same situation in Australia.
Hardly any non-white characters on TV including newscasters. Except SBS which is a publicly funded multicultural station.

It tells me that the dominant culture in Australia is the Anglo Saxon one.

I guess it is the same in USA. Although I did love the Hispanic channels for their beautiful men & women.

How many times have you heard a doctor say that nobody can understand what they go through unless they’re a doctor themselves? It’s as if they think that being a doctor is distinct from other professions, on a plane of its own, completely inaccessible to people who do other things for a living. They also love to boast about the hours they work, even though (post-residency) my doctor friends work both shorter and more predictable hours than friends who are lawyers, iBankers or programmers.

I don’t understand why they feel this way though - I’ve never heard anything similar from engineers. Is it the combination of the long training and the high salaries? What’s at the root of this medical exceptionalism?

That is true, and I believe the reason for this is precisely both. 1) Longer training compared to the usual jobs AND 2) the good salaries.

A profession that requires longer training generally also correlates to more intelligence on average. And secondly doctors can also consider themselves significantly better off than the average profession in terms of money. Its this nice combination that gives the glamor to this job. There are other professions too that can have both these characteristics but this does not happen as uniformly as it happens for doctors across all the members of other typical professions. For instance, academia(professors) does have a higher intelligence/smartness appeal than doctors but they don't usually have the same wealth appeal (on an average, obviously). Similarly you have other professions with a higher wealth appeal than doctors but not as much smartness appeal. I think the doctor profession does a good balancing job between both the appeals and hence the the 'clannishness' you attribute to the people doing this job.

In other words as an example, just the fact that Susan is a doctor implies Susan must be reasonably rich(at least upper middle class) AND also that Susan must be a fairly smart woman. I can't think of another profession that very likely ensures both. You can be sure that if Tom is a professor of XYZ then TOM must be real smart but you couldnt keep a bet that TOM is rich without a little more info on Tom. Similarly you can find other rich people, but you couldn't bet that they are also smart without some more info at least...

oh, and as for the statement of how you have to be a doctor to understand their lives, I agree that does reek of condescencion. I dont think its any more true than saying you have to be a clerk to understand what a clerk goes through.

Fair critique good sir but what's the percentage of South Asian Americans who become actors? Lord knows that we have considerable walls to climb before an audition (ahem, parents!). Does the Screen Actors Guild collect and make public the ethnicity of its members?

What's at the root of this medical exceptionalism?

Mistakes hurt you, me and Dupree Deepak. Under every white lab coat you'll find unisex red knickers worn over blue tights and a cape.

I also wondered about the "clannish" aspect of the Indian physicians. They form their own professional organizations and tend to hang out exclusively with their own kind. They have every right to do this, too.

But Indian engineers and other professionals don't seem to have the same unity. Or I might be unaware of any groups dedicated only for engineers, nurses or business people, etc. I know NetIP includes all Indian professionals. But if I am wrong, enlighten me.

One of my cousins is an oncology nurse who is married to a hardware engineer. She mentioned her engineer husband works many more hours than the physicians she works with. Is this true elsewhere? Or is it an isolated case?

I guess initially in the physicians' training, their work hours are significantly longer. ER physicians and nurses work inhumanely long hours and should be compensated the most if there was any justice. I also think the medical residents/fellows/etc are also treated to inhumane treatment with non stop work for days at a time with no breaks, no salary, etc. No wonder most young physicians I have seen are cranky and bitter about life and humanity - they are constantly dead tired! Something is wrong with the whole system and Medical malpractice/Insurance companies are adding fuel to the fire.

(Doctors Without Borders, St. Judes Hospital for kids and other volunteer groups like them are awesome. I always support them yearly and their work gives me hope for humanity!)

My parents were super-liberal and allowed me the freedom to make choices. For instance, I had the freedom to be any kind of Engineer or Doctor I chose to be.

My sister was involved in a study on Asian Americans and screen time during primetime television shows. See below:

http://www.dailybruin.com/news/2005/may/12/off-the-airwaves/

According to the report, except for NBC, all of the networks’ (ABC, UPN, WB, Fox and CBS) depictions of regular APIA actors were less than half of the U.S. percentage of the APIA population.

“Television networks will claim that there is less of a pool of APIA actors, or that they have less talent and experience,” said Chin. “But it’s a catch-22, because if they aren’t given a chance, then they won’t gain any experience.”

The study also found that of the six identifiable multiracial APIA actors found in prime-time television, only one is identified as an APIA. Out of the other five, three portray white characters, and two are ethnically ambiguous. One of these actors, Mark-Paul Gosselaar (the former bleach-blond “Zach” from “Saved by the Bell”), who is Dutch and Indonesian in real life, stars on “NYPD Blue” as John Clark Jr., a character of European decent.

We were never forced into medicine …in the Indian community in Chicago, everyone was a professional. Everyone was a doctor or an engineer…

What a shameless, brazen liar!

What Indian-American characters in Grey's Anatomy? How gross!

There could be another reason why these shows are popular among IA teens, even those on the path to med school. There are elements of the lifestyle that they are in agreement with - independent, working on large public health projects etc., And yeah, breaking ou of the family business.

@ #7:

I knew there'd be some inspection into screen time and you could see the networks rebuttal from a mile away. But how many are in the talent pool to begin with? And what projects are they getting auditions for and what projects are shutting them out?

What Indian-American characters in Grey's Anatomy? How gross!

There is a brown connection in Grey's Anatomy- the show was inspired by and loosely based on Atul Gawande's Complications.

my dream? to represent the indians on 'scrubs'... the most real medico show out there.

It's not quite "finally" for ER -- Parminder Nagra's been on the show since 2003. She started the fall after Bend it Like Beckham premiered.

Sad that I know this.

Does anyone personally know desis who were "pressured" to become doctors but ended up doing something else AFTER becoming full fledged doctors? I've met 4 now, all my generation who absolutely abhor the profession and wouldn't want anything to do with it and have gone onto to other equally lucrative and successful professions but simply didn't want to be doctors. This is something I'd unheard of growing up but seems like it's become quite common now.

My elder brother is a Radiologist. He tells me he does surgical procedures too. He also went to IMSA -- the best high school in Illinois..

There should be more desi doctors on medical shows but I see a lot of desi doctors on the news and on talk shows.

And yeah of all the medical shows I have seen I have learned the most about what being a doctor is like from Scrubs.

1 out of 20? That doesn't correlate with the number of times I've heard: "Oh, you're Indian? My doctor's Indian!" Often followed by: "Do you know him?"

Oh but we've made progress on tv! Who saw the Indian guy featured on all those MTV Award commercials last night? :)

Does anyone personally know desis who were "pressured" to become doctors but ended up doing something else AFTER becoming full fledged doctors? I've met 4 now, all my generation who absolutely abhor the profession and wouldn't want anything to do with it and have gone onto to other equally lucrative and successful professions but simply didn't want to be doctors. This is something I'd unheard of growing up but seems like it's become quite common now.

i wasn't pressured into becoming a doctor, but it's not the end all for me.. i love what i do, but it's also a springboard into other fields... which is fantastic.. it opens tons of avenues, whether it be in the business, financial, pharmaceutical, media fields of interest.. i think nowadays, people realize that you don't have to let the degree define your career, but can use it to your benefit for anything you'd like to pursue..

i know of a few desis who dropped out of medical school and became something else, and are happy.. and i know others who were pressured into becoming a doc, and are misterable.. it's like that with everything (law, engineering, etc).. not just medicine per se.

i think nowadays, people realize that you don't have to let the degree define your career, but can use it to your benefit for anything you'd like to pursue..

This is a good outlook, and in fact many times, doing what you love as a job can sometimes kill the very attraction you had for it in the first place.

Oh but we've made progress on tv! Who saw the Indian guy featured on all those MTV Award commercials last night? :)

I don't have a TV, but I'd guess that was probably Aziz Ansari, from the sketch comedy show Human Giant. Nirali Magazine profiled him here.

1 out of 20? That doesn't correlate with the number of times I've heard: "Oh, you're Indian? My doctor's Indian!" Often followed by: "Do you know him?"

funny as shit. that is so true.

ennis, that was fun as shit to read. you are the man when it comes doing research and showing statistics.

Perhaps this explains why doctors feel the way they feel: Doctor vs. Mechanic

1 out of 20? That doesn't correlate with the number of times I've heard: "Oh, you're Indian? My doctor's Indian!" Often followed by: "Do you know him?"

LMAO. And so true...

NetIP is the pits, atleast the one event I went to was a bunch of desi stags (trying)chasing skirts to Bhangra, well nothing wrong with it but not exactly entrepreneurial

This is part of a larger problem, namely that the America you see on the small screen is significantly whiter than reality.

Really? I don't think this is true with the medical shows on tv --- there's a ton of black doctors. I'm thinking the black doctors are representing all the minorities out there to corporate America.

I grew up in a family of all doctors...and I mean everyone...my mom, dad, sister, uncles...well you get the point.
I *gasp* became an attorney, and it really is frustrating how every social conversation somehow turns to medicine.
Even more frustrating is how some of my family members see medicine as the be-all, end-all field and some even see my work as dispensible - though I have even worked for the public defender. Or maybe they just don't "get" what I do.
Anyways, I digress. It's good to see more desis branch out into "untraditional" fields, even if it be as "untraditional" as the law!
Kudos to all you rebels out there ;)

The people who come up with these shows exist in a demographic that is well over 80% white, ie older Americans. I'm sure you'd find way more black people on TV than Hispanics, and yet Hispanics are now a bigger segment of the population. These things take a while to be reflected in the wider culture - also, most people who watch these shows are white, and besides, a large amount of the patients are black.

"If the absence of minority characters represents the fantasy world of white viewers, then what does that tell us about them?"

God Ennis you can be a resentful whiner at times, it tells us absolutely nothing about them.

and yet Hispanics are now a bigger segment of the population.

That's interesting b/c mostly on tv I see black and white characters. It probably also depends on which group has a more influential lobby on media representation

Yes, then there is the gigantic hispanic population.. That is the new trend in marketing now, to create ads that target hispanics.. Also I notice that quite a few of the news people in chicago are hispanic..

"If the absence of minority characters represents the fantasy world of white viewers, then what does that tell us about them?"

God Ennis you can be a resentful whiner at times, it tells us absolutely nothing about them.

Actually it does, it ratifies the 'potency of color' argument, which is why in the white world, a jury with 11 blacks and 1 whites is a 'black jury', and a jury with 11 whites and 1 black is 'diverse'

NetIP is the pits, atleast the one event I went to was a bunch of desi stags (trying)chasing skirts to Bhangra, well nothing wrong with it but not exactly entrepreneurial

Which city?

"If the absence of minority characters represents the fantasy world of white viewers, then what does that tell us about them?"

God Ennis you can be a resentful whiner at times, it tells us absolutely nothing about them.

Let me break this down for you sloooooowly. Imagine this dialogue:

Q: Why is TV so white?
A: There are non-white actors on it (names a few)
Q: Think about a show like Friends which was set in NYC. NYC has only 44% white people. I'm pretty sure that show was at least 95% white.
A: That show wasn't real. Real 20 somethings don't own apartments that size in New York City, they don't subsist on meager salaries, and they don't run around sleeping with their friends. Get it - it's fantasy.
Q: So it's your average white person's fantasy to live in New York City, be able to afford a huge apartment with no salary, sleep with all their friends ...
A: Exactly!
Q: ... and be surrounded by only white people?
A: You are a resentful whiner!

Great post! I have been saying the same thing for awhile now. I have seen a slow shift on television. I haven't seen ER in ages! It has been on the air forever, but I don't know why.

Thanks for this, Ennis! I'm reading through the media advertising link you posted - crazy! (and yet not surprising)

That's interesting b/c mostly on tv I see black and white characters. It probably also depends on which group has a more influential lobby on media representation

NVM, I'm with the previous commentator. Is there a dearth of desi actors? Yes and no. There are more out there than folks think, but they don't get cast, and part of it is because people cast with specific races/ethnicities in mind. If there are no parts for which you are recruited, then it's kind of hard to get your foot in the door.

Also, Scrubs had a desi guy! (p.s. best show eeeeever) He wasn't a huge character (although he was kind of physically huge), but he was in the same class of residents as JD, Turk and Elliott :) Funny that Grey's, which is relatively concerned with having a diversity of ethnicities portrayed, does not have a desi character.

Ennis,

I'm with you on that. Although, (and I can't be completely sure about it, because I haven't seen the show enough times) but the show friends focused more on these people, rather than where they lived. Sure, it was set in NYC, but was NYC a really big 'character' in the show? (As it was in say, Seinfeld, which I think is more likely target for NYC From the look of the show, it could have been western montana (and maybe that's the point you're making?) But, the majority of white people don't have non-white friends, and in that sense, the show Friends is quite realistic

TV is white because the people who make tv are white...Then again I would rather see a white actor than shyamalan cast himself in another role uggg!

Although, (and I can't be completely sure about it, because I haven't seen the show enough times) but the show friends focused more on these people, rather than where they lived. Sure, it was set in NYC, but was NYC a really big 'character' in the show? (As it was in say, Seinfeld, which I think is more likely target for NYC From the look of the show, it could have been western montana (and maybe that's the point you're making?) But, the majority of white people don't have non-white friends, and in that sense, the show Friends is quite realistic

I'm not really that familiar with the show, but I do recall seeing their workplaces and a lot of scenes in the whitest coffee shop in Manhattan.

As for white people and non-white friends, New York is less socially segregated than the rest of America, another reason why the show felt more like Montana to me.

I don't know, HMF. Friends would've been more realistic, if they lived in say, Iowa, rather than NYC. In ten years, these six white characters only ran into basically an average of a minority character per season, per 1 to 2 episodes.

Ah, my fav topic!

My wife is a doc and she suffers from a mild form of physician-related snobbishness too. While the AMA has a lot to do with how many doctors are certified each year, the exams, material and residency requirements are also quite high. Small club = more clannishness. That said, such clannishness is also a result of early hazing during residency programs. I have talked to several doctor friends and they all have tales of being treated like sh!t by supervising docs during the early years of residency - a form of initiation ritual, if you will.

Econ theory time. The medical profession in the US has done a stellar job of restricting the number of graduating doctors, thereby keeping prices high and ensuring the wealth others have discussed on this thread. Any opinions?

I don’t understand why they feel this way though - I’ve never heard anything similar from engineers. Is it the combination of the long training and the high salaries? What’s at the root of this medical exceptionalism?

it's pure and simple elitism, is what it is. and, imho, there are two reasons for it:

first, doctors are more qualified, so there is a certain rationale to it. but there are several other professions which require as much qualification, so what makes doctors different? they also deal with people's lives, so there's a "god-complex" aspect to what they do.

secondly, desis have this subconscious reverence for doctors which is drummed into their heads from a very young age. doctors are at the receiving end of it, and especially desi doctors. in india, there's this whole superstition thing, and the doctor who saves your life is analogous to god, in some sense.

so basically, it's a feedback loop - i am god because i saved your life, thinks the doctor. you are god because you saved my life, says the patient. hence, the doctor ends up thinking they are "special". and since doctors mostly hang out with other doctors, they come to believe that even more.

well, that's my theory, anyhow...

As for #13:

Does anyone personally know desis who were "pressured" to become doctors but ended up doing something else AFTER becoming full fledged doctors? I've met 4 now, all my generation who absolutely abhor the profession and wouldn't want anything to do with it and have gone onto to other equally lucrative and successful professions but simply didn't want to be doctors. This is something I'd unheard of growing up but seems like it's become quite common now.

i am one of those somewhat-pressured ones. my entire family is a doctor family (i feel your pain, BarristerBetty) parents, grandparents, grandparent's siblings, first cousins, second cousins, etc. etc. but after i slaved and got a much-coveted medical school seat in india after my 12th (as it works in india), i didn't bother to go through the motions after some serious conversations with the fairly liberal parents.

i ran to the us for my undergrad, and have recently got a doctorate in quantitative finance. and, i should add, the salaries are higher than the average doctor's, and you work a fairly regular workday (not i-banking hours).

i constantly keep my eye out for doctors-turned-something else and have met several of them including a family friend who dropped a rhodes scholarship in sports medicine at oxford to become a consultant at mckinsey. let me tell you, they are much more interesting to talk to, considering they are aware of the world outside medicine.

We were never forced into medicine …in the Indian community in Chicago, everyone was a professional. Everyone was a doctor or an engineer…

What a shameless, brazen liar!

prema, thanks for pointing this out. it's a ridiculous statement to make, and one that is commonly made. it upsets me when people make their small indian circle to represent the entire indian american population in the area.

Ennis,
I wish you had explored the reasons for CNN hiring Sanjay Gupta as the face of medicine. I beleieve it constitutes more valuable screen time than ER. A lot of baby boomer America (CNN's audience) is very comfortable with a desi doctor. ABout the rest, time will tell - not TV.

Just as an aside, can people stop bringing up places like Iowa as the example of a place that is lily white and/or socially segregated? Granted, Des Moines is not New York City, but it (and other Midwestern cities/states) are nowhere near as bad as folks on SM seem to think. Iowa is not Idaho, after all...

With respect to Friends, I noticed a smattering of non-white characters towards the end of the show's run, which makes me wonder if these complaints were made to the producers as well.

If the absence of minority characters represents the fantasy world of white viewers, then what does that tell us about them?

Good question. Takes courage to ask it. Dont agree with the poster who thinks its whining....

Its a good question, cut anyways.

I dont see any clear answers though. However, for the reality to change to reflect American demographic reality, does this question need to be asked by people people of all hues?

If I were white and I saw myself as a fairminded person, which many of them are, I would defnitely ask this question. For a non-white person to ask this question aggressively opens him/her to the risk of being a "whiner."

A white friend of mine remarked about the very white audience and performing crew at the ballet and the opera and said it makes him feel strange. He said he is not sure why this is so, even though so many Asians study music and dance, and other arts, and are very accomplished in it.

People are asking this question..and rightfully so...

HAte to tandem post ...but

I do not think we need to worry about minorities not being represented...check out the most popular radio stations in L. A. - all Spanish. I think we are hung up on watching shows in English. There's a ton of stuff out there in Spanish. And , i will say it again, will someone please spruce up Namaste India?

Much of the reason, I believe, that desi kids go into medicine is because of the stability factor, which has now turned into a prestige factor. Back in the desh, being a doctor or engineer meant not having to worry about where your next meal came from.

Also, speaking of the AMA SkepMod, I think it's bullshit how the AMA limits the # of MDs in order to increase their salaries etc. The United States NEEDS more doctors, as today, healthcare is a privilege, not a right. With a society as advanced as ours, we all should have access to healthcare.

I'm not really that familiar with the show, but I do recall seeing their workplaces and a lot of scenes in the whitest coffee shop in Manhattan.

As for white people and non-white friends, New York is less socially segregated than the rest of America, another reason why the show felt more like Montana to me.

Yes, the world of Seinfeld was pretty white bread but they still did a better job with diversity than Friends. Great minority characters that spring to mind are: Rebecca DeMornay, the Exterminator, the gay, hispanic tough guys that torture Kramer about the AIDS ribbon, Poppy, and since this is SM - BABU (played by a possibly Jewish actor but that's a story for another day...)

secondly, desis have this subconscious reverence for doctors which is drummed into their heads from a very young age. doctors are at the receiving end of it, and especially desi doctors. in india, there's this whole superstition thing, and the doctor who saves your life is analogous to god, in some sense.

Yes but I think in the US too doctors are like gods. My father is a doctor and when we immigrated to the US, most of our friends were doctors. I was continuously surrounded by doctor aunty and uncles and it wasn't something I gave much thought to in elementary school until...when my young friends or teachers asked me what my parents did, and I said my father is a doctor, these kids were all wide-eyed and expressed that I must be so rich. It's a very, very difficult school to get into to in the US, so to a certain extent I can understand why people are so in awe of them, especially also its a profession that deals with life and death.

We were never forced into medicine …in the Indian community in Chicago, everyone was a professional. Everyone was a doctor or an engineer…
What a shameless, brazen liar!

prema, thanks for pointing this out. it's a ridiculous statement to make, and one that is commonly made. it upsets me when people make their small indian circle to represent the entire indian american population in the area.

I don't think she was lying for god's sake - I think this is just what she experienced and probably not being a sociologist didn't qualify her statement.

For those complaining about the unrealistic whiteness of Friends, I sort of agree, BUT - my ex had a rent-controlled inherited place in the West Village too, when he was right out of college - there ARE such cases; and if you go around the hip parts of Manhattan, the crowd IS more white than the City generally speaking. It's still not as vanilla as the show depicted it, but hey. Also, I don't understand why Americans expect television to serve as a sort of sociologically-correct census-based reality. Most people's lives, in the US, consist of driving around a lot, working, and watching television, and not a whole lot of witty dialogue in between - you want a watch a show like that?

I get the impression sometimes that folks like to complain when TV shows don't reflect THEIR particular experience, or show people living in prettier places or wearing nicer clothes or having more spare time than their characters realistically should. Now that, to me, is an unrealistic expectation. TV is about verisimilitude, not veracity, and one has to be able to relate with part of it to get into the story, but if you want to just watch your life, you'd turn off the TV.

I'm sure if you crunched the numbers you'd find that an insanely disproportionate number of characters in TV shows are Jewish, but you can't say that now can you?. What, a meagre 2% of the US population, but it's difficult to think of a show that doesn't have a prominent Jewish character. Is that fair? Is Ennis going to whine about that statistical anomaly?

I graduated from high school in 1992 and my folks pressured me into the pre-med thing. My dad is a doc and all of my parents friends in our town in the middle of f'ing nowhere in Ohio were Indians. So they did not know anyone in the US who wasn't a doc or an engineer. My parents always stressed the "medicine is the only secure job where you can earn a lot of money and other jobs like law are controlled by racist white folk" angle. Back then they (and I) wasn't even aware of fields like investment banking. I ended up quitting pre-med because I hated it so much and eventually went to law school . Now at least kids growing up see Indians in diverse other fields; a whole new world of opportunity has unfolded. They don't have to just go into medicine and engineering, now they can also look into investment banking and corporate law...

Yes but I think in the US too doctors are like gods. My father is a doctor and when we immigrated to the US, most of our friends were doctors. I was continuously surrounded by doctor aunty and uncles and it wasn't something I gave much thought to in elementary school until...when my young friends or teachers asked me what my parents did, and I said my father is a doctor, these kids were all wide-eyed and expressed that I must be so rich. It's a very, very difficult school to get into to in the US, so to a certain extent I can understand why people are so in awe of them, especially also its a profession that deals with life and death.

ps - i agree with you, to some extent. but in the us (capitalist country), i think the admiration comes more from a "you're so rich, therefore, you're cool" thing. in india (socialist, until recently), i feel it's more cultural and has less to do with the financial aspect of things. if i am not mistaken, most doctors in india were not very well-off at all, prior to the "neo-liberal" reforms in the early nineties.

nonetheless, i also agree that there is a justification to the admiration. but not to the extent that i have seen it taken by some of my doctor friends and relatives (and i have many - by virtue of my family).

People want to see more of those who look like themselves on tv, but only in positive roles. Law and Order routinely takes real cases and changes the race of the defendents to white, regardless of actual race. However, I haven't heard hue and cry about that. I guess if whites wanted to make a fuss, they could complain about being greatly over-represented on tv as rapists, murderers, etc. in places like New York. People don't want tv to "reflect reality." Reality is scary and uncompromising. They want it to reflect their fantasies about themselves, and those who make the most noise eventually get what they want as long as it makes a profit. TV ignores statistics--it looks at what will sell and make the loudest people least angry. Maybe Asians are too quiet and polite?
Whites are watching less television. Blacks are watching more. Commercials appear to be 50% black, and usually feature black/white mixes more often than they occur in any reality I seen.
I have not read studies about East Indian viewing practices, but from my observation they seem to follow socio-economic class. That is, higher education, less tv viewing.
Since I rarely watch regular shows--i stick to a few cable channels and PBS--I am not able to give personal impressions. However, I have read the studies. Blacks are over-represented when it comes to certain professional characters. East Asians--as under-represented as South Asians. The average age of females on the big screen is about 25, and on the little one, maybe 30. Beautiful female lawyers are absurdly over-represented from my experience. Plain ones, of any race, under-represented. Males average considerably older than reality as romantic leads. Anyone looking in from another planet would make interesting assumptions about our demographics. It seems to be a rule that any given show will feature black and/or female judges (a favorite irony I guess), doctors and authority figures, way out of proportion to reality even in a place like D.C. Meanwhile, desis are vastly under-represented in medical shows. I don't know of any shows featuring engineers.
But when you are talking about "accurate" portrayal on the little screen, you really do have to look at all the aspects--there's more than a little hypocracy in all this. Desis want more desi doctors on tv, but not more motel owners, convenience store clerks or, perhaps, geologists and teachers. If we keep beating the drum, we'll see more brown faces on tv. But be prepared for the "reality" drum. My granma always said, be careful of what you ask for, because you might just get it.

Yes luna, most crimes in NY are committed by blacks and hispanics, and yet on Law & Order most criminals seem to bee rich Manhattanites.

How many times have you heard a doctor say that nobody can understand what they go through unless they’re a doctor themselves? It’s as if they think that being a doctor is distinct from other professions, on a plane of its own, completely inaccessible to people who do other things for a living. They also love to boast about the hours they work, even though (post-residency) my doctor friends work both shorter and more predictable hours than friends who are lawyers, iBankers or programmers.

Umm...maybe because it is distinct from other professions in that most doctors deal with life and death issues on a daily basis, and nearly every decision they make can impact whether someone lives or dies? So yes, from that perspective no one really gets what we go through. That doesn't make us "special", but it does have a huge impact on our lives. I generally don't say this to other people, so I'm sorry your friends boast about it; perhaps you should find new friends. But they are right. You have to either be a doctor, work closely with one, or be married to one to really get what it's all about. There are other professions that this is probably true of--the military or firefighters for example. I love how any post about medicine turns into an excuse to bash desi doctors and suggest that we all did it for the money/stability and that we are boring and ill-informed about the world in general.

Oh come on, we had a brown Oompa Loompa, that's gotta count for something!

*cringe*

Great post Ennis, a few comments:

Have any of you seen Grey's Anatomy? 3 of the head doctors on that show are Black, so that stat flies a bit in the face of the statistic you raised.

With regards to doctors, I think it's natural for people to congregate together who are in the same fields. When I meet someone in public health like myself, I naturally find myself gravitating towards them, asking them what they do, where they went to school, so on and so forth. Admittedly I don't exclusively hang out with people who are just in public health, but there is going to be a bond there because we both chose to go into the same field.

Of course if the makers of Law and Order were to actually reflect the criminal population of NY in a realistic manner, then they'd be called racists, Ennis-the-resentful would probably be first in line. So it's a straight question Ennis - do you think Law and Order should reflect demographic fact as well?

Ennis: "how little the multicultural nature of the medical profession is reflected on TV."

TV is lagging behind reality. What about the South Indian and Filipino nurses? Between the nurses and doctors, an average US hospital has a healthy dollop of brown.

Ennis: "It's as if they think that being a doctor is distinct from other professions, on a plane of its own, completely inaccessible to people who do other things for a living. They also love to boast about the hours they work, "

Given my advanced age (54), my physician friends are usually not the bragging upstarts of the medical profession but the seasoned pros who, after decades of losing patients, have accepted the reality that they have little power over human life. They are now resigned to the fact that they are not omnipotent. On the financial front, they are painfully aware that they are still hourly workers, with incomes directly tied to labor input, as compared to successful entrepreneurs or business executives whose earnings depend on creating outcomes through aggregating other people and resources. This harsh reality of medicine may be a non-issue among the younger set, but a 60-year old surgeon standing on his or her feet for six hours straight is understandly modest about the working conditions of medicine. My physician friends do not boast about the physicality of their job, the hours they work and their ridiculously long weeks and short vacations.

However, there is one quality that physicians seem to enjoy even in their later years and that is a love for their profession. I don't know any 50-plus burnt-out doctors. I know many 50-plus burnt-out business executives and professors.

a few points.

http://www.im.org/AAIM/PublicPolicy/Docs/AAMCMIM05.pdf

20% of med students are Asian American. 36% of applicants who are Asian are Indian or Pakistani. Assuming similar acceptance rates that means 7% of medical students in the United States are brown. so 7% is probably a good lowbound (i think that is more realistic for all medical schools).

also, browns immigrant doctors have disproportionately been concentrated where native born doctors did not want to practice. for example, chicago (too cold), other declining midwestern cities (they're declining remember) and rural areas. so the 5% who are immigrant brown doctors are not distributed equally across america. in fact, one of the reasons the USA recruited brown doctors was to fill spots in rural areas that natives were abandoning.

in regards to the doctors. the average doctor makes a lot of money, look here:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm

130-250 K for median income depending on specialization is pretty phat (though malpractice for some specialties, like obstretics, means you have to discount tens of thousands off it before taxes). engineers don't make that much. they also don't go to 4 years of professional school (yes, one can become a ph.d. engineer, but most engineers don't have ph.d.s, look the rates who go to graduate the year after getting a undergrad from MIT, a minority, and this is a school where everyone could go to grad school if they wanted). and ennis is right that doctors get where they are based on hard work and and brain skills. now, most of my academic friends complain that doctors tend to have a self-inflated image of their own intelligence because they spend their days ministering to "normal" people, but part of this is jealously because of the disparate compensation.

I don't know, HMF. Friends would've been more realistic, if they lived in say, Iowa, rather than NYC. In ten years, these six white characters only ran into basically an average of a minority character per season, per 1 to 2 episodes.

That's kinda my point, I was saying although the show was set in NYC, they rarely acknowledged that in the show. NYC wasn't really a 'character', certainly not as much as say Seinfeld (episodes about Chinese Food Delivery, Handsome Cab Rides in Central Park, owning cars in New York City, Puerto Rican Day Parade, George working for NY Yankees, etc..) So it might as well have been in Iowa. But I don't know the show that well. i'd say Seinfeld is more indictable for misrepresenting NYC.

Just as an aside, can people stop bringing up places like Iowa as the example of a place that is lily white and/or socially segregated?

Hema, What places should people bring up then? Are you saying taken as an aggregate the midwest is as socially aware, and as multiculturaled as the coasts (in particular, NY, LA, SF?) No, this doesn't make the coasts perfect... but when I was in the midwest and had a 80 yr old woman ask me, "Are you going away for Easter?" assuming I was Christian, I knew that was more likely to happen in the midwest rather than not.

a few points.

http://www.im.org/AAIM/PublicPolicy/Docs/AAMCMIM05.pdf

20% of med students are Asian American. 36% of applicants who are Asian are Indian or Pakistani. Assuming similar acceptance rates that means 7% of medical students in the United States are brown. so 7% is probably a good lowbound (i think that is more realistic for all medical schools).

also, browns immigrant doctors have disproportionately been concentrated where native born doctors did not want to practice. for example, chicago (too cold), other declining midwestern cities (they're declining remember) and rural areas. so the 5% who are immigrant brown doctors are not distributed equally across america. in fact, one of the reasons the USA recruited brown doctors was to fill spots in rural areas that natives were abandoning.

in regards to the doctors. the average doctor makes a lot of money, look here:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm

130-250 K for median income depending on specialization is pretty phat (though malpractice for some specialties, like obstretics, means you have to discount tens of thousands off it before taxes). engineers don't make that much. they also don't go to 4 years of professional school (yes, one can become a ph.d. engineer, but most engineers don't have ph.d.s, look the rates who go to graduate the year after getting a undergrad from MIT, a minority, and this is a school where everyone could go to grad school if they wanted). and ennis is right that doctors get where they are based on hard work and and brain skills. now, most of my academic friends complain that doctors tend to have a self-inflated image of their own intelligence because they spend their days ministering to "normal" people, but part of this is jealously because of the disparate compensation.

medicine is a fine profession. no problem with doctors. i did pre-med for my undergrad. didnt want to go to med school for purely financial reasons. didnt seem like a positive npv decision. seemed like the money was lame.

You have to either be a doctor, work closely with one, or be married to one to really get what it's all about.

I think this is true, and generally speaking, I agree with you. I think physicians do have it tough, and if it's not a question of life or death, there's always the threat of a lawsuit lurking somewhere in the background.

However, even being married to a physician, I still get the sense that at least some physicians have a fairly healty "god" complex, or at least sincerely believe that what they do is more important than what anybody else does. This may be true in some instances, but it's not true for every doctor all the time.

Hema, I agree with you that some physicians have a "god" complex, but so do some other successful males (and sometimes females)--ibankers and MBAs for instance. It may very well be worse in medicine, though.

Agreed that its difficult for non-medicos to understand what Doctors go through.However that is no excuse for the "God complex" that some doctors develop.

It’s as if they think that being a doctor is distinct from other professions, on a plane of its own, completely inaccessible to people who do other things for a living. They also love to boast about the hours they work,

Ennis kind of nailed it - but this is true of doctors in India too.

My brother-in-law and sister-in-law are doctors and for the first few months after I got married I had to grit my teeth as every dinner table conversation was about how hard they worked ( as if the rest of us were sitting in hammocks, lazing away the days !!) and how no other profession comes close to medicine.Granted that medicine is a noble profession but everyone's contribution to society is important.

Looking back, its amusing how much this bothered me then:-)

Are you saying taken as an aggregate the midwest is as socially aware, and as multiculturaled as the coasts (in particular, NY, LA, SF?)

No, I'm not really saying that, although I do think this notion that the Midwest is filled with a bunch of racist hicks who don't know the difference between an Arab and an Indian is seriously overstated...as is the view that you can't find any semblance of cosmopolitan behavior, social awareness or racial acceptance anywhere outside of the East and West coasts.

I think my view is that there's no doubt that places like NYC or LA are more diverse than the Midwest, on the average. But I think diversity and social awareness are distinct issues. For example, my own anecdotal experience is that while New York is much more diverse than, say, Minneapolis, New Yorkers are also more "color conscious" than the vast majority of people in Minneapolis. (This is just an anecdotal example, of course...it may be that the statistics indicate exactly the opposite).

That is, it is possible to just become another average Joe in Iowa or Wisconsin over time even whether a person is brown or black, but in New York, a person is much more closely identified with their ethnic or racial background. In one sense, it's a case of diversity working against people, I guess.

i am a lawyer, and i concur to some extent with how doctors feel. though, i will say i felt this much more when i was in law school than now as a practising lawyer. the training itself, particularly in the first year, was both intellectually and emotionally challenging in a way that none of us were prepared for. and whenever i tried to explain it to my friends, nobody understood, except other lawyers/law students. so i just stopped talking about it. now, however, i think people relate more easily to being a lawyer because of media exposure, whereas what is taught in law school is not at all discussed in general public fora. but even though law school was grueling, i still think medical school, residency etc is far harder. so i completely understand when doctors say such a thing - how can others understand something that requires almost 10 years of training? i don't hold doctors on a pedestal, but i do think you have to acknowledge the more complicated nature of a profession that requires so much training before you can even begin to practise. though in no way does that mean non-doctors do not work harder - e.g. entrepreneurs. and often doctors make up with their initial long hours by having much more relaxed schedules later on. it's just different, i suppose, though no better or worse.

Back in the desh, being a doctor or engineer meant not having to worry about where your next meal came from.

But BarristerBetty, wouldn't having the [congenital] financial means and cultural capital to one day become a doctor or engineer buffer you from that in the first place? I don't know many doctors or engineers in India who came from truly hardscrabble beginnings. Let me qualify that a little: My father was an engineering professor who grew up in a tiny one-room shack [thatched roof and all], which certainly didn't match the middle-class or richer backgrounds of his American colleagues later in life. Yet the neighborhood in which he grew up, shacks and all, was considered upper middle class in 50s-era Madras [poverty can be comparative, after all]. He had parents who were educated, who bought him books and could afford school fees, and he never had to worry about where his next meal came from. Most [if not all] of his peers at school, who later became doctors and engineers in India and abroad, were in the same boat.

This is just conjecture on my part, but I think the practice of South Asian parents in the States pushing their kids to be doctors and engineers reflects the fact that most South Asians who come over here are wealthier or better connected in the first place than most of their fellow citizens. Wealthy parents all over the world push their kids towards careers that guarantee wealth and the "stability" that you mentioned.

[More conjecture] As for South Asian immigrants who weren't as well off back home as they are here, who might push their kids in a similar fashion, I think it's that they recognize that the social infrastructure in the States is more conducive to careers gained through meritocracy, and this more conducive to upward social mobility--pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, and all that jazz.

but not to the extent that i have seen it taken by some of my doctor friends and relatives

Yes, I know what you mean...Sometimes there are docs I meet who do think they're god...and it's sad b/c the medical profession should work hand-in-hand with social workers and others and I feel a lot of time, doctors don't heed the advice of social scientists and this only hurts the patient.

And then there are those docs, who treat a child who doesn't want to be a doc, like they are nothing...I speak from experience. My sis is a doc and no one ever wanted to hear about what I was doing in my work or what I was studying in college, but to my sister they gave her such acclaim. The aunties and uncles gave my sister and any other of the "youngsters" that were in med school, all the attention.

Nothing was respected except medicine - engineering was looked down on and don't let me get into law.

Maybe cause I wasn't a strong enuff person when I was younger, it made me go into some sort of depression, where I felt the only thing I could do would be to get married. It's amazing to me now, to think that is how i felt. There's just so many other things out there to do. You have to go with what works for you and have pride in it. Medicine is a great profession but it isn't for everyone and I wish more desi parents wouldn't disregard other ambitions their children may have.

there used to be a desi guy on grey's - but even though they showed him frequently in the first season, i don't recall seeing him at any point after that. re the 3 african american doctors - the creator of the show is african-american - so perhaps it is from her point of view - i.e. even non-white people can fail to be diverse vis-a-vis other minorities.

But I think diversity and social awareness are distinct issues.

They can't be completely distinct, for a certain degree of diversity is needed to become socially aware.

That is, it is possible to just become another average Joe in Iowa or Wisconsin over time even whether a person is brown or black, but in New York, a person is much more closely identified with their ethnic or racial background. In one sense, it's a case of diversity working against people, I guess.

Sure, but this doesn't mean the "brownness" is accepted, it just means it's ignored. Whitefolks in the midwest (predominantly) might accept a "brown" person, but just classify them as another white person with a really good tan (the thought process is : "they watch American Idol, they eat pizza, they go to the mall, they're 'normal', just like us"). And that's not social awareness.

I think what you should be saying is, social acceptance and social awareness are two distinct issues.

Either way, I see nothing wrong with pointing to places like montana, iowa, indiana, etc... as examples of homogenous places, that lack any kind of real social awareness.

Sure, but this doesn't mean the "brownness" is accepted, it just means it's ignored

But isn't that ultimately a good thing? If someone can look at a brown person, and see no difference that really matters, it is a form of social acceptance.

Either way, I see nothing wrong with pointing to places like montana, iowa, indiana, etc... as examples of homogenous places, that lack any kind of real social awareness.

Well, I think you have to distinguish between the Indianas and the Montanas. Montana is a sparsely populated state with a very low immigrant population. That's not really true for Indiana. The Midwest has a different cultural and social structure than the West does.

Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by "social awareness." Folks in the Midwest aren't blind to racism, nor are they more accepting of racism than people on either coast. In fact, given that immigrants make up a significantly smaller percentage of state populations in the Midwest, I'd say people in these states are actually more socially aware than on the coasts (again, depending on what you mean by "social awareness").

Of course if the makers of Law and Order were to actually reflect the criminal population of NY in a realistic manner, then they'd be called racists, Ennis-the-resentful would probably be first in line. So it's a straight question Ennis - do you think Law and Order should reflect demographic fact as well?

Sean Hannity! I never thought we'd see you here at SM. Vanakkam.

If Law and Order reflected reality, there would be one female criminal every 1000 shows, or something. The overwhelming majority of convicts are male. And also, if we stuck to the reality tip, SVU would have episodes in the single digits every year. Sex crimes have been declining sharply in NYC for years now.

You appear only to want everyone's favorite tabloid-ripoff cop drama to "reflect" whatever twisty, unpleasant views of racial hierarchy you have.

But isn't that ultimately a good thing? If someone can look at a brown person, and see no difference that really matters, it is a form of social acceptance.

Oh no, I have to disagree on that. I believe differences should be acknowledged, for any kind of true understanding. Any notions of equality without understanding are meaningless. in particular for groups of people who have widely different histories and legacies in this country. For example, a white person cannot look at a black person and "see no difference", they need to acknolwedge their history is vastly different from their own, and has reprecussions on the present day. Same with latino, hispanic, indian, etc...

It's acknowledging and accepting the difference that's key.

Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by "social awareness." Folks in the Midwest aren't blind to racism, nor are they more accepting of racism than people on either coast. In fact, given that immigrants make up a significantly smaller percentage of state populations in the Midwest, I'd say people in these states are actually more socially aware than on the coasts (again, depending on what you mean by "social awareness").

I mean acknowledging that there are different cultures in the world, that white Christian lifestyle is not unilateraly more "normal" or "better" I don't see how you can make the case that, that sentiment is stronger in the midwest? I lived in Indiana, for two years, the college newspaper ran an article about "minority growth" and only commented on the black population. No mention of hispanic, latino, asian, native american, etc... I seriously cannot imagine such a thing happening in new york city or los angeles.

In fact, given that immigrants make up a significantly smaller percentage of state populations in the Midwest, I'd say people in these states are actually more socially aware than on the coasts

This makes no sense, given any definition of social awareness. How can you be aware of something you don't even know exists - or only know through television?

"You appear only to want everyone's favorite tabloid-ripoff cop drama to "reflect" whatever twisty, unpleasant views of racial hierarchy you have."

No, I'm saying that Ennis is whining about fiction not mirroring reality when it comes to desi representation on ER, so why isn't he complaining about the fact that Law & Order doesn't mirror demographic reality as well? There is a greater percentage of desi doctors in the US population than is portrayed on television. Likewise there is a far, FAR greater percentage of black criminals in NY than TV portrays. I don't care either way, but Ennis has a fixation on fiction mirroring reality when it comes to minorities, so lets take it to its logical conclusion:

- Way less Jews on TV.
- Way more black and hispanic criminals on TV.
- Every TV show set in Cali should have precisely 57% of its characters as minorities.

And on, and on, and onnnnnnnnn.
-

Oh no, I have to disagree on that. I believe differences should be acknowledged, for any kind of true understanding.

and how are they supposed to acknowledge differences when they can't tell by the color of your skin and the mien of your face??? i mean, basically you're suggesting that people shouldn't talk to you and making polite assumptions unless you are wearing a "i am non-christian" shirt, because there are brown christians, and they are overrepresented in the american brown community. myself, i regular am assumed to be hindu, and people are polite to me on that account (one time someone offered me a vegetarian platter at a party). i know decruz (a christian) has been assumed to be a vegetarian because he looks like a hindu (that is, he's brown). the kind of fine grained awareness you're looking for is predicated on either two things

a) knowing someone really well as a necessary precondition toward conversation, which will lead to a total banishment of casual contact and banter in public places where you encounter the unfamiliar

b) a perfect correlation between outward markers and other aspects of their character. e.g., if you see a sikh dressed "like a sikh" you can make a good guess that they are sikh and to greet them in a sensitive fashion. but what about sikhs who dress in a manner totally indifferent from their hindu punjabi compatriots?

TV ignores statistics--it looks at what will sell and make the loudest people least angry.

Summarizes why to Hollywood, Neo Nazis are the still most realistic villians...

because there are brown christians, and they are overrepresented in the american brown community

This is a special case, and I still contend "brown christians" are have more cultural similarity with the 2nd generation Indian population (regardless of religion) rather than their white christian counterparts. From what little I know, Christianity as practiced in India is distinctly separate from how it's practiced here in the States. but I may be wrong.

the kind of fine grained awareness you're looking for is predicated on either two things

I wouldn't consider the awareness as fine-grained at all. I'm not saying they should know what village I came from, that we as south indians, fast on the 3rd lunar month, where as north indians fast on the 3nd thursday, etc. Just a general acknowledgement of a salient difference. It's not a question of people mistaking you for a Hindu, it's people looking at you and not saying because you eat pizza, hang out at the mall, that you're "just like them."

Oh no, I have to disagree on that. I believe differences should be acknowledged, for any kind of true understanding

You can understand that someone is different, and still find it insignificant in your interactions with that someone. I think this is what I mean by the Midwest being "color blind" while the more diverse, more cosmopolitan coasts are so caught up in being socially aware, they can't really dissociate the cultural differences from their social interactions.

I mean acknowledging that there are different cultures in the world, that white Christian lifestyle is not unilateraly more "normal" or "better"

I've lived in the Midwest for more than 15 years now (yes, I really am old), having lived in Canada and on the east coast before that, and I don't get the feeling that most Midwesterners are either ignorant of other cultures, or believe that the "white Christian lifestyle" is more normal or better. Of course, my experiences are anecdotal (and limited to college towns and urban areas), but the attitude reflected in your statement above is exactly the sort of thing I'm complaining about on SM. This view just does not ring true to me, both as an Indian and a longtime Midwest resident.

ps:

You have to go with what works for you and have pride in it.

hear, hear.

and deshishiksa:

...and that we are boring and ill-informed about the world in general

you have to be a non-doctor, work closely with one or be married to one to fully understand how boring and ill-informed doctors can be... ;)

i'm saying that completely tongue-in-cheek, of course. so please take it with a grain of salt. there are a few doctors that i know who are extremely interesting to talk to. on the other hand, there are several academics i know that are elitist, boring and ill-informed about the rest of the world...

NA-

I agree with your sentiments. I've heard the stories of living in snake-infected shacks in med school etc. While my parents were not wealthy, and the first in their family to go to college, you are right, everything is relative. I suppose they were better off than others, though not glamorous by any means.

And on a more snarky note, I'm surprised that Chick Pea, aka "I'm a super cancer doctor hear me roar" has been relatively silent when it comes to her favorite subject to gloat/judge about!

How many times have you heard a doctor say that nobody can understand what they go through unless they’re a doctor themselves?

Well, Ennis, how can you expect doctors to understand a non-doctor's point of view? After all, doctors are not non-doctors, right?

Think about that.

Of course, my experiences are anecdotal (and limited to college towns and urban areas), but the attitude reflected in your statement above is exactly the sort of thing I'm complaining about on SM.

Well, then I guess we are at an anecdotal impasse. Because I have lived in West Lafayette Indiana, and have found that most white attitudes range from outright derision to the "you're just like us" form of acceptance. Both of which don't sit well with me. This was 5 years ago, so some miniscule change might have occurred, but truthfully, the people there haven't even warmed up to the concept of a "brown" person that has lived, and grown up in the USA.

If you're honestly going to tell me that whites in the midwest do not have a "our way is the 'normal' way" attitude, moreso than the coasts, where exposure to "other ways" is clearly higher.. then I don't know what else to say.

Incidentally, I left Indiana 2 months before 9/11. To this day I thank Krishna, Jesus, Mohammed, Jehova, Buddha and every other god out there that I wasn't there during that horrible event. Sure - was it perfect for me out in NYC? No, a whole lot of fat Italian pizzeria owners yelled "va fangool" in NYC, but you takes what you can gets.

This is a special case, and I still contend "brown christians" are have more cultural similarity with the 2nd generation Indian population (regardless of religion) rather than their white christian counterparts. From what little I know, Christianity as practiced in India is distinctly separate from how it's practiced here in the States. but I may be wrong.

of course it is distinctly separate, but anna (a jacobite syrian christian by background) attended a greek eastern orthodox church as a child. so that should tell you that there are similarities. and my response was predicated on your offense to easter, as christians in india do celebrate that most central of christian holidays. but in any case, the general problem is still there: in a diverse society how do you establish a common ground of discourse with people in public places? you make assumptions about them. as an atheist of muslim familial background people commonly try to forge a tie with me by reference to hinduism (many in the local area have been over there). generally i'm just embarrassed because they get embarrassed when they find out my background, but honestly, the numbers would suggest that i would be hindu (85% of american browns are from what i can tell). so i don't get irritated because people are trying to do their best (i do get irritated if they continue to assume i'm hindu, which has happened. or, if someone explains me why i should be hindu because i'm brown).

I humbly request you unitalicise that and repost it, with some line breaks. I made it to the 3rd line and got a headache.

If you're honestly going to tell me that whites in the midwest do not have a "our way is the 'normal' way" attitude, moreso than the coasts, where exposure to "other ways" is clearly higher.. then I don't know what else to say.

I'm not saying every single white person in the Midwest is socially aware. I'm saying that the generalization that most Midwesterners are not socially aware is not correct either. I lived in the Midwest before, during and after 9/11, in a college town, and I never experienced a single instance of discrimination, and neither did my husband. I'm not saying that's true for everyone, but that's my experience...and it's the broad "all Midwesterners are racist hicks" generalization that I'm objecting to anyway.

Also, NYC is not all of New York. I'm fairly certain that the level of social awareness in Troy and Albany is much less than in NYC. Similarly, LA, SF and San Diego are not all of California, and I'm pretty sure that folks in small town CA are about as "socially aware" as people in small town Michigan.

I lived in the Midwest before, during and after 9/11, in a college town, and I never experienced a single instance of discrimination,

Well, I have. Like I said, anecdotal impasse.

Also, NYC is not all of New York. I'm fairly certain that the level of social awareness in Troy and Albany is much less than in NYC. Similarly, LA, SF and San Diego are not all of California,

Where did I imply that they were?

it is distinct from other professions in that most doctors deal with life and death issues on a daily basis, and nearly every decision they make can impact whether someone lives or dies? So yes, from that perspective no one really gets what we go through. That doesn't make us "special", but it does have a huge impact on our lives. I generally don't say this to other people, so I'm sorry your friends boast about it; perhaps you should find new friends. But they are right. You have to either be a doctor, work closely with one, or be married to one to really get what it's all about. There are other professions that this is probably true of--the military or firefighters for example.

Desishiksa - this is a very interesting comment. I did seriously date an ER doctor, and remember clearly when her first patient coded. On the other hand, I also got the impression that such life and death issues were far from daily. Even the patient who