Wow...with fellow Indian like this (is it okay to call him/her Indian?), who needs enemies?

I'm sorry, but I have to say that the comment should have been ignored. If you commenced looking for idiotic, racist, moronic, antediluvian, effete, intolerant comments on the web and writing about them, you'd be writing for the rest of you life. We know there are people (in the world) who make comments like this, think like this and sometimes talk openly like this. If the idea is to change their minds, I think their friends and those close to them would be likely to be more successful than you or I commenting or blogging about them. So I guess I respectfully fail to see--at a strictly utilitarian level-- the point of this post.

If you commenced looking for idiotic, racist, moronic, antediluvian, effete, intolerant comments on the web and writing about them, you'd be writing for the rest of you life.

But I didn't commence looking for it. Someone left it right here. Some of you even noticed.

We know there are people (in the world) who make comments like this, think like this and sometimes talk openly like this.

Yes, some of them frequent this site. It's also come up recently in a few comment threads; I thought I'd delve in to it a bit, in case others wanted to.

If the idea is to change their minds, I think their friends and those close to them would be likely to be more successful than you or I commenting or blogging about them.

But some of these people ARE our friends and they ARE reading this. That's why I thought this might be useful. If nothing else, people who didn't know that this mentality exists among us, now do.

Thanks for disagreeing so respectfully!

There is something wrong when a guy's biggest accomplishment is being 6'4".

I can just picture this guy in a New York club trying to explain to a group of white women his "Scythian” background makes it is okay for them to have sex with him because it really isnt "inter-racial"

I mean this guy uses the phrase "princely land"! Who the fuc# talks like that besides little girls playing pretend?

Guy: Yes I come from princely lands
girl: So, you're a prince?
Guy: No, its just that the lands are very princely.
girl: What the hell are you talking about?
Guy: What I mean is that someone was once a prince and they had the same skin tone as me.
girl: Yea and Im white and so is Tom Brady, does that make me from the superbowly lands, you tard?

I had written a response to that wannabe "scythian" but the comments were closed:

the White Races, as in Greeks, Scythians, Huns, Georgians, Persians and Aryans. Which total around 2% to 3% mainly in the Warrior and Priestly Castes.

You silly ignorant "scythian", most of the nutjobs who claim scythian ancestry are jatt sudras. Thats the servant caste in hinduism, not the warrior or priestly caste. Get it? Dont get too flattered by the guy playing the sikh, he is half-european.

By the way, Kristin Kreuk is actually a pretty decent representation of the Mughal muslim conquerors of India who were of turco-mongol ancestry. Babur, who founded the Mughal Dynasty, was descended from Changez Khan of Mongolia and Tamerlane (Timur Lenk) of Central Asia. Tamerlane himself claimed descent from Changez Khan and his mongoloid ancestry is confirmed by reconstruction of his exhumed skeleton by russian scientists.

What I want to know is why "Scyth" is reading and posting on a desi-centric site when he/she claims not to be Indian?

Ditto to Chachji's response.

pretty sad when the only accomplishment that a loser can claim is belonging to some half forgotten savage race from the caucasus/Urals.I guess if the tribe of his savage ancestors had stayed on in their native land,there's a pretty decent chance they wouldnt have survived the depredations of Mongols,Huns,Nazism,communism,chernobyl,various economic meltdowns,famines,AIDS.

Prema, Its funny how no one knows anything about anyone. To you, "jatts" are your slaves, In Punjab "jatt's" are land owners/farmers. In Punjab, if you own land, you are rich and if you own land in Chandigarh, your a millionare. I am so confused!!

Anyway, this caste stuff is BS. Everyone get over yourselves!

I never heard of this Scythian BS before reading references to it on SM. Honestly, it's pathetically hilarious. The 'Scythian' above is of a self-hating variety not seen among desis since...probably the early 20C Aryan-wannabes trying to get into the Brit-only clubs or something.

what precisely is a scythian? can i go to scythian land and see some of them living in a scythian village somewhere?

This is the average comment that you get in jatt world.

This is a silly post to respond to BUT as a seriously northy guy (from the very top of jambudweep as it were) i have come across this kind of attitude in some fellow northies. There is also an undertone of this type of racism in the various "freedom movements" in north india. I am not going to address the issue of pakistani self-image but it follows along similar lines with a bonus islamic twist to it.

THe good news is this: while some folks up-north were busy with this kind of gibberish our southern fellow citizens were hitting the books and educating their women right. Result: the indian south leads today and will continue to lead heavily in economics, job creation, culture and ultimately coolness. So these dudes better start learning some tamil, telugu of kannada - that will really help when than good job opens up down south.

This is a silly post to respond to BUT as a seriously northy guy (from the very top of jambudweep as it were) i have come across this kind of attitude in some fellow northies. There is also an undertone of this type of racism in the various "freedom movements" in north india. I am not going to address the issue of pakistani self-image but it follows along similar lines with a bonus islamic twist to it.

THe good news is this: while some folks up-north were busy with this kind of gibberish our southern fellow citizens were hitting the books and educating their women right. Result: the indian south leads today and will continue to lead heavily in economics, job creation, culture and ultimately coolness. So these dudes better start learning some tamil, telugu of kannada - that will really help when than good job opens up down south.

yeah. but the guy is "all american". sounds like a brown dude tring to get into an all white country club in connecticut by claiming to be scythian (whatever that means).

I never heard of this Scythian BS before reading references to it on SM

That's probably true of most of us. ;)

Wow, this is a wonderful day, I am so enlightened. I just realized my body is full of oodles of Sycthian blood and I am supposed to be proud of it. And oh, I should now remind myself to hang out with all those Greeks out there - they are so cool anyways. This might also explain why I love Gyros so much, and oh those olives are delightful. And I think since my ancestors moved to the hot land of these darkies, we started turning dark. But nature was kind and to maintain our fair skin, somewhere over the centuries the gray matter in my head got converted to white pigment. Also, now I see while growing up, why whenever I used to see the Swastika, I would feel a strange calling and start running west. And now I know why the one time I saw this magnificent horse, we both knew we had a bond that has stood over time.

why would someone who is "all american" even think about "princely states". the whole idea of a princely state is as un-american as it gets.

Scyth, I feel your pain. It's been tough for us ever since the death of these two guys. And Luke. Goddamn Luke. Talk about betrayal.

I maybe wrong, but It seems like that among immigrants to west from India. The darker south indians are much more educated, then the precious fair skin northern indians.

Also the female abortion problem and the runaway groom problem is much bigger in Northern India, then in South India.

Also I'm a fair skin North Indian.

I maybe wrong, but It seems like that among immigrants to west from India. The darker south indians are much more educated, then the precious fair skin northern indians.

Also the female abortion problem and the runaway groom problem is much bigger in Northern India, then in South India.

Also I'm a fair skin North Indian.

this has nothing to do with logic. has more to do with. im whiter, so im better. white people are rich and smart. im more like them.

And oh, I should now remind myself to hang out with all those Greeks out there - they are so cool anyways.

Yes, they'll be quite receptive to all this and shall receive you as one of their own, by smirking and nicknaming you "Habibi". Scyth desperately wants to be part of a group which wants no part of him.

It's probably just a way to distinguish oneself from those "kaley Madraasi" types. ;)

Yes, they'll be quite receptive to all this and shall receive you as one of their own, by smirking and nicknaming you "Habibi". Scyth desperately wants to be part of a group which wants no part of him.

can i make up an ethnic group and claim superiority too?

start learning some tamil, telugu of kannada -

please add Malayalam to the list otherwise some southies might get offended :).

girl: So, you're a prince? Guy: No, its just that the lands are very princely.

Funny, funny stuff. Love it! :)

For me, when Ardy typed:

And now I know why the one time I saw this magnificent horse, we both knew we had a bond that has stood over time.

...it was funny. Priceless.

hmm...do light skinned "scythian" desis look like generic brown people to non desis?

can i go to scythian land and see some of them living in a scythian village somewhere?

Take 1-95, drive 73 miles, exit 114. The first right behind the Walmart you will see the sign. If I remember right, its $15 bucks for a car. No RV's and campers allowed. Ooh and they are very strict about visitors not feeding them. So be careful.

By the way, Kristin Kreuk is actually a pretty decent representation of the Mughal muslim conquerors of India who were of turco-mongol ancestry. Babur, who founded the Mughal Dynasty, was descended from Changez Khan of Mongolia and Tamerlane (Timur Lenk) of Central Asia. Tamerlane himself claimed descent from Changez Khan and his mongoloid ancestry is confirmed by reconstruction of his exhumed skeleton by russian scientists.

A litte OT here Prema, but you would definitely love to read "My name is Red" by Orhan Pamuk (he won the Nobel last year). It's about Turkish/Persian miniaturists and the author gives a very detailed explanation of how classically trained miniaturists took their visual cues from their turco-mongol ancestors -- this manifests itself in that fact that even illustrations featuring Iranian/Arab noblewomen depicted them with slanted eyes since slanted eyes were visual shorthand for beautiful woman.

Take 1-95, drive 73 miles, exit 114. The first right behind the Walmart you will see the sign. If I remember right, its $15 bucks for a car. No RV's and campers allowed. Ooh and they are very strict about visitors not feeding them. So be careful.

funny.

gumpy. i should put that in my shaadi.com profile.

nice gumpy boy looking for gumpy girl to make gumpy babies.

I would agree with what Al Beruni is saying in #12. I too have seen a lot of fascination on being closer to white than brown among a few of my fellow northies and it's almost disgusting at times. Even in my own relatives I have seen people equate beauty with fair skin - the statement 'Kinni gori ai, vadi soni kudi ai' is unfortunately too common. And the point of a Pakistani identity thing, many of them consider themselves as middle eastern. I wish we spent less time obsessing over these things and spent more time liberating our women and studying, the progress of South India was not a fluke.

Someone Scythian just complimented me! This means more to me than when someone dark does, because I want the approval of people who have sharp, Iranic/Germanic features. Wheeee!

do light skinned "scythian" desis look like generic brown people to non desis?

If I read his comment right "Schythian" desi is an oxymoron.

But if I remember right, they looked very similar, well except some of them (like the Scyth), I was told, weighed less than most humans. I think by about 2%. I was told it was because of the lack of this thing called the brain.

But still, they responded well to bananas.

consider themselves as middle eastern

...because, of course the middle east isnt a hole that wouldnt sink into barbarism if they didnt have oil.

Look, simply put our Scythian (whatevah that is) chap has a problem, the people he distances himself from don't. If he wants to preoccupy himself by constantly clarifying his place on some hocus-pocus race totem pole he is going to have a pretty miserable life. In ShallowThinkers skit (#4) the gump who goes up to a woman and says "hey you look nice do you want to get jiggy?" will appear normal, decent and real compared to this Scythian Scoobydoo.

Some genius came up with History of India in C language

char History_of_India(int residents = Dravidians) {
int intruders;
char Indian_history[ENDLESS];

wend{
intruders = Hindukush::read_stack();
if (intruders==0, Intruders = British Empire);
working_their_way_down_the_ganges(intruders);
Indian_history += Squabble(residents,intruders);
residents += intruders;
}while t
return Indian_history
}

Yo Yo ..I got better research for his ancestry..
I just traced him back to The Mandrill... Yay!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrill

Love the Idea of Reuniting the Lost. Happy Tears.
Hope I get a Banana for this.

i wonder if these guys will fare better when the "rage virus" k!lls us all. that blood is resistant i think.

Revenge of the Scyth

HMF: I respectfully have to disagree, that comment is more like the 40 year old Scythian.

Anna,
How on earth were you even able to figure out that such crap was being written on such an old post?? I clicked back on the links thinking that this was something I missed recently but the original post is from last year! Let's just leave Scythian there where he belongs-in the past. This guy has some serious issues but he did sound more apologetic in the comment after the one you have above. So I'm guessing that something/someone must have hurt him badly in the past in ref to his ancestry and this thread probably flared it up. I say better to ignore.

How on earth were you even able to figure out that such crap was being written on such an old post??

We don't just moderate newer posts. :)

well in that case (#42) I think I'll go back to Anna's post on the effect of pineapple juice!! :0 )

This guy has some serious issues but he did sound more apologetic in the comment after the one you have above

bg is referring to this, when they state that "Scyth" sounded more apologetic in his second comment:

Bottom line, everyone knows "India" circa 1947, is nothing more than a conglomerate of many nationalities, cultures, religions languages and races. All lumped into a political nation. Of course most are Dravidians, or peoples with a considerable concentration of Dravidian blood. But not everyone. There's the pure Negros, the pure Naga Chinese Races, and of course the White Races, as in Greeks, Scythians, Huns, Georgians, Persians and Aryans. Which total around 2% to 3% mainly in the Warrior and Priestly Castes. Regardless to what you are, what you look like, your race, your beliefs, your culture, don't forget you're a Human Being. And when people stop showing respect to others or erasing their heritages or slandering and deceiving others or spreading malicious lies and promoting conflict because of their intolerances, then you get failed 3rd World Nations. There will be an opposite reaction to all this. And it won't be pleasent. It'll end up like the failed States of India and Pakistan and much of the Middle East. Where intolerance towards people is the norm. Everyone knows the regions of India, The Middle East, even Europe and America are all Melting Pots. Most of the World are Melting Pots and blends of people, with the exception of Mainland China and Japan. And a few regions in Scandanavia. But who cares. What really matters is respecting others for who they are and what they believe. The Greeks/Scythians of India claim themselves to be of Greco-Scythic lineages, and look like Greeks and Scyths. So why disrespect them and claim they are not? It isn't like India is one monolithic race of people. But instead a multitude of many races. The true Hindu count in India is less than 20% if that. Dravidians and Negros lumped as "low caste hindus" is not only hilarious, but a sick joke. The Sakas, Greeks, Huns, Persians in blood in the northwest look like Sakas, Greeks, Huns and Persians. So respect them for who they are if you seek to gain any respect back. Anyone can adopt another religion, another langauge, another culture, but it won't change their race. Provided they don't mix. But language, names and religion don't neccessarily have anything to do with race. Forgive me if I disprected anyone here in my last comment. But it seems as though Dravidians are just as racist as Scythic/Aryans were in the past. Either way it isn't right, and is the cause of why the 3rd World is the failed 3rd World. And not a tolerant, advanced and developed 1st World. Thank You. [link]

The Sakas, Greeks, Huns, Persians in blood in the northwest look like Sakas, Greeks, Huns and Persians. So respect them for who they are if you seek to gain any respect back. Anyone can adopt another religion, another langauge, another culture, but it won't change their race. Provided they don't mix.

Heh. Pretty apologetic right there...to the Sakas, Greeks, Huns and Persians anyway.

An anthropologist could have a field day with the kind of delusions and conceited lunacy, prejudice and comedic levels of backwardness and moronic 'pride' that underlies the 'Scythian-Kamboh' white skinned roots castesist mentality displayed here and amongst other people I have stared at in disbelief as they disgorge their ancestry nonsense in word and on page. They like to talk about themselves at length in this deluded and slightly maddened way, so it wouldnt be too difficult to get them in a room and recount their amazing tales. Come on anthropologists and psychiatrists, these are ripe case studies waiting for official scientific humiliation and analysis.

Wow....

Where was this guy when Hitler needed him?

Yeesh.

1) there seems a pretty obvious explicit or implicit preference for lighter skin and 'sharp' features amongst brown people in general, even among those who deny the salience of these characteristics. so of course groups which are lighter and sharper will emphasize their superiority, and other groups will always try and emphasize those 'below' on the totem pole. i recall this tendency amongst some of my parents' telugu speaking friends who sharply distinguished themselves from the 'dravidian' tamils.

2) that being said, glorying in group level traits seems pretty empirically a good clue that there isn't much in regards to the individual level traits to brag about. e.g., if someone is an investment banker who has all the ladies i doubt he would be bragging about his dirt farming scythian ancestors. that is the interesting thing: i think almost everyone knows that people who brag about their ancestors lack something in their own self esteem, but those who engage in this sort of behavior can't seem to help themselves. ultimately it isn't about how other people view them (i assume that eyes invariably start rolling), it is how they perceive themselves in the great chain of being. if you can't achieve in your life, you can at least take solace in the fact that you were born the apple of creation's eye.

Does anyone remember the racist Sikh character from Naipaul's 'An Area of Darkness'. When I read that book, I was like 'wow! I have been meeting such people all my life (not all of them sikhs), and I am glad someone put them down with all their absurdities on paper'.

So can anyone show me a picture of a Scythian Indian person? I'm really curious now.

# 36

My Sooper Dravidian.BC compiler is throwing "Scythax Error" on that Code..I need to upgrade.Maybe ill feed it some Fair_nd_lovely.sys and complan_makes_you_taller.bat file to get it to speed..

"in my own relatives I have seen people equate beauty with fair skin"

Iranians are probably the best looking people on earth.

On average, lighter skinned people are more attractive than browner ones, I believe light skin was sexually selected for when dark skin became unnecessary in northern climates.

Iranians are probably the best looking people on earth.

well, if you like 'natural' sweaters.

i recall this tendency amongst some of my parents' telugu speaking friends who sharply distinguished themselves from the 'dravidian' tamils

i find this interesting, as i do think a lot of south indians in general - from all 4 regions - exhibit what are known as 'dravidian characteristics.' my family is telugu, but well-planted in tamil nadu (so i'm sure there was plenty of inter-mixing there). in general i see no marked difference at all between telugus and tamils in terms of physical appearance. e.g. my parents' respective groups of telugu and tamil friends seem to overall just look 'south indian' to me, rather than distinctly tamil or telugu. it's amazing how people will use one or two rare exceptions in appearance to consider it to be the rule.

" My Sooper Dravidian.BC compiler is throwing "Scythax Error" on that Code. "

I think you forgot to inherit the Racist class :

class Scythian:public Racist
{
...
};

it's working fine for me now.

I didn't realize that in the original posting (#86) "Scyth" had added links to his photos.

Obviously, it's just a joke. No one of true Scythian heritage would drive a Dodge Durango(!) (Message to Scyth: Did you ever hear of GMC, or at least Ford? :)

Of course, if you do own the .50 CALIBER SNIPER RIFLE in the photo album, I take that back. One semester, many years ago when I was 22, I lifted weights with a Marine. He told me about his previous summer, when his radio was stolen from his Jeep. He spent a month lying by his house at night with a rifle loaded with tracer rounds, in case the thief came back. Later, he brought the gun to school, but not many people knew. Ah, those were more peaceful years. Really, a Durango?

"if you can't achieve in your life, you can at least take solace in the fact that you were born the apple of creation's eye."

This was a common belief among the downtrodden British working class at the height of Empire. They were at the bottom of the pile - but were at the center of a mighty empire, and were 'better' than the blacks and browns their countrymen ruled.

On average, lighter skinned people are more attractive than browner ones

Sure. I mean, it's not like lighter skinned people ever actually alter their skin to be more brown, do they? ;)

Hey boston-reader, well spotted.

The master race stares at you darkies! Bow down if you dare look at the supermans white face!

Scythian Ubermenschen

I like your post, Anna. I had no clue about the so-called Scythian ancestry claimed by any group of people from India...but then I am a gumpy South Indian with thunder thighs to boot!

Randomizer,

How about giving up the code:

class Scythian(Racist, Ignorant, Needs_To_Read_History_Books):
...

and going into biotech, you know, inventing the syringe-administrable history serum
where the patient is so overwhelmed by the pain done to others that he uses his
Durango to deliver food to seniors . . .

This Scythian bullshit is brought upon by the same people who are still shouting for Khalistan. Its mostly sikh jatts living outside india whose total ignornce of historical facts lead them to believe, that since Scythians are potrayed in comics to have long hair, and sikh have long hair...they must be one. At least most here can get away from these people....Imagine my hell some of these idiots belong to my extended family, and I can't break away from the collective rationality vaccuum during family gatherings.

On average, lighter skinned people are more attractive than browner ones, I believe light skin was sexually selected for when dark skin became unnecessary in northern climates.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I've come across plenty of ugly people that were fair-skinned. Ugliness knows no color. I'm a fair skinned woman, but my being fair-skinned doesn't equate to me be fly - my juicy booty does (no matter what the aunties say).

This Scythian bullshit is brought upon by the same people who are still shouting for Khalistan.

Not saying that you don't have personal experience of the ignorance you claim certain people have(you sound a little bitter), but isn't a blanket statement like that a bit naive? Should the musings of some people you know speak for all those who are fighting/advocating Khalistan? And how did Khalistan come into the disucssion anyways? Were you just looking for a segue?

My apologies: In the comment above, I meant to say fighting for/advocating, and not fighting/advocating

OK, I think I'm probably the first person to have used the word 'Scythian' here. But in case there's doubt in anyone's mind, I don't endorse this idiot's views at all. I kind of regret ever mentioning Scythians, although hopefully there's no connection between my comments and this jerk's. I'm glad the whole thing became sort of an inside joke here...before this guy wrote his garbage at least. In any case, let us condemn him all we want, he deserves it. But historically, there was a Scythian culture and people, they were not 'dirt farmers', they actually had a lot of impressive cultural and military accomplishments, and they did have a presence in northern India, and probably did form some percent of some people's ancestries, as well as left some degree of cultural imprint. But I think ANNA covered that very well in her post. Nothing for anyone to get all Hitler about, like this fool.

The Khalistanis I know take great pains to show their cultural differences (imagined or otherwise) from mainstream India. They use this as part of an argument for separation from India. Portion of this argument of the argument involves their so called 'Scythian' origins. This is where the Khalistani, Scythian and Jatt nexus comes into play. If I appear bitter, it may be because I was reminded of the countless wasted minutes listening to the 'Khalistani' argument.

This issue has little to do with Khalistan or Sikhs. This issue is also common amongst Hindu and Muslim Jaats as well as Sikh Jats. Although it does seem, but maybe due to their disproportionate numbers in America, that Sikh Jats talk about this the most. I visited the infamous jattworld.com and below is their main argument. I use to be a member of these sites too (at that time jatt.com) and did partake in this. They cite this post written almost 10 years ago as if it is the Gospel:

Rebuttals to "Jatt as a Caste" Theory

The biggest Misconception regarding the term "Jatt" is defining it as a "Caste" as per the standards set by the Indian Caste System. Nothing can be far away from truth as this misconception. The fact that Jatt is a Race has been widely supported by both historians and raciologists working in this field and has been discussed in detail. Here are some negations and rebuttals to the false claim that Jatt is a so called "Caste". These rebuttals have not been and cannot be negated and the truth lies in the fact that Jatt is a Race and not a Caste as traditionally thought. Here are five rebuttals that will prove this point.

Rebuttal 1) ETHNIC NATURE: If you look at the Nature of a "Caste", you will notice that its spread throughout India. Eg Caste consists of professions divided into four Categories called Varnas. The Caste System, in its present form, is further based solely upon birth. Thus, as per Caste Rules, Farmer Profession is categorized under Vaisya Category (Varna). And Remember that as per Caste SYSTEM in its present form, this is to be based upon Birth i.e. Farmer's son MUST ONLY be Farmer if Caste System has to be maintained. This point will further be used as a rebuttal in proving how Jatt is not a Caste. Now talking about Ethnicity, you will notice that Caste is not Ethnic in nature at all. Eg a Priest living in North of India will belong to a Brahmin Caste and a Priest living in South of India will also belong to Brahmin Caste. THERE IS NO ETHNIC SIMILARITY HERE. In the same way, NOTE VERY CAREFULLY that a Farmer of North India will be a Vaish and a Farmer of South of India will also be a Vaish. This Logic leads us to conclude that IF Jatt is a Caste (assuming the proposition that Jatts are Farmers) then Jatts must also be Present uniformly throughout India, (just like Brahmins) the land where Caste System is present. But observation tells us that Jatts are only present in Punjab, Haryana and parts of Uttar Pardesh. This gives an Ethnic Nature to Jatt Identity strongly proving the case that assumption "Jatt means Farmer" is false and thereby further concluding assumption that Jatt is a Caste is False too. FIRST REBUTTAL OVER.

Rebuttal 2) RACE PRESENCE: It should be noted that this discussion is yet not concerned with Historical viewpoint and raciological and archaeological study of Jatt History. Its just about rebuttals to how Jatt is not a "Caste". What it is then, is a matter of study that will be made in further papers.
Caste is present in different Races. Eg Priestly Caste Brahmins are present in South Indian Dravidian Race as well as in North Indian Races. If its assumed that Jatt is a caste, why then are there no Jatts in, lets say, Dravidian Races? Again, the Ethnic Nature Rebuttal further strengthens this point and further helps this rebuttal in making yet another point in how Jatt is not a Caste.

Rebuttal 3) FUNDAMENTALS OF CASTES: All the fundamentals, rules and regulations of Castes are goverened by Religious Law Books such as Manusmriti written by a man called Manu. All of these books are part of Hinduism, written by Hindu Mystics. Two thirds of Jatt Community does not follow Hinduism and thereby Manusmriti, that defines and regulates the basic backbone of Caste System holds no relevance for this two thirds of Jatt Community who are not Hindus but are Jatts. Yet another strong rebuttal as how Jatt is not a Caste.

Rebuttal 4) PROFESSIONAL NATURE OF CASTES: Castes are professional in nature. Though Caste System further makes it a compulsion to make it based upon birth. But Jatts can be found in just any profession: Business, Politics, Sports and so on. Proving further Jatt is Not a Caste.

Rebuttal 5) CASTE-EXCOMMUNICATION: This is yet another important point. As a punitive measure, the Caste of a person can be degraded if some pre-defined rules are not set i.e. a person who is a Brahmin can be degraded to a Shudra Caste and so on. Thus Caste follows the rule of Ex-Communication. But a Jatt born among the Jatts can, under no condition, be ex-communicated. Good or Evil, a Jatt shall always remain a Jatt.

Together, the above five points of rebuttals thereby confirm the fact without doubt that Jatt is not a Caste.

---------------
I have grown up over the years, but it is interesting to see the same bacvas replicate itself. When a Jatt Gill girl wanted to marry a Kumar boy. She seemed frustrated by her parents being unreasonable and posted:

I understand our culture, heritage and history but fail to see our sense of superiority.
It's not what you were, it's what you are today, as humans and as individuals we represent ourselves - being born black, white, jatt, brahmin does NOT make us better looking, more clever etc

Why do I find the young Jatts today on this site so proud to be Jatt? What exactly are you proud off? Do you think you're better? Do you think out-of-caste marriage is wrong? What achievements have you recieved that makes you feel special? Forget your ancestors, you can't live your whole-lives just saying your blood is better because of your fore-fathers...wouldn't that just be called pathetic?

They replied:

you and i both know that this is a made up story from some pitch black ugly dravidian animal that prays to clay action figures comparable to the ninja turtles...and is using this story to try and create a atmosphere of equals between jatts and ugly dravidian animals.

***** WHAT YOU GUYS THINKG
IM *****IN JATT FOR LIFE AND IF YOU JATT AND SAYING I DONT CARE, THE KILL YOUR SELF, AFTER BEING ONE THIS SITE AND KNWOING YOUR HISTORY YOU STILL LIKE THAT THEN YOU WHITEWASHED OR ONE SOME SHIT WTF
AFTER KNOWING YOU HISTORY YOU CANT SAY YOUR PROUD OF BEING JATT, THEN YOU MIST BE *****IN DUMB STUPID ETC LOL

commit suicide, let us all be ridden of this bullshite smoke blunts till you pass out!

Also it is interesting to note who most frequents these websites in terms of gender. Women are proud to be jatti and you see it in user names, etc. But the extent of male dominance has no bounds.

In reply to Ardy, Comment 31:

I'm Pakistani and basically consider myself Indian, as well as many of my other pakistani friends.

This thread reminds me of the reason I hate this icon of American music

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury

Nice! The humor here is refreshing.

The preference for lighter skin color is prevalent even in South India, big market for fair n lovely cream. I Wonder where this preference comes from and suspect it follows the British rule.

Guess there will always a few people who believe in the "Aryan Invasion" theory regardless of all evidence against it and the lack of evidence for it.

Also the idea of race as understood here is also bunk. Read this statement from the American Anthropological Association.

the progress of South India was not a fluke.

Maybe so, but South Indians aren't immune to the whole fair skin thing. I've heard relatives of mine make comments like "oh, that girl would be so pretty, if only she wasn't so dark." As a whole, I think South Asians are really caught up in being as light-skinned as possible.

Macaca power!

And another

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_Oberon

And yet another, although this one can have the full benefit of his claim to a Persian heritage with my blessings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatollah_Khomeini

smells kind of like the identity crises suffered amongst all types of pakistani people and other south asian muslims. if it's not the "indus valley civilization" argument that proves that pakistan was naturally never a part of the indian subcontinent, no one from pakistan knows where their family really comes from!

they are either pathan and born well south of the durand line but claim to be afghan or they truly are central asian with family from the fomer soviet union, and are not "desi" because of their secret their mughal blood, explaining the complexion of their one light-skinned daughter, or their families are kashmiri and don't belong to any of the unpure stinky lands of india or pakistan. anyone whos ever met a kashmiri will never hear the end from them about how magical their green eyed blood is and how they consider it an insult to be lumped with the rest of us. and of course let's not forget the dudes who claim their actual ancestry is arab and call their friends habibi and grow their beards down to their knees. and the most convoluted comes when these claimants tangle with each other, playing the "he's from peshawar/multan/dera ghazi khan/muzzafarabad/srinagar/delhi/mumbai he's not a true pathan/kashmiri/mughal/sheikh/bohra he's just faking it!" HE IS NOT A TRUE PATHAN! no one's pure enough or has foreign enough roots for anyone, even members of the same family! then when the argument starts going downhill, the pure exotic foreigner will claim not to understand urdu or hindi because their parents only speak some obscure/dead language at home which is the exclusive domain of the true blood and not the wannabes, even though every time you've been to their house, that's the only language you've ever heard spoken. the kids born in the us or the uk then compound the nuttiness of this senseless mystical pride, being removed from the magical land of fantasia and living in what they perceive as a cheap, materialistic place like the west.

I can say all of this, because my family is pathan/kashmiri/bohra/arab/mughal all together! my mom claims a different ethnic background depending on our company. and when i call her out on it she will stick to her guns about our ancestors of the week like she was defending her izzat! you will find this phenomena so pervasively, that if you were to take the word of every claimant, you would think that there never was an indigenous population in the subcontinent!

But historically, there was a Scythian culture and people, they were not 'dirt farmers', they actually had a lot of impressive cultural and military accomplishments, and they did have a presence in northern India, and probably did form some percent of some people's ancestries, as well as left some degree of cultural imprint.

don't lecture me on history, please. i've read herodotus and other ancient sources, i know who and what the scythians were perceived to be, not the half-baked conflations which i see on occasion on SM. and when they 'settled' of course they were dirt farmers. that's what most people's ancestors were (though the more successful dirt farmers, until the modern age the lower classes tended not to reproduce themselves so that the lower classes of the future descended from the downwardly mobile upper elements).

your muslim brother, there is a non-trivial central asian and west asian ancestral load in the typical north indian muslim, probably around 5% (this is right now on the border of the tests to detect these sorts of admixtures). i'm excluding pathans here, who are pretty much central/west asian as opposed to south asian. of course muslims emphasize 1 part out of 20, instead of the 19 parts out of 20. the same logic applies to the scythian punjabi jatts. yes, one can find genetic signatures that one can attribute to iranian speaking nomands, 'scythians,' but they are trivial in comparison to the 'dumpy' majority of their ancestry which is like most south asians. of course, don't take my word for it. check out this article, Low Levels of Genetic Divergence across Geographically and Linguistically Diverse Populations from India. have a problem with decrypting statistical genetics? no problem, look at this chart: http://genetics.plosjournals.org/archive/1553-7404/2/12/figure/10.1371_journal.pgen.0020215.g002-L.jpg . just follow the colors.

your muslim brother: that was hilarious. The kerala("syrian"/malankara)-christian version of this is "our ancestors were brahmin/jewish before they converted to christianity". Every ethnic/religious community in India has some version of it.

I didn't realize that in the original posting (#86) "Scyth" had added links to his photos.

http://tallguy6ft4in.photosite.com/album2/0522070755.html

Just as I thought, this deluded nutjob does not look white at all. You can see a number of delusional "aryan" brahmins and "scythian" jatts trying to jump on the white bandwagon at white supremacist sites like Stormfront. Once they are stupid enough to post their pictures they are laughed at and kicked to the non-white section of the forum.

His attempt to look macho is so fake :) Combine his baseless racial supremacist fantasies and his obsession with guns and you have a potential spree shooting psychopath here.

This Scythian bullshit is brought upon by the same people who are still shouting for Khalistan.

I suspect that pakistanis seeking revenge for Bangladesh have led these khalistani fools by the nose with this punjabi Saka/Scythian racial brotherhood nonsense.

i'm 5' 7.5"--the brahmanically ordained and most divine height for males.

I'm browner than Monica Goodling's nose at a televangelist fundraiser for the Federalist Society.

I spit cyanide capsules at captors and file frivolous lawsuits against fast-food companies.

If given a roti stand and an endless supply of bidis, no american will be able to distinguish my swarthy face from another in Chennai.

My great-great-great-grandfather on my uncle's, grandmother's, great-aunt's side was the feared, bloodthirsty king Parajasingham who ate North Indians for breakfast and shat colonialists at supper.

obviously the Dravidian must be superior. Look at the captain of the damn Indian cricket team for ethnics sake!!!!

The kerala("syrian"/malankara)-christian version of this is "our ancestors were brahmin/jewish before they converted to christianity". Every ethnic/religious community in India has some version of it.

the daudi bohra ismailis do the same thing. the most likely reality is that they were converted out of the vaishya castes, but a lot of them continue to assert brahmin ancestry (though some groups of ismailis, like the khojas, might have been brahmin). interestingly, the loudest ones claiming brahmin ancestry do so to emphasize that that explains the regressive and conservative nature of the culture, though the suspicion of my bohra friends is that is simply a mask for trying to disassociate themselves from grubby mercentile origins (these progressives tend to be professionals).

cite for the previous assertion: Mullahs on the Mainframe: Islam and Modernity Among the Daudi Bohras.

p.s. also, this isn't a brown only issue. in the 19th century english chauvinists regularly asserted the superiority of the germanic anglo-saxon race to the celts, in particular the irish. there's a problem with this narrative: a combination of historical and genetic evidence suggests that the german settlers were a minority overlay, with a possibility of parity only in east anglia. so you had a situation where english supremacists were justifying their superiority by being german when i turns out that they're, on average, more non-german than german. Saxons, Vikings, and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland is a good source on this topic.

You can see a number of delusional "aryan" brahmins and "scythian" jatts trying to jump on the white bandwagon at white supremacist sites like Stormfront. Once they are stupid enough to post their pictures they are laughed at and kicked to the non-white section of the forum.

If true, that's the funniest (and almost the most disturbing) thing I've read in ages.

If true, that's the funniest (and almost the most disturbing) thing I've read in ages.

i don't know about posting pictures, but i've seen them before too. they come up on google searches for indian genetics related stuff.

It's not just Indian's. South American's think that the lighter skinned population is more attractive then the darker skinned population.

There is always talk about how good looking Brazilian women are, but when ever you see one modeling for Victoria Secret or whatever they always look white. Turn on the Spanish channels and you almost never see dark skinned people, and trust me I watch them alot.

look at all of the popular latino people.. Ricky Martin, J-Lo, Shakira, Paulino Rubio, Gloria Estavan, Fat Joe, Gael Garcia, Salma Hayek etc. They all are light skinned. Name one popular dark skinned latino?

This isnt something isolated in one area of the world, it is everywhere. Maybe it is something inherent? Either way, live your life and be happy.

also, this isn't a brown only issue.

Yes; my iranian friend told me of an acquaintance of his who went up to this german girl who was dating an iranian and said that he approved of their match as they were both aryan (!). The german girl was appropriately horrified. So the iranian version of this is apparently something like "we're not like you barbaric arabs, we're aryan".

Ricky Martin, J-Lo, Shakira, Paulino Rubio, Gloria Estavan, Fat Joe, Gael Garcia, Salma Hayek etc. They all are light skinned.

you need to qualify that "light" is population normed. many of those people are quite dark in most european contexts. as are "light skinned" south asians or middle easteners. most light-skinned bollywood starts would be "dark and sultry" in western film. and yes, there is a lot of racism in latin america (on reason hugo chavez is popular is he he appeals in a racial language to the mestizo and mulatto lower classes from which he came in venezuela). but stuff like this: but when ever you see one modeling for Victoria Secret or whatever they always look white. really weakens your case. don't get greedy, adrian lima is a VS model and brazilian who is obviously (and acknowledges herself) mixed-race:
http://www.designpage.com.au/images/Adrian-Lima2.jpg

part of why the fairer-is-better complex is so pervasive worldwide is because of its socio-economic connotations - fair means you (and your ancestors) did not have to spend too much time working outdoors, which is usually required of "menial" or "labouring" jobs. thus, fair skin = prestige related to a higher socio-economic status in society. now, things are different - many people have just been conditioned to prefer fair skin, but i think this socio-economic divide explains the origin of the preference, at least in some parts of the world.

So the iranian version of this is apparently something like "we're not like you barbaric arabs, we're aryan".

the shah really promoted this. the force change of the official name to iran from persia was part of this (yes, it was always called iran too).

many people have just been conditioned to prefer fair skin, but i think this socio-economic divide explains the origin of the preference, at least in some parts of the world.

yes. peter frost's fair women and dark men is a good source book for anyone interested in the topic. a big counter argument though is "tall dark and handsome." herakles were "black skinned" because of how much time he spent outdoors doing manly things. in european culture the fact that men had a martial ideal meant that darkness was sometimes associated with vigor. on a physiological level within a population women are about 5-10% lighter skinned than men, and women with higher estrogen levels tend to be lighter, all things controlled (younger women are lighter than darker ones). for men, those with a lot of testosterone tend to be darker. in fact, you can take the same face and use a computer to make it lighter and darker, and subjects tend to assume that the light one is female and the dark one male.

don't lecture me on history, please. i've read herodotus and other ancient sources, i know who and what the scythians were perceived to be, not the half-baked conflations which i see on occasion on SM.

OK, so then I'm sure you realise there was a lot more to their culture than just being 'dirt farmers'. And my comment wasn't aimed specifically at you. Anyway, you and I have never exchanged harsh words, and if that's the direction you want to go in now, I'll have no part of it. Easier (and more pleasant) to just lurk, in that case.

razib:

you need to qualify that "light" is population normed

Well, I thought this whole subject was about that. As light as some Indians are, no one will ever think that they are polish or something.

When I look at Gizelle Buchan, or whatever her name is, I dont immediatly associate her with tribes in the Rain Forest of Brazil. If you want, go here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brazilians#Female, and tell me how many of these models are black or even look like Brazialian "Indians"

And in the case of Adrina Lima, look at Pele, who is blacker then black and brazilian then look at Adrina Lima and you will get your answer to what is "Light skinned"

Razib,

considering that genetic study that you cited was admittedly done on indian-americans, rather than the gen pop in India, are there any resources to point to differences in skeletal muscle potential between ethnic groups or perhaps supposed ethnic groups in South Asia?

this scythian fellow seems to place a good deal of pride in the fact that he is heavier and taller (partly by virtue of height) than the 'grumpy' ones who are short and of inferior stature.

When I look at Gizelle Buchan, or whatever her name is

her parents are german from the south of brazil where that is common (a few towns still are mostly german speaking).

And in the case of Adrina Lima, look at Pele, who is blacker then black and brazilian then look at Adrina Lima and you will get your answer to what is "Light skinned"

what are you talking about? she's mixed-race. she's not a xuxa.

this scythian fellow seems to place a good deal of pride in the fact that he is heavier and taller (partly by virtue of height) than the 'grumpy' ones who are short and of inferior stature.

you can look in books.google.com to confirm, but northwest indians are taller and more robust in build from what i know. east and southern indians are smaller and slimmer. some of these trends follow climate pretty closely. northwest indians are also lighter and more middle eastern/central asian looking. the general direction of his assertions was correct, though the magnitude was pretty laughable (a whiter looking brown is still brown, at the end of the day).

Amitabh wrote:

my comment wasn't aimed specifically at you. Anyway, you and I have never exchanged harsh words, and if that's the direction you want to go in now, I'll have no part of it. Easier (and more pleasant) to just lurk, in that case.

And I would hate if my post changed that-- you and Razib are both part of why our discussions are worth reading. Everyone, Scythian or not, breathe. :)

Amitabh, I meant to write it earlier, but I wanted to reach out to you and make sure you knew that this wasn't in any way aimed at you; I didn't even think of you when I wrote it. I know you are fiercely proud of who you are and you are passionate about not forgetting one's roots, I'm glad no one here has conflated that with the...comment...which inspired this.

Now stop considering lurking!

His attempt to look macho is so fake :) Combine his baseless racial supremacist fantasies and his obsession with guns and you have a potential spree shooting psychopath here.

His multiple pictures of guns did freak me out a little. It also seems that he's soooo pumped up about something to which he made no contribution - maybe he has nothing else to base his self-esteem on? Maybe he sucks at school, cricket, and spelling.

yeah, my heritage is supposedly fairly dravidian (lankan tamil) but with a tweaked diet and hellacious lifting program i've managed to more than round out.

there are a lot of half-baked theories in the body-building world, even regarding specific exercises with different benefits for different racial groups, but there was very little regarding south asians as there isn't exactly a horde of them stomping down the doors at Muscle & Fitness magazine.

I'm just wondering whether as someone with my background, am I just running into a genetic wall with the Scythian fellow laughing maniacally behind it?

OK, so then I'm sure you realise there was a lot more to their culture than just being 'dirt farmers'.

look, let me clarify. the scythians were bad asses. that being said, why did they invade so many lands? quite often it was famine driving them. they weren't necessarily an affluent people, except when they could enter into rentier relations with enserfed farming populations (as in the ukraine). the mongols conquered most of eurasia, but in the generation of genghis khan's grandfather they were mocked as marginal rat eaters (they did hunter-gathering when their flocks couldn't suppor them). so yeah, be proud if you are descended from the great khan, but remember that your ancestors ate rats. it is normal to have ethnic pride, and a lot of people engage in that. but, it is important to remember that

a) we are all descended from slaves & lords

b) we descended mostly from farmers

c) greatness is often followed by debasement

just like a brown friend of mine was shocked when i told him that the early indian civilization was centered on bihar.

there are a lot of half-baked theories in the body-building world, even regarding specific exercises with different benefits for different racial groups, but there was very little regarding south asians as there isn't exactly a horde of them stomping down the doors at Muscle & Fitness magazine.

well, i had a friend who did some literature searches on this. south asian samples exhibit a tendency toward hyperflexibility. these were drawn from pakistani british samples, but i think the generalization holds. i don't know much about within south asian groups differences on this, but i don't think the mean size difference correlates with any difference in body fat percentage. the genetics seems to suggest there was some recent selection for musculature related characters in africans, but that's all i know.

Maybe he sucks at school, cricket, and spelling

;)

Well, I thought this whole subject was about that. As light as some Indians are, no one will ever think that they are polish or something

Yes, it's just interesting how people's race and ethnicity changes depending on the cultural/socioeconomic/geographic context. I've visited Ireland so many times and right now there's an influx of Eastern Europeans - and they are considered to be darker...but to my eye they all look alike; There did seem to me more "pink" people in Ireland, and they would consider Aishwarya a beautiful darker person (at least according to my Irish friends) and then of course in India she is considered so light skin. There's this interesting ethnography I read, "contesting cultures", which studies mostly the South Asians in Southall England--- and shows how people pick and choose which part of their "heritage" they will use as their identity depending on the context.

An example of this was a women's organization, called something like Southall Black sisters. The organization was started by South Asians, who identified themselves according to socioeconomic and political structures in Southall and they called themselves "black". I think Diletente has mentioned this.

Lighter isnt always considered better looking. Else albinos would be supermodels in every country.

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/Immunology/Students/Spring2003/Leese/albino.gif

The ancient greeks when they were great saw their own complexion, which they pegged as between that of the asiatics and the northern european barbarians, as the ideal. The arabs when they were dominant saw their complexion, darker than the greeks but lighter than africans, similarly. Chinese see golden skin as the ideal and white europeans are called "white ghosts". And so on.

Desis, africans, filipinos, native americans etc being conquered and humiliated for so long by lighter-skinned races have little such racial pride left. In the distant past indians must have seen their dark skin as beautiful as revealed in the Puranas where the heroes and heroines such as Rama, Krishna, Draupadi etc are described as very dark-skinned and handsome/beautiful. Shyama sundara = black and beautiful, for example.

Desis, africans, filipinos, native americans etc being conquered and humiliated for so long by lighter-skinned races have little such racial pride left. In the distant past indians must have seen their dark skin as beautiful as revealed in the Puranas where the heroes and heroines such as Rama, Krishna, Draupadi etc are described as very dark-skinned and handsome/beautiful. Shyama sundara = black and beautiful, for example.

Right, I think if the Africans have conquered the rest of the world and made the rest lick their a**es, then we would be seeing a clamour for blackness creams now.

:-)