I heard they kept out Sri Lankan diplomats who came to demand justice for "visa problems"

This is very sad.

Sick to my stomach. Today, I will buy venezuelan oil from a Citgo. Oh, wait, can't do that either.

Its not surprising that Saudi Arabia wants to behead 17 year old girls when conservatives on the United States Supreme Court want to give the death penalty to juveniles in America. Justice Scalia especially poo pooed the reliance on Amnesty International type prohibitions cited by Vinod here. The case was Roper v. Simmons

Damn, can't buy gas from Texas Sweet Crude either. Running out of options here.

I lived in Saudi Arabia back in the early 90's for a good part of my childhood ... and I can still remember how detested we Indians were by the locals there... As an immigrant, the rule of thumb was - if you happen to get involved with something unlawful, whether by accident or intentional, you are Done For - and there is nothing anyone can do about it. One of my relatives was involved in an accident, where he hit a young arab boy ... we didn't even know about it for the entire 2 months he spent in prison for it, trying to defend himself.

Adding to the monstrosity that they call the 'justice system' is the fact that immigrants find it hard to pick up Arabic.... and ultimately due to the language barrier, you don't even have your own self to defend yourself against accusations.

The 'justice' system lies in the hands of hardline islamic priests, and if you have lived in such a country, you will know how much power these 'mullahs' command over the public...and how much fear they produce in the lives of immigrants. All a desi has in Saudi is fellow desis ... for friendship, comfort and sanity. Too bad that does no good when you are involved with the law.

I just hope this poor girl's life is saved in time.

The girl is Muslim not that it would matter.

Saudi Arabia has an especially barbaric criminal law system for everybody but the rich and the connected Saudis. It might be one of the worst places to commit a crime if you are a commoner.

It might be one of the worst places to commit a crime if you are a commoner.

You mean, to be accused of committing a crime.

You mean, to be accused of committing a crime.

True.

And will the world's moral and human rights leader - US/UK/West invade Saudi Arabia for human right violations and dictatorship in Saudi Arabia ? Leave invasion why not have sanctions like they go overboard with nuclear weapons and whole lot of other issues. No they won't because the entire west is all cozy with Saudi Arabian kings for oil and their purchase for all kinds of defence products. So from the developing/poor country's perspective all the human right activitism ( good for the world and is needed/necessary ) is nothing but hypocrisy of the civilized west

I'm against in the death penalty in the US, but ACFD, I don't think your comparison is fair. There's difference between the US case where "At age 17, respondent Simmons planned and committed a capital murder. After he had turned 18, he was sentenced to death. " and this South Asian child in Saudi, who has no legal representation and no way to defend herself.

I feel that when you make the comparison to the US case, it minimizes the horrible injustice this child is going through and the horrible injustice that minorities in Saudi face.

I'm against in the death penalty in the US, but ACFD, I don't think your comparison is fair. There's difference between the US case where "At age 17, respondent Simmons planned and committed a capital murder. After he had turned 18, he was sentenced to death. " and this South Asian child in Saudi, who has no legal representation and no way to defend herself.

I did not equate the incidents. I said I am not surprised considering the fact if the US which has a far more humane and civilized legal system than Saudi Arabia would have advocates for putting the mentally ill and juvenile to deaths its really not that surprising that a country with a primitive legal system like Saudi Arabia would behead 17 year olds.

The US legal system is far better than the one in Saudi Arabia and I would never contest that.

I have huge problems with the death penalty in america, as evidenced by the man in georgia who may die tomorrow for a crime in which witnesses have recanted testimony (though the witnesses present at the time of the crime have not), but this is purely monstrous. the girl most probably did nothing wrong and was by luck person around when the baby choked. For that of course, her south asian life, muslim or not, is worthless enough in saudi arabia that she shall lose her life. screw defense attorneys and that human rights bs,this be the oil rich saudi kingdom, we do what we want biotch.

Randomizer "I lived in Saudi Arabia back in the early 90's for a good part of my childhood ... and I can still remember how detested we Indians were by the locals there"

How did they express their detestation? What brought your family there? I'd be interested to hear more details.

This makes me so angry and so angry that the Indian embassy is so impotent there.

I was in Oman a year ago and we visited a cousin of my mom's who'd been living there for the past 25 years; He didn't come with a professional degree, and built a car repair business. Now he is doing well financially and he says it's a good place to live. I remember his Driver was an Arab boy. But I also know he said that, as a Hindu, you don't have the same freedoms as the Muslims there. Maybe Oman is better than Saudi as far as its laws for foreigners.

http://digg.com/

its currently on the front page of digg , help her out by please digging it . Also email your senators and reps.

SkepMod, the major companies that you have to boycott is Mobil and Shell. More info on the companies operating in the Saudi can be found here
Yes we should buy Citgo..alteast Hugo inspite of all leftist shenanigans which US hates is surely not as bad as Saudis

when conservatives on the United States Supreme Court want to give the death penalty to juveniles in America. Justice Scalia especially poo pooed the reliance on Amnesty International type prohibitions cited by Vinod here.

the conservatives on SCOTUS wanted to uphold your right to vote. nothing in their opinion indicated they favored executing individuals who committed a crime while they were a juvenile.

scalia also noted that international law are more restrictive on abortion, and asked why they were not invoked by the majority in abortion cases.

I said I am not surprised considering the fact if the US which has a far more humane and civilized legal system than Saudi Arabia would have advocates for putting the mentally ill and juvenile to deaths its really not that surprising that a country with a primitive legal system like Saudi Arabia would behead 17 year olds

I think I understand where you're coming from but I don't share your sentiments. The US case, where it was proven that the child had planned murder and had lawyers defending him, doesn't mitigate my surprise (more like horror) about what happens to immigrants in Saudi...this child probably had nothing to do with the child's death.

The US legal system is far better than the one in Saudi Arabia and I would never contest that - Yes, that is for sure

It so saddens me that these Indians don't have other choices b/c of poverty than going to that god-forsaken "kingdom"

The US legal system is far better than the one in Saudi Arabia and I would never contest that

All the same, Saudi Arabia is essentially a US protectorate - more than that, the current regime there was established with US involvement. The US could do much more to moderate the excesses of the Saudi justice system than it actually does. Sometimes I wonder if the difference between Texas-style justice and Saudi-style justice (two oil-rich, largely desert areas) is more cosmetic than real.

i should add, i'm opposed to the death penalty too. but the constitution does not necessarily endorse my personal moral thinking

@PS #14:

The Middle-east was and continues to be a very attractive destination for South Indians, especially the coastal regions of Kerala and Karnataka. Almost every family in Kerala / Mangalore /Hyderabad has at least one member in either of Kuwait/Saudi/Dubai/Bahrain/Oman ... The trend is still very much alive. Obviously, the main reason people go to the gulf is for the money. Taxes are either non-existent or incredibly low because the Royal family is so darn well off. And as has always been the trend with diaspora, family brings more family, and so you see tons of ppl from the south here. Somehow don't remember many North Indians there.

Anyways, local Arabs hate immigrants ... and especially desis (as is the trend even in places like Singapore)... for reasons ranging from 'they steal our jobs' to 'they speak weird languages' to 'dark skinned' ... and so on. As for the Hate, I can give you only ones associated with my childhood ... I've no idea what my parents went through. Arab kids in my building used to actually try to *spit* on us ... even on my parents at times. And as all immigrants in Saudi who 'don't want any trouble', we'd just try to ignore them. Even though our interaction with the locals was kept to a minimum (we went to an Indian school), the few interactions we did have were often racist, spiteful or condescending. We have had mullahs coming up to my dad and telling him to tell my mom to cover her hair with a scarf, so on ...

I have tons of more stories to tell about life in Saudi as a desi ... will add more if the thread remains active ...

Leave invasion why not have sanctions like they go overboard with nuclear weapons and whole lot of other issues. No they won't because the entire west is all cozy with Saudi Arabian kings for oil and their purchase for all kinds of defence products

We will have to buy oil from Saudi to run all those war machines in order to invade Saudi :) If we impose sanctions then the defence companies are going to run out of business

This makes me sick to da stomach. I know UK Pakistani and Indian lads who are out there now, livin the high life and making bucks whilst some of their brothers and sisters are sweating buckets to make riyads/rupees. They are pig ignorant to it all.

Randomizer, #21

Thanks for answering me. How horrible. I do hope you share more stories of your experiences there. Does your experience influence you sympathies on Arab discrimination in the US? I know, I know, I know, that it doesn't matter what happens anywhere else...if any citizen in the US is discriminated against than it is terrible for everyone. But I am human and sometimes, sometimes, when I hear horror stories like this, I find myself becoming racist too; but I can pull myself out of that narrow-minded way of thinking. That is another danger of groups discriminating other groups, I suppose.

And will the world's moral and human rights leader - US/UK/West invade Saudi Arabia for human right violations and dictatorship in Saudi Arabia ? Leave invasion why not have sanctions like they go overboard with nuclear weapons and whole lot of other issues. No they won't because the entire west is all cozy with Saudi Arabian kings for oil and their purchase for all kinds of defence products. So from the developing/poor country's perspective all the human right activitism ( good for the world and is needed/necessary ) is nothing but hypocrisy of the civilized west

1. if this is true, why not just cozy up to saddam, ie remove the sanctions b/f the war and allow saddam to sell more oil and presumably buy more equipment form the US to do so. wouldn't this be the real oil interest. may help explain why big oil did not clamor for war.

2. my understanding is that oil is a stateless commodity, ie, it has to enter the world market to be priced so it doesn't matter who holds it. also, since the US consumes a quarter of the oil, an arab dictator boycotting the US would hurt himself more than the US. (i don't believe opec has the power or controls nearly the same % of oil it did in 1973.)

Like Randomizer i lived my entire childhood till my late teens in Qatar. I've seen first hand the arabs spite for Desis. And I have thousands of stories about abuses suffered by South asian maids and laborers in these lands. The problem is really bad in the Persian Gulf countries which does not speak for the entire Arab nation. The backbone of this country are South Asians. From India its mainly the Southern states (read: Kerala) that produces the highest number for the workforce. 18 years in the country and i did not have one arab kid of my age who i could call friend. These places still have a colonial mentality as far as preference for white skinned individuals go. I still call the place 'home' but its now just a word.

Oil sold on world markets-->smallish % boycott of Saudi oil = zero effect.

Most of you know that--but it came up several times.

@PS #24: "Does your experience influence you sympathies on Arab discrimination in the US?"

In America, if an Arab is discriminated, I see it as a White system discriminating against Brown men, i.e. people like me. So Arabs and Desis fall into the same category from an American viewpoint... and quite obviously, I sympathise with the Arabs.

Just like Kesh in #26 calls Qatar 'home', I have mixed emotions about Saudi ... I had some great times there as a kid, but that was probably only because I never had to face the trials of being in a racist workplace, or because I have otherwise never had to deal with society at all... I guess the biggest advantage of having lived in these places is that I know first hand what it is like in Muslim countries, and know how deeply ingrained in their everyday life religion is... and the value they attach to it. For instance, I was really able to understand the outcry over the Danish cartoons on Prophet Muhammad... while most of the west couldn't really understand anything beyond 'freedom of speech'.

Saudi is in urgent need of reform, but reform can only come from within.

if this is true, why not just cozy up to saddam, ie remove the sanctions b/f the war and allow saddam to sell more oil and presumably buy more equipment form the US to do so. wouldn't this be the real oil interest. may help explain why big oil did not clamor for war.

This website cleary explains how France, Germany and Russia were real beneficiaries of Saddam and not US and wonder how much of jumping to war with Iraq was influenced by this. Also read this about US interests in Iraqi oil

Also what you say is what US partly did in the 80s. Remember the Iran-Iraq that raged on for a decade. Who supported the Iraqis - It was US. Where were the human right/dictatorship issues when they supported Iraq against Iran ? Why a different yardstick and different kind of stick to beat each country in the Gulf ?

my understanding is that oil is a stateless commodity, ie, it has to enter the world market to be priced so it doesn't matter who holds it. also, since the US consumes a quarter of the oil, an arab dictator boycotting the US would hurt himself more than the US. (i don't believe opec has the power or controls nearly the same % of oil it did in 1973.)

The US does influence the OPEC countries pricing albeit indirectly. The major US oil companies who invest in the oil fields also influence the pricing. Syriana is an excellent movie that highlights this nexus. If human rights is such a big cause of concern for the west they should have no dealing with Saudis.

To make some extra money, I was teaching ESL at night and one of my students was a Saudi girl; She told me how she loved the indian clothes gagra cholis, etc and would where them for parties. And I have heard in other parts of the ME (don't know about Saudi) that Bollywood is big. It would be so great if one of these bollywood stars brought attention to the plight of immigrants (many of whom are desis) in the ME.

Can't you just see Aishwarya Rai in a public service announcement about knowing your rights as an immigrant laborer in the ME?

I say this with the most respect, but I hate Saudi Arabian culture.

And they do all this because it is home to Mecca and black gold. You cant do a damn thing to them because all of the Muslims in the world would crap their pants in anger if someone other then a Muslim stepped on foot in their "holy" land. It make's me sick to think that my life depends on this country and its oil.

On a happy note,Saudi Arabia is on pace to break their record for most beheadings in a year.

Oil sold on world markets-->smallish % boycott of Saudi oil = zero effect. Most of you know that--but it came up several times

If boycott/sanctions doesn't have any effect they why do it with Iran ? If it works for Iran it will work with Saudi too. If invasion works with Iraq then it will work with Saudi too. Choice of method and degree of method is all but a play of self-interest rather than any human right/dictatorship issues. But obviously if you want to look yourself morally and "civiliazationally" superior in the eyes of the American public and campared to the rest of the world, yes you have to talk about such human right issues and not your capitalistic self-interests.

Kudos to Vijay Prashad in creating a "pan-brown identity" where one does not exist. From the same person I see the following comments:

Anyways, local Arabs hate immigrants ... and especially desis

In America, if an Arab is discriminated, I see it as a White system discriminating against Brown men, i.e. people like me.

This website cleary explains how France, Germany and Russia were real beneficiaries of Saddam

that's what i'm saying. cozy up to saddam so he'd deal directly with US companies like he did with france, etc. plus, if you got rid of the sanctions, saddam could sell more oil.

Also what you say is what US partly did in the 80s. Remember the Iran-Iraq that raged on for a decade. Who supported the Iraqis - It was US. Where were the human right/dictatorship issues when they supported Iraq against Iran ? Why a different yardstick and different kind of stick to beat each country in the Gulf ?

where were the human rights issues when the US aligned with the soviets in order to defeat the nazis. same logic.

I'm sorry to hear this story. A friend of mine spent part of his childhood in Kuwait- and mentioned some friction but nothing so drastic as #21, he's from Kerela as well. #28 I can appreciate how your feelings are aware of the context,location. It never fails to 'raise my eyebrow' when someone who has been on the receiving end of discrimination, turns around and blindly repeats it.

1. if this is true, why not just cozy up to saddam, ie remove the sanctions b/f the war and allow saddam to sell more oil and presumably buy more equipment form the US to do so. wouldn't this be the real oil interest. may help explain why big oil did not clamor for war.

Further to Kris's comments at #29,I'm guessing It wouldn't look to good if they clamoured in the public space, if any clamouring was done. But your point is taken. Interesting reading here from an IMF/World bank 'watch dog' vis a vis Iraq and our friend Paul Wolfowitz, in his former capacity

2.my understanding is that oil is a stateless commodity, ie, it has to enter the world market to be priced so it doesn't matter who holds it.

Could be that phase has ended, or it may matter who/where the parties are. I've read several stories not about "China's" Mercantilism in Africa as regards natural resources, including oil--in this case it's not going to the highest price on the world market.

Some countries, including Angola, have gone as far as specifying a fixed rate of return on investments, beyond which almost all profits go to the government. But such deals lead inevitably to rows about what counts as a legitimate expense on which a profit should be earned.
Source: The Economist in a story about oil rich states not nesscarliy getting the best deal for their oil. More here

Choice of method and degree of method is all but a play of self-interest rather than any human right/dictatorship issues

they both play in the equation. in general democracies are harshest toward those dictatorships that pose a self-interest problem, friends with dictatorships that are aligned with their interests, and do not go to war with other democracies regardless of self-interest.

Kris#32

Uhhh--you didn't speak to my point--I didn't say anything pro-Iran boycott or pro Iraq invasion.
And drawing a sharp distinction between morality and capitalism is, shall we say, controversial at best.
This poor girl is going to get her head chopped, and you want to turn it into a forum for Socialist bashing of the US....

Huh?

my understanding is that oil is a stateless commodity, ie, it has to enter the world market to be priced so it doesn't matter who holds it.

Actually it does matter who holds it because only a small fraction of all crude oil is bought or sold on the NYMEX or other commodity exchanges like Singapore. A lot of it is bought or sold in off-market transactions, just as larger parcels of equities are not bought or sold in market transactions.

Why would the Chinese invest billions of dollars in oil rich regions of Sudan and Africa if it wasn't for a long term, assured and cheaper (than market) supply of crude oil. Why would ONGC, India lock up supply in oil fields in Russia if it wasn't for cheaper than market rates.

@louiecypher #33: "From the same person I see the following comments:
(1) Anyways, local Arabs hate immigrants ... and especially desis .
(2) In America, if an Arab is discriminated, I see it as a White system discriminating against Brown men, i.e. people like me"

.. and your point is ?

Arabs might have given us desis a hard time back when we were in their country, which is the premise for my comment (1), but in the American system, we are all 'brown men' who brought down their world trade centers... No matter how much we'd like to distance ourselves from the middle-east, we are all one and the same to the American system, which was the premise for (2).

Randomizer...so you choose this identity because white people can't tell us apart? Standup against intolerance because it is wrong, not out of some imagined sympatico

Maybe Oman is better than Saudi as far as its laws for foreigners.

i suspect it is. remember that there is a lot of variation in the term "arab." let's not overgeneralize. though contempt for dark skinned south asians is probably normative throughout the lighter-skinned arab lands (it seems unlikely to be as much of an issue in say sudan where the "arabs" are heavily mixed with the black african population so they are at least as dark skinned as south asians) there are almost certainly quantitative variations due to issues of class, history and general cultural outlook. oman for example is dominated by a 'heretical' ibadi muslim regime which has a long history of international trade and cosmopolitanism. oman has an 'indigenous' hindu community because of international trade, and hindu temples (though only a few, http://www.jepeterson.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/Oman_Diverse_Society_Northern_Oman.pdf see page 7). this doesn't mean that there isn't discrimination against non-muslims, but it is a sharp difference from the salafist dominated state of saudi arabia. the saudi elite derives from the tribes of the north-central desert, and it shows in the outward makeup of saudi society. my own interactions with gulf arabs seems to be that they do have more contempt for non-muslims than muslim immigrants in rhetoric, but in practice i don't know if matters that much. the operational enslavement of bangladeshi boys a few years back doesn't speak to muslims treating each other with great dignity.

#'s 35 & 38:

Just bc there are some long-term contracts doesn't mean it's not a market.
Almost all markets have long-term contracts.
Those Chinese contracts are a bet--there's someone on the other side who
thinks long-term prices will be lower, no--and if you want to be a conspiracy
theorist, I bet they beat the ChiComs.
Sheesh, econ-101 to Desis--my mommy would cry to see this.

re: arabs in the USA, can i point out that the majority of american arabs are still christian, and that many (such as ralph nader or casey kasem) are operationally "white," and that they are disproportionately levantine (from greater syria) and not arabs of arabian provenance. there's a lot of apples & oranges here. of course my lebanese best friend in high school had a general racist family, but it was the racism of white ethnics, not of gulf arabs (whose racism is in large part derived from the fact that god gifted them with natural resources which result in their being able to live a life of leisure at the expense of servile castes of different cultural origin).

oman has an 'indigenous' hindu community because of international trade, and hindu temples (though only a few, http://www.jepeterson.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/Oman_Diverse_Society_Northern_Oman.pdf see page 7). this doesn't mean that there isn't discrimination against non-muslims, but it is a sharp

It's so interesting the differences you bring up. Yes, when I went to Oman, I went to a Hindu temple there...I was very happy to see to visit a temple, where Hindus can feel a sense of community.

Kudos to Vijay Prashad in creating a "pan-brown identity" where one does not exist.

louiecypher, you keep perpetuating your agenda to drive a wedge between the Dravido-Lemurians and the Scythians.

Beheaded at 17 years of age. Horrifying. And how about this part of the article:

"The workers commit big crimes against Saudis," said Suhaila Hammad of Saudi Arabia's National Society for Human Rights.

Saudi Arabia's National Society for Human Rights... that's like an Onion article waiting to happen.

@40: "Randomizer...so you choose this identity because white people can't tell us apart? "

Choose this identity ? I don't know about you, but I don't have a choice about the color of my skin. The Grouping of all brown folk was not brought about by desis who wanted to be associated with middle-eastern men or vice versa, but was forced upon us by the prejudices of the American system... Chances are that if an Arab is being discriminated somewhere in America, I, being brown, am very likely to face exactly the same discrimination today or tomorrow.

With respect to racial profiling, Arabs and Desis are on the same 'side' in America... and we are connected by skin, not by 'choice'.

and we are connected by skin

that's just not true. yes, arabs are swarthy, but many can pass as white (there was that variation among the 9/11 bombers, they ranged from brown to white), and if they are not dressed in muslim garb many can "pass." south asians get lumped in with muslim arabs because there is an implicit association of "brown" or "non-white" with "alien" and "hostile" coming out of the racist subconscious (there is an ethnographic literature which suggests that the perception of americans of various nations as "white" or not depends in part on the extent to which they adhere to western norms. e.g., argentina is has a larger % of europeans in their population than the united states, but most americans perceive it as non-white because it is a "third world basket case" [more precisely it has declined from its rather secure prosperity of the early 20th century]. in contrast, there was ambivalence about whether japan was white or not in some surveys even though japanese, though light-skinned, aren't "white." but they are economically successful). if you are a dark skinned south asian you can shave your hair and pass as black american i suspect. the ones most screwed by the perceptions are sikhs, generally they can't be confused as black because they are mostly punjabi, and, they dress differently, which is the main differentiator in the case of many white arabs.

p.s. the point about there being hindu temples in oman and dubai is to contrast it with saudi arabia, where public expression of a non-muslim religion (to some extent, non-sunni) is forbidden. that shows the vast gap in the arabian peninsula in regards to their culturally alien minorities. this does not mean that dubai and oman have religious neutrality as operative principles in their societies, just that the discrimination is rather mild compared to saudi arabia or even qatar (which is also salafi affiliated, though with a much softer touch from what i know).

p.p.s. there are parts of saudi arabia, such as mecca and the hijaz in general, which are much more cosmopolitan. there are large expat communities of indians, indonesians, africans, slavs, turks, chinese, etc. in that city.

Randomizer, yes you do in fact choose this when many Arabs are not "brown" and on the street, absent of other cues like culture specific clothing, would be considered white by the average man on the street. People with the "pan-brown" world view go on and on about European colonialism but somehow Islamic conquest is not regarded as colonialism...that too is a choice. Do you think the contempt that Arabs and Europeans have for Indians is fundamentally different in nature?

Qatar has that 'softer' touch. It proscribes to the Wahhabi faith but the country is on a path to make itself a mini-dubai. Many a Saudi queen/princess envy Queen Mozah's showing her face in public and taking rein of the country's humanitarian and educational endeavours. The country is trying to take some steps towards improving the conditions of the laborers, however its a rule in Qatar that every company that sets foot 'should' have a local Qatari taking the reins and some of these people are old uneducated geezers who harken back to the good old days that a letter from the Indian embassy summoning them over workers rights violation could be thrown into the trash (Now its met with some considerable dread). Hopefully as Qatar makes the transition to educated professionals taking over the reins of the companies the situation will improve.

The Saudi Rights commision is a joke. The appointment of that woman is just for show to ease international pressure over 'Woman power' issues in Saudi. She's just a figurehead nothing more.

@Louiecypher-

Being able to relate to an Arab who is being discriminated in America because he looks like an islamic terrorist (brown / middle eastern /swarthy/ 'almost white' / whatever you'd like to call it), does NOT have to imply anything about a person and his 'pan-brown' world view. I relate to him because America looks at me as if i were an islamic terrorist as well. We have something in common. That is where this 'ability to relate' ends.

Lets not derail this thread any further ...

@51: My mistake in the above post i meant that every company that starts up or sets foot should have a Qatari in a position of considerable influence. Not appointed as the CEO

that's just not true. yes, arabs are swarthy, but many can pass as white (there was that variation among the 9/11 bombers, they ranged from brown to white), and if they are not dressed in muslim garb many can "pass."

Yes, but many can not pass as white. Many Arabs in Saudi that I have seen in the news look black. And I've met many South Asians who can pass as white. I think within the Arab population and within South Asians there is in Western/American eyes, an ambivalence on where to place them on America's racial scale of black and white - and that ambivalence is what Arab Americans or South Asian Americans often share. Throw in culture and religion and even more characteristics that these groups WITHIN the US share and so they will together be treated probably the same, which is what Randomizer maybe has experienced. Sure some Americans will notice differences. I'm American and of course I notice differences - hey I notice differences between Keralites and Bengalis.

Louiecypher - in the US there has been a pan-brown identity; as can be seen in this blog. As can be seen in civil rights groups who represent South Asians or Middle Easterners and have the same issues with civil rights laws.

Maybe Randomizer is light-skinned. I grew up in the South of the US and I'm dark-skinned and in my small town, where everyone was black and white except for our Indian family and 2 Arab families. Since the Arab family was there before our family moved there and owned alot of commercial property, I was always questioned if I was so and so daughter who owns the hotel by the beach. And in such a community where the Arab and Indian families where new immigrants, my parents and the arab families completely gravitated toward each other. We were very connected - that is until a business deal that my dad did with the arab family went sour - after that it was all arabs are dumb and cheaters...but anyways that's my dad. Anyways my point being in that small southern town, me with my dark=skinned lemurian, nonscythian self was always confused with the very light-skinned arab family.

The story of the girl in Saudi Arabia is absolutely ghastly. I hope she gets out of it with diplomatic intervention.

But, like razib says, the other countries in the region aren't all like SA. I've visited Oman and know that it has active communities of observant non-muslims --- christians for sure (and, like nowhere else in the world, the malayali orthodox christians worship in the same church building as the ...gasp... protestants and catholics), and the non-muslim desis I know who live there do seem genuinely happy and are certainly not there because of economic hardship. And yeah, there are also prominent hindu business families that have been there for a long time and are omani citizens, i believe. Interestingly the country has a large zanzibari-omani population, so maybe omanis are just more used to a diverse population and are therefore less xenophobic.

The only part of the Gulf I've visited is Dubai and Abu Dhabi (i.e. the U.A.E), and it left me with mixed feelings. Dubai is probably as liberal as a Muslim Arab country can get...alcohol is freely and openly sold, women can wear what they want within reason (i.e. shorts, skirts, sleeveless tops are ok, bikinis in public are not)...there are some temples and gurdwaras (albeit in quiet side streets, where they try to be as unobtrusive and invisible as possible, there is definitely a very muted and hush-hush atmosphere within), there are some churches as well. Needless to say though, huge, elaborate, very modern mosques on virtually every corner. Amazing nightlife, great hotels, dance clubs, lots of tourists, and lots of expats from many different countries. In terms of desis, they are probably over 80% of the population (with the remainder made up of Europeans, Arabs from other countries like Egypt, Lebanon, etc., and a tiny % being the actual 'Emiratis', who are the local, original people who have all the power). Desis can be professional, educated people, with nice houses, cars, etc. but the majority are dirt poor Pakistanis and Indians whose conditions seem very slave-like. Toiling away in the hot desert sun, laying down roads, doing construction, landscaping, you name it. The worst was when our friends took us to see the camel races...all the jockeys were young Muslim boys from Pakistan or Bangladesh...to be in the 21st century, and see practices (the way these boys lived, they way they were treated) that would have been better suited for the Middle Ages, was surreal. Most of these boys eventually become Arabic-speakers, but when newly arrived, they still speak Desi languages (I heard Punjabi and Urdu) and it was just really hard to see these innocents living like that. The cruelty and indifference was just unbelievable.

It's also true that desis are 2nd class people there, and if you have any doubts, any encounter with an Emirati would serve to dispel them. The arrogance, the utter degree of the superiority complex, was palpable. They drive like maniacs, and even if they hit you, it's your fault. Most of the Indians I met socialised exclusively with other Indians, and within those circles they seemed to have a good time and enjoy life. The whole atmosphere is like a super-clean version of India. So like I said...mixed feelings.

Saudi is supposed to be a very different place though, no comparison to Dubai. Dubai probably seems like Las Vegas compared to Saudi.

louciecypher, your criticism doesn't make sense in the context of Randomizer's comments. His claim is logical -- there is a different experience of race and identity in Saudi Arabia than in the U.S. I think most would agree with this. While I understand razib's qualification, "passing" is still a feature of the race system in the U.S.

At any rate, I don't understand the conversation going back and forth re: sanctions, invasion, etc. These tactics are rarely invoked on purely human rights/moralistic terms. This episode is awful, and it highlights some of the more disgusting things about the current arrangement of the Saudi Arabian state and legal system. Are we really so surprised? SA has been doing this for years.

Horrible story, I hope the girl is saved and gets a fair trial. Sadly, I have heard terrible things about Saudi Arabia both in general and at my old job by an Indian IT consultant who had once been assigned to an IT project in Saudi Arabia for 8 months. He told me that the people are very rich but would not listen to him and his team on instructions on how to actually use the system that had been implemented (in a bank I believe) when they were training to train them. Later on, when they failed to use the system as intended they kept on blaming the team for not showing them. However, the Indian IT consultant said that during training if they received a personal call from a friend on their cell phone they'd just walk out or tell the trainer to go away and made no effort to learn. In addition, he said social life was the worst he could ever imagine. No theatres or anywhere to go. The locals were extremely rude to him. From what I've heard I would never ever think about going there, it's one of the last places on Earth that I would ever go along with a few war torn African countries. He told me that getting out of Saudi and going back to India and the United States was the best feeling ever. There is a lesson for the desis who are always complaining about how bad India is here, it could be worse!

#56 · Amitabh:

Dubai....Amazing nightlife
_______________________________

Only been once and it is probably my cousin's fault that I have this impression--but it seemed like mostly Russian (or E. Asian) 'hos at the clubs....

Does India still have diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia? It shouldn't, considering all the beheadings of Indians without a fair trial. Of course, the Indian government doesn't give a crap about its citizens. I doubt that the Saudis would be able to behead Americans with such impunity.

Does India still have diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia?

The King of Saudi Arabia was the chief guest at 2006 (or was it 2005) Republic Day parade.

It is my deepest desire to see Saudi Arabia humbled by scientific innovation. Damn you Fleischmann & Pons for raising and dashing my hopes!

I lived in Kuwait in my early childhood and while it wasn't outright hellish like Saudi Arabia can be for desi immigrants, the condescension towards desis in the workplace and in public was often palpable. Thinking back, even in relatively 'liberal' and somewhat-decent Kuwait, we had a family friend (Indian citizen) held in *jail* for two days for speeding, while Europeans/Americans/Canadians would always get off with a warning. The galling part of it all was that the country utterly depended on the technical expertise of Indian/Pakistani professionals in addition to the lower-ski labor of nurses/workers/maids.

Saudi Arabia, as mentioned earlier, is far worse -- we had close family friends who worked there and while the money was decent, the quality of life sucked and being treated like shit, day-in/day-out gets to you. The Indian Embassies in these countries are largely toothless and impotent since there are so many Indians, and the government just doesn't care (oh, and also economics). But they *could* start harassing these governments about their mistreatment of their citizens, as a decent country would, and they do have leverage in this case -- why? because their citizens keep these damn countries running!!

I suppose I might be sympathetic to this everpresent Arab notion of victimization if so many Gulf Arab countries didn't turn around and systematically deprive foreigners keeping their countries functioning of fundamental rights. This situation has profoundly frustrated me for some time, and I wish someone would stand up for the millions of desis living in the region -- stand up for their rights, and also their dignity as human beings.

may help--I'm not sure....

http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2007/2463/

Does India still have diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia?

The King of Saudi Arabia was the chief guest at 2006 (or was it 2005) Republic Day parade.

This is incredible - why is the Indian govt so impotent? I'm assuming it is b/c the desi laborers to the ME bring in a ton of money for the Indian economy.

Here's an article to the Saudi king being chief guest on Republic Day

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/dec/05saudi.htm

@PS #54 and Camille #57 - Thanks, I didn't think I was alone in my reasoning

@jackal #63 - "and I wish someone would stand up for the millions of desis living in the region -- stand up for their rights, and also their dignity as human beings."

This is going to be really hard, especially when even the local Saudi hardly has any voice of his own against the government. Having a desi standing up for his rights is almost out of the question - considering how easily he could be beheaded if he did something wrong.

What saddens me to this day is the fact that there are SO many families in south India where the Father in the family is working all alone in the Gulf, trying to provide for his family back in India. You will be surprised to know how many families live like this.... and the poor fellow is not only separated from his family, but is treated like crap in this country. It is terrible what economic conditions force you to do, sometimes. Most of the desis just ignore/avoid the locals and basically 'stay out of their way' as much as possible.

As promised, I have a few more stories/observations to share about life in a strict Islamic country like Saudi -

* The devotion to prayer is unbeatable. Nothing can get higher priority. 5 times a day, every channel on TV interrupts whatever program it is you are watching to run a screen reminding you that is is now time for a particular prayer. If you are in a mall/supermarket, all the lights go off, there are no transactions ... for the 10 minutes of that prayer

* Generally. muslim Desis are better off than other desis ... in fact, out of observation alone, I can say that Muslim desis outnumber Hindu desis by at least 2 to 1.

* Mullahs have tons of power, and they often parade around town in a jeep with a loudspeaker ... often intimidating shopkeepers to close their shutters during prayer time and so on .

* The treatment of women is despicable. There are certain rules about the men they can be seen with... very restrictive. If there is a woman in a car, she should be on the passenger seat and not the back seat, for if she's on the backseat, it is presumed she is a prostitute.

* All women (not just muslims) covered head to toe in the Burkha. Anyone who does otherwise is an open target for physical harassment

* Oh yeah, this one is amusing - I never knew that the King in a chess set ought to have a cross on it's head... because all the chess sets in Saudi come with the cross cut off ! Yup , all religious symbols are banned. You could be arrested for displaying any other religious symbol ... assembling for prayer of any other religion is illegal, alcohol and porn in illegal as well .

I would like to see some statistics of the crime rate in Saudi though.. I have a feeling that at least some good has come off its horrendous justice system.

I would like to see some statistics of the crime rate in Saudi though.. I have a feeling that at least some good has come off its horrendous justice system.

not sure how good any statistics out of saudi will be. the very definition of crime out there is bizarre.

The quote about rights is the best part of the article. as if they know anything about rights....

Perhaps South Asians need to stop going to Saudi and her neighbors for work. Why should you put up with this abuse and injustice? They work you to death and you earn slave wages. They treat you like slaves (beatings, lock-ups, sexual assaults, confiscation of passports etc.) They refuse to grant you any form of legal status in Saudi - and can throw you out at a moment's notice. And sadly, cruel taskmasters are not limited to one gender: both Saudi men and women treat foreign workers shabbily.

The Saudis have superiority complex because of their oil wealth. I wonder how they'll deal with it when the oil dries up (there are only about 60 years of oil supply left)? Then I guess then will be the chance for the rest of the world to dump on them!

the tales of Saudi Arabian hospitality never cease to amaze. Only a feudal populace like south asians can take such abuse, like jollykutty serfs.
all that milk in our diets,
where does the calcium go,
not to the bones, not to the spine,
better be vegan, at least there'd be an excuse.

and people get annoyed when i refer to arabia as a backwards place....

and people get annoyed when i refer to arabia as a backwards place....

It is only thanks to Arabia that we have Arabian Horses, only thanks to Arabian Horses that we have an International Arabian Horse Association (IAHA), only thanks to IAHA, that we have a Michael Brown doing a heck of a job.

So, no knocking Arabia, ok?

For those who want to know more, a new and excellent book on the general topic:

America's Kingdom: Mythmaking on the Saudi Oil Frontier by Robert Vitalis

a Michael Brown doing a heck of a job.

Please show some compassion, Brownie is now socially excluded just like desis and Arabs. As I have been instructed by the other commenters, "Brown-ness" is a big tent and old country animus and Big Easy f*ck ups are all water under the bridge. We stand united in sepiatude

Big Easy f*ck ups are all water under the bridge.

More like bridge under the water!

Big Easy f*ck ups are all water under the bridge.
More like bridge under the water!

that was good one :)

that was good one :)

it pains me to say this, but that was good. rahul, are you the artist formerly known as spoorlam?

rahul, are you the artist formerly known as spoorlam?

Nope, I am a conglomerate. I am large, I contain multi-dudes. I feed myself setup lines as louiecypher, respond to them as Rahul, and then praise myself as PS. Sometimes, I give ups to louiecypher, or reply to a PS post to mix things up.

I am large, I contain multi-dudes.

r u john travolta?

rahul, are you the artist formerly known as spoorlam? Nope, I am a conglomerate. I am large, I contain multi-dudes. I feed myself setup lines as louiecypher, respond to them as Rahul, and then praise myself as PS. Sometimes, I give ups to louiecypher, or reply to a PS post to mix things up.

I guess my lot in life is to play Rahul's lemurian buffoon like some Johnny Lever....(manly) sigh. You must divert some of your lady fan base my way for my efforts

Your the best Rahul; wish every mutineer was like you !

.... respond to them as Rahul, and then praise myself as PS...

I guess my lot in life is to play Rahul's lemurian buffoon like some Johnny Lever....(manly) sigh. You must divert some of your lady fan base my way for my efforts

louiecypher, you seem like a smart self-aware man. Although, I'd call you a lemurian baboon, given your macaca-ous leanings.

Your the best Rahul; wish every mutineer was like you !

Thanks, PS! Although I'm no real mutineer. I'm more like a Zelig in the great war of the Sepias.

More like bridge under the water!

Well played, sir. Well played.

it pains me to say this, but that was good. rahul,

Maybe I should leave on a high note.

Human Rights Watch has been monitoring the treatment of migrant workers to the middle east. Check out their reports:

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/saudi0704/

http://www.hrw.org/photos/2006/uae1106/

As a community, have we done anything about this?

SP

Thank you for your links....I'm at work and haven't finished watching them, but from what i saw it was informative. I don't know if South Asians Americans, or even South Asians have organizations that protest this; I want to do a search on the web about that, but haven't been able to do a thorough one. I'd be very curious if there is any activist orgs in India that address this.

When I see the exteriour sheen of wealth and modernity of Dubai or Saudi, it makes me sick to my stomach the human pain it takes to create that illusion. I really wish India's influential Bollywood actors would raise this issue b/c then I think it will encourage others to speak about it.

If someone else knows of S. Asian activist orgs that address this particular issue please share.