Depressing.

M. Nam

this is tragic.
so utterly tragic.

Does anyone have stats on the prevalence of domestic violence in the immigrant South Asian community vis a vis the 'mainstream' community? It seems to me that every other day I hear about something like this among South Asians..

Does anyone have stats on the prevalence of domestic violence in the immigrant South Asian community vis a vis the 'mainstream' community? It seems to me that every other day I hear about something like this among South Asians..

I've never seen any. It's hard enough to find reliable stats for the USA and India, let alone for smaller countries or minority groups.

so sad! another casualty of misogyny and patriarchy. my heart goes out to the family.

This is nauseating.

Domestic violence stories seem to be increasing in popularity in the news media. I've heard of a few other cases like this recently; a new tactic to inject American society with fear and judgment, perhaps?

What a depressing story. Poor girl. Poor family.

It seems to me that every other day I hear about something like this among South Asians..

I haven't seen any statistics specifically breaking down the incidence of domestic violence by immigrant community, but there seems to be a higher trend towards domestic violence among Asian immigrants generally (South Asians, and South East Asians).

Margaret Abraham published a book about 10 years on domestic violence within the South Asian community: Speaking the Unspeakable

Here in Vancouver between October and March, 4 punjabi women were killed and a 5th one was put in a coma by there husbands. After these women died, it came out that all these women were in unhappy marriages and wanted to leave them, but could not due to the shame that is brought upon women if they get a divorce in the punjabi community.

CB --- I wonder the same, but I also wonder if it's that we're more sensitive to stories like this as a minority.

And get too defensive for fear of negative stereotyping instead of confronting it, I should add.

And get too defensive for fear of negative stereotyping instead of confronting it, I should add.

I dunno, Snapper, this story just felt very American to me. I know it's tied to larger issues in our community, but it's the kind of tragedy that I think most Americans would feel could happen in any American community. College student dates older possessive cop ...

SAKHI has some data based on their work in the NY area here

When it comes to violence against women in the south asian and other minority groups in western coutries, I feel that women rights group have failed them.

Part of the problem is they hard afraid of saying anything negative about the culture of these groups. It part of that stupid white guilt crap, that there afraid to criticize anything, cause they afraid of being called racist. No matter how sexist or backward some of these cultural beliefs may be concerning the role of women in some immigrant cultures.

I dunno, Snapper, this story just felt very American to me. I know it's tied to larger issues in our community, but it's the kind of tragedy that I think most Americans would feel could happen in any American community. College student dates older possessive cop ...

I understand Ennis. It happens everywhere.

I feel that women rights group have failed them.

I think that's more than a little unfair. Domestic violence community workers have typically been extremely sensitive about culture-dependent abuse. They do criticize what they see as excessive paternalism that contributes to the control-controlled dynamic, which is apparently at the root of most violent domestic relationships. They provide services where immigrant women can come talk to people who will understand their cultural problems, etc.

Unfortunately, more often than not, the cultural issues that make these women more susceptible to domestic abuse also make it more difficult for them to contact advocacy groups. A women's rights group can't hold a figurative gun to a woman's head and make her report the abuse. People in the community that the woman belongs to need to take a more proactive approach, IMO.

it's the kind of tragedy that I think most Americans would feel could happen in any American community. College student dates older possessive cop ...

A 22-year-old should not be going out with a 37-year-old. He was closer to her father's age. He was ready to settle down, she was ready to spread her wings.

Yes this murder has very little to with the couple desi background.

My last comment may have been a little harsh. But some of the stuff I've seen since moving to Vancouver in my own community is really sad. I can't recall how many times I've heard stories about women who have been in marriages where there husbands abuse them, yet the women own family blame them and want them to work things out.

yet the women own family blame them and want them to work things out.

I can see that, and it's not limited to just immigrant communities either. Family dynamics for domestic violence victims can be very complicated. When you're on the outside, it's easy to say "oh my god, why don't you leave him?" But for the woman actually enduring the abuse, it's never that simple.

If there are kids involved, she may want to keep the family unit together. Often, their partners will be able to convince them that they've changed and everything will be different now. Of course, things usually aren't different, and at some point, the woman breaks down and leaves. But it would shock most people to know just how much abuse women endure before they reach that breaking point.

Divorce is word that in South Asian community that makes people feel uncomfortable.

I bet almost every here at a south asian social event that lives in the west has heard the aunties talk about how the mainstream/white community get divorce 50% of the time and how our way is better. Also that why you marry someone from you own community cause if you marry a white person they when things get hard they will leave you. Also if any south asian couple gets a divorce, the aunties will blame the women.

Clueless @ 13 and 18,
I'm not criticising you. But if I got a dollar every time I heard that one.
My mom (back in Desh) is a member of such group for over 25 years. She has heard many variations of I feel that women rights group have failed them from family and neighbours of victims, the press, and of course the politicians. Because you know only an underfunded org. could've helped the poor victims.

clueless, I wouldn't agree with the women's rights groups 'failing' women of minority communities, but I do see what you are getting at. It is true, particularly in a culture of PC-ness, that some westerners are afraid to judge others for things they might find odd, but tally up to cultural differences. In criminal law, this issue of 'cultural defence' is particularly controversial. one of the first cases using this defense involved a Japanese mother, who committed an honor killing by walking into the Pacific Ocean with her two young children. The reason why this is so controversial is because there seems to be dissent within the communities themselves as to what can be related back to the culture. It would be hard to have a strong cultural defense if your own community doesn't agree that this is part of the culture. Simplistically, you could ask whether this would be a punishable crime 'back home.' In reality, this is extremely frustrating when you add in worldwide travel and immigration. It is even harder for women who finally move to a country where they have greater freedoms, but are unable to enjoy them fully because of domestic/cultural restraints. I know this a bit off-topic, but even if this scenario does not apply to the particular case at hand, it is relevant in similar cases. And not that such details were mentioned, or existed, but cultural ideas of relationships, love, and gender roles often prevent the women from viewing themselves as victims and seeking help. It is a very sad cycle. I really felt my heart sinking when I read this post - not because of any desi aspect, but because things like this should not happen in any country, or culture.

A 22-year-old should not be going out with a 37-year-old. He was closer to her father's age. He was ready to settle down, she was ready to spread her wings.

i believe this has little to do with being at different places in life. i suspect that sweet guiatree, like the majority of women in abusive relationships, was all too familiar with controlling behavior from the males around her.

suspect that sweet guiatree, like the majority of women in abusive relationships, was all too familiar with controlling behavior from the males around her.

In a part of the article that I didn't quote directly, her family disliked his behavior and even spoke to his relatives to try to get him to stop being so controlling. I don't know if there is evidence for your hypothesis.

This is incredibly sad.

I first thought was that this was one of those many stories of an possessive boyfriend, but I find myself agreeing with Ennis. I guess the age difference is a huge issue. Maybe seeking professional help may have been a taboo topic for the guy not only because he is desi but as a police officer too.

I can never imagine what the father is going through, I pray that he finds some sort of peace someday.

Just horrific. I've had family members call me and ask for advice b/c there spouse is beating them. I stay on the phone for hours. I try to provide resources. So far it has done NO good. It's depressing.

Part of the problem is they hard afraid of saying anything negative about the culture of these groups. It part of that stupid white guilt crap, that there afraid to criticize anything, cause they afraid of being called racist. No matter how sexist or backward some of these cultural beliefs may be concerning the role of women in some immigrant cultures.

Some context here.

This has recently been in the news in Canada that law & order mechanisms are muzzled through allegations of racism by the wingnut Sikh community in British Columbia. Air India bombers like Parmar (an Air India bomber) are feted publicly, and Canadian news periodically report instances where the "family" has stayed mum even when abuse is overt. Nobody 'outside' the community seems to have the balls to step up. I for one am appalled that such people are not smacked down by Canadian authorities. This isnt multiculturalism at work. It is a society being held hostage. Those who question cultural malpractices are either shouted down or told to mind their own business. Change has to happen from within the community itself, and it is happening. Still, I resent the idea that a community is a hermetically sealed entity, impenetrable and unbudgeable to outside commentary, opinion, or law. I respect Quebec for bringing the hammer down on the niqab for that matter.

Point being, there is a context to what clueless said. pay hEed.

Ennis,

Would you mind putting up a different picture of her? Like one of her alone- its available in the links. It must make the family feel so much worse seeing that murderer's picture with her.

Just a thought..don't know how others feel.

This is terrible. As sort of a tangential curiosity, is her name "Guiatree" an obfuscation of the name "Gayatri", sort of like how many Guyanese have the name "Persaud" as it's a deviation from "Prasad"

A friend of mine is named Prasad, and many a white folk have mangled it to "Persaud" or "Persad."

This sad story was two pages behind another sad South Asian story in NYC this past weekend. A woman was mowed down by a hit and run driver in Long Island as she stepped outside her house with her husband. They buried her on mother's day. It was awful to read.

Part of the problem is they hard afraid of saying anything negative about the culture of these groups. It part of that stupid white guilt crap, that there afraid to criticize anything, cause they afraid of being called racist. No matter how sexist or backward some of these cultural beliefs may be concerning the role of women in some immigrant cultures.

You are wrong. Domestic violence is an unfortunate phenomen that affects every race and DV workers work overtime to help women and have a lot of sensitivity towards cultural differences. South Asian culture isn't big on going outside the home for help and add to that guilt and baggage the victim carries for what is happening to her can be a very complex situation. So often these women go back to their men because of fear of being out on their own. DV workers can only do so much, they can help you if you want their help.

I met a girl in undergrad who had married an abuser, one that was twice her age. I met her through a friend and was concerned when she told us over lunch how her husband has beat her to a pulp that the police have pictures of her bruised body. In fact, her husband told her before they married that if he were a woman, he wouldn't marry him. (Not sure why this didn't raise a huge red flag...) I offered to help her get out by having her move into our apartment. Her parents were distraught with what she was going through. Her father had become half a man...and her mother constantly worried. I thought she would truly get out as she was getting her degree and could find solace. She was trying to get help from the Imam as well...who told her she shouldn't leave him so easily. I wanted to help and tried to do all I could...as it got closer to graduation, I realized she constantly lied to me. Not sure why...what was I going to do? She was still seeing the bastard...we lost touch after I graduated b/c as I realized there was not much I could do for her...she didn't seem to want to leave the situation. I heard from a friend that she moved back in with the bastard...had gotten pregnant but decided to have an abortion....I pray she is alive and safe...but am not sure. She made the choice to stay despite all evidence to the contrary...

This is very sad. If anyone is interested in helping women like Guiatree I know that there are several domestic violence orgs out there that focus specifically on helping South Asian women. Sakhi (http://www.sakhi.org/) is one in the NYC metro area.

Dear Clueless:

When it comes to violence against women in the south asian and other minority groups in western coutries, I feel that women rights group have failed them.

After volunteering at Maitri (www.maitri.org) for 14 years in the Bay Area, I take vehement exception to your statement. The MAIN problem is our own community...right from attacking young women like Anna on this blog to auntjis and unclejis talking major bs about our culture and how arranged marriages are superior to "love" marriages and how our culture worships the female goddess therefore there can no discrimmination against women. As the joke goes, if I had a dollar everytime someone told me about the superiority of the desi culture vs. the mainstream one here in the US, I would be a billionaire by now. (And, don't get me started on the fact India, Pakistan, and B'desh have had women prime ministers. What the fxxk does that prove?)

The total lack of community support for women to leave violent marriages or relationships due to the shame factor, the total support of the community of violent men so that they can get married again and again (we have had atleast half a dozen cases at Maitri where we have worked with the first, second, and third wife of the same axxhole), the fact that doctors in the Vancouver and Toronto are doing a roaring business with sex selection...these white doctors know how to say in Punjabi if it's a girl or boy.

Please spare me the finger pointing at the mainstream community until we fix our own community. In Maitri, we have had huge support from the mainstream agencies, churches, and police whereas only distrust, blame, and shame from the local mandirs, gurdwaras, and the desi community.

Sonya

In my previous post, I forgot to mention the statistics for desis (the rant took off with me).

All of the studies does in the Asian communities (Chinese, Laotian, Indian, Hmong, Vietnamese) show that domestic violence is equal to or slightly higher than the mainstream nos but is very under reported.

The newer studies done in the last couple of years is show dv to be between 30 and 40 percent as apposed to the 30% for the mainstream community.

Sonya

Sonya - if you've got any links, those would be great. I've previously written posts about the stats on domestic violence in India and domestic violence in Bangladesh in world context. I've never seen the studies you're describing.

After volunteering at Maitri (www.maitri.org) for 14 years in the Bay Area, I take vehement exception to your statement. The MAIN problem is our own community

Sonya, I don't think clueless meant to say that South Asian based rights group have been fruitless, rather that "mainstream" white dominated organizations have had their hands tied, because any help to correct the "Indian savagery" would be regarded as pejorative and racist - a perception cultivated solely by the evil desi hoardes sweeping the nation. Am I right clueless, isn't that what you meant?

In a part of the article that I didn't quote directly, her family disliked his behavior and even spoke to his relatives to try to get him to stop being so controlling. I don't know if there is evidence for your hypothesis.

ennis, was not trying to point fingers at the family. not my intention at all and sincere apologies if that's the way it came across. just trying to point out the fact that we live in a culture (globally) that condones/promotes various types of aggression toward females. it creates a climate ripe for acts like these across cultures.

I agree with Sonya. An Indian family friend's daughter recently died from an act of violence by her American boyfriend. I have heard some Indian women talking behind the family's back--blaming the girl for "going around with her boyfriend" although she was in her 30s, blaming the family for letting her do so, etc. The girl had been in the hospital for a while before she died and the family was too ashamed to tell the community about it because they knew they would be talked about like this. It disgusts me. On top of all their grief and anger, the family should not feel ashamed of their daughter because her boyfriend murdered her. I would not be surprised if more victim-blaming is occurring with this family in certain circles of the South Asian community.

We also need to keep in mind that Clueless is from Vancouver. Canada much like the UK has a very different attitude about multiculturalism and the law. I don't think its fair to compare US domestic violence agencies (which are much less afraid) to call out culture when it comes to domestic violence even when it is unrelated.

cont from above...
to Canadian ones which may not even be willing to understand the cultural components of it. I don't believe domestic violence is a cultural problem but there are definately different cultural ramifications and expressions of the power and control which are at the hear of domestic violence.

“Canada much like the UK has a very different attitude about multiculturalism and the law. I don't think its fair to compare US domestic violence agencies (which are much less afraid) to call out culture when it comes to domestic violence even when it is unrelated”.

Not sure what you mean. But here is a link to a documentary from the bbc a few months back with a few links.

BBC Asian Network

I really hope someone with a better knowledge of the Indo-Caribbean community chimes in here - Paging Floridian!

My sense is that the type of Sikh- or Punjabi culture specific issues that Clueless mentions in the Canadian context do not directly apply to the Indo-Caribs in New York. Ennis and Nina P have already said this - there's nothing here that seems 'desi' other than the affected parties themselves.

It could have happened to anyone else with different ethnicity, and in fact, it has. I found a half-dozen "enraged jealous cop kills girlfriend" type stories - in a very quick search - including one in South Africa which occured just last week, and another one in NYC from 2001. Many of them also involve suicides, and the killer isn't always male.

What I see here is a controlling personality (often bred into cops), an access to guns, a predisposition to suspecting others of not telling the truth, etc, combined with individual circumstances, leading to this kind of tragedy.

Thanks to everyone who provided stats.

Meenakshi, I strongly second your motion to replace the photo with one of Guiatree alone. Very thoughtful and the right thing to do.

Guria and Sonya, I think you're right on the ball. My father was abusive to my mother. I, typically, got into an abusive relationship. After one rather public argument with my ex, my father actually said: 'if you fight with him, who will be able to respect you?' My own father! And to this day, many of my mother's relatives blame her for leaving my father, though they are perfectly aware that he abused her. This collective abuse of women in the South Asian community is the petri dish in which DV can flourish.

It would be nice to see less denial from the desi community, especially desi males.

What I see here is a controlling personality (often bred into cops), an access to guns, a predisposition to suspecting others of not telling the truth, etc, combined with individual circumstances, leading to this kind of tragedy.

I have always wondered what causes a 'suspicious mind'? Is it betrayal of trust in childhood? Is it a result of the 'othering' that happens in transplanted lives?

It would be nice to see less denial from the desi community, especially desi males.

It's really tragic this incident happened, it's also tragic that this discussion has spiraled into yet another indictment on the horrible state of women in India/Indian culture when there's absolutely no indication the incident in question occured as a result of it.

I have always wondered what causes a 'suspicious mind'?

Just a preliminary theory wrt a situation like DV:
Maybe it has something to do with barely understanding your own situation, and not believing that you could even explain the situation to others. So, you believe that there's no way anyone could possibly understand, let alone help. So you keep it to yourself, "suspicious" that, if anyone knew, they would misunderstand and possibly misjudge you. You start to believe (and chain yourself to the belief) that you're alone in your understanding of the situation, that you're alone in your "ability" to help yourself. Ironically, you never end up helping yourself. You just live in fear of your situation, and getting blamed for being in that situation.

It would be nice to see less denial from the desi community, especially desi males.

I agree with the first part here, but not necessarily with the second part. I think it'd be ideal to see less denial (and more support and understanding) among desi victims. I mean, theoretically, if the victims could band together in support and stand up for themselves, we wouldn't see people living with these kinds of abusive circumstances, right?

Just my thoughts.

HMF - how is a discussion of DV in the South Asian community 'tragic'? Can you really have used that term to describe, in one breath, a gruesome killing and a topic in an SM thread? Your apparent detachment is, perhaps, itself tragic. The number of commenters who point out the prevalence of DV in the South Asian community suggests that it deserves attention.

I'm with Ennis, Nina P and JOAT - there is nothing "uniquely" desi about DV. As we've discussed at length on other threads, DV is widespread across communities. The players this time just happen to be desi.

But I'm also with Sonya. While I think there's a good deal of misogyny in the mainstream in the U.S., the misogyny that women face in the desi-American community is staggering. I also don't think it's right to blame women's rights groups -- in many cases these women-led groups are doing all that they can with little formal community support, limited funding, limited staffing, and they are taking on taboo topics. I understand the frustration, but really, we do a lot more good supporting (either by volunteering or funding) the work of organizations that are doing targeted outreach and service-provision and in changing our attitudes than railing against them.

Also, I feel what clueless is saying, but I'm with trollerboi in that the Vancouver community is CRAZY and they have a reputation of being crazy. I don't think they're emblematic, nor are they representative, of many desi communities, Sikh, Punjabi, or otherwise.

It's really tragic this incident happened, it's also tragic that this discussion has spiraled into yet another indictment on the horrible state of women in India/Indian culture when there's absolutely no indication the incident in question occured as a result of it.

HMF,

I understand your point here, but I don't know if you can completely ignore the cultural factors that contribute to news like this, regardless of the girl's background. It's been said previously in this thread that this story doesn't have a particularly "desi" angle to it, other than the fact that the victim and the murderer were desi. In fact, by comparing and contrasting different cultural backgrounds, maybe we can find an instance or two where a girl stands up for herself. Then maybe we can try to get other cultures to adopt that mentality.
I hope that made sense...

I have always wondered what causes a 'suspicious mind'? Is it betrayal of trust in childhood? Is it a result of the 'othering' that happens in transplanted lives?

It could be all of these things - I was only referring to the cop's usual predilection to check, double check, and triple check what someone says, and not believe it simply because they say it. When this type of thing seeps into your personal life, there can be problems, and of course, if taken 'beyond reasonable doubt', can do so even in professional situations.

I was only referring to the cop's usual predilection to check, double check, and triple check what someone says, and not believe it simply because they say it.

But cops don't do this to each other (even when they should). So it's clearly not a broad and undifferentiated characteristic.

That said, in a section of the article I didn't quote directly, their final argument seemed to be over her cell phone - he wanted to examine her SIM card to see who she had called, and she refused. So he was acting jealously and suspiciously right before she was shot.

I think that this is a terrible tragedy. I noticed some comments touching on domestic violence within the South Asian community. I thought I'd take a moment to point out some hope-inspiring information. Chitra Divakaruni (of Mistress of Spices fame) was a co-founder (and is a current board member) of Maitri an organization in the Bay Area that helps South Asian and South Asian American women in various abusive situations (including domestic violence). She also serves on the board of Daya which does the same thing in Houston. If anybody lives in those two areas, I'm sure that they're always looking for volunteers.

I neglected to read the comments carefully and did not see that Sonya had already written about Maitri. Mea culpa and kudos to you, Sonya, for putting so much time into a such a heartbreaking field.

In fact, by comparing and contrasting different cultural backgrounds, maybe we can find an instance or two where a girl stands up for herself. Then maybe we can try to get other cultures to adopt that mentality.I hope that made sense...

I'm sure this wasn't meant this way, but these kinds of statements once again place the blame on women. Not only are we apparently responsible for getting the shit beat out of us by men we are supposed to be able to trust -- brothers, fathers, lovers -- we are also responsible for not being able to stop them.

Sorry, maybe this gets me too heated. I think this murder is awful and horrific, but I HATE hearing folks, especially men, talk about what women aren't doing to "save themselves."

In fact, by comparing and contrasting different cultural backgrounds, maybe we can find an instance or two where a girl stands up for herself.

Hold on here, I think in this case she did stand up for herself. There's not much standing up you can do when someone has a .45 pointed at you.

Also, I feel what clueless is saying, but I'm with trollerboi in that the Vancouver community is CRAZY and they have a reputation of being crazy. I don't think they're emblematic, nor are they representative, of many desi communities, Sikh, Punjabi, or otherwise.

I realize I may have come across as majorly disrespectful up there. There's a major air pocket we've hit in canada around the air india inquiry these days. Cultural sensitivities, rcmp incompetence, general assholery are coming up front. So nerves are a litle raw on the subject of cultural compliance.

That said, just to regain focus on the discussion. At the end of a national talk show around the air indIA inquiry, this commentator said, guys - regardless that the police screwed up, the legal system was taken for a ride, Let's not forget who committed the crime. And that's where it comes back to. There's one fucked up in this scene here. No sense painting a whole community with the brush, even as there is debate on what got this guy fucked up.

Trollerboi -

On topic, please. If we get into the AI bombing, this thread will turn into flames faster than the western forests this time of year. Can we stick to poor Guiatree Hardat, rather than riffing on Clueless' comments out to broader issues?

Not only are we apparently responsible for getting the shit beat out of us by men we are supposed to be able to trust -- brothers, fathers, lovers

I'm with you on the first two. Those relationships are primarily consequence, you're stuck with what you get. The last one is a direct result [much touted by women, is that they are the 'choosers'] of choice, particularly in the west. Of course in an extreme case like this one, resulting in death - a crime has been comitted and whoever committed the crime should be held accountable. But generally speaking, I believe if a woman has made a free-thinking choice in who her lover is, she's partially complicit in the reprecussion.

But generally speaking, I believe if a woman has made a free-thinking choice in who her lover is, she's partially complicit in the reprecussion.

I would have to strongly disagree with this statement. It assumes that the woman choses an abuser he is an abuser. That is probably not likely the case in most situations. Even once the abuse starts it is intersperced with love. The abuser shows love, starts the abuse, apologizes, promises to change, makes up with more love, abuses a little more than before, apologizes, promises to change, makes up with more love, abuses even a little more than before...and so on.

In the mean time the woman has been broke down, isolated, and starts to believe she deserves or she believes that her love may still change him. You would be surprised how easy it is to break a human being down. It could happen to anyone if done right.

if a woman has made a free-thinking choice in who her lover is, she's partially complicit in the reprecussion.

At the ripe and mature age of 20 something she chose to date a police officer. How was she supposed to know she would get shot in front of witnesses for exercising that same choice, namely to leave once she realized what he was really like?

Furthermore, it's really not possible for women to always know what a guy is like (or vice versa for that matter) until later, at which point it might be hard to leave, precisely because of what happened here.

But in general, I can't believe you're finding fault in her behavior here.

Correction to post #59:

It assumes that the woman choses an abuser he is an abuser.

Meant to say "It assumes that the woman choses an abuser knowing he is an abuser"

It assumes that the woman choses an abuser he is an abuser. That is probably not likely the case in most situations.

Ever heard of the "bad boy complex" Such a term wouldn't exist unless the woman was actively making a decision based on his erratic, unpredictable, and deviant characteristics. It's only when those characteristics have turned on her, she cries "fowl" and "victim" I don't buy it, in many of these cases where, again I restate, a free-thinking choice has been made, partial responsibility must be incurred.

In the mean time the woman has been broke down, isolated, and starts to believe she deserves or she believes that her love may still change him.

You're making a lot of convenient assumptions to create a specific situation to bolster your argument.

But in general, I can't believe you're finding fault in her behavior here.

I wasn't, I said in extreme cases like this, she couldn't be held responsible.

My sympathy goes out to the Hardat family.Guyana has seen so much violence in their community, here and abroad.

You're making a lot of convenient assumptions to create a specific situation to bolster your argument.

No not convenient assumptions, just speaking from years of experience with domestic violence victims.

And, I am confused about your comments about bad boys. Are you saying most domestic violence victims (1 out of 4 in the US) chose to go out with men who are "bad boys". Where are you getting that from? Sounds like you're making convenient assumptions to create a specific situation to bolster your argument.

But generally speaking, I believe if a woman has made a free-thinking choice in who her lover is, she's partially complicit in the reprecussion.

If you are getting beat up, the guy who is beating you up has a problem, not you. There are a lot of complicated things that go into how or why a woman might end up with an abusive lover, and oftentimes those things are not of her making. For example, women who live in households where they witness domestic violence or are beat up as children are more likely to end up with an abusive guy. Most abusers are guys you know -- people you would have a drink with who you wouldn't imagine are abusive. Also, it's not like most abusers are sweet on date 1 and then beat the shit out of you on date 2. If it was that stark, I think most women (in the U.S.) would leave these guys early on. Abuse is insidious - it works its way slowly into your life. It might be nasty comments about your weight, your intelligence, your family, your friends, your cooking, every little thing you do that could possibly make you worth disparaging. It could start in the form of neediness or jealousy -- traits that, by themselves, don't necessarily mean a guy is abusive. Maybe one night you asked him to stop doing something while you were making love, and he didn't stop. Things build up, they don't happen overnight.

I bet you ANYTHING, that if all of us were put in a room that was 50% abusers and were just mingling over cocktails we couldn't identify who those guys are. Why? Because they seem normal, well adjusted, charming.

I don't say this to paint women as these doe-eyed stupid powerless victims, but at the same time, women are not to blame for being the survivors of domestic violence.

Additionally, your bad boy hypothesis suggests abusers are visibly different (from their behavior). A bad boy may be wild but that does not suggest he will try to exert power and control over his partner. I doubt most abusers (if you met them) would fit into that category. If they did for instance, you wouldn't find so many Indian women who are married to professionals suffering from domestic violence. I doubt abusers are more prevalent in the "bad boy" category.

A gentle reminder that in almost every other story similar to this which we've blogged, friends and relatives of the deceased eventually find us and then read every comment. I'm not saying that because I want to censor you; I'm saying it because I know some of our newer readers may have not yet experienced one of those shocking moments when a victim's sibling or friend comments, reminding us that these are real human lives, not abstract concepts whom we are dissecting.

My thoughts and prayers are with Guiatree's family, especially her Father...and for all who have suffered the effects of DV. As someone who was in a physically abusive relationship, I cringe at words like "complicit"...I know it doesn't make sense from the outside, but please don't blame these women for not doing what seems obvious to us. Life is never that easy, is it?

HMF

I find these words you wrote...

Those relationships are primarily consequence, you're stuck with what you get. The last one is a direct result [much touted by women, is that they are the 'choosers'] of choice, particularly in the west. Of course in an extreme case like this one, resulting in death - a crime has been comitted and whoever committed the crime should be held accountable. But generally speaking, I believe if a woman has made a free-thinking choice in who her lover is, she's partially complicit in the reprecussion.

to be callous, heartbreakingly sad, unsympathetic and one need not go further in discussion to understand how it is women, men, and children are abused beaten, tortured, shot, and killed not just here but in every culture.

sp

Sonya

Such a term wouldn't exist unless the woman was actively making a decision based on his erratic, unpredictable, and deviant characteristics.

Yes, b/c slang is of course a completely scientific and accurate reflection of all social phenomena, and all individual stories boil down perfectly to the phenomena perfectly encapsulated by such slang.

Guiatree Hardat's father praised his daughter as a kind, loving and gentle woman, saying she attended Queens College and wanted to become a math teacher.

I'm so sorry for the loss of her. New country, new dreams, new ambitions. . .her family is in my thoughts and prayers, and I hope they can find some comfort in the memory of her beauty and spirit, staying somewhere more peaceful now.

When I hear horrible news like this piece, I wonder what this world is coming to.

My condolences and sympathy to the beautiful young ladie's family and friends.

It looked like there were warning signs, but the end results only happen in a nightmare. The world lost a much needed teacher. Wonder if the police department noticed any red flags/or violent tendencies in the killer.

Pardon my grammar. I meant to type "lady's" instead of ladie's. Sorry about that.

Has anyone noticed the other desi angle in this story? A DESI COP in NYC?! There can't be too many of those. Not to take away or distract from the main point which is this man's horrible, evil actions.

Although in the main article it says he has other NYPD officers in his family, who wanted to post his bail (which was refused by the judge).

And, I am confused about your comments about bad boys. Are you saying most domestic violence victims (1 out of 4 in the US) chose to go out with men who are "bad boys"

I can't say anything about the statistic you quoted. All I can say is what I've said before.. when a free thinking choice has been made, then partial responsibility must be incurred. I'm not going to quote any numbers, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a woman who seeks out "bad boy qualties" may end up in a situation reminiscent of domestic violence.

I don't say this to paint women as these doe-eyed stupid powerless victims,...

But thats exactly what you're doing. Instead of understanding my point, it's just an attempt to construe it as a "blame the victim! ooga booga!' response, when it in fact is not. You can use words like extremely callous, be blunt, but as someone who has repeatedly witnessed their female friends fall for these "bad boys" then complain that they are indeed "bad", I just scratch my head and go, "huh?"

As for people reading comments regarding this particular case, I've made it clear, both here and here that I find what happened to this lady as abhorrent and extremely tragic.

but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a woman who seeks out "bad boy qualties" may end up in a situation reminiscent of domestic violence.

Then why are rates of domestic violence the same for professional women? Why are the rates of domestic violence the same for women who have arranged marriages? Bay boy qualities have nothing to do with abusers. I doubt most bad boys are abusers. If they were only the women in relationships with such women would face domestic violence. But rates of domestic violence are very similar irregardless of economics and culture. The point you are trying to make is nonsense.

HMF, while what you say about women being attracted to "men with variety and excitement" is a common phenomenon (you can choose to call them bad boys if it helps your argument) what is irritating is your insistance that when a woman does wake up to DV one day that it's simply easy to walk away or that she chooses to be with a man knowing fully well that he's the bad guy.

I was in just such a relationship for 5 years and he happened to be a NYPD Detective and you know what that relationship spiraled out of control before my eyes without me being able to do anything about it or gain control of my life. I'm educated, smart, independent, know better and have doled out plenty of advice to other women in similar situations, advice that was crystal clear to me. If someone had told me when I entered the relationship that it would end up that way I'd have laughed at them. Not to me.

It took an entire year of intervention from friends and family and a leave of absence from work to end that relationship and it took me years to get over it. It's easy to explain something that might appear black and white to you because you've never experienced it but I strongly suggest opening yourself up to understanding what causes these things so often.

You can use words like extremely callous, be blunt, but as someone who has repeatedly witnessed their female friends fall for these "bad boys" then complain that they are indeed "bad", I just scratch my head and go, "huh?"

Actually, the "bad boy" scenario is less common in domestic abuse cases than you might guess. More often than not, DV victims had no idea at the outset that their partners had the sort of personality that might lead to future domestic violence. Of course, in "culture-based violence", women tend not to notice any controlling tendencies, particularly if those tendencies are common in the community. This seems to be the case with many Native American women, for example.

Plus, a woman's investment in a relationship makes it very difficult to leave and move on, when the violent behavior does manifest itself. A lot of domestic abuse begins in ways that don't seem particularly abusive at the outset. For example, the husband asks the wife to quit her job and stay home to look after the kids. After a while, he says they can't really afford to keep two cars, so she becomes completely dependent on him for mobility. Soon enough, he's controlling all the finances, and she basically has no ability to lead an independent life. Things usually just descend into violence from there.

Bay boy qualities have nothing to do with abusers. I doubt most bad boys are abusers.

That's not true, I'm not sure what you define as "bad boy" but in general I see them as erratic, unkind, unpredictable, closed off, and verbally abusive. I'm not sure what else defines a bad boy? a mohawk and a leather jacket?

If they were only the women in relationships with such women would face domestic violence.

I never said only "bad boys" ie. the ones women are clearly drawn towards are abusers. Again a complete misinterpretation of my comment.

what is irritating is your insistance that when a woman does wake up to DV one day that it's simply easy to walk away or that she chooses to be with a man knowing fully well that he's the bad guy.

Oh, but isn't this type of clarity expected of men? That when he's in a relationship where he's clearly being "played" he should just get up and quit? I too know of instances where smart educated women entered poor relationships, specifically because of the aforementioned badboy qualities. The problem is, the desirable badboy qualties usually come part in parcel with the negative ones. Excitement, unpredictability, and that lack of boredom usually stem from wavering minds, verbal nudges, and self centered-ness.

Ever heard Chris Rock's joke, "The only good relationships are boring ones."... ? There's some truth to it.

For example, the husband asks the wife to quit her job and stay home to look after the kids. After a while, he says they can't really afford to keep two cars, so she becomes completely dependent on him for mobility. Soon enough, he's controlling all the finances, and she basically has no ability to lead an independent life.

Please. if you're classifying this as abuse, I don't know what you expect... Women can make just as unreasonable demands of this nature.. "We need that couch", "I need 3 silk sarees", "You don't take care of me, my mother was right, I shouldn't have married you". Such comments can occur both ways, etc.. etc.. As for leading an independent life, isn't the point of marriage so that neither partner leads a completely independent life?

And then you make a jump from these perceptual differences into violence??

In culture based violence, I make no comment, again I said, free thinking decision. not one where pressures existed in significant amounts to cause the union in the first place.

I too know of instances where smart educated women entered poor relationships, specifically because of the aforementioned badboy qualities. The problem is, the desirable badboy qualties usually come part in parcel with the negative ones. Excitement, unpredictability, and that lack of boredom usually stem from wavering minds, verbal nudges, and self centered-ness.

Are you seriously going to use this analogy to 'explain' domestic violence? My ex never hit me, not once, he was religious, highly educated, had a loving family and was about as exciting as a calculator when I met him. This is why it's irritating to hear people justify the clarity they apparently seem to think DV situations have.

Please. if you're classifying this as abuse, I don't know what you expect...

That's exactly my point...that domestic violence begins with scenarios that seem completely innocent and innocuous. But these situations can quickly accelerate into domestic abuse, when particular provocations are applied. Ultimately, domestic violence isn't just about physical abuse. It is a dynamic where one partner attempts to completely control the other, and one way to do this is to render the other partner completely helpless and completely dependent (no access to transport, health insurance, family funds, etc). You're pretty only one or two stages away from serious physical abuse at that point.

With immigrants, it is common for husbands to threaten their wives with immigration consequences, as in "I'll make sure you get deported, if you tell the police I beat you." What is the woman supposed to do in such situations?

Women can make just as unreasonable demands of this nature.. "We need that couch", "I need 3 silk sarees"

Sorry, but that's simply not the same as a man telling a woman "you know what, I don't think you should have access to our bank account anymore, because I don't trust you to make smart money decisions." I don't know how you can rationally equate the complete lack of access to any mode of independence that I was suggesting with normal demands that people make of each other.

As for leading an independent life, isn't the point of marriage so that neither partner leads a completely independent life?

Personally, I think the point of marriage is that you share your life with another person, and there is no real loss of independence, other than the (IMO minor) adjustments to your life you accept as a normal consequence (like the whole shared bathroom thing...let me tell you, that was pretty hard to get used to for me). This is a voluntary loss of independence, if at all.

But the sort of loss of independence that happens in DV cases is where the woman has the ability to do even simple daily tasks taken from her, by a controlling spouse...a spouse who wants to ensure she cannot so much as go grocery shopping by herself. Do you not see a difference in the dynamic?

It is a dynamic where one partner attempts to completely control the other,

I find it hard to believe that such strong behavior isn't "receivable" by women who have taken the time to use their powerful intuitive insights to assess character. Anyhow, my point from earlier still stands. The abuse received from fathers, brothers, and forced husbands cannot be taken in the same light as abuse received from willing, chosen partners, in particular where the woman has had her full faculties (ie not being coerced) in making the decision.

With immigrants, it is common for husbands to threaten their wives with immigration consequences, as in "I'll make sure you get deported, if you tell the police I beat you."

THis is a special case. You cannot take a special case and make it as a norm.

THis is a special case. You cannot take a special case and make it as a norm.

But the control dynamic is exactly the same. In a non-immigrant situation, the threat is usually something like "report me, and you'll never see your children again."

The abuse received from fathers, brothers, and forced husbands cannot be taken in the same light as abuse received from willing, chosen partners, in particular where the woman has had her full faculties (ie not being coerced) in making the decision.

That's what makes abuse by partners so much more complicated and difficult for women, IMO. They know they made the choice and it's a difficult decision to abandon the relationship after making that choice. You can run away from home if your father beats you, but it's a lot harder to run away from the life you have with a partner (such as it is), particularly if there are children involved.

I do pro bono DV representation, and a lot of abuse victims are educated, intelligent women who had no idea their partners were abusive, until they experience the abuse first-hand. I think you're leaning just a little too heavily on the idea that women know that the guys are bad news, but choose to be with them anyway. I think, in most cases, the women don't know they're bad at the outset.

Do you not see a difference in the dynamic?"

I do, but you're thinking specific South Asian, long term marriage cases, where this tends to occur, and in those cases I'd say the woman isn't making a free-thinking decision to enter the relationship in the first place.

a spouse who wants to ensure she cannot so much as go grocery shopping by herself. I'm sorry, I do not see such extreme behavior simply jumping out of the blue. It's telegraphed to some degree, and in a setting where the women have the ability to assess character, they'd be able to notice things this egregious.

I think you're leaning just a little too heavily on the idea that women know that the guys are bad news, but choose to be with them anyway. I think, in most cases, the women don't know they're bad at the outset.

Well, how do you solve the problem then? keep playing victim, or developing skills to engage in early detection. It just seems to me such pathological behavior will show itself, on either end. it seems like such skill development can only help, and not hurt, given the much touted female powers of intuition?

keep playing victim

First, they're not "playing" victim, they actually are victims (and yes, I know you didn't mean it that way, but that particular turn of phrase is something I find truly irksome).

Second, domestic violence advocates do preach detection of the signs, but their audience is largely women who have already seen the signs (usually long after a relationship began) and have already experienced the abuse. As a result, giving women the ability to see the signs is less important than giving them the tools to try to get out of the relationship, and reestablish their own lives.

Has anyone noticed the other desi angle in this story? A DESI COP in NYC?! There can't be too many of those. Not to take away or distract from the main point which is this man's horrible, evil actions.

I can't imagine why.

To be fair, Amric has his job back and there are apparently 140 members in NYPD's Desi Society, so the force can't be that uninviting to the desis. The magazine "The Indian American" (which inexplicably began to arrive in my mail a few months ago, hopefully at no cost to me) just did a major story on 10 or so desi officers in the NYPD. I'd love to link you to it, but the magazine doesn't seem to have an online archive.

hmf, you are a trip. it might behoove you to educate yourself on the psychology of dv survivors, if you are so inclined -- though from your posts, it's clear you feel you're already well-informed. this was the point i was trying to make earlier in the thread. dv survivors are most often also survivors of childhood physical, emotional and/or sexual abuse and trauma. since such violence and controlling behavior were an integral part of life growing up, it's not a stretch to understand that this is what would be appealing in a partner -- something that feels like "home" or familiar (again, i am NOT implying that this was the case with the hardat family--violence against women exists on so many levels in the larger world). clarification: the violence is not what feels like home, it's everything that leads up to it and exists with it: i.e., jealousy on one end of the spectrum feels like love; controlling behavior gets written off as concern for safety and well-being, etc.

also, let's please keep in mind that all people are multi-dimensional. even the most heinous abusers have one or two redeemable qualities. many abusers are simultaneously charmers. they can be kind, generous, funny, vulnerable, and endearing in the moments/days they are not abusive. after all, many have likely been abused themselves.

a lot of survivors of childhood abuse go into various forms of therapy to change their patterns of behavior, unlearn and de-program the effed up messages they've internalized, and find healthier ways of relating to others; many do not for a plethora of reasons (therapy is frowned upon or simply too expensive; they aren't aware of their options; it's utterly too painful to pick through the rubble of their past, etc.)

the only responsibility a survivor of dv has is to take the best care of herself she possibly can under the circumstances. and, as i mentioned, this is often hampered by economics, awareness of/access to options, lack of community and support networks, lack of resources and information. the responsibility for violence against another falls squarely on the shoulders of the person committing it. period. read a few books on it, talk to some people in dv shelters, watch a few documentaries. you might surprise yourself.

First of all. It was a skilfull tactic to turn the subject into long term dv victims, when they've been in long term relationships, and extending dv's definitions far into the periphery of all kinds of abuse. The original comment before the milieu was,

Not only are we apparently responsible for getting the shit beat out of us by men we are supposed to be able to trust -- brothers, fathers, lovers

the context here was clearly physical abuse and in addition...

the word 'lovers' was used instead of spouses, or husbands, the implication with that word is a short term, premarital relationship, 'dating' relationship. So all analysis about things growing over time, etc etc I saw as tangential. And perhaps it was in this context I proceeded. And in that context, I stand by my statement, free thinking based choices have consequences whether they be from male perspective or female perspective.

it's not a stretch to understand that this is what would be appealing in a partner -- something that feels like "home" or familiar

Then those issues need to be dealt with before proceeding into further relationships.

Has anyone noticed the other desi angle in this story? A DESI COP in NYC?! There can't be too many of those. Not to take away or distract from the main point which is this man's horrible, evil actions.

Actually there are quite a few Desi cops in the NYC area. I know of five alone. Most are around my age (27) or younger.

A 22-year-old should not be going out with a 37-year-old. He was closer to her father's age. He was ready to settle down, she was ready to spread her wings

I wholeheartedly agree. There is just fishy about a 37-year-old with a 22-year-old. With such an age difference, it makes me feel like the older person is somehow exercising some control issue or insecurity in that relationship. Or, perhaps even their inability to successfully adapt to the phase in life they should be in. I think that was the first problem. I know some might say 'Age Ain't Nothing But a Number'. Wait, actually Aaliyah said that and she married R.Kelly at 15, so maybe I shouldn't be agreeing with that song.

This book was recommended to me when I started volunteering with ASHA (it was more recent at the time: http://www.amazon.com/Speaking-Unspeakable-Marital-Violence-Immigrants/dp/0813527937)

From the Back Cover

"Domestic violence in immigrant communities has received little attention until now. Speaking the Unspeakable is the first account of South Asian women's experience with domestic violence (defined as physical, sexual, verbal, mental, or economic control perpetrated on a woman by her spouse or extended kin). Abraham explains how immigration status, cultural assumptions, and unfamiliarity with American social, legal, economic, and other institutions-coupled with stereotyping from mainstream society-make these women especially vulnerable to abuse.

Speaking the Unspeakable gives voice to abused South Asian women. Their stories reveal their weaknesses and strengths as they confront domestic violence. By placing these stories within the larger cultural, social, and political context, the author shows the individual strategies of resistance to abusers as well as the pivotal role South Asian organizations play in helping these women escape abusive relationships."

Ok, apparently I have no idea how to link: http://www.amazon.com/Speaking-Unspeakable-Marital-Violence-Immigrants/dp/0813527937

Ultimately, domestic violence isn't just about physical abuse.

Abuse is insidious - it works its way slowly into your life. It might be nasty comments about your weight, your intelligence, your family, your friends, your cooking, every little thing you do that could possibly make you worth disparaging..

Sorry to drag this on, but I just wanted to be clear about this point as well. Verbal abuse of this variety is fully bi-directional, it's just as hurtful for a man to have his intelligence, family and friends disparaged by his wife/girlfriend. Furthermore, it's just as abusive to hear comments implying you don't make enough money, you aren't wealthy enough, you don't know how to manage your money, business, whatever,... these statements, which are routinely made, are equally damaging and hurtful, and make a man feel equally worthless.

And if you happen to be dating her, physical abuse could be very imminent. Of course I understand, this is an extreme case, even borderline caricature... not the norm, however if we're going to open up dv abuse to include non-physical, it's only fair to acknowledge it's bi-directional quality.

"And if you happen to be dating her, physical abuse could be very imminent."

..oh, you dated HER? Explains a lot.

I realize that it's hugely tempting to speculate about all the different sociological implications of an event like this. And that's fine! But this was a personal tragedy. Two individuals. It seems like that often gets lost in the rush to shoehorn the event into an example of whatever political axe one feels best fits the situation.

It makes me uncomfortable to chalk it up to patriarchy, or fear of divorce, or white guilt (!!!). None of us knows what really happened here. All we have are quotes from people who knew her, and even those are inevitably heavily edited and presented in a specific way by reporters and editors. I'm getting really annoyed by the way our society treats any 'shocking' tragedy as symptomatic of a larger problem. Sometimes a crazy boyfriend is just a crazy boyfriend, y'know? It's been happening since we lived in caves, and the psychology is as common in WASP neighborhoods as it is among Desi ones.

That's not to say I'm upset at the blog or any individual poster, though.

lost in the rush to shoehorn the event into an example of whatever political axe one feels best fits the situation.

Ugh man that was a terrible mixed metaphor and I apologize profusely. Yuck :P

On the subject of violence against women.

If you go to cnn.com and search under "browse player" and enter "acid attack" a video pop'