June 01, 2007
Rajasthan's 5.5 Million Gujjars Want a DowngradeNews
From our news tab, via the Times Online:
For thousands of years India’s ethnic Gujjars have been looked down on by much of society, as they were traditionally pastoralists who raised sheep, goats and water buffalo.
Now, as India approaches the 60th anniversary of its independence, the Gujjars have had enough, and are demanding that their social status be changed. But in an unusual example of how caste works in modern India, they want to be downgraded to the lowest level so that they can benefit from an affirmative action scheme.
Tens of thousands of Gujjars have blocked roads and railway lines in the northwestern state of Rajasthan since Tuesday, accusing the local government of reneging on a promise to lower their status. At least 15 people, including two police officers, have been killed in rioting when the Gujjars repeatedly set alight police property and attacked government offices.
They’ve deployed the Indian Army to regulate this hot mess, especially since it is now affecting tourism.
The violence has fuelled criticism of India’s affirmative action scheme under which lower castes are given preferential access to government jobs and education…
I have heard of Scheduled Castes and Other Backward Classes, but I hadn’t heard of Scheduled Tribes. I await your scathing declarations of how I am a stupid ABCD who knows nothing about India and should therefore shut up. Whatevs, yo. I just found the following paragraph helpful, since the entire reservations/caste furor IS confusing for this bear of little brain.
The Hindu caste system, which enforces a strict social hierarchy from brahmins at the top to dalits at the bottom, was outlawed after India became independent in 1947. But to correct its injustices the Government divides the lower levels of society into Scheduled Castes (SC), Scheduled Tribes (ST) and Other Backward Classes (OBC). SC includes untouchables and others at the bottom; ST consists of ethnic minorities and OBC comprises other people who were traditionally discriminated against.
Regarding the “downgrade”, the Gujjars want to switch from OBC to ST status.
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Now be honest girls, how many of you are thinking of a certain commercial since I’ve used the term “downgrade” excessively? ;)
Speaking of things in XS, that website is excessively LOUD. I was wearing headphones when I discovered it; I think I’m partially deaf now.
anna on June 1, 2007 09:35 AM in Issues, News · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
The firing of Rajastan state police on the initial Gujjar raly which caused a few fatalities were likened to "Jalianwala Baug massacre" by Sachin Pilot a parliamentarian from Dausa, Rajasthan. It may have to do with the fact that Sachin Pilot is the son of Rajesh Pilot the powerful politician, who was a Gujjar and a good freind of Rajiv Gandhi.
The TRUE Schedule Tribes are in my opinion the MOST in-need group for affirmative action. Schedule Tribe includes groups who until quite recently were completely cut off from main stream society and were living in the woods. BJP and RSS came up with a name "vanvasi" for them which literally means, "those who live in the jungle".
The Gujjar BTW cant be called ST in any stretch of imagination. IMO.
SCs and STs were original beneficiaries of reservations as both are considered "outside" the Hindu caste system rather than at the bottom of it, though of course reformists and politicians have been trying to claim them as Hindu for census and political purposes for over a century.
Whatever the politics of the matter, the fact that people were fired on and died for protesting is a disgrace, as is the Rajasthan govt more generally. You might remember that a couple of years ago they fired on poor farmers who had no water and were protesting a sweetheart deal given to cola manufacturing plants for regular supplies. Whasserface the PM, Rajmata Scindia, is too busy having temples built in her honour and posters depicting her as a goddess made by party functionaries trying to suck up to her to actually bother with things like governing and looking out for the interests of her constituents.
This is not a new leaf in Indian caste politics. There were always some caste asking to be downgraded. Everyone wants a piece of that anti-discrimination pie. SCs want to be ST, OBC to SC, FC to BC..., I dont think this would ever end. I was wondering why there was violence in Rajastan, thanks for filling us in.
One of the Gujjar peeves is that Jats were able to downgrade themselves to OBC. This intensified the competition within the OBC. The Gujjars want to get some relief from this competition by downgrading themselves to SC. The Gujjar effort is being resisted by the Meenas, who are already SC.
A similar kind of turf war is going on with Dalit Christians. Being Christians, they are eligible for a relgious minority quota. But the competition in that quota is severe. So the Dalit Christians want to be eligible for the SC quota as well, which has less competition.
A Supreme Court bench said "nowhere in the world Castes queue to be branded as backward. Nowhere is there a competition to become backward".
These are people who tried to rid the country of British Rule in 1857. They should be upgraded and given a special affirmative action program of their own that would start a run on affirmative action programs...prolly more effective than Chinese style forcible redistribution of wealth, and empower folks with a history of resisting foreign domination.
You see Anna, India has the best black humour.
Indianoguy - the definition of Dalits was that they were supposed to be too low for the caste system (below shudras). There was a 19C reformist movement that campaigned to have them recognised as "within" the Hindu caste order, for census purposes.
P.G. Wodehouse, do Christians get a quota in govt institutions too? I'm surprised, this is the first I'm hearing of it - I thought that quota only applied to missionary schools and historically Christian institutions.
i find it so interestong that desi christians have developed their own form of caste system. the first time i had even heard of this was in god of small things. i assume this is only prevalent in indian christianity, and that, too, because of hindu influences - can anybody enlighten on how/when this came about?
Ah, I was waiting for this Friday's 55.
i never knew how all u could come up with such nice poetry so fast. would take me ages to think of that kind of thing.
Well, in my experience many (upper caste) Indians don't know this either---though their ignorance is that they know the term SC/ST but not necessarily what it stands for; and they don't know exactly what other backward classes are. So in a sense you know more than them.
Anna,
All you had to do was read the comments especially this one, on your previous blog on Why does caste matter to US to know about Dalit, SC, ST and the list from the Indian Census. Because of the incentives given everybody in India want's to become backward. I linked this in a comment on the other thread, Without quota, every caste would be a forward caste.
4 · Prasad on June 1, 2007 12:30 PM · Direct link
"Everyone wants a piece of that anti-discrimination pie."
You will be surprised how many desi owned businesses right here in the US are getting a piece of the American pie because of the set-asides for minority and female owned businesses. Any desi business that has anything to sell to any government agency is an ideal candidate. A female desi owned business is an even stronger candidate. These programs, I have heard, are not handouts. The female or minority owned businesses have to meet the standards and they do compete among themselves for the allocations set aside for minority owned businesses.
Wouldn't it be great if all desi owned businesses in the US contributed a portion of the profits earned from minority contracts to SC's and ST's in India?
I have zero knowledge of caste politics so someone please humor me.
I fail to understand this about affirmative action - shouldn't everyone who is a OBC/SC/ST/etc have an equal quota? Lets say there are a total 20 ethnic groups identified for affirmative action, why shouldn't they be treated equally (5% each group). Isn't equality the ultimate aim?
SP:
"do Christians get a quota in govt institutions too? I'm surprised, this is the first I'm hearing of it - I thought that quota only applied to missionary schools and historically Christian institutions."
I agree that my post was not clear. Dalit Christians have to compete with non-Dalit Christians in missionary schools; that competition is quite strong. Suppose now that Dalit Christians can be eligible for the SC quota. Then a wider range of possibilities open up for them. However, some Dalits are apprehensive of a turf war. Here's a quote from The Times of India: "But another line of thought says that new entrants will encroach upon their welfare pie. The fear is that well-placed Dalits among Christians will eat into the 15% job and educational quota available to SCs".
Please note that the "affirmative action" use here is NOT the same as affirmative action in the US. In the US (simple version), those that use affirmative action do not reserve spaces, rather, when two people are merit-based identical, the minority applicant gets the position over the majority applicant.
I think that the current scheduled tribes were classified as "criminal tribes" by the British system as they had shown some resistance to British rule, whatever that might be. Anybody have more information?
15 - Floridian:
Once their business gets into act, they have to deal with providing benefits and such for the affirmative section :) I know quite a few people who run businessess and they dont want to grow beyond 11 employees, lest they have to prove that they are EOE.
Christians do not get reservations in any Government jobs or colleges. We get no piece of the reservation pie. (too small a community to have any electoral impact in today’s India where demography and the size of your votebank largely determines your clout in society)
Christians do have reservations/ quota in some private Christian run educational institutions. They are by no means the only minority to get this benefit. For example in Mumbai, even linguistic minorities like Sindhi Hindus and Gujarati Hindus ( 2 of the richest communities in Bombay) run private educational institutes and reserve seats for their community.
The issue is that Dalits who convert to Christianity LOSE all reservation benefits. This is what the struggle for reservations for Dalit Christians is about. A Dalit who converts to Sikhism or Buddhism DOES NOT lose reservation benefits. (Even though like Christianity, Sikhism and Buddhism are supposed to be casteless).
Just to clarify... private minority religious educational institutions receive money from the government regardless of language of instruction.
For linguistic minorities (eg gujaratis, sindhis etc), they only get public funding if their language is the language of instruction (religion is irrelevant).
'Hindu' educational institutions do not receive any funding.
Private institutions are, for the most part, free to let in whoever they want and set up quotas as they wish.
I believe you are correct if they come under the aided category (and most do)
There are well known engineering and professional colleges in Mumbai that have reservations for communities like Sindhis/ Gujaratis where the medium of instuction is English. But I think at primary school level you may be correct about the language of instructions provision.
Private aided colleges still have to obey the reservation quota for SC/ ST/ OBC.
Even if the colleges doesn't take monetary support from government, they have to obey the reservation quota for SC/ST. Some of them need not obey the OBC quota - that is, if they want Indian govt recognition.
An example in higher education, ISB (Hyd) doesnt obey and our world class coveted AICTE doesnt accredit their programs...what shame, what loss, really? :))
GoanDude:
"The issue is that Dalits who convert to Christianity LOSE all reservation benefits. "
On the other hand, Dalits who convert to Christianity are eligible for quota in convent schools. The problem is that the gain an op-ed on the subject, and readers responded.
Not sure why Dalits who convert to Sikhism or to Buddhism get to retain SC benefits. Are Dalit Sikhs eligible for two quotas---as Dalits (caste-based quota) and as Sikhs (religion-based quota)? What about Dalit Buddhists?
I realize that I'm causing the thread to deviate a little from its main course. SM Intern, please feel free to delete if you think it is a thread-jack.
>>I await your scathing declarations of how I am a stupid ABCD who knows nothing about India and should therefore shut up.
I, for one, am not so concerned when 2-Gen desis do not know the intricacies of socio-politics in India related to reservation. However, I am concerned that most 2-Gen desis whom I personally encounter in the US have been sold lock-stock-and-barrel on the benefits of affirmative action, even though it hurts desis!
A snippet from a conversation from some time ago (A=2Gen, D=1Gen):
D1: Did you know that they are increasing reservation in India for OBC's?
D2: Yeah. Boy that country is going down the tubes day by day.
D1: Tell me about it. I'm so glad I got out of there.
D3: The only hope is private enterprise. Increased reservation in a diminishing public-sector scenario will not help anyone, but hurt everyone.
D2: Now they're asking for reservation in private sector also.
D3: What do these people smoke?
D1: Well, even here you have Affirmative action.
A1: Affirmative action is not that bad, uncle.
D1: Did you know that they denied a seat to an Asian student in Princeton simply because there were too many Asians?
D2: What? They should sue!
D3: He is suiing. He got into Yale, but he is still going ahead with the lawsuit. Hope he wins.
A2: No... the lawsuit is wrong.
D3: Why? He was discriminated solely because of his race.
A1: Well, diversity is a good thing.
D1: Nobody is denying that. But forced diversity causes worse long-term problems, much like forced integration caused flight-to-suburbs with all the inner-city problems we are seeing to this day.
A2: College admins work very hard and need the freedom to choose their student body.
D3: Sure. Let them choose. But not based on race. Base it on merit.
A2: What qualifies as merit? Why is a middle-class Asian student with perfect SAT scores and 4.0 GPA better than a student from Harlem, with a broken family, with 3.9GPA and almost-perfect SAT scores? Shouldn't he deserve a chance?
D1: Sure. At Rutgers. Not Princeton.
A1: Why not at Princeton? Can't the admins make that choice?
D3: Sure. But then they have to make it transparent. They have to say that if your skin pigment is above this shade, then you have to have a GPA of...
A2, A1: No no no no...
A3: There is a better reason why AA is good.
D3: Why?
A3: Administraters say that America is a diverse country. If there is no AA, then students of particular color/background will never be represented in many colleges, and these colleges will be entirely White/Indian/Asian. Indeed, there are probably enough Desi/Asian students right now in the tri-state area alone who can fill into every Ivy-league in America.
D3: And the problem with that is...?
A3: My life has been enriched by studying/interacting with people from various races/religions...
D3: And the relevance to the subject is...?
A3: Colleges need to enforce diversity, so that the students get to interact and work with others from various races, backgrounds etc. This is essential to them in their career, and will make the workforce healthier for everyone. Without this, they will be unable to perform their jobs well.
D3: I want to make sure I understand this before responding - are you saying that studying in college with diverse people is a must-have for a successful career?
A1/A2/A3: Yes.
D3: There are about forty examples in this very gathering who refute that theory. Look at me. Look at your parents. Look at all the Engineer uncles and Doctor aunties around you. They all studied only with people from the same race, religion, ethnicity and language. Most of them probably had very little interaction outside their caste. Yet, they came here, and now work well with whites, blacks, muslims, jews, hispanics and Indians from other languages, regions. What does work have to do with all this? There's a job. Money is exchanged hands. What does it have anything to do with diversity?
A1: Are you saying there should be no interaction between various peoples?
D3: Did I say that? I am saying that the Market forces you to have this interaction if you want to make money. It need not be formally stipulated.
A2: I disagree. What will happen to people from certain races who are under-represented?
D1: It's for them to worry about it. Not you. You are the loser in all this.
A1: I don't mind the sacrifice.
D1: So go ahead, Give up your Wharton seat to someone else. Just don't ask others to do it.
A3: The administrators will do the right thing. They are hard working and have empathy. They have to be given the freedom.
D3: They want the freedom to play God, sometimes at taxpayer's expense. Don't you see a problem with that?
A2: Administrators know this better than anyone else. They need to be allowed to make these decisions.
At this point, you wonder if they have been brainwashed beyond hope, and walk off to get another helping of samosas.
M. Nam
Post 25 failed to give the link to the Hindu op-ed article.
is it possible to convert to a lower caste? that would be a sweet way to get into college.
I have personally known people who have bribed their way there. I have also heard of people who plan on doing this as soon as they have a kid, just in case the kid does not do well in school, they could always pull the caste card.
It's ironic that the same folk who treat the lower castes like s*it want to be included in the same SC/ST category as them.
how do you prove your caste? IF you lie about it whose to say your not a low caste guy?
You present a caste certificate.
On Goandude's note....
In Goa "Kunbis" fight a constant battle for reservations since many of them are converts to Christianity...
In Tamil Nadu, Dalit Christians are placed in the OBC pool, so they are in a reserved category, just not the one they'd like to be in.
There have been many 'tribal' communities that have modernised on their own terms. The most interesting example is of Birsa Munda - aka Birsa Bhagawan - who went all the way in adopting a more popular form of Hinduism with the many of the more commonly known rites of passage. No designated tribe or caste lies outside Hinduism. There is no side to it.
The Gujjars are like most other communities; some rich, some poor; some well educated, some who aren't. One of the leaders of the current agitation is a retired colonel from the Indian Army. Crikey! Sachin Pilot another Gujjar, went to Wharton; dash it!
The present crisis has been brewing for quite some time. Before the last state assembly elections (late 2003) a number of communities petitioned the government for some form of economic and educational set aside. The way reservations wok in India is interesting. Instead of watering down merit, it only accentuates it. Now say you are ranking the candidates in an academic entrance test. There are usually 4 groups of them - the open competition/general category where all candidates are rank ordered by marks scored; and then the backward class category; where BC candidates are rank ordered; and then the SC and finally the ST. Now since there is really no significant difference in capabilities between candidates in each of the three reserved classes and the "forward class", a fair number of non-FC candidates have been making it into the general class merit list. Now this crowds out the FC candidates; but worse, it crowds out candidates from other BC/SC/ST communities.
How? In India as a rule it has taken about three generations for the candidates of a community to hit the high notes in entrance tests. But there is a curve here and some communities have been ahead of others - only just though! So when say BC-A candidates have ended up taking 20-30% of the general class and then by virtue of being ahead of the curve, take about 25% of the BC class as well, other BC communities, say BC-A, BC-B, and BC-C become frustrated and then angry as the number of seats is stagnant and BC-A students are now not only taking up 30% of the general class, but almost 50% of the BC quota! What do you do then? Huff and puff and blow the house down!
That's what happened in Tamizh Naadu 20 years ago when the Vanniar Sangam led by Dr. Ramdoss laid waste to 1000s of trees on the Grand Southern Trunk Road blocked highways, burnt down court houses and railway stations and held the whole state to ransom. Ultimately the Vanniars walked out of the DMK and the ADMK and formed their own party - the PMK. In Tamizh Naadu there has been a creeping increase in the quotas, and so while the SC and ST quota has remained constant (it is a Central decision) the BC quota has increased and is now 47%; and added to the SC/ST quota brings it up to a grand total of 69%! As long as a community has remained behind the curve it doesn't care. But once the younger generation starts to forge ahead and hits the quota wall things hot up.
Now in Rajasthan over the last few years the Meenas and the Jats have been dominating the quota game; the Meenas as ST and the Jats as BC. The Gujjars are finding it hard to muscle in to the BC quota as the Jats dominate; so they reasoned they could get reclassified as ST but the Meenas don't want that. And they most certainly don't want to be classified as SC because that would probably be beneath their dignity; and worse still provoke an even bigger fight with the Sc communities of Rajasthan where already some sort of trouble is brewing.
Before the last state elections in Rajasthan the brahmans also announced an agitation for set asides! Over in UP Mayawati took notice of the movement and quickly went ahead building a brahman-dalit coalition! This may happen even in Rajasthan before the next elections in late 2008. Or maybe the Gujjars and brahmans may band together. Since every Rajasthani community is well represented in the Indian armed forces; there is a lot of back channel diplomacy going on between the retired officers and Gujjar representatives. There is no Gujjar regiment; but Gujjars soldiers are usually to be found in both the Rajputs and the RajRif; and a few in the Jat regiment. BTW you don't want to meet any one of them on anything but friendly terms on a dark night unarmed!
Who is to blame? If that were the decider question in Jeopardy I would double my bets and simply say - Kaaangress! During the last three years the Kaangress has simply become the B-team of every half-baked idea infested mad house political party. Its ministers are more lefty loon than the lefty/commie loons themselves. Its babalog are trying to outdo the IU Muslim League in rank communalistic pandering (Rahul Gandhi wore a skull cp and paid a visit to the Dar-ul-Uloom Deobandi madrassa, a place where women may enter only if veiled); and then the next day sported a tikka and visited three mandirs! Its ministers are more casteist than the the casteistic parties themselves; reveale when a hacker outed the party candidate list (in which the candidates' caste affiliation was prominently bolded!). The Kaangress will now try to try to get te Gujjars to break away from the BJP and pitch at a few oterh communities as well to fracture the BJP's pan-Hindu votebank. Next it will ramp up similar efforts in Gujarat (thru Gujjars) and a few other groups and try to upset the BJP's applecart there.
If it wins the next time (Gujarat in 2007) and Rajasthan in 2008; it will appoint a lot junior ministers from the communities that broke away; announce a few sops; and shelve the problem for the next few years until the next agitation breaks out. To the Kaangress, being the feudal party it is, individuals have no identity; only communities exist; and at best families. So Scindia will succeed Scindia, Prasada succeed Prasada, and Pilot succeed Pilot; and all will turn towards the Nehru/Gandhi/Vadra family and perform a shashtanga namaskaram and behave like jellyfish.
Please note: the comment above was edited slightly. Paragraphs were created, but otherwise, nothing was altered.
Thanks, jyotsna, it was getting a bit depressing reading the uninformed ramblings about jati (from both ABDs and IBDs).
Here is another analysis from a left-wing intellectual. My only criticism is that she underplays the damage done by the statist sarkar is mai-baap model popularized by Nehru and then firmly cemented into local politics by Indira-ji. The real issue is lack of economic expansion w.r.t. the exploding population but she only discusses that in the last lines of her article.
Caste, tribe, and the politics of reservation
MoorNam @26 - Good one :-)
Jyotsana @35, That was a detailed analysis. Btw, do you frequent bharatrakshak?
To the preachers of Affirmative Action, Indian system is an example of how things can go wrong. AA is no different to taking drugs... the addiction is quite difficult to break AND you have all these politicians ensuring a constant supply.
The best analogy to the uni-directional (it can only go up) reservations policy is the childhood story of a girl named Pandora :)
Jyotsana,
You forget that it was the BJP government that declared Jats an OBC in Rajasthan in 1999 for purely electoral purposes - this after coming to power in many states by railing against Mandal and the extension of reservations to OBCs. And the idea that no tribe or caste lies outside hinduism might come as a bit of a surprise to some of the beef-eating tribes.
Can we not have a discussion about Affirmative Action in the U.S. unless people will at least pretend to make relevant and insightful comments? I know that's a tall order, but the reservation system in India is NOT AT ALL like the system in the U.S. Further, both the mention and analysis of the Princeton case point to a general failing in understanding the bigger picture of college admissions, rankings, race, and socioeconomics.
FYI, in case you want to sign this
http://petitions.aidindia.org/Rajasthan/
There certainly are similarities, in principle and spirit at least.
THe point was, albeit selfish, that desis should not support AA as it would never help them.
MoorNam - Bloody good one.
Why is it so unfair to compare US version of AA and the Indian version of AA.
As someone who got shafted on both versions of AA I am convinced both suck but in varying degrees.
AA and Reservations have the same end goal - a more equal society. Whether that is a goal that is compatible with market economics is a moot point.
Have met very few ABDs who have not been convinced that AA is good for them despite it being self defeating. I guess it is similar to the many Southern voters who vote against their economic interest when they choose Republicans over Democrats. Triumph of values over hunger!!!
I wonder why the same folks who so strongly advocate AA in the academic arena almost never advocate the same in the Sporting or Musical Arena.
If AA is so good, why not make it applicable in all realms of human endeavour not just getting into Harvard. I certainly deserve preferential treatment in the NBA draft (i am 170 cms)
Latin Christians from Kerala would fall under the Central OBC quota. Have been since the 50's if I am not mistaken. Other Christian communities in Kerala are not OBC's. The strange thing is that intermarriage between various Christian rites in Kerala is not uncommon - very common between the Latin and Syrian communities. So it does not make sense to have the Latins - OBC and the Syrian - FC.
In response to Camille @ #40 and MoorNam @ #25: I concur, Camille, with the last sentence of your comment, but it seems useless to expect any insight from MoorNam (Now, Mr. MoorNam, I am going to be rather blunt, so apologies in advance if I am hurtful.) nowadays. MoorNam sounds more and more like one of those puffed-up arseholes who call in on talk-radio shows with content-free utterances -- peppered with references to the Battle of Thermopylae, or to Marcus Aurelius, or occasionally to Max Weber, to lend an appearance of learning to the said utterances.
MoorNam, I am not calling you a puffed-up arsehole, so please don't be offended, but I am saying that your rhetorical technique is one that's most favoured by bigots. Let's examine why your comment @26 would appear on the blotter as a shit 'n' run incident:
a) Irrelevance : Your "views" have, at best, a tenuous relation to the crux of this discussion, yet you choose to ram them in -- and this isn't the first time you've done this -- unabashedly.
b) The absence of evidence : You "reproduce" an alleged conversation you eavesdropped upon -- which features some unbelievably caricatured dialogues -- and we're expected to accept this hearsay evidence as substantiating something socially significant!?!
c) The absence of nuance : After this snippet
you go on to present D1 -- who, to some of us who work in academia and have to make tough calls on issues of merit vs background, would appear like a close-minded, socially-insensitive prick -- as the fount of all wisdom. This is utterly lacking in nuance. There is much work on social policy -- some of it even finding favour among free-marketeers -- that opines that, given the relative fluidity of the term "merit" at college-entrance age, and given that the Asian kid would make it into Penn anyhow, allowing the kid from Harlem, even if she had just a 3.7, into Princeton would be a better investment than letting her go to Rutgers. Try out "Distributive Justice: Some Addenda." Natural Law Forum (1968) 13: 51-71, for instance.
(d) Intellectual dishonesty : Reading some of what you write, I refuse to believe that you are so unintelligent as to be completely aware of the nuances alluded to in (c). If so, your pig-headed lack of balance can only be classified as intellectual dishonesty.
If you expect any respect, you should at least avoid the shit 'n' run tactics that #26 exemplifies. At the very least, to lend some credibility to that looong conversation that, you claim, substantiates your point, you could tell us when/where it happened. Notice: I am not even demanding nuance from you -- just basic journalistic contextualisation!! If you don't do that, you'll not get much respect. On the other hand, you could be a disrespect-junkie, in which case it is all good :-)
In response to Camille @ #40 and MoorNam
@ #25: I concur... OOPS; should be "MoorNam @ #26!SP
It is true that the BJP declared the Jats OBC, but where's that compared to the rest - Weepy Singh, Kaangress, and the Tamizh Naadu twins - DMK and ADMK? BJP railing against Mandal? Surely you are joking?! The BJP has always supported OBC reservations and continues to do it rather aggressively. In fact now with Arjun Singh latest folly stuck in the Courts the BJP has been hectoring the Kaangess, accusing it of a slipshod implementation. Dash it! The BJP state leaders are all OBC.SP
Absolutely not! It is simply a chatterati ploy to make these artificial divisions. There is no "core/essential Hinduism. So to say that community X is not Hindu in the same way that a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon is not a Christian; is incorrect. In Kerala beef is popular among the Hindus; there are scores of eating places dubbed "Nair Mess" in Tamizh Naadu where beef is served.Moornam: I would like to see empirical evidence of affirmative action being a net loss for Indians in the US.
The BJP came round to the idea of supporting OBC reservations in the mid-1990s, rather reluctantly. Was fairly opposed earlier, and the ABVP, its student wing, was at the forefront of anti-Mandal protests. As for declaring that adivasis have always been "hindu," that's an extremely controversial idea and there's lots of historical evidence against it, particularly when you look at the social structures and worship practices of adivasis historically. But then again, the concept of "hindu" is itself something of a construct. But I don't think it's particularly useful to get into a discussion with someone with strong ideological convictions on the matter. The crikeys and dash-its are amusing, though.
I agree the caste-based reservations are different enough from US-style affirmative action that they shouldn't be conflated to either bash or defend.
On a recent visit to India, I was in Gurgaon (a satellite city of Delhi, full of new malls, restaurants, apartment buildings, hotels, clubs, etc. i.e. a very flashy, modern place by Indian standards). Amidst all the modernity, one day I saw a group of Gujjars, all traditionally dressed in their turbans and desi clothes, heavy jewelry even on the men, big mustaches, herding their animals down a street lined with brand new apartment buildings. It was a beautiful sight...but also poignant and sad, as you saw one relic of a vanishing lifestyle, being swamped by an invasion of the new. Talk about culture clash. The whole scene just moved me for some reason. They looked GREAT but I'm sure to most people living there, they were "low-caste" pains in the ass, especially when their animals block traffic.
More on Gujjars.
In the past, they were a more powerful and influential people. Pakistani districts like Gujarat (yes, Gujarat) and Gujranwala, as well as the Indian state of Gujarat, along with a whole host of other place names, are testimony to former glory.
Another example of downgrading.
What makes the case of the Gujjars interesting are its implications:
1. When the British started their caste censuses and hopeless attempts to classify jatis all over India in terms of a fixed caste hierarchy, they faced a similar phenomenon: all kinds of jati groups wrote letters and started petitions to argue that they belonged to a higher echelon of the hierarchy. The many jatis of which it was totally unclear whether they were 'Kshatriyas' or 'Shudras' or whatever were indignant when they were classified at a low level. Today, we see the reverse phenomenon: because it has become economically and politically more interesting to belong to the SCs, STs and OBCs, leaders from the same jatis argue that they are way down in the caste hierarchy.
2. This shows how the caste system is not an empirical structure in Indian society, but just a classificatory system that can be used for all kinds of pragmatic economic and political goals. That is, there is no fixed caste hierarchy in society, but it is an image that plays an important role in political discourse. Hence, according to the goals one intends to reach, one can easily switch from arguing that one's group belongs to the so-called 'upper castes' to insisting that it is really a 'lower or backward caste'. One can go from 'Kshatriya' to 'Dalit-Bahujan' if this helps one get reservations or scholarships. There are no social criteria to decide to which echelon a jati belongs in the 'caste system' (except, of course, average income and such like, but that just tells us the current socio-economic status of a particular jati, rather than its location in the 'caste hierarchy').
3. Therefore, it becomes very weird when people speak of 'Dalits' today as though this designates a social group or a unit of a social structure in India. There are hundreds of jatis that belong to the Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order.
These do not together make up a clearly delineated unit in the Indian society. They are a group only in so far as the Indian Constitution makes them one and in so far as certain political leaders and movements intend to create a sense of shared interests among all jatis in the constitutional schedule.
Yours,
Jakob
GB, thanks :)
I understood the point, and I personally think this point is a) untrue, and b) irrelevant to the content of the post at hand.Look, I didn't bring this up to get into a huge conversation about Affirmative Action in the U.S. I took objection to the rhetorical device of presenting the two as analogous. Such an analysis is completely specious. Whether or not they are "similar in principle and spirit" (also debatable), they are not nearly similar enough to warrant comparison or analysis by analogy. Not only is affirmative action (in the U.S.) designed differently in its policy, effect, and implementation, it is treated in a legally different manner than it is in India. Furthermore, it extends much higher than higher education. If you're going to look at the net effect on desis, then you're going to have to look at the effect for desi women, low-income desis, desis in advanced degree programs, desi businesses who gain contracts, etc. The same argument or analysis doesn't work for the Indian (desi) reservation system.
Well, I'm glad that you and your individual experiences do not guide public policy in either India or the U.S. I'm not arguing that affirmative action is perfect, but this kind of limited reasoning misses the point entirely -- not just the point of the program, but also the fact that many people who think they do not benefit from affirmative action actually do so, both individually and as members of society. Does that mean that these programs are the end all be all in alleviating the socioeconomic inequalities rooted in racism? No. But if you're not going to come up with an acceptable alternative that better promotes the public good (i.e. a greater equality of opportunity), then stop whining.But if you listen to the utterly duplicitous defenders of casteism, well-represented here, the well known and much maligned hindu caste system either: 1. doesn't exist at all (!) or; 2. it exists but is not at all hierarchical (despite its very definition as such!) or; 3. that it is the very epitome of freedom, dignity, opportunity and social security (despite being the exact opposite!).
Check out their atrocious and obscene lies here:
Caste defenders
As Jakob says, caste is not an empirical entity in the Indian context. Makes sense when you consider that caste is classification scheme used by the Portuguese to describe jati and varna - themselves very different from each other. In Tamizh Naadu I know of two v.large and powerful jatis that have an elaborate internal hierarchy most closely corresponding to varnashrama. This is apart from the other communities in UP/Bihar and the South that have an unclear although noticeable internal hierarchy. At this point there is no reason to conclude that there was a common thread linking the development of these hierarchies across regions. Ambedkar himself, although he bought into the Western idea of the Indian caste system, found it so bizarre that he wanted no one to profit from it in any way. Unfortunately Ambedkar was so much in the grip of the poor scholarship of our times that the theoretical failings of the caste system did not make him criticise western scholarship - although he did criticise many other notions of western scholarship that were then being thoughtlessly applied to the study of India - nationalism, race, language and cultural development etc., And needless to say he rejected doctrinaire belief systems completely and believed they went against Indian culture. In recent times the Mahars in Maharashtra have become the Uber scheduled castes much to the resentment of others in the group. The Meenas and the North Eastern communities dominate the ST category in the IAS selections. Again an example of the ahead of the curve dynamics I earlier explained. I hope all parties concerned stop trying to play politics and do a rethink on this disastrous policy of reservations.
BTW AA in the US is very sharply focused on the individual although it starts by looking at the group. This is why you find the top universities and corporate leaders selecting v.high numbers from the minorities. In the US AA is about leveling opportunities rather than outcomes. Even in India where they have tried to level outcomes, it is opportunities that have been getting leveled. In TN for instance, it is common in some households to hear, "You must study like the children of community". Read about this inspiring example The lorry driver's son who topped the civil services exam in Tamil Nadu
What nonsense. Admission to college in America is not based on test scores alone (true even before the era of Affirmative Action). Nor should it be. A well-rounded individual who scores above a certain level in the SATs is a better prospect than a nose-picking nerd who spent inordinate amounts of his/her time, energy and family money preparing for the SATs. There should be no affirmative action for rote learning or test-taking skills. Just look at the thoroughly incompetent and corrupt Indian Civil Service which rewards such skills.
Its worth pointing out that these same people who demand meritocracy based on tests are often the same hypocritical individuals who tenaciously defend casteism, which is the very opposite of a meritocracy! The sudra, untouchable and tribal majority of India should demand qualifying tests before caste is assigned. Seriously. Almost all these "brahmins" will then be found to be impostors :)
India under the domination of these so-called "upper castes" has been a total disaster. That alone is reason enough for Reservations.
On one hand I'm tempted to respond to GB's ...ah, comment...
And on the other hand I wonder if there's some truth to Camille's point that AA is off topic.
I initially responded only to Anna's pre-emptive defence on lack of knowledge on the Indian reservation system. But on this, I shall await SM Intern's go ahead. If I hear nothing for a day, silence is consent.
M. Nam
Prema,
Time to relieve the tedium. Time for the clown act. Time for PremaAdmission to colleges in the US is very substantially based on test scores. All other things being equal, a candidate with better test scores prevails.
You can scream till you are blue in the face, but that is how it is done. In India merit as I explained earlier (you can read and understand right?) is what counts. You sound silly, no stupid, when you go off at the deep end. Merit is what is used to select winners everywhere. Spelling bee, the Putnam, the Science Olympiads, Latin exams etc. The student who scores best comes out on top. Rote learning does not help you in competitive exams - not the SAT, GMAT, GRE, and definitely not the JEE, UPSC exams etc. In none of these exams can you simply memorise and write from memory. Test taking skills may be overrated. But science prize winners as a rule have been great test takers, even if the reverse is often not true. The top schools in the US go out of their way to recruit There are JEE toppers from India who have laterally transferred to top colleges in the US. And so with toppers from S.Korea/China/Japan etc., More bakwas! TN Seshan - a Palakkad Iyer - who revolutionised elections in India and put politicians in their place, is an IAS topper who supports reservations. The current Chief Election Commissioner T.Gopalaswamy is an Iyengar and an IAS topper, and Mayavati paid him a courtesy visit in his offices in delhi last week for conducting a well managed election in UP! The meritorious don't defend casteism, they are simply saying that standards shd not be lowered. That is not defending casteism, it is simply rejecting mediocrity. In India there are 100s of people from every community making it to the highest ranks thanks to doing well in entrance exams. This year's IAS topper is an OBC. So your criticism is directed at every candidate, general class, BC, SC, and ST who works hard and makes it into the Civil Services. You know what? Nobody gives a damn for your opinion. This sounds like gibberish (even by your standards). So let's try to unscramble it. qualifying tests to determine what? whether a person has brahminhood or some such thing? So you, after all this bluster, think that brahminhood is some lofty ideal, and that brahmans don't live up to it (they are 'impostors'?) Interesting! Many a brahman would endorse the idea.Prema, you shd simply pipe down and listen.
Camille (Post 54:
"Furthermore, it extends much higher than higher education. "
In Tamil Nadu, reservations are not only for college admissions, but also for jobs in government undertakings, and for promotions in jobs in government undertakings.
#54 Camille "Whether or not they are "similar in principle and spirit" (also debatable), they are not nearly similar enough to warrant comparison or analysis by analogy."
Camille, you have stated several times that the two are different or not similar enough. Can you be specific and give three or four reasons why they are essentially different? The few characteristics of the AA program cited in #54 seem to be merely operational and logistical in nature, and those obviously will not be identical to the AA program of another society. By the way, I am not posing a trick question. I am truly curious and interested in hearing your opinion.
As an aside, American AA may not be completely off topic. It is the only analogous experience the commenters here have to India's SC/ST programs.
Whatevs, yo? Its always amazing how Indians suddenly think they are black. Whats funny is while African Americans are busy taking advantage of society Indians are too busy fighting amongst eachother and working too hard to care.
Do you know why India is still in such a bad condition? Blame your parents ABCD's. I am one too so get off my back.
Its called brain drain. All your parents left instead of actually trying to create a strong independent India. They became posers in other countries. And now they all sit down at dinner and complain about it.
As for the Gujjar problem, it was always there but until we get a real leader, not a waif like Manmohan Singh, maybe someone like Prithviraj Chauhan, Shivaji or Ranjit Singh, these caste problems will still come up. People need a strong righteous leader to look up too.
If you can't make your point without resorting to personal attacks, don't make one at all.
Personal attacks? Where? Is this your way to silence actual intelligent dissent. Dissent of those who have actually been around India? Maybe the author should actually spend some time India and learn about India instead of shooting her mouth off? Thats my point.
Thanks for proving my point, exquisitely. There's a way to dissent intelligently which doesn't require being rude. How about discussing the issue, instead of the person who blogged it?
That's called survival. The beauracracy in India even today still makes it hard for nurse to earn good money or for a scientist to get a project off the ground.
PG, almost every other country in Asia has had the ssme problems, but even the ones without the advantages that India had - Excellent English speaking, strong literary history, European features in the Northwest Deccan and Northwest India; have done better. Look at Indonesia, Vietnam, Singapore or even China and Pakistan. Indians just don't have pride when they leave India, they are all about money.
interestingly, the concept of "well-roundedness" (ie, sports, music,etc) originated as a way/justification for keeping jews out, since it favored the cultural predispositions of wasps. in fact the ivy presidents were very blatant about these reasons at the time (read it in nymag a few years back, if you want to try to get the original source)
Jyotsna
Our friend Prema is a well-known quasi-troll, so I wouldn't get too excited with her gibberish. The clever thing about her(?) act is that she slips in a few sensible sentences and then begins the nonsense about fascist brahmins, racist indians, caste-obsessed nri's etc. etc.
Nick
Huh? Prema may be a sophisticated troll but methinks you are the real thing....
How the heck has Pakistan done better???
I was going to comment on Prema's crap comments, but seeing as they've been addressed...
Amitabh #49,
I'm not sure if imagining that desis in desh instantly identify people/peoples with some caste is a uniformly ABD thing or not, but it sure seems like that (Amitabh, I don't know if you're ABD. If not, then my inference about ABD's maybe incorrect, though there remains a predisposition on this forum)
Desis in desh as far as I have observed, identify/try to guess/assign castes when it's to do with worship (though not always), food, rituals, matrimony, education/reservation, and such things. A bunch of herders going vernacular in New India is rather uniformly taken as pain-in-the-ass-village-bumpkin-morons, and not with castes.
In fact, urban environments in India pretty much universally create non-caste identifiers for people, or at least identifiers with caste as a nominal component, until you hit upon any of the above situations. As a kid growing up, and as a youth in college etc., there were many times when I was aware that a person was baniya, or kayasth, brahmin etc. but didn't have precedent to guide me in differentiating my behavior for each. If anything, the precedent was to NOT differentiate. This also applied to people of other religions. Heck I didn't have 'life-learning' for interacting with non-reservation castes etc. differently either. Given the city, its economic and physical reality, ensured we all interacted with each other largely as peers, no matter what our parents brought to the cities from their smaller rural areas. The difference was mostly class, not caste.
All of this to say that caste is not a dominant identifying characteristic in civic situations in urban environments.
What's with many of you people on this thread? Trying to actually address Prema's comments with seriousness? Please, wake up and smell the troll.
What part of my statement: "Admission to college in America is not based on test scores alone" couldn't you understand, that made you so foolishly attempt to "correct" me with a similar statement?
What you have jumped in to defend is Moornam's asinine insinuation that minute differences in GPA and SAT scores trump any other considerations. In other words a strict meritocracy based only on test scores is the ideal. That is not how Princeton etc choose their freshmen class. If they did they would simply use a machine. Instead, all the top colleges have large admissions staff. Why? Because they decide not just on GPA or SAT scores, but also on recommendations, essays, extracurricular achievements, underprivileged minority status etc.
Thats a dumb statement. You obviously have no idea how the process works. The other things considered are usually intangibles that cannot be equated numerically to each other.
Very funny. India is the perfect example of how a strict meritocracy of dedicated rote learners and test-takers can have disastrous consequences. Just look at the Indian Civil Service. Is that something to be proud of? At least in America the SATs measure IQ, and the results are far, far better. Anyone who boasts of Indian meritocracy has to be a delusional idiot. What the hell has this system accomplished? Its record is shamefully pathetic.
An ignorant comparison. The Spelling Bees etc test specific skills and there is no nuance involved in judging the winners. A glowing recommendation by your spelling coach; or your musical or athletic talents etc will have exactly zero influence on whether you win or not. That is obviously not the case in college admissions, especially in the top colleges.
Thanks for the laugh. You now stand exposed as a silly, irrational, tambram bumpkin. What the hell does any of that prove? An "untouchable" lady pays a "courtesy visit" to some "brahmin" and you are nutty enough to triumphantly claim that it proves that I am wrong for saying that: Its worth pointing out that these same people who demand meritocracy based on tests are often the same hypocritical individuals who tenaciously defend casteism, which is the very opposite of a meritocracy! Get real pal, and grow up already.
What standards are you boasting about? The "high standards" that led to upper caste domination in India for so long has had worse than mediocre results. It has been a frickin disaster. Pragmatism teaches us that when something is an abject failure its time for a change.
Where did these brahmins pop out of? Didnt you claim that there is no such thing as the caste system? Get your story straight, you confused liar.
Prema,
Actually glowing recommendations and extracurricular activities of every sort cannot get you anywhere unless you have good test scores. You are simply screaming. Try not to look stupid, it's enough if you sound stupid. The reason Princeton or any school employs armies of admissions officers is because they get huge numbers of applications clustered around a score. You are simply blabbering. Cut offs are set by test scores, and GPA (where they know about the school district concerned).
No simply a dumb conclusion. The Civil Services exams go far beyond the SAT, and being meant for different positions are not comparable. check out earlier posts on the subject, and try to understand. You can read right? These are all tests. They only test for different things that vary in scope. The key here being that the better one scores the higher you stand! Simple. But for an incompetent like you that is hard to accept. You stand exposed as an unthinking, ignorant, blowhard with some severe reading comprehension problems. Clearly a merit-challenged sort! And worse still a caste obsessed nut! No the low standards that ensure a ruffian becomes a minister, and a minister's daughter who can't write her name gets into medical school. That's what would happen when a sub-par intellect is admitted. But a merit based system in India ensures it doesn't happen. Sorry Prema, you can't wreck the system, try as you might. You should make a habit of reading things over a few times before you post. Read what I have written a few times and let it sink into your head. Don't be disheartened because you lack the abilities to understand an argument. Just accept your current lack of competence and work harder. Merit rules. Get used to it.Floridian - I'm a little rushed now, but I will definitely follow up later to your question. Copacetic? :)
jyotsana, while you're generally right (that applicants tend to cluster around a test score/GPA bracket), Prema is also right in saying that a test score alone is not the prevailing factor in whether or not you get into college. This is especially true of colleges/universities who recognize that one's SAT score means nothing more than whether or not that person is good at (or took classes to become good at) taking the SAT. It is especially relevant for traditionally underrepresented students (both socioeconomically, regionally, racially/ethnically) who do not always have what we think of as "super high" SAT scores, but are incredibly qualified when assessed along other metrics.
Manju's also right in saying the "holistic" approach to admissions was originally intended to keep out Jewish applicants, who apparently were "too qualified." All that said, I think we need to reassess when we think that the SAT -- or any admissions-oriented standardized test racket, for that matter -- is an objective measure of "merit." The admissions system is so fucked up, even with all their attempts to make it "more open" or "more accessible." It absolutely is biased towards elites, i.e. people whose parents have a college education, people in the upper middle/upper tax brackets, etc. Given that the U.S. is all about buying into the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" myth, it is amazing that inherently unmeritocratic admissions are cloaked in the language of "equal judgment before your SAT score."
Sorry to totally divert the thread. I got caught up in the politics of U.S. college admissions and forgot that I was the one arguing to keep this on topic re: Gujjars. I'm sure we can all take this offline/onto email if it is too off topic.
>>You "reproduce" an alleged conversation you eavesdropped upon -- ...-- and we're expected to accept this hearsay evidence as substantiating something socially significant!?!
Fair enough. There is no way for me to prove that the conversation took place - such is the nature of anecdotal evidence. But there's one place where you can find proof of my observation that 2-gen desis by and large have been sold on AA. The place is....right here! Apart from Manju, I've yet to come across a single 2-gen poster who debates against AA. Now this too is anecdotal evidence of another scale, but I'm assuming it has a lot more weight in this debate.
>>you go on to present D1 -- who, to some of us who work in academia and have to make tough calls on issues of merit vs background, would appear like a close-minded, socially-insensitive prick -- as the fount of all wisdom. This is utterly lacking in nuance.
Actually, the conversation continued for a long time after I got another helping of samosas, and centered around this very issue. Don't worry - I won't retype the whole thing! Here's the jist of my argument.
If someone says that AA is not as bad as reservation in India - my answer is Yes - in implementation and intent, but No, in spirit. AA is not state-mandated quotas unlike in India, and is very small in quantity - less than 5-10%, unlike 70-80% in India. So the effects are not largely noticable, much like the effects of Social Security or Medicare in the 1950's. But as everything else, any entitlement starts growing exponentially after a while, and once granted can never be taken away.
You say that those who work in academia are not close-minded, socially insensitive pricks. I agree. And that is the double-edged sword that I'm afraid of: AA is a system that's largely dependant on the integrity and good intentions of a select few people.
The school administrative folks in America are presently composed mostly of liberal whites and Jews, both of these groups being well disposed to Desis and Asians. Hence, these incidents like the one in Princeton are just small pin-pricks that don't matter in the long run since smart Desis and Asians will kick ass no matter where they go. Unless...
Unless of course, in time, the school admin is replaced by a group of people that are largely hostile to Desis and Asians. Then, my friend GB/Camille, the shit will hit the fan verrry quickly. It is a well known fact that most African Americans and Hispanics are, quite sadly, resentful of Asians and Desis( and Jews) - in matters of immigration, jobs, wealth, college admissions and the like. And these two groups are also the fastest growing segment of the American population (may together be 30-40%). Do want to bet that for your children's generation (20-25 years from now), a large percentage of college admins will be individuals from these two hostile groups? What do you think will happen then? The subjective criteria stipulated in the present by a select few gatekeepers can be easily manipulated to keep Desis and Asians out. For a very long time. Like two or three generations.
That's why the criteria for admissions should be as objective as possible. GPA, SAT scores and essays are a pretty good indicator of a person's abilities to excel in college. The person's subjective emotional intelligence (friendliness, non-confrontational, co-operativeness, risk taking ability etc) are the indicators of excelling at work. The flaw is that colleges are using the subjective pretext of emotional intelligence to underplay the objective merit to deny admission to individuals from successful groups. This is Social Engineering. This is playing God with people's lives.
This will end in pain and tears for everyone. AA was originally intended to bring Blacks into the mainstream - good intentions. But now it's being used to keep an Asian out solely because of his race. It's one person now, but within a couple of decades the trickle could turn into a torrent. Distributive Justice will end up as selective injustice.
And it's happening slowly. There are at least five schools districts in New Jersey alone where high schools have started putting down Desis and Asians on one pretext or another. Alarmed by the near dominance of these two groups in academics, they are putting up walls (or shall I say glass ceilings) based on subjective criteria invented on a daily basis. They are obviously getting severe heat from parents of , ah, non-Desi/non-Asian kids, to "level the playing field". Asians and Desis are slowly and steadily selling their houses and moving into other school districts.
>>MoorNam sounds more and more like one of those puffed-up arseholes ...your pig-headed lack of balance
M. Nam
Firstly, MoorNam, there is absolutely zero empirical evidence for all of the claims you've made. Just a fear that if Latin@s and African Americans are in power that they will continue to propagate anti-desi/Asian racism. Maybe we see in others characteristics that reflect how we behave?
Secondly, there is little to no empirical evidence that your SAT score is a good predictor of academic performance in college beyond the first semester. You can continue to repeat what you think, but it doesn't make it objectively true. The funny thing about "objective" measures is that they are not really objective at all, but they give us metrics that we can say are objective so that we can ignore all the inherent inequalities in the process itself.
Whining or Whinging ( as the aussies call it) is the first step in changing public policy. When enough people whinge enough time to the right persons, policy begins to change. Not that a change in public policy in either USA or India will make a difference to me or my offspring. So far, AA in Australia is almost non-existent. I hope it stays that way for the next few decades.
The reservation quota system in India is a fairer way than the ambiguous diversity criteria. Simply, it takes away subjective criteria. After all, everyone in the sub group competes on an equal footing. And it is an objective selection within that subgroup. So if you are a ST, you are competing with other ST candidates and you need to only outscore the other ST candidates. If you are an ST, it is relatively easy to gain admission / find a government job. Several government jobs go unfilled each year due to lack of ST candidates. This happens despite entry cutoffs being lowered to the bare minimum possible.
A key question from many in India has been - Should the son of a top government bureaucrat be entitled to reservation. How many generations of reservations are necessary? A similar question in USA would be "Should the children of Obama be entitled to AA". I dont think anyone would claim that they are disadvantaged.
The irony that many FOBs are anti- reservation but their children are pro-AA.
Hey, I am all for AA in every sphere. Let me take the same argument that AA advocates use for Law / Medicine and apply it to Sport.
Sport needs to be representative of the overall community. Why is basketball dominated by one community. A small framed ABD kid who has grown up in a non-sport loving family and plays high school basketball deserves to be selected for a top NCAA basketball college with a full scholarship on the basis of his background. Sport is to be inclusive rather than exclusive the way it is currently now. We should not discriminate on physical ability or background. Dont we need AA in Sport as well?
How is that strong AA advocates consciously ignore such blatant violations of AA in the public space.
Btw, the Indian cricket team has AA. It is based on a regional quota selection. It is certainly a more national game with the addition of players from outside the traditional strongholds. Whether it is a stronger team is a different matter.
hmmmm n i was wondering why a billion cricket crazy fan nation can't produce and maintain world class cricket players
To MoorNam at @76, who said this
.'Attaboy MoorNam! So you can formulate arguments after all. If so, why don't you do so in the first place, rather than posting, as is your style, either: i) Cryptic three-line comments which sound more like soundbytes; or ii) Vague allegorical pieces such as #26. They make you appear (they make you sound like SpoorLam ;-) ) as though you're not sufficiently invested in your viewpoint to express it categorically. (Why should it require someone to knee you in the groin like this, metaphorically speaking, before you favour us with a deliberative argument ?)
Moving on to the crux of the matter: I won't attempt to echo Camille's rejoinder to your claim of the SAT's objectivity. I will, however, add a sidenote to this:
which is somewhat nonsensical. Can you honestly say to me that you've worked with college-admissions admins ? If not, then please lay off. I was once a part of a departmental committee that worked with college admins, and was surprised at all the parameters -- many of them having nothing to do with "emotional intelligence" -- that went into admission decisions.