May 23, 2007
Is FOB a fighting word?News
Pream Anandarajah is a Canadian born Tamil teenager whose uninsured Scarborough home was recently firebombed, sending his mother Jeyaluckshmi to the burn unit at the hospital [via UB]. And yes, this was an ethnic attack, but not in the way you might think. His attackers weren’t white, they were Sri Lankan Tamils, but FOBs recent immigrants instead of Canadian born. Is FOB as bad a word as n—er?
That’s right — there’s intragroup gang violence between CBD and recent immigrant Sri Lankan Hindu Tamils, serious violence:
Hours before the firebombing, a friend of Anandarajah’s was stabbed … He rattles off the names of gangs that he says recently arrived Sri Lankan youth have formed: EST (East Side Thugs); BNS; BNS Juniors; Tux Boys (Tuxedo Park); Tiger Boys; Gilders (Gilders Street). [Link]
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The house is now largely destroyed |
Touching his neck he says, “I don’t know how I got this scar. It happened after I was knocked out. They beat me up real bad. My mom couldn’t even recognize my face.” [Link]
One major beef between the groups is the use of the word FOB:
Frequently tossed around in the escalating feud between the groups is a loaded word, used to bully, label and shame. The mostly Tamil Sri Lankan youth around Scarborough who get called FOBs say the word is used as a weapon against them.
”It’s like calling a black man, n——-,” says a Grade 10 student. [Link]
Apparently, that name calling also played a role in the firebombing:
Anandarajah says it was older youths who were responsible for the attack on his house, most of whom either dropped out or have been expelled. “I understand why they’re angry, calling them FOBs. But they took it too far with this…” [Link]
The whole thing seems to be about being “square”. Recent immigrants say they get harassed for not fitting in:
… [Recent immigrants] say the tension begins in high school. They get harassed for playing cricket, having unfashionable hairdos, wearing tight-fitting shirts, too high pants and speaking Tamil. [Link]
Their Canadian born brethren seem to agree. Recent immigrants are just uncool:
“They can’t speak English, they have these weird haircuts,” says Chris, a Grade 12 student at nearby L’Amoreaux Collegiate. “The way they walk and they dress bad. It gives Sri Lankans a bad name, it’s embarrassing.”
One of them blurts out that they’re “fresh off the banana boat, they’re all FOBs, Tiger Boys, and they always will be…” The differences seem minor. Unless you’re in high school. “It’s stupid,” Anandarajah says. “But when we’re playing soccer, why do they have to come over and play cricket? We don’t play cricket here…” [Link]
So what say you? Is FOB a highly offensive term? What term would you prefer? NRI is both exclusionary (doesn’t apply here), and imprecise (to the Indian government I’m both an NRI and an ABD). Is there a different term that works better?
Would you start a fight if you got called a “FOB” ?
ennis on May 23, 2007 12:14 PM in Identity, News · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
I just find the term funny, like it shows the insecurities of people who came up with / use it.
How long is the shelf life of a FOB? When do I get stale?
Recently in a suburb of Toronto (Oakville) a Tamil teen stabbed a Sikh teen to death. But apparently the Sikh teen was no angel either...before he was stabbed he was allegedly instigating others to fight. This took place at a party somewhere. The desi gang problems in Canada seem to be getting worse. What's surprising from your post, Ennis, is that 'FOB' kids can form gangs so fast. And some of this is taking place in relatively nice, suburban areas.
Does it seem like that the desi gang problem is a much bigger problem in Canada and England then it is in the United States. I wonder if this has anything to do with the type of desi immigrants that go to Canada and England compare to the type that go to United States.
In the case of these kids, I would call them "Deported"
i think fob is a little derogatory, but not worth fighting over.
i think you graduate out of the fob label. i mean, seriously, how long can you be "fresh"?
i just had a conversation about this with a friend recently. i think the term gets less offensive the more mature you are. i don't think it's as harsh as the n word, but i can see how it can be offensive. conversely,i've spoken to quite a few recent immigrants who use the term in reference to themselves. i wouldn't go around shouting it randomly to people who have "weird hair cuts" and high-waisted pants, just as i wouldn't point and laugh at someone who is wearing a flannel shirt from the early 90s.
it's the way you say words that make them loaded. i think subtleties matter more than anything else. but that's an english teacher's perspective ;)
--
I wonder if this has anything to do with the type of desi immigrants that go to Canada and England compare to the type that go to United States.
perhaps. and also, it seems that it is easier to live in an insulated brown world in these countries because of proportions, distribution, and to some extent ideology (state supported multiculturalism).
re: "FOB," it is obvious how people could find it offensive, but, it is also pretty ridiculous to compare it to the "n-word." people need to qualify that it might be a little bit like the "n-word" when they want to get across offensiveness, after all, blacks in america have a long history of oppression which new immigrants can't "match." let's give the devil (oppression) his due.
Yes ,I find FOB offensive because it is offensive.
No I would not fight anyone over it .
I prefer the term DBD( desh born desi) as its inclusionary.And I am fair - I use ABD when referring to the 'other'
Yeah it does.
To white people, we're all FOBs.
I think an Indian person (irrespective of when he first arrived, calling another Indian person FOB (with the intent to impugn them as being "less" American") is just plain stupid.
But I saw these tensions only arise during college (as thats when I first saw large groups of 'FOBs' and 'ABCDs' interact, and I'd imagine if they arose during high school, where "cool" has an entire different meaning, violence could erupt.
As for FOB being a slur, really, any word can be a slur if said in a dehumanizing way, like "Go back to India you fucking FOB" but does FOB have the history and legacy of the N-word? no not even close.
It depends on how one uses it. If it is used with the above sentiments it is offensive just like an occasional poster here on SM uses the word to attack the IBDs living here and their supposed ignorance about American culture and their inability to imitate them. But in most other contexts FOB is not an offensive word but a way to describe a set of desis.
I hope this song does not get popular in Canada or their streets will turn red!
You are an NRI and an ABD to the Indian government ? I'm a dual citizen, a legal US citizen (was born here) and I applied for "Indian Overseas Citizenship" and was accepted.. [link]http://www.indianembassy.org/newsite/oci.asp[/link]
I never thought the term was offensive. But it seems that some or a lot of people do. For me it's just easier to not use the term. No use in offending anyone or hurting their feelings.
I would say FOB is offensive, even if it's said teasingly (w/ good intentions) or jokingly. It's definitely not on the same level as the n-word, but I'm not surprised that these guys got into a whole bunch of (seemingly) ridiculous violence because of it. Growing up I saw folks get jumped or get into gun fights over whether or not someone had "dissed" someone else. Sounds ridiculous, but I feel like gang-life has a totally different world view.
I also think it's a little simplistic to blame the prevalance (sp?) of desi gangs in the UK/Canada on the "kinds" of immigrant communities found there. It would be interesting to compare, though, given that there are quite a few desi gangs in the U.S., too, but in my experience largely in poorer areas. Maybe it's not so much where you came from, but socioeconomics, alienation, and where your family settles?
To white people, we're all FOBs
Another great comment by HMF.
Expatriate
FOB is offensive in everyway, considering I never been on an Ocean Liner.
It's very hard to find a name which is cool and inoffensive. Anyway, I'll give it a try.
FOP-Fresh Out of Plane
CoP-Cool Out of Plane
CSA-Crisp South Asian
No offense to yo teenagers but if I know, some more slangs, then I can come up with few more.
'FOB' may not be as bad as the n-word, but is definitely not on the same scale as the counterpart insult 'ABCD'. This might have to do with the way it is said .. 'ABCD' is pronounced 'ay-bee-cee-dee'... 'FOB' is not pronounced 'eff-o-bee' , rather, it is 'FOB!' as in 'you fob!' ... and can sound much more derogatory than 'you ay-bee-cee-dee!' (correct me if i'm wrong, ABDs)
Of course, a lot has to do with the context ... the word 'Indian' in the sentence 'Go back to where you came from, you freaking INDIAN' can be worth a fight if you ask me ! Obviously, the fight was not just about the word 'FOB', but the condescending attitude that came accompanying that word...
Overall , I would definitely not put 'ABCD' and 'FOB' on the same levels ... I would feel pretty insulted described/categorized/called a 'FOB'.
@ennis : "What term would you prefer?"
IBD - Indian born Desi - has been widely used on this forum , and is pretty well known.
It's funny, but I never thought of 'FOB' as a derogatory word. I still don't think it is, actually, but as other people have said, it's the context that is important. And I just love the song 'drop it like a FOB'. ;-)
In part, you're having a moral panic about brown kids being in gangs. Some teenage urban men / boys will alway be attracted to gang culture. Some teenage urban men / boys will always get into fights. Desi youth getting into fights and occasionally stabbing each other is a sign of integration --- into a certain strain of urban youth culture that has always been there, and is shared by white, black and other ethnicities. It stains the model minority narrative so people panic about it.
There has been Tamil gang activity in London for many years --- Scotland Yard set up a special unit to deal with it and it has subsided but is still a problem, and the dynamic for that is much more to do with Tamil Tiger racketeering and the wounded and brutalised orphans and refugees of the civil war having serious social issues.
I think the most interesting thing to take from this story is not 'what does this tell us about the scum who are allowed in to Canada and England as opposed to America', which is really simplistic and uninteresting and fatuous, but how does this reflect the 'pull-the-ladder-up' syndrome of desis living in the West --- ie: as soon as a community becomes established over a few generations and integrated, they start to become hostile to immigrants themselves. This is a definite phenomenon and not only towards 'FOBs' ---- some desis in the UK, ensconsed in the middle class, are hostile to immigrants of any kind, especially Eastern Europeans. It's hard to quantify, but it is a definite phenomenon amongst some desis I know, see, speak to, read of.
i have to agree, FOB is offensive. i know one person (american-born) who uses it as an insult to his other ABD friends - literally uses it in place of someting like 'loser' or 'ass.' i even had a fight with the director of american desi over his dismal portrayal of a character from india, only to be told that 'in my experience, that's how FOBs are.' and last month when i told my parents' friends that i would marry somebody born in india, they were very judgmental and tried to talk me out of it.
generally, i think if you are friends with people born in south asia, you have a tendency not to use the term FOB, because you realize how innaccurate and insulting it is. i think FOB is generally used by people that do not have, or do not seek to have, friends born in south asia.
Red Snapper, I love you :)
Randomizer, I think FOB and ABCD are equally offensive. And I'm with HMF, to "mainstream" America, all desis (and one can argue, API-Americans) are FOBs.
I disagree. I think the C part of it is more derogatory than the whole of FOB. Who gives one the right to call someone else confused?
Hate to say it but bunch of dumb fucking kids with too much time on their hands and no parents around to whoop their asses like my parents would have if I indulged in such dumfuckery. What the hell!!
Yup because the desi parents here would beat you and send you back to India if you tried that shit. And there are bigger and badder gangs here, a desi gangsta would only go so far as his own people, the other real gangstas would bust his ass. Wannabes!
These people who use the term FOB derisively -- their parents and grandparents were once FOBs too, twitching, unsure, getting used to a new world. How soon people forget.
I see it like this ---- those Tamil kids who feel anger at the new Tamils playing cricket feel ashamed because they remind them of the past from which their parents or grandparents sought to escape. Saving face is important to urban teenage men, being cool and having credibility in front of your peers and especially in front of 'gangsters' from other ethnic groups, who will use any opportunity they can to rip you and your people to shreds. FOBs let the side down in that urban macho environment.
If I were to refer to someone as ABCD or FOB to their face, yeah, it's offensive, but it's also in poor taste. So is starting a fight and/or firebombing a house over it, not to mention violent. Where's all the anger coming from? That would be an avenue of social and legislative meditation, huh?
What term would I prefer for someone like me? Indian-American
What term would I prefer for desis who just got here and are planning to stay a while? Indian-American (or if they prefer, Indian Living Abroad)
Where you live does become a part of your identity, like it or not. It behooves some acknowledgement.
Back @ ya Camille!
Honestly I just say desi, as long as you are brown you are desi in my world, where you come from and how long you've been here makes no difference. You could be a LTOBFOB like me or someone born here, you brown you desi!
Check out Sri Lankan Tamil gang crime in London:
Tamil Gang Crime in London
This has to stop and the authorities need to do something.
JOAT - i am not sure it is as simplistic as you present it to be. i think socio-economics plays a big part - the kids in some of these areas may just be surrounded by more violence than in other neighbourhoods, and it is really hard to run away from such an environment altogether. plus, parents might not be around because they have to work longer hours or more jobs than their richer desi counterparts. i am not sure what the statistics of desis in canada are, but supposing they are closer to the desis of england, who are largely working class, than the desis of the US, who are largely professionals (of course, this does not apply to all desis of the relevant countries), you cannot overlook certain environmental factors that come into play. it would be highly unfair to blame it all on the parents, or for that matter, on the kids.
What's the provenance of ABCD? Did it emerge in 1980s Bollywood as a critque of the allegedly deracinated 2gen? From what I understand native Chinese refer to second generation Americans somewhat derisively as "ABCs." And FOB? I suspect that's a term initially used by whites (akin to "boat people" and "banana republic") - a term of scorn for Third Worlders who've made their way here, and thus much more generic.
I'm more curious as to why so many Indian "Gangs" have formed in Canada as opposed to the US. I know that there are more Sikh/Punjabi gangs in Vancouver but this is the first I heard about Tamil Gangs. As for FOB, it's just a word, but humanity is stupid that way. What some find offensive some don't.
@Red Snapper " but how does this reflect the 'pull-the-ladder-up' syndrome of desis living in the West --- ie: as soon as a community becomes established over a few generations and integrated, they start to become hostile to immigrants themselves. "
I think people become hostile to immigrants much, MUCH sooner than a few generations. I'm 'fresh' only by 2 years ... give me a decade here and I am sure that I (and many others who came with me) will start cribbing about how many immigrants are coming to this nation. I know it doesn't speak much of me, but that is the truth right there.
I think it all stems from the following: When we were back in India, the America that we had in our minds was that of a predominantly white, rich, luxurious country. We imagined we would be 'away' from many things Indian, especially the things we didn't like back there- like the rat race, the nosiness into private lives, narrow-mindedness, and so on...
But when we stepped off the plane, we were invited into taxi cabs that were ALL desi, we reached college to find a community of 200-300 desis like us ... everyone spoke hindi, ate rice/curry, and basically had the same attitudes like that back home. While many people like the fact that they don't feel 'out of place' here, a very good number feel that they haven't even traveled to a new country... and more and more immigrants will only make the 'foreign' country less foreign.
I think that is the single most important reason for this animosity towards immigrants, by immigrants .
You're kidding right brownout? Toronto has set up special police units to deal with Tamil crime and Tamil gangs!
FOB is just like any other word used in a derogatory manner - it all depends on who uses it and how. When my ABD friends call me a FOB on my doing something fobby I don't care because I know they are just kidding and in fact I even call them ABCD when something they do something ABCDish and it's good . Even when an ABD I don't know very well uses the term more out of habit and not out of malice, I usually don't mind. But yeah, if an ABD used it as a form of insult(which so far has not happened to me personally) that may cause problems. Given a choice though I think most Fobs would prefer the use of DBD or IBD.
There was a huge influx of working class parents in the 70s and 80s from India, those are the people who worked in motels and had mom and pop shops and held down 3 jobs to send their kids to Harvard and Yale. Why didn't any of us get into the gang culture even when we were exposed to it? I was petrified of my father! In the 90s there was a huge working class migration from Bangladesh into the US mostly north east and most of those kids are also good kids that are doing well. None of these were educated or middle class folks and their kids turned out fine.
I'm not disregarding all the factors nor am I saying that's not possible but parental involvement even if your parent was doing 3 jobs and simple fear contributed to a lot of why my generation never got into that stuff. The pressure to succeed was perhaps higher on my generation being the first generation and we were lesser in numbers so we had to behave. Perhaps the the immigrant enclaves are denser now and they can afford the luxury of no pressure to succeed and can goof off and experience America like an American; I don't know. All I know is no one in my generation I knew had the luxury to screw around like these kids. My dad would have broken my legs seriously.
And Scotland Yard has a special unit to deal with Tamil gang crime in London and has had some success.
JOAT, i am not denying that people in similar soci-economic circumstances reacted in different ways, but if you take those exact same circumstances and put them in a geographical location that already has gangs, which was not the case when we were growing up, but is definitely the case now, even in the states, the turnout might vary.
i think one reason for the gangs in canada (sikh and tamil) and in england (tamil) might have to do with the political aspects of the cultures from which they hail. for instance, are the sikhs in canada associated with khalistan-like movements? likewise, many of the tamils in canada and in london hail from sri lanka. so perhaps, there is some connection with the political fights of their cultures back home. but i do not know enough to go further than this -i would not be able to give a concrete reason to connect the two. and, anyway, i could be completely wrong about this possible connection.
There are Punjabi gangs in California and other South Asian gangs in NJ/NY but just not as prominent as their Canadian counterparts.
It seems like that South Asian youth who friends are other south asians are alot more likely to join gangs, then south asian kids who have mostly non south asian friends.
Seems like these kids could care less what they were called. Every culture/society has a label for outsiders. Gaijin in Japan; Auslaender here in Germany. These kids seemed to have a rivalry for far more basic reasons, like perhaps privileged vs. under-privileged.
Hate to say it but bunch of dumb fucking kids with too much time on their hands and no parents around to whoop their asses like my parents would have if I indulged in such dumfuckery. What the hell!!
lol!
Seriously, I don't think in the US of the 70s that there was a large working class contingent. The immigration laws at the at time only allowed professionals. Now the laws are changing and we do have much more working class desis in the US.
I always noticed the difference in South Asian communities in US and when I visited England. My aunt lives in Birmingham area, and when I'd visit, I noticed groups of kids hanging out by the cornershop together, laughing and talking, wearing baggy clothes...Here in the US, growing up in the South mostly I met preppy, pre-med kids --- preparing for a life such as the shopaholic in the other article.
It is well known, but it's not inclusive. I can't really use it to describe the people in this story, for example. DBD - Desh Born Desi? SBD - Subcontinent Born Desi? FSC - from someother country?
I'd just like to say that the kids they quoted in the article sound terribly insensitive. Saying that "FOBs" are embarassing to Sri Lankans b/c they are unstylish and speak Tamil? Easy to say for someone who lives in their birth country and probably has more money to afford the righ haircuts and clothing....And the cricket thing was utterly ridiculous.
I wonder if perhaps the anti-FOB animosity stems from fear that the so-called FOBs will accentuate the otherness of desis in general in the eyes of non-desis and undermine the Canadian/American-born's attempts to fit in? Does anyone know of similar conflictsd in other immigrant groups?
Rabia:
I don't think these led to inter-community violence along CBD-FOB lines though.
i think this video is much more offensive... and its got some horrible lyrics too.
snoop fobb and 50 rupee
i just found the flag bit offensive. everything else i didn't care about.
like chris rock said. there's black people and then there's niggas.
i'll just say that there's indians(abd or ibd) and there's abcds/fobs. and both tend to be pretty obnoxious when taken to extremes.
I blame hip hop
@38. Jimbo, since I live in the US, I haven't exactly heard about specialized police unit's in other countries. So, no, I'm not kidding. Although not surprised either.
I blame hip hop
Are you joking?
I blame cricket.
Please go read Can't Stop, Won't Stop: The History of the Hip Hop Generation by Jeff Chang, before making generalizations.
Also, I think the reasons desis get into gangs is the same reason EVERYONE ELSE gets involved in gangs. Jeez louise folks, as if this were something "new."
Have you changed your name to Thomas yet? How's your nephew doing?
I'm sorry to upset some people with my comment about hip hop. But why do so immigrant gangs in western countries adopt the hip-hop culture.
Because it's the dominant musical culture right now, and they want to fit in. Believe it or not, once upon a time people blamed swing music and zoot suits for a similar reason
Some amazingly fantastic "clueless" comments (pun intended).
HMF why do you live in the United States?
Yellow card, personal foul. There's no reason to make this personal. Please keep it on the level of ideas, disagree with positions rather than people.
I think its a dominant part of youth culture today...
Compare it to say the 1950s rock and roll look of James Dean in "Rebel w/o a Cause" --
When you saw pics of gangs back then, that greasy hair, tight white shirt look represented rebellion/cool/not mainstream and therefore not like parents.
Hip Hop in popular culture, to me, has that same rebel/cool symbolism now to the majority of youth.
I didn't know the ref was on the take
Free T-shirts.
The reason I brought up hip-hop culture is due to what I see in Vancouver. Most of the 100 young punjabi men who died in the last decade thought that they were the next Tupac or Snoop Dogg. But most of these kids came from middle or upper class families.
It just they take the gangster culture to extreme.
Red Snapper #23: Excellent points, much props to you!
As far as Canada vs US and 'who lets in who': Both countries have 'human capital' and 'social capital' based immigration policies - both let in refugees fleeing war, famine, civil war, natural catastrophes - and both also let in top-flight scientists, doctors, professors and engineers. Canada also has a 'points-system' immigration policy which permanently lets in skilled professionals with some experience - even if they are not 'absolutely top flight'. The latest Immigration Bill before Congress is considering a similar system for the US.
Both Canada and the US also have 'highly skilled guest worker' programs - H-1B in the US, 'work permit' in Canada. In both countries, immigrants and refugees have problems in labor-force integration, credential and experience recognition, and a variety of other issues impacting their ability to live successful, happy, prosperous lives.
Canada may have a 'de jure' multiculturalism and bilingualism policy, but the US has one too - only it's de facto. Both countries have stong nativist streaks, and non-white immigrants to both encounter considerable prejudice, often persisting into the second generation and beyond. However, the much larger US population, and the more significant minority (non-white) representation within it (almost 30%) is a difference - in Canada, 'visible minorities' make up less than half that fraction (about 13%) and they are very highly concentrated in Toronto and Vancouver.
The gang problems with the Toronto Tamils and the Vancouver Sikhs, although serious and having their own particularities - arise largely for the generic reasons that Red outlined so well in #23. The US also has youth gang problems, and depending on the media's current obesession, it is 'Hispanic gangs' in LA, 'Hmong gangs' in Minn./St Paul, 'Chinese gangs' in San Fran, or 'Jamaican gangs' in NYC, and 'black gangs' everywhere! And of course, there are some 'desi gangs' in the US too; one can only hope it does not become more serious and start getting mainstream press.
Ennis: Thanks! I figured this is probably a "natural" consequence of immigration dynamics, but it's pretty shocking to see it play out with this kind of violence. Firebombs???
That video that someone posted showing tamil gangs is not real. Watch it closely, the details don't make any sense. When the police bust them all they find is machetes -- no guns or drugs. And if a fight broke out at a restaurant the manager will call the police, also no fish tail is like barbed wire. I think the makers of the video are trying to be funny, perhaps even making fun of north indians ?
There are no tamil gangs in the US, probably none in england and probably none in India which is another reason why tamil community is so successfull..
Some of my schoolmates are bhais. Their parents lavished thappads on their tapori selves. Last time I checked, they were bumping Kishore Kumar. The world is complicated.
From personal experience, I find that my cousins (ABDs) use the term "FOB" in a derogatory sense when speaking to me (I moved here about 5 years ago). They make sweeping negative statements about people from India which begin with "You FOBs..."
I do find it hurtful so I have simply made sure that I meet them only when family obligations compel me to do so. They are entitled to their opinions and prejudices but then I am entitled to staying away from them!
WTF!??
@Rabia #48 - " I wonder if perhaps the anti-FOB animosity stems from fear that the so-called FOBs will accentuate the otherness of desis in general in the eyes of non-desis and undermine the Canadian/American-born's attempts to fit in? "
Well said. I think ABD/CBDs fear that immigrants will create negative stereotypes of their own race, and in the process take them down as well. If 4 out of 5 desi-looking people are actually immigrants, rather than 'Americans whose parents were immigrants', people tend to assume that the 5th one is immigrant as well... and might end up asking questions like 'where are you from?', which on SM has been widely criticized.
I think we all need to do better jobs - IBDs need to try to fit in better ... and ABD/CBDs should hate on IBDs a lot less .. a good way to start would be to stop referring to us as the word in dispute, 'FOB'. SM has the readership to make a new term and enforce it on the posts ... 'DBD' sounds fair enough.
Why? Why conform to the norm?
The United States is 30% non-white and South Asians make up 0.8% of the population
The United Kingdom is 9% non-white and South Asians make up 4% of the population
Canada is 13% non-white and South Asians make up 4% of the population.
In Canada 30% of non-whites are South Asians and the United Kingdom 45% of non-whites are South Asians. But in the United States only 2.5% of non-whites are South Asians.
I was hoping recent immigrants could reclaim the word and make it a badge of pride. They could start by saying "Whassup, my FOB?" or "FOBby please"
No our desis are not all blue collar rabid gangstas. I think you'll find that most desis in Canuckistan are as highbrow as you. Almost all of my desi friends, growing up, were the children of professionals. The BC Attorney General is a desi (sikh), we've had desi cabinet ministers, desi MPs, and desi news anchors (you don't seem to have had anything comparable). Trust a bunch of Yankees to jump all over us at the first opportunity.
Bet you're going to tell me to go back home now.
Clueless, I'm sorry to be harsh, I just get RILED when folks chalk things up to "hip hop." Hip hop has such a huge populist and political background, to distill it to drugs, hoes, gangstas and glocks totally ignores its role in cultural resistance (and it ignores all the positive work hip hop artists are doing to address issues of political voice, gang violence, poverty, etc.). I'm not saying it's perfect, I'm just saying that blaming hip hop does not address the root causes of youth gangs or gang culture.
I'm with chachaji -- there are gangs of all "flavors" and backgrounds. I mean, here in CA you have nortenos vs. surenos, Bloods vs. Crips, 125th-115th vs. 114th-100th Street -- it is ALL stupid.
The solution is simple, We know how police in the US handle gangs. In order to defeat this gang culture, Gang members need to be treated harshly. If an incident pops out, the cops have to swarm all over the gang and throw them in jail, none of this cultural assimilation crap.
If a country takes you or your parents as a refugee, you have an obligation to that country. As an immigrant you have to be grateful and pay them back in kind. Immigrant gang members that disregard the rules need to be jailed, once thats done they should be kicked out the country.
Does it seem like that the desi gang problem is a much bigger problem in Canada and England then it is in the United States.
Yeah. And I blame hockey. ;)
This is exactly my point. The thinking is flawed, because in the minds most of the "takers" we're already "down as well" anyway. I went to a school in Indiana, and believe me, having a western accent, and knowing what a McFlurry was didn't give me any kind of free pass. Most were surprised that I knew English, and this is not a joke.
That's why I think the entire division is silly, however I won't deny that some people regard it seriously enough to become violent, it just baffles me why.
By 'fit in better', I mean we IBDs should make more friends beyond our desi circles ... There is a lot to learn from American society and the freedom that comes with it. Because there are so many desis like us, we tend to end up with desi company all the time ... In our own separate 'bubbles' if you may call it. We end up continuing our prejudices (like caste) though we are in a country which is as free as America.
Well I think the Desis in Canada are a bit more on the ass kicking side than the ones in the states,I spent time in Vancouver and every bad news report about crime and fighting always has a Desi in it. Just like they do with blacks in America I guess.
"It gives Sri Lankans a bad name, it’s embarrassing"
You know what gives Sri Lankans a bad name? Stories like this. It makes us non-Tamil Sri Lankans embarassed. It's Tamil this Tamil that, but when it's bad publicity these folks want it under the "Sri Lankan" label. Moors, Sinhalese, Malays and Burghers are embarassed at the bad name Tamil criminal elements are giving to Sri Lankans.
Camille when I was talking about hip-hop I was not talking about politcal hip-hop. What I meant to say was part of it that is the gangster culture.
For example here in Vancouver only about 20 of the 100 murder of the punjabi young men by other punjabi have been solved by the police. And the reason for that is that people don't want to talk to police cause they will then be called a "snitch", which they get from the gangster part of hip-hop.
Honestly, I think you're far more concerned with class than I am. It's nice that desis have been successful in Canada, but I don't personally associate the words "blue collar" with "rabid gangstas", nor do I feel that we're particularly high-brow around here.
This isn't about the north-south divide, I would have blogged the story if it had happened in the USA as well. I've never heard of tensions between locally born and recent immigrants reaching such a pitch that somebody would firebomb a house with various innocent people in it, including young children (who barely got out).
And you're welcome to stay and disagree as much as you want. I'm sure I'm wrong on many things.
Moors, Sinhalese, Malays and Burghers are embarassed at the bad name Tamil criminal elements are giving to Sri Lankans.
Fair enough. I'm sure non-Sri Lankan Tamils feel the same way...as in non-Sri Lankan Tamils are embarassed at the bad name Tamil criminal elements are giving to Tamils.
Because that's where the money is?
Previous generations of settlers did not head west so they could cuddle with the Comanches and the Sioux...
No need for the brown on brown hate, Shafraz.
Man, desis got issues. This makes my head hurt.
Randomizer, a lot do actually. And those who don't it's their choice. If they are more comfortable and happier in a desi setting, do they really need to? Your point of caste is well taken but there are plenty of desis out there who don't care about the stereotype prejudices like caste and one does not really need to leave the brown gang to shed these prejudices.
Well there are basic differences in thinking when you take an average Joe ABD and an average Jai DBD. The awareness of the difference and thus the division is fine - it even helps in the interaction since expectations of conformity by the two groups are reduced. It's the big deal that is made out of the difference thats quite silly.
In my opinion, any word which identifies a class of people, when used in a derogatory sense is always offensive, whether its FOB or ABCD or Indian or American or Sri Lankan or Tamilian or Gulti or Mallu and so on .. so I don't think FOB by itself is derogatory at all, but its worth fighting for anyway when you are being attacked.
Gulti Girl, I find the usage of C to be quite witty and cute, not derogatory, its not supposed to be taken literally. I think its just like how you find the word FOB to be funny . From my past experiences with ABDs and IBDs alike, the ABCD word has always brought a smile rather than a frown.who in turn got it from Mafiosi aka Cosa Nostra, now is Sicilian organized crime to blame?
biryani, how is calling someone "confused" "witty and cute"? I fail to see.
Similarly, I think calling someone "fresh off the boat" is INHERENTLY xenophobic. Doesn't matter if it doesn't offend the person, the roots/history of the term are offensive. If a friend called me "macaca," even in jest, I would find it offensive (not to reopen the why folks use "macaca on SM" convo, just saying). What, should we "reclaim" our supposed confusion?
I'm with JOAT, a desi is a desi is a desi.
I like that point, I agree totally. Professionals in India can live just as comfortably as they can here -- the main reason they come here is so they can make more money and possibly get a better job than they would if they had stayed in India..
We have a ton of South Asian and East Asian immigrants here, and we all (American born or recently emigrated) use the term "FOB" or "fobby" lightly. I never really found it insulting; in fact, a lot of the people I know call themselves fobs are a joke. I guess if a white person or even AB desi or Asian used for the sole purpose of insulting someone, it would be hurtful, but eh, that might just be my circle of friends.
One of the explanations often offered for the formation of gangs, is that they fulfill certain roles which are otherwise lacking in people's lives...family, identity, culture, roots, etc. Gangs can provide a sense of belonging. Often they're associated with inner-city areas with many endemic social problems...single mothers, absent dads, drugs, crime, poor schools, etc. Almost like a package. What surprises me about some of these Canadian desi gangs, is that these kids are coming from middle-class lifestyles, live in reasonably nice suburbs, with not only both parents but often a whole host of other close relatives in the area, good schools, a strong inherited cultural/religious identity, etc...but still fall prey to gangs. One reason I think is drug money...the other is the bravado and sense of being macho that comes from it. And it is true that their Punjabi and Tamil parents simply do not understand them or have much time for them, what with working so hard all the time. But somewhere here, there is failure on a collosal scale taking place.
Watch out for my reality TV show, Extreme Makeover: FOB edition. In this series, FOBs from different parts of the world will be transformed into Americans with accent training, fashion advice, etiquette classes, tutorials on American sports like baseball and NASCAR, and, yes, even plastic surgery to cure them of their ethnic features. Teeth and hair straightening included.
I'm not trying to be the PC police, but seriously, I think we should all at least REFLECT on what we're saying before we say it.
"Fresh off the boat" has the same history as "banana republic" and other colonial exploits. It has been used, especially by nativists, in the U.S. to degrade immigrants of all nationalities for at least the last 100 years. I'm not saying it's equivalent to the n-word, but it's naive to think it's some cute little epithet that some 2nd gen'ers came up with for 1st gen immigrants.
Sorry for the triple post - a clarification. I'm not saying "FOB" came out of colonial activity, I'm just saying that these terms are OLD and have a history. They didn't just pop up overnight, or even in the last 30 years. But to bring it to the present, when folks talk about Vietnamese or Cuban or Jamaican boat people, they aren't talking about "boat people" as a positive cute little term. It is a term that has been historically used in a disparaging and degrading way, and I think we should recognize that.
"It is a term that has been historically used in a disparaging and degrading way, and I think we should recognize that."
Camille, I think you're on point here. It's not an endearing term at all, and the irony is, while the "fresh" part might be intended as a divisive insult (ie, I've been here longer than you), the "boat" part isn't divisive at all, as it's an insult to country of origin, as poor, backwards, etc... And given the close generational connection between 1st gen and 2nd gen (my math gives me... 1 generational difference), you're essentially insulting yourself. Sort of like calling your brother a sonuvabitch.
Why do you live in the United States?
To overthrow whitey and his effeminate, low-birthrate "civilization"!
He came there so we came here!
The United States is 30% non-white and South Asians make up 0.8% of the population
30% and rising! AND RISING!
Long live the revolution of the peoples of color!
FoB for me is a cool term. I am reminded of some of the best looking coolest indians I knew back at UIC. They had just come from India when they were in high school or for college at UIC. But they were FoB's because of accent, food they ate, and being into cricket and indian films..
I even remember going to desi parties -- and people would tell me that they had just come from pakistan two days ago -- and already they are at the desi party !
Very good point, well put, Amitabh. Here I think the problem is how the media and the public characterize a certain problem. When do a bunch of kids displaying all the delinquent behaviors you mention, become a 'gang'?
In the US suburbs, the media do not characterize it as a 'gang' problem, when the kids involved are white - it's just a bunch of kids with issues, just acting out, nothing a rehab clinic or 'teen boot camp' or military school wouldn't solve!
But when suburban ethnic kids do those same things, then it can become a 'gang' problem very fast!
US suburban desis are still quite spread out, the geographic concentrations of the Toronto suburban Tamils and Vancouver suburban Sikhs is not there (and still in parts of suburban NJ, where you do get these concentrations, you do see it!). But in California or Florida, the 'Latino gangs' are both urban and suburban, since the community has spread out, and that's how the media sees them.
I've also seen Jewish delinquent youth from upper-middle class homes in US suburbs - where there is some geographic concentration - acting in 'gangs' - but it just doesn't get the same kind of press.
None of this is to excuse the happenings that occassioned Ennis's post.
@Ardy #39 - ' Given a choice though I think most Fobs would prefer the use of DBD or IBD. '
@Sadaiyappan #105 - ' But they were FoB's because of accent, food they ate, and being into cricket and indian films..'
In a post which is telling you that 'FOB' is an offensive term, why do you ignore this and continue to casually throw that term around ? If a post which is asking whether 'FOB is as bad as N-er' doesn't make you stop using this term, I don't know what will.
Yeah, but I don't find it offensive, I think it is a cool term..
YOU think it is a cool term. But if you read the post and dozens of comments later, you would have noticed many who said it IS offensive. Going by your logic, it means that if YOU thought 'N-er' was a 'cool term' as well, the following statements would be just fine on this forum:
Ardy #39 - ' Given a choice though I think most N*ers would prefer the use of .. '
Sadaiyappan #105 - ' But they were N*ers because of accent, food they ate, and being into ... '
No problem at all, right ?
Now I love the so-called FOBs. Before I didn't. When I was in high school trying to fit in (one of four Indian kids in school) along comes a very nice girl, a recent immigrant who epitomized some of the stereotypical traits. She was awkward, unconcerned with fashion, super-diligent, obedient and respectful. No, I was not happy with her. I knew my not-really-cool-in-the-first-place stock would plummet even further by association.
To a certain extent, I can understand the adolescent chagrin referenced in the post, although they're clearly taking their embarrassment too far.
Now that I've made peace with my own inner FOB, the new-immigrant lack of sophistication -- oiled hair, unfashionable clothes, standing up when a teacher talks to you -- tugs at the old heartstrings. It reminds me, ever so fondly, of Om and Ishvar in A Fine Balance - pre-talcum powder and whatnot.
FOB is to the West what "angrez" is to India.
Parts of India, PG. Some people in India don't even know what "angrez" means! :)
Randomizer #110 - Whats your opinion on black people using the N word for themselves?
what does it mean ?
Personally, I don't find FOB to be an offensive word, in my eyes it's more of a humorous term..I mean really--who comes over on a boat anyway?
Then again though, I was born and brought up in the States and if one person finds it offensive then by all means, it is.
Now that I think about it, I use the term only in private and often with just my American born friends. I would never tell a recent immigrant that they're a "FOB"...which I guess inherently implies that I think it is an insult.
chachji the reason punjabi/sikh gangs get press in Vancouver is the murder rate and the amount of shootings that involve them.
Both the Hell Angels and East Asian Gangs are much more powerful, but they don't have the number of violent acts that Punjabi gangs do in Vancouver. There have been shootings and stabbings in the punjabi community in Vancouver over just giving somebody the wrong look or talking to someone girlfriends. Some of the shootings have taken place in crowded nightclubs or 12 o'clock in the afternoon on busy streets in front of hundreds people. It's like they almost like the attention that comes from there acts of stupidity.
You've clearly never been to Scarborough...
As someone mentioned, the Toronto Police did form a special unit to tackle the Tamil gang problem after it flared up in the late 90's/early 00's. It was very effective and, through deportation and jailing, it isn't nearly the problem it once was. The gangs these kids are talking about aren't the serious criminal