May 29, 2007
Maltreated H-1B Workers Begin to Find a VoiceNews
There was a thought-provoking article in the SF Chronicle Sunday on the current quandaries faced by high-skilled foreign workers on H-1B Visas in the U.S. A very large proportion of these are Indian (49%), and in high-tech and computer fields (45%).
Currently, the system has problems on every side: first, representatives of software companies (chief among them Microsoft’s Bill Gates) have loudly asserted that they need for the number of available H-1B visas to be increased, as there are currently significant numbers of unfilled positions in many computer related fields (and this is even despite the explosion of outsourcing in the past five years). Secondly, there is confusion about whether H-1B should be understood as a temporary visa, or the first stage on the path to a green card; most Indians I know presume it’s the latter, while the government still seems to think it’s the former. And finally, the system clearly hasn’t been working very well for the immigrants themselves: it currently takes between 6 and 12 years for an Indian on an H1-B to be given a green card, even with employers willing to sponsor them. Confusingly, it takes much less time for H-1B workers from other national backgrounds to be given a green card once they find sponsorship.
One of the surprises to me in the SF Chronicle article is the fact that the USCIS doesn’t even really know how many H-1B workers with Green Card sponsors there are:
Stuck in the middle is a federal government that has problems tracking the visas. Citizenship and Immigration Services, the federal agency that oversees this guest-worker program, can’t answer basic questions including:
— How many foreign-born professionals are working in the United States on H-1B visas now?
— What percentage of H-1B visa holders seek green cards instead of returning home?
— How many H-1B visa holders and family members are awaiting green cards?
“The cumulative numbers you are looking for simply aren’t available,” said Citizenship and Immigration Services spokesman Chris Bentley. “These are not issues we track.”
This admission of ignorance is really depressing: it suggests how low on the government’s priority list the H-1B workers really are. “It’s not something we track” is a way of saying, “no one really seems to care about this.”
Fortunately, a new organization has cropped up to advocate for H1-B workers: Immigration Voice. They’ve hired a PR firm to help them make their case in public, and they’re trying to influence the push to reform the H1-B system that is currently starting to work its way through Congress.
On a personal note, I should say that my wife started working in the U.S. (in the Bay Area) on an H-1B visa, and I’ve seen the ins and outs of this deeply flawed system at work. I feel strongly that the H1-B system is essential to the U.S. economy, and that H1-B workers, who come to the U.S. with advanced university degrees and unique skills, ought to be fast-tracked to permanent resident (Green Card) status. As it is, 1.1 million people (according to Immigration Voice’s number) are currently waiting in limbo, unsure whether to plan on staying in the U.S. permanently — and everything that might come with that — or whether they should continue to presume they’ll be heading back to the countries they started from.
Finally, I also think second-gen desis in the U.S. — particularly all the desi lawyers out there — ought to be advocating for better treatment for the Indians who are here on H-1B visas. As of now I haven’t seen much of this.
amardeep on May 29, 2007 07:50 AM in News · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
I agree we ABD lawyers should be advocating for better treatment ~ I know so many desis who were waiting for the yearly H-1B lottery...it does take it's toll on future planning and leaves them in limbo. Do you have some ideas of where we lawyers should start? :-)
Also, I didn't realize it was 6 to 10 years to wait for a greencard! It must have increased, because my fiancee' got his gc in 3 years.
Quite frankly, as a second-gen desi, I don't have much sympathy for H-1 b holders. You see, I got laid off and was replaced by an Indian H-1b. Was there special skills involved? Nah. The guy's education was no better than Heald Technical Institute. He just came cheaper through a body shop. The Wall Street Journal did a better job of examining this situation than the Chronicle It's a terrible irony. Does he have loyalty to the U.S.? Nah, like most H-1b's, he just wants "dual" citizenship so that 1) he can leave his kids here to attend college in the future. 2) So that he can sponsor his aging parents and get them on the SSI government benefits dole. It's the best of both worlds. Have your cake and eat it too!
The solution is to shut down the H-1b visa program and restructure the American educational system. Of course, you can't do that by wasting money in Iraq.
Amardeep's post: "I feel strongly that the H1-B system is essential to the U.S. economy, and that H1-B workers, who come to the U.S. with advanced university degrees and unique skills, ought to be fast-tracked to permanent resident (Green Card) status."
At the core of the U.S. Immigration policy has been the the benevolent concept of unification of families, with economic interests given a much lower priority. Fast-tracking highly skilled contributors to our economy makes perfect economic sense, but unfortunately, the current laws do not support that goal. Highly skilled workers with firm job sponsorships from US employers are still categorized as Sixth Preference, which obviously means that there are no less than five categories of potential immigrants that the US considers far more important than, for example, an IIT graduate who can come in and solve a major glitch in the IRS's revenue collection software.
An American citizen's old parents residing in India have a much better chance of getting green cards than the IIT graduate with nothing but a job sponsorship from the US. The economic value - or in the case of old parents, the economic liability - of these two classes of people has not been central to the US immigration laws. However, the recent immigration reform bill seems to give a higher priority to our economic interests at the expense of family reunification. Since there is never a free lunch, adding immigration quotas to the economic need column will have some effect on the other immigration categories. I have read that family reunification is being questioned by many politicians. Don't be surprised if the old parent category, which Asian immigrants are so fond of, is severely curtailed to include only those parents who can prove medical or economic need before they are allowed to spend their twilight years with their programmer children here in the US.
Now, wouldn't it be nice if we could have both? But if we can't, I would still favor the family related "preferences" in the immigration laws. This country gets enough highly skilled people despite the restrictive laws. I don't know of a single Indian who, after receiving a good college education and a job offer that followed the due process of interviewing American citizens, did not ultimately get the green card. It would be sad if the same person, after contributing for decades to the American economy, is unable to care for his old parents because the US immigration laws refuse residency to people of little or no economic value.
Signed: An ex-Sixth Preference Immigrant, a current US citizen, a successful green card sponsor of old parents
Amandeep,
Its very naive to expect 2nd gens to have any empathy with H1-Bs.
I am sure you have seen the other thread where we cannot even agreement on not using the offensive 'FOB' to describe those of us who were not 'fortunate' enough to be born here.
Commenter # 2 , for example,seems to deem it fit to question the loyalties of all recent immigrants.
From this and other similar comments on other posts ,I have realized that I will never stop hearing "You are not as American as I am because you were not born here"
The archetypical h1-b is more compliant, conforming and in awe of his/her work environment than the "entitlement" generation bred locally. The soft skills that are lacking are easily rectified over a few years of assimilation. The only issue I see is the slow creeping in of the rust of lethargy that sets in on the path to green card. By the time the green card arrives our lean hungry casca's become slob joe sixpacks.
If you are a local, try offering something that the commoditized h1-b can not.
Chikki, I'm not 100% sure what the best strategy could be or should be -- I'm hoping to get some suggestions from readers who have experience with this. There are these big organizations like NASABA who could be making statements and exerting pressure, but I'm not sure how influential they really are as political agents.
It might be helpful to have immigration lawyers (desi and non desi) pool their knowledge and experience about what is really happening with the H-1B system, especially since the USCIS is more or less saying they don't have any way of even counting the number of people waiting for green cards currently. (You would think they would be using database software by now!) My sense is, there is effectively zero political pressure on them to improve the system or provide any real accountability or transparency: the national debate is exclusively focused on illegal immigrants.
In the short run, I'm considering sending my $25 in to this new organization I mentioned in the post, Immigration Voice.
Great post, Amardeep!
>>I also think second-gen desis ...all the desi lawyers out there — ought to be advocating for better treatment for the Indians who are here on H-1B visas. As of now I haven’t seen much of this.
Never mind 2nd-gen desis - even most 1st-gen desis who came here in 70's and 80's favor "shutting the door" on immigration from India. How can we expect their children to do the right thing?
>>the recent immigration reform bill seems to give a higher priority to our economic interests at the expense of family reunification.
I think this is a positive step. Immigration should be strongly linked to economic interest.
Here's my take on immigration and nation-state...
M. Nam
second-gen desi: I disagree with your opinion that H1-B get the best of both worlds. On contrary they get the worst of both worlds.
1. Medicare and SS Taxes are paid by all H1-B and only those lucky to get a green card may avail the benefits.
2. Taxation without representation: America was build on an exactly opposite principle.
3. Less pays than regular employees, not because they are not smart, but because they are immigrants.
4. Parents of H1-B don't want to uproot themselves for government benefits. The smart H1-B can send more than enough money back home. Parents need compassion and love from children.
5. H1-B's pay Fed Taxes, State Taxes, Sales Taxes, Real Estate Taxes, Medicare, SS. They even contribute to the Health insurance network. Its time they ask for schools for their children and good colleges in future.
From Wikipedia, under H-1B: "The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa category in the United States under the Immigration & Nationality Act, section 101(a)(15)(H). It allows American companies and universities to seek temporary help from skilled foreigners who have the equivalent US Bachelor's Degree education. H-1B employees are employed temporarily in a job category that is considered by the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Services to be a "specialty occupation".
Note the emphasis on temporary.
Runa,
Its very naive to expect 2nd gens to have any empathy with H1-Bs. I am sure you have seen the other thread where we cannot even agreement on not using the offensive 'FOB' to describe those of us who were not 'fortunate' enough to be born here.
Yes, I know that's true -- I personally think the way second-gens/ABCDs use the word "FOB" reflects deep insecurity: people are trying to be as "American" (or perhaps "white"?) as possible, and don't want to be embarrassed by other Indians with funny accents or poor taste in clothing. In the long run the divide is suicidal: the hundreds of thousands of current H1Bs are potential future voting citizens. Given how much earning potential and economic clout they'll have as permanent residents and citizens, second gens should be rooting for them and supporting them, not mocking them.
But in the end, terminology like ABCD and FOB is just about names; it's really less important than the political framework and legal infrastructure that supports the continued immigration of high-skilled workers.
Hi Amit,
Medical and SS taxes can be availed only once you get the citizenship not "Greencard". And once you get the GC wait another 5 years to apply for citizenship.
Thanks
second-gen desi, are you speaking from the experience of what your parents did? The effects of globalization go both ways, buddy.
i never liked the idea of dual citizenship. you cant really pledge allegance to 2 countries if they go to war with each other. i do like the idea of vastly increassing the population of the US through immigration though. take the sharpest people from everywhere, as well as the hardest working laborers. spend less $ on wars in vauge places. if we are going to unjustly annex some poor country, might as well make it mexico so we can at least expand the US. although im generally a fan of not going into vague countries to begin with.
Right, no sympathy for the h1-b holders. But I am sure you are very loyal to the shareholders and the board of directors who cut your job so they can save money. Point your "anger" towards who is responsible, not some h1-b holder. You sound like a loser. You can't deal with the fact you were replaced by a guy with an accent. On the other hand if "you" had some "special skills", you wouldn't have been replaced.
The H-1B system sucks on various counts - as someone who worked that way and paid FICA taxes she's never going to benefit from (because didn't settle in the US) and was unable to move on to another job when the original job turned out to be not so great because of the visa restrictions, I sympathize with those on the H1B visa. Having heard about how H-1 desi software employees basically get paid half the wage an American would be (often by desi bosses who act like they're doing Srini a big favour bringing him over to America), I think it can be unfair to American workers too. But the catch 22 is that there are, and will be for the foreseeable future, enough desis willing to take the disadvantages of the system in order to get their foot in the door, and employers who benefit from this eagerness and willingness to work for less, so the system is going to continue.
The silly thing about the H-1 system is that it's really quite easy to get the H-1 but then really quite slow and difficult to move on to citizenship, and yet there are incentives for moving on to citizenship the longer you stay in the US - you pay social security and you put down roots, maybe start sending your kids to school, buy a house, have to repay school loans, etc. It seems like the govt just drags the process along even though it acknowledges the inevitable, and thereby leaves people in a bind, waiting forever for that green card.
As for the second-gens and their occasional lack of sympathy, that's no surprise. At least some people from every immigrant background I've met in the US turn around and become rabid right-wing anti-immigration types in a few generations. A little solidarity would be nice, of course (not to mention...un-hypocritical?) but I don't *expect* desis to be automatically more virtuous than others in this regard.
the US needs more people i think. india and china will both become much larget than the US over the next century. i think increasing our numbers is one thing we need to do to stay where we are. might as well make them disproporitonaltely diesel hard working types.
Before law school, I worked as an immigration paralegal, specifically in the H1-B department. I can personally attest that your assumptions are wholly correct, and that government view versus the applicant view of what an H1-B visa really is lies at the crux of the problem, indeed. As an H1-B paralegal, I was always told that H1-Bs were "temporary work visas," and was always confused as to why my clients always believed the H1-B visa was the first step in the green card process. But honestly, who wouldn't think so? It's a progression forward in the naturalization process; why spend three years in a country establishing yourself on a temporary basis? That's confusing, and most people don't uproot their families for that. I want to get back into immigration so badly, especially when I hear things like this still going on!
I don't know about this. Most Indian immigrants I've met seem to be loyal (but usually cynical) to the US. The problem is the few very vocal people we meet who have anti-American sentiments. I also disagree that H-1B holders should be put on a fast track to attaining a green card. In every society or club there's a rite of passage to show your loyalty, which works more often than not. Even if someone is truly "loyal," there should be such a test. After all, how many other countries allow you to become a citizen (etc.) so quickly? I realize this is a poor argument, but then we're all allowed such things once in a while...
On another note: What benefits (besides voting and permanent residence) do citizens/green card holders get that H-1B holders do not?
In today's world, citizens have a better prayer of due process in a court of law. All others are chopped liver.
A lot of indian immigrants i meet talk a lot about how much they hate america. how america has no culture. how great india is. how they are going back in a year. then 30 years later im still hearing the same thing.
Indian S/W companies apply for H1-B as if they are raw material. Infosys submitted applications for 22K of its employees, that's 25% of their work force.
Wipro for applied for H1B visas for every one on a particular project while the required strength onsite was for 2 people who were sent on L1 visas.
Hey, at least, they're consistent! :)
# 18 mizuho,
'Green card' holders cannot vote. They are permanent residents and ,unlike H1/L1 visa holders , are not bound to a single employer but can change jobs, start a business or choose not to work ( I think green card holders are eligible for unemployment/disability BUT are unlikely to avail of this as future prospects for citizenship would be harmed!). Green card holders have to spend a minimum amnount of time in the country each year in order to hold on to their Green card status.
Citizens of course get all the benefits of citizenship ( voting etc) along with its responsibilities( jury duty etc). Citizens also get to avail of the benefits of Social security and Medicare.
Everyone pays taxes !!
Green card holders (= 'permanent residents') cannot vote. they have to wait for around 5 years before even applying for citizenship.
Yep, this wastefulness is true for most of the Indian software giants. Also, indian sofware consultanting companies and body shoppers are famous for keeping employees 'on the bench' and not paying them if there is no project at hand, while they are still on H1-b. This is actually *illegal* but enforcement sucks on this front.
As an H1B visa holder who has been waiting for Green Card for the last 4 years and has no hope of getting it in the next few years I don't fault USICS that much as they clearly state that H1B is a temp visa and not a path to Green Card. But US Gov does have misguided priorities and with the current 'Comprehensive Immigration Reform' bill it would be more difficult for me to get Green Card.
Having said that, Indian software firms (big and small) abuse H1B visa and Green Card system thus screwing the non-abusing Indians. I have known instances where a Green Card could be obtained for 20K by jumping to the front of the queue through exploiting a loop hole. Since there are only a fixed number of visas the people behind them in the queue get shafted.
Misconceptions on comments section:
First, H-1B is a non-immigrant temporary visa. However, it allows "dual intent", that means that you can apply for green card while on H-1B through yourself or through other routes - employer, marriage, business, etc. There are other visas that have dual intent too. A large percentage of green card holders and naturalized citizens go that route - F, H, and then permanent residence.
Second, H-1B is not a lottery. It is a petition-based limited by yearly cap.
Third, each country has 9% cap for adjustment of status (last stage of green card process). Heavy applicants from India and China slows that process for people from that nation, but someone from Iceland not.
Last, some cities allow green card holders, and even H-1B to vote for local elections but not state and federal.
Legal green card is painfully slow unless you are on EB1, NIW route even then..........
I am on a H1-B Visa and it sucks in some respects. I pay Social security and Medicare when I don't even plan to be in the US for more than a few years. It's basically money down the toilet as far as I am concerned. And I know a lot of people on H1-B who do want to settle here and cant change jobs despite not being given the same promotions and wages as their non immigrant brethren just because they are waiting for a Green Card (which takes about 6 years) and they have to stick to their current employer till they get one. And while my own choice to move back is very very marginally influenced by this irritation of waiting forever (I personally don't see any convincing reasons why living here long term, away from where I grew up is any better for me - there are trade offs in both cases), I know at least some friends who wanted to get a GC but just got sick of waiting for the GC and moved back.
So, Second Gen in #2, it's not the fault of the H1-B holder, it's the fault of the darn system. Maybe you want to consider that the next time you blame it on the H1-B holder and maybe you want to go out and protest against the system especially at a time when a new immigration policy is being so hotly debated. Immigrants don't exactly relish the idea of being paid less and being exploited FYI.
Also,
Green card holders can avail all the social benefits, can enroll in the army, used to be part of draft in past, can vote in some places........but not on state and federal level.
BTW, H-1B can change emploers too.
getting/meeting gc corporate sponsorship requirements are a lot harder than for h-1b. so maybe not after 3 years, but after h-1b has gotten a second stint (totaling 6yrs), and at the end of which has diligently paid up taxes which they will NEVER enjoy otherwise, why not give them and their employer the option to go "upgrade" to a gc. not everyone will, but i knew tons of people who spent 4yrs college, 2 yrs grad school and then between practical training and 2x h-1b's, total legal stay in the US 12+ yrs. these folks basically get penalised for going by the book. whereas several corporate sponsored gc holders i knew waited until they got their citizenship and then returned home. this logic bewilders me on the part of the gov.
Kush I am not sure at which stage you can change jobs without being affected but I think unless you get your EAD if you change jobs and have 485 and/or Labor Cert and are just waiting for your priority date or even before, if you change jobs you have to restart the same i.e. reapply for Labor Cert and go back to the start of the queue. So technically you can change jobs, but if you keep doing that you restart again and would never get a GC.
The maltreatment towards H1B is minor when compared to other workers. Just look at indian workers in middle east.
I suspects frauds may be one reason.
I know of a couple of fraudulent cases where h1b visa was obtained for gas station attendent.
But still it cant be the only reason for the delay.
Samir
where is the 22k number coming from?
My guess is thats an error based on the total number of visa\'s applied for so far.
Also there is a body shop argument that gets thrown ad hominem. There is that aspect however there are other aspects too
At UCSD four years ago 80% of PHDs in signal processing were non citizens and plenty those who would chose to stay in us afterwards would have to go thru H1 route
Kush,
That was an interesting comment - I was not aware that green card holders could vote in local elections.In fact, recently there was a case where a non-citizen was deported ( somewhere in Florida) back to Pakistan after living here for 17 odd years for election fraud just because he registered to vote( He claimed that this was inadvertent)
Lottery to decide H1B visa dream
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070405/211/6e6ev.html
Ardy, you have to restart but your dates will be fixed, if your labor and I-140 has been approved. Just make sure your old employer does not cancel the approved I-140. This way you are not pushed out of the queue.
Ardy,
As an academic, I moved quite a bit during my H-1B phase. Different H-1Bs everytime.
However, I did my own green card as a researcher, and was not tied to an employer.
If tied to an employer, then your comment is correct about EAD, etc.
I mean they hate living here. THey think Americans are dumb iand inferior. they think indians are all smart. They think America "has no culture". they think india is a shining beacon of perfection. they say they are about to go back, because they "hate it hear". they never do...
http://www.shubhhub.com/?p=244
Theres a table from Dept of Labour. Even if 22k is all total visas they applied so far. Its about a quarter of their work force.
Kush,
This is very helpful, do you by any chance have a link to how the self application process works?
Thanks
:I feel strongly that the H1-B system is essential
If you've been following the SAJA channels especially Vivek Wadhwa's painstaking research on this topic - the proposal is to do away with H1B entirely & simply give green cards to F1s. Forget about the H1Bs. Just forget about bringing in anybody from India especially in saturated fields like software/IT. Instead, give greencards to all F1s regardless of the degree. A typical F1 takes 2+ years for the MS ( most popular post-GRE option ), anywhere from 5-6 years for the PhD, or 4 years for a BS ( for the lucky ones who do come to the US from India after SATs ). Therefore, all of these F1s without exception have already spent 2 years in an American University, with American students, earning an American degree. In fact I know F1s who have spent 10+ years on F1. That means you have a chap getting multiple degrees BS MS PhD from multiple American Univs. Even such a chap has to go through this H1B charade. Why ?
btw this is exactly what you do with a physician. Say you are a doctor in India. You already have your MD albeit from an Indian Univ. It is worth dogshit to the US. You take your Step1/2/3, get your F1, come to the US, RE-DO the whole thing!!! Yes, as of today, you re-do your MD in the US, because you are now going to be an American doctor treating American patients, not an Indian doctor with an Indian MD degree treating American patients. In the process, you spend 3-5 years in the US on an F1. Now even these poor fuckers don't get an auto GC. They have to go through the H1B charade as well. Why ?
Scrap H1s. Ban import of any H1 labor. Insist on everybody spending American dollars and a few years in an American University to get an American degree via F1. Then give every F1 a GC upon graduation. Its really that simple.
If you think this is anti-India rightwing BS, note that India has third highest number of F1s ( right behind South Korea & China). The USA hands out quarter million F1s every year.
Its just that we make the F1s ie. those with a superior American degree from an American Univ, go through the H1 before giving them a GC. In the process the F1s compete with the Direct-from-India-bodyshop-variety H1s, whose numbers are staggering, loyalty questionable and quality abysmal. The F1s have superior skills and have spent 2+ years already in the US and considerable $$ acquiring an American education. Why then are they not automatically given a GC ?
Another (lame) option - Insist that every H1 go thru an F1 before getting a GC. Again, lots of software guys already do this - come on an Infosys H1B contract, secretly apply to am American Uni, get the I-20, break the Infy contract, pay the Infy fine, get on the F1 and get the MS PhD MBA whatever. But again these dudes got to go back on the H1 once their degree is done! Ass backwards system.
# 32
Samir
where is the 22k number coming from?
Its from the NY Times click on Multimedia, looking to India
Parsing the Truths About Visas for Tech Workers
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/business/yourmoney/15view.html?ex=1334289600&en=9fe90a4e1f445ff3&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
I wouldn't be surprised if in the coming years, the US military offers H1-B applicants a fast track to a GC by serving in the military. Right now serving in the military offers a fast track to citizenship for GC holders. And that would also offer the H1-B applicants a chance to "prove" their loyalty to the US...and get in shape all at the time (nothing like running 3 miles in 20 minutes every morning !)
Both Infosys & Wipro aplied for ~20K H1B visas but only 50 & 160 green cards respectively. They are mistreated by their Indian employers more than any American system
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/us-plans-to-end-green-card-route/41152-2.html
Samir
That is not a quarter of their workforce.
It only the number for which they applied.
Employees change employers and for indian firms employer retention is a bigger challenge
Samir alludes to an interesting point. The top employer sponsors for H1B visas are NOT Microsoft, Intel, IBM, Google, etc. Rather, the top two spots on that list go to the US offices of Infosys and Tata Consulting. Their strategy is simple, bring over massive amounts of H1B visa holders and farm them out to high-tech clients for training for a couple of years, then those people go back to India along with the very jobs they were being trained to do. So, in reality, some significant portion of H1B's are not at all used as even potential means to settle in the US and enhance the US economy. Rather, they are used as a means to have American workers essentially train the people who their jobs will eventually be outsourced to. Is it any wonder there is not more support for H1B holders? Obviously this doesn't apply to all H1B holders but it does apply to a significant portion.
Another interesting point some commentators have been making in light of the recent introduction of the comprehensive immigration reform bill is that, with the passage of that bill, it will become easier for an *illegal* immigrant to start on and complete the path to citizenship than it will for a *legal* H1B visa holder to apply for and receive citizenship. A strange result, no?
Post #20
Alot of Indians immigrants i meet, talk a lot about how much they hate America. that America has no culture.
When I have been in the States, I have never have really seen that much, other then a few old uneducated auntie's. However here in Canada, I always hear how Canada is nothing compare to there precious [Northern] India.
"hate it hear"
i meant here. now dont nitpick on spelling. i dont pay attn to that on blog posts
This is a very recent phenomenon. Maybe last two years. I am sure they will change some rules to prevent this. Making infosys/wipro pay more taxes in US will reduce this in one day.
Alot of Indians immigrants i meet, talk a lot about how much they hate America. that America has no culture.
I see this more all the time, particularly among more recent immigrants. To me, it seems more than a little unfair to seek the advantages of living in the United States, while seeing no value in any non-monetary things the US may have to offer.
Secondly, there is confusion about whether H-1B should be understood as a temporary visa, or the first stage on the path to a green card; most Indians I know presume it’s the latter, while the government still seems to think it’s the former
Although the H-1B visa may not be de jure a stage on the path to permanent residency, it certainly has worked out that way for most immigrants as a matter of fact...to the extent that I think the system has created a sort of expectancy on the part of H-1B workers that they will be transitioned into permanent residency as a matter of course.
The problem with the system really isn't the H-1B itself, but the enormous backlog of permanent residency petitions at the various BCIS service centers. Even with employer sponsorship, becoming a permanent resident currently takes almost 5 years, by which time the petitioner's H-1B status has almost run out.
I'm curious to see what effect the planned changes to the work visa procedures will have on the permanent residency process.
in regards to "taxation without representation" for H1-B and green card holders, this is not unique to the US. in my experiences, expats, or work/permanent visa holders generally have to pay both the taxes for the country they're living in and the country of their citizenship. if they've been sent over by their company, then the company pays some of the taxes, and if their home country and their country of residence have an agreement (like the US and UK) then their home taxes will be waived. but either way, someone has to pay the taxes of the country of residence, whether or not they get all the benefits of citizens, that's just the nature of the taxation system.
my problem with the H1-B visa program is the lack of recourse those visa holders have if their company screws up their visa. my father almost got deported because his company forgot to get him a new H1-B visa when he was hired.if his green card hadn't come through, he would have been sent back to india, after 10 years in this country.
A lot of indian immigrants i meet talk a lot about how much they hate america. how america has no culture. how great india is. how they are going back in a year. then 30 years later im still hearing the same thing.
I hear this from immigrants from other Asian countries as well. It really pisses me off. They should really leave and seek employment and schooling elsewhere as soon as they can if they hate it so much. Whatever cultures (note "-s") America has, they detract from it.
Why? Because it makes me, a 2nd gen'er loyal--but not mindlessly--to the U.S., grateful for what it has given me and my hardworking parents, feel like my contribution to American society is being taken advantage of and that I have done something wrong. This is not the case, but damn, it cuts at me sometimes.
No offense. This was pure emotion.
I feel strongly that the H1-B system is essential to the U.S. economy, and that H1-B workers, who come to the U.S. with advanced university degrees and unique skills, ought to be fast-tracked to permanent resident (Green Card) status.
You need neither an advanced degree nor any unique skills to get a H1-B. In the current system, you need to apply early, have a college degree, pay the prevailing wage rate and you will be all set. I do agree with Amardeep that the H-1Bs need to be fast tracked to permanent residency. I am not a big fan of this H-1B racket. People on H-1Bs should be given green cards from the time they come to the US. In the current system, the spouses of H-1Bc cannot work. It makes no sense. The H-1Bs cannot move to permanent residency without an employer sponsor and they are at the mercy of their employer till they can get a green card. This obviously leads to a lot of abuse.
particularly all the desi lawyers out there — ought to be advocating for better treatment for the Indians who are here on H-1B visas. As of now I haven’t seen much of this.
I have taken some immigration cases before and they are extremely tedious and administrative. As far as H-1Bs are concerned, the desi lawyers cant really help them by providing pro bono legal representation etc. as the problems in the H-1B can only be fixed at the legislative level.
Of course desi lawyers can do advocacy etc. but desi lawyer organizations are better places for networking than initiating policy changes. Time would be better spent by teaming up with Hispanic organizations but they dont really care about H-1Bs.
I think the whole immigration, especially H-1B area is just not sexy enough for most desi lawyers to either advocate or practice.
This is very helpful, do you by any chance have a link to how the self application process works?
Thanks, please visit USCIS webpage.
Also,you want talk to an attorney or HR of your research organization for self application process. Talking/ hiring an attorney is essential. However, I know people who did application entirely on their own in early 90s.
Or, google = National Interest Waiver + Green Card
Or google = EB1 + Green Card
The H-1Bs cannot move to permanent residency without an employer sponsor and they are at the mercy of their employer till they can get a green card
There are a limited number of categories where you can sponsor yourself (the EB categories). Academics on H-1B visas often go this route, because there is no labor certification process, and therefore, the process is (allegedly) streamlined and much faster. My own anecdotal evidence suggests that EB filings can often take longer than H-1B filings, unfortunately.
Advocacy for H-1Bs shouldn't happen at the immigration stage, it should happen at the legislation stage. Lawyers interested in these issues should be spending their time lobbying on Capitol Hill, not going to administrative hearings where some ALJ rubber-stamps your petition.
# 44 Classical Liberal Warrior Against Terrorism
They applied for 22 K visas their workforce is 72K. Thats more than a quarter.
http://www.dailyindia.com/show/144719.php/Infosys-looking-for-acquisitions-to-expand-global-footprint
Nice post. I agree with everyone--even if they don't agree with each other:)
As a 2nd gen desi programmer w/ an advanced degree in cs from a "top" institution, I'm in the process of getting outsourced for 3rd time in about 6 years. (One time meant no job for six months & working for $7.00/hr to get by) There are still jobs but it's still stressful, frustrating, etc., etc. I also know a lot of people in tight visa situations--which is also stressful, frustrating.
Anyway, I propose putting CEOs in stocks:)
Time to brush off the resume (sigh)
To #54: EB used to be an academics-only route, now lots of techies with advanced degrees do it. If you have an MS with a few years of experience, EB2 is much better than LC in terms of waiting/processing. I got my gc on an eb2 self-app with an incredibly good+expensive lawyer.
EB1 is also not that tough. The phrase "National Interest Waiver" is parsed with a lot of leniency. You don't need a Nobel. I know a chap who worked at Chrysler on the blackboxes ( every automobile in USA has blackbox, not so in India). Since blackbox captures data when your car is in an accident, you can argue that it protects the occupant. "Occupant = American", "bunch of Americans = nation", therefore "Blackbox researcher = working in the national interest" !!! Its a stretch. But that fucker got his gc on EB1 on exactly that argument! He was a mediocre techie at best, but he took a chance & got through. My lawyer advised me to try an EB1, I didn't have the balls to lie through my teeth that I was a "national asset"! But enforcement is minimal, so lots of them do. A techie manager with a million dollar account might think he is national asset, but you have a six trillion dollar economy, what is one million in that ?:)
In the arts, EB1 is a huge farce. I know people who've shown "published works" in Indian press ie. written books published by Rupa or some other smalltime Indian publisher - not that hard at all, poetry published in Span etc. & gotten an EB1. Giving EB1 for poets is quite laughable imo - how do you quantify the value of a poem - and what's the guarantee the poet will continue to be creative churning out poems after he gets the visa :) If you show you have an award from India for Bharatnatyam or working in Theatre etc, again EB1 becomes viable - again very dubious, since neither is getting award in India that hard ( especially if you know the right people), nor is there significant economic value for Bharatnatyam in USA.
I think the USA needs to make it clear whether they want immigrants for variety ( cultural variety ie. poetry, Bharatnatyam etc. ) or for economic output ( techies ), or for populating underserved areas ( currently all Indian doctors must serve 3 years in a rural USA community ) or for watering your lawns ( mexicans ). All of these are legitimate uses, but atleast have different visas/quotas for each category. How does it make any sense for an MS with three patents to compete with a physics doctorate with 10 peer reviewed journals with Bharatnatyam dancer with a poet, all in the same visa ? Ridiculous.
First and the biggest problem is H1b has become a catch-all category. Different groups of immigrants with different aspirations and different types of employers -- corporations, universities and research institutes with divergent priorities -- are all forced to use it. It's impossible to fix this category in a way that will please everyone -- independent doctors/researchers/post-docs who should not be tied to an employer, skilled scientists and engineers with advanced degrees from US schools who are working for American corporations and who want to become permanent residents, foreign IT professionals on short-term projects working for employers with long-term focus on outsourcing the same projects, and all the different groups of employers -- and also ensure that there is no abuse. A more radical solution is needed.
Second problem is the country-of-origin restrictions for employment-based immigration visas. This is not strictly tied to H1B category, but since most of the wait time and the consequent frustrations during H1b-GC transtition arise of out this restriction, it is not entirely unrelated. A lot has changed in US-India trade relations, technology partnerships, political dynamics and immigration patterns since these restrictions were put in place. USCIS has been inconsistent and not at all transparent about how visas from unfilled categories/countries are reused to ease the priority date pains.
Finally, the spouses of H1b -- or at least some of the subcategories of H1b after breaking it down -- should be allowed to work.
Regarding ABD lawyers, Rajiv Khanna at Immigration Portal and Sheela Murthy at murthy.com have done some great work. But they can only do so much, it is a legislative problem. Also in general, there is a conflict of interest between immigration lawyers working for employers and the immigrants who are the beneficiaries. Most employers do not necessarily dislike the 5-6 year indenture and the law firms benefit from a confusing and painful process involving a lot of paperwork.
As an H1-B, I survived two rounds of outsourcing . In my former big tech company, I saw the constant march toward lowering costs. The only way to stay ahead of the curve seemed to be to get out of the way since the outsourced jobs were definitely moving up the value chain. So I went ahead and got my MBA and now am a Management Consultant who advises on "cost-cutting" strategies .
To the commentators above,
No..All H1-B's do not hate the American way of life but I do not have much respect for people who sit around and expect to be protected against hungrier competition from the developing world.
We do not leave our families and friends and come here to get our parents here on the dole. In fact, most H1-B parents I know including mine have to be "bribed and threatened" to make a trip here.
All of us do not speak with funny accents, have bad grammar and get bad haircuts. Maybe we all do so when we first come here , Fresh Off the Boeing, but a lot of us make conscious efforts to change and understand that it is necessary to do so if we want to fit in and prosper in corporate America.
im not saying everyone is. im actually pro increasing the populaiton of the US through importing motivated types. but...i just hear it a lot. grating on the ears.
Thanks Amardeep for bringin up this issue. I have been in US for more then 6 1/2 years and still life is too uncertain for me to do basic quality of life things like buy a house (I will have to leave if I get laid off). I have seen people with same time line from other countries get the green card years before and I am still in limbo. I thought the new bill will help people like me too. But it seems it pays to be illegal rather then bust your back to make sure every move made by you is legal.
Check this out, according to the new bill, if you were illegal before jan 1, you will immediately get an EAD and promise of reentry to united states and if you don't have a criminal record then a guaranteed green card in about 10 years. The key word here is the EAD, who cares if you cant vote for a few years more if you can at least work wherever you want. But if you are here legally and stuck in the EB green card quagmire, not only they will not give relief to you, they will reduce the number of green card alloted per year. So this way millions of illegals will become legal and a few hundred thousand legals will stay stuck. You just got to admire the genius of the people who wrote this bill.
Immigration Voice is doing a great job and I encourage everyone in the similar situation to get involved there www.immigrationvoice.org
What a generally interesting and informative discussion.
*I don't think it's fair to say a second, third gen'er is 'rabid and right wing' because they might have a different idea about immigration than someone who is a first gen'er. It's not about solidarity; why should someone have more solidarity to someone they don't know, simply because they are more brown, than the country and community they live in?
**I'd like to see some healthy immigration reform because I am pro-immigrant, I want to see healthy levels of immigration to this country and because I love the 'melting pot' and can-do spirit of the US. The question is: what is a healthy level of immigration? It's not so easy to answer that question. The last really large wave of immigration (in the early part of the 20th century) was stopped for a time (for lots of reasons, the depression and legislation, etc) and then things settled, and then they picked up again. I hear a lot of disgruntlement from people I thought I'd never hear stuff from, about how unfair the system is and the costs of large scale immigration.
***I think it's a messy, bureacratic, 'unfair' seeming system where someone can play by the rules and get shafted, and someone else can bend the rules and make it through because of the inefficiences of the immigration-industrial complex (okay, that's not funny, but it's what it feels like). I honestly have no idea what to do, but it's got to be fixed. I don't want people to sour on the immigrant character of this nation. What a mess.
Also, can we back off on the anti-ABCD or anti-FOB stuff? It cuts both ways, by the way, it's not just ABCDs sneering at FOBs. I've lost track of the number of times I've heard newer immigrants making fun of people who have been here awhile. Just be friendly and decent to each other: is that so hard?
"aaal wee are saaayinggg is giive peeace a chaaance..."
HAHAHAHA!
Oh, and one final thing: I generally agree that I don't have much sympathy for people who are afraid of competition (easy for me to say, given how regulated MDs are, but hey, I argue in my world to open up the programs more, so I ain't one of 'em), it is up to the citizens of this nation to decide how they want their country to be, and what they want their country to be. Same thing with Indians deciding what India should be; I'm not an Indian citizen, so who am I to say?
*I'd prefer a point system, like Australia, rather than the family reunification thing. And, frankly, I bet there are some desis who, secretly, would be relieved. "Oh, sorry, I can't sponsor (name of pain in the ass relative here) you! It's just not possible under the new laws."
Joke, joke. To lighten things up.
Haha, Puliogre in da USA! It would just suck if the thread got high-jacked by the disaffected. And, yes, it does bother me when people who live here complain so much about it. Whatever. You made your choices. Learn to live with them.
i think we should just let in people that have good degrees in economically useful subjects. and let in a $Hitload of them. I think the US has a lot of people with che-che majors.
ABCD..down down ! FOB up up !
Ha..... :-)
It is not hard to understand priorities in the immigration bill that is weighed against legal H1-B immigrants. The choice for a congressman is very easy...12 million votes or half-a-million.
I have seen so many talented people of all nationalities leave after they gets their master's 'coz they dont want to deal with the visa issues. As someone mentioned above, give them a green card with their graduate degrees. The universities have already done the the job of selecting the cream and giving them an education in the best system in the world. Now why exactly do you not want them to stay ?? Crazy !!!
You
If someone was making that kind of a choice in india, then came to the US. why would they then spend so much time talking smack about the US and talking up india?!
To #40 Tambram...
I believe you are misguided in this. As a foreign med grad, you ONLY have to take Steps 1 and 2 (both the clinical skills and written part) in order to get a US residency spot. Then you take Step 3 either at the end of your US intern year (the same as your US counterparts) or after residency is completed (I think this depends on which state you are in). This is true no matter which country you did your schooling in (Canada is on special terms with US and vice versa). In fact, in order to start a residency, regardless of origin, i.e., even US-trained, you have to have completed Steps 1 and 2. (there might be some programs with exceptions for step 2, but I've never heard of 'em. In fact, most schools require passing Step 2 before they will let you graduate)
Do you have any proof of this? I've never seen/heard of this before. You only have to do your residency training (and in some cases, only a fellowship) in the US, not repeat medical school (which is what earns you the MD).
Neale,
I think MD's point - which I agree with - is that if you move to the US, its the height of bad manners and bad taste to complain about it constantly or say that you "hate it".
But I do not think it is wrong to speak up about unfairness /injustice / discrimination regardless of whether you are a guest /visitor/citizen.
There are good parts and bad parts to every culture whether Indian /American .
Why not just pick the good ones to emulate from each without painting the whole culture as bad ?
[i]I hear this from immigrants from other Asian countries as well. It really pisses me off. They should really leave and seek employment and schooling elsewhere as soon as they can if they hate it so much.[/i]
Well there might be a few who really dislike(hate?) America and are here and that is indeed messed up, and those people should be thrown out. But at least the ones I have talked to who express interest in going back, it's more about just being where they consider home. They are here because they can experience a different place and cultures, acquire new skills and make some money and then they go back. Is that really so wrong?
Or you are assuming that the H1-B/F-1 program is a big favor and charity to let people come here and so people should feel gratitude? The H1-B program is there because the US feels it benefits the American economy and thats why it's there. F-1 students do a lot of higher end research in most Univs and the Ugrads shell out big dollars. If people on H1-B/F-1 abide by the laws, pay their taxes and do whats expected of them (legally, work wise, etc) while they are here - I think it's unfair to place expectations on them to be indebted to the US. It's pure capitalism at work here too from both sides.
It's not always about loyalty to flag and all that. I have many family members who bitch about Mumbai after spending 50+ years in that hellhole. They just have this romanticised version of their hometown frozen in their minds.
#59: "The only way to stay ahead of the curve seemed to be to get out of the way since the outsourced jobs were definitely moving up the value chain. So I went ahead and got my MBA and now am a Management Consultant who advises on "cost-cutting" strategies ."
Good for you! What you did out of necessity has to become a program. There is no point in tinkering with immigration policy to correct what is a non-immigration issue - global competition. Even if the US scrapped the H-1B program altogether, the American IT worker will not automatically become safe from global competition. Offshoring will assume new shapes and sizes.
Where will it all end? The consensus among the economists, most of whom tend to be free market thinkers these days, is that open global competition ultimately benefits all players.
To counter H. L. Mencken, "Nobody went broke underestimating the wiles of American capitalism." The world has been predicting the demise of the American economy the day the first textile mill closed in the fifties and the first shipload of Japanese automobiles arrived at our shores in the sixties. Since those turning points, check the GDP growth, unemployment rates, per capita income, and every other index used to measure a nation's economic health.
To tabram #57
And your source of this is...? I've never seen/heard of this. I've met plenty of people in the last few years who were FMGs (both Indian and non-Indian), came here to do residencies, and then joined either a practice or did academics.
Immigration is a privilege, not an entitlement. So is citizenship, driving, etc.
Instead of second gen lawyers defending H1-b's, I suggest they defend second and third gen victims of h-1b visa abuse.
Second gen's welcome competition; on a level field.
If you don't like the immigration system here, there is a very good alternative. Go back to India. I guarantee you won't be charming snakes.
sure. but im sure that they dont say things like "bombayites have no culture. they Are stupid and lazy", all while taking full advantages of the ocnvenience and benefits of living there. maybe they do. i dont know. seems wrong though.
if your born here, it is an entitlement. what did the f*t f*ck on the desk next to me (or me for that matter) do to deserve this privaledge. nothing. my dad came here. i was born here. i am a citizen.
To 71: I never said you have to repeat medical school. afaik, whether you have an MBBS from India, or an MBBS+MD, it makes no difference to the application procedure in the US ie. your MD portion from India is basically worth nothing. The Indian-MBBS is 5.5 years, the Indian-MD an additional 3 years - but the US only considers the Indian MBBS portion.
More here. I'll check with one of the desi docs out here.
#73
of course, it is not charity - this is clearly a symbiotic relationship. and even if the indian employees are not more qualified than american counterparts, they still fulfill a need of the american companies. however you cannot forget that in the realm of politics and international law, allowing somebody from the outside to reside in your country is a matter of privilege, not right. eventually, perhaps we will have some sort of global citizenship, but that is clearly a long while off. for now, we have to accept that, given the delineation of nation-states, nobody has any right to live or stay in a country of which they are not a citizen (and as the case may be in the US, sometimes not even that).
#74
this is true of almost all migrants, international or otherwise. i suppose, a sentimental loyalty. it is so for my parents' generations (who came after the 1965 laws) and they still refuse to accept how much india has changed - in many ways they are far more conservative and traditional than their counterparts who stayed in india.
And your source of this is...?
Go to USCIS webpage.
There is a visa category (I think a subcategory within H) for physicians and nurses that requires them to serve in rural areas for three years for that visa.
The point is: anything less than a smart attorney knows all the rules and visas, and they do have to keep up with the changes. There is a visa named after all the alphabets, then number suffixes.
Dudes, people came and go on their free will, they are no obligation to be "subservient" to the nation of residence, and not talk smack. Should they kiss your a**, and every Amrikan's a** all the time. Some of the people complaining here, if I met them in IRL, I would complain about USA too. I am glad my girl friend is an blonde exotic dancer, bambi. Yes, I am very happy with USA.
Floridan #75
Well said !
Now if we could get Lou Dobbs to shut up on his doom and gloom scenarios for the American Economy ! This might be one of the most challenging times that the American Economy has had to face in terms of global competition but I have no doubt that in the need we will all be better off. So what if China turns out to be the biggest economy in the world; a richer and a more evenly prosperous world can only be a good thing.
Puliogre, MD, Runa
I am sure you understand that it is not easy to leave one country and live im another. Lock (steel trunk), stock (some good pickle), and barrel (of tradition) :-).
Of course, there will be resentment. I see it more as a reaction. Something instinctibe that evens out as time passes and a "second" maturity sets in . But i am sure for the most part Indian immigrants do appreciate the basic driving forces that make this country what it is.
To #76: MSU & HPSA Have a dozen neighbors, all of them "doing time" in this MSU. None of them would be here voluntarily, they can make the big bucks in a large metro.
i agree. and this a frequent argument against treating naturalized and native-born citizens differently - for instance naturalized citizens may not become presidents, and there is always that threat of deportation. i feel, in many ways, a naturalized citizen has displayed far more loyalty to the country by moving here and staying and affirnatively seeking citizenship, as opposed to the other category, who are citizens by default. but in the current parlance of politics, gaining citizenship is never a right, and always only a privilege. it is a position that may or may not be justified, but it is what it is...
Neale - not everyone who comes to the US is in such dire straights back in India, you know that as well as I do. what I am saying is, why live in the US and complain about it ? Will you be happier? And by complain, I don't mean make honest criticisms, I mean, complain about daily life here while romaticizing something that was never perfect to begin with. It's easy to do and very human. And it's not the best way to live life.
not saying they should kiss our @ss. just saying they should either preffer the US, and stay here, or they should preffer !ndia and go back. why stay here, and complain constantly about how bad it is and how great india is.
Kush:
Ok, that might be for a special visa as you stated, but that is not true for ALL indian doctors, which is what the original commenter was implying, at least the way it was written.
Tambram:
When you say "re-do your MD", that implies (at least to most folks familiar with the US medical system) that you are redoing the schooling to get your Doctor of Medicine (MD) degree (which is what 4 years of med school in the US gets you). Apparently your usage/application of MD differs from this - that this is an additional qualification you earn in India.
If citizenship has rights, does it have duties and responsibilities too?
does peanut butter go with jelly?
i don't know about anybody else, but in my family, complaining is a really more of a pastime than anything else. i mean, my mom and aunts complain just to complain (in tamil, i think the best word for it is 'polambal' - sort of like empty complaining). it is to the point that i just tune it out. and it's not just them - some desis have a tendency to just complain - see the glass as half empty. i don't know what to make of it, but i have learned that with some people, it really means very little.
Tambram #57:
I didn't mean to imply that EBs were available only to academics...just that the route seems more common in the academic world. Sorry about that.
Just FYI, self-sponsorship (either as EB-1 or EB-2) has become a huge headache since the reorganization of the INS, and its move to Homeland Security from USDoJ. It's taking approximately the same amount of time (and in some cases, longer) as it does with LC. I'm not sure why, but there seems to be some sort of roadblock. This is entirely anecdotal, and it wouldn't surprise me to discover that the statistics tell exactly the opposite story.
Okay, now I'm hungry, No Desh.
I was responding, obliquely, to some others upthread.....we have a lot of talk about rights and how it's just a lottery that you are born in the US. Well, it sort of is. It's a stroke of luck to be born here and have the advantages this country has. It didn't just happen; it happened because of lots of hard work, good (and some bad) governance, a whole history that is messy and striving and difficult. People living here worked hard to make the US what it is; and people have died for the ideals represented. That's all I'm saying. It's not all about rights, and that's a reminder to ABCDs like myself as much as anyone else :)
i think it does. a broad category of civic duties probably encompasses this. for instance, voting in elections is seen as a duty - esp. outside of the us, and in some countries it is mandatory - rather than a right. other countries require mandatory army service, or such the things. loyalty could also be considered a duty - to vow not to commit treasonous acts etc.
MD - I think the whole responsibility bit is lost on many folks (across the spectrum) when it comes to rights.
That's interesting ak. I wonder if it is a cultural difference? I make the point, jokingly, to my mother from time to time. The glass is half empty, it seems, when she talks about some things. It's just a way to talk, I suppose. Whereas, I was taught to be all 'glass half full' from school onwards. I also said the pledge of allegiance as a kid an