This whole story is so pathetic. I think people in India are just "sue" happy - I mean, there were multiple, random people suing Aishwarya/Hrithik for a kiss in a movie. The worst part of this story, IMO, is that everyone here is talking about it - from people at work to Z100 to every other gossip blog. We just got over the Sanjaya thing, and now this? Not a good time for brown people =)

dude, it's a different culture....

btw, this reminds me of that cleric in pakistan who wanted to put madonna on trial for offending the sensibility of muslims. not nearly as bad, but if i talk about a muslim culture in the same breath with indian culture, well, i think you know what this atheist thinks about it all....

Maybe it’s because I’m an ABD, but I just don’t get it.

Ding ding ding. Tell him what he's won Bob.

We'll see how much "backbone" you have if you have to face effigy burners. Shilpa played it the only way it could be played: when faced with maniacs, pander. Until you're at a safe distance. Then you can lob rhetorical grenades.

Can you all think of funnier lines for her to have said at least?

I want to know where the effigy burners are when the Bollywood starlets are doing manic pelvic thrusts and dancing in ways that would put a stripper to shame?

I'm guessing they are at the back of theater getting themselves off...

Sorry hit Post before I was done with my rant...

Anyhow, the lot of them are hypocrites because if they think a kiss on the cheek is obscene then they need to apply that same standard to 99% of the obscene crap that comes out of Bollywood each year.

i think you're being too harsh on shetty. her comments have to be seen in the light of the society in which she's saying it. what richard gere did is not worthy of a frivolous lawsuit or any ridiculous outrage, but it's not common practice either, no matter what they show in bollywood movies. and he didn't just give her a peck on the cheek. even when you watch bollywood awards shows, i don't recall seeing any celebrities greeting each other (of the opposite sex) with a kiss unless it's part of the entertainment act or something. they might shake hands or do a namaskar or hug. she's right when she says kissing on the cheek between men and women is part of his culture but not part of indian "decorum" at public functions with dignitaries, celebrities etc. that said, some people have too much time on their hands and this was no insult to anyone (now some of these music videos....), especially given the nature of the function at which it occurred and the audience.

"LML baba LML"

I don't think her response was "lame-ass" at all. It was a very diplomatic way to flip the bird to middle-class Indian sexual hypocrisy. I understand she's a good deal of Aids Awareness work since "Phir Milenge" in the subcontinent.

I think you're reading this sentence wrong, Ennis.

But this was not such a big thing or so obscene for people to overreact in such manner

I understand people’s sentiments, but I don’t want a foreigner to take bad memories from here.

""then they need to apply that same standard to 99% of the obscene crap that comes out of Bollywood each year."

some of them do. i think shilpa shetty and one other actress were sued for some magazine photos deemed "offensive". there's always someone filing a silly lawsuit over these things. but what passes in the movies is very different to what passes in public functions or social interactions in real life.

I think Gere should have gone for the lips or even better shown "How to have safe sex with Shipa Shetty" on stage.

I'm guessing they are at the back of theater getting themselves off...

LOL, that wuz wut i was thinking before i read that line!

This whole Gere/Shetty furore is utterly idiotic, and I do not mean to condone it or the self-appointed stewards of 'Indian culture' in any way. This court case thing is really the limit -- as you point out, especially in a country where the whole legal system is notoriously bogged down with IMPORTANT cases.

However, one would have expected a relatively culturally savvy, well-travelled and educated person like Richard Gere to show a leettle more sensitivity and intelligence in guaging how his behaviour, at the least, might possibly embarass either Shilpa or the others around.

I haven't seen such a display of grabbing a woman/man, bending them over and 'kissing' even during awards shows in the US. Context is everything, Mr Gere!

I think you're reading this sentence wrong, Ennis.

But this was not such a big thing or so obscene for people to overreact in such manner

"So", in this case isn't a synonym for "very" (common "Indian English", she's not admitting it was obscene at all, her intent is clear in the first fragment.

I agree with sirc here, Ennis needs to learn Indian English :D

PS...what a great choice of accompanying pic!

I haven't seen such a display of grabbing a woman/man, bending them over and 'kissing' even during awards shows in the US.

Did you not see the oscars where Adrien Brody won and Halle Berry was a presenter and he did the same exact thing Gere did?
So yes, it has happened here in the US.

Did you not see the oscars where Adrien Brody won and Halle Berry was a presenter and he did the same exact thing Gere did? So yes, it has happened here in the US.

You stole my thunder! I was just about to mention that.

Honestly, what really bothers me about this whole thing is that the warrant for Shetty alleged that she failed to fend off Gere's advances. That's really pathetic, and what's more, it's a neon sign that India is still a place where everything that happens to a woman is really all her own fault.

That's really pathetic, and what's more, it's a neon sign that India is still a place where everything that happens to a woman is really all her own fault.

totally. she's not a virgin, so of course it doesn't matter anyhow, right?

Did you not see the Oscars where Adrien Brody won and Halle Berry was a presenter and he did the same exact thing Gere did? So yes, it has happened here in the US.

Or Julia Roberts going all Montessori on Denzel? Or Britney getting a tonsilectomy from Madonna? In the annals of onstage badmaashi, this Gere thing ain't nothing. Misjudged, but amateurish at best.

But someone give Shilpa's publicity agent a Padma Shri pronto. A genius year thus far.

THIS IS SPART-TA. Here children swim in volcanoes, swagger about the promenade with their balls full of testosterone. Show some backbone like Spartan women. Stand straight while taking it in. Did the girl's shoulders touch her coccyx when she bent over backwards? Parade Saaavdhaaaan!!!

SPART-TANS, PREPARE FOR GLORY!

Okay, only after watching this clip on the Daily Show do I see that there is prolonged ass-grabbing.

Death to Gere. F him..he hasn't made a good movie since "Breathless" anyway.

Bengali Chick and Bad I Girl: well, I guess I haven't watched enough Oscar shows etc :)

But still. It was just a remarkably stupid thing to do, even if this calling for his blood smacks of rank hypocrisy and an equal stupidity.

Some people seriously need to get laid...

okay, perhaps a stupid questions: are you not allowed to smooch your honey in india? is this a law.. no public dispay of affection? does this apply for single people, women, married couples? what's the deal?

are you not allowed to smooch your honey in india?

I don't know about "allowed", but I've never seen it done off-screen. I also recall my grandmother-in-law being mighty offended at all the kissing in Monsoon Wedding.

Besides that's the whole point of obscenity laws, right? "I don't know what 'obscene' means, but I know obscenity when I see it." Obscene means different things to different people.

[...] and what's more, it's a neon sign that India is still a place where everything that happens to a woman is really all her own fault.

Agreed. It is this kind of 'you invited it' mentality that disgusts me. Why are they burning effigies of Shilpa Shetty? Aside from this being a highly extreme response to a (relatively) unremarkable event, it further propagates this degrading attitude towards women. The hypocrisy pisses me off too, since the janta doesn't seem to have much trouble with half-naked women on screen (evidenced by ticket sales). People in India tell me everyday that the country is 'all grown up and probably more 'out there' than North America in certain aspects' but things like this make me wonder.

BC:

Here are some previous posts on the topic: 1, 2 ... I know we had more somewhere ...

Bengali Chick - check out this article regarding kissing scandals in India in the past few years, including this most recone one.
Apparently it is against the law in India to kiss in public.
Interesting article and writing by a brown person no less!!! :-D

In India, even if you are married, you are not supposed to hug, kiss, or even glance lovingly at each other. This is the universal 'social' law - whether you are muslim or christian or anyone else. Any public display of affection might be offensive because that means that you are still getting laid. And everyone knows that sex is dirty. :)

I think people in India are just "sue" happy - I mean, there were multiple, random people suing Aishwarya/Hrithik for a kiss in a movie.

I think people in India are just "murder" happy - I mean, there were multiple, random people murdering other people.

Any public display of affection might be offensive because that means that you are still getting laid. And everyone knows that sex is dirty. :)

Well then.. I'm just a dirty ho. Thanks for the info folks!

gere apologizes. go homeland brownz, go!

Poor Richard Gere.

It is not like he did this!. [link to Klimt painting, maybe NSFW]

india's "rising"...and they're really offended to be put in that position!

I think people in India are just "murder" happy - I mean, there were multiple, random people murdering other people.

Stop India bashing NOW!, unless you want your own effigy burnt :)

I'm guessing they are at the back of theater getting themselves off...

I know many ultra religious guys who talk alot about morals. they tend to be the ones that do the most horrible things when others arent looking.

Did you not see the oscars where Adrien Brody won and Halle Berry was a presenter and he did the same exact thing Gere did?

Right. And Gere may have been imitating that, also thinking that he was actually flattering the colored girl by kissing her.

Nothing wrong with putting westerners on the defensive. They have been treated like gods by desis for far too long.

On the other hand the stupidity and hypocrisy of indians is boundless. I'd say that it is a far greater moral offense that India not just tolerates but even provides religious sanction to child prostitution and child marriage. There are tens of thousands of child prostitutes in the red-light districts of Mumbai alone. Why arent these silly hypocrites protesting that?

And Gere may have been imitating that, also thinking that he was actually flattering the colored girl by kissing her.

It was a reference to his film, "Shall We Dance". Hence the dip.

they tend to be the ones that do the most horrible things when others arent looking.

when my dad was in grad school a local fundie muslim tried to convince him to buy playboy for him. his rationale was that if he didn't buy it it wasn't haram.

BadIndian girl's article had the following quote --

Prior to Indian independence in 1947, when the British government regulated film censorship, kissing was permissible on the screen.

I wonder when kissing in public became taboo. Is this Victorian Morality or did it start during the medieval ages?

It was a reference to his film, "Shall We Dance".

I know this is off topic, but the Japanese original is a great movie, put it on your queue today!

Why arent these silly hypocrites protesting that?

yep.

two off the cuff reactions

1) isn't this of trivialization genuine injustice and oppression and want?

2) this is so f**king funny.

when my dad was in grad school a local fundie muslim tried to convince him to buy playboy for him. his rationale was that if he didn't buy it it wasn't haram.

thats sort of like those islamic bonds. Its not interest because weve structured the "interest" payments as period equity payments. allah hu akhbar, wheres my bond coupon?!

I wonder when kissing in public became taboo. Is this Victorian Morality or did it start during the medieval ages?

You know Avi, I've always wondered about that as well. I mean we went from the Kama Sutra to banning kissing in films.
My cousin has a highly unscientific theory that conservatism was brought to India by the Mughal invaders. Not sure what I think about that but if you make a 12 degrees of Kevin Bacon flow chart you can maybe make the connection from Islam in the Middle East and the Burka/hijab to the covering of women's heads with their saris (especially in Northern India). When my mom first got married, her MIL insisted she always cover her hair with her sari in public and when the men were home.

I wonder when kissing in public became taboo. Is this Victorian Morality or did it start during the medieval ages?

I think it was the Victorians. Those idiots! I'm sure the Mughals weren't totally against a little PDA - didn't Shahjehan have 300+ illegal wives who all lived together haveli-style?

Then again, the Victorians also introduced to the world the wonders of the gentleman's club.

My cousin has a highly unscientific theory that conservatism was brought to India by the Mughal invaders.

conservatism is too broad, but perhaps the covering up of particular parts? e.g., i know that in kerala in the early 20th century muslim peasant women were walking around topless until the mullahs told them to stop. they did, and their hindu overlords got pissed and told them to keeping dressing as they had. so some muslim men killed a few landlords and their women didn't have to go topless again.

Not sure what I think about that but if you make a 12 degrees of Kevin Bacon flow chart you can maybe make the connection from Islam in the Middle East and the Burka/hijab to the covering of women's heads with their saris (especially in Northern India).

as a point of fact, there is some evidence that the practice of veiling and purdah which is common amongst muslims was picked up from elite byzantine (veiling) and sassanid/persian practice (purdah), since these were the lands they conquered. note that athenian citizen women of any status were secluded and segregated out of the view of men. a lot of these 'conservative' and 'liberal' tendencies lay latent within most cultures and they wax & wane (e.g., before the victorian period there was the relative license of the late 18th century).

I think it was the Victorians. Those idiots! I'm sure the Mughals weren't totally against a little PDA - didn't Shahjehan have 300+ illegal wives who all lived together haveli-style?

Then again, the Victorians also introduced to the world the wonders of the gentleman's club.

Can we then claim that the hindu right wing is a curruoting foreign influence on our culture, and go back to making out in the streets like good hindu bunnyrabbits?

as

a point of fact, there is some evidence that the practice of veiling and purdah which is common amongst muslims was picked up from elite byzantine (veiling) and sassanid/persian practice (purdah), since these were the lands they conquered. note that athenian citizen women of any status were secluded and segregated out of the view of men.

RTA, have you ever thought about trying out for Jeopardy? Becuase what you just said seems like the most arcane bit of knowledge, then again, I could just be a dumbass ;)

Anyhoo, you could be the brown Ken Jenkins (minus the religion)...

let me offer some quick anthropological perspective: there is a tendency for control and repression of female sexuality to occur in societies with a lot of social stratification and patrilineal inheritance. the reasoning is simple: if you lock your women inside you can be assured of paternity confidence (which cross-culturally ranges from .5% to 35% misattribution per generation). if land, status and money are on the line men in positions of power make sure to 'safeguard' their lineage. in much of africa garden/hoe based agriculture means that women control the means of economic production, and paternity isn't as big of an issue since women are the primary economic breadwinners for their children. as these societies 'modernize' this is changing and men who are obligated to care for their 'children' get much more fixated on making sure that those children are theres. and the easiest way to do this before paternity testing was to lock your woman in the house and monopolize sexual access.

So now that women are starting to work again ...

So now that women are starting to work again ...

well, look at the attitude toward sex & work in the USA since the 1960s. i think the entry of women to the workforce, combined with the pill, was the primer for a perfect sexual storm. and look at the increased emphasis on guys working out since the ladies aren't so economically dependent on 'em.

also, re: brownz & sex, the story of sita and her virtue and fidelity suggest to me that the muslims didn't bring many of these attitudes. sita is a lot like penelope it seems to me.

RTA, have you ever thought about trying out for Jeopardy?

i was weak on pop culture. but yeah, i auditioned once in SF. barely missed the cut :-(

Has anyone ever thought that maybe the reasons Indians cover up so much (meaning traditional garb like saris etc.) is that we are so damn hairy and nobody wants to see hairy legs and backs?

I mean Polynesians traditional didn't cover up at all and they don't have any body hair and they live in a climate much more temparate than India.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe the reasons Indians cover up so much (meaning traditional garb like saris etc.) is that we are so damn hairy and nobody wants to see hairy legs and backs?

id rather see indian grls wearing less than more as a cultural norm. but then again, im a guy and therefore creepy inside.

is that we are so damn hairy and nobody wants to see hairy legs and backs?

you made me laught out loud. i'm a hairy beast right now in despearte need of threading.

you made me laught out loud. i'm a hairy beast right now in despearte need of threading.

that sounds painfull. yikes.

that sounds painfull. yikes.

what's painful right now is looking at my fuzzy upper lip and disgusting eyebrows. i'm scaring myself.

you made me laught out loud. i'm a hairy beast right now in despearte need of threading.

BG, I made myself LOL too and I too am in desperate need of threading, that's why I guess I thought of that... HA!

So now that women are starting to work again ...

.....you will see a dramatic decline in population growth.

Women who dont depend on men for their livelihoods marry later (or not at all), and have fewer children (or none at all). This has been the experience of all countries that have empowered their womenfolk with educations and jobs. Including Ayatollah-ruled, fundamentalist shia muslim Iran.

Lets face it, a correction to the exploding desi population is long overdue. India cant even feed half its children yet continues to expand its population by ~18 million every year.

pain for vanity...tough trade off...

i'm a hairy beast right now in despearte need of threading.

My Indian girlfriends and I always marvel how the conversation always turn to hair removal when we are together! And somehow we managed to do that here as well, not surprised.

But to try and stay on topic and keep it focused, I wonder if Shilpa was need in a threading herself? Wonder what Gere thought...

"Damn, she's hairier than my gerbil, what the hell was I thinking?"

Paging the Original Mango Pickle ...

"Damn, she's hairier than my gerbil, what the hell was I thinking?"

:D This is the second time you've made me laugh out loud today, Bad Indian G :D.

"Paging the Original Mango Pickle ... "

Ok, Ennis I don't get it??? What are referencing to?

Somebody who used to comment here whose favorite topic on her own blog was depilation. Any time hair removal showed up on SM, she had something to say.

"Damn, she's hairier than my gerbil, what the hell was I thinking?"

Perphaps the statement Shlipa should have made instead, "I understand this is his culture, not ours. You can't blame the man, he momentarily mistook me for a gerbil. While I am clearly not a rodent, Mr. Gere is attracted to fuzzy things and I haven't gotten threaded recently!"

What is threading?

Eye of a Needle

Threading is an ancient Indian art of hair removal by using a cotton thread.

Ok I'm not sure if it's really a big deal in India, or if the Western media just found this story so amusing and ratings-worthy that they've splattered it all over the news . I'm inclined to believe it is the latter.

Like countless comments have already mentioned before me, judging Shilpa Shetty is easy sitting here in the US - India is just weird. Trust me.

I was in a park with my gf this one time in Bangalore around 9 pm , some time not too long ago, and suddenly this police man comes out of nowhere with a big stick and starts whacking me with it ! The SOB said he'd take us to the police station to get us married ! I was like WTFFFFFFFF but was too freaked out about the potential harassment at the station so I did what he wanted - handed him 100 rupees and got the hell outta there..

Ah those were the days :P

Come on now are they being for real with this? Damn that some wild stuff right there.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe the reasons Indians cover up so much (meaning traditional garb like saris etc.) is that we are so damn hairy and nobody wants to see hairy legs and backs?

Saris like these don't cover too much of our hairiness. :)

From Wiki on Saris

"One point of particular controversy is the history of the choli, or sari blouse, and the petticoat. Some researchers state that these were unknown before the British arrived in India, and that they were introduced to satisfy Victorian ideas of modesty. Previously, women only wore one draped cloth and casually exposed the upper body and breasts. Other historians point to much textual and artistic evidence for various forms of breastband and upper-body shawl."

I thought you were going to link to this.

This has a North Indian vs. South Indian dimension as well,

Wiki:

"It is possible that the researchers arguing for a recent origin for the choli and the petticoat are extrapolating from South India, where it is indeed documented that some tribal women wore only the sari and exposed the upper part of the body. Poetic references from works like Shilappadikaram indicate that during the sangam period in ancient South India, a single piece of clothing served as both lower garment and head covering, leaving the bosom and midriff completely uncovered. In Kerala there are many references to women being topless, including many pictures by Raja Ravi Varma. Even today, women in some rural areas do not wear cholis. In the privacy of homes, even city women sometimes find it convenient to drape the sari as a cover-all, without the choli."

Also, more information about why the saris expose the navel:

"In the Natya Shastra (an ancient Indian treatise describing ancient dance and costumes), the navel of the Supreme Being is considered to be the source of life and creativity, hence the midriff of the dancer is left bare."

you know you've come full circle when gustav klimts painting is in the post..thanks ennis..

and as for the entire incident.. those politicians need to get a life..seriously.. they had it on a cnn blurb on TV today.. i mean.. come on now india.. do you have nothing better to to teach the world about?

i mean for crying out loud, he went for an HIV/AWAREMENSS campaign...and the kiss is getting more publicity than AIDS...
the irony of it all.

maybe they all need to listen to this..

I thought you were going to link to this.

LOL!

There a couple of issues. The law suits are frivolous. The judges and the guys filing them get a vicarious pleasure in getting famous personalities squirm and show up at their court which would make for grand theater, if they actually showed up. The Indian media is as usual blowing this way out of proportion knowing that it sells. The western media takes it and runs with it knowing that it sells and they can have some fun at the expense of those 'backward' Indians. The hep Indians get twisted over this and get ashamed at their backward fringe. This will last until the next masala comes along. Remember the Khushboo incident in Tamil Nadu sometime back.

Modesty in dress is a recent phenomenon in India. I remember older relatives and others when I was young in rural Tamil Nadu not wearing blouses. Historically the norm was a single pice of unstitched cloth, the sari for women and the veshti for men. Young women also had a piece of cloth around the breast called the kacchai to enhance their beauty. This was fairly common in Kerala as well and well documented there due to politicing the issue due to caste and power dynamics earlier in the century. It was far more conservative in the north due to Islamic influence from a little earlier, though not uniformly true of all communities.

Though skimpy dresses in earlier times was the norm, it was still considered improper social conduct to show public affection of a sexual nature. Sex of all kinds was to be done in private by respectable people. In other words, public show of affection of a sexual nature and skimpy clothes did not go together in ancient Indian as in the modern west. Of course, there were all kinds of lewd and bawdy stuff in street theater performances that carries over into the Indian movies to some extent.

I thought you were going to link to this.

Methinks Pam Bhandari is a shoo-in for this year's SAJA Journalism Awards. The fact that the deadline has passed and that Ms. Bhandari penned her article in 2004 is immaterial; the following lines are epic, perceptive, and timeless: she must be duly recognized for her genius.

According to a recent survey, Bollywood's sexiest appeal is in wet sari scenes. The Website polled on various wet sari scenes and 20,000 voted the top eight.

In Bollywood, one way the Directors and Producers have made sexy scenes available is through getting the actress wet while taking a bath or getting soaked in rain without much undergarment. The audience historically went nuts over these scenes. Recent trend shows such a scene required in each movie. And except a few Bombshells, most of the actresses do not mind it. Lisa Ray's wet clothes scenes are sexiest. However the slideshow will show the top eight scenes.

WTF! Wonder if Iron Maiden or Metallica concerts ever made it to India. Better yet GWAR or some other heavy heavy grunge sSHhit. If that is obscene come over to my "neck" of the woods for a kiss.

When I first saw the video, I thought one could almost make the argument that the multiple kisses and the hug with Shilpa almost falling down constitued a civil battery especially when put in the context of PDA in India. I thought she was trying to get away. She of course recovered and then put up a smiley face which shows consent.

Gah!! Some indian people are just so backward regarding this "obscene" incident.You know it's true!!!I can't believe it is getting so much press.This actually reminds me of the time, my boyfriend and I were sitting in a park in Bangalore, enjoying the surroundings in a seemingly secluded area, when he nonchalantly kissed me on the cheek. A local man appeared soon after and admonished us for such behaviour. He wondered why we were kissing near a playground where the children could have seen.(lol!!) I swear we must have been doing horizontal tango in his eyes.

Remember kids: In India, Kissing=Sex=Pleasure=Very very bad

in bangalore and chennai (moreso at the beach), there are couples all over the place holding hands and hugging, also sitting on a bench/ground with arms around each other and head on each others shoulders. i've never seen anyone kiss in public, but it seems like other physical displays of affection are more tolerated. that's just what i've noticed during my last 3 visits to those cities.

Nice way to encourage sexual harassment, Ennis.

I'll remember that this blog is an unfriendly place for women in future.

If only all these people raising a furor over Gere would invest their energy into fighting child sexual abuse

Nice way to encourage sexual harassment, Ennis. I'll remember that this blog is an unfriendly place for women in future.

If you think that the Klimt image encourages sexual harassment, then I have no idea what to say in response, nor do I know what kind of blog you would consider a "friendly place" for women.

Okay, only after watching this clip on the Daily Show do I see that there is prolonged ass-grabbing.

Yeah, pretty nervy of Gere to go on The Daily Show this week and represent that it was just a a little peck...old goat. May there be a warrant for his arrest which someone or other tries to enforce every time he goes to Dharamsala over the next seven years.

Nice way to encourage sexual harassment, Ennis.

Wow. Didn't realize kisses on the cheek were considered sexual harrassment- and of course, Ennis didn't do the act himself, nor did he tell people through this blog to go out and perform random acts of kiss cheeking. He as a blogger, simply reported on what was out there.

Personally agree with Ennis- Shetty coulda acted with more tact. Should taken a lesson from our dear Bollywood feminist Bips whose words were graceful when she was sexually harassed.

I was reading Kimberly Crenshaw's Mapping the Margins where she talks about the intersectionality between racism and feminism, and I'm sure there's probably some angle out there relating to this. But what's get me about all of this is that you can have something like Gere kissing Shetty and the government goes wild, but then you have that story about the girls that got molested (sorry, "eve-teasing") on the streets of India at that festival and the government did nothing about it. How about knowing when to pick battles, eh?

That's right- those two woman friendly articles I linked were from the women friendly Sepia Mutiny.

i think that the people on this board are being a little too harsh on the indian populace. after all, we must remember that it is the shiv sena, not a mainstream group, making a huge deal out of this. how many people in india do you think actually care that richard gere kissed shilpa shetty. when the KKK protests all the things they like to protest, most people don't take it as the viewpoint of all americans. im sure about 99.99% of the population didn't give it another thought, but, of course, we are all getting our news from american news media, who we all know love to do nothing more than demonstrate to its audience the ways of those crazy foreigners who'll never be good as us.
we must recognize this supposed "news" story partially originates from a desire to marvel and snicker at the backwardness of the country in question.

I love the Klimt image. We call it the archetype at our house- the Indian and the redhead and used it for bday party invitations. Khan, the Indian warrior played so well by Ricardo Montalban- in the original Star Trek episode, fell in love with one as did I.

#86 Sonia,

If only all these people raising a furor over Gere would invest their energy into fighting child sexual abuse

The people raising the furor are doing so because someone paid them to do it. You will have to find some org that pays people to raise a ruckus for child sexual abuse. Will someone do it? If so, will it attract as much Indian media coverage as Gere and Shilpa. And if so, will American media pick it up with such alacrity as this kiss incident or the Anna Nicole incident for that matter?

As the leaders of the two sides met mid-way, the cameras were tested and the reporters walked around to assess the situation.

At that point the leaders of the pro- and anti-stance walked up to a reporter of a major English-language news network and asked her, "What would you like us to do?". She looked puzzled. To which they said, "Tell us when you want us to start shouting. We can even burn effigies if you want."

Performance

As the cameras rolled, some youngsters whipped out combs to sort out their hair and then began their performance. The press on its part just watched, shrugged and filmed. Needless to say, few of those present knew anything about the issue they were protesting against.

It was apparent, as with most issues, that they were a mob completely manipulated by vested interests, who were not out for public grievances but personal glory.

From: Burning effigies is a part of culture

The person who filed this case has already filed 50 cases before all for frivolous reasons. The angry supreme court is taking strong action against these small time thugs and lower court who are making mockery of the judiciary.

when the KKK protests all the things they like to protest, most people don't take it as the viewpoint of all americans. im sure about 99.99% of the population didn't give it another thought, but, of course, we are all getting our news from american news media, who we all know love to do nothing more than demonstrate to its audience the ways of those crazy foreigners who'll never be good as us. we must recognize this supposed "news" story partially originates from a desire to marvel and snicker at the backwardness of the country in question.

So? Does that mean the backwardness is just a projection of western orientalism on the Indian subcontinent? Backwardness is present in India and it won't go away if the Western foreigners do not condemn it. Indian backwardness does exist, and this episode (and the Khushboo one) illustrates that women are blamed for any incident with sexual connotations. The court has issued arrest warrants for the two actors. Seriously, this has not ever happened in the West. There is no point for comparison.

About the KKK, the KKK has not filed a lawsuit against an American white actress being kissed by a foreigner in public. The courts also have not honored their request and issued an arrest warrant. The KKK also has been condemned left and right, it is socially unacceptable for a American to be racist. When the KKK burn an effigy of a white actress for being kissed and manhandled by a foreigner and file a lawsuit at the court with the court issuing warrants for their arrest, I would accept your critique of Western hypocrisy.

And if so, will American media pick it up with such alacrity as this kiss incident or the Anna Nicole incident for that matter?

You probably have not read Kristof in the good old NYT, have you? :)

warrants for their arrest, I would accept your critique of Western hypocrisy.

Avi ji,

While your passion is commendable but slightly misplaced. Naive, blind sighted.......I am not sure your bold face happiness.

Indian lower courts are full of idiots, and these warrants are never enforced.

However,

KKK has done stranger things, more than you want to acknowledge. To this day, you can drive in small towns in America - in Texas, Indiana, Louisiana, Idaho, Dakotas where city has banners of KKK as you enter the town. Not to forget the neo-Nazis in rural America, and their influence on rural youth.

As late as 70s, a mixed race couple in deep south was arrested by the local cops on flimsy morality law which was never enforced, but was used against them.

Few years ago, Monster Ball was the first movie in Hollywood where there was really a love scene and a story between an African American, and a white American...........before that was sugar coated Sidney Poiter's "Who is coming for the dinner?" or platonic (no relationship) like Pelican Brief. To this day, intimate relationship between African American and white American is hardly touched in American media, even though it goes back to 100s of years.

SM Intern said:

If you think that the Klimt image encourages sexual harassment, then I have no idea what to say in response, nor do I know what kind of blog you would consider a "friendly place" for women.

Taz said:

Wow. Didn't realize kisses on the cheek were considered sexual harrassment

I'd consider a non-consensual manhandling on stage by an old white dude sexual harassment, yes. Women's bodies are not public property.

- and of course, Ennis didn't do the act himself, nor did he tell people through this blog to go out and perform random acts of kiss cheeking. He as a blogger, simply reported on what was out there.

I was reading Kimberly Crenshaw's Mapping the Margins where she talks about the intersectionality between racism and feminism, and I'm sure there's probably some angle out there relating to this.

Some vigilante justice by KKK as late as 2005.

In a July 2005 incident, a Hispanic man's house was burned down in Hamilton, Ohio, after accusations that he sexually assaulted a nine-year-old white girl. Klan members in Klan robes showed up afterward to distribute pamphlets. In May 2006, a Ku Klux Klan group led an anti-immigration march in Russellville, Alabama.[71]

Avi ji, what do you think about this?

Avi ji, Some thing to think about how American courts have acted about "white women" relatioship, and 2000 Alabama law repeal. Direct quotes from wikipedia:

California Supreme Court in Perez v. Sharp effectively repealed the California anti-miscegenation statutes, thereby making California the first state in the twentieth century to do so. It would be nearly two decades more before these laws were struck down nationwide. In 1965, Virginia trial court Judge Leon Bazile sentenced to jail an interethnic couple who had married in Washington, D.C., writing:

Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow,and red, and he placed them on separate continents. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.[6]

This decision was eventually overturned in 1967, 84 years after Pace v. Alabama, when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled unanimously in Loving v. Virginia that

Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law.

At the time that anti-miscegenation laws were ruled unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court, 16 states still had laws prohibiting interethnic marriage. Those laws were not completely repealed until November 2000, when Alabama became the last state to repeal its law. According to Salon.com:

...after a statewide vote in a special election, Alabama became the last state to overturn a law that was an ugly reminder of America’s past, a ban on interracial marriage (sic). The one-time home of George Wallace and Martin Luther King Jr. had held onto the provision for 33 years after the Supreme Court declared anti-miscegenation laws unconstitutional. Yet as the election revealed—40 percent of Alabamans voted to keep the ban

40% in 2000 percent ain't small minority. Hyper-ventilating over women being stolen by outsiders is an universal hysteria.

@avi:

Backwardness is present in India and it won't go away if the Western foreigners do not condemn it.

whoa!! welcome churchill back from the grave.

you think the court system gives a sh!t to "western foreigners" condemning it? thankfully no. personally i am glad it is that way.

that said, backwardness is present in india---though for this incident, i would call it stupidity not backwardness. everything else aside, it is a huge travesty of justice to even consider insignificant events like this while the court system in india is bogged down by years of pending cases.

illustrates that women are blamed for any incident with sexual connotations

again, we are equal opportunity backward here. warrants for both!

and the kristof article. who do you think works on behalf of the human trafficking victims? not most of your western foreigners. we have our problems, we solve them. you gloat about them and gleefully say how backward we are.

do you have any idea about the profile of trafficking that goes on? do you have the slightest idea of how to counter it? i don't need the sound bites you will take from kristof's article---his article has a point, you don't. do you have any idea of the grinding poverty that makes otherwise normal people abet human trafficking in bihar? and can you even say if poverty is a dominant issue here? which will help better: empowering women only, or empowering community leaders? is lack of access to education relevant, or is it a spurious variable? does trafficking cut across community lines, or are some more vulnerable than others? how much is across state lines (easier to curb, indication of how organized the mafia is)? is it diffuse, or are there some gangs running most of the trafficking?

i will listen to you if you have anything half way intelligent to say. or if you even knew what questions to ask. the difference from kristof and you: he sees the problem, you think the people are the problem.

conservatism is too broad, but perhaps the covering up of particular parts? e.g., i know that in kerala in the early 20th century muslim peasant women were walking around topless until the mullahs told them to stop. they did, and their hindu overlords got pissed and told them to keeping dressing as they had. so some muslim men killed a few landlords and their women didn't have to go topless again.

No, I don't think they were going 'topless' as you might think... just not wearing blouses under their sarees. Makes sense if you want to save yourself the trouble of tailoring. That's the reason the saree is worn the way it is. It may be considered revealing in modern times, but censorable parts were certainly not bare.

as a point of fact, there is some evidence that the practice of veiling and purdah which is common amongst muslims was picked up from elite byzantine (veiling) and sassanid/persian practice (purdah), since these were the lands they conquered.

Yes, and I think that in turn was picked up from the ancient Assyrians, who also transmitted it to Jerusalem -- which is why all Abrahamic religions have strong veiling traditions (to different extents, of course).

This actually reminds me of the time, my boyfriend and I were sitting in a park in Bangalore, enjoying the surroundings in a seemingly secluded area, when he nonchalantly kissed me on the cheek.

You must have been in a particularly conservative part of the city or something. The park near where I lived had nothing but young couples all over each other, to the extent that even felt uncomfortable

Kush Tandon saahb,

Please do not call me 'ji'. I am really much younger than you and feel awkward when someone older than me calls me by a respectful term. Thank you though.

I know that America has a huge race problem, it seems to be this country's original 'sin' and it will never go away. I am surprised to learn about the KKK's sickening history, though. America is also medieval when it comes to potraying races (look at the 'safe' minority pairings in Grey's Anatomy, for instance).

Yes, the medieval instict is there everywhere and is universal. It is not unique to the east or the west. I have not ever disputed that. But the medieval instict is curbed somewhat in the United States. There are states like Alabama, where the law against interracial marriage is revoked only by 2000, but that does not mean that anyone can sue an actress with the lower courts taking them seriously by issuing arrest warrants. Something in India must be used to curbed this 'medieval instict' - either a fine for anyone filing frivolous charges of obscenity. A previous commenter has written that the same man who filed the lawsuit filed 50 other frivalous ones previously. If there was a steep fine for irrelevant lawsuits, the man might have stopped at 5.

I admit, I am not aware of the situation of the courts in India. The thing that irked me was that the court issued arrest warrants. Maybe the lower courts are useless, I don't know. I just heard that the courts are the one instituition that are known for their honesty. That's the reason that I was shocked: not the burning effigies, but the fact that the court listened to the idiots and issued an arrest warrent.

...even I felt...

I was reading Kimberly Crenshaw's Mapping the Margins where she talks about the intersectionality between racism and feminism, and I'm sure there's probably some angle out there relating to this.

How is it about anything but racism and feminism?

Actually racism and misogyny. Feminism is the general term for "empowerment of women" as I understand it. However, it sounds pretty interesting that racism and misogyny would intersect in some ways. I will have to look up that article/book.

No, I don't think they were going 'topless' as you might think... just not wearing blouses under their sarees

According to many family members who wanted to educate me on the history of the state of Kerala (I'm 1/2 Andhra so didn't know much) women in "the old days" (meaning quite a long time ago) did not wear any kind of clothing on the top at home and would only drape the top when going out. The typical clothing around the house was and is the set mundu, kind of a half sari with a separate top and bottom, and at that time the top was often not worn. There was also another way to wrap it, under the arms instead of over the shoulder, which is often used in dance performances. Kerala sari or regular sari was worn when going out but the topless thing actually ended up in women often having a sort of "surname" meaning: person who does not go out of the house. This is what I was told about historical times there anyway.

Bytewords,

do you have any idea about the profile of trafficking that goes on? do you have the slightest idea of how to counter it? i don't need the sound bites you will take from kristof's article---his article has a point, you don't. do you have any idea of the grinding poverty that makes otherwise normal people abet human trafficking in bihar? and can you even say if poverty is a dominant issue here? which will help better: empowering women only, or empowering community leaders? is lack of access to education relevant, or is it a spurious variable? does trafficking cut across community lines, or are some more vulnerable than others? how much is across state lines (easier to curb, indication of how organized the mafia is)? is it diffuse, or are there some gangs running most of the trafficking?

I request you do not throw ad hominem attacks on me and assume certain characteristics of me that you do not have the time to assume. Do I have any experience with sexual trafficking? No. Do I read materials other than Kristof's 'sound bytes.' Yes. I helped my friend with a research project with sexual trafficking of the Women from Nepal and was depressingly obsessed with this topic for the next two months. I find it appalling that sexual slavery still takes place in the country that I was born in. However, Let's not derail this thread about this issue.

Yes, I also know what poverty is. I spent 14 years in India, 3 of them in grindbreaking poverty. I also know something about exploitation and the 'patriachy' because I was sexually assaulted (though not raped) as a teenager. Are you happy now, Bytewords?

i will listen to you if you have anything half way intelligent to say. or if you even knew what questions to ask. the difference from kristof and you: he sees the problem, you think the people are the problem.

I have previously asked intelligent questions. Just scroll up. I just said that India has a problem and that this problem might not have a parallel in the west or it is milder in form. I never implicated the people of India as the problem.

I hope Bytewords, that it was just late night caffeine and the anonymity of the internet that caused this outburst. I am sure you are a really nice guy/girl in person.

Avi,

No worries. I really do not want to lecture you. I also want to give you the "benefit of doubt" of youth, and a long ways to go.

You really have a lot to learn about American history or politics, or for that matter, Indian too.

I agree what Indian courts have done is highly stupid.

However, what US Senate did to Ingrid Bergman, this Shilpa Shetty - Gere affair looks very pale. Here some excerpts:

The pregnancy caused a huge scandal in the United States. It even led to her being denounced on the floor of the U.S. Senate by Edwin C. Johnson, a Senator from Colorado, who referred to her as "a horrible example of womanhood and a powerful influence for evil." In addition, there was a floor vote, which resulted in her being made a persona non grata. The scandal forced Ingrid Bergman to exile herself to Italy, leaving her husband and daughter in the United States. Her husband, Dr. Petter Lindström, eventually sued for desertion and waged a custody battle for Pia Lindström.

One of the greatest actress of 20th century was declared persona non grata and left US because she played nun in lot of hollywood movies, and she in real life became pregnant out of wedlock, and that was unacceptable to American lawmakers.

I hardly leave comments these days on SM. I was just stuck (surprised) by your spirited defense (or something like that, I am not sure) for KKK (or similar Neo-Nazi) groups - they do not go to courts to get arrest warrants - they lynch for whistling at white women, kill, bomb churches and children, drag people behind the jeeps, and they had 6 million people as their formal members once.

Well, I am done on this thread.Sure, in last 2 comments, you have asked some intelligent questions.

More on Ingrid Bergman.

Concur with Fire Fly at #97. It was sexual harassment.

I admit, I am not aware of the situation of the courts in India. The thing that irked me was that the court issued arrest warrants. Maybe the lower courts are useless, I don't know. I just heard that the courts are the one instituition that are known for their honesty. That's the reason that I was shocked: not the burning effigies, but the fact that the court listened to the idiots and issued an arrest warrent.

Avi, bringing suit for public, willful, sexual harassment by any other name is not frivolous. Pity Shilpa Shetty couldn't do or say anything in her own defense. What worked on Big Brother doesn't work here. Did Richard Gere watch that show and decide she was fair game? You won't find him behaving that way in front of a crowd of truckers with, say, Sharon Stone-- regardless of what she does onscreen.

oh and yelling "Sex! Condom! Condom Nehi! Sex Nehi!" right after that assault was pretty damned rude, and vulgar too, in any culture-- if he can't speak the language he really ought to shut up.

I am sorry, but I don't get the feminist angle one bit. Isn't there an arrest warrant for Shilpa Shetty too? Or do you guys think she dealt a fierce blow to feminism and should be shackled up too?

a lot of postcolonial gender studies bullcrap talks about how india was perceived as a feminine country for a lot of its history. the brits preferred the hardy muslims and gurkhas to 'girly' hindus etc, and during the cold war the two strong, masculine white superpowers would try to 'woo' cute little india, with a lot of off the cuff comments about the apparent 'girly voices' of south asian males. really, there have been serious studies of this. is this a part of a wider trend?

In 1965, Virginia trial court Judge Leon Bazile sentenced to jail an interethnic couple who had married in Washington, D.C.,

So Kush Tandon, how about explaining to us how your pointing fingers at what America did decades ago exonerates what hindu fundamentalist jingos are doing in India today?

And while you are at it, do explain why Shiv Sena goons go bananas over a cocky white kisser and groper, or indians celebrating Valentine's Day, but not give a hoot about the rampant, open sexual exploitation of children in Mumbai, their stronghold? What do you think is worse?

Could their lack of concern and compassion for the child prostitutes of Mumbai have something to do with the fact that this abomination is sanctioned by brahminism?

I don't think it's as clearly sexual harrassment as some others do. Different legal definitions in different jurisdictions, of course. Pretty obvious that there was physical contact, hard to determine if it was of a sexual nature, and it also matters if Shilpa Shetty felt that this was unwelcome. She'd be the person to ask, rather than projecting whether we think it was uncomfortable or welcome or consensual. I don't think it's a case that would be best handled in court -- I wonder what conversations (if any) Gere and Shetty have had about the incident.

It seems to me that some courts in India have almost a universal jurisdiction on both people and issues. Its like the Indian courts have a 'genocide/crime against humanity' type of jurisdiction on all cases period. I am not sure what harm was caused to the lawyer in Jaipur by Richard Gere kissing Shilpa Shetty. In some weird way, any lawyer in a local court in India apparently also acts as the prosecutor who brings up cases where the harm is caused to the public sensibilities or whatever.

Here is an interesting analysis. The culprit seems to be the concept of 'Public Interest Litigation'. This is too cool:

(c) Citizen standing

The doctrine of citizen standing thus marks a significant expansion of the court’s rule, from protector of individual rights to guardian of the rule of law wherever threatened by official lawlessness.

I remember once hiring a driver for a trip while I was in the Dehli area. Big mistake, as I was a woman traveling alone. I remember we passed through an area where university students go to and I did see some couples sitting close together -- my driver, who I didn't hire as my tour guide, said this and it brought me giggles, "here people come to do sexy, sexy".

It's good to get perspectives about laws in the U.S. such as what Kush Tandon cited. I forget these things when I sit in judgement of India's social customs and how it affects me as a woman. And I'm sure Kush Tandon wasn't using it to exonerate the rampant sexism tolerated in Indian society.

On another note - I was once traveling in dharamsala (sp?) and really I was saddened how hard it was to be an Indian woman - just to do everyday things - like walking to the market alone. I was struck how all the Hindu and Muslim women I saw never looked men in the eye or even looked at me in the eye. However, in my experience, what a contrast the Tibetan population was. I was so pleased to actually meet people who would talk back to me and they were Tibetans. Tibetan women would always smile back at me. I happened to meet some Tibetans at a coffee shop/restaurant and we got to talking. They asked me "why are women treated so badly in Hindu and Muslim culture..." - They were talking about how reserved Hindu and Muslim women were, whereas their Tibetan women friends, as I stated earlier, seemed a lot more independent and self-confident. These were Tibetan boys who said this - about 18.

The contrast between how the Tibetan women carried themselves and how the rest of the Indian women carried themselves was so striking to me.

Any Tibetans out there to add to this...

As Jon Stewart said, the Gere kiss would be considered offensive in any culture. He was way out of line. Almost as bad as George Bush grabbing and massaging Angela Merkel's shoulders during some summit or the other. Of course this doesn't merit an arrest warrant, but I'm okay with letting him sweat for a bit.

I think she should sue him for harassment. He practically mauled her all over the stage!! Gere would have given Gulshan Grover a run for his money

#95 Avi,

It is not just Kristof, but his predecessors at NYT and every foreign correspondent in India has to write the Drainage Inspector's reports (as Gandhi called it) when they move to India. For one, there are a lot of drains to report about. That used to be the only kind of reports in the past, but now we have a few more positive reports on economics, outsourcing and bollywood. The Gere-Shetty incident is the occasional incident that happens every now and then in India, that the American media picks up with the tone of 'ha!ha!ha! look at these silly primitive Indians for insert the particular incident in caricature>. And India will provide plenty of these kind of incidents for someone who goes looking for it on a regular basis, not all of which get wide play in the American media.

These kinds of incidents of protests are orchestrated by some political party or organization to make some point to someone, with rent-a-crowd tactics.

it also matters if Shilpa Shetty felt that this was unwelcome. She'd be the person to ask, rather than projecting whether we think it was uncomfortable or welcome or consensual

The video clip is edited, so some interpretation of the body language becomes necessary - and, to me, it does seem like she definitely wasn't keen on getting bussed by him like that, not there anyway. Yes, she's not actively fighting him off, but still, even the hand-holding is going on longer than she wants, and the only reason for her to have fallen over backward was that she didn't particularly like the extent and intensity of the physical contact. It seems like he wanted a full-mouth version, and you can see he's whispering something - maybe he was asking her, who knows - but she took it on the cheek, he went for the other one, she pulled back, etc.

Suppose she really didn't like it - how was she to have really made it obvious - by smacking him across the face and/or kneeing him? In public, with cameras running, she with a career to push, and given all the power asymmetry in their public profiles, etc etc? I don't think so. And after it happened, would she really publicly admit that yes, she didn't want him all over her like that, and he shouldn't have done it? No, she'd say, it was no big deal really, just like she has.

I have to really give her credit for the way she recovered from it, and went on with her MC-ing. But he's clearly not quite done with her, when they're back down the stairs into the audience area, he's still holding her hand while she seems to be pulling it away!

This doesn't mean I support the third party lawsuits and all that, but let's also be clear what actually happened here and the multiple inappropriate messages it sends.

Sure, Chachaji, I think it's quite possible that she felt threatened and upset by it. On Big Brother everyone saw her reaction to demeaning, racist comments and I believe she commented on the show, the people, and how she felt, so I don't believe it's as unlikely as you say that she wouldn't comment on Gere publicly. Maybe she'd say "Oh Richard was just being goofy," or "He was out of line", who knows? There are ways to express her displeasure at Gere's actions, and I think Ennis started getting at it this in the post --- but I have yet to see anyone ask that question to her about whether the incident was upsetting. The sad truth is that victims have to come forward and explain themselves, often in difficult situations, and I'm bothered by the implication by the press and the judge that she was somehow at fault.

It was a strange scene. Gere looked like he was on something, the crowd cheering, etc.

Ennis, are you sure there's an arrest warrant for Shilpa Shetty too? Other news sources say the warrant is only for Gere.

From HT (link):

“The court has called Shilpa through a summons, while arrest warrants have been issued for Gere, as he might flee from India,” Poonam Chand Bhandari, the lawyer and petitioner in the matter, told HT on Thursday.

The responsibility to ensure compliance of warrants against Gere has been entrusted to Jaipur SP (HQ), while the summons for Shilpa is to be served through the metropolitan magistrate of Mumbai, Bhandari said.

I think Gere knew they'd be uproar. He was trying to in himself after being outed. But Shilpa squirmed like a trapped gerbil, probably because either Gere lacks the instincts necessary to pull of the difficult stolen kiss maneuver, or he's lost these instincts due to being around hollywood's casting couch mentality for so long, which give misogyny a bad name.

The Cindy Crawford marriage backfired on Gere as well, as Crawford's masculine mannerisms raised many an eyebrow. Jenna Jameson eventually outed Crawford in her seminal work, "How to Make Love to a Porn Star," which strangely happened to be ghost written by Neil Strauss, whose advice Gere is desperately in need off.

Speaking of game, Gere could take a lesson form those heroic 13 year old boys who seduce their hot teachers. Those kids are cunning like animals, as they sense their prey wants it. It is at this age that these instincts need to be cultivated and refined, before the feminist establishment tries to rob children of their inner noble savage by convincing them that they are rape victims.

Anyone trying to pull off an assumed close maneuver needs to know how to walk the thin line between force and consent. Gere, a card carrying member of the leftist-liberal hollywood cabal, has long since lost such instincts, if he ever had them.

So? Does that mean the backwardness is just a projection of western orientalism on the Indian subcontinent? Backwardness is present in India and it won't go away if the Western foreigners do not condemn it. Indian backwardness does exist, and this episode (and the Khushboo one) illustrates that women are blamed for any incident with sexual connotations

Avi,
I agree to a certain extent to what you say here, which is why I use the word "partially" to describe this as a projection of the western media's need for amusement, but in all fairness, do you think third-world countries, india in particular, get a fair saying in what is being portrayed here. there are beautiful things about india and the indian way of life that can never be tangibly demonstrated to someone living half the globe away, so all they know is our misery. i agree, in a lot of places misogyny is rampant and women are considered second class, but that's not all people and all places. i am from kerala and i can confidently tell you no one i know in kerala and around india care one bit about this.

to reiterate, the whole point of my previous post was that this a very,very small group of people involved in this specific case and the western media is trying to make it seem like the whole goddamn country is out for gere's and shetty's heads, which, im sure you can agree with me on this at least, is far from the truth.

if you want to point out that a lot of indian women have miserable lives in india, i really don't think this is the case in point because this is a small group of people making a huge deal out of nothing and the fact that they are getting so much attention from the western media is embarassing for the rest of us who made to look like idiots. there are a 100 million posts on this site with pretty much the same point of view as you and i have on the status of indian women.

Public displays of affection between men and women are forbidden in Islam - Indians have never recovered from their colonisation by the Muslim hordes!

I'm pleased about the direction this discussion is taking, and think the only "backward" part of the reaction/response is blaming the victim. chachaji and fsowallah, I don't see that there was any alternative to a third party bringing suit when SS was not really in a position to do anything much about it. Salauddeen, you may be right, and after all we're all writingspeakingthinking in English, but I'm with Jon Stewart on this. The Klimt painting depicts some tenderness, unlike the Gere Tango Manqué Manoever, which is plain abusive and clumsy.

As someone who watches NDTV and Star News, the two 24X7 news channels that broadcast live from India without any repackaging for the US, I have come to understand one simple truth about today's Indian media. When there is an explosion of channels and other media, news will become magnified and redundant just to feed the media monster. The US experienced it decades ago. India is experiencing it now.

There is nothing wrong with that, but it is hard to take news seriously when every trivia is sliced and diced on Indian TV as though it was a major social issue. The other day Barkha Dutt, who is one of the best TV journalists on Indian TV, was running a panel discussion on something so inconsequential that I don't even remember anymore what the topic was. Can a country of 1.2 billion people be so devoid of important issues that a journalist of Miss Dutt's caliber must resort to sensationalism for the sake of the almighty ratings? I don't remember what I watched, but I watched. So the media scored another victory.

Anybody seen the movie NETWORK from the 80's? Peter Finch, William Holden, Faye Dunaway. It's a very smart satire on the media. There is a Bollywood equivalent of it, though very different in approach - "Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani," with Shah Rukh.

I am not sure if I threadjacked here or contributed to the topic. Sorry, Ennis.

I remember once hiring a driver for a trip while I was in the Dehli area. Big mistake, as I was a woman traveling alone. I remember we passed through an area where university students go to and I did see some couples sitting close together -- my driver, who I didn't hire as my tour guide, said this and it brought me giggles, "here people come to do sexy, sexy".

It's good to get perspectives about laws in the U.S. such as what Kush Tandon cited. I forget these things when I sit in judgement of India's social customs and how it affects me as a woman. And I'm sure Kush Tandon wasn't using it to exonerate the rampant sexism tolerated in Indian society.

On another note - I was once traveling in dharamsala (sp?) and really I was saddened how hard it was to be an Indian woman - just to do everyday things - like walking to the market alone. I was struck how all the Hindu and Muslim women I saw never looked men in the eye or even looked at me in the eye. However, in my experience, what a contrast the Tibetan population was. I was so pleased to actually meet people who would talk back to me and they were Tibetans. Tibetan women would always smile back at me. I happened to meet some Tibetans at a coffee shop/restaurant and we got to talking. They asked me "why are women treated so badly in Hindu and Muslim culture..." - They were talking about how reserved Hindu and Muslim women were, whereas their Tibetan women friends, as I stated earlier, seemed a lot more independent and self-confident. These were Tibetan boys who said this - about 18.

The contrast between how the Tibetan women carried themselves and how the rest of the Indian women carried themselves was so striking to me.

Any Tibetans out there to add to this...

And that hardship that Indian women face on a daily basis is precisely why Gere should not done what he has done.

I saw the video, and, as a feminist, as well as a woman who has struggled for over a decade in India with unwanted sexual advances (some from men around Gere's age), I WAS OFFENDED.

Like I said elsewhere, If Gere and Shetty were a couple, no problem. But the fact that he is in a relationship with another woman, and her most likely with another man, what the hell was all that kissing about and what message does that give to Indian men - especially older uncles with grey hair - just like Gere??? Shetty is almost half his age for God's sake! How many times have women, both Indian and non, already been sexually put upon by old grey uncles in the streets of India? Too many damn times! Gere seriously needed to educate himself on women's issues in India. Perhaps then he would not have made such a fool of himself on TV.

These were people doing some event or benefit for AIDS awareness, a serious issue. Gere's behaviour trivialized that and trivialized Shetty as a serious spokesperson on the issue. Cannot a woman be taken seriously for once without having some old uncle trying to hug and kiss up on her? Are we still living in a pre-feminist era?

I love it when I see couples in India, young and old alike, married or non, displaying their affection in public. Hand-holding, hugging and some kissing is healthy for people to see - it's beautiful and joyful --- between couples, where it is expected and desired. Shetty obviously did not expect or desire Gere's behaviour (unless it was pre-planned for publicity, in which case we are all pawns in the game).

And Shetty's "this is his culture, not our's" is pure bukwas. Bull-caca! It is NOT American culture to be sexually harrassed. I never get that here.

Anyway, as a woman his behaviour offended my feminist sensibilities.

And as a victim of countless sexual harrassment offenses in India --- I feel his behaviour sent out the opposite of the message we women are trying to send to the Lalu's, Montu's, Chintu's, Munnu's and fat, grey Uncles of India who will see this TV image and think their behaviour with us is perfectly normal and acceptable internationally because some "angrez akhtar" or "hero" did it.

I think we should all be glad at Richard Gere's show of affection. I am white and growing up all the girls in my neighborhood had huuuge crushes on him.

Yeah but now he is an old uncleji and Shetty is still a young woman -- big difference. I'm white and I was offended!

Funny, when my American Desi girlfriend here saw the video she was like, "ooooooooooh the women in India probably loved the romance of it all. Now they can tell their husbands 'that's what I want from you' "

Whatever -- Gere and Shetty are not a couple. If it were Amitabh and Jaya or John and Bipasha or Rai and Bacchan, no problem. But he was a married (or at least committed) old grey man forcing himself upon a young woman who probably is also committed elsewhere. Not cool at all, tongue or not.

Only in India would some outdated statute be used to target couples showing affection in public, even if it was for the fun of it. I am 30 years old and have traveled to a few places in this world and can't think of any other "democratic" country where a kiss in public is illegal and a punishable offense.

If you want to catch up with the Modern Age, I would suggest that you have a "national kiss in public day" and show the damn "legal establishment" to see how many people they can actually prosecute for this crap. How do you like them apples.

Also, I am sick and tired of Bollywood and the legal crap that goes with kissing in bollywood films.

One more thing I'd like to add;

I feel that Shetty downplayed it to show solidarity in the international film industry. She's an actress with international aspirations. I'm sure she'd love to do a Hollywood film, and to critique Gere's actions might be a harmful move for her career.

I would have liked to see her address the issue from the perspective of international sexual harrassment laws and women's rights. That might have put both Gere and India in their places!

chachaji and fsowallah, I don't see that there was any alternative to a third party bringing suit when SS was not really in a position to do anything much about it.

Except that this particular lawsuit appears to have named her as a defendant, too. They are both supposed to be at fault. And while AMFD said her smiling about it later makes her less credible if she filed suit, she could still try, depending on her own calculations of publicity, winnability, etc if she wants to.

If it were Amitabh and Jaya or John and Bipasha or Rai and Bacchan, no problem.

I don't know if we want to restrict consent or implied consent - to PDAs - only to married or engaged couples - the issue is whether he forced himself on her, not whether they are married or are a couple. But it's more interesting to run counterfactuals and hypotheticals - to see the outrage then. Amrita already ran one with Gere and Sharon Stone - we know he wouldn't have done it, she wouldn't have let him, and if it had happened anyway, he'd have hell to pay. So if that's true, then why is it different with a different SS?

Gah!! Some indian people are just so backward regarding this "obscene" incident.You know it's true!!!I can't believe it is getting so much press.This actually reminds me of the time, my boyfriend and I were sitting in a park in Bangalore, enjoying the surroundings in a seemingly secluded area, when he nonchalantly kissed me on the cheek. A local man appeared soon after and admonished us for such behaviour. He wondered why we were kissing near a playground where the children could have seen.(lol!!) I swear we must have been doing horizontal tango in his eyes.

Remember kids: In India, Kissing=Sex=Pleasure=Very very bad

This in my opinion is India's number one social problem; it's non-comfort with mutual desire and the joyous display thereof.

If more Indian couples, married and non, showed more PDAs and actually stood up for that instead of paying off cops with 100 rupees and cowering sheepishly in front of elders, maybe there would be less sexual harrassment of women on the streets? It appears to be a country which represses healthy expressions of mutual desire and it comes out in the form of non-mutual harrassment.

Indian kids need to grow up seeing their moms and dads sitting side by side on the couch holding hands while the family watches TV. They need to see women and men eating together instead of seperately (men first), as mentioned elsewhere. They need to see their dads showing appreciation and affections to their moms.

I think if Indians grew up seeing healthy forms of love and affection expressed between the sexes, that they would be much more comfortable with PDAs, the concept of mutual and concentual desire, etc, and less repressed and frustrated in matters sexual, which eventually come out in perverted ways.

For alot of conservative, traditional people, even sex between husband and wife is almost taboo! I have heard even it is deemed shameful for a wife to express desire to her husband or instruct him in pleasing her.

Shilpa could've taken the oppurtunity to address these issues and rally the cause of Indian women.

This in my opinion is India's number one social problem

The problem you describe is very real, but when we raise it to 'number one social problem', let's remember that it is largely an urban middle class problem. The problem does not exist, in the particular form you frame it - among very rich or very poor people - or in the rural areas. There are other related problems - misogyny, male privilege, etc - so it's by no means an ideal situation, but the particular repression of sexuality - in this form - is an urban middle class phenomenon. And there are regional variations - I don't think Kerala and Punjab are the same in this regard.

The scary thing is that as the 'development' bandwagon goes into the rural areas, and tribals and other indigenous peoples are brought in to its ambit, and develop middle class ambitions, they too might buy into repression of sexuality, subordination of women, etc.

This in my opinion is India's number one social problem; it's non-comfort with mutual desire and the joyous display thereof.

PG,

As usual you have outdone yourself with your posts. So this is India's number one social problem eh? Not rampant casteism in the villages, not absymally low levels of literacy, not large rural unemployment and not the emerging urban-rural divide. Tres Interessant.

For someone who claims "to have spent 10 years in India and has been mercilessly pawed by grey-haired older gentlemen and who never once misses an occasion to point out this fact, maybe you could put a little more thought before you gurgitate the first thing that pops into your head onto this board.

I don't know if we want to restrict consent or implied consent - to PDAs - only to married or engaged couples - the issue is whether he forced himself on her, not whether they are married or are a couple.

Your right, that's the real issue.

Until I read the comments on this thread I never would have considered what Gere did sexual harrassment - I'm still not sure if I do.

I am so used to seeing such things on American TV. Why is it people are saying he wouldn't have done it if it was Sharon Stone? As others have pointed out in U.S. awards show this stuff happens all the time - Adrien Brody and Halle Berry. PG would you consider that instance (if you happened to see it?) sexual harrassment in America's context?

Until I read the comments on this thread I never would have considered what Gere did sexual harrassment - I'm still not sure if I do.

It's the moral equivelent of a wedgie. I mean, technically a wedgie is a form of physical assault, but if you view it in context, it's clearly meant to be taken lightly and with a sense of humor.

although, upon further reflection, the wedgie was used as a form of social control...a method upon which the powerful (popular, athletic males) maintained hegemony over the powerless (studious, nerdy males). The fact that it was a joke was really what mede it so effective, as it allowed for plausible denial and thus was rarely punished by authorities.

o god, has fannon been right this whole time.

Thanks for the comparison, but maybe the comparison isn't really needed b/c like a wedgie, a kiss by itself can be taken as either sexual assault or a joke or something else, depending on context.

I think if Indians grew up seeing healthy forms of love and affection expressed between the sexes, that they would be much more comfortable with PDAs, the concept of mutual and concentual desire, etc, and less repressed and frustrated in matters sexual, which eventually come out in perverted ways.

I completely agree!! Human beings naturally want to show affection toward each other and repressing that desire, comes out in different forms such as the interesting phenomenon of seemingly heterosexual men holding hands and carrying on the way a boy/girl couple would. Why is affection in public between two men accepted and an opposite sex couple not?

Any whoo, I think I am going off subject, but I just like to say that if Shilpa was offended by the behaviour of Richard, it is between them to deal with and not in the court system of india. That said, if an american movie star like George Clooney wants to make out with an Indian woman on national tv, I will gladly volunteer. (lol!!)

The problem you describe is very real, but when we raise it to 'number one social problem', let's remember that it is largely an urban middle class problem. The problem does not exist, in the particular form you frame it - among very rich or very poor people - or in the rural areas. There are other related problems - misogyny, male privilege, etc - so it's by no means an ideal situation, but the particular repression of sexuality - in this form - is an urban middle class phenomenon. And there are regional variations - I don't think Kerala and Punjab are the same in this regard.

The scary thing is that as the 'development' bandwagon goes into the rural areas, and tribals and other indigenous peoples are brought in to its ambit, and develop middle class ambitions, they too might buy into repression of sexuality, subordination of women, etc.

I disagree. I resided in a small town, much smaller than Agra, even Aligarh. Small, traditional, religious holy site -- mostly rural until recently, even now still considered "rural". The people there, even though the more "well off" ones, would not be considered "middle class" by Indian urban center standards. Sexual harrassment there was as common as public urination (shows you how common it was!). Basically, as common as aloo paranthas for breakfast in the morning and aloo subzi for dinner in the night.

Contrary to what you said, I have experienced less sexual harrassment in India's urban centers. My friends (Indian women and others)
report the same.

PG,

As usual you have outdone yourself with your posts. So this is India's number one social problem eh? Not rampant casteism in the villages, not absymally low levels of literacy, not large rural unemployment and not the emerging urban-rural divide. Tres Interessant.

For someone who claims "to have spent 10 years in India and has been mercilessly pawed by grey-haired older gentlemen and who never once misses an occasion to point out this fact, maybe you could put a little more thought before you gurgitate the first thing that pops into your head onto this board.

You're a man. You have NO idea what it's like to be a woman in India. No idea. I stand behind my words "one hundred and ten percent!"

Human beings naturally want to show affection toward each other and repressing that desire, comes out in different forms such as the interesting phenomenon of seemingly heterosexual men holding hands and carrying on the way a boy/girl couple would. Why is affection in public between two men accepted and an opposite sex couple not?

In some of those cases they are temporarily homosexual, a type of socially forced homosexuality until they get married. There is a scientific word for that - when genders turn inward because of lack of oppurtunity with the opposite -- can't remember. But it is common in societies that employ segregation of the sexes. People from such societies will verify that for you. After marriage (to the opposite) the same gender lovin declines or stops completely.

I have seen mothers and sons carry on in such ways that would be considered "borderline" to most on this website -- again, in the same type of segregated society.

In some of those cases they are temporarily homosexual, a type of socially forced homosexuality until they get married. There is a scientific word for that - when genders turn inward because of lack of oppurtunity with the opposite.

I don't want to threadjack here, but I have to take a quick side-trip to queer-theory-land in response to this (yes, it's where I'm happiest :).

Human sexual behavior is incredibly varied, and our categories of classifying it incredibly recent, historically speaking (the medical/psychiatric definitions of homosexual and heterosexual, and the social identities of gay, lesbian, etc. have been around for less than a hundred years). These categories also do not hold true in different places around the world. The U.S., for example, insists on labeling a same-sex PDA like hand-holding as necessarily linked to same-sex sexual activities. That same PDA does not mean the same thing in other cultures, obviously. The meaning we give to certain acts changes across places and times.

I guess what I'm saying is don't assume. I doubt that any same-sex-lovin' activity happening between men (or women) anywhere in the world is "socially forced." I understand that there are social environments that are more conducive to same-sex activity (prisons, boarding schools, etc), but no one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying, "Hold hands, you two! Okay, now when you're alone, get biz-zay!"

I guess what I'm saying is be suspicious of any "scientific word" that seeks to explain human sexual behavior, especially one that simplistically labels same-sex activity as some kind of "inverted gender" bullshit brought about by "lack of opportunity with the opposite," as if opposite-sex sexual activity is the baseline from which all else is measured and people are incapable of desiring certain sex acts all on their own. We can't be put in boxes, people! We're too damn freaky.

Having said that, the Gere ass-grab/cheek-lick was not cool. Physical touching of any kind, freaky or un-, should be consensual, and this seemed more like an unpleasant surprise that Shilpa couldn't get out of without shoving his ass off the podium. And that wouldn't have been lady-like, right? I think that women often feel they can't react as they'd like to inappropriate touching, since the response would be akin to the wedgie defense (it's just a joke! it's no big deal! don't be so uptight! etc.).

Speaking of power dynamics and physical inappropriateness, someone upthread mentioned the inappropriate Bush/Merkel massage from a while back. Did anyone else catch the Reid/Pelosi Vulcan shoulder rub at the Democratic press conference last week? The Daily Show had a funny about it. She's not your 9-year-old niece giving a good-citizenship speech, Reid, she's the Speaker of the motherf**king house! Jeez. Insecure maroon.

I guess what I'm saying is don't assume. I doubt that any same-sex-lovin' activity happening between men (or women) anywhere in the world is "socially forced." I understand that there are social environments that are more conducive to same-sex activity (prisons, boarding schools, etc), but no one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying, "Hold hands, you two! Okay, now when you're alone, get biz-zay!"

This does not apply to prisons. Most "homosexual" activity in prisons are due to rape or coerced sex. Human Rights Watch have investigated this.

Avi, you're absolutely right. "Prisons" was a bad example. Dammit! I was specifically trying to avoid issues around non-consensual activity, and I went and put my foot in it anyway.

So yeah, in arguing against the phrase "socially forced" (as opposed to "individually forced"), my brain had a slight aneurism and I put 'prisons' down as an example of a sex-segregated environment. Disregard, Mutineers! Not that there isn't some consensual same-sex activity happening in prisons, but, as Avi said, forced sex in prisons is rampant, and is horribly underreported and underrecognized. It is a human rights issue, and has no place in my argument about hand-holding men getting it on in India or elsewhere.

I don't want to threadjack here, but I have to take a quick side-trip to queer-theory-land in response to this (yes, it's where I'm happiest :).

Human sexual behavior is incredibly varied, and our categories of classifying it incredibly recent, historically speaking (the medical/psychiatric definitions of homosexual and heterosexual, and the social identities of gay, lesbian, etc. have been around for less than a hundred years). These categories also do not hold true in different places around the world. The U.S., for example, insists on labeling a same-sex PDA like hand-holding as necessarily linked to same-sex sexual activities. That same PDA does not mean the same thing in other cultures, obviously. The meaning we give to certain acts changes across places and times.

I guess what I'm saying is don't assume. I doubt that any same-sex-lovin' activity happening between men (or women) anywhere in the world is "socially forced." I understand that there are social environments that are more conducive to same-sex activity (prisons, boarding schools, etc), but no one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying, "Hold hands, you two! Okay, now when you're alone, get biz-zay!"

I guess what I'm saying is be suspicious of any "scientific word" that seeks to explain human sexual behavior, especially one that simplistically labels same-sex activity as some kind of "inverted gender" bullshit brought about by "lack of opportunity with the opposite," as if opposite-sex sexual activity is the baseline from which all else is measured and people are incapable of desiring certain sex acts all on their own. We can't be put in boxes, people! We're too damn freaky.

Having said that, the Gere ass-grab/cheek-lick was not cool. Physical touching of any kind, freaky or un-, should be consensual, and this seemed more like an unpleasant surprise that Shilpa couldn't get out of without shoving his ass off the podium. And that wouldn't have been lady-like, right? I think that women often feel they can't react as they'd like to inappropriate touching, since the response would be akin to the wedgie defense (it's just a joke! it's no big deal! don't be so uptight! etc.).

Speaking of power dynamics and physical inappropriateness, someone upthread mentioned the inappropriate Bush/Merkel massage from a while back. Did anyone else catch the Reid/Pelosi Vulcan shoulder rub at the Democratic press conference last week? The Daily Show had a funny about it. She's not your 9-year-old niece giving a good-citizenship speech, Reid, she's the Speaker of the motherf**king house! Jeez. Insecure maroon.

Lizzie, some of those men engage in temporary homosexual activities due to the fact that they can't have gfs. Some of those men are genuinely gay. I'm making a distinction. And it's not the hand-holding I'm talking about. That is just part of the culture. I'm talking about other forms of affection between these men.

Uh.

Lizzie, some of those men engage in temporary homosexual activities due to the fact that they can't have gfs

That's kind of an odd way to describe a rather more turbulent set of emotional and physical circumstances. I mean, I am fairly certain that most heterosexual men don't engage in homosexual activities "because they can't have a girlfriend." If that were the case, quite a few frustrated souls on Shaadi.com would be hanging out in Dupont Circle, looking for love in all the dark places.

To clarify: rape is generally a power move that involves sex, not sex that lacks romance.

Of course there is a distinction between having a gay identity and engaging in same-sex activity during temporary periods of one's life. What gets me ruffled is the "scientific" push to explain the wonder that is human sexuality and human desire in simplistic, A = B terms, when it is often, as Salil said, "a more turbulent set of emotional and physical circumstances."