April 29, 2007
Allergic to Hypocrisy?Issues
A tip about this photograph was posted on our News tab a few hours ago by “namantra” under the title Dehli ad on Metro. It was their description of the link which interested me:
The same country that often frowns down upon public displays of affection has billboards that openly use curse words.
I must say, I was slightly surprised to see one of my favorite blue words gettin’ dropped so blatantly, but I know nothing about advertising in the Motherland. Does this ad signal a coarsening of Indian culture? Or did it not raise the threaded eyebrows of those of you who are familiar with such things? And are we comparing jack fruit with ambarellas; does one have nothing to do with the other?
anna on April 29, 2007 01:24 AM in Issues · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
gotta love it--this is from the same country that gave us a movie named "Hitler" (Mohan Lal in all his glory)--what do you expect? Some things never change--I love it!
It could mean take one bullshit daily, but I think it's trying to sell a newspaper in times when rubbished (trashed in American) has been downgraded to mean nothing more than shelved or otherwise disposed of. Still, nothing beats a shikara called Dancing Girl With Full Spring Seats.
Good Night.
My father, who used bullshit in front of us, occasionally, when we were kids always joked it was OK because bullshit is used to make gobar gas.
When did "Bullshit" become a cuss word? It does not seem to have any sexual connotation! I might have it wrong, it was an oft heard, routinely used term used even by my school teachers. Looks like somethings have definitely been lost in translation. Backwas..oye :D!
for reasons i will never fully understand my entire family in india [everyone on both sides of my family lives there except for my dad, mom, and brother], my uncles, aunts, and cousins have no problem saying bullshit, shit, f*&k, crap, asshole, etc. in front of my nani and dadi.
could someone explain how its better to use a swear word in front of my english speaking grandmothers than to hold my boyfriend's hand in front of them?
Perhaps the American born "South Asians" raised in a typical 3Bdroom 2 bath suburb home by a Camry / Accord driving parents do not realise that roads of India are full of cows / bulls and thus "bullshit"? And that is what ad is referring to?
Looks like our AB South Asians have not walked on the roads of India during early year summer vacation trip to "motherland" and got their chappal / shoe immersed in a piping hot cow dung / bull shit?
My relatives who are quite "G rated" use the term as a clinical description of, well, bullshit. It's not considered a bad word in India, many of us even water it down to apply to courtyard floors etc. The PDA restrictions in India are stupid but you probably want to look for something else to highlight it
Advertising professionals in Indian cities tend to be young, urban, and rebellious (or why would they choose advertising over engineering?). Unless the product in question is specifically geared towards an older age-group, it is not uncommon to come across MTV-ish ads.
What's with the gross generalization? Some nuts decided to burn effigies and suddenly everyone in India is an effigy-burning maniac? Come on. Every country has its share of loonies (judges included, look up Scalia) a good number of whom are employed as editors in MSM. The loonies feed of each other, creating and reporting news. I don't think a rational person should look at this as a representation of society as a whole. I think it is unfair to generalize Indians as prudes.
I think it's a fair enough generalization. What's unfair is to say that the PDA issue and this billboard are at logical odds with each other (no offence, Anna). Things are changing way too rapidly in India... the generation gaps are so large, we may as well be ABDs. In other words, the culture -- in the big cities, at least -- is slightly unstable and confused at the moment.
Nice points. However, do you think it fair to paint all sections of Indian society with the same brush? I am sorry if I am broadening the question here, but I just came off reading a post on another blog about the whole Shilpa Shetty-Richard Gere thing and was a little annoyed with the coverage by MSM. One look at all the decadence that Indian cinema markets, should be some indication that a significant part of society isn't made of prudes. Either that or we are bunch of hypocrites. I don't think that's the case though. Parents in general have always been uncomfortable broaching the subject of sex, but I doubt most of them would be surprised if they found us patronising the above mentioned "language" or behavior.
My opinion may be colored by my background. I traveled throughout my childhood and have seen different sides of the country. I have seen my share of prudes but I have found people in general are pretty open-minded. I don't think we should buy the picture that MSM throws at us.
Again, my point is this: I disagree with the characterization of the country as a whole as an entity that "frowns upon public displays of affection". There are sections that would and there are sections that don't. And there are sections who don't give a $%#@. All I am saying is we need to acknowledge that. :)
#11: Yeah, I remember being scandalized by the Durex ads on TV at 5 pm when I was 10. Worse when my 4-year old brother asked me what condoms were.
#12: No, I'm not speaking for all of Indian society... this is only from my experience. I also may have a slightly different view of the cussing issue, because my parents are relatively more tolerant to talking about sex than to swearing, which they absolutely prohibit.
Yes, but I would think that overwhelmingly, the former are the older generations, and the latter the young. I agree with you that the whole country can't be assigned a single attribute -- however, I think that if we had this discussion 30 years ago, the generalization would be pretty valid.
Same here. One even explained in detail that bullshit isn't a curse word. lol
From observation (or from partaking in conversations) in India, I believe 'bullshit' is not considered a cuss-word. It is commonly used by urban, comfortable-with-english janta even in quite polite conversation without extra affectation or drama. This was recently reinforced on me when a co-worker who's visiting our workplace from the India office used the word completely unaware that in the US its not preferred in formal work situations. I think the other desensitizing factor is that bullshit is a physical object quite commonly evident in the desi environment and its usage seems intended to highlight the animal excretion equivalence to the object in question.
In the same vein, 'shit' is another term that seems more serious/potent in the US in formal situations than in India. People who otherwise are being careful not to utter other umbrages, offer up 'shit' like its regular exclamation. In contrast, in the US people go for bite-my-tongue 'shoot' instead under etiquette-worthy circumstances.
"Again, my point is this: I disagree with the characterization of the country as a whole as an entity that "frowns upon public displays of affection". There are sections that would and there are sections that don't. And there are sections who don't give a $%#@. All I am saying is we need to acknowledge that. :) "
Couldn't agree more with this. I for one find various SM bloggers' attitudes towards India more simplifying and patronizing than those of most non-South Asians I have come across. Wasn't it here that Amardeep suggested that India should take the informed assistance of ABDs when it comes to choosing what movies to nominate for the Oscar foreign movie award?
I still have tears streaming down my face. When my American-born kids go to India they love saying that word and at my raised eyebrows they go, but Ammmaaa, Granpa said that and there TRULY is a bull and when he goes kakaa it is called...(drumroll please) BULLSHEET(that is how they pronounce it get away from the proverbial mouth washing I would have given them in Penn State)! I shall most certainly show them this post today.
I ddin't realise BS was a curse word till I moved to USA. Everyone I knew used it generously. My family was more tolerant to the words BS or S*** than to F*** (which, I think, is because the f-word has an equivalent cuss word in almost all regional languages and is banned at home).
Well, that's the point. The "shit" part of "bullshit" is a bona-fide profanity with a long history as such in the English language. Americans, or so-called ABCDs, don't object to "bullshit" because of their dainty sensibilities regarding cowdung (I mean, come on people). It's just the particular nature of the specific word "shit." And lest anyone then start speculating on the estrangement of Americans from their poop and how that is a telling symptom of their lack of understanding of the reality of life for most of the world today, I hasten to add that we have plenty of other scatalogical terms which are not classed as obscenities.
is it just the physical deterrence factor, seemingly not present in the US, which kept browns fearful of being connected to 'vulgarity'?
To this day, if one of those words (with the notable exception of 'bloody' and 'bugger' although those two words depict hemorraghing and pederasty which seem to be just as objectionable as anything else if not more so) comes out of a family member's mouth in front of the matriarch, there will be a crisp, vinegary ADDI soon to follow.
though i do find it highly entertaining to hear "Put it in his bloody bugger goddamn Vettori teeth, Malinga."
have we simply been left with the least choice of pickings from the colonial grab bag of cuss words? Would that paucity of verbal filth not inspire those emigrating to this country to acquire every silly cuss word they found? And then deny that joy to the people back home?
there are are industries in the US which seem 'professional' but which foster all kinds of unprofessional behavior. I usually drop the f bomb about 10-20 times at work on a good day and much more on a bad one. and yes, I do work in a real office, that issues real GAAP statements and has real worries about complying with sarbanes-oxley (if ye are skeptical).
In my experience it is okay to use english cuss words in India. It's the Indian ones that are taboo. Perhaps the impact of the english ones doesn't fully sink in. Sort of like how I noticed one of the bloggers here recently use the word chutiya. I found that a bit surprising because from the way they otherwise write I doubt they'd use the same word in english.
All this talk about bullshit being acceptable in India (while news to me), reminds me of an Icelandic TA I had who used the word routinely and frequently in class, to the amusement and sometime discomfort of the students. No idea if has to do with Icelandic culture...
Good point :)
I'm with Divya on this one. It's as if curse words in English have less impact as those in Hindi. You can see this, for instance, in the censoring of films - some films have been explicitly silent-bleeped or otherwise edited for desi explitives, but shit, asshole and sometimes fuck are never out. This is even more true in Tamil films - comparing my exposure to films of the two languages, I still know more curse words in Hindi than in Tamil, which I've been speaking since a child! On the other hand, it could be that film makers self-censor by avoiding desi expletives, but even that would show a differential treatment of cursing in the two languages.
Is it Bull Shit and hence the abbreviation BS. It's spelt as Bullshit (one-word) in the ad and this just doesn't seem right.
Isn't there a kiddies' card game called Bullshit in the States? Rather like Balderdash and Bluff?
It's true that earthier English words don't seem to draw the same attention in desh as our favourite chod-suffixed ones. Perhaps it's because of the higher status of English and assumption that no mild swear word in English could possibly be that bad. This reminds me too of Shilpa Shetty's silly remark about being shocked at her potty-mouthed housemates on Big Brother because she thought of England as the country of the queen, high tea and Shakespeare, even though Shakespeare could be pretty earthy himself. But her association of Things English with Classiness was interesting.
...to the amusement and sometime discomfort of the students.
And Indians are considered uptight? :)
SP, my mom theorizes that it's considered "cool" and "Westernized" (i.e. "high-class") to use English swear words.
It is quite a sight to see Sunny Deol roar "You bastard" or "Haramzade". Telugu audiences haven't been too hostile to the odd milder expletive in popular culture in recent times, IMO. Depends on the context. In any case, the usual protests against obscenity etc are usually orchestrated by some two bit political outfit (as a few have pointed out).
I asked about whether this billboard signals a decay in culture or if to those of you who know better, it's no big deal at all. That's it. I promise I wasn't assuming anything, in fact, I even asked if the tipster's comment was inaccurately comparing two different things, though perhaps I should have used "apples and "oranges" instead of attempting to be cute with the jack fruit. I asked all of you because I honestly did not know and all of you do. To those of you who enlightened me without insulting me or a few hundred-thousand other ABDs who had no choice about the fact that they were born here 30-years ago, thank you.
Look, I knew that my family in India said "bullshit", but
a) it was often, "bloody bullshit!" which to me sounded like cursing. And the men who said this daily would NOT have written it down or used it in formal conversation or. To those of you who point out that one literally encounters fecal matter from bulls in India, thus a descriptive term for it is accurate, not vulgar, I offer this as an explanation of where I'm coming from-- I am well aware that dung is used for many things, but to the best of my knowledge, it's not bloody stool that is so ubiquitous or useful. Hence my confusion.
b) my family loves swearing. Which is why when I read certain comments under my posts on this site, I often find myself muttering "Po oombe, maire". Everyone I've ever met is absolutely horrified by my command of such language, and I was always told (by my livid Mother) that the way my Dad and his brothers (and me!) dropped such words in to casual conversation was utterly unacceptable. So, if my family often used the word "bullshit"...I just naively thought that word might be, too. My mother does not say "bullshit". Ever.
Hmmm, I wonder whom this sarcasm is aimed at...ah yes, South Asian ME, especially since I was naive enough to write this post. Well then. Allow ABC me to respond.
(and this one is for you, Daddy.) Pardon my bitchiness (though we could explain my being princess-y as a tragically direct effect of my inclusion in the oppressive South Asian patriarchal system), but you mean "four bedroom, 3 bath suburb home by Merrycedes driving parents". The thought of owning a Camry or Accord would have sent my autophile father, who never purchased a Japanese car, to an even earlier demise, so let's be accurate when we stereotype. Lest Daddy start moving in his current grave, I offer the aforetyped obnoxious correction.
Hey, I'm not the one who "went" there. :p
You are absolutely correct. I didn't walk anywhere. My father was interested in immersing us in many things once we were finally back in Kerala; cow excrement (especially of the steaming variety) was NOT one of them. Beyond all that, why the hell would anyone need to? Or is watching where you are going a South Asian activity?
Wow, talk about generalizing.
No joke-- I have no idea what you are referring to, so please don't hold it against me. We are all individuals in this bloggy bunker. I am NOT responsible for what Abhi or Ennis says and v.v. We don't ever agree with each other and we are not all the same person, so kindly don't turn us in to one.
Right on the money. Only barely 15% people of India speak English language anyway. Using English cuss word would be like using a chinese cuss word in the US. (Little bit exaggerated)
If a local paper used Indian cuss words they would be in lot more trouble than Richard Gere is.
Ah, you've obviously not encountered some of my posts here, where I've used that and worse in English. :D Which perfectly proves my point about how each of the bloggers here is VERY different and if one does something, it often means...nothing wrt the rest.
Interesting, didn't realize that.
If a local paper used Indian cuss words they would be in lot more trouble than Richard Gere is.
True. I wonder if this might not mostly be self-censorship. There hasn't been a huge movement, AFAIK, on part of the local newspapers to reduce this sort of censorship.
You can see this, for instance, in the censoring of films - some films have been explicitly silent-bleeped or otherwise edited for desi explitives, but shit, asshole and sometimes fuck are never out.
I wonder if these two phenomena might not be partly because both regional language newspapers and Bollywood/[?]ollywood movies are considered family reading and family entertainment resp.ly. It is pretty much accepted in the Bollywood industry that, for a movie to be successful, you have to reach the largest audience possible.
right on the money is right. the tipster is comparing apples and oranges. Indian taboos are different than those here. hasn't anyone here seen a bollywood movie where they say 'shit' non stop. it doesn't hold the same weight to its target audience as you, me and joe smith.
Isn't there a kiddies' card game called Bullshit in the States? Rather like Balderdash and Bluff?
Yes. Never actually played it, nor seen anyone play the game under that name. Except in "How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days". I can't believe I actually admitted to having seen that piece of work, but anyways, I guess it isn't considered all that bad to say the word in a private setting. Nobody actually says bullsh*t in the US, but saying "BS" is quite common. And BS, of course, stands for Bachelor of Science.
Apropos #18 (& several other comments in the same vein), I hadn't realised, despite several years in the U.S., that "bullshit" was such a no-no. But then, I hung out with academics, who are less buttoned-up than their peers in the corporate sector. In fact, in fields of research where fashion, pedigree -- and other similar social forces -- shape the course of "knowledge production", the word "bullshit" is merely a necessary term. Often, it's just the most succinct way of describing a research paper/preprint being discussed. Two less commonly used -- but not because they are more odious -- derivatives of "bullshit" that I remember are:
Bullshitistic missile : A highly dubious piece of research sent one's way with great sound, fury and propulsive force (i.e. the approbation of a "star" in one's field), usually from another continent.
Bullshitistry : A piece of research that everyone suspects will eventually go nowhere, but which seems very compelling due to the consummate artistry of its presentation.
I don't know if I offended you chaps, but I clearly didn't mean to. I objected (and still do) to broad generalizations. I don't think they are fair and quite frankly reflect on intellectual lethargy of people making them. My comments initially were with regard to the statement:
I personally have been a little ticked off with the media for the disproportionate coverage they give people who really represent a tiny and loony fraction of Indian society. They trigger debates and invite these talking heads who spew more garbage and generalizations than my tiny brain can process.
This I understand is off topic as far as the discussions on cuss words go, so I'll make this my last comment.
Agreed, GB! "It's a bunch of bull," being a common expression in my lab here. But, you are right in stating that the usage is more acceptable in less formal academic contexts. I suspect, it is only at work and at formal social situations where 'bullshit' is unacceptable. These rules hold in India, as well as in the US; its only that in India, for reasons that I am not quite sure of, the word 'shit' is perfectly acceptable usage and common in urban social spaces. One could go to a family-friends' place for dinner and Monopoly, and loudly curse "shit!" when you have to go to Jail and miss your turn or pay extortionary rent for visiting Mayfair. Since bullshit is a derivative, that is perfectly acceptable too.
So, to conclude, it is like chutney when compared to the thokku pickle that would aptly describe poor Shilpa Shetty's predicament in India.
Not only are English swearwords considered less harmful than Desi ones, some even think of them as stylish word-enhancers (thank you SpongeBob). Most Desi ad professionals I know, (and I know a lot of them), are a peculiarly foulmouthed lot. Age and education has nothing to do w/ it. Even the smooth-world-traveling-Cannes-judge types cuss like sailors.
A woman I know quit advertising over this, er, BS.
Like the graffiti says, “Obscenity is a crutch for illiterate bastards”.
GB,
"Bullshitistic missiles
Do you mean applied math? Wouldn't b.s.-laden stuff be not so common in theoretical areas of research, where the work can be reviewed fairly objectively?
Apropos #18 (& several other comments in the same vein), I hadn't realised, despite several years in the U.S., that "bullshit" was such a no-no.
Only in formal settings, and then you generally avoid swearing anyway. Unless, of course, it comes totally naturally, as in, f'rinstance, "That sucks". I don't think I have seen a difference in the use of the word in academia versus regular conversation.
Newys, there was an ad campaign in the U.S. that went "Make 7 Up Yours". Most "close-to-swearing ad line", anyone? I doubt that ad managers care too much about who they offend.
Why is shit considered offensive? What about words like piss and crap, are they also bleep-worthy ??
That movie starred Mammooty not Mohanlal. What is the problem with that title ?It is quite harmless and not at all considered offensive in an Indian context. Even its translation in local languages like ghoo-gobar is not considered to be in the same league as other swear words (it is ofcourse impolite and crass maybe).
Shankar asked:
Yes and no. The part about more rigorous peer-reviewing is certainly correct. After all, a proof is a proof is a proof. The issue of whether "the result can be reproduced" -- and judgement-calls related to this issue do not arise. However, the problem with theoretical work is that -- more often than not -- there's no extrinsic acid test to deem a piece of work "important". This can lead to the emergence of fads and fashions. A good example of how a solid theoretical programme can veer off towards bullshitistry can be inferred from the following movie review http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/12/12/the-string-kings/. Lest all this seemed a bit too academic to people on this board, do check out the link for some light relief.
It's not just India with the "lost in translation" issues. Think about "shag". Mike Myers played it for laughs but it really does have much harsher connotations in Britain (or did until recently). "Wanker", "git" etc. have stronger connotations on that side of the pond as well, whereas here, they're considered polite company euphemisms for what you really want to call the fuckwad.
Sort of like how I noticed one of the bloggers here recently use the word chutiya
What a chutiya comment :)
I love the word chutiya. I hope we can encourage the use of the word everywhere.
My theory is that the more a culture invests in hiding its poop (e.g. Europe, N. America, Japan) the greater the strictures against scatalogical terms in polite speach. For example the Indus Valley Civ had a highly developed sewer system and not a single seal/tablet containing the word "bullshit" has been found.
Each culture is different I guess, with the early Teutonic fear of biotechnology making a cuss word out of the chimeric "pig-dog" in Germany
So much bullshit about bullshit?
I don't think it is quite the cuss word (even in America) it is being made out to be. You hear crowds shout it when a ref blows a call in Basketball. The TV audio picks it up, and the sportscaster says something like "the crowd is expressing its displeasure at the call". I think if it was equivalent to any other cuss word there would have been a move to do something about it.
And for those of you who can't get enough of it, may I recommend On Bullshit.
To add to Shlok #36 and DDiA #40, using 'shit' in movies is exclusive to the domain of educated, apparently stylish characters. And as others pointed out earlier, using equivalent hindi (or presumably other language) terms would be several orders of magnitude more offensive or at least disturbing. I can't imagine saying 'tatti' in place of shit anywhere in any situation in India :). On the other hand, maybe calling something out as 'gobar' is likely more acceptable, though it may not have the same exact connotation...
I think these ad execs are really discussing philosophy.
That's bullshit.
Why such a victim complex, Anna? These are faceless names "insulting" you on cyberspace. I love the way you write, but geez; calm down. Do you honestly think most of us would take the time to comment if we didn't love your posts or the fact that SM keeps us informed about such random stuff?
I guess you have right to express your displeasure at my call.
Btw, it is not one of the seven dirty words.
May I offer a comment as an IBD who has lived in the US for 34 years and has some ability to contrast Indian English vs. American?
In Bollywood movies, the curse word SHIT is used liberally in place of the less offensive DAMN or the benign DANG or DOGGONE IT. SHIT seems to be a favorite of Shah Rukh's. But that does not mean that Bollywood is echoing a common Indian English word. I have never heard any of my friends and relatives in India use that word casually. I know some commenters insisted that SHIT and BULLSHIT are used more freely in India but probably only when young people are talking strictly among themselves. I would be surprised to hear a 20-year old Delhi IIT guy use the word around any 40-year old or women not his classmates or close friends. SHIT is a Bollywood elitism, which in this case happens to be a linguistic misunderstanding of how this word is actually used in the west. That surprises me even more, because in the last ten years, the educated Indians have become quite aware of Americanisms. In fact, they use DUDE more often than Americans. Now DUDE is definitely a common word specially among the urban, educated youth.
The billboard with NO BULLSHIT, in my opinion, and I am an ad guy in the US with more than a passing interest in Indian advertising, was meant to tout the benefits of the metro over taking other modes of public transportation, all of which might entail accidentally stepping into bullshit. Even in modern Delhi (or NCR), "gais and bhains" do roam the streets. I love jogging in India but with my eyes downcast. I don't always missed them, though. Ahh, the "gobar of matribhumi."
What is surprising is that the ad people did not edit themselves before putting this up because bullshit is not an inocuous word in India and will never be used in polite company. That brings me to a little peeve I have against Indian advertising in general. There is occasionally a cultural gap between the highly urbane and hip advertising people who create the stuff and the 1.2 billion "regular folks" that consume it. In fact, there are cultural gaps across the entire socioeconomic spectrum in India. But that's not a criticism, folks. The gaps are getting blurred as the emerging middle class expands, specially in the top metros. Indian advertising is shaping up fast, partly in response to the changing demographics but largely due to the intense competition caused by a level of brand proliferation that will scare the bravest US marketing pro.
As the 'go-to' person for advertising in the Indian blogosphere, I'd say this ad's probably an attempt at speaking straight and honest. More ads these days in this genre - have sex, sleaze, wtf, and what not. It's another matter that they are all cookie-cutter clones of each other and probably suck big time in achieving the objective.
Floridian,
I agree w/ your assessment of insular phirangised ad folk. There are some geniuses who know complete words to every song by Nirvana but falter at Jana Gana Mana.
Their rival UberDesi camp is just as foul. Their common theme is “Will Mrs. Shinde and Sangli get it?” Not patronising at all. Dumbing down is their idea of authentic Desiness. They come up w/ gems like “You driving, it soching” (sochna = thinking).
In between these two camps lie some smart, talented professionals. They are sadly a minority.
Ravages: "As the 'go-to' person for advertising in the Indian blogosphere, I'd say"
I might "go to" you one of these days for some chat about Indian advertising. When I am in India, I read ads voraciously, perhaps some created by you. The changes over the decades are dramatic. You guys still use Rosser Reeves's USP a lot? Somehow this theory, practiced everyday in the US consciously or unconsciously, is never referred to it as such.
What are the national accounts based in Chennai?
Floridian, it seems the ad is for a newspaper, not the metro itself. But excellent comments.
I too have been surprised at the casual use of shit, hell, and damn among IBDs. I know a girl from Mumbai who uses the word 'fuck' and 'bitch' all the time, but she flipped out when I said 'bhainchod' one time. Just fascinating.
Hmmm, my Indian mother would have washed my mouth out with soap if I had used bullsh*t in front of her....but she did come here in the late sixties, so maybe she's just not up with the latest Indian English lingo. Personally, I hate too much swearing, although I've been known to do it myself. It's unimaginative.
To add some levity: I'm surprised this hasn't become a list of Indian swear words, which I am sure we could all use a few more of, especially those of us who speak only one Indian language. I need some good Tamilian swear words! =) Go!:
Excellent comments, Floridian.
Amitabh, I think the idea is that you can buy the newspaper and then read it on the metro/buy the newspaper at a metro stall.
No, piss and crap are not bleep-worthy. "shit" has never, at least for long centuries, been merely a descriptive word in English. It has been an obscenity. If it is thought of in India as merely a descriptive word for poop, than that is in fact an anomalous usage.
Aaaaand, SHIT was an obscenity long before English-speakers had indoor plumbing and mass poop-hiding.
Anyhow, how exactly does omnipresence of shit (the substance) in one's environment make one "down to earth" and not ABCD-ified?
I understood ANNA's reaction perfectly, because it point-to-point matched my own, hence my original comment #19.
Am I one of the few people who saw the ad and thought it was quite unremarkable? Formerly a Delhiite for the better part of two decades, I can attest that using the words "shit" and "bullshit" in a casual conversation would hardly ever raise eyebrows.
I also suspect the educated (and admittedly more "westernized") urban population is as amused by PDA episode as the readers on this blog. They're certainly not the ones protesting in the streets and filing Public Interest Litigations(PIL) to overburden the courts with frivolous lawsuits. A PIL, for the unfamiliar, is a provision that allows ANYONE to file a lawsuit with minimal investment of time and money even if they're not the aggrieved party. In this case a woman from Jaipur claimed that the entire Indian community was outraged by the kiss. I say Bullshit!
Good point, Floridian! Might get lost in all the, er, bullshit here. :) So let me amplify it a little, since it is a pet peeve with me too. Ad copy, even for large multilingual campaigns in India, gets written in English by the urbane and hip people you speak of, and is then translated, often comically, sometimes idiotically, into the other languages. There is a mild example right there in the picture, in the grey billboard in the background. The Hindi slogan says "Har kisi ki zindagi se juDaa hua hai SAIL", which carries nothing of the punch that the English version does: "There's a little bit of SAIL in everybody's life", which, among other things, is also a pun on the acronym, SAIL being Steel Authority of India Limited.
The Hindi slogan says "Har kisi ki zindagi se juDaa hua hai SAIL", which carries nothing of the punch that the English version does:
The pun was probably not considered important to the message of the ad.
In Delhi, Hindi ads are conspicuous by their absence. I'd say less than 15% of ads seem to be in Hindi. The vast majority are in English. SAIL is a government company, hence the use of Hindi as well. Upscale private firms rarely use Hindi. They DO use Hindi (or more accurately Hinglish) catch-phrases written in Roman script quite a lot.
I agree, I'd be surprized if anyone even thought about it. Still, conveying a message properly involves the idiomatic use of language, even if the puns don't survive. Nobody says things like "har kisi ki zindagi..." - that is, nobody, except the people who translated that, who also largely think in English and can't tell truly idiomatic Hindi from a literal translation.
would it be more acceptable if indian equivalents of BS were used?
Question for the pukka Delhi-wallas - can someone ID the building in the background? Is that, could it even be - this hotel, which I remember as the Oberoi Intercontinental - seen from the back?
Since I've never been to India I can't comment on the word and it's use there
BUT...Bullshit, and variations on that theme were constantly used in the Guju household I lived in.
Ex.- "I don't have any homework"
"Bullshit. I have already talked to your geography and algebra teachers. I have a book right here for you."
I have many, many other examples but my fondest memory is listening to Mista cussing out a driver in Gujarati, English AND Spanish after the family car, a 1978 station wagon, was hit by a drunk.
Good times.
Chachaji,
I don't think the building in the background is the Oberoi as the Metro doesn't go to South Delhi yet. The buildings I think are the office complexes at Jhandewalan but I may be wrong.
If the foo shits...
Still hurts. Yes, I'm a weakling, stuff gets to me, I never denied it. Anyway, I felt like EVERY second-gen kid was being "insulted" and that's unacceptable-- can't we get past this bullshit FOB vs ABCD divide?
I honestly thought I had. If this teaches me anything, it's how perspective is such a crazy thing; a friend of mine read my post and comment this morning and called to remark that I seemed far more chill than usual. I'll let them know they were wrong. ;)
Many of the people who take the time to comment do so because they can't stand my posts or often, if we want to be really blunt or realistic about it-- me. Beyond that, I don't think it's because my posts are loved (but Thank You!), I think it's what you said, that SM keeps you informed and that's what keeps y'all coming back for Sepia crack.
Hear, hear!
I have always wondered why ABCDs are so pre-occupied with India and everything Indian. Is there nothing else you can talk about?
When I first stumbled upon this blog, I was stunned by the depth of ignorance in the ABCD community. I had met some ignorant ABCDs in real life but I had no idea it was so prevalent among you that, indeed, it is the defining aspect of your (ABCD) community. Yes, you are defined by self-loathing and loathing of your parents and perhaps by your love of coloured contacts.
Your posts serve one and only one purpose - they show that you are completely ignorant about India or its culture. "I had no idea how powerful the sport truly is, until now." You have no idea how ignorant your posts sound to an Indian. I guess you either promptly ban anyone who points out your ignorance/bigotry or gang up against him/her. The end result is a blog that is so bigoted that it is comparable to those neo-con blogs. The tragedy is that this blog is not a forum for exchange of ideas - you meet here only to re-enforce each other's bigotry. Its one thing to have a personal blog thats used as a punching bag but an entirely different thing to have a communal blog spewing ignorance and hatred. In the latter case, the reader will form certain opinions about the entire community (and rightly so). At the end of the day, I simply feel sorry for you and your parents.
'You have no idea how ignorant your posts sound to an Indian'
You have no idea what a pompous horse's ass you sound like here
"The tragedy is that this blog is not a forum for exchange of ideas - you meet here only to re-enforce each other's bigotry".
if that is the case then what are you doing here? if that is truly the case?
Saira posted a link to Yahoo's article Bollywood's Rai targeted in new Indian kissing row, whose last line offers a blanket explanation about apparent double standards. It says, "Public acts of endearment are banned in India under the British-era Obscenity Act." So there's your source of population control concerns and lack of control over poop jokes right there. Now I'd like Rajiv Malhotra to send us a PDF of the British-era Obscenity Act.
Funny. Most of what we post about is diasporic. Still, if we don't post on issues in South Asian countries we're called deracinated, and if we do, we're called pre-occupied. Yawn.
Wow. You sound really cranky. I personally apologize on behalf of all ABDs that we are not as well read, educated and enlightened about the topics you find especially important.
Wow. Non-sequitur much? Is this a pre-packed ready-made rant, or did you prepare it specially for this occasion?
Damn. I missed the memo. I thought they were funny.
Ummm - there are plenty of Indians (and Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans) who read this blog, both NRIs and readers in India. Sometimes they agree and sometimes they disagree. Sometimes they enlighten us and sometimes they learn something. But honestly, the ones as cranky as you generally stay away on their own.
Awwww, how sweet. A gesture of concern. Thank you for your caring.
Out of curiosity, I followed the link to the blog of the thing that posted comment #74. This is what I found.
i just always assumed indian newspapers were shitty.. so this just 'fit'.. i mean the 'toi' is such a crappy paper, i'm surprised people will pay to read it..i'm sure this newspaper is full of nothing as well.
and as for bullshit.. it should read bushit.. and feature the guy i love to hate.
and as for this from 'dining':
i really feel sorry for YOU and concur with coach diesel.
end to the haterade.
Ah, I get it. Another lonely person who wants attention and trolls to get it. Right, everybody, there's nothing to see here. Let's just silent treatment this troll for now please ... the more we respond, the more we feed it.
Divya hit the nail in the head regarding cuss words not carrying the same weight in English. Most of us used "shit" quite liberally (the word not the real stuff :) ). But I think if someone ever tried saying "tatti"..it would have brought a lot of ewwws specially if there was fairer sex present :).
And I am annoyed like hell with this handful of idiots who burn effigies and even got an asshole judge to write an arrest warrant. But its very unfair to generalize the whole country over this. I know a lot of guys would have been jealous (Shilpa is one hot tamale!) rather then offended.
We need an NGO who can get our fundi brothers laid and things will be much more peaceful :).
Also its intresting to see how the timing of the controversy( mainly fueled by MSM) comfortably concides with Mr Gere's movie coming out ..hmm not publicity is bad publicity.
I know you said no more feeding the troll but as an IBD, I have to say this this is of the best desi blogs around. Yes, the perspective is more ABD than IBD but that is what I would expect from a blog run by ABD's. Keep up the awesome work ! If the Dining fella has a problem with this, he should know that there are other excellent blogs such as indiauncut that looks at life purely from an Indian perspective.
Dining -- I'm Indian, living here, as you seem to be too. However,
I don't think they are. They are in this blog, because that's specifically what it's for.
I have met some ignorant, obnoxious ABCDs IRL, but people here tend to be fairly open-minded and well-informed. If they don't understand the motherland perfectly, they can't be to blame, not having lived there. Do you understand or know everything about India and its culture? Especially given how variegated it is, socially, economically, geographically, and communally? Do you think the same way as your parents?
As silly as most of the discussion on this post has become, I think ideas are being freely exchanged here. From what I've seen, there's no bigotry elsewhere either. If the general echoes are from ABDs, it's only because they probably make up a majority of the readership.
I glanced through your blog, and I don't think this place is the only one contributing to your prejudices. Besides being strongly anti-ABD, you seem to be anti-White, anti-Jewish and anti-American. If, as I'm guessing, you're living in the US -- aren't you being hypocritical yourself? Yes, there are some ignorant ABDs, but has the group as a whole caused you any personal harm? There are racist and bigoted whites, but (if you are living in America), the group as a whole has clearly welcomed you here. Israel's policies are generally not praiseworthy, but: you seem to be a student or researcher in academia -- do you realise that most of your colleagues are probably Jewish, and have accepted you into the research community?
This -- "I spit on Americans. I spit on the white man. I spit on the West and its lick spittles. I spit on Zionists. I spit on all the scientists. I spit on all the western philosophers. I spit on God. I spit on Human Race. I spit on myself." You, or your rants at least, are clearly unbalanced.
58 · Amitabh on April 29, 2007 12:27 PM · Direct link
Floridian, it seems the ad is for a newspaper, not the metro itself. But excellent comments."
I am embarrassed by my mistake, but as an ad guy, I will say this. The advertiser in this case deserves to be misunderstood. When advertising becomes gratuitous in words or visuals, the communication is compromised. As we like to tell a new recruit - sure, people will remember the big breasts, but they will forget what product they were for. (Unless, of course, you are creating ads for breast enhancement procedures.)
No, it is definitely not Oberoi.
Dining "At the end of the day, I simply feel sorry for you and your parents."
How could a generation we raised be anything but top-notch? You don't have to feel sorry for us, kid.
Sorry, should have read the thing about not feeding the trolls, but this guy's personal blog was... uh, riveting.
A friend of mine sent me this message today;
Got to admit, she does have a point.
(She's a Latina married to a Bengali)
i just always assumed indian newspapers were shitty
The lady doth presumes too much, methinks.
TOI (specially the web version) is as much a barometer of quality of Indian Media as National Enquirer is of American media.
Although tragically, ever since all these 24 hour news channels arrived, the quality of reporting has gone down really fast. And the same can be said about the american media too.
it's definitely not the Oberoi (the building in the background). I think this is the Metro passing between the Pragati Maidan and Mandi House stops, so the building in the back is probably one of the ugly government buildings near ITO. Near Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg, so could be one of the newspaper offices or other office buildings in that area. But the Oberoi, it ain't.
I have to confess I was amused, and a tad bemused, by this post. I think Anna, in all her innocence, missed the point completely. Somehow it *is* comparing apples to oranges to compare the ShivSainik reaction to l'affaire ShettyGere to the casual use of mild swear-word-type things in Indian advertising. I don't necessarily want to generalize from this to SM writers in general, or ABCD's, but it does appear that in this instance, Anna 'didn't get it'. At all.
Which, I think, isn't a problem: why should she be expected to? I do think, though, that vapid theorising about a society you have some connection with but don't know intimately is annoying to read for those of us who think we are a little more clued in (which isn't about being better or worse: it is, after all, at least in part an accident of birth). But if one operates on the rough principle that it is unwise to try to comment on that which one does not quite understand, then it might be wise for Mutineers to be a little more circumspect in passing judgement on various aspects of life in India which they, understandably, don't quite get. Which is not to say that my point is quite relevant to this post, since Anna made her position quite clear at the outset. However, whether you like it or not, there is a certain (I'm sure unintended, and perhaps completely unconscious) prescriptiveness that I occasionally discern in SM's writing about things in India/South Asia, which occasionally borders on the patronising, and does bother me, as someone who lived for 21 years in India and the remainder in some part or other in the "West'. This is also particularly pronounced when you guys write about FOBs, a term that I personally abhor, and I'm not sure has been actively 'reclaimed'. Be that as it may, it often appears that Indians born or raised in the US do have a sort of ... sense of superiority to their Desi-raised/born counterparts, which isn't to say that the opposite is never true (I've met several specimens of the 'Indians-in-the-US-are-immoral-Westernized-scum' variety of Indians), or that there is never any basis for emphasizing a particular aspect of your perceived identity. Simply to say that everytime someone suggests something along these lines, there is no need to get all wounded and on your high horses about it. The person earlier may have been a bit of a loony, but not everything s/he said about you and the site is .. bullshit. :-)
Princeton professor on bullshit:
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html
Once I was at an temple in South Indian with some erotic carvings throw into the mix. My aunt pointed it out to me and my white American friend and said,"Look. Fucking."
# 89 · someol'guy
I do appreciate your non-judgmental comment on the ABD/IBD subject. But think about SM for a second. Here are ABD's who have voluntarily made desi/brown/South Asia their passion? Doesn't that say something about them?
If anybody ends up attributing their desi mission to their need to find themselves or validate their existence... please stop. The ABD's do not feel marginal in the American society, period! Yes, everybody has a few anecdotes to prove otherwise, but I meant that by and large, ABD's don't HAVE TO do this. I, for one, am amazed that the next generation cares enough about some place where their parents came from, and in many cases knows more about it than their parents ever did, to even start a blog such as this.
Anna isn't the one who submitted the tip to the news tab; she's just the one who asked the rest of us what our opinions are about the ad since she readily admits she doesn't know. Instead of conducting a dialogue where we share what we do know, let's label and discourage those who sincerely ask their betters as being vapid, because that wouldn't make us pretentious at all, would it? I can't believe you accused the writers here of conveying an unentitled sense of their own "superiority".
Here's my pet peeve- If they don't write about India, then these these bloggers are self-loathing snobs. If they do write about India, they're hopelessly confused naifs who don't understand anything and therefore shouldn't comment. What do you people want? And do you realize that you set everyone here up for failure with your extraordinarily unreasonable expectations? An allergy to logic indeed...
btw i thought the logic of the ad was pretty simple. allergic is probably not the right word, even as metaphore, but it just seems to be saying "if you don't like bs, read this paper"
You are right, I think that's exactly what they seem to be saying, but I think that it wasn't about the ad not making sense, it was the juxtaposition of boundaries, i.e. it's okay to use a "curse word" but kisses are punishable. Apples and oranges, but that's what the post was about, not whether or not the ad itself seemed logical.
wut % of ppl in brownland are literate in anglais?
SM is lovers, y'all. We come here to share knowledge and experience. Criticism is an important part of that exchange, but only if delivered constructively and in good faith.
someol'guy: You were very polite but the substance of your post affirms the tenor of 74. You even admit that your comments might not be relevant to this post because its author so carefully qualified her inquiry. There are no truths on this board, its all about reshaping ideas and if we got it wrong please do offer your perspective. But heavy-handed sweeping critiques, especially when they don't really apply to the facts at issue, are not helpful.
UPS: I think the metaphor was that antihistamine:allergies as metronews:bullshit. Thus metronews is bullshit medicine. Newspapers and medicine both being things consumed daily.
Pondatti (#93):
Here's what I wrote:
I don't necessarily want to generalize from this to SM writers in general, or ABCD's, but it does appear that in this instance, Anna 'didn't get it'. At all.
Which, I think, isn't a problem: why should she be expected to?
Did you miss that sentence, which drove you to remind me that "Anna isn't the one who submitted the tip to the news tab; she's just the one who asked the rest of us what our opinions are about the ad since she readily admits she doesn't know' ? I *know* that, and I said as much immediately after the sentence you chose to repeat out of context.
My point is *not* that Anna is somehow making some egregious error, or that SM-ers or ABDs in general do not have a right to engage with India or South Asia (anyone who is interested in anything has the right to engage with it, with or without the 'benefit' of an ancestral connection. In fact, I was, as I made clear, expressly *not* talking about this post (scroll up if you doubt this), but making a couple of points about the attitude of (some) ABDs, and a subset of posts on SM, to Indians/IBDs (ah, that's a nicer term - thanks Floridian) that are at best tangentially related to the post itself but which I was driven to make courtesy of some of the comments and what in my opinion is over-defensiveness on the part of SM-ers to any suggestions of this ilk.
"...discourage those who sincerely ask their betters as being vapid"
Err .. 'their betters'? I didn't say that, you did. Just sayin'..... My whole point was that this shouldn't be about better and worse, but you seem to have missed that somehow. Or maybe you do think in those terms...
Classic.
Suggestion box: grammar-check for comments. thanks.
On this one, I think # 89 did get some of it right. I really appreciate this site because it has helped me become more aware of my own status here in the USA as a minority brown person.I appreciate all the purely voluntary time and effort that all the mutineers put in and know that its not at all easy to put yourself and your writing out there for the world to see and comment on. However, at times, I do feel that a kind of patronizing air does creep into the comments here specially the ones directed to FOBs - a term I also abhor but seems to be the only one for the class of persons like me who lived a major part of their lives in the des before moving here.Can/should anything be done about this? I say "No" because the alternate is not to write about matters desi at all which defeats the very noble purpose of this blog.
Part of the issue , I think, is that we all forget that 1:1 comparisons between the US and India are fair to neither. The US has had 300+ years of existence as an independent,fucntioning democracy - the idea of India as a democracy is only 60 years old. The US is fairly homogenous ,in India the language, customs ,traditions change every few miles . Applying one society's yardsticks for what is acceptable behavior/language to another society as-is does not work. And that's why its inevitable that there will always be some posts that will create extreme reactions of all kinds.
#89
I would agree with #92 to an extent. Yes, it is sometimes amusing to observe the confusions between the two cultures like in this post, but then it's not like we the FOBs understand everything ABD either. Also to be fair to the SM writers, most of the India centric posts (as opposed to American south asian posts) on this blog do actually seem to make an attempt to understand more than judge and if once in a while a post does come out which seems a little condescending, we should keep in mind that it might simply be because of a loss in translation or could be an exception and not a norm.
You even admit that your comments might not be relevant to this post because its author so carefully qualified her inquiry.
Espressa: Clearly, you consider it unacceptable to offer any opinions that are not wholly directed at the post in question. I disagree, because the post in question, while by no means an exemplar of the kind of writing I was commenting on, was a close enough cousin (and yet different enough in that Anna explicitly phrased it as a question) to send me on the train of thought which drove me to post. Unless you intend to police my trains of thought, I don't see how your point is germane to anything. Perhaps SM needs to have a section where people can comment on the blog as a whole, rather than on individual posts alone? I'm being mildly sarcastic here, because I don't actually see how this is a big deal. I am making a point about SM in general, and this post made me want to do it. It made me want to do it because I understood what it was about it that was annoying certain other people, even if I didn't think that this post was the worst example of the sort of thing they were talking about. I did think what they were talking about was worth exploring, whether in the context of this post, or more generally.
"There are no truths on this board, its all about reshaping ideas and if we got it wrong please do offer your perspective."
Absolutely, and I did, and intend to continue to do so. Except that you don't seem to like it when I do....or maybe *I* am misreading the tone of your response.
"But heavy-handed sweeping critiques, especially when they don't really apply to the facts at issue, are not helpful."
I'm sorry if you found what I wrote a 'heavy-handed sweeping critique', but in truth it was intended as a comment on a very specific kind of writing that I occasionally see on SM (and therefore, IMHO, not any more sweeping than warranted, though this is, of course, a matter of opinion). While on this point, how come it's okay for people to make 'sweeping generalizations' about everything from India to Indian mores to attitudes about sexuality to the level of street-smarts of Indian advertizing execs, and not for anyone to draw general conclusions from the posts on this site?
As for 'affirming the tenor of #74' - I said as much. From a cursory look at his blog, #74 strikes me as a loon, but that doesn't mean s/he is incapable of sometimes saying something that others like myself, who do not share his/her general worldview, may agree with. Your argument seems to suggest that there's something inherently wrong with agreeing with