If Sikhs are infected with castesim it just shows how entrenched it is in Indian culture --- 500 years of a relatively progressive religion which rejects caste explicitly and it still persists. How depressing. I have been asked my caste at mandirs in London and Leicester.

Red Snapper,
I agree with you in general but I do have a problem with your use of the term "entrenched." It suggests a permanent unchanging caste system which certainly has not been the case. I believe that much of what we sometimes refer to as the "traditional" caste system is really a product of the nineteenth century.

Aniruddha,

Whats your opinion on Nicholas Dirks "Castes of Mind: Colonialism and the Making of Modern India"?

I think they did a great job with the video-- parts of it were funny, parts were thought-provoking. Good stuff.

Well Aniuruddha it feels entrenched when it even rears its head in otherwise cosmopolitan settings --- and when it is practised to a greater or lesser extent even by Indians from religions that reject it, like Sikhs, Hindus and even some Muslims, it shows that it just can't be described as a Hindu problem.

When I was asked what my caste was at two different mandirs, I felt rage and disgust at my religion.

Last time I checked sikhism is caste free. Yet caste has become very important to many punjabi sikh's. That is something I have never understood.

It was only a couple years ago that I found out what the word jatt means[ I'm 30 now]. Before that it was some word that I always saw in sikh marriage ads.

I come from a jatt background yet in my family is was something that no one ever talked about. But in many other punjabi familes being a jatt is the most important thing they have in there life.

First time posting in the comment section, I am so excited.

Something that I hear alot of youths, especially Punjabi youths say is that being Jatt doesnt mean its a caste and that they treat it as their own special ethnic community, which seems like a cop out to me. Contemporary Punjabi culture, the music, the movies itself glorifies the ideal of a the tall Jatt man in a black kurta pajama with a revolver, Punjabi kids eat that up and love feeling superior. Thats what I have observed atleast.

Purush,
Never read it - except for a bizzare rant that he goes on against the Cambridge School of South Asian history. I did read his new book Scandal of Empire tho. Pretty dissapointing.

Red Snapper,
Either this cosmopolitan stuff is not all that it is made out to be or it is encompassing those spaces where it earlier did not encroach upon - thereby mixing with caste. Maybe this is the new face of cosmopolitan modernity - getting asked your caste the next time one visits a nightclub.

like Sikhs, Hindus and even some Muslims, it shows that it just can't be described as a Hindu problem.

Correction --- "like Sikhs, Christians and Muslims, it shows that it just can't be described as a Hindu problem."

This is the exact question I asked my relatives just last week when I was in India. Me being single, they were trying to "find" a girl for me who belongs to a very specific background, a telugu speaking telangana (region in andhra, also a dialect of telugu) pakanati (subcaste) reddy (caste) girl who is an engineer(?). I dont even want to get into the reasons that they've given me for wanting someone with that specific requirement, they were just extremely silly, such as this one "the rituals which are performed during a wedding ceremony amongst the other reddies are very different from ours, we dont want to be following those". There are millions of such reasons, discriminating down to the sub caste is alive and well and thriving even in the metros. I think one of the primary reasons for such discrimination is that the "caste" is just one of the ways of trying to "figure out" someone's personality, as an indicator of thier lifestyle/upbringing/socio economic status/customs etc.

I don't know much about punjabi music. But for some reason alot of punjabi songs the word "Jatt" is a very popular word, and alot of songs titles have the word jatt in it.

But for some reason I don't thinks there are many punjabi song about being a from the Khatri caste

Caste at some level can form part of people's identity. If someone's been raised to view their caste favorably, and if it has allowed them to feel better than others around them, it will be very hard for anyone to get rid of it. That person probably has no desire or incentive to get rid of it. Unless they are committed to that cause out of sheer principle or religious belief. But things change for other reasons...as people become more westernised, and marriage choices become more free. I personally think that in a generation or so, urban middle and upper class India will shed caste to a very large extent (although the dalit/non-dalit distinction will probably remain for a while). Urban poor, as well as rural populations in general, may take another 2 generations to see significant reductions in caste behavior.

So you don't think it's an entrenched problem Aniruddha? I really don't see the point that you're makin. So you're saying it was an artifical construct that appeared at a certain time in the nineteenth century, before which there was nothing like it? So what about all those men like Ravi Das, Kabir and Nanak who wrote about and preached against the iniquities of caste 500 years ago? It is entrenched to varying levels --- that's why it doesnt go away.

Perhaps it all started out as a means of self identity? It is base human behavior to aggregate amongst people that we identify with. It is true across cultures and geography. I always smile when I see brown amongst non browns. May be it is the knowledge of a shared heritage. I share my wedding pictures with people and feel specially thrilled when someone can actually understand or relate to some of the rituals.

But I am unable to understand the extremes to which people go to maintain their cultural identity which probably is the point of the post here.

clueless,

I think it ties back to the fact that the ideal of the Jatt super man is engrained in the mind of alot of Punjabi youths. I guess they area appealing to their target demographic, I know when a song with the word Jatt is played at any type of Punjabi function the dance floor is filled with kids yelling their Bruah's. Something ironic is the fact that the most famous singer's of the "Jatt Pride" songs are not Jatt themselves, but know how to exploit the word to get rich. Surinder Shinda's Putt Jattan De song would be a good examples.

On a related note I found a song once on youtube glorifying Punjabi Rajputs, it was pretty interesting.

I agree that it's breaking down Amitabh, especially in the West, but some still cling to it. Your point about it making them feel better than other people, well, I just call that what it is, a form of supremacist thinking. Listening to some people speak about their caste 'pride' is like hanging out with members of the Aryan Nation, all that mythologising about the purity and superiority of their 'line', where their ancestors come from, all that laughable bollocks. (Laughable to normal people, they actually take it very seriously and get offended should you point out the reality of their attitude)

Red Snapper,
Not quite - caste was surely around before the nineteenth century but operated in very different forms. What I'm arguing is that caste is a very fluid concept and changes with time. Amitabh's very hopeful post will surely not happen. As India modernizes/westernizes or becomes more cosmopolitan so will casteism. As a few of the posts have noted - even Bhangra pop - the ultimate in Indian modernity is affected by caste.

Anna, thanks for this post - and props to the people behind that video.

I don't think I really knew about 'caste' until I went to England when I was 15 and I was "educated" by people there about the caste I'm from and how it's the "best." It was pathetic and I wish I had never heard it. It wasn't discussed at home but after that day I felt like I heard about it everywhere. I want to yell every time I hear a relative or family friend say the word "jatt" in a demeaning way. Do we really need to label people in that way? I can yell at my own parents if they ever introduce this word, but I can't yell at the countless other aunties and uncles who include it in their regular vocabulary. It makes me want to scream, but I refrain.

But even more disgusting than that is the widespread acknowledgement of this caste sytem by people from my generation. Haven't we learned anything? Why are we adopting these backward concepts? Shouldn't being raised in the US/Canada/UK at least teach us to question practices? I know my dad has had to field hundreds of questions over the years from me about being Sikh and being Punjabi. I can't imagine how others like me don't question the caste system and instead embrace it and even flaunt it.

When I recently saw people in my Facebook network joining groups related to the caste system, I wanted to throw up. I wanted to delete them as my friend. "Proud Bhappas" - seriously? Are you so jealous of all the "Jatt Pride" that you need to now find something to feel "proud" of? It's disgusting. I hope to raise my children in an environment where they never have to hear about the caste system and don't have pre-conceived notions of people based on it. But I don't see that happening if people continue to keep it alive.

Ok I should stop before my low blood pressure becomes high =)

What were the other forms it operated in before the 19th Century Aniruddha? Would be interested to know. Either way, almost as far back as we can see into the Indian past it has been present, that makes it pretty entrenched, regardless of the fluidity of its forms.

Modernity breaks this down of course --- because you cannot survive and prosper with those attitudes. Not in the West, and I suppose, increasingly, not in the future Indian city.

Does anyone know how caste plays out in Trinidad / Guyana? Has it broken down, changed? I ask because they've been around longer in the diaspora than the rest of us, how has it persisted, what forms has it taken? Naipaul writes that in his time, growing up, it was still strong in Port of Spain.

i think this problem, as with 90% of other problems in desi community, lies in our people not getting laid enough. i don't think happy people bother trying to make others unhappy based on some disturbed, ancient, ridiculous third world traditions....i am a jatt and i would much rather marry a darker, more even skinned girl than a hairy, sun-deprived, baggy clothes-wearing one who is jatt....though i am sure my parents would object......i am 99% sure vikram is not jatt either.....maybe u think im trashing jatts casue im not one; trust me i am....i too would be a tractor driving, alcoholic, loud burping, no toilet paper using, no shower taking, no deodrant wearing jatt from the pind if my pops hadn't been successful in getting his visa in 1969.

Has anybody been on the message board of websites like Jattworld and other Jatt websites. Some of the stuff there is kind of stuff you would see on a white supremists website. Most of those people on there websites are western born.

Great post Sonia,
Caste on Facebook - I don't think it is possible for us to be modern Indians, even here in the diaspora without being aware of our castes, and even being casteist.

I quite agree with some of #13 that an upbringing plays an important role in deciding whether a person relates to his/her caste or not. A home atmosphere where a kid grows up being quite aware of his caste may end up feeling a certain way about it and then wont be able to get around it as easily even if his surroundings once he leaves home might be such that caste wont matter in any way. In such a case he/she will instead seek out other people of his caste. That may explain why even ABDs relate to their castes so many times. On the other hand if a kid grows up being unaware of the role of caste in his/her life he/she should find it a lot easier to not really care about it. Of course as mentioned in #13, a person can get around his caste prejudices on sheer principles but then how many people are like that. The solution is to bring up kids making them realize that while caste does exist (not a good idea to be in denial since it's so in your face at times thanks to morons out there) it should not define any aspect of their lives or personality. That again is easier said than done since parents can't help but impart some of their prejudices to their kids.

If the caste discrimination did in fact become a big taboo issue then maybe there would be some hope. However while it is taboo to an extent, the fact that brings with it associations of a cultural identity have so far not allowed it to disappear completely and people still quite easily ask ones caste. Looking at the realities in India even today, I am not sure if it's going to be reasonably gone anytime soon.

Red Snapper,
I know very little about pre Modern casteism. Brahmins were a lot less powerful - because pre-colonial ruling communities were generally rivals of Brahmins. Some evidence also suggests that women's sexuality was less controlled - lower castes typically restrict female sexuality less than upper castes - and since Brahmins were less powerfull their take on female sexuality was less acceptable amongst other castes.

Dear aspiring trolls,
Please don't do that thing you do so well for at least another hour (when I get out of class), as I have much I'd like to add and would not appreciate seeing this thread shut down. Everyone else, please carry on.

it matters to us because it matters to our parents or grandparents. because ideas like the importance of the caste system and the superiority of one group over another, get passed down through generations. caste continues to matter to my grandmother who has 3 white daughter-in-laws, 5 mixed grandchildren, and who lived in western countries for 25 years. it matters to her so much, that she thinks, i, one of her mixed grandchildren, should marry a tambrahm, specifically and iyengar (to which my mother says "why, you're already impure anyway").

But even more disgusting than that is the widespread acknowledgement of this caste sytem by people from my generation. Haven't we learned anything? Why are we adopting these backward concepts?

the way this need to inform others of where we are in some dated hierarchy persists. Right now, we need to ask ourselves…why?

on the basal psychological level it seems obvious that it is is 'free status' which you don't have to work for. i.e., i will predict that the expectation of 'caste dropping' increases proportionally with lack of success or attainment in one's life, all things controlled. in some ways caste is a human thing, how many white people talk about their descent from the 'king of france' and stupid shit like that?* the only thing i would say though is that contrary to people to 'caste drop' think, i suspect most people assume that if you have to babble on about your ancestors there really isn't much there in you as an individual. or at least, not as much as you want to be there.

* do the genetics and it seems pretty obvious that everyone is descended from both kings and slaves, to various proportions.

how about the tromentators?

Reading the various posts above leads me to make one general observation. Caste like race, religion and nationalism, etc, is an exclusive identity. Of course there are important differences (nationalism being a super-identity encompassing some of the others), but lets also note the similarities, which are evident form a lot of posts above (the appeal to "pride", denigration of the "other" etc.). Therefore as we condemn caste, we must also remember that other identities can be just as pernicious (perhaps more so, in case of nationalism, for instance). Now back to our discussion.

I am constantly bewildered by the fact that some 2nd gen'ers seem not only conscious of caste distinctions, but actually believe in (or rely on) them.

I think caste mattered to our grandparents (and probably our parents) because it defined their social mores, their manner of speech, their culinary traditions, their marriage customs, etc. But most South Asians raised in a more westernized setting are much more influenced by their local culture than by their caste culture. So to hold on to that caste identifier seems more than a little strange.

I'm confused about this Jatt thing. Are all farmers Jatt? Or are Jatts specific to a region? I met someone Jatt once, and a Sri Lankan friend told me the Jatts were the farmers near Haryana. Is the 'Jatt Pride' thing a kind of proletarian, working-man snobbery? Or does it have deep roots in a regional/religious hierarchy?

You are way too optimistic Hema - caste didn't matter because of cuisine - it mattered because it made a difference if you got a job or not - it made a difference whether you could drink water at someone's house - or whether you got tortured for overhearing a Brahmin mumbling his prayers. The same is true today. Your life depends on your caste.

I think caste mattered to our grandparents (and probably our parents) because it defined their social mores, their manner of speech, their culinary traditions, their marriage customs, etc.

To some degree, they still hold somewhat. I know some 2nd gen folks that refer to caste, but not as a superior/inferior thing rather a "this person will work well in my family, as they are familiar with x,y,z traditions."

Now, if those traditions aren't worth a muskrats ass to you anyway, then sure caste may not be a characteristic taken into account.

it matters to her so much, that she thinks, i, one of her mixed grandchildren, should marry a tambrahm, specifically and iyengar (to which my mother says "why, you're already impure anyway").

Thanks for sharing that, Asha.

I have a semi-unrelated question for the group. I noticed that Red Snapper mentioned being asked about caste at a Mandir. Does this mean that not just anyone can go? My dad was raised Hindu, but I'm mixed and I've always wanted to go visit a temple. I went to a couple in India as a kid, but I've never been to one in the states or as an adult. Is there some sort of restriction? Is there a guide somewhere where I can find out how I am supposed to dress, what I am supposed to do, if I will be restricted from certain parts, if I can bring a guest, general protocol? Anybody have any tips on this? Thanks.

I am constantly bewildered by the fact that some 2nd gen'ers seem not only conscious of caste distinctions, but actually believe in (or rely on) them.

same. also, let me state that taking pride in one's ancestors and religion, etc. can be a natural thing, and i don't think it is always harmful (i am not one of those myself because i dislike islam and so on). that being said, it can become pernicious, and we all know what that line is. some people are annoying and irritating, talking about their origins all the time (kind of like i had a jewish friend who i told to shut the fuck up after she jabbered on about how they were the Chosen People for the 1000th time-she, being a born again jew to speak). but i've read stories about other bizarro stuff, like in the UK where brown patrons refuse to take change from clerks who were untouchable in brownland. that is really, really, repulsive and primitive.

I don't think I really knew about 'caste' until I went to England when I was 15 and I was "educated" by people there about the caste I'm from and how it's the "best." It was pathetic and I wish I had never heard it.

Uh try this at my age. I have honestly never dealt with this question till now, now at this point in my life when I'm meeting boyfriend's extended family am I getting asked about caste. And I have come too far and have too much pride to break down and ask my parents now. I was never raised with it, hell I never heard anything in our specific family. I've heard words thrown around when I was a kid like Kokanasta Brahman or CKP or Kshtriya but again never had any detailed conversation in my family. Now I admit I've also lived alone for a long time so have become isolated a bit from some of the specifics; for the longest time when I was a kid I used to think being Maharashtrian was a caste. Doh, that was wrong.

So recently I met an 'extended' aunt on his side who tried to speculate on my caste based on my skin color and eyes and what my mother looked like and our last name and a multiple other insane tangibles! I stood there completely flabbergasted while my MIL fumbled around with words to shut her up! People are truly pathetic with this stuff.

Maitreyi,

All farmers arent Jatt but most if not all Jatts come from agricultural family backgrounds. Most Jatts are in North India/Pakistan. Punjab, Haryana, UP, Uttranchal and the like. Most Jatts I believe though are Muslim and many still keep their Jatt clan names but I guess dont make such a big deal out of it as Sikh ones do. I think the Jatt pride thing has to do alot with the fact that they are proud of being farmers of the 'breadbasket of India' as people call Punjab (dont know how true that might be). Also the fact they were heavily recruited by the British and labeled a martial race. There are probably other factors too, I just know these two probably contribute alot.

SemiDesiMasala, anybody can go to a mandir where I come from, these were just casual enquiries from older individuals who frequented them, what upset me was why it mattered to them, and what that had to do with anything.

So recently I met an 'extended' aunt on his side who tried to speculate on my caste based on my skin color and eyes and what my mother looked like and our last name and a multiple other insane tangibles!

she might have caste, but she got no class ;-) sometimes it's a zero sum world.

Red Snapper,

Thanks! And I'm sorry that people were being so nosey with you.

Is there some sort of restriction? Is there a guide somewhere where I can find out how I am supposed to dress, what I am supposed to do, if I will be restricted from certain parts, if I can bring a guest, general protocol? Anybody have any tips on this?

I struggled with going to the temple myself because I never know what the protocal is, am not religious and am usually going to appease a parental unit and am fearful of being singled out and ostracized. And I'm 100% Indian.

Honestly there is no protocal in the United States as far as I know. As long as you are respectful, dress conservatively, take off your shoes etc you should be fine. I know every single temple has different rules. The Ganesha temple in Flushing NY for example gets a lot of non Indians who come in to worship dressed in saris and traditional clothes but then it also gets desi people coming in to worship with tight jeans that ride down their butts as well.

From what I understand there are rules at some of the larger temples in India and quite a bit of the rules are 'made up based on who it applies to'. And I don't mean this in a scarcastic way but rather have heard too many stories from too many people and have personal experience with it hence the conclusion.

caste continues to matter to my grandmother who has 3 white daughter-in-laws, 5 mixed grandchildren, and who lived in western countries for 25 years.

Do you think it would still matter to your Grandmother if she had 3 black daughter-in-laws? I ask this because I think there is an intersection between Caste and Colorism and half-gora grandkids have one huge thing going for them-- usually they're fair-skinned and if they're not, they look desi, it's often one or the other, sometimes both. I've heard this over and over-- an Auntie in our social circle was gossiping about some family whose children had intermarried, one with someone white, one with someone black, the latter union just took place... "At least if she was a white, the children would look nice, have fair coloring etc...now they will be black. Poor ____. Coming to this country, only for that disappointment."

it matters to her so much, that she thinks, i, one of her mixed grandchildren, should marry a tambrahm, specifically and iyengar

Sure, why not. Reabsorb you in to the fold.

I know some 2nd gen folks that refer to caste, but not as a superior/inferior thing rather a "this person will work well in my family, as they are familiar with x,y,z traditions."

But what about those G2ers who DO use it as a put-down? I think this is far more ubiquitous than we realize or care to admit.

SDM --- other people I know have the same kind of thing happened to them. It's not like, what part of England are you from, it's what is your father's name? (code for what is your caste, although other times it's been asked for straightforwardly) --- as for visiting mandir, just go, dress modestly, take your shoes off and put them on the shoe rack, smile and ask people there what to do if you're unsure, enjoy yourself.

I've always wanted to go visit a temple. I went to a couple in India as a kid, but I've never been to one in the states or as an adult. Is there some sort of restriction?

Hi JOAT,

Thanks for the tips, I think I'll give it a go.

some of you might know that in evolutionary psychology the researchers often say we have a "pleistocene mind." that is, our cognitive toolkit is geared toward solving the problems that ice age hunter-gatherers faced, and that causes problems in the modern world. for example, credit card debt can be comprehended by the fact that long term projection of compounding interest really isn't something many (most?) people intuitively "get." more prosaically, many car accidents occur because our innate perception and reaction time is far too slow to keep up with the ability of the cars to accelerate and deccelerate. in some ways i think fixation on caste (or skin color) is like the brown version of the "pleistocene mind." they had utility in brownland, but i think they are of marginal importance in the west (being a brahmin probably has some value toward non-browns just cuz it seems spiritual and elite, but it is a minor issue IMO). it makes sense that the 1st gen of brownz would keep up with the old habits, but the perpetuation in gen-2 is really, really, something that i thin is basically a cultural maladaptation. like i said, ethnic, caste or religious identity in and of itself may not be pernicious, but some of the extreme fixations and relevances attributed to them (e.g., "don't socialize with that person because of they are of low caste") are really out of place and just cultural legacy which has little utility in the new circumstance.

Would be interesting to experiment going into a temple and telling people that you are a Dalit. I wonder how people will react.

SemiDesiMasala in #36

Just go dressed as you would to a coffee shop. You will need to remove your shoes, same as in India. And please do turn off your cell phone - the last time I was in one, this dude gets a call and ends up chatting on the phone inside the temple.

A question for Sikhs out there: at a small Gurdwara I used to go to when I was living in another part of the country, they used to give Prasad to the Amritdhari (initiated) Sikhs before the rest of the Sangat. The Prasad was also, as I understand it, prepared separately from the Prasad given to everyone else.

It always felt a little strange to me -- a kind of caste ritual that I hadn't seen anywhere else, and that made no sense to me. In other ways, the Gurdwara was very strict and conservative (no new-fangled rituals, and the majority of the sangat were Kesh-dhari Sikhs from Punjab).

Anyone have an explanation for this?

[BTW, I have now had my fix of Van Halen for the day!]

The first time I became aware of my caste was when I reached around 21 and my parents knowing that I wasn't going to med school, felt that the only legitimate thing for me to do was to get married. So for me, when marriage was discussed that's when caste came up - my parents hope that they would find a good boy of our caste; When I talked to my South Asian friends, they also told me that's when caste came up for them. So it's odd for me to hear such things as caste groupings in My Space.

I realized then, that judging from the last names of my parents' contingent of friends, that we have a very diverse caste-background social group, so I'd never felt the sting of caste exclusivity.

And then I did some research on my caste, and found to my surprise that it was more than likely considered Sudra, or even untouchable or converts from buddhism. So I found all of this interesting b/c I started looking at my family's socioeconmic background and their Malyalee friend's socioeconomic background in Kerala...I didn't see a correlation between wealth and caste - whether someone was Nair, Brahmin, or Thiyaan.

Then I started realizing who this Guru was that my family had statues and pictures of in our house....this Guru who had temples in Kerela named after him. Sree Narayana Guru in Kerala at the turn of the century (he was originally thiyaan caste) started a movement to open up all the temples to every caste. What a remarkable, holy man.

From what I can tell when I visit Kerala, (and I know that so much probably goes over my head,) but Kerala has made great strides in overcoming caste discrimination.

(sorry for spelling mistakes; I just write quickly and can't be bothered to go back and change mistakes)

I come from a hindu Brahmin family, my grandparents never really mentioned it, nor did my father. It was my mother who took great pride in the caste we had. It matters a lot to many of my family, who use it to put down many others in the community. “we are Brahmins, we are closest to god”. And when parents tell their kids that they can only get married to someone of their own caste, and then children would inherit that same mentality.

A aunt and uncle came to our house to give a wedding invite for their daughters wedding. When they were describing the boy, the first thing they would mention is that he is a Brahmin boy.

These people find it more important to have huge mandirs in their home showing how religious they are instead of being people who serve other people. Madness.

caste...they had utility in brownland

I am 'mixed caste' by the way, folks.

I grew up knowing clearly that I'm a Jat Sikh. It was in all the songs played at weddings and parties, and my parents made sure we "knew who we were." They also talked about family friends and made references to their castes--basically stereotypes like, "Tharkans are very good with business matters." Not that different from racial stereotypes in the U.S.

Recently, I decided to do a bit of research on the matter for myself and discovered some interesting bits of info. The Mudfort of Kuchesar was a Jat ruled fort centuries ago. I wondered what that Jat clan might have to do with the Jats in Sikhism and whether the clan preceded Sikhism. In other words, were there Jats before Sikhs? If that's the case, then Jats are actually a clan, rather than a caste. If you check the Wikipedia reference to Jats, it states that there are Muslim Jats and Hindu Jats as well as Sikh Jats. In fact, Sikhs have the lowest number of Jats at 20 percent, with Hindus having the highest at 47 percent. Funny. I always thought I was Sikh first and Jat second.

Very Shakespearean, however, this clan against clan business. Reaches way back into antiquity and works itself into casteism and nationalism. A lot of carnage based on religion actually is carnage within the family.

Wow!!! Are you guys living on another planet??? What about all the caste discrimination that goes on India? The violence, the murders, the rapes??? Or maybe everyone here is from a high caste and that's why thinks that we're living in a rosy paradise.

Sorry for that rant - but it is the end of the semester and I am tired of grading papers.

K P S Gill used to call his critics* “Bhappes”. Did he mean a) clueless city-slickers b) people belonging to a certain caste, or both? Anyone care to enlighten a non-Punjabi?

*a group of highly educated Sikh writers, journalists etc.

Wow!!! Are you guys living on another planet??? What about all the caste discrimination that goes on India? The violence, the murders, the rapes??? Or maybe everyone here is from a high caste and that's why thinks that we're living in a rosy paradise.

Please address the person who's apparently irked you. What's this "you guys and everyone" business?

Apologies JOAT - and everyone else - was probably annoyed with my students and took it out on this blog.

It's just so sad reading these comments about their experiences with caste --- it can be such an evil.

Aniruddha - I said I was from a lower caste, but Kerala's history and social justice movements and advances in education seem to have helped a lot in ameliorating caste discrimination and prejudice.

razib writes: >>it makes sense that the 1st gen of brownz would keep up with the old habits, but the perpetuation in gen-2 is really, really, something that i think is basically a cultural maladaptation

Cultural maladaptation and intellectual bankruptcy.

M. Nam

Shodan,

Bhappes is supposed to refer to "Khatri" Sikhs who came from West Punjab after the partition, I think now though its used for any Sikh that isnt Jatt. I think it supposed to mean both, city slicker and the caste/community/whatever. Bhappe is supposed to be a negative connotation, It is the reason alot of Sikhs are angry at Bollywood because when they do have Sikh characters they will use the "bhappa" stereotype.

I don't think I really knew about 'caste' until I went to England when I was 15...

Aniruddha:

I'm not naive about what caste distinctions have meant over the centuries. Nevertheless, torture from accidentally hearing prayers, or not being able to drink water at someone's house are fairly rare in the urban, middle-class milieu. On the other hand, what you eat at home, the particular vocabulary you use (at least in Tamil) can be significant identifiers of caste. And it seems to me that these are the sort of things that tend not to go away, in spite of urbanization, modernization, etc.

I think caste is very much learned -- at least for those us born here State-side. I didn't even know about the whole caste thing until I made desi friends. Neither my family or hubby's family ever brought up the word.

I am always shocked when I hear discussions about caste from highly educated desi friends. I want to scream "Who the f*ck cares?????"

I am with Sonia. My kids will never be taught to have pre-conceived notions about a person based on caste/race/sexuality/socioeconomic status etc.

I still dont know how these actually work...

Easy! Jatt vs. Everyone else

:p I'm kidding...though I'm kinda not.

I've done a lot reading on the Sikh religion and I just find it such a travesty how caste has infiltrated that religion as well; really makes me sad at the state of things now as compared with Sikhism's orgins.

From what I understand there are rules at some of the larger temples in India and quite a bit of the rules are 'made up based on who it applies to'.

it definitely depends on the temple. we've been to quite a few temples in india, and i think we only had problems at 2 of them. my mom, my (white) gramdmother, and i weren't let into one because we were too white (but my brother was allowed), and another one wanted my mom to sign a statement saying she believed in hinduism.

Do you think it would still matter to your Grandmother if she had 3 black daughter-in-laws?

honestly, i think it probably would, although maybe less so. color has never seemed to be an issue in my family, we're pretty dark as it is. it's more the shame of my dad and uncles marrying outside the race/caste system. i made the mistake of of asking my grandmother, when her brother was looking for a bride for his son, why the girl had to be iyengar. that set her off on a rant (in tamil, which i don't speak) about how if her kids had stayed in india they would have married iyengars and she wouldn't have all the problems she has now.

Regarding the statement below:

A question for Sikhs out there: at a small Gurdwara I used to go to when I was living in another part of the country, they used to give Prasad to the Amritdhari (initiated) Sikhs before the rest of the Sangat. The Prasad was also, as I understand it, prepared separately from the Prasad given to everyone else.

When a Sikh becomes baptized, it is common for them to be told to refrain from consuming food that has been touched by a non-amritdhari (non-baptised). For instance, you are not to drink from the same glass, share a meal, etc. I don't know how that started. I doubt it has roots in actual Sikh teachings. Also, some gurudwaras really prioritize encouraging the congregation to get baptised. This may have been such a gurudwara.

Sometimes who is conducting the amrit ceremony makes a difference. One bhai jee may have different rules or priorities he stresses to those who get baptized.

And, as a side note, since so many here brought up that Sikhism is so progressive, has any one struggled with the fact that almost all of the Sikh gurus were of the Khatri caste ( I think it is 8 or 9 out of 10)?

From what I understand there are rules at some of the larger temples in India and quite a bit of the rules are 'made up based on who it applies to'

Some temples have dress codes too, for what it's worth. My cousin and I were both not allowed into a famous temple in Kerala because we were "inappropriately attired."

My parents never brought up caste...it was ME who asked them what caste we were, probably in 2nd or 3rd grade, because that's when I learned in school (in New Jersey) that India has a caste system. I remember being very happy to learn that we were from a 'warrior' caste. In my extended family, there are relatives who don't care at all (in fact there've been quite a few mixed-marriages) as well as others who seem quite wrapped up in the whole thing. I myself went through a phase in high school where I got really proud, and was determined to only marry a girl from my own caste one day...that phase was over by college. Among my friends (mostly 2nd gen), opinions seem to differ. One of my friends came back from vacation in India recently, and this is what he said..."I think the whole caste-system is going down the tubes...people in my caste are marrying whoever they feel like. It's such a shame....people have preserved these genes for hundreds of years."

Thanks to everyone for the info about going to temples. I think I am going to try it out. :0)

And, as a side note, since so many here brought up that Sikhism is so progressive, has any one struggled with the fact that almost all of the Sikh gurus were of the Khatri caste ( I think it is 8 or 9 out of 10)?

All were khatri. I don't think that in any way impacts on the progressiveness.

....people have preserved these genes for hundreds of years."

What a statement! Maybe some scholars on this blog can support this, but my understanding was that caste was actually a lot more fluid in the past and plenty of mixing going on.

. It's such a shame....people have preserved these genes for hundreds of years.

oh, boo. you know what you should tell him? it is a zero sum world, he can keep the inbreeding coefficient up by hittin' it with his sis. hot dog! she so pure!

I am with Sonia. My kids will never be taught to have pre-conceived notions about a person based on caste/race/sexuality/socioeconomic status etc.

I don't think anyone sets out saying, "Ok son, this here is the caste heirarchy... on the top there are...X's, on the bottom there are Y's, on the..." These sort of things are taught in a very implied and subtextual manner. Additionally, I still see caste in the states as mostly a compatibility characteristic rather than a superior/inferior demarcation. Because in the states, there's no infrastructure or institutional girth to execute caste discrimination in any real way.

Thanks very much for your informative comments, DCP Kunal Singh. I do find it interesting that with Sikhs, the caste values seem to have become inverted...that is, the caste associated with agricultural work/working class life/rural life is elevated over the educated city-slicker. Am I misinterpreting things?

Did you see Gaddar? Would the hero have been 'bhappa' or Jatt? He was a truck driver, I think.

All were khatri. I don't think that in any way impacts on the progressiveness.

Why do you think so? Don't you think this sends a message to the followers that one group is more superior than the other? And, I'm not trying to start anything. Just interested in how people feel about this.

Maybe some scholars on this blog can support this, but my understanding was that caste was actually a lot more fluid in the past and plenty of mixing going on.

there are correlations between castes and genes. that is, there is a correspondence between ancestry and caste identity. but, it is imperfect, and there seems to have been a fair amount of intermarriage. remember, on the scale of thousands of years a 1% proportion of outmarriage can be genetically extremely significant. specifically, the practice of hypergamy, low status women marrying into higher status lineages (which is cross-cultural, not a brown thang) has left a definite impact on higher castes (whose female descent lines are far more similar to lower castes than their male descent lines).

he can keep the inbreeding coefficient up by hittin' it with his sis. hot dog! she so pure!

wouldnt there be ret**ds, sorry, mentally impaired offsprings after a while?

inbreeding depression would kick in immediately. in fact, hittin' it with the pure sis would increase miscarriage probability A LOT. one must make sacrifices to keep the cross-eyed blood pure!

It’s so insidious, the way this need to inform others of where we are in some dated hierarchy persists. Right now, we need to ask ourselves ... why?

Identity and comfort have a lot to do with it. What was once a dated hierarchy is now an identity unto itself, regardless of position on the proverbial rung. In the East, much less India, caste and sects have a lot more to do with cultural leanings, rituals and habits (more so than in the US, or the west in general). Also, I'm proud to be TamBrahm, not because of misbegotten notions like "we are Brahmins, we are closest to god," I'm more educated than non-Brahmins or keeper of the religious texts, but because that - Sanskritized Tamil, Vedic texts, 9 yard saris, etc. - is what I culturally know best, enjoy learning and offers me the most solace in times of need. It didn't stop me from being an avid carnivore and marrying a Lutheran midwestern farmer's son.

For others, it has a lot to do with identity, comfort and making mummy, daddy, aunty, uncle happy.

As for those who think caste is evil, perhaps talking about it may put millenia of misperception and wrongdoing aside. Hindu castes were not set up as birthrights - they were merely job groups that every society needs. That it became a stupid hierarchical thing is sad, sad, sad, but society still needs the working class, businesspeople, warriors and thinkers, meaning a society cannot work on just one vocation or economic group. This is what India has reattained in the 20th and 21st centuries, for the most part, but the identities and tangible cultural habits persist.

People who go to extremes to maintain their caste as sole identity are merely insecure and ripe for self-examination. Then again, I will fight against a possible cultural extermination of my beliefs and culture as they have the right to exist as any other way of life does.

In the end, how different is all this from the Boston Brahmins, in whose home of bean and cod, the Lowells talk only to the Cabots and the Cabots talk only to God? Or from New Orleans Creoles (don't call them "black") won't let their own mixed children marry anyone darker than themselves?

First of all, Anna, nice post, and more power to you and the Jakara folks, and props to all the commentators. This is a great discussion.

Now I put on my amateur anthro-socio hat. I think, to understand why caste and caste consciousness (even discrimination) persists, one needs to understand why it arises in the first place. My view is, it arises to insure against complete reproductive failure at an individual level. In much the same way that cliques arise to prevent complete social failure, that tribes arise to prevent complete biological-economic failure, or that gangs arise to prevent, well, total physical failure.

A form of socio-biological organization being necessary, a tradeoff is worked out - reduce individual mate choice from the most fit (tallest, prettiest, richest, etc) by restricting them to mate from within the pool, and reducing the risk from the least fit (short, fat, 'ugly' etc) that they will never reproduce. And thus a form of endogamy arises - biological caste.

But, since this will eventually decrease genetic variety, and inbreeding and related genetic disorders will propagate etc, some rules are worked out, under some systems, for selective exogamy. One way is by introducing a hierarchy of castes. Hierarchy within castes can also arise to ensure success in socio-economic competition (not just prevent failure) - and castes will form alliances to put down others ('Brahmins' and 'Rajputs' vs 'the Others', for example).

Since religion arises for other reasons - caste systems can survive wholesale within new religious systems, as long as the fundamental socio-economic rules (inter-generational capital transfer - mainly inheritance) don't change. For this same reason, castes can survive large scale ethnic group migration. New castes, can, however, form when there are new, persisting, changes in socio-economic circumstances. In India, for example, the IT workers may well come to constitute a new caste.

Caste groupings that are the most successful in achieving success along the greatest number of dimensions will persist the longest. Others will morph, be subsumed, will reorganize, or just die out. Those that last long also generate cultural capital - music, cuisine, philosophy, literature, religious-ideology supporting the system etc, so that then becomes another reason they will persist.

So caste ('endogamous groupings supported by cultural, financial, social and ideological capital') will tend to indefinitely survive, in some form, as long as fundamental biological and socio-economic rules don't change. Immigration changes some things, but the fundamentals of living - biological and socio-economic are mostly the same. When these are different, for example, when they change the balance between the chance for an individual to succeed by himself/herself versus succeeding only as a member of a group - then immigration can reduce or increase the form and rate of caste survival.

This doesn't mean we don't try to understand why caste happens and persists, try to ameliorate it's worst depredations, or try to counteract the worst implications of its supporting ideologies.

So I once again salute Anna for the thought-provoking post, the commentators for the fine discussion, and the Jakara folks for what they are trying to do.

I am with Sonia. My kids will never be taught to have pre-conceived notions about a person based on caste/race/sexuality/socioeconomic status etc.

Yeah, but we're going to teach our kids the important ways to discriminate. Like, my husband has already decided that no kid of ours will ever date a Packers fan! ;)

In the end, how different is all this from the Boston Brahmins, in whose home of bean and cod, the Lowells talk only to the Cabots and the Cabots talk only to God? Or from New Orleans Creoles (don't call them "black") won't let their own mixed children marry anyone darker than themselves?

it isn't different, and is equally pernicious. and pathetic.

A form of socio-biological organization being necessary, a tradeoff is worked out - reduce individual mate choice from the most fit (tallest, prettiest, richest, etc) by restricting them to mate from within the pool, and reducing the risk from the least fit (short, fat, 'ugly' etc) that they will never reproduce. And thus a form of endogamy arises - biological caste.

i don't want to get too nerdy, but please note that biological group selection is far more problematic than culture group selection. more here.

"I don't know where these children got all this nappy hair from.

It must be your father's side of the family.

We are..."

"I know Mom, say it with me-Pura Castilian blood!"

Sheesh.

That's ok, hema, because my yet non-existent kids will be disqualified from the will if they root for any team other than the Packers. You betcha! I envision a Montague-Capulet / Jets-Sharks scenario in the works already.

It just saddens and sickens me when people (and I have seen this in my own family) use it to put people other people down.

“We are Brahmins therefore we are honest doing god work, they are hindu jains, look at them all rich, they must have lied and been sly to earn their millions”.

These same Brahmins would be willing to outcast their own sister for having a Punjabi boyfriend.

Thanks DCP Kunal Singh. Cool initials btw.
Thanks for the laffs, Razib @ 77. See Preacher. Blasphemy + Inbreeding + Violence.

These same Brahmins would be willing to outcast their own sister for having a Punjabi boyfriend.

This doesn't mean all Brahmins behave in such a fashion. Derogatory generalization of any sect is as stinky as general discrimination.

As my mom says, "if people invoke the label of Brahmin to put other people down, they aren't really Brahmin.

amardeep

parshad, given as acceptance of the guru's hukam, is traditionally given to the panj piaray, as symbolic of the khalsa, before it is distributed to the rest of the sangat. because in this day and age, there often is not a panj present everytime there is bhog, the custom is not practiced in many of our new-age gurdwaras, though that is the tradition that has been followed for centuries.

it is not traditionally separately prepared however. i hope that was just a wrong assumption and not actually practiced at the gurdwara you visited.

----

other than that, culture is a living force. while caste has grown to be a deeply ingrained aspect of south asian society, we can shape the immediate culture we are living in.

a while ago i was getting along swimmingly with a prospective biodata chap, when he suddenly began to hound me on my caste. i told him i don't believe in belonging to a caste and don't practice it and so i refused to divulge the information to him. it is my own personal way of killing off this relic from a system developed to divide, isolate, and denigrate.

not to mention that i really don't understand why it matters if my ancestors farmed and lived in a village during the last few decades or if they farmed and lived in a village a few centuries past. ultimately we're all the evolutionary grandkids of monkeys!

no kid of ours will ever date a Packers fan!

So you don't worship at the church of Favre

So you don't worship at the church of Favre

It was the church of Lombardi (after whom the trophy was named *ahem*) long before Apostle Favre came along, although I've been meaning to have a word with young Brett lately.

I have to say that I can't really relate to this thread. I had no idea what my caste was until I was in 9th grade and my social studies class was studying India. My dad mentioned our caste in passing one night, but I can honestly say that I haven't thought about it much since then and always thought most ABCDs felt the same way about caste. I don't even identify myself as having a caste because I am American and I can't imagine anyone ever caring about my caste identity (only one person has asked me about it in my 26 years on earth, and I didn't know the answer when I was asked) and I can't imagine being friends with anyone who did care. Plus, the caste system is as un-American as it gets and I've always felt that being American was a huge part of my identity and that it was one that couldn't coexist with a caste identity.

This post also reminded me of why I am sometimes reluctant to make friends with other Indians/Hindus/South Asians. I honestly can't imagine saying anything about caste and wouldn't know how to react if someone made remarks like the ones you all detailed here in my hearing. The saddest part of the immigrant experience is the loss of cultural identity and family ties, but it also leads to most exhilirating part of the immigrant experience- the chance to create something brand new and to have children that won't be stifled by the rules and demands that were placed on our parents and grandparents. (Cue the violins :)......

My parents never brought up caste...it was ME who asked them what caste we were, probably in 2nd or 3rd grade, because that's when I learned in school (in New Jersey) that India has a caste system. I remember being very happy to learn that we were from a 'warrior' caste.

i was the same way amitabh - i didn't really pay too much attention to caste until i asked my parents. and i remember being vaguely pleased at our "level." the next time it came up i was in college in a hindu philosophy class and a (white) classmate asked me what caste i was. i pointed to it on the page and he acted so shocked like "nooo waay really?" it was a weird thing to be awed by because it didn't really have any relevance to my life.

Anyone been asked what their caste was by a non-South Asian - like a white American?

Anyone been asked what their caste was by a non-South Asian - like a white American?

Sure, many times. I find that most Americans are seriously misinformed about the caste system (or caste non-system), and I use the question as a way of satisfying their curiosity while also trying to demystify the whole thing. Of course, I try to make it clear that the system has no personal value for me...

...or maybe the whole thing is just my attempt to rationalize what cannot be properly rationalized.

“As my mom says, "if people invoke the label of Brahmin to put other people down, they aren't really Brahmin”.

Very much agree, and it is just certain members, and there is no guarantee that their children will grow up with the same beliefs.

It is just frustrating because I am seeing it everyday. Good hearted people that go out of their way to help others get shitted on, all because “we are of a higher caste therefore you are third class”.

I wish these people would stop using God, religion and caste and just admit that they’re arsehols.

they are hindu jains

This sounds like something yogi berra would say... "Give it to me straight up, with a little ice"

And, as a side note, since so many here brought up that Sikhism is so progressive, has any one struggled with the fact that almost all of the Sikh gurus were of the Khatri caste ( I think it is 8 or 9 out of 10)?

Hmm, since the Gurus themselves told us we shouldn't differentiate based on caste and that all should be considered equal, how does this question have any relevance?

Hmm, since the Gurus themselves told us we shouldn't differentiate based on caste and that all should be considered equal, how does this question have any relevance?

Because saying something and doing it are two different things.

The saddest part of the immigrant experience is the loss of cultural identity and family ties, but it also leads to most exhilirating part of the immigrant experience - the chance to create something brand new and to have children that won't be stifled by the rules and demands that were placed on our parents and grandparents

This is a good analysis, Lakshmi. Simple and true. However, I have to disagree with you on "the caste system is as un-American as it gets" -- just look around, I mean, really look around. Visit urban centers, suburban segregation and the American south - the caste system is alive and well here, even though it's not called Chettiars vs. Naidus. Every society creates a hierarchy as it ages ... that's the drawback of growing old and not necessarily growing up.

I think its very relevant --- For example, the fact that we've never had a black president or a woman president in this country, kindof mitigates American ideals of equality and equal access.

Plus, the caste system is as un-American as it gets and I've always felt that being American

Total bullshit. Class based discrimination exists here just the same, the thing is, there's a high correlation to race-based discrimination and that tends to occupy the discussion. It was only a matter of time until the discussion turned into "America! America! rah rah rah! yeaaaa red white and blue!"

Sorry let me be more clear - my post was in response to:

And, as a side note, since so many here brought up that