"Potterwallah."
pure genius, that.

I am not a fan of Harry Potter and have resisted reading any of those books and seeing any of movies so far. But this Friday I went and saw the latest movie - Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix and hated it. So my distaste of all Pottery stuff continues...

Anna, although I've never been a Potterwallah (as I also mentioned in the other thread) - I did read virtually every Three Investigators, Ken Holt, Hardy Boys and Biggles books as a pre-teen!

And while I can't be completely sure, not having read any - the Harry Potter books are probably some amalgam of these other series - plot and theme wise, if not in detail. And so their appeal to pre-teens worldwide is a given. But, although the Three Investigators were still coming out as I was growing up, and I was really crazy about them, I don't remember ever queueing up for the new ones as they came out - or anybody else doing that either, anywhere. So the phenomenal rush for the latest Harry Potter books that you see - both here and in India and Pakistan - is something new, and shows how much more the South Asian urban upper-middle class has become an extension of the Western middle class, and how much more deeply these 'Western cultural products' are penetrating South Asia, along with the rest of the world, and how much more commercialized the children's (ok, pre-teen) book market segment has become.

Brij, thanks to your perhaps unintended support, my aversion to all things Potter (no books OR movies yet) shall continue triumphantly. When someone attempts to persuade me to see the phillum, I will point them to your comment. :D

How funny. I JUST finished watching the fourth video for the first time right now - don't know how it slipped through. I'm a little late, but, oh my god! Our home is the proud owner of the 7th book - my sister dressed as a Hogswarth school girl and equipped with her Nimbus 2000 was waiting diligently at midnight. I can't wait to watch the 5th movie, re-read book 6 and read book 7. Yay!

So the phenomenal rush for the latest Harry Potter books that you see - both here and in India and Pakistan - is something new, and shows how much more the South Asian urban upper-middle class has become an extension of the Western middle class, and how much more deeply these 'Western cultural products' are penetrating South Asia, along with the rest of the world,

Chachaji, that is EXACTLY what I found fascinating.

Well, that and what the paan/chai wallahs said. :)

how much more the South Asian urban upper-middle class has become an extension of the Western middle class, and how much more deeply these 'Western cultural products' are penetrating South Asia, along with the rest of the world

Globalization at work...For economy and for culture national boundaries will become increasingly irrelevant..

"Potterwallah." pure genius, that.

Anna, your allusions are subtle, sometimes too subtle for me. An example of good conflation ? :)

So the phenomenal rush for the latest Harry Potter books that you see - both here and in India and Pakistan - is something new, and shows how much more the South Asian urban upper-middle class has become an extension of the Western middle class, and how much more deeply these 'Western cultural products' are penetrating South Asia, along with the rest of the world

I talked to my litte cousin in India today and was shocked to find out that the book launched in India on the same date it did in the US! What's more concerning is that of 8 am Sunday IST she only had 200 pages left to read.

I'm so used to everything coming out in India months later than it does in the US - movies, music etc. But the growing spending power of the "growing" middle-class is being noticed by West...

An astute comment indeed chachji!

Seen the movies. Finished book seven Saturday afternoon. Potterwallah Zindabad!

I don't read the books, but I like watching the movies. I have to find a Harry Potter movie buddy for the 5th one. My friends are at extremes, they are either potter maniacs (so went and watched the latest movie the week it came out) or don't want to go at all!

P.S. Saw Transformers today and it was not as great as everyone said it was. Too long.

Ugh. My sister read it in 15 hours straight, waiting till the very end to read the last page...the sign of a true (and completely crazy) fan.

I, on the other hand, have a Contract Law essay due in three days so don't have the luxury of locking myself in a darkened room with a small lamp and a mountain of Maltesers, chips, Skittles and energy drinks to see me through Book 7.

Btw am I the only one who finds it tacky that JK Rowling authorised a Harry Potter theme park for an untold sum of money? It'll be even crapper than the movies, which everyone just watches out of compulsion but which we know will never top the books...

"Globalization at work...For economy and for culture national boundaries will become increasingly irrelevant".

So Harry Potter is the new MacDonald’s? ;) you think Ol' harry can supersize us??!!

Can't see why this is so surprising.

I have read all six books so far but have resisted buying the seventh because I am waiting for the boxed set to become reasonably priced. The tale spun by Rowling is akin to the hold the Magic Faraway tree series had on me when I was a kid growing up in Chennai. Of course the characters and their depth is different but the idea of opening a book and getting sucked up in its tale to the point I do not realize I am reading and not living some story is what the queues are about. If I were part of the generation that started reading these books and grew up on them I can well see myself part of the queue waiting ardently for the release.

The reach perhaps is because of the internet and television. My visit to Chennai/Bangalore late 2006 led me to Landmark/CrossWords a Barnes and Noble kind of chain. Once you are inside the shop nothing is really different except probably the variety of books we can see there.

Mothers and daughters, teenagers, young working people, plenty of youngsters with their parents and lot of oldies. all stood in a queue calmly clutching receipts for copies booked up to three months earlier.

I'm sure you can get it bootleg on the streets, say in Koramangala near the Forum.

P.S. Saw Transformers today and it was not as great as everyone said it was. Too long.

Agreed it was too long. But much better than the Order of Phoenix. It had style unlike the Potter movie.

I have to find a Harry Potter movie buddy for the 5th one

Is that like a f**k buddy? someone who you don't care about other than their moderate admiration of the Harry Potter series?

@ 13,

So Harry Potter is the new MacDonald’s? ;) you think Ol' harry can supersize us??!!

McDonald has been Indianized. In order to survive see its Indian menu - veg and non-veg

Hollywood is one of the American products which India consumes without morphing it ( though Bollywood probably copies its songs & story lines sometimes )

P.S. Saw Transformers today and it was not as great as everyone said it was. Too long.

Agreed it was too long. But much better than the Order of Phoenix. It had style unlike the Potter movie.

Michael Bay? STYLE???

No. That can't be.

Dude, I completely dislike the 5th Potter book, but I thought the fifth movie was really well done (given how much there was to cover), and it was surprisingly the shortest Potter movie out of the lot.

I used to hate the Harry Potter series. Not like a latent hate, but a deep-rooted hatred. My (younger) sibs were totally into it, and I was not on it at all. Then I worked in a book store during the release of Potter3 and Potter4 and I really hated HP. The release dates for HP used to be worse than working the week of Christmas -- you get crazed, pushy moms, crying kids, lack of stock, broken hearts. I spent one day during the release just stocking the cash/wrap and front display (this takes about 15 minutes to load up and unpack 4-5 boxes). Every time I went for a "refill" of boxes we were out of stock on the display and kids would howl, terrified that the book was sold out. It was my second worst bookselling experience to date.

I finally broke down and started reading the series because I could no longer work children's books without at least understanding the story. I became hooked. It's not that HP is brilliantly written (it's not), and the first two books are a bit like the Babysitter's Club (you know exactly how the plot is going to unfold and in what order), but the series has become more interesting and more complicated as time goes on. There's still a lot of irrelevant details, but overall I think JK has done a lot of interesting work tying together different literary and mythological traditions.

My sister has already finished the book, and she already knows she is not to talk to me for the next 48 hours. Tash, I'm with you -- working this weekend and trying desperately to exercise some self-control (I almost brought my book to the gym this morning, what was I thinking!? I hate reading when I work out). So please no spoilers. That stupid NYT review already has me disheartened.

And while I can't be completely sure, not having read any - the Harry Potter books are probably some amalgam of these other series - plot and theme wise, if not in detail.

So please no spoilers.

My sister has already finished the book, and she already knows she is not to talk to me for the next 48 hours.

You can read that big ass book in 48 hours?

"Hollywood is one of the American products which India consumes without morphing it ( though Bollywood probably copies its songs & story lines sometimes )"

watch out for harinder singh potter,

and this guy!

http://desinotes.com/the-indian-harry-potter/

My number in the line 719. Time 1:20 in the AM of 21st July 2007. Currently, very gradually progressing towards the last page (759). The temptation to open the last page and read it is strong , but I resist.

I resisted HP until 2004, at which time I sped through the first 4 books without stopping for anything but bathroom and food breaks. I've read each of the first 6 books multiple times -- they're usually my book of choice before falling asleep at night, or one that I take to the cafe. They're sort of like my literary equivalent of sit-coms or the 80s movies I can watch 100 times and never get sick of -- not high art, but certainly entertaining and escapist. I enjoyed HP #1 for the exact reason that it was a simple child's tale of good vs. evil. I've really enjoyed the complexity of the later books, but miss that naive quality the earlier books had. #1 and #7 don't even feel like they belong in the same series together. I think my problem is that by having HP's world coexist with ours and striving to create something of an allegory, she leaves too many loose ends in the end. She wraps up Harry's plot just fine, but all the moral questions she has been praised for raising are left completely unaddressed -- what will become of the goblins, elves, and other subjugated non-human creatures? I have no problem picking up young adult fiction -- keeps me in touch with the kiddies and for me, better use of time than watching a sitcom or reading US magazine when I just want something mindless to do. (That's not to say that I think HP is mindless, but when you're on the 4th read ...) I am also a sucker for serials, which is why finishing #7 yesterday afternoon was a blow. Anyhoo, HP is not quite like boy detective series; as many of the reviews point out, it strives to be more like high fantasy, though it ultimately falls short of creating its own mythos. (I don't actually read said fantasy, but my adolescent informants tell me she has borrowed from LoTR, Dark is Rising, Narnia, etc.) There are bits and pieces of other worlds throughout the series -- a Quest-like plot, for example.

Anyhoo, I think the books are great for a number of reasons, beyond what I wrote above. The global HP phenomenon ... a little weird, but I really don't see it as some horrible Western cultural product infiltrating the East. Is the series' popularity really due to more aggressive marketing and commercialization of the HP brand? I mean, HP is not exactly cool. It could have just as easily flopped abroad. As far as popular childrens' literature goes, HP is a breath of fresh air compared to the rest of the field. What we should be more alarmed about is the popularity of series like Gossip Girl, now being made into a TV show, where blowjobs are reportedly passe, public sex is in, and Gucci purses are the norm. (And don't forget that a book marketed at teens is really being read by pre-teens; and it's 6 year olds who love HP more than 12 year olds. Pre-teens and teens probably like HP the least, compared to very young kids and adults -- they are already self-conscious enough to have moved on to "literature.")Last year, I was much more disturbed about my 19 yr. old "niece's" (cousin's kid) obsession with the OC and Desperate Housewives than I was her equally zealous obsession with HP.

And my final point: books fine, movies garbage. I have nothing but absolute disdain for all the movies except #1. I don't see how anyone could enjoy the movies (plot, not cinematography) without reading the books.

Me, Potterwalah? Guilty as charged.

El Capitan and I stood in the line on friday night and while I went to bed 'that' night, eight hours of saturday were dedicated to completing book 7. I am a potwarts grad and el capitan is sitting outside on the patio getting his fill.

I wasn't into the books at first because I thought that they were targetted to 11 and 12 year olds, which they were. But book four did me in completely. I have been hooked since. I grew up on Enid Blyton and the whole british boarding school scenario coupled with magic took me back to my childhood. I think the kids in India probably had the same Faraway Tree and Famous Five diet and Harry Potter was simply a twenty first century version of it all.

The Potter books are definitely derivation when you read them. I mean, the plot boils down to the good versus evil. I have found referance to Tolkien, Joseph Cambell and even Britian's treatment of the war on terror. Fun stuff...

You can read that big ass book in 48 hours?

Try eight hours. :)

It's a page turner, no doubt.

In our burb, the majority of kids in line were the same age as HP, @17-yr-olds who grew up with the books from the first book which came out when they were 4th graders, my daughter included.

I have not read any of the Harry Potter books. But the analogy to 3 investigators and other books doesn't hold in terms of building anticipation. Harry Potter was conceived in and ended during the same generation by one writer with a epic narrative arc. Series like 3 Investigators, while enjoyable to read, are just not the same epic scope, were prettty much assembly line creations. If Arthur Conan Doyle was still churning out Sherlock Holmes Books (assuming he was alive), I can see Sherlock Holmes devotees lining up if the last book had the added suspense if Holmes was going to die.

Yeah, about 8 hours for me too. ^__^

Maybe she puts LSD on the pages or something... because I agree... they're great books, and they're also terrible books, but the pages keep turning because I want to know what happens next!

Re:

I'm so used to everything coming out in India months later than it does in the US - movies, music etc.

But with time zones HP came out in India BEFORE it came out in the US, yes? ^__^ Thomas Friedman would be much amused.

Quick clarification on my post #25 -- my OC/HP obsessed niece is in India, not in the US.

You can read that big ass book in 48 hours?

Harry Potter is total hyped up series. Why the hell in India people are buying those Harry Potter books instead of reading Ramayana, Mahabharata and chandamama stories. People are blindly copying western things and forgetting their own culture and history...so sad...

Death to Harry! Evil Wizards rule!

how much more commercialized the children's (ok, pre-teen) book market segment has become.

Its very naive to assign it a 'pre-teen' label to HP. The so called "Harry Potter generation" now ranges from 15 to 24.

Quote:

"It's this sense of connection that makes Calinan part of the Harry Potter generation, the group of kids who ranged from 6 to 15 years old when Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone was released in the U.S. in 1998. Now anywhere from 15 to 24, they have grown up alongside Harry..."

Why the hell in India people are buying those Harry Potter books instead of reading Ramayana, Mahabharata and chandamama stories. People are blindly copying western things and forgetting their own culture and history...so sad...

ANd one can't do both? People in India used to watch Enter the Dragon and Bond movies in big numbers in the 70s and 80s. Nothing new here.

Why the hell in India people are buying those Harry Potter books instead of reading Ramayana, Mahabharata and chandamama stories. People are blindly copying western things and forgetting their own culture and history...so sad..

Yes. Preach it. How dare Indians veer from Ramayana. Mahabharata and er, Chandamama. My childhood was permanently altered after reading a story of a three-breasted woman in Chandamama. Her husband suspects her of infidelity and punches her in the chest. The offending breast vanishes and they live happily ever after. Not sure if it was written by Vyasa or Valmiki.

Can any tell me how this thing ends??? I googled and googled to no avail. You can just link me to a post of a description of the ending so you don't incur the wrath of Potter fans by posting it here. Or you can email me. Please don't post it here.

And they say indians are illiterate eh....lol

Msichana: I absolutely loved the Magic Faraway Tree series by E.B., and the utterly whimsical nature of those books had me completely spellbound. This series was the first of the genre I ever read (around third grade), and no other set of fantasy books ever enthralled me quite like that, probably because I was so impressionable then.

Shodan: I can't even immediately come up with the Hindi word for breast :) I wonder what's more "traumatizing" for kids: witnessing Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunctions or reading about the marital saga of a physiologically idiosyncratic couple. I remember being completely freaked by the three-breasted Martian extra in Total Recall.

Can any tell me how this thing ends??? I googled and googled to no avail.

wikipedia

Can any tell me how this thing ends???

The butler did it.

Why the hell in India people are buying those Harry Potter books instead of reading Ramayana, Mahabharata and chandamama stories.

I'd have agreed with you, if you had had the decency to put Champak in that list.

Can any tell me how this thing ends??? I googled and googled to no avail. You can just link me to a post of a description of the ending so you don't incur the wrath of Potter fans by posting it here. Or you can email me. Please don't post it here.

Search Wikipedia. It will take few more days to turn up on top of Google/Yahoo search results.

Harry Potter is total hyped up series. Why the hell in India people are buying those Harry Potter books instead of reading Ramayana, Mahabharata and chandamama stories. People are blindly copying western things and forgetting their own culture and history...so sad...

You know what...the reason Harry Potter probably appeals to so many people is because he is an average kid (in the wizarding world anyway) with a troubled non-priviledged childhood and he has to fight evil for the 'great good'. I see a lot of similarities between the plots in it and in Hindu Mythology. Also, something tells me that kids reading HP will find more in common with 'the boy who lived' then Ravana of the ten heads kidnapping Sita and Eklavya having to cut off his hand so that Dronacharya could say that his student was the best archer in the wold.

At the end of this, pottermania or not, thanks to JK Rowling's stories, you have kids between the ages of 11 and 17 clamouring in lines to READ a book. To me, that's just astonishing.

My childhood was permanently altered after reading a story of a three-breasted woman in Chandamama. Her husband suspects her of infidelity and punches her in the chest. The offending breast vanishes and they live happily ever after. Not sure if it was written by Vyasa or Valmiki.

That sounds like the story behind the Meenakshi temple at Madurai.

Meenakshi was the daughter of King Malayadwaja Pandya and Queen Kanchanamala, who begot her after performing several yagnas (sacrificial rites). The three-year old girl who emerged out of the fire during the final yagna was found to have three breasts but a divine voice informed the surprised royal couple that the third breast would disappear when the girl meets her consort. The princess, who was named Meenakshi, grew to be a beautiful young woman of great valour who conquered several lands and challenged the mightiest kings including Indra, the King of the Devas. Indra appealed to Lord Siva for protection and Meenakshi, chasing the fleeing king, confronted Siva whereby her third breast disappeared. It was revealed that the princess was actually an incarnation of Parvati who came to earth to honour a promise given to Kanchanamala in her previous life. Thus Siva came to Madurai as Sundareshwar to marry Meenakshi and the two ruled over the kingdom for many years before they left for their heavenly abode from the spot where the temple now stands. (link)

Harry Potter is total hyped up series. Why the hell in India people are buying those Harry Potter books instead of reading Ramayana, Mahabharata and chandamama stories. People are blindly copying western things and forgetting their own culture and history...so sad...

Also, something tells me that kids reading HP will find more in common with 'the boy who lived' then Ravana of the ten heads kidnapping Sita and Eklavya having to cut off his hand so that Dronacharya could say that his student was the best archer in the wold.

Mutual contempt is not gonna get us anywhere.

At the end of this, pottermania or not, thanks to JK Rowling's stories, you have kids between the ages of 11 and 17 clamouring in lines to READ a book. To me, that's just astonishing.

Ah, no ... it would be astonishing if the kids were to graduate to reading slightly more complicated stuff than HP

I suspect part of the reason behind the popularity of the books is Rowling's rather successful combination of two of the staples of children's literature -- the epic fantasy genre (e.g. the Earthsea trilogy, The Dark is Rising sequence, the more recent His Hard Materials trilogy, etc.) and the boarding school genre (e.g. the original Tom Brown's Schooldays, the Jennings series, the Malory Towers series, the St. Clare's series, etc.). One can't help but wonder if at some point some other author might not combine the third staple of children's literature, the child sleuth genre (e.g. the Five Find-Outers, the Famous Five, the Secret Seven, the Lone Pine Club, The Three Investigators, etc.), with say, fantasy, and produce yet another successful string of lucrative bestsellers.

Now, I don't believe the popularity of Harry Potter in South Asia is unprecedented. Based on memories of my childhood in Bangladesh, books by Enid Blyton, Anthony Buckeridge, Richmal Crompton, Roald Dahl, and P. G. Wodehouse, as well as the Biggles, Three Investigators, Hardy Boys, and Nancy Drew series, were extremely popular among the young readers who read fiction in English. However, this particular group was, at that time, rather small -- it consisted largely of the few children from the elite schools who didn't view reading as a chore. The Internet didn't exist as far as we were concerned; and there certainly wasn't any orchestrated marketing effort for these books -- we chanced upon them only if, say, the British Council Library had ordered them, or if somehow, one of the three or four major bookstores in Dhaka had them in stock. Despite all that, I think one would be hard put to find any avid reader of my generation from South Asia who doesn't have wistful memories of say, Jeeves or Jupiter Jones.

The sheer scale of the Harry Potter phenomenon in South Asia though, is, I suspect, a reflection of the rapidly increasing educated middle class there (there were a only handful of schools in Dhaka where you could sit for the GCE O-levels when I was a child; now there are hundreds), and the realization by publishing companies and booksellers that this is a market that can be tapped.

But what about the books themselves? Are they any good? Well, I am probably a little biased towards the "classics" of my childhood; but while I believe there are current examples of children's literature that might be more sophisticated and challenging (e.g. Pullman's His Dark Materials, Stroud's Bartimaeus Trilogy, Reeve's Hungry City Chronicles, etc.), I don't think the Harry Potter series deserves to be sneered at. I believe Rowling has improved as a writer as the series progressed and, while the series is still rather soap operaesque (which might explain part of its appeal), it does, especially in the later books, touch on serious themes such as disillusionment with heroes and icons, racism, class issues and subtle elitism, "Uncle Tom"-ism, and more.

Will young readers progress from Potter to more challenging fare? I know several that have, but my sample size is too small to make any broad generalizations.

At the end of this, pottermania or not, thanks to JK Rowling's stories, you have kids between the ages of 11 and 17 clamouring in lines to READ a book. To me, that's just astonishing.

Ah, no ... it would be astonishing if the kids were to graduate to reading slightly more complicated stuff than HP

Sure HP is not a "classic" in the usual sense. But basically it has given kids who normally don't/wouldn't read a way to get interested in reading and move on to other advanced books. Usually a passion for something has to start somewhere and if it's reading HP, so be it.
I'm sure many parents are just happy to have their kids reading and I'm sure there are far worse books out there for kids to read - Sweet Vally High anyone? That was soft-core teen pr0n for sure. I remember hiding those books from my mom because she didn't like my sister and I reading them.

I was on the subway in Manhattan Friday night a bit after midnight--freaking *full* of kids of all races w/ the new Potter book.
I'm with the "at least they're reading" crowd!

Sure HP is not a "classic" in the usual sense. But basically it has given kids who normally don't/wouldn't read a way to get interested in reading and move on to other advanced books. Usually a passion for something has to start somewhere and if it's reading HP, so be it. I'm sure many parents are just happy to have their kids reading and I'm sure there are far worse books out there for kids to read - Sweet Vally High anyone? That was soft-core teen pr0n for sure. I remember hiding those books from my mom because she didn't like my sister and I reading them.

couple this with the item recently posted about the magician opening a school for magic in India...

(a) my former grad student says that the government will apply "reservations" for all students.

(b) my former grad student has a new nick-name... "muggle-ji."

I am not ashamed to admit that I stood in line with my son till 12:30 am on Friday to get the book( I did the same last year : do I get parenting brownie points?).He read it through Saturday and I just finished it a few minutes ago.That was satisfying but much darker than I expected for what essentially is a children's book series

Shaad:
Thanks for mentioning Anthony Buckridge .Do you remember Jennings and Darbyshire- I spent many a happy hour with them.Also Richmal Crompton - the "William " series were sheer genius but I am sure you cannot get those books today - too outdated

Probably way less, but like I said, I am trying to finish a project for work and am trying to exercise some semblance of self control. It's long, but not particularly difficult reading (not like Ulysses, my least fave book of all time). I could probably do it in about 8-9 hours -- I have to stop to eat/work out or I can't keep focusing. I know, human fallibility :)

The only book I read in that speed was the Autobiography of Malcolm X.

Potterwallah? Yes,Love HP! - to me JKRowling is a great story teller. I am enraptured by every book. I saw the latest movie and this movie is the best yet. Some of the other movie versions of HP I didn't like, but this one was one continuous thrill ride.

I'm going to hold-out on reading the latest HP but so looking forward to it. The character Harry and friends are so relateable and when I read the first HP, it just touched my heart. HP comes from an abusive and neglected background and he strives to overcome those things even as he's battling for his life. Not only do you get the magical adventures but you also get a character who struggles through everyday, life situations just like the rest of us in muggle-world --- I love that about his character; his struggle to find self-esteem coming from a broken home and I feel the books encourage human kindness; so glad so many children are delving into it.

I was and still am an bookworm. Childhood books like A little princess, Narnia chronicles, Anne Green Gables, they actually have a profound effect on my sense of morality - I often can't remember the actual plots or characters names, but the internal struggles of the characters I remember and the lessons of human kindness. So glad Rowling created HP; I can't help but hope that other children will be moved by the moral issues in the book.

By the way in the latest movie the character of Luna "looney" Lovegood really stole the show.

That was satisfying but much darker than I expected for what essentially is a children's book series

I don't think if I have children that I'll worry about the darkness of the HP books (not that I'm saying you think that runa, but I think a lot of parents have concerns about this) --- did you read Narnia chronicles, so many parts were bone-chilling and the grimms fairy tales and bible stories and the greeks mythologies and of course the amar chithra katha versions of the mahabharata (loved them; fell in love with Krishna as a little kid) - such good stuff, with dark characters.

I was never disturbed by them as a child, but b/c there's such a didactic bent and evil v/s good, I was drawn to the idea of "being good", of overcoming evil. Of course as you get older your mind can take in the nuances of life, the gradations, unless of course you are George Bush. But for me, it was important to have that foundation of a memorable stories that spoke of good/evil struggles. The HIndu stories....talk about having to learn to understand human nuances!

I hope that the Harry Potter series gets kids interested in reading in general. I guess whatever it takes to get young people into books is probably good!

Re: 54

Thanks for mentioning Anthony Buckridge .Do you remember Jennings and Darbyshire- I spent many a happy hour with them.Also Richmal Crompton - the "William " series were sheer genius but I am sure you cannot get those books today - too outdated

Runa, I remember Jennings and Darbyshire rather fondly indeed. As for the "William" series, they are still in print in the UK (there's a boxed paperback set of the entire series available from amazon.co.uk). And while the books are definitely dated, I think they would still be appealing to children -- after all, the thrill of those books lay not so much in the historical period as in William's sheer rebellious nature and audacity.

BadIndianGirl: Sure HP is not a "classic" in the usual sense. But basically it has given kids who normally don't/wouldn't read a way to get interested in reading and move on to other advanced books. Usually a passion for something has to start somewhere and if it's reading HP, so be it.

Sorry to strike a cynical note in this thread full of hopes for children and fond remembrances of readings past, but NYT has this to say about HP and reading habits ...

Indeed, as the series draws to a much-lamented close, federal statistics show that the percentage of youngsters who read for fun continues to drop significantly as children get older, at almost exactly the same rate as before Harry Potter came along.

Any social scientists on this thread care to comment?

Sorry to strike a cynical note in this thread full of hopes for children and fond remembrances of readings past, but NYT has this to say about HP and reading habits ...

Maybe that's 'cause in between all the assigned readings in high school and college, there's really no time for personal reading! I see it in my own students -- they are way too burned out to pick up a book during the academic, unless it's at the cost of getting HW done. Harry Potter won't change that!

Sorry to strike a cynical note in this thread full of hopes for children and fond remembrances of readings past, but NYT has this to say about HP and reading habits ...

Maybe that's 'cause in between all the assigned readings in high school and college, there's really no time for personal reading! I see it in my own students -- they are way too burned out to pick up a book during the academic, unless it's at the cost of getting HW done. Harry Potter won't change that!

Are the kids getting time to watch TV?

I personally have never read any of the books or seen any of the movies, but I found the following tidbit (regarding translating Harry Potter into other languages) from Wikipedia to be interesting:

"For reasons of secrecy, translation can only start when the books are released in English; thus there is a lag of several months before the translations are available. This has led to more and more copies of the English editions being sold to impatient fans in non-English speaking countries. Such was the clamour to read the fifth book that its English language edition became the first English-language book ever to top the bestseller list in France.[49]"

Ah, Amitabh-ji, I love your love of languages. :)

Ooh, I love Harry Potter. I am guilty of being a part of the commercialization too. I ordered the book on amazon but couldn't resist and bought another copy at the local Borders. (I did the sane for HBP.)
I have allergies which make opening my eyes impossible and still I read the book in 10 hrs (way longer than what I would've taken if my eyes were alright). What better way to lose eye sight than while reading the Harry Potter finale? :-D

Are the kids getting time to watch TV?

DVR = marathon tv-watching parties every few weeks!

And really, I can empathize if they choose TV over books in their spare time -- after having to read The Oresteia or The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight in Heaven (or The Odyssey or other classic HS assigned reading), I don't think I couldn't muster up the energy for literature. Mindless TV or Harry Potter, though? Definitely. I consider myself to be a voracious reader -- I'll read anything, even if just to determine for myself that something is crap, e.g. chick lit -- but I really feel as though I essentially stopped reading for pleasure between the ages of 14-20. I went from maybe 10 books/month (or more) to a few a year. Which, actually, is where I remain, since I reread so many of my books. Well, anyway, happy HP endings to those of you reading!

Mindless TV or Harry Potter

What!!? how could you put HP in the same sentence with mindless tv? But then I am an HP freak :)

PS, don't worry, I love me some HP, too -- see my comments earlier!! I just think it requires the same level of brain activity as watching TV, esp. thanks to JK's mediocre prose. Granted, HP is much more exciting, but I don't have to have my thinking cap all the way on (I'm not really into finding all the small clues, mistakes, etc.)

Such was the clamour to read the fifth book that its English language edition became the first English-language book ever to top the bestseller list in France.

"Quelle horreur. First le big mac and now le 'arry potter." Serves the French right, I say.

I kid, I kid ... :-)

Any social scientists on this thread care to comment?

huh? Without HP, the number would have probably fallen more rapidly

If David Cronenberg directs a Harry Potter film adaptation, I'll consider seeing it.

I was supposed to go to the launch party for the book, which was being held at 4:00 a.m. in one of Karachi's few shopping malls, Park Towers. Then the news-readers informed everyone, with much giggling hysteria mind you, that two bombs had been found in the parking lot of the mall, and so my mother refused to let me out of the house. Fortunately the one decent retailer here delivered my copy to me at home at 7:00 a.m., I discovered it at noon, then skipped lunch to finish it off by 3:30. It's been rather mental here as well--a disturbing number of people were clutching the book as they walked around the office today, and at least four friends texted me with warnings of dire consequences if I let slip any plot lines.

Damn' house-elves. You can never trust them worth a damn.

Regarding criticisms of the Harry Potter series: I don't get the underlying "JKR isn't that great of a writer, but if it gets kids excited and into reading, that's great" attitude or that her work is sub-par. This isn't directed at anyone in particular here, just an observation I've noted right now since we're discussing popular culture.

Literature, language, flow, etc. all change over time. JKR has written an epic on par with Lord of the Rings (who I'm a big geek about, too). Sure, they're different, but at the end of the day, the result among readers is quite similar. Many are great technical writers, especially critics, but do they have the talent to write a tale, a book, a work of fiction that has the ability to captivate so many? I think not.

People can use arguments of commercialization, marketing, selling out, etc. Why is an artist/writer/talent blamed for becoming popular or so widely accepted? The notion that the public should accpreciate certain works vs. others is utter crap. As with any work of art, the level of appreciation (how much you like it) really depends on how the art expressed speakes to your own experiences. Obviously, in the case of fantasy/fiction, we're talking about the more human elements. The greatness of the Harry Potter series is in it's ability to speak to different audiences (adult, adolecent, children) and probably convey nuanced messages.

It's strength and popularity is in it's simplicity, yet brilliant story telling.

Critics who're nitpicking this series should listen what the food critic had to say in Pixar's latest movie, Ratatouille. That last monologue by the food critic really hits the mark about critics and those who create. When the greatness of creation significantly outweighs the human imperfections, is it really worth being so narrow minded simply to argue that imperfetions exist?

The Deathly Hallows is a solid ending to one of the most well told tales, and yes, an instant classic. For those who don't agree this isn't an instant classic, as the bulk of the current generation get older, it'll be accepted as such anyway.

- GujuDude AKA a potterwallah

Regular sepia lurker, first time poster, had to de-lurk when it is HP being discussed. First of, I am a bookworm of the highest order. I love, love, love the HP series, I think it is some of the best children's literature out there. Yes, I have read and loved LOTR, Narnia etc. I have read and have ALL of EB's books, I love re-reading (even in my early-30s) Peter Pan, the Little Prince, the Wind in the Willows - all acknowledged classics ... actually I really dislike this book snobbery; classics here, non-classics there. I will assert that HP, while definitely having grown from being a teen-preteen series to an adult level, is truly one of the all time greats. It grips you (I am usually gripped by any good writing) and pulls you into the HP world (I feel like I am in a Pensieve the whole time!) and you can't stop till the book ends.

About being them being western and popular due to marketing hype, hogwash! The themes are universal - fight of good versus evil, an underdog taking on the strongest and winning mainly due to purity of heart & goodness of soul rather than any other 'talent' - how are these 'Western' concepts???? Marketing hype? I have lived in the US since August 2000 (came here for my PhD) and hadn't heard of them in India or in the US till my sis back home started reading them in 2001 because a friend recommended them ... & we live in Bombay and are regular customers at Crosswords so there was NO hype .... people got into it. I sent my grandmom (70 yrs old) the fourth book, she lives in Australia with my uncle's family and she loved it. My cousins who were 8 and 10 got into the books through her! My f-i-l, who is another avid reader got into the books through me and is currently finishing the 7th one. We both re-read the 6th book just before the 7th was released ... no hype, just very good storytelling.

As for reading fast, the record is Anne somebody who speed-read the book in 2.6 hrs or so - 4000 words a minute. I read it much slower in about 5 hours from 3 am to 8 am on Sat morn and felt that it was totally worth my lost sleep! Of course there were some 'rough' patches in the book, I didn't the wandering bits so much and what happens to Snape is pretty pointless but all in all, a great book.

Anna, if you like LOTR, read HP. Don't watch the movies till you read the books, they are at best 1% as good as the books.

Urmila and Gujudude - couldn't agree with you guys more! There is so much character development in her writing, and it is just as much character-driven as plot driven. So much intricate description of an amazing world.

have lived in the US since August 2000 (came here for my PhD) and hadn't heard of them in India or in the US till my sis back home started reading them in 2001 because a friend recommended them

First time I really took notice of Harry Potter books was when my South Korean roomate in gradschool, who didn't speak a lick of English when he came (the dude had an electronic hand held dictonary/translator for Lord's sake), got totally hyped up about the first movie coming out the November of 2001. He had read the books in Korean and was totally a fan.

The simplicity of the prose/structure enables more accurate translation into other languages without really losing out on the essense of it's story.

The only book I read in that speed was the Autobiography of Malcolm X.

Ok, so now that I'm finished I can talk to my sister again. I was amazed by how quickly the book went by relative to other similarly lengthy books in the series (this one only took 5.5 hours!).

PS, I, too, love children's books. I think they're a totally underrated genre. What I remember about reading was that 1) it provided an escape when things were not great at home, and 2) I learned so much about human frailty, compassion, etc. And I think both things exist in the HP series -- you can "get away" (but within the context of your own world), but you also have great characters. Oh, speaking of good children's series, has anyone read The High King series by Lloyd Alexander (I think the official title is the Chronicles of Prydain). By far one of my most favorite kids' fantasy series.

Oh, and I don't think JKR is "mediocre" in her prose; she just writes very accessibly. I also don't think we can credit her with a rise or fall in reading among young people. You would have to have several JKR-style book options to keep reading popular, but as milli (I think milli?) also mentioned, you have to give kids time to detox from school. I used to HATE reading for school because it would ruin the book for me. E.g., I had to read To Kill a Mockingbird in 7th grade and couldn't get into it, but when I reread it for fun the summer after 8th grade I loved it. The only difference was that it was on my schedule and when I was in my own world.

Oh, as for HP5, I also really liked the actress who played Tonks!

Guardian OBO: Much more than cricket.

"OBO-ers have one last chance for this hilarious-yet-potentially-violent jape. This evening, on the train platform home, have a conversation into your mobile phone along the lines of "Yes. I stayed up until midnight on Friday to get it. Yeah - it's great. Have you got to the part yet where Ron dies?" Then just sit back, listen out for the groans, and revel in the fact that you're not the one reading the children's book." Yes, I can exclusively reveal the last line if you like. It was the very first line of the series I ever read. Would that be popular?

"If Ron actually does die, you'll have made about 17 work-shy office workers who are both reading Harry Potter and OBO incandescent with rage. Imagine the reaction" says Tom Rothery. Yes. He dies. The last line...? "His bloodied corpse slumped against the wall, guts spilling out onto the concrete floor. Harry lit his last Marlboro and with a contented sigh, uttered: "suck on that, you ginger fool"."

There is so much character development in her writing, and it is just as much character-driven as plot driven. So much intricate description of an amazing world.

Absolutely! The character development of central as well as secondary figures and how the tid bits are sprinkled through the story, with the picture becoming more deep and rich as the series evolves is amazing. There are so many characters and each plays a peculiar role in the plot. Wrapping all of this together into something cohesive is nothing short of brilliant.

When the greatness of creation significantly outweighs the human imperfections, is it really worth being so narrow minded simply to argue that imperfetions exist?

Hmm. This statement seems eerily applicable for another cinematic contribution.

how come nobody's mentioning the obvious here?
The book is racist!

come on, harry -> hairy? potter -> pre-industrial developing society?
a "hero" who's bespectacled and does nothing, and is always in need of help from dashing young woman -- who's white!
Hello, white (wo)man's burden?

I won't hesitate to admit I don't read H.P. -- but it's because it is imperialist and racist!

What I remember about reading was that 1) it provided an escape when things were not great at home, and 2) I learned so much about human frailty, compassion, etc.

Absolutely!

Oh, speaking of good children's series, has anyone read The High King series by Lloyd Alexander (I think the official title is the Chronicles of Prydain).

No, I'm not familiar with them...Tuck Everlasting - that was a powerful children's book. After I read it I was happy that one day I was going to die (I mean that I wasn't afraid of dying)! Don't mean to veer away from the Potterwalla topic though.

Hmm. This statement seems eerily applicable for another cinematic contribution.

I swear, I had a feeling you/someone would come out with this. Frankly, it's applicable to all art. There is a difference between fiction and non-fiction works though and how one judges each.

There is a difference between fiction and non-fiction works though and how one judges each.

Non-fiction is stranger.

Hypertree I trust your comment was snark or some variation thereof ... it made absolutely no sense....

Camille & PS, I haven't read those books you guys mention, will try & pick them up ... I think children's lit is actually as interesting a genre as any other, I even read & like Judy Blume's Fudge series! :) In my opinion, books provide a way to escape your world, whether things are bad at home/school/work or whatever, they are a wonderful escape. Of course, I love to read when I am happy too - most books make me feel happier and content ... some greats can make me cry like a baby too.

About reading speed, well, I am a bit of a speed reader, I even read the Fountainhead in about 7 hrs ... my father refused to believe me and quizzed me for days on the material, the last laugh was mine because I answered all his questions correctly! For me the test is of a 'good' or gripping book is how many times I want to read it. My favourites have been read over and over again, even though I get into the book each time, I feel like I discover new layers when I reread. Especially the HP series that we are discussing, I *really* got all the myriad connections between the books only on second or even a third reading .... if I like reading a book more than once and still feel like reading it again ... that's a really good book for me.

I don't get why reading for school should put anyone off a book, to be fair, I never had to read a specific book for school. In my school, we had to pick any book we liked from the school library (from our grade level) and then write a book report on it. I loved that and loved the books I picked ... maybe it is the compulsory reading? To Kill a Mockingbird was lovely but I really appreciated it only when I got older and knew more about the world esp America. But I do think that TV puts people & esp kids off books. When you can get your entertainment with so little exertion of brainpower, it makes people reluctant to think. When I grew up, books and playing with friends were your primary source of fun. We had TV but very few channels and only about an hour a day was worth watching. There is no way JKR or any one author can change this, I believe parents must first introduce their children to the joys of reading before letting them see TV ... my mom used to reward me with a Amar Chitra Katha for every nice drawing or nicely written A,B,C and I was hooked at 4! After that I was introduced to EB and since then all my disposable income (every naya paisa of my pocket money back then) has been reserved for books. Someone mentioned Richmal Crompton & Anthony Buckeridge, I loved and still love William and Jennings, wish there were more female madcap characters!

BTW all Washington DC/Baltimore sepia readers should check out The Book Thing whose mission is to give away free books! Of course you don't get the latest books but I have picked up quite a few all time greats including PG Wodehouse, Agatha Christie, Steinbeck and even hard to find (and therefore buy) books like one of the Billy Bunter series by Frank Richards - which is a laugh riot if you haven't read them.

Urmila:

I don't get why reading for school should put anyone off a book, to be fair, I never had to read a specific book for school. In my school, we had to pick any book we liked from the school library (from our grade level) and then write a book report on it. I loved that and loved the books I picked .

I had the misfortune to be "assigned" quite a few very good and great books by English teachers who were unimaginative and dictatorial in their educational skills. So "The Great Gatsby," "One Day In the Life of Ivan Denisovich," "Lord of the Flies," and even "Catch-22" were all turned into dull, rote, stupid assignments that sucked all the juice out of them. Powerful stories, but when you have 20 mandatory short-answer questions at the end of each chapter demanding your understanding of theme, narrative structure, character development, etc. you quickly lose sight of the actual work in question.

It took me 25 years to forget that kind of trauma and revisit them, and do you know? I still had literal flashbacks to the paperback versions I had to read when I was a kid.

Bleah.

...."Catch-22" were all turned into dull, rote, stupid assignments that sucked all the juice out of them.

Salil,
I cannot imagine Catch-22 ever being dull .Sorry that the assignment ruined what is my favorite book ever for you.Joseph Heller was a genius

Urmila, what's not to make sense of, it pains me to see H.P. fans blind themselves so
It reminds me of how desi Obama fans blinded themselves to "memo-gate"...

Magic Faraway tree series had on me when I was a kid growing up in Chennai.

Oh yes, I loved the Magic Faraway Tree books.

Salil:

I had the misfortune to be "assigned" quite a few very good and great books by English teachers who were unimaginative and dictatorial in their educational skills. So "The Great Gatsby," "One Day In the Life of Ivan Denisovich," "Lord of the Flies," and even "Catch-22" were all turned into dull, rote, stupid assignments that sucked all the juice out of them. Powerful stories, but when you have 20 mandatory short-answer questions at the end of each chapter demanding your understanding of theme, narrative structure, character development, etc. you quickly lose sight of the actual work in question.

That really sucks! I hate questions like narrative structure, character development, plot points etc. That is why our free form critiques in the form of book reports, where we judged not only for our understanding of the stories, the layers within them and the nuances but also for the quality of our writing, were so much more fun. It's especially sad that such great works of books were rendered dull & boring due the assignments.

sorry - bad editing in my previous comment

especially sad that such great books were rendered dull & boring due the assignments.

Also a great book :) Maybe it's what hooks you that drives the reading speed? I know that's how it is for me. If I'm not into the story, it takes me forever. If I like what I'm reading, or it's very accessible, it goes really quickly.

I think you're right, the book I mentioned is a great story, and just like HP, there's lots of characters that wear pointy hoods. No potions though.

Re: 73

Regarding criticisms of the Harry Potter series: I don't get the underlying "JKR isn't that great of a writer, but if it gets kids excited and into reading, that's great" attitude or that her work is sub-par. This isn't directed at anyone in particular here, just an observation I've noted right now since we're discussing popular culture.

I don't see anything wrong with the second part of the statement. If it does indeed get kids excited and into reading, then that's nothing to be sneered at. As for some of the posters considering Rowling not to be that great a writer, that's a perfectly acceptable subjective opinion, isn't it? I, for instance, find her to be a writer who is good and who has improved over the course of the series, but don't consider the books to be on a par with those I view as "great" in children's literature. Similarly, there are posters here like you who consider the series a classic. I believe we are both entitled to our opinions, aren't we?

Many are great technical writers, especially critics, but do they have the talent to write a tale, a book, a work of fiction that has the ability to captivate so many? I think not.

Probably not, but does that make their critiques invalid? Or do we all have to publish and sell more books than author X in order to critique X's work?

People can use arguments of commercialization, marketing, selling out, etc. Why is an artist/writer/talent blamed for becoming popular or so widely accepted? The notion that the public should accpreciate certain works vs. others is utter crap. As with any work of art, the level of appreciation (how much you like it) really depends on how the art expressed speakes to your own experiences. Obviously, in the case of fantasy/fiction, we're talking about the more human elements. The greatness of the Harry Potter series is in it's ability to speak to different audiences (adult, adolecent, children) and probably convey nuanced messages.

I don't believe most of the "critics" here are such elitist prigs that they would suggest that an artist/writer/talent is less talented simply because of the popularity of her work. However, you might want to be slightly cautious about the converse -- equating great popularity with great art. Unless, of course, you want to suggest that Dallas or Baywatch are examples of great art in television.

It's strength and popularity is in it's simplicity, yet brilliant story telling.

A little too soap opera-esque for me, but enjoyable nevertheless.

The Deathly Hallows is a solid ending to one of the most well told tales, and yes, an instant classic. For those who don't agree this isn't an instant classic, as the bulk of the current generation get older, it'll be accepted as such anyway.

Personally, and without providing spoilers, the ending smacked a little too much of deus ex machina to me. But as I've already mentioned, it was still thoroughly enjoyable. If it does end up being considered a classic by the current generation, that's great. If it doesn't, that's fine too. What matters, to me at least, is that a series of rather enjoyable books were available for reading, by me and by many children who generally tend to prefer movies, television, and video games to books.

Re: 85

Someone mentioned Richmal Crompton & Anthony Buckeridge, I loved and still love William and Jennings, wish there were more female madcap characters!

Urmila, I believe that was me. As for female madcap characters, the two school series by Blyton, Malory Towers and St. Clare's, featured a decent number of arguably madcap protagonists in girls' boarding schools.

To add to # 94 Enid Blyton also wrote the "naughtiest girl " series with quite the madcap heroine.

Also I know EB is outdated and very un- PC by today's standards but George( Georgina) of the Famous Five was the one character that I identified with so much when growing up ( maybe because I was a bit of a tom-boy myself!)

I don't see anything wrong with the second part of the statement. If it does indeed get kids excited and into reading, then that's nothing to be sneered at. As for some of the posters considering Rowling not to be that great a writer, that's a perfectly acceptable subjective opinion, isn't it? I, for instance, find her to be a writer who is good and who has improved over the course of the series, but don't consider the books to be on a par with those I view as "great" in children's literature. Similarly, there are posters here like you who consider the series a classic. I believe we are both entitled to our opinions, aren't we?

Or do we all have to publish and sell more books than author X in order to critique X's work?

I don't believe most of the "critics" here are such elitist prigs that they would suggest that an artist/writer/talent is less talented simply because of the popularity of her work. However, you might want to be slightly cautious about the converse -- equating great popularity with great art. Unless, of course, you want to suggest that Dallas or Baywatch are examples of great art in television.

A little too soap opera-esque for me, but enjoyable nevertheless.

What matters, to me at least, is that a series of rather enjoyable books were available for reading, by me and by many children who generally tend to prefer movies, television, and video games to books.

Er, since obviously a number of you are 1.5-gen like me and are wallowing in the book-related nostalgia brought on by this thread, I have to ask: do any of you remember a series of English textbooks from our schooldays called "Fundamental English"? While teaching the basics of grammar and comprehension, it also featured short stories about a middle-class English family, the Bargerys, that gradually "grew up" with us in a manner reminiscent of Harry Potter and his readers.

Salil, amen brother! I don't think anything quite sucks the life out of a book the way pedantic, unimaginative reading assignments do. Most of the time we weren't even reading for themes or style, we were doing quote identification (one of my least favorite tasks of all time). The worst is, like you mentioned, that many of these books are amazing when read in their own stride and on your own terms.

For me the test is of a 'good' or gripping book is how many times I want to read it. My favourites have been read over and over again, even though I get into the book each time, I feel like I discover new layers when I reread.

I also, for the record, really like the Dealing with Dragons series, which is really witty and has excellent female main characters. I don't know if it's lit in the same umbrella as Narnia, Alice in Wonderland, etc., but it is funny contemporary young adult lit.

HMF, is it any coincidence that both Malcolm X and Harry Potter feature "pure blood" adherents who push a policy of eugenics? Hmmm...

Shaad, I have to tell you, having called the HP ending two years ago when I finished Book 6, I felt entirely vindicated and self-satisfied/smarmy. Still do, actually :) What was remarkable to me was that, having called it, I didn't feel disheartened like I normally do. I felt pretty satisfied/content.

Shaad:

Urmila, I believe that was me. As for female madcap characters, the two school series by Blyton, Malory Towers and St. Clare's, featured a decent number of arguably madcap protagonists in girls' boarding schools.

and Runa

To add to # 94 Enid Blyton also wrote the "naughtiest girl " series with quite the madcap heroine.

Also I know EB is outdated and very un- PC by today's standards but George( Georgina) of the Famous Five was the one character that I identified with so much when growing up ( maybe because I was a bit of a tom-boy myself!)

Well, I meant more the William type character, who really doesn't give a fig for authority and if he could get away with it, would never ever go to school! As for Jennings, while he has admirable motives, all his endeavors end badly (for him, for us it is lots of laughs). None of EB's characters except maybe Mr. Muddle have any of that kind of zaniness. Most of EB's females are really into school, want to do well and to have fun ... pretty much in that order. Since that was a good description of me (when I didn't have my nose buried in a book!) I really identified! But underneath all the fun - they were all girls who respected authority and had fun in pretty much the 'approved' manner (barring the occasional midnight school feasts) except for Elizabeth (the Naughtiest Girl) and even she held out only for 1 term.

Just want to say I am having so much fun discussing these books, they were my staple for so many years! :)

Shaad, I never read 'Fundamental English' but then I am not a 1.5 gen ... is it something you studied in the US? In India, Bombay (SSC) we used Wren and Martin for Grammar and a state textbook for English (apart from the books for the book report of course).

Re: 98

I also, for the record, really like the Dealing with Dragons series, which is really witty and has excellent female main characters. I don't know if it's lit in the same umbrella as Narnia, Alice in Wonderland, etc., but it is funny contemporary young adult lit.

Written by Patricia Wrede, weren't they, Camille? Her books do tend to feature strong female protagonists. A slightly more adult series by her and Caroline Stevermer is the Cecelia and Kate series, which features the adventures of the protagonists with sorcery and polite society in a Regency-era world, and is written in the form of epistolary novels/letter games. I believe she also had another pair of pseudo-Regency romances featuring Mairleon the Magician.

Re: 99

Urmila, I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. While there were books with female protagonists in our childhood, after all was said and done, there was still that unspoken double standard: only boys could be allowed to be total rebels, girls were still expected to be young ladies. Fortunately, that seems to have changed in the current crop of children's literature: Cimorene in the Dealing with Dragons series, Lyra in the His Dark Materials trilogy, Hester Shaw in the Hungry City Chronicles, Sabriel in the Old Kingdom trilogy, etc.

By the way, I'm using the Sepoy Mutiny "definition" of 1.5 gen: went to high school in the homeland (Bangladesh) and college in the States. And yes, we had Wren and Martin too. What was interesting and appealing about the Fundamental English series though, was seeing the day-to-day life of the fictional Bargery family, their challenges, small victories, trials and tribulations: dealing with school, then careers and romance, deaths in the family, etc. With hindsight, I realize that there was even a cliched gay friend of the family, portrayed of course as a very proper bachelor "uncle", but one who knew people in the art world and was able to enroll the youngest Bargery sibling in an Art academy, when he showed a talent for painting.

I know there's a lot of unnecessary derision of the Potter books because they are "children's literature" (though so are the Narnia books and I see plenty of adults reading them). But the Potter books are so much more. Like Star Wars was supposed to be the modern fairy tales for the Gen-Xers, the Potter series is the new set of fairy tales for the modern age. They're allegories, and stories that track the growth and life of one boy into an adult. As the boy has grown, so have the stories. They've gotten more complex, darker, and more meaningful. There is a whole generation of children that read Harry Potter and are coming to age now with him.

The themes tackled in these books are not light subjects: death of family, coping with living by oneself in a strange and distant land, away from all that is familiar, the discovery of one's power, coming to terms with bad decisions and personal faults, the gifts of friendship, and the power of sacrifice. To boot, these books raise the issues of equality for all, and carry a feminist undercurrent.

They're great books, and people should not let either the hype or the movies dissuade them from picking them up. Honestly, you have nothing to lose from exposing yourself to some more culture. The first two books only take about 3 days to read in total.

Give them a try.

Written by Patricia Wrede, weren't they, Camille? ...

I love love love the Abhorsen/Old Kingdom series. It's one of the darkest and best written "new" young adult series that's been released in the last 10 years. This is probably one of the best parts about more recent lit -- the increasing portrayal of "sheroes." I don't think all of Tamora Pierce's works are the best thing ever when it comes to this, but I do like her most recent series (Trickster..) for both the originality and the the personality of her heroines.

The first two books only take about 3 days to read in total.

I think it's been established that this is a sliding scale.