June 16, 2007
"Dutch" isn't veg-friendly.Humor
I love reading real newspapers on the weekends (since all I have time for is Express during the week). While lazing through the New York Times this afternoon, I found this six week old “T: Style” article which made me smile, after the conversation I had yesterday with a mutineer…
me: How was dinner?
she: Can I vent?
me: But of course, my little cabbage!
she: I got robbed.
me: OMG, you got mugged???
she: Noooo. I mean…when the bill came.
me: I don’t get it.
she: Of course you do, you’re veg, too.
me: Oh, THAT-a-way
she: Yes. That. A. Way. Not a damned vegetarian entree on the menu AND everyone I was with obviously ordered seafood— not just any seafood…the market-rate stuff.
me: Ah, that which has no price listed.
she: EXACTLY!
me: Ouch.
she: That’s not even the worst of it! You know how I don’t drink??
me: Yeah…?
she: Well, everyone else more than made up for it. 3-4 each.
me: Wow, so you-
she: Subsidized a bunch of fish and vodka. What I ordered came to all of $25 WITH tax and a 20% tip…what I PAID was $72.
me: Sigh. Well, you made the birthday girl happy by being there.
she: True. But, I COULD HAVE GIVEN HER THE $50. Then she’d be happy and I wouldn’t feel so damned ripped-off.
Stop smirking, dear readers. You know you’ve had that EXACT conversation with one of your friends. Half the brown people in Amreeka are Guju* and plenty of them are Jain. :) Quit acting like you are unaware of the plight of the put-upon veggie:
Do birthday parties held in restaurants give you a palm-dampening, heart-palpitating anxiety attack? You’re not alone…
It’s not that we don’t wish many happy returns to B. P. — now blushing in thanks or dashing abashedly to the powder room — really, we do. It’s the guy two chairs down who ordered the foie gras appetizer, Dover sole entree, side of truffled mashed potatoes and three martinis made with designer gin whom we never want to see again.
“Vegetarians always get screwed at these things,” rightly groused a paralegal who is tired of subsidizing other people’s steak frites.
Well, my herbivore friends, order well and order plenty:
“Order the biggest dinner you can,” advised a struggling stand-up comic, whose cousin’s 30th-birthday party of 10, at the Slanted Door in San Francisco, proved anything but funny. “It was one of those super-overpriced, nothing-on-the-plate places,” she said, “and everyone was gorging — ordering two, three, four dishes. And lots of wine.” In a vain attempt to be frugal, the comedian ordered but a starter of dumplings, washing them down with tap water. When the bill came, her abstemiousness was ignored; she wound up putting $50 on a credit card. “I was too passive to speak up — so mad, and still hungry,” she said.
As for our next blockquote, “Ethnic”? What the-?
Large groups of friends going Dutch at birthday parties, at what people persist in calling “ethnic” restaurants, is common practice just out of college. “After age 30, it’s tacky,” the paralegal said — though surely some slack can be cut for Manhattanites whose apartments are too small to entertain in.
Who says Manhattanites need slack? My gemutlich abode has <500 sq ft, which had me chortling at the last meetup, when one of you asked if we could do the next one at someone’s house instead, and then volunteered mine.
I don’t think what the understandably bitter paralegal was lamenting above is as tacky as THIS:
But what’s the excuse of that successful actress who recently gave a birthday dinner for herself in a private room at a pricey steakhouse in Beverly Hills and, at the end of a boisterous evening, solicited $100 contributions from each invitee? (The drinks were on her, she announced magnanimously.) “In my mind, ‘private room’ should be synonymous with ‘prepaid,’ ” said one bitter attendee.
I thought private room meant the same thing (unless it’s a meetup, people…I ain’t rich!). Even when I couldn’t secure a private room for my little sister’s last birthday at Rasika, I thought it was my responsibility to take care of it (okay, back then I was kinda rich…God bless consulting), since I had invited everyone, on behalf of her. Well, that and aside from one doctor, everyone else worked on the hill/at a non-profit. I’ve been there. Even funnier aside: the doctor at this mostly brown birthday bash was white. But I digress.
I’m sending this to the afore-quoted mutineer, to make her feel better:
Then there was that rising screenwriter who invited 25 associates to a birthday dinner during the popular, budget-friendly Grilled Cheese Night at the upscale Los Angeles restaurant Campanile. About half the group belonged to Hollywood’s aspiring creative class — which is to say, they were unemployed — and gratefully ordered the sandwiches. The other half, mostly studio execs, decided to order liberally from the regular menu, one giving his meal an extra fillip with an expensive dessert liqueur. When the check came, it was split equally. “So we had to pay $100 a person for what amounted to two pieces of bread and some cheese,” fumed one peon. “And the people with the expensive entrees all had expense accounts!”
It’s not just the guests who are complaining about the practice. “In my experience, when you host a thing like this, you always end up 10 percent short,” said — believe it — a math professor. “Is it because, out of 20 people, one or two will just forget to pay entirely? Or because everyone slightly undercalculates what they owe? Who knows?”
I’m proud to say that this has rarely happened at SM meetups, which is remarkable considering how large they are. Our last one at Amma attracted close to 30 people, all of whom covered their share— but you mutineers are fantastic like that.
Some palliative tips to make it all somewhat better?
We need not abandon the idea of parties in restaurants altogether. After all, not everyone has the space, the culinary skill or the energy to celebrate friends in the style they deserve. But perhaps there should be a few rules of order(ing). First, avoid long tablefuls of too many people, lest the honoree feel like she is presiding over the Last Supper. “Groups of 10 or under are great,” said a novelist who’s still recovering from a raucous gathering at a West Village restaurant attended by 19 of her nearest and dearest. If it’s a fancy place, consider limiting the menu choices ahead of time to several reasonably priced alternatives and house wines, perhaps to be printed on a keepsake placard.
Still, it seems like there is no avoiding the Dutch malaise:
If you have piles of money, consider paying for everybody. If you don’t, consider disclosing a rough price of entry ahead of time. And if that is exceeded, suck it up, because the alternative is just unpleasant.
“I went to a dinner for a friend that ended with a girl calculating how many glasses of wine each person had had, dividing the cost of the bottle by glass and calculating how much each person owed,” said a Brooklyn-based lawyer. “Then she calculated the cost of what each person had had to eat, added in the birthday girl’s cost — you get the point. If you’re going to a party at a restaurant, you need to be prepared to split whatever the bill is. Then you can complain about it later to someone who wasn’t there.”
Yep, that’s what I’m here for.
:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:
*I’m totally kidding, so don’t yell at me about this faux-tistic. :D
anna on June 16, 2007 07:06 PM in Humor, Musings · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
I hear there's a debate going on over at orangemutiny.com if "dutch courage" are fighting words.
Warning to people: Previous poster Rahul is lying. Don't try to go to orangemutiny.com, it doesn't exist.
My wife goes through the exact same thing... but what's funny is that I'm (technically) a Brahmin and I'm the only non-vegetarian in my family, and she's Caucasian and she's the only vegetarian in her family! So I love eating at her family's and she loves eating at mine. I think her being a vegetarian definitely helped my family in accepting her. :)
hmm....I don't quite get it, on the rare occasions that we go dutch among my friends, you eat exactly for what you pay...if I order a chicken Masaman with coconut soup (main ingredient chicken broth), a total of 18$ and my friend orders Tofu Masaman with onion soup (main ingredient, err, water), a total of 14$, I pay 18 and my friend pays 14, isn't that what go dutch means?? We do it even when the group is 12 people, individual checks mean individual payment, not average.
Vegetarians get screwed at all expense paid events too. The host beams, “Eat, eat. There’s plenty of food”. All you see is bowl of ranch + bleh greens. Aftereffects include late night hunger and asparapiss.
splitting the check at parties like that always sucks.
For some reason, whenever ordering pizza with friends it ends with one (or indeed several) of them explaining: "You can pick the pepperoni off!" Veg folk always get screwed over *teardrop*
my friends once chose legal seafoods for our pre-formal dinner (knowing i was veg) and i ended up paying $25 for some insipid pasta and veg dish - i.e. a seafood pasta dish without the seafood, but at the same price. it always amazes me how insensitive some people are to vegetarians...
Vegetarians also get screwed in the US because many vegetarian entrees are as expensive as, and sometimes more expensive than, meat. All thanks to government subsidies of factory farming, our tax dollars at work. When I ate in India I really appreciated that veg food cost significantly less than non-veg, as it should.
Non-drinkers really get screwed on split checks though.
Related news: Caltech Physicists Successfully Split The Bill.
May I proffer my rant as an Indian vegetarian, which covers this and other topics?
May I proffer my rant as an Indian vegetarian, which covers this and other topics?
LOL. highly recommended. now off to gorge on shrimp....
Regarding #11, the link sums up my life when eating out with others. The conversations in the "rant" are the exact same ones I have experienced.
Being a vegetarian and a non drinker usually means my pocketbook gets screwed to the max when going to restaurants with friends and even non veg family members. Like #11, I NEVER judge or scrutinize others for their dietary choices just for the record. Self righteousness is not my thing. It just seems that non veg food is a bit more expensive than veg. (Exceptions do exist like organically grown produce, excellent upscale veg friendly restaurants like SFO's "Greens", etc.) May be light eaters and dieters who just order appetizers or salads probably face the same problem of splitting the bill at the end, too. It can be a very delicate subject.
Being a vegetarian isn't always easy (and going dutch at a restaurant is one of the difficulties!) When I was growing up in the 70's in the Midwest (I realize this is going to make me look ancient!), whenever I mentioned I never ate meat, people were scratching their heads. At one point when I was in eighth grade and in a new school, the strangest rumor began to circulate about me. My fellow students were coming up to me and asking me if I was a "veterinarian". I then realized that the crowd I hung out with had noticed my meatless lunches and then whole school found out I was "vegetarian". At the time,I couldn't understand why the kids were thinking I was a veterinarian and even if I was, what the heck was I doing in middle school?? Sorry to rant - I realized my post has nothing to do with going dutch but my stream of consciousness led me to this very distant memory.
at least you weren't a pediatrician attacked for being a pedophile!
She should have ordered the most expensive dessert. Hell, order a death by chocolate cake, and a cheesecake with the freshest strawberries. The most expensive appetizer. I have a hard time believing she couldnt find some expensive appetizers which were vegetarian. Probably order some juices which are not the free refill kind.
Another point: Usually we do not bicker over a dollar or two when we go in big groups, but when we realize one person ate much less or much more than the others, we do account for that approximately. Usually it's when one person ate too less. It was inconsiderate of the group to expect your friend to pay the same. Someone should have said: you know what "we will all pitch in 80 each and let Anna'a freaky of a vegetarian friend pay only 40." OK i keed on the freak part. But it was very inconsiderate of the group to not expect her to pay the same.
Restaurants: I am a big non veg person. But even I find it odd restauarants are so uncreative with their veg offerings. How about a salad with many top quality premium leaves instead of the standard iceberg lettuce and carrot shavings and some goop posing as dressing? SOme premium raw vegetables?
I don't drink. But what i have noticed is I was NEVER asked to split the tab when drinks formed a significant part of the bill.
I don't like it when we should all over ourselves, as one famous fictional character once said.
I hear you, I've done the dessert thing. At one memorable dinner, I had german chocolate cake for dinner and molten for dessert, since EVERY appetizer and entree had flesh or seafood in it. And no, it still didn't equal the cost of what others ate, but it was all that was edible. Also, most places with expensive appetizers don't serve anything with free refills or juice, but I am a routine-consumed fraidy-cat who eats at the same four restaurants, so I'm probably wrong.
I lost weight when I moved here for school, from California, b/c it was far less veg-friendly back then. I still remember my shock at the first menu I encountered with NO vegetarian options...it was depressing, but not as depressing as the more-expensive-than-an-airport-food-court-cafeteria at GW.
I've been a vegetarian all my life, but having recently entered the wonderful world of post-college life, I've only just started to have my share of 'robberies'. I've found that the best way to counter this to enumerate the items that each person has bought (if not shared) at such a dinner, then to keep the credit cards in that order. Sure, in large groups this isn't the most practical, but the other option would be to eat more, which isn't necessarily a person would want to do (I don't like ordering more than I want for the sake of it). Another [unpopular] suggestion may be to raise your voice about the discrepancy between what you ordered and what you're about to pay. Generally speaking from my experience, people are considerate about this even if it means causing a large inconvenience.
Vegetarians probably get screwed more systematically on this count than others, but can I also say that as a graduate student with friends who have Real Jobs, I face this problem all the time? First you go to places that are more expensive than you can really afford, because that's where everyone wants to go, then you get the cheapest pasta on the menu, and one glass of wine, then you end up paying for everyone's salmon. You know what the trouble is? People are afraid to speak up and appear "cheap." And Americans, I am sorry to generalise but I have reason, are much less likely to speak out than others because people are less aware of or less open about differences in class and income, everyone wants to pretend that everyone else has the same amount of money, and to start calculating what each person owed exactly is seen as nitpicking, not to mention a little difficult after several drinks. And it's always those with more money who are happy to let friends with less subsidise them because it's "only twenty bucks" for them.
We can all do ourselves and our friends a favour by speaking up for the person we know ordered less or is getting screwed. When someone else speaks up for you, it shames others into being fair.
Oh, and desis are by no means angels when it comes to going out either, as I remember (this was a while ago) most people back home are not likely to go out with friends on a bill-splitting basis, but rather expect one person to "invite" and then pay for everyone. And it's usually the same people, often those perceived to have more money, who end up doing the inviting, while everyone else piles on.
It's kind of like game theory sometimes, and coordination dilemmas, and prisoner's dilemmas.
simple recipe for finding vegetarian food in any city/town/village/etc:
1. Are there any universities in the area? Do any house a particularly famous art department? If so, you're in good shape; a glut of art grads, plus a healthy population of people who got guilty over their meat in college, means serious potential for veggie options on the menu.
2. Look around, do you see a considerable amount of people with dyed-black hair, facial (and otherwise) piercings who may think that Arcade Fire sounds just like Benevento Russo? If you've stopped seeing anyone in sperry top-siders and abercrombie, it means you're close to hitting the veggie jackpot!
3. (in case 1 and 2 fail). Find yourself a kitchen, all the good local ethnic-food stores and learn to cook well. You'll be doing this a lot over the next couple of years (or however long you find yourself on the east coast).
unless you're friends with a bunch of stone-age diet adherents, you could try making your diet more of an issue so your friends remember it all the time and start making allowances on their own. Otherwise, it's just so alien to most carnies, they'll quickly assume that you too can sample whatever organ/fatty muscle that they're having.
Dude, diet is not an issue for me. I am not vegetarian, just not as well off as my friends with regular jobs, hence the cheap dishes. A lack of sensitivity and awareness and self-interested bill-equalizing can be a problem in this case too.
SP,
honestly i'm torn about this: wasn't this whole post about vegetarian complaints when going dutch on the bill?
not that i'm devaluing your problems, I just thought that the veggie's position in this situation is unique.
I think I've been fortunate; I can't recall ever being asked to split the bill equally with others (this may have something to do with the fact that many of my friends are also students). Finances aside, I would certainly feel ethically uncomfortable subsidizing others' purchase of meat, eggs, dairy products or alcohol -- if it's not something I would be willing to buy for them from the grocery store, why would I 'buy' it for them in a restaurant?
The bigger problem is having others in the group pick a non-veg restaurant and then act all surprised when there is nothing I can eat.
Unfortunately, for vegans the 'load up on dessert' approach is rarely an option; I usually search the menu in vain for even *one* vegan dessert (which is nuts, because there are certainly enough lactose-intolerant people around to justify a tofu cheesecake on every menu).
I completely and truly feel the pain here. Being a vegetarian, I have vented similarly to my girl friend after so many dinners.
And while we are on personal rants here is mine on being a vegetarian in this country :)
anna: amen.
recently had a similar experience with some friends heading into baltimore. i had three sides of veggies, they got crabcakes and the lot. total bill equaled my rent. enough said.
though even great veggie places in dc such as java green are still on the pricey side...easy to walk out with a full workday lunch at $15.
So Anna, is this also the post about the last DC SMeetup? Because if it is, I just checked the linked pictures, and again want to say how goodlooking everyone is. Not everyone was at the April Meetup, so that is saying something new. :) And you look so pretty, not to say warm, friendly, and appealing as well - in that lovely green sari.
BTW, I've always interpreted 'Going Dutch' as 'everyone pays their own way'. If this is not clearly understood, and when the bill comes you don't speak up for fear of being thought cheap, well, you can get gypped.
My own experience is not so much along the veg/non-veg schism, but on the heavy drinker/very light drinker schism. I never have more than one drink - but people I've gone out with have often had several - (an Irish-American friend once downed 16 glasses of beer right in front of me) and guess what happens when the bill arrives - we begin splitting it, till someone says, 'Oh, but S here had only the one beer, let's take off $15 from his tab, and everyone else owes $5 more' or something like that. But not always - people will take advantage when they can get away with it.
In my very first month in the US, for example, I was roped in to 'co-host' a party. The other two co-hosts went out and bought - and I still remember it exactly after all these years - $108 worth of alcohol and beer, and I got socked for $36. The party was a fair success, and still the alcohol and beer left over lasted them the rest of the term. At the time I was still a teetotaler! (Some people still think I am)
So, what we are saying is that vegetarians are like the tofu of a dinner party, producing a disproportionate amount of gravy when squeezed? Personally, I don't quail and just tell them my beef in such a situation, so other people chicken out from asking me to pony up. Alright, alright, that sentence was ham-handed, I hope you veal not have a cow!
Also, here's a suggested topic for the next post: I don't tip, but probably without all that French.
As for my post #1, I was a bad, bad boy, so sorry about flooding the Dutch. Thanks, Slow, for sticking your foot in the mouth of that dike.
He hardly split bills among friends. One person usually pays for the entire group (4-5 ppl) and in the long run everything evens out. We used to have this arrangement while growing up in India (and in my undergrad), but I find it incresingly difficult to execute it here (in the US), because people are particular about each and every dollar they spend!
My first day in grad school - I meet my advisor and he says "lets have a cup of coffee". Takes me to a coffee shop, orders his coffee, pays for it and then looks towards me ..almost saying "why don't you order something".
"We"
Anna, I agree no one "should" have to order expensive desserts to compensate. But that's all I could think of to make the most of the situation. And really? Not one vegetarian appetizer? Even in a chain restaurant, they got mozzarella sticks or some potato stuff.
Maybe one tactic would be "Guys, I'll tag along for company but if I don't have anything to eat at that place, I'll just have a coke and sit in for company." And even before the bill comes in(or wheneever you think the timing is good), just say "Guys, I'll just round off my share. Here's 10-20 bucks. I think should cover the tip and my share(which everyone should realize would come to not even 5 bucks.) Or just some variation on this spiel which you think you can pull off without major akwardness.
I just think it is incredibly dense of your friend's group to make her pay the same share for such an expensive bill. We split evenly sometimes when the bill is around 10 a person and no one loses more than a couple of bucks and we usually do it with our regular group of diners where everything evens out oer a few meals.
As for my post #1, I was a bad, bad boy, so sorry about flooding the Dutch.
Rahul, it is not just the Dutch. You must also consider the Floridian.
I live in LA, where I am the sole vegetarian among my designer boozing, sushi snacking friends. An average dinner for 8 people runs us about $800, and my total for miso soup, salad, and maybe a cocktail puts me at $30, inclusive of tip. Veggie people also need to speak up and let others know not to count them in the spkit down the middle. Same goes for frequenting the Brazilian, all you can devour meat places like Fogo de Chao, where it's non-stop service for meats at a fixed price, and I get the salad/cheese bar.
I toss in the $30 and let them figure out their carnivorous checks on their own and feel no guilt about doing so.
Awww... As a non-drinker, totally feel this post. I don't care if people drink, I just have issues paying for alcohol in any circumstance. I get especially perturbed when bills are split evenly and I have to foot a table full of drinkers bills. In these cases I simply pay what for what I ate, and let the drinkers deal with the bill...
I look at it this way if I ask a friend out I will pay for it all. I work at a law firm and have went out with a group of people and I ended up paying for drinks that I did not even order so I learned my lesson I alway get my own check so I don't end up getting stuck with paying 70.00 dollars for two drinks.
It's really just a matter of consideration. If I'm planning a dinner/event, you look for a place that has enough variety. I had to organize brunch today with the fam - 11 people in total. One vegetarian, lots of meat eaters, and we didn't want to do prix-fixed menus paying 25/pp. Many places have menus available online now and you can look up what they have available ahead of time.
If you're going out with friends/colleagues and you all want to split the bill evenly, I think it's only fair if everyone is having dishes that come out to about the same. Otherwise, if only certain people are or aren't drinking - they should account for the liquor separately amongst themselves. Same with someone eating substantially less than everyone - why not let them pay for themselves, and everyone else remaining split?
If you hang out with people that are inconsiderate of your cash flow or dietary restrictions- maybe you shouldn't go out with them. :P
I am the only vegetarian in a group I go to dinner with quite often. There's other Indians in the group too, who are not vegetarian. Many of the people rib me about it, but that's all it is. When we pick places to eat, they make sure that there's vegetarian options on the menu that I am happy with. As for splitting the tab, if people don't bring it up themselves, and I feel that things are lopsided, I just mention that my order cost $10 less than the average or whatever (because of food or drinks - although the latter isn't usually an issue :-), so maybe we should account for that. Most people immediately factor that in, and it is not an issue going forward. Being forthright about the tab if it gets your goat just avoids, er, heartburn later.
In fact, I follow this policy even when I'm on a date. I usually place my order first with the waiter, present him a coupon, and tell him that the lady will have an entree of equal or lesser value. I've found it really avoids the awkwardness later on.
just as long as you don't consider the lady of lesser value? i think that would avoid more than awkwardness later on - perhaps it might also rule out some action as well? i once went out with this guy, and on our first date, he took me to a very nice italian restaurant in boston. when it came time to order, we only ordered two appetizers (one veg, one non-veg, so basically i only ate half of one appetizer) and a bottle of wine. at first, i thought that we would follow up with entrees - but that was it! when i told him i wanted to order a main course, he said he wasn't that hungry, so i felt it was rude if i ate while he didn't. i sort of thought he was just being cheap - but then i realised that little food + lots of alocohol = one very drunk date (me). he did pay for the whole 'meal,' though.
Perhaps I am crazy cheap, but my friends always split the bill by what we ate. For a birthday, one of us will calculate what tip should be and divide that and tip by the table, along with the cost of the birthday person's food/drink. So you have a set figure to add to what you owe on the bill. Why is that so uncouth?? I really don't get it.
Now, I think if its a dollar or two difference and you're with a group of 4 or so, then splitting it evenly makes sense, but in a big group its so easy for something like the above to happen.
I had my birthday party at a vegetarian restaurant that doesn't serve alcohol. Cheap, too.
very clever, nina! though that mock meat shit scares me - tastes too much like the real thing...
Rahul says: "In fact, I follow this policy even when I'm on a date. I usually place my order first with the waiter, present him a coupon, and tell him that the lady will have an entree of equal or lesser value. I've found it really avoids the awkwardness later on."
Of course it does, because you cannot have awkwardness when a date is not in front of you because she dumped your cheap ass. All right, I am harsh on you. Heh. But if you are using a buy one get one free coupon and you are assuming the bill, why not just let her order first, and then you make your order and let the server apply it on the cheaper one? What is the worst that can happen? She orders a 15 buck dish and you end up ordering a 10 dollar dish and you end up paying 15 for two dishes?
Like I said before, timing is the issue when it comes to stating that your bill is less. Make sure you preempt the calculation people will do out loud when splitting the bill. I have done this before. THe waiter is bringing the bill in, I have a meal that costs 18-20 bcause I do not drink, so I offer 25 saying, Hey guys, mine is 18 and change, here's 25 for whoever is paying by credit card(this effectrively preempts the notion you are disturbing the group concept and puts into play the notion that you are overcompensating the one person paying the bill with his or her card). But the key thing is doing this before they even start calculating. But don't do it too soon or you wll come across as anal. Also do not overexplain it like I am doing right now. Your delivery has to be very casual. And if you have good friends, they might actually say "hey man, take a dollar back, we aren't going to be tipping that much. "(which they actually said to me).
Tip: Take small bills so you wont be caught asking for dollar bills back in change if you are uncomfortable doing so and end up bitching to Anna about it.:=)
I believe Rahul was making a funny. But seriously Rahul, you can order me an entree of equal or lesser value whenever you want, if you know what I mean. Oh yeah.
I have to agree with the posters who're surprised by this weird version of "going Dutch". I've only heard someone suggest it once and they were promptly shot down; I had no idea it was a common practice.
My experience of group meals is that everyone pays roughly what they ordered plus tip. As I don't make much and never order expensive food, I'd be appalled at essentially subsidizing my co-workers/acquaintances more expensive tastes. This practice really seems to go against common sense and fairness.
Word. If it was a group of people I didn't know well, I'd definitely feel embarrassed about saying I'd like to pay less.
:-) nice cartoon.
Someone mentioned above about "you can pick the meat off the pizza"; a related issue is when eating family-style, having a veg entree which has been included for you eaten up by "open-minded" carnivores.
i'm in a sticky situation...a buddy of mine is getting married, and dinner is non-buffet...guests will each be served a plate of steak and shrimp. would it be rude to tell our server beforehand to hold the meat, and double up on the sides/bread?
I used to get screwed like this all the time! Not anymore....why the heck am I going to subsidize booze??? I next to never drink!! My friend taught me a nice trick...ask for separate checks! :P
That is the truth! As a non-drinker I never pay for folks' alcohol. I have no problem whatsoever only putting in for what I ate. I don't think I'm cheap, but my friends and I have not split evenly on a bill since we were in high school. A lot of this was because I always had fewer food options (allergic to dairy, picky about my diet), but a lot of it was because we all came from different socioeconomics. Our system has always been either a) pay for what you consumed, or b) pay equitably. That is, if folks insist on an expensive restaurant (and are better off financially), they're expected to pay the difference for those who could not afford it and would not choose that restaurant otherwise. It's nice because over time this always changes -- someone goes back to grad school, someone else lands a new job or promotion. It's spread out pretty evenly over time.
But I'm with SP. I think it's perfectly acceptable to only put in what you feel is fair, or to make it clear what your eating requirements are from the beginning. The worst story is by far the person who springs their bill on you (which I've had happen) -- I just thought it was grade A tacky.
Areem, this is true for vegans almost ANYWHERE. I feel like the only way to really avoid vegan malaise is to eat at vegan restaurants or go places where you know the veggie (as in actual vegetables) dishes will be good.I also just feel this is good housekeeping. If you're going to invite vegans, make sure you have vegan dishes or go to a vegan restaurant. My friends all do this -- only one of us is vegan! It's not that hard to get on the internet and figure out how to put something together for a potluck, or to do a quick online search for a good restaurant. It's inconsiderate to invite folks out and then hold your gathering somewhere where there is NOTHING for them to eat/drink.
After experiencing the 'conservative eater' burn I've learnt a few lessons...
1. I'll meet up birthday parties for after dinner drinks and skip the dinner. I don't drink much so it works out. I'll by the birthday/girl boy a drink and sip on something and call it a day. Oh and also no drinks at a 'table' where one bill exists. I'll go to the bar and get my own drink thank you. Getting a total bill for one table at the end of the evening for drinks is a major potential burn.
2. When hosting just such a birthday bash for myself I only a few close friends are invited to dinner and the rest meetup for drinks. Dinner is usually at someplace chic but inexpensive. Unfortunately I've also cut off people from the list who are picky, difficult eaters who end up posing a problem when the bill arrives. This gripe goes both ways :-)
3. If the disparity between what I ate versus what I'm paying for ends up being $15+ I insist on paying for what I ate. I'm perfectly happy treating the birthday person on my bill alone but not OK with paying for too much more than what I got. And especially if people are downing $80 worth of drinks and I had a coke.
I've been burnt enough and probably have been inconsiderate in the past when I was younger and have come to realize this as I've gotten older.
You guys all make good points. But on the other hand, I have a friend who will always calculate down to the nearest 10 cents the exact amount of his order (and his share of the tip), and pay exactly that amount. I guess there's nothing wrong with it, but come on...most of the time if the bill had just been split evenly, it would have hardly made a difference, maybe he would have paid an extra 3 or 4 bucks...but at least he wouldn't have looked so cheap. The rest of my friends tend to just split the bill evenly. As for me, if I've ordered more drinks than others, or if I've ordered a more expensive entree, I always try to pay extra to make up for that.
There is another way that you can get cheated at dinner with friends...if you all order a bunch of dishes to share...and one person eats the lion's share, yet all have to split the bill evenly. To be honest, it's often me eating the lion's share though, so maybe I shouldn't complain...but seriously, how would you creative minds solve that type of problem?
wow what a timely post just in time to make me a support group.. I went to a highschool graduation party in a restaurant this friday. My gf ordered Rissoto and me some soup salad and breadsticks, plus a glass or 2 of wine. After some cofee and 20% tip,our share come out to be about 80 bucks :(. I feel ripped off !
And the worst, I had to go to jack in the box like 2 hours later ..sob!
Meerkat:
If your buddy is a close friend, s/he can mention to the caterer that there will be a/some vegetarian/s present, if you ask him/her beforehand. Most caterers will make allowances since the food is cooked the same day anyway. You may end up with a lot of salads or some artistic pasta or something, but at least you won't have to have them juggling. Our non-veg friend who got married recently told his caterer to reserve 2 veg meals. They seem to have misunderstood that veg does not include seafood so we had to get them to make us a different first course, but they were prepared with an appropriate entree which was nice. If you don't know the person very well it would be harder to get that allowance made, but with a buddy I would expect it wouldn't be a big problem for him/her to put in a phone call.
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On to other topics, here is a story that makes me feel very lucky that our non-veg friends want to spend time with us and don't care about the food so much so they will "take a hit" so to speak and eat veg when we go out! (Great friends, I tell ya!) About 10 years ago, I, a vegetarian, who went for a class in Baja CA for 6 weeks with everyone else carnivores except one meat eater who referred to herself as a vegan (WTF!) was actually coerced to start shelling a crab that I wasn't going to eat. (Yeah, I wasn't the person I am today. NowMe would have probably insisted on being paid for that lol.) We had prepaid for food for the trip and I got really shafted because I lived on cornflakes, chocolate milk, and mangoes and wasn't even going to eat it and they said, get this: "even if you aren't going to eat it you still have to contribute and help prepare dinner!" But, of course, they were quite insensitive, or even mean, so my share of dinner preparation did not involve chopping the onion. I almost barfed, which is a big deal since I haven't since I was 7. Yuck. In retrospect I would have liked to claim "my" crab before it was cooked and let it go just to make a point: I paid for it so I should get to do whatever I want with it. Anyway, this makes me appreciate our friends so much for their consideration.
this is nuts. I don't think I've seen this many vegetarians and non drinkers in one place, outside of the buddhist monastery. And this ain't no monastery.
Oh yeah, Nina, I do know what you mean. I just reserved us a corner table for this Friday evening at the neighborhood McD's. Anything you want on the dollar menu, it's yours. And, of course, dinner's on me.
Welcome to the Ashram, my friend.
Yes!!!!!!!!
I so know what you're talking about!
Being a vegetarian and going dutch sucks. Its a facade. They make you believe that it's going to be nice and but almost always end up paying more than what you eat for. I mean, come on, how much could a vegetarina dish cost as compared to say a Duck or Prawns.
And if you notice, there are always there people who get away without paying much!
Psst: I'm a carnivore, just for the record.
Install a device in each of our esophaguses that calculates the rate at which food enters, and alcohol intake as well. The device will have to be networked (with bluetooth or infrared) with other dinner people. THen when the bill comes an exact calculation can be made.
HMF - there's also a good old honour code - everyone has a sense of how much s/he owes, and unless you're Lakshmi Mittal or something you probably chose an entree or decided to skip dessert or had a certain number of drinks based on what you could spend that evening. It's a matter of being honest, and putting in what you owe, instead of taking the easy way out and making someone else pay for your indulgences with a socialized-collectivised check (btw I always think it's so ironic that it's Americans who insist on collectivisation in this regard).
So, do the Dutch really always (on dates?) split checks? Whats the etymology of the phrase?
Even though I pick up the tab unless the girl insists, I always felt not sharing the cost of the meal is a little old fashioned. For all the progress feminist causes have made, I dont quite understand what the act of a guy picking up the check is supposed to mean? Is it some kind of courting ritual that tells girls something about the guy? (I am hoping its not something as crass as "You buy me dinner and I will fuck you ")Maybe I am wierd to think so, but my opinion of the girl drops a little if she doesnt atleast offer to split the check.
I am really looking forward to hearing y'alls take on this.
You're right. Golly gee willakers, what was I thinking?
I'm completely on board here. A friend of mine tried to explain this away, with something like, "No, she's just assessing your ability to be financially responsible by using your ability as a demarcater" to which I responded, "alright, I'll just produce my last gas bill, check receipt, and investment portfolio" That should eradicate any notion of fiscal irresponsibility.
Mind you, I have no problem with women expecting men to pay. Just be upfront and admit the sh*t. A girl once told me, "if a guy doesn't pay on the first date, he's out" and then said, "but it's not about the money" I called her out for hypocrisy and she didn't have a leg to stand on.
Chaps, I share your discomfort with women who expect the guy to pick up the check on the first date, but I get the impression from most of my American girl friends that this is seen as a sign that the guy is attentive/chivalrous, willing to do the chasing and the courting at least at first and even if only nominally. Some last little vestige of romance or something. I don't really get it, and I do think it's hypocritical, but then there's enough hypocrisy about feminism to go around in Amrika (as anywhere else), e.g. women's families still paying for weddings and women still doing the bulk of housework in a two-earner household.
sometimes, it is - i've had plenty of guy friends tell me that after paying for dinner, drinks etc. they didn't get as much action as they expected. i have issues with this, partly because it seems to categorize the gender roles - men are for money, women are for sex. re paying the bill - i think whoever asked for the first date should pay at least the meal (even when the other offers to split). when i do the asking, sometimes i pay for the meal, and drinks before or after. but usually when it's the other way around, i like to pay for whatever comes after the meal, like drinks or the cover at a bar/club. after the first date, though, it should be more even - splitting the bill or taking turns.
That's entirely their fault. Personally, I use the Feynman method (pages 72-74).
It doesn't mean anything. It's just a stupid social convention like opening the door, or wearing clothes.
Indian men vs women - ABDs vs IBDs(Indian BOrn Desis who have been here long enough to know better) vs FOBs(legit excuse not to realize tipping is important because of the wages). Tipping habits.
My cousin had an Indian restaurant and told me that a lot of Indians(especially the IBDs who were rich and stayed here long enough to know better) were the worst tippers. Some docs would not even leave 5% on a big ass bill.
My experience - ABDs are pretty good tippers. IBDs - I have seen some cheap ones, but in general, I have seen more good ones than bad ones. But I have heard plenty of cheap IBD anecdotes with respect to tipping from my sis and a couple of relatives. So maybe I just hang out with a cooler IBD crowd??:=)))
This seems like off topic, but I was just curious if some of you felt the need to overcompensate your share of the tip to make up for your lunch friends(regadless of ethnicity) cheap ass tipping. We would have one colleague(White) who would always round up his share enough to cover either his tax or his tip but not enough for both. And even when it covered his tip, most of the time it would be 10% worth. It didnt bother us at first because we usually allow for a margin of a dollar error to expedite the splitting of the bill. But over time, it got on our nerves why this guy would always err on the cheaper side instead of underpaying once and overpaying another time as the others would.
Yeah, it's a social convention, but it's also part and parcel of wider understandings of masculinity and femininity - the man is expected to provide stability and financial security, the woman emotional nurturing, etc etc. I've had some men (on the older, old fashioned side) complain that it's "unfeminine" when women ask to split the check and it takes away some of the romance to be calculating and negotiating with someone you've just met and are smitten with. This sort of thing is deeply ingrained for some people. I don't get it, but it's important to them.
People from the midwest are the best tippers.
This is like male/female dining version of the grandfather clause. I'd imagine a female asking is about as common as Haley's comet.
i don't think it's that uncommon, but yes the male:female ratio is quite imbalanced. but i do think it's a fair system - if you were interested enough to ask a person out, you should be at least willing to pay for the meal on the first date, even if the other offers and you accept. beyond the meal on the first date, everything else is fair game.
There was a time when I just went along with the group's choice of restaurant and suffered through a plate of greens. Nowadays, I mention beforehand or people know about my veg preference, and make sure we go to a place which is veg-friendly. And we always take separate checks. I suffered (in Orlando, of all places) through an extremely buttery pasta because everyone else wanted sea-food. I swear I still haven't lost those pounds I gained through that meal.
Etymology on going dutch
I see your point, but I actually believe the in somewhat the opposite, I think the one party paying should occur later on, if at all. I think even though one person asks, if the other person accepts, they are implicitly saying, I am interested enough to get to know you too. A split check to me, indicates that equal interest factor, rather than, "ok since you're paying I'll put up with your physical presence"
Besides, someone has to do the asking, unless both people sit, logged on to this website, and time it perfectly to say "you wanna go out" as per the NIST standard.
I knew exactly what you were talking about when you mentioned Feynman and I agree with the premise of that story, but only when it comes to drinks at a bar not dinner.
Damn this newfangled Internet thingy! Usually, that takes till after the first date.
fair enough. for the record, i always offer (but am sometimes not successful) even when it is one of those physical-presence-tolerance dates.
wouldn't they have to pre-plan this synchronocity, thus, essentially, erasing any need for the asking by either?
I'm going to
prayassume this is a joke!As a lover of Filet Mignon who washes it down with Pinot Noir, I will be more considerate before I throw out a card and say "split it". If I see someone eat light/veg, I'll take it upon myself to look out for them. I DO think veg folks should speak up.
I've thought about the dinner party route. Considering I don't dig on swine (nobody wants pizza with me) and I associate w/ friends who are either no beef, veg, no beef/pork/lamb + shellfish allergy, veg + peanut allergy -- I've given up. We just go out and everyone fends for themselves.
As far as dating, whoever asks, pays. If you take someone out, be prepared to pay for the works. Know where reasonable/tasty places are.
I remember many years ago that my apartment complex was having a neighborhood party and the only things they had to eat were hot dogs and potato chips (and the like). Several of the Indian families that had moved in the few preceding months went to the party and had nothing to eat. That drove the point home pretty quickly for me that people (especially myself) should be more culturally sensitive.
It kind of sours my stomach when people are not aware enough of their surroundings to realize that not everyone eats like they do, and that there is a world beyond their own needs.
You know, back in the dark ages, when I actually still dated, I never succeeded at my attempts to split the check. The guy always seemed to think it was his job to pick up the check.
Mostly, I blame the wait staff. They invariably bring the check to the male at the table, contributing to the whole "guy picks up the check" thing.
This sounds nice in practice, but to me, it's just a "guy pays first" de facto rule. We live in a society in which men do all the asking.
From this discussion going on and on about female financial growth, everyone should make like the banana and split. It's the only way to send a message of "we're on equal footing here, trying to get to know each other"
The "person who asked out pays and then you alternate for subsequent dates" strategy is actually rather Marcel Mauss - a gift invites reciprocity and a sustained relationship, so perhaps the fact that you're willing to take a gift/favour/meal from someone suggests you are interested enough in them to continue the relationship? It's certainly why a lot of women I know insist on splitting the bill after a bad date, so they won't feel obliged to the schmuck or feel they have to go out with him again.
Then again, there are some women who'll go out with a guy for laughs or just for a fun evening out, not because they're really interested, and expect him to pay, and I've heard them referred to (particularly among those who use internet dating services) as "dinner whores." Ouch.
i know what you mean - i always insist on paying when i do the asking. but when i am asked, even though i offer to pay, how much i insist beyond that depends on the situation. some guys are even offended at the offer to pay, so i just let it go. and it's hard to decipher what this means with each guy - macho? proof of financial means? insecurity? or just the etiquette that they asked you out and should pay? i was going to write more on this topic, but the more i type, the more i realise how tricky dating can be. depressing...
Hema, were these desi male waitstaff or waitstaff in the US? If the former, I know what you mean; in the US, I've almost never encountered this. Except at desi restaurants, actually, and then I'd insist on paying with my card and take cash for the boyfriend's share from him later, just to piss off the sexist desi restaurant guys who plunked the check in front of the BF.
SP, do you always dutch on dates? So much for empowerment. tsk tsk *shakes head sanctimoniously*
i have so many memories of having to eat bread or rice at restaurants as a child, while my friends would gorge on burgers and chicken pasta. every since entering adulthood and the lovely world of dining out (for, oh, almost every meal), though, i haven't had a single problem getting ripped off as a vegetarian. if anything, it's my friends who get screwed when eating with me. i have a very healthy appetite. if eat out, i ideally like to have appetizers, a salad, entree, and maybe dessert if i'm not going to explode. oh, and i forgot the bottle of wine. my friends, be it because they're broke, weight conscious, have small appetites, or just aren't culinarily adventurous, almost never want to order as much food as me. i've made it a rule to stop eating out with people who only order an appetizer or salad as their entree (or just pay for it if i know they are counting pennies). i don't think i've ever been to a dinner where we didn't at least check the bill and have everyone pay close to their fair share. i'm startled to hear it happens to some of you so frequently.
and btw, i hate the idea that veges should load up on appetizers (e.g. mozarella sticks) or desserts -- how does that work for the vegetarian who tried to eat healthy? i would feel sick, just as i did as a kid, if i had to eat a meal of bread and fried goods. i always speak up before making dinner plans and check out menus online before any meal with strangers who don't know i'm vegetarian. i've also called ahead to the restaurant plenty of times and let them know to expect a vegetarian; many places that don't have vege options on the menu are more than willing to accomodate.
some people have actually theorized based on amount, that is, the asker/male should pay if it's a fairly low amount (~15-20 bucks) but split if it's higher. I can understand this, because a low-amount split could be taken as "I don't want you to even think that we're gonna see each other again"
Hema, were these desi male waitstaff or waitstaff in the US?
Mostly with desi waitstaff in the US, although I have encountered the same phenomenon at some nice non-desi restaurants (with non-desi waitstaff) too. I think there's just an assumption that the guy is picking up the check, and if not, well, it's a harmless mistake from the waitstaff's perspective. I've always wondered what happens with same-sex couples.
It's actually fun to mess with the waitstaff at desi restaurants. They invariably bring the check to my husband, and he always makes a big show of handing the check to me in the waiter's presence. The thing that amuses me is even after the waiter sees me put my credit card down, he still brings the receipt, etc. to my husband!
hema -- I've had the same experience, with non-desi waitstaff as well as desi waitstaff. While desi waitstaff are a bit more... insistent on the bill going to the male, I've had the same thing happen in other restaurants (I put down the card, the guy gets the receipt for the signature). I much prefer the tradition of leaving the bill in the middle of the table.
Yes, racist classism is always the right response to presumed sexism. Always.
C'mon, chachaji...I think you know that's not how my remark was intended. Racist classism?
The fact is, after repeated visits to the same restaurant where I have picked up the check, it's about time the waitstaff responded by just leaving the check at some neutral location on the table.
DDIA - yes, of course, always. Why? What's unempowered about that?
C'mon Hema - like this is some really big deal. When we talk of presumed sexist slights (and this is a really slight slight, if it's even a slight) - let us not forget the two huge other variables - race and class - and how they intersect with the 'desi waitstaff' and how we think about these things, and how we prioritize injustices and slights. Surely you knew better than to suggest the fun in 'messing' with 'desi waitstaff'. This is classist otherizing.
If you mean:
most = 99.9999%
alll = 100%
then we agree.
Alright, apparently I need to clarify. I WAS joking about the entree of equal or lesser value thing on a date. The truth is I completely eliminate this issue by dating only on cone days.
SM Interns/Technicians/(Code) Monkeys, I again request a "warning! attempted humor" button for Firefox. Unless you want your comments section to look like the detritus of a 15 year old's AIM conversation littered with LOLs and j/k's.
That's such a clunky word. Why isn't the opposite of empowered "blacked out"?
In fact, I'd call this just a slight of hand.
(ok, I'll stop now).
Gah! Where are all these vegetarian Desis when I'm doing online dating?! Clearly you all exist, but I never seem to *see* you anywhere! :-)
Back on topic: I've been screwed over so much by this, to the extent that I decline invites to fancy restaurants with friends. My polenta should not cost the same as someone else's T-bone steak (or whatever the heck y'all eat). My only suggestions so far:
1. Skip dinner and show up later for dessert. There is no way in hades anyone will ask you to split the bill if you didn't eat a meal.
2. Drink...a lot. Preferably martinis...with high end vodka. You shouldn't have to do this, but if you're going to pay a lot anyway, you may as well be properly inebriated. It hurts less. ;-)
Even aside from being vegetarian, it's painful if there are discrepancies in income. Some people just want to save money and not eat an expensive meal. It's a shame that they can't bring this up for fear of causing discomfort at the table. Bleh - there has to be a solution!
Sorry folks ,but its not just vegetarians who go through this
I have had several experiences where a group will go out on a work day ( usually a farewell lunch for someone) , the rest of the lunchers order a bottle of wine and really heavy entrees - I do not because:
a) I cannot do a heavy lunch
b) I do not drink in the middle of a workday .
But I still end up paying for someone's Merlot and Prime ribs.
Sometimes all you can do is suck it up and vent later. After all you always have the option of not attending !
More love for non -vegetarians ,please! Where is your sense of inclusion?
As some of us thought, reading the link to the etymology of the word Dutch Treat given by Munimma in #72 splitting a check evenly is NOT Dutch. Dutch means everyone paying for themselves. Dont blame the country that has given us windmills and clockwork orange and van gogh and total football for this insidious, hedenostic, selfish american practice.
wow....why the anger?
But "let's go insidious, hedenostic, selfish american treat" is unwieldly. The Dutch just have to suck it.
The Dutch had nothing to do with clockwork orange. Don't expect me to go dutch on the credit with that one.
Signed,
Anthony Burgess.