Facebook (yeah, that’s just creepy)

Seriously, what kind of perv over 24 would join Facebook?

totally off-subject but that lemon drops recipe looks great!

what cuties! I'm glad you reprinted it b/c I missed the pic the first time you had it on SM - makes me want to have a kid now.

Seriously, what kind of perv over 24 would join Facebook?

This one, or this one? :)

HA. hilarious. a guidline to not allow your racism to bubble over into your words. But I think the reps have been trying this type of advice for years: That is, be racist, but don't tell anyone.

Yeah I found it fascinating that he had to spell out not to make rascist jokes, but not surprising.

This is almost as good as Hillary spotting Gandhi's gas station down in St. Louis!

Yep, HMF. Haven't things like "eliminating voter fraud", strategic location of polling booths to make it more difficult for blacks to vote, and many other tactical moves been an integral part of republican party strategy? Not to mention ads like the one Bob Corker ran against Harold Ford, or Bush 2000 ran against McCain 1.0 ("Oh my god, he's got a mulatto baby").

It's worked well for them, only now, they have a chance of getting caught even when they're just among friends (like Trent Lott with Thurmond - although I guess Lott is back now that racism has been ended in the US, or Allen with his cheering and laughing Virginia crowd). Well, I'm sure evolution will select for better chameleons, that's all.

Well, what's good for the goose is also good for the Hillary and the Joe Biden, I guess.

Well, what's good for the goose is also good for the Hillary and the Joe Biden, I guess.

hema, do you really believe that? What killed Allen was not his calling Siddhart macaca, but the fact that it amplified and provided concrete evidence of a 40 year long history of racism.

Not at all similar to when Hillary or Biden make a bad joke about Gandhi or Dunkin' Donuts. The crime there is not against color, it is against humor. Although, I'd be much happier if Hillary stopped doing the drawl in Southern churches...

what cuties! I'm glad you reprinted it b/c I missed the pic the first time you had it on SM - makes me want to have a kid now.

i almost agree. i'm looking into some non-commital form of adoption - maybe renting? (btw, that is completely a joke - i am a big champion of adoption, for real). those kids are adorable. and may i add, very dravidian-looking.

this is a rather stupid question, but SM is the first place where i have heard macaca being used on a regular basis, mostly in abhi's posts. however, allen's use of the word, obviously, improper. does macaca occupy the same place in desi society as n----r in AA society? sorry, but i am always late in getting down with the lingo, desi or otherwise.

SM is the first place where i have heard macaca being used on a regular basis

Oh, my parents called me maccu long before that!

hema, do you really believe that?

Rahul, no. My point is really that while bigots like Allen do ultimately experience some sort of backlash, people like Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden don't seem to experience a similar sort of desi backlash. Part of that is because of what you said already: there isn't necessarily a documented history of bigotry with Clinton and Biden.

On the other hand, their glib pronouncements on cab drivers and convenience store owners shows that they're just as capable of engaging in unnecessary racial/ethnic stereotyping as anyone else. It's only a short drive to macaca-ville, if you will.

Thanks for the shout, ANNA!

does macaca occupy the same place in desi society as n----r in AA society? sorry, but i am always late in getting down with the lingo, desi or otherwise.

no, not even close. And I keep saying that when people ask this question, they usually end up answering it themselves. Why do they censor the n-word (by saying thingsl ike 'the N-word') and not the "comparison word" ?

HMF, it's funny you mention that test. There was an NPR program a couple of days ago on the 40th anniversary of the Loving decision, and covered current white-black interracial couples in Virginia. They reported on an interview with the white wife of one such couple, and said that, "People in her town called her wigger, and I'm guessing you know what that means.". I found that extremely amusing.

It's only a short drive to macaca-ville

Not if you have a Madras auto driver on the meter, and you're new in town! :)

No self-respecting Madras auto driver is ever on the meter anymore, so you must be new in town! :)

I reread my comment on #16 (because I do such things), and realized that I could clarify: I found NPR's tiptoeing amusing, not the abuses.

I know, hema. It completely screws up their erstwhile incentive structure to give you an unguided tour around town.

well, at least we're taking responsibility instead of suppressing the free speech of the other side.

Yeah I found it fascinating that he had to spell out not to make rascist jokes, but not surprising.

where is this?

Yep, HMF. Haven't things like "eliminating voter fraud",

"you will get hurt"

HMF, i used that comparison only because AAs use it amongst themselves jokingly (and otherwise) but it's off-limits to all non-AAs. re self-censoring, i err on the side of caution when it comes to other cultures, for exactly the reason i stated above. though, i have to say, after a chappelle-show marathon, it took me days to stop thinking it.

i used that comparison only because AAs use it amongst themselves jokingly (and otherwise) but it's off-limits to all non-AAs.

The Daily Show, as usual, nails it here.

Personally, I don't subscribe to the notion of unmentionable words, but tend to think of statements as offensive/funny/silly in context. I also tend to be more forgiving of statements, if they are born from ignorance, rather than malice. For example, I get less upset about the Meiyang Chang Indian Idol fiasco than many other people on this board, I think.

(But that's different than deciding whether I use such words, because other people have different boundaries).

Rahul,

About the NPR tiptoeing:

"People in her town called her wigger, and I'm guessing you know what that means.".
Michelle Norris is the one who said it.
She's AA...

oka...where do i get my paws on one of those tees? i want me one for my little nik!

okay, not oka.

Interesting tidbit, diaboli #26. I didn't know that, but it's not surprising given the general unacceptability of the n-word in polite company.

the general unacceptability of the n-word in polite company.

unless it's their name

For me and other Indians who put up diaries and comments on liberal sites lie MYDD or DKOS, the problem I had with Allen's behavior went beyond the Macaca comment which was juvenile. It had to do with his "WELCOME TO VIRGINIA" comment to a guy who was more native to VA than Allen himself. But since he is not white, he is looked upon as not really American. To conservative republicans, it seems like the only real Americans are white Americans or sellout Uncle Toms(of all races, including Indians lke Dinesh) who have nothing to do with Massachusetts.

I always have a slight moment of hesitation when people ask me what my nationality is instead of what my ancestry or origin is. And this bothers me despite my move to India during my middle school years(due to some family situation). Imagine someone who was born and lived here all his or her life having to face a question phrased that way all the time.

I always have a slight moment of hesitation when people ask me what my nationality is instead of what my ancestry or origin is

people specifically ask you what your nationality is? people always ask me where i'm from - and most of the time they mean ancestry. i always say NY - since that's the sort of answer they would expect if they're asking a 'real' american.

That skit was hilarious, and Chappelle is pure genius. Makes me snigger every time!

ak, it varies. In the south, that was asked more of me compared to cities in the north. And this was more common in the 80s. And I have noticed that was asked of some of my Indian American friends too. I learned not to get bothered by it if someone still asks me. I just reply using the word Indian origin. Anyway, with the world getting so interconnected, I am not getting that attached to the term anyway.

unacceptability of the n-word in polite company.

The only non-commital form of adoption I can attest to is when your mom has a baby when you are your teens - like me! Had so much playing mom with my parttime adoptee - :)

To conservative republicans, it seems like the only real Americans are white Americans or sellout Uncle Toms(of all races, including Indians lke Dinesh) who have nothing to do with Massachusetts.

allan calls a desi macacca and implies he's not american. you call a them uncle tom and imply they're not desi. hello pot, meet kettle...you two have a lot in common.

allan calls a desi macacca and implies he's not american. you call a them uncle tom and imply they're not desi. hello pot, meet kettle...you two have a lot in common.

no actually that's quite wrong. If you read his comment he refered to Dinesh D'Souza (but if he didn't and you know who he was referring to, please let me know). D'Souza, in his book regarding the end of racism, devoted a large part of it to making the point that there is a hierarchy of cultures (European #1, everyone else in descending order) and that it is okay to recognize (although not for him, in a public manner, since he would instantly be branded a bigoted fool) this 'fact' in any debate.

Leaving aside the rather problematic use of the word 'culture' to refer to practices not borne of a single source but many, one can reasonably make the assumption that he, like many noble and dignified racists before him, believes that white people are more worthy than brown people who are more worthy than black people and so on...

no actually that's quite wrong. If you read his comment he refered to Dinesh D'Souza

granted he named dd, but was clearly referring to a group of people of whom dd is just a part:

sellout Uncle Toms(of all races, including Indians lke Dinesh)

i see no reason why condi rice, clarence thomas, or michael steele would not fit this bill. do conservative american not consider them american? perhaps Pravin can name names.

D'Souza, in his book regarding the end of racism, devoted a large part of it to making the point that there is a hierarchy of cultures (European #1, everyone else in descending order) and that it is okay to recognize (although not for him, in a public manner, since he would instantly be branded a bigoted fool) this 'fact' in any debate.

i haven't read the book, but i don't think believing in a hierarchy of cultures makes one racist or uncle tom, though it clearly intersects with racism (but hey, so does oppossing outsoucing and does that make kennedy anti-indian?). in fact, arguing cultural superiority to explain a freer or wealthier civilization would be a counter argument to racists, who would see these civilizations as proof of an innate racial superiority as opposed to social and governemntal constructions that can be grafted onto any race or society.

allan calls a desi macacca and implies he's not american. you call a them uncle tom and imply they're not desi. hello pot, meet kettle...you two have a lot in common.

Furthermore, he wasn't necessarily questioning their desi-ness, he was stating the conservatives only care about them when they themselves deny their desiness, or the value of that collective experience, or downplay it in favor of a "we're all equal in the eyes of this perfect American society" attitude.

Furthermore, he wasn't necessarily questioning their desi-ness, he was stating the conservatives only care about them when they themselves deny their desiness, or the value of that collective experience, or downplay it in favor of a "we're all equal in the eyes of this perfect American society" attitude.

first of all, pravin used the term "uncle tom" which in this context referred to black conservatives (of whom he declined to name). only then does he bring in the other races ("of all races") and only after that does he mention brother dinish: "including Indians lke Dinesh"

in a world where liberal cartoonist pat oliphant has portrayed condi rice as a big lipped parrot, where gen powell is called a house nigger, and where clarance thomas was subjected to a high tech lynching...i call out pravin on his racism, first aimed at blacks, secondly aimed at indians who stray off his liberal plantantion.

maybe pravin just got carried away and didn't think it thru, but that was as racist as anything allan said.

in fact, arguing cultural superiority to explain a freer or wealthier civilization would be a counter argument to racists, who would see these civilizations as proof of an innate racial superiority as opposed to social and governemntal constructions that can be grafted onto any race or society.

Ok, I read this three times, but I'm still scratching my head. How is this a counter argument to racists? If I understand you correctly, you're saying that cultural superiority is completely distinct from racial superiority, and I don't think that's actually true...and neither is it the point that D'Souza is making.

When I meant Uncle Tom, I was being a little sloppy with the wordplay. It did not mean that if you adopted a lot of white culture(as quite a few of us tend to do, including yours truly when it comes to music, accent, etc.) , you are an automatic Uncle Tom. A black person who speaks with what is known as a "white" accent is not an Uncle Tom in my book. FOr me, Judge Clarence THomas is an Uncle Tom, but while I lost a lot of respect for Condi Rice, I do not think she is an Uncle Tom. It's a pretty loaded word to use and I probably should have used it more carefully. But someone like Dinesh is too smart to write some of the nonsensical stuff I see from him. I just think he and the Malkins finds it easy to ingratiate themselves to the conservative white establishment.

Someone like the guy from Louisiana - BObby Jindal is an Uncle Tom in my book. And it has nothing to do with the way he lives his personal life. Hell, I do not go to Indian gatherings. So who am I to judge based on where one wants to congregate. But I will not be embarassed by my origin. Jindal seems to have no problem using his Indian network to get funds, but seems to take the trouble to distance himself from Indian stuff (everything from his name change to his non reference to Indians when it comes to replying to a question on diversity) a little too easily. And while he may have a legitimate reason to convert to Christianity, I wonder if it was more of a way to assimilate than any true conviction. (I am an athiest, so I could care less what religion a person follows).

Anyway, my main point is quite a few white people of Allen's ilk have this idea of who are the real americans. They glorify American values while bashing Massachusetts liberals at the same time as if their values are not really American. They see an Indian American and see an Indian. This is obviously a generalization and there are many exceptions, of course.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that cultural superiority is completely distinct from racial superiority, and I don't think that's actually true...and neither is it the point that D'Souza is making.

actually i said they intersect, but i can easily see how one can thread carefully and make the cultural superiority argument without crossing into racism. ie, japan is superior to the sudan not becouse of any genetic superiority of the japanese, but becuase of historical circumstance they have embraced a form of liberal democracy.

i haven't read the book,

...but I know in my heart of hearts that dinesh d'souza isn't a blatant racist because he's such a 'free-thinker' he's stuffed literally half of his torso up Reagan's dead rectum.

read the book! Be a witness to your swelling pride as Dinesh tells you how Mumbai would've made him a boring, mediocre, prospect-less, pan-Indian failure, doomed to wallow in the illiberal, anti-modern clutches of his cognitively limited and short-sighted family for an eternity.

In fact, I challenge anyone to read his book and see if you winkle out any detail that would point to his not being wiling to sit have a beer with these folks or with this charming fellow

All he wants is to be left alone with his co-ethnics. Is that so racist? I mean, really...

Anyway, my main point is quite a few white people of Allen's ilk have this idea of who are the real americans. They glorify American values while bashing Massachusetts liberals at the same time as if their values are not really American.

here's a thought pravin. allen and his ilk see Massachusetts liberals the same way you and your ilk see black conservatives. one as a traitor to their country, the other as a traitor to their race.

now this is complicated by the fact that real traitors of either kind do exist. by the mccarthyists like to lower the bar far enough to swipe up some innocent people in order to grind their political axe. and when that happens the allens of the world become themselves unamerican and the pravins become racists, ironically.

hema 42

and neither is it the point that D'Souza is making

it is one of the arguments that he makes in the book but it is also a necessary precondition for achieving his vision of an 'end to racism.'

A bit late to the N-word argument, but this was a hilarious take on the issue.

the white wife clearly said she was called a "fucking nigger lover" the only word that was censored was "fucking"

Hmm, totally don't remember that. I didn't listen to the full story as I got out of the car, so I don't know if I didn't notice it or this was after I was done listening.

As for the classical music thing, it is totally ridiculous!

Manju, B.S. on your reply. I never said every black conservative is a sellout. I made a differentiation between Clarence THomas and Condi Rice as an example. I didn't think Rice was an "Uncle Tom" because I feel like she would not sell out her fellow blacks. My problem with Rice is purely political. My problem with her was that she did a terrible job as the rest of the Bushies. My problem with Clarence is he reaped the benefits of Affirmative Action but would not stand up for the rights of other blacks to benefit from it.

I am actually a libertarian and share some ideas with conservatives. What Allen did was a typical powerplay you see in quite a few white folks in power, especially of his kind. The Welcome to VA was a lot more troubling to me than the Macaca comment. The guy was looking at a single non white guy in his presence and used the power of his numbers and his position to make him feel like he was somehow not someone who quite belongs here as the right kind of people. ANd if you really want to think about it, I wonder if they saw Dinesh D Souza on the street, and would have asked him the same kind of question if they had no idea what his viewpoints were.

My problem with Clarence is he reaped the benefits of Affirmative Action but would not stand up for the rights of other blacks to benefit from it.

well if a white man benefited from state sponsored discrimination, would you doubt his authenticity if he turned around later and tried to outlaw such actions? you can question clarence thomas' judgement without bringing his race into question.

My problem with Clarence is he reaped the benefits of Affirmative Action but would not stand up for the rights of other blacks to benefit from it.

My problem with Clarence Thomas is that he is a damn fool. He doesnt participate in oral arguments and he is generally not a very bright guy.

He doesnt participate in oral arguments and he is generally not a very bright guy.

Heh! Give him some credit, ACfd...he's bright enough to ride Scalia's coattails at least! :)

in a world where liberal cartoonist pat oliphant has portrayed condi rice as a big lipped parrot, where "gen "powell is called a house nigger, and where clarance thomas was subjected to a high tech lynching...i call out pravin on his racism, first aimed at blacks, secondly aimed at indians who stray off his liberal plantantion"

High tech lynching? WTF are you talking about? This is what cartoonists do. If you want equal treatment than this is it. He got the same treatment as a shit-load of other politicians who somehow lost the support and protection of their puppet-masters for a while. If they (press, Congress) had ignored Anita's complaints, there would be accusations of ignoring sexual harrassment of black women. He ended up no worse than any of the others, and by the way he is a sleaze ball, like so many of the others. Blackness doesn't confer innocence.
Carciatures exaggerate characteristics. That is what they do. If you're sensitive about certain characteristics, then that's what you see. That's why caricatures of women seem particularly nasty--women are so sensitive about noses or whatever. In the case of women it's because looks are such a sore point, more than for men. In the case of non-majority groups, physical characteristics are a sensitive point because they highlight differences. ALL peoples' features are exaggerated in cartoon caricatures.
As for Rice, the worse insults I ever read applied to her, or to blacks in general, were in Chinese newspapers. They were incredibly insulting, and in my opinion, unprintable. I even felt sorry for her and I consider everybody in this administration to be the essence of evil.

Heh! Give him some credit, ACfd...he's bright enough to ride Scalia's coattails at least! :)

True. Thats a commonly held belief but I did hear someone make the argument that supposedly Thomas does not follow Scalia and is actually leading Scalia. It was very late at night on C-Span. I cant remember the name of the guy who was making this argument but he had an interesting argument nevertheless.

I tend to agree with the notion that Thomas is Scalia's lackey. The only redeeming quality of Thomas is that he makes otherwise lowly legal grunts like me feel good about the fact that I might be smarter than a Supreme Court Justice.

first of all, pravin used the term "uncle tom" which in this context referred to black conservatives (of whom he declined to name). only then does he bring in the other races ("of all races") and only after that does he mention brother dinish: "including Indians lke Dinesh"

Not exactly. Uncle tom is a statement on behavior, and action, something that can be changed. It's not an essence of being. Sidarth was called macaca, not because he pointed a camera at Allen, but because his skin was darker than an average European immigrant.

If "brother" Dinesh Dsouza was holding the camera, he would have been called macaca all the same, irrespective of his bullshit political viewpoints, and selective reading of history.

True. Thats a commonly held belief but I did hear someone make the argument that supposedly Thomas does not follow Scalia and is actually leading Scalia.

I've heard that too, and from a number of different sources (including one of my former law school professors who clerked for Thomas). I think it's based on the idea that Thomas is actually a much more "faithful" textualist than Scalia, the latter sometimes allowing outcomes to drive interpretation.

The only redeeming quality of Thomas is that he makes otherwise lowly legal grunts like me feel good about the fact that I might be smarter than a Supreme Court Justice.

In that case, I lament the fact that Harriet Miers never made it to the bench.

My problem with Clarence Thomas is that he is a damn fool. He doesnt participate in oral arguments and he is generally not a very bright guy.

sounds like you're making an argument against affirmative action

Carciatures exaggerate characteristics. That is what they do.

well he exaggerated a feature that's stereotypical to blacks but not condi in particular (her lips aren't particularly big). add to that she's a parrot, controlled by bush. but for some reason cheney and rummy are bush's puppet masters. why?

Not exactly. Uncle tom is a statement on behavior, and action, something that can be changed.

it is a behaviour, but it betrays the racist belief that blacks have a certain authentic behaviour or thought process. it denies them the diversity inherent in being human.

this is the true white privilege. They are allowed to transcend race and embrace any political ideology without anyone accusing them of self-hatred.

when you can't see someone as an individual but only a representative of their race, i call bullshit.

Manju says in response to Al Chutiya "sounds like you're making an argument against affirmative action"

Affirmative Action doesn't mean one can guarantee a fool won't get through to the next level just as merit based hiring still leads to dummies being hired at big companies without any need for Affirm. Action. Many Indians get into medicine over here because of the role models we have in our community. But a lot of Indians in India do not get into medicine if you check out the percentages. Everyone has their own rationale for AA. Mine is not necessarily the same as others. Mine is part reparations, partly to make up for crappy schools, partly to provide role models in a segmen of the population to encourage future generations of that segment, partly to make up for lack of adequate networking opportunities. It is not in the country's interest to have a permanent underclass.

Sure, there will be inefficiencies in the short term, but it is for a long term payoff. Goodling and her kind in the Bush Justice Department are not exactly highly qualified personnel. THe Bushies hired a bunch of people from Pat RObertson's law university. So there are a lot of hiring decisions that are made without any consideration to merit.

Oh please , give me a break manju. When we bash Condi Rice, it's not because she is a conservative black person. I bash her because she has done a terrible job. Same with Dinesh D Souza. Ramesh Ponnuru really made a fool of himself with his last book and it's ridiculous title, but I found him a little more reasonable. If these guys wrote like PJ o Rourke , then I wouldn't care what race they were.

I have no use even for people like that female writer from India (forget her name, all of a sudden, starts with an A) who keeps bashing western powers and doesn't balance it out with criticizing some of the despots in the eastern regions, especially former communist countries.

FOr the record, I am the type who believes in school choice and death penalty. You are hardly dealing with bleeding heart liberal stereotypes here.

well he exaggerated a feature that's stereotypical to blacks but not condi in particular

condi does have spectacular legs though. oliphant could've portrayed her as a long legged giraffe or something. but he chose big lipped parrot, to emphasize her blackness and the stereotypical subservience of the house n----r.

Oh please , give me a break manju. When we bash Condi Rice, it's not because she is a conservative black person. I bash her because she has done a terrible job.

i never criticized you for bashing rice. bash way.

I haven't read the book but it was Jan Crawford Greenburg on C-SPAN and her book was 'Supreme Conflict: The Inside Story of the Struggle for Control of the United States Supreme Court)'

That’s not the standard storyline. Immediately upon his arrival at the court, Justice Thomas was savaged by court-watchers as Antonin Scalia’s dutiful apprentice, blindly following his mentor’s lead. It’s a grossly inaccurate portrayal, imbued with politically incorrect innuendo, as documents and notes from Justice Thomas’s very first days on the court conclusively show. Far from being a Scalia lackey, the rookie jurist made clear to the other justices that he was willing to be the solo dissenter, sending a strong signal that he would not moderate his opinions for the sake of comity. By his second week on the bench, he was staking out bold positions in the private conferences where justices vote on cases. If either justice changed his mind to side with the other that year, it was Justice Scalia joining Justice Thomas, not the other way around.

I never thought I would say this but I feel sorry for you Americans for lack of a great choice in 2008. I like John Edwards, but I'm afraid he won't be the Democratic choice in 2008. Funny for the 1st time here in Canada we finally have leader that we can be proud of.

Of course there is one option for 2008 that can save you country, but I'm afraid Lou "THE TRUTH" Dobbs won't be running in 2008.

sorry wrong topic

ak, I don't like macaca either. I think there was a huge long discussion about this. I don't think it's equivalent to n-- in its connotation and history of violence, but it is definitely racist. I guess in that way they're one and the same.

Manju, this is ridiculous. The phrase "Uncle Tom" does not mean a "traitor to one's race" or any of the other things that have been going back and forth. It has the same connotation as "house n--" from what I've heard. The critique underlying it is not that a person of color has conservative values. It is whether or not someone has decided to promote decisions that hurt people from the same (marginalized) community for their own personal or professional gain. It's like the ruler of a kingdom who sells his people as slaves to boost his own disposable income. There is an expectation that one should not continue to do harm to a group, especially if you have a history or familiarity with similar struggles. It is certainly not the same as Allen calling someone "macaca." In the context of the U.S. and the examples people have listed, both terms refer to people who promote a vision of a relatively exclusivist America that denigrates others and champions Anglo-American supremacy (in which being an "American" is generally equated with being white).

#68 Camille:

Camille, there are a number of problems here, but I will listen before I opine.

1) Do you really think that "desis" in the US are truly marginalized? Be careful about terminology-- do you mean desi people or desi culture? Is one of the two more acceptable than the other? Do you look at class similarly-- for example, would a desi taxi driver supporting a anti-union, rich desi libertarian a "class traitor"?

2) Is "Anglo-American supremacy" about "Anglo-American people" or "Anglo-American culture"? That is, is a desi who supports Samuel Huntington's ideas about American nationality an Uncle Tom?

Torpedo,

1. I think desis are definitely marginalized in the context of U.S. race relations, and that desi "culture" (however you want to define that in the diaspora) is both marginalized and fetishized. I am never called anyone a "race traitor" and would also not call someone a "class traitor." The purpose of using that term was to explain that calling someone an "Uncle Tom," while vicious, is not as simple as the juvenile, racist, and fascist (il)logic behind the phrase "race traitor."

That said, I don't expect people to agree with me, and certainly not Manju -- we are clearly sitting on different sides of an auditorium on issues of race. That said, I do not believe that calling someone a macaca (which reinforces the paradigm of white supremacy in the U.S.) is equivalent to calling someone an Uncle Tom (which criticizes an individual who chooses to further white supremacy at the expense of other members of his/her ethnic community).

2. When I say "Anglo American" supremacy I am specifically discussing the philosophical ideas behind white supremacy in the U.S., a supremacy that focuses on the WASP paradigm and only peripherally includes other "ethnic" whites (e.g. the Irish, Italians, Slavs). Before you get all up in arms, I would definitely recommend reading the discussion on whiteness that took place on a previous thread from last week.

The critique underlying it is not that a person of color has conservative values. It is whether or not someone has decided to promote decisions that hurt people from the same (marginalized) community for their own personal or professional gain.

So Nehru and his daughter, whose socialism and license raj enriched his caste at the expense of marginalized people was an uncle tom? Indain americans who oppose outsourcing and globalization are uncle toms? Is castro an uncle tom? why do the charges go only one way?

In the context of the U.S. and the examples people have listed, both terms refer to people who promote a vision of a relatively exclusivist America that denigrates others and champions Anglo-American supremacy

why are champions of free-market capitalism championing anglo-american supremacy but fabian socialists not? are marxists german supremacists? The values and politics that d'souza and thomas advocate has resulted in asian immigrants surpassing anglos by many metrics. with the rise china, india, and the pacific rim all partially due to conservative family values mated to free market politics and the "protestant" work ethic, i fail to see how thomas and d'souza can be call anglo-american supremacists, anymore than max weber could be considered an anti-catholic bigot.

i agree the phenomena of the uncle tom exists, but its being used today the way mccarthy used communism. old joe was profoundly unamerican, and some of the politics of authenticity, since it denies us the diversity of thought that whites take for granted, is profoundly racist.

diversity of thought

ah yes, that old canard. Would you let a convicted felon teach in the criminal justice department? Or a Marxist in the business school? Or a fellow who believes the UN to be largely unecessary as your ambassador to said useless institution?

The answer is obviously no. That kind of diversity is undesirable.

D'Souza and Thomas advocate 'pulling yourselves up by your own bootstraps' but don't supply the instructions on how to do so.

They believe that if only the godless, baby-killers on the left would stop glorifying gays, gender studies and science and start thinking about strict constructionist interpretations of the constitution, we'd be living in a utopian society.

have you read The End of Racism yet?

it is a behaviour, but it betrays the racist belief that blacks have a certain authentic behaviour or thought process. it denies them the diversity inherent in being human.

this is the true white privilege. They are allowed to transcend race and embrace any political ideology without anyone accusing them of self-hatred.

when you can't see someone as an individual but only a representative of their race, i call bullshit.

Not exactly again, this goes back to your entire "MLK was an integrationist!, he didn't believe in the black identity!" When in fact, the opposite is true. It's not a certain behavior that I claim minorities should all subscribe to, it's the neglect, dismissal, and downlpaying of a shared experience is the the behavior that I repudiate. Saying that 'blacks/indians/minorities" should be aware of a collective, shared experience in no way denies individuality, or human diversity. For someone to deny a shared racial experience (which MLK, Malcolm, Medgar Evers, , never ever suggested) is, in my view, not equivalent to saying they are solely represented by their race. Race is part of who you are, and given the history of this country, a shared experience exists (whether one chooses to pay attention to it or not) that cannot be denied.

White's cannot be accused of self-hatred, because there is no "self" to hate, in a racial sense. They can hate themselves for being short, tall, etc.. , but the white race is based on a concept of privilege.

That's like saying, "he was a father, but was deciding whether or not he had a child" - taken at face value (without metaphors, etc..) it makes no sense, by definition, being a father means you have a child.

Manju- I was quite surprised to see your name next to the comment that reads it is a behaviour, but it betrays the racist belief that blacks have a certain authentic behaviour or thought process. it denies them the diversity inherent in being human this is the true white privilege.They are allowed to transcend race and embrace any political ideology without anyone accusing them of self-hatred..I would very much agree with that comment. However on a different topic this same discussion of "Acting White/White Privilege" came up, and you stated

i've followed this debate, and in every instance i know of, the context has been "African American peer-culture." which i did not take to mean white kids enforcing a code on black kids.

"...Put differently, a black student with straight As is no more popular than a black student with a 2.9 GPA, but high-achieving whites are at the top of the popularity pyramid. also "For black and Hispanic students who attend private school, I find no evidence of a trade-off between popularity and achievement."

Three years ago I mentored/tutored young kids(6-14 yrs old) from a large housing projects---the real bad kind,not the ones you speak of with "hidden wealth"- in this one kids where justifiably afraid of being jumped on, or worse , for not joining a gang. This place was the definition of underachievement, drug/gun crime, single parent families, poverty of aspiration etc. In all my interactions with the students /parents/grandparents- I never head the term 'acting white'. For one ,there have been no "whites" to emulate in generations in this setting. No one[in the ghetto] talks like that.

You demonstrate that you are able to appreciate and articulate what "white privilege" is,than why not be mindful of it in all of its manifestation , not only when defending politicians etc you agree with. I don't see how it's in any person of color interest to continue to conflate race and or class/political ideology. I also think that the larger white and 'other' communities are complicit,if not active, in continuing the 'acting white' meme.

Being successful should not have to mean being white.

You demonstrate that you are able to appreciate and articulate what "white privilege"

I believe the demonstration was a tad facetious. He describes the "true white privilege" when whites can go "outside their race" and not be called "uncle toms" which, in a morbid round about way, is actually true - but not for the reasons he states, rather because there is no "outside their race"

I believe the demonstration was a tad facetious

You're probably right, I wasn't sure about all the 'wealth' he was talking about here either. But let's stop talking about him- he might think we actually pay attention to his nonsense no nonsense approach (smile)

i agree the phenomena of the uncle tom exists

Who are the current Uncle Toms in your opinion?

Manju- I was quite surprised to see your name next to the comment that reads it is a behaviour, but it betrays the racist belief that blacks have a certain authentic behaviour or thought process. it denies them the diversity inherent in being human this is the true white privilege.They are allowed to transcend race and embrace any political ideology without anyone accusing them of self-hatred..I would very much agree with that comment. However on a different topic this same discussion of "Acting White/White Privilege" came up, and you stated

i've followed this debate, and in every instance i know of, the context has been "African American peer-culture." which i did not take to mean white kids enforcing a code on black kids.

dilettante: i being consistent. as is apparent on this thread, it is blacks/browns that impose upon blacks/browns a code of authenticity, which often intersects with traditional racists notions like black academic underachievement or the much used of example of hip hop as the modern day minstrel show. this is especially disturbing in the political realm since it would deny non-whites the necessary pre-conditions (free-markets) for economic empowerment. i don't see the contradiction.

Who are the current Uncle Toms in your opinion?

maybe that Scythian fellow. any black/brown that supports aparthied. a jew who collaborated with the nazis. but a black man who opposes AA? no, that's a debatable subject and it is not at all obvious that AA benifts those to whom it is designed to benifit, anymore than socialism benifited the working class.

look, jesse jackson endores a lot of policies that i think keep blacks down and he enriches himself in the process, but i wouldn't call him an uncle tom.

BTW, there's a new biography out on Clarence Thomas. The NY Times review paints a far more complex and interesting picture of him than I had ever been aware of.

It's not a certain behavior that I claim minorities should all subscribe to, it's the neglect, dismissal, and downlpaying of a shared experience is the the behavior that I repudiate. Saying that 'blacks/indians/minorities" should be aware of a collective, shared experience in no way denies individuality, or human diversity.

then i don't see how thomas or D'souza are uncle toms since they don't deny a shared experiece but rather break from the mainstream on how to fix it. perhaps they don't see raciam as the major probem facing ethnic minorites in the US today, either do i, but this is a far cry from denying the past.

in bears noting that malcom x labled mlk an uncle tom in no uncertain terms. think about that.

Malcolm X: The white man pays Reverend Martin Luther King, subsidizes Reverend Martin Luther King, so that Reverend Martin Luther King can continue to teach the Negroes to be defenseless. That's what you mean by non-violent: be defenseless. Be defenseless in the face of one of the most cruel beasts that has ever taken a people into captivity. That's this American white man. And they have proved it throughout the country by the police dogs and the police clubs.

A hundred years ago they used to put on a white sheet and use a bloodhound against Negroes. Today they've taken off the white sheet and put on police uniforms, they've traded in the bloodhounds for police dogs, and they're still doing the same thing. And just as Uncle Tom, back during slavery, used to keep the Negroes from resisting the bloodhound, or resisting the Ku Klux Klan, by teaching them to love their enemy, or pray for those who use them spitefully, today Martin Luther King is just a 20th century or modern Uncle Tom, or a religious Uncle Tom, who is doing the same thing today, to keep Negroes defenseless in the face of an attack, that Uncle Tom did on the plantation to keep those Negroes defenseless in the face of the attacks of the Klan in that day.

Of course, Malcolm X realized his folly later. He made his mistakes so you wouldn't have to. But i guess history must repeat before moving on.

in bears noting that malcom x labled mlk an uncle tom in no uncertain terms. think about that.

Dude, you're like a minnow swimming with a shark. While this nod of who made what mistake is quite well known, you'll also be interested to know that MLK and the SCLC made acknowledgements to the NOI and "black nationalists" in how better to attune their strategies, and further acknowledged. Furthermore, Malcolm X was well aware of the white media (and their current minority vestiges) attempts to further this wedge between them, and he refused to be manipulated in this way:

"Now my feeling was that although civil rights leaders kept attacking us Muslims, still they were black people, still they were our own kind, and I would be most foolish to let the white man maneuver me against the civil rights movement", Autobiography, pg 274

Secondly, likening myself to Malcolm, and Dinesh (or you or whoever) to MLK is ludicrous on both counts. To honestly say that Dinesh Dsouza acknowledges a shared history and encourages community based action and awareness is ridiculous for someone who's written a chapter called "two cheers for colonialism"

perhaps they don't see raciam as the major probem facing ethnic minorites in the US today, either do i, but this is a far cry from denying the past.

Then what is? rotten cole slaw? an inherent committment to keeping one's community down? Dsouza has repeatedly spoken of "pathologies in the black culture" in "the end of racism" And here is the ultimate irony. What he and many other conservative commenters say are, "Racism doesn't affect ethnic minorities, it's that they're lazy!" How can you say this attitude doesn't speak of denying the past? If it's not denying the past, I have no clue what is.

in bears noting that malcom x labled mlk an uncle tom in no uncertain terms. think about that.

Maybe I read you wrong, but I'm sure you have heard yourself(?) or other/non black/brown people describe a "successful", black person as 'different' or somehow less black because by definition success=white, has no one ever'coded' you yourself as 'white' becuase you are successful? Laters.

Furthermore, Malcolm X was well aware of the white media (and their current minority vestiges) attempts to further this wedge between them, and he refused to be manipulated in this way:

i think the quote in 82 speak for itself. short of dilettante's machiaveliian interpretation being true, I always read X's life as one of almost fanon like transformation from racist to universalist, which may expalian the quote you provide.

To honestly say that Dinesh Dsouza acknowledges a shared history and encourages community based action and awareness is ridiculous for someone who's written a chapter called "two cheers for colonialism"

two is the operable word. normally if you endorse something its 3 cheers, after all. so he's acknowledging the problems of colonialism while cheering it bringing liberal democracy to india. we've had these discussions on SM before and i believe amardeep has been called a sahib for exploring this notion. perhaps 1 cheer is more appropriate. lets call him a nephew tom and leave it at that ;-)

Then what is? rotten cole slaw? an inherent committment to keeping one's community down? Dsouza has repeatedly spoken of "pathologies in the black culture" in "the end of racism" And here is the ultimate irony. What he and many other conservative commenters say are, "Racism doesn't affect ethnic minorities, it's that they're lazy!" How can you say this attitude doesn't speak of denying the past? If it's not denying the past, I have no clue what is.

he's not denying that racism is why blacks/browns are down, its just not the reason we are not getting up. colonialism knowcked india down, socialism kept her down, and capitalism is getting her up...to sum it up.

Dsouza has repeatedly spoken of "pathologies in the black culture"

y'know, so did malcolm. my impression is many blacks are perfectly comfortable speaking about this...they just don't want whites listening.

Maybe I read you wrong, but I'm sure you have heard yourself(?) or other/non black/brown people describe a "successful", black person as 'different' or somehow less black because by definition success=white

i haven't heard this but i don't doubt it exists or that people think this way. as i said, i think the new racism--the politcs of authenticity--often intersects with the traditional kind.

has no one ever'coded' you yourself as 'white' becuase you are successful?

actually, i've been coded white by indians for been lazy, unstudious, decadent, and unconventional.

All this back and forth aside, Manju, your examples of Nehru and Castro would not qualify for the "Uncle Tom" label because the label isn't so broad to encompass every aspect of someone selling out people for their own benefit. It is specific to the U.S. and to U.S. race relations. The political leanings are not the underlying issue in the examples you described. It's not really that difficult to parse apart the class argument from the race argument. For example, was Stalin a despotic, sick, human rights violating maniac? Yes. But the term "Uncle Tom" hardly applies.

Also, I don't know where a conversation can begin when someone is an apologist for D'Souza's work. He's short on empirical information and long on the vitriol, particularly when it comes to pandering into the model minority myth and playing up the denigration of African Americans in the U.S.

Damn, I hope I don't marry and have kids with a woman whose brother is named Thomas. Would lead to lots of awkward moments at the dinner table...

i think the quote in 82 speak for itself. short of dilettante's machiaveliian interpretation being true, I always read X's life as one of almost fanon like transformation from racist to universalist, which may expalian the quote you provide.

Both are not mutually exclusive. Malcolm did indeed comment about how "whites first called MLK a socialist, anti-American, etc.. then when Malcolm X came along, they thanked god they had a MLK" Such comments were tongue in cheek, but certainly did contain a huge amount of truth in where Malcolm saw the civil rights struggle going. As for the 'transformation' you speak of, Malcolm never, ever once denied the existence, and of a black identity, he only believed that it should extend beyond the US. After visiting african heads of states and hearing what he felt were lies being fed to them via the US state department, he urged blacks in the US and blacks/browns/nonwhites outside the US to unify. In this way, he was a universalist.

ONe of his most famous quotes: "Whites can help us, but they can't join us. We cannot think of uniting with others, unless we first unite with ourselves" He didn't turn into a "everyone is equal whopee!" type person. He recognized past difference and injustice caused schisms that existed clearly in the present.

y'know, so did malcolm. my impression is many blacks are perfectly comfortable speaking about this...they just don't want whites listening.

Please. Absolutely disingenuous. Malcolm's statements are always in the context of it being in a white driven society. Even as he formed the OAAU (post dating his trip to Mecca and transformation), he addressed this point: "Where the really sincere white people have got to do their proving of themselves is not among the black victims, but out on the battle lines of where America's racism really is - and that's in their own home communities ; America's racism is among their own fellow whites. That's where sincere whites who really mean to accomplish something have got to work"

In fact, it was only after being in Africa and the Arab world he realized that it was white American society that caused whites to act that way, not any inherent biological flaw. There isn't even a hint of it being "inherent" to the black people, Dsouza et all, are have this insintuation replete in their statements.

which may expalian the quote you provide.

By the way, the quote I provided, was made by macolm before his trip overseas, and subsequent "transformation" The point is, it's not as cut and dry as you say.