus. I know that anything like this wouldn't fly at most schools.
bunch of stupid wimps. thats it.
Meh, I went to the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, and the Orange and Blue Observer there (also a conservative-opinion paper) pulled highly visible stunts to get attention (such as holding a gun raffle for "homosexuals and females to protect themselves"
...I'm guessing these guys are the same way, and thusly, I think the SM community shouldn't bother with this one, god knows we have enough idiots spouting nonsense, and to give lowly papers like this coverage is useless.
Also, I'd like to raise the point that someone is going to pick this up and then say "Cornell's student newspaper" said this, and thus raise a maelstrom. And nobody, NOBODY should confuse this with The Cornell Daily Sun, just like nobody should confuse the Orange & Blue Observer with the Daily Illini.
* Camel Parking provided.
Haha! Get the joke? Islamazoids live in Arabia and ride on camels so the 'camel parking'. So witty.
All of the above.
I blame comedy central for this. The channel features too many talented comics who can actually pull of this sort of islamo-centric humor and not come off as asses. Young impressionable morons at Cornell think they real funny and put out this shit. Hope they get it piled on them.
I disagree, Comedy Central has featured progressive, "non-traditional" comedians from the Axis of Evil
Mola, dude, really??
Huh? Is that a shout out to Don Imus?
There is a danger of giving a group of self-evidently intellectual lightweights more than their allotted 15 minutes of fame.
I think it's a liberal conspiracy to pose as conservatives and make them look like stupid, juvenile, hate mongering bigots. Someone needs to do something about these darn liberals.
Problematic. Agree with desishiksa -- these are the future leaders of America. Plus, some/many of them could go on to be in positions to hire/fire, arrest/detain, allow entry/deport, finance/reject... Shouldn't pass without culpability. Yes, racism is multi-layered and tightly woven into the fabric of our world; yes, it's difficult to address all levels, but when "common assumptions" like these (from Ivy Leaguers) pass without challenge, or get dismissed as comedic/simple twerpery, it leaves the door open for more aggressive, less comedic intimidation.
Hard to criticise the authors of the satire when there are news stories like these floating around.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article1695718.ece
when embassies can be burned over cartoons, surely a few heads will roll over an article like this?Maybe that's when they didnt want to be identified?
Looks like the newspaper is no stranger to offending, because they wrote this a while back.
Good satire of religion and extremism is good --- straight up demonisation is the sign of a lower and crude mind. This is what gives it away the most I reckon:
If it was even funny you might concede them something for their wit, but this is the worst --- a low and crude mind that tries to be funny and fails.
Like I said, there's a good way to satirise Islamic extremism without demonising, but I guess the moral climate lets this slide. You can generalise about Muslims and to a lesser extent, any brown people and religions, in ways that would be called for being anti-semitic and racist if you applied the same system of thought to, say Jewish or Black people.
Ho Plaza is the area in front of the main student center.
Of course, The Daily Show and Colbert (each with over 1.1M nightly viewers) are among the largest ad revenue generators for Viacom.
Rubbish. You think it's hard to criticise a bunch of humourless half-wits who demonise and resort to racist stereotypes and collective stigmatisation because of the actions of an extremist minority? Satirise the extremists, try and do it with at least some genuine wit and originality, instead of revealing a lower mind of crude and witless prejudice.
No desi angle in this. There is a Muslim angle, but they are middle-eastern Muslims.
Yeah, there is a big problem with the Cornell American article: it isn't funny.
If you're going to be offensive, you have to be funny. "Camel-parking"?! -- It's embarrasing that Cornell produces such unfunny "humour".
"Runner-up gets a goat" is the best line, and it's only funny because goats are inherently humourous.
The desi angle is that some desis are Muslim.
Plus, I already stated a desi had defended a similarly offensive article/cartoon in the Cornell Review years back.
And yet, desis are constantly confused with such muslims. I dream of the day when bigots get the communities they wish to hate straight.
No, seriously, Red Snapper is exactly right. Let's not conflate "desi" with "Hindu" or anything else intolerant please.
I thought Cornell was for smart people.
Why are these people hanging around a liberal cesspool when they should be in Iraq fighting the Islamofacists?
Also, to many, India is in the Middle East and we're all muslims.
Ugh.
It's worth going after them because they're learning over there at Cornell, and this is part of the education process. Don Imus didn't get away with it; I fail to see why these fools shouldn't at least feel stupid in public. Even with no attribution to a specific writer, a select few people on the staff did come up with this, and a sufficient outcry might make them rethink this kind of idiocy.
I'm not saying "bully the poor college kids," I'm saying "rub their noses in it so they don't make a mess on the rug again."
Oops. Did I just make an analogy between the staff of the Cornell American and dogs that poop on the rug? Well, I'm sure it was just done in jest. No harm done!
Well, kittens? Whatcha think? Offensive? Ignorant? Intolerant? Stupid? Not worth our time? SO worth our time?
I vote "not worth our time." The real problem here is that apparently even Ivy League students aren't smart enough to try being funny without reverting to the usual tired racial stereotypes.
If anyone wants to talk to the immediately affected parties:
http://sao.cornell.edu/SO/search.php?igroup=201&year=organizations
The funny thing is that in other parts of the world, there are much worse things written about americans,christians and western culture.
Yet despite many people here being american, living in western country, and some even being christian, there is little outrage.
Clueless:
To that end, I offer the following paraphrasing of the sermon on the Mount, namely, "remove the plank from your own eye." It's a lot easier to occupy the moral high ground that way. And also, yes, people are prejudiced everywhere, and make racial, ethnic, and religious slurs constantly. We can help shape and guide things best from our own backyard first, it seems to me.
Clueless
So because some people elsewhere write stupid things about America, people should shut up about the demonisation of Muslims and others that occurs in America or the UK or wherever? That's the upshot of what your argument is, which you repeat like a mantra whenever a post on any subject similar to this comes up. It's a classic tu quoque fallacy made even more egregious by the fact that you indirectly accuse Sepia Mutiny and its readers of what, being complicit with the inverse of this demonisation by people abroad when they speak of America? The SM people do not support the demonisation or rhetoric of anti-Americans anywhere, so why do you bring it up?
The funny thing is that in other parts of the world, there are much worse things written about americans,christians and western culture.
So... we should stoop to their level, then?
"The desi angle is that some desis are Muslim."
While that is true, it is the references to Jimmy Carter, Palestine, camels, stoning and beheading that made me feel they were satirizing the Middle East.
However, I will drop the issue.
I have a somewhat different take on this from most other people on this board. Very few people on this board have (I think) been in such close proximity to poverty as I; have smelt the stink of flop-sweat or seen the raw anger of young men who just cannot get a break - despite all their honesty and their willingness to work - on account of the poverty that they have been born into. A vast number of the wife-beatings, embassy-burnings, stone-throwings that have graduated into bomb-throwings, etc., are, in overwhelmingly many cases, the acts of angry young men. I do not defend any of these; I just wish to point out two things:
a) Very few of us who are so quick to satirise know that the despair can feel like a kick in the stomach; and
b) There is, fundamentally, nothing particularly Islamic about the embassy-burnings, stone-throwings, etc.
In support of (b): despite all that I have said, angry, poverty-stricken young men will not easily take to the streets to engage in organised acts of violence. A certain radicalisation -- usually stemming from issues completely unrelated to poverty -- is needed for "organised acts of violence" to take place. In a certain portion of the Middle East, the Israel-Palestine conflict provides that radicalisation. If embassy-burnings, etc., etc., were a peculiarly Islamic thing, we should have been seeing a lot of those in Kuwait, in Saudi Arabia, or in the U.A.E. But we don't.
What makes me want to weep when I see satire of the Mohammed comic-strip or the Cornell American provenance is that they are, ultimately, an expression of the nasty, self-satisfied laughter of the comfortably off towards their considerably less-fortunate brethren. It is so very, very uncompassionate.
As an example, this reminded me of an old Soviet joke.
Dissident: The Soviet Union is a Repressive dictatorship that only pays lip service to workers' rights; in fact it enslaves workers who have no say or power in the workplace and as such at the mercy of the Soviet bureaucracy
Commissar: What about the lynchings in the South in the U.S?
Gee! Thanks!
What I am more shocked and angered about is that some of this idiots will get a job on wall street after there "degree from IVY league" (although the degree is in American History but no matter) and will "manage" MY 401k money. MY money !!! And some financial institutions charge a percentage of retirement savings as fee for running the retirement plan. This is a LOOT of my money by effing morons and I cant do anything about it.
This is why comedy works primarily when it's directed at a deserving target. As someone pointed out earlier, it would be much more effective if the comedy was directed at those who are extremists, because they really don't have any moral ground on which to stand.
And you secretly love them, because you hate America. Don't think I don't see through it.
Terrorist attacks are political, why then continue to carp about religion? Unless there's something to divert attention from.. It seems so elementary!
All of the above! :)
That is to say, it's Offensive, Ignorant, Intolerant, Stupid, Not worth your time, *AND* less interesting than whether or not Abhi’s outfit was lame! (I didn't think it was *that* bad? At least it matched the outfit of the new Mrs. Bachchan?)
I can't help but wonder, if this article was written about the Jewish community...would it go under the radar for even half a day?
rc: you can choose to put your 401k $$ in an index fund with minimal fees (trust me, no wall street bigshot spends his time managing an index fund). all the fees for the variety of funds offerred in a 401k will be laid out in the prospectus. the market is your friend.
To Clueless @ #34: Could you stop being so blitheringly disingenuous, please ? The reason why so many Mutineers get outraged about the demonisation of minorities in America, by Americans, is because: a) Mutineers believe in the adage that charity begins at home; and b) they are knowledgable about American history, of which you seem ignorant (that, or you have succeeded in taking disingenousness to radical extremes). Concerning (b): there was a time, not too long ago, when certain minorities in the U.S. faced more than mere demonisation. Would you like to try how it feels being dragged to death tied to a pickup truck, or having your testicles being stuffed down your throat ? These things have occurred, and systematically so, sufficiently recently in American history that many sensitive Americans feel that viigilance is necessary, lest demonisation lead, yet again, to worse things. I suspect you know all this. But if not, could you get this through your thick skull, Clueless ?
Not even half a second. Many of the old Cornell Review staff were Jewish themselves, when the Review became more of a politically conservative publication (rather than social), I'm sure many of them jumped ship to the Cornell American. But even otherwise, it wouldn't be tolerated to say the least.
now, if you were talking about social security, you may have a point.
The Imugi -- Abhi's get up was bland white pasta next to Aish's flaming biryani. Come to think of it, not many could stand next to TMBWITW and not come off looking frumpy.
GB I'm well aware of the racial problems in the history of the United States. The United States is like every other damn country in the world, where being a minority is hard. GB can you please tell the name of country where being a minority is easy.
Dissident: The Soviet Union is a Repressive dictatorship that only pays lip service to workers' rights; in fact it enslaves workers who have no say or power in the workplace and as such at the mercy of the Soviet bureaucracy
Commissar: What about the lynchings in the South in the U.S?
Dissident: What does that have to do with my argument?
Commissar: Being poor and powerless is difficult in every country, including in our great republic. Quit complaining
The joke continues.....
So Clueless, I'm curious...at what point do you feel a publication is worthy of getting fired up about? Is there a threshold of offensiveness that is agreed upon?
GB:
Bingo. You've nailed it. That's it, exactly.
I don't have much compassion for someone who blows up a bus to make a political point. I understand it, but I don't empathize. On the other hand, I completely empathize with people who feel powerless or are disenfranchised or marginalized by governments, an aristocracy or a privileged elite, or a corporate or other organizational entity.
In fact, I think huge parts of the world systematically attempt to do this all the time, sometimes deliberately and with forethought, and sometimes totally inadvertantly.
And I think the majority of Mutineers find that kind of injustice deplorable, whether it's perpetrated by Americans, browns, or some other ethnicity, either here in the U.S. or abroad.
The Daily Sun is a good paper. I thought the Review was most hilarious. I was wrong. RC, you can choose to save your money any way you like. People take it to Wall St. only because they want it to grow as much as possible.
Absolutely right in #28, Intern.
My guess as to what happening on the Cornell campus regarding this article - almost nothing. Some orgs will make some noise and then everyone will forget it. The university/advertisers will not threaten the Cornell American with withdrawal of funding (I'm guessing it's supported by the univ/ads since it's free).
I sort of deem this as being unfunny where there was opportunity to be conservative and funny and not worthy of attention. I'd prefer to wait and see how the students or other people on campus get offended if at all and how they choose to react to this. I haven't been a student in well over a decade but am well aware that kids grow up and often change their mind when they get to real life and adulthood. Every student who has a passionate and radical viewpoint even if mixed with being young and stupid should be allowed the opportunity to voice it and stand up for it or apologize for it. Pulling a stunt like this means drawing party lines rather clearly. It should be interesting to see if it conjures up debate on campus and who falls where.
I'm From Brazil...
Very Good you Blog..
I second Janofalltrades' suggestion. I went to Cornell and never even heard of the Cornell American until this. This might be one to keep local for now, but I hope someone on campus blows up their spot...
Of course not -- there are laws against anti-Semitism in most countries. Not to mention that a high number of Ivy League twerps are Jewish. So the Jewish-thing is an extreme, but I'm wondering how this would have gone down if it were about East Asians or Hispanics.
I wasn't in the country before 9/11 -- those who were, what was the state of Islamophobia then?
As a Muslim,I find this kind of humour just not funny, and I'm not really offended. There are people with good hearts on Sepia Mutiny but Sepia Mutiny needs to be cleaned up before they get angry at other organisations for their stupidity. There is a LOT of anti-Muslim rhetoric here (I've been checking the site out since late 2005). I've read posts where it didn't even have to do with Islam but somehow or another one of these Hindutva type clowns started posting all these hadiths to implicate Islam was a bad religion and that Muslims are all terrorists and rapists of their fair Hindu maidens or whatever hate filled narratives they beleive in. I know there's a lot of good people who are at least fair and try to be objective with their comments. I'm not asking anyone to praise Islam here, but the hate has to be censored more consistently...people have been deleted for lesser offences here.
Unfortunately negativity sells and has a much stronger push factor than positivity with its pull factor. This is a site for South Asians ideally, and Muslims are a significant part of the South Asian diaspora, yet I could probably count on my fingers the Muslims who write here or express their opinions here. There is a reason for that...I am usually turned off by the vitriol and venom spewed here, and I'm sure other Muslims are too. I've had more constructive dialogues with white conservatives than most desi on forums...it's just really disappointing.
I am glad though that people are pointing out that things are happening to Muslims in this country,and I hope it continues.
If you live in "other parts of the world" you should totally say something about these terrible things. But I don't see how that's connected to racism here in the States.
Evil anywhere excuses evil everywhere, I guess.
How immature, and crass- is this what one of America's 'top' universities creates and condones to an extent? Quite the scholars and intellects these kids are.
Ouch...this makes me so ashamed to be from Cornell. I do want to point out this is not representative of the campus, though.
#47 Manju,
I dont know how long you have been working, but if you have not started a retirement plan here's 401k LOOT that no company tells you
The republican model of putting everyone into 401k plan is a BOON for some IVY league privileged kids. We have no choice but to invest in 401k because thats the only Tax effective way to save for retirement. So some History graduates are going to be continue to be rich.
But why is the Jewish thing an extreme? Just because they have a greater presence in the area? I don't see how my example is any more extreme than it being written about Islam.
52. clueless
"GB I'm well aware of the racial problems in the history of the United States. The United States is like every other damn country in the world, where being a minority is hard. GB can you please tell the name of country where being a minority is easy."
Well its kind of strange that the Parsis were never persecuted in India. This community often fared better than their majority Hindu neighbours but somehow escaped the wrath of Shiva. Its an interesting story about how Parsis landed in desh
- the story i always heard was how the desi king said we are so very overpopulated and cannot sustain you folks. Then the parsi headman asks for a glass of milk and adds sugar to it and says, " we shall be the sugar in the milk, disolve and add sweetness". nice story though wikipedia doesnt talk about it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsee
" The immigrants were granted permission to stay by the local ruler Jadi Rana on the condition that they adopt the local language (Gujarati); that their women adopt local dress (the Sari); and that they henceforth cease to bear arms (Hodivala, 1920).
From a superficial 21st century point of view, some of these ithoter (Gujarati: questions) are remarkably trivial - for instance, Rivayat 376: whether ink prepared by a non-Zoroastrian is suitable for copying Avestan language texts - but they provide a discerning insight into the fears and anxieties of the early modern Zoroastrians. Thus, the question of the ink is symptomatic of the fear of assimilation and the loss of identity; a theme that dominates the questions posed and continues to be an issue into the 21st century. So also the question of conversion of Juddins (non-Zoroastrians) to Zoroastrianism, to which the reply (R237, R238) was: acceptable, even meritorious. (Dhalla, 1938:474-475)
Nonetheless, "the precarious condition in which they lived for a considerable period made it impracticable for them to keep up their former proselytizing zeal. The instinctive fear of disintegration and absorption in the vast multitudes among whom they lived created in them a spirit of exclusiveness and a strong feeling for the preservation of the racial characteristics and distinctive features of their community. Living in an atmosphere surcharged with the Hindu caste system, they felt that their own safety lay in encircling their fold by rigid caste barriers" (Dhalla, 1938:474). Even so, at some point (perhaps not long after their arrival in India), the Zoroastrians - perhaps determining that the social stratification that they had brought with them was unsustainable in the small community - did away with all but the hereditary priesthood (called the asronih in Sassanid Iran). The remaining estates - the (r)atheshtarih (nobility, soldiers, and civil servants), vastaryoshih (farmers and herdsmen), hutokshih (artisans and laborers) - were folded into an all-comprehensive class today known as the behdini ("followers of daena", for which "good religion" is one translation). This change would have far reaching consequences. For one, it opened the gene pool to some extent since until that time inter-class marriages were exceedingly rare (this would continue to be a problem for the priesthood until the 20th century). For another, it did away with the boundaries along occupational lines, a factor that would enamour the Parsis to the 18th and 19th century British colonial authorities who had little patience for the unpredictable complications of the Hindu caste system (such as a clerk from one caste who would not deal with a clerk from another)."
And they have contributed so much to India...from the freedom struggle (Naroji), to industry (Tatas,Godrej), entertainment (Freddie Mercury, Zubin Mehta,Rohinton Mistry)
Mahatma Gandhi would note in a much misquoted statement, "I am proud of my country, India, for having produced the splendid Zoroastrian stock, in numbers beneath contempt, but in charity and philanthropy perhaps unequalled and certainly unsurpassed" (Rivetna, 2002).
ok enough of Parsi loving. Them with funny names like Engineer, Contractor, Churiwallah. I have a Parsi bashing tale to relate. I was in Maharastra and went to a Parsi Fire temple on Navroze but the priest said non-parsis are not allowed. Hell, i was outraged. Who let these Persians in? Did we never have anti-Parsi riots? How did the Shiv Sena miss out on these foreigners? Arent these Persian cousins of the fatwa spewing Ayotollahs?
What does it take for the majority to persecute the minority? How does the minority assimilate without trouble? What degree of assimilation? The Parsis are dying out but still hold on to their identity. Why has India been nice to some of its minorities? Ask the Parsis, Jews, Bahais? Are they just too miniscule to raise hackles of the aam biradari?
Bang Gully I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. The Critism of christanity here is alot higher then Islam on this website.
It's not so much greater physical presence, as it is people in influential roles, and hence ability to "bite back." A significant Jewish contingent makes up the Review staff, and I'd imagine the American as well, but can't fully confirm.
I remember when the A&F "Two wongs don't make a right" T-shirt extravaganza was unfolding, Asians said if A&F really had the guts, they'd lampoon the African Americans, but would never do that, because Sharpton and Jackson would be at their door the next day.
If they would have gone after the Jewish minority, they wouldn't even have a door.
Marlon Brando said this on Larry King:
"We've seen the n*gg*r, we've seen the greaseball, we've seen the ch*nk, we've seen the slit-eyed dangerous Jap, we've seen the wily Filipino. We've seen everything, but we've never seen the k*ke"
Now, while his intentions and position as a white male Christian put his statement clearly in the "Anti Semetic Fascist" category, he's subtextually, asking the same question of "Why are Jews untouchable?"
After what the Jews endured in Europe, it's no surprise the community has coalesced in this manner.
Bang Gully,
Everybody whines about the Sepia Mutiny:
(*) A mutineer complained that Amardeep makes excuses for the Congress whenever the discussion turns to the BJP.
(*) There is criticism of Christians.
(*) There is criticism of brahmins.
(*) Spoor Lam parodies Moor Nam mercilessly.
(*) There is a complaint that if the blog is about a women, the seventh post will be about her `hotness'.
(*) The second generation complains about the `aunties' and `uncles'.
The only ones spared of criticism are:
(*) atheists
(*) dalits
(*) Siddharth (perhaps the most formidable debator in this forum)
This is a good place to sharpen your debating skills. Even if you lose, you are behind an anonymous handle. Stop lurking, start posting.
HMF wrote:
Ahh, that makes sense. It's just a shame though that there can't be an equal standard for all minorities.
clueless- I have seen the criticism of Christianity on Sepia Mutiny and on Christians in general, however most of it is directed towards the actions of non-desi Christians. I don't see people trying to put down Jesus (aws) and try to discredit him, or state things like "Indian Christians are threats to the cultural integrity of Bharat), explicitly or implicitly. Take for example, that the writer of this thread even is an Indian Christian, and she has written, quite eloquently I might add, about her experiences as an Indian Christian.Thankfully for her, nobody came in to condemn her religion or anything. However, I highly doubt the same would happen here if a desi Muslim were to open themselves up, positives as well as negatives. There's probably two reasons for that:
a) There are tons of blogs where Muslims engage with other Muslims about issues pertaining to them.
b) Nobody wants to engage with dialouge with people who gnash and grind their teeth whenever Islam comes up.
I'm saying this is unfortunate because Muslims make up a significant part of desi America that is not represented here. Put it like this, the Muslims that do come here are admittedly no longer Muslims and they even hate Muslims so I don;t know if that helps you see what I'm saying. There's a reason they're here and can openly express their hate because it's all good in here for that specific form of hate to be expressed.
And before anybody says, "wah wah wah stop playing the victim here" , I'm gonna tell you to shut up and read. I am not complaining, all I am saying is that it is unfortunate that a site for Desi Americans creates an atmosphere where Muslims (who form a significant and I would say dynamic part of the desi diaspora) who are not "extremists" don't feel welcome.
I wish there was more discussion of the Muslim Desi American experience in "mainstream" Desi-Western fora too. I'm not Muslim, but I can only begin to imagine what it must have been like for people from this background in the States, without even the national community backing you up. This blog has been pretty diverse (straight men and women, a "half-Desi" man, a gay man, a vocal conservative, etc...) but it seems that (as far as I know), this very important cultural fault line has not been explored. That's too bad.
Recently coming from a southern "red-neck" type of area in USA where i befriended some arab muslims, my impression was that in such areas, if the muslims are "hot" looking, people are drawn to them in a positive way. I saw them being automatically accepted whereas the less attractive of the lot were relegated to suspicious feelings and mistrust being directed towards them from the same section.
southern "red-neck" type of area?????
I guess it ok to stereotype to the southern United States. Last time I checked the South in the United States as made alot of process in the last 40 years.
yeah progress...as of yesterday
Students attend school's first integrated prom, Georgia
"But not everyone in the town of 4,400, famous for its peanuts and Fire Ant Festival, was breaking with the past.
The "white prom" still went on last week."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/23/turner.prom/index.html
I'm guessing that was sarcasm, clueless...
rc: 401ks are all about choice. the expense ratios of the various funds w/i the 401k are made public. you may choose to avoid the bulk of expenses if you go with an index fund, which will charge you less than .5% of all your assets. you may choose to go with some of the higher fees (ususally around 2%) in hopes of a higher return from active management. since they--the ivy league history majors who are racist--get paid a % of assets under management, they have a vested interest in incresing the value of your fund. your interests and theirs are alligned.
you may also choose a money market account or savings account to avoid wall st altogether or bond fund (very low fees) and the 401k is also portable, you can roll it over into an ira when you leave your job and invest it the way you choose. use charles schwab if you are fee concious.
the smart money article touches on points that have very little to do with wall st fees (use of annuities, sharing fees with employers, administrative costs.) but needless to say, the 401k, (like discount brokerage, mutual funds, and index funds) has been a great boon to average americans. i've seen schoolteachers become multimillioaires.
i guarantee your 401k has an S&P index (probably vanguard) fund. Put your money there and forget about it. don't panic if the market crashes, it will rebound. the fees are very low and there is no active management so no one, racist or otherwise, is getting rich of your account. In 30yrs, after you see the magic of compound interst mated to wall st returns, you'll love me more than your wife. trust me, i'm right.
This thread has drifted a bit, but comment #72 is an argument for a Sepia Pakistan. A seperate site for a separate nation! Of course, the irony of 'bang gully' arguing for Pakistan is not lost ... (a new Suhrawardy for the digital age! ).
More seriously, I don't think SepiaMutiny is a congenial space for discussion of Muslim Desi-American issues, and while that is too bad, its partly a function of the generally Hinducentric, Indo-centric people who read and comment here. Not much the site authors can do about it, nor should they feel obligated to.
(For erstwhile East Pakistanis, American or otherwise, Addafication.com is a good blog).
You know what else is too bad? Being negative when there is no need-- the "gay man" you refer to was Muslim and so was extra-popular guest blogger Taz, who is Bangladeshi-American.
And as for you Bang Gully, I'd push back and say that
a) anti-Muslim comments AND anything even remotely Hindutva-esque is the shit that gets shut down and condemned the fastest on this site-- notice the unending popularity of Spoor Lam, a character who only exists to make Hindu fundamentalists seem like sputtering morons (no hate from me-- I love SL).
b) there have been tendencies to conflate being Indian with being Hindu here. It gets called out because EVERYTHING stupid does, if someone "active" is awake. Every "minority" group has been hated on via the comments section here, so complaining about oppression is amusing at best, annoying at worst. Desi christians HAVE been slammed here as not being Indian enough etc (but maybe they covered that in 2004, which is when I started reading). At one point, Anna got slammed for not being Christian enough-- which leads to my REAL point...nothing this blog does is good enough of pleases enough people.
c) I think a lot of my brown Muslim friends go out of their way to i.d. as Muslim first, Pakistani second for example. There's this desire to affiliate with the middle east versus the dirty south (asia). What the heck is this site supposed to do about THAT? Ah, yes. Another no-win situation.
d) The "this site needs to be policed more"/"others have been banned for doing less than whatever i find so objectionable yet what offends me didn't get someone banned" routine is unproductive and unrealistic. This is a site run by volunteers. They are human. Humans are imperfect. They also can't moderate 24/7. This might lead to a situation where someone pissed you offf and didn't get banned-- but did you think about the anti-Muslim spew that was deleted before you could even see it? Sometimes, what goes on here is just as important as what doesn't, whether or not you are aware of it.
/off soap box
I'm with you cluedude, how dare anyone say anything against the progressive South? It's not like this, this this, and this represent the true south!
I guess it ok to bring up the negative parts of the southern United States. Funny I could bring up examples of everything about this Cornell article and say it's the truth about Islam.
Clueless, I think what you are saying is righteous. And I am no fan of the South, but I can still appreciate you for trying to do what you're doing.
Ignorance or intolerance under a post which questions both things is...interesting.
Lurking Lemur Lover, I'm sorry I forgot the religious IDs of Taz and sin. This was not an attempt to attack the blog or be "needlessly negative". My apologies, seriously.
I also don't hold the views you talk about on points b-d. I mean, I know they're general points but I just want to make that clear.
While I don't think the Hinduvta situation is QUITE as clear as you make it out to be (I think advocacy of Hindu extremism goes on a little longer without action here than similar Islamic or Christian views would), I agree that there's at least a diversity of views here on Hinduism.
Clueless: Thank you for defending the white man/christians/america/the south. We need more brave people like you. You speak truth to power, brother. You are the Sepia Martin Luthra.
Really? I'd like to see where exactly in Islam it says construction of IEDs are authorized? However, to say the South has nurtured hatred, racism and bigotry, and been quite vocal about it, for quite some time is not "ignorance" or "intolerance". It's fact stating. This doesn't turn every other place north and west of Mississippi into Disneyland. But let's be real here.
AMFD I'm not defending the south/white man. I'm just tired of double standard here when it comes to islam and christanity.
I rather take my chances living in Alabama or Arkansas as a brown man, any day over being an infidel or kafir in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Iran,
and while that is too bad, its partly a function of the generally Hinducentric, Indo-centric people who read and comment here.
Of the American diaspora in general. Indians outnumber Pakistanis 12 to 1. I would say Muslims are underrepresented among the Indian diaspora as well, while Christians, Sikhs and Jains are overrepresented. That being said, your comment is unfair. There are sites and blogs that deserve the label "Hinducentric." SM is not one of them.
Manju,
I did not start working in last 5 years like the majority of posters here. I dont want to date myself but I have been around and know deeply how wall street works. I am not ideological like you, I dont care about right wing or left wing, I just care about my money. I hate it when someone takes my money away with shady underhand deals.
Oh, np. It's nice of you to handle me that way. I was a little fired up. ;)
No, they're actually not general, they are specifically meant for Bang Gully, whom I thought was wrong on a lot of things.
I do think it's that clear; witness how quickly saffron-colored news items on the news tab get axed. And now I'll go back to pondering the other part of what I quoted from you, because I don't think I've ever seen real Islamic or Christian extremist rhetoric on here. If it seems like "similar" Islamic stuff gets addressed asap, it's often because those comments will also break commenting guidelines more egregiously whereas some of the hindutva stuff...well it's a fine line between moderation and censorship, and I think if for example, there's no hate speech mixed in there, it might just stand.
I'm sorry, I genuinely realize, with no sarcasm intended, that the "article" was hurtful and exploits all the worst stereotypes about Muslims.
Nevertheless, I laughed at the beauty paegeant thing.
CS
I rather take my chances living in Alabama or Arkansas as a brown man, any day over being an infidel or kafir in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Iran,
So as long as they dont treat you as bad in Alabama as they treat non-muslims in Saudi Arabia, you will be happy with your treatment in Alabama?
You are well on your way to becoming a troll here. If thats the role you see fit for yourself, then more power to you.
Clueless: The very fact that everytime a brown man is put down and somebody complains, you feel incumbant upon yourself to bring up the fact that some other browns are worse off in some country half way across the world, its clear that at a certain level you dont believe that brown people belong here. They are always the other. They are perpetual foreigners who should be grateful to whatever rights they are accorded to in the US and if they complain they should me made aware of the plight of people of similar color half way across the world with whom they have nothing in common but the color of their skin.
This, my friend, is a pathological self hatred which you need to address.
incumbant*= incumbent
Okay, back to your respective corners, you heavyweights. Get some water squirted at yer face, etc.
rc:
you don't know what you're talking about. you're using some bizarre victim ideology to argue that ivy league history majors are looting your money and there's nothing you can do about it when the very 401k plans you talk about offer choices that allow you to avoid wall street money managers altogether.
the last thing all minorities here in the US need is to be afraid of the market.
now, you say all you care about is making money and i've given you some very specific advice on how to get market returns while avoiding the fees. take it and begone.
'southern "red-neck" type of area in USA where i befriended some arab muslims'
So they are allowed in that area? ;)
AMFD my problem is when people who live in America/Canada/Western Europe and they talk about how bad things are here all the time in there new country and instead talk about how great things are back in the "homeland".
Ikram- I have no idea what you're talking about, bruh. I'm not arguing here for a seperate forum here for Muslims. Just when Muslim issues do pop up, the hate is strong. That's all. I admitted that one reason a lot of Muslims don't post here is because theres tons of other blogs/forums for them to express their views. All I'm saying is that the site is not representative of a lot of people and Muslims numerically are significant in India and form the majority in two countries in South Asia, maybe three if you want to count Afghanistan. That's a big chunk you're missing out on. Now if the people running the site don't care, that's fine, then they should call it Bharat Mutiny or Hindu Mutiny or whatever. They don't seem to express that sentiment and wish to be inclusive, but their efforts are being hampered by a lot of ignorant people. So before they get on Cornell Review or whatever, they gotta check themselves.
Lemur- I thank you for bringing up the fact that a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment is banned and I am appreciative. I also understand that it is a hard job to do, and everything can't be checked. Nevertheless, when you set those high standards of trying to include everybody, you're gonna expect criticism when it fails to live up to that. One thing I would like to see and would probably help us all ignore the negativity and ignorance is if the site were revamped where if you responded to someone it would lead to a different chain so two people can argue amongst themselves while the rest of us focused on the topic. Okayplayer.com has this set up and although it doesnt stop people from posting stupidity, it does help to keep focus and ignore them. The way it is now, when I go to reply to someone, theres like 5 negative posts before I even hit "post" totally messing up the rhythm of the thread.
Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery - I'm new here to SM but I don't think Clueless's argument is trolling - it just appears to be his view.
As for defending the South - I'm from the South (NC) and yeah, sometimes it's annoying to see overgeneralizations of the South - ; I think Clueless has a point here when someone pointed out that "South has nurtured hatred, racism and bigotry, and been quite vocal about it, for quite some time is not "ignorance" or "intolerance". It's fact stating." " - Isn't this commenter (HMF) doing the exact same thing that she/he is accusing Clueless of.
Parts of Southern culture and interpretations of southern culture has nurtured bigotry, but so has interpretations of Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, etc. Coming from the South I'm annoyed with HMF's statement and the irony of it as she/he tries to protest generalized views of Islam.
Seriously, you are so wrong on every level. This site gets abuse from right wing Hindus for being anti-Hindu, and now you come along claiming it is some kind of incubator for Hindu nationalism. Your comment about them needing to rename themselves Bharat Mutiny or Hindu Mutiny is really snide and obnoxious for so many reasons. They work overtime to make this site welcoming to all, so they certainly don't need to 'check themselves'.
Maybe. Or maybe we need to check our expectations? This is an entertaining, ad-free site with a small community of regulars who seem intelligent and positive. I like other blogs, but they have ads or comment threads which are dirtier than cesspools or...etc. I'm grateful and happy for a good thing when I see it.
My roots are in a minority group which is far less powerful than Muslims are in India, but I don't feel oppressed here. I get what you are trying to say about how they set the bar so high, but I don't feel like punishing people when they give something their best shot, especially when they don't need to put aside their lives and do it in the first place.
My drink is 80% full and I got it from an open bar, but that's just my take.
Not least of all that most of the bloggers here are not even Hindu!
Word, Red Snapper...especially since this post wasn't about "getting on" Cornell's anything...it was just asking what we thought and giving us a chance to air our take.
Bang Gally --- just to point out how snide your comment about 'Hindu-Bharat Mutiny' is I'd like to point out that the permanent bloggers here consist of:
Two Christians
Two Sikhs
One Hindu Astronaut
One Siddhartha
Therefore Hindus are an oppressed minority at Sepia Mutiny even though the one Hindu has powers of space travel, that does not recompense for the Christian-Sikh alliance that overwhelms. Plus they have Muslim bloggers on guest spot, including one gay one. So there.
While I deplore your pointing out that it's actually a Sikh/big-kundi'd cabal which runs this joint (I was hoping no one would notice!), that is one of the funniest comments I've read in weeks. Very nice. I'd inappropriately hug you if you were near. ;)
Oh, holy shit.
Look, that's a RELIGION. It spans the entire globe. It's generalization of the worst sort. If you want to do a comparison, then you talk about Christianity and Islam, or Hinduism and Islam. But really...you can't even do that, because they're all so distinct and different. You lose a lot of information when you generalize, and I find that a lot of the generalization on this particular thread is of the worst sort: "make this easy to swallow for me, please."
But you people are adults, not baby birds. The world is infinitely complex. Go out and try and understand, for the love of pete!
I grew up in the South, in rural Mississippi, to be exact. Do bad things happen there? Sure. But it has its own story, and once you understand it and how it works, it's not the horrible demon everyone else seems to think it is. Likewise, I live on the East Coast. Are "Yankees" the evil robber-barons the South thinks they are? Nope.
And so here we go again with Muslims. The sheer idiocy of saying "so-and-so has done wrong, so I can say whatever about this other group here" is pretty indefensible if you're not six years old. The article was about how a Muslim student group is being targeted by a campus newspaper. You think that steering the conversation towards racism in the South does anything other than prevent dialogue?
You're off-base, and off-target, and off-track, and you know it, too.
And in defense of the Mutiny...please, feel free to start up a blog that is about whatever it is you think a blog should be about. Go on, do it. But STOP WHINING HERE. I got sick of those idiotic comments three years ago; it's sad that in this way nothing's changed. You think this site is anti-Muslim? Great. Bully for you. Likewise if you think it's anti-Christian, anti-Hindu, anti-electric-car, anti-pasta, anti-matter, anti-bellum (yes, I know it's with an "e," god rot your soul), or anti-whatever-the-hell-it-is-you-think-is-so-goddamn-important.
The truth is usually more complicated than you care to understand, so go live your simple, premasticated, short-bus-riding, ideology-driven life and be happy, but god! Stop talking about it!
I hate electric cars. They suck.
Salil, may I offer you some porn to cheer you? :D
What about me? I made you laugh and everything.
Red Snapper, may I make you some porn, to cheer you? :D
Can I star in it?