Hear, hear.

this is really not worth of a nation that calls itself world's largest democracy and
also this reminds me of a review of a book that i posted sometime back on the news tab
Bare Branches
Can poverty drive somebody to such low depths ?

A N N A, I cannot agree with you more that this story is extremely saddening. The problem I have is what I should make with individual incidents like this as it will just lead to the cacophony of "All Indians are not evil" and "I love my daughter", and nobody is left any the wiser. I know that you have a day job and it is difficult for you, and maybe it is the scientist in me, but I feel like more statistics on the prevalence or incidence, or context will help me understand these behaviors better.

In any case, here are a few relevant thought provoking articles, which I've read in the past.

1. 100 million missing women by Amartya Sen, in the New York Review of Books.
2. Emily Oster's alternative explanation for about half of them.
3. Skewed sex ratios in India.
4. A fourth article which, I think, covers research by an Indian and a Canadian doctor, which I'm unable to find right now.

Rahul, thanks for being so understanding about my time constraints-- I'm grateful you were able to provide such relevant links. Anyone else with more information, please contribute similarly.

My inner asshole says that more statistics or context aren't necessary-- we've just spent far too long seeing women as a burden, not a blessing. And that's not just a desi sin. :(

Going to repeat what I wrote on the other thread;

In order for this to happen, that region of the world needs to rethink it's ideas about women in general - you know, the ideas that a woman is almost useless without a man by her side and her very personhood is defined by the men (of lack thereof) in her life.

Look, every culture/nation/religion/whatever has issues. Nothing or no one is all good or all bad. Yet, can we come to the conclusion that some issues are specific to some cultures/nations/religions more than others?

America has issues with women, no doubt. But we have had decades of hardcore feminist brow-beating to rid us of alot of things. Things have improved alot in terms of attitudes in just the past 50 years.

Whether or not I'm a man or woman or whether I'm married or have a man by my side is not really an issue here for anything in my life, from renting an apartment to getting the ceremonies done for my parents when they die. It is in India. Point blank.

And just see, even the death of this baby girl was about a man --- her future husband which her grand-dad did not think he could afford to get her!

Let's not be in denial. There is an underlying issue here, a thread that weaves together the garland of dowry, dowry-deaths, widow non-remarriage, infant gynocide, sex-selective abortions, and hell, even apartment rentals.

Wake up and smell the kappi.

Going to repeat what I wrote on the other thread;

...which I linked to, at the top of my final paragraph. You're right.

This sadness goes back to a central point that Gandhi struggled to convey...there are many Indias. There is an India that is pure feudal caste hierarchy..the India of Bandit Queen. This is an India that Shivaji would recognize if he were to come back in 2007. There is an India of supermodels, MTV, disposable incomes, raves, pre-marital sex; an India where elephants cross the road in front of Bentleys.

There is an India that would bury a 2 year old alive rather than feed her.

Is it even a possible dream to have common ground, common morals, a common humanity?

I am saddened by this article and by the fact that it no longer really phases me but I am very proud of your requirements for the comments. This is a worldwide problem despite the fact that this particular incident takes place in the sub continent. We should be outraged and I hope many are motivated to do more than they have in the past both in their homes and outside of it to make women be more than the bodies that nations and families are inscribed upon.

Huh,
More "All Indians are male chauvinists" BS from the American media. Lets see I guess women are highly valued in the US right,for Crappy Nonsense Network to pontificate to us?
Wrong,Here are examples of anti-women chauvinism and violence in the US

1) http://www.endabuse.org/resources/facts/
2) http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

The first website cites a figure of 3 million women in the US per year and that 31 percent of married women in the US experience domestic violence at some point in their lives. Please, get over this BS of Indians dont value their women blah..blah BS.
And for extreme examples of anti-female child violence (i...e) CNN-worthy news in the US

1)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Wiley
2)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadine_Lockwood

And here is more on the second case from the CNN itself
http://www.cnn.com/US/9609/09/starved.girl/

So,what conclusions do we draw now,that the US is a violent misogynistic society that treats women like $hit? Of course not,then why do the same for India? Dont get carried away by sensationalism

This is a worldwide problem despite the fact that this particular incident takes place in the sub continent

Worldwide perhaps, but amongst which groups?

Over and over again - I have had this conversation with people around me.

I really think - I do - India needs to spend a lot of money - and I do mean a lot - on EDUCATION.

I know it seems like a simplistic solution but getting education to your next generation will resolve a lot of problems. Educating the mothers - everyone knows this - will enable educating the kids.

It is also a way of removing the stigma (somewhat) attached with being a woman or a homosexual (I know, nothing to do with this topic but gets me everytime...) or a lower caste person.

You educate - you change the minds of people and removing the stigma attached with the above mentioned catagories. If you go around rural areas in India - you will be amazed to the difference in attitude women have about their daugthers. And it stems from what kind of education, if any, they have recieved (BTW - this is personal observation, I do not have studies to prove it and I understand that there maybe other factors at play).

Really, it pisses me off that in 2007 someone would think girls are burdens. But then again, there are always that few fanatics who just dont get it (which I'm not suggesting is the problem here)

I'm the eldest grandchild of my father's immediate family, and the eldest girl on my mother's side. My mother's parents were in India when I was born. Although I have a very close relationship with my father's parents *now*, my mother did tell me last year about how when I was born, my grandmother couldn't hide the tears in her eyes that came naturally because the first grandchild wasn't a boy, like she'd hoped for.

Thank you for posting the story ANNA - I felt the same way when I read it. It's a baby. The grandfather didn't even give the baby a chance. He didn't say he couldn't provide the child a good life, or that he couldn't bear to raise his grandchild in today's world. Neither would excuse his behavior, but the motivation would at least still be the best interest in his eyes for the child. No - he felt that *he* would be better off if he simply buried alive his grandchild. It's disgusting.

Every time someone (sometimes me) reprimands my 15-year old daughter for her highly "spirited" personality, I can't help but think that she was born on the streets of Kolkata (one can only guess), spared infanticide, and turned over to an orphanage at the tender age of 5 days.

Just look at her now!

My comment may not shed any more light on your post, ANNA, but it is surely inspired by it.

So,what conclusions do we draw now,that the US is a violent misogynistic society that treats women like $hit? Of course not,then why do the same for India? Dont get carried away by sensationalism

One could conclude that, why not?

Just like I'm going to conclude that the grandfather's own statement regarding why he did this reflects on the values (or lack thereof) in his culture, conclusions can similarly be drawn regarding domestic violence in the US. One would have to trace the reasons and whys of such DV - what belief system, if any, gives rise to it. Just like I trace the reasons and whys of what led this grandfather to do this to his grand-baby --- marriage is neccessary for girl in his culture. Without husband in her life, she will be suspect and lead a difficult, perhaps useless existence.

When crimes are committed, the mind-set and cultural belief systems of the criminals are usually always explored.

I think the issue not whether one nation treats its women better than some other nation. The issue is what are socio-economic causes that give rise to such aberrations in India and what should the "liberated" generation do so to reduce the so called "Bandit-Queen/Shivaji" kind of regions of India or in any nation.

One of my aunts has 3 beautiful, intelligent, and athletic daughters. The eldest has just graduated high school, and the youngest is 11 years old. People still won't stop asking my aunt and uncle when they're going to have a son and make their family "complete".

It is heartrending. More so because I still see this happening in my family. Education does not seem to make much of a difference. I wince each time I hear my mom or elders in the family express regret over the birth of a girl child in the family. They tell it right to my face. I wince and I bear it. I used to fight but over time my resistance has flagged and I take it in my stride. I now have a fierce motivation to adopt a girl child or children.

I always have had strong emotions reading about things like these and today your piece moved me to tears again.

Thanks Anna.

Ah, I found the references to the study I was looking for in 4:

10 million lost female births with very revealing data about the probability of a girl child conditioned on the sex of existing elder kids. There has been some dispute about this study, but I think most of it is about whether the situation has improved since the Indian Supreme Court banned sex selection in 2001. Probably the most depressing part of this particular study that I recall, which is not mentioned in the articles I link here (at least in my quick scan) is that the ratio gets more biased as the education of the mother increases! A little bit of counterpoint to Viki #11.

I think the issue not whether one nation treats its women better than some other nation. The issue is what are socio-economic causes that give rise to such aberrations in India and what should the "liberated" generation do so to reduce the so called "Bandit-Queen/Shivaji" kind of regions of India or in any nation.

Nope. It was because she was a girl and the grand-dad felt he could not afford her dowry. Now, if she had been a boy would he have done the same thing? Nope. Because dowry is not neccessary for grooms, and besides, when he gets old enough he can work to contribute financially to the family, instead of being married off at a high cost and sent to live and toil in the home of in-laws.

Like I said before, weeds need to be completely uprooted.

That means these attitudes about women, their place on the food chain, and marriage, need to be completely killed, poured acid upon, until they wither up and die forever. Poverty is the secondary issue here. The first is that she was a girl born into a poor family. When I start hearing about baby Indian boys being dealt with the same way, then I might change my mind on this issue. Till then, it's a gender issue.

I come from a family of all males and being a guy myself I can said that all i want are daughters. Girls in my family are cherished and adored in my family like they should be in all families.

And the amazing thing about dowry is that not only does the bride have to provide money to her in-laws, after she gets married she goes to their house to work as their maid - unpaid! So it's really like she is paying them to be their maid!

Now tell me, have you ever heard of someone paying their employer to be able to work?

The system makes no sense whatsoever.

Although there have been very interesting studies that show that couples with girl children are more likely to divorce than couples with boy children even in the U.S (by 5% in the U.S. to 25% in Vietnam). There are several theories as to why this might be the case.

Alright, I am done with the information overload. Alright, maybe it isn't overload, because nobody seems to be reading them anyway :)

"because nobody seems to be reading them anyway .."

No worries man..the slate article was very interesting...it'll churn round in my head for quite a while

The issue is what are socio-economic causes that give rise to such aberrations in India and what should the "liberated" generation do so to reduce the so called "Bandit-Queen/Shivaji" kind of regions of India or in any nation.

poverty makes people do desperate things. and when worth is assigned to gender, it leads to devastating and heartbreaking outcomes. it's sad that this grandfather saw his granddaughter as just another burden because she was a 'girl'. if she was a boy, perhaps she would have been spared in hopes of bringing in a dowry when he gets older and keeping the family afloat. modern india has not spread her wings to all the corners of her countryside. there are plenty of rural, traditional villagers like this that still adhere to the old rules. i'ts even further scary to think that this is not the first time that this has happened...or the last.

i agree, india needs to spend money on education and offering a way up for these people, because government food and aid assistance programs can only do so much.

my family is originally from kerala and i am always marveling at the literacy programs and incentive programs they have for ALL children, regardless of caste. of course there is poverty in kerala but it's not as staggering as northern parts of india i've noticed. also, women have many more rights, if not equal, in everything from inheriting property to attending school. i know, that the message i see being pushed across in kerala is that if you dont' do well in school or have some sort of career, you're not as attractive of a marriage prospect, male or female, and if you're female, not even if you know how to make sambar or recite Tagore. this was the generation my mother came from, and perhaps one of the reasons she did become a registered nurse in the Indian military, not get married until she was 28, and had no clue to make sambar until after marriage.

We're reading them, man.

I'm not sure I have anything to add here, except that I can't imagine the...the...what is the right word for it? there isn't one, so I'm making one up...stupignorrorocity...that would allow someone to do something like this.

If there should be hate-crime laws for people who do things out of bigotry, what should there be for people who commit atrocities out of a combination of poverty, ignorance, stupidity, and gender bias?

Gah, this is sick. I want to shake the idiot moron. It's a baby! It's a BABY! Aargh.

I disagree. I think socioeconomics (sometimes) plays a factor, but as Prabha mentioned, son-preference seems to span socioeconomic and education groups... and sadly, we see this replicated in the U.S. as well. There's a great master's thesis that came out last year on son-preference among northies in California; I wish it were online. =/

Yep, Camille, you are correct.

Brij on this issue and Amrita on the widow issue both assert poverty for the reason.

Then we would be seeing poor people world wide killing their baby girls, in-laws demanding dowry and not allowing widows to remarry at the same rate as is going on India, which we don't. So then we have to look at the cultural/religious factors that influence people's belief systems over there and draw a conclusion. Like I said, all cultures have their issues, but not all of the issues are the same, at the same period in time. This is clearly a gender issue primarily, and any other factor like economics is secondary.

Now, take a place like USA. Yes, it also has gender issues. But those gender issues are different than the above mentioned ones (not saying any better), and they take different forms, based on the cultural influences of the people. But dowry, dowry deaths and widow-non-remarriage are not amongst those issues.

So when we are talking about different cultures, different issues and belief systems come up. It's not all the same everywhere.

To reiterate what has been said before, for all the people going on about the glory of urban India, it is NOT JUST ABOUT SOCIO-ECONOMICS. IT IS AN INGRAINED SOCIETAL PREFERENCE. Worldwide, although more pronounced in India, China, and swaths of South or South-East Asia.

IT IS AN INGRAINED SOCIETAL PREFERENCE. Worldwide, although more pronounced in India, China, and swaths of South or South-East Asia.

I've never come across this so-called "ingrained" wide-spread societal preference outside of the regions you listed above.

Have you come across it in USA? Canada? UK? Germany? Sweden? Switzerland? Holland? Denmark? France? Belgium? Where?

"I disagree. I think socioeconomics (sometimes) plays a factor, but as Prabha mentioned, son-preference seems to |span socioeconomic and education groups"

Son-preference over girls is a bad thing and that has to be changed. Lets assume that this mental bias exists equally among the educated, socio-economically well off people as in uneducated/poorly educated, poor folks before anybody had a child.
Now what does the statistics say - Will the former indulge in female infanticide ( as in the news article ) more than the latter ?
I would be surprised if the statistic say that. I would be less surprised if it is the latter group which indulges in such morally reprehensible acts more than the former. This is not because that the first group is less of culprit than the second group in having that bias in the first place......

Widow Power, cf. comment #22.

On my way to the Charlotte airport tonight, I was listening to NPR, and as I was parking my car in the garage, I sat for a while. There was a lady talking about how food-for-hunger programs were a "blunt force" instrument for combatting child hunger, and that a far better tool for people in dire straits was...cash.

My own visceral reaction was, "no way." Something in me rebelled at the notion of just donating cash to poor people. Maybe a lifetime of being panhandled by people who'd take my money and spend it on a fix or a bottle of Thunderbird? Probably.

After some careful thought, I think I agree. Money is a good thing. As the lady pointed out, it gives people choice. Trust them to be smart enough to buy the right food. Or the tools to get what they need.

Now I'm flooded with questions. Is cash only useful for fighting hunger? At what point does a cash donation become dangerous or counterproductive, so people start looking after superficial needs and desires rather than their own dire straits? And why? Is it because somehow your own straits never seem so dire? Or do they sometimes seem so dire that nothing can be done to fix them, so you might as well have some fun, or feel better for a while? What's the specific cultural angle? Would a program that gave cash to poor people work in India? In the US?

I'm thinking about this in the context of a poor farmer who thinks it's a valid choice to bury his grand-daughter alive. Can this be fought? How? Really...how? Education? But...you can't educate a guy who's already past his schooling years and thinks this way. Not his whole clade. Maybe just him, sure. But everyone like him? And their families?

I think I need sleep. My brain can't quite wrap itself around this.

Salil's comment makes me ask: Have people here read Sachs' "The End of Poverty"? Is it worth reading?

Vile. How can someone do this to a baby???

Sick. I'm really upset right now.

Now what does the statistics say - Will the former indulge in female infanticide ( as in the news article ) more than the latter ?

Salil, the argument for cash instead of in-kind help has also been echoed throughout Latin America.

The baby, who had apparently never been fed, was discovered by a farmer near a village some 150km south of Hyderabad.

Lets assume that this mental bias exists equally among the educated, socio-economically well off people as in uneducated/poorly educated, poor folks before anybody had a child. Now what does the statistics say - Will the former indulge in female infanticide ( as in the news article ) more than the latter ?

I don't know how much has been done by way of studying this, but I would not be surprised if the statistics are similar.

I strongly recall that the study that I reference in my comment #18 actually showed that educated women were more likely to abort a female foetus than less educated women. I haven't read the technical Lancet article, so somebody here might want to in case it has a more nuanced and detailed picture.

Salil's comment makes me ask: Have people here read Sachs' "The End of Poverty"? Is it worth reading?

I think William Easterly's Elusive Quest... and White Man's Burden... are more interesting and also better rooted in empirical evidence. The latter is considered to be relatively polemical, but if read in the context of his first work his chagrin is more understandable. Both are thought-provoking and sum up the debates in development economics literature nicely.

Btw since this thread deals with female foeticide - I have a question albeit slightly digressing from the main topic of the news article. everbody more or less unanimously agree that "female" foeticide based on gender bia/preference is bad. What then one has to say about gender neutral abortion ?

everbody more or less unanimously agree that "female" foeticide based on gender bia/preference is bad. What then one has to say about gender neutral abortion ?

Actually Camille you stole the post that I was leading into :) Now there is whole lot of bias and prejudices that exists in the world which manifests in such criminal acts as in the news article. Now as a first step how to deal with those criminal acts. If it is done as in the form of murder by any group, to an extent there is always a chance you will be caught. Now what will not be caught ( and which will perpretrate the evil ) are those acts of female foeticide that go unnoticed and done in sly by the poor and the rich, educated and the illiterate. What can those acts of female foeticide be ? Somebody earlier posted that even in US there are large case of female foeticide. Now how does it occur here when you have such excellent legal/police system. I think it is probably through some kind of abortion. Then how to deal with female foeticide first, technically and legally in any country?

We should note that societal moral codes, which rationalizes or condones such acts and traditions, are also the internal moral compasses of people.
Those of us who feel outraged never grew up in this milieu, our moral compasses were moulded in different environs.

Education does not change these moral compasses, it frequently strengthens them due to increased rationalization; criticizing female infanticide even amongst educated people is futile. Even intellect is no match for moral compasses.

Instead of focussing on educating children who are are already moulded in such environs (who would then grow up to be educated female infanticiders) we should focus on the moulding itself.
Social-Conservative theory of forcefeeding moral and values education is the only way.

Regarding abortion

Gender neutral abortions should be a legal option, though perhaps discouraged through education/awareness/alternatives.

Gender biased abortions can be stopped by making it illegal to reveal the gender of the child beforehand, and enforcing that law.

I'm sure it will be dimissed as NRI or ABCD uppityness, but let's all agree to vocally boycott weddings back in the desh where dowries are exchanged. This is certainly one of the contributing factors to this pathology.

Sorry that I took so long to join the discussion. I would not giving this thread enough respect if I commented from my phone.

I really think - I do - India needs to spend a lot of money - and I do mean a lot - on EDUCATION.

I have to agree with you on this one. And that is what I was telling my friend. Things like this seem to happen more with the "uneducated". Think about why Kerala does not find itself in the news for such atrocities.

Interestingly enough, my dad was telling me today afternoon about how in some North Eastern state, female infanticide has left people with no brides.

Besides education, the mindset needs to change. Dowry in certain sections of the country has changed from what it used to be, to a "I can afford this" and "This is my chance to show off my wealth" kind of situation.

As long as there are people who are willing to give dowry (no matter what the reason) there will always be people to receive it.

And all this will trickle down to what just happened.

I wish they had given her to me.

We should note that societal moral codes, which rationalizes or condones such acts and traditions, are also the internal moral compasses of people. Those of us who feel outraged never grew up in this milieu, our moral compasses were moulded in different environs.

Education does not change these moral compasses, it frequently strengthens them due to increased rationalization; criticizing female infanticide even amongst educated people is futile. Even intellect is no match for moral compasses.

Instead of focussing on educating children who are are already moulded in such environs (who would then grow up to be educated female infanticiders) we should focus on the moulding itself.
Social-Conservative theory of forcefeeding moral and values education is the only way.

Exactly!

This is what I was trying to get at in my pointing out of different cultures having different issues and the different forms that those issues take in those cultures. All are not the same.

Education does not eradicate the cultural impressions on the minds of the educated people neccessarily. Rather what tends to happen is that those educated people will now use their increased technology to further advance the very same mindsets -- as in using sonagrams and abortions as opposed to birthing a girl and then killing her.

So that's what I was getting at when I said weeds need to be destroyed

at the root.

Something very deep in that culture has to change.

I know people have mentioned education here as a solution to the problem of infanticide (and we have had several well-thought and well-supported rejoinders to the contrary. In her new book, Nussbaum hits the nail on the head when she brings to the kind of the education that is offered to Indian children (she makes this point to account for a different phenomenon entirely, but I think her insight works in this context too). It is not that the Indian educational system is without merit - it just seems that we leave out some crucial skills that leave the "moral compass" damaged/under-developed/under-nourished:

The educational culture of India used to contain progressive voices, such as that of the great Tagore, who emphasized that all the skills in the world were useless, even baneful, if not wielded by a cultivated imagination and refined critical faculties. Such voices have now been silenced by the sheer demand for profitability in the global market. Parents want their children to learn marketable skills....

Indeed, the desire for upward mobility/economic and social comfort (and who among us does not want it for ourselves?) combined with dire circumstances forces people to make reprehensible rationalizations. I can say without reservation that this person's deed was condemnable, but I have a nagging feeling that other people growing up and living in the same might have acted the same way. They may have chosen merciful means of killing, or wished that poor little girl dead; but the sad fact that she was unwelcome is undeniable. There are few solutions, but this article describes a pilor program in China about monetary and social incentives for parents of girl children in China. The long-term success of the program remains unclear.

Sidebar: a sociological study of Muslims in India by Zoya Hasan and Ritu Menon shows that Muslim women are better able to negotiate for resources and education for their daughters within the family. The reason: perceived economic discrimination and bleak employment for their brothers. Parents feel that if their son is not likely to gain all that much from his education, then why not take your chance on the daughter.
Related article:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2001/stories/20030117002408700.htm

It's hard to look at a little girl and not feel hurt, knowing that all of this goes on with so many like her. I think changing peoples attitudes requires a lot of communication. I mean really making a point to stop people when they remark on the "misfortune" of a female child, or when a female child is looked down upon for not living up to some disgusting "ideal" of beauty, or passivity and submissiveness. I've argued with so many, over what many think are trivialities, yet I much prefer being that pain in the ass, rather than to sit by and allow those things to be said unopposed in my presence. It's important to actually make your point in a way that the other person can appreciate, or I think at least try to. That's a small step, but really changing the economic opportunities for women and prosecuting these cases of abuse, and making people realize what a thing of pride it is to have a daughter are so important. I know there are people all over tackling these issues in those and various other ways. Much like these negative ideas about female children are passed along by reinforcing them through everyday conversation and action, I believe that the opposite can also be achieved by the same means (in addition to other very necessary methods, but at least everyone can do this much).

And that's not just a desi sin. :(

I can say from agonizing personal experience, it's very much a "sin" in latin communities too. You nailed it.

Even amongst those with lots of education, this mindset that "having boys is better" still exists though, so I'm not sure education is the cure.

Yesterday, some 'educated' Chilean auntie (who crashed our family picnic), was chiding my prego sister about "Why don't you know the baby's sex yet?", causing my blood to boil.

"They don't wanna know, because they don't care, ya asshole!"

Widow power - How do you propose to change the culture in India that is complicit in female infanticide ? This is a serious question - not a rhetorical one. Please dont say the government - coz the State is comprised of people who harbour the same medieval beliefs. I am quite keen to know some new thoughts.

Aminocentesis is illegal in India but that has not reduced gender based abortions. How does one prove that an abortion is gender neutral or gender based? I wonder how many know that abortion was made legal in India in 1971 via the Medical Termination of Pregnancy Act ie well before Roe v Wade. Incidentally it was never illegal before that either.

Floridian - We have been looking to adopt an abandoned desi girl. Was it a long drawn out process?

and as the man who single-handedly destroyed whole economies during his tenure in the World Bank/IMF, I have a hard time taking his argument seriously.

This is the reason I have not been motivated to read the book so far. The only thing that seems to have come through completely unscathed through Sachs' tenure is his supreme self-confidence (arrogance). "Why did Poland succeed? Because of me. Why then did Russia fail? Inspite of me. But hear what snake oil I now have to peddle for Africa!"

White Man's Burden... are more interesting and also better rooted in empirical evidence. The latter is considered to be relatively polemical

I hadn't considered White Man's Burden seriously, because I'd also heard that it was just a book long rant against Sachs (I exaggerate, of course), but your comment makes it seem more interesting.

Widow Power,

Just like I'm going to conclude that the grandfather's own statement regarding why he did this reflects on the values (or lack thereof) in his culture

HUH?! Look, this grandfather is an unstable person. The fact that any newspaper or media outlet is publishing his "reasons" and trying to make him look like a victim of his culture is an absurdity -- we don't let crazy people explain themselves because their explanations are worse than worthless -- they rot your brain if you listen to them try to excuse themselves of their actions. If culture were truly a problem, no Indian jury would convict him and the police wouldn't have even arrested him if so. If the Indian jury finds him innocent, then talk about the culture being bad because the jury is populated by (presumably) normal people. Don't try to quote an insane criminal who'll be spending life in prison as some sort of example of normal Indian culture. Don't try to write about him as if he's an Indian first and other things later, he's first and foremost an incarcerated and unstable person pending prosecution for attempted murder, that he's Indian is irrelevant. This horrible culture you speak of arrested him, will prosecute him, and given the slow-as-molasses backlog of court cases this insane grandpa is going to rot in jail. I hate when the actions of FELONS are used to paint a picture of culture - the Indian police, the Indian jury, the Indian farmer who rescued the girl, these are all people who hate that baby-killer as much as we do, and they -not- the baby-killer awaiting sentencing are representative of Indian culture.

Widow Power,

Just to follow up – when a crime against the Indian penal code is committed, the long arm of the law does catch up, even in India. Don't delude yourself into thinking that crimes against women and children are legal or acceptable in India. Like with an illiterate population, many people don't know how to ask for help from the law, but don't pretend that we blog-readers are privy to information the Indian police are unaware about. If -YOU- are aware of a specific crime in India by reading cnn or whatnot, it's obvious that the Indian police are aware and have already investigated it and if the perpetrator is found have made the arrest. This is true with illiterates in the U.S., yes, our mighty United States, where uneducated/illiterate women, many of whom are illegal immigrants, allow their boss to sexually abuse them because they are unaware how the legal system works.

This story is not newsworthy precisely because it's a SOLVED crime. The police apprehended the criminal, he confessed, case closed. If you want to pine over the horrors of Indian society, pick some UNSOLVED cases and try to make progress on it. It frustrates me to no end to see armchair moralists like you with 20/20 hindsight about how a crime -gasp- was committed. Can crime rates be lowered? Sure, it costs money. Can crime rates be eliminated? No. As India gets more money, it can tackle the issue of lower crime rates; for those crimes money cannot prevent, a good police force and justice system will at least hand down appropriate punishments. There ARE cases where the guilty have walked away scott free -- especially regarding drunk rich kids driving over paupers in the streets of India. Focus your attention on problems that need solving, not on solved ones.

They should bury the grandfather alive VANISHING style.

Pravin,

They should bury the grandfather alive VANISHING style.

The death penalty is allowed under by Indian courts, but the only method acceptable is hanging. That said, I don't believe in the death penalty when incarceration accomplishes the same end-result of 'never seeing or hearing him again'. Execution is unnecessary, and it's non-reversible if new evidence surfaces.

To widow power,

to echo both rahul and others, this is worldwide. the constant dominance and preference for male children and the existence of a patriarchal society cannot be ignored or dismissed. (if you need a compelling "euro" culture example think of marriage for a second as something that always has been an expression of women as property given from father to man and the legal processes/descriptions used)

To those who suggested education- it works. we're not talking about learning how to be a cpa, we're talking about learning how to think critically about the society we live in and what it assigns worth to. its not necessarily how to learn economics but also how to think critically.

Revolution, anyone? I'm not kidding. As "commie" as this sounds, substantive shifts in how certain parts of Indian society views its girls and women can occur with mass upheaval. And you have to start with the women, with education - culturally-relevant education. I say that because many Indian women are complicit in female infanticide, although we'll never really know for sure (because I'm guessing that many women resist against it in their own minds, but are forced into doing it by their husbands and extended family). Even still, the aunts and grandmothers are complicit in garnering a campaign in favor of aborting the female child.

In addition to education and a televised revolution, legislation has to be enacted and enforced (insert laughter here, I know). I really don't buy the idea that laws and punishment do not deter anyone from doing what they want to do i.e. rape. Who knows how many American men, for example, do not rape women because they know there's a real chance they'll serve time for it? I highly doubt it is because of the cultural superiority of the American man or his deep respect for women - one look at Maxim magazine or any male-centric publication which treats women as sex objects and there's no doubt that to many men, women are still just a piece of meat to pulverize.

It's just really heartbreaking. It's been a heartbreaking couple of days. Sigh.

ANNA, thanks so much for bringing this story to light, it has to be said again and again. But I am going to have to slightly disagree with you on one thing - it DOES matter if "this makes us look bad" or not. I'm so not trying to defend those knee-jerk reactions against any sort of anecdote or trend covered by the Western press which is critical of Indian society; that is chauvinistic and dismissive, to say the least.

BUT - I am in favor of a reasoned approach to highly sensitive subjects like this. Only because in the face of such severity and cruelty like this story illustrates, I've seen countless Western feminists slam their fists down and shriek, "This is disgusting and vile and I DON'T CARE if this makes me seem racist or intolerant, it has to stop. We have to do something about this." I am strongly alarmed by no holds barred reactions like this because they often propose blanket solutions to very complex problems they are unknowledgeable about. A lot of these people just don't get that you cannot combat hate with hate, that you cannot "educate" women with culturally irrelevant models, that you cannot cast all men in that (usually) developing society as a complicit sexist pig, that you cannot assume that women in developing societies will welcome you into their arms as "sisters."

Or, in the extreme, that you cannot bomb the hell out of a society in the name of women's liberation.

I'm not saying this to be incendiary, but it is a fact that one rationalization employed in the bombing campaign against Afghanistan a few years ago was that it would free women from the shackles of oppression. Well, it certainly was certainly "liberating" in one regard - if by liberation you mean leaving thousand of men, women and children dead.

I guess what I am getting at is the interconnectedness of media representations, public opinion and policy. One CNN article isn't going to start a war, but these articles do affirm and re-affirm beliefs about India. And we do have to worry about how it makes us look - just look at some of the vile comments people left under the CNN article about widows.

To me, it's about being balanced and working on multiple fronts. The state of many widows in India and of many girls and women in India - millions of them - is something we have to approach with earnestness in whatever capacity we can, being away from India. If that means contributing towards girls' education - as small as donating money towards one school seems - I'll do it. But, like I've experienced in the past, having a Western feminist scream in my ear, "Aanchal, you're too distracted with all this media represenation bullshit - the cause of female infanticide is TOO DAMN DIRE to be nuanced. I'm disgusted!" is not productive and frankly, offensive. Because I care about women's rights worldwide, and I care about girls and women in India, but I also care about Indians, and the men in family who treated my mother with respect and love, and the little boys in my family who will grow up learning the right things - I care about them too.

There's no limit to compassion. I just wish some more feminists I work with would understand that bombing the heck out of Iraq is also a women's issue, and would express the requisite amount of outrage at that too. I'm not talking about a bumper sticker; I'm talking about the same bursting blood vessels that I see when we talk about female infanticide and dowry in India. I wish I saw some of that when we discuss the raping and pillaging and outright slaughter of thousands of Iraqis. Something more than a trite, "Yeah, Bush sucks. He's dumb."

What was the father of the baby doing all the time? And why was the grandfather (not the parents) of the baby supposed to take care of his grand daughter? Unanswered questions...

Please !Puhleaze people all over the world .Puhleaze stop making babies if you cannot afford to give them good life.
puhleaze stop cribbing about the inflation , the rising costs of insurance and similar bs that are denying your family two square meals a day.
When will people understand that a tonne of contraceptives are cheaper than the smallest family.

This story is not newsworthy precisely because it's a SOLVED crime.

SST, it is newsworthy. Often the news source reporting about this issue is not worthy, but this story is worth bringing to the forefront.

to echo both rahul and others, this is worldwide. the constant dominance and preference for male children and the existence of a patriarchal society cannot be ignored or dismissed.

Bidi, I understand where you are coming from, and I'm really not trying to be a contradictory mess, but my fear with statements like this is that it conflates all instances of male preference as more similar than not. My point being, yes, patriarchy and the valuing of male lives over female ones (and maybe even male preference, I'm not educated enough on this as a global phenomenon to comment authoritavely) is a worldwide phenomenon, but female infanticide is occuring on such a large scale only in India and a few other countries. There may be a preference for males in other countries, but they are not aborting their girls at the alarming and saddening rate that India and a few other countries are.

My whole beef with this issue is how some people are reacting to this phenomenon - unnuanced, racist, monolithic statements about Indian culture which almost make male preference out to be some immutable mental characteristic, while ignoring very real factors like economics, history, etc.

Maybe in real life this will all play out in a less-than-nuanced, confrontational manner - revolutions and social movements are all about grand gestures - but that doesn't mean the ideological underpinnings of the movement have to be steeped in blind, uncalculated rage. Rage is important in that a visceral reaction is always better than a detached one, but it cannot be the be all and end all of a movement.

i don't think education has to do much with the issue. my husband, a MBA and NRI, won't let me adopt a girl-child. why?? he thinks people will think we are having "problems" concieving a child. Whenever a case on infanticide comes up he comments "what the hell is wrong with parents wanting to have a boy?" no matter of explaining, facts and figures make him see the evil in it. then when we talk about rape or sexual assualt he always blames the girl "maybe she wasn't wearing anything provocative; but the girl who walked by might be, or he might have gotten aroused by a movie" that far off movie star can be blamed for the rape but not the guy who committed it. there are lots of people around us who have such attitude. they talk about women's liberation n all but when it comes to their own family they can't do it.
before marraige i thought no one in this century thinks in this manner. but sadly people are still stuck in the 17th century and lot more than we can ever imagine.

The dowry was a huge problem in medieval Europe as well. What's more, lots of people knew it was a problem. Clerics railed against it, burgers complained about the burden it imposed about them, but the system was so ingrained no one was able to stop it.

In medieval Europe, infanticide, which was illegal, was accomplished by the adult rolling over the infant in the bed, which smothered it (in poor families, beds were shared). No one could prove it wasn't an accident. Again, clerics knew what was going on, and preached against it, but the economic reality of poverty and large families kept it going.

To stop infanticide, you need to (1) end the institution of the dowry; and (2) somehow change the economic realities of the peasantry. Neither will be easy.

Rahul,

it is NOT JUST ABOUT SOCIO-ECONOMICS

_______________________________________

You are conflating the central issue here--I agree it's not just about economics (the Marxist--materialist view)--
it is about society--don't conflate the two--what else is there, after all...
the point is about a societal practice that should be stopped--full period.

the reality of any indian family is that a boy is any day welcome more than a girl and expecting dowry is birthright. education has not and cannot guarantee a change in these mindsets.

I think the issue not whether one nation treats its women better than some other nation.

Agree with Brij, bidi, FOBGuy, and especially thank sic semper tyrannis very much for nailing the communications problem. Widow Power, you are reacting after the fact to foreign, second-hand reporting of a crime for which the prosecution of all possible claims appears to have been completed. Besides underlining (I hope) the point so cleanly made by sic semper tyrannis, I'm extending what I said in the last thread to say a) that preferential treatment of males is not something that characterizes any particular culture, and b) the article we are discussing here seems to be part of a media campaign we glimpsed and some of us discussed in the other thread, and which is designed to prepare individual Americans to regard Indians with distrust and disgust, with encouragement from shamed American Desis, just at the moment when the two nations are preparing to alter their relationship. I don't think the story of Jon Benet Ramsey was broadcast in India, for instance, nor that Indian or American ex-pat readers and tv audiences in India are primed to slaver over crime news about America, so the forces deployed by media engaging in this campaign are far greater and far more damaging than any possible counterpart and the outcome will therefore be unfair.

Have you come across it in USA? Canada? UK? Germany? Sweden? Switzerland? Holland? Denmark? France? Belgium? Where?

Widow Power, That's a very small "Where?" that you cite, in terms of land mass and population both, but even so, if you look at some early literature from those countries, I'm sure you will find a preference for male children and adults embedded in those cultures too. This has to do with more easily observed and even simple forms of physical strength in every stage of male life-- because men don't bear children and become temporarily fragile and dependent as adults.

Interesting comments from Aanchal / Amrita / sic semper. Few things are more annoying than an Armchair Western feminist - many of whom have a patronizing attitude.

Floridian has put his money where his mouth is - by adopting an orphan girl child.

I wonder how many of the commenters are willing to take the pain to adopt a baby girl and raise her to be a member of the 'model minority'. Easier to rant and rave!!

Sushmita Sen - a well known Indian actress / former Miss Universe adopted a baby girl though she was single. Good thin. Wish there were more people like her.

I wonder how many of the commenters are willing to take the pain to adopt a baby girl and raise her to be a member of the 'model minority'. Easier to rant and rave!!

It's a pre-req for whom I'll marry, just like having a vegetarian household and no guns in the home. I've had more problems with getting people to agree to the latter two, not that you asked. :) I've wanted to do this for years. Some of us are willing, don't see it as a pain, but a blessing.

It is easier to rant and rave, but I don't want to condemn people for at least experiencing outrage...better that than indifference. If it means calling someone out the next time some stupidity is uttered about, "Oh, it's a girl? Too bad..." then those ranters and ravers are making a difference, too. Madguru is right, each of us can do something, right here, right now.

My mum's cousin is now in the process of adopting her third baby girl. The first time round she caused quite a stir, though not because the baby was a girl but because apparently adopting is still a taboo in India.

What's a ballpark figure for adopting a child from india?

Girls in Kerala somehow have it better,with Matrilineal castes where the properties are handed from Mother to daughter.I don't have the stats,but Kerala is generally accepted to have more girls vs. Males compared to any other state.

Karthik on July 5, 2007 10:14 PM ·
Interestingly enough, my dad was telling me today afternoon about how in some North Eastern state, female infanticide has left people with no brides.
I think you are wrong there. North Eastern states generally have a healthy female population, whereas states with more of a macho-agrarian culture like Punjab,Rajasthan,Haryana have a severe shortage of females nowadays that Haryanvis come down south to marry Kerala girls.
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IER20070628021356&Page=R&Title=Kerala&Topic=0
There was also an expose done by an Indian TV channel recently of a ultra sound clinic in punjab which was performing abortions on female babies and throwing them into the water well in the backyard.

According to Indian tradition, a father cannot attain moksha (salvation) unless he has a son to perform his last rites...combine this with the economic pressure to limit the size of the family,female babies are generally seen as a undue burden. hence the combination of tradition constrained by economics is disastrous for female babies.

I'm the person who talked about foeticide in the U.S., but I want to reemphasize that the study was for DESI families. Some were 2nd gen, most 1st gen. I bring this up because I don't think the same levels of gender-biased infanticide exist in the same degree in the U.S. if you take things in aggregate.

I think they've banned the ultrasound in Punjab (except for emergencies) to help discourage gender-based abortion. Part of me is conflicted on this, because I wonder what is worse -- to have a child and kill it, or to abort it? It's not like these same families aren't getting rid of their girls eventually, and I've met so many women who are shunned or mistreated for having girls instead of boys (because of course it's the woman's fault that she doesn't have a son). The stories you hear are awful -- parents immunizing only one child (the male) and refusing to immunize the girl, leaving the girl-child unattended in hot cars, etc. etc. And this happens in the U.S./Canada among desi families as well.

I'm always thankful that my parents, especially my dad, wanted to have girls. I really think it changed the tone of how we were brought up. Not saying that there weren't implicit differences (e.g. stricter curfews, etc.), but at least I didn't feel like my parents thought I was a mistake or regret in their lives. Conversely, my dadi always told me how worthless I was from the moment she met me (at 2). As soon as my younger brother was born she used to tell me that my parents would give me away because they didn't need girls anymore, and she was purposefully negligent when she would babysit me when I was little (like age 2-4) in the hopes that I would just "accidentally" kill myself. In retrospect it's sickening, but the sad truth is that many of the aunties/uncles around her agreed. The only time she shut up was in front of my parents because she knew they wouldn't put up with her sexist hatred.

I hadn't considered White Man's Burden seriously, because I'd also heard that it was just a book long rant against Sachs (I exaggerate, of course), but your comment makes it seem more interesting.

According to Indian tradition, a father cannot attain moksha (salvation) unless he has a son to perform his last rites...combine this with the economic pressure to limit the size of the family,female babies are generally seen as a undue burden. hence the combination of tradition constrained by economics is disastrous for female babies.

Again, I don't buy the economics argument. If this were the case, there would be greater parity among which children are killed. While girls would probably still be killed more often than boys, the skew would not be so pronounced. Furthermore, families of all socioeconomic backgrounds are killing their girls. I don't think economics is the driving factor here. I'm sure that it skews if all else is equal, but education and class really don't seem to make as much of a difference as attitudes and norms do.

Rob, socioeconomics is a combined term because it is talking about the cultural processes, resources, etc., that come from a certain economic privilege/class background, etc. I don't think Rahul argued that there isn't a societal issue; he argued that class is not the driving factor in female infanticide.

."Clerics railed against it, burgers complained about the burden it imposed about them, but the system was so ingrained no one was able to stop it."
Yeah, there were things like that going on in Europe. In most countries there were more boys than girls (beyond the normal, slight skew in favor of male births) right up until the Industrial Revolution around the middle of the 18th century. The disparity was more pronounced in well to do families than poor ones. William L. Langer, "Infanticide: A Historical Survey," Hislory of Childhood Quarterly l(1974):353-65; "Further Notes on the History of Infanticide" History of Childhood Quarterly 2(1974): 129-134.

Pooja said:

i don't think education has to do much with the issue. my husband, a MBA and NRI, won't let me adopt a girl-child. why?? he thinks people will think we are having "problems" concieving a child. Whenever a case on infanticide comes up he comments "what the hell is wrong with parents wanting to have a boy?" no matter of explaining, facts and figures make him see the evil in it. then when we talk about rape or sexual assualt he always blames the girl "maybe she wasn't wearing anything provocative; but the girl who walked by might be, or he might have gotten aroused by a movie" that far off movie star can be blamed for the rape but not the guy who committed it.

Pooja, wow.

No offense, but how are you still married to this guy?

melbourne desi said:

Interesting comments from Aanchal / Amrita / sic semper. Few things are more annoying than an Armchair Western feminist - many of whom have a patronizing attitude.

When I read this story--I don't do so as a Westerner. I read it as a woman empathizing for the horrendous treatment of a baby who's only crime was being born a female. Yes, horrible things happen to women and children in this country as well--but the grandfather (and so many others before him) have openly admitted that it was simply because of the child's sex.

Shall we sit back and do nothing?

Yes, women's standing is better in Kerala but still much needs to be improved. In my own family some 40 years back, my grandfather wouldn't marry his daughters or nieces to anyone that asked for dowry...I am heartened by such things. But domestic violence is still prevalent in Kerala and women still suffer a lot from "eve teasing" and despite education, their independence is hampered still by oppressive attitudes toward women. As a Kerala women you are encouraged to become a doctor but if you walk on the beach by yourself during the day, you could still be considered loose. And like I said, domestic violence in Kerala is rampant, and unfortunately for the women, their families, out of shame, often do not help the women and feel it is still something she needs to suffer/endure to keep the family together - b/c what life will she have if she is divorced or lives without a man? And what shame she will bring on her own family?

My uncle said to me in Malayalam this interesting metaphor --- I am writing the translation in English - he said, "in india women are like a leaf that falls on a thorn. Both the thorn and leaf are complicit in their connection, but only the leaf is scarred/torn. The thorn, the man, is left unashamed, unhampered, unchanged, but it's the leaf, the women, that carries all the responsibilities and repurcussions"; Needless to say I can apply this outside of India as well.

But of course there are women and men who do not follow this mainstream interpretation of a women's role. My younger sister, right now is in Kerala doing research on this organization ---- amazing organization started by Kerala women --- http://sakhikerala.org/

It is really sad. We and the rest of the world close our eyes and pretend what we don't see does not affect us. No one is ready to face the harsh realities of life.

http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html

The truth is atrocities against women have affected us all one way or the other. My mother, for one, who suffered all her life at the hands of an insensitive husband, held on strong for her children, to keep the family together and prayed every day for a better life. She passed away a couple of years ago, God bless her soul, we are thankful for all her sacrifices and happy that she is in a happy place now. But we can never forget the circumstances she had to endure and are scarred for the rest of our lives, that is one wound which will never heal.

Cliff - thanks for sharing. I'm so sorry for your mother's suffering. I have seen this happen to other women in my life who are close to me. I am curious - Do you have a South Asian cultural background?

Widow power - How do you propose to change the culture in India that is complicit in female infanticide ? This is a serious question - not a rhetorical one. Please dont say the government - coz the State is comprised of people who harbour the same medieval beliefs. I am quite keen to know some new thoughts.

Below Bidi says education would work. By that he means social awareness programs.

To those who suggested education- it works. we're not talking about learning how to be a cpa, we're talking about learning how to think critically about the society we live in and what it assigns worth to. its not necessarily how to learn economics but also how to think critically.

However, gender based issues have to do with sexuality and sex ed is not allowed in Indian schools. Indian society is in denial about alot of things. If it's not talked about then it doesn't happen sort of mentality. The issue of women and their place in modern Indian culture is something that I don't think will be on the syllubus of public schools there for a long time, although it should be. So when you talk about education, first be aware of what kind of education these kids are getting, and think about how difficult it would be to introduce awareness programs on issues like these, if even basic sex ed is considered controversial.

I know people have mentioned education here as a solution to the problem of infanticide (and we have had several well-thought and well-supported rejoinders to the contrary. In her new book, Nussbaum hits the nail on the head when she brings to the kind of the education that is offered to Indian children (she makes this point to account for a different phenomenon entirely, but I think her insight works in this context too). It is not that the Indian educational system is without merit - it just seems that we leave out some crucial skills that leave the "moral compass" damaged/under-developed/under-nourished:

The educational culture of India used to contain progressive voices, such as that of the great Tagore, who emphasized that all the skills in the world were useless, even baneful, if not wielded by a cultivated imagination and refined critical faculties. Such voices have now been silenced by the sheer demand for profitability in the global market. Parents want their children to learn marketable skills....

This is the problem.

And I don't buy that this desire for a male child is everywhere in the world. Sure, the planet is male dominated at this point in time, but this desire for male children - isn't that mostly an eastern thing? I've never been exposed to that concept at all here in the West.
But maybe it does exist in pockets somewhere over here as well. However, it it was so prevelant I would think I would have been exposed to it by now.

@PS-

Yes, I am a malayalee too, grew up in central India though!

Please !Puhleaze people all over the world .Puhleaze stop making babies if you cannot afford to give them good life.

It was the grandfather who killed the baby girl. He didn't even make the baby.

Aranchal

Who knows how many American men, for example, do not rape women because they know there's a real chance they'll serve time for it?I highly doubt it is because of the cultural superiority of the American man or his deep respect for women - one look at Maxim magazine or any male-centric publication which treats women as sex objects and there's no doubt that to many men, women are still just a piece of meat to pulverize.

Please! Looking at girlie mags or even porn does not mean you want to rape women. It also does not mean you do not respect women. It simply means you like to look at photos of attractive women scantily clad or nude - something alot of men do, including perhaps your closest friends and family members.

but I also care about Indians, and the men in family who treated my mother with respect and love, and the little boys in my family who will grow up learning the right things - I care about them too.

Now if you ever caught any of the above mentioned men or boys in your family looking at porn would you then assume that they do not respect women and want to rape them and the only thing preventing them from doing so is fear of law and punishment?

Respecting women does not mean you have to be some asexual prude who does not show a healthy interest in sexuality or women's bodies.

Similarly, nobody here has yet met a blanket statement that all Indian men are sexist pigs because this grand-dad murdered his grand-baby. What we are saying is that the system needs to be changed - the system of dowry in particular because this is one of several things in India that give rise to a preference for having boys.

Shalu, there's lots of young guys in India who think and talk like Pooja's hubby. They're the right-wing nutjobs of India. My lawyer over there, who is thirty, started talking one day about how girls wearing tops with no sleeves were bound to get treated disrespectfully everywhere they went. I mean - 'no sleeves'. I think it was some kind of hint.

i don't think education has to do much with the issue. my husband, a MBA and NRI, won't let me adopt a girl-child. why?? he thinks people will think we are having "problems" concieving a child. Whenever a case on infanticide comes up he comments "what the hell is wrong with parents wanting to have a boy?" no matter of explaining, facts and figures make him see the evil in it. then when we talk about rape or sexual assualt he always blames the girl "maybe she wasn't wearing anything provocative; but the girl who walked by might be, or he might have gotten aroused by a movie" that far off movie star can be blamed for the rape but not the guy who committed it. there are lots of people around us who have such attitude. they talk about women's liberation n all but when it comes to their own family they can't do it. before marraige i thought no one in this century thinks in this manner. but sadly people are still stuck in the 17th century and lot more than we can ever imagine.

Pooja, why did you ever marry such a person? If my man spoke like that I would seriously consider divorce. If he does not value female life and happiness in general, how much do you really think he values you?

Girls in Kerala somehow have it better,with Matrilineal castes where the properties are handed from Mother to daughter.I don't have the stats,but Kerala is generally accepted to have more girls vs. Males compared to any other state.

Dubliner: Most of the Nairs I know tell me that their families switched over to the patrilineal norm about 100 years ago. But I do agree with you that this practice may have helped give women in Kerala an early leg up that was maintained by the superior human development investments in Kerala.

Well, Indian journalists can cover whatever stories they want. If they didn't cover the Ramsey story, it's their choice. And I think the underlying issue here is that this wasn't just some random crazy grand-dad who killed the baby on a fluke. It was pre-planned due to the fact that her dowry would not have been able to be met and the cost of raising a girl child whom you have to pay her future husband and his in laws to take into their home and work as a maid free of cost, was not worth the amount it would take to raise her.

So what we are examining here is the historical, cultural and societal views about females and the institution of marriage that gave rise to this incident.

Stating that someone read somewhere back in the 1800s Americans or Brits or whoever had similar views of women does not change the fact that these views are still in existence NOW in India. Like I said before, all cultures have their issues, but not all issues are the same and not all take place at the same time in history. So let's deal with what is going on now in our lifetimes - not what went on in someone else's previous lifetime.

My lawyer over there, who is thirty, started talking one day about how girls wearing tops with no sleeves were bound to get treated disrespectfully everywhere they went. I mean - 'no sleeves'.

Clearly he hasn't seen my bingo wings...

I think they've banned the ultrasound in Punjab (except for emergencies) to help discourage gender-based abortion. Part of me is conflicted on this, because I wonder what is worse -- to have a child and kill it, or to abort it? It's not like these same families aren't getting rid of their girls eventually, and I've met so many women who are shunned or mistreated for having girls instead of boys (because of course it's the woman's fault that she doesn't have a son). The stories you hear are awful -- parents immunizing only one child (the male) and refusing to immunize the girl, leaving the girl-child unattended in hot cars, etc. etc. And this happens in the U.S./Canada among desi families as well.

I'm always thankful that my parents, especially my dad, wanted to have girls. I really think it changed the tone of how we were brought up. Not saying that there weren't implicit differences (e.g. stricter curfews, etc.), but at least I didn't feel like my parents thought I was a mistake or regret in their lives. Conversely, my dadi always told me how worthless I was from the moment she met me (at 2). As soon as my younger brother was born she used to tell me that my parents would give me away because they didn't need girls anymore, and she was purposefully negligent when she would babysit me when I was little (like age 2-4) in the hopes that I would just "accidentally" kill myself. In retrospect it's sickening, but the sad truth is that many of the aunties/uncles around her agreed. The only time she shut up was in front of my parents because she knew they wouldn't put up with her sexist hatred.

If this and some of the things other contributers here are writing about their own experiences amongst their families is not enough to convince anyone that India has overdosed on the female haterade, then I don't know what will. It is disheartening to hear people poo poo it with "oh well, this whole world is male dominated anyway... we aren't the only ones". When conversing about the phenomena of seriel killers in USA, I never retort with, "oh well, people murder in India too".

Like I said before, different cultures have different issues and all the issues are not the same.

PJ Harvey's song is an apt title for this post, a perfect blend of rage and sorrow.

PJ Harvey's song is an apt title for this post, a perfect blend of rage and sorrow.

Yay, someone got it. :)

Couldn't get it out of my head after reading the BBC story. :(

Pooja, why did you ever marry such a person? If my man spoke like that I would seriously consider divorce. If he does not value female life and happiness in general, how much do you really think he values you?

I view female choice of male partners much like a studio's choice of greenlighting a movie. After a serious and large vetting process, studios can still put out crappy movies.

My inner asshole says that more statistics or context aren't necessary-- we've just spent far too long seeing women as a burden, not a blessing. And that's not just a desi sin. :(

Well it's hardly a Western European one.

I'm Greek and within 2 generations Greece went from being deeply sexist place to very European (socialist, egalitarian, etc). SO much so that I'd even go so far as to claim that the Greeks living here in the US are often more conservative than Greeks you'll meet in Greece. So why is India the way that it is? I would expect infanticide in the poorest, least educated places not out of ignorance but out of the need to survive -- girls are more expensive because of things like a dowry. But the largest sex imbalances are in the wealthiest states.

Is it the lack of family planning? Lack of female empowerment? I know in Greece when the pill hit woman went to work in large numbers and stopped getting married. They also stopped having large families -- many chose not to have any children at all.

Well it's hardly a Western European one.

Right, because Spain, Italy, Greece...those countries aren't macho at ALL. This is about more than the specific horror of female infanticide. This is about women being regarded as inferior/not worthy of respect and that happens everywhere, even in Western Europe.

Right, because Spain, Italy, Greece...those countries aren't macho at ALL

With respect I strongly disagree. Birth rates are very low there because woman stopped getting married and decided living in cities was more fun than living at home with the kids. I expect the church to start failing there in the next generation.

These places were very macho at one point but really not anymore. You're thinking Hemingway and bullfighting and Europe has moved on.

Southern Europe is nothing like it was 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago.

This really depends on which tradition you're talking about, though. For example, in Sikhi there is no such requirement, and in fact there is a strenuous argument for gender equality. Yet Punjab has one of the highest rates of female foeticide. Clearly something is not adding up.

I think part of this is due to demographics and is thus not an equal transaction between not valuing a female child and female foeticide
Punjab itself, a lot of people have been voting with their feet for decades; people continue to immigrate from there all the time. In a sense, punjabi culture has become arranged in part around immigration. This likely has profound causes, and effectsThere is something sociological going on, and I think its got to be multi-factorial. The very played out idea that its all down to some "macho agrarian" lifestyle is just, kindergarten analysis. Its as simplistic as any other pro or anti punjabi slogan. If the only response to this is simply that this is a symptom of misogyny in combination with a macho (agrarian??) culture, its not going to get solved, in my opinion.

Shalu,

I don't understand what is so patronizing in pointing out that India is a country that conducts higher than average number of female infanticides? This is a proven fact, and one that is a shame for the country.

It's patronizing because prosecutors can't do anything with your facts. If you know of a person XYZ who is willing to confess to infanticide, or you know of a place QRS with concrete evidence to prosecute person XYZ, then you're helping the prosecutor build a case and you're helping put dirtbags behind bars. The courts, police, prosecutors, et al. cannot do anything with numbers divined from some statistical methodology; the justice system needs specific cases and evidence. The low female:male ratio, even adjusted for Hepatitis-B induced gender imbalance as Emily Otis pointed out in an article Razib linked, is the smoking gun that infanticide is a widespread problem - but without any leads or suspects, it's a useless smoking gun.

Abortions and Infanticide in India - 10 million aborted/killed over 20 years (countercurrents.org)
AIDS in India - 11 million deaths over 20 years (social.moldova.org)
Tobacco in India - 20 million deaths over 20 years (5.4 million deaths/yr globally - India constitutes more than 20%) (medindia.net)
All Causes in India - 190 million deaths over 20 years (60 million deaths/yr globally, 9.5 million/yr in India) (medicine.plosjournals.org)

So clearly, abortions and infanticide are a big problem, 10 million over 20 years is a monumental tragedy. The govt. of India does treat it seriously, banning sex-determination and sex-selection (bbc.co.uk), both of which are legal in the U.S, up to the first or second trimester depending on the state. In India, the problem is not prevalent throughout the nation; it's highly regional: "'India is a very mixed bag,' Eberstadt said. 'In some parts there are no signs of any unnatural imbalances; in other parts the numbers are grotesque.'" (foxnews.com)

That's Emily Oster, not Emily Otis.

With respect I strongly disagree. Birth rates are very low there because woman stopped getting married and decided living in cities was more fun than living at home with the kids. I expect the church to start failing there in the next generation.

These places were very macho at one point but really not anymore. You're thinking Hemingway and bullfighting and Europe has moved on.

Southern Europe is nothing like it was 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago.

Is macho a symptom or a cause? Maybe its both. Maybe an entire society needs rehabilitation in order to get the problem solved. Greece, while also maybe becoming less macho has also become more, I guess one could say, post-industrial; more like Western Europe. Being more like Western Europe encompasses a lot more than just being or not being macho. The pill, attitudes generally towards sex, child birth, ect.; the economy, how cities are developed, ect. Maybe in punjab and other places, a solution will come from trying to be more like Western Europe, and then the macho thing will just change like presumably in Greece. I think its somewhat startling to say, but yeah, why not be more like Western Europe. Things are pretty good all in all there. South Asians including Punjabis are flocking to Western Europe, UK, US, Australia regardless. What would be wrong in simply admitting that the home regions could stand to be more like Western Europe, so people can go ahead and have the option, and not be in some cases scrambling to leave

Right, because Spain, Italy, Greece...those countries aren't macho at ALL. This is about more than the specific horror of female infanticide. This is about women being regarded as inferior/not worthy of respect and that happens everywhere, even in Western Europe.

Pondatti, in all honesty do you think that western european attitudes towards women, marriage, single womanhood, women's sexuality and expression are the same as India's? I mean way down deep in your heart, where you are honest with yourself 100%, do you really think they are the same?

I've never been to Greece or Spain, and was only in Italy for one week, however, if even these countries have progressed so much, like Petra (who has been there) says they have from her own experience, then what to speak of Sweden, Holland, Germany, France, Belgium, Norway, England, etc, etc,. ???

I think what is being overlooked by those of you who want to retort, "it's the same everywhere", is that in Western Europe and North America/Canada, attitudes towards sexuality and singlehood (bacholor/bacholorette - hood), are very very very different from India's.

This in turn would make India's view of women and widowhood (as talked about in the other thread) very different. It would even make different the view of giving birth to a female child.

This is what I was trying to get at when I said things need to change from the ROOT. Just telling people not to kill babies is not going to do much. Or making it illegal for the doctor to tell them the gender of the child - these things can be circumvented. But if you go to the ROOT of a cultures conditionings regarding gender and sexuality, well, then that can change things over time, from the inside out, or from the root to the budding flower on the tip of the branch.

Like Petra said, many women in Greece have opted out of marriage and babymaking with the arrival of birth control methods. Marriage is no longer seen as a neccessity for a woman there, but it is in India, accompanied by a dowry and a life of service to the in-laws of which the bahu does not get paid for (especially in rural and small towns).

These are all factors behind the mindset of the grandfather who murdered his grandbaby.

A N N A,

Men and boys have been killed and murdered in homes, gangs, battlefields, schools, and elsewhere every day. for CENTURIES. That doesn't make it a gender issue.
The world is cruel to everyone, not just girls and women.

You're using these examples to whip up a frenzy that is ignores the rest of reality. That reality mistreats everyone equally, not just women. Ask the men who are sent to the battlefronts to fight. Ask the innocents put in prison.

You get emotional and lose sight of perspective. you seem to be obsessed by women's causes. IMHO, you seem to have become a radical feminist.

I once before posted links to the Indian govt's domestic violence survey form that showed that the survey was biased to elicit only one-sided information. Abhi corrected the blog based on it. I wish you would go research it too. If true statistics are brought out, the problem will be correctly seen as a social issue, not a gender issue.

If it makes me a "radical feminist" to point out the egregious discrepancy between

Men and boys have been killed and murdered in homes, gangs, battlefields, schools, and elsewhere every day for CENTURIES.

...and a baby being buried alive, then so be it. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING. Not even close. In the examples you cited, the humans in each case could possibly defend themselves...this two-day old, unfed, unnamed BABY could not.

The world is cruel to everyone, not just girls and women.

Right and because I posted this, I'm somehow denying that. YOU come on.

"Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings."

FYI- my DAD was a feminist, too. Now he was rad(ical).

I think what is being overlooked by those of you who want to retort, "it's the same everywhere", is that in Western Europe and North America/Canada, attitudes towards sexuality and singlehood (bacholor/bacholorette - hood), are very very very different from India's.

In general, things are very different in Western Europe. It would be different if South Asia was a hopeless basket-case; but I think its reasonable to attempt to make South Asia more like Western Europe on many parameters. This is probably an unspoken goal of the India Rising sloganeering. Undeniably South Asians, strikingly in the case of Punjab, are immigrating to Western Europe and the anglosphere. I guess I made this same point above, but I agree here; clearly Western/Northern Europe are different, in a lot of ways better is probably the more apposite word

Birth rates are very low there because woman stopped getting married and decided living in cities was more fun than living at home with the kids. I expect the church to start failing there in the next generation.

but I think its reasonable to attempt to make South Asia more like Western Europe on many parameters. This is probably an unspoken goal of the India Rising sloganeering.

Do you actually think this is realistic? India is NOT similar to Western Europe, you're talking about two very different cultures as well as two regions dominated by VERY different religions. No Greek Orthodox or RC father needs a son to light his pyre. As for women having fun with living single while being on the pill, didn't we just have a post about how these women don't even get to rent apartments in "sophisticated" places like Bombay/Delhi easily?? For exactly that reason, i.e. there are concerns about women expressing their sexuality? Am I the only one thinking "apples and oranges" here?

Undeniably South Asians, strikingly in the case of Punjab, are immigrating to Western Europe and the anglosphere.

Yes, and they are taking their bullshit attitudes towards their female offspring with them. See: Camille. :( Whose family has been here for GENERATIONS if I'm not mistaken.

I have a modest suggestion. Since we on SM are all so enlightened and sexually liberated, let's move up our platonic interactions to the next notch and win the demographic battle!

Yeah I think they are very different now, but make some changes and they would look a lot more similiar. Thats the point of the Southern Europe analogy. I do think its possible and a lot of what is taken as common Western European characteristics are really the characteristics of a society that works as well as Western Europe does now. Doesn't mean that the language has to be Western European, the clothing or the food, but on a broad level, if South Asia turns into a developed OECD country, it'll look more like an OECD country

I'm sure there's a lot of bullshit attitudes, but not all the attitudes are bullshit. There's a lot that's good about punjabi culture

There's a lot that's good about punjabi culture

There is a lot that is AWESOME about Punjabi culture and especially Sikhism, which has to be one of the most enlightened faiths in the world, IMHO. If Punjabi culture weren't so alluring, you wouldn't have Bong and Mallu kids wistfully wishing they were Punjabi, instead. :)

Unfortunately, the only desi girl I've ever met who was DENIED the chance to go to college, b/c they thought it a waste of money, when they could marry her off instead? Punjabi. It's sad that such a beautiful community has such a tragic proclivity to not love its daughters as much as its sons. I'm not hating on any community/region/country/faith. I'm just saying, let's be nice to girls. It's not a crime to be born with ovaries.

For exactly that reason, i.e. there are concerns about women expressing their sexuality? Am I the only one thinking "apples and oranges" here?

Anna I posted what I did about Greece because it really was that backwards not so long ago. The change is so marked because it was so rapid and complete.

We're talking the whole nine yards here: honor killings, arranged marriages (my yiayia had an arranged marriage that's two generations back -- no one in Greece would think of having one now -- my aunt had one too) families of 10 or so (my grandfather was 1 of 13 children -- this was perfectly normal for the time) and most importantly no or little education for the woman. For my Yiayia's generation it was normal for many woman to be illiterate (the time period I'm thinking of is just before WWII, my father was born in the 40's, I was born in the 70's).

Greece today is permissive, premarital sex is not particularly shameful, cohabitation perfectly normal, unmarried woman in their 30's and 40's normal, men and woman deciding to have no children -- normal.

I liken it to very effective vaccines. The more effective a vaccine is the more likely it is to be thought of as dangerous because the disease it eradicated completely wiped away. Whatever happened in Greece in the last 60 or so years changed the face of Greece's society. It no more resembles the country of my father's birth than my toy poodle resembles a wolf.

So why not India?

There's plenty of just whack attitudes out there in punjabi culture and all cultures. On some level, there probably always will be. Get the right Belgian in a conversation and they might shock any of us with outlandish ideas. Societies should be set up to work for all segments within it; getting there seems tricky. South Asian society has a number of things to take up; as a general plan, why not keep in mind the OECD countries as a really good model?

P.S. if you're talking style points, Mallus bring it to the table any and every day. Y'all don't have anything to worry about

Not even close. In the examples you cited, the humans in each case could possibly defend themselves...this two-day old, unfed, unnamed BABY could not.

The baby's own humanity wasn't identified. In the Grandfathers eyes, the baby wasn't an individual human being, rather property or a liability or a problem. The question the baby defending itself is moot. While the act in and of itself is cruel and heinous, and unjustifiable what kind of life was she geared up for in the first place? Having aunties hope that she trips and falls down a big ass well? Then, being bartered off to some guy?

Unfortunately, the only desi girl I've ever met who was DENIED the chance to go to college, b/c they thought it a waste of money, when they could marry her off instead? Punjabi

Deny someone the chance at education? That's pretty bad. Deny someone the chance to join Bhangra blowout, and take hopping on one foot to the next level. That's just plain malicious.

Something to think about for all including me:

"...The burden of dowry also has been used as justification for sex-selective abortions. In India, sex-determination clinics solicit clients with slogans like “Better 500 now than 5,000 later”, where the number 500 indicates the price of a sex-determination test and the number 5,000 indicates the cost of a bride’s dowry payment. This does not explain, however, why sex ratio imbalances are high in China and South Korea, where bride price, rather than dowry, is the norm, and were the expenses of a son’s wedding may exceed that of a daughter’s several times over..."
Above paragraph from:
http://brokendreams.wordpress.com/tag/female-infanticide/

What are the statistics/stories on female infanticide in Arab cultures (cultures that have their own forms of sexism) where the potential bride receives gifts from the groom's side?--I forget the name of the practice. When friends from Morocco and Algeria were describing this practice of the bride being wooed with material things, my mind understood it as a dowry in reverse, although perhaps that is not an accurate understanding.

Floridian, your post alone managed to bring hot, humbling tears to my eyes.

If Anna feels "a perfect blend of rage and sorrow", can she explain why this incident happened even after 40 years of increasingly draconian Anti-Dowry legislations? draconian towards men, that is. By now, dowry should have been history and girls should have been free of the problem of having to be "married off".

It's because rage and sorrow doesn't make for good laws, it only makes for a police state. which gives birth to even more rage and sorrow.

It's because the legislations have been pushed by - and sometimes drafted by - hyper-frenzied feminist organizations that have little understanding or regard for the socio-economic contexts and are motivated by a hatred of men.

Also, by and large, people do love their daughters. but based on this kind of news, the law in India is getting ever more skewed, while being completely ineffective in combating the purported problem.

and "concerned souls" like Anna, who know nothing, absolutely nothing about that farmer's family, their daily struggles, their assets and debts, their life, what they eat, drink, think... declare that a dagger sears into their heart, and that the indian govt must take stronger, tougher action on all men, so that they can stop worrying about this distressing issue and go back to planning their next party.

Do you really think this is realistic? India is NOT similar to Western Europe, you're talking about two very different cultures as well as two regions dominated by VERY different religions. No Greek Orthodox or RC father needs a son to light his pyre. As for women having fun with living single while being on the pill, didn't we just have a post about how these women don't even get to rent apartments easily?? For exactly that reason, i.e. there are concerns about women expressing their sexuality? Am I the only one thinking "apples and oranges" here?

Anna, I'm so glad you brought up these points. Religion does have an influence on people's attitudes towards women. Even if a single sloka cannot be remembered or repeated from any scripture to the effect of the need of a son for this, that or the other thing, still, the impressions have made their marks on the minds of the people over the centuries. My grandmother may not be able to cite any reference for the sacrifices Sita, Sati, Savitri, etc made for their husbands but it is in her consciousness and that mood is conveyed to all the girls in the family. So whether or not "putra" can be translated as "child" in a gender neutral way or not in the scriptures regarding funeral pyres, still the mood which is conveyed is that the son is needed, and that is what has been carried down for the centuries and entered the minds as impressions in the present generation.

So when these impressions are dislodged and dismantled in the minds of Indians, you will see an overall improvement in rental statistics, female birth statistics, widow remarriage statistics, etc, etc, anything that has to do with women in general

Deny someone the chance at education? That's pretty bad. Deny someone the chance to join Bhangra blowout, and take hopping on one foot to the next level. That's just plain malicious.

Yeah, those f-ing stupid ass punjabi goombas, they think killing a baby is nothing compared to not being able to dance. Those jigabos.

If Punjabi culture weren't so alluring, you wouldn't have Bong and Mallu kids wistfully wishing they were Punjabi, instead.

What about Tamil culture? We are CAUCASOID too!

and "concerned souls" like Anna, who know nothing, absolutely nothing about that farmer's family, their daily struggles, their assets and debts, their life, what they eat, drink, think... declare that a dagger sears into their heart, and that the indian govt must take stronger, tougher action on all men,

All I declared was my sadness. This is my group blog. I get to do that.

I didn't say anything about what the government of a country I am not a citizen of should do.

I certainly didn't say that I hate men, so you can kill THAT fantasy. I'm not that easy to dismiss, sorry.

so that they can stop worrying about this distressing issue and go back to planning their next party.

You're calling ME out for knowing nothing about the farmer, but it's okay for you to spout haterade about me, WHOM YOU DO NOT KNOW either. You, sir are a class-A hypocrite. If I bother you so much, don't read me, but beyond that don't put words in my mouth.

You, sir are a class-A hypocrite

That was a class-A sexist remark, A N N A! Just because comon hates women, doesn't mean comon can't be a woman! I mean, COM ON!

Oh wait. I forgot. In this case railing against injustice does not help HMF and his apparent self-identification issues. So in that case, let's just be really stereotypical.

If, on the other hand, it helps him he will forcefully combat injustice

...and a baby being buried alive, then so be it. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING. Not even close. In the examples you cited, the humans in each case could possibly defend themselves...this two-day old, unfed, unnamed BABY could not.

young two day old male babies are killed because of lineage and inheritance issues. Indian history is full of stories where some young prince or other was murdered because the king's brother was next in line. That is NOT a gender issue. This happens in ordinary homes too, not just royal families.

Your post is clearly gender specific. "we do not value the lives of women", "May you be the mother of a hundred daughters".

Just because comon hates women, doesn't mean comon can't be a woman! I mean, COM ON!

You are so right, my darling. I was scratching my head, wondering, "is this guy actually intimating that men have it BAD in India?", when I could have been wondering, "is this guy/girl/dog actually intimating...". After all, on the internet, no one know if you're a dog. Or a bitch. In the case of the latter, they just assume it.

If Punjabi culture weren't so alluring, you wouldn't have Bong and Mallu kids wistfully wishing they were Punjabi, instead.

I haven't experienced this attitude among Mallus

I said

They should bury the grandfather alive VANISHING style.

sic semper tyrannis

The death penalty is allowed under by Indian courts, but the only method acceptable is hanging. That said, I don't believe in the death penalty when incarceration accomplishes the same end-result of 'never seeing or hearing him again'. Execution is unnecessary, and it's non-reversible if new evidence surfaces.

How about changing the ending of The Vanishing from the Dutch version to the American version? Give the old bastard a scare and then bring him out of there and then put him in jail.

I haven't experienced this attitude among Mallus

I'm glad. :)

no, I don't hate you Anna. I'm a guy and I love women.

I just hate illogical and tangential reasoning influenced by emotions. Doesn't matter who does it, men or women.

And don't get down to calling me a dog. Comon!

And don't get down to calling me a dog. Comon!

I wasn't. I was referencing this.

"is this guy actually intimating that men have it BAD in India?"

Everyone has it bad in India. you're the only one who choose to single out the plight of women and measure it by YOUR western standards. It MUST be measured by Indian standards, i.e. the plight of Indian men, children, grandpas, grandmas, the whole society. Everyone has it bad in India, not just little girls.

Men and boys have been killed and murdered in homes, gangs, battlefields, schools, and elsewhere every day. for CENTURIES. That doesn't make it a gender issue. The world is cruel to everyone, not just girls and women.

If ANNA is a radical feminist, then I'm happy to be in her company. Her posts, especially on issues that disproportionately affect women, bring to light issues that are often ignored, marginalized, or trivialized.

Sahej, I hear you. I don't think "macho agrarian society" is to blame in Punjab, but there is definitely something deeply dysfunctional happening. The immigration angle is interesting; to be honest, I hadn't really thought about it before. Although, there are lots of guys in the U.S. going back to the des for brides -- I wonder how that skews gender balance at the "marriagable age." Seems like the demand for Punjabi brides is relatively high compared to the demand (in the U.S.) for ABD women. That last sentence is of course speculation and not at all based in any empirical data. Nonethless, I have a really hard time wrapping my head around 2nd/3rd gen folks who adopt the same attitudes towards son-preference.

I have a modest suggestion. Since we on SM are all so enlightened and sexually liberated, let's move up our platonic interactions to the next notch and win the demographic battle!

Yes, and they are taking their bullshit attitudes towards their female offspring with them. See: Camille. :( Whose family has been here for GENERATIONS if I'm not mistaken.

My dadi was crazy and probably not an accurate reflection of the rest of my family, but she was a relatively accurate representation of the other families/elders who migrated in my parents' peer group

Camille, no worries-- I should apologize, I probably misread you somewhere. :)

As for your Dadi...she is an accurate representation of my friend's family as well, and they came AFTER your parents did. They were in the UK, got here in the mid 80s. :(

For crap's sake, if we can't feel rage and sorrow about a baby being buried alive, what can we feel rage and sorrow about?

It's because the legislations have been pushed by - and sometimes drafted by - hyper-frenzied feminist organizations

Flippant as I was earlier, comon, your logic makes as much sense as Moornam's remark that the primary way to prevent discrimination against single women tenants is to increase legal protection for landlords. Why don't we increase security for assassins while we are it, so they don't feel threatened and kill important people?

I am no expert, but I'd be tremendously surprised if the primary reason that even existing legislation is not enforced is not the sexist attitudes that prevail at most levels of bureaucracy and administration. The numbers about India do not lie. The problem is far far more severe than in the West, where it still exists (Widow Power, that's for you. Although feel free to make a gesture the world will notice when you win the lingam worship competition at the next Asian Games hosted at Vrindavan - assuming you are PG).

Also, some of the stories on this post by Camille, Cliff et. al. are quite sad, and I've seen varying degrees of this kind of behavior in my own extended family. Thankfully, Boy, oh, boy, am I a boy!

Oh, and Camille, thanks for the information about the books. More to read! Between this and SM, whither work?

Greece today is permissive, premarital sex is not particularly shameful, cohabitation perfectly normal, unmarried woman in their 30's and 40's normal, men and woman deciding to have no children -- normal.

Petra, how do you know that this is what all (or even most)people want to see happen to India? Why are you promoting this as being the best way on Earth? I find your comments arrogant. Yes I enjoy the freedoms I have here in America, including various physical relationships but you are showing no understanding of the fact that perhaps some of us admire many aspects of our culture and DON'T want to see our lands become pale imitations of western Europe. As it is already, the educated elite young generation in India is essentially composed of Americans trapped in Indian bodies.

And Sahej, you talk about the good things in Punjabi culture yet you want it to become more like Europe...the very things you appreciate will also disappear if the kinds of changes you desire, end up happening. If you don't mind, can you tell me a few things you like about Punjabiat that you think could survive 'western europification'?

I don't think "macho agrarian society" is to blame in Punjab, but there is definitely something deeply dysfunctional happening. The immigration angle is interesting; to be honest, I hadn't really thought about it before. Although, there are lots of guys in the U.S. going back to the des for brides -- I wonder how that skews gender balance at the "marriagable age." Seems like the demand for Punjabi brides is relatively high compared to the demand (in the U.S.) for ABD women. That last sentence is of course speculation and not at all based in any empirical data. Nonethless, I have a really hard time wrapping my head around 2nd/3rd gen folks who adopt the same attitudes towards son-preference.

I think this is a third rail issue, in that its really heated. I doubt there is any one answer there. probably matters what region too. part of it to me is, Americanization is a really significant thing, and, is it always resolved? most men who are american have no problem dating someone who has as much or more dating experience as them. most trapped in a time-warp ABD men would, being as they were brought up in a culture that vapor-locked in the 60-70's of india. There's a reason we all love Moh. Rafi and most DBD's don't really care that much. they moved on, we vapor-locked. So, I think part of the trend is down to, its just going to be way less confusing to marry someone from india, when its time to get married. Marriage = like our parents = easy; dating = what all my friends are doing = at times confusing

there's probably 101 answers to this question. I don't personally see it so much in terms of docile DBD versus independent ABD, although it does happen

like our parents = easy

C'mon, Sahej, no need to bring yo momma into this!

Unfortunately, the only desi girl I've ever met who was DENIED the chance to go to college, b/c they thought it a waste of money, when they could marry her off instead? Punjabi. It's sad that such a beautiful community has such a tragic proclivity to not love its daughters as much as its sons. I'm not hating on any community/region/country/faith. I'm just saying, let's be nice to girls. It's not a crime to be born with ovaries.

What are the statistics/stories on female infanticide in Arab cultures (cultures that have their own forms of sexism) where the potential bride receives gifts from the groom's side?--I forget the name of the practice

What about Tamil culture? We are CAUCASOID too!

As for your Dadi...she is an accurate representation of my friend's family as well, and they came AFTER your parents did. They were in the UK, got here in the mid 80s. :(

Also, I think when looking at Punjab it helps to get the historic picture of gender preference. It's weird, there have been periods of time where this was not as widespread, but there was also mass-killing of daughters during Partition and other times of war because their families didn't want them to be raped. =/

Greece today is permissive, premarital sex is not particularly shameful, cohabitation perfectly normal, unmarried woman in their 30's and 40's normal, men and woman deciding to have no children -- normal.

Petra, how do you know that this is what all (or even most)people want to see happen to India? Why are you promoting this as being the best way on Earth? I find your comments arrogant. Yes I enjoy the freedoms I have here in America, including various physical relationships but you are showing no understanding of the fact that perhaps some of us admire many aspects of our culture and DON'T want to see our lands become pale imitations of western Europe. As it is already, the educated elite young generation in India is essentially composed of Americans trapped in Indian bodies.

Amitabh, the same freedoms you enjoy here in America, including those various physical relationships, would you deny them to the people of India just because you want to hold on to some dear, romanticised ideal of the "mother country"? Maybe the men and especially women of India would like to enjoy those very same freedoms without having to leave their country, like you or your parents did. Ever think about that?

Personally for me, whether or not premarital sex is acceptable or not in India would make no difference in my sex life, because I don't go to India for sex, and if I'm determined to have it, I will have it whether or not the neighbors approve or not. Where attitudes towards sexuality do affect me though is in practical day to day living where I may not be able to rent an ideal apartment due to the fact that I'm a single woman and perhaps "suspect" in matters sexual. Or where I may have some male friends over but be given a hard time because it's assumed we are having sex and sex is "bad".

I think it would be great if India could just ease up and relax on it's attitudes towards sex and sexuality in general. That does not neccessarily mean the pre-marital sex numbers will rise, but it would just create a more comfortable atmosphere and less pent-up kind of energy that you get around the subject as a single woman there.

I have no interest in having pre-marital sex in India. Yet if the attitudes around it were more chill, I would surely benefit.

correction: heard about it more often in the valley. man, I'm a lazy/incoherent typist.

There's a reason we all love Moh. Rafi and most DBD's don't really care that much

Even my parents, who I feel are pretty awesome/enlightened, say silly things. One day my mom said she was worried about my brother getting married (the kid is 21, bright, and totally into being a student at the moment). She was like, "Otherwise who else will provide for us when we are old?" Hello! You have two bright, educated daughters!

Rahul, no worries, it is my pleasure. I am a big fan of development lit, so I enjoy talking shop :)

Oh man, give me Punjabi gregariousness/hospitality and dancing + southie food and I would be in HEAVEN.

That's true, North Indians in general and Punjabis in particular, know how to have a good time. Unlike the average South Indian wedding which consists of stuffed-shirt Mamas and Mamis gossiping about Ambuja aunty and the next door neighbor's daughter.

To avoid idiocracy? ;)

It's either us, or the troglodytes at LGF! We have to win!

Also, Floridian, sorry if I'm embarrassing you, but Eliot AND an adopted daughter! I wish more people were like you and KNEW WHAT TIME IT IS.

There's a reason we all love Moh. Rafi

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Chaudvin ka Chand is the bestest song evah!

My grandmother may not be able to cite any reference for the sacrifices Sita, Sati, Savitri, etc made for their husbands but it is in her consciousness and that mood is conveyed to all the girls in the family.

Pardesi Gori, was your grandmother a vaishnav too?!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Chaudvin ka Chand is the bestest song evah!

How about 'Mausam Bada Beiman Hai' and 'Sau Saal Pahele'?

How about 'Mausam Bada Beiman Hai' and 'Sau Saal Pahele'?

How about 'Mausam Bada Beiman Hai'

Aaj Mausum is by far my fave Mohd. Rafi.

Well, I guess, Camille and Amitabh, you will just have to live with being wrong. Although you can console yourself with liking something in the all time top 5. As for Chuck Berry, the weird thing is that I'd first heard him just before I watched Back to the Future. I think I was the only one in my group who thought that section was funny.

Comon:

Yes, everyone "has it bad" in India.

Women just have it worse.

Amitabh, the same freedoms you enjoy here in America, including those various physical relationships, would you deny them to the people of India just because you want to hold on to some dear, romanticised ideal of the "mother country"?

I can't deny there's a certain hypocrisy to my comments. I can't help that because while I will certainly enjoy opportunities with women where those opportunities exist, but on a visceral level I don't want to see India go completely the way of the West...not that I have any power over that anyway. If that makes my opinion less valuable, I guess I understand that. Change is inevitable, but we should hold on to the good things we have. And frankly, Pardesi Gori, even though I have no power over you posting here either, but your endless tirade against the mores of a country which is not your own, and that you can just turn your back on and leave at your will (and which I suggest you do), which to me comes across as an unsolicited attack on my people and my culture, is highly offensive. Just for the record.

C'mon, Sahej, no need to bring yo momma into this!

haha. not trying to bring anyone's momma into anything. that stuff is too serious. :-)

And Sahej, you talk about the good things in Punjabi culture yet you want it to become more like Europe...the very things you appreciate will also disappear if the kinds of changes you desire, end up happening. If you don't mind, can you tell me a few things you like about Punjabiat that you think could survive 'western europification'?

Virtues, or ideals of behavior, there's no reason to have them change; why can't Punjabi culture not value things like being friendly, being loyal to family and friends, being true to one's principles, the music, the food, even the language? I think there's a lot of diaspora punjabi communities that mix things up where some of the good about punjabi culture and some of the good about their american culture mix. I think that's much better. No doubt punjab would change, but punjab needs to change too, there's a lot of things that can be improved there

I think my heart swooned a little. I looooove Mohd. Rafi, haha. I guess my point in bringing up the going back to the des-ness was that it also kind of correlates to some of the norms we keep even upon being "americanized." Like I said, I just don't get son-preference among the 2nd/3rd gen in the U.S. diaspora. It makes no legal (or otherwise) sense.

Even my parents, who I feel are pretty awesome/enlightened, say silly things. One day my mom said she was worried about my brother getting married (the kid is 21, bright, and totally into being a student at the moment). She was like, "Otherwise who else will provide for us when we are old?" Hello! You have two bright, educated daughters!

Its all Moh. Rafi, dude was sweet. I agree with you, there's some beliefs that don't need to be encouraged. I think it'll work itself out, but I see what you are saying, some of the women in certain diaspora communities, they have way too much to deal with. What is the reason? Part of it might just be no one is telling them to think differently. And part of it might be fear. In another country, just hoping their kids learn and about and follow their old customs.

Well, I guess, Camille and Amitabh, you will just have to live with being wrong.

I remember being totally tickled by Chuck Berry in Back to the Future. My dad used to play him nearly every night. When my folks first bought a CD player, the first CDs my dad bought were Chuck Berry and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. Awww, my parents are cute. Ok, back to the topic, sorry for the diversion.

I can't deny there's a certain hypocrisy to my comments. I can't help that because while I will certainly enjoy opportunities with women where those opportunities exist, but on a visceral level I don't want to see India go completely the way of the West...not that I have any power over that anyway. If that makes my opinion less valuable, I guess I understand that. I can't deny there's a certain hypocrisy to my comments. I can't help that because while I will certainly enjoy opportunities with women where those opportunities exist, but on a visceral level I don't want to see India go completely the way of the West...not that I have any power over that anyway. If that makes my opinion less valuable, I guess I understand that. Change is inevitable, but we should hold on to the good things we have. And frankly, Pardesi Gori, even though I have no power over you posting here either, but your endless tirade against the mores of a country which is not your own, and that you can just turn your back on and leave at your will (and which I suggest you do), which to me comes across as an unsolicited attack on my people and my culture, is highly offensive. Just for the record.

. And frankly, Pardesi Gori, even though I have no power over you posting here either, but your endless tirade against the mores of a country which is not your own, and that you can just turn your back on and leave at your will (and which I suggest you do), which to me comes across as an unsolicited attack on my people and my culture, is highly offensive. Just for the record.

Good - glad you recognize that. In the same vein you can then "forgive" my hypocrisy for commenting on "your" country, culture, people, etc.

Change is inevitable, but we should hold on to the good things we have.

But really Amitabh, if you really and truly thought those things were "good", you would hold onto them no matter where in the world you are, and act congruently. The fact that you don't, shows what you really value, I think.

So allow your people back in India the same freedom of choice.

But really Amitabh, if you really and truly thought those things were "good", you would hold onto them no matter where in the world you are, and act congruently. The fact that you don't, shows what you really value, I think.

Maybe you're right.

Good - glad you recognize that. In the same vein you can then "forgive" my hypocrisy for commenting on "your" country, culture, people, etc.

This endless criticism (and rarely any praise unless it's for some bizarre cult) is something I think you really need to get over. India has really scarred you deeply. And it's more the relentless and twisted attacks on traditions which are not yours that I mind, not mere 'comments'.

I do like to revel in my lack of class, it's true ;) But just for that, Rahul, I will go back and look up your fave song on my iPod.

I think a lot of us took a little trip to youtube after that!

I just hate illogical and tangential reasoning influenced by emotions. Doesn't matter who does it, men or women.

It's because rage and sorrow doesn't make for good laws...

Regarding the reverse dowry, or "bride price" of the Arabs/Muslims -- it was explained to me by a Pakistani muslim that a family who "loses" something as precious as a daughter needs to be given a small token in place of that, as a symbolic compensation for the great loss. I was thinking, "the same kind of flowery language used to describe dowry in India as "a gift of money given to their precious daughter so that she enters the husband's house on an independent strong footing with wealth of her own". Yeah right!

We all know that's now how these things really play out.

Is there any reason we can't have this while also living in a country with an society to the standards of the OECD?

Maybe, but what will we lose and what would we keep? Its a discussion worth having. What about our culture should we change, without being worried and losing what we like?

For crap's sake, if we can't feel rage and sorrow about a baby being buried alive, what can we feel rage and sorrow about?

That a lot of us, including my husband and I, who have lived through several arguements/discussion cycles, here and there and everywhere, are still timid and hesitant about doing something practical and small-scale and personal.

Feeling rage and sorrow over our own personal inactions--now that would be really radical (although not yet quite practical).

Language, fashion, cuisine, poetry, music, dance, the art-forms, these can all be kept. Just some weird ideas about women, sex, caste and heirarchy have to go.

Comon: Yes, everyone "has it bad" in India. Women just have it worse.

here we go again. another feminist.

A Feminist is a person who sees a "women's issue" in every issue.
A Radical Feminist is one who cannot see any issue other than a "women's issue".

By the shrillness of the original post and some comments, we have quite a few radicals here.

Language, fashion, cuisine, poetry, music, dance, the art-forms, these can all be kept. Just some weird ideas about women, sex, caste and heirarchy have to go.

Yeah, but I think it would need to be free from a top-down model by which things are imposed. That would be bad because it would be less likely that only bad things would be thrown our. We don't want to lose what is actually good because of following a model that doesn't understand or value things that are societal virtues

shrillness

Oh no, there we go again, the inevitable, dreaded S word.

A Feminist is a person who sees a "women's issue" in every issue. A Radical Feminist is one who cannot see any issue other than a "women's issue".

comon, you can't expect people to take you seriously when your own blind misunderstanding and hatred of "feminism" leads you to completely misdefine the political philosophy underlying the term.

SYLLABICATION: fem·i·nism

PRONUNCIATION: fm-nzm

NOUN: 1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. 2. The movement organized around this belief. [American Heritage]

Educate yourself. For all of our sakes.

A Feminist is a person who sees a "women's issue" in every issue. A Radical Feminist is one who cannot see any issue other than a "women's issue".

Shouldn't the words bra and burning be thrown in there somewhere?

"...it was explained to me by a Pakistani muslim that a family who "loses" something as precious as a daughter needs to be given a small token in place of that, as a symbolic compensation for the great loss. I was thinking, "the same kind of flowery language used to describe dowry in India as "a gift of money given to their precious daughter so that she enters the husband's house on an independent strong footing with wealth of her own".

Yes, romanticizing, flowery language issue aside, I am puzzled why this doesn't favorably influence the status of women in those societies.

And allowing for regional differences, in general, what practice do Indian Muslims adopt? Dowry? Or bride price?

Shouldn't the words bra and burning be thrown in there somewhere?

Don't forget unshaven pits and hairy legs. We hot-headed paisans don't believe in the oppression of our follicles.

I was scratching my head, wondering, "is this guy actually intimating that men have it BAD in India?",

There are definitely some who argue that they do.

I don't remember if I first came across thiswebsite on SM, or somewhere else, but it still blows me away.

oh please, elevate your education beyond dictionary definitions. The de facto meaning of feminism as it is practiced out there is not equality at all. It's about female supremacy. No reasonable person objects to equality. What i object to is the farce behind the demands of equality. just take a look at the public statements of Renuka Chowdhury, Girija Vyas, Brinda Karat, etc. It's scary to think what they say in private.

I was going through youtube, and I came across a video by Gurdas Maan taken in New Zealand. Gurdas Maan is one of the major people today responsible for transmitting punjabi culture. I doubt you would find a singer with as much straight-up love for his craft. Would Gurdas Maan be what he is as an entertainer if there was not a wide-spread Diaspora? living in the places we live, we get A LOT of out it, and there's a lot that is good about diaspora culture that is good because we immigrated. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Gurdas Maan is totally carrying out a strong Punjabi culture, but my guess is also that he would be for a lot of the positive things about the diaspora, as he travels there a lot and a lot of his most passionate fans are those who have also gone abroad

comon, your analogies are like someone saying that belief in racial equality is extremist and then quoting Farrakhan. Anything seems ridiculous if you take it to an extreme. Contemporary feminism is, in its most practiced form, fundamentally about a belief in the equality of genders. This also translates into a critical analysis of processes and systems that promote inequality, both actively and passively, because of internalized norms regarding the value of one gender or another. It is not about female primacy; it is about opening doors.

Elevate my education? How can you argue about a concept which you haven't even understood or defined properly? Instead of pretending feminism is whatever weirdness you think it is, why not consider accepting that it's not as evil or nefarious as you are implying?

You must be so worried about that female supremacy...it's horrible, the dowry demands put on sons, the abuse from father-in-laws, the pressure to have children of a certain gender, the infanticide. Oh, the horror. The horror!

WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE MEN, FOR ONCE?

*sob*

I'm all for sisterhood but also for oppressing my follicles and keeping the girls in check.

ANNA - see the links at my comment #166

Shouldn't the words bra and burning be thrown in there somewhere?

ANNA - see the links at my comment #166

I went to one of them and got a headache from the rampant stupidity, my life is too short for the other. Forgive me, my radical sister?

I went to one of them and got a headache from the rampant stupidity, my life is too short for the other. Forgive me, my radical sister?

No no nothing to forgive - it's just that sometimes the comments pile up so fast that I didn't want the links to get missed. But yeah - I got a similar headache. 'Tis nuts.

Fuerza Dulce, probably the most hilarious part of that spell-unbound Sushmita blog entry is the title: Sexiest Advertisement by Levi’s!!

Camille, I am all about feminism, so no complaints from me! (Although, I liked your freudian (should I say Jungian?) slip, It is not about female primacy; it is about opening doors.)

freudian (should I say Jungian?)

Rahul, am I super dense? I didn't get the Freudian element. I am so obtuse =/

No. Not Jungian, just Freudian as in when you mean to say one thing but instead say your mother, I mean another.

bess, that was very repressive, er, impressive!

it is about opening doors

Camille, I guess it isn't technically Freudian, the phrase reminded me of the usual "if they are so independent, why do they still expect us to hold doors open/give them our seats/pay on a date" response to the feminism discussions.

You must be so worried about that female supremacy...it's horrible, the dowry demands put on sons, the abuse from father-in-laws, the pressure to have children of a certain gender, the infanticide. Oh, the horror. The horror!

let me tell you about some real events you wouldn't experience in your north dakota bunker
- a wife's father demands from the son-in-law, 1 year and 4 months after the wedding "where is the flat [apt] your father promised during the wedding?"
- wife's mother and father tell the boy that he doesn't have much education, doesn't come from a well-to do family, and has no wealth of his own. He should be greatful that they married their daughter to him and he should do what their spoilt daughter tells him to do if he wants them off his back.

Of course, you'll blow this off as a one-off incident even if you believe it. the same way I could blow off your original post as a one-off incident. But when it comes to statistics, you don't want to talk about it, and I don't have any, because men won't admit to things like this. And abused men (there are many) will certainly never put on a F****ing show!

And abused men (there are many) will certainly never put on a F****ing show!

comon, do you mean, like this?

And abused men (there are many) will certainly never put on a F****ing show!

No, they just create organizations who claim that the women who pay them dowries are abusing them. www.saveindianfamily.org

comon, while your anecdotes are awful and merit sympathy, your misogyny is abhorrent. Good luck with things, man. It sounds like your feelings come from a place of deep anger, hurt, and hatred.

I view female choice of male partners much like a studio's choice of greenlighting a movie. After a serious and large vetting process, studios can still put out crappy movies.

Dude, HMF, I think the female choice problem is a little more restrictive. They can't count on the one Titanic or Pirates of the Caribbean to save them from the procession of Waterworlds and Giglis.

while your anecdotes are awful and merit sympathy, your misogyny is abhorrent. Good luck with things, man. It sounds like your feelings come from a place of deep anger, hurt, and hatred.

Camille, for what it's worth, you have my humble respect.

wife's mother and father tell the boy that he doesn't have much education, doesn't come from a well-to do family, and has no wealth of his own. He should be greatful that they married their daughter to him and he should do what their spoilt daughter tells him to do if he wants them off his back.

Haven't bahus been hearing the same thing from their in-laws for centuries now?

Anyway, to be fair, yes there are several cases of 401A abuses in India, and they need to be addressed and dealt with. However, that should in no way negate the cause for women's rights in India.

Personally I think high school students the world over should be required to take relatioship prep classes and learn something about the nature of love and compromise BEFORE they get married.

I think one cause for 401A abuses in India is the fact that most of these cases spring from arranged marriages where there is no real sense of love or sexual attraction for one's spouse. Let's face it, a woman in love with and sexually satisfied by a man does not want to lose him. However, a woman who had an arranged marriage to a man she does not even find appealing, much less get all ooey gooey eyed in love for, will be more likely to try to take advantage of him when she can, right? What is there to bind her to him in an emotional way?

Like I said before, all of this issues need to be dealt with FROM THE ROOT. And at the root of it usually tends to be attitudes towards sexuality, Freudian as it sounds.

the same way I could blow off your original post as a one-off incident

But that would make you wrong, because we all know it is most certainly NOT a one-off incident.

It would be one thing if you were pointing out that this isn't a one-sided issue, but you're not. You're so consumed with your strange bitterness, you're frothing at the mouth and you're hurting your "side" by not making sense. It's impossible to reason with those who lack it. We're done here.

Camille, for what it's worth, you have my humble respect.

Unfortunately, the only desi girl I've ever met who was DENIED the chance to go to college, b/c they thought it a waste of money, when they could marry her off instead? Punjabi.

I've never noticed that Punjabis are more retrograde in their views than other desis. Could it be that it is more of an issue of urban vs. rural backgrounds ?Those of you Punjabis with Scythian ancestry can take pride in the fact that your forbears would occassionally let the girls out for night on the steppe. One academic theory regarding the Amazons is that they may have been an actual Sarmatian/Scythian tribe where women fought alongside the men

This is the last of my attempts to work Scythians or Lemurians into a post about serious social issues, I promise..

This is the last of my attempts to work Scythians or Lemurians into a post about serious social issues, I promise..

Then we are lesser for THAT. :) I was enjoying it.

:This is the last of my attempts to work Scythians or Lemurians into a post about serious social issues, I promise.. Then we are lesser for THAT. :) I was enjoying it.

I'm back in business...the Masked Dravido-Lemurian of the New and Improved Sangam rides again !

Could it be that it is more of an issue of urban vs. rural backgrounds ?

And Punjabi women did used to fight side by side with men. There were also female generals. And now there is a huge gender bias. I guess this is what I was trying to get at when I mentioned looking at the history of gender-relations in Punjab -- they haven't been some kind of static unchanging oppressive thing, they've been dynamic and have changed considerably.

And Punjabi women did used to fight side by side with men. There were also female generals.

Not Punjabi, but Rani Lakshmibai of Jhansi is one of the prominent fighters of the 1857 mutiny.

Although she never took off her protective gear and yelled "No living man am I!".

Okay, no offence... but 192 comments for this worthless story? This kind of thing happens all the time in India and China... there's not exactly a mass action campaign to prevent it... yeah sure, pity the girl babies... just don't forget, we live in the West, lets not judge everything by Western standards. Not everyone has subsidized medical care, a 401k plan, two or three college degrees, a trust fund, etc. etc... some people (not in the West obviously) face the prospect of starvation on a daily basis. If they want to kill their girl babies because girls mean one less hand to till the soil (by hand, of course), that is their buisness. Not that it is ethically correct, but again, we don't live in their country - NONE of us faces economic depravation.

Anna and her stupid cheap sympathy threads!

LK1, if you're going to make an ignorant comment, I would recommend first reading the 192 that proceeded yours. We have discussed, at length, the aspect of economics and risk. If a "western standard" includes the belief that it is morally reprehensible to kill a child solely on the basis of his/her gender, and to do so in a disgusting and cruel manner, and to do so at a rate that has led to a huge gender imbalance in many Indian states, then I guess we're all Occidentalists. While this man may be a peasant, we've already discussed that son-preference is not unique to any one socioeconomic group or class, in the west and in India.

Also, there's no need to be rude. ANNA's threads are not stupid, and if you think they are and cannot find an intelligent way to express yourself about it, then kindly refrain altogether.

LK1 - What is the point of your comment? That we shouldn't talk about it, or try to understand it? Is sodomy the only crime worth getting upset about? Could you help edify me as to what kind of things in India and China we are allowed to talk about?

And were/are you like a child soldier in Sierra Leone or something? I am really scratching my head to figure out how somebody can be so absolutely lacking in empathy or any human grace.

Okay, no offence... but 192 comments for this worthless story?

Anna and her stupid cheap sympathy threads!

No offense, eh? Oh, none taken.

No offense, but you're banned. You've pushed past the limit of what's acceptable here. What you said about Sikhism a few weeks ago was bad enough, there's obviously no point in seeing where else you might go.

Thanks for banning that jerk. He'll be back with a different handle...but his rotten attitude will give him away. The guy is very understanding and compassionate towards perpetrators of hate crimes (although the victims tend to piss him off) as well as female feticide.

Chaudvin ka Chand is the bestest song evah!

But just for that, Rahul, I will go back and look up your fave song on my iPod.

I think a lot of us took a little trip to youtube after that!

So, here's a YouTube clip with far better sound quality, although Waheeda has a bit of a jaundiced tinge thanks to the unique coloring technology of the sixties, and the sole lotus in the pool looking like it got a wee bit of overdose of that good ol' food coloring (I love that shot of the ripples in the pond disturbing the reflection of the moon!).

If you can't make your point without abusive language, go elsewhere.

What is the point of your comment? That we shouldn't talk about it, or try to understand it? Is sodomy the only crime worth getting upset about? Could you help edify me as to what kind of things in India and China we are allowed to talk about?

And were/are you like a child soldier in Sierra Leone or something? I am really scratching my head to figure out how somebody can be so absolutely lacking in empathy or any human grace.

Rahul:

I think we do understand it? I also don't think its anything we have control over. Whereas a frivolous lawsuit is a different story. Maybe you see my logic here.

Rohit, I disagree. There are several ways in which this story can help: (1) Make people aware of the magnitude and aspects of the problem they were not aware of, (2) Provide an opportunity for people to relate to their own personal experiences, as has happened, (3) Potentially make some people evaluate their own attitudes and educate themselves on it, and (4) Maybe, motivate somebody to pursue action in various forms to ameliorate the problem, by either donation or volunteering. If even a few people on the thread benefit from some of these aspects, it is worthwhile. Now, as I said in an early comment, maybe I am Dukakis-like

I also disagree with you that the major issue in the cutting of the lock is that of a frivolous lawsuit. Independent of your personal point of view, the very fact that so many balanced people (even in the "enlightened", "secular", "American" audience) disagree over the implications and ramifications of that action should indicate to you that it could very well have been far more than a case of excessive rambunctiousness.

Now, as I said in an early comment, maybe I am Dukakis-like

That line got cut off. What I typed was:

Now, as I said in an early comment, maybe I am Dukakis-like in that I try/tend not be swayed by one specific story, but much prefer to understand the statistics or context as, personally, it helps me to formulate what I feel is a more productive response. But other people tend to react differently, viscerally, and that's their prerogative.

Anna :
Good luck with the adoption (not sarcasm). The more people adopt the better especially the ones who can afford.
Indifference is better than outrage aka fake sympathy. The reason I call it fake sympathy is because the ranter does nothing else beyond the talk. Quite like middle class / upper class indians railing against the political system but refusing to vote.
Are the outraged commenters willing to go to the under developed world (india/china) and change society? Not in most cases. I have not read one comment that provides a viable solution. Most solutions are vague generalities that don't go beyond high school debates. The words that I read are "should,must".
Outrage results in poor solutions. But outrage channelled into appropriate solutions works wonders.

An anecdote about Sushmita Sen that I read a few years ago was the judge refusing to sign the adoption because she was single and no man would marry her since she had an adopted child. Her father stepped in and said "I know that only a good man will want marry her coz no evil man will want a woman with an adopted child". The judge signed the papers. Anecdote may be false :)

Just a clarification : Did you mean that you are planning to adopt a girl from India or did you mean that you are adopting a girl from usa? In either case good luck.

(1) Make people aware of the magnitude and aspects of the problem they were not aware of

Awareness is overrated in this case. How many Desi's are actually unaware of the tendency for Indian parents to prefer boy babies over girl babies? This article is just about that tendency, taken to a logical (albeit unfortunate) conclusion.

(2) Provide an opportunity for people to relate to their own personal experiences, as has happened,

Its ingrained into the Indian psyche that boys are preferred over girls. Not that this is a wortwhile view, but Indians don't need therapy to realize it.

(3) Potentially make some people evaluate their own attitudes and educate themselves on it, and (4) Maybe, motivate somebody to pursue action in various forms to ameliorate the problem, by either donation or volunteering. If even a few people on the thread benefit from some of these aspects, it is worthwhile.

Its great that you can see so deeply into the issue, as opposed to extracting obtuse sympathy from it, via a childish outburst. And of course, your interest is genuine in the highest sense of the word. However, in the final analysis, I would have to say you are misguided. For one thing, this practice has been going on for thousands of years. When you till every acre of land with your bare hands, you need all the help you can get. Five girls in the family is clearly not beneficial to the situation. Of course, you can let the girls be born... but it doesn't make much difference - if you're already poor, and there's a famine, 2 or 3 them may easily die. Bizzare as it may seem to you, having boy babies is actually crucial to the economic livelihood of these dirt poor farmers.

Rohit, your reductionist argument about economics and farming are wrong. There are many farming societies which don't see the need to kill their girl babies. Read that Amartya Sen article I linked to. You might not agree with all of it, but it definitely points to the subtlety required to make a logically consistent argument on this issue, by evaluating pure economic or cultural arguments in the global context.

Also knowing about the existence of the issue, and being comfortable with it not to require therapy (???) are not the only point. There is the matter of figuring out why, and how it should be fixed.

I will quote the last paragraph of that article, written in 1990.

In view of the enormity of the problems of women's survival in large parts of Asia and Africa, it is surprising that these disadvantages have received such inadequate attention. The numbers of "missing women" in relation to the numbers that could be expected if men and women received similar care in health, medicine, and nutrition, are remarkably large. A great many more than a hundred million women are simply not there because women are neglected compared with men. If this situation is to be corrected by political action and public policy, the reasons why there are so many "missing" women must first be better understood. We confront here what is clearly one of the more momentous, and neglected, problems facing the world today.

As to how much one post changes things, I don't know. I always ask myself how much I must really care, and whether I couldn't actually be doing more good if I wasn't so comfortable with being comfortable, and actually got out into the real world and made a difference. Maybe I am just a moralizing bullshitter who prefers coffee-table conversations over concrete action. I don't know.

If you can't make your points without insulting those whom you disagree with, go elsewhere.

Additionally, further comments regarding how this is a "stupid topic" will be deleted, if only because we are in the 200 comment range and that indicates that people would like to discuss it. So far, it seems that first generation DBDs are opposed to discussing this, so violently opposed, that several have become abusive and were banned. Second generation ABDs have not voiced similar. I would like to point out that while everyone is welcome here, this is a second-generation blog with an American focus on diasporic issues. Please stop trying to ignore that.

Thanks, Rahul (for the song and for the Sen breakdown).

The reason I call it fake sympathy is because the ranter does nothing else beyond the talk. Quite like middle class / upper class indians railing against the political system but refusing to vote. Are the outraged commenters willing to go to the under developed world (india/china) and change society? Not in most cases.

In addition to adoption, even if the commentators here realize that so much of this is ingrained/unconscious, then maybe they will take positive action to voice their opposition to anti-girl attitudes and will change their own lifestyle habits (or pay more attention) in light of this. I know that sounds silly, but attitudes have to change somewhere, and it helps if your peer group is motivated to change their attitude, as well.

If they want to kill their girl babies because girls mean one less hand to till the soil (by hand, of course), that is their buisness. Not that it is ethically correct, but again, we don't live in their country - NONE of us faces economic depravation.

YOu know, I can't read this anymore. Enough. I'm not sure if you even really believe what you wrote, but regardless, you chose to put your insecurities and defensiveness above women's LIVES. I tried being reasoned and balanced above but it's obviously easier to obliterate viewpoints than to listen. Maybe I shouldn't be upset by what some anonymous people wrote, but the sheer forcefulness of the anti-woman wave in these comments has put me on the verge of tears. I am a woman. How dare you. How fucking DARE you.

Rohit, your reductionist argument about economics and farming are wrong. There are many farming societies which don't see the need to kill their girl babies.

Obviously, well off farmers will not kill their babies. I don't think I'm wrong about the economic context. Death is actually preferable to starvation. And yes, starvation is a real possibility... need I remind you that tens of thousands in India live with this possibility everyday. And many of these tens of thousands are farmers who have moved from the rural areas to the urban areas and end up sleeping in the streets, to find work because farming did not provide an adequate source of income. The problem is much bigger than a girl baby being buried in a field. In fact, the latter does not even begin to highlight the issue. Also, cultural stigma is strong in rural India. Dowry is prevalent. Not only will the family, but the girl, will become social outcastes if dowry is not paid. This, in turn, will further exacerbate the meager economic situation. Girl babies are not killed simply to obtain sympathy from CNN, even though CNN likes to think so, when it comes out with this sensationalist garbage once in a blue moon.

Also knowing about the existence of the issue, and being comfortable with it not to require therapy (???) are not the only point. There is the matter of figuring out why, and how it should be fixed.

Yes, if you want to introduce modern farming techniques. But I doubt that even this is a solution; I am willing to wager that the amount of land a poor farmer in India owns is very little. So even modern farming techniques would do little to increase output.

I will quote the last paragraph of that article, written in 1990.

In view of the enormity of the problems of women's survival in large parts of Asia and Africa, it is surprising that these disadvantages have received such inadequate attention. The numbers of "missing women" in relation to the numbers that could be expected if men and women received similar care in health, medicine, and nutrition, are remarkably large. A great many more than a hundred million women are simply not there because women are neglected compared with men. If this situation is to be corrected by political action and public policy, the reasons why there are so many "missing" women must first be better understood. We confront here what is clearly one of the more momentous, and neglected, problems facing the world today.

Men can work 12 or 16 hours straight in the fields. Men are capable of using the oxen to plow the land. Men do not have to give dowry when they marry. In the day to day survival of the patriarchal societies of these villages, no one is going to wait around for politicians or public policies to take care of his needs. These people are helping themselves, which is actually the best route. You learn from experience, and these people have 5000 years of it. No one cared until globalization came along; these people are ignoring globalization and still following the old cultural practices, which is fine.

As to how much one post changes things, I don't know. I always ask myself how much I must really care, and whether I couldn't actually be doing more good if I wasn't so comfortable with being comfortable, and actually got out into the real world and made a difference. Maybe I am just a moralizing bullshitter who prefers coffee-table conversations over concrete action. I don't know.

Poor people will do anything to survive. As long as its their family, and not anyone else's, no one has a right to interfere.

YOu know, I can't read this anymore. Enough.

Word. The comments on the past couple threads regarding females young and old are absolutely sick. And don't think I'm not familiar with the intricacies of development micro-econ because I am. And I'm quite familiar with the crowd for whom the children-as-an-investment-model paradigm appeals to their inner misogyny. If you want to go down that route to justify your misogyny just know that your conclusions are glossed-over incomplete horseshit social darwinist economics. If you try really hard, crunch numbers, create models and you still conclude that a woman has little implicit or explicit value if she can't till soil and thus should be sacrificed then YOUR MODELS AND THE CONCLUSIONS YOU DRAW FROM THEM ARE INCOMPLETE. I repeat, YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND YOUR MODELS ARE IDIOTIC.

ALJKLFJDIOSJFODFJKDFJLSJFLSJKFLJDLJOISFJLKFJLKJDL!!!!!!

Whew, ok, I'm calm now. We've got some work to do. ABD, DBD, PVC, DoD, BCBG, it doesn't matter. Find a misogynistic desi and engage them in a pleasant discourse regarding this topic and then yank that latent loutish lunacy out of them.

Anna, major props to your dad for calling a douchebag a douchebag. Sometimes there's no need to be civil.

Obviously, well off farmers will not kill their babies.

Secondly, for your argument to hold, you would have to look at comparable agrarian societies (e.g. countries within sub-Saharan Africa) and see if there is a similar prevalence of girl-child killing. Empirically, female infanticide doesn't exist to the same degree in those societies, and it is not because subsistence farmers in Africa are significantly richer than subsistence farmers in India. In the literature and from field experience we know that women in most sub-Saharan African countries are often kept from going to school so that they can work in the fields, where they work for 12-16 hours, often longer, just as their male counterparts do in other parts of the world. Your argument is based on assumptions on both the nature and value of women's work (i.e. that women are weaker, less productive, do not contribute to the work in the household). Your economic rationale does not hold. I am not being unsympathetic to the issue of agrarian poverty, or poverty more broadly, but it is ridiculous to argue that this phenomena is unique to economics or wealth.

Poor people will do anything to survive. As long as its their family, and not anyone else's, no one has a right to interfere.

EARTH TO ROHIT

YOUR MODELS AND THE CONCLUSIONS YOU DRAW FROM THEM ARE INCOMPLETE. I repeat, YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND YOUR MODELS ARE IDIOTIC.

I said this less eloquently above, but your economic "models/theories" do not hold water when tested against empirical data. That doesn't mean the data is wrong, it means your assumptions and your model are wrong, and so are your conclusions.

"Although she never took off her protective gear and yelled "No living man am I!".

That's because she never had to face a witch king :)

you chose to put your insecurities and defensiveness above women's LIVES...Maybe I shouldn't be upset by what some anonymous people wrote, but the sheer forcefulness of the anti-woman wave in these comments has put me on the verge of tears. I am a woman. How dare you. How fucking DARE you.

Word, Aanchal. Preach it. I'm amazed at the amount of deliberate ignorance we've seen about women in the last few days. I am upset by what some anonymous people wrote, too. I think we should be. These people are our community.

Trollish newbies who all seem overwhelmingly DBD: Instead of having a knee-jerk reaction which emanates from an unnecessary defensiveness of India and her culture, how about reading what people have tried to explain here? Also, newsflash-- India doesn't want or need insecure, jingoism-espousing defenders like you. She's strong enough to tolerate contradiction and complexity, too bad you aren't more like her.

So far, it seems that first generation DBDs are opposed to discussing this

Trollish newbies who all seem overwhelmingly DBD

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Let's not draw conclusions about the easily 100,000+ DBDs (or FOBs or green eyed martians, or whatever you'd like to call them) from the 10 or so people who have commented on this thread. Let me posit an alternative explanation: Maybe there are many ABDs who feel this way too, but it is culturally ingrained in them not to express their views in public, because they will immediately (and justifiably) get a lot of flak. Maybe the FOBs who feel the same way just don't know any better. And using the term DBDs when painting the group as knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers does not make your statements any less pejorative than if you use the term FOB or whatever.

Think about replacing some of your sentences to refer to some of the other groups we've been talking about, and see if you think those sentences would pass muster.

I don't want to derail the thread any more by going on and on about ABD examples of "jingoism-espousing defenders" etc., but I'd rather deal with individual commenters or comments or a particular attitude, than trying to tar and feather entire groups of people without any sound basis.

Nice work, No Von Mises. I do have one quibble though:

BD, DBD, PVC, DoD, BCBG

Did you mean CBGB?

Maybe there are many ABDs who feel this way too, but it is culturally ingrained in them not to express their views in public, because they will immediately (and justifiably) get a lot of flak.

There is some truth to this (not necessarily pertaining to this post). Thanks for recognizing this. Some of my views are probably more in line with some DBDs (again, not necessarily in this thread), but sometimes I hesitate to express them because overall I enjoy a very friendly, warm dialogue with most people on this site, and that's more important to me (being a reasonably well-respected member of this community) than to get into big fights with people for no purpose, just for the sake of making my point or forcefully expressing my views. And, as above (comment #150), sometimes I can't even defend my own views too well...but I'm not ashamed to admit that. In general, I'm willing to change my views on things if people are convincing enough. But getting back to what you said, there could definitely be an element of some ABDs like me holding back on expressing everything we feel, for fear of the 'flak' that could result. I try to choose my words carefully, but where I feel it's important, I will state exactly what I think.

That's because she never had to face a witch king

Like this?

Also, newsflash-- India doesn't want or need insecure, jingoism-espousing defenders like you. She's strong enough to tolerate contradiction and complexity, too bad you aren't more like her.

Well-said!

Yesterday while reading about Gurdas Mann, I read on Wiki that his son goes to Eton in the UK, and likely Gurdas Mann has taken up the benefit of the diaspora. Good for him, and its quite a model

I think its a different thing to say that in India, say Punjab, that one can tackle this with a discussion of the inherent misogyny of the social dynamics. Maybe I'm wrong here. But I feel the freedom to do this kind of introspection is something one can find better in, for lack of a better term here, the OECD countries, particularly in Western Europe and the anglosphere. The anglosphere being maybe the most free part of a very imperfect world. It could be that is a tremendous over-statement, but, maybe it's not

That's why I think a whole-hearted push to make India more like the OECD societies is something more broad; that would automatically work its way towards anti=caste and anti-women policies. Just today I read another incident where in Punjab a woman was paraded naked in her village; presumably it was a caste issue as well as an issue of misogyny.

Misogyny is not just behind these actions, these actions spur misogny; these are dehumanizing acts that cause likely chain-reactions

Its simply untenable to deny that South Asian society needs changing, its flawed. Its not working for everyone. Speaking as someone who loves Punjabi culture, Indian culture, and South Asian culture

ps - is there any period of desi movie songs that matches the 50'60's?

Another example of a pure Punjabi singer who did so much for his culture, who also was invested in the Diaspora was Surjit Bindhraki

This video is awesome

Maybe, in the general case of Punjabis and probably other communties, its valid to say that, in terms of Punjab, the general attitude of society has bought lock-stock-and-barrel into the idea that there is something good about the countries of Europe and the anglosphere, and these include issues of caste, race, and gender, as well as corruption and education. If Punjabis aren't coming here, they are communicating with family members who have, and generally people like it (even given the tremenous pressures and pains they face)

sorry for the format error...

Thanks, Rahul (for the song

I don't know much about much, but I'm happy to steer people in the right direction :P

is there any period of desi movie songs that matches the 50'60's?

You meant Hindi :) I think the corresponding period for Tamil music is the late 70s to mid 80s, during Ilayaraaja's halcyon period.

For those of you who don't know, Anna's sister is in Iraq right now, slaughtering babies (and entire families) by the dozen. Therefore it is amusing to see Anna sobbing over a baby left to die by a poor farmer who couldn't afford to raise her.

What is it with people and their nasty ad-hominem attacks? "Observer", that was beyond uncalled for, and completely irrelevant to the current discussion.

to those of u asked me why i married the guy with such thoughts; well I had no idea he had such thoughts. you normally dont talk with your "prospective" about such things and it was an arranged marraige, so i met him just 3-4 times n mostly in the company of parents and relatives. as to why i still stay with him yes i am considering going back. i just needed a strong enough reason as his parents are very nice to me. trying their best to accomodate me as im from a very different background (they are extremely traditional). im being very cautious because it will cause them extreme distress and sadly his dad is a heart patient.

observer: For those of you who don't know, Anna's sister is in Iraq right now, slaughtering babies (and entire families) by the dozen. Therefore it is amusing to see Anna sobbing over a baby left to die by a poor farmer who couldn't afford to raise her.

Rahul: What is it with people and their nasty ad-hominem attacks? "Observer", that was beyond uncalled for, and completely irrelevant to the current discussion.

Not to mention incorrect.

"observer", is that all you've got? She is doing no such thing, not that I owe someone like you an explanation. I'm also sickened by how you characterized the callous disposal of this two-day old baby; she was not "left to die", she was BURIED ALIVE. Are you so consumed with hating on me that you can't read? Shame on you.

My sister does not blog here. She does not blog anywhere. If you have a problem with me, take it up with me, not my family members who have nothing to do with this.

For anyone who believes that the sex-ratio in India is not being noticed by the Govt. of India at its highest levels, you need to read the 11th 5-year plan (2007-2012) which explicitly states as one of its objectives to rectify this problem:

Improve sex ratio to 935 by 2011-12 and to 950 by 2016-17 (wikipedia.org)

A N N A, if "Observer" has a problem with your opinions, he/she should make that point. Resorting to personal attacks is the last resort of somebody who has realized that they are incapable of making convincing arguments in support of their viewpoint. You know the "other side" has lost the debate when this is the best they can come up with. I don't think it is necessary or justified for you to deflect these vicious attacks on your (uninvolved) sister by inviting or deflecting them onto yourself.

pooja, I am not good with expressing empathy for people I don't know (I would also never have dared to ask you the questions which some of these people posed without actually talking to you), and I hope I don't sound platitudinous, but good luck with whatever decision you make, and focus on your personal wellbeing while doing so. The most impactful aspects of some of these latest posts, for me at least, have been the tramautic personal experiences that people have shared. It is one thing to know about these issues in the abstract, and understand the aggregates as I have tried to, but it is a whole another ballgame to see deserving people have their lives turned upside down because of irrational biases.

>"observer", is that all you've got? She is doing no such thing, not that I owe someone like you an explanation. I'm also sickened by how you characterized the callous disposal of this two-day old baby; she was not "left to die", she was BURIED ALIVE. Are you so consumed with hating on me that you can't read? Shame on you. >

Listen ANNA:

Your sister joined a war thats gotten over 150,000 Iraqi's killed in less than 6 years. Your sister WILLINGLY joined that war, meaning she WILLINGLY supports the VIOLENT methods being used to IMPLEMENT it. Also, your sister is TRAINED to kill. TRAINED to be impassive to death. Are you going to lie and say she doesn't carry a gun? And yes, the US Army does kill Iraqi civilians; every Army does it - an ARMY is a KILLING MACHINE.

Now, why don't you start a thread for all the Iraqi babies who die/are neglected everyday because of a war YOUR sister willingly participates in?

Why don't you start a thread for the 500,000 Iraqi children who died due to US/Britain (your sister's MASTERS) economic sanctions of Iraq during Saddam's time?

I know why! Because you, possessing such a craving for attention, would rather start a thread focused on a single baby, a TOTALLY isolated incident, just so you can feel better! Here's some advice: GROW UP! Reality doesn't revolve around you and your irrelevent feelings!

You know nothing. My sister is not in the Army and she was in the military long before this war was a glimmer in our useless president's eye. Now go beat out your hate erection and stop spewing your incorrect rantings here. Talk about irrelevance...no one wants to read you.

You don't know my sister so don't talk about her, if only because you have been wrong about every shitty thing you have accused her of. And that really does make you an asshole.

Learn how to read-- a long-time reader POSTED this story to the newstab, while other readers sent it in because they wanted to see it and discuss it on this site, which is well within their rights. You're so consumed with your stupid negativity, you have to dismiss the truth-- this is not an isolated incident. It happens. Our readers were upset by it. So yeah, obviously I pulled this story out of my ass and wrote about this news to get attention. Get over your irrational hate for me.

And abused men (there are many) will certainly never put on a F****ing show!

post # 180, comon: I am surprised that you think that it's easy for women to "put on a show." Given the huge under-reporting of rape, harassment in the workplace, and child abuse, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. It is not easy to speak up (even)when when you're bring groped forcefully in public, or being harassed on the street.

I pride myself on being an independent woman who has been exposed to a fair bit of feminist thinking, and yet I'm ashamed to say that I've never called out a male for acting like a jerk (and believe me there have been several occasions when I should have). This includes family friends, relatives, and your average joe on the street. I've actually cried and begged people not to intervene precisely because I was afraid of confrontation and did not want to "make a scene." And this inability to confront this sort of behavior allows these persons to continue without impunity because they never face any censure or consequences.

Once, shopping in a busy Delhi bazaar as a child, I saw a woman actually yell at a guy for pinching her ass and groping her breasts. All activity ceased around us for a moment, and people were mesmerized by this raging woman, who was middle-aged and not what you would call super-attractive. Basically, pretty much all the adults around me were thinking that this woman was being unnecessarily touchy and no one really stood up for her. Another time a sixteen year old cousin of mine was standing on the street and some guy casually walked up to us and slapped her bottom hard. I was about ten or so and completely taken aback by his brazenness. Lots of people saw that and no one cared. She herself thought that it was some younger cousin horsing around and couldn't react in time. These are but a few incidents that I (a girl from a fairly "sheltered" upper-middle class family, you can extrapolate from that how much more crap women have to face if they have access to even fewer resources and less-supportive social networks ) saw and ever since then I've always been hesitant to speak up when I face idiots like this in public (be it in the clubs of DC or the streets of Delhi).

In conclusion, fellow-women, put on a show if you need to. You have my support and admiration. I know it's hard and embarrassing (and people will dismiss you for it sometimes and call you a shrill hag), but we need to take back the streets. It'll be a sweet day when we can be out walking by ourselves in some random park on a moonlit night, without our families worrying that we'll never be back. I wait for the day when people will let their daughters stay out as late as their sons. When women will not have to hesitate before signing up for the night shift. When it'll be okay to wear whatever you please without being called a slut. When either men stop appearing shirtless in public or no one raises their eyebrows when women go topless (no, I'm not being facetious).

I wait for the day when... it'll be okay to wear whatever you please without being called a slut. When either men stop appearing shirtless in public or no one raises their eyebrows when women go topless (no, I'm not being facetious).

i wait for the day when the word slut is eradicated from everybody's vocabulary. i hate its implications - that people are judged for their sexual activity - as well as the fact that it is predominantly only used to judge women. as for female toplessness - i think a canadian woman, several years ago, successfully rallied for the right of women to be treated equally as their fellow male citizens in this regard.

re the comments lamenting the 'waste of space' on this topic - i think it's horrific that anybody feels they have the right to kill a two-day old baby, no matter what the gender, no matter what the reason. i do not discount the economic and social burdens prevailing on this family, but in the absence of a total turnaround in the mentality towards this circumstance, i hope that more communities come up with some sort of alternative. i know in some indian locailities - salem in TN, for instance - there are venues to give up your child, no questions asked, just as fire stations serve the same purpose in the states. even if that child's life might not be perfect under this route, at least he/she would have the option of living that life.

My sister is not in the Army and she was in the military long before this war

The army is a branch of the military.

You don't know my sister so don't talk about her, if only because you have been wrong about every shitty thing you have accused her of. And that really does make you an asshole.

Sorry to break it to you, Abu Grahib wasn't one of those shopping expeditions you like to feature all over flixster. By the way, if the loss of life bothers you so much, how do you tolerate your sister being in the army?

Learn how to read-- a long-time reader POSTED this story to the newstab, while other readers sent it in because they wanted to see it and discuss it on this site, which is well within their rights. You're so consumed with your stupid negativity, you have to dismiss the truth-- this is not an isolated incident. It happens. Our readers were upset by it. So yeah, obviously I pulled this story out of my ass and wrote about this news to get attention. Get over your irrational hate for me.

Excuse me but your DESPERATE need for SYMPATHY shows clearly enough in the following words:

I am so livid, I can barely type. Because of this immutable fact, I will warn you that I will shut this thread down if:

If “Maximum City” gets mentioned. I beg you, this is not the place.
I get asked, “why didn’t you post about immigration/terrorism/the story I sent in four times, instead of this predictable infanticide story?”
If one of you says this makes us look bad.

As far as I'm concerned, you're the ONLY blogger who would post a story threatening to ban people who spoke against it. CLEAR and incontrovertible evidence of your insecurity. It doesn't matter who sent the story in, the way you posted it, centering around your supposed "lividness" says everything. You were so "livid" you felt the need to ban dissenters. This shows why your sympathy is fake; personally I don't even think you care about the baby, you just wanted to ban people and in the process gain attention!

And allowing for regional differences, in general, what practice do Indian Muslims adopt? Dowry? Or bride price?

Its dowry all the way for Indian Muslims. Some of them of course have moved away from this practice but its still pretty common. Dowry is similarly common in Pakistan as well.

Dude, Observer, chill out. Your critique has nothing to do with the post/topic at hand -- it's just an excuse to lampoon ANNA. If you can't engage in civil dialogue, then why are you here? Even if you had made a more cogent connection between the War and this incident (which would be a stretch and absolutely need not include ANNA's sister or ANNA's family for that matter), what purpose would it serve?

I'm not surprised ANNA had to ask that people refrain from making specific comments because, in case you haven't noticed, there seems to be some kind of stupidity virus flying around that makes people think that the anonymity of the internet allows them to be vicious and off-topic, particularly when it comes to anything ANNA posts. If you don't like what you're reading, then stop reading SM, or stop reading ANNA's posts, or better yet, start your own blog and post about your feelings.

All these Anna hating posts just serve to re-confirm the premise of this blog. They are shining cyber examples that gender bias is alive in well in the real world of Desi 2007.

239 · Desi Feminista on July 8, 2007 06:46 PM · Direct link All these Anna hating posts just serve to re-confirm the premise of this blog. They are shining cyber examples that gender bias is alive in well in the real world of Desi 2007.

Sorry to break it to you, but this has nothing to do with anti-feminism. Neither does the article have anything to do with feminism. Dirt-poor villagers don't give a rats ass about feminism. If feminism put food on the table, they would be all for it.

Swati said...

Why do people assume that its envy? Is it the same people who are so sure the blogger is a female, so its natural to assume one woman can't say anything to another woman without it arising out of jealousy?

In today's media saturated culture, people who crave attention whether its famous people or people who think they should be famous like this girl ANNA (given her nutty online "empire") should usually expect a backlash or criticism based on that. I really don't have any sympathy for ANNA and find her trite and overwelmingly meaningless. And if someone made up a blog to comment on ridiculous they think other people are, then that's their right. You fools (the ones so offended by this) make up blogs everyday.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:51sVyTIJFOEJ:unsuitablegal.blogspot.com/2007/05/nice-dose-of-hypocrisy-with-my-morning.html+Anna,+Swati&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Sorry to break it to you, but this has nothing to do with anti-feminism. Neither does the article have anything to do with feminism. Dirt-poor villagers don't give a rats ass about feminism. If feminism put food on the table, they would be all for it.

Feminism promotes educating women, respecting their opinions, legacies, and stories. This has actually improved cultures and civilizations far more than most people would like to admit because of their own insecurities and prejudice. Dirt poor villagers wouldn't be burying live babies if they realized women and men have equal worth in education, the job market, and family. Feminism brings it to the table, maybe you just choked on it.

"Anna" probably feels great that this thread got 240 replies. The real reason? 95% of the rest of the site is also filled with her attention deficit disorder spawned lunacy. Talk about "selection."

The idiots need some serious introspection. The patheticness never fails to amaze. Get a life already you losers. And ANNA, just ignore the bastards.

Anyway, Sahej, Gurdas Maan is great, but I feel a lot of his talent was squandered on poor songs and albums. I don't know all his stuff, but his stand-out tracks (to me) are Ki Banu Duniya Da, Taun Surahi Vargi, Punjabiye Zubaaney, Sajna Ve Sajna, Challa, Inj Nahin Karinde, Apna Punjab, and maybe a few others that are escaping my mind right now. By the way, he has been critical of women for failing to adhere to tradition, and also for adopting snobby attitudes and looking down on Punjabi and Hindi (and being too proud of speaking English).

I just found this video on youtube recently. It's one of my favorite songs of his, and even though the video is corny, I encourage everyone to watch it.

"Anna" probably feels great that this thread got 240 replies.

I like how you put that in quotes like that's "allegedly her name". I can't imagine what dull lives a few of you lead, that you feel the need to obsess about a blogger you don't even know. If you have such a problem with her, don't read her, in fact ignore her-- hate is the flip-side of love.

This thread is past the point of saving. To those who actually discussed the issues instead of personally attacking others, thanks.