Hilarious game!

I'm just glad I'm a single brown woman living in the US. I can truly live and be myself here.

How do you score a touchdown in her game? Although maybe getting to third base would be good too...

my aunt in madras kicked out a single female tenant last year due to her 'questionable' nature. reason : she was having an affair with her boss, surmised from the fact that he stayed over at her place twice in the span of fifteen months. i was going to tell my aunt that almost definitely meant there was no action going on there, but refrained so as not to cast aspersions/questions on my own nature - i.e. how would you know?

It's like Twister, with Apple products.

My favorite part is the part where she talks about how there should be a penalty for hitting. "Because there's a temptation to...smack the controller. Some people may like that, I dunno." :-D

I think it's only a matter of time before browndating.com picks this up. A webified flash app, and your partner's biodata in front of you, plus three pop-up pictures of them posing demurely leaned against a tree, or in front of a fountain, or at Niagra Falls. Who needs anything more?

as an aside, i have recently heard a lot about muslims being denied housing in certain parts of bombay, and, apparently, this is not an uncommon practise in particular localities, as applied to all religious groups. on the other hand, gujarati vegetarians have it made in this part of town. no problems with dutching here, i suppose.

This does not only happen to single women. When I moved back to India after my Masters I had a tough time to find a place to rent. It took me almost a month and half before some one relented. Questions range from Why do you want a flat when you are single and living alone, Single guys make lot of noise, bring girls... But I do totally agree that if its difficult for single men to find a place then it will surely be at least 10 times more difficult for single women.

...well, they are already slutty (or at least that is what the landlord quoted below seems to imply when she says “they are used to living on their own”).

Granted it's a 'humor' post, but I didn't get how you arrived at the conclusion from the CSM article. The landlord seemed to merely suggest that western women were used to living alone.

There is also the bit about a single lady who chooses to live with her parents. Now, if you know anything about India, you should know one doesn't have to 'choose' to live with parents/family.

Anyhow, yes, it's generally more difficult for single women, but broadly speaking, it is difficult for all single people over 25 or so - particularly if the landlord has a nubile young daughter :) But there are a lot of single working women that live alone or share a flat. Landlords can be quite irritating, but like everyone else, there's the good, bad and the weird. My experiences have been very positive overall (my parents had quite a different ride).

Where are all those who insisted that the difficulties women have renting in Delhi must be imaginary, when were were discussing this a few weeks ago? It's really hard to deny it, folks, especially when landlords and agents tell you to your face that they won't rent to you because you're a single woman and they don't want to have to worry about your morality. It took me a full month of full-time hunting and I went around with my parents for crying out loud, never had a single male visitor, and still the only person who'd rent to me charged me way above market rate (in an already upmarket neighbourhood) and had Russian hookers renting upstairs. If you were American or European, though, they were fine with renting even to unmarried couples and of course charging them twice the going rent.

god bless america.

SP, Delhi doesn't quite have a great reputation as a (relatively) safe city for women, not sure if that makes it more difficult. The degree of difficulty varies across cities. As for the time taken, believe me, even in relatively relaxed Kolkata it used to take me a while to find an apartment. On occasions I had to field questions about the marital status of my whole family. These days, it's the rent and the 'security deposit' that make all the difference :)

p.s. try finding people to rent to you if you are a single male in the USofA :-) go to the property management companies, they can't discriminate (at least officially). yes, i know it can be done, but there is def. some discrimination.

Been on both sides of the divide - landlord and tenant.
Price is a function of what the market will bear. Differential pricing is the norm in several industries - the same in rental real estate market.

As a single guy tried to find an apartment in southern India - really tough. Once I said that I was in Software - bloody easy.

Single women find it hard - although groups of single women dont find it as hard.
Some landlords refuse to single men while others refuse to rent to single women and yet others refuse to rent to non-vegetarians.
Hardly worth getting worked up over.

Got go in for a meeting - more comments later.

mmm, landlords...worldwide they're a pain. when i lived in southern spain in early 80s my spanish landlady (ie a kind of spanish auntie) complained to me that i had too many "black and brown ("moros y negros") friends traipsing in and out of my apartment." she knew this thanks to my neighbours--her spies, it turned out. but since she was charging me (a foreigner) extra-high rent, she was reluctant to kick me out.

Oh poor Chiya Singh!

It's really hard to deny it, folks, especially when landlords and agents tell you to your face that they won't rent to you because you're a single woman and they don't want to have to worry about your morality.

Single woman status can affect the ability to get jobs as well in the Motherland, from what I hear from specific friends who have tried to explore their prospects out there. One friend was told in at least two interviews to her face that it was not the company/firm's practice to hire single women because they weren't secure employees to hire - the company would have to worry about the women leaving because she was getting married or needing time off because she got pregnant.

SO TRUE! Thanks for bringing this out. And exactly as you said, as if facing parents wasnt enough.

Landlords, whether it be in the upper west side of manhattan, or downtown new delhi, always make some kind of 'lifestyle assessment' of their tenants. It's part of their business, remember 'sloth' from the movie seven? It's not enough to just pay your rent on time. The problem is linking "single-ness" to "sexual ping-pong" As for different attitudes towards foreigners, the same goes here. I have an italian landlord, very nice people, but if I was an italian female tenant, you bet I'd have them in my face, va fangool.

Single woman status can affect the ability to get jobs as well in the Motherland, from what I hear from specific friends who have tried to explore their prospects out there. One friend was told in at least two interviews to her face that it was not the company/firm's practice to hire single women because they weren't secure employees to hire - the company would have to worry about the women leaving because she was getting married or needing time off because she got pregnant.

What utter tosh. Did you just make that story up ?

the company would have to worry about the women leaving because she was getting married or needing time off because she got pregnant. or needing time off because she got pregnant.

It's also rumored that women breathe oxygen too.

lol...this reminds me of the lady who came to "look" at me for one of her relatives. She rejected me and gave a huge lecture about "hostelites" and told us that they knw enough abt girls staying in hostels coz she owns one and knows all the going-ons

Questions range from Why do you want a flat when you are single and living alone, Single guys make lot of noise, bring girls... But I do totally agree that if its difficult for single men to find a place then it will surely be at least 10 times more difficult for single women.

In conservative cities like Chennai it is often times easier for single women to rent a place, especially if the landlored has daughters. Also there are many womens' only hostels which have decent facilities and way cheaper than rent + advance etc. i say just live in one of them and always answer the question "Your place or mine?" with "not mine".

Yes, landlords make lifestyle assessments anywhere, but I find it ridiculous that those of you who are a) not female and b) have never tried to rent in Delhi feel free to say it's "not such a big deal" and just the same as renting anywhere. I've rented on four continents, including the urban US, Europe, the Middle East, and trust me, nothing was as bad as Delhi. And Dipesh, I've heard the reluctance to hire women for the same reason from several family members who have their own businesses. What is it with people dismissing experiences they have no way of confirming or denying?

lol...this reminds me of the lady who came to "look" at me for one of her relatives. She rejected me and gave a huge lecture about "hostelites" and told us that they knw enough abt girls staying in hostels coz she owns one and knows all the going-ons

well, good for you. cuz i bet u dont want to marry into a family where your mother in law is going to be like this woman.
Landlords aside, a LOT of such judgements on women (like 'hostel girls', 'immoral', 'not family type' etc) are made by other women, especially in the desh. I dont see that changing anytime soon.

I had a female American brown friend living in Bombay for a few months who couldn't get a place to rent, so when a male British brown friend arrived for an internship, they suddenly became "cousins" and were able to find a place together. She had lived in Bombay previously in a place supplied by her job, but she was kicked out because the night watchmen decided she was a slut (she came in late and had friends stay over occasionally, but never got any action) and told her boss.

This same friend told me an awesome story from her last trip there...she really needed tampons (she said they consider women who use them to be non-virginal or whatever, making it a stressful shopping experience) the guy at the pharmacy kept not understanding her. Finally a man who was standing there with his wife said loudly, in a thick Indian accent, "You know, tam-PONS!" and wiggled his little finger upwards. The wife looked horrified, and my friend got her box and left. She said that when she needed the morning-after pill a few months later, she forced her boyfriend to get it because she didn't want the pharmacist to ask "Morning after vat?" ;)

They need to enact anti-discrimination public housing laws in Delhi.

These laws have been very successful in the US though there is some evidence that the banks in US do discriminate when it comes to giving out loans to Blacks. But the anti-discrimination laws have taken care of most of the problems in the housing market.

The realtors cant even mention the fact that a particular neighborhood has a lot of blacks. So the realtors have to rely on terms like 'that neighborhood has bad schools' even when the prospective buyer has no kids.

I don't see why this is such a problem. Most landlords in India are not renting multi-story apartment buildings, they are renting rooms that are part of their homes. Why shouldn't they choose to uphold their own values within their homes.

Maybe I'm used to being from the South (Chennai) but this seems like common practice where I live. If people do rent to unmarried girls, they tend to be very protective and almost parental, such as inviting them to share all meals. There are often obvious reasons, such as a family with daughters of their own would hardly want their children exposed to what they think is an immoral lifestyle. Renting to someone is an extremely personal choice, and with the multitude of things that can go wrong, it's hardly surprising that landlords in India are so particular about the lifestyles of their renters.

Let me point out that I am not judging anyone for wanting to live alone or have as much sex as they like. But this seems like another instance of applying western-centric views onto a completely different set of societal values.

I don't see why this is such a problem. Most landlords in India are not renting multi-story apartment buildings, they are renting rooms that are part of their homes. Why shouldn't they choose to uphold their own values within their homes.

Maybe I'm used to being from the South (Chennai) but this seems like common practice where I live. If people do rent to unmarried girls, they tend to be very protective and almost parental, such as inviting them to share all meals. There are often obvious reasons, such as a family with daughters of their own would hardly want their children exposed to what they think is an immoral lifestyle. Renting to someone is an extremely personal choice, and with the multitude of things that can go wrong, it's hardly surprising that landlords in India are so particular about the lifestyles of their renters.

Let me point out that I am not judging anyone for wanting to live alone or have as much sex as they like. But this seems like another instance of applying western-centric views onto a completely different set of societal values.

yeah...but the posts above seem to be talking about "the apartment 1 floor up". sounds like they are talking about apartment buildings...

now...do american brown women count as automatically sl*tty?

G Unit - the apartment I rented was not within someone's home. No meals were shared, no interaction beyond exchanging money. And they'd have a right to worry about my morality if I were their guest, not when I'm paying above market rate to rent the place from them. They don't place the same restrictions on men and families. The old chestnut about "Western centric views" doesn't hold in this article or in my case, because these are Indian-born women in India, adults with responsible jobs, wanting to live alone and feeling frustrated when people refuse to rent to them primarily because they are women.

G Unit - the apartment I rented was not within someone's home. No meals were shared, no interaction beyond exchanging money. And they'd have a right to worry about my morality if I were their guest, not when I'm paying above market rate to rent the place from them. They don't place the same restrictions on men and families. The old chestnut about "Western centric views" doesn't hold in this article or in my case, because these are Indian-born women in India, adults with responsible jobs, wanting to live alone and feeling frustrated when people refuse to rent to them primarily because they are women.

independent veman is vestern concept. ve do not have the s*x here.

now...do american brown women count as automatically sl*tty?

why not? isn't that the big desi fear of coming to america - raise your kids in western education, make them get good jobs (so they can keep bringing us all those american goods) but don't let them become western in the 'ways that count.' this is pretty much my extended family's mentality, and no, i am not surmising - my family is quite blunt about these sorts of things. i have had at least two cousins tell another cousin that they sincerely questioned my chastity since i live alone : 'who knows how many boys she must be bringing over.' obviously, this is not so for everyone, and my family is quite conservative. on the other hand, i think they are not so different in their thinking as other families in madras.

Addendum: most landlords in Delhi have flats on the second and third floors above their homes, with separate entrances and staircases, or different people own different floors. That's how most people live in South Delhi these days, with separate families on each floor. It's not what you'd call a classic apartment building but it functions as one.

Puliogre - good question, IIRC American browns were treated for rental purposes like desi girls, though of course if you were willing to pay a very high rent (and Americans usually were), landlords were willing to overlook a few things.

why not? isn't that the big desi fear of coming to america - raise your kids in western education, make them get good jobs (so they can keep bringing us all those american goods) but don't let them become western in the 'ways that count.' this is pretty much my extended family's mentality, and no, i am not surmising - my family is quite blunt about these sorts of things. i have had at least two cousins tell another cousin that they sincerely questioned my chastity since i live alone : 'who knows how many boys she must be bringing over.' obviously, this is not so for everyone, and my family is quite conservative. on the other hand, i think they are not so different in their thinking as other families in madras.

my parents used to be liberal. the last 6 months since i have started searching for a wife, they have gotten really conservative. all of a sudden if a grl has had a boyfriend she is unacceptable (never minding that they drove me to my grlfriends house in high school), and an Iyer grl is unacceptable "what if she doesnt change her name?! what will society think?! PEOPLE WILL TALK?!"

people get really touchy about mating habits in general...

independent veman is vestern concept. ve do not have the s*x here.

no, ve only have the AIDS and billion-person population (both increasing verrry fast, but ve don't do the s*x here.

Excuse me sorry to be Indian, but what is this s*x you are talking about?

Excuse me sorry to be Indian, but what is this s*x you are talking about?

is somehting vite vemen do. and if u move to umrika ur kids vill do too. is bad.

Hai besharam - don't you know that "s*x" refers to a sixer, aka a batsman hitting the ball over the boundary line?

Hai besharam - don't you know that "s*x" refers to a sixer, aka a batsman hitting the ball over the boundary line?

good, beta....

It is okay to rent to single white girls because…well, they are already slutty (or at least that is what the landlord quoted below seems to imply when she says “they are used to living on their own”).

Granted it's a 'humor' post, but I didn't get how you arrived at the conclusion from the CSM article. The landlord seemed to merely suggest that western women were used to living alone

"Slutty" is a bad thing? I don't think Abhi is even saying that. :)

desis would be really good as the sex counterpart of the soup nazi - no sex for you! in some implicit way, this is the role of these landlords.

1. For many people in India, single women living alone is not a typical or acceptable living arrangement. I am not saying this is preferable, but if I were you I would think twice before assuming that all people must share your views. My mother lived at home until she was 29, when she got married. She was a doctor and made plenty of money, and at no point did she feel "oppressed" by that decision. The same is true of most women in my family even today, and indeed most of the single Indian women I have ever met. However, recognizing that women now hold jobs outside their hometowns, and often must study in different locations, growing numbers of single sex dwellings, hostels and buildings are being created. Also, it is becoming gradually more socially acceptable for young people, both male and female, to live alone before marriage. Perhaps sitting in heart of isolationism and self-centeredness here in America, we call this "progress" but I personally am not so sure that living alone is inherently superior to the extended family arrangement. I think the way many of my friends were essentially kicked out of their homes at 18 or after college, and left to fend for themselves is far more worthy of criticism. Things will change within a generation, but it is unfair to expect social mores to be completely overturned in such a brief period of time.

(Interestingly, many of these traits carry over to the New World; for instance while my American friends are generally financially independent at an early age, many of my Indian friends, especially girls like my sister, do not find it strange to have their parents continue to pay their rent, give them money or buy them homes, even well after they are capable of doing so on their own. Again, I don't see why this is a negative.)

2. I wouldn't go so far as to say that "all western women are sluts," but I would argue (again treading carefully)that its not unrealistic to say that Western attitudes towards sexual conduct especially premarital, are far more relaxed than those in India. Again, I don't see why this is a negative. Of all the Western things that are becoming global trends, I personally consider the casual treatment of premarital sex to be the most damaging, (for both men and women) along with rampant materialism and lack of personal responsability.

It's like Greece, Rome, Egypt, heck all the big empires; as soon as they lost their moral ascendency (though it was generally dubious to begin with) and started tolerating all sorts of perversions, the fall that followed was inevitable. Thankfully, America is fast sliding down that slope; places like China and India that still place some value on personal morality and discipline will ascend correspondingly.

I had a friend (from Madras) in grad school whose dad's major piece of advice to him before coming to the U.S was to stay at work between the hours of 3 to around 9 in the evening, because apparently that's when the women are outside, partying it up, and apparently focused on seducing his boy. He also felt that it was his duty to spread this gospel among all his friends who were coming to the U.S.

As for the serious point about brown women in America, Tamil movies certainly perpetrate the stereotype of the America-returned woman usually wearing skimpy tight clothes and being loose. Whereas it is considered a symbol of status and wealth for a guy.

desis would be really good as the sex counterpart of the soup nazi

Ok, now I have the visual of a moustachioed Tamil guy in a white veshti and Tantex banian yelling this at me.

1. For many people in India, single women living alone is not a typical or acceptable living arrangement. I am not saying this is preferable, but if I were you I would think twice before assuming that all people must share your views. My mother lived at home until she was 29, when she got married. She was a doctor and made plenty of money, and at no point did she feel "oppressed" by that decision. The same is true of most women in my family even today, and indeed most of the single Indian women I have ever met. However, recognizing that women now hold jobs outside their hometowns, and often must study in different locations, growing numbers of single sex dwellings, hostels and buildings are being created. Also, it is becoming gradually more socially acceptable for young people, both male and female, to live alone before marriage. Perhaps sitting in heart of isolationism and self-centeredness here in America, we call this "progress" but I personally am not so sure that living alone is inherently superior to the extended family arrangement. I think the way many of my friends were essentially kicked out of their homes at 18 or after college, and left to fend for themselves is far more worthy of criticism. Things will change within a generation, but it is unfair to expect social mores to be completely overturned in such a brief period of time.

no matter if women living alone or with family is superior or not, having the freedom to choose to live alone and rent an apartment without having your landlord think your a sl*t is clearly a good thing. seem ridiculous to think otherwise. "yeah...isnt it great that we are so moral?! if your a girl you are a h0 for living by yourself!". this isnt a preference. this is just giving the girl less optons, because she is a girl.

and started tolerating all sorts of perversions, the fall that followed was inevitable

perversions is your opinions. and....tolerance is what draws people to america. americas strength is based on tolerance.

places like China and India that still place some value on personal morality and discipline will ascend correspondingly.

curruption is rampant in india and china, aids is spreading like wildwife through india and china. this isnt personal morality and discipline we are talking about in this post. its sexism and mysogeny. and besides, i wouldnt hold any country as "morally superior" to any other.

aids is spreading like wildwife through india and china

I KNEW IT! The wild wives are the problem. Tame them now, Richard Gere!

(Seriously, I agree with most of what you say, Puliogre #43).

As for the serious point about brown women in America, Tamil movies certainly perpetrate the stereotype of the America-returned woman usually wearing skimpy tight clothes and being loose. Whereas it is considered a symbol of status and wealth for a guy.

its hard to wear clothes in chennai. its freakin hot in chennai....

aids is spreading like wildwife through india and china

i meant wildfire...hehehe. (ive got shaadi.com wife searching on the brain)

Sorry, I meant being America returned is a status symbol for a guy, not wearing skimpy tight clothes. Thank goodness! Otherwise, we'd see Vijayakanth and half the Tamilnadu population in them.

Sorry, I meant being America returned is a status symbol for a guy, not wearing skimpy tight clothes. Thank goodness! Otherwise, we'd see Vijayakanth and half the Tamilnadu population in them.

although that kind of outfit is really comfy in that hood...

It's like Greece, Rome, Egypt, heck all the big empires; as soon as they lost their moral ascendency (though it was generally dubious to begin with) and started tolerating all sorts of perversions,

Don't forget, the gays caused 9/11.

G Unit, it's nice that you're worrying about Indian civilisational decline sitting in the heart of America. Now why not let Indians in India figure out for themselves how they want to live - including adult women - instead of debating the relative morality of living with family or on one's own.

Of course attitudes towards sex are more conservative in India than they are in the US, and about twenty years ago a woman who lived alone was looked upon suspiciously. But more and more women have reason to live alone. I have aunts who lived alone in Delhi twenty years ago because they were working there while their parents were in Calcutta, or in the case of one aunt by marriage, because her parents had died and she had no other family. They were considered very exceptional then. Today you have thousands of young women working in all sorts of jobs in Delhi, from other towns, or some who simply want to live closer to work. Should they be automatically assumed to be immoral? Quite honestly, you can put girls in hostels all you like and if they want to mess around, they will (just ask anyone who ever lived in a girls hostel in college in India).

As more and more working women rent places of their own, people will hopefully become more comfortable with this. Yes, it will be a gradual process. And in the meanwhile, honest hardworking responsible adult women will have to work twice as hard to find places, pay more, and deal with much more nosiness and judgement from those around them.

Ok, now I have the visual of a moustachioed Tamil guy in a white veshti and Tantex banian yelling this at me.

Sorry, I meant being America returned is a status symbol for a guy, not wearing skimpy tight clothes. Thank goodness! Otherwise, we'd see Vijayakanth and half the Tamilnadu population in them.

i'm glad we concur on the male wardrobe befitting these roles.

Of all the Western things that are becoming global trends, I personally consider the casual treatment of premarital sex to be the most damaging, (for both men and women) along with rampant materialism and lack of personal responsability
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Thankfully, America is fast sliding down that slope; places like China and India that still place some value on personal morality and discipline will ascend correspondingly

Yo, it's gittin' like caligula up in here.

Seriously though-people really believe in the "moral superiority" of any country?
Hahahahahaha!

My grandmother, (a zexy, old-country latina immigrant) used to say about pretty much anything whether it be college, marriage or a new sport, "Try it, seek if it works for you. If not, you could always try something else. Comer,nina!"
Words to live by, man. Words to live by.

Thankfully, America is fast sliding down that slope; places like China and India that still place some value on personal morality and discipline will ascend correspondingly

didnt m@zi g*rmany have "discipline". werent they superior in culture? s!eg h@il!!!!

i meant n@zi.

I was trying to quote G Unit below the underline in #52 but it got screwed up. Hopefully, y'all know that ai'nt me.

I am all for the "fast sliding" down of morals when it comes to the sex. I'm not good at bein' all romantical and shit so that makes it easier to git some.

You guys make it seem like it is pretty common to be single and having sex in India. Is it really that common? If it is then I can't wait to go there and get in on the fun. My parents have a lot of real estate in India but I haven't heard of them discriminating against singles.

is a guy sleeping around also wrong?

do landlords care if you bring girls up to your room a lot? are you just a playah at that point?

seriously, G Unit - if that was you treading lightly, i don't even want to know the rest....

i come from a 'conservative' family in madras - but 75% of the men in my family have had affairs, some even with proper second wives (there's literally a veedu in the chinna veedu situation), as well as children as a result. and the whole damn city knows about this. but nobody cares. meanwhile, our on-again-off-again chief minister karunanidhi is quite open about his two wives, who, for public consumption i assume, get along very nicely. can you imagine if a woman had done any of these things? this is surely a double-standard, and it can be seen even in smaller ways, like puliogre's (sorry, dude) parents' ban against girls with previous boyfriends, while he has obviously openly dated with his parents' knowledge. and i don't even want to start on all the things puliogre mentioned in #43. so, do i think of india as a particularly moral country? NO. and if that's your idea of moral superiority, you can bloody keep it.

does this mean that i can rent my properties in india out to women only, and charge a lot of rent? that seems like a better deal for the landlord. i should be all over that trade.

like puliogre's (sorry, dude) parents' ban against girls with previous boyfriends, while he has obviously openly dated with his parents' knowledge.

maybe shouldnt have brought that up. my parents are actually really sweet people...

I am all for the "fast sliding" down of morals when it comes to the sex. I'm not good at bein' all romantical and shit so that makes it easier to git some.

a man after my own heart! i hope you are teaching all of this in your sexed class - i could see several quotes from SM being helpful.

ak, you omitted the other on-again-off-again one Jayalalitha, whose ascendancy to power was primarily due to the fact that she was the mistress of the previous illustrious chief minister MGR. To paraphrase Mel Brooks, it is good to be the chief minister!

I was between apartments in New York so I rented a room in a private house from a Punjabi family. Myself being Punjabi it was kind of nice but then it got old really quick. They really wanted a girl to live there instead and they complained that I was always coming home too late (I work late). The apartment was ok for a temp situation, not bad but not the cleanest, but now they have a girl living there and all she does is complain about the cleanliness, things needing to be fixed, etc. Poetic justice I guess.

Someone said earlier about renting from management companies. I swear by that. They actually fix things on time and have set procedures for handling complaints. Much better than a private landlord who thinks the only thing they are supposed to do is collect rent. ANY landlord is going to be nosy as hell.

puliogre - your parents are not so uncommon in that view. hell, my own parents think dating is evil - everytime my mother talks about somebody else's bf or gf, she says it with such heavy moral disdain (and uber-pronounced desi accent)that there is no way i would ever introduce her to any of my own bfs. so they know about none of my own endeavours. my parents are pretty cool otherwise, but dating is a big no-no...

can you imagine if a woman had done any of these things? this is surely a double-standard,

Not that I disagree with your analysis with respect to affairs, etc.. However, two sexes (that, in my view, exhibit stark physiological and psycho-somatic differences in the way they perceive the world) would naturally lend it self to two standards.

ANY landlord is going to be nosy as hell.

hmm...i just view my tenants as a rental yield. i dont care about their "morality" unless it stains the carpet and therefore reduces my yield.

puliogre - your parents are not so uncommon in that view. hell, my own parents think dating is evil - everytime my mother talks about somebody else's bf or gf, she says it with such heavy moral disdain (and uber-pronounced desi accent)that there is no way i would ever introduce her to any of my own bfs. so they know about none of my own endeavours. my parents are pretty cool otherwise, but dating is a big no-no...

dating wasnt taboo for me. i mean...my dad dated in india in the 1960's. my parents liked my grlfriends.

i hope you are teaching all of this in your sexed class - i could see several quotes from SM being helpful.

I teach it all, baby. I tell them-when you decide to make that choice-WHENEVER it is, here's what you need to know. I encourage them to wait but many are already active so those who are-there's stuff they gotta know man.

a man after my own heart

BTW ...coach diesel=female. Your mind been blown?

However, two sexes (that, in my view, exhibit stark physiological and psycho-somatic differences in the way they perceive the world) would naturally lend it self to two standards.

fair enough. but it's discrimination whene the differenetial in treatment has nothing to do with either of those two aspects you mentioned. having sex, per se, is not related to either.

a man after my own heart!

BTW ...coach diesel=female. Your mind been blown?

Sheesh, get a room already, you two! As cousins, of course.

Sheesh, get a room already, you two! As cousins, of course.

so....thast what they mean by "kissin cousins"

places like China and India that still place some value on personal morality and discipline will ascend correspondingly.

I think this has been said in different words above but let me express my opinions in slightly different terms:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you are killing me. Actually India is probably one of the more promiscuous (and hypocritical about it too) societies in the world. Lest you think that is a sweeping generalization, look up some of the government statistics on the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. Anecdotally (well, not quite), one of my friends did his two years of mandatory village service (mandatory in Maharashtra) after graduating from med school in a couple of places in Vidharba. By his reckoning (and he kept records) about 3 out of every four patients had multiple sexual partners. The difference in India is that no one talks about this and almost everyone is a f..ing hypocrite. Another problem is that such sexual conduct is tied up with a lot of social hierarchies (gender and caste, to be precise). Friend if you dig beneath the surface in India (or perhaps many other societies)and go beyond the frankly bullshit rhetoric you will find many dirty little secrets such as these.

coach diesel=female. Your mind been blown?

sorry! you mentioned something in the previous post that inferred you had overlooked some aspects of the female anatomy/sexual process. i also have not been on this blog long enough to ascertain you clearly as a female. but it was NOT because i think coaches can only be men.

i just view my tenants as a rental yield. i dont care about their "morality" unless it stains the carpet and therefore reduces my yield

I view my tenants as my own private peep show.

I view my tenants as my own private peep show.

theres an idea i havent thought of. i should hook up a webcam...

People, I think what all of you are missing, is that if you don't acknowledge or talk about sex, like in India, it's effectively not happening. It is a similar philosophy to the abstinence education out here. And look how well that's working. It's not as if it is a natural human instinct or anything, with no deleterious consequences (with appropriate protection etc.).

dating wasnt taboo for me. i mean...my dad dated in india in the 1960's. my parents liked my grlfriends.

you mention only you and your dad - so if dating wasn't taboo for you or your father, how come it is for the prospective wife?

sorry! you mentioned something in the previous post that inferred you had overlooked some aspects of the female anatomy/sexual process. i also have not been on this blog long enough to ascertain you clearly as a female. but it was NOT because i think coaches can only be men

Is good, baby. I didn't take it that way to be pissy, just makin' a funny. I may purposely create a little ambiguity sometimes...

In my experience if someone is getting their chaddis in a twist about others getting some action, its because they are not getting enough or they did not have the same freedom when they were young and are jealous.

I know this is anecdotal, but I have noticed that its usually women who are the self appointed watchdogs of sexual morals. Is it just my experience? If its true, I wonder why.

you mention only you and your dad - so if dating wasn't taboo for you or your father, how come it is for the prospective wife?

not sure its taboo. its just that my mom (oddly enough, not really my dad)makes it a point to ask if a perspective grl has had a boyfriend before. if the answer is yes, she then makes a funny face.

I may purposely create a little ambiguity sometimes...

Is that what the Kinks meant when they said "she walks like a woman and talks like a man"?

#81
They don't call 'em The Kinks for nothin', baby.

Rahul, was that you who emailed me the other day or another imposter?

Beige Seige, it's a good guess (and yes, I've often thought the judgemental aunties just needed to get a vibrator already) but most of the landlords who refused to rent to me as a woman were male.

AK - basic logic, beta - men are allowed to date, women are suspect if they do. The women that these men dated in college (my father, uncles, etc etc) will then, after being dated, be considered unworthy marriage material and rather "fast" - there are women for fun, and women you marry. It's changed a bit now, thank god, but the double standard hasn't gone away altogether.

Rahul, was that you who emailed me the other day or another imposter?

Whoa! No, I never emailed you!

I know this is anecdotal, but I have noticed that its usually women who are the self appointed watchdogs of sexual morals. Is it just my experience? If its true, I wonder why.

i would think that women would want their daughters to be better off than them? would expect guys to get more bent out of shape.

You guys make it seem like it is pretty common to be single and having sex in India. Is it really that common?

On my block, yes. Also double and having seks w/ someone other than your insignificant other? Yes, yes, yes.

Re: morals. From Gangs of NY, “The appearance of law must be upheld”.

On my block, yes. Also double and having seks w/ someone other than your insignificant other? Yes, yes, yes.

not sure its taboo. its just that my mom (oddly enough, not really my dad)makes it a point to ask if a perspective grl has had a boyfriend before. if the answer is yes, she then makes a funny face.

but there is clearly a different standard there, even if slight? she's OK with your gfs, but not OK with the ladies' bf? surely, if you dated before and had gfs and your mom was OK with that - why not the same treatment for the girl? the very fact that this is enough of an issue for her to ask that question of the prospective wives means she is not OK with it.

Rahul-there is an imposter trying to git wit me using your name. I saw right through it though. They didn't have your 'lil somethin' somethin'.

but there is clearly a different standard there, even if slight? she's OK with your gfs, but not OK with the ladies' bf? surely, if you dated before and had gfs and your mom was OK with that - why not the same treatment for the girl? the very fact that this is enough of an issue for her to ask that question of the prospective wives means she is not OK with it.

heres the real twist..shes ok with my female relatives boyfriends. i gave up trying to understand....

I know this is anecdotal, but I have noticed that its usually women who are the self appointed watchdogs of sexual morals. Is it just my experience? If its true, I wonder why.

I've noticed the same sort of thing, and I'm not sure it's limited just to Indian society either. I mean, you never hear "been around the block" in connection with a guy's past, do you? And American fathers presumably don't lecture their sons on how nobody will buy the cow if they can get the milk for free...

Coach, although, if you send me (or SM admins) the email (actually just the headers, but we need the headers), we should be able to extract IP address information, which when correlated with SM's comment logs, could potentially help identify the perpetrator.

If you care enough to do that, mail me at rahulsmutiny. The mail address is on yahoo.com.

puliogre - do you have a sister?

SP - sigh. this is something i've figured out way before - and i try to fight the fight. but really, given my family's views (and those of desi society at large) - i know what is mentionable and what is not in the family social circle. but even in the larger society, it's only changed somewhat - for instance, a lot of men will not have a relationship with a woman who 'gives it up' too quickly. or who has sex with a lot of people (even if it's less than the number of women with whom they have slept). i don't know why, but many guys are just not cool with having a woman who is as sexually active as them, much less more so.

Uh oh. I have friends in high places! I may just do that...

puliogre - do you have a sister?

a female cousin. very much like my sister. the relationship between her and me, my parents is very close.

I've noticed the same sort of thing, and I'm not sure it's limited just to Indian society either. I mean, you never hear "been around the block" in connection with a guy's past, do you? And American fathers presumably don't lecture their sons on how nobody will buy the cow if they can get the milk for free...

ive had girls parents do due dililgence on my past. parents in india get really suspicious cause im an american, and everyone knows americans sleep around.

I've found that putting this as my name on the horoscope (of course, horoscopes need to match!) eliminates the sleeping-around question. Feel free to try it out.

i don't know why, but many guys are just not cool with having a woman who is as sexually active as them, much less more so

They are not cool with it because it is intimidating for them. It causes self-doubt, worry and comparisons, provoking anxiety which is, as we all know, very romantical and zexy.

I've found that putting this as my name on the horoscope (of course, horoscopes need to match!) eliminates the sleeping-around question. Feel free to try it out.

the horoscope matching makes me angry some times. one parents wanted a horoscope match. I asked why. they said "your american, we need to be extra careful". I thought "so, because of my nationality you cant be sure of my morality, so the position of neptune at the time of my birth will asuage your fears?!"

puliogre - the fear with prospective grooms is not sleeping around - it is that you already have a wife, or that you have 'tricked' other women into marriage/prospect of marriage in bringing them over to the states.

why havent landlords in india caught on to the fact that women need to over pay rent. why wouldnt they just rent to women only, and make a lot of money. seems like an arbitrage.

so the position of neptune at the time of my birth will asuage your fears?!"

I tell them that as a materialist, the only relevant things are that Mercury is in the house, and Saturn is in the garage.

puliogre - the fear with prospective grooms is not sleeping around - it is that you already have a wife, or that you have 'tricked' other women into marriage/prospect of marriage in bringing them over to the states.

what would i get out of spending a boat load of money to bring some chick to the US if i already have a wife? guys looking for harems?

what would i get out of spending a boat load of money to bring some chick to the US if i already have a wife? guys looking for harems?

i guess you could be married, go to india. sit through the ceremony. b*ng the grl, leave the country, return to family life.

Puliogre - landlords DO charge women more, basically the "foreigner rate" - which very few Indian women can pay, particularly the young, call-centre working kind.

And the reason that desi men sometimes marry the nice girl their parents picked out for them from home even though they're already shacked up (with a Vhite Vitch, no doubt, hidden from their families because she'd Never Be Accepted) is so that they can make their parents happy. Uphold civilisation and morality and all that.

spending a boat load of money to bring some chick to the US

Uh oh. You said boat. You meant DBD.

They are not cool with it because it is intimidating for them. It causes self-doubt, worry and comparisons, provoking anxiety which is, as we all know, very romantical and zexy.

oh yeah, baby. because god forbid their partner is as good as - or better than - them in bed. so i guess it's not just their size that weighs anxious on their minds.

i guess you could be married, go to india. sit through the ceremony. b*ng the grl, leave the country, return to family life.

theres got to be cheaper ways to get action than that...

Puliogre - landlords DO charge women more, basically the "foreigner rate" - which very few Indian women can pay, particularly the young, call-centre working kind.

so..in that case, wouldnt you want to only rent out to rich single indian women or foreigners? i mean..why wouldnt yu want to receive market rents when you can ream women/foreigners.

parents in india get really suspicious cause im an american, and everyone knows americans sleep around.

I don't really think that's because they think you're sleeping around. They want to make sure you don't have an American girlfriend/wife or boyfriend/wife who is going to break up their daughter's marriage...they want to make sure you're not some sort of deviant who is going to harm their daughter...they want to make sure you're not an ax murderer.

If you lived in India, they could easily ask around and find out all these things about you, but the information network is much more sparse in the US. Ergo the due diligence.

And the reason that desi men sometimes marry the nice girl their parents picked out for them from home even though they're already shacked up (with a Vhite Vitch, no doubt, hidden from their families because she'd Never Be Accepted) is so that they can make their parents happy. Uphold civilisation and morality and all that.

thats f-cked up. i think im too simple a guy. i dont think i could dream up a scheme like that even if given time to dream it up.

Matunga, reprezent!

They want to make sure you don't have an American girlfriend/wife or boyfriend/wife who is going to break up their daughter's marriage

is this kind of info more easily available if the guy is indian?

If you lived in India, they could easily ask around and find out all these things about you, but the information network is much more sparse in the US. Ergo the due diligence.

i mean...it cant be hard to hite a girlfriend on the sly if your chillin in mumbai and your community is in bangalore....

the desi version

is this kind of info more easily available if the guy is indian?

Yes, or at least I think so. Let's say you're a guy living in Matunga (heh!). Even if you live by yourself, you have three nosy neighbors, five cousins, and at least two distant relatives living in the area who will be more than happy to rat you out...er, discuss how wonderful you are with the parents of a prospective bride.

I once helped my aunt and uncle sort through horoscopes from India for my cousin. Some horoscopes were accompanied by detailed family background descriptions, including addresses and phone numbers, in case my aunt and uncle wanted to check out the family.

HMF on June 19, 2007 09:49 AM

G Unit on June 19, 2007 09:34 AM :It's like Greece, Rome, Egypt, heck all the big empires; as soon as they lost their moral ascendency (though it was generally dubious to begin with) and started tolerating all sorts of perversions,

Don't forget, the gays caused 9/11.

(nice comeback) ;-)

Oh Lord, not another "Everything in India is so anti-women ....thread"
Please !

Agreed that some folks may act like complete twerps when it comes to renting .But let me offer my own personal experience:
- Lived alone from the age of 17 - rented/Paying guest/hostel etc
- Have single women firends who successfully rented in N Delhi - oh, yes!
- Have family that own property and rent out to - gasp!- single men , single women
- Have myself rented out to - single women, unmarried cohabitating couples - oh ,yes!

So please, while I am sure everyone has had varied experiences , no blanket statements and I would take the CSM article with a very large pich of salt.

Further rants about the "dating" and "employment of single women" will follow later

Further rants about the "dating" and "employment of single women" will follow later

please...continue...

Runa - rented their own places, or a PG accommodation? The latter is very common, or sometimes they'll have a group house and rent out rooms to individual girls. Renting your own place is the problem. Not impossible at all (as the article indicates, the woman did find a place), but tons of resistance.

I definitely agree that renting as a single woman in Delhi is hard (unless you have another single woman roommate, in which case I've found it's easier), but with the growing number of young post-college professionals, I've noticed this opening up in the 'burbs (e.g. Gurgaon). I think neighborhoods with more foreigners can also be a little easier to rent in (for the second story of a house or whatnot), but a little more expensive. I don't know how that compares to renting a flat or apt, though.

Oh, to backtrack, I always got the impression that ABDs are considered sluttier, but for some reason there's some kind of desire to "save them from themselves" since they, too, are brown. I haven't really seen this with other (gori) women.

what would i get out of spending a boat load of money to bring some chick to the US if i already have a wife? guys looking for harems?

So please, while I am sure everyone has had varied experiences , no blanket statements and I would take the CSM article with a very large pich of salt.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do know single Indian women who managed to find places to rent, either as tenants or paying guests...at least in Madras anyway. I do wonder if the fact that they were single professionals living in a city other than their hometown helped matters a little. That is, if these women didn't have relatives or parents in town they could go and live with, I imagine at least some landlords would be loathe to these women out on the street when they're far from home, so to speak.

I agree with what Runa is saying, I have female relatives from out of town rent in Delhi/Bombay (Independent Places) not PG accomodations. If you are familiar with Delhi a lot of places in Malka Ganj are rented by Single Women who go to college in North Campus Colleges. One way out for single women to rent without hassle is to get a company lease. I believe most landlords in Delhi fear not being able to get their apartments vacated after the lease expires and that is why they have started insisting on company lease.
It is changing as living alone is become more and more prevelant. You also have to understand that prime rentable apartments have been in short supply hence unreasonable demands by the landlords.

Pulliogre,

Not really an arbitrage opportunity as the market for women and men renters is still the same.

Oh, to backtrack, I always got the impression that ABDs are considered sluttier, but for some reason there's some kind of desire to "save them from themselves" since they, too, are brown. I haven't really seen this with other (gori) women.

sounds like life is easiest for white women....hmm..

SP-
I assume you are asking about Delhi.
Rented - as in an apartment with separate entrance and everything.And this was 1992-1993 mind you .

I already said that I agree that there may be cases where it is difficult but my"rant" was about the general tone of the article and the comments here which veered towards the condescending about India and Indian attitudes.

Not really an arbitrage opportunity as the market for women and men renters is still the same.

doesnt sound the same to me, by the descriptions on this thread.

SP-
I assume you are asking about Delhi.
Rented - as in an apartment with separate entrance and everything.And this was 1992-1993 mind you .

I already said that I agree that there may be cases where it is difficult but my"rant" was about the general tone of the article and the comments here which veered towards the condescending about India and Indian attitudes.

SM Intern:

Please delete because I somwhow managed to post teh same comment twice :-( Sorry!

No arbitrage as the cost of holding the apartment to be rented only to the females is far large as the pools of prospective female tenants is still small.

No arbitrage as the cost of holding the apartment to be rented only to the females is far large as the pools of prospective female tenants is still small.

fair enough. its like a liquidity premium then...off the run market or something.

Abolutely.

Yes, or at least I think so. Let's say you're a guy living in Matunga (heh!). Even if you live by yourself, you have three nosy neighbors, five cousins, and at least two distant relatives living in the area who will be more than happy to rat you out...er, discuss how wonderful you are with the parents of a prospective bride.

So true, even for girls. I had an offer to go back to India and work for $$$K salary and I refused for the exact same reason. I live alone in the USA and things aren't easy here, either. Every FOB cousin/aunty/uncle wants to know why I have no room mates. My family comes to know everything about me before I tell them (like how many guys were on that camping trip that I went on this spring, etc.), all through the extensive desi network here. I used to try and explain myself earlier but I just gave up. What has a single girl got to do, bah!

Nice post, and an issue definitely worth addressing.

Having experienced Bangalore, I can safely say that the landlords are the kings of the cities. There are interested parties coming to visit the advertised place every half hour every damn day. It is at such times that the landlord becomes a 'Club Bouncer', standing with folded arms, judging you at the entrance and deciding if you need to get in or get the !# out . All his racial/casteist/religious/sexist prejudices come out in the open and it is pretty darn ugly.

It is true that single women, especially vocal single women - are one of the most hated bunches of people in India. The older generation Men tend to hate them because they don't 'obey', and the older gen women hate them because 'that is not the way women should act'. I'm sure that these women will find it terribly hard to find places - both because their morality is questioned, and because they are simply not liked.

Even these 'girls hostels' are so screwed up. The warden is most of the times a 'strict mother' with out-of-this-world rules ... get home by 9.. absolutely no male friends, so on and so forth.... all this when the women are working professionals in some of the most reputed companies in the country !

@Runa - "So please, while I am sure everyone has had varied experiences , no blanket statements and I would take the CSM article with a very large pich of salt."

I respectfully disagree. Most of the statements above seem very reflective of the reality of renting to women in India. I would say that 3 out of 4 places you visit will be very very wary of renting to single women...

What has a single girl got to do, bah!

damn, gulti girl - you need to play the game a little better. i suggest lying and other evasion tactics, which have always worked for me. i've almost always lived within 200 miles of my parents, and they rarely have any clue what's going on. granted, my parents are not nosy and generally respect my freedom, but the only way for rumours not to spread is to keep everybody in the dark.

So true, even for girls. I had an offer to go back to India and work for $$$K salary and I refused for the exact same reason. I live alone in the USA and things aren't easy here, either. Every FOB cousin/aunty/uncle wants to know why I have no room mates. My family comes to know everything about me before I tell them (like how many guys were on that camping trip that I went on this spring, etc.), all through the extensive desi network here. I used to try and explain myself earlier but I just gave up. What has a single girl got to do, bah!

what happens if your really agressive, and every time some aunti type bugs you, you go ape $hit. would they then just leave u alone? (no sure what the blowback would be for a grl)

sounds like life is easiest for white women....hmm..

damn, gulti girl - you need to play the game a little better. i suggest lying and other evasion tactics, which have always worked for me. i've almost always lived within 200 miles of my parents, and they rarely have any clue what's going on. granted, my parents are not nosy and generally respect my freedom, but the only way for rumours not to spread is to keep everybody in the dark.

thats just disturbing....but, i guess one does what they must.

Not necessarily. Being considered "sluttier" also means you get groped, hit on, and otherwise harassed in different, and sometimes more insistent, ways than ABDs.

ah. they r s*x objects too. i get it.

Randomizer # 134,
I think we are at impasse. I have already spoken of my personal experiences in being the renter /rentee with no such issues as everyone here seems to think is the norm.
I would not go so far as to say that single women are hated. But its true that single women in that society bring out everyone's inherent securities.That's also because independent women are not appreciated anywhere.As a married, working women I heard a lot of comments ( from women too) about how I could not possible be a good wife and mother because I was busy with my career.

About the hostels: I can agree with you 100% having experienced the"Psycho warden" and be in by 9:00 am or else stuff.
Anyway,I thought I need to put my 2 cents in based on my experience living and working in India.Whether it gives more comfort to beleive that all Indians in India are stuck to moribund traditions and are all misogynist, racist/casteist etc I cannot say.

what happens if your really agressive, and every time some aunti type bugs you, you go ape $hit. would they then just leave u alone? (no sure what the blowback would be for a grl)

Runa, I see your point about generalising (and it's easy to focus on the negative when that's the topic of the discussion). The article does, to be fair, point out the fact that it *is* possible to rent, and particularly when you get to upmarket areas in South Delhi, when landlords will pretty much look the other way for enough $. It's still amazing when you see so many women with good jobs, the ones who were top of their class and what have you, and all they can get is a PG accommodation. Barsatis and rooms above people's garages are still quite acceptable for single women (particularly if the entrance is where the landlords can see you come and go), it's when I wanted something larger than a barsati/room that I faced a lot of resistance. This was in Delhi, a couple of years ago, and it happened even when I took my parents along (which definitely helped, I shudder to think what would have happened if I didn't have my very respectable mother in tow). It just took about five times as long as it should have, and I lost so much work time. And hearing "sorry madam but the landlord won't rent to single girls" about fifty times didn't help.

Runa: While some characterizations here might veer to the extreme, I think it is fair to say that India is more moralistic than the US (which in turn is more moralistic than Europe). I too have had aunts who lived in Delhi as single women (even in the 80s), as well as cousins and friends who've done the same in the past couple of years, but I also know how carefully they used to tread because, as Shodan quoted, "the appearance of order must be maintained". This sort of behavior, just because they are women, is patronizing and insulting to mature, responsible adults.

I will, however, say that things are changing. Things in India today are far better than what they were in the 80s. But, hey, even in the US, the slut vs. playa hypocrisy (as was briefly alluded to by some of the comments by ak and coach) is latent in a variety of interactions.

As a married, working women I heard a lot of comments ( from women too) about how I could not possible be a good wife and mother because I was busy with my career.

hmm..i would feel the opposite. would feel kind of wierd not having my wife not having a career. would have a hard time feeling like an equal partner. i think career grls make better wife, better role models for kids. jusy my taste though.

I've never had to deal with renting in India but not surprising --- landlords taking a parental judgemental role seems to fit with everything else.

Have you ever had to deal with a local tailor? I don't know how it is in the big cities, but I try and get western-style clothes made or even sari tops by the local tailor in India using some of the beautiful but cheap garments I can get in India. The tailor takes my measurements and I want the dresses to hug my figure. 8 out of 10 times I get the clothes much looser fitting than what I asked for - the tailor it seems will decide what is appropriate for me to wear - forget about what I want.

Oh Puliogre I think Runa's right on that one - particularly the point about independent women bringing out everyone's insecurities. I've even heard aunties who've had careers of their own (after the kids had gone to school, and they still did all the work at home) judge younger women, like their own daughters-in-law, for going back to work too soon, and suggest that they were neglecting the kids. You'd think these would be the women who'd have some empathy....

I will, however, say that things are changing. Things in India today are far better than what they were in the 80s. But, hey, even in the US, the slut vs. playa hypocrisy (as was briefly alluded to by some of the comments by ak and coach) is latent in a variety of interactions.

im a big fan of calling guys "sl*ts" when they sleep around, and saying that grl is looking for a "pretty " guy when they want a tall muscular guy with a good face. its all the same thing. preffer not to make it look any different.

Have you ever had to deal with a local tailor? I don't know how it is in the big cities, but I try and get western-style clothes made or even sari tops by the local tailor in India using some of the beautiful but cheap garments I can get in India. The tailor takes my measurements and I want the dresses to hug my figure. 8 out of 10 times I get the clothes much looser fitting than what I asked for - the tailor it seems will decide what is appropriate for me to wear - forget about what I want.

thats amazing. thats hilarious.

As a married, working women I heard a lot of comments ( from women too) about how I could not possible be a good wife and mother because I was busy with my career.

Well, as an expectant mom, I can't wait to hear if my mother or mother-in-law will express this sentiment eventually...if only subtly or backhandedly.

Oh Puliogre I think Runa's right on that one - particularly the point about independent women bringing out everyone's insecurities. I've even heard aunties who've had careers of their own (after the kids had gone to school, and they still did all the work at home) judge younger women, like their own daughters-in-law, for going back to work too soon, and suggest that they were neglecting the kids. You'd think these would be the women who'd have some empathy....

so...that should allow me to pick up a disproportionaly attractive grl who is independant and career minded. brown - i know. maybe it isnt an arb due to liquidity. but, sounds like a good idea to me...

about how I could not possible be a good wife and mother because I was busy with my career.

Busy with your career? Busy commenting on SM, you mean! :)

8 out of 10 times I get the clothes much looser fitting than what I asked for - the tailor it seems will decide what is appropriate for me to wear - forget about what I want.

my tailor is in madras - complete dictator about these things. the last time i had to do away with the whole polite act and insist that if i was paying the money and wearing the clothes, they had to be to my taste. madam did not take it too well. i'm currently on the lookout for a new tailor. it was not so bad while it lasted.

Outlook article on friends as family Interesting vignettes of young professionals living on their own.

ak, if you wouldn't listen to your tailor, at least listen to what Vandicholai Chinraasu said!

Hehe, so true about tailors! Especially when you're a teenager getting your first sari or lehnga blouse, man, they look at you like a slut for saying "lower" or "tighter." But thankfully we had good ones in Bombay, who were perfectly OK with low/tight, and they always took very, um, exact measurements with completely impassive faces. I had one very aunty-ish blouse tailor who made the most teeny-weeny blouses, it was great.

yes, you have me there. my fashion choices are not down with the family back home, particularly my rejection of the saree (they take it personally - it's the family business). i used to get such shit from my grandmother for not wearing pavaadai-thavani. on my last trip, i even dispensed with the salwar kameez, only to have to hear, 'you look like a boy in those clothes.' good times.

Oh Rahul,

That was back in the des in the Good old days when I was not addicted to SM :-)

Hema : Congrats.A little tip: Working mother's guilt is universal !However,I don't know if it was particularly desi but I had to listen to a lot of subtle and not-so subtle criticism from others. Luckily for me both mom and mom-in-law themselves were working women so I was spared that from them. But not from friends' wives, colleagues wives, neighbors etc ( not all, some of 'em).Others were supportive and a few actually envious that I was "putting my education to use" their words not mine . note: This was many years ago, times have changed now.

Personally, I think the greatest thing would be to be a homemaker and I think the contribution of non-outside- working moms is vastly undervalued all over the world.

In India, every single place I worked I was asked during interviews how I would manage work and being a mom .My husband of course was never asked this.

It used to make me mad but now I think the best revenge is a good life !

ak:

damn, gulti girl - you need to play the game a little better.

I always lie to my parents. I tell them I go on trips with only girl friends, etc. I never mention what I do for fun (they'd freak out if I tell them I am training for a 60-mile walk with a bunch of guys). Somehow my parents find out about stuff I never mention. I used to live in a small university town in Ohio where I knew *NO* one and still my life was known to everyone in the extended family. What bugs me most is that my cousins and aunts just start lecturing about how it is harmful for an Indian girl to be talked about "like that" (when they are the ones who talk).

Puliogre in da USA:

what happens if your really agressive, and every time some aunti type bugs you, you go ape $hit. would they then just leave u alone? (no sure what the blowback would be for a grl)

No, never works. I've done that and all that comes out of it ultimately is that my Aunts go back to India and tell my parents how "America has corrupted" their daughter. I keep my mouth shut for my parents' sake.

Well, it's not particularly desi, although again, it's probably more common among desis. But Caitlin Flanagan and Phyllis Schlafly have certainly made careers stateside telling other women that they should sit at home.

I am training for a 60-mile walk with a bunch of guys

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

In India, every single place I worked I was asked during interviews how I would manage work and being a mom .My husband of course was never asked this.

And.. why should he be? When your husband and you were married, did his parents insist (either explicitly, or implicitly) that you about have a financial secure job to take care of him, and any children ? If anything, I see question coming out of deep respect and value of motherhood. It's a tougher job.

Rahul:

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

I guess.

Awww, you played the pink card! :)

only to have to hear, 'you look like a boy

ak, if it's not too presumptuous, may I suggest threading?

HMF # 161

I did not understand what you are asking.

I do find it offensive that I was asked every single time about how I could manage parenthood and work.Why should my partner not be asked the same? Isn't he a parent too?But this never came up in any job interview for him

i think the things people ask guys are a bit different. like, why arent u in med school? how much mmoney do you make? the aunty set doesnt really care about these things for a grl. questions are usually why arent you married?

Ok ladies, can you stop yakking it up here and bring lunch out? I mean, jeez!

gulti girl, that is, indeed, very mysterious.

ak, if it's not too presumptuous, may I suggest threading?

rahul, i am vehemently anti-unibrow. but thanks for the presumption, man.

Puliogre,

I agree, let me know when you want to pool resources to capitalize :)

Ok ladies, can you stop yakking it up here and bring lunch out? I mean, jeez!

ahh..not to be confused with "wheres my d!nner, b!tch!"

Puliogre,

I agree, let me know when you want to pool resources to capitalize :)

hmm...that would imply us introducing each other to the disproportionatly attractive career women in each others communities? thats how i would interpret that...

Some U.S. cities used to have laws about unmarried women living together in rentals. These so called "brothel laws" were based on the idea that, basically, single women might be up to no good/"entertaining" males. In this case it seemed that it was more suspicious for a group of single girls to live together than just one or two single girls. There were also bars and clubs that did not allow "unescorted" women due to fear, again, of prositution. A woman alone?! She must be a hooker, etc.

Some U.S. cities used to have laws about unmarried women living together in rentals. These so called "brothel laws" were based on the idea that, basically, single women might be up to no good/"entertaining" males. In this case it seemed that it was more suspicious for a group of single girls to live together than just one or two single girls. There were also bars and clubs that did not allow "unescorted" women due to fear, again, of prositution. A woman alone?! She must be a hooker, etc.

untill recently there was a law on the book in boston saying that a "native" couldnt go into the commons unless accompanied by 2 mmuketeers. the law was never taken off the books till recently. i would imagine that a law like that one would have been repealed long ago with womens lib.

Essentially what I was trying to say was that India is gradually becoming more accepting of women (and men) living alone, but it is a gradual change and will take time for attitudes to adjust. My larger point was the same as Runa's, there is no empirical "this way is better because we can do whatever we want."

Personally, I don't call anyone a slut. I don't care how much sex people choose to have. But I consider sex a sacred thing, and so do a great many people. Americans think they are so free and liberated, but Europeans view us as pretty much as conservative and close minded as we view India. This whole thread smacks of typical NRI "Man those Indian people back there are so backwards. I'm glad I left and became enlightened." Look, if you want to f*ck 900 people and never get married, go crazy. But you shouldn't assume that everyone will respect that choice.

Coach Diesel- I'm sure you are a cool person and great teacher, but I must respectfully disagree with almost all of your posts. I understand that in latin culture, sexuality is much more open and explicit. I understand that your views make work for you and help you to lead a happy, well balanced life. But that doesn't mean that they are the only way to go. Just because someone chooses not to sleep with every person they encounter or find attractive, does not automatically mean they are repressed or insecure. Maybe sex is something special to them, which they think is most appropriate with a long term committment.

Before anyone casts any aspersions, no I am not a virgin, but yes I am a romantic and I do regret some of the indiscretions of my youth.

Also, why is everyone up in arms about "the double standard women face" (Which is undoubtedly true, and true everywhere, not just India) but your responses are limited to the typical accusations that Indian men are all insecure, have small dicks and can't please women. It shows how low the moral bar is set when someone who is saving themselves from marriage is actually viewed as afraid just because they choose not to fornicate. When I was at the age that most of my friends were losing their virginity (in the "conservative" Midwest), I assure you that a lot of them (especially girls, but it applies both ways) did so as much because of peer pressure and the desire to fit in and be "normal" as for genuine emotional attachment, or even physical pleasure.

The last line was a bit of a throwaway; I realize Indians are just as greedy, jealous, slothful, lustful and all the rest as anyone else. My point was, these things aren't tolerated or celebrated, the way they are here in the States. I know all about infidelity and such, but I actually think Rahul has a point "The appearance of law" is often just as important as the law itself. After all, people are pretty much the same everywhere, but there are huge global disparities in lifestyles. They must come from somewhere. Assuming that a certain percentage of every population will lie, cheat on their spouses and steal, I would still maintain that people in India (especially the middle class) are in general much more moral than the U.S. (which is far more so than Europe, as someone pointed out). I would attribute this not to any sort of inherent moral superiority, but the much more fervent religiosity that is an even larger presence there than here.

Look, if you want to f*ck 900 people and never get married, go crazy. But you shouldn't assume that everyone will respect that choice.

the post isnt about f*cking 900 people and not getting married. its about living alone. the fact that living alone equates to f*cking for you says something about you. no one is calling india backwards. People arent even calling you backwards. people are calling your comments backwards.

Also, while I was at college all the sororities were dry because any house containing multiple women couldn't serve alcohol because it then automatically became considered a brothel. That's right, girls who live together and drink are whores. So much for enlightened American attitudes.

would still maintain that people in India (especially the middle class) are in general much more moral than the U.S. (which is far more so than Europe, as someone pointed out). I would attribute this not to any sort of inherent moral superiority, but the much more fervent religiosity that is an even larger presence there than here.

yikes. i dont even know what that means. what you mean by "more moral" which behaviors do you find moral, which are immoral. sounds more like "poeple in india claim to follow a code of behavior more similar to mine than people in the US".

Look, if you want to f*ck 900 people and never get married, go crazy. But you shouldn't assume that everyone will respect that choice.

The point is not "everyone respecting choices" as you claim, but people materially discriminating against you for those choices (when they themselves might indulge in worse in secret). If everyone had your attitude, viz.

Personally, I don't call anyone a slut. I don't care how much sex people choose to have.

we would not be having this discussion

I understand that in latin culture, sexuality is much more open and explicit. I understand that your views make work for you and help you to lead a happy, well balanced life. But that doesn't mean that they are the only way to go.

I wouldn't necessarily say "in latin culture, sexuality is much more open and explicit." More so with 2nd, 3rd genner latin@s maybe, but we have that whole catholic vibe going, so love is pain, man. Also, latin culture is comprised of some 25 or more different countries, so you can't really nail it down like that and call it done.

My cousin in India claims that if he is caught socializing with a girl from his college that he will be suspended for one month. Is this true? That sounds kind of ridiculous for 2007 and I'm not sure if he is lying because he does not want me to meet his girlfriends or if he is telling the truth?

My cousin in India claims that if he is caught socializing with a girl from his college that he will be suspended for one month. Is this true? That sounds kind of ridiculous for 2007 and I'm not sure if he is lying because he does not want me to meet his girlfriends or if he is telling the truth?

pin him down on that. hes trying to keep u away from the ladies!

ak-

I'm sorry but I fail to see how your situation (lying constantly to your parents, giving them no inclination of what your life is actually like ) should somehow make us sympathize. If anything, you are an excellent example of what your parents are worried about, that in America their kids will have some secret double life that they won't know about.

I say that as someone with conservative south indian parents who committed almost every major transgression as a youth, sex, drugs, rock n roll, dropping out of college, the works. The one thing I never had to do was lie to my parents, at least not more than the average American kid. Desi parents, like all parents, want to pretend their kids are perfect. But when confronted with reality, most of them (mine included) if they are intelligent and sensitive, will find a way to accept their child regardless.

Also, there is some truth to what was said earlier; if you didn't have anything you thought you had to hide, you wouldn't hide anything. Obviously somewhere deep down, you either feel that some of your actions are unacceptable, or that your parents would view them as such. I would suggest that the problem is one of communication.

Rahul:

Awww, you played the pink card! :)

Personally, I'd have preffered a blue or a green card, (Why does breast cancer have to be represented by pink?) but the lone guy on my team or the other men I train with have no problem with it. My team is called Warrior Women though there is a guy on there.

Ok ladies, can you stop yakking it up here and bring lunch out? I mean, jeez!

I am having me some home made hot drumstick sambar and rice at my dining table at home :). Ah the advantages of living close to work!

And what #175 said

I am having me some home made hot drumstick sambar and rice at my dining table at home :). Ah the advantages of living close to work!

now ur making me homesick.

G Unit, what do you consider morality? personally, i wouldn't even look to religion for morality, because 1. they all preach/practise some rather unsavoury things; and 2. each religion follows its own set of values, so who is to say which religion is, and therefore what practises are, more moral? my issue is that sometimes there is no yardstick by which to measure morality - once you start judging people and their morality by your own set of values, they may start judging you and by their set of values, you might not come out looking so great. but that doesn;t necessarily mean one person is, in fact, more moral than the other. my basic motto is that people should be able to do whatever they want, without judgment (moral or otherwise) as long as it's not hurting somebody else. i only have issues with people/incidents that fall beyond this. otherwise, to each his/her own.

I would still maintain that people in India (especially the middle class) are in general much more moral than the U.S. (which is far more so than Europe, as someone pointed out).

G-unit, I said moralistic, not moral. And I think that leads to a focus on "the appearance of order".

I will partially agree that the "fervent religiosity" is one contributing factor.

It shows how low the moral bar is set when someone who is saving themselves from marriage is actually viewed as afraid just because they choose not to fornicate.

This discussion is not about personal choices that people make, but the moral judgments inflicted upon you by other people in society.

I understand that your views make work for you and help you to lead a happy, well balanced life. But that doesn't mean that they are the only way to go. Just because someone chooses not to sleep with every person they encounter or find attractive, does not automatically mean they are repressed or insecure.

That must be why all of us mutineers are always smiling. We're all sleeping with each other.

I told ya'll it wasn't the drugs...

I am having me some home made hot drumstick sambar and rice at my dining table at home

That is a low blow, gulti gurl. NOT cool. Not when I'm munching on my slice of cheese pizza.

We're all sleeping with each other.

Hey, nobody gave me that memo!

Just because someone chooses not to sleep with every person they encounter or find attractive, does not automatically mean they are repressed or insecure.

i dont even know what that has to do with the difficulty of single women having trouble getting housing in delhi due to other peoples finger pointing...do you think these women are sleeping around? do you think discriminating against them is right, because they might not be as "moral" as your holiness?

I do find it offensive that I was asked every single time about how I could manage parenthood and work.Why should my partner not be asked the same?

Because we live in a society where mothers do most of the leg work when it comes to early child rearing. the question was about managing motherhood and work, not simply parenthood.

Furthermore my question was to elucidate that men have certain expectations placed on them, particularly in the financial realm, that women do not.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how your situation (lying constantly to your parents, giving them no inclination of what your life is actually like ) should somehow make us sympathize.

I sympathize...it depends on what you are lying about and what the parents reaction is. I had to lie a lot to my parents b/c there would be too much unconstructive sh*t to pay for what were ordinary mistakes or not even mistakes but choices. I'm glad you had parents that you could go to, G-Unit, but I didn't and I don't think lying to your parents is categorically immoral. I'd heartily encourage some of my friends, knowing the types of parents that they have, to lie...it's much better than what the parents would do.

We're all sleeping with each other.

ur all done there...

Also, there is some truth to what was said earlier; if you didn't have anything you thought you had to hide, you wouldn't hide anything. Obviously somewhere deep down, you either feel that some of your actions are unacceptable, or that your parents would view them as such. I would suggest that the problem is one of communication.

I just don't want to constantly explain my choices to anyone, including parents. That does not mean there is no communication with my parents. Of course they know there is lot more to me than what they see. Communication will happen on a need to know basis.

From the admirable restraint she's demonstrating in her responses, I'd say Coach is a paragon of virtue.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how your situation (lying constantly to your parents, giving them no inclination of what your life is actually like ) should somehow make us sympathize. If anything, you are an excellent example of what your parents are worried about, that in America their kids will have some secret double life that they won't know about

i don't expect sympathy - just no judgment. the reason i do this - and i only do it when it comes to romance/sex - is because my parents and i have distinctly different opinions on these matters, and they have made it very clear that they think this is immoral. i don't think what i do is immoral, so who is right in this situation? in every other instance, i tell my parents everything - they know i drink, i party, they know what's going on academically, in my career etc. but my parents cannot expect their kids to be open with them if they are so judgmental all the time. my parents are of the judgmental sort - and i cannot help that. the communication goes both ways - if parents are unwilling to accept certain practises and make that clear, that implicitly curtails the possibility of their kids being open with them about evetything. i have tried in many other instances to have an open dialogue on certain topics (dating, sex, mixed-religion marriages etc), but they can be irrational. i don't think their irrationality should mean that 1. what i am doing is wrong; or 2. i should stop doing it. i say these things on this forum because i felt that i would not be judged for my comments - but clearly i am being judged.

my basic motto is that people should be able to do whatever they want, without judgment (moral or otherwise) as long as it's not hurting somebody else. i only have issues with people/incidents that fall beyond this. otherwise, to each his/her own.

AK-

While I agree with your response above in abstract, beacuse it is consistent with Western Englightenment thought and what they teach us in order to be good liberals at college, I don't know that it necessary always applicable in real life.

Personally, I think the tendency to judge is a huge flaw in both American and Indian society. I try to avoid it as much as I can. But according to your quote, drinking one's self into oblivion every night (so long as you don't drive home) would be OK. Sleeping with countless prostitutes, OK. Shooting up on heroin, OK. Basically all self-destructive behavior is condoned. I think not harming other people is a start. But I think that morality (which I agree is extremely vague and abstract) must run deeper.

Essentially I think the way most cultures understand morality is the acceptance of certain rules and practices that have proved beneficial for the growth and success of the population. Monogamy used to be considered integral, especially for women, because otherwise the men had no proof that any children were their own. Now with DNA testing, paternity suits and child support, perhaps the need for this is declining. Similarly, I think most commonly accepted human practices have their roots in the same type of evolutionary psychology. The more advanced we get technologically, the more of these may disapper. Heck you don't even need actual parents to have babies anymore. But I still object to terming anything "backwards", which itself is the exact type of judgment you said you like to avoid. Especially when so many people on here have confirmed that my views are still prevalent in India, popular among our parents generation and perpetuated through the world. It smack of the arrogance of privilege and youth.

Since someone mentioned drumsticks and sambar (evil hex thrown your way) - anyone know what the proper term for the vegetable we know as drumstick really is? My SO wants to know, and I'm admittedly curious too.

(sorry for digression)

Coach Diesel-

You are correct to point out my gross generalization and for that I apologize. Having spent a good amount of time traveling, I am aware of the great deal of diversity and nuance in Latin cultures, and that lifestyles vary a great deal throughout the Spanish speaking world. I guess I've been reading too many comments on this site, and have become so used to people decrying the nebulous "Indian culture" that I responded in kind. Obviously I think those generalizations are equally inaccurate in regards to Indians. What for instance, would my family, from the professional class in Madras, have in common with IT workers in Bangalore, Diamond merchants in Mumbai or sustenance farmers in Bihar? The truth is, not much, but I have not seen this pointed out very much in dialogues like this.

Ak- I think our problem (those of us growing up here) is that our parents left India and never thought that things have changed in India since the 1960s.

G unit has a long history of making such comments on these boards.
Also ladies, make the landlords an offer they can’t refuse next time you are looking for an apartment in India.

While I agree with your response above in abstract, beacuse it is consistent with Western Englightenment thought and what they teach us in order to be good liberals at college, I don't know that it necessary always applicable in real life.

it is also consistent with a large corpus of Hindu thought. Examples, Lokayata or Carvaka philosophy. India has a loooong tradition of hedonism too (sex, wine etc.). Recognize that your "morality" is only one of many.

I am having me some home made hot drumstick sambar and rice

that is my favourite meal of all. SP - proper term? like the latin binomial name? no clue. i don't even know what they call it in hindi - only in tamil and telugu. is it eaten outside of south india?

You know what would make that meal better? Some paruppu usili. gulti girl, invoke whomever you'd like to invoke to minimize that stomach ache from hell coming your way. Ok, judge me for saying that.

Recognize that your "morality" is only one of many.

What all of you are missing is that this morality can beat up all the other moralities.

I think our problem (those of us growing up here) is that our parents left India and never thought that things have changed in India since the 1960s.

I think this is also extremely true. Since brown has correctly pointed out that I have held the same views for some time and they are unlikely to change, and I am equally unlikely to find any solidarity due to the "backwardness" of my upbringing, I will refrain from further commenting on this thread. May you all have a pleasant afternoon, and happy house hunting!

AK - yes, Latin or whatever....it's not known much outside south India, I don't think. But I lived in Madras as a child and adooooooooooored it.

Am a total region traitor for saying this but south indian food is so much better than north indian.

But thought this might be helpful.

Am a total region traitor for saying this but south indian food is so much better than north indian.

I don't blame you, SP. It is.

G-Unit,

I meant to highlight consistency of your comments to people who don't know the history.

You know what would make that meal better? Some paruppu usili.

perhaps. but my aunt makes this amazing vazhakkai varuval to accompany. together, this is always my first and last meal in india, plus a mango if it's the season. gulti girl, the lack of drumstick is going to make me sad all day...

HMF # 192

Furthermore my question was to elucidate that men have certain expectations placed on them, particularly in the financial realm, that women do not.

I will not argue with the expectations bit because I know it is tru in many cases.
Perhaps the reason I found it offensive is that this does not apply in my case. I have worked and even been the primary breadwinner when the situation called for it. I have a chip on my shoulder about this I think because it seemed to me to be the continuation of what I went through in college being told constantly by certain male classmates that I was "Taking up some poor guy's place" since of course, I being a woman was not going to have a career :-)

Ak- I think our problem (those of us growing up here) is that our parents left India and never thought that things have changed in India since the 1960s.

Global sanskrit: I completely agree with you.Sometimes I find myself being the only one making contra statements about India here.Probably because I grew up there and lived there as recently as 2000. My parents - who I thought were conservative- actually were much more relaxed about stuff such as my going on trips with a mixed gender group etc .Times have changed.

I don't blame you, SP. It is.

Agreed. I "third" that

Am a total region traitor for saying this but south indian food is so much better than north indian

i agree, and i;m so not ashamed to say it. i am an extreme south indian food snob. and it's sad because all most people know about south indian food is sambar-dosa-idli.

Murungakkai sambar. Paruppu usili. Vazhakkai varuval.

Mandaiveli reprazent!

brown-

The way I understoof your comment was essentially that people holding my views which are admittedly not the norm among young people, especially ABDs, is not welcome. I have done my best to tell only the truth about my life, admitting to the many mistakes and missteps I have taken, as I am hardly perfect and do not consider myself on a "moral high ground" or anything similar. That doesn't mean I can't think that there is something higher worth aspiring to, and I think the great loss of Western civilization, despite its many achievements, is the removal of that aspiration and its replacement by material comfort.

Have a nice day.

G-Unit,

Not my intent, just wanted to highlight that your views even though extreme are fairly consistent which should give others a better idea about your stand. I feel you are the other side of the coin to PG and Prema's views. For me knowledge of this fact helps put things in perspective.

I am having me some home made hot drumstick sambar and rice

That's playing kinda dirty, considering the insipid mac-n-cheese I just had for lunch. Now I have an incredible craving for drumstick sambar and thayir saadam with maanga urugai. Dammit!

Gulti Girl,
Guilt works both ways. Bust out "So you would rather trust anutie XYZ whose daughter ran away* w/ a lafanga than (theatrical hand gestures) your own daughter?"
Underhanded, but works like a charm.

* Highlighting the said auntie's current sorry situation is very important. Most people bitching about other people's kids usually have some red hot stuff in their own backyard.

I know all this morality discussion has sort of put a damper on things, but I have one question. Are we still sleeping with each other? Please confirm before the next meetup. Thank you.

I will not argue with the expectations bit because I know it is tru in many cases. Perhaps the reason I found it offensive is that this does not apply in my case.

Well, sorry to say, it does apply in your case, and everyone's case. because my statement was regarding expectation, and unless you lived in a society of spaceships orbitting planet earth, those expectations apply to you. In other words, you could work, make gillions, and hire mercenaries to launch an attack on the Delhi Housing comission, but the expectation for you to be the primary breadwinner will never be as strong as it is for a guy.

male classmates that I was "Taking up some poor guy's place" since of course, I being a woman was not going to have a career :-)

I'm with you here, even if you didn't have a career, you earned that spot. it's yours to use, or yours to "flush away."

Why is sleeping with many, many people considered immoral in any way shape or form? ...other than if you're not getting any and you're jealous?..:) Equating sex and morality is dumb as fuck...

Ak- I think our problem (those of us growing up here) is that our parents left India and never thought that things have changed in India since the 1960s.

yes and no. my parents are actually quite liberal, and by that i mean, they are generally open/understanding of their children's lifestyles. in contrast, my family back home is still very conservative, and going by my cousins' lifestyles, i don't think much has changed in our family in the 40 years my parents have been away from india. however, i do see the phenomenon you describe happening in other families.

but the expectation for you to be the primary breadwinner will never be as strong as it is for a guy.

Please,please tell my husband this.
Then I can quit this cubicle hell and spend all day on SM :-)

I know all this morality discussion has sort of put a damper on things, but I have one question. Are we still sleeping with each other? Please confirm before the next meetup. Thank you.

sorry, but i won't be able to confirm anything until the next meet-up.

and unless you lived in a society of spaceships orbitting planet earth

Babylon V had the same problems.

Especially Malayali food, mmmm.

Shodan, you a Bombay boy? You have to be, using words like lafanga :)

G-unit, back in the early 90s I attended a very conservative Southern Baptist college. The campus was 100% dry, even if you were 21+ you were not supposed to drink, there were no co-ed dorms, any women who got pregnant out of wedlock were subject to expulsion, and there was absolutely no social functions allowed on campus that had any kind of dancing. Guess what happened... people would drink off campus, move off campus after their first year, join the Greek system who all had off-campus houses, and any campus events that had any kind of dancing, they were held at an off-site location. This was no different than any other school though. People would party, people would have sex, people would do stupid campus stuff. But if any students talked to anyone on the outside, they would always maintain that it was a very conservative school and maintain that conservative image. Was it hypocrisy or lying, or immoral? I don't think so. I think it was a respect for the traditions that seemed outdated but didn't deserve any disrespect. People still graduated, people still led normal lives, and people stil continued to contribute to society. Now for someone like me, who's not Baptist or even Christian for that matter, it was a bit amusing because it mirrored what it was like to be a desi born and raised in the US. We respected our parents which is why we didn't always tell them everything, not because we wanted to act underhanded.

Rahul, SP and ak:

This was the best sambar I have *ever* made and it beats my Mom's sambar hands down. All your hexes together won't make a difference :).

Yay to south indian food snobbery! I will never eat dosa at a place named Bombay* or India* or Taj* only Madras*, Saravana and the likes for me.

Please,please tell my husband this. Then I can quit this cubicle hell and spend all day on SM :-)

He's not in a hell of his own?

Gulti girl, recipe please, pretty please with drumsticks on top?

I swear I won't threadjack any more.

threadjack? Mmmm. Jack fruit.

This was the best sambar I have *ever* made and it beats my Mom's sambar hands down. All your hexes together won't make a difference :).

You're about to end up with the mother of all stomach aches, ya know...

gulti girl, i MUST have the recipe. unfortunately, i grew up in a south indian household where sambar was the one dish my mom makes atrociously. this is exactly why i am happy to have so many tambram aunties in the states. my attempts to improve on her sambar skills have been somewhat successful, but i could always use some help.

gulti girl, I think I speak for ak, hema, et al when I say "Nalla iruppiyaa, nee?".

Gulti Girl, Guilt works both ways. Bust out "So you would rather trust anutie XYZ whose daughter ran away* w/ a lafanga than (theatrical hand gestures) your own daughter?" Underhanded, but works like a charm.

Ha ha. This is the best piece of advise I've received in this matter! I can't do the hand gestures over an international call, but will try to emote them in the voice next time.

gulti girl, I think I speak for ak, hema, et al when I say "Nalla iruppiyaa, nee?".

rahul, not until after she shares the recipe! and for the record, gg, i didn't hex you.

threadjack? Mmmm. Jack fruit.

Chakka varatti is the best stuff evah. Palakkad reprazent!

I know all this morality discussion has sort of put a damper on things, but I have one question. Are we still sleeping with each other? Please confirm before the next meetup. Thank you.

I need your biodatas before I can decide if we're sleeping together. And despite HMF's sentiments, biodata includes your salary.

G-unit, back in the early 90s I attended a very conservative Southern Baptist college. The campus was 100% dry, even if you were 21+ you were not supposed to drink, there were no co-ed dorms, any women who got pregnant out of wedlock were subject to expulsion, and there was absolutely no social functions allowed on campus that had any kind of dancing. Guess what happened...

Kevin Bacon came and taught you all how to dance?

I need your biodatas before I can decide if we're sleeping together. And despite HMF's sentiments, biodata includes your salary.

i would love to whip out a horoscope in the middle of a 1 night stand.

gulti girl, I think I speak for ak, hema, et al when I say "Nalla iruppiyaa, nee?".

Translation please?

Oh and the recipe involves my Mom's world famous sambar powder and bean dal (dried seeds of the fat indian kind of beans - chikkudu pappu in telugu) instead of toor or mung.

I've tried the "adverse comparison" technique in other contexts (my parents don't get overwrought about the topic we've been discussing, so it hasn't been necessary.) The depressing thing is that everybody, everybody, has some redeeming values. So the net result is that you are expected to be some giraffe like hybrid of A's good manners, B's academic ability, C's discipline, D's professional success, and so on...

I am having me some home made hot drumstick sambar and rice.
And I’m having malai kofta I made last night. Just to be clear Manju, that does not make me a gurl.

Shodan, you a Bombay boy? You have to be, using words like lafanga :)
Bombay, yes. Boy, hardly. More like uncle.

damn reading this at work. intimacy games on my screen is not work-friendly.

#231

He's not in a hell of his own?

You mean ..aside from being married to me ?:-)

gulti girl, I think I speak for ak, hema, et al when I say "Nalla iruppiyaa, nee?". Translation please?

A little hard, which is why I didn't do it. Probably something like "And you think you can be happy?". Say it in an appropriate wheedling tone.

Kevin Bacon came and taught you all how to dance?

Oh, I thought it was Swayze with his underground classes that ended up putting the Baby Jesus in a corner.

Bombay, yes. Boy, hardly. More like uncle.

Uncle with cool dance moves :). I remember Hobbit cafe, Shodan.

Rahul, I think I might have developed a giant crush on you. Let's go on a 60 mile walk.

I need your biodatas before I can decide if we're sleeping together. And despite HMF's sentiments, biodata includes your salary.

All you need to know.

"And you think you can be happy?"

With all the sambar in my stomach, I AM happy :).

Rahul, I think I might have developed a giant crush on you. Let's go on a 60 mile walk.

Get in line, portmanteau...

I need your biodatas before I can decide if we're sleeping together. And despite HMF's sentiments, biodata includes your salary

i would love to whip out a horoscope in the middle of a 1 night stand.

All you need to know.

Ah, I missed this. To add, a Sun (solaris server) in the study...

(Can't believe I just said that!)

i would love to whip out a horoscope in the middle of a 1 night stand.

i always have the power-point presentation at hand.

:) --- one thing, don't tell my parents about the potential one-night stands; if they ask about my potential plans, tell them I am studying, even though I graduated from grad school some 7 years ago. It'll still work.

Rahul, I think I might have developed a giant crush on you. Let's go on a 60 mile walk.

I am the one walking 60 miles. Rahul should take a walk with me!

Let's go on a 60 mile walk.

portmanteau, with me, it won't be just 60 miles. I am the Forrest Gump of walks.

portmanteau, with me, it won't be just 60 miles. I am the Forrest Gump of walks.

life is like a box of condomns. u never know what ur gonna get...

#244 Rahul: "So the net result is that you are expected to be some giraffe like hybrid of A's good manners, B's academic ability, C's discipline, D's professional success, and so on..."

That's how one builds a master race. The Nazis were decimated, but we, the first-generation IBD's, shall prevail.

:) --- one thing, don't tell my parents about the potential one-night stands; if they ask about my potential plans, tell them I am studying, even though I graduated from grad school some 7 years ago. It'll still work.

no problem. just don't tell my parents about that thing i did back in 1997. after all isn't that what our parents tell us - that marriage is all about give and take?

Or you get what you pay for

Or you get it in a size you ask for :)

And despite HMF's sentiments, biodata includes your salary

and it's heavily weighted, dependent on gender.

no problem. just don't tell my parents about that thing i did back in 1997. after all isn't that what our parents tell us - that marriage is all about give and take?

now....u gotta tell me what u did in 1997.

After Two hundred and sixty odd messages of spicy talk about sleeping around, crushes, dating, women's rights, nosy auties and general morality, there is not one who talks about the real underlying issue. I tried to stay out of this one, but as a libertarian addict, this is my drug. Unlike most of you, I don't have spicy stuff to offer - just a boring, dull, lifeless response. The Truth.

The issue is one that of property rights, and how they have evolved separately from that of America's. Seeing Ms.Singh's plight from the lens of American laws is confusing and misses the point.

Firstly, in the rental market, there's the organized sector and the individual sector. America has both, but I bet most of us have largely dealt only with the organized sector(apartments, condos, co-ops) where there's rental company with employees, rules and regulations that need to follow laws against discrimination. The individual sector, where the landlord has built an addendum to his house tries to rent it out via classifieds, has the same issues of discrimination that beset Ms. Singh. But I don't want to go there. FYI - India does not have an organized sector (it's barely begining).

In America, property rights are enforced very strictly. If you rent out a property to someone, it is properly documented after verifying their credit, financial and criminal history. There is no way the renter can claim your property as his/her own. There is no way the person can refuse to evict (after the contract period is over). Any damages caused to the property are settled quickly in court or via insurance.The police respond very swiftly when the landlord is threatened in any manner. In fact, the landlord does not even need to be around. Sitting in California, you could invest in apartments in the Carolinas. At the most you would have to make one visit during the purchase. There are strong laws against subletting.

In India, the story is very different. It is very difficult to evict someone, even when they don't pay rent. Nothing is documented and most arrangements are word of mouth. Disputes take decades to decide in court. Goondaism is rampant. The police rarely respond to such disputes because they have bigger fish to fry. The landlord needs to visit the property often to make sure that the renter has not sublet the place to his cousin's family. And then we have the concept of "rent control", where the renter can snitch against the landlord to the Government, who then place the property as reserved for "low income housing". Then it becomes a headache for the landlord to "disprove" that vague charge, taking years to resolve.

In short, in America, it's easy to evict. Since the ultimate power resides with the landlord, the Government has mandated that there be no discrimination in housing. In India, it's difficult to evict. Since the renter has considerable power, the Government cannot mandate the landlord to not discriminate.

Easy Eviction = Easy entry. Landlord asks for last two paystubs, checks criminal history and credit record. Maybe what pets you intend to keep.

Difficult Eviction = Difficult entry. A hundred questions are asked. Are you single? What caste are you? Your religion is WHAT? Show me steady income for the last three years. Get a letter from your employer. Where is your family? What food will you cook? Who else will stay with you? Who will be your guests? And on and on and on.

Now to the other issue of why Mrs. Kakkar rents out to single foreign women with questionable morality.

1. They pay more. A whole lot more.
2. They don't stay for years. They are usually on a temporary assignment and they leave.
3. They don't know local laws - so they cannot go to the municipality and demand subsidised housing/rent control. They don't even know the local language to make any trouble. They don't sublet it out to their cousin. And they almost always stay on the right side of the law.

AMFD
>>They need to enact anti-discrimination public housing laws in Delhi...

...as soon as they start implementing property rights.

M. Nam

but, moornam...even iff it is solely an issue of property rights, where the people ask a lot of questions when u go in, it seems more of just plain sexism if they dont mind renting to a single guy if he lives alone, and dont like renting to a single girl living alone, because $he must be a sl*t. asking a lot of questions is one thing, this is something else entirely.

M. Nam - did you miss the subtext, well really the whole goddamned text of the article that this is a problem for young single Indian women? Not young single Indians.

The Truth.

be carefull bandying around phrases like that....

Puliogre/Rahul,

The point I am trying to make is: If you don't have stronly defined and implemented property rights, the personal biases of the landlord will become the deterministic factor in the transaction. The biases may vary from person to person: Caste, Religion, Race, Marital Status, Male/Female, Sexual orientation etc etc.

The same principle applies to companies' hiring/firing. The easier it is to fire a person, the more amenable it is for the company to hire without any personal biases. The more difficult it is to fire, the more they tend to hire within caste, religion, language etc. But that's a diversion from this subject, so I'll stop there.

M. Nam

I hear you, MoorNam. Everything you say is true, but the underlying issue in Abhi's post - at least the way I understood it - had to do with the Indian male's unique perception of women. IBD's, please don't consider this as anti-Indian. I am an IBD, too, and my generation's penchant for slotting women into sister/mother/aunt role before we can comfortably relate to them defies explanation. It is neither good, nor bad. It is what it is. I don't know how emancipated I am after 35 years in the US, but I would never serve a young niece a drink in my home. I have nothing against drinking but I would prefer she helped herself.

Anybody know some foreign women in Gurgaon interested in renting a house?

Thanks Rahul @ # 267.

It's people like you that keep the thread right on track so I can feel free to continue to jack it up, building my case for unimaginable perversities and sliding morals...

Cannot believe I am leaping to MoorNam's defence but ...
he brings out an important point.

Is it possible that at least in some instances landlord's probing in the interests of protecting their property has been confused with plain ole misogyny? ( Again : not in all cases , there are always the busy body types)

Runa, I brought out the same issue in #17. Incidentally, that was also David Cone's number when he pitched for the Mets, in the early 90's.

Are we seriously giving any credence to the "Christian Science Monitor"? Seriously?

If eviction etc is the main concern, landlords should jump on to rent out to single women, because apart from some imagined syrens they might turn out to be, they will be the ones who might pay rent on time and move out upon appropriate notice.

Unless all those single girls also befriend the local goons for her private bring your own sauce BBQ! That must be happening all the time on bollywood movies, yup.

the individual sector, where the landlord has built an addendum to his house tries to rent it out via classifieds, has the same issues of discrimination that beset Ms. Singh. But I don't want to go there. FYI - India does not have an organized sector (it's barely begining).

They need to enact anti-discrimination public housing laws in Delhi.

Let me paraphrase John Howard, We (the landlord) decides who comes in and the circumstances they come in.

The point I am trying to make is: If you don't have stronly defined and implemented property rights, the personal biases of the landlord will become the deterministic factor in the transaction. The biases may vary from person to person: Caste, Religion, Race, Marital Status, Male/Female, Sexual orientation etc etc.

ohh...i get it. basically ur saying that the systems relating to property management are messed up, so the decision is based on personal biases of the landlord. that makes sense. i.e. if the systems worked, and most of the rentals are in nice apt blocks being monitored by regulations, the biases matter less...

I meant paribus

threadjack? Mmmm. Jack fruit.

Chakka varatti is the best stuff evah. Palakkad reprazent!

HAhahahaha nice one Hema, Palakkadian Pride!!!! (for lack of a better term)

Then isn't that more important? i.e. the fact that individuals do not have comparable resources to overcome information asymmetry, and therefore they use other proxies? This would mean that ceteris paribis information asymmetry will have more effect on landlord behavior than property rights (this is not to say the property rights do not have effects).

i dont know if the landlords/tenants having asymetric information is what is causing this kind of discrimination. i dont really uinderstand this statement.

M. Nam: I am not sure how better protection for landlords will prevent them from exercising their biases, as long as the demand far exceeds the supply. As for your analogous point about hiring, I just don't get it. Isn't the entire history of employment discrimination in the U.S against Jews, women, minorities etc., which has had to be rectified by workplace equality laws, proof enough? There are questions that you can ask to divine intent, or contractual structures you can put in place, which have absolutely nothing to do with sexuality/religion/morality as long as these do not affect the transaction in question.

Coach: I've been accused of many things in my life, but never has anyone stooped so low as to blame me for keeping things on track.

Can we start reacting to people's comments and not their online ciphers. Good general analysis Moornam. I know hundred families fighting over their families' apartment in Bombay as the free market hasn't produced more decent housing and rent control keeps some of the best centrally located apartments in WWII prices. Also many fammlies are unwilling to rent apartments/rooms as they fear they will have a squatter sitauttion which is often impossible to rectify thru the courts and only thru dadagiri. But also I have no doubt Indian women face more scrutiny/discrimination even in places like Bangalore/Delhi/Bombay.

Moornam you hit the nail your prognoses about the whole issue is absolutely right. In company managed properties this is rarely a problem, when you rent a place where the landlord himself lives ( as in most of India) these problems are bound to occur anywhere.

To add to what Rahul said, even economically speaking there are "equillibria" that are discriminatory even in the presence of strident property rights and enforcement. What rahul points out is basically an example of what I pointed out above (#276) except here the "information" the landlord acts on is a stereotype masquerading as a short-cut.

Are we seriously giving any credence to the "Christian Science Monitor"? Seriously?

And seriously you mean that? CSM is one of the best papers out there when it comes to a balanced international coverage. If you are saying this after reading CSM for a few days then I would be really surprised. This might help you, from the papers About web page -

Is the paper a religious periodical?
No, it's a real newspaper published by a church ¿ The First Church of Christ, Scientist in Boston, Mass., USA. Everything in the Monitor is international and US news and features, except for one religious article that has appeared each day in The Home Forum section since 1908, at the request of the paper's founder, Mary Baker Eddy.
In an age of corporate conglomerates dominating news media, the Monitor combination of church ownership, a public-service mission, and commitment to covering the world (not to mention the fact that it was founded by a woman shortly after the turn of the century, when US women didn't yet have the vote!) gives the paper a uniquely independent voice in journalism.

While it does not cover as much in terms of breadth and number of topics (have not seen much of Art, Music, Lifestyle, Finance, etc - usually it's socio-politics), what it covers is usually of high quality and has a very high percentage of international news.

So basically Moornam is wrong in the context of this particular discussion.

>>If eviction etc is the main concern, landlords should jump on to rent out to single women

Eviction is linked to rentability. You want to evict someone so that you could rent it out to someone who is more stable or pays more.

A single woman in the Indian scenario is quite unlike her western counterpart in matters of safety. You folks may have stayed in many apartments in your life, and the possibility is strong that in one of the apartments you stayed in, there was a rape or a murder. You just don't know about it. The landlord probably saw a brief hiccup in rental checks, but within a couple of months everything was back on track.

However, if the single woman gets raped or murdered in the house, the landlord will face a daunting task to re-rent the place. In India, almost every renter asks around the neighbourhood before making a move. Once they find out that something untoward happened in the place, they will run. The landlord won't be able to rent the place. FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
He will have to do pujas and havans, change the direction of doors, break down a wall or two to convince the people that it was not the vaastu of his house that caused the rape/murder.

M. Nam

Sigh,

I am not sure how you reach that conclusion based on your theory of information assymetary. Who has priviliged information in this case and who is benefitting from it?

Difficult Eviction = Difficult entry. A hundred questions are asked. Are you single? What caste are you? Your religion is WHAT? Show me steady income for the last three years. Get a letter from your employer. Where is your family? What food will you cook? Who else will stay with you? Who will be your guests? And on and on and on.

I know of a poor landlord who rented his house, his retirement savings, for 11 months in Bombay coz he was away in Mysore. The tenant lived for 25 years, did not pay rent for 24 of those years. They tried to have the locks changed, tried police, law, courts, even politicians. The only solution was to sell that home and since it was a disputed property the house was sold at a 50% discount to market rate plus the tenant got 50% of the sales proceeds to leave the property.

While it does not cover as much in terms of breadth and number of topics (have not seen much of Art, Music, Lifestyle, Finance, etc - usually it's socio-politics),

Actually I stand corrected on that too, they just don't have RSS feeds on everything which is why I was not seeing the rest of the stuff

However, if the single woman gets raped or murdered in the house, the landlord will face a daunting task to re-rent the place.

I don't disagree with your central idea that re-renting for the landlord will be an uphill battle. However, there is an underlying assumption that only renting to single women poses the threat of nefarious/criminal activities on the property. Single men can be murder victims too...and married women can be rape victims too. The fact that the landlord may not be able to keep such information from the renting public is distinct from the fact that there is some inherent disadvantage to renting to single women.

I second Ardy on the CSM. I had the same bias about it based on its title when I first heard about it many years ago, but I've always found its articles well researched and serious when I've read it.

However, if the single woman gets raped or murdered in the house, the landlord will face a daunting task to re-rent the place. In India, almost every renter asks around the neighbourhood before making a move. Once they find out that something untoward happened in the place, they will run. The landlord won't be able to rent the place. FOR A VERY LONG TIME. He will have to do pujas and havans, change the direction of doors, break down a wall or two to convince the people that it was not the vaastu of his house that caused the rape/murder.

yeah, but the landlord complaints arent that the women is unsafe, its that shes a sl*t for wanting to live without family...

only renting to single women poses the threat of nefarious/criminal activities on the property. Single men can be murder victims too...and married women can be rape victims too.

And single Indian guys might be lafangas too.

However, if the single woman gets raped or murdered in the house, the landlord will face a daunting task to re-rent the place. In India, almost every renter asks around the neighbourhood before making a move. Once they find out that something untoward happened in the place, they will run. The landlord won't be able to rent the place. FOR A VERY LONG TIME. He will have to do pujas and havans, change the direction of doors, break down a wall or two to convince the people that it was not the vaastu of his house that caused the rape/murder.

a

Folks,

It boils down to the same issue. In the absence of strong property rights, the personal biases of the landlord rule the roost. The biases vary from landlord to landlord. Yes. A single man may be murdered as well. Yes, a married woman may be raped as well. But it all depends on the landlord's perception - not yours. He will calculate the probability of the event happening and base his decision on that. If he is personally biased against a certain lifestyle, it will become a factor in his decision making. It is natural.

If you want to take the bias out - bring/enfore the law.

M. Nam

yeah, but the landlord complaints arent that the women is unsafe, its that shes a sl*t for wanting to live without family..

Looks like you haven't read the whole article.

Folks,

It boils down to the same issue. In the absence of strong property rights, the personal biases of the landlord rule the roost. The biases vary from landlord to landlord. Yes. A single man may be murdered as well. Yes, a married woman may be raped as well. But it all depends on the landlord's perception - not yours. He will calculate the probability of the event happening and base his decision on that. If he is personally biased against a certain lifestyle, it will become a factor in his decision making. It is natural.

If you want to take the bias out - bring/enfore the law.

M. Nam

im not sure if the landlord in this case is behaving as if he has the bias that single women living alone are likely to get killed, and therefore will decreasemy rental stream. it sounds like he is behaving like he thinks these people are immoral drty sl*ts, and doesnt want to rent to them cause they are l00se.

If you want to take the bias out - bring/enfore the law.

Well, duh. But isn't that symptomatic of pretty much everything in India? There is a law for X, Y, and Z, but it's rarely enforced.

Looks like you haven't read the whole article.

im talking about thigs like this:

"Staying in Calcutta would curtail my freedom," Ms. Chatterjee says. "Staying here is also a headache because the landlords think every time you bring a male friend home you are starting a brothel. It's insulting."

i read that as "fre@kin sl*t, bringing guys to her apartment"

Also, M. Nam, can you please explain how your logic works in the case of hiring/firing as I asked in #282?

i read that as "fre@kin sl*t, bringing guys to her apartment"

This is one person giving an opinion about her (lunatic) landlord...no need to generalize it.
There were parts of article which also talked about landlords being protective of their tenants etc.

So don't make "she's a slut, I won't rent her" as central theme of this article.

There were parts of article which also talked about landlords being protective of their tenants etc.

yeah..but they dont mean protective like protect them from crimes. i mean. they are not protective of foereign girls. what they mean by protective is like "protect them from sin"

brown (#289),

The landlord faces information asymmetry in this case (of course I am assuming background property rights). It is often very difficult for the individual landlord to determine ex ante whether s/he is going to have problems with the renters (and merely credit check etc. does not suffice. note here that strong property rights can only help so much, and I have already assumed them). Its not worth to the landlord to be embroiled in a legal dispute (however for rental companies its different; they almost always have lawyers etc, and therefore can take more risks). Now lets talk about discrimination and this specific discussion. Here the landlord must not be considered in isolation; discrimination takes place in the context of social expectations (even irrational once; i.e. the discrimination itself is "rational" but in a very irrational framework). To cut to the chase, it can be shown that given certain views --for instance in this case the use of single women as a proxy for undesirable characteristics-- and certain expectations, systematic discrimination is an equilibrium. Landlords may fear that in a social context where (s/he believes) that people believe (the game theoretic term for this mutual belief is common knowledge) that single women living alone is a bad sign, it might attract the "wrong" kind of people (given this common knowledge).

For women who do find an apartment, they understand that the landlord will take on a parental role.

"It's an Indian mentality," says Sonia Kakkar, a landlord in South Delhi. "We just feel more protective. You just feel that you are responsible."

Ms. Kakkar currently rents the second floor of her building to two French women and prefers foreigners because she does not feel as protective of them.

"They are used to living on their own," she says. "If they have a problem with the flat, they come to us. Otherwise, there is no interaction."

Daljit Madan, another South Delhi landlord, rents out two studio apartments in his house. He says he has no problem with single female Indian renters. But he does make sure they are working professionals, he says.

"When you have a decent lady living in your house," Mr. Madan says, "it becomes your moral responsibility to make sure she is safe and secure. It is not the same with boys. So from that perspective, some people don't want to get into that and rent to single women."

PindaUSA, where does it say "protect from sin". Care to elaborate.

Every third comment is yours, fine and dandy, bring it on, however, may I please ask do you have any experience in India - renting, and all - for that matter, any real experience in India. It is not that simple, MoorNam alluded to some of them regarding renting

Typo. I meant even irrational ones; i.e. the discrimination itself is "rational" but in a very irrational framework)

yeah..but they dont mean protective like protect them from crimes. i mean. they are not protective of foereign girls. what they mean by protective is like "protect them from sin"

That's true in some cases.

My sister rented several places in Delhi for a period of 3-4 years. She always had good things to say about her landlords (save one)... how they often invited her to have dinner with them, how they loaned her money (i.e. didn't take rent for a couple of months) when she needed it desperately and didn't want to ask dad etc. I have a few friends in Delhi and their experience hasn't been so rosy.

ah. i see which part you are reffering to. i thought brown was talking about this:

While landlords all across India are leery of single female renters, Anuroopa Giliyal, a human rights lawyer, says this discrimination is worse in Delhi, a city known for its conservatism. "In certain parts of Delhi, landlords refuse to give their apartments to single women," Ms. Giliyal says. "Even if they do, they put restrictions on return-home time, inviting friends, or they try to impress on [tenants] what acceptable behavior would be."

By law, landlords are not allowed to reject a tenant because she is a single woman, but the behavior persists, Giliyal says. Women don't seek intervention, probably because they feel it wouldn't solve much, she says.

For women who do find an apartment, they understand that the landlord will take on a parental role.

"It's an Indian mentality," says Sonia Kakkar, a landlord in South Delhi. "We just feel more protective. You just feel that you are responsible."

Ms. Kakkar currently rents the second floor of her building to two French women and prefers foreigners because she does not feel as protective of them.

"They are used to living on their own," she says. "If they have a problem with the flat, they come to us. Otherwise, there is no interaction."

in this section, if the landlord is behaving in a way that implies that he is afraid of the grl getting a crime committed against them because he perceives women as more suseptible, he would also worry about the foreign grls. But, it seems more like the landlors she is reffering to think that they need to protect indian grls more. that leads me to think, what are the landlords protecting indian grls from that foreign grls dont need to be protected from? is it physical attack? no. more like moral decay. i mean, if foreign grls are already "pre-decayed" why protect them. indian grls on the other hand, you should keep an eye on.

but i do see your point that this is a logical leap on my part.

as for me having experience in india, i am just commenting on what i read in this article, and hopefully getting some help making some sense out of this from people who have more experience in these matters than me.

Every third comment is yours, fine and dandy, bring it on

a slow day @ the office...

The fact that you have a boyfriend raises questions about your morality, Ms. Singh says. "They think you might be a bad girl."

stuff like this is what i read as "protect from sin" like if she has a boyfriend, she is a "bad girl". i mean. they are not trying to protect her from crimes. just from being a "bad girl"

PindaUS: (like that name,..thanks Kush)

stuff like this is what i read as "protect from sin" like if she has a boyfriend, she is a "bad girl". i mean. they are not trying to protect her from crimes. just from being a "bad girl"

For every such landlord, there might be ten others who believe otherwise.
Having a "boy-friend" or a "girl friend" is not very uncommon in Delhi (or in any other Indian city for that matter), and most of these landlords are themselves parents...so they usually understand this. They sometimes become too over-protective when it comes to girls ..but this doesn't mean that the majority views it a "sin" to have a boy or girl friend.

fair enough. not sure what word i could use that is more light handed than sin though. like sin-light. diet-sin. sin-free. low calorie sin.

stuff like this is what i read as "protect from sin" like if she has a boyfriend, she is a "bad girl". i mean. they are not trying to protect her from crimes. just from being a "bad girl"

It's not just about protecting her, in fact if they don't know her - that is probably a lesser concern. It's more about the 'bad influence' on their family, neighborhood, etc. And like it or not, there are a lot of people who look down upon pre marital sex in India.

Didn't want to participate in this discussion because this issue is somewhat personal

We have one flat in Air Force Housing Board. My dad rents it out. He's very very liberal, I mean he once got two of his office colleagues married and one of them was a Christian & other a Hindu and there was severe resistance from both families and other employees told him to stay away from that mess, but still he went ahead.

So about the flat. My dad rented it out to this single working girl. She had a job, paid the rent.

They have housing board meeting every 3 months, all flat owners usually attend.

First housing board meeting, one tenant said she plays music too loud. So my dad told her to keep it down. No hassles.

Second housing board meeting, some tenants said she parties all night long on the weekend. So my dad said, she is young, what do you expect her to do, go to katha kalakshebam ? Again he told her to keep it down. No hassles.

Third housing board meeting, it became bit serious. There was some specific complaint. One tenant claimed to have proof and photograph. It was all huddled and hush-hush. I asked my dad what was the issue and I remember he told me I was too young to understand. They called the girl in for questioning. But the end result is that the girl was evicted.

All this was roughly four years ago. Recently I accompanied him to that flat. Now it is rented by a single guy, IT chap, pays the rent regularly. So I asked my dad what was the issue with that girl we used to rent it out to. He told me I thought you must have forgotten that. Then he tried to change topic. So I said why are you dodging, what was the problem ? So he said ok, you are old enough to understand, I will tell you. She was going out with another person. So I said what is wrong with that ? So he said, no, no, you are not understanding, another girl.

Back in '98 I was renting an apartment in NYC and the apartment broker I was working told me to stay away from private landlords, she only deals with management companies. She was an American girl (non-desi) who had a few years before, rented an apartment in a private house owned by a desi family. She said that she had friends over, boyfriends stay over, a lot of guy friends who would come visit, and she said the desi landlord told her to leave because they didnt' want her running a brothel in their house, too many guys coming and going and it made THEM look bad. I think the main point is the mindset of desi's when it comes to single women. That's what this whole thread has been about.

So he said, no, no, you are not understanding, another girl.

Heh! Now that's a story.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Tambram, I believe that you are just a cryogenically revived Ted Williams. nobody does left field better than you :)

Damn, how do people figure out someone is lesbian especially if the women want to hide it. More so in India where we don't have as much of a butch culture. I had a roommate here who was lesbian but she was not the butch kind, and it was only 4 months later when she told me that I realized she was lesbian.

Tambram,
That was an anecdote that was excellently told! Characters, setting, build-up, climax!

Ardy,

My "gaydar" is absolutely on the fritz.I can never tell and once had a mini-crush for a month ( I 'm married - not dead!) on a male office-mate who turned out to be gay .Everyone knew except me !

As MoorNam alluded to, renting out property in India is VERY risky, and will often end up biting you in the butt. And, as he said, it is totally unorganised, so market forces as well as the personal whims and biases of the landlord will always be the deciding factors. One can gripe and complain, but until the culture changes (happening but it will take another 20 years for that to percolate into the landlord mentality) and until the stucture of renting changes, nothing will change. My family owns some property in India, we did consider renting it out at one time, but finally decided against it...we'd rather it sit empty and still be there for us when we want to use it or sell it, rather than have some jerk tenant who we can never get rid of. The horror story that Samir (#290) described is all too common.

can never tell and once had a mini-crush for a month ( I 'm married - not dead!) on a male office-mate who turned out to be gay .

Well, she was pretty cute but thankfully in this case I was seeing someone at that time and did not try to extract any cohabitation benefits there.

I...once had a mini-crush for a month ( I 'm married - not dead!) on a male office-mate

Runa, first wrestling apsaras, now this?! Are you coming to any meet-ups in the near future? Just kidding (no I'm not).

Amitabh,
Yes I am a bad,bad girl!
As for meetups - I am waiting for the San Francisco one to materialize !

As for meetups - I am waiting for the San Francisco one to materialize !

Living in San Francisco, and your gaydar is on the fritz? That's just not on, Runa!

We need a friggin south east meetup!

there are bars in calcutta where women unaccompanied by men are not allowed. my cousin once got into an argument with one establishment and decided to write a letter to the management (while the waiters snickered and watched her) and was evetually told that it was a security issue. they did not for a moment doubt that she was a moral, upright whiskey drinker but that the male patrons could get the wrong idea and bother her. who would protect her then, they asked. thus to minimize 'trouble' they did not allow unaccompanied women. i am just guessing that that may approximatley be why single women are not welcome to rent.

" thus to minimize 'trouble' they did not allow unaccompanied women. "

Yes, it's the typical 'look, we don't want any trouble here' syndrome ... even the remotely liberal landlords might often have the 'i'm ok with this, but other ppl might be uncomfortable with it, therefore its best not to allow you here' reasoning... the same way a daughter would be told not to do something because 'what will others think' ?

What are the origins for the 'What will others think?' mentality in India, I often wonder. Does everything revolve around suitability for arranged marriage ?

#320 Ardy Its actually very simple. See atleast in South India we don't have much AC culture because in winters temperature is quite moderate. In Delhi I have seen many flats with AC, but not once in south, though office buildings some will have AC. So because people don't have AC, it gets very crummy and humid so we have colorful cloth curtains in all houses, and free airflow. Many times you can see inside people's houses even if you are not intentionally peeking. In my schooldays (1980s) my neighbor had gotten newly married. While playing near his house, I have seen him through the window trying to make love to his wife. They had bought one nice indoor wooden swing. I don't know what you people call swing here in USA. In India swing means you have wooden plank and iron cables holding it up in air. So his wife was sitting on plank and he was slowly pushing it and sometimes he would hug her from behind and say some lovey-dovey things. I remember I actually went and told my mother that the neighbor and his wife are playing on the swing and doing love and she said, they are newly married, you should not see all that.

So I think that girl must have been spotted doing something with another girl through the window. I don't know exactly what she must have done, I don't have any lesbian friends so far. In Air Force flats all windows are at exactly same level, so under ideal circumstances ie. if all windows are open, or if it is unusually windy and all curtains are fluttering high, you can see through dozens of flats on both sides. But cityside is still better than TN villages. In my village, all roofs are abutting each other, so if you are a robber, you can actually get on my roof and from there go to neighbor's roof & next neighbor, next neighbor, until you are actually out of the whole village just by jumping from roof to roof. Absolutely no privacy.

randomizer #329 -- there is a difference however between 'What will others think' syndrome and 'What might others do' fact of urban living. Is it actually less safe for a woman to be rent an apartment by herslef in a large Indian metropolis -- compared to say, well America?

What are the origins for the 'What will others think?' mentality in India, I often wonder. Does everything revolve around suitability for arranged marriage ?

not necessarily. it's not just about the individual's prospects of marriage - i think it's the mentality that anything an individual does always reflects on their family - their image, their background, the values the family has taught the individual. in that sense, families wouldn't want their children - or anyody else in the family - to do something that might infer some shortcoming in the family's respectability itself.

@ak 332 -

You are right, I forgot about the 'reflection on family' part of it. So I think basically all this must have arisen from the 'joint family' culture in India ... It is sad that 'strong family values', which is such a good thing, can have such an ugly side effect to it.

I think it's going to continue to be like this until our generation comes to power. We are the ones who can truly change India. I think now the thinking is that they want their society to be "clean" and to avoid "dirtiness" and relationships with the opposite sex are considered "dirty". In tamil they use the word "asingyum".

how do people figure out someone is lesbian especially if the women want to hide it.

Do they have a large number of CDs of Sarah McLachlan and Melissa Etheridge? Case closed.

I think it's going to continue to be like this until our generation comes to power. We are the ones who can truly change India.

Our generation sits outside India and snarks on blogs :)

Obviously, that previous statement wasn't fair to everybody, and I didn't mean to touch a raw nerve (in case I upset somebody).

"It is sad that 'strong family values', which is such a good thing, can have such an ugly side effect to it."

Culture is like an ecosystem. It is a rich matrix of equal and opposite forces that keep the whole in balance. While some aspects of the Indian culture can be clearly lobotomized without affecting the whole, some values will not change without causing a ripple effect throughout the system and essentially changing the culture forever. But cultures are evolutionary by nature, and controlling their destiny is like putting the finger in the dyke. Enjoy the new India, and leave the reminiscing to us old fogeys.

I cannot believe 200 comments have popped up over the course of the day.

I think the conversation around renting has two different underlying issues that may or may not interact with each other:

1. Property rights and the market itself, as per MoorNam's analysis
2. Gender discrimination

And the two operate together. I honestly feel it would be naive to think that a more functional system of property rights would mitigate risk vis-a-vis renting to single women or whatnot. I also think it is ridiculous to think that the primary risk factor landlords are assessing when renting to single women is whether they'll be murdered or raped. The issue is that landlords are making judgments on what they believe is appropriate or inappropriate behavior and are projecting their stereotypes, etc., onto the single woman. Whether that is by assuming she is "sluttier" or a higher risk, it doesn't matter. I can't see how this would be resolved without housing discrimination laws comparable to what we see in other countries. I know that the U.S. operates culturally and legally in a different way than India, but you can't overcome someone's personal prejudices by fixing the underlying regulations in property law. You also aren't going to help single women find housing that offers them a degree of freedom in their lifestyles unless you start challenging ideas of what kinds of behavior are considered acceptable for women, in general. I hear MoorNam's point, but I think we do ourselves a disservice to think that is the end all be all in the analysis.

Is it possible that at least in some instances landlord's probing in the interests of protecting their property has been confused with plain ole misogyny? ( Again : not in all cases , there are always the busy body types)

Completely unrelated:

Am a total region traitor for saying this but south indian food is so much better than north indian

Do they have a large number of CDs of Sarah McLachlan and Melissa Etheridge? Case closed.

Well said, Floridian! People always yearn for the days of yore, and are often aggressive about restoring some notion of purity or correctness to society, whereas these struggles and changes are an inherent part of human social growth.

controlling their destiny is like putting the finger in the dyke.

Are you for or against lesbianism?

I'm kidding, this is hardly sufficient for the causal link.

What, they all have to watch Xena too?

My favorite tome on culture - T.S. Eliot's "Notes Towards The Definition of Culture." And he was no sociologist or anthropologist, just a Renaissance Man who understood the world better than most experts.

Eliot is GOD. Period.

#340 " controlling their destiny is like putting the finger in the dyke.
Are you for or against lesbianism?"

Just a Freudian slip thanks to your comment #335. Hey Rahul, I enjoy your witty comments. You make SM worth it.

While some aspects of the Indian culture can be clearly lobotomized without affecting the whole, some values will not change without causing a ripple effect throughout the system and essentially changing the culture forever. But cultures are evolutionary by nature

very true. what's interesting is that each era/generation tries, to some extent, to prevent this change, oftentimes forgetting that the values they hold as traditional are not necessarily so traditional. on that note, i also liked benedict anderson's 'imagined communities' for some insight into how (nationalistically) constructed certain cultural aspects are.

Geez. I go to work and come home and there are 300+ comments. I need another monkey assistant.

Floridian, that was actually quite poetic. Thanks :)

Eliot is GOD. Period.

Abhi, I know. My eyes went X_X trying to get through this thread.

Try to beat "I have measured out my life with coffee spoons". GOD, I tell you.

X_X: is the middle a blank (insert smiley for wickedly cocked eyebrow)?

Hey Rahul, I enjoy your witty comments. You make SM worth it.

Thanks, Floridian. I guess I should make like a young 'un and now say, "You're cool too!" :P

I'm not dogging Eliot's work, but not sure I would put him on the level of GOD. Maybe I am kind of a crappy person on this since he's also not my favorite poet (blasphemy!).

X_X is read vertically instead of horizontally. So the X's are eyes (kind of looks like being dead, yes?) and the _ is a straight mouth. x_x

Of course, I have to work hard to ignore Eliot's anti-semitism while admiring his genius :( Who is your favorite poet?

Were Rahul and I the only people who watched the video, dammit? What's more important, female renters' rights in Delhi, or a video game where you get to touch someone's happy-no-no place for points?! Priorities, people! PRIORITIES!

i sort of breezed through the video (and found it very odd that she seemed to have a hard time, at least initially, in her oral presentation. but i'll chalk it up to some throat irritation). but is level three the end-goal? salil, it didn't even reach all the important happy-no-no places!

Eliot is GOD. Period.

YES !!

( and followed closely by Yeats)

Eliot is GOD. Period.

Of course, I have to work hard to ignore Eliot's anti-semitism while admiring his genius.

How odd
of God
to choose
the jews.

Abhi

I need another monkey assistant.

How many do you have now, Abhi? :)

Check out these monkey forebears at NASA. The NASA monkey program may have reached its, er, apogee, with Sam, who went on a Mercury mission in 1959. And as he was a Rhesus monkey, like many of his predecessors in space - I would guess he was born in India. (India was the largest exporter of Rhesus monkeys at the time.)

Who is your favorite poet?

Check out these monkey forebears at NASA. The NASA monkey program may have reached its, er, apogee, with Sam, who went on a Mercury mission in 1959.

When we created Sepia Mutiny we got our inspiration for employing monkeys because of the beneficial effect they had on the space program.

Eliot is GOD. Period.

YES !!

( and followed closely by Yeats)

Eliot and Yeats are for pussies. This here is a real poet.

P.S - I wish there was a charge code I could use for SM and spend more time on fun threads like these at work. Sigh!

Oooo, overall, or by era, or by literary movement?

Overall is what I was asking. But feel free to break it down how you like.

This (Toby Keith) here is a real poet.

You're right. Prufrock's pondering over peaches hardly compares to the poetry of
Cause we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way

Mahmoud Darwish (for overall), in a heartbeat.

When we created Sepia Mutiny we got our inspiration for employing monkeys because of the beneficial effect they had on the space program.

Mahmoud Darwish (for overall), in a heartbeat.

Haven't read him at all, unfortunately. I haven't read many non-native English poets actually. Care to suggest a few?

or a video game where you get to touch someone's happy-no-no place for points?!

Who cares about points when everyone's a winner?

Speaking of what girls who live alone or with parents get up to, how do you supposed Aishwarya Rai (Ms "I live with my parents and I'm proud") carried on with her Sallu/Vivek, etc? On location? At their place?

TamBram, great anecdote! In a way gay men and women living together are somewhat more protected than straight couples if they are careful not to show affection in public - people are used to friends living together and I almost think you'd face less trouble renting that way in a large, anonymity-guarding city in India than in the US.

I haven't read many non-native English poets actually. Care to suggest a few?

2. Any of Nizar Qabbani's anthologies. He does mostly love poetry and is a big T&A guy. The only downside is that there aren't very many good translations of his poems, in my opinion.

I also like Czeslaw Milosz, but maybe that's the establishment in me talking :) He is, of course, not an Arab poet, but he also does some interesting translations with Robert Hass.

For multilingual "political poetry" from the U.S., I really like Martin Espada's stuff, especially Alabanza (which is a "collected works" bit). His poetry is in English and Spanish, and is often mixed. Not every poem is amazing, but he does wonderful things with imagery. For single editions, I think Imagine the Angels of Bread and Rebellion is the Circle of a Lover's Hands.

I would begin there. I'll have to look through my bookshelf a little more to see if I have any other really interesting non-native or multilingual poets.

"my works"? I meant "my favorite works by him..."

In a way gay men and women living together are somewhat more protected than straight couples if they are careful not to show affection in public

Thanks, Camille!

No problem! Anything that gets folks reading poetry is good, in my book. I guess this is another justification for the Mutinous book club? :)

Camille - oh yeah, fallout is definitely worse. But there's also a lot of denial and don't-ask-don't-tell.

But there's also a lot of denial and don't-ask-don't-tell.

"I really like Beckham."
...
"But you're Indian!"

Interestingly enough, landlords here in Bermuda prefer it if you're single. Due to the huge demand for decent rentals, landlords are able to be picky & choosy about whom they want renting their space. Words like 'Professional non-smoking couple' are ones that landlords like to hear. A question we'd often get asked is if we're married. As Bermudians are very religious, there are some that refuse to rent to unmarried couples. Being betrothed does not count either. Of the 10 apartments we looked at when we first got here 2 years ago, only two ventured to ask about our marital status. Two that we can remember!

"how do you supposed Aishwarya Rai (Ms "I live with my parents and I'm proud") carried on with her Sallu/Vivek, etc?"

In the back of an autorickshaw....that's gangsta

Tambram

We have one flat in Air Force Housing Board.

In Air Force flats all windows are at exactly same level,

Hey Tambram, so far I thought your handle was meant to connote 'Tamil Brahmin'. But was I wrong, and does it refer instead to the Air Force Station at Tambaram?

@374 (chachaji)

I suppose Tambram is a Tam Brahm from Tambaram. Might offer Tamboolam on a TambaaLam to visitors.

Wow, Tambrams out of the woodwork everywhere! pingpong, what gothram are you? Myself, revathi nakshathram, naithruba kashyaba gothram.

So SM's like a cyber tharagar, I guess...the way you all are exchanging jaadagams around here...

Where is the vazhakkai bajji and degree kaapi from the ponnaathu kaara?

That's so 1976, Rahul. Nowadays, the paiyan has to sing for his sojji-bajji. I suggest you take some tips from Kamal...

Even before I click on your link, I will categorically state that I will not accept any peeing on my pattu veshti. Now, let me go see if that's what you were suggesting I need to put up with.

Myself, revathi nakshathram, naithruba kashyaba gothram.

Is it then understood that you must be Vadagalai, or not even?

BTW, 'Degree Kaapi' has made it to the wiki , and it's home is now on flickr.

And just totally btw (and if anyone cares) - my sister-in-law is 'TamBrahm'. :)

Oh hema, 'twas as I figured! Not the cuckoo again!

To the (apparently) 2 non Tambrams on this site, my apologies :) Kamal in his youth can't be beat. And the comments on the youtube link are HILARIOUS!

Check out the one by "seruppadi"!

seruppadi (2 weeks ago)
upload panradhu adhuthavan padatha, mayiru idhula enna vangaya kanda naadharin thayarippu'nu oru intro? enda dei!

Is it then understood that you must be Vadagalai, or not even?

Wrong sort of foreheard marking, I think...

Even before I click on your link, I will categorically state that I will not accept any peeing on my pattu veshti

What's a little pee in exchange for everlasting love, Kollywood style?

And the lyrics right before the moment of reckoning are priceless too. I'd never noticed! "Velli pani urugi en madiyil veezhndadhu pol irundhein" :)

Is it then understood that you must be Vadagalai, or not even?

chachaji, you've now officially exceeded the limits of my knowledge on this issue.

I'd never noticed! "Velli pani urugi en madiyil veezhndadhu pol irundhein" :)

Heh. Actually I never made the connection before. You've ruined that song for me forever! ;)

I have no idea if the connection was intended. But I'm glad to have made it.

in the sridevi-kamal link, is she already married to him? it looks like a prospective bride viewing to me. i ask because she touches his feet. where i come from (i don't know if its true for the entire north), unmarried women do not have to touch anyone's feet. i'm not sure why, but i think it's because unmarried women (this thread, after all, is related to south asian cultural perceptions of single young females) are presumed virgins ("kanya") and virgins have a special significance because they evoke certain forms of durga/other goddesses. therefore, it's disrespectful to the goddess to have her earthly counterparts touch people's feet. conversly, when you get married, you lose your purity/innocence etc by becoming more entangled in worldy matters, sexually active, and technically subservient.
now, this explanation could be entirely mistaken. is there a religion scholar in our midst? it'd be great if someone could explain this.

It is a "girl viewing" (literal translation). And while I haven't been part of, or privy to one of these, all that I've learned from my movie watching tells me that feet touching, and consumption of assorted delicacies is involved.

damn, you tambrams are a fast lot. i go away for a few hours, and you all have already produced the biodatas and moved onto the ponnu paakurathu.

I have no idea if the connection was intended. But I'm glad to have made it.

all that I've learned from my movie watching tells me that feet touching, and consumption of assorted delicacies is involved.

personally, i like to offer the prospective groom a choice of kaapi or g&t

vaat, no vodka gimlets? ponnu nadathaiye seriyaa illai.

vaat, no vodka gimlets? ponnu nadathaiye seriyaa illai.

ennattha panrathu? ellam vidhi - ellam avan saiyal. if i was destined for g&t and he for vodka gimlets, perhaps it was not meant to be. if he asked for a tequila shot, there might be something there.

Vodka gimlet amaivadhu ellam iraivan kodattha varam, as they say...

Nichayam aaharathukku minaadiye indha aatam aadaraanna... Sari, tequilaava kudichu tholaikkarein!

Sari, tequilaava kudichu tholaikkarein! Aana onnu, kalyaana medaila namma bombay sapphire thaan irukkanum. Sammathamunna, ippove soliidu. Illaati aala vittidu pa!

Adhukkkulla kalyaanama? Konjam thaan pazhagalaame? Konjum greygoose viddhaiya kaatarein unakku.

actually, enakku kalyaanathila nambikkaiye illai. so nee etha venaalum, eppo venaalum kaatalaam, daa - naa thayaar.

kaatitaa pochu. ellarum konjum kanna satha moodikkungo!

modhala nee unnodatha kaattu. apparama naan kaatturen. and quite frankly, i'm not sure there's much else to discuss here...

Eirkanave vera roomula kaatiteine! Evvala tharava venumnaalum kaatarein. Oru kashtamum illai.

And the problems of two little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this world, so before we have rotten eggs thrown at us, we should probably cut out out the Tamil!

athuvaa? avalavuthaana? naa verai ethavathu ethir paarthene. thirippi thiruppi kaattura seramam ethukku? antha oru thadavaiye pothum.

i agree. that was my last post any way. it's a bit tiring to think of these things in tamil, actually. my rather chaste exposure to tamil has prevented me from learning all the good stuff. damn.

Let's not even get started on tthe Teenage-Son- Who's Just Hit Puberty - the ones who make crude passes at single women-friends-of-their-mummmies - read: available 'female'

It's happened to me: amusing yet sickening. I've brought this to the attention of the mummy in two cases. Result? Mummy gives me the disgusted scowl and the cold shoulder. Because her son is the Vestal Virgin and we Indians don't talk about s*x! You see, Mummy's Sons reproduce and provide bonny grandkids merely by batting his virginal eyelashes at his arranged-bride. He is too pure for crudities like s&x!

Wonder how he came into this world? Immaculate conception?!!!

S8X?!! Doesn't exist! We're a billion in population, with a huge AIDS crisis but We Don't Do S7X.

We're Bloody Indians

I can totally vouch for the "women are women's worst enemies" sentiment

Don't worry, ak. I gots the good stuff. Meet me in the parking lot after school.

rahul, how about back at my place? it took me so long to find a place - i really need to live up to my reputation as a single woman...

Sure! As long as it's not in Air Force Colony.

outspoken, you talk about a lot of different things in your post. s&x, s*x, s8x, s7x. What are these?

And I am glad that woman's son broke the gender barrier to become a male vestal virgin. The glass floor has lasted too long!

( @ Rahul)

that word...you know...the one that Doesn't Exist in India. Tchee! Cthu! Vat it is this sex-fex you are talkkking? Dirty dirty Againt Indian Culture

"My Son Doesnot Know Vat is this sex-vex".

( Outspoken silently points to said sons' browsing history. Rather rife with porn links...)

i ask because she touches his feet. where i come from (i don't know if its true for the entire north), unmarried women do not have to touch anyone's feet.

If i was destined for g&t and he for vodka gimlets, perhaps it was not meant to be. if he asked for a tequila shot, there might be something there.

ak, will you kindly pass on your gimlet rejects to me? and i'll direct the g&t boys your way. how's that for brown girl solidarity? we should increase each other's potential mating pools. rest of the time, of course, we'll be good little radical feminists.

camille, thanks. what can i say? sometimes the beginnings and sustenance of a relationship lies in the less obvious issues. after my last prospective ordered a cosmopolitan, i knew things would never work. i'm not that kind of girl, you know?

portmanteau, lovely idea. but what of the tequila drinkers?

but what of the tequila drinkers?

And what happens with the worm after drinks are consumed?

but what of the tequila drinkers?

1. rawalsian principles. the girl who's single at the time gets tequila boy i.e. the welfare of the least well-off.

2. a lottery. karmic justice for all.

3. good ol' catfight. may the best woman win ;)

and rahul, i'm sure you're hiding your tequila connisseurship (in the event you're not, the tequila+worm thing is a tacky marketing gimmick. and as everyone knows, we desis are hard-nosed people who would never fall for such lame money-extracting ploys. paisa vasool etc.)

portmanteau, where did I say the worm was IN the tequila? But I can see your confusion. Cuz it's no worm.

Comments 375 upwards are some of the bestest ever. First time in my life I have actually bookmarked this SM page. Dei Rahul, ak & co. thanks da/dee.

we can share sometimes, can't we? but there might be a few alternate ways to settle this. 1. rawalsian principles. the girl who's single at the time gets tequila boy i.e. the welfare of the least well-off. 2. a lottery. karmic justice for all. 3. good ol' catfight. may the best woman win ;)

i vote for rawls, because in all honesty, i will be the single one more times than not. karmic justice - sounds nice and all, but what if there are no g&t prospects upon whom to fall back? catfight - yeah, i can totally take you. bring it on.

tambram, happy to oblige.

tambram, jamaai!

after my last prospective ordered a cosmopolitan, i knew things would never work.

Rawls seems most fair. portmanteau, I like your style, even if I have a really hard time spelling your name.

portmanteau, I like your style, even if I have a really hard time spelling your name.

gee thanks, milady, it's kind of you to notice. y'all deserve mad props too for your thoughtful and hilarious comments, good taste, and toleration of folks' conceits (such as hard to spell handles) :)

I do want to highlight one of portmanteau's solutions that I believe was not given adequate attention.

we can share sometimes, can't we?

Can't we all just get along?

This posting just about sums up most of my renting experiences since the early 1990s in India.

Totally.

But, as a non-Indian woman, and also as a non-Indian citizen, my experience was that most of my landlords (now that I think about it - all of them), did try to take on a kind of "parental" and "protective" role towards me, maybe not as much as they would if I was an Indian female citizen, but probably close to it.

This was something I failed to navigate properly. When I first resided there, I actually welcomed that, because I felt as a foreigner it would be beneficial for me to have some sort of "protective unit", support system, people who have my back. What happened though is that when I responded favorably to their protectionism, I did not know that that would be opening a Pandora's box of intrusion into my personal life, even my daily life.

After a few years of "too close for comfort" experiences, I swang the opposite way and sent out "I'm-independent-don't-get-close-vibes" which managed to give me more space but at the same time alienate myself.

After a few years of that I struck as close to a balance as I could.

Looking back I made alot of mistakes, but I didn't know what I was doing really because I had never had such kinds of experiences in my life before and there was no one who was able to guide me on these practical matters. I had to figure out how to deal with this all on my own.

I read that and shuddered. And, for anyone who thinks it is because I think it is "unmanly" to order a Cosmo, I also disapprove of its consumption among women. ;)

i agree. i was into cosmos towards the end of my college years (and only because 'segueway sam' from conan was drinking one) but literally was forced to choose another drink in some unforeseen circumstances. i chose g&t and i haven't been happier. though, these days my dad is trying to push me towards the whiskey/scotch genre, but i'm a bit resistant. but sometimes i feel guilty - isn't it just snobby to evaluate people based on their drink choices?

but sometimes i feel guilty - isn't it just snobby to evaluate people based on their drink choices?

I have lived alone in India for years in villages and in metros in rented rooms and houses. I have never felt any kind of discrimination. Over protectiveness, yes! Because it is Indian tendency to assume the role of a host and treat tenents like your own family...I loved it and would take it any day compared to coldness and lack of human interaction here in US. The journalist who finds this newsworthy must take off her western glasses. Christian *Science* monitor!!!!!!

what would i get out of spending a boat load of money to bring some chick to the US if i already have a wife? guys looking for harems?

i guess you could be married, go to india. sit through the ceremony. b*ng the grl, leave the country, return to family life.

The dowry he will get from simply marrying her is WHOLE SHIP LOADS more than the tiny boat load he had to spend.