Salman Rushdie got knighted over the weekend: he’s now Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie.
Predictably, government officials in Pakistan and Iran have come out against honouring the “blaspheming” “apostate” Rushdie. It’s a brand of foaming at the mouth that we’re all too familiar with at this point; in a sense, the hostile fundamentalist reaction validates the strong secularist stance that Rushdie has taken since his reemergence from Fatwa-induced semi-seclusion in 1998. (If these people are burning your effigy, you must be doing something right.)
But actually, there’s another issue I wanted to mention that isn’t getting talked about much in the coverage of Rushdie’s knighthood, which is the fact that Rushdie wasn’t always a “safe” figure for British government officials. In the early 1980s in particular, and throughout the Margaret Thatcher era, Rushdie was known mainly as a critic of the British establishment, not a member. The main issue for Rushdie then was British racism, and he did not mince words in condemning it as well as the people who tolerated it.
This morning I was briefly looking over some of Rushdie’s essays from the 1980s. Some of the strongest work exoriated the policies of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and indicted the pervasiveness of “institutionalized racism” in British society. Two essays in particular stand out, “The New Empire Within Britain,” and “Home Front.” Both are published in Imaginary Homelands: Essays and Criticism, 1981-1991. (Another great essay from that collection is “Outside the Whale” — required reading, though on a slightly different topic. And see this NYT review of the collection as a whole from 1991.)
Here is a long quote from “The New Empire Within Britain” (1982):
[L]et me quote from Margaret Thatcher’s speech at Cheltneham on the third of July, her famous victory address: ‘We have learned something about ourselves, a lesson we desperately need to learn. When we started out, there were the waverers and the fainthears … The people who thought we could no longer do the great things which we once did … that we could never again be what we were. Ther were those who would not admit it … but—in their heart of hearts—they too had their secret fears that it was true: that Britain was no longer the nation that had built an Empire and ruled a quarter of the world. Well, they were wrong.’
There are several interesting aspects to this speech. Remember that it was made by a triumphant Prime Minister at the peak of her popuolarity; a Prime Minister who could claim with complete credibility to be speaking for an overwhelming majority of the elctorate, and who, as even her detractors must admit, has a considerable gift for assessing the national mood. Now if such a leader at such a time felt able to invoke the spirit of imperialism, it was because she knew how central that spirit is to the self-image of white Britons of all classes. I say white Britons because it’s clear that Mrs Thatcher wasn’t addressing the two million or so blacks, who don’t feel quite like that about the Empire. So even her use of the word ‘we’ was an act of racial exclusion, like her other well-known speech about the fear of being ‘swamped’ by immigrants. With such leaders, it’s not surprising that the British are slow to learn the real lessons of their past.
Let me repeat what I said at the beginning: Britain isn’t Nazi Germany. The British Empire isn’t the Third Reich. But in Germany, after the fall of Hitler, heroic attempts were made by many people to purify German though and the German language of the pollution of Nazism. Such acts of cleansing are occasionally necessary in every society. But British thought, British society, has never been cleansed of the filth of imperialism. It’s still there, breeding lice and vermin, waiting for unscrupulous people to exploit it for their own ends. (Read the whole thing)
That was Rushdie in 1982: “British society has never been cleansed of the filth of imperialism.” And it’s by no means the only strong statement he makes about racism and imperialism in “The New Empire Within Britain”; he also goes after the legal system, the police, and the clearly racist quotas the British had enacted in the immigration policy to reduce the number of black and brown immigrants coming to Britain from former colonies.
If we compare Rushdie in 1982 to Rushdie today, it’s clear that the man has changed quite a bit — but it also has to be acknowledged that British society has itself been transformed, perhaps even more radically. Organizations like the National Front are nowhere near as influential as they were in the early 1980s, and a decade of the Labour Party and Tony Blair have changed the political picture for good. But more than anything, what seems different is the way racialized difference (Blacks and Asians vs. the white majority) has been displaced by the religious difference as the most contentious issue of the day. One you move the debate from race to religion, the parameters for who gets seen as an “outsider” and who becomes an “insider” look quite different.




to this i can attest at great length. i did my masters, in london, in the study of empires. my professor/advisor was a man whose entire family had been entrenched in imperial governance - he himself had been born in singapore at a time when his father was a high-placed official in the administration there. so he saw firsthand how the fall of the empire affected the british higher-ups both professionally and personally. although the BE was only one of the several empires we studied, you could see in him this whistfulness for all types of empire. i felt, in many ways, his teachings were somewhat skewed because of that, since it marred his objectiveness. and my fellow british classmates had a really difficult time in admitting that, yes, empire did have severe drawbacks. and it's not just the academics/upper class - i once gave a homeless man a meal and his version of thanks was, 'the sun never set on the british empire' - WTF?
I have been recommending this work for some time now, but apropos ak's comment above this article traces some of the reasons why certain elites are instinctively attracted to colonialism (with its attendant "missions"):
Vivek Chibber, "The Good Empire?"
of course this merely speaks to only one aspect of the post...
So true, "you move the debate from race to religion, the parameters for who gets seen as an “outsider” and who becomes an “insider” look quite different".
England is at a crucial point - from an Anthropological prespective. Social change and how different groups intermingle within that change is quite interesting. What is also interesting is the various government policy - to deal with the rising extermism within UK. To add to that - race relations - although now based on religious differences.
I doubt the core group of outsiders has changed. Before, they were outsiders because of their skin colour now b/c of religion.
I keep thinking that there is a history lesson - unfolding - right there, right now - something North Americans can learn in terms of race relations, religious tolerance and social cohesion, particularly in light of Irag and Afghanistan. One only has to look at sikh extermism in Canada to see that if issues of difference are not resolved - we could very well be the next UK.
There is a gap between the rhetoric needed to win an election and the way in which the economy is actually transformed. No doubt, Thatcher talked of white power. But, in reality, Thatcher actually cut the jobs of several white workers. Finally, the business establishment has welcomed nonwhite money and nonwhite enterpreneurship.
As to religious difference replacing racialized difference: Well, any kind of difference is seized upon by politicians who need to generate rhetoric. If one kind of difference disappears, another kind develops.
A similar kind of thing happened in India, too. Many an Indian politician made a career out of Hindi's hotly-argued role as India's national language. But with the advent of coalition-style politics, north Indian and south Indian politicians could no longer affort to argue about Hindi. Instead, they siezed upon (i) religious differences and (ii) caste differences to generate rhetoric.
I like Rushdie for his somewhat centrist views on Kashmir. Whereas Arundhati Roy spoke of an Indian occupation of Kashmir, Rushdie feels that nobody's hands are clean, and nobody can take the high moral ground.
Great post as always, Amardeep.
I have never lived in the UK but my gut feeling is exactly what you say towards the end. Britain seems to have changed quite a bit. In the 80s they were still a lot more influential in the world. In the last 20 odd years their influence - politically, economically, culturally, etc has diminished a lot and that probably has sunk in as far as the British psyche is concerned. Thus if they still think they can be an imperialist nation, they would be deluding themselves and I would be surprised if a lot of the British thought so. Plus over the years immigration (both permanent and short term workers) and the gradual acceptance that Britain is a more mixed society than the people in the 80s would have liked to believe has probably helped too. Red Snapper could give a lot more insight into this I guess.
actually they still have influence, only they changed their name to Al-Muhajiroun. ever since the jaguar smile, rushdie has become more of a free-thinker and there's been predictable grumblings, and not just from the likes of Anjem Choudary and his ilk, of him being a brown sahib for a while now. i wonder if rushdie's ascension will be a unifying moment for the brits, or one that highlights their differences.
Amardeep, very nice post. I haven't checked out all the links, but I'm going to. The really interesting, and empathetic, and courageous thing about Rushdie's 1980s eloquence on British race relations is that he himself, as he once conceded, was spared the worst of the indignities that were visited on his co-ethnics. He is quite light-skinned, and can pass. That he could nevertheless empathize so completely with those who were of a 'darker hue' speaks very highly of him, in my book.
But I can't help noting that his first three wives were ethnically white, and although he has had a homecoming of sorts with Padma Lakshmi, he is now definitely speaking as an 'insider' in the discourse over the racialized identity of religion (as it is being framed).
When Britons think of a Muslim, they now think mainly - or only - of a brown person. And to a considerable extent, they also think of brown persons as being largely Muslim. So it is the label for the Other that is changing, not the otherization itself. Hating someone for being a racialized Other ('Paki') versus a relgious Other ('Muslim') is much the same in its impact, and the conflation of categories has gone far enough that British Hindus and Sikhs (to whom 'Paki' was also applied) no longer want to be seen as 'Asians' alongside British Muslims. So it is a little disconcerting that in such an atmosphere, he is not being more alert to these developments and therefore more nuanced in his rhetoric.
It is rather hard for me to take Rushdie seriously, when he very openly supported the 2003 U.S invasion of Iraq in his writings.
Amardeep, thanks very much for this post. I did my undergrad thesis on a similar topic, and the changes that are happening in "Black" identity -- now and over the past 15 years -- are just fascinating. I think the British antiracist movement is really at a cross-roads -- it's either going to be breathing its last crippled breath, or it will have to learn how to strategize and reorganize its foundational assumptions. Particularly given the rise of affinity (read: nationalist) organizations that use either origin (e.g. many of the Africanist orgs) or religion as both a rallying point and as a source of difference. I guess another crucial factor is that the face of the "Visible Ethnic Minority" in Britain is changing dramatically.
I disagree politically with Salman Rushdie on a number of things, but his outspoken criticism of the institutional nature of British racism was, at its time, incredible and desperately needed. I wonder how his fellow critics who have rejected knighthood and the OBE feel, however? I'm curious as to how he decided to go through with this given the very incisive derisions of the OBE vis-a-vis formerly colonized people recently.
Oh, also a great read, although hard to get a hold of, is The Empire Strikes Back (ed. Paul Gilroy, et al.). There are just some really tremendous and fascinating essays about the deeper elements of antiracism in the 70s, including the political economy underlying race legislation and racism in the UK.
But more than anything, what seems different is the way racialized difference (Blacks and Asians vs. the white majority) has been displaced by the religious difference as the most contentious issue of the day.
I guess the question I would ask is whether this is really a good change. The parameters of the debate are altered by a shift from focusing on race to focusing on religion, but if anything, religious differences tend to be greater flashpoints for discrimination, violence, etc.
With respect to Rushdie specifically, I wonder whether he's benefiting not so much from the changes in British society, but from his isolation from the Muslim world. That is, when the Muslim world began to see Rushdie as an "other", he became more sympathetic for non-Muslim society in Britain, and therefore more acceptable.
"It is rather hard for me to take Rushdie seriously, when he very openly supported the 2003 U.S invasion of Iraq in his writings."
This was a surprise to me. In a radio interview with NPR, Rushdie predicted that if the US invaded Iraq, it would be mired there for a long time. What I took way from that interview was that he did not find the invasion practical. Are you sure that he openly supported it? Perhaps he supported the invasion idealogically, but rejected it on practical grounds?
"That is, when the Muslim world began to see Rushdie as an "other", he became more sympathetic for non-Muslim society in Britain, and therefore more acceptable."
Good comment
Hating someone for being a racialized Other ('Paki') versus a relgious Other ('Muslim') is much the same in its impact, and the conflation of categories has gone far enough that British Hindus and Sikhs (to whom 'Paki' was also applied) no longer want to be seen as 'Asians' alongside British Muslims.
well, let's not just pin the blame on whites for conflating brown with islam, ergo non-muslim browns want to disassociate from the term "asian." clearly there's some first order reasons that indian origin (sikh, hindu and muslim) asians would want to take a step back from excessive identification with the pakistani subculture in the united kingdom as it is developing.
That is, when the Muslim world began to see Rushdie as an "other", he became more sympathetic for non-Muslim society in Britain, and therefore more acceptable.
let's be explicit: he had a price on his head. translators of his books were killed. i don't think it is easy to imagine for any of us what sort of 'radicalizing' effect that sort of change in one's life situation might induce. i was in rural bangladesh visiting relatives when the rushdie affair broke and was called on to translate tracts which claimed that the satanic verses indulged in orgiastic and perverted depictions of muhammad and his wives (who in the pamphlet i saw were claimed to be prostituted by muhammad in the satanic verses)(.
Chachaji, that's an interesting distinction, though I do tend to think think that religion as a voluntary form of difference makes it an imperfect replacement for race, which is inscribed on the body. The racialization of religious difference probably does happen at times, but these days it seems like much of the debate about religious minority status hinges around symbolic rights -- such as the debate that ensued following Jack Straw's comments on the full-body Veil -- not so much institutionalized discrimination.
Cyrus, we've discussed Rushdie's famous/infamous Op-Ed from November 1, 2002 before at SM. I disagreed with him then, and I think it's maybe time for him to come out and make a new statement where he (hopefully) acknowledges what a disaster this war has turned out to be. But it needs to be noted that even in 2002, he did give a good list of reasons to worry about how the war would ultimately be executed. Even if he was wrong on this major event, I still take him quite seriously on the issues he is strongly committed to, including the need for secularism all over the world.
So you simply dismiss people who may disagree with you as "not serious"?
Me too.
Amardeep,
What a great post.
However,I am curious about the statement above. In the Western world,will a white male ever be seen as an outsider ? I mean when you consider experiences such as traveling ,airports etc
I think race will always color interaction in public places. Who do you think TSA finds more threatening : A white skin-head or a bearded brown man?
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=460&Pos=1&ColRank=1&Rank=326
"The Indian group was religiously diverse: 45 per cent of Indians were Hindu, 29 per cent Sikh and a further 13 per cent Muslim. In contrast the Pakistani and Bangladeshi groups were more homogeneous, Muslims accounting for 92 per cent of each ethnic group."
Hi Camille - what I meant was that Rushdie can and does pass for non-desi, in fact, 'white', based just on skin color perception, just in general situations - he's altogether too famous now and so a very familiar face to many - but before all that, he could pass as 'white' European in a crowd, or in a store or such. It's pretty obvious if you look at him in color photographs.
It's a separate issue whether Britons made distinctions between lighter and darker skinned identifiable non-whites. I think they did, still do, but that's not what I was referring to.
Hi Camille - what I meant was that Rushdie can and does pass for non-desi, in fact, 'white', based just on skin color perception, just in general situations - he's altogether too famous now and so a very familiar face to many - but before all that, he could pass as 'white' European in a crowd, or in a store or such. It's pretty obvious if you look at him in color photographs.
i know of people who weren't familiar with him who assumed he was white from photos. e.g., "why does that dude have a weird name like that?"
QUESTION for people who know how the "British honours" system works: Is it necessarily the case that all people who are awarded the "Knight Bachelor" honor are necessarily also "Officers of the British Empire"?
If you take a look at the Queen's Birthday Honours List from the British government's website (the actual full list is at the London Gazette [PDF]), Rushdie is listed as a "Knight Bachelor," and there is a separate section for CBE, OBE, and MBE. (Christiane Amanpour's name is down on the CBE list for instance.)
The reason I ask the question is this: it's one thing to accept an award of Knight Bachelor; it's something a little difference to accept "Officer of the British Empire"!
chachaji, I guess at best I assumed he could pass as Turkish ;) But I suppose expectations/perceptions are different when you've grown up already knowing someone's (ethnic) backstory, you know?
But come on, a great deal of this is because of the actual religious makeup of each respective country! Of course the overwhelming majority of migrants from Pakistan/Bangladesh are going to be Muslim! Seems like kind of a "duh" statement, no?When I was at the Conference for the Elimination of Racism in London, folks had an entire session devoted to how the discussion of "Muslims" was the same old story (racism) in new clothes. While I generally agree with the argument presented, I think it's also interesting to see how the racialized body is represented in other terms. In many ways, I feel like this helps absolve the state of any responsibility. In the 90s, the Brit gov't itself came out with several reports showing that racism was a driving force in poverty, mistreatment, and civil unrest. Today, folks frame the conversation in terms of religion. It's much easier to write off religious views as "irreconcilable" than to write off racism, which is so blatantly (esp in the UK) a social problem. When we look at the archetype of the angry brown (young) Muslim man, do people ask the same questions they did in the 80s, i.e. why do Bangladeshi and Pakistani Muslim communities have much higher rates of unemployment and worse levels of education? Why are so many "self employed," and what institutions limit their access to participation in the economy and the state? Why are VMEs so underrepresented, generally, in political and electoral bodies? It seems, to me, that many of the conditions underlying difference and disadvantage in the UK have not changed as dramatically as it seems for some.
My understanding is that "Knight Bachelor" is not the same as OBE, because OBE is one of the Orders of Chivalry, and I believe Knight Bachelor is not.
Amardeep, I'll join the chorus of accolades on your post. Very interesting commentary and links! I do have one question: for brown Asians, how different is racial and religious discrimination in practice, today? I had relatives who lived in London in the early 90s and were quite viciously abused as Pakis on multiple instances. Does that kind of thing still go on? Or has it been replaced by "discriminating" discrimination against people of some religions alone (well, Islam)? I want to emphasize that I don't mean this question in any kind of provocative fashion.
As for Poms with imperialist yearnings, I just put them down by referring to this as the British Empire. It usually works.
Here is Priyamvada Gopal's take on how Salman Rushdie evolved/changed over the years.
Camille, do you have a theory on why there is a disparity between Hindu & Muslim "Asians" in terms of education etc ? I have enough relatives who have had negative experiences in the UK to know that racism is a significant part of the problem, but I do believe there is a cultural component as well
amardeep, if indira gandhi got knighted i think the sikhs would have something to say about that too...so dont make this seem like some crazy fundamentalist issue, i as a moderate also wouldn't mind seeing rushdie slapped across the face for insulting islam...
"Camille, do you have a theory on why there is a disparity between Hindu & Muslim "Asians" in terms of education etc ?"
there isn't really a theory for this issue. It is a historical one. When the British came and ousted the Mughals from power, the Muslims resisted the British forms of Education and refused to learn the "kaffir's" English. Meanwhile, the Hindus were much faster in grabbing up the new jobs that the British had to offer and learned English. It was not till about 50-100 years after the British Raj that the Muslims let their gaurds down. This gap is what continues today in Pakistan and Bangladesh and even in India, the Muslim communities are far less educated than the Hindus.
loucie, I'm not sure, really. I don't think it's cultural factors, per se, between Hindus and Muslims. There are a lot of differences in settlement; e.g. Pakistanis are one of the most spread out ethnic groups in the UK -- they settled all over the island, whereas Hindus/Sikhs settled predominantly in London. Within London itself there are clear ethnic neighborhoods (e.g. Southall, which some would argue is becoming more and more Afghani). It'll take me some time, but there's a great page on the British Library web site that breaks down some of these "population factors" across London and across the UK more broadly.
Additionally, I have a feeling that if you look at "earlier immigrants" (i.e. Indian immigrants -- Hindu, Sikh, AND Muslim) they should all be, on average, doing better than "younger immigrants" (Pakistanis, Kurds, Bangladeshis). An element of this is of course Britain's changing immigration policies as well. There's a group that does a "National Assessment of Ethnic Minorities" every 5-10 years. While their early methodology leaves a lot to be desired (I think their sample size is altogether way too small), I personally think racial and religious discrimination have much more to do with it. Up until the 1980s, the UK was incredibly strict about the pre-existing qualifications immigrants had to have to enter from the Caribbean, South Asia, and Africa. Just as we see migration skewed towards professional and educated elites in the 1960s in the U.S., something very similar existed in the UK (with the exception of wife sponsorship -- men weren't included in the "spouse" category until the late 1970s, I think). The only thing left, all else equal, is active exclusion from the educational and economic system. We see this especially today among Bangladeshis in the UK.
Also, while Hinduism and Sikhi are clearly different from Christianity, Islam has been derogated and labeled as much more "scary." Hinduism and Sikhi are just derided (by making fun of things like the cow, Ganesh, turbans, etc.). One group is put down, the other is labeled a threat. However, if you look at violent (race-based) attacks across the 1990s, members of all VME groups (and within these groups, from all religions) were attacked regularly. They're all targets at the end of the day, but representations of Muslims in the media in the UK seem to get an added kick in the pants for being even more "deviant" from what is seen as the "norm" (i.e. white) for a Briton.
# 26 ,
Incorrect analogy.
Indira Gandhi did get the Bharat Ratna and I don't remember any Sikh protests over it.
It's ironic. British racism was such a central theme of the book that started all of this.
amardeep, if indira gandhi got knighted i think the sikhs would have something to say about that too...
India Gandhi attacked a temple that ended up killing a lot of people. Rushdie wrote a book. There is no comparison.
No comments yet on the response from the practitioners of the religion of submission regarding this event?
Also, the Indira Gandhi analogy would not hold. It's also a little logically bizarre (the leader of a free democracy pledging fealty to the ruler of another world power?).
Indira Gandhi did get the Bharat Ratna and I don't remember any Sikh protests over it.
I dont know enough about Indira Gandhi but all fair minded people should be outraged if her son Rajiv Gandhi was given an award. IMO Rajiv Gandhi was no different than Narender Modi.
oh, why didn't he turn it down. vidia i understand, but rushdie?
Camille, do you have a theory on why there is a disparity between Hindu & Muslim "Asians" in terms of education etc ?
Almost half of Pakistani immigrants to UK are from Mirpur and with extremely high levels of first cousin marriage from Pakistan, there are a still a lot of households where at least one parent was raised in a village in Pakistan.
A lot of the Bangladeshis are from Silhet which is similar to Mirpur in soms ways.
who cares about sir salmon when we already have king salmon
we have a sir mick. so what did kieth richards do? did they not offer him one? he did co-write brown suger, you know.
Indira Gandhi did get the Bharat Ratna and I don't remember any Sikh protests over it.
runa, she was given the award in 1971, about 15 years before she ordered the attacks on the golden temple, ur point is irrelevant...and yea attacking a holy site is different from what rushdie said...but you also must understand, that in Islam, disrespecting the prophet is one of the worst things you can do against Islam...it is like how in India, someone drew a picture of themselves and it was identical to the one of the Sikh Gurus, it is disrespect...period...
Don't you mean Sanjay Gandhi? Turkmen Gate, emergency, "family planning" — just a few highlights from his distinguished career.
I meant Rajiv Gandhi for his shameless behavior during the Sikh massacre on the streets of Delhi. Btw how many liberal democracies have a mass scale slaughter of minorities in their capital city.
but you also must understand, that in Islam, disrespecting the prophet is one of the worst things you can do against Islam...
Noo york, first of all, did you ever read "The Satanic Verses"? If not, you should -- you might be surprised by what Rushdie actually is trying to do. In my view he is much more critical of absolutist interpretations of Islam than he is of Islam proper.
Secondly, it's fine if you're offended by something Rushdie said about Islam (that is, presuming that you know what he actually said). But the question really is, what is your response? Do you respect and defend his right to have said it, or do you allow people like the Ayatollah Khomeini to take the law into their own hands? If you look at my postings related to other religions, including Hinduism and Sikhism, I think you'll find I've been pretty consistent as a defender of the freedom of speech, including the freedom to say offensive things.
You labeled yourself a "moderate" -- I think the real test of moderation is this: who do you want to slap more, the Ayatollah Khomeini, for writing a statement that directly led to the deaths of two innocent individuals (not to mention the thousands of innocent people killed in and after the Iranian revolution... but that's another story), or Salman Rushdie, who merely expressed a point of view in a novel? If you still say Rushdie, there's no point continuing this conversation.
But come on, a great deal of this is because of the actual religious makeup of each respective country! Of course the overwhelming majority of migrants from Pakistan/Bangladesh are going to be Muslim! Seems like kind of a "duh" statement, no?
29% of indians are sikh? speaking of "duh."
i am a moderate by Islamic standards, not the west's, so yea, conversation over.
Don't you mean Sanjay Gandhi? Turkmen Gate, emergency, "family planning" — just a few highlights from his distinguished career.
Turkmen Gate: What was that?
Of course the overwhelming majority of migrants from Pakistan/Bangladesh are going to be Muslim!
oh, and of course the migrants from these countries aren't representative. they're disproportionately from mirpur and sylhet. another "duh."
I have no love for Indira Gandhi. She was an enemy of individual liberty. But she attacked a Sikh holy place that was already tainted by the presence of armed Sikh rebels. People of all religions - regardless of your cause, if you take up arms and do not want your holy places attacked, then stay the hell away from such places.
What was worse than that was Rajiv Gandhi's government condoning a brutal massacre of many Sikhs, especially in Delhi, in the days after Indira Gandhi's assassination. It was not even a two sided thing like many Hindu Muslim conflicts. It was one sided massacre. I wonder why none of the militants of that period organized a vigilante attacks on the ministers that organized such brutalities. If they were going to be violent, why not at least be vigilante about it.
It's like these Osama Bin Laden type loons. If you ahve a problem with the Cheneys of the world, go after them, not after innocent citizens(Mind you, I do NOT condone this, but if I was a fundamentlist, then the Cheneys of the world would be my preferred target. At least I can get support in some quarters ).
c'mon. he looks like jack nicholson. plus with the fatwa he's even more of a bad boy than jack. too bad he didn't add to his badness by turning down the knighthood like sartre did to the nobel. i hear sartre groupies tripled after that. and sir mick hasn't been doing so well of late. the only way he can regain his coolness is to be found dead in a harlem tenement shot by someones husband...or wife. but i digress.
Additionally, I have a feeling that if you look at "earlier immigrants" (i.e. Indian immigrants -- Hindu, Sikh, AND Muslim) they should all be, on average, doing better than "younger immigrants" (Pakistanis, Kurds, Bangladeshis).
i assume the east african refugees get classified as "indian." if you limit muslims to just ismailis, they actually do rather well (one reason why "indian" muslims do much better than others). the main issue i have is with sikhs vs. mirpuris. did the two groups come with different skillsets? because they "look" the same in terms of skin color.
but you also must understand, that in Islam, disrespecting the prophet is one of the worst things you can do against Islam
and muslims must understand that other people have that concept called 'freedom of speech'.
Beyond the fact that such things make the newspapers, it's hard to see how Rushdie's becoming a Knight Bachelor matters. Such orders have been given out will-nilly for a long time, like honorary degrees. Rushdie shared this year's slate with Joe Cocker, who got an OBE. Joe Cocker, the voice behind the execrable "You Are So Beautiful" and "Love Lifts Us Up Where We Belong."
When Sanjeev Bhaskar (The Kumars at No. 42) got his OBE last year, he said he was going to do with it what any good British Asian would do--sell it on Ebay.
and muslims must understand that other people have that concept called 'freedom of speech'.
i think it is diff. in countries not the USofA. they "respect" but don't "worship" it. the riots over the play which offended sikhs in england a few years back shows that it isn't a muslim issue. some of the people interviewed said straight out that "free speech has limits." it is just the william donohue/catholic league mentality, and it is normative world wide. free speech on principle is an aberration.
I think Sikhs are largely "overrepresented" because:
1. Of their high numbers in the military (and consequent preference in early migration schemes)
2. Partition and its demographic fallout resulting in a large number of Sikhs leaving Punjab in general. Another large group who left were Bengalis (Hindus and Muslims) who were divided by the E. Pakistan/India partition -- for immigration purposes they are classified as Indians, not Pakistanis in most UK records.
3. Time effects from being one of the "first migrant" communities vis-a-vis reunification, etc.
But also, when looking at early Indian migration (Partition onwards), the numbers are comparatively skewed, i.e. they generally reflect the religious diversity of the areas from which people were emigrating. This also explains why things have skewed in other directions over time. You see the Muslim immigrant pop overtake the Hindu pop as % of (desi) migrants to the UK around the mid-1970s, and you see another big bump in the Muslim population during the (Bangladeshi) war of independence. You also see a bump in the number of Hindus migrating when Idi Amin kicks desis out of Uganda. I really think geopolitical circumstances had a lot to do with the skewed numbers of people petitioning for immigration.
free speech on principle is an aberration
sadly enough.
http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003354.html
Sewa Singh Mandha, the chairman of the Council of Sikh Gurdwaras, said of the theatre: “They keep saying the playwright has the right to her imagination but these imaginations could harm a community. This play will not help race relations in the city.”
and of course, it brought the races and religions together:
But the play itself came under fire from Birmingham's Roman Catholic Archbishop, who described it as offensive to all faiths.
In a statement, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols said: "In recent weeks the Sikh community has acted in a reasonable and measured way in representing their deep concerns to the Birmingham Repertory Theatre.
"I regret that the Repertory Theatre, in the interests of the common good, has not been more responsive. Such a deliberate, even if fictional, violation of the sacred place of the Sikh religion demeans the sacred places of every religion."
ACD # 34 /noo york
Personally, I felt the Bharat Ratna was devalued the minute politicans started awarding it to other politicians ( see the list after 1990 to see the increase in quantity awarded)
Rajiv Gandhi was awarded the Bharat Ratna posthumously in 1991
.You also see a bump in the number of Hindus migrating when Idi Amin kicks desis out of Uganda.
well, my impression was that an enormous number of the gujaratis (though not majority) in uganda were ismailis. in zimbabwe and south africa the gujarati merchant class is muslim, in tanzania and kenya it is hindu. re: bangladeshi immigrants, 92% is an under representation of hindus non-trivially. the low bound in bangladesh for hindus today is 10%, but say in 1980 it would be 15%. and there are regional biases. southwest bangladesh has many more hindus than northeast bangladesh (sylhet) from what i recall. the immigrant stream is not necessarily representative at all as you note with indians. most arab immigrants to the USA until the past decade were christian. most iranians in LA are jewish.
See Alleged role during Emergency. His bias against Muslims is quite well known. Unfortunately, there aren’t many credible accounts of his wild ways. To be fair, he wasn’t on the Hussain Jr., Chouchesku Jr. level, but that’s not saying much.
Anyone who can read Marathi should definitely check out Sattandh (trans. - Blinded by Power).
Compared to him, Rajiv Gandhi was a saint.
It's all in the eyes of the beholder, and which way the wind blows.
Laju K.
http://www.lajuk.blogspot.com
As far as Sikhs vs. Mirpuri Muslims, I don't know enough to say. Most of the Sikhs I've met in the UK are from Lahore or doaba. That may mean nothing whatsoever since it's strictly anecdotal.
Shouldn't he be Sir Ahmed? No, seriously. Do you get to choose which of your names gets used after the "Sir"? If so, could that name be your last name, which may be your "name of christening" as in V V S Laxman?
Sorry to thread-jack : Camille, I have a question on Dharavi. Could you let me know your email address or send me an email? Thanks.
did not a substantial number of these ismailis migrate to canada?
noo york
Your comparison of Salman Rushdie to Indira Gandhi is quite bizarre.
In what sense can Salman Rushdie be compared to an indian politician, a prime minister no less! famous for her ruthlessness and cunning? Someone who, in addition to a few positive achievements, will always be linked to first pandering to sikh extremists and then using extreme force to attack the golden temple. And I haven't even gotten to her use of "license raj" to enslave indians economically or to her political heirs participation in the violence against innocent sikhs.
If you are a "moderate", I am the Rani of Jhansi.
and muslims must understand that other people have that concept called 'freedom of speech'.
and those who insult islam through free speech must understand that they will probably get shot, blown up, or their asses kicked, because freedom of speech is not in every country, but muslims are...common sense people. lets try it.
Manju, "he (Rushdie) looks like Jack Nicholson..." THAT'S WHO I keep thinking of when I see his picture. Been happening for years, and I just couldn't place the resemblance. Thanks.
btw, you're right. Turning it down would have been a good career move.
shot, blown up, or their asses kicked, because freedom of speech is not in every country, but muslims are...common sense people. lets try it.
LOL. go drink your prophet's urine and chill.
btw, I read once Rushdie is of Iranian descent, which may be why he doesn't look especially desi.
i diddnt say i condone this, i am just saying that is what happens when people expect the Muslim world to just "be down" with the concept of free speech, it is too foreign to most of them, but yea, thanks for attempting to insult me and Islam, go you!
hmm....interesting that you think a proportional response to speech (as disrepectful or racist as it sometimes may be) is violence and fatality. you know what else is everywhere, noo york - laws. and the vast majority of countries and their laws will not be willing to defend a muslim's 'right' to kill someone in these circumstances. muslims committing violence in a country that recognizes free speech = bad news for the those muslims. common sense - go figure.
Prasad, I understand. I apologize, I didn't mean to insinuate that you were arguing that "Sikhs were asking for it." It's just that, in the past on SM, conversations re: Indira Gandhi, 1984, and the bombing of Harmandar Sahib have quickly devolved into just that argument. It seems that just bringing up the topic has opened the doors for trolls who move towards a vehement anti-Sikh conversation very very quickly on this site. I was just trying to avoid that fallout, particularly since many of us seem to agree that noo york's example is not analogous to the case of Salman Rushdie.
I believe that proper etiquette requires that you are addressed by your first name. In this case, he may be "Sir Salman" because that's the name he goes by, but it's still a "first name" if that makes sense. "Sir Rushdie," by comparison, would be inappropriate. Actually, because knights bachelor are not a part of the orders of chivalry, I think even allowing them to go by "Sir" is a courtesy -- they are not entitled to use that phrase by virtue of their membership alone.noo york, you bring up a good point. and it is a good argument for why western nations should severely limit immigrations from muslim countries. at least if you believe that the ability to critique religion is an essential part of individual liberty.
p.s. people have expressed surprise and concern for me because i criticize islam on a regular basis on my weblogs. people close to me are worried about a nutso seeking me out. the probability is very low, but it is probably there. the fact that i am from a muslim cultural background doesn't help, and most threatening emails bring that issue up.
razib, ur a deuche, have a nice day.
also, speaking of offense. when i was an outspoken atheist as an undergraduate some muslims i met expressed offense at my existence ;-) e.g., being an atheist from a muslim background is simply not acceptable (we know what the accepted penalty for apostates in islam is), and caused emotional discomfort in people i would meet from muslim countries. i think some of the same is at work with salman rushdie, and some were very explicit about this. his existence is not optimal (being an atheist), but his criticism/analysis of islam simply was over the line.
razib, ur a deuche, have a nice day.
i may not agree with your opinion, but i will defend your right to have one!
i may not agree with your opinion, but i will defend your right to have one!
even if it entails blowing you up? :)
Razib
even if it entails blowing you up? :)
you're the lawyer. when is it clear and present danger?
Razib
i'm not that old.
Razib, I think it brave of you to say that Western Countries should limit immigration from muslim countries. I just want to let you know that I back you 100% there.
I'm not surprised by "moderate" "noo york"'s comments. Recently I came across a news item that "Ghazi Ilam din" (who killed a blasphemer in the 1920s) was defended by Jinnah and Iqbal called him a "shaheed".
And I have been told that Jinnah and Iqbal are "moderate secularists". :-)
Razib, I think it brave of you to say that Western Countries should limit immigration from muslim countries. I just want to let you know that I back you 100% there.
why is that brave? is that an insult to the prophet?
"the prophet said that it is incumbent upon the kuffar that they should submit themselves to open borders so that the ummah shall sweep all before them" ;-)
Does this include limiting immigration from India?
Does this include limiting immigration from India?
not in the world where razib-is-god (ie, the instrumentalist rationale isn't to elminate muslims coming in period, but reduce the large numbers).
razib,
are you a fan of Robert Spencer at all?
He's come up with the same basic position as you.
Noo York, thank you for your explanation regarding us kaffirs slavishly taking up English and the "white man's magic"(i.e. science) as the basis for the divergence in achievement. But I don't understand this completely because as we all know Avicenna is the founder of modern allopathic medicine. As such, why don't madrassas in Pakistani Punjab produce more submissions in the Lancet or JAMA ? Punjabi/Urdu to English translators are fairly easy to come by.
are you a fan of Robert Spencer at all?
we agree on some points. i'm not a fan of his "scholarship" ;-) we have some differences in our premises.
Noo york has a point, freedom of speech is no excuse to taunt one of the most revered figures in Islam. It doesn't give you the right to insult something that people has had as a part of their lives for soo long its just 'common sense'.
But again, The Ayatollah's fatwa is pretty much paramount to attempted murder, There is a way to lodge a protest and murder or torture is not one of them. I've seen my fair share of people making fun of hindu idols through cartoons or jimi hendrix ganja smoking posters, but i'm not going to condone their assasination. If a muslim body had lodged an official protest with the British government and argue their point of view in a politically viable manner that would be acceptable.
Noo york has a point, freedom of speech is no excuse to taunt one of the most revered figures in Islam. It doesn't give you the right to insult something that people has had as a part of their lives for soo long its just 'common sense'.
correct on one, it isn't an excuse, but wrong on two, it does give you the right. what some revere others find abominable. there's no shame in that, and no need for an excuse (just as muslims find hindu idols abominable, they are entitled to their opinion and like take umbrage if hindus offered their hurt feelings as a reason why they must cease declaring their superiority to the 'idolaters').
.If a muslim body had lodged an official protest with the British government and argue their point of view in a politically viable manner that would be acceptable.
that's an interesting case. some of them considered it, but the blasphemy laws applied to christianity (and i think judaism?) only at the time. but another issue is that those most offended are also the ones least likely to care or respect kuffar legal channels.
are you a fan of Robert Spencer at all?
we agree on some points. i'm not a fan of his "scholarship" ;-) we have some differences in our premises.
Razib is being too kind to Robert Spencer. Everybody agrees with everybody on some points.
Thanks for bringing this up Ponniyan Selvan. It's become fashionable these days to say there is no danger of fundamentalists coming to power in Pakistan via elections as "moderate" or "secular" parties have always taken the majority of the electorate. But they conveniently neglect to define what a moderate or secularist is in the Pakistani context where all major parties stand by the "right" of Muslims to demand their own state wherever they are in the numerical majority.
sems like he should make some attempt to sound as if he's one of those people 'searching' for 'moderate' muslims to carry his torch but it doesn't seem, from his online work, that he's really into 'big-tent' anti-jihadism and more into convincing people that he is indeed doing serious (peer-reviewable) scholarship.
Rushdie's books suck ass, they are really terrible. like that Orhan Pamuk clown, or James Joyce - difficult for the sake of it. He doesn't deserve any award. And of course western countries should limit immigration, especially from low IQ parts of the world.
he's a dip and knighthood is a stupid dippy high-stakes game of dungeons and dragons. so let the new commander of the british empire go defend his queen in iraq.
Books should offer thrilling plots and emotional depth. Satire is the the lowest form of writing, the last refuge of the scoundrel.
what, like "Cuchulkhan-stan"?
how exactly do they, to use your most eloquent description, "suck ass"?
was it the over-use of colloquial terminology or did run-on prose style annoy you?
we're all dying to know how the world got it so wrong!
at this point i would like to restate my constant point on this site. the majority of the people on it are anti-muslim, anti-pakistani. if you guys think i am crazy, just read the comments. amardeep, you guys are so quick to delete comments of people who say anything anti-hindu or pakistani, and yet people like Razib, open anti-Islamic are allowed to roam free on this site...i think it is pathetic, and before you all start linking funny little websites in response to my comments, how about instead of being dicks, you actually realize what i am saying is very true...the fact that this man, salman rushdie, committed blasphemy, and is being given one of the world's highest honors, is rediculous...and for you people to act all suprised that the Muslim world is angry, just shows how ignorant you are about reality...p.s. dont you guys have jobs? it seems like you comment at least twice an hour on this site...i am officially boycotting this site, as well as telling my friends to do the same, it serves not the south-asian community, but the hindu indian community...
Interesting.... thanks for the that gem. Its only the fame of Rushdie as an author that caused this ruckus. I read a Science Fiction story selected in an anthology of 'Best SF of 2006' that was about a 'what if' scenario. The synopsis :
'Roman officer, sent to Mecca meets a man in a crowd during a speech. He stands out due to his personal aura and charisma. Man invites officer to his house to break bread and tells Roman officer about his ideas and his beliefs and his concept of society and religion. Officer recognizes the individual for the great man he will become and forsees the threat he poses to the empire. Officer sets up an ambush and murders the red haired man to ensure the empire's hold in the Middle east'
First person narration, i doubt that the Ayatollah is a member of the Science Fiction society. If he was we would have a new Fatwa.
Rushdie's books suck ass, they are really terrible. like that Orhan Pamuk clown, or James Joyce
At the risk of being labeled anti-streamofconsciousness, I think it's unfair to club Rushdie and Pamuk with Joyce. Surely Rushdie's and Pamuk's s works are more accessible than any part of Ulysses.
i am officially boycotting this site, as well as telling my friends to do the same
what a loss!!!
Oh, I thought razib was this kind of deu(ts)che.
I kind of wonder why folks don't just "wipe their hands" of you, you know? I mean, you are clearly an atheist, therefore not a Muslim, and thus not a threat to the practice of Islam, right? :)I really don't think Islam is inherently anti free speech, nor do I think it inherently promotes stupidity (i.e. the belief that it is ok and a good idea to beat someone up for saying something disparaging or something you disagree with). Perhaps we should not resort to reductionist arguments and make a distinction between Islam and the politics of countries who claim to represent Islam through their political structure? Not that I really want to engage in a protracted debate about western Enlightenment thought vs. Islam.
Noo York,
awww, the feelings are hurt.
won't you pray for us? The unsaved, heathen, haram, infidel SM regulars? Or better yet, obey the prophet by mounting an armed campaign to convert all of North America. Yippee!!! Forced conversions for EVERYONE!!!
Where's that SpoorLam dude when you need him? :)
Wow...so much veiled racism in this site is really almost surprising. Razib, I've been reading this site for a while and I think your comments are laughably pathetic usually. The number of times you describe people, populations using genetics like they are participants in a dog show...are you in undergrad biology or something?
You're obviously proud of being an atheist, and that's really great for you. Whatever rocks your boat, but really "limiting immigration from muslim countries"? Why can't we just deport all the muslims who are here already? I'm sure the BNP would be very sympathetic to you.
Where the hell are you quoting from anyway "the prophet said that it is incumbent upon the kuffar that they should submit themselves to open borders so that the ummah shall sweep all before them"??
And Amardeep,
It's really ironic that for someone who claims to value free speech you can admire Rushdie. Free speech is really all about creating dialogue between different people. When someone says something filthy or clearly offensive it only alienates a group of people from the dialogue. That really does not help anybody at all. Rushdie is a person who obviously knew how his work would be recieved, he knew the Muslim world well enough to know that he would create a great deal of controversy. He craved noteriety and he achieved it.
And please! Will you stop with the Ayatollah Khomeni already! I can honestly say that most Muslims find the practice of Islam in Iran altogether alien. Ayatollah Khomeni and his edicts and his tracts are something more inspired by culture than religion. I hate when people bring up the Ayatollah in discussions about Islam...it's like bringing up Hitler while talking about Lutheranism. It really reveals a sort of intellectual bankruptcy in the bringer-upper.
hema, amen to that. I hate Ulysses in all its overrated, masturbatory (literal and figurative) glory.
to go with your common sense argument, aren't muslims getting "shot, blown up, or their asses kicked" because they don't respect free speech? then razib throws out a common sensical solution and you scream bloody murder. for you people to act all suprised that the liberal world is angry, just shows how ignorant you are about reality.
Why the quotes around the word apostate? Isn't Rushdie an out-and-out atheist?
Or better yet, obey the prophet by mounting an armed campaign to convert all of North America.
I dont think Muhammad (sallallahowalehowassalam) was much interested in conversions. He was more interested in forming alliances which would benefit his Quraish tribe. When the fellow Quraishs moved from Mecca to Medina, Muhammad encouraged the Medina people to accomodate the Meccans. He made alliances with the non-Muslims and as long as his fellow Meccans were top dogs in Medina, he was okay with Non-Muslims living next to him. He was quite a tribalist at most levels.
I also wish folks wouldn't boycott the site. I say this because, without alternative voices/dialogue, how will conversation open up? At the same time, I understand that sometimes things feel too offensive to want to continue with a group of people.
Rezia, thanks for your comment and for calling a spade a spade.
I kind of wonder why folks don't just "wipe their hands" of you, you know? I mean, you are clearly an atheist, therefore not a Muslim, and thus not a threat to the practice of Islam, right? :)
the arguments in islamic jurisprudence is that public apostasy is treason. it sets the precedent that islam is voluntary and might encourage other defection and so cause social disorder. there is, i think, a tacit understanding that personal atheism is to be tolerated. the problem is to be public about your disbelief.
Perhaps we should not resort to reductionist arguments and make a distinction between Islam and the politics of countries who claim to represent Islam through their political structure?
well, i am a reductionist, but i'm not an essentialist regarding islam. i think i can, and will, change, just as christianity as changed. but i also don't think islam has any reality apart as an ideal from the way people practice it. the fact is that it is commonly agreed in muslim circles to a high proportion that apostates should be killed (though there is disagreement to the amount of time allowed for repentance and reversion). how many muslim majority countries could i go into the public market and declare that god is dead without being killed or thrown in jail? (perhaps turkey?) it is one thing to say that
a) islam does not entail anything specific (which i generally believe)
b) but another to ignore the real consequences of the powerful central tradition of how the believers behave
I think the fatwa was more 'notoriety' than he wished for or deserved. Did you see the world's Christian leaders denouncing the discoverers of the Gospels of Judas? Or calling for the death of Dan Brown for suggesting, in a bit of fiction, that Jesus was a procreating human being? There are innumerable works that seek to expand the narratives presented in the King James bible and none of them, produced in the last 50 years, have produced the reaction that Rushdie's book received.
The fatwa was unique in that it represented an international censorship of a work not even written in the languages spoken by the countries who putatively supported this fatwa.
# 100 Noo York
Seriously dude, you are right. Everyone here hates Muslims. But they also hate Brahmins, non-brahmins, DBDs( who they call unmentionable names),ABDs ,women, men , children.
Basically they are all equal opportunity offenders - they hate everyone regardless of caste, creed, religion .So that kinda makes them very virtuous in a sick ,twisted way.
Stick around - I am sure you will see that I am right !
at this point i would like to restate my constant point on this site. the majority of the people on it are anti-muslim, anti-pakistani. if you guys think i am crazy, just read the comments.
noo york, you are the one who said it was "common sense" by Muslim standards for people to blow up or kill people who defame Islam. If I, a non-Muslim had said that people would be screaming for my head for stereotyping Muslims, and correctly so.
Rushdie is a wordsmith without sense, gifted with an astronomical verbal IQ, he uses it only to play 'intelligent' little word-games. I found Pamuk's astonishingly bad and equally overrated My Name Is Red to be in similar territory, plotless and pointless. But you're right Hema, Joyce belongs in a different universe altogether. I despise most forms of modernism, Pamuk and Rushdie prostitute themselves to the idiotic western chatterati.
People,
I do not think Noo York condoned any type of violent activity. He is protesting however against Salman Rushdie's portrayal of the prophet. As far as Islamic standards that is moderation, he hasn't called for the mans head. He has only protested over his Knighthood in Britain where a large number of muslims live. I believe he is justified is making his protest.
Noo York
Leaving the site isn't going to help matters, argue your point and stick to it. You'll find supporters to your point of view, just not in the space of four hrs.
come on, i was set upon in a much more intense fashion when I started commenting and dropping eggs like this one,
really? so how much should 'blasphemy,' (i.e. free speech) be penalized? he wasn't yelling 'fire' in a theater he was writing a piece of fiction. When did that become a crime? Or is assuming that it should be not characteristic of someone who should be lampooned/excoriated?
I don't think thats what he meant, I read it as that its common sense that a majority of people would be offended if someone insulted a revered figure in their religion. Whether they actually read "The Satanic Verses" or not is a whole another story.
isn't the fatwa still on? why hasn't anyone gotten to him? it can't be that hard, he's all over the place.
Noo York, don't leave. It's not because of your faith but because you are Russo-Scythian and this site is notoriously anti-Scythite. People are just scared of things that are different.
Why can't we just deport all the muslims who are here already?
well, cuz they're citizens.
I'm sure the BNP would be very sympathetic to you.
and muslims are also very sympathetic to me. so i have two choices, the BNP or the majority of muslims who think that my death is the requirement of their religion? no thanks
Where the hell are you quoting from anyway "the prophet said that it is incumbent upon the kuffar that they should submit themselves to open borders so that the ummah shall sweep all before them"??
is humor and satire against islam? oops, i forget, against the prophet....
does this mean that one should avoid expressing one's thoughts? does this also mean that if there is a group that disagrees with you, and whose negative reaction is predictable, the only possible reason you published your thought was for that notoriety? please. although i wouldn't completely set aside your assertion, the idea that he published this thought for nothing more than publicity is absurd. the whole concept of free speech stems from the idea that both the bad and the good can be stated. and i strongly subscribe to holmes' marketplace of ideas concept - those statements that have no value will naturally be disregarded by society. as to which society - well, that is the rub - some statements have far more value in certain societies. whatever the case may be, surely you are not condoning noo york's suggestion that fatal violence is a proportional response to such comments? in my mind, that is giving way too much importance to the speaker.
i'm a bit confused, as i thought razib's suggestion was a. not only somewhat of a joke, but b. directly in response to noo york's statement that muslims are in every country, and will act violently in every country when islam is challenged. thus, by noo york's own logic, limiting the muslims in every country will avoid the violent inevitabilities that he predicts.
Ironically, doesn't the knighthood ceremony involve kneeling before a person wielding a sword.. ?
Camille, thanks for the explanation in #28. It was my sense too that religious discrimination is the icing on the racial discrimination cake, right now.
For you aficionados of assassination related humor, here's one that's guaranteed to kill 'em at a dinner party:
How do you know Rajiv Gandhi had dandruff?
Because all they found of him was his Head and Shoulders.
Are you sure it is not an irono-hyperbolic joke about the fact that Salman of all people got an honor, so Razib should be a duke?
camille, hema, and yes I say yes I will yes.
"I think the fatwa was more 'notoriety' than he wished for or deserved. Did you see the world's Christian leaders denouncing the discoverers of the Gospels of Judas? Or calling for the death of Dan Brown for suggesting, in a bit of fiction, that Jesus was a procreating human being? There are innumerable works that seek to expand the narratives presented in the King James bible and none of them, produced in the last 50 years, have produced the reaction that Rushdie's book received.
The fatwa was unique in that it represented an international censorship of a work not even written in the languages spoken by the countries who putatively supported this fatwa."
Once again, it was an Iranian fatwa...not a pan-Islamic one. Actually, yes, I did notice that his holiness the pope was not thrilled to bits about the Da Vinci Code. He obeys the laws of Vatican city, and the Ayatollah takes the legal recourse available to himself in Iran.
It's really VERY disingenous to suggest that he didn't expect a fatwa or other censure. I quite wonder at you! Rushdie and his ilk crave this stuff. That is why you see people like Irshad Manji gleefully hiring a body guard and getting bulletproof windows prior to the publication of her book. Unfortunately for her no one has bothered much about her yet. And, yes, I do mean gleefully, because in the interview I saw of her, it was really almost indecent her enthusiasm for these measures. Wake up and smell the human nature!!
Noo York, don't leave. You'll find that folks here are pretty much equal opportunity haters. Eventually, everyone gets criticized for something: religion, language, skin color, affilation with the Midwest, etc.
re: common sense, the original post:
and those who insult islam through free speech must understand that they will probably get shot, blown up, or their asses kicked, because freedom of speech is not in every country, but muslims are...common sense people. lets try it.
the prose isn't clear, but it seems that it is common sense for people to understand that muslims will react violently to insults against their religion.
kesh you are right, i am not going to boycott this site, because it needs people who are more balanced, and less anti-everything...seriously you guys needs to read my comments, i never said it was ok to beat up or blow up people who say something against you...but you people need to understand that, that is how a lot of people in the Muslim world think...and thus, i dont get it, why, people are surprised that a fatwa was issued against a blasphemer? also rezia, God bless you...and everyone, get off the Iran issue, they are irrelevant to what Islam really is...the fatwa was removed in 1998
Well, hema, I'm glad you learnt your lesson and are finally being inclusive.
I actually think it's quite fair to critique the Queen for knighting someone who has caused so much offense. It's not so much the issue of free speech, but rather, what values does the knighthood represent? Is this a a tacit endorsement of atheism and anti-Islamic sentiment? Is this a public vindication of those who label Islam as dark, deviant, and violent? Or was it simply an acknowledgment of his literary contributions. By the same note, what does it mean when someone's contributions have been so offensive to so many, Muslim or otherwise? I think those questions are much more interesting and are definitely relevant to the UK's position, both diplomatically and within the context of its own race relations. I also think, though, that the knighthood generally doesn't mean crap in the UK anymore, so to a certain extent it's like most of the Grammy Awards that way :)
Why , oh why, do I waste precious time watching the live telecast?
Good stuff!
It is COMMON SENSE that SOME muslims will want to act violently against those who commit BLASPHEMY against ISLAM...Razib, i know you are smart enough to read...so please, read...carefully
Sorry to be ignorant, but does that mean one is "born Muslim," similar to Christianity and Judaism? I only ask because theoretically, in Sikhi, one has to opt-in. What this means re: practice is of course different from the reality, but I'm just curious.
if you are born to a muslim father you are a muslim according to the majority consensus.
I also think, though, that the knighthood generally doesn't mean crap in the UK anymore, so to a certain extent it's like most of the Grammy Awards that way :)
Don't be dissing the Grammy Awards now. Knighthoods are more like the Brit Awards, really.
Wake up and smell the human nature!!
well, the nature of muslims at least ;-)
noo york - what i don't understand is why is violence the common sense response to a statement by words? my issue is with the proportional response aspect. why not retaliate in words, as well?
this is a bit like saying, "And Prabhakaran took the legal recourse available to himself, in ordering a suicide bomber to blow up Rajiv Gandhi."
or, "And Osama Bin Laden took the legal recourse available to himself, in ordering the attacks of 9/11."
all jokes aside, human nature (unless the human is an inveterate risk taker--of which I won't count rushdie as a member considering that he makes his living by sitting on his ass and typing on a computer) dictates survival first. I doubt that any author would willingly court the kind of reaction that he received.
Irshad Manji, on the other hand, is not comparable in significance to Rushdie. She is a potential case of 'gleeful put-apon Islam critic" as you suggest.
Being in the news because idiots watch you, or as it is commonly called today - 'fame', is enough to warrant a knighthood these days.
hema, I'm not sure if I can accept your statement b/c you are from "Jesusland" (cite: HMF) ;)
Rahul, that was painful. (Ulysses) And no problem re: religious discrimination as icing. Just to be clear, I do think that Muslims, particularly Muslim men and hijabi women, are getting doubly screwed in a way that is definitely not comparable to other VMEs, though.
noo york, glad you're staying around, and thank you for the clarification. And folks are right. When I first got here I thought the site was full of Sikh-haters, and later realized everyone hates everyone. It's pretty equal opportunity hateration 'round these parts ;)
The political far right in Western Europe is starting to grow due to the backlash against a certain type of immigrants.
In countries like Sweden, Holland, Belgium and Denmark the immigration laws are started to change.
what i don't understand is why is violence the common sense response to a statement by words? my issue is with the proportional response aspect. why not retaliate in words, as well?
ak, dude, if that actually happen, this world would be a much better place, i think you need to face reality more and stop idealizing
One can become a knight and remain apart from the British establishment. Sean Connery supports Scottish independence.
"is humor and satire against islam? oops, i forget, against the prophet...."
It sounded to me like you actually were suggesting that...if it was a joke then that is just peachy! I'm sure I'm okay with that. I am going to take offense to your ascribing something that was never said by the prophet (SWAT) though. And I'm sorry, there is just NOTHING you can do...the offense has been taken. No, you mustn't even try to right it!
And to the rest of yous with your earnest free speech hang ups: Lo, do I laugh bitterly at you expense! Bitter shall be your lot!
Look, there is a difference between free speech and yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre. Learn to use your grey matter to be discerning enough not to proclaim sweeping analogies. Discern, people, discern!! We are not in the seventh grade and the colour grey is all around us!
"When someone says something filthy or clearly offensive it only alienates a group of people from the dialogue."
but what about something written in a religious or holy book (of any religion/belief system) that can be interpreted as filthy or clearly offensive by another group of people - either religious themselves or non-religious? should that be covered by free speech or should it be excised from those books because it has either harmed, inspires harm or continues to perpetuate harmful stereotypes about other people, thus stifling fruitful dialogue and alienating people?
hema, I'm not sure if I can accept your statement b/c you are from "Jesusland" (cite: HMF) ;)
Am not too! *grumbles*
ak, dude, if that actually happen, this world would be a much better place, i think you need to face reality more and stop idealizing
i had a friend who walked around with a picture of the virgin mary holding an alien baby. a lot of people came up to him and said they were offended, but he never got his ass kicked.
some people are civilized, even if marginally.
Wow, the comments are flying fast and furious right now.
Umm, thanks? :)
Don't fully understand what you mean by this, but I was saying I concur with you.
It wasn't nice of you to say that.
clueless, if by "certain immigrants" you mean "brown/black immigrants who also happen to be Muslim." I really don't think you can blame ethnic minorities for the rise of Fascism (which is what these "far right" parties are -- neofascist organizations) in Western Europe. This is a pattern we've seen repeated -- only it used to be Slavs, and before that it was someone else.Yep, it was repealed a really long time ago. In fact, it might have never existed in the first place.
Look, there is a difference between free speech and yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre.
exactly. muslims are the fire. we should douse it ;-) you see, from where i stand, anyone who reacts to verbal shitting on their religion as if it was yelling "fire" in a theater doesn't belong in the united states. i know that it is different in most nations, but the united states isn't most nations. we do worship free speech.
p.s. not all muslims are like this. e.g., look at eteraz.org. eminently civilized.
This is a pattern we've seen repeated -- only it used to be Slavs, and before that it was someone else.
the only slavs in fascist countries were sorbs and slovenes. unless you count inter-war poland as fascist.
Great minds think alike , eh?
Noo York: Don't go .Stay and fight the good fight.
then say it's a common response, or an instinctive response, rather than a common sense response. common sense implies logic - and the violence of this sort is not rational. and you, to some degree, have to agree with that; otherwise you wouldn't be (repeatedly) telling us that you do not condone this sort of violence. if it was so common sense, you, and the rest of us, would condone it.
Camille I'm sorry but I think the behavior of muslims in western europe has caused the backlash against them. I have friends of mine that now live in those countries, and they told me, even the most liberal thinking people are fed up.
That sounds perfect.
"I think race will always color interaction in public places. Who do you think TSA finds more threatening : A white skin-head or a bearded brown man?"
I'd like to point out that religion is seen as a big threat as well, and that race and religion are not mutually exclusive. White Sikhs are as good as Muslim to the security officials.
muslims aren't the only ones with issues about shitting on their religion. i've heard william donohue of the catholic league argue for blasphemy laws pretty much just like muslims. though i don't think he was arguing for the death penalty, that seems a muslim specialty in this day and age. donohue was reacting to the art which mixed feces with the virgin mary btw & piss christ (the image of christ soaked in urine).
This might be the future look for Denmark's Little Mermaid....
This might be the future look for Denmark's Little Mermaid....
actually, that seems empirically unlikely now. the tide has turned and europe has woken up. inshallah.
why i said the above here (only for those who need to know why i think it is empirically unlikely that eurabia will happen).
# 159:
Really? That is interesting.Somehow I thought that race had more to do with it than religon. I guess that's because of personal experience.I went through so many "Random" checks after 2001 when flying and I do not wear any religously identifiable clothing or jewellery .
Runa, may I recommend this t-shirt for your next flight?
Too early to know conclusively... though even the usually quiet Swiss are ticked off these days:
Agreed, but committed "progressives" will refuse to accept the obvious and paint people like Pim Fortuyn as "racists". I recall after Theo Van Gogh's murder there was an unprecedented "3 way riot":
a) Skinheads vs Muslims
b) Leftists vs Skinheads
c) Muslims vs Leftists
"Really? That is interesting.Somehow I thought that race had more to do with it than religon. I guess that's because of personal experience.I went through so many "Random" checks after 2001 when flying and I do not wear any religously identifiable clothing or jewellery ."
I didn't DENY race had anything to do with it. I'd also like to point out the greater injustice there is that its assumed brown skinned people are ALL muslim, and that anyone in any sort of non-christian/western clothes is muslim, and that all muslims are terrorists. I just wanted to point out that your "bearded brown man" and "white man" are not opposite ends of the spectrum with no in between. There are white muslims and sikhs who do and dont get checked for various reasons. Yes, race does give whites an advantage, but religion also gives ANYONE a disadvantage if theyre not Christian.
clueless, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? In many of those same Western countries there has been rampant discrimination, racism, and barriers to education and economic participation. Almost all of those countries have also actively tried to prevent (brown, Muslim) immigrants from becoming resident aliens or naturalized citizens. I would argue that the xenophobia predates the arrival of those people, and I would also argue that if you are going all about screwing up people's countries and going all imperial on their asses, you should expect the fallout (e.g. refugee populations) at your doorstep. If this, in turn, engenders anger, disillusionment, and violence, then perhaps these countries are reaping what they sowed by denying people access to their "classic liberal" values, which, apparently only apply when you're white. This was the rational behind the Haitian revolution, and also the rational behind a lot of the independence movements. People can be as fed up as they like, but it's foolish to pretend that there isn't a (racist) history behind these patterns. I think the UK is a great example, in that sense, of an empire who realized that their laws let in people they didn't want (imperial and former imperial subjects from the colonies), reacted to even the smallest number of immigrants with gross racism and violence (and the rise of the National Front, who are effectively a neo-Nazi group), and then turned around to blame all their economic and social problems on a small number of minorities.
Too early to know conclusively... though even the usually quiet Swiss are ticked off these days:
projections are never conclusive. but we have growth rates, basal populations from which those rates emerge, immigration rates, changing immigration laws, and a world wide record for 3 generations about demographic transitions. this isn't the mystery of the trinity (no offense), you can crunch the numbers and make projections by modulating the parameters and assessing plausible ranges of those parameters. you can also read history and see past precedent. but anyway, like i said my argument is at the link. my only point is that there's no reason to close our eyes and pretend like the future in uncharted and mysterious and we need to pray to god to guess right, we know the general options and courses it might take.
clueless, what comes first, the chicken or the egg?
your point is well taken. but, it is notable that racists don't distinguish much between colored folk, but in england it is the muslim "pakis" and not the non-muslim ones who have turned violent. in france the beaurs seem more problematic than the blacks from francophone west africa. in the netherlands we hear about people from morocco and their children, but less about the indians from suriname, christian ambonese from indonesia or blacks from the carribean. in spain the enormous mestizo latin american immigrant population is off the radar, while muslims did you know what to madrid. obviously racism and colonialism are not necessary and inevitable primers for a violent counter-cultural response.
So why are hindu's and sikh's who comes to these countries not causing the same problems that muslims are. They even christians from countries like Iraq and Lebanon who do a much better job of intergrating then muslims from these countries.
So why are hindu's and sikh's who comes to these countries not causing the same problems that muslims are. They even christians from countries like Iraq and Lebanon who do a much better job of intergrating then muslims from these countries.
muslims in the USA are doing OK. so far. why?
camille, immensely true. and why just refugee populations - if the empire could ravage foreign lands and take the best of their resources, what is wrong with those from the (former) periphery making a (comparably honest) living in the core country?
best exemplified by how the british empire treated its white settler colonies and the other colonies - self-government for the non-whites in the nineteenth century? for shame! and even when they did let go of the non-white colonies, it was more for economic reasons (and somewhat political) than for any upholding of democratic values.
# 168 dsm
What explains this then? These were Indian nuns in habit ( and therefore obviously wearing crucifixes etc )
Anyway , my point is that racial profiling is ridiculous as is religous profiling.
reading said article. also:
"Anyway , my point is that racial profiling is ridiculous as is religous profiling."
No arguments there.
bro, i don't think pulling the gang rape card is going to send this conversion in a rational direction....
You right Razib about the gang rape card. It just that I have friend who want to Australia and had to go throught that nightmare.
conversion - > conversation ;-)
Let's avoid getting into gang rape, and try and stay on topic here?
Topics are: Rushdie's evolution; secularism; assimilation vs. acculturation; race vs. religion.
Yeah, I know -- too many topics.
Because Hindu's and Sikh's do not make it a priority to ensure 'Hindutva' or 'Khalistan' everywhere they go, yet!. Trust me this problem would arise if they tried to make everyone don a turban or eat vegetarian exclusively. The idea behind a global Islamic Caliphate is propogated in some mosques in the EU and America. This is the reason stalwarts like Anjum Chaudhary actually consider and support Sharia in the UK.
Now imagine if fanatical Hindutva was propogated in these nations, what the situation would have been. But again what actually makes a Hindu a Hindu?
The idea behind a global Islamic Caliphate is propogated in some mosques in the EU and America. This is the reason stalwarts like Anjum Chaudhary actually consider and support Sharia in the UK.
and of course, pining for the caliphate is faux historical. but in any case, i think the key issue is the ummah and how it relates to the muslim diaspora. there is an organization of islamic states. where is the organization of christian states? muslim nations see themselves as fundamentally muslim in how they order themselves (no matter if this is a contingent condition of history). the diaspora communities are hooked into the information & values networks coming from these muslim majority countries, and that i think explains part of their relative difficulty in assimilating into a culture where they are a minority and can't set the terms of the debate. there turns out be a good test case for my hypothesis here: the chinese muslims. between 1960 and 1980 their contact with the outside world was minimal (cultural revolution, etc.). with the loosening of travel and resumption of hajj there was an attempt by returning hajjis to "purify" and "standardize" chinese islam. some of this caused problems because they live in a predominantly non-muslim environment, the outlook and cultural environment appropriate to a muslim nation isn't really easily transferable to one where most people eat pork.
While condemning Noo York's "moderation", I do want to point out that in the last few years we have
also seen:
(1) A library of ancient indian literature party destroyed by hindu fanatics while people watched
(2) A eminent indian historian abused by "hindu" organizations because he said hindu scriptures clearly describe the consumption of beef
(3) Cries of blasphemy and calls for death from sikhs becuz some guy dressed up like Guru Gobind and mimicked some of his actions
So lets get real here. And I didn't even get to Jerry falwell yet...
No shortage of intolerance ("competitive intolerance") when it comes to faith...
I think it's interesting to look at other "concerned" W. European countries right now and ask where they are in their development of race relations. While the scenario is not identical to the UK, it is similar, and many of these areas have smaller ethnic communities (relative to the UK) and have only seen booming immigration over the past 15-20 years. I think context is paramount in making analytical arguments.
.No shortage of intolerance ("competitive intolerance") when it comes to faith...
but the world isn't flat. the incidents you describe are in india, correct? sorry, but that's india. they have to ban the satanic verses and discourage beef consumption on prudential grounds for the sake of public order. we don't have to do that in the united states because very few hindus and muslims exist to get enraged. additionally, most christians today accept that leaving the faith is not a capital offense.
I remember a quote in the BBC by an afghan man being deported from Iran, It essentially went something like this "We are muslims, I can't understand why they would do this to us"
I guess for those not involved in nation politics the muslim identity transcends borders. Hence the mass hysteria associated with a perceived insult. I shudder to think of the dot.com implosion when a book like this ever caught the hindu eye . The fall of technology! wonder if the mutiny can run on an abascus?
I also think there generally has to be a bit of a critical mass before you get an uprising, and given that many minorities are relegated to ghetto-like living conditions, it's no wonder these riots happen where specific communities live.
race riots are concerning, but they're really not what i'm talking about. race riots can sometimes be justified/explained by a larger political agenda, but their emergence seems proximate. in contrast, the london or madrid bombings, the assassination of theo van gough, are understood and explicable in the context of both proximate conditions (alienation, etc.) and a deeper ultimate ideological program (realistic or not). ethnic/race riots are pretty world wide as a phenomenon goes, and i don't think that explains the special character of islamic radicalism. rather, i think a better analog is with anarchists or political terror movements like the IRA and ETA. so, my real question is why don't oppressed black and non-muslim browns produce IRA and ETAs? i think the reason is that they just want a "fair go," they don't want to overturn society as it is. as unrealistic as that is for the minority of muslims who favor overthrowing the cultures in which they reside, that's what they want to do, and they think they have an "alternative."
While the scenario is not identical to the UK, it is similar, and many of these areas have smaller ethnic communities (relative to the UK) and have only seen booming immigration over the past 15-20 years. I think context is paramount in making analytical arguments.
which do mean? from cia factbook, visible minorities
UK 8%
france, prolly 10% (no race/religion censuses in this country, but the usual assumption is that ethnic muslims are 5-10%, and many blacks are christians, tenish is prolly right)
netherlands 9%
germany 2.5% (proxy for turks)
i'm not unaware of context ;-)
Amardeep, I'm very late to this party, but fabulous post. It's great to see someone go beyond the superficial coverage in the mainstream media of the Satanic Verses kerfuffle, and into more of what makes Rushdie such interesting and important figure and what makes this such a significant moment in British history.
"well, the nature of muslims at least ;-) "
Can ANYONE be so thick?! Hello? It was the nature of people like Rushdie and Manji. You really must read what I wrote before you comment. Yeeesh!
rezia,
if you get into a bitch-for-tat with Razib, I suggest you start citing and stop name-calling.
Although i'm all for vicious name-calling if it is funny enough to be redemptive of the name-caller's breach of etiquette.
muarliwhatever,
I'm not getting into this...but I suggest you look up the word "cite". I did quote what he said...he had misunderstood what I said.
And by calling me names in your very cunningly circuitous manner (congragulations), you are telling me about breaches of etiquette? Will the ironies never cease?
noo york:
"so dont make this seem like some crazy fundamentalist issue, i as a moderate also wouldn't mind seeing rushdie slapped across the face for insulting islam..."
--> That is a moderate position ? Especially for being skeptical about a stultified religion(not that other religions are better) ?
I don't think being Knighted is one of the world's highest honors. It may have been when the Brits ruled all over the globe, but is largely irrelevant (IMHO) and superficial. Seems like the Queen Knights any/every famous person these days. All they have to do is live long enough in fame and CHACHING! you get knighted.
My personal reaction to Rushdie getting this? Meh.
A nobel prize in science is far more valuable than being Knighted by a figurehead of the British Government.
With respect to immigration in the United States? One follows the laws of the land. If you get violent and angry because someone insulted you for whatever reason, there is no rationale/excuse. You deal with the consequences that come with becoming violent in a civilized society. At least you'll get a chance to defend yourself as fairly as anyone can ask for on this planet.
Razib Wrote: "most iranians in LA are jewish."
Certainly many are, but not a majority.
rushdie has changed. obviously the fatwa deeply affected him. but also, his disillusion with the sandinistas whom he once almost worshipped led to a more nuanced view of US foreign policy. i remember him speaking about how he was haunted by their brutal treatment of indigenous people like the miskito indians.
but i think, like chrisopher hitchens, he remains fundamentally the same and his support for the iraqi war can easily been seen as a man of the left coming to grips with a new fascism (well, in the case of saddam, really an old one) that he's personally seen face to face. so i don't think he's too different from the man who wrote of institutional racism and imperialism. after all, he's lived and prospered and been protected by that imperialist land for a long time now. so accepting the knighthood is probably an appropriate reconciliation, and just as importantly, is a more subversive act than rejecting it, at least to true rightist powers that be.
if you are born to a muslim father you are a muslim according to the majority consensus.
Razib: You are correct when it comes to settling disputes based on sharia etc. The 'muslim father' as a concept is mostly confined to use in Islamic jurisprudence.
But theologically, as I understand, all children are born in the state of fitrah (belief in the oneness of God)
So according to the Islamic faith all children are born as monotheists. Also children in Muslim families are encouraged to say the shahada (oath of allegiance to Islam) to affirm their faith in not only the oneness of God (they are supposedly born with it) but to more importantly affirm the final prophethood of Muhammad which will set them apart from other monotheists like Jews,Christians, Sikhs etc.
As I said earlier, the definition of "moderate" differs (atleast from the commonly understood perspective) when it comes to "blasphemy" in Islam.
We have been told now that Jinnah and Iqbal are actually "moderate secularists". But I recently found this interesting incident in the late 1920s..
The link to the pakistani newspaper..
link
And you must understand that the prophet himself regularly disrespected other religions in the worst way possible: he destroyed the religious symbols of non-muslims; forcibly made the central temple of the arab pagans (the Kaaba in Mecca) the focus of his own renegade religion; robbed, slaughtered and enslaved numerous non-muslims till all trace of paganism, christianity and judaism had been wiped out from Mecca, Medina and the rest of the Hejaz
I am not sure if there were many Jews in Mecca though Muhammad did eventually take on the Jews in Medina and surrounding areas. Also Muhammad didnt really fight any significant wars with Christians.
Its an undeniable fact that Muhammad was very anti-pagan. Most Quran verses on Christianity/Judaism are arguably contextual and have some nuance, but when it comes to pagans, the Quran is vicious and unforgiving. Muhammad himself as Prema correcly pointed out, build his whole career on destroying Meccan pagan society which before Muhammmad was the center of commerce in Arabia.
I am not sure how the Quran survives the Canadian/European anti-hate speech laws as it has clear hate speech against pagans.
Al_Chutiya_for_debauchery Wrote: "I am not sure how the Quran survives the Canadian/European anti-hate speech laws as it has clear hate speech against pagans."
Well, it sort of has to be allowed to.
By the same logic, the Old Testament, and therefore the Christian Bible, would also fail and modern day "hate speech metric" in the western world.
I would like to see the people at places like eteraz.org etc to tackle the Quranic bigotry against pagans.
Prema,
I admit that I don't know the intricate details of Sikh Khalistan issue. But I was thinking that "Jat Sikhs" were on the Indian side (KPS Gill etc..). Maybe i'm wrong.. anyways it's off topic..
I would like to see the people at places like eteraz.org etc to tackle the Quranic bigotry against pagans.
they've used arguments against the apostasy death penalty, and i think they've done some stuff about pagans. definitely "our kind people" ;-) if they bow down to god most high.
I apologize, my last post was overly rude. What I meant to say was that all human rights abuses should be denounced; they are not an opportunity to gloat over the essentialist or misguided notions of individuals or even groups of individuals. Given that an entire group of people, regardless of their politics, personal beliefs, etc., was targeted for mass violence on the basis of their religion, I think we should be a bit more sensitive and realize that it is foolish to make sweeping and offensive statements about entire groups because of the failed actions of subgroups or individuals. Further, the issue is entirely off topic, so let's get back to Salman Rushdie, no?
I now motion that the conversation shift to the topic of Salman's seductive torso. Oops, wrong Salman. I really meant his seductive droopy eyelids.
Amardeep (42) and noo york (45):
wow, that was some deeply metaphorical exchange there.
To wit, "I'm just a moderate who believes people who I don't like should be shot. I don't like reading, and I don't like thinking, but I do love me some killing. It's not moderation in the WEST, but in Islam, it's totally moderate."
Yeah, buddy. You keep patting yourself on the back there for your "moderation."
The thing that galled me most about the fatwah against Rushdie was how blind it was. So few people bothered to read the book, yet so many took the word of various fundamentalist mullahs (and the Ayatollah himself) at face value! But even the most casual perusal of the book would find no real cause for anger.
Hey Razib...sprechen zie deuche? :-D
And the actual title! Its background makes for some interesting reading, especially for the moderates amongst us.
Well, those that bother to read, anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_verses
Actually, Prema, what's ridiculous is your phrasing, as usual. "Of course you are wrong."
Condescending much?
Easily? What was so easy about it? A plane full of people, a prime minister, so many policemen, soldiers and so on and so on
KPS Gill has the highest security afforded to an Indian national. Even after ~20 years after the so called 'crushing'.
You are really are an verbal extremist.
Most of the Sikhs in Delhi who got massacred in the 1984 pogrom were non-Jatts. The majority were Khatris and Aroras whose families had been in Delhi since 1947 (i.e. since Partition). Most put up as spirited a defense as possible ...but the fact that the state machinery and state apparatus were being used against them, their weapons (such as they were) were confiscated, false promises of police protection were made, and the fact that they were severely outnumbered, meant that they got massacred, in one of the most shameful episodes in modern India's history. The Congress Party, which was the ruling party at the time, used all the governmental power and resources available in its hands to systematically 'teach Sikhs a lesson' (as it was phrased). And this was less than 23 years ago. It is well-documented that the muscle power was supplied by youth from villages surrounding Delhi, who were mostly Yadavs, Gujjars, and (Hindu) Jaats, as well as surprisingly quite a lot of local Muslims too. In all cases, the primary motivation was not revenge for Indira Gandhi, but the chance to loot, pillage, rape, and kill. All masterminded by the Congress Party...but somehow still a reflection of Indian society in some ways.
In the hope that she/he gets banned for being abusive and unfunny.
that seems unlikely to happen. they've been around in nearly half a dozen incarnations (excuse the term) since last summer. if the ops ban them i doubt they would have any compunction with using a proxy service.
In the hope that she/he gets banned for being abusive and unfunny.
in any case, my consternation is with the fact that people compose serious responses to the creature. it doesn't operate in good faith, so why respond in such a manner?
It is well-documented that the muscle power was supplied by youth from villages surrounding Delhi, who were mostly Yadavs, Gujjars, and (Hindu) Jaats, as well as surprisingly quite a lot of local Muslims too.
Amitabh: Thats fascinating. Where did you read that? Were they hired goons or opportunistic thugs? Most of the killings took place in New Delhi which has few Muslims to begin with so the Muslims would have to come over from Old Delhi to engage in the violence.
Between 1984 was really terrible. I think it was actually much worse than the Gujarat riots. I remember that in 1985, I was in a car with my cousins and uncle and my uncle entered into a one way street. There was another Sikh dude who was already trying to settle with the police for entering the one way as well. The cop took $500 bucks from the Sikh guy to 'settle' the matter. Then he 'settled' with my uncle for only $100 bucks. My uncle asked him about why he took $500 from the Sikh dude and he said because 'he was a sardar (sikh)'.
Camille:Sorry to be ignorant, but does that mean one is "born Muslim," similar to Christianity and Judaism? I only ask because theoretically, in Sikhi, one has to opt-in. What this means re: practice is of course different from the reality, but I'm just curious.
I think you are a bit mistaken...Christianity and Islam are based on belief...In Islam you have to recite the 'shahada' to become a Muslim. In mainstream christianity, you have to believe in the 'Lord Jesus Christ'...to become a christian.
Acts16:31Acts16:31
Ponniyin Selvan:
"We have been told now that Jinnah and Iqbal are actually "moderate secularists". But I recently found this interesting incident in the late 1920s.."
--> While Iqbal being called a "moderate secularist" might be a stretch, Jinnah's defense makes more sense in the context of the times(1929). After all, he was going against the maha-nut(in terms of religion), Gandhi, in the political sphere. From what I have read, Jinnah comes across more as a secularist destined to lead a party(Muslim League) that defined itself in terms of religion.
Inintforthemoney (#71) wrote)
I read once Rushdie is of Iranian descent, which may be why he doesn't look especially desi.
Rushdie is of 'iranian descent' the way all Indian Muslims are. He's perfectly desi to me, and in a more just world, he would be recognized as one of history's greatest indo-islamic writes, a descedent of Ghalib, Iqbal, and Faiz and a cousin of Manto. He is a Muslim the way Voltaire was undeniably a Catholic.
Camille wrote:
Perhaps rioting parallels the communities who feel the most targeted, and perhaps this also happens along specific lines. I also think there generally has to be a bit of a critical mass before you get an uprising, and given that many minorities are relegated to ghetto-like living conditions, it's no wonder these riots happen where specific communities live.
Via the SM news tab, I found this article from the UK Prospect magazine, which talks about the 30-year rule:
Among those who study British race relations, there's an informal theory that states that 30 years after the establishment of any sizeable ethnic minority community, there will be riots. After Jewish migration into Britain in the 1900s, there were riots in the Jewish communities of east London during the 1930s. After the 1950s migration from the Caribbean, there were riots in 1981 in the Afro-Caribbean areas of Toxteth, Chapeltown and Brixton. And after the 1970s Pakistani immigration into northern England, in the summer of 2001, like clockwork, serious unrest kicked off in Oldham, then spread to Leeds, Burnley and Bradford.
One explanation is that it takes about 30 years for a sizeable second generation to establish itself and then become frustrated with its status, both within its own community and the wider society. This frustration arises in part from a question of identity. Whose culture and values do you affiliate with? Those of your parents or of your friends? Those of your community or of your country?
The thirty year rule, eh. Brits can look forward to the Polish riots of 2035! Which will be supressed by the Royal Muslim Constabulary, led by the Defender of the Faiths, King Charles!!
(I strongly recommend reading the Prospect article, especially the explanation of terrorist Islam as a anti-traditional ideology, and a way to get out of arranged marriages! Yes, Arranged marriages lead to terrorism, just not the way you think).
Ikram, I don't really buy the 30-year-riot phenomena. Particularly because in the UK "race riots" (or uprisings, depending on who you talk to) have happened with much greater frequency and within much narrower bands of time. While there were riots in (mostly Pakistani and Caribbean) Birmingham in 2005, there were also riots in 1995 and in 1986 (I think, definitely in the mid-80s, but not sure about the year). Also, there has been a sizeable Muslim population in the north since before the 1970s. I think it's cute to posit that the effect is time, but I think the legal, economic, and political institutions and events of the time are much more telling.
Delhite, I could be mistaken, which is why I asked. I was under the impression that child born to Christian parents is baptized to ensure their "salvation" and Christianity, though. I know there's also confirmation for some denominations, which I guess would be a formal embrace of the religion. I was just curious about how things operated overall.
razib, i love "it"! :)
looks like Prema's comments have been deleted. But why?. Most of the time Prema's comments are accurate and based on facts. Atleast in this discussion, what prema said made sense and took to task the so called "moderates".
You can see that from Al Chutiya's comments.. #199.
Prema's comments on caste in the Khalistani movement were completely off-topic -- this is a post on Rushdie.
Well it's your site, you can do whatever you want.. :-)
As to the question of what makes a Muslim a Muslim, I am sure that it is by some attestation of belief. But in the Indian context, we Hindus don't seem to get this and use it to describe "heritage". I still see Rushdie being referred to as a "Muslim" in the Indian press despite the fact that he is agnostic. When the Hindutvaadis have been upset with him or Shabana Azmi (nominally Muslim, spiritually universalist) they have attributed their offending behavior to their "Muslimness". I know Keralite Christians who have "reverted" back to hinduism/buddhism via college age detours through atheism. By Indian law they are still Christian. India really needs a uniform civil code where there is no legal recognition of religious community.
Amitabh,
I think your descriptions is completely accurate. ACD, the riots were mainly in areas with sikh majority like Tilak Nagar and a lot of looting happened in old Delhi areas like Chandni Chowk, Ajmeri Gate etc where there are a lot of Sikh businesses. Congress party goons like JD Tytler led the attacks and I believe he was one of the people who called to teach a lesson to Sikhs. My friend’s father was in Delhi police and his weapons were confiscated, needless to say he quit the force there after. Many Sikhs cut their hair to avoid being identified. It was truly sad times and what is sadder is that tytler and his goons are still free and no one including BJP did anything to bring them to justice.
I have friends who lost their family members and business during 84.
But in the Indian context, we Hindus don't seem to get this and use it to describe "heritage". I still see Rushdie being referred to as a "Muslim" in the Indian press despite the fact that he is agnostic.
the same issue crops up with jews. jewish atheists and hindu atheists have a hard time grokking that as a "muslim atheist" i'm really not a muslim the way the are (or can be) jews or hindus (i know some people are cultural muslims, but i'm definitely not one of those). also, on SM and on my own blog on occasion when i've criticized the lunacy of hinduism in its more nutty manifestations people have accused me of being a "closet muslim." ;-) (one moron rhetorical observed that i was criticizing hinduism and not islam, making him suspicious of my motives...because you know, i never criticize islam) it would be funny if i wasn't insulted.
Rezia: Free speech is really all about creating dialogue between different people.
What?
No it isn't. Free speech is free speech. Nothing more, nothing less.
I feel your pain Razib. I'm an atheist when it is defined as the rejection of a personal god but am in truth a pantheist. I identify as a Hindu because there is room for this metaphysical perspective in this faith. While I am sympathetic to the core grievances of the Hindu nationalists vis a vis Partition/Bangladesh/Kashmir, I have had arguments with the VHP types over:
a) My rejection of a Hindu state
b) My refusal to accept any bounds on free speech with respect to blasphemy
c) My refusal to accept their Hinduism= Vedic religion formulation
d) My belief that there should be no anti-conversion laws
e) My refusal to buy into the sophistry of the "caste did not solidify until three hundred years ago" crowd
In my case the arguments typically stay civil because in the end I am "one of them". It is unfortunate but unsurprising they would toss you back into the Ummah as part of their attacks against you
louiecypher 225:
I concur. I think there are a lot of people who'd fall into this category. I can claim sympathy to any number of parties, some of them in direct contradiction to each other. Spiritually, I don't feel much allegiance to any religion that seeks to exclude, dominate, proselytize, bully, coerce, or otherwise annoy someone who's trying to understand things on his or her own terms.
"Rezia: Free speech is really all about creating dialogue between different people.
Vinter: What?
No it isn't. Free speech is free speech. Nothing more, nothing less."
So what is the point of it? "Free speech is free speech"? How enlightening! I'm sure it took a great of brilliance to come with that.
Camille:Delhite, I could be mistaken, which is why I asked. I was under the impression that child born to Christian parents is baptized to ensure their "salvation" and Christianity, though. I know there's also confirmation for some denominations, which I guess would be a formal embrace of the religion. I was just curious about how things operated overall.
Yes,the catholic church performs 'infant baptism' where the parents pledge to bring up their child in the catholic faith.Infant baptism is not about 'salvation.This is more of an affirmation on behalf of the child till he grows up,when he can take the 'confirmation', if he/she wants to follow his parent's faith.
By the same token,I would not call Salman Rushdie a Muslim,since he is an atheist...I would say he is of Muslim heritage. Seems like Friday evening is going to be an interesting time this week, if it's going to be anything like the past.
Rezia, if you look at Vinter's statement calmly, I think his point is that there are no conditions to free speech. That's sort of the point of free speech. Not constraints on furthering dialogue, or making people feel warm and fuzzy etc. The only reasonable limit is if it directly incites or induces harm to other people ("shouting fire"). Yes, some free speech might be offensive to many people, but that goes with the territory, and that's how it should be.
So what is the point of it? "Free speech is free speech"? How enlightening! I'm sure it took a great of brilliance to come with that.
exactly. very few cultures come up with genius idea. it is obviously pretty innovative to you.
I'm kind of with Rezia on this. I also think people conflate free speech with the idea of a free market for speech, which is not at all the same. I always feel a bit squishy on this issue, because on one hand I think freedom of dialogue is important, but on the other hand I think "free speech" also brings responsibility. If you are going to use this right or privilege or whatever to spew really invective or hateful things, or things that you know are going to really offend people, then you also have to be willing to accept the (vocal) outcry, backlash, etc. I'm just speaking broadly at this point -- not about Rushdie and the fatwah or whatnot.
Maybe you two can coin a "new word" to denote whatever you mean. :-)
I think for many the definition of "free speech" => "free speech" sounds perfect. simple and powerful.
Rahul,
The original person (Vinter) was not so articulate. OK I see how the exclamation points and italics might lead you to believe that I was not very calm...but that's just how I "talk". I'm 19! That's how every girl I know talks!
Getting back on topic, all this earnest hand wringing about free speech always strikes me as intellectual vaccousness. You must look at things philosophically and practically. What is the purpose of free speech when you really think about it? What makes it worth having? To say "Yep it's there and we like it and we MUST have it even, and especially if it is offensive" does not address anything at all.
It is really the mark of a free society to say and do whatever pleases the individual but limits are required. And that's not just my feeling. When was the last time you read an something from the perspective of a Nazi-sympathizer? Or a blatant racist? Why is it not acceptable to question the holocaust? Why is it not acceptable to say n****r, or ch**k o black or chinese people? That is not about censoring free speech...it is about being basically decent people. The ability to offend is not something very great at all. It takes no bravery, no courage, just a craving for noteriety.
Why is it that religion (the thing that millions of people hold so very very dear to thier lives, the thing that allows them spirituality) can be insulted in any way, and when offense is taken by the faithful (as it MUST be) it is characterized as "foaming at the mouth"? Can one not be moderate and still find the beauty of traditional religion moving? Is it required that a moderate person not be offended by attacks on thier religion, by misrepresentations?
But this is all very Quixotic, there is absolutely no point arguing with someone who cannot understand the value of religion. We'd be speaking different languages.
exactly. very few cultures come up with genius idea. it is obviously pretty innovative to you.
I am such a masochist...cannot BELIEVE I'm replying to you. >:(
Yea very few cultures come up "with genius idea" [sic]. Of course NO form of censorship exsists in america...oh no...land of the free, right?
Do you know how to say "hypocritical"? Or "hypocrite"? Look it up.
PS Thank you Camille!
Rezia, as for speech by a Nazi sympathizer or racist or holocaust denier, such speech exists. You can read what David Duke etc. have to say about these topics, and there are neo-Nazi groups around who spout their vitriol. You can buy Mein Kampf at some book stores. Fred Phelps and his nutso followers unleash their verbal diarrhea even at funerals of US soldiers. So, it is not something exclusively targeted against Islam.
In my opinion, it is perfectly acceptable to take offense against it, protest it etc. It is when such protest takes the form of physical intimidation or threats, property damage etc. where things become troublesome to me. Camille also said that parenthetically with her "vocal" qualifier.
(I also have trouble with the fact that offense MUST be taken by the faithful. There are always idiots who hold contrary and irritating opinions about everything. Why can't you just let them go? But, maybe, as you say, I won't understand it as a non-religious person).
Camille: I am not sure about the responsibility part of free speech. If we are all responsible, we wont need protection of laws. Its the irresponsible speech which needs to be protected.
I am such a masochist...cannot BELIEVE I'm replying to you. >:(
Yea very few cultures come up "with genius idea" [sic]. Of course NO form of censorship exsists in america...oh no...land of the free, right?
Do you know how to say "hypocritical"? Or "hypocrite"? Look it up.
May I please,
I would suggest you look up Wikipedia article of free speech, and ACLU's take on free speech. In fact, ACLU has defended Neo-Nazi, KKK, and even Mel Gibson's dad (who denies holocaust) right to freedom of speech. Freedom is speech is not some touchy-feely, love thy neighbor, be respectful notion. It stands as it is.
The key is:
For instance, the United States First Amendment theoretically grants absolute freedom, placing the burden upon the state to demonstrate when (if) a limitation of this freedom is necessary.
The state has to demonstrate the limitation - the burden is on them. As such, everyone is granted free speech.
These were Rezia's quote, not mine.
rezia, i understand your point, and i think people should often self-censor themselves before speaking (and quite frankly, many do). however, the value of free speech is that everybody has the freedom to say what they want - it is up to individuals or society to give it the value/importance they think it deserves. please don't be offended, but perhaps your age has something to do with it - when i was your age, i really did not know the intricacies of the free speech dialogue, and, yet, 10 years (and a law degree - which was key to my understanding) later, on the whole, it makes a lot of sense to me. the danger of curbing free speech outside of the incitement/induce harm situations is that then we have to figure out which speech it is to curb - but who decides, and what speech is cured? this is quite a slippery slope and may well end up being too subjective. if you are really interested in this, i would suggest reading up on the history of free speech in this country - it's really quite interesting, and made me think very differently about the entire concept. in the meantime, here is one of my favourite quotes on the subject :
"The principle of free thought is not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought we hate." US Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes in United States v. Schwimmer (1929).
I guess I'm having a bit of a hard time articulating what I mean, but please bear with me. It's not that I believe free speech shouldn't exist. I just think that an oversimplified and uncomplicated understanding of the many things that factor into "free speech" also allows people to assume that their actions do not have consequences. AlCfD, I understand the point about "irresponsible speech" and would normally agree with you. That said, I think people often hide behind the term "free speech" in order to say that vocal outcry is unwarranted. To be more specific, I have seen people say blatantly racist things and then pretend to be surprised when others publicly denounce their comments. The denunciation is not of free speech, but of its content. That's the point of conversation or the virtue underlying free speech to begin with -- that it engages in some kind of dialogue, as Rezia mentioned. That said, I have also seen those same individuals say that they should not be held responsible for the content of their comments because they interpret "free speech" to mean a free pass to say whatever they want without repercussions, criticism, or reaction. My overall point was that, knowing that what you say may warrant offense, you should be prepared to be met with vocal opposition, and that opposition should not automatically be demarcated as "anti free speech."
i tend to be of the belief that if my conviction is strong enough, there is no point to taking offense at what others say. if i did, it would mean either my belief is weak/incorrect, or my conviction in it is. in many ways, someone who disrespects the religion or belief enough will never have respect for it - so my energy would be wasted in trying to change their minds.
so, then, rezia, the question is : do you respect people's right to voice the speech, even if you don't respect/agree with its contents?
Amardeep, your in the Chicago Sun-Times!!!
I was reading it today and they had a article about rushdie and they quoted you and mentioned SepiaMutiny.com
(I also have trouble with the fact that offense MUST be taken by the faithful. There are always idiots who hold contrary and irritating opinions about everything. Why can't you just let them go? But, maybe, as you say, I won't understand it as a non-religious person).
Rahul*,
As I said, we're essentially speaking different languages. I'm confused, why can't I let who go? The idiots?
It's squishy as Camille said. With these protests, I don't know if it's the provoker or the provoked (ie the provokee) who is more responsible.
It's not about being touchy-feely. Do you see David Duke or Mel Gibson's father being given a knighthood though? I don't, and if they were I WOULD be offended and angry. I was just going about my life very peacefully until a few days ago when I read about this...I didn't even care about Rushdie. If ever people talked about him and got all huffy, I would be like "meh...he looks like satan, would you want to look like satan?" I would ask. That always got them. It got them. They loved it.
But now! I can visit my homepage (BBC) because his face leers at me. Those eyebrows...he's only missing a pitchfork and tail, I can't bear it! It's like the British establishment is saying "MUHahahahaha, we know you hate this guy, but we're gonna knightify him anyway...and there's nuthin you can do about it see??" And then maybe they tweak someon's nose. I don't know. I don't know if I WANT to know.
i tend to be of the belief that if my conviction is strong enough, there is no point to taking offense at what others say. if i did, it would mean either my belief is weak/incorrect, or my conviction in it is. in many ways, someone who disrespects the religion or belief enough will never have respect for it - so my energy would be wasted in trying to change their minds.
ak,
I agree with you! I do!! I've never bothered about Rushdie before this. Of course I find his work offensive...but I can overlook that (see above). What I have a problem with is this knighthood. It's like I said before. But whatever though...I think the queen totally has a face like a toad. The entire royal family is just unforgivably ugly, I think.
Do you see David Duke or Mel Gibson's father being given a knighthood though?
Well, David Duke almost became the Governor of Louisiana. That carries more mojo than any ceremonial knighthood from has-been power.
Knighthood to Rushdie is for the body of serious work (he has written a lot, in fact, his most well known book is Midnight Children), and 10 years of hell he went through - You might not like him and his knighthood, Well, that is fine and justifiable. I personally think of Rushdie as egotistical but then I am not calling for his head. He is British, and the British establishment has all right to honor him.
The question is not: Whether you like him or not. You have the right to judge him and be vocal about it. The question is: Does he deserve a violent wrath or should he be censored or the freedom of speech questioned. The answer is absolutely no.
rezia, not much love for the queen, eh? i was rather baffled by helen mirren's oscar acceptance speech. but if you disregard the royal family, then i guess their honours should mean very little to you? these days, very few honours/awards, as discussed above, hold much weight, and this is one of them. this is another. if it makes you feel any better, rushdie and others got passed over for chinua achebe for the man booker prize, in honour of his overall literary career.
The british empire was a creation of the 17th century East India Company, and was mostly economic, not genetic. Such corporations still exist, in a less blatant form. But once the British went home, there was scarcely a genetic trace left in the sub-continent. I do not have the impression many immigrants in Europe ever intend to go home. It is the numbers game, not religious claptrap. Muslims especially seem to feel strength in numbers. Have Empires usually handled their karmic debts by allowing the once-colonized to come one and all to the once-colonizers? Dunno. The Romans considered all members of their empire citizens (except for slaves and, i think, females), and the Moguls may have welcomed a few Hindu craftsmen, but there was no mass movement of conquered Indians into Persia. Airplanes and computers (among other things) have changed such passive torpor, making mass movement easy and normal. And since so many are able and ready, they must maintain they have the "right." I think we do in a way. But ultimately it is the numbers game. I think these countries want to maintain their nations for people who are "like" themselves. It's all very un-age-of-Aquarius, but there you are. to many of these euros, massive immigration, especially of groups like Muslims who are perceived as having opposing values, = national suicide. There are precedents--certain American indians may be considered to have been too accommodating to their foreign guests.
Ikram says Rushdie is of "Iranian descent" the way all Indian Muslims are. OK, if you say so. But I think there have been discussions on this matter and it has been determined that most Indian Muslims are not much different in their ancestry from Hindus. Most, not all. DNA studies were used to support this contention. Whatever you say, but if I saw him and didn't know him from any other scary-eyebrowed chap, I don't think "Indian" would spring to mind. He also reminds me of Stanley Kubrick. I'm neither a great fan, nor a great detractor. I like him more than I dislike him.
But I bow to your greater powers of observation, no sarcasm intended.
Rezia,
You seem to underestimate the effect of the Iranian fatwa. There were quite a few more fatwas issued in support this Iranian fatwa in India and Pakistan (which got the book banned in India). I suspect similar fatwas were issued in other Muslim countries also after the Iranian fatwa.Your question seems to be that how can free speech venerating Amardeep & others admire Rushdie?
One should be able to voice their opinions as long as there is no physical harm and others can criticize person right back. But no one should have the right to impose ones opinions on others through violence. And that is what Muslims (or most visible of them) are trying to do. And Rushdie was a highly visible symbol of those who stood against this physical intimidation (regardless of whether his opinions are respected or correct or his motives about writing offensive work). So that is why I admire Rushdie (apart from his literary work).
Rushdie is of Kashmiri descent. He says as much somewhere, perhaps in Imaginary Homelands And Amardeep, having read the book, I understand that Rushdie is attempting to tackle the grand narrative of islam; however, at times what comes through is a prejudice in favor of the Orientalist's narrative of Islam, rather than a thorough going deconstruction that is both anti-racist in regards to the Western characterizations of Islam and its prophet and opening up of different possibilities of Islamic interpretation. One of the obvious strategies that Rushdie uses both to situate his novel within the context of the West and to parody its tropes is to refer to Muhammad as Mahound. This has parallels of course to homosexuals referring to themselves as "queers" as a way of appropriating the negative and both mocking the power structure that marginalizes such minorities and celebrating the radical alterity of this outside position. Similarly African-Americans have been referring to themselves as "niggah" as a way of demarcating their outsider status while affixing its positionality (whereas in the mouths of Southern Whites it was a means of disappearance and dehumanization) though a signification of recognition. However, just as when a white man occasionally refers to a black person as a "niggah" and a sense of its usage from the the Old South comes through, so too does Rushdie's appellation of Muhammad as Mahound in the novel comes through as less as an act of love (perhaps one does not need to love one's characters in one's novels) than an act of sneering condescension in the Old European sense. It is apropos that Rushdie was knighted; he has (in interviews) spoken with reverence and an inkling of mysticism of cathedrals; I don't recall having him, either in interviews, or his narrator in the Satanic Verses speak of the desolation of the desert or the spaces of a mosque as suggestive of the sublime. I believe in "Imaginary Homelands" Rushdie writes of V. S. Naipaul who wrote the "The Enigma of Arrival" and disapprovingly. I suppose too now that Rushdie has resolved the riddle that Naipaul spoke of in his novel. Bravo, Salman, you've made it. Congrats!
BTW, guys a lot of anti-Islamic/ anti muslim sentiments here. Whatever happened to that good old political correctness? I am nostalgic.
Camille:
Do you think it possible that one can legitimately be anti-Vaisnava or anti-Shaiva? Anti-Christianity? Do you think there is any purpose to 'anti-X' polemics? I can only speak about the traditions I know best--the various Hindu ones--but inter-tradition polemics, employing both reason and ridicule (sometimes more of one than the other, of course) were key to the development of those traditions.
And not just the 'religious' darshanas, but philosophy in the 'technical' sense: The ever-increasing sophistication of Indian epistemology, for example, is owed in no small measure to vigorous intra- and inter-tradition polemics. I would argue that free speech doctrine is valuable precisely for ensuring the possibility of vigorous, polemical debate. I very much regret the ever-increasing competitive intolerance (a phrase Nitin Pai of The Acorn blog coined) in both India and elsewhere.
Btw, for those who are interested, Mr. Rushdie's maternal grandparents were Kashmiri.
Regards,
Kumar
Yes, Rushdie is Kashmiri.
He was on NPR a year or so ago, and he talked of Kashmir at great length.
camille,
i really don't get what you are saying. i have no problem with people denouncing or yelling at me. i certainly don't send a lawyer to sue all the people who have accused me of being a racist, a sand nigger, islamist or an islamophobe (the last i glory in, i don't like islam and most muslims). people can say what they want. who is disagreeing with this? muslims seem to think their silly superstition should be protected from insult. why? in much of the world silly superstitions, whether muslim, christian, hindu, jewish, etc. are protected from blasphemy (on occasion on pain of death). how about a little space for those of us who get tired of the supernatural idolatry and want to air our opinion? does our existence and our opinion constitute a violation against the sensitivities of our fellow citizens?
look, i think it should be legal for you to accuse anyone's mother of being a whore. that's free speech. if someone beats the crap out of you, that should be illegal, though in common law i assume there will be mitigating circumstances. that's free speech, and consequences. you call a person's mother a whore, expect the consequences. take the law into your account, expect the consequences. that being said, even if a man or woman's mother is a whore it is often polite not to bring this up, that's human decency. if this thread were about the fact that muslims in rwanda often sheltered tutsis and refused to participate in the genocide and were not suborned like the catholic church in what happened in that nation (see here), i certainly wouldn't be vocal in my anti-islamic opinions. there's a time and place for everything. there's the good and the bad in everything. in this case we are discussing the knighthood of man who was threatened with death by believers in the muslim religion for insulting their religion. in this case the context justifies calling a whore a whore. that's free speech.
(though this is private property, so deletion of this comment wouldn't constitute censorship in my books)
Nice post, Amardeep. I had no idea about Rushdie's position on racism, etc. But he still was always my hero for putting an end to Mulk Raj Anand/Anita Desai's dead-serious-now-we-are-talking-third-world style of writing. His inventiveness in Midnight's Children is truly breathtaking, and I can only imagine what it must have felt like in 1981 to the first readers of the book.
I believe Rushdie commented once that only after conquering the english language can we truly claim our freedom. I am not sure what to make of his comment: but the OBE title certainly makes it ironic. In any case, anti-colonial protests suddenly seem so 20th century. Indian writing in english has surely taken off, though a tad overhyped, but the future looks good. And midnight's children is certainly a book, to use Rushdie's own phrase, to start a dynasty on. :)
p.s. and just for the record, salman rushdie isn't david duke. most muslims who i've talked to who actually read the satanic verses weren't deathly offended (though some complained of his prose style).
Was fatwa limited to Iran, and their lackeys or a cultural phenomena? The answer is No. There was related violence in more than dozen countries.
Here is the timeline:
* September 26, 1988: The novel is published in the UK.
* October 5, 1988: India bans the novel's importation.
* November 21, 1988: Grand sheik of Egypt's Al-Azhar calls on Islamic organizations in Britain to take legal action to prevent the novel's distribution
* November 24, 1988: The novel is banned in South Africa and Pakistan; bans follow within weeks in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Somalia, Bangladesh, Sudan, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Qatar.
* December 1988-January 1989: British Muslims hold book burnings in Bolton and Bradford; Islamic Defense Council demands that Penguin Books apologise, withdraw the novel, destroy any extant copies, and never reprint it.
* February 12, 1989: Six people are killed and 100 injured during anti-Rushdie protests in Islamabad, Pakistan.
* February 13, 1989: One person is killed and 60 injured in anti-Rushdie riots in Srinagar, Jammu and Kashmir, India[citation needed].
* February 14, 1989: Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini of Iran issues a fatwa calling on all Muslims to execute all those involved in the publication of the novel; the 15 Khordad Foundation, an Iranian religious foundation or bonyad, offers a monetary reward for the murder of Rushdie.
* February 16, 1989: Rushdie enters the protection programme of the British government and issues a statement regretting the offence the novel has caused; Khomeini responds by reiterating: "It is incumbent on every Muslim to employ everything he has, his life and his wealth, to send [Rushdie] to hell."
* February 17, 1989: Iranian leader Ali Khamenei says Rushdie could be pardoned if he apologises.[4]
* February 18, 1989: Rushdie apologizes just as Khamenei has suggested; initially, Irna (the official Iranian news agency) says Rushdie's statement "is generally seen as sufficient enough to warrant his pardon".[5]
* February 22, 1989: The novel is published in the U.S.A.; major bookstore chains Barnes and Noble and Waldenbooks, under threat, remove the novel from one-third of the nation's bookstores.
* February 24, 1989: Iranian businessman offers a $3 million bounty for the death of Rushdie.
* February 24, 1989: Twelve people die in anti-Rushdie rioting in Bombay, Maharashtra, India[citation needed].
* February 28, 1989: Two bookstores in Berkeley, USA, are firebombed for selling the novel.
* March 7, 1989: Britain breaks diplomatic relations with Iran.
* March 1989: The Organization of the Islamic Conference calls on its 46 member governments to prohibit the novel. The Revolutionary Government of Zanzibar sets the punishment for possession of the book as three years in prison and a fine of $2,500; in Malaysia, three years in prison and a fine of $7,400; in Indonesia, a month in prison or a fine. The only nation with a predominantly Muslim population where the novel remains legal is Turkey. Several nations with large Muslim minorities, including Papua New Guinea, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Kenya, Tanzania, Liberia, and Sierra Leone, also impose penalties for possessing the novel.
* May 1989: Popular musician Yusuf Islam (formerly known as Cat Stevens) gives indirect support for the fatwa and states during a British television documentary, according to the New York Times, that if Rushdie shows up at his door, he "might ring somebody who might do more damage to him than he would like... I'd try to phone the Ayatollah Khomeini and tell him exactly where this man is." Yusuf Islam later denies giving any support to the fatwa.[6] For more on this topic see Cat Stevens: Rushdie Controversy
* June 3, 1989: Khomeini dies.
* 1990: Rushdie apologised to Muslims and even formally re-converted to Islam,[7] but recanted a short time later describing it as the "biggest mistake of my life" in an interview he gave to Anne McElvoy of The Times published on August 26, 1995.
* 1990: Rushdie publishes an essay on Khomeini's death, "In Good Faith", to appease his critics and issues an apology in which he seems to reaffirm his respect for Islam; however, Iranian clerics do not retract the fatwa.
* 1990: Five bombings target bookstores in England.
* July 1991: Hitoshi Igarashi, the novel's Japanese translator, is stabbed to death; and Ettore Capriolo, its Italian translator, is seriously wounded.
* July 2, 1993: Thirty-seven Turkish intellectuals and locals participating in the Pir Sultan Abdal Literary Festival, die when their hotel in Sivas, Turkey, namely the Madimak Hotel, is burnt down by 2000 members of various anti-democratic, pro-sharia radical Islamist groups protesting against Aziz Nesin, Rushdie's Turkish translator.
* October 1993: The novel's Norwegian publisher, William Nygaard, is shot and seriously injured.
* 1993: The 15 Khordad Foundation in Iran raises the reward for Rushdie's murder to $300,000.
* 1997: The bounty is doubled, to $600,000.
* 1998: Iranian government publicly declares that it will not carry out the death sentence against Rushdie. This is announced as part of a wider agreement to normalise relations between Iran and the United Kingdom. Rushdie subsequently declares that he will stop living in hiding, and that he regrets attempts to appease his critics by making statements to the effect that he is a practicing Muslim. Rushdie affirms that he is not, in fact, religious. Despite the death of Khomeini and the Iranian government's official declaration, the fatwa remains in force, according to certain members of the Islamic fundamentalist media:
"The responsibility for carrying out the fatwa was not the exclusive responsibility of Iran. It is the religious duty of all Muslims – those who have the ability or the means – to carry it out. It does not require any reward. In fact, those who carry out this edict in hopes of a monetary reward are acting against Islamic injunctions."[citation needed]
* 1999: An Iranian foundation places a $2.8 million bounty on Rushdie's life.
* January 2002: South Africa lifts its ban on the Satanic Verses ."[8]
* February 16, 2003: Iran's Revolutionary Guards reiterate the call for the assassination of Rushdie. As reported by the Sunday Herald, "Ayatollah Hassan Saneii, head of the semi-official Khordad Foundation that has placed a $2.8 million bounty on Rushdie's head, was quoted by the Jomhuri Islami newspaper as saying that his foundation would now pay $3 million to anyone who kills Rushdie."[9]
* March 2004: 16 years after the first English edition Hungarian translation is published, translator's name not specified for security reasons.
* Early 2005: Khomeini's fatwa against Rushdie is reaffirmed by Iran's spiritual leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, in a message to Muslim pilgrims making the annual pilgrimage to Mecca. Iran has rejected requests to withdraw the fatwa on the basis that only the person who issued it may withdraw it.
* February 14, 2006: Iran’s official state news agency reports on the anniversary of the decree that the government-run Martyrs Foundation has announced, "The fatwa by Imam Khomeini in regard to the apostate Salman Rushdie will be in effect forever", and that one of Iran’s state bonyad, or foundations, has offered a $2.8 million bounty on his life.[3]
* June 15, 2007: Rushdie receives knighthood for services to literature sparking an outcry from Islamic groups.
kush,
fatwa shatwa. who cares? the big issue isn't that a man was threatened with death and that a price was put on his head and a major nation had to provide him with bodyguards. he was insensitive to the superstitions of 1 billion people. let's keep our perspective, shall we?
Do you see David Duke or Mel Gibson's father being given a knighthood though?
I can't believe you are comparing Rushdie to Duke or Gibson. It makes no sense in my book.
One should be able to voice their opinions as long as there is no physical harm and others can criticize person right back. But no one should have the right to impose ones opinions on others through violence. And that is what Muslims (or most visible of them) are trying to do. And Rushdie was a highly visible symbol of those who stood against this physical intimidation (regardless of whether his opinions are respected or correct or his motives about writing offensive work). So that is why I admire Rushdie (apart from his literary work).
Well said; And Midnight's Children is amazing.
BTW, I just happened to read "Midnight's Children" and "Satanic verses". I don't like his style. I liked the novel in parts and somehow it did not compel me to lose sleep and continue reading. And people who know nothing about Islam (history and how it got started) would not find anything wrong with "Satanic Verses". And even for Muslims I'm surprised by the violent reactions, it is not a direct attack on their religion, he uses the fictional characters to insinuate, not like Ambedkar's "Riddles of Hinduism" / the various DK folks' works that directly attack and ridicule Hindu Gods/Goddesses.
But he still was always my hero for putting an end to Mulk Raj Anand/Anita Desai's dead-serious-now-we-are-talking-third-world style of writing. His inventiveness in Midnight's Children is truly breathtaking, and I can only imagine what it must have felt like in 1981 to the first readers of the book.
Midnight's Children was confirmation that it was normal to be an Indian and think in English. I wasn't fluent in any language but English. I was the kid that moved from one city to the next every two years. I grew weary of re-reading existing Indian-English authors, like R.K.Narayan, by the time I hit high-school. Hindi authors were called Hindi authors, so too with the Tamil authors. To me the prefix Indian-English was almost as if they were not good enough. By the time I finished high school I realised they really were not good enough. Reading Midnight's Children in college made me feel liberated. He described the environment we lived directly, well and without guilt.
Midnight's Children was confirmation that it was normal to be an Indian and think in English. I wasn't fluent in any language but English.
That's an interesting, unique viewpoint for me - never thought about it from that perspective, having grown up in the US
Rezib,
Most Christians I know of are fully in favor of liberty. Baptists had a lot to do with probably the First Amendment, and definitely with the non-establishment of national churches in America. Part of this is a very strong committment to soul liberty, to democracy, to populism, and part of it is that Baptists break up churches over the color of the new carpet for the church so planning a nice efficient pogrom is just too hard for us.
But before you blame 'supernatural idolators' for all the evil in the world, just say this tongue twister a few dozen times about atheists---Mao Might Murder Megamillions, Stalin Slaughters,Slays,Starves, Kymer Color Red Kills Casually.
But before you blame 'supernatural idolators' for all the evil in the world
oh, i didn't blame supernatural idolators for all the evil in the world. most evil is committed by supernatural idolators, but that's because most people are supernatural idolaters.
in any case, don't juke & jive with that baptist crap with me. yes, the baptist churches of the united states have a long history of defending separation of church & state going back to the days of thomas jefferson, but that was when they were a powerless evangelical sect on the margins of an anglican dominated colonial establishment. times change, the largest baptist denomination are the southern baptists and over the last generation they've turned away from their historic acceptance of the wall of separation (yes, i know the name richard land, don't front) and some groups have even flirted with nasty dominionists. yes, christians are on average far friendlier to religious liberty than muslims, but that is a REALLY low standard. you're basically asserting here that you're smarter than the special ed kids, good for you!
now, speaking of data, from the future of religion by rodney stark & william bainbridge (1984):
the respondent feels "we should not allow missionaries from non-christian religions to spread their teachings in a christian community."
41% of southern baptists said "yes" to this assertion in the early 1980s (see page 59, or look it up on amazon or google books). wow, that's a lot of baptists in the early 80s giving muslims a run for their $. let's hope things have changed.
Rezia: So what is the point of it? "Free speech is free speech"? How enlightening! I'm sure it took a great of brilliance to come with that.
It didn't take much brilliance to come up with that, but apparently it takes a lot of brilliance to understand a fairly simple concept.
Perhaps you also think Aristotle wasn't that "articulate" when he said "A is A", after all how "enlightening" can that simple statement be.
Rezia:What is the purpose of free speech when you really think about it? What makes it worth having? To say "Yep it's there and we like it and we MUST have it even, and especially if it is offensive" does not address anything at all
I have a right to do anything I please as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights. My right to swing my fist stops where your nose begins, not anywhere else.
My right to free speech isn't limited by a hypersensitive 19 year old's ability to take offense to anything I have to say.
I would be like "meh...he looks like satan, would you want to look like satan?" I would ask. That always got them. It got them. They loved it.
But now! I can visit my homepage (BBC) because his face leers at me. Those eyebrows...he's only missing a pitchfork and tail, I can't bear it!
But whatever though...I think the queen totally has a face like a toad. The entire royal family is just unforgivably ugly, I think.
Rezia you seem consumed by everyone's looks; anyways glad you can state what you want and not have to hideaway b/c of the danger of violence. I'm not Muslim, and to me Rushdie is brilliant and it's great he's got this honor. I can't believe the suffering he must have gone through having to hide, just because some idiots are offended. I feel the same way about any fundamentalists who go about physically abusing or threatening abuse to others just because what they personally hold sacred isn't something the rest of the world holds sacred.
having read some freedom of speech cases in the US law, I realize that freedom of speech can be restricted if it can cause immediate, physical violence....Rushdie writing a book is not that case - he isn't in any holy site "leering" at the muslim imans. Thank god he can exercise his freedom and write his opinions and as many literary critiques find his work brilliant it is quite likely that he would win this award. I really don't think the British govt is in anyway trying to taunt the Islamic beliefs - I'm sure the govt has better things to do want to try to do.
It's unfortunate that these fundamentalists who got all in a huff b/c of Rushdie's book, couldn't get more pissed about the abject conditions that so many people live in in the Middle East and focus on that.
Let me revise your understanding of colonial America. Baptists got offered by the three dominant religious groups of the day "Hey, we three, and you Baptists as the still hefty but a lot smaller than us, will band together to make America a Four Established Church for the Nation society." That doesn't sound like a powerless group to me.
Baptists said 'No.' Soul liberty. Democratic voting in independent churches. Each believer is a priest who can go to God personally without a hierarchy, and can read the Bible himself and be guided by the Holy Spirit. A devotion to personal righteousness. Listen to those religious ideas, and you'll, if you pay attention, hear an echo of the secular ideas that came from them that made America great.
To repeat, 'most Christians are fully in favor of liberty.' Let me add that Baptists seem to be at the head of the tolerance and liberty class. Its true that in that class the Islamofascists are the Special Ed children.
Or as Jerry Pournelle, hard SF author, and winner of some heavy duty awards, put it--
Christians are the most tolerant people in the current three way war. They are commanded to proslytize to all people, but its up to the person what he does with the Truth.
Islamists want you to pay jizya, take second-class status, and submit to their overlordship.
Its only the atheists who don't have any real tolerance for any other point of view.
Now, Rezib, this is not directed directly at you. There are obviously people in all the groups who are tolerant and reasonable just as there are those who are tyrants. But I do think Pournelle is probably right. In a Christian world, Islamists and Atheists get along, and have the horror of seeing a Nativity scene. In an Islamic world, Christians have to pay extra taxes, get beaten, abused in court as their testimony is legally less valuable, etc.. and Atheists...well, they make fine target practise. In an Atheist world, Christians and Islamics get strapped down to 'adjustment devices' and brainwashed with drugs and pain because they are obviously insane and need to be 'treated', or just have really large bombs dropped on their cities until they float away on the morning breeze.
Its interesting that you see atheists saying 'teach your child creationism is child abuse', and one of the most famed people who thought bombing the Palestinians into a genocide was a good idea was an atheist.
I'm pretty sure most Baptists would hate having foreign missionaries come to historic Christian nations, and try to win them over to Hinduism or something, but y'know Jehovah's Witnesses bike around the nation all the time spreading what Baptists would classify as a heresy, and yet, I don't read many, well none, actually, of Mad Baptist Busdrivers and Soccer Moms out running down Jehovah's Witnesses with their SUV's of Doom. Must be that I'm not reading enough news....I'm sure its happening somewhere.
TennWriter, I don't think it is part of the commandments of the Atheist Bible to convert everybody in the world to their point of view. Be it by sweet-talking, persuasion, coercion, or threat.
I meant "Yes a person can have liberty as long as he accepts Jesus as the savior and lord."
In an Islamic world, Christians have to pay extra taxes, get beaten, abused in court as their testimony is legally less valuable, etc
In how many Muslim majority nations do Christians have to pay extra taxes?
Muslims did tax Christians for being Christans. It was one reason for the famous "tolerance" they exhibited--non-Muslims were taxed for being non-Muslim. Christians did something similar to Jews in some countries, which James Michener describes in The Source, in the chapter focussing on the Italian ghetto. I did a bit of googling about Muslims and taxation and found http://www.jrnyquist.com/may14/balkan_boys.htm. It is about Balkan boys who becamse soldiers in the Ottoman empire, not a career trajectory they chose willingly but which often brought considerable rewards. It is not a pedophile site, so don't worry. Muslims had a presence in the southwest of Europe and also the southeast. Muslim ruling presence in the southwest ended with Ferdinand and Isabella, who expelled them along with the Jewish population that refused to convert. On the Southeastern European, Muslim domination did not end till the 20th century, but there was little conflict between them and christians. After all, Indias own Mother Theresa came from Albania and recalled the commingling of Muslim and Christian in her village.
Rahul,
Soul Liberty. My Bible does not command conversion by sword, not that I'm aware of anyways.
I believe the rationalization for atheists goes like this--these religious people are dangerous, actually obviously insane, and likely to cause trouble the source of most evil in the world by their insanity, and they need to be dealt with. Its us or them (which is how I hear the whole Bosnia complete mess got started.)
I think Richard Dawkins said that teaching creationism was child abuse. And you know what you do about child abuse...call the police, arrest the parents, take the kid...
It might have been in Eon by one of the Killer B's (Benford??, Bear...) Hard SF writers that had his heroes drop a virus on the planet Earth that cured everyone of insanity--aka religiousness. Another major SF novel, the name escapes me, had an Enlightenment Point where Humanity finally understood the Universe and realized God did not exist, and created itself (nice burst of total illogic at the end there). Nine million or so humans could not accept this revelation which was forced on them, and committed suicide. The rest became atheists.
Yup, those sure are tolerant people.
I think the real reason is the will to power, and the hatred of God. Or as Huxley author of Brave New World explained that he became an atheist not out of reason, but as part of a program of personal and political liberation.
Circus,
Um, what does Henry Ford, an admittedly fascinating if very flawed individual have to do with this arguement?
Chutiya,
Its called jizya.
If you like freedom, thank a Baptist or a soldier. To make it extra easy, they are frequently the same person.
TennWriter, I did not say conversion by sword. I said Be it by sweet-talking, persuasion, coercion, or threat. And I am quoting you directly when I say: They are commanded to proslytize to all people. And way to throw some Bosnia canard in there! Should I mention how Bush called the war in Iraq a crusade? Surely, he didn't mean it just as a word?
Listen, I don't care if other people are religious. I also don't care (mostly) if religious people think I am a bad person/evil/will go to some imaginary hot place, as long as they do not let their thoughts affect the rules or actions in the public sphere. I do care when religious people get in my face, and keep asking me to change my ways instead of just minding their own goddamned business. This is a fundamental difference between atheists and religious people. I believe this is where a lot of Razib's ire comes from (but can't vouch for it), and I fully sympathize with it, having been on the receiving end of this kind of bigotry/idiocy myself.
I didn't realize that the supreme leader for atheists were hard SF writers. Or Richard Dawkins. Moreover, any dogma they preach is not a binding call to action or behavior by all atheists. If you are going to judge the tolerance of atheism by some hard SF writers, I can play the same game with religious people. Whom do you want me to pick? Fred Phelps? James Dobson? William Donohue? Those Southern Baptists who said it's a wife's duty to obey her husband? Pick any one and we can go. That gets us nowhere quite fast.
As for the arguments for the existence of God, I haven't met one that I'd trust as far as I could throw it. I'm not going to go there though, if you really care enough to inform yourself of those arguments, you can read a thoughtful book like "The Miracle of Theism" by Mackie.
So, what's wrong with personal and political liberation again?
Hi razib and Kumar,
I was not arguing against free speech. I was just validating a portion of Rezia's argument re: whether or not it seems logical to take offense to Rushdie's being knighted, and whether such offense is a critique of "free speech" or a critique of Rushdie's work. I would say the latter for those middle-of-the-road folks who don't fall in Kush's 8-mile long list but who take issue with TSV. I'm too tired to write up something more sophisticated or cogent. The point behind all my free speech babbling was that I think there are a lot of legit questions different people can ask of this knighthood, and many of the questions I find interesting I've already written.
i understand that this is popular but who really wants to read Asimov when they've got much more interesting selections, like China Mieville, on the wall or even a somewhat apocalyptic writer like Herbert (the senior) who characterizes religion in a bit more believable way?
how even can any exchange be between someone living in desperate poverty and a missionary visiting from the developed world? Even with the best of intentions and no observable Kipling complex any conversation between a material have-not and a missionary who's grown up with those material goods will mask the have-not's true ambition--to leave poverty and find financial security (as a Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc. although not all of those are missionistic religions and do not proselytize in equal numbers)
even the brown missionary, perhaps visiting an area that he/she's known about intllectually for a long time, is capable of running the same bait-and-switch with no visible mental turmoil/conflict. It's as if class is magically sublimated from the poverty matrix--then the missionary can feel truly altruistic and shed the inconvenient baggage of colonial master.
Muslims did tax Christians for being Christans.
Chutiya, Its called jizya.
Yes, I am aware of that and my question to you is that is there any Muslim majority nation which imposes jizya on its Christian minorities? The operative word of course being is there and not was there.
Right, it was in the past..
From wiki,
[edit] Nineteenth century
In Persia, jizya was paid by Zoroastrian minority until 1884, when it was removed by pressure on the Qajar government from the Persian Zoroastrian Amelioration Fund.[44]
In 1894 jizya was still being collected in Morocco; an Italian Jew described his experience there:
The kadi Uwida and the kadi Mawlay Mustafa had mounted their tent today near the Mellah [Jewish ghetto] gate and had summoned the Jews in order to collect from them the poll tax [jizya] which they are obliged to pay the sultan. They had me summoned also. I first inquired whether those who were European-protected subjects had to pay this tax. Having learned that a great many of them had already paid it, I wished to do likewise. After having remitted the amount of the tax to the two officials, I received from the kadi’s guard two blows in the back of the neck. Addressing the kadi and the kaid, I said” ‘Know that I am an Italian protected subject.’ Whereupon the kadi said to his guard: ‘Remove the kerchief covering his head and strike him strongly; he can then go and complain wherever he wants.’ The guards hastily obeyed and struck me once again more violently. This public mistreatment of a European-protected subject demonstrates to all the Arabs that they can, with impunity, mistreat the Jews.[45][46]
The jizya was eliminated in Algeria and Tunisia in the 19th century, but continued to be collected in Morocco until the first decade of the 20th century.[47]
But thinking about it the countries that now call itself as "Islamic" (with significant minority non-Muslims, like Malaysia (40% non-Muslims), Bangladesh (10% ??) ) participating in OIC( Organization of Islamic Countries) and spending tax money on pan Islamic activities that has no bearing on its non-Muslim minorities could be called as "indirect jaziya" ?? ..
A group of clerics, the Pakistan Ulema Council, has given bin Laden the title ‘Saifullah’, or sword of Allah, in response to the honour for Rushdie, the council's chairman said on Thursday.
"If a blasphemer can be given the title 'Sir' by the West despite the fact he's hurt the feelings of Muslims, then a mujahid who has been fighting for Islam against the Russians, Americans and British must be given the lofty title of Islam, Saifullah," the chairman, Tahir Ashrafi, told Reuters. Bin Laden was one of many Arabs who helped Afghan guerrillas battle Soviet invaders in Afghanistan in the 1980s.
http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007-06-21T185558Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-304169-2.xml
Reacting to free speech without violence, doesn't come naturally to people. A well traveled, and well educated person might not react to a verbal insult with physical violence, but the not so-sophisticated types, irrespective of their race/ethnicity, might easily take that to heart and is more prone to react to that with physical violence.. especially so when there is a pervasive feeling that they are being slighted at every opportunity!
On another note, I expected Salman Rushdie to reject an award by a monarch..
Not true in all cases. As an example we have had in Tamilnadu, India a movement called the self-respect movement, whose leader in the 1960s (or 50s) broke the statues of "lord vinayaka" in public, and decorated "lord rama" with a garland of "chappals" etc..etc.. and if you read the DK (Dravidar kazhagam) literature as it is called it is full of "direct and offensive" articles against Hindu gods/goddesses and the literature is well propagated. And this is in a state where more than 90% call themselves some sort of Hindus and in 60s not fully literate / sophisticated. There was literally no violence against the persons concerned and in fact they have been given the power to rule (in one form or another) over the last 40 years and the leader E.V.Ramasamy is praised and decorated as "Periyar". Even Mayawati who recently won the elections in UP dedicated her victory to various leaders and that included 'Periyar".
Ponniyin Selvan:
I think your analogy is not a good one.
The ethos of the 50s was different from now. There was a sincere effort to practice tolerance. Rajaji was still highly regarded. Whenever Periyar raised a controversy, Rajaji helped to bring down the temperature. Moreover Periyar was seen as somebody challenging the brahmins. Even activities like garlanding Lord Vinayaka with slippers was seen as a challenge to the brahmins. Even today, many people ask why the DK never interferes in mosques, churches, gurudwaras, jain temples, Hindu temples with non-brahmin priests.
I don't think so. It was in response to
race/ethnicity/religion could matter when some behaviors are seen to be more normative within that particular group than others.
Why is it that religion (the thing that millions of people hold so very very dear to thier lives, the thing that allows them spirituality) can be insulted in any way, and when offense is taken by the faithful (as it MUST be) it is characterized as "foaming at the mouth"?
I think it's the calls for Rushdie's death and suicide bombings that are (accurately) characterized as "foaming at the mouth". Noting the Shiv Sena's reaction to "The Moor's Last Sigh" and the unofficial ban on the book in India, it's fair to say that such intolerance of free speech isn't peculiar to any religion.
Can one not be moderate and still find the beauty of traditional religion moving? Is it required that a moderate person not be offended by attacks on thier religion, by misrepresentations?
It's required, I think, that a moderate person refrain from responding to another's stated views with violence and threats of violence.
PS,
"Rezia you seem consumed by everyone's looks; anyways glad you can state what you want and not have to hideaway b/c of the danger of violence"
Whatever, it's the arrogance of youth and beauty, and I really couldn't care less to be honest. The queen does look like a great toad.
Vinter and the rest of you A is A people,
Maybe it's a good idea to oversimplify these comlex issues to your cute little buzzwords...it probably is less taxing for your dimunitive IQs than to contemplate complex things.
"I have a right to do anything I please as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights. My right to swing my fist stops where your nose begins, not anywhere else.
My right to free speech isn't limited by a hypersensitive 19 year old's ability to take offense to anything I have to say."
Really, Vinter? Does that mean my right to free speech entitles me to tell you to go play with your family jewels? I'm guessing your nose doesn't begin there...
And don't call me hypersensitive.
PS. Moderators, please don't delete me...I'm illustrating a point.
The ban (which was temporary) was because of fear of violence due to a caricature of Bal Thackeray in the book, who is not a hindu religious figure by any standards. Similarly, the James Laine issue was a result of a perceived insult to Shivaji, another non-religious figure. Hinduism != hindutva. The latter is a different and surprising secular reading of history which treats hindus as a homogeneous ethnic community with a distinct identity. Its kind of like Hitler's insistence that jews were a race and not just followers of a certain religion.
I am not saying this just to make the standard argument that apologists for most religions make whenever they see a flaw with their** religion: 'that is not really what our religion is about. This is a flaw that crept in due to xyz reasons'. There are many problems with hinduism (caste, untouchability), but intolerance is not one of them. And confusing hinduism with hindutva might actually make it one. If we say that hinduism is the same as hindutva, I am afraid the average hindu might actually end up seeing those loons as part of hinduism: just a more hardline part. I do not want hindutva to get that kind of acceptance.
** I am an atheist, but I'd admit I have a certain amount of cultural attachment with hinduism: I don't believe in the six million gods, but I think they are kind of cute.
Sorry about the threadjack.
Rezia, if you don't want to be deleted, quit implying that other people are stupid because they disagree with you (#291), and quit telling people to "go play with their family jewels" (#292). Deleting comments where people engage in name-calling is a no-brainer for us.
Free speech is essential legally. No one should be imprisoned or killed for what they say or write. If you don't have that freedom, everything else crumbles. (Read Orwell's "1984" to see what I mean) Here the people who say "free speech = free speech" are absolutely correct.
But obviously, even in a free society particular *environments* have different norms of acceptability -- often dictated by the rules of the free market. News organizations in the U.S., for instance, generally don't allow people to make bigoted statements because they want the broadest possible viewership. If NBC allows Don Imus to say whatever he wants about black women, they will lose sponsors and possibly viewers. "Private" self-censorship is a way of managing hateful speech in the mainstream arena. For the most part, it works (though it's true that Fox News gets away with a lot of things that I personally find offensive).
The question with Rushdie shouldn't be about free speech vs. censorship at the legal level, it should be about whether or not the novel constitutes "hate speech" that a mainstream publisher would not want to be associated with for commercial/reputation reasons. For some readers the novel might reach that point -- but for most people, it doesn't.
The novel really is -- and again, I would encourage you to actually read it cover to cover -- a critique of *fundamentalisms* (including Sikh, Hindu, and Christian varieties as well as Muslim), not a manifesto "against Islam."
I dont think a lot of countries in the ME like Iran and Egypt make such a legal distinction. free speech is not so enshrined out there. say something against !slam, your toast...
not sure about egypt. they r secular. iran though...
Puliogre,
I dont think a lot of countries in the ME like Iran and Egypt make such a legal distinction. free speech is not so enshrined out there. say something against !slam, your toast...
Yes, well Iran at least is not even remotely a free society. Egypt might come a little closer, but they routinely arrest bloggers and journalists even if they make the smallest of criticisms of the government. From what little I know, I would not call it a free society either.
In an ideal world, it would be up to publishers and bookstores to decide whether to sell a possibly controversial or offensive book -- in other words, whatever limits on freedom of speech there are should only be *private*.
Ooooops totally stupid way to post. This is what it SHOULD look like:
"Free speech is essential legally. No one should be imprisoned or killed for what they say or write. If you don't have that freedom, everything else crumbles. (Read Orwell's "1984" to see what I mean) Here the people who say "free speech = free speech" are absolutely correct." "
No one should be imprisoned or killed for what they write? When did I imply that they should be? You're just taking this fatwa and running with it. The fatwa really was more of a token thing from Iran, where I don't think Rushdie ever lived. Yes a lot of sheiks, and probably a lot of muslims agreed with the fatwa, but that is something that a non-muslim, or non-religious person would never understand. I'll try to explain it but it might be a bit beyond you (if you're non-religious). Rushdie wrote filthy things about the prophet (SAW); now don't tell me he did not, it is really entirely known that he did. To practising muslims the prophet (SAW) is dearer than one's own parents. This might be ridiculous to you, but it is the basis of the faith of 1.5 million people and you can't just dismiss this out of hand. OK, so that is why the offense was taken in the first place: it's analogous to someone saying filthy things about someone's parents. You may not see it that way, but that's the way it is. It need not be a manifesto against Islam for it to be offensive. Don Imus didn't spew a manifesto against africans.
Now, that was many, many years ago...if you had asked about Rushdie a month ago, it wouldn't have been a big deal. Most people had stopped caring about this issue a long time ago. But this knighthood does rake up the past. It seems to be a move to court diplomatic distress. Rushdie may be persona non grata to most muslims but to honour him in this way rankles.
It's like if Rudyard Kipling or Joseph Conrad were living today and were honoured in this way, I'm sure many Indians and Africans would not be exactly blissfully happy. And please, enough with the "it's just an arachaic relic of an award"...that is SO irrelevant.
"Here the people who say "free speech = free speech" are absolutely correct."
Don't you mean you think that those people are correct?
Why do you call the fatwa 'token' if, as a result of it, Rushdie had to literally hide to save his life? Am I missing something?
It's like if Rudyard Kipling or Joseph Conrad were living today and were honoured in this way
I can see how people would be insulted in such a situation, I can see how people can be insulted in Don Imus's situation, I can see slightly see how Hindu fundamentalists were insulted by their sacred Hindu women being kissed by Richard Gere, I can see how Muslims who think Rushdie wrote crap about their Prophet could be insulted....That's fine to be insulted b/c of freedom of speech. Hey I get insulted all the time. But when a group of people, think they have the right to take that insult and threaten another man/woman's life - that's what I don't understand and find reprehensible.
I think I could understand how someone would/could be insulted by Rushdie's writings...I haven't read the book, but I do hope that people who say they are insulted have read the book at least.
Do you agree with me, in not understanding how people can react with violence or violent threats, (that are believable enough threats that you have to hide, and your life is turned upside down)b/c of something a writer wrote?
Do you agree with me, in not understanding how people can react with violence or violent threats, (that are believable enough threats that you have to hide, and your life is turned upside down)b/c of something a writer wrote?
Ye-ees. I agree with you PS. Violence is not a good response and totally self-defeating. Violence is not the answer to Rushdie. I've always thought that the Muslim world would have done better to ignore him--not give him the fame he seeks. He is very offensive in every way so fuggedaboudid.
The award now is especially offensive. Like one for Kipling would be.
OK I'm done here. I'm not replying anymore, not because anybody's superior logic has caused me to change my mind about anything...but because I'm going to Paris for a week and I need to start packing.
The novel really is -- and again, I would encourage you to actually read it cover to cover -- a critique of *fundamentalisms* (including Sikh, Hindu, and Christian varieties as well as Muslim), not a manifesto "against Islam."
Amarpeed,
I'll read TSV cover to cover if you read the Quran cover to cover.
The fatwa really was more of a token thing from Iran, where I don't think Rushdie ever lived. Yes a lot of sheiks, and probably a lot of muslims agreed with the fatwa, but that is something that a non-muslim, or non-religious person would never understand.
The Fatwa, as a death sentence issued by one government against a citizen of another country, was a violation of international law. It led the British government to sever diplomatic ties with Iran. It was not a "token" thing. The people who ended up acting on the Fatwa, in Japan, Italy, and San Francisco (to name just three places where it led to acts of violence) were not necessarily Iranians, or for that matter Shias.
Rushdie wrote filthy things about the prophet (SAW); now don't tell me he did not, it is really entirely known that he did.
You lose your argument right there. You don't even know what he said! "It is known that he did" -- by whom? Who told you this? Someone at your Mosque? Your parents? See for yourself, or you really have no basis on which to argue. If you simply blindly accept what people tell you, you'll never learn the truth.
I'll read TSV cover to cover if you read the Quran cover to cover.
Actually, I have read the Quran "cover to cover" -- in English translation.
"Actually, I have read the Quran 'cover to cover' -- in English translation."
Reading the Quran "Cover to Cover" is not of a piece as reading a novel or another text from beginning to end. The arrangement of the suras or chapters in the quran have their own peculiar sensibility (insofar as there is a sensibility to be sensed there at all). A novel or even a mathematics text builds on itself and layers of meaning accrue in later chapters or parts of it. The same doesn't necessarily hold of the Quran. The beginning may have a relationship to a historic relationship to the middle and the end suras may actually have been historically received at the outset of the revelatory onset of Islam. So when someone says they have read the Quran from cover to cover, unless they were/ are believers or doing some sort of personal or scholarly research and can then say that they came up with sort of a meaningful insight onto the phenomenon of Quran/ Islam and Muslims, I have a tendency to take their avowal of having read the Quran from "cover to cover" as nothing more than having leafed through it from the beginning until the end. Unfortunately there is no Cliffs Notes or Idiot's Guide to the Quran available, so even these cannot give one aid in making a somewhat derivative, though transparent, statement about the text. Saying that one has read the Quran from "cover to cover" is a proclamation that makes apparent its own shallowness, especially in the absence of an assessment that comes to terms with the Quran and its transformative historical effect. If you did not become transformed (and you have no accounting for it) your reading the book from "cover to cover" was nothing more than a distant scanning through without benefit of secondary sources to assist you.
there is. see this.
Tabeer,
especially in the absence of an assessment that comes to terms with the Quran and its transformative historical effect.
What do you mean by this? "comes to terms with the Quran"....I think that is something that fundamentalists have a hard time understanding, but isn't coming to terms with Quran pretty subjective? I mean look at all the different sects within Islam.
He is not making any statement here about the quran. YOU are the one basing your whole offence on heresay. Just fyi.
Rezia, Satanic Versus is a work of Islamic Art, and depending on your view of Rushdie's writing style, a very good one. Read it and provide an informed opinion, or mitigate your ignorance with some humility. And no, you don't need to be religious to produce spiritual art. You can find God in the poetry of (Communist) Faiz Ahmed Faiz. It's damn hard to find God in the writings of Maududi.
Read Rushdie with an open mind, the way you'd listen to an alcohol soaked urdu-poet talking about God.
Zaahid sharaab peene de masjid mein baith kar
Ya woh jagah bata de jahan par Khuda na ho
(Zafar)
Yeah, I have read the Quran "cover to cover", the usual way (with a jaahil Mullah in arabic) as well as in translation. It doesn't qualify me to give issue fatwas, or endorse death sentences.
Tabeer:
"So when someone says they have read the Quran from cover to cover, unless they were/ are believers or doing some sort of personal or scholarly research and can then say that they came up with sort of a meaningful insight onto the phenomenon of Quran/ Islam and Muslims"
"If you did not become transformed (and you have no accounting for it) your reading the book from "cover to cover" was nothing more than a distant scanning through without benefit of secondary sources to assist you."
--> Does the transformation include meaningful insights on how islam sucks like say, Ibn Warraq ?
Or is it only restricted to transformations that offer unqualified praise on what is written in quran ?
didn't you know that the quoran and sharia are the ultimate truth in the universe? if you read it and dont agree with it, your an idiot. i mean....abiding by the laws of !slam is what makes the middle east a world beating region....
YOU are the one basing your whole offence on heresay.
Heh. Not to pick nits, but do you mean "heresy" or "hearsay"? I find it sort of amusing that both words fit in this particular context.
Rezia: Maybe it's a good idea to oversimplify these comlex issues to your cute little buzzwords...it probably is less taxing for your dimunitive IQs than to contemplate complex things.
You seem to like Ad hominems a lot, I suggest you try other logical fallacies. Straw Man, Non sequitur, Definist etc. They are all equally ineffective.
Rezia: Really, Vinter? Does that mean my right to free speech entitles me to tell you to go play with your family jewels? I'm guessing your nose doesn't begin there...,i.
Yes, you are right, you can say anything you wish to and yes my nose doesn't, indeed, begin there.
And don't call me hypersensitive.
Then don't act hypersensitive.
I said before. But whatever though...I think the queen totally has a face like a toad. The entire royal family is just unforgivably ugly, I think."
Quentin Crisp was of the opinion that Diana was disliked by the RF because she was the first good-looking person to enter Windsor Palace. But then he was such a killer queen himself, he'd brook no competition, and he did detest England. Historically, BRF looks tend to be very good or very bad, the bad lasting longer than the good. The Queen and Consort looked good for about two years. Anyway, according to insiders in the know, Diana soon found out that the British Royal Family are actually reptilian shape-shifters. This, along with careful inbreeding, could explain the odd appearances among them.
Looks very much like a vain attempt to discredit anyone who doesn't agree with or like the Quran. "If you don't like it(or are transformed, whatever that means...) then you never really understood it."
An article in today's New York Times about many Muslim women voluntarily wearing the niqab in public. The last paragraph is telling:
“I’m in Pizza Hut with my son,” said Ms. Khaton, nodding at her 4-year-old and speaking in a soft East London accent that bore no hint of her Bangladeshi heritage. “I was born here, I’ve never been to Bangladesh. I certainly don’t feel Bangladeshi. So when they say, ‘Go back home,’ where should I go?”
Interestingly, why do women choose the niqab over the hijab as an expression of their Muslim identity? Is there an element of provocation/confrontation involved, as one comment in the article might indicate? Or is this what mosques push for?
And close on its heels, a counterpoint article also in today's Times.
Random responses:
and those who insult islam through free speech must understand that they will probably get shot, blown up, or their asses kicked
Once upon a time, people said they would "live free or die", and meant it.
Once upon a time, people thought that free speech was something so important it was worth getting shot at, blown up, or their asses kicked over.
and it is a good argument for why western nations should severely limit immigrations from muslim countries. at least if you believe that the ability to critique religion is an essential part of individual liberty.
...[or in another comment:]
"We don't have anything against Muslims," said Oskar Freysinger, member of parliament for the Swiss People's Party. "But we don't want minarets... The minute you have minarets in Europe it means Islam will have taken over."
I never cease to be baffled by this kind of logic. We want to promote individual liberty and religious freedom, we say, and we're going to do it by picking this one particular group and ensuring they don't get individual liberty and religious freedom-- either by preventing them from displaying their religion in public or by preventing them from entering the country altogether. We're for individual and religious liberty, we say, except for those people, granting them religious liberty would keep me from exercising mine.
But the problem with all this is that once you've established it's okay to pick favorites, you quickly find you have very little control over which favorites get picked. The reasoning I see Razib using here to advocate limiting the exercise of Islam in western nations is the same reasoning that elsewhere I see southern baptists using to advocate limiting the exercise of atheism/homosexuality/whatever...
I think Richard Dawkins said that teaching creationism was child abuse.
As far as I know this is a bit of an exaggeration of what specifically Dawkins said.
Circus,
What you're saying then amounts to a naked allegation against the facts of history.
Rahul,
I have never said Christians are 'we'll never bother you if you don't want to be bothered.' You have to stretch yourself mightlily to say "Get away from me, I don't want to hear it." But the Islamics under Sharia and the Atheists in Communist Russia were not so willing to walk away after a mild expression of disinterest. So, Christians in the three-way cultural war are the most tolerant.
Also, how are we to let you have your freedom from being bothered for ten seconds without a much greater injury to free speech. "I'm sorry, Mr. Christian, you can't offer a tract to someone on the street because they might not like it." That is a major injury to free speech to ameliorate a very minor problem.
Bush meaning it as a word? Probably yes. Americans use 'crusade' to denote a righteous and bold endeavor to deal decisively with a problem. It has secondary religious aspects, but those are decidely secondary. Blame language drift. I fully expect two centuries from now for the Pittsburgh Pirates to be playing the Lunagrad Jihadi for the Football Championship of the Solar System.
Actually, I think Dawkins, or one of his similar level, has been called the 'Pope of Darwinism'. There is a community of atheists, and a community of believers. When prominent leaders in a community go one way, you're entitled to make some conclusions about that community.
You can't use Fred Phelps because pretty much everyone in the Christian community would have to summon their Christian charity to NOT spit on him. If a 'leader' is renounced or reviled generally in a community then that makes the community's standards clear. Althought, just as with Stalin, it does say something unpleasant about the community he's from. So you can have Phelps, lunatic hatemonger, and I'll take Stalin, probably the greatest mass murderer of all time with his competition being Mao, another atheist.
I've looked at the arguements for the existence of God. It seems pretty conclusive to me. Or as Dawkins again said about Creationism 'no matter how counterintuitive' his Darwinism is 'we have to keep the divine foot out of the door'. So, I'll take logic, intuition, and evidence over hand-wavium. I think I may be3 heading toward the personal point where I don't find arguing about atheism that interesting...the arguement is fairly clearly over. Its not yet to the point of 'yes the Earth really is round', tis true.
I'd say the problem with Huxley's program is that it PROBABLY bears too much of a resemblance to Rezia's program. A lot of people confuse their personal liberation with dominance over other people (as you did in the free speech/anti-proselytization bit).
Mural,
I read a bit of China, and quit after four chapters. I'm thinking there was some pedophilia, or something really disgusting involved, and on top of that the writing was painful, and the characters were hard to understand.
However, yes, Asimov, as I've characterized him 'a clear drink of water'. He speaks very plainly, and I suspect he's not nearly as great as he's been made out to be.
I'd like to write down a list of my ten favorite authors, but that would be impossible. I like so many, and for so many different reasons. However, sadly, I didn't find Dune that interesting which I know makes me a minority in the SF community. Lets say, I just finished Orson Scott Card's 'Empire'. I'm reading 'Eridahn' which is a 1970's slim novel about time travel to the dinos. I've opened up again 'Looking Glass' by John Ringo. My library might want their copy of 'West Under the Eagle'?? by Andre Norton back if I can find it. I recently finished 'Rainbow's End' by Vinge (and found it less interesting than most of his novels). And I just turned in 'The Protector's War' by SM Stirling (he doesn't seem mysogynistic and hateful like he used too although he's obviously playing to his market by positing a world where Paganism takes over. Niven and Pournelle and Stirling in Dream Park were a lot more realistic when they said that after a disaster, the well-prepared and well-stocked Mormons did very well indeed in spreading their faith.)
Even? Exchange? Hmmm...how about, guy with the Truth gives it to person needing the Truth. No even, no exchange, just the missionary fulfilling the duty laid on him by God. Now, there is a class element going on, true, in the attraction, but...keep in mind that Christianity if it is the Truth is also a more effective way to live (except for the parts where the local Powers that Be hate you for exposing them as scumbuckets, and take revenge on you, and even that is good for the community.)
One fairly obvious example is that Christianity fosters cooperation (a lot of religions do), and I've seen a fair bit (Charlie Stross, another SF writer is a recent example) of atheists saying that caring for other people is silliness(to be fair, I've also seen a lot of atheists who don't agree). Well, people are free to take that attitude, but group cooperation really works a lot better for most people, and most of the time.
So, I come to a guy, and say. "Get saved." He agrees. Now he sleeps peacefully at night, and doesn't need to drink so much to cope with his fear of death. I also say, "Now that you're saved, there's some advice God has on how He wants you to live." I hand him a Bible. He reads, and finds out that God wants him to accept insult and turn the other cheek. He stops hitting his wife just because she calls him a loser. She stares in complete shock. She becomes a Christian. He learns to love her with all his life at stake. She learns to respect him. They start smiling at each other through the candlelight. Pretty soon, there's a baby in the local church nursery...in a few years, he's moved on up to a small house, and out of the trailer he lived in. But more importantly, he, his wife, and his child which follows the parents' example and gets saved as well, are on their way to Heaven. The economic and social benefits of this are secondary.
This is not an exchange, not primarily. Its a gift which starts from the Giftgiver.
Okay, I think I've responded to everyone who responded to moi. Have a nice day. I may or may not come back to respond, but I found much of interest and quite a lot of intelligence here even as it disagreed with moi.
Perhaps, Jizya is just historical. I'm not qualified to say.
And
Free speech=Free Speech. Count me in as one of those who like this in case that was not obvious already.
Tom Friedman, the undisputed master of the mangled metaphor, strikes again. Apparently, Muslims were told they are Windows Vista or something, but they keep crashing and burning. Thankfully, Hindus are still MS-DOS, so we just hang out waiting for a command prompt. Christians? XP. Or something like that. Sorry I'm unable to summarize Friedman for you, my brain must be flat from being overrun by that Lexus crashing into the Olive Tree. Right?
July 4, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
At a Theater Near You ...
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
London
I knew something was up when I couldn’t get a cab. Then there were sirens and helicopters whirring overhead. I stopped a passerby to ask what was going on. He said something about a car bomb outside a disco six blocks from my hotel. A few hours later, I finally found a taxi. The driver warned me that it was nearly impossible to get across town. Another bomb had been uncovered in a car park. Next day, more news: a suicide bomber had driven his Jeep into an airport and jumped out, his body on fire, screaming “Allah! Allah!”
Where was I? Baghdad? Kabul? Tel Aviv? No, I was in England. But it could have been anywhere. The Middle East: Now playing at a theater near you.
But this movie gets more confusing every time you watch it. When you watched it on 9/11 it was about America’s presence in the heart of Arabia. And when you watched it on 7/7 it was about unemployed and alienated Muslim youth in Britain. In Jordan not long ago it was about a wedding at a Western hotel. In Morocco recently it was about an Internet cafe. And two days ago in Yemen it was about seven Spanish tourists who were killed when a suicide bomber drove into them at a local tourist site. Wasn’t Spain the country that quit Iraq to get its people out of the line of fire?
Because these incidents are scattered, we’re growing numb to just how crazy they are. In the past few years, hundreds of Muslims have committed suicide amid innocent civilians — without making any concrete political demands and without generating any vigorous, sustained condemnation in the Muslim world.
Two trends are at work here: humiliation and atomization. Islam’s self-identity is that it is the most perfect and complete expression of God’s monotheistic message, and the Koran is God’s last and most perfect word. To put it another way, young Muslims are raised on the view that Islam is God 3.0. Christianity is God 2.0. Judaism is God 1.0. And Hinduism and all others are God 0.0.
One of the factors driving Muslim males, particularly educated ones, into these acts of extreme, expressive violence is that while they were taught that they have the most perfect and complete operating system, every day they’re confronted with the reality that people living by God 2.0., God 1.0 and God 0.0 are generally living much more prosperously, powerfully and democratically than those living under Islam. This creates a real dissonance and humiliation. How could this be? Who did this to us? The Crusaders! The Jews! The West! It can never be something that they failed to learn, adapt to or build. This humiliation produces a lashing out.
In the old days, you needed a terror infrastructure with bases in Beirut or Afghanistan to lash out in a big way. Not anymore. Now all you need is the virtual Afghanistan — the Internet and a few cellphones — to recruit, indoctrinate, plan and execute. Hence, the atomization — little terror groups sprouting everywhere. Everyone now has a starter kit.
Gen. Michael Hayden, the C.I.A. director, recently noted in a speech that during the cold war “the enemy was easy to find, but hard to finish,” because the Soviet Union was so big and powerful. “Intelligence was important” back then, he added, “but it was overshadowed by the need for sheer firepower.”
In today’s war against terrorist groups, said General Hayden, “it’s just the opposite. Our enemy is easy to finish, but hard to find. Today, we are looking for individuals or small groups planning suicide bombings, running violent Jihadist Web sites, sending foreign fighters into Iraq.”
I’d go one step further. The Soviet Union was easy to find and hard to kill, but once it died, it was dead forever. It had no regenerative power because it had no popular base. The terrorists of Iraq or London are hard to find, easy to kill, but very difficult to eliminate. New recruits just keep sprouting.
Of course, not all Muslims are terrorists. But it’s been widely noted that virtually all suicide terrorists today are Muslims. Angry Norwegians aren’t doing this — nor are starving Africans or unemployed Mexicans. Muslims have got to understand that a death cult has taken root in the bosom of their religion, feeding off it like a cancerous tumor.
This cancer is erasing basic norms of civilization. In Iraq, we’ve seen suicide bombers blow up funerals and schools. In England, seven out of the eight people detained in the latest plot are Muslim doctors or medical students. Doctors plotting mass murder? Could that be? If Muslim leaders don’t remove this cancer — and only they can — it will spread, tainting innocent Muslims and poisoning their relations with each other and the world.
Actually, I think Dawkins, or one of his similar level, has been called the 'Pope of Darwinism'. There is a community of atheists, and a community of believers. When prominent leaders in a community go one way, you're entitled to make some conclusions about that community.
No. Atheism is not a form of belief, it is nonbelief. Just like bald is not a hair color.
ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਂ ਤੇ ਮਾਰਨ ਜਨਾਨੀ
ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਾਂ ਤੇ ਮਾਰਨ ਜਨਾਨੀ
ਜਿਸ ਕੁਖ ਦੀ ਗਰਮੈਸ਼ ਮਾਣੀ
ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਆਖਣ ਮੈਲੀ ਜ਼ੁਬਾਨੀਂ
ਮਮਤਾ ਨੇ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਪਿਆਰ
ਧਰਮ ਨੇ ਕੀ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਇ ?
ਕੱਢ ਲਈ ਤਲਵਾਰ
ਇਹ ਬੰਦਿਆ ਕੀ ਕੀਤਾ ਈ ?
ਅਨਿੰਓ ਰੱਬ ਤੋਂ ਗਏ ਹੋ ਨੱਸ
ਕਾਹਤੋਂ ਰੱਬ ਤੋਂ ਗਏ ਹੋ ਨੱਸ ?
ਤੀਵੀਆਂ ਮਾਰੀ ਜਾਓ ਹੱਸ ਹੱਸ
ਵਿਰਸੇ ਕੁੱਲ ਦੀ ਕਰ ਦਿਓ ਬੱਸ
ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ ਕੀਹਨੇ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਕਾਜ਼ੀ ?
ਵਾਹ ਮੁੱਲੇ ਨੂੰ ਕਰ ਲਹੋ ਰਾਜ਼ੀ
ਧਰਮ ਨੇ ਆਖਿਆ ਮਾਰੋ ਮਾਂ ?
ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਨੇ ਆਖਿਆ ਮਾਰੋ ਧੀ ?
ਪੰਥ ਨੇ ਆਖਿਆ ਮਾਰੋ ਭੈਣ ?
ਦੀਨ ਨੇ ਆਖਿਆ ਮਾਰੋ ਜੀਅ ?