Kissing is probably a basic human behavior that goes back a VERY long time...I find it hard to believe it only came about in the last 2 or 3 thousand years...although in terms of literary references, maybe the evolution (of the references) is as described above.

I don't get why you can be arrested for showing affection in public in India but it is ok in indian movies ? Doesn't make any sense to me.. So the laws are saying one thing and the popular culture is saying something else ?

Amitabh, you're right, it's just the writing about kissing where India was first:

Kissing is more or less universal. People in all but a few, tiny cultures do it. And wherever people kiss, they practice the same categories of kissing that the Romans first identified: the “basium,” for the standard romantic kiss; the “osculum,” for the friendship kiss; and the “savium,” the most passionate kind, sometimes referred to as a French kiss. [Link]

But everything comes from India types usually think that if something was written about in India before anywhere else, it must have originated there too.

Does anybody have a reference to these verses - either the original Sanskrit texts or the Mahabharata? I would like to know what exactly they say.

HehEEE! Good one, Ennis. Of course with desis it's all about dikhava/face/not admitting you do things in public.

But it would be fun to see someone make the Kissing is an Ancient Indian Tradition argument to the judge in the Shilpa Shetty-Richard Gere case.

Let's differentiate between kissing and kissing in public. Indians kiss as readily in amorous situations as anybody else. The debate is about doing the same in public. But public display of affection between the sexes is simply not a part of Indian and other Eastern cultures. There is nothing wrong with that.

Very cool..So French Kiss also originated in India too?

Very cool..So French Kiss also originated in India too?

Bien sûr! A Pondichéry, pour être plus précis.

yay we're #1 again. that's vedic ingenuity at work. now the question is which country had the first cunning linguist.

and now you can see why my parents had to spank me in the middle of bal vihar when i was little.

The generation gap in India is as wide as ever ... and politicians/moral police know that they are losing the war. Just a decade ago, Valentine's day was unheard of back home . By 2000-2001, marketing companies started publicizing it for selling their products ... and the Shiv Sena ( extra conservative group in Maharashtra ) burnt Valentine's Day cards, they harassed couples, they stormed private parties and so on.

But nowadays, Valentine's WEEK is celebrated without any problem ... and in places like Bangalore, you see couples hanging out very comfortably everywhere . I am more than confident that once our generation reaches their 30's and 40's , we will be seeing a whole lot of changes ... including a growing tolerance to public displays of affection...

I don't get why you can be arrested for showing affection in public in India but it is ok in indian movies

You can get arrested precisely because it's ok in the movies. In India, cinema is not a reflection of reality, rather a complete escapist departure from it.

Does anybody have a reference to these verses - either the original Sanskrit texts or the Mahabharata? I would like to know what exactly they say.

Bingo. I said the same thing when people said Sanskrit texts had references to homosexuality.

Some ethologists believe that kissing came from mothers transferring chewed food to their babies (kiss-feeding).

But public display of affection between the sexes is simply not a part of Indian and other Eastern cultures.

sure, in general. and it probably differs from culture to culture, and varies over time. i think the overall issue that ennis is pointing to is that many 'traditionalists' lack perspective about the fluidity of their own customs and norms. as a canonical example, the fez was introduced into turkish culture from balkan christians and was part of a 'modernizing' trend. by ataturk's time it was a fundamental aspect of turkish identification and hallowed by 'traditionalists.'

Two desis each kissing the apple sequentially in a Bollywood movie, except there is no apple and there was no Bollywood.

"Kissing the apple..." hee hee. That sounds dirty! Although I think we all agree that luscious mangoes are much better.

Does anybody have a reference to these verses - either the original Sanskrit texts or the Mahabharata? I would like to know what exactly they say.

This is what I found after five minutes of googling.

"Around 1200 B.C., Bryant says, in a portion of the Satapatha Brahmana, a prose text describing Vedic rituals, some passages talk of lovers “setting mouth to mouth� and also of a man who states of his beloved slave woman that he loves “drinking the moisture of the lips.� Whereas earlier passages simply implied kissing, this explicitly talks about it. In the “Mahabharata,� different ways of kissing were established to express affection, according to Bryant. Certain passages refer to how " she set her mouth to my mouth and made a noise and that produced pleasure in me. (Mahabharata 3. 112. 12)� There are also further mentions of setting “mouth to mouth.�

"It is not until the close of the Vedic period, some centuries before this period that we find any mention of kissing" found here, a history of 'sniff kissing' that preceded the kissing we know today. I recommend going to this paper that traces the history of kissin: passages and verses are sited here.

darn, Amitabh in #1 and Ennis in #3 already wrote the first thing I thought of when I read this post. I think while we may be able to claim that we were the first document it, it definitely does not mean it was not done before. For all we know the Adams apple is just some left over infected salvia courtesy the serpent transferred by Eve.

I apologize for the atrocious formating above.

But public display of affection between the sexes is simply not a part of Indian and other Eastern cultures. There is nothing wrong with that.

OK. But those of us who would like to see some protection of individual liberties find it ridiculous that this argument can be used to bar a consensual act between two parties. This is why I am against Hindutva even though I am sympathetic to some of the grievances that drive people towards this atavistic vision of society. I would hope that the police, who at the end of the day have finite bandwidth, would choose to spend their time dealing with "eve teasing", coerced prostitution, violent crime ec.

You: But Uncle, kissing is part of Indian culture! How can it be wrong?

Uncle: Censorship - Indian!

;-P

Bingo. I said the same thing when people said Sanskrit texts had references to homosexuality.

HMF - I take no position on its content, but here is a link to a wiki page concerning Homosexuality and Hinduism. In there they make specific references to texts.

True, but that very page says the Vedas make no direct references, rather acknowledgement.

Here is a translation of the verses from the Mahabharata :

And his two eyes seemed to be covered with wonderful Chakravaka birds of an exceedingly beautiful form. And he carried upon his right palm a wonderful globur fruit, which reaches the ground and again and again leaps up to the sky in a strange way. And he beats it and turns himself round and whirls like a tree moved by the breeze. And when I looked at him, O father! he seemed to be a son of the celestials, and my joy was extreme, and my pleasure unbounded. And he clasped my body, took hold of my matted hair, and bent down my mouth, and, mingling his mouth with my own, uttered a sound that was exceedingly pleasant. And he doth not care for water for washing his feet, nor for those fruits offered by me; and he told me that such was the religious observance practised by him. And he gave unto me a number of fruits. Those fruits were tasteful unto me: these here are not equal to them in taste.

It reminds me of some of the passages from the Song of Songs in the Old Testament, for instance, the lines that start with "Arise, my beloved". Some very beautiful lines with a lot of natural imagery.

True, but that very page says the Vedas make no direct references, rather acknowledgement.

HMF - I really know next to nothing about the topic, but doesn't the Mahabharata or the Padma Purana count as a Sanskrit text? That was the language you used earlier. I'm not trying to argue here at all.

I remember those verses well, they are from C. Rajagopalachari's translation of the Mahabharata from the original Sanskrit. This passage narrates Rishyashringa's encounter with a celestial nymph, and his narration of the same to his father. The ascetic Rishyashringa has never seen a woman in his life and he thinks the nymph is a very beautiful boy.

Of course, the Mahabharata is not as old as the Vedas, and hence does not matter here. Nonetheless, I recommend Rajagopalachari's translation to everyone here. It reads beautifully, almost like poetry.

@ DDiA (#25) :
I remember those verses well, they are from C. Rajagopalachari's translation of the Mahabharata from the original Sanskrit.
The verses are from the translation of the Mahabharata by Kisari Mohan Ganguli.

Of course, the Mahabharata is not as old as the Vedas, and hence does not matter here. Nonetheless, I recommend Rajagopalachari's translation to everyone here.
There are issues of religion here as well.

HMF - I really know next to nothing about the topic, but doesn't the Mahabharata or the Padma Purana count as a Sanskrit text? That was the language you used earlier. I'm not trying to argue here at all.

Sure, I agree with you, the Sanskrit texts do acknowledge these topics. In fact what's said about the Mahabharata is:

""What is found here, may be found elsewhere. What is not found here, will not be found elsewhere." "

So homosexuality, kissing, etc.. are all aspects of humanity, and there's no surprise that references are made to it in the MBH, however, I'm always unclear as to what the big deal is, and the intent of making the declaration. Why is it news? That we should all be kissing each other because the MBH and Vedas say it? The Vedas also say to leave the home and go to gurukula by age 7. Do we do that?

#14 "i think the overall issue that ennis is pointing to is that many 'traditionalists' lack perspective about the fluidity of their own customs and norms."

Some customs are fluid, some are impervious to change. I don't know how fluid the Indian society's public kissing practices, or the lack thereof, will be over time. I have spent a lot of time in Hong Kong, an Asian society that is: a)entirely urban, b)economically no longer third world (future India?), c)fully accepting of western culture. Yet the Hong Kong Chinese do not kiss on the streets. You see some stolen kisses here and there, as you also would in Mumbai and Delhi, but certainly not at par with the west.

#19 "This is why I am against Hindutva even though I am sympathetic to some of the grievances that drive people towards this atavistic vision of society."
The only thing that drives people to any atavistic vision of society, be it Hindutva or jihadi terrorism, is the pursuit of power. Religion is a very reliable tool to "rabble rouse" people into following you blindly, and making physical display of affection anti-Hindu is nothing but clever politics, dirty as it may be.

Kissing in public is not a morality issue, in my opinion. I am interested in it purely as a cultural phenomenon. There must be deep seated cultural reasons, beyond a simplistic sexual repression often associated with India, why it is a rarity in India and other Asian societies. I wouldn't look too deeply in Hinduism for an answer. I am very familiar with Indo-Caribbean Hindus, most of them fairly staunch, including your auntie. However, in their culture, public kissing is not only acceptable but kissing total strangers as a part of greeting Latino style is actually expected. It is obviously a learned behavior, which is surprising considering most of the islands with Indian population were British colonies, not Spanish. Go figure!

Would somebody please write a thoroughly researched treatise on this very important subject?

So homosexuality, kissing, etc.. are all aspects of humanity, and there's no surprise that references are made to it in the MBH, however, I'm always unclear as to what the big deal is, and the intent of making the declaration.

HMF - I'm put in the odd position of defending people I don't know. Still, as I understood it, they're trying to make two points, although I could be wrong:

1. They're trying to refute the claim that homosexuality is foreign and un-Indian
2. They're trying to point out that some of the earlier references are not critical. That is, if the Padma Purana describes a sexual relationship between a (male) Krishna and a (female version of) Arjuna, that perhaps Hinduism isn't entirely critical of homosexuality.

Still, it's all guesswork on my part, so this is the last comment I'll leave on the topic. I'm neither Hindu nor Gay, so I haven't been privy to this debate.

Indians are like pandas. We can't do it if someone's watching.

Rajaji's translation is very easy to read and fun for a quick summary. Unfortunately, it's not detailed. This passage, for instance, is too detailed for it. He also throws in some preaching from time to time.

Rajaji's translation is very easy to read and fun for a quick summary. Unfortunately, it's not detailed. This passage, for instance, is too detailed for it. He also throws in some preaching from time to time.

I have a hard time believing that public displays of affection were never part of Indian life, given the explicitness in so many temples, in Sanskrit poetry and drama, in the epics etc. 'Indian culture' seemed to once have a healthy respect for the body and for sexuality. Is it a coincidence that the tools the Hindu fundies are using (ie the Obscenity Act) are British laws long since discarded by the British? At the risk of sounding like Everything-bad-came-from-the-British Aunty, I'd suggest that Indian society is still recovering from the contempt shown to it by a pathologically uptight Victorian England.

The next time someone tries to pull the "it's not in our culture" bit, simply refer them to the story in the Padma Purana in which Arjuna (in a female form named Arjuni) faints at the sight of Krishna's dangly bits, and the two proceed to get it on. Apparently as the story goes, Arjuna gets thoroughly depressed at the thought of having to turn back into a man, so Krishna tells him that the only way it can continue is if Arjuna shuts up about it, since their oh-so-harsh world will never understand.

I'm still planning on using that one of these days.

DQ, I tend to think that the British Raj didn't make too much of an impact on Indian culture, especially at the village level. I think the 1000 years of Muslim rule before that made a bigger impact. But I also wouldn't be surprised if indigenous Indian culture even before Islam's arrival had conservative elements too (existing alongside the sexual temple art, romantic Sanskrit plays, the epics, Kama Sutra, etc). And I think as far as PDA is concerned, while of course it shouldn't be harassed in India the way it is, it boils down to respect...how many of us would openly french-kiss our significant other in front of our parents? I think I've mentioned this before but there are times in NYC when I haven't made out with my date in a taxi because the driver would be an older desi dude. In fact, at the risk of revealing too much info, I'm currently dating a caucasian woman, and whenever I've been dragged to her parents' house, I've kept my hands off, and haven't so much as kissed her...even though gora culture has no such expectations. In fact her mom was kind of perplexed by that, apparently. I guess next time, I'll kiss her daughter in front of her, if that makes her more comfortable. But what you do in private, and how you behave in public, can be two different things.

PS DQ, I still remember that beautiful Bengali couplet you shared a long time ago. Can you quote it again? Something about ami ek jojobar, bhulechi nijjher ghar?

Is it a coincidence that the tools the Hindu fundies are using (ie the Obscenity Act) are British laws long since discarded by the British? At the risk of sounding like Everything-bad-came-from-the-British Aunty, I'd suggest that Indian society is still recovering from the contempt shown to it ...

Right. All except the Victorian part-- it's still going on.

lowe,

Everything-bad-came-from-the-British Aunty

Agree with Ennis' points (#1 and #2 in comment #29). The point of first mention of kissing might be of interest only to academics, and it might not add very much new to what we know. There are also various other mentions in the classical texts about sexuality : the menstrual cycle (e.g. in the Draupadi vastraharanam episode), the attraction of hetero men to women's breasts, homosexuality, etc. There is a strong tradition in Hinduism of accepting truth from multiple sources of origin, and of moving 'towards truth' ('asathoma sadgamaya'). As various aspects of human sexuality such as homosexuality become clear, it is clear that some opinions at the intersection of religion and sexuality need to revised.

In scale, these mentions are only a small part of the story. The epics are about the overall Indian experience of empire.

Weren't the major parts of the Vedas written outside India?

Weren't the major parts of the Vedas written outside India?
Yes, they are believed to have been composed in Central Asia. There are however no mention of elephants (Indian) but there are mentions of horses (Central Asian). It is believed that the memory of the migration was lost byt the time they were composed. In any case, Indian culture, specifically Indian Hindu culture, is quite highly influenced by the Vedas and other Sanskritic texts.

That should have been : 'They are believed to have been composed by _people from Central Asia_, but composed in India.'

Indians kiss as readily in amorous situations as anybody else

How do you know that? Is there any study done in India to back this up?

Two desis each kissing the apple sequentially in a Bollywood movie, except there is no apple and there was no Bollywood.

Heh. This has been an Indian tradition, long before Bollywood thought of it. Traditional Indian weddings featured the bride and groom sharing paan...their first introduction to the possibility of the kiss. Seems silly, but then again, people got married when they were 10 back in the day. The groom was probably still in the "girls have cooties" phase.

ho ho ho ... time for another PIL ... this time it's mr. bryant who has earned the honors ... i bet there are some people sitting in their armchairs trying to trash out a reason to file a PIL ... defaming of indian culture, blah blah ...

The next time someone tries to pull the "it's not in our culture" bit, simply refer them to the story in the Padma Purana in which Arjuna (in a female form named Arjuni) faints at the sight of Krishna's dangly bits, and the two proceed to get it on.

See this is my point, I really fail to see how stories like this cannot co-exist with homosexuality/PDA being downplayed in our culture? The Mahabharata also has a story where a village boy becomes one of the best archers in the land, and then cuts his own thumb off so the one with "royal blood" can retain best archer title. Do we go around cutting our thumbs off?

As Joseph Campbell says, these myths and sacred stories are metaphors and can be interpreted in a myriad of ways.

Weren't the major parts of the Vedas written outside India?

There is much conjecture around this, but no actual fact. Barring any proof or even circumstantial evidence, we must assume as Shankar says that they were composed in India. As to the origins of the people who composed them, there is also no solid picture.

I think ABCDs should not be allowed to write about India unless they have stayed in India for 10 years.

I think ABCDs should not be allowed to write about India unless they have stayed in India for 10 years.

If we stayed there that long, we wouldn't want to write about India, we'd only want to hop on one foot and alternate the foot we're hopping on.

Ummmm.. so let me get this straight

Some guy actually makes money, from a university moreso, for researching the history of kissing??

I really can't decide whether he is a loser or not!

I think ABCDs should not be allowed to write about India unless they have stayed in India for 10 years.

I don't think Indian immigrants in the US who hail from urban backgrounds should be allowed to write about life in rural India. What's your point

Ummmm.. so let me get this straight

Some guy actually makes money, from a university moreso, for researching the history of kissing??

I really can't decide whether he is a loser or not!

I think it's interesting to study the origins of such a wide spread practice. Don't you prefer the environment here where we have the surplus necessary to engage in this kind of research over India where only the wealthy who don't need to find employment can pursue a humanities education ?

I really can't decide whether he is a loser or not!

Why a loser? It seems perfectly logical for an anthropology researcher to concern himself with social customs, including kissing.

It seems perfectly logical for an anthropology researcher to concern himself with social customs, including kissing.

I guess that brings forth a more interesting question of where in such branches of science one draws the 'gone too far to be of any use' line. I guess it's not immediately obvious to me what learning about kissing mores of ancient people is going to achieve except bragging rights and maybe someone can throw more light.

I guess it's not immediately obvious to me what learning about kissing mores of ancient people is going to achieve except bragging rights and maybe someone can throw more light.

The ways in which humans express emotion and affection are intimately connected with their social mores, and can often help paint a picture of a culture in ways that just history and literature do not. Also, sexual practices have always been the province of anthropology studies.

And that's basically the extent to which I can speak on the subject!

Hema #52

And you do speak wisely, I agree with what you said.

Plus on second thoughts, it does not make sense to judge everything done for the pursuit of knowledge and learning on the basis of a quantifiable practicality and utility.

They have researchers working around the clock trying to figure out how to make the perfect seedless watermelon.

The ways in which humans express emotion and affection are intimately connected with their social mores, and can often help paint a picture of a culture in ways that just history and literature do not.
Precisely. Anthropology is certainly an area where the Vedas can be used.

In fact, because of various problems (see comment #39, or better yet, read the history books), the Vedas are, essentially, 'unsatisfactory' as 'historical source material'.

For what it's worth, my bit on how readily Indians kiss - I went strolling through a park in central Kolkata a couple of months ago and was, ahem, shocked to my prudish ABCD toes. I mean, the place was crowded - no, the place was stuffed, crammed, overflowing - with young couples in various stages of clinch. I started to get extremely uncomfortable mid-walk. Everywhere I looked, whether it be at a bush, a tree, a bench, there was a cluster of couples groping and necking. In some cases, there were four or five couples all gathered in a little grove of bushes. All of the couples were clothed, of course, but some of them looked like they were doing a lot more than kissing. The only place I could have looked without feeling like a voyeur would have been the sky.

No one got arrested. There were police hanging out right outside the park (maybe they like the view).

Amitabh - I'm so impressed you remember those verses! They're from a well-known folksong entitled Ami Ek Jajabar that goes 'ami ek jajabar, bhulechhi nijjer ghar' - my rough translation: I'm a gypsy, I've forgotten my own home. Perhaps there are bengalis out there who can translate it better. The song's about a man who travels the world.

DQ, I was just reading an article in the Economist about the moral police in India and these lines made me crack up:

Illicit lovers also favour protected monuments and ruins, where an entrance fee can buy a little privacy. At Kolkata’s Victoria Memorial, a peerless example of British civic baroque architecture, this correspondent faced a surprising sight. Under the sombre gaze of Britain’s tubby empress, immortalised in bronze, scores of young couples lay writhing on the lawn.

I've been to Kolkata's Victoria Memorial, as well as the Nandan Cinema complex, I don't remember seeing any of that mess.

Under the sombre gaze of Britain’s tubby empress, immortalised in bronze, scores of young couples lay writhing on the lawn.

I've been to Kolkata's Victoria Memorial, as well as the Nandan Cinema complex, I don't remember seeing any of that mess.

Maybe it's a fertility rite performed on special occassions for "Victoria Ma", whose "tubbiness" is viewed as a sign of fecundity

Everywhere I looked, whether it be at a bush, a tree, a bench, there was a cluster of couples groping and necking. In some cases, there were four or five couples all gathered in a little grove of bushes.

DQ, were they taking turns with each other? In that case it may have simply been a harmless kissing-yoga class :)

I lived in Mumbai for 12 years, there is nothing I have not seen (and sometimes experienced..ahem;-)) on the beaches, parks, movie halls, shady restaurants with cublices that fit 2, which charges by the hour. Kissing is a decent and honorable act as compared to what goes on when the light is dimmed, sun goes down, and behind the bushes. The next time you see someone resting his or head on someone's lap, it is not what you think ;-). Positions and possibilites are endless, fabric provides little hinderance if manipulated the right way.

The moral police have double standards, when it is convenient, they make a big issue, else they don't care. Also it helps to keep some small denomination money handy to shoo off the urchins or bribe the nosy kind.

"This is India, not England,” said retired government officer Ramesh Dhatrak, 65.

i love it!

i thought it was too cold to snog outside in england?!

"Even This Comes From India"

..... You got the "even" right, but where is the "only"?

Even This Comes From India Only.

... or alternately...

Even This Comes From India Itself.

Let's differentiate between kissing and kissing in public. Indians kiss as readily in amorous situations as anybody else. The debate is about doing the same in public. But public display of affection between the sexes is simply not a part of Indian and other Eastern cultures. There is nothing wrong with that.

I do think it's a problem for children to grow up without ever seeing any kind of physical affection between their parents in the home.

I wouldn't want to see my parents "making out" - but if I grew up without ever seeing them hug, hold hands, or kiss each other in greeting, or even so much as not even patting each other affectionately on the back or whatever, well, I think it would have adversely affected me and my ideas about man/woman relationships.

Illicit lovers also favour protected monuments and ruins, where an entrance fee can buy a little privacy. At Kolkata’s Victoria Memorial, a peerless example of British civic baroque architecture, this correspondent faced a surprising sight. Under the sombre gaze of Britain’s tubby empress, immortalised in bronze, scores of young couples lay writhing on the lawn.

Doesn't "illicit" mean illegal or immoral? Like in the case of a married man with a woman other than his wife? Why would they use the word "illicit" in this case?

"I wouldn't want to see my parents "making out" - but if I grew up without ever seeing them hug, hold hands, or kiss each other in greeting, or even so much as not even patting each other affectionately on the back or whatever, well, I think it would have adversely affected me and my ideas about man/woman relationships."

It might have adversely affected YOU, but to say that it is having a similar effect on the psyche of a billion-plus children being raised, as we speak, by physically non-demonstrative Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Japanese, Malays, SriLankans, Indonesians, Arabs and Africans is to say that the westerns way of raising children is the only right way. And that is preposterous.

Having said that, I would still agree with your overall premise that love between a man and a woman needs to be conveyed to children. But love and affection have very different expressions in different cultures. This is hardly the place to catalog all the various Indian expressions of marital bliss, but hopefully, you have spent enough time among perfectly normal Indian families to have detected a strong presence of love and affection, without the obligatory kissing, hugging, and other overt western gestures such as mommy sitting in daddy's lap while junior plays with his train set and sissy with her Barbie.

I wouldn't want to see my parents "making out" - but if I grew up without ever seeing them hug, hold hands, or kiss each other in greeting, or even so much as not even patting each other affectionately on the back or whatever, well, I think it would have adversely affected me and my ideas about man/woman relationships.

I don't know if that's generalizable to everyone. I mean, I didn't grow up with any expectation that my parents would express their affection physically in any way. I'm almost certain they never even held hands. On the other hand, it was always clear to me that my parents did have affection for each other. For example, my parents have nicknames for each other. As a kid, I thought they were silly, but now I think it's kind of cute.

PG,
I do think it's a problem for children to grow up without ever seeing any kind of physical affection between their parents in the home.
So, according to you, all gay kids born in heterosexual households have 'a problem'?

For example, my parents have nicknames for each other

I grew up (mostly) in the desh, and my parents also had nicknames for each other - my father invented one for my mother, but my mother used the nickname his family had always used for him. One form their semi-PDAs took was the following. My father's job would sometimes take him away for several days to weeks at a time, and when we were kids, my father would always kiss my mother the first thing he did when he got back, whether we were right there watching or not. Later, as we grew up, this stopped. I wish it hadn't. I think this might have forever affected my sense of 'how much physical affection and public display thereof' is just right between men and women. :)

However, it's quite clear that my parents were quite off-the-chart in their semi-public displays of affection in front of us kids - from what people are reporting, even more so for middle-class desi parents in the desh.

i thought it was too cold to snog outside in england?!

It's never too cold to snog in england!

Risible,

Now that you mention it, I may have missed the rotations in my attempts to look oblivious....

Thank God it was kissing yoga and not tantric yoga.

Kissing in public is not a morality issue, in my opinion. I am interested in it purely as a cultural phenomenon. There must be deep seated cultural reasons, beyond a simplistic sexual repression often associated with India, why it is a rarity in India and other Asian societies. I wouldn't look too deeply in Hinduism for an answer. I am very familiar with Indo-Caribbean Hindus, most of them fairly staunch, including your auntie. However, in their culture, public kissing is not only acceptable but kissing total strangers as a part of greeting Latino style is actually expected. It is obviously a learned behavior, which is surprising considering most of the islands with Indian population were British colonies, not Spanish. Go figure!

Take into consideration the African influence in the Carribbean when looking for an answer to this.

The next time someone tries to pull the "it's not in our culture" bit, simply refer them to the story in the Padma Purana in which Arjuna (in a female form named Arjuni) faints at the sight of Krishna's dangly bits, and the two proceed to get it on. Apparently as the story goes, Arjuna gets thoroughly depressed at the thought of having to turn back into a man, so Krishna tells him that the only way it can continue is if Arjuna shuts up about it, since their oh-so-harsh world will never understand.

I'm still planning on using that one of these days.

Arjuna was not male at that time but female - a different person. I don't see any homosexuality there.

Find a reference where two men in male forms or two women in female forms are getting it on.... then you might have a case.

PG,
I do think it's a problem for children to grow up without ever seeing any kind of physical affection between their parents in the home.

So, according to you, all gay kids born in heterosexual households have 'a problem'?

No. Seeing the affection between their parents teaches them how to behave with their own future partners.

I grew up (mostly) in the desh, and my parents also had nicknames for each other - my father invented one for my mother, but my mother used the nickname his family had always used for him.

It's a tradition in some regions of India for the husband to give a "new" name to the wife soon after marriage.

It's to signify a new identity as a wife.

@ PG: I think it was kind of implied that perhaps the relationship continued after that, implying a possibly homosexual relationship, rather than it being an overt one.

@ PG: I think it was kind of implied that perhaps the relationship continued after that, implying a possibly homosexual relationship, rather than it being an overt one.

Ridiculous. There are no references in any shastra, either Puranic or Itihasa like the Mahabharat, wherein Krishna is described as having any kind of homosexual relationship.

However, what you will find is the concept of "gopi bhav", wherein saints and sages throughout the ages (both male and female) aspire to serve Krishna in an amorous relationship upon the death of their material bodies, liberation of their soul (jeevs are prakruti, or feminine in nature), and the attainment of a spiritual body in the eternal world. That body would be a female one in order to engage in the madhurya-rasa, or the amorous relationship of Lover and Beloved with the Deity Krishna. One cannot engage in the amorous relationship in a male form with a male Deity, hence, the death of the material body and the birth of the spiritual (female) one.

One who has read even a little bit of "krishna lore" knows this.

PG (#77): THIS I think you are right about. I confess I don't know a lot of lore, but then neither do the so many people, all with different agendas, who make all kinds of claims about 'what's in the Vedas' or 'what's in the Puranas' or whatever. It's precisely the lack of real, in-depth knowledge on everybody's part that allows all kinds of claims (many false) to be made.

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