gotta love it--this is from the same country that gave us a movie named "Hitler" (Mohan Lal in all his glory)--what do you expect? Some things never change--I love it!

It could mean take one bullshit daily, but I think it's trying to sell a newspaper in times when rubbished (trashed in American) has been downgraded to mean nothing more than shelved or otherwise disposed of. Still, nothing beats a shikara called Dancing Girl With Full Spring Seats.

Good Night.

My father, who used bullshit in front of us, occasionally, when we were kids always joked it was OK because bullshit is used to make gobar gas.

When did "Bullshit" become a cuss word? It does not seem to have any sexual connotation! I might have it wrong, it was an oft heard, routinely used term used even by my school teachers. Looks like somethings have definitely been lost in translation. Backwas..oye :D!

for reasons i will never fully understand my entire family in india [everyone on both sides of my family lives there except for my dad, mom, and brother], my uncles, aunts, and cousins have no problem saying bullshit, shit, f*&k, crap, asshole, etc. in front of my nani and dadi.

could someone explain how its better to use a swear word in front of my english speaking grandmothers than to hold my boyfriend's hand in front of them?

Perhaps the American born "South Asians" raised in a typical 3Bdroom 2 bath suburb home by a Camry / Accord driving parents do not realise that roads of India are full of cows / bulls and thus "bullshit"? And that is what ad is referring to?

Looks like our AB South Asians have not walked on the roads of India during early year summer vacation trip to "motherland" and got their chappal / shoe immersed in a piping hot cow dung / bull shit?

My relatives who are quite "G rated" use the term as a clinical description of, well, bullshit. It's not considered a bad word in India, many of us even water it down to apply to courtyard floors etc. The PDA restrictions in India are stupid but you probably want to look for something else to highlight it

Advertising professionals in Indian cities tend to be young, urban, and rebellious (or why would they choose advertising over engineering?). Unless the product in question is specifically geared towards an older age-group, it is not uncommon to come across MTV-ish ads.

What's with the gross generalization? Some nuts decided to burn effigies and suddenly everyone in India is an effigy-burning maniac? Come on. Every country has its share of loonies (judges included, look up Scalia) a good number of whom are employed as editors in MSM. The loonies feed of each other, creating and reporting news. I don't think a rational person should look at this as a representation of society as a whole. I think it is unfair to generalize Indians as prudes.

I think it is unfair to generalize Indians as prudes.

I think it's a fair enough generalization. What's unfair is to say that the PDA issue and this billboard are at logical odds with each other (no offence, Anna). Things are changing way too rapidly in India... the generation gaps are so large, we may as well be ABDs. In other words, the culture -- in the big cities, at least -- is slightly unstable and confused at the moment.

I think it's a fair enough generalization. What's unfair is to say that the PDA issue and this billboard are at logical odds with each other (no offence, Anna). Things are changing way too rapidly in India... the generation gaps are so large, we may as well be ABDs. In other words, the culture -- in the big cities, at least -- is slightly unstable and confused at the moment.

Things are changing way too rapidly in India... the generation gaps are so large, we may as well be ABDs. In other words, the culture -- in the big cities, at least -- is slightly unstable and confused at the moment.

Nice points. However, do you think it fair to paint all sections of Indian society with the same brush? I am sorry if I am broadening the question here, but I just came off reading a post on another blog about the whole Shilpa Shetty-Richard Gere thing and was a little annoyed with the coverage by MSM. One look at all the decadence that Indian cinema markets, should be some indication that a significant part of society isn't made of prudes. Either that or we are bunch of hypocrites. I don't think that's the case though. Parents in general have always been uncomfortable broaching the subject of sex, but I doubt most of them would be surprised if they found us patronising the above mentioned "language" or behavior.

My opinion may be colored by my background. I traveled throughout my childhood and have seen different sides of the country. I have seen my share of prudes but I have found people in general are pretty open-minded. I don't think we should buy the picture that MSM throws at us.

Again, my point is this: I disagree with the characterization of the country as a whole as an entity that "frowns upon public displays of affection". There are sections that would and there are sections that don't. And there are sections who don't give a $%#@. All I am saying is we need to acknowledge that. :)

#11: Yeah, I remember being scandalized by the Durex ads on TV at 5 pm when I was 10. Worse when my 4-year old brother asked me what condoms were.

#12: No, I'm not speaking for all of Indian society... this is only from my experience. I also may have a slightly different view of the cussing issue, because my parents are relatively more tolerant to talking about sex than to swearing, which they absolutely prohibit.

Again, my point is this: I disagree with the characterization of the country as a whole as an entity that "frowns upon public displays of affection". There are sections that would and there are sections that don't.

Yes, but I would think that overwhelmingly, the former are the older generations, and the latter the young. I agree with you that the whole country can't be assigned a single attribute -- however, I think that if we had this discussion 30 years ago, the generalization would be pretty valid.

I might have it wrong, it was an oft heard, routinely used term used even by my school teachers.

Same here. One even explained in detail that bullshit isn't a curse word. lol

From observation (or from partaking in conversations) in India, I believe 'bullshit' is not considered a cuss-word. It is commonly used by urban, comfortable-with-english janta even in quite polite conversation without extra affectation or drama. This was recently reinforced on me when a co-worker who's visiting our workplace from the India office used the word completely unaware that in the US its not preferred in formal work situations. I think the other desensitizing factor is that bullshit is a physical object quite commonly evident in the desi environment and its usage seems intended to highlight the animal excretion equivalence to the object in question.

In the same vein, 'shit' is another term that seems more serious/potent in the US in formal situations than in India. People who otherwise are being careful not to utter other umbrages, offer up 'shit' like its regular exclamation. In contrast, in the US people go for bite-my-tongue 'shoot' instead under etiquette-worthy circumstances.

"Again, my point is this: I disagree with the characterization of the country as a whole as an entity that "frowns upon public displays of affection". There are sections that would and there are sections that don't. And there are sections who don't give a $%#@. All I am saying is we need to acknowledge that. :) "

Couldn't agree more with this. I for one find various SM bloggers' attitudes towards India more simplifying and patronizing than those of most non-South Asians I have come across. Wasn't it here that Amardeep suggested that India should take the informed assistance of ABDs when it comes to choosing what movies to nominate for the Oscar foreign movie award?

I still have tears streaming down my face. When my American-born kids go to India they love saying that word and at my raised eyebrows they go, but Ammmaaa, Granpa said that and there TRULY is a bull and when he goes kakaa it is called...(drumroll please) BULLSHEET(that is how they pronounce it get away from the proverbial mouth washing I would have given them in Penn State)! I shall most certainly show them this post today.

I ddin't realise BS was a curse word till I moved to USA. Everyone I knew used it generously. My family was more tolerant to the words BS or S*** than to F*** (which, I think, is because the f-word has an equivalent cuss word in almost all regional languages and is banned at home).

In the same vein, 'shit' is another term that seems more serious/potent in the US in formal situations than in India.

Well, that's the point. The "shit" part of "bullshit" is a bona-fide profanity with a long history as such in the English language. Americans, or so-called ABCDs, don't object to "bullshit" because of their dainty sensibilities regarding cowdung (I mean, come on people). It's just the particular nature of the specific word "shit." And lest anyone then start speculating on the estrangement of Americans from their poop and how that is a telling symptom of their lack of understanding of the reality of life for most of the world today, I hasten to add that we have plenty of other scatalogical terms which are not classed as obscenities.

is it just the physical deterrence factor, seemingly not present in the US, which kept browns fearful of being connected to 'vulgarity'?

To this day, if one of those words (with the notable exception of 'bloody' and 'bugger' although those two words depict hemorraghing and pederasty which seem to be just as objectionable as anything else if not more so) comes out of a family member's mouth in front of the matriarch, there will be a crisp, vinegary ADDI soon to follow.

though i do find it highly entertaining to hear "Put it in his bloody bugger goddamn Vettori teeth, Malinga."

have we simply been left with the least choice of pickings from the colonial grab bag of cuss words? Would that paucity of verbal filth not inspire those emigrating to this country to acquire every silly cuss word they found? And then deny that joy to the people back home?

In the same vein, 'shit' is another term that seems more serious/potent in the US in formal situations than in India. People who otherwise are being careful not to utter other umbrages, offer up 'shit' like its regular exclamation. In contrast, in the US people go for bite-my-tongue 'shoot' instead under etiquette-worthy circumstances.

there are are industries in the US which seem 'professional' but which foster all kinds of unprofessional behavior. I usually drop the f bomb about 10-20 times at work on a good day and much more on a bad one. and yes, I do work in a real office, that issues real GAAP statements and has real worries about complying with sarbanes-oxley (if ye are skeptical).

In my experience it is okay to use english cuss words in India. It's the Indian ones that are taboo. Perhaps the impact of the english ones doesn't fully sink in. Sort of like how I noticed one of the bloggers here recently use the word chutiya. I found that a bit surprising because from the way they otherwise write I doubt they'd use the same word in english.

All this talk about bullshit being acceptable in India (while news to me), reminds me of an Icelandic TA I had who used the word routinely and frequently in class, to the amusement and sometime discomfort of the students. No idea if has to do with Icelandic culture...

In my experience it is okay to use english cuss words in India. It's the Indian ones that are taboo. Perhaps the impact of the english ones doesn't fully sink in. Sort of like how I noticed one of the bloggers here recently use the word chutiya. I found that a bit surprising because from the way they otherwise write I doubt they'd use the same word in english.

Good point :)

I'm with Divya on this one. It's as if curse words in English have less impact as those in Hindi. You can see this, for instance, in the censoring of films - some films have been explicitly silent-bleeped or otherwise edited for desi explitives, but shit, asshole and sometimes fuck are never out. This is even more true in Tamil films - comparing my exposure to films of the two languages, I still know more curse words in Hindi than in Tamil, which I've been speaking since a child! On the other hand, it could be that film makers self-censor by avoiding desi expletives, but even that would show a differential treatment of cursing in the two languages.

Is it Bull Shit and hence the abbreviation BS. It's spelt as Bullshit (one-word) in the ad and this just doesn't seem right.

Isn't there a kiddies' card game called Bullshit in the States? Rather like Balderdash and Bluff?

It's true that earthier English words don't seem to draw the same attention in desh as our favourite chod-suffixed ones. Perhaps it's because of the higher status of English and assumption that no mild swear word in English could possibly be that bad. This reminds me too of Shilpa Shetty's silly remark about being shocked at her potty-mouthed housemates on Big Brother because she thought of England as the country of the queen, high tea and Shakespeare, even though Shakespeare could be pretty earthy himself. But her association of Things English with Classiness was interesting.

...to the amusement and sometime discomfort of the students.

And Indians are considered uptight? :)

Perhaps it's because of the higher status of English and assumption that no mild swear word in English could possibly be that bad.

SP, my mom theorizes that it's considered "cool" and "Westernized" (i.e. "high-class") to use English swear words.

It is quite a sight to see Sunny Deol roar "You bastard" or "Haramzade". Telugu audiences haven't been too hostile to the odd milder expletive in popular culture in recent times, IMO. Depends on the context. In any case, the usual protests against obscenity etc are usually orchestrated by some two bit political outfit (as a few have pointed out).

I asked about whether this billboard signals a decay in culture or if to those of you who know better, it's no big deal at all. That's it. I promise I wasn't assuming anything, in fact, I even asked if the tipster's comment was inaccurately comparing two different things, though perhaps I should have used "apples and "oranges" instead of attempting to be cute with the jack fruit. I asked all of you because I honestly did not know and all of you do. To those of you who enlightened me without insulting me or a few hundred-thousand other ABDs who had no choice about the fact that they were born here 30-years ago, thank you.

Look, I knew that my family in India said "bullshit", but

a) it was often, "bloody bullshit!" which to me sounded like cursing. And the men who said this daily would NOT have written it down or used it in formal conversation or. To those of you who point out that one literally encounters fecal matter from bulls in India, thus a descriptive term for it is accurate, not vulgar, I offer this as an explanation of where I'm coming from-- I am well aware that dung is used for many things, but to the best of my knowledge, it's not bloody stool that is so ubiquitous or useful. Hence my confusion.

b) my family loves swearing. Which is why when I read certain comments under my posts on this site, I often find myself muttering "Po oombe, maire". Everyone I've ever met is absolutely horrified by my command of such language, and I was always told (by my livid Mother) that the way my Dad and his brothers (and me!) dropped such words in to casual conversation was utterly unacceptable. So, if my family often used the word "bullshit"...I just naively thought that word might be, too. My mother does not say "bullshit". Ever.

Perhaps the American born "South Asians" raised in a typical 3Bdroom 2 bath suburb home by a Camry / Accord driving parents

Hmmm, I wonder whom this sarcasm is aimed at...ah yes, South Asian ME, especially since I was naive enough to write this post. Well then. Allow ABC me to respond.

(and this one is for you, Daddy.) Pardon my bitchiness (though we could explain my being princess-y as a tragically direct effect of my inclusion in the oppressive South Asian patriarchal system), but you mean "four bedroom, 3 bath suburb home by Merrycedes driving parents". The thought of owning a Camry or Accord would have sent my autophile father, who never purchased a Japanese car, to an even earlier demise, so let's be accurate when we stereotype. Lest Daddy start moving in his current grave, I offer the aforetyped obnoxious correction.

Hey, I'm not the one who "went" there. :p

Looks like our AB South Asians have not walked on the roads of India during early year summer vacation trip to "motherland" and got their chappal / shoe immersed in a piping hot cow dung / bull shit?

You are absolutely correct. I didn't walk anywhere. My father was interested in immersing us in many things once we were finally back in Kerala; cow excrement (especially of the steaming variety) was NOT one of them. Beyond all that, why the hell would anyone need to? Or is watching where you are going a South Asian activity?

Couldn't agree more with this. I for one find various SM bloggers' attitudes towards India more simplifying and patronizing than those of most non-South Asians I have come across.

Wow, talk about generalizing.

Wasn't it here that Amardeep suggested that India should take the informed assistance of ABDs when it comes to choosing what movies to nominate for the Oscar foreign movie award?

No joke-- I have no idea what you are referring to, so please don't hold it against me. We are all individuals in this bloggy bunker. I am NOT responsible for what Abhi or Ennis says and v.v. We don't ever agree with each other and we are not all the same person, so kindly don't turn us in to one.

In my experience it is okay to use english cuss words in India. It's the Indian ones that are taboo.

Right on the money. Only barely 15% people of India speak English language anyway. Using English cuss word would be like using a chinese cuss word in the US. (Little bit exaggerated)
If a local paper used Indian cuss words they would be in lot more trouble than Richard Gere is.

Sort of like how I noticed one of the bloggers here recently use the word chutiya. I found that a bit surprising because from the way they otherwise write I doubt they'd use the same word in english.

Ah, you've obviously not encountered some of my posts here, where I've used that and worse in English. :D Which perfectly proves my point about how each of the bloggers here is VERY different and if one does something, it often means...nothing wrt the rest.

Right on the money. Only barely 15% people of India speak English language anyway.

Interesting, didn't realize that.

If a local paper used Indian cuss words they would be in lot more trouble than Richard Gere is.
True. I wonder if this might not mostly be self-censorship. There hasn't been a huge movement, AFAIK, on part of the local newspapers to reduce this sort of censorship.

You can see this, for instance, in the censoring of films - some films have been explicitly silent-bleeped or otherwise edited for desi explitives, but shit, asshole and sometimes fuck are never out.
I wonder if these two phenomena might not be partly because both regional language newspapers and Bollywood/[?]ollywood movies are considered family reading and family entertainment resp.ly. It is pretty much accepted in the Bollywood industry that, for a movie to be successful, you have to reach the largest audience possible.

In my experience it is okay to use english cuss words in India. It's the Indian ones that are taboo.

Right on the money. Only barely 15% people of India speak English language anyway. Using English cuss word would be like using a chinese cuss word in the US. (Little bit exaggerated) If a local paper used Indian cuss words they would be in lot more trouble than Richard Gere is.

right on the money is right. the tipster is comparing apples and oranges. Indian taboos are different than those here. hasn't anyone here seen a bollywood movie where they say 'shit' non stop. it doesn't hold the same weight to its target audience as you, me and joe smith.

Isn't there a kiddies' card game called Bullshit in the States? Rather like Balderdash and Bluff?
Yes. Never actually played it, nor seen anyone play the game under that name. Except in "How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days". I can't believe I actually admitted to having seen that piece of work, but anyways, I guess it isn't considered all that bad to say the word in a private setting. Nobody actually says bullsh*t in the US, but saying "BS" is quite common. And BS, of course, stands for Bachelor of Science.

Apropos #18 (& several other comments in the same vein), I hadn't realised, despite several years in the U.S., that "bullshit" was such a no-no. But then, I hung out with academics, who are less buttoned-up than their peers in the corporate sector. In fact, in fields of research where fashion, pedigree -- and other similar social forces -- shape the course of "knowledge production", the word "bullshit" is merely a necessary term. Often, it's just the most succinct way of describing a research paper/preprint being discussed. Two less commonly used -- but not because they are more odious -- derivatives of "bullshit" that I remember are:

Bullshitistic missile : A highly dubious piece of research sent one's way with great sound, fury and propulsive force (i.e. the approbation of a "star" in one's field), usually from another continent.

Bullshitistry : A piece of research that everyone suspects will eventually go nowhere, but which seems very compelling due to the consummate artistry of its presentation.

I don't know if I offended you chaps, but I clearly didn't mean to. I objected (and still do) to broad generalizations. I don't think they are fair and quite frankly reflect on intellectual lethargy of people making them. My comments initially were with regard to the statement:

The same country that often frowns down upon public displays of affection has billboards that openly use curse words.

I personally have been a little ticked off with the media for the disproportionate coverage they give people who really represent a tiny and loony fraction of Indian society. They trigger debates and invite these talking heads who spew more garbage and generalizations than my tiny brain can process.

This I understand is off topic as far as the discussions on cuss words go, so I'll make this my last comment.

Often, it's just the most succinct way of describing a research paper/preprint being discussed.

Agreed, GB! "It's a bunch of bull," being a common expression in my lab here. But, you are right in stating that the usage is more acceptable in less formal academic contexts. I suspect, it is only at work and at formal social situations where 'bullshit' is unacceptable. These rules hold in India, as well as in the US; its only that in India, for reasons that I am not quite sure of, the word 'shit' is perfectly acceptable usage and common in urban social spaces. One could go to a family-friends' place for dinner and Monopoly, and loudly curse "shit!" when you have to go to Jail and miss your turn or pay extortionary rent for visiting Mayfair. Since bullshit is a derivative, that is perfectly acceptable too.

So, to conclude, it is like chutney when compared to the thokku pickle that would aptly describe poor Shilpa Shetty's predicament in India.

Not only are English swearwords considered less harmful than Desi ones, some even think of them as stylish word-enhancers (thank you SpongeBob). Most Desi ad professionals I know, (and I know a lot of them), are a peculiarly foulmouthed lot. Age and education has nothing to do w/ it. Even the smooth-world-traveling-Cannes-judge types cuss like sailors.
A woman I know quit advertising over this, er, BS.
Like the graffiti says, “Obscenity is a crutch for illiterate bastards”.

GB,
"Bullshitistic missiles
Do you mean applied math? Wouldn't b.s.-laden stuff be not so common in theoretical areas of research, where the work can be reviewed fairly objectively?

Apropos #18 (& several other comments in the same vein), I hadn't realised, despite several years in the U.S., that "bullshit" was such a no-no.
Only in formal settings, and then you generally avoid swearing anyway. Unless, of course, it comes totally naturally, as in, f'rinstance, "That sucks". I don't think I have seen a difference in the use of the word in academia versus regular conversation.

Newys, there was an ad campaign in the U.S. that went "Make 7 Up Yours". Most "close-to-swearing ad line", anyone? I doubt that ad managers care too much about who they offend.

Why is shit considered offensive? What about words like piss and crap, are they also bleep-worthy ??
It is quite harmless and not at all considered offensive in an Indian context. Even its translation in local languages like ghoo-gobar is not considered to be in the same league as other swear words (it is ofcourse impolite and crass maybe).

gotta love it--this is from the same country that gave us a movie named "Hitler" (Mohan Lal in all his glory)--

Shankar asked:

Wouldn't b.s.-laden stuff be not so common in theoretical areas of research, where the work can be reviewed fairly objectively?

Yes and no. The part about more rigorous peer-reviewing is certainly correct. After all, a proof is a proof is a proof. The issue of whether "the result can be reproduced" -- and judgement-calls related to this issue do not arise. However, the problem with theoretical work is that -- more often than not -- there's no extrinsic acid test to deem a piece of work "important". This can lead to the emergence of fads and fashions. A good example of how a solid theoretical programme can veer off towards bullshitistry can be inferred from the following movie review http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/12/12/the-string-kings/. Lest all this seemed a bit too academic to people on this board, do check out the link for some light relief.

It's not just India with the "lost in translation" issues. Think about "shag". Mike Myers played it for laughs but it really does have much harsher connotations in Britain (or did until recently). "Wanker", "git" etc. have stronger connotations on that side of the pond as well, whereas here, they're considered polite company euphemisms for what you really want to call the fuckwad.

Sort of like how I noticed one of the bloggers here recently use the word chutiya

What a chutiya comment :)

I love the word chutiya. I hope we can encourage the use of the word everywhere.

Why is shit considered offensive? What about words like piss and crap, are they also bleep-worthy ?? It is quite harmless and not at all considered offensive in an Indian context. Even its translation in local languages like ghoo-gobar is not considered to be in the same league as other swear words (it is ofcourse impolite and crass maybe).

My theory is that the more a culture invests in hiding its poop (e.g. Europe, N. America, Japan) the greater the strictures against scatalogical terms in polite speach. For example the Indus Valley Civ had a highly developed sewer system and not a single seal/tablet containing the word "bullshit" has been found.

Each culture is different I guess, with the early Teutonic fear of biotechnology making a cuss word out of the chimeric "pig-dog" in Germany

So much bullshit about bullshit?

I don't think it is quite the cuss word (even in America) it is being made out to be. You hear crowds shout it when a ref blows a call in Basketball. The TV audio picks it up, and the sportscaster says something like "the crowd is expressing its displeasure at the call". I think if it was equivalent to any other cuss word there would have been a move to do something about it.

And for those of you who can't get enough of it, may I recommend On Bullshit.

To add to Shlok #36 and DDiA #40, using 'shit' in movies is exclusive to the domain of educated, apparently stylish characters. And as others pointed out earlier, using equivalent hindi (or presumably other language) terms would be several orders of magnitude more offensive or at least disturbing. I can't imagine saying 'tatti' in place of shit anywhere in any situation in India :). On the other hand, maybe calling something out as 'gobar' is likely more acceptable, though it may not have the same exact connotation...

I think these ad execs are really discussing philosophy.

I don't think it is quite the cuss word (even in America) it is being made out to be.

That's bullshit.

Why such a victim complex, Anna? These are faceless names "insulting" you on cyberspace. I love the way you write, but geez; calm down. Do you honestly think most of us would take the time to comment if we didn't love your posts or the fact that SM keeps us informed about such random stuff?

That's bullshit.

I guess you have right to express your displeasure at my call.

Btw, it is not one of the seven dirty words.

May I offer a comment as an IBD who has lived in the US for 34 years and has some ability to contrast Indian English vs. American?

In Bollywood movies, the curse word SHIT is used liberally in place of the less offensive DAMN or the benign DANG or DOGGONE IT. SHIT seems to be a favorite of Shah Rukh's. But that does not mean that Bollywood is echoing a common Indian English word. I have never heard any of my friends and relatives in India use that word casually. I know some commenters insisted that SHIT and BULLSHIT are used more freely in India but probably only when young people are talking strictly among themselves. I would be surprised to hear a 20-year old Delhi IIT guy use the word around any 40-year old or women not his classmates or close friends. SHIT is a Bollywood elitism, which in this case happens to be a linguistic misunderstanding of how this word is actually used in the west. That surprises me even more, because in the last ten years, the educated Indians have become quite aware of Americanisms. In fact, they use DUDE more often than Americans. Now DUDE is definitely a common word specially among the urban, educated youth.

The billboard with NO BULLSHIT, in my opinion, and I am an ad guy in the US with more than a passing interest in Indian advertising, was meant to tout the benefits of the metro over taking other modes of public transportation, all of which might entail accidentally stepping into bullshit. Even in modern Delhi (or NCR), "gais and bhains" do roam the streets. I love jogging in India but with my eyes downcast. I don't always missed them, though. Ahh, the "gobar of matribhumi."

What is surprising is that the ad people did not edit themselves before putting this up because bullshit is not an inocuous word in India and will never be used in polite company. That brings me to a little peeve I have against Indian advertising in general. There is occasionally a cultural gap between the highly urbane and hip advertising people who create the stuff and the 1.2 billion "regular folks" that consume it. In fact, there are cultural gaps across the entire socioeconomic spectrum in India. But that's not a criticism, folks. The gaps are getting blurred as the emerging middle class expands, specially in the top metros. Indian advertising is shaping up fast, partly in response to the changing demographics but largely due to the intense competition caused by a level of brand proliferation that will scare the bravest US marketing pro.

As the 'go-to' person for advertising in the Indian blogosphere, I'd say this ad's probably an attempt at speaking straight and honest. More ads these days in this genre - have sex, sleaze, wtf, and what not. It's another matter that they are all cookie-cutter clones of each other and probably suck big time in achieving the objective.

Floridian,
I agree w/ your assessment of insular phirangised ad folk. There are some geniuses who know complete words to every song by Nirvana but falter at Jana Gana Mana.
Their rival UberDesi camp is just as foul. Their common theme is “Will Mrs. Shinde and Sangli get it?” Not patronising at all. Dumbing down is their idea of authentic Desiness. They come up w/ gems like “You driving, it soching” (sochna = thinking).
In between these two camps lie some smart, talented professionals. They are sadly a minority.

Ravages: "As the 'go-to' person for advertising in the Indian blogosphere, I'd say"

I might "go to" you one of these days for some chat about Indian advertising. When I am in India, I read ads voraciously, perhaps some created by you. The changes over the decades are dramatic. You guys still use Rosser Reeves's USP a lot? Somehow this theory, practiced everyday in the US consciously or unconsciously, is never referred to it as such.

What are the national accounts based in Chennai?

Floridian, it seems the ad is for a newspaper, not the metro itself. But excellent comments.

I too have been surprised at the casual use of shit, hell, and damn among IBDs. I know a girl from Mumbai who uses the word 'fuck' and 'bitch' all the time, but she flipped out when I said 'bhainchod' one time. Just fascinating.

Hmmm, my Indian mother would have washed my mouth out with soap if I had used bullsh*t in front of her....but she did come here in the late sixties, so maybe she's just not up with the latest Indian English lingo. Personally, I hate too much swearing, although I've been known to do it myself. It's unimaginative.

To add some levity: I'm surprised this hasn't become a list of Indian swear words, which I am sure we could all use a few more of, especially those of us who speak only one Indian language. I need some good Tamilian swear words! =) Go!:

Excellent comments, Floridian.

Amitabh, I think the idea is that you can buy the newspaper and then read it on the metro/buy the newspaper at a metro stall.

Why is shit considered offensive? What about words like piss and crap, are they also bleep-worthy ??

No, piss and crap are not bleep-worthy. "shit" has never, at least for long centuries, been merely a descriptive word in English. It has been an obscenity. If it is thought of in India as merely a descriptive word for poop, than that is in fact an anomalous usage.

My theory is that the more a culture invests in hiding its poop (e.g. Europe, N. America, Japan) the greater the strictures against scatalogical terms in polite speach.

Aaaaand, SHIT was an obscenity long before English-speakers had indoor plumbing and mass poop-hiding.

Anyhow, how exactly does omnipresence of shit (the substance) in one's environment make one "down to earth" and not ABCD-ified?

I understood ANNA's reaction perfectly, because it point-to-point matched my own, hence my original comment #19.

Am I one of the few people who saw the ad and thought it was quite unremarkable? Formerly a Delhiite for the better part of two decades, I can attest that using the words "shit" and "bullshit" in a casual conversation would hardly ever raise eyebrows.

I also suspect the educated (and admittedly more "westernized") urban population is as amused by PDA episode as the readers on this blog. They're certainly not the ones protesting in the streets and filing Public Interest Litigations(PIL) to overburden the courts with frivolous lawsuits. A PIL, for the unfamiliar, is a provision that allows ANYONE to file a lawsuit with minimal investment of time and money even if they're not the aggrieved party. In this case a woman from Jaipur claimed that the entire Indian community was outraged by the kiss. I say Bullshit!

That brings me to a little peeve I have against Indian advertising in general. There is occasionally a cultural gap between the highly urbane and hip advertising people who create the stuff and the 1.2 billion "regular folks" that consume it.

Good point, Floridian! Might get lost in all the, er, bullshit here. :) So let me amplify it a little, since it is a pet peeve with me too. Ad copy, even for large multilingual campaigns in India, gets written in English by the urbane and hip people you speak of, and is then translated, often comically, sometimes idiotically, into the other languages. There is a mild example right there in the picture, in the grey billboard in the background. The Hindi slogan says "Har kisi ki zindagi se juDaa hua hai SAIL", which carries nothing of the punch that the English version does: "There's a little bit of SAIL in everybody's life", which, among other things, is also a pun on the acronym, SAIL being Steel Authority of India Limited.

The Hindi slogan says "Har kisi ki zindagi se juDaa hua hai SAIL", which carries nothing of the punch that the English version does:
The pun was probably not considered important to the message of the ad.

The Hindi slogan says "Har kisi ki zindagi se juDaa hua hai SAIL", which carries nothing of the punch that the English version does: "There's a little bit of SAIL in everybody's life", which, among other things, is also a pun on the acronym, SAIL being Steel Authority of India Limited.

In Delhi, Hindi ads are conspicuous by their absence. I'd say less than 15% of ads seem to be in Hindi. The vast majority are in English. SAIL is a government company, hence the use of Hindi as well. Upscale private firms rarely use Hindi. They DO use Hindi (or more accurately Hinglish) catch-phrases written in Roman script quite a lot.

The pun was probably not considered important to the message of the ad.

I agree, I'd be surprized if anyone even thought about it. Still, conveying a message properly involves the idiomatic use of language, even if the puns don't survive. Nobody says things like "har kisi ki zindagi..." - that is, nobody, except the people who translated that, who also largely think in English and can't tell truly idiomatic Hindi from a literal translation.

would it be more acceptable if indian equivalents of BS were used?

Question for the pukka Delhi-wallas - can someone ID the building in the background? Is that, could it even be - this hotel, which I remember as the Oberoi Intercontinental - seen from the back?

Since I've never been to India I can't comment on the word and it's use there

BUT...Bullshit, and variations on that theme were constantly used in the Guju household I lived in.

Ex.- "I don't have any homework"

"Bullshit. I have already talked to your geography and algebra teachers. I have a book right here for you."

I have many, many other examples but my fondest memory is listening to Mista cussing out a driver in Gujarati, English AND Spanish after the family car, a 1978 station wagon, was hit by a drunk.
Good times.

Chachaji,

I don't think the building in the background is the Oberoi as the Metro doesn't go to South Delhi yet. The buildings I think are the office complexes at Jhandewalan but I may be wrong.

Why such a victim complex, Anna?

If the foo shits...

These are faceless names "insulting" you on cyberspace.

Still hurts. Yes, I'm a weakling, stuff gets to me, I never denied it. Anyway, I felt like EVERY second-gen kid was being "insulted" and that's unacceptable-- can't we get past this bullshit FOB vs ABCD divide?

I love the way you write, but geez; calm down.

I honestly thought I had. If this teaches me anything, it's how perspective is such a crazy thing; a friend of mine read my post and comment this morning and called to remark that I seemed far more chill than usual. I'll let them know they were wrong. ;)

Do you honestly think most of us would take the time to comment if we didn't love your posts or the fact that SM keeps us informed about such random stuff?

Many of the people who take the time to comment do so because they can't stand my posts or often, if we want to be really blunt or realistic about it-- me. Beyond that, I don't think it's because my posts are loved (but Thank You!), I think it's what you said, that SM keeps you informed and that's what keeps y'all coming back for Sepia crack.

Still hurts...Anyway, I felt like EVERY second-gen kid was being "insulted" and that's unacceptable-- can't we get past this bullshit FOB vs ABCD divide?

Hear, hear!

I have always wondered why ABCDs are so pre-occupied with India and everything Indian. Is there nothing else you can talk about?

When I first stumbled upon this blog, I was stunned by the depth of ignorance in the ABCD community. I had met some ignorant ABCDs in real life but I had no idea it was so prevalent among you that, indeed, it is the defining aspect of your (ABCD) community. Yes, you are defined by self-loathing and loathing of your parents and perhaps by your love of coloured contacts.

Your posts serve one and only one purpose - they show that you are completely ignorant about India or its culture. "I had no idea how powerful the sport truly is, until now." You have no idea how ignorant your posts sound to an Indian. I guess you either promptly ban anyone who points out your ignorance/bigotry or gang up against him/her. The end result is a blog that is so bigoted that it is comparable to those neo-con blogs. The tragedy is that this blog is not a forum for exchange of ideas - you meet here only to re-enforce each other's bigotry. Its one thing to have a personal blog thats used as a punching bag but an entirely different thing to have a communal blog spewing ignorance and hatred. In the latter case, the reader will form certain opinions about the entire community (and rightly so). At the end of the day, I simply feel sorry for you and your parents.

'You have no idea how ignorant your posts sound to an Indian'

You have no idea what a pompous horse's ass you sound like here

"The tragedy is that this blog is not a forum for exchange of ideas - you meet here only to re-enforce each other's bigotry".

if that is the case then what are you doing here? if that is truly the case?

Saira posted a link to Yahoo's article Bollywood's Rai targeted in new Indian kissing row, whose last line offers a blanket explanation about apparent double standards. It says, "Public acts of endearment are banned in India under the British-era Obscenity Act." So there's your source of population control concerns and lack of control over poop jokes right there. Now I'd like Rajiv Malhotra to send us a PDF of the British-era Obscenity Act.

I have always wondered why ABCDs are so pre-occupied with India and everything Indian. Is there nothing else you can talk about?

Funny. Most of what we post about is diasporic. Still, if we don't post on issues in South Asian countries we're called deracinated, and if we do, we're called pre-occupied. Yawn.

When I first stumbled upon this blog, I was stunned by the depth of ignorance in the ABCD community. I had met some ignorant ABCDs in real life but I had no idea it was so prevalent among you that, indeed, it is the defining aspect of your (ABCD) community.

Wow. You sound really cranky. I personally apologize on behalf of all ABDs that we are not as well read, educated and enlightened about the topics you find especially important.

Yes, you are defined by self-loathing and loathing of your parents and perhaps by your love of coloured contacts.

Wow. Non-sequitur much? Is this a pre-packed ready-made rant, or did you prepare it specially for this occasion?

Your posts serve one and only one purpose - they show that you are completely ignorant about India or its culture.

Damn. I missed the memo. I thought they were funny.

You have no idea how ignorant your posts sound to an Indian. I guess you either promptly ban anyone who points out your ignorance/bigotry or gang up against him/her.

Ummm - there are plenty of Indians (and Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans) who read this blog, both NRIs and readers in India. Sometimes they agree and sometimes they disagree. Sometimes they enlighten us and sometimes they learn something. But honestly, the ones as cranky as you generally stay away on their own.

At the end of the day, I simply feel sorry for you and your parents.

Awwww, how sweet. A gesture of concern. Thank you for your caring.

Out of curiosity, I followed the link to the blog of the thing that posted comment #74. This is what I found.

i just always assumed indian newspapers were shitty.. so this just 'fit'.. i mean the 'toi' is such a crappy paper, i'm surprised people will pay to read it..i'm sure this newspaper is full of nothing as well.

and as for bullshit.. it should read bushit.. and feature the guy i love to hate.

and as for this from 'dining':

Your posts serve one and only one purpose - they show that you are completely ignorant about India or its culture...I simply feel sorry for you and your parents.

i really feel sorry for YOU and concur with coach diesel.
end to the haterade.

Ah, I get it. Another lonely person who wants attention and trolls to get it. Right, everybody, there's nothing to see here. Let's just silent treatment this troll for now please ... the more we respond, the more we feed it.

Divya hit the nail in the head regarding cuss words not carrying the same weight in English. Most of us used "shit" quite liberally (the word not the real stuff :) ). But I think if someone ever tried saying "tatti"..it would have brought a lot of ewwws specially if there was fairer sex present :).

And I am annoyed like hell with this handful of idiots who burn effigies and even got an asshole judge to write an arrest warrant. But its very unfair to generalize the whole country over this. I know a lot of guys would have been jealous (Shilpa is one hot tamale!) rather then offended.
We need an NGO who can get our fundi brothers laid and things will be much more peaceful :).

Also its intresting to see how the timing of the controversy( mainly fueled by MSM) comfortably concides with Mr Gere's movie coming out ..hmm not publicity is bad publicity.

I know you said no more feeding the troll but as an IBD, I have to say this this is of the best desi blogs around. Yes, the perspective is more ABD than IBD but that is what I would expect from a blog run by ABD's. Keep up the awesome work ! If the Dining fella has a problem with this, he should know that there are other excellent blogs such as indiauncut that looks at life purely from an Indian perspective.

Dining -- I'm Indian, living here, as you seem to be too. However,

I have always wondered why ABCDs are so pre-occupied with India and everything Indian. Is there nothing else you can talk about?

I don't think they are. They are in this blog, because that's specifically what it's for.

When I first stumbled upon this blog, I was stunned by the depth of ignorance in the ABCD community. I had met some ignorant ABCDs in real life but I had no idea it was so prevalent among you that, indeed, it is the defining aspect of your (ABCD) community. Yes, you are defined by self-loathing and loathing of your parents and perhaps by your love of coloured contacts. Your posts serve one and only one purpose - they show that you are completely ignorant about India or its culture.

I have met some ignorant, obnoxious ABCDs IRL, but people here tend to be fairly open-minded and well-informed. If they don't understand the motherland perfectly, they can't be to blame, not having lived there. Do you understand or know everything about India and its culture? Especially given how variegated it is, socially, economically, geographically, and communally? Do you think the same way as your parents?

The tragedy is that this blog is not a forum for exchange of ideas - you meet here only to re-enforce each other's bigotry.

As silly as most of the discussion on this post has become, I think ideas are being freely exchanged here. From what I've seen, there's no bigotry elsewhere either. If the general echoes are from ABDs, it's only because they probably make up a majority of the readership.

In the latter case, the reader will form certain opinions about the entire community (and rightly so). At the end of the day, I simply feel sorry for you and your parents.

I glanced through your blog, and I don't think this place is the only one contributing to your prejudices. Besides being strongly anti-ABD, you seem to be anti-White, anti-Jewish and anti-American. If, as I'm guessing, you're living in the US -- aren't you being hypocritical yourself? Yes, there are some ignorant ABDs, but has the group as a whole caused you any personal harm? There are racist and bigoted whites, but (if you are living in America), the group as a whole has clearly welcomed you here. Israel's policies are generally not praiseworthy, but: you seem to be a student or researcher in academia -- do you realise that most of your colleagues are probably Jewish, and have accepted you into the research community?

This -- "I spit on Americans. I spit on the white man. I spit on the West and its lick spittles. I spit on Zionists. I spit on all the scientists. I spit on all the western philosophers. I spit on God. I spit on Human Race. I spit on myself." You, or your rants at least, are clearly unbalanced.

58 · Amitabh on April 29, 2007 12:27 PM · Direct link
Floridian, it seems the ad is for a newspaper, not the metro itself. But excellent comments."

I am embarrassed by my mistake, but as an ad guy, I will say this. The advertiser in this case deserves to be misunderstood. When advertising becomes gratuitous in words or visuals, the communication is compromised. As we like to tell a new recruit - sure, people will remember the big breasts, but they will forget what product they were for. (Unless, of course, you are creating ads for breast enhancement procedures.)

No, it is definitely not Oberoi.

Dining "At the end of the day, I simply feel sorry for you and your parents."
How could a generation we raised be anything but top-notch? You don't have to feel sorry for us, kid.

Sorry, should have read the thing about not feeding the trolls, but this guy's personal blog was... uh, riveting.

A friend of mine sent me this message today;

I rebeliously dedicate this video, to that contrary country you live in, where ear-waxing, nail clipping, teeth-brushing, tobacco spitting, shaving, defacating, spitting, urinating, bathing, using foul-language and male masturbating is tolerated in public, but a simple kiss between lovers is considered utterly "obscene", uncivilized and a serious danger to the moral degradation of the population!

Got to admit, she does have a point.

(She's a Latina married to a Bengali)

i just always assumed indian newspapers were shitty

The lady doth presumes too much, methinks.

TOI (specially the web version) is as much a barometer of quality of Indian Media as National Enquirer is of American media.

Although tragically, ever since all these 24 hour news channels arrived, the quality of reporting has gone down really fast. And the same can be said about the american media too.

it's definitely not the Oberoi (the building in the background). I think this is the Metro passing between the Pragati Maidan and Mandi House stops, so the building in the back is probably one of the ugly government buildings near ITO. Near Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg, so could be one of the newspaper offices or other office buildings in that area. But the Oberoi, it ain't.

I have to confess I was amused, and a tad bemused, by this post. I think Anna, in all her innocence, missed the point completely. Somehow it *is* comparing apples to oranges to compare the ShivSainik reaction to l'affaire ShettyGere to the casual use of mild swear-word-type things in Indian advertising. I don't necessarily want to generalize from this to SM writers in general, or ABCD's, but it does appear that in this instance, Anna 'didn't get it'. At all.

Which, I think, isn't a problem: why should she be expected to? I do think, though, that vapid theorising about a society you have some connection with but don't know intimately is annoying to read for those of us who think we are a little more clued in (which isn't about being better or worse: it is, after all, at least in part an accident of birth). But if one operates on the rough principle that it is unwise to try to comment on that which one does not quite understand, then it might be wise for Mutineers to be a little more circumspect in passing judgement on various aspects of life in India which they, understandably, don't quite get. Which is not to say that my point is quite relevant to this post, since Anna made her position quite clear at the outset. However, whether you like it or not, there is a certain (I'm sure unintended, and perhaps completely unconscious) prescriptiveness that I occasionally discern in SM's writing about things in India/South Asia, which occasionally borders on the patronising, and does bother me, as someone who lived for 21 years in India and the remainder in some part or other in the "West'. This is also particularly pronounced when you guys write about FOBs, a term that I personally abhor, and I'm not sure has been actively 'reclaimed'. Be that as it may, it often appears that Indians born or raised in the US do have a sort of ... sense of superiority to their Desi-raised/born counterparts, which isn't to say that the opposite is never true (I've met several specimens of the 'Indians-in-the-US-are-immoral-Westernized-scum' variety of Indians), or that there is never any basis for emphasizing a particular aspect of your perceived identity. Simply to say that everytime someone suggests something along these lines, there is no need to get all wounded and on your high horses about it. The person earlier may have been a bit of a loony, but not everything s/he said about you and the site is .. bullshit. :-)

Princeton professor on bullshit:
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html

Once I was at an temple in South Indian with some erotic carvings throw into the mix. My aunt pointed it out to me and my white American friend and said,"Look. Fucking."

# 89 · someol'guy

I do appreciate your non-judgmental comment on the ABD/IBD subject. But think about SM for a second. Here are ABD's who have voluntarily made desi/brown/South Asia their passion? Doesn't that say something about them?

If anybody ends up attributing their desi mission to their need to find themselves or validate their existence... please stop. The ABD's do not feel marginal in the American society, period! Yes, everybody has a few anecdotes to prove otherwise, but I meant that by and large, ABD's don't HAVE TO do this. I, for one, am amazed that the next generation cares enough about some place where their parents came from, and in many cases knows more about it than their parents ever did, to even start a blog such as this.

I think Anna, in all her innocence, missed the point completely...I don't necessarily want to generalize from this to SM writers in general, or ABCD's, but it does appear that in this instance, Anna 'didn't get it'. At all.

Anna isn't the one who submitted the tip to the news tab; she's just the one who asked the rest of us what our opinions are about the ad since she readily admits she doesn't know. Instead of conducting a dialogue where we share what we do know, let's label and discourage those who sincerely ask their betters as being vapid, because that wouldn't make us pretentious at all, would it? I can't believe you accused the writers here of conveying an unentitled sense of their own "superiority".

Here's my pet peeve- If they don't write about India, then these these bloggers are self-loathing snobs. If they do write about India, they're hopelessly confused naifs who don't understand anything and therefore shouldn't comment. What do you people want? And do you realize that you set everyone here up for failure with your extraordinarily unreasonable expectations? An allergy to logic indeed...

btw i thought the logic of the ad was pretty simple. allergic is probably not the right word, even as metaphore, but it just seems to be saying "if you don't like bs, read this paper"

btw i thought the logic of the ad was pretty simple. allergic is probably not the right word, even as metaphore, but it just seems to be saying "if you don't like bs, read this paper"

You are right, I think that's exactly what they seem to be saying, but I think that it wasn't about the ad not making sense, it was the juxtaposition of boundaries, i.e. it's okay to use a "curse word" but kisses are punishable. Apples and oranges, but that's what the post was about, not whether or not the ad itself seemed logical.

wut % of ppl in brownland are literate in anglais?

SM is lovers, y'all. We come here to share knowledge and experience. Criticism is an important part of that exchange, but only if delivered constructively and in good faith.

someol'guy: You were very polite but the substance of your post affirms the tenor of 74. You even admit that your comments might not be relevant to this post because its author so carefully qualified her inquiry. There are no truths on this board, its all about reshaping ideas and if we got it wrong please do offer your perspective. But heavy-handed sweeping critiques, especially when they don't really apply to the facts at issue, are not helpful.

UPS: I think the metaphor was that antihistamine:allergies as metronews:bullshit. Thus metronews is bullshit medicine. Newspapers and medicine both being things consumed daily.

Pondatti (#93):

Here's what I wrote:

I don't necessarily want to generalize from this to SM writers in general, or ABCD's, but it does appear that in this instance, Anna 'didn't get it'. At all.

Which, I think, isn't a problem: why should she be expected to?

Did you miss that sentence, which drove you to remind me that "Anna isn't the one who submitted the tip to the news tab; she's just the one who asked the rest of us what our opinions are about the ad since she readily admits she doesn't know' ? I *know* that, and I said as much immediately after the sentence you chose to repeat out of context.

My point is *not* that Anna is somehow making some egregious error, or that SM-ers or ABDs in general do not have a right to engage with India or South Asia (anyone who is interested in anything has the right to engage with it, with or without the 'benefit' of an ancestral connection. In fact, I was, as I made clear, expressly *not* talking about this post (scroll up if you doubt this), but making a couple of points about the attitude of (some) ABDs, and a subset of posts on SM, to Indians/IBDs (ah, that's a nicer term - thanks Floridian) that are at best tangentially related to the post itself but which I was driven to make courtesy of some of the comments and what in my opinion is over-defensiveness on the part of SM-ers to any suggestions of this ilk.

"...discourage those who sincerely ask their betters as being vapid"

Err .. 'their betters'? I didn't say that, you did. Just sayin'..... My whole point was that this shouldn't be about better and worse, but you seem to have missed that somehow. Or maybe you do think in those terms...

Once I was at an temple in South Indian with some erotic carvings throw into the mix. My aunt pointed it out to me and my white American friend and said,"Look. Fucking."

Classic.

Suggestion box: grammar-check for comments. thanks.

On this one, I think # 89 did get some of it right. I really appreciate this site because it has helped me become more aware of my own status here in the USA as a minority brown person.I appreciate all the purely voluntary time and effort that all the mutineers put in and know that its not at all easy to put yourself and your writing out there for the world to see and comment on. However, at times, I do feel that a kind of patronizing air does creep into the comments here specially the ones directed to FOBs - a term I also abhor but seems to be the only one for the class of persons like me who lived a major part of their lives in the des before moving here.Can/should anything be done about this? I say "No" because the alternate is not to write about matters desi at all which defeats the very noble purpose of this blog.

Part of the issue , I think, is that we all forget that 1:1 comparisons between the US and India are fair to neither. The US has had 300+ years of existence as an independent,fucntioning democracy - the idea of India as a democracy is only 60 years old. The US is fairly homogenous ,in India the language, customs ,traditions change every few miles . Applying one society's yardsticks for what is acceptable behavior/language to another society as-is does not work. And that's why its inevitable that there will always be some posts that will create extreme reactions of all kinds.

#89

I would agree with #92 to an extent. Yes, it is sometimes amusing to observe the confusions between the two cultures like in this post, but then it's not like we the FOBs understand everything ABD either. Also to be fair to the SM writers, most of the India centric posts (as opposed to American south asian posts) on this blog do actually seem to make an attempt to understand more than judge and if once in a while a post does come out which seems a little condescending, we should keep in mind that it might simply be because of a loss in translation or could be an exception and not a norm.

You even admit that your comments might not be relevant to this post because its author so carefully qualified her inquiry.

Espressa: Clearly, you consider it unacceptable to offer any opinions that are not wholly directed at the post in question. I disagree, because the post in question, while by no means an exemplar of the kind of writing I was commenting on, was a close enough cousin (and yet different enough in that Anna explicitly phrased it as a question) to send me on the train of thought which drove me to post. Unless you intend to police my trains of thought, I don't see how your point is germane to anything. Perhaps SM needs to have a section where people can comment on the blog as a whole, rather than on individual posts alone? I'm being mildly sarcastic here, because I don't actually see how this is a big deal. I am making a point about SM in general, and this post made me want to do it. It made me want to do it because I understood what it was about it that was annoying certain other people, even if I didn't think that this post was the worst example of the sort of thing they were talking about. I did think what they were talking about was worth exploring, whether in the context of this post, or more generally.

"There are no truths on this board, its all about reshaping ideas and if we got it wrong please do offer your perspective."

Absolutely, and I did, and intend to continue to do so. Except that you don't seem to like it when I do....or maybe *I* am misreading the tone of your response.

"But heavy-handed sweeping critiques, especially when they don't really apply to the facts at issue, are not helpful."

I'm sorry if you found what I wrote a 'heavy-handed sweeping critique', but in truth it was intended as a comment on a very specific kind of writing that I occasionally see on SM (and therefore, IMHO, not any more sweeping than warranted, though this is, of course, a matter of opinion). While on this point, how come it's okay for people to make 'sweeping generalizations' about everything from India to Indian mores to attitudes about sexuality to the level of street-smarts of Indian advertizing execs, and not for anyone to draw general conclusions from the posts on this site?

As for 'affirming the tenor of #74' - I said as much. From a cursory look at his blog, #74 strikes me as a loon, but that doesn't mean s/he is incapable of sometimes saying something that others like myself, who do not share his/her general worldview, may agree with. Your argument seems to suggest that there's something inherently wrong with agreeing with any or all of what a person with generally unpalatable opinions says, whereas I was pointing out that even such a person could make valid points, which should be debated/discussed on their own merits, and not by the sort of juvenile argument you seem to implicitly make, along the lines of 'Oh, look, he's a [[[insert name of groups having generally unpalatable views]]] type, hence everything he says must be ... BULLSHIT'

I love how it seems to be possible to end every comment with BULLSHIT. :-)

@Floridian:

"When I am in India, I read ads voraciously, perhaps some created by you."
You'd have to be mighty lucky or stalking me to do that. Most of my stuff (the ones I can be proud of, at least) are either out of circulation, or not yet in circ, or very local in nature. Except one piece - which's like doing the rounds in an email forward.

"The changes over the decades are dramatic."
Oh boy! That only about begins the story.

"You guys still use Rosser Reeves's USP a lot?"
USP is still practiced, but nobody gives Mr. Reeves any credit. Work these days tends towards 'humour' of the rural India sort. Kinda getting a little difficult.

"Somehow this theory, practiced everyday in the US consciously or unconsciously, is never referred to it as such."
Likewise.

"What are the national accounts based in Chennai?"
Not many, unfortunately.
Club Mahindra is one, on which I did some kind of work for a year. A bank or two, couple of car companies, and some retail folks. Most work gets into Bangalore these days.

Cultural relativism, people. That's what both sides here are trying to get at.

I imagine that what got the IBCDs (is that a standard acronym?), including me, a little worked up was the title and first line of the post, which definitely comes of as contemptuous and ethnocentric. But aren't the best of us prone to that at times? And as long as Anna clarified her view in the rest of the post and comments, why continue to harp on it?

Once I was at an temple in South Indian with some erotic carvings throw into the mix.

One has to wonder about the reason for these erotic carvings depicting various sex acts. I strongly suspect that they were meant to advertise the sexual services available in the Temple grounds. After all Temple prostitution, aka Devadasism, has a hoary history in brahminism.

I acknowledge someol'guy's eloquent and persuasively-stated opinion, and also his tenacious, but polite defence of the same. Where I differ, and this is not a minor point - is in his assumption that anyone truly can 'get' India. To be sure, he acknowledges that accident of birth is nothing to feel superior or inferior about - but I go further and say, that on most issues that SM blogs about, accident of birth really confers very little advantage whatsoever.

And on the subset of issues that move Anna to blog - she fully turns whatever little advantage there might be, completely around. Her bicultural perspective has phenomenal depth and resonance, and very little situational-subjectivity - though it is grounded in her mostly US-based experience. That said, I initially thought this whole "bullshit thing" was so, like, totally unbloggable. But, like Seinfeld's show about 'nothing', we've managed to have a really interesting discussion, overall. And this is where I see the genius of SM and its bloggers - in keeping the absolute bullshit out, letting some of the relative bullshit stay in the interest of stimulating discussion, and thus in this case, managing also to have an interesting discussion about 'bullshit' :)

As a side point, I would add that, in addition to de-centering (or de-privileging) the situational advantage, both of India-based observers and the MSM - this blog is empowering the (wo)man on the street, both to express and sway opinion, and to initiate coverage of events and issues, and show us things that otherwise don't get talked about, or that are completely subverted through biased reportage. This picture could well have been uploaded straight from the cell-phone ('mobile') into the blogosphere, and probably was. Look out, MSM and academia - the era of the citizen-(photo)-journalist blogger has only just begun!

India is a country of extreme contrasts.

No PDAs between mutual lovers but non-mutual sexual harrassment "tolerated".

No PDAs between lovers but grown men holding hands and walking in an arm-in-arm embrace right, left and center.

I came to the conclusion that the culture has issues with opposite gender and mutual touching only. Same gender touching is accepted and non-mutual touching (i.e. sexual harrassment) is tolerated.

Again, a generalization which applies to most of the small towns I've stayed in. Some urban centers and rural villages may be different and totally open to young lovers of opposite genders walking while hugging each other in the same way that these small towns are open to two men doing that.

No value judgement on those men. It's understandable why they do it.

Speaking from years of experience as a "celibate", there were times when I was also almost pushed to doing some pretty weird stuff too due to the repression of my natural human instincts.

In sex-segregated cultures that "marry off" their young early - like in their teens - you may not see the desire for human physical contact directed inward toward their own gender. But in sex-segregated cultures where marriage is delayed until the mid to late twenties (and dating is not allowed beforehand) -- you see it.

India's dating culture is still restricted to it's urban centers.

India's dating culture is still restricted to it's urban centers.

Not true. Many tribals of India have a sexually liberated culture where teenage boys and girls "date" and have sex

(Because PG's comment is too inflammatory to pass.)

America is a country of extreme contrasts.

No gay rights but non-mutual sexual harrassment "tolerated".

Affection between same-sex close friends is restrained, but dating couples who barely know each other hold hands and walking in an arm-in-arm embrace right, left and center.

I came to the conclusion that the culture has issues with same gender touching only. Opposite gender touching is accepted and non-mutual touching (i.e. sexual harrassment) is tolerated.

Again, a generalization which applies to most of the small towns I've seen. Some urban centers and rural villages may be different and totally open to young lovers of the same gender walking while hugging each other in the same way that these small towns are open to two strangers of the different genders doing that.

No value judgement on those couples. It's understandable why they do it.

America's gay culture is still restricted to it's urban centers.

kathkavi - good one :)

@ kathakavi: ROFL. thanks.

@chachaji: I actually agree completely with what you say about the impossilibity of anyone ever 'getting India', whatever their background. I'd go so far as to say that I don't think anyone can ever totally 'get' anything, insofar as there is a single 'it' to get. which is why i did not at any point want to imply that background, or exposure, or any such characteristic, should prevent or empower the expression of opinions. nonetheless, while agreeing with you that nobody's POV or opinion is perfect or flawless, I do think that it's disingenuous to pretend that differences in what one's experiences are do not influence the degree to which one is able to make sense of particular situations, cultural references, or settings. Thus, my point was essentially this: that it helps to understand and acknolwedge the limitations of our experiences, exposure, etc., while expressing our opinions about things. My objection, such as it is, to some of the content on SM, is that when dealing with things happening in Desiland, or concerning IBDs, Mutineers sometimes appear to me to forget that interpreting these things may not be where their comparative advantage lies. Coupled with the fact that this does not prevent them from being free with their opinions, and the tone of some of these, has led me in the past to have an uncomfortable feeling that some of them end up being condescending to IBDs/India/South Asia. I *do* think that some of this arises from lack of knowledge, exposure, etc., which is correlated with ABDness - not to say that there are NO ABDs who know more about these things than IBDs, or that all IBDs are necessarily better-informed than all ABDs, but merely that the *average*ABD on here is less likely to see all the context, or likely to see less of the context, than the *average* IBD on here (who still, to return to your point, may still not 'get it entirely'

The general question of the attitude of ABDs to various things about India which embarrass, repulse, or otherwise disturb them is an interesting one, that is probably worth reflecting on. SM would be an interesting place for this to happen, if it were to be done with honesty and a willingness to look within, but I suspect that this might be too uncomfortable for many Mutineers to take on. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, though. In the meantime, I stand by my original expression of discomfort with some of the stuff on here, and something tells me I'm not the only one.

A friend of mine sent me this message today;

I rebeliously dedicate this video, to that contrary country you live in, where ear-waxing, nail clipping, teeth-brushing, tobacco spitting, shaving, defacating, spitting, urinating, bathing, using foul-language and male masturbating is tolerated in public, but a simple kiss between lovers is considered utterly "obscene", uncivilized and a serious danger to the moral degradation of the population!

Got to admit, she does have a point.

(She's a Latina married to a Bengali)

First of all, where's that video?

I don't think it's anything so layered in the origin of this dichotomy. It's because of this blog that I just picked up on there being a code still in existence that was cooked up by colonials regarding what is to be considered "obscene" and that is still being adhered to in Desh, as if it couldn't be rethunk. Public "ear-waxing, nail clipping, teeth-brushing, tobacco spitting, shaving, defacating, spitting, urinating, bathing, and male masturbating"(note I'm leaving using foul-language, as I think that is not always entirely intended) must have escaped punishment somewhat the way drivers over here who go well over speed limits are ignored on highways where everyone is giving the speed limit a wide berth, and how are the cops going to ticket a hundred and fifty people all driving 15 mph over the limit? What was codified out of public view in India long ago is still under the same controls; what wasn't codified out of sight, nobody can do anything about -- it's both too late and too early to change this-- so long as there aren't enough toilets and bathrooms and spitoons--and I'm not talking public toilets new-- just not so many people living in city streets.

But like I said earlier, I'm with Jon Stewart on the Richard Gere-Shilpa Shetty thing. It was sexual harassment, far from any kind of kiss between lovers. I think the judge was using "erotic" to mean "pornographic" though.

Whatever comments were made after my #74 only prove my point about this being a blog of bigots. After spending some time reading Anna's posts, I have come to the conclusion that they are inane and vapid at best. The female really has nothing to say. Its a travesty that her asinine posts are attracting so many comments. But like someone else pointed out, if nothing else, the post has led to the above discussion (if you can call it that). So yes, I do concede that there is some "exchange" of ideas (though most simply don't seem to be listening or wanting to listen).

kathkavi, I almost dismissed you as a ABCD wannabe. You seemed to be trying too hard for acceptance from these bloggers. But the fact that you found PG's comment to be "inflammatory" tells me that I may be mistaken. PG's comment was not only inflammatory - it is what I call bigoted and racist (yes, racist). Its like a white Sahib pointing his finger at an Indian coolie and saying,"That man eats his food with his hand - how disgusting." Its ironic that this blog is named Sepia Mutiny. I wonder how many ABCDs who read this blog know what it is. "Some fancy Indian term. Like Garba or Samosa or *insert perverted, Americanized pronunciation of a beautiful sanskrit name here* " (and read with a fake American accent). But yes, I readily admit that there is nothing balanced about my blog or my head for that matter.

someol'guy, thanks for the "loony" complement. So there is consensus here about my "loonyness" and thats something :). I think you are putting up a gallant fight...but we all know how this exchange will end (if it has not already ended). And btw, the term that you are looking for is "ad hominem". But I am not a big fan of deductive logic (as kathkavi will readily attest).

As to why I come here, well, I hardly do. I come here once in a blue moon and I don't really know why. Maybe its the colour of your feathers. Or maybe I come here because I have trouble understanding a very simple thing - how can there not be even a *single* sensible person in this crowd. I mean, look at them. All of them are juveniles from Kentucky hills.

Hypocrisy? I didn't know nations were required to be internally consistent. They contain multitudes, don't they?

Speaking of Delhi (are we still speaking of Delhi?) I suggest anyone who understands Punjabi watch the following video. I just learned of it today, and I don't endorse the views expressed, but it's the most political Punjabi song I've ever heard (other than 'AK 47' from a Tigerstyle mixtape).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V2XKGrJZ0nU

Whatever comments were made after my #74 only prove my point about this being a blog of bigots.

That's rich. "Bigot" is your favorite word to hurl incorrectly, which is shocking since you are such a huge one.

After spending some time reading Anna's posts, I have come to the conclusion that they are inane and vapid at best. The female really has nothing to say. Its a travesty that her asinine posts are attracting so many comments

I love the smell of misogyny in the morning.

And by the way, the "female" who is so vapid is the one who named this blog. The bloggers here know what the term refers to, but you would know that if you RTFFAQ. But why would you do that? It would take away from your precious trolling time, you anti-semitic coward. On second thought, keep spewing the products of your "mental illness", it's like you're scoring goals against your own team.

I almost dismissed you as a ABCD wannabe. You seemed to be trying too hard for acceptance from these bloggers.

If pointing out that difference in perspective in not tantamount to ignorance or prejudice makes one wannabeish or a sucker-up... ok, sure. I can see how the author of a blog like yours would say that.

And you didn't get around to explaining why you are in the US, getting paid in dollars, educating yourself in a Western institution, and spewing rubbish about everything not Indian. You're a very rude guest.

Ennis, can we hit the troll now please? Please?

PLEASE?

One has to wonder about the reason for these erotic carvings depicting various sex acts. I strongly suspect that they were meant to advertise the sexual services available in the Temple grounds.

WTH! You have any reasons/studies/etc for your 'strong suspicion' or are we just taking shots in the dark? I tried digging up a little on this and found this

Anna, we had a disagreement a long while ago (dunno if you remember). I didn't know the history of this blog back then and also had no idea of the kind of blatant misogyny that exists on the Web, else I would have kept shut that day. To be honest, I am not a v great fan of your posts, they are slightly too personal for me, but there's nothing you have done to deserve the kind of disgusting trollery and personal attacks you regularly get. I deeply empathize with you: here's hoping you keep blogging despite all this...bullshit :) .

PG(#108), your comment is more telling of American homophobia than it is of India. I guess Borat had a point after all.

My male friends and I hug whenever we meet. I used to do it when I was single, and also now that I have a girlfriend, so no longer weird due to 'suppression of my natural human instincts'. Though of course we'd never do it in a public place in the US, cos Americans are too stuck up.

As for the word bullshit, even my mom uses it, and its pretty much the only cuss word she allows herself. Everything that's taboo in the US doesn't have to be taboo in India. India has 350 million english speakers: quite enough to let us make our own rules.

kathkavi, you really are an ABCD wannabe. You are hanging around these abusive ABCDs like a good dog. It is also possible that you are one of those FOB parents of ABCD offspring. I guess FOBs like you are so overwhelmed by "gratitude" and the desire to be a "polite guest" that they become servile sycophants and rollover and do tricks for the "hosts". You sound like an archetypal H1B indentured slave - the kind that is responsible for the spinelessness of the Indian community in the US. "Please master, let me live my life like a good dog." I see the mexican lobby, I see the jewish lobby, hell, there is even an Chinese lobby. But Indians? "Please master, tell me when to rollover and play dead." Typical Indian middle-class mentality. Like the apolitical, I-am-happy-to-just-be-here-and-dont-want-anything-else FOB parents of these ABCDs here.

So why did I come to the US? Because I was invited stupid. Why was I invited? Because education is a multi-million dollar industry and foreign students are the biggest consumers. Foreign students drive the tech industry which forms the backbone of US economy. Really, are you so stupid that you don't realize that simple truth? Don't you realize that US is a capitalist country and that you get nothing for free in the US? Do you really think that the US would do anybody a favour? The American Dream is one of the biggest myths ever created. What we are seeing on this blog are the casualties of the American Dream. I was young and naive when I was fooled into buying it.

And for God's sake, grow a spine. Learn to stand up for your rights. Nobody is doing you a favor. And for your indentured servitude, you do get the freedom to bitch and moan once in a while. If you feel obligated to keep singing praises of your white salesmen 24/7, then thats your problem. But don't expect me to join in your bhajans. Me, I know exactly what my contributions are - and I know that the salesmen know it too. The salesmen are not stupid. And they are masters of their trade. They are gettin' a darned good deal in my case. You on the other hand, sound like a lick-spittle of the US government - someone living off handouts provided by them.

You are getting weirder by the post, Mr. Loony/Dining+Philosopher.

I guess FOBs like you are so overwhelmed by "gratitude" and the desire to be a "polite guest" that they become servile sycophants and rollover and do tricks for the "hosts".

No, I just like to do my own business. When people don't get along because of narrow-mindedness, it interests me enough to interfere. So how come we never hear anything coming out of "FOBs" like you who are so inflated with your own self-worth and contempt for decadent Western culture? I mean, since you're so above everyone in the country, shouldn't be making the headlines by now?

So why did I come to the US? Because I was invited stupid.

No, stupid. You came here to take advantage of opportunity. You begged and paid for your visa, and were mighty thrilled when it came through. No one was going to throw you in jail for declining the 'invitation'. No US company or university was going to sob and cry over you turning them down.

Don't you realize that US is a capitalist country and that you get nothing for free in the US?

Um, yeah. Who wants to live on welfare and charity? Not me. Do you?

I was young and naive when I was fooled into buying it.

What did you buy into? The fanatsy that you can come into the US for charity -- and then rant about how it's not giving poor you anything for free and how you actually have to work for your living, and further, expect no one to call you out on your idiocy?

And for God's sake, grow a spine. Learn to stand up for your rights.

I stand up for my rights fine without your help. I don't take racism or misogyny. On the other hand, I don't go about fabricating notions of racism either. Maybe I have been more fortunate than you, but I have hardly, if ever, encountered racism here.

And yes, I consider myself a guest in any country or region that I am not native to or born in, whether or not I am working for it. If you were a paying guest somewhere that was profitting off your rent -- overcharging you, even -- would you take that as a license to curse at your hosts? If you were that unhappy living there, would you stay and continue to bitch -- wouldn't it be more logical to leave?

Maybe it had something to do with my experience growing up. I encountered worse 'racism' from the North Indians in South India, than I ever have from Americans. You scorn ABCDs for not mispronouncing Sanskrit words -- is that much worse than the northies I knew (mostly immigrants from Bihar and Gujarat in search of a better life down south) who blatantly mispronounced South Indian words, explaining that their accent was superior? Or who went on endless tirades about the discomfort, the food, the people, and the culture of the south -- despite voluntarily moving to and living there?

And for your indentured servitude, you do get the freedom to bitch and moan once in a while.

Actually, guess what, I'm also free to decide whether I'm under indentured servitude or not. Hard for you to fathom, but I love my work, I love what I get to do, and I'm satisfied with my pay. Yes, the country and my employer are getting something out of me, but I certainly wouldn't be here if I wasn't getting my fair share out of it.

If you feel you're under indentured servitude, why don't you first "grow a spine" and get the hell of it? Are so cowardly that you simply rail in blogs about the Whites and Jews, and come Monday, go work for them at a job you seemingly feel that you've been forced into? Or wait... maybe you don't want to freed of your job! Maybe you would be miserable if fired or kicked out of your university. So how 'indentured' is that?

If I'm going to bitch and moan, I'd rather do it for things that are genuinely moan-worthy, rather than whether ABCDs pronounce 'samosas' correctly or not. As you can see, some people like their life too much to waste their time on cursing everyone triviality.

Me, I know exactly what my contributions are - and I know that the salesmen know it too. The salesmen are not stupid. And they are masters of their trade. They are gettin' a darned good deal in my case.

Well, stop giving them the darned good deal, if you think it's unfair. How does standing up to your rights as an employee have anything to do with whatever else you've been saying?

wow, diningtroll is truly revolutionary but gangsta

*sarcastic applause*

your self-hate is impressively complex.

Response to someol'guy at 103 (apologies; i didn't read much of anything in between):

By tenor I meant the tone, not the substance, of 74. Let's put substance aside for a moment. The tone was caustic. The comment that is, I have no comment on the speaker. By supporting caustic comments you encourage these bad faith comments, also known as troll comments. That your opinions were not entirely applicable to the post in question only further feeds the caustic troll. Threads meander, such is their nature. But when one commenter would steer it astray, the community should bring it back and 74 was going down a dark path.

I can understand your concerns with this 'community.' Indeed the community, both bloggers and commentators, are actively grappling with this growing pains. Perhaps you didn't realize this, but the bloggers have been catching a lot of flack (i've wielded my fair share) for perceived inconsistencies. SM is a work in progress, a communal work in progress. From what I can tell, SM began as something small and intimate with personal connections and benefits-of-doubt. With popularity, SM is outgrowing than comfort zone and surely we all remember the clumsiness of puberty. So have some patience. We want to learn and we're interested in our heritage. If we falter, please, correct us. But causticity like 74 and subsequent have no place in community. Surely, you can recognize that.

I just went through diningtrolls blog. *Alarm bells*. Two important questions to you : which university do you attend ? Do you have a gun ?

#128 (dipesh), I had the same thought when I read it, sadly.

1. Please God let there be background checks to keep dining-philosopher from buying a gun.
2. You ABCDs need a seriiious dose of Zeest. Haven't any of you listened to "Sutta"?
3. I seem to remember all of America getting worked up about a nipple at the Super Bowl despite the prevalence of nipples all over the place. Wossup wizzat? How can you people be so hypocritical? Oh, and Valentine's Day is against our culture. Our epics celebrate fucking, not pansying around with flowers and chocolates.

back to the post...

While in India, I've noticed that bullshit or shit was never given the same degree of censure that other words were given. In school, several of the male teachers were notorious for using the words bloody and bullshit. Nor were students shy about saying shit in front of older lady teachers if it came up in conversation. Like all things in India, whats ok with one part of the population will not be ok with others, but generally shit and bullshit has a higher acceptance rate in public use than any euphemisms related to sex or genitalia. It could be related to the Indian penchant for a little discretion when it come to all matters sex related.

FYI, misogyny on the web:

A female freelance writer who blogged about the pornography industry was threatened with rape. A single mother who blogged about "the daily ins and outs of being a mom" was threatened by a cyber-stalker who claimed that she beat her son and that he had her under surveillance. Kathy Sierra, who won a large following by blogging about designing software that makes people happy, became a target of anonymous online attacks that included photos of her with a noose around her neck and a muzzle over her mouth. [Link]

There is a whole WaPo article about it today.

@loony-dining (#114)

a) compliment, not complement

b) I am not in a fight with anyone, as you seem to think.

c) While I will continue to maintain that I share some of your discomfiture with some of the stuff on here, I think we differ radically in our general perspectives, as well as some of the particularities of what causes us discomfort here. Basically, I'm trying to stop you from giving me any 'compliments', as it sort of freaks me out. However much I may disagree with some of the posters on here, I do think I have more common ground with them than with you.

@Espressa (#126): Well, I was talking about content, or perhaps 'what drove the content', not tone or general beliefs, though it is not my business to police others' tone, nor should it be: I try merely to keep my comments civil and engaged, and cannot do more than that, so that if I happen to agree with something that was said rudely, but that I think had merit aside from its tone, I do not think I should be barred from saying so. By the way, why do you always speak in the first-person plural 'we try... we mess up.. etc' when referring to the SM posters? Am I, as a non-authentic-ABD ;) automatically excluded from being part of this 'community'? Just wondering.

Our epics celebrate fucking, not pansying around with flowers and chocolates

I hope the fucking was set up by flowers and chocolates.

I hope the fucking was set up by flowers and chocolates.

The general question of the attitude of ABDs to various things about India which embarrass, repulse, or otherwise disturb them is an interesting one, that is probably worth reflecting on. SM would be an interesting place for this to happen, if it were to be done with honesty and a willingness to look within, but I suspect that this might be too uncomfortable for many Mutineers to take on. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, though.

someol'guy: You always have the option of looking through the 3 years of material already generated on this blog to get a sense of who the community is and what has preoccupied them, and how, at various stages, which might serve either to confirm or alter your ideas.

People, take a deep breath and count 1 to 10.

Like most FOBs here, I used to get frustrated with some of the posts. Once I looked in to the bloggers hearts ( I have magical powers), I realised there is no malicious intent. They are just ebil :)

Like most FOBs here, I used to get frustrated with some of the posts. Once I looked in to the bloggers hearts ( I have magical powers), I realised there is no malicious intent.

It is a slow but sure process, a matter of time. You will be a convert soon. It is all about mimicry, foreign onomatopoeia (pah, eh?, oops, whoa), habit formation, a burning desire to 'belong', and a remarkable haste to 'jettison' your past. The fact that there are no ABCD blogs in their 'mother tongues' (pls let me know if there are any), and Assamese, Bengali, Gujarati, Hindustani, Malayali, Marathi, Oriya, Punjabi, Tamil, Telugu ABCDs have dumbed down their distinctive richnesses to accommodate a lowest common denominator is worth noting.

Beware of the free floating cosmopolitans. US has nothing to lose, but India has its classical gharanas, paintings, languages, dialects, stories, architecture, designs, dress styles, food, drinks, stitching patterns, local knowledge systems, folk songs ... so lovingly created through centuries.

Dining Philosopher, you need to be calm down, probably become an entrepreneur. Be a creator, think what you can do rather than pointing out what others can't do. Yoga comes from the Sanskrit root 'yuj', which means 'to unite' or 'join'. That is an antithesis of the independent western self that commonly experiences socially disengaged emotions (pride, boasting, swagger), as opposed to the interdependent eastern self's engaged emotions (empathy, respect, indebtedness). Be positive. Take the good, do not pay attention to the bad. Otherwise you risk being what you hate.

MountainCloud:
Finally a silver lining ..Thankyou Sahab/Memsahab. So much drama over backwas!
It looked like the UP Vidhan Sabha for a while!

The fact that there are no ABCD blogs in their 'mother tongues' (pls let me know if there are any), and Assamese, Bengali, Gujarati, Hindustani, Malayali, Marathi, Oriya, Punjabi, Tamil, Telugu ABCDs have dumbed down their distinctive richnesses to accommodate a lowest common denominator is worth noting.

That's because for the vast majority of so-called "ABCD"s (you could have said "2nd gen" or "ABD"), ENGLISH IS THEIR MOTHER TONGUE. You know, because they were born here? Babies don't have much say in how they were raised, so aim your ire at those who made such linguistic choices not at us. But then, insulting our parents would make you rude. Besides, I know IBDs from India who can't write or read Tamil, Malayalam, Hindi. And they blog in English. Why aren't you insulting them?

What's with all the "ABCD"-bashing on this thread? Did you notice that the abuse seems to be flowing one-way, and it's all aimed at people who were born here?

@Pondatti: Why is any discussion that argues that not everything about the ABD experience is a bed of rose dismissed as 'bashing'? And, given that a fair number of IBDs seem to think that some amount of (un)conscious patronising/condescension is aimed at them by ABDs on this blog, (I, for one, have consistently argued that this may be entirely unconscious, but it's something that many of us feel, and it may be worth those who post here to step back and look inside and ask themselves whether they do harbour certain complicated, perhaps contradictory, feelings about IBDs, the country of origin, etc.), how can you glibly assert that '..it's all aimed at people born here'? Just as you perceive that some 'bashing' is aimed at you or your ilk, so do those on the other side of the birthplace fence. I don't think that either perspective is the only one that is valid, but that both are. It appears that you do. Or do you, in the standard way that most of us instinctively do, only notice what hurts you personally? All I ask is some maturity and a willingness to acknowledge that both sides may have perfectly valid, and not necessarily conflicting, perspectives here. As I said earlier, there are ABDs who abhor IBDs, IBDs who abhor ABDs, and those from both sides who get along and appreciate the differences in each others' perspectives, experiences, etc.

Wow, all this venom thrown around b/c a blogger asked a question ;

I for one am better-informed after reading the comments that stated that "bullshit" isn't considered a cuss word in India. Thanks for those who live in India or grew up there who answered it politely for me. I always wondered why some of my family used shit, but wouldn't dare use a malyalee cuss word.

Also cultural relativity is overvalued. I'm so glad anthro has moved out of that realm and people have courage to say, "that's wrong," w/o bigotry.

You want to know the origins of "BULL SHIT", go here.

What's with all the "ABCD"-bashing on this thread? Did you notice that the abuse seems to be flowing one-way, and it's all aimed at people who were born here?

because FOBs think/believe they are superior beings compared to morally corrupt ABDs ;)

You know I hate the word FOB

I used to use it as a way to identify. But then I realized the word has definitely been appropriated by patronizing people - people with self-hate. So I've stopped using it b/c it can so easily be misunderstood.

Why is any discussion that argues that not everything about the ABD experience is a bed of rose dismissed as 'bashing'?

Have you read "Dining"'s comments? That's total bashing. Beyond that, what I quoted about condemning ABCDs for NOT blogging in their parents' mother tongue is ridiculously unreasonable. So that feels like bashing, too...and unlike the bile spewed by "Dining", I listen sincerely to such comments, because they are being made articulately and in civil fashion.

And, given that a fair number of IBDs seem to think that some amount of (un)conscious patronising/condescension is aimed at them by ABDs on this blog,

But...a fair amount don't. I don't think any of us can speak for all of us. I also think it's worth remembering that people on your team pointed out that once they spent some time here, they didn't necessarily feel so insulted. My question is, are you coming at this discussion after being here for three weeks, three months or three years? I only ask because I think the majority of these comment-battles exist because people who haven't been here for a very long time decide to make assumptions and declarations they shouldn't, for lack of historical context.

Someol'guy asked:

Why is any discussion that argues that not everything about the ABD experience is a bed of rose dismissed as 'bashing'?

Look at the language used - it's not the questioning of the ABD experience that makes it bashing, it's the way its put:

Assamese, Bengali, Gujarati, Hindustani, Malayali, Marathi, Oriya, Punjabi, Tamil, Telugu ABCDs have dumbed down their distinctive richnesses to accommodate a lowest common denominator is worth noting.

I had met some ignorant ABCDs in real life but I had no idea it was so prevalent among you that, indeed, it is the defining aspect of your (ABCD) community. Yes, you are defined by self-loathing and loathing of your parents and perhaps by your love of coloured contacts.

I want people to explain things I don't understand. That's why I'm here. But when people start putting me down as an ABD, that's boring and I tune them out. Most of the time, that's what sadly happens when there is a comment about ABDs in general or how ABDs on this blog behave.

Consider my water post - somebody came on and just started saying something along the lines of this is what I expect from stupid ABDs. They didn't explain what they thought was right or wrong about the post, they were just upset that I had written a post about the water problem in India and had mentioned a few groups that were trying to address it. This is why I find sweeping generalizations about IBDs and ABDs to be not useful (btw, the problem with IBDs is that it's not as broad in its coverage as FOBs, it leaves out PBDs, BBDs, NBDs and SLBDs).

By the way, why do you always speak in the first-person plural 'we try... we mess up.. etc' when referring to the SM posters? Am I, as a non-authentic-ABD ;) automatically excluded from being part of this 'community'? Just wondering.

Ha! It helps calm me down when I'm frustrated. Communal sentiments are soothing, and of course you're a part of it. And that's my point, we're all part of this amorphous blob and causticity spreads quickly. Not to keep on and on with this redundancy, but I do think it is our collective responsibility to quarantine that shit. Leave the gun, take the canonli.

You know I hate the word FOB

brown_fob is now officially brown_desi.
Thanks :)

btw, the problem with IBDs is that it's not as broad in its coverage as FOBs, it leaves out PBDs, BBDs, NBDs and SLBDs).

that's pretty funny ( but what do those acronyms mean - i was trying to guess?)

That may be, but I've encountered too many people who use FOB in a denigrating way, so I identify "IBDs" in different ways. I don't want anyone to think I'm putting them down in anyway.

Pakistani Born, Bangladeshi Born, Nepali Born, Sri Lankan born ...

Maybe ABDs and FBDs would work - foreign born desis? Or DBDs? Desh born desis?

Anybody steal one of those Coachella hoses? :-)

FWIW, I have no problem being called an ABCD. I am confused. Not about my desiness, but sure, I'll cop to confusion.

Oh right, got it.

I think FBD works best, b/c there may be people who identify as desis but were born or raised in Africa or other regions... then again they may not identify with SABD (south asian born desis)

OK, OK, why do all the acronyms asume that the D in question is living in Amreeka yaar?

PBDs, BBDs, NBDs and SLBDs..

hehehe, I thought 'Punjab-born, Bengal-born, ... and then I couldn't figure out N and SL.

Ennis: Your point is taken, I don't think I and some of the others trying to have a sane discussion about this are the 'venemous' ones. Yes, some of the rhetoric being bandied around is pretty nasty, and I think best ignored. Didn't read your 'water' post, so don't know about the reactions to that, but what you quote just sounds worth ignoring.

OK, OK, why do all the acronyms asume that the D in question is living in Amreeka yaar?

Isnt this mostly an american blog? (no disrespect to any of you in other countries)

Well since we are on this topic, just curious, have the powers that be at Sepia ever considered having a mix of non ABD (I guess lot of people don't like the word FOB) and ABD writers? Or maybe you guys have and I missed that, but a few days back an email Abhi sent to the OC journo mentioned that all the writers here are ABD and that this is a purely American blog with readers from different places. So far I have read this blog and assumed the intent was to highlight SA issues here and when it matters to the ABD people, highlight issues in SA. For that purpose it is perfectly reasonable to have all your writers ABD.

However, over time I have noticed that the writers do highlight issues which are purely Indian (or Pakistani, etc) and it's direct relevance to ABDs is not there except to those who do want to know more about South Asian issues in South Asia. Or like Ennis and Anna have shown right here, they are definitely interested in learning more about the matrubhoomi - and thats really great of you guys. If the purpose was to restrict this blog to ABD issues, the current mix makes a lot of sense but if the purpose was or has gradually expanded to understand SA itself, then it may help to have a mix of writers - some more in tune with ABD centric issues and others (who probably would be 1.5ers or FBD types) more in tune with SA.

Of course it all depends on what you guys want this blog to be. So far given your constraints you guys do a great job and this is a very interesting blog - it has definitely helped me as a non ABD to understand brown issues in the US and ABDs as a community much better.

I want people to explain things I don't understand. That's why I'm here.

But most of the questions themselves are loaded. In other words, some questions can only be generated in a particular culture, in this case the US culture. From the Indian perspective many of the question are ill-posed and any attempt to answer such questions ends up bracketing Indians within a framework that does not actually exist in India. The culture is misrepresented by the simple fact of asking the question and further in answering the question. DBD's end up taking these questions seriously because there is a tacit acceptance of the fact that people from the US somehow know what they're talking about.

Further, no matter which way you cut it, the constant questioning about India most definitely comes across as condescending. Everything you question turns out to be less morally repugnant in the US than in India by a long shot. Naturally, because both sides use American standards. To me it doesn't look like people really care to understand whatever the heck is happening back in the desh as much as they sort of feel an urgency to establish that they themselves are morally above it all.

I think Divya in 157 hits it on the head. There have been instances where the questions have been loaded and trying to understand is a cover. It may also be because the situations in question give rise to loaded questions. As it is oft times repeated, it is a site with ABD perspective, the education may also be for the other ABDs.

Isnt this mostly an American blog?

Since someone made all you guys the boss over lunch (I am still waiting for the memo), what would my blog be? Everyone over there is FOB, well at least a while ago, but we are based here in the US. So what are we?

And to answer your questions about ABCD's and my reasons about why there should be no C in ABCD, here is a post I wrote a LONG time ago, it was written with something else in mind, but sure it applies to our topic of discussion.

Besides, I know IBDs from India who can't write or read Tamil, Malayalam, Hindi. And they blog in English. Why aren't you insulting them?

Since someone made all you guys the boss over lunch (I am still waiting for the memo), what would my blog be? Everyone over there is FOB, well at least a while ago, but we are based here in the US. So what are we?

not trying to be boss. i c ur point..

P

they sort of feel an urgency to establish that they themselves are morally above it all.

It sounds like you don't like the fact that we're sarcastic and you mistake our lack of respect for sacred cows for a presumed moral superiority.

Or maybe you're uncomfortable about the fact that we make judgments, and don't come to the topic of India (although nobody complains when we blog about Pakistan this way) with a humble attitude.

It's also interesting that I rarely see you comment on the more empirical posts I have written on India. Those seem to go unnoticed.

The culture is misrepresented by the simple fact of asking the question and further in answering the question.

We are Americans. We question everything, and we are sarcastic about everything. If our questioning is a bad thing, there isn't much we can do about that. It is, however, something we do on both sides of the ocean. There is plenty of celebration and criticism to go around, we just don't place anything or one on a pedestal.

Since someone made all you guys the boss over lunch (I am still waiting for the memo), what would my blog be? Everyone over there is FOB, well at least a while ago, but we are based here in the US. So what are we?

ABCI? Amreekan based confused Indians.

And to answer your questions about ABCD's and my reasons about why there should be no C in ABCD, here is a post I wrote a LONG time ago, it was written with something else in mind, but sure it applies to our topic of discussion.

Karthik is my new hero.

It sounds like you don't like the fact that we're sarcastic and you mistake our lack of respect for sacred cows for a presumed moral superiority.

Is this meant to be sarcastic? You're right, I don't like sarcasm. Do you? As for the sacred cows bit, not sure if you're trying to be insulting or you think it's funny, but I wonder how many Indians you've met in your life who go about talking about sacred cows.

It's also interesting that I rarely see you comment on the more empirical posts I have written on India. Those seem to go unnoticed.

The explanation is quite banal. I comment only one one post generally and keep up with that. I have no idea how people deal with multiple posts, nor do I read all the posts, nor do I read SM every day. Perhaps your so-called empirical posts were not of any interest to me, or stuff I had no knowledge about.

We are Americans. We question everything, and we are sarcastic about everything. If our questioning is a bad thing, there isn't much we can do about that. It is, however, something we do on both sides of the ocean. There is plenty of celebration and criticism to go around, we just don't place anything or one on a pedestal.

As if your being american has anything to do with the fact that you question rather than the type of questions you ask. That's precisely what was being pointed out. How conveniently you missed the point. Please also note this is not meant to be a complaint of any sort. Just pointing out how SM comes across to *some* of us. There's no need to go around flinging sacred cows in response.

Is this meant to be sarcastic? You're right, I don't like sarcasm. Do you? As for the sacred cows bit, not sure if you're trying to be insulting or you think it's funny, but I wonder how many Indians you've met in your life who go about talking about sacred cows.

Do you even know what sacred cow means?

Sacred cow.

The explanation is quite banal. I comment only one one post generally and keep up with that.

Then...don't make vast judgments about the entire blog, when you yourself just admitted that you read "one post" generally.

Just pointing out how SM comes across to *some* of us.

...which is starting to seem more like a very vocal *few* of you vs. any sort of critical mess.

not trying to be boss. i c ur point..

P

Sorry if I came off too harsh.

If our questioning is a bad thing, there isn't much we can do about that

What I do not understand is this, when I ask(ed) an ABD about McGuyver or Jump the ship, references that IBD's would not know, they did not look at me like I was crazy or ever make statements to that effect. They patiently went on to explain what they knew. I am sure most of us IBD's have been there.

So why are we subjecting them (ABD's) to this?

ABCI? Amreekan based confused Indians.

Karthik 159,
In regards to your post, the only correction I would add as a former PIGS is the condecending nature one has to deal with when dealing with ABCD's. I've found classical whites more respectfully curious as compared to ABCD's. Unfortunately there's is that residual snort and snicker, that they are unable to hide eloquently. They seem to forget that we were born with superior profiling and bigotist skills, honed and perfected through years of conditioning. Machan, me thinks all of this discussion takes us nowhere. We are east and they are west and never the twain shall meet. There is no need to meet. Its better off that we dont meet. Like good shayari, its the language and mode of delivery that creates a mood. Can you tell me how to explain Nazakat to people in English? A chuckle for someone is a rude term for another!

I've found classical whites more respectfully curious as compared to ABCD's. Unfortunately there's is that residual snort and snicker, that they are unable to hide eloquently...We are east and they are west and never the twain shall meet. There is no need to meet. Its better off that we dont meet.

And yet, this ABCD almost exclusively dates erstwhile PIGs/IBDs. There is plenty of need to meet. And not all of us snort and snicker, but thanks for generalizing.

Also...classical whites?? As opposed to modern ones?

And yet, this ABCD almost exclusively dates erstwhile PIGs/IBDs.

More power to you, Anna, but I'm sure even you would acknowledge this puts you in a tiny minority of ABD women. I salute and applaud your efforts to bridge the 'ABCD'-'FOB' divide, both in your personal life and through this blog, and see it as a very worthwhile end to pursue.

Eventually things will converge enough culturally, and on other issues, between the two groups, and technology might make that happen even faster than it already is happening. There are a lot of encouraging signs. Meanwhile, on the way there, we're going to have some bumps on the road.

SM being an American blog, just by being what it is, how it is, seems to be rubbing some people the wrong way. Don't apologize or explain too much, be strong in your convictions, draw strength from others who see things your way (and there are many of us), and things will turn out all right. Take heart above all, that even people who don't see things quite your way still do come here and care enough to post their opinions. They will be educated!

ALMD- As a matter of fact I did know that meaning of sacred cow, but the way Ennis used it was more of a jibe than anything else.

Sarcasmo - I did not say I read only one post generally. Take your own advice and don't jump to conclusions when you have no idea what you're talking about.

but the way Ennis used it was more of a jibe than anything else.

It did not seem that way to me. I saw it more as a figure of speech.

We are east and they are west and never the twain shall meet. There is no need to meet. Its better off that we dont meet.

No, in ABDs and people like me (born in India, grew up in the West since I was 2) the east and west meet and propagate. I could never, in my sense of identity, take out the indian or south asian with my american. I really disagree with those IBDs or FBDs who act like India or South Asia has nothing to do with the rest of us.

And I do often find myself looking to India and Indian-things to get a better understanding of myself. Why shouldn't I? For the rest of my life my parents' Indian culture has and will shape my American life. When I visit my grandmother's home in Kerala, I've often felt more welcomed there than I have in my own bedroom. I surprisingly find myself articulating things in my head in malayalam, but am forced to speak in English, b/c my tongue can't construct the malyalee sounds; and it doesn't come off right in my English vocab. --- that's very symbolic of how east and west ARE in every ABD or AB-raised-D.

Unfortunately there's is that residual snort and snicker, that they are unable to hide eloquently.

I am yet to come across one and personally, I think this has a lot to do with ones ego and confidence levels. Thinking about it in another angle, at least they tell you how they feel. The people you talk of (IBD's) seem to hide their true feelings. I would rather be told that someone does not like me for whatever than sugar coat things.

Machan, me thinks all of this discussion takes us nowhere. We are east and they are west and never the twain shall meet. There is no need to meet. Its better off that we dont meet

Machan, I am sorry that you feel that way da. If I were to stick to what you say, I would have never met so many wonderful people in my life, I would not have found THE girl, I would not have gotten trashed a million times and I certainly would not have expected to get home safely every single one of those times.

Forget ABD's, I would trust my life in the hands of some of my American friends, people who would do almost anything for me. They do not look at me as a Desi. They see what I see in them, a friend. It boils down to respect, you give it and you get it back. Granted there will always be exceptions, but we are talking about the majority.

If you further generalize your statement, we should not be talking to anyone but IBD's, not even American Americans. This will eventually mean that our "borders" will be closed and our knowledge of the world would be non-existent. I am probably going to get flamed for this, but the lack of education, the lack of exposure to other cultures, I think is one of the reasons many religious countries look the way they do, at the west.

Can you tell me how to explain Nazakat to people in English? A chuckle for someone is a rude term for another!

I agree with the chuckle, terms will differ, but just because you and I cannot come up with a way to explain Nazakat, does not mean that we should not try. I for one want to feel that I gave it my best shot.

Take heart above all, that even people who don't see things quite your way still do come here and care enough to post their opinions.

So far so good!

They will be educated!

Doh, so the DBD who does not see things 'your/their way' needs to be educated? Chachaji, usually I like what you write and even this comment is good except the last bit. Didn't you just give more ammo to the condescending claim?

Kathakavi;

America is a country of extreme contrasts.

A country of contrasts yes, extreme? I would say more subtle than India, one reason for that may be bigger space and less people. The contrasts of India are in your face all the time just because so many of them are packed tightly in a smaller space.

No gay rights but non-mutual sexual harrassment "tolerated".

Some gay rights, and non-mutual sexual harrassment NOT tolerated or just accepted as "the way it is". Not even in the 'hood, really.

Affection between same-sex close friends is restrained, but dating couples who barely know each other hold hands and walking in an arm-in-arm embrace right, left and center.

Yep! And I luuuuuurve holding hands.

I came to the conclusion that the culture has issues with same gender touching only. Opposite gender touching is accepted and non-mutual touching (i.e. sexual harrassment) is tolerated.

Wrong conclusion. While "too much" same gender touching will appear "gay" to most Americans, non-mutual touching, sexual harrassment is not tolerated. However, opposite gender touching, within reason (hand-holding, simple hugging and kissing, is indeed accepted. Again, a generalization which applies to most of the small towns I've seen. Some urban centers and rural villages may be different and totally open to young lovers of the same gender walking while hugging each other in the same way that these small towns are open to two strangers of the different genders doing that.

No value judgement on those couples. It's understandable why they do it.

I would hope so.

America's gay culture is still restricted to it's urban centers.

Generally that is true.

So Amitabh what was the point of linking that video in # 116? In the song, Delhi is supposed to be the symbol of power or oppression or some such. The discussion on this thread was veering into Delhi - the physical city. And why qualify your comment with a disclaimer? I know you subscribe to the conspiracy theory that Hindu Khatris ( whatever that means ) in Bollywood are working round the clock to make Sikhs look bad or like clowns or whatever. And you don't have to understand Punjabi to get the tirade he is belting. Basic Hindi will do.

The song is an anti-Hindu tract disguised as an artist's heart-wrenching call to arms against the Dilli ki Sarkar( ironically headed by a turbaned Sikh ). So Sikhs are forced to leave their beloved Punjab and emigrate to foreign lands by the rampant unemployment engineered by the government of India? And who was forcing Sikhs to flee Punjab before there was an Indian government in Delhi? Sikhs like Gujaratis and other entrepreneural and intrepid communities have been leaving their homelands for greener pastures since more than a hundred years ago. Punjab has consistently been either the richest or one of the richest states in India. Unemployment and poverty have been a much bigger problem in other states. So lately Punjab has lost the edge to southern and western states not because the government favored those states over Punjab but because Punjab's own various Sikh dominated governments failed to move the state from just an agricultural economy to a more High Tech one. But railing against the Punjab government would require showing some turbaned villains instead of some tika-festooned Hindu netas, lawyers and policewallahs as the evildoers. Btw the latter two would look so out of place in Sikh-majority Punjab. But verisimilitude is not the purpose in this video. Inciting hate and resurrecting Khalistan is, what with the desultory references to the storming of Akal Takht and 1984 riots. If anything the state of Punjab has, because of its vocal and aggressive lobbying, got more from the central government than most other really deserving states. For example the lopsided benefits to Punjab from the Indira Gandhi Canal which was meant to alleviate the misery of north Rajasthan. Now even locals in that region have been displaced by Sikh farmers from the north ( Punjab ).

An SM commenter posted a link to the 2007 Sikh Day parade. Interestingly the original posting was at sikhnet.org. This site is the prominent Sikh presence online. Their discussion forums which by the way are supposedly moderated are full of hateful language, delusions of ethnic superiority besides generally inane comments in atrocious English. In one thread most commenters are coming up with ways to discourage the ' taking' of Sikh girls by Muslim boys. So I went to the Sikh Day parade. While they were serving free food to everyone ( very commendable ) just a few yards away an officially sanctioned man on mic was ranting against India, calling the murderer of innocents -Bhindranwale - a martyr and a lot of other hateful things. This went on for the most part of the official program. I thought this happened in certain extremist-infested parts of Canada only. Was this an occasion to celebrate hate? I have listened to similar diatribe in two East Coast Gurudwaras. Won't even leave a place of worship alone. And I know Hindus who have stopped visiting Gurudwaras because of that. Hindus have made several films and witten hundreds of articles about the plight of Sikhs in 1984. Why are Sikhs so loath to airing their own dirty laundry? Why not write about the wanton killings of minority Hindus in Punjab, the bombings of bazaars and buses in Delhi, the militarization of Golden Temple among other thing, in the years leading upto the Indian Army's takeover of Golden Temple? Is it because the threat from Sikh extremists is very real? The last person to write against Sikh extremism- Tara Singh Hayer - was murdered in Canada.

Doh, so the DBD who does not see things 'your/their way' needs to be educated? Chachaji, usually I like what you write and even this comment is good except the last bit. Didn't you just give more ammo to the condescending claim?

Ardy, thanks for the compliment! Yes, they will be educated, whether they choose to converge to SM's point of view remains to be seen :) Of course, SM will also be educated, so the convergence could be a two-way process. 'We will all be educated'.

I guess writing your thoughts in a precis form can be misinterpreted very easily.
Anna: I did not generalize anything but merely stated my own experience. Kudos to you if you can identify with/date, understand the "kind" that is us. I thank you for considering us worthy to be pursued or spoken to. You and I know thats not a fair statement, but we can always play this rehtoric and it would get us nowhere. FYI :"Classical" whites are the typical "WASP" that I tend to meet/met in daily life.
Those modern ones you talk of are rare ! If they can point to Fallujah properly then its all good. Otherwise ..chodo yaar..Gas prices are 3.00 a gallon. GOD bless America and the Coalition of the Willing. Namaste, thankyou come again! Would you like some Nachos with your Big Gulp sar?

Karthik ,
I think you miss understood what I said :"East and West and never the twain shall meet". Its always in an ideological sense. Ground realities being what they are, this entire 150 odd posts would not be necessary nah! (Not trying to shield some really warped stuff said by the FOB's).
Also, this does not apply to personal relationships that get honed over time. I never said I stopped trying da. I talk to everybody, but without that "apniyath". Somehow, "wot up" is not the same as kya ho raha hai bandhu?/Enna maplai, eppdi poirkinge? Been there with that trashing part. No qualms about that! I've never given up hope. But sometimes the radar picks up stuff that you really don't want to hear from another brown ! Somehow I seem to get along well with more "fellow foreigners (visa holders) " than natives. Must be the luck of the draw!

PS
I get what you are saying my friend. I do find myself tongue tied too. English is many a time, just too coarse a language to get the meaning across.

Here's an interesting column that talks about some of what has been exercising people on this site. It's written by recently-relocated-to-India ABD Sanghamitra Kalita, who writes for the new HT business paper on her back-to-desh move.

http://www.livemint.com/2007/04/27001311/Lost-in-translation.html

I really like that she's self-reflective enough to recognise her in-built biases and be open and honest about them, instead of dismissing any suggestion that she might have these underlying biases with attempted sarcasm (which, we are then informed is more difficult for some of us to understand because of where we were born, oh, or that somehow 'being american is to question everything (really? and to be indian is somehow to follow, sheep-like, in the path of received wisdom? yes, yes, i know you're trying to be funny - but the choice of how people choose to attempt humour is often quite revealing about them), or claims that those who see them 'need to be educated', or some other such response that trivializes the issue at hand.

Here are a couple of extracts:

A few weeks ago, when everything was going horribly wrong, as three information-technology specialists huddled around my computer, as they assured the infamous “five minutes”, I snapped.
“Oh (expletive). What the hell kind of country is this?! What tech boom?”
“Hey,” called a voice one cubicle over. “We love our country.”
She then laughed, this kind co-worker, letting me know she wasn’t entirely offended. Just enough to shut me up.
Eventually my email worked and I, a New York-born child of Indian immigrants, stopped blaming a nation of one billion for my computer woes. But I pondered my slip and wondered if my colleagues thought they had seen my true colours, the red, white and blue ones that exude superiority.

.....

Fearful of my own perceptions, internal and external, I headed to the offices of relocation agency Global Adjustments in Gurgaon—for some straight talk.
I recounted my day of rage, which started with a power outage, a late driver and a snarled commute to work. Vice-president Preeti Bindra nodded understandingly, but I knew she’d heard this countless times before.
“Then I said, something like, um … uh …well, I said: ‘What kind of country is this?’”
I toned myself down and dropped the cursing. I smiled.
Bindra stopped smiling. “You said what?”
“I don’t know what I was thinking. It just came out.”
“Well, I’ll tell you what your office was thinking,” she said, now starting to look humoured. “Just who does she think she is?”
Sitting next to Bindra, cultural trainer Ruchika Srivastava piped in: “And they also probably thought, ‘She’s an Indian, too.’”
As if to make me feel better, she assured, “NRI clients are among the most difficult.”
Bindra nodded: “They are neither here, nor there. They feel they are not Indian any more and then the other times, they think they know it all.”
Yeah, I deserved all that.
But the agency imparted some hope, too. Over the last two years, Global Adjustments has seen a surge in expatriates trying to understand Indians and work on their terms. “We’re meeting halfway now,” Bindra said.

Let's try this again...

I wonder why you like that article so much, someol'guy?

Ah, yes. It's about ONE 2nd gen desi who acts in an imperious and obnoxious fashion and yet is treated graciously by the superior inhabitants of our motherland; she sees the error of her arrogant ABCD ways and acknowledges they are inferior, via "self-reflection". She receives grace through the patient forgiveness of those who compassionately understand that it's teh "C" in ABCD which is the root cause for the essayist's evil ways. If only we all did the same, right?

Sometimes, an article is just about one brat, not an entire generation.

It's not that people here are in denial or think they are flawless or don't want to be introspective; it's just that it is nearly impossible to do that in a space where people on "the other side" are going to jump down our throats with the "HA! I knew it/told you so"-reactions. Who wants to be vulnerable when threatened with that?

That's ridiculous, Pondatti. Thanks for trying to second-guess the reasons for my posting SMK's article (btw, as former South Asia hand at the WaPo, and now editor of the biggest new business daily in India, I'm sure she'd love your description of her as an 'imperious, obnoxious.. brat' :-). And for your sarcasm about my supposed motives. FYI, I'm about as far from the 'gracious-motherland'-obsessed Desi as it is possible to be: you know nothing about me, so please don't insult everyone's intelligence, including your own, by trying to think that you do. So far, I've resisted your continuous barbs, but this really crosses the line.

By the way: I actually found the response of one of the people quoted in the article, who says the thing about 'NRIS ... they are neither here, nor there. They feel they are not Indian any more and then the other times, they think they know it all.” quite reductive. But oh, no, I'm supposed to be thinking of her as some sort of paragon of Desi graciousness. Bleh.

Incidentally, the woman who wrote the article is a former WaPo journo who wrote about South Asia for quite a while, and is now the Deputy Editor (I think) of the new HT business paper, and her column *is* meant to be representative, not of all desis or ABDs, but of people such as herself who are trying to make the undoubtedly difficult move to India, which as we all know, can be a pretty infuriating environment to work in. Do you really think it's that uncommon for someone to lose their cool and say what she did? ABD or IBD, I don't think so. What was interesting to me was that she and the other women picked up on the fact that it was not just what she said (which I've heard random uncles and aunts in India say a hundred times) but that the perception of it would be coloured by her American-ness, and that perhaps her American-ness was in some part responsible for her particular outburst (there, I'm not sure I agree - as I said, I've heard the same said a million times by Indians who live in India - except they don't have to deal with having to be told to 'go back to where you came from', which a foreigner might.

Perhaps if you had a little more ... I hesitate to say intelligence, but maybe maturity is a reasonable word, you would try to read things with an open mind instead of instantly classifying them into the little boxes your mind has apparently constructed into which everything must fit neatly.

Why the instant defensiveness? Why can someone's experience not be offered up (especially when she has done so herself) as an instance of something that may be of more general import? What do you want, estimators of the effect of ABD-ness on (non)brattiness, with heteroskedasticity-adjusted robust standard errors? Jeez.

Hmmm. Ok, you two. To your separate corners.

I happen to be acquainted with Mitra personally, albeit not very well. She's erudite, she's well-spoken, and she's actually very nice in person. I think it takes a certain amount of courage to 'fess up to doing something boneheaded in an article that will be read (and judged) by thousands. Some people will immediately label her arrogant and condescending for her comment.

I would refrain, myself. She's not. She's very thoughtful, and she moved to India for a reason.

Send her an email, I bet she'd be happy to talk to you.

#184: I think it takes a certain amount of courage to 'fess up to doing something boneheaded in an article that will be read (and judged) by thousands.

My point exactly, which is why I posted it.

Why can someone's experience not be offered up (especially when she has done so herself) as an instance of something that may be of more general import?

I wonder this every single time I get attacked on this site. I'm accused of mistaking this for my personal blog, I'm called a narcissist, I'm criticized far more viciously than any of my male bunker mates would be had they posted similar.

The number of you who forwarded me a certain WaPo article with some variation of, "this reminded me of you" was astounding, telling, depressing...and finally, touching. The story rang very true; I choose to focus on how nice it was for you to think of me sympathetically and take the time to email me, to let me know, than how futile the situation actually is.

@ANNA: Maybe you could page Pondatti ;) S/he doesn't like the personal-as-general, at all.

Why can someone's experience not be offered up (especially when she has done so herself) as an instance of something that may be of more general import?

I wonder the same, especially when asked to "back up" my claims. Hello! I backed it up by relaying the experience. If statistical data is more important to you (whoever) - just google it.

I tell you Anna, you and I both are being attacked for being women writing about personal experiences.

Who says data is better than anecdotal evidence anyway?

Let this not be a completely left brained arena of expression

Since it is we, "the Ganguly's," who gave birth to the ABD generation that has come under fire here, I would be remiss if I didn't come to their defense... once again in this thread.

My only question is: why is it so necessary for SM to get India "right," though it does so with amazing frequency? Isn't SM's diaspora-colored take on desi issues its very sensibility, its raison d etre, and its value? Should there really be a generic standards manual housed in Delhi, the way Queens English used to be, that all diasporic groups must adhere to in order to be considered legitimately desi? I enjoy SM precisely because it is so ABD. I like to see "the desh" through the eyes of my children. If I wanted only the Indian version (some would incorrectly call it the correct version), I wouldn't have to go any farther than my own brain and a few India-based blogs.

Of course, if SM bloggers were condescending to IBD's or critical of the desh, then they deserve to be criticized. But if anything, they err on the side of boosterism. They sometimes celebrate certain desi things that people of my generation would consider inconsequential. But that's why I read SM - to find out what a million Indians born and raised here consider consequential about our culture. They err on the side of protectionism. They take offense at some senator's out-of-context remark about 7-11 owners and turn it into a protest blog. These are not people who take their brown-ness and desi-ness lightly. That is very interesting, not to mention, satisfying, to people like me.

My plea to IBD's here is that all of you should try to enjoy the "SM difference." I know you will always infuse SM with your own "IBD difference," which is what a lively blog should do anyway. And a suggestion to ANNA - don't write another blog about a hoarding.

Chanakya
I'm Indian-American,grew up in the Southern US for more than 25 years; When you said this:

East and West and never the twain shall meet".

I talked about how I still, after growing up in the US, still want to express myself in Malayalam. Inside myself the east/west always meets, as in so many others. That has less to do with english being a coarse language, then having someone in my house that was very good with mayalee expressions and finding myself influenced by expressions both languages.

Poor diningphilosopher must have got SMed. He has begun practicing apartheid at his blog:

Thin-skinned hypocrite":

This blog is open to invited readers only ABCD pieces of shit and their shameless FOB lick-spittles should go shag on SM...

After reading a number of his posts there one gets the impression that he is an intelligent, highly articulate, tormented soul. His blog is far more interesting than the usual superficial imitative fluff. He needs to grow up a little though. His obsession with ABCDs (and jews) is clearly unhealthy.

There is also a basic intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy that permeates his worldview: its OK for him to criticize anyone and everyone in the harshest manner possible; but any criticisms of India, especially by ABCDs, are unacceptable. While the hypocrite cries copious tears for the plight of palestinians under Zionist "apartheid", he couldn't care less for the far worse apartheid of hindu casteism. He has this hypocrisy in common with most of the ABCDs and their FOB "lick spittles" he loathes so passionately.

India deserves more criticism than practically any other nation on earth. It leads the world in human suffering and human degradation; in hunger and malnutrition; in child slave labor and child sexual abuse; in people without access to clean drinking water and sanitation facilities; in the mistreatment of women; and so on. It is cruel and callous to not criticize India's massive failures as a nation and a culture. And selfish, which is what I think most thin-skinned psuedo-patriots like dp really are.

Floridian,

Two things. One, I wish I could hug you right now. And two...

And a suggestion to ANNA - don't write another blog about a hoarding.

What's a hoarding? :D

I tell you Anna, you and I both are being attacked for being women writing about personal experiences.

You didn't seem to think so here, but we are all continuously formed and reforged by our experiences. Welcome to the one sorority none of us wanted to rush.

A few posts after that, I wrote this;

OK, then maybe you have a valid case. I guess the worst of the offenses are deleted by the time I read SM.

So I was with you way back then too.

So what can be done about this "woman hating" phenomena on the web?

They want us seen but not read. Photos with no comments.

"What's a hoarding? :D"

A billboard, in Indian English.

Who says data is better than anecdotal evidence anyway?

Common sense, Reason, Science....

Data includes your anecdotal experiences; but not vice versa. So of course it better. It is selfish egoism to think that one's personal experiences trump statistical data.

Such irrational thinking is the root cause of desi backwardness.

Let this not be a completely left brained arena of expression

It is a long ways from becoming that. There are far more people here who seem to think that personal anecdotes trump data than the other way round. Here are some examples:

All my friends and relatives can speak english; therefore most indians are english literate. Fact: less than 10% of Indians are english literate.

Few of the people in my urban circle care about caste; therefore casteism is no longer an issue in India. Fact: 70% of indians live in villages where casteism is still entrenched. Even in small towns and cities it remains an issue.

I saw Brett Lee sing a duet with Asha Bhosle; therefore aussies are not racists. Fact: even aussies admit they are a racist society.

All the graduates from my school got jobs answering phones or coding for western corporations; therefore India is an IT Superpower. Fact: India's share of global IT is a measly 2%.

And numerous other such stupidities.

Floridian @ 189, you've hit this one right out of the ballpark - you've sent it into orbit, in fact. Thank you! And someol'guy - you have great power over words, and phenomenal tenacity - but you're on the wrong side of this one. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too, in the argument, and nobody can do that.

I saw Brett Lee sing a duet with Asha Bhosle; therefore aussies are not racists. Fact: even aussies admit they are a racist society.

Where's the statistical data on that? "Even aussies admit.............."??? Yeah, and?

Even Indian citizens admit their country has got major issues with sexual harrassment. So does it?

Newsflash! This just in...

Prema used the word "irrational" again.

One has to wonder about the reason for these erotic carvings depicting various sex acts. I strongly suspect that they were meant to advertise the sexual services available in the Temple grounds.

WTH! You have any reasons/studies/etc for your 'strong suspicion' or are we just taking shots in the dark?

How can it be a shot in the dark when the facts of pornographic carvings in some temples, and of temple prostitution (devadasism) in hinduism are well known? Its simply putting two and two together.

It is no secret that girls were trained to sing and dance in temples, and in many cases provide sexual services as well. Here's another "shot in the dark": the song and dance, item girl culture of Bollywood is derived from the singing, dancing, whoring devadasis of brahminism.

I tried digging up a little on this and found this

I found this particular explanation from your link really funny:

There are many interpretations of the erotic carvings. According to some current Hindu interpretations, they portray that, for seeing the deity, one must leave his or her sexual desires outside the Temple.

Brilliant! Looking at porn is the best way to overcome sexual desires :)

Buddhists looked at decaying bodies, human skeletal remains etc to foster detachment from sexual desire. That makes far more sense dont you agree?

Well, there is a certain shastra written in sanskrit which gives the peremeters of how a temple should be built architecturally. In there it is described that scenes of daily life are to be carved on the outside so as to represent a leaving behind of the mundane when entering into the meditative temple atmosphere. I can't remember the name of that shastra now. But I think that is used for the basis of that argument regarding erotic carvings on the outside of temples.

...You're trying to have your cake and eat it too, in the argument, and nobody can do that.

kyon ji, france ki rani ni kehndi, puttar cake kha le? Waise actually kya hai ji, doctor ne bola hai ki cake me zyaada chlaastrol hota hai, to isliye ham aajkal cake nahin khaate. Apne heppy burdday par bhi nahin. Jo ki hum Satcherday ko manaa rahe hain.

Why I am trying to have my cake and eat it too, btw?

Sloppy formating in my previous post. Corrected form:

One has to wonder about the reason for these erotic carvings depicting various sex acts. I strongly suspect that they were meant to advertise the sexual services available in the Temple grounds.

WTH! You have any reasons/studies/etc for your 'strong suspicion' or are we just taking shots in the dark?

Why I am trying to have my cake and eat it too, btw?

Oh come on, you admit there's no such thing as 'getting' India, concede that accident of birth is irrelevant, and then you say that it's disingenuous to pretend that where you were born makes no difference, etc. (I'm paraphrasing) You want to be on both sides of this, and nobody can do that indefinitely. And the excerpt from the woman who returned to India - makes a different point entirely from the one you wanted it to make for you - when Salil pointed that out, you conceded his point, not realizing that undercuts your original point.

I fully concede your power over words. I said that at the beginning, and say that again. Just because you can say something well, however, does not mean you always have something good or relevant to say. I also concede your tenacity, you keep coming back, and this time with a new rhetorical style. This level of creativity deserves some applause. But that's it, and that's all from me on this.

And slightly OT - thanks for helping ID that building :) By your description, that should then be the Tilak Marg crossing. You may be right, on the other hand, it could also be the Jhandewalan office complex that 'brown' suggested. Thanks all!

I never said I stopped trying da. I talk to everybody, but without that "apniyath". Somehow, "wot up" is not the same as kya ho raha hai bandhu?/Enna maplai, eppdi poirkinge? Been there with that trashing part. No qualms about that! I've never given up hope. But sometimes the radar picks up stuff that you really don't want to hear from another brown ! Somehow I seem to get along well with more "fellow foreigners (visa holders) " than natives. Must be the luck of the draw!

I get what you are saying. That is exactly how I feel when I talk to a few IBD's. I am better off with the Woddup than the Enna Mapplai. And just like you, I seem to get along better with everyone else.

Well, there is a certain shastra written in sanskrit which gives the peremeters of how a temple should be built architecturally. In there it is described that scenes of daily life are to be carved on the outside so as to represent a leaving behind of the mundane when entering into the meditative temple atmosphere. I can't remember the name of that shastra now. But I think that is used for the basis of that argument regarding erotic carvings on the outside of temples.

This is another theory. There is also the theory that it was everyday life that was depicted. Another theory, if I remember right had to do with the fact that you attain Nirvana, you had to get over such things.

People have spent entire life times researching and theorizing this, I doubt that the answer is as simple.

kyon ji, france ki rani ni kehndi, puttar cake kha le? Waise actually kya hai ji, doctor ne bola hai ki cake me zyaada chlaastrol hota hai, to isliye ham aajkal cake nahin khaate. Apne heppy burdday par bhi nahin. Jo ki hum Satcherday ko manaa rahe hain.

huh?

And for everyone who did not understand this

kyon ji, france ki rani ni kehndi, puttar cake kha le? Waise actually kya hai ji, doctor ne bola hai ki cake me zyaada chlaastrol hota hai, to isliye ham aajkal cake nahin khaate. Apne heppy burdday par bhi nahin. Jo ki hum Satcherday ko manaa rahe hain.

Why ji, Frances queen said, son eat your cake. Actually, the doc said that cake has a lot of cholesterol. This is the reason I do not eat cake. Not even on my birthday. Which we are going to celebrate on Saturday.

So I got the translation, but still did not get the point.

Madison (#178), like I said I wasn't endorsing the views aired in the video. But the song was expressing the frustrations that many people feel. Better to address the underlying structural problems (or at least listen) than turn a blind eye. I agree this wasn't the thread to discuss that video. For that I apologise. You do make some valid points. Lyrically the song is not the strongest, however it makes a very bold political statement at a time when not many are making them. Stuff like that can get you arrested. If the video is allowed to air, and the artist stays out of trouble, then that means maybe India is becoming a mature democracy which tolerates dissent. Also, if they allowed themselves, I'm sure that there are hundreds of millions in India who could relate to that song on some level or another...anyone who is disgusted with India's government for whatever reason, and anyone who feels exploited there. Anyway why don't we leave this here and focus on the rest of this crazy discussion. Peace.

Anna ,

I think you are justified in believing that you face criticism because of misogyny but PG does not face criticism because of misogyny but because her comments are usually obnoxious and offensive

How can it be a shot in the dark when the facts of pornographic carvings in some temples, and of temple prostitution (devadasism) in hinduism are well known? Its simply putting two and two together.

Besides displaying your obvious and pathological hatred of Brahmins ( you sound like a Dravidianist more than a Khalistani) your pathetic conjecture has no basis in facts. There are 63 agama shastras devoted to the proper rules for building a temple. I'd like for you to provide one shred of evidence to back up your statement. Or do you belong to the Wendy Doniger School of thought, where a cigar is usually more than what it seems :-)

Kalavai,

Don't waste your time on this crappy media-whore forum.

There are 63 agama shastras devoted to the proper rules for building a temple.

Why dont you point us to the shastra that describes the sexual positions that should be carved on temple walls?

I'd like for you to provide one shred of evidence to back up your statement.

The evidence is the existence of such pornography on some hindu temples, and the well-known practice of temple prostitution in brahminism. How do you reconcile porn and prostitution with religion?

http://www.erces.com/journal/articles/actuel/v03.htm

"The Devadasi system has a significant place in the history of prostitution in India. The term Devadasi literally means servants (slaves) of God and perhaps originally denoted a class of women who gave themselves to a life of religious service and austerities. These devadasis who were not supposed enter the bond of matrimony often functioned as temple singers, dancers, concubines and prostitutes. The term Devadasi became a euphemistic way of referring to women prostituting in the name of religion (Lall, 1968).

The Devadasi system was set up, according to a Times of India report (10-11-1987) as a result of a conspiracy between the feudal class and the priests. The latter, with their ideological and religious hold over the peasants and craftsmen, devised a means that gave prostitution their religious sanction."

"They noted in their study on -"Devadasis - the link between religious culture and child prostitution". The study revealed that girls from poor families are married to God Krishna and are sold after puberty at private auctions to a high caste master who initially pays a sum of money to the families ranging from Indian Rupees 500/- to 5,000/-.The study, made during health camps organized by the World Health Organization (WHO) in the Devadasi populated areas, revealed that the dedicated girls formed 15 percent of the total women involved in prostitution in the country, and as much as 70 percent to 80 percent of the prostitutes in the border districts of Karnataka and Maharashtra

The devadasi tradition, still prevalent in many parts of India, continues to legitimize child prostitution."

Dont you find this shameful and wicked?

#210 Prema

Ok there are two points here. The devdasi tradition which over time devolved into prostitution under the guise of religious necessity is indeed shameful and deplorable. It's one of those things where religion was used to further other ends and I am not disputing that.

What you are saying is that the existence of the devadasi tradition and erotic sculptures in temples almost proves that they both went hand in hand and that the sculptures somehow validated the prostitution or vice versa. I think there is a flaw in your logic, at best it's a possibility that the two might be linked but there is a very good possibility that they might not be. Your argument is a case of guilty till proven innocent. Unless you can provide some references that do indeed show the cause/effect or dependence between the two, your argument is but a shot in the dark, possibly even colored by your prejudices.

1. I agree that *nobody* ever gets anything *completely*
2. However, what our experiences are, and what our background is (where we grew up, what our circumstances were) does influence our understanding of particular issues/situations which may have a closer link with some places/cultural settings/norms than others.

3.And thus, this can mean that even when we don't realise it, our cultural 'axes', or 'frames of reference', can enter into our perception of things which may seem entirely reasonable to us but may strike other people, with other 'parameters', as unreasonable. Much of this ABD/IBD shebang, in my opinion, arises from this: two sets of people with somewhat different perspectives, each convinced that 'they get it' (on which see 1), squabbling.

That's all I am saying. According to Chachaji, I am trying to be on both sides of the argument: I am not. I am merely pointing out that the two so-called 'sides' are not as clear or black-and-white as some here seem to make them out to be: if you think in clear-cut, mutual;ly exclusive categories, my arguments will not make sense. The alternative to 'getting it completely' (which I agree is impossible) is not 'not getting it at all'. Thus, the SMK article from Mint, not all of which I 'subscribe to', was offered up as an instance where someone felt that her background impacted her response to a particular situation, whereas I was pointing out that I felt what was equally noteworthy was that the response to her response was also driven by the particularities of her listeners' background. That's all. Salil merely backed up my point when I defended the author's bonafides against Pondatti's ranting. So, frankly, I don't know what you're talking about, but that's okay. The opposite also obviously applies.

As for the random interlude in faux-Punj, that was just my Rajinder Nagar Aunty alrter ego speaking. She likes to jump in, sometimes. Her name is Mrs. Sapna Malhotra.

Floridian - some good points in 189. I too find it heartening that the second generation is full of spunk, has a voice, and makes themselves heard. There's the other side of the picture too and that's all I was trying to point out. After all, if someone ceaselessly reminds us that they are american, surely they can stop and reflect that many of those adjectives commonly associated with Americans would apply to them?

Also, I rarely see social problems within the SA community in the US discussed. That might be hitting too close to home, I suppose. Taking pot shots at India is fine and places them squarely on the moral high ground. Why pontificate on tribals and villagers in India? Here's where the condenscension comes in. They want tribals to have electricity it seems, and love marriages, and some type of education. Wow. Tribal areas are by definition rugged but it's no use even beginning to explain what being a tribal means. Let's burn down the Amazon and educate the savages. Meanwhile when some people try and discuss the backwardness of indian communities in the US, they are told to stop hating and love diversity and the stinking curry. I hate the smell of curry but that just means I'm a bigot I suppose.

Meanwhile when some people try and discuss the backwardness of indian communities in the US

divya. pl elaborate...

Divya, you should have stopped while you were ahead, i.e. after your first paragraph. Your second is barely worth addressing. There is plenty of introspection on this site and your generalizations are cartoonish. For example:

Meanwhile when some people try and discuss the backwardness of indian communities in the US, they are told to stop hating and love diversity and the stinking curry. I hate the smell of curry but that just means I'm a bigot I suppose.

No one has ever told anyone what you allege in the first sentence and your second sentence is nonsensical and irrelevant.

Puliogre in da USA - well, there are people who comment about the lack of integration/assimilation of certain indian communities in the US. I've never seen such matters explored in any kind of way. Also there are many in the south asian community who have alcohol and substance abuse issues. These people have almost no recourse, the problem remains invisible and undiscussed. This problem affects the youth as well as their parents. Elder abuse/neglect by second genners is another US issue that comes to mind. A discussion of such matters would reflect the moral laxity of the second generation in the same way that poverty, lack of education etc. is supposed to reflect the moral laxity of all Indians.

Bullshit expert - sorry my second para disappoints. But it's true. it's taboo to hate on the smell of curry (which I genuinely hate). People who hate the smell of curry are described as bigoted. Was just trying to say that trivial issues are defended with the utmost gusto. But you're right. Perhaps I shouldn't have addressed this trivial issue at all.

People who hate the smell of curry are described as bigoted.

This thread is getting stranger and stranger.

Ardy #211,

You will wait forever for shastric or even inscriptional evidence from the likes of Prema. They tend to be long on hateful anti-Brahmin rhetoric but short (shorter than your typical Donigerian cigar) on facts.

Its also interesting that her type will ignore the pederast driven western Catholic priesthood when condemning religious traditions or even entertain the idea that the harem and nauch culture of Mohammedan India (since they ruled for 1000 years) might have anything to do with Bollywood decadence. Instead it will always be the stock-figure "evil Brahmin" to blame for all India's ills. The Devadasi system must be condemned of course, but ignoring the ignoble role of Upper Caste non Brahmin landlords and chieftans is seethingly disingenous.

What you are saying is that the existence of the devadasi tradition and erotic sculptures in temples almost proves that they both went hand in hand and that the sculptures somehow validated the prostitution or vice versa. I think there is a flaw in your logic, at best it's a possibility that the two might be linked but there is a very good possibility that they might not be.

I wrote that I "strongly suspect" a connection between the pornographic temple sculptures and the brahminical practice of temple prostitution; not that I had "almost proved" it. There is no denying that porn and prostitution go hand in hand.

On the other hand its illogical to claim that porn and prostitution are somehow conducive to spiritual detachment. They feed the fires of sexual passion, not curb it.

You will wait forever for shastric or even inscriptional evidence from the likes of Prema

Thats funny. I asked you which Shastra describes the sexual positions that should be carved on temple walls. We are still waiting for your answer

or even entertain the idea that the harem and nauch culture of Mohammedan India (since they ruled for 1000 years) might have anything to do with Bollywood decadence.

For your information, there is nothing islamic about the nautch culture per se. It is of indigenous hindu origin. The very word nautch has a hindu etymology. This is from a brahminical source:

Devadasis->nautch girls

"The dasis fell prey to degraded princes and unwanted company. They became known as 'nautch girls' and were purchased like prostitutes. No self-respecting family was anxious any longer to give a daughter in charity to the temple in order to have her educated in dasi-attam."

"By the persisting pressure of the British lobby against the devasasis the Indian Government eventually launched the Anti-Nautch Act, 1947. The Act not only terminated the entire caste of devadasis, but also the last brahminical profession discharged by the Indian woman."

The Devadasi system must be condemned of course, but ignoring the ignoble role of Upper Caste non Brahmin landlords and chieftans is seethingly disingenous.

What part of "The Devadasi system was set up, according to a Times of India report (10-11-1987) as a result of a conspiracy between the feudal class and the priests." couldn't you follow? Of course the brahmins were catering, as usual, to those who had money and power, out of greed. Your "seething", if it is intellectually and morally honest, should be directed at the priestly caste who provided religious sanction to such abominable practices as temple prostitution of children, child marriage, widow burning, untouchability, caste apartheid etc. Non-brahmins had no authority in this regard.

On the other hand its illogical to claim that porn and prostitution are somehow conducive to spiritual detachment. They feed the fires of sexual passion, not curb it.

With porn and prostitution, generally speaking, there is no "samsar", or the setting up of house, home, family, endless entanglements trying to educate your kids and bring them up in a prosperous way.

From someone who spend years in and around religious groups where celibacy and detachment from "samsar" is regarded as highly valuable, I can see logically how a few visits to a prostitute or a few porn mags are indeed alot less entangling than getting married, having babies and setting up hearth and home in an expensive and very entangling modern day world.

No strings attached = no entanglement eh?

For your information, there is nothing islamic about the nautch culture per se.

Nonsense. From wikipedia, since this seems to be as authoritative as you're capable of getting with references :-)

Nautch, a word used in several languages of North India, is an Indian term for "dance", and indicates several forms of popular dancing styles by young girls, generally called the Nautch girls. The culture of the performing art of Nautch rose to prominence during the later period of Mughal Empire, and the Company Rule. Over a period of time, the Nautch traveled outside the confines of the Imperial courts of the Mughals, the palaces of the Nawabs and the Princely states, and the higher echelons of the officials of the British Raj, to the places of relatively smaller Zamindars, and other places.

Some references use the terms Nautch and Nautch girls to describe Devadasis who used to perform Hindu ritual and religious dances in the Hindu temples of India. However, there is not much commonality between the Devadasis and the Nautch girls.

Bollywood was started mainly be Punjabis and other North Indians, but I suppose in some miracle of brahminism, the mainly southern devadasi system inspired them and their dancing girls. ;-)

Of course the brahmins were catering, as usual, to those who had money and power, out of greed. Your "seething", if it is intellectually and morally honest, should be directed at the priestly caste who provided religious sanction to such abominable practices as temple prostitution of children, child marriage, widow burning, untouchability, caste apartheid etc. Non-brahmins had no authority in this regard.

Caste apartheid has been imposed mainly by feudal castes. Tamil OBCs like yourself have been brazenly discriminatory towards Dalits, and continue to be so, but rather than look to your own prejudices, you continue to blame brahmins, most of whom have long left Tamil Nadu. Temples were built by kings, and the principal 'benefactors' of the devadasi system have always been rich shudras. Now I know what you're going to say. Who taught the shudras this? Were you really so dumb and inferior in intelligence to Brahmins that you would allow them full authority? Perhaps you were, but I highly doubt it. I think you were the prime players and benefactors of oppression, and continue to be so today. Blaming brahmins is a bogeyman.

For your information, there is nothing islamic about the nautch culture per se.

Nonsense. From wikipedia, since this seems to be as authoritative as you're capable of getting with references :-)

Dumb and brazenly dishonest. I gave you a brahminical source, not wikipedia (which is susceptible to disinformation by apologists for casteism such as yourself):

For your information, there is nothing islamic about the nautch culture per se. It is of indigenous hindu origin. The very word nautch has a hindu etymology. This is from a brahminical source:

Devadasis_the_ancient_temple_dancers

"The dasis fell prey to degraded princes and unwanted company. They became known as 'nautch girls' and were purchased like prostitutes. No self-respecting family was anxious any longer to give a daughter in charity to the temple in order to have her educated in dasi-attam."

"By the persisting pressure of the British lobby against the devasasis the Indian Government eventually launched the Anti-Nautch Act, 1947. The Act not only terminated the entire caste of devadasis, but also the last brahminical profession discharged by the Indian woman."

The Anti_Nautch Act was targeted not against muslim culture but against the brahminical profession of devadasis aka temple dancers/prostitutes.

the principal 'benefactors' of the devadasi system have always been rich shudras.

The virginity of the devadasis was, and still is, sold to the highest upper caste bidder. Once again, what part of "The Devadasi system was set up, according to a Times of India report (10-11-1987) as a result of a conspiracy between the feudal class and the priests." couldn't you follow?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978725-2,00.html

"In India children command a price three times that of older women, in part because of a common belief that sex with a virgin or a child cures venereal disease. "Having sex with children provides a greater sexual thrill to many men," explains I.S. Gilada, secretary-general of the Bombay-based Indian Health Organization. "They find it more titillating, and it gives them an added sense of power." To feed the sex market, tens of thousands of girls as young as 12 are recruited in Bombay and other cities; many are devadasis, "slaves of god," a distorted legacy of a 7th century religious practice in which girls were dedicated to temples for lives of dance and prayer. Today the girls pledge fealty to the goddess Renuka at puberty and then -- with the full knowledge of their parents -- are shunted off to brothels.

Who taught the shudras this? Were you really so dumb and inferior in intelligence to Brahmins that you would allow them full authority?

Try this version: "Who taught the brahmins this? Were you really so dumb and inferior in intelligence to muslims and the british that you would allow them full authority?". Whats your answer?

Many of the people who take the time to comment do so because they can't stand my posts or often, if we want to be really blunt or realistic about it-- me. Beyond that, I don't think it's because my posts are loved (but Thank You!), I think it's what you said, that SM keeps you informed and that's what keeps y'all coming back for Sepia crack.

Anna, no I'm reasonably well-informed by a myriad of other sources. It's because I love your posts...and sheesh, if you have to know, you're growing on me, too... That's what keeps me coming back! Honest!

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Dumb and brazenly dishonest. I gave you a brahminical source, not wikipedia (which is susceptible to disinformation by apologists for casteism such as yourself):

What a laugh. In the majority of the posts you offer references for, you cite to wikipedia. How pathetic are you going to get tonight :-)

To feed the sex market, tens of thousands of girls as young as 12 are recruited in Bombay and other cities; many are devadasis, "slaves of god," a distorted legacy of a 7th century religious practice in which girls were dedicated to temples for lives of dance and prayer.

Absolutely biased report. Undoubtedly the product of leftist and/or anti-Hindu propagandists. For your information, prostitution swelled most remarkably during the British period, when much of the Indian countryside was reduced to penury - read any decent history of India not written by missionary-Dravidianists. The main cause of prostitution today is poverty, not Brahmins.

Try this version: "Who taught the brahmins this? Were you really so dumb and inferior in intelligence to muslims and the british that you would allow them full authority?". Whats your answer?

You were the ones in charge. We accomodated ourselves to the existing power structure. When it came time to fight for freedom it was the OBCs who cozied up to the British, or lobbied for silly things like Dravdiastan. We didn't. I see you've come a long way, a media celebrity of sorts, worth of Lord Murugan :-)

Anna wrote:

I want people to explain things I don't understand. That's why I'm here.

Then Divya wrote:

But most of the questions themselves are loaded. In other words, some questions can only be generated in a particular culture, in this case the US culture. From the Indian perspective many of the question are ill-posed and any attempt to answer such questions ends up bracketing Indians within a framework that does not actually exist in India. The culture is misrepresented by the simple fact of asking the question and further in answering the question. DBD's end up taking these questions seriously because there is a tacit acceptance of the fact that people from the US somehow know what they're talking about.

Further, no matter which way you cut it, the constant questioning about India most definitely comes across as condescending. Everything you question turns out to be less morally repugnant in the US than in India by a long shot. Naturally, because both sides use American standards. To me it doesn't look like people really care to understand whatever the heck is happening back in the desh as much as they sort of feel an urgency to establish that they themselves are morally above it all.

Divya, this is very interesting to me, and I have a theory... I was just in India, and one of my best friends (who has never lived outside of India) and I (never lived out of the US) were doing the usual compare/contrast thing, and we started talking about shopping. She was morally outraged that she couldn't take my gora husband certain places that she wanted to take him because shopkeepers would instantly go into "let's rip off the gora, what's Rs. 100 to him?" mode. As we got to talking, she said that when going about her business, running errands in India, she had to assume everyone was out to get her/cheat her...read: Trust No One. Guilty until proven innocent. I, on the other hand, have the exact opposite mindset. In the US, you're SUPPOSED to assume your average Joe's telling the truth and NOT out to get you, and give people the benefit of the doubt unless/until they show you otherwise.

Sooooo...I think maybe this is why you may see offenses where none are intended.

Anna, on this note (your quote above), don't change. Remember when our teachers said the only stupid question was the one we didn't ask? It only hurts for a minute, like ripping off a band-aid, but it's only by braving it, taking the risks you do, exposing your vulnerable underbelly to virtual strangers in this forum...this kind of open and honest communication is the only way human beings ever truly find the source of our disconnects and hope to repair them. So: chin up and keep blogging, babe!!

Further, no matter which way you cut it, the constant questioning about India most definitely comes across as condescending. Everything you question turns out to be less morally repugnant in the US than in India by a long shot. Naturally, because both sides use American standards. To me it doesn't look like people really care to understand whatever the heck is happening back in the desh as much as they sort of feel an urgency to establish that they themselves are morally above it all.

Hey! That part's Divya's too, not mine! Sorry about that! Missed the quotey thingy. (that's an offical term, I'm sure)

What a laugh. In the majority of the posts you offer references for, you cite to wikipedia.

Stubbornly, brazenly dishonest. That was a brahminical reference not wikipedia. What part of "By the persisting pressure of the British lobby against the devasasis the Indian Government eventually launched the Anti-Nautch Act, 1947. The Act not only terminated the entire caste of devadasis, but also the last brahminical profession discharged by the Indian woman." were you unable to follow?

Absolutely biased report. Undoubtedly the product of leftist and/or anti-Hindu propagandists. For your information, prostitution swelled most remarkably during the British period

FYI, the british stood against brahminical temple prostitution. For centuries if not millenia it never occurred to the brahmins that this abomination along with the abominations of child marriage, widow burning, untouchability etc were wrong. In fact brahmins actively lobbied the british to desist from banning the "noble" custom of burning widows alive! The Shankaracharya of Puri even tried to get independent India to overrule the british ban against the "glorious" custom of widow-burning.

The British are long gone but brahmins are still consecrating little girls as devadasis and selling their virginity to the highest bidder. There is no denying the role of brahminical devadasism in the rampant child prostitution in India.

We accomodated ourselves to the existing power structure.

Interesting that you are so proud of this "accommodation" to muslim and british rule. The muslim invaders made brahmins wear nose bags filled with minced beef and treated them as dhimmis; the british colonials treated them as an inferior race along with the rest of indians, and you are proud of this "accommodation"?

Whoa, mama... Where's my popcorn...?

Whoah. How did this issue go from profanity to sexual trafficking in the span of two (?) days.

FYI, the british stood against brahminical temple prostitution. For centuries if not millenia it never occurred to the brahmins that this abomination along with the abominations of child marriage, widow burning, untouchability etc were wrong.

The British stood against prostitution after wresting power from OBC and Muslim chieftans and creating British India. They brought on the penury that forced thousands of women into prostitution. That was something even the Mughals werent able to do. And for your information, who do you think runs Mumbai prostitution rings? Do you have any idea of the Mumbai mafia, the money from the Middle East? When was the last time you actualy visited India? Brahmin priests are not in charge :-)

The muslim invaders made brahmins wear nose bags filled with minced beef and treated them as dhimmis; the british colonials treated them as an inferior race along with the rest of indians, and you are proud of this "accommodation"?

And what were the shudra toddy tappers doing? Still tapping toddy I suppose, or cutting sugar cane from the fields while the kings changed? ;-) You think your twisted stories make Brahmins look evil. They actually make shudras look stupid and powerless. The resentment you feel has everything to do with the fact that Brahmins took over the administrative apparatus of the state during British rule. As a result of this you and the rest of the Dravidianists invented 5000 years of oppression and established reservations for yourselves. Of course you can never substantiate the opprression claims outside of dravidianist-missionary sources. You think your being righteous, but you're actually racist. Since Brahmins are a tiny minority, your vicious hatred is akin to anti-semitism.

Ooooo...isn't it FUN to make a mountain out of a mole hill?! Makes the blood flow to the nether regions, doesn't it? Makes one feel ALIVE! Let me run and get my ruler... English or metric, which does one prefer? Decisions, decisions...

No strings attached = no entanglement eh?

Yep. You pay, you do, you leave. And if you use a condom, no further entanglement.

Whereas if you marry and have kids, big samsar, big entanglement, no moksha for long time.