July 24, 2007
On Respect for our EldersNews
Please. Spare us your liberal Western Judeo-Christian BS. Hinduism is far superior when it comes to questions of individual growth and development. For example, we don’t consider death a chance to go to happy land up in the sky, so that article about the baby is total BS. Life and death are part of the same cycle for us. A wife is subservient to her husband because Sita was subservient to Ram. Yeah, a Westerner may not understand that, but at least in India we don’t need to place condom machines in every university bathroom. We don’t have a whole porn industry devoted to the exploitation of vulnerable women. We don’t put our elders in nursing homes because of an obsession with career promotion. We value our families, and just as importantly, the larger community. And Hindu women have done just fine for 5000+++ years, thank you very much. So cut this feminist BS. Next you’ll be promoting gay rights in India. Liberalism is NOT going to destroy the fabric of our society. [sm]
I volunteered at a nursing home while attending college in the US. Many of the elderly women told me that their children visit only during holidays. Most of the day, these elderly people would be playing cards, or watching television or some such activity. But even though these children had neglected their parents, parents being parents, the parents (even with all the amnesia and what not) would remember their kids and often reminisce, out of the blue.
When I see young Indian kids walking around with their grandparents, I can appreciate the harmony of Indian culture. I know that that venerable revered being will not have to extinguish his/her days, sitting around a table playing cards or wait for the next holiday to see a family member. There is something more important trying to outwit your husband in every aspect (feminism), and I would have to say that this is the image of you that you project onto your children. After all, a parents are a child’s first role models. [sm]
When the desi nursing homes actually materialize, then we can debate it…Have you been in a nursing home? Have you seen the size of one of the cramped rooms they have for occupants? Its disgusting. Desi’s will never go down that path, thankfully. [sm]
::
Via an Anonymous Tipster:
Indian granny thrown on garbage dump
An Indian couple found an unwell 75-year-old woman lying on a garbage dump, apparently thrown out of her home by her daughter and grandsons who did not want to take care of her, the Hindustan Times reported.
“She never complained about her family’s behaviour, only rued the fact that she couldn’t move without help,” Mohanasundari, one of the rescuers, said.
The “semi-paralysed” Palaniappan told her rescuers her youngest daughter had quarrelled with other family members over who should take care of her. The daughter then got her sons to take their grandmother to the dump in the southern state of Tamil Nadu.
Sons and daughters have traditionally looked after their elderly parents but sociologists say that the pressures of modern life are seeing more elderly people abandoned by their children or sent to old-age homes.
Politicians expressed outrage over Palaniappan’s fate and said they would ask officials to take action against the family.
“I have asked the collector (a local official) to take care of the old lady, and take legal action against the children,” state Social Welfare Minister Poongothai, who like many in Tamil Nadu goes by one name, was quoted as saying.
I loathe the fact that I even need to state this so explicitly, but my intent is not to make India/Indians/Hindus/Tamils/your name here look bad; it’s to point out that despite what some commenters in our community have maintained, no society or culture is perfect.
I am an enthusiastic cheerleader for our culture, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t be critical of it, too. It’s not an either/or proposition. If anything, this situation reminds me of “family”; I can pick on my sister all I want, but the second someone else does, I’m zeroing in on their jugular. There is no malice behind my words when I lament something like female infanticide, just sorrow.
Elder abuse happens everywhere, even “back home”. Does this negate the undeniable significance we place on family and respect? No. We can extol India’s magnificence without resorting to denial and delusion.
anna on July 24, 2007 01:00 PM in Issues, News · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
That kind of says it all right? Can't deny that Indian culture expected the children to look after parents in their old age .But like everything else that is also changing as the article said .Without oversimplyfing, one reason could be that in times past in India, folks tended to stay in one place due to the agrarian based economy . Add to that land ownerhip and it made sense for families to stay close together. Times have changed now.People move in search of work.Indian youth are tasting independence and freedom. Add to this the crazily rising property prices and there will be many more cases of elder abuse because of greed or plain indifference.
None of this is meant to be a justification of elder abuse - just a comment on the changing sociological landscape.
Did somebody say Baghban?
Anna: - We can extol India's maginificence without resorting to denial and delusion - . Right on!! Keep up the good work and I congratulate you on providig forum for discussions of your bold, open and often critical, controvercial, and yet necessary to talk about issues.
In general, when the depth of an analysis is "indians do this. westerners do that" its usually not worth thinking about that analysis.
that movie was amazing. salman kan playing the good son after he kills a bunch of poor people.
"If anything, this situation reminds me of “family”; I can pick on my sister all I want, but the second someone else does, I’m zeroing in on their jugular."
Anna:
It's all very well to promise protection to a younger sister; but would you protect an aged person; a person whose beauty has gone; a person who has no property to bequeath you; a person who cannot even babysit your children; a person who needs elder care herself? Would you do it when you are frustrated in your own career? When you are frustrated with your marriage? When your husband is not supportive? When your own savings have dwindled? What if the dependent woman were, not your mother, but your mother-in-law?
Every couple needs to face these questions and resolve them. I cannot but emphasize that this is where the spouse's support is important. In the case of Ms Palaniappan, I blame the son-in-law more than the daughter.
This is a great topic of discussion.
I'm not a big fan of old age homes as in none of the older folks I'm responsible for will end up in one if I can help it. But I feel that the Indian view of old age homes in the US is often distorted because of negative potrayals of old age homes in the media, movies and society in general. We can give anecdotal incidents of abuse at old age homes but the fact is most old homes do a pretty good job of letting seniors spend their last days in dignity.
For people who cannot or will not look after their older folks, it is their moral responsiblity to at least find a decent old age home for them.
wery nyceee..
With respect to this, I think there's a great need for formulated models, discussions of gender roles, localized policy and plain old ingenuity, so that some semblance of traditional family structures have a chance of surviving without resorting to hyper-commodification of social roles in households. Granted some people are a pain in the ass and varying temperaments can clash with no hope of peace; but, it would be a shame if old-age homes become a first resort simply because we find each other disagreeable. And to clarify what I mean about discussing gender roles, North Indians consider it shameful if the groom takes residence in his in-laws house or it's taboo if the brides parents live with the new couple. Certain taboo's are hard to break in India but in America family structures are more fungible and therein lies the opportunity to craft a household that incorporates both crude economic demands as well as the benefits of extended family. Man, I hope I'm not a dreamer.
Yes, elderly abuse happens everywhere, but you can replace it with practically any other situation and any other place in the world, and someone can find you an example that goes against it.
The point is, Elderly homes, or as they call it here in NY, "assisted living communities", is a BUSINESS. It is a societal norm, it is expected. By any parameter, anyone over the age of 18 living with their parents is termed a loser and a dork. Back home, people live with their parents/children for life (other things permitting, of course).
And for that, America can take their western liberalism and shove it.
And that too will change. And no doubt cultural nationalists will point the finger at the West when it is actually a product of a phenomenon that is hard to put a finger on.
Palaniappan is a male name ("Palani" - a temple town in Tamil Nadu ; "appan" - lord or master. "Palaniappan" - Lord Murugan). I wonder why the granny has that name. Either she's identified by her husband's name or someone got their facts mixed up.
I don't know much about having to dump parents due to economic pressures and about how/whether to judge people who do that. My income is enough to be able to take care of my parents if I wanted to, or adopt kids, or donate to charity. For me, it is a matter of choice. For others, it may not be.
What a bad article by Reuters.
1. Palaniappan - that just cannot be her name
2. They don't bother mentioning the name of the city or town. Who cares right? The "look what's going on over in India" point has been made. Why bother further?
3.
Why do they have to say this ALL the time. There are lots of people in the world who go by just one name. Who decided that people should have a given name and a surname? There are also places in India (AP for example) where names have several words (including village name etc). Yet they keep sending these application forms to all corners of the world with exactly 2 word fields (no less no more) for name and exactly 5 digits for postal code."And to clarify what I mean about discussing gender roles, North Indians consider it shameful if the groom takes residence in his in-laws house or it's taboo if the brides parents live with the new couple."
That's all right if the parents are 50--60 years. Not when they touch 70. At that point, there is more class in living in close proximity.
I said:
P.G. Wodehouse said:
I didn't make my point very clearly, I'm afraid. :) I meant that it's fine for me to criticize my family, but the second someone outside of it does, I'm defensive. Meaning I understand what it's like to struggle with an issue like this re: India, especially the way the conflict shifts the second someone who isn't desi says something disparaging; I want to smack them. It's complicated and painful.
Beyond that, yes, I'd like to think that basic human decency would mean that I protect those whom I am related to, who are vulnerable; if I am unable to do so, I'd seek outside help. I understand this may not be an option in India, but that doesn't justify throwing a helpless, semi-paralyzed human away as if they were garbage. Inexcusable, even if every scenario you asked me about were true.
What a sad story, elderly abuse happens more then it is accounted for. They work their whole life for their family only to be thrown out, knocked about, treated with no respect and more importantly no love. East or west, does not matter, it happens and needs to stop!
Many would see in this a problem not with Indian culture and tradition but the deviation from culture and tradition.
The case with female infanticide is different because that is an indictment of culture and tradition.
There is a lot of news stories on abandoned baby girls that show up in Indian newspapers that get wide coverage in the West. Even though these grab the attention to the plight the skewed gender ratios in Punjab and other states tell a more horrific tale. They highlight the fact that female infanticide is not just a problem with poor uneducated people but also well-heeled middle class people who use modern technology to abort female fetuses.
Elderly abuse is more a problem of the times. With so many young people living outside India many old people are left to fend for themselves and are vulnerable for abuse. Also the utopia of multi-generation families living under one roof is a thing of the past. Until we come up with better senior living the elderly are going to find themselves neither here nor there.
I do not know about the rest of India but in South India several cities are building wonderful senior living facilities in places like Chennai, Palghat and Coimbatore. The changes are coming but slowly.
“What if the dependent woman were, not your mother, but your mother-in-law?”
does she not become your mother as well, no one wants to be dependent on others, elderly people have pride too. What ever problems people have ultimately they are their problems. People forget that elderly people understand and can communicate, better then most people, sons (in law) and daughters (in laws) dismiss them as old bloody fools. Sickening.
Then you would throw them on a nuclear waste dump instead.
I was about to say the same thing. However, money is the cause in both the cases. Probably that explains both. In a nation of a billion and odd people with 30% below the poverty line (
That's precisely why I can't bear cultural nationalists/conservatives of the type Anna quoted. Indian social conservatism seems to be driven by a deep, deep inferiority complex. Unfortunately, I only see more and more elderly parents being abandoned by their children in the future.
As for the condoms in university bathrooms, it's only a matter of time before we start seeing those in India too. Not such a bad thing, in my view. It would simply mean an India more like the India of the Kama Sutra and less like the current, sexually repressed one.
Cultures and cultural norms can be different without one saying the other is wrong or inferior. I don't think that most people is the US want to place their parents in a nursing home, although I'm sure some regard caring for their parents or in-laws as a burden and do indeed dump their parents in a nursing home or assisted living facility etc.
Both my Grandmothers refused to move in with their children, despite offers from multiple children in different states. One felt that she would be abandoning her husband's memory by moving from the house and city that they lived in for the previous twenty years. The other is a bit set in her ways and likes her house "the way it is", although I personally feel it's that she had macular degeneration and is afraid that she would be able to get around as easily in a different home.
Still other cultures I've encountered (Indian, Persian, Mexican) do seem to place more of a value on family than so called Western or American cultures. I have always been close to my family, although not as much now due to my mother and her views on mixed marriages (that's the nice way of putting it). The byproduct is that I've become closer with my in-laws (dinner every Sunday, Ammamma takes care of baby Asha, etc) and I do see the value in being with family. I don't feel one ounce of shame for staying over at the in-laws house as often as we do and we move into our eventual suburban McMansion there will be a room for them if they want it.
I would say that in today's society people are living longer with more chronic problems that often require more care and skill than even the most well meaning son or daughter can deliver.
Excellent point.
Anna:
As usual, you've put up an excellent topic for discussion. I really like the way you've taken an essay, which is so clearly nationalistic, and immediately provided an example which contradicts it's main premise - the idea that 'in India, these things don't happen.'
I often wonder why people feel a need to be culturally superior. Even if an act or belief is inherently good or based in compassion (ie, the desire to care for one's parents and grandparents), saying that 'we Indians are superior because we do this' taints those compassionate feelings with a sense of egotism. There would be fewer problems in the world, I think, if we recognized that good and bad exists everywhere, and that it is up to us to choose right or wrong action in any given situation. But, I suppose latent racism is a way for some to feel secure...sad, isn't it?...especially, when you consider all of the animosity it builds.
There is nothing wrong with taking pride in one's heritage...especially regarding things which make the world a more caring place. What's problematic is when that pride turns into an arrogant (and sometimes violent) sense of superiority...not sure I really wanna be part of that:)
I often wonder why people feel a need to be culturally superior.
90% of human beings think they are above the 50th percentile in looks & intelligence ;-) i think that's the seed.
There is nothing wrong with taking pride in one's heritage
though many people disagreed with me the last time i said this, i think if you take pride in your heritage, however you relate to you, you should feel proportionate shame in it as well. one can be proud of one's particular culture without white-washing the less than flattering aspects. i take some pride in being an american, but i also do take shame in my country's legacy of slavery and oppression. it isn't relevant that my ancestors were in a far off land at that time. similarly, when i had a german friend (exchange student) who would never shut up about the superiority of goethe, wagner and what not, in comparison to american cultural products (i do tend to agree that in many ways american "high" culture does not favor comparably) i pointed out that to glory in germany was also to remember its rather horrible past and not neglect its memory.
“What's problematic is when that pride turns into an arrogant (and sometimes violent) sense of superiority”.
Really good point. Why is it taboo to let go? If you can not handle it then let go, do not throw away! But it has to be communicated, people need to flipping talk before it gets violent!
People want to show, SHOW how caring they are caring, helping elderly in public functions, people see, look how nice these kids are, then when it really matters they are nowhere to be seen, part time grandchildren. Its hypocrisy at its best.
homes already exist in the us targeting south asians. there's even many already in india. so we do do it.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/4967760.html
http://www.alamedacenter.com/indian_program.htm
Even after this?
http://www.moviemistakes.com/tv3164/quotes
Re: # 29 ,
I for one wish that our "culture" would stop us from turning our noses up at assisted living/senior care centers whether here or in India. I wish we would not let imagined cultural taboos get in the way of pratical solutions.My parents live in India because nothing will induce them to move here or into my sibling's home .They value their independence and I know that when the time comes that they cannot manage living independently they would much rather prefer to live in an assisted living facility in India .I wish there were more options and that there was way to ensure that they provide good and safe care
it depends on what you mean by 'shame', if that shame leads to a sense of responsibility to rectify wrongs, or equalize ill-gotten gains, then sure, if it means guilt then it's morbid and useless.
Also, just want to say that I think it's unfair to say that all "Westerners" only visit their parents in nursing homes during holidays, etc. I have known a bunch of people who 1) visit their elderly parents daily & 2) for whom it is an extremely painful and practically choiceless decision to put their parents in homes. I can say this for my own family, too, because once my grandmother came here from Pakistan and got very sick, my single-parent full-time working mother couldn't take care of her alone and had to put her in a medical home for a number of months before bringing her back home. The way we live here is very different, and if you aren't of a certain socio-economic background, you can't help the way certain things are; you can't afford servants & nursemaids on a whim.
PS- I know that ANNA wasn't saying that Westerners do that, but just in general as an attitude, it bothers me when people think that. So I agree with ANNA but want to make my point explicit =)
I agree with all the people above who have become tired of the overly nationalistic Indians pushing the oh so greatness of india on this site. This is an indian-american site it is intended to be a place where indian-americans can talk about things that bother them in America and in India. The quotes Anna used above illustrate the reason why so many people I know have begun to abandon this site. You nationalistic browbeaters have taken a safe place and made it hostile.
If you are proud of india, fine be proud. If you dont like negative things being said about india, fine say so civilly. But if you cant find yourself doing either then next time someone says something about Obama, or Hillary or life in the US in general keep your damn mouth shut.
A reason so many elderly live with their children in India may be because there is a servant usually that can take care of the elderly person during the day and take care of the kids and the house the rest of the time. Give me a servant in the USA and it would make it much easier to have elderly parents live with me. Also, in the USA there is enough income/wealth to pay for assisted living facilities; in India a middle-class family likely could not afford to send an elderly parent to a nursing home, assuming one existed.
A bit more detail (including her full name) on the story at this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6907269.stm
It’s very easy for armchair philosophers to extol the virtues of India and its magnificent culture without actually seeing the real India or having to experience the pains of real life. This hits home and is personal to me.
My mother is bed ridden, in complete ill health and in need of 24 hour nurse care. She has to have a separate caretaker at night who needs to stay up the whole night with her for the most part. Daytime is kinder to her and she sleeps. She gets all this care in her home where she has a cook, a maid a driver etc. Is this something I could provide for her? Perhaps if I were to give up my job if I don’t get fired and go on welfare.
Now my grandma lives with her who is not exactly in the best of health but is in the worst of old age when it comes to driving the women in the house, my mom, another aunt and her daughter in law who lives across the street crazy. Between my mother’s health issues and my grandmother’s demands of old age and right and a new grandchild in the house I can only imagine what this does in terms of pressure to my poor aunt who never ever complains and is always cheery and does her best to make everyone happy. If she complained I would be the first to empathize with her, not try to remind her about sacrifices made by mythological figures.
Some things are easy to preach when you don’t have to practice them yourself. Those particular people who do so make me severely ill.
Back in desh, neglect of elders & children, the so-called unproductive members of society has been an economic phenonomenon both in the agrarian & industrial societies. Whereas children are still looked on as investments for the future, older persons, especially widows, usually get a raw deal. Once upon a time there was a support system of other relatives etc. which I guess in today's fractured nuclear families has been missing. And sadly, our culture mostly ignores this loneliness & neglect. With a few exceptions like Pather Panchali or Saaransh it is always happy families doing fun things. At least in the US, there is a social services system that provides some relief, however bureaucratic it can be. In India, we are dependant on the kindness of relatives, or even strangers (or not, as in the HT story).
Asha's Dad and sa, dead on!
It's very easy to stand in a position of moral superiority when you've got the $$$ to afford servants in the home, or you've got the physical brawn, $$$ and time to be able to care for, say, a six-foot, 175-pound father with Alzheimers who requires round-the-clock supervision and care, but what about those who don't and/or physically can't?
As family size shrinks, and families no longer reside in the same cities or countries, those are choices that people with aging parents will have to face.
And what of the people who may not marry and have the additional support of a spouse?
re: brownland vs. whiteland. my mom always talked about "in bangladesh we don't do this" blah, blah, blah when i was a kid. when i visited bangladesh last time and talked to some of my cousins it was pretty obvious that my mom was sheltered and privileged in so many ways that she was not conscious or aware of. i wonder how many of our parents were the same.
“Some things are easy to preach when you don’t have to practice them yourself. Those particular people who do so make me severely ill”.
Exactly, but I have seen it from the other side, people going around preaching and bragging how they take care of their in laws, when in reality they leave them starving while they sit and eat like a newly wed couple. The show of how they remain part of the Indian culture, “pranam” as they kick the old when they are down.
It’s the hypocrisy that makes me severely ill.
I agree with the fact that no one is perfect.
The "other things" is the main issue with India and "Peer pressure" if you will, is also a contributer (although minor) that we often tend to overlook.
Well besides wealth, there is the question of independence. My 75 year old grandmother, prefers to live alone in her house and no amount of cajoling or convincing can get her to change her mind to come over to my parents house.
When you do not have places to go and things to do, your life comes to a stand still. Just like you and I, elders want to have a life. Assisted living gives them that. But in India, you do not need a special place for that, which makes this story even more heart breaking.
I think in the end it is all about giving them respect and doing what they want.
If your intention was to scare off Indians like me -resident in the USA - who enjoy this site and try to respond to the sometimes sweeping generalizations against our kind made by some commenters here - I won't go till the SM Intern bans me.You made me feel pretty uncomfortable though -thanks
"I think in the end it is all about giving them respect and doing what they want".
and Dignity.
runa, some of the most valued contributors to this website are self-identified indians (e.g., kush tandon). obviously sometimes born & raised americo-brownz need a reality check ;-) the issue is that some indians tend to make "hegemonic" claims and postures re: this site (e.g., i remember especially the comment "this site is all about india and indians").
Ty, what you are essentially saying is: go away you old, boring, noisy people who complicate our quick, neat, tidy and linear observations of the world.
I find that a little ironic on a thread where we will end up discussing the relative merits and demerits of intergenerational interactions.
Razib,
Thanks for the shout out. And I am just as disgusted as Ty and others are by the original commenter's stance ( I tracked back to the original thread that Anna pulled the comment from).He/She has a problem with everyone ( women/gays/westerners etc) and sounds like Ashok Singhal on crack.
Esoteric, obscure and somewhat tangentially related. Anyone remember that old show dinosaurs, they actually had a relevant episode (episode #3):
"Earl is excited to throw [Grandma] Ethyl into the tar pits on her 72nd birthday, an old dinosaur tradition. Ethyl mentions that the tradition was started by an old dinosaur named Bob La Brea, which is also the name of the school Robbie and Charlene attend: Bob La Brea High School. The tradition specifies that men have the honor (and pleasure) of throwing their mother-in-law off a cliff. The real La Brea Tar Pits are located in Los Angeles, California, but no dinosaurs have actually been found there. "
Lake Wobegon effect.
Hinduism is far superior when it comes to questions of individual growth and development ... A wife is subservient to her husband because Sita was subservient to Ram.
Oh boy. Uhhhh. Hmmmmm. Need I? Nevermind.
Life and death are part of the same cycle for us.
So are being an angel and an asshole, which each human on this planet is, but in varying proportions.
Runa, Malathi:
I know you guys are regulars here like I am. SM from what I understand is a place for the 2nd gen to interact with the 1 and 1.5 genners, for everyone to benefit from the mutual exchange of information. For everyone to learn, grow and express themselves with no fear.
Like with everything else in life, some people get what SM is about and some people do not. I do not come here expecting News from India, but I look at this place as a building block to expand my thinking. A lot of 1st /1.5 genners like myself get this and act accordingly.
Sometimes it pisses me off that a few DBD's do not get this. They expect SM to be an India centric news site, which it is not and we should not expect it to be one. Their comments if anything has denied us an opportunity to interact with other 2nd genners. I can think of a few of them who no longer comment.
Asking DBD's to shut up is just a very emotional cry asking them to please understand if you will. I will gladly accept that at times, people have beat me to a similar, but less emotional reaction.
As regulars we know that the audience here at SM has drastically changed, in most cases for the better and some instances for the worse. (The DC meetup's are always represented by the south, good thing Anna understands a little Tamil)
Off the top of my head, Kush Tandon doesn't inspire the kinds of anguished or emotional reaction ty had, coz he gets what SM is all about and he respects it and in turn he is respected. I am not suggesting that you or I do not deserve the same, we do. But if there was a realignment of expectations, everything would be improved.
Most contributers here at SM are ABD's. They have never claimed to write for us, but they have never denied us the chance to participate in the discussion and expand on what we (them and us) know.
Let's just be mindful of all of that...I think ty's strong reaction is but natural considering everything.
Emotional, but natural. :)
Karthik,
Yours was a measured response - mine was probably knee -jerk in response to Ty !
To get back on track though:
Is it not possible to choose the best of east and west ? There are aspects of the Indian /S Asian cultural "respect for our elders" that I love : such as standing up and greeting teachers or other elders, the special bonds with grandparents, the focus on the family etc. There are parts of this I do not like such as unquestioning obedience specially when it comes to matters such as marriage when one is expected to toe the line because the "elders" say so.
Similarly, I love the American culture of independence and the ability to be oneself, the innate practicality of life here.There are aspects of American culture too that I do not like or agree with - the tendency to let kids express themselves at the cost of others, for one.
However, elder abuse should be above such cultural conflicts because as Anna rightly said this is about human decency. How did this devolve into an us vs them debate?
Karthik, ty's comment was about DBDs who act overly defensive.
it is eerie how your comment matches that no?
I don't think Karthik's words resemble what Ty was upset about, at all. In any case, Karthik's comment, while kind, isn't the point of the post. As Runa (sort of) said, let's get back on track, please. :) Meta-commentary is so '04. ;)
Hypertree: The fact that I understand what ty is saying to say makes it eerie? Wow.
Slightly off topic, but I recently found out that students stand up at school because it relates to blood rushing to your head.
God how many times have I said head rush, but never tied both together. :)
I don't know about that - .My school /college it was strictly a respect thing same when older folks enter the room and since i really did have a lot of respect for my overworked, underappreciated teachers thats what it meant for me .My son as far as I know does not need to stand up for the teachers at his school
My comment was about those DBDs that act overly defensive and overly nationalistic to the point the conversation becomes you ABDs dont know what you are talking about when you talk about india and that ABD opinions are "leftist" and "uneducated". Meanwhile the very same overly defensive and overly nationalistic DBDs comment freely on topics that deal with ABDs. Did I go about saying this bluntly? Yes because i was tired of getting on sepiamutiny and reading anna's posts and the comments from people I consider peers and feeling sickened that even slight criticims of india cant be said without a back lash. Anna has never said anything remotely anti-india but receieved a diatribe from someone that completely missed the point of her statement and thought she was attacking india.
Runa and malathi your "knee jerk reaction" was exactly what i was talking about. You admit that the person who supplied the quotes that Anna referred to was wrong. But instead you reacted to my comment like it was an attack you percieved was against all indians and not just the overly nationalistic Indians (even though it is in the unhighlighted part of your quote) that have made commenters on this site feel like they have to walk on eggshells whenever an indian topic comes up. Just because i wasnt born in india doesnt mean i am not allowed to have an opinion contrary to someone else on what goes on there. karthik perhaps put it in a more calm and measured way than i have but having been chastized(like anna) for saything things that even slightly critize india on this website i reacted more emotionally than I should have.
Ty,
You are entitled to your opinion of me but for God's sake do NOT bracket me and crackhead Ashok Singhal types.
Knee jerk or not - your comment made me uncomfortable and brings out the great ABD/DBD divide .I do not regret my response any more than you regret your comment.
Go right ahead.And I reserve the right to comment back
It's tough...a lot of us have been here for years and the growing pains have been just that-- painful. But just like my Mom used to remind me, "It's worth it. You won't be short." or in our case, it's worth it, because some of our newest commenters are extra fantastic (including Rahul, Runa, Malathi, and the TamBrahm mafia...Maitri was our sole southern gangsta for soooo long... ;)
But I digress.
The thing is, we can't be all things to all people and that sucks, because this place IS special. I think what we all need to do, myself especially, is breathe, then post. Soon, the "new people" will become the old people and we'll have a whole new class of Freshmen to haze. KIDDING. You know what I mean. :)
If some of us ABDs/2nd Gens are territorial, it's because many of us grew up feeling isolated and out-of-place...which is something DBDs may or may not understand. I would have been elated if I had a space like this, during those lonely years when I had no brown people to relate to...now that some of us have found it, it's understandable that we're protective of it. Yes? :)
Now be nice to each other, or I'll force another meetup, and get you all loaded on either sugar, alcohol or BOTH.
Anna Akka , ( though technically I should call you thangai )
I am suitably chastened. Thanks for your beautiful response and stepping in to play peace-maker
Ty,
Handshake?
I find it hard to respect Indian culture when I consider the fact that thousands of girls are killed at birth. We might not have nursing homes full of old people but sure have towns/regions that have to import girls from other places for marrige because they've killed the at birth in their local area.
But it's not fair to give up on or denigrate something as massive as "Indian culture" because of one horrific social ill. The entire point I was trying to make with this post is that this either/or and black/white thinking gets us nowhere. Shades of grey. India and her culture are neither ALL bad nor ALL good.
Look, if anyone shares your rage and despair, it's me...but whenever we discuss such painful issues, we have to be very precise about our language, right? And that is SO difficult, when we are emotional (I know this better than anyone). I think I could speak for both of us when I say that ONE aspect of our culture is deplorable, because we don't value our women as much as we should.
Thank you, Asha's Dad, for that comment. As Anna and JOAT have stated that is totally right on. When my maternal grandfather, who has lived with us since I was 8 (no taboos about mummy's dad living with us for these northies) started to fall down a lot, including one night where he spent the entire night on the floor because none of us reason he had fallen and couldn't get up, we realized he needed more help than we could provide. My mom really, really, really, really, really (I can't say that enough) struggled with the decision to move my Nana into an assisted living facility and I have to say they are shelling out big bucks to make sure that it is the best of the best, because of that guilt.
Nana is actually really happy there and wonders why my parents didn't move him out there sooner. Though everytime he complains about the bland, midwest old people food they serve him, she feels guilty all over again. She really shouldn't feel guilty, but that is what years of our "culture" taught her--that what she is doing is wrong, Nana should be at home, etc. What really our culture is saying is give your parents the best care possible because they have given you the best care when you were growing up. Sometimes we have to use nontraditional methods to make sure that happens.
What does DBD stand for?
DBD = Desh-born desi
...I think. It's what we informally/collectively decided should replace "FOB", not that we proclaimed this or anything. ;)
First generation = DBD
Second generation = ABD (the artists formally known as ABCDs...ugh)
DBD - Desh Born Desi?
Not bad for a Gora
Desi, please. You're browner than my sister. And she's practically Chocolate-covered. ;)
I did always wonder, though-- why do you call Asha's grandmother (I'm assuming that is to whom you are referring) "Ammamma"? For us, that's more like chechi/akka/didi, i.e. older sister...-ish.
when my grandpa expired about a couple of years ago, we decided to move my grandma to our house thinking she will be better taken care of (she was too broken by grandpa's death). but now her confidence is shattered; she doesnt feel very secure; hates having to live in her son's house. we have spoiled the remaining years of her life by taking away her independence. its so sad....we meant good but ended up wrecking her.
Thanks for the post - I've had the topic on my mind recently. My partner and I are in our thirties working on the west coast, while my mother is in her late sixties and living on the east coast. Fortunately, she and I have openly discussed what we'll do when she gets older and requires care. My sibling, on the other hand, would never consider taking care of her in any fashion - whether monetary, emotionally or physically. Why? Child abuse.
I think one of the reasons people in the US have resorted to assisted living, or living in publically funded facilities, is that they were horrible parents. The social contract of children taking care (providing food/shelter, possibly more) of parents works when religion, economy, and mass culture all work together so adult children are compelled to care for the aging parents. That same social contract works very well in families with love at their core. For those families in which children are abused -mentally/sexually/verbally, or daughters/sons-in-laws are treated with abuse (2 topics it seems that older Desis in the US are loathe to acknowledge), newly gained social freedoms give adult children, i.e. my sibling, the opportunity and motivation to not care for their parents.
For me "Ammamma" means grandma, specifically my mom's mother. Perhaps that's how Asha's dad uses it? Anyway, thanks for the thought-provoking post.
"I think I could speak for both of us when I say that ONE aspect of our culture is deplorable, because we don't value our women as much as we should."
I don't think we can really seperate a society into different aspects because everything is connected. Because women in subservent to men, a woman has to go to where her husband is after they get married. Since they woman's family loses the resorces they invested into the woman, they perfer not to have girls. Parents also want sons so they will be taken care of them when they are older since they will stay with their family after marrige. In the U.S. the parents don't care as much about of the sex of the child because for the most part, their future is independent of it whereas in India, the sex of the child is a major factor in what will happen to the parents when they are old.
I did always wonder, though-- why do you call Asha's grandmother (I'm assuming that is to whom you are referring) "Ammamma"? For us, that's more like chechi/akka/didi, i.e. older sister...-ish.
For me too, I call my grandmother Amama - like someone said - mother's mother; It might depend where you are from in Kerala. I'm from north Kerala and I've heard my some of mom's southern kerala friends laughing on the my mom's malayalam's differences.
Cute pics of your little sis, Anna.
This is a great discussion you guys are having...
My sibs and I have gone back and forth in discussions on what to do about our parents.The logical solution was to find a facility for our mother, who has mental illness, addictions and gets in legal trouble regularly. We just aren't equipped or trained to handle her problems. My sister doesn't want her children exposed to drugs and prostitution and my other sibs and myself were abused, so really we don't have much choice here, do we?
I'm not Mallu but my mom's best friend is and we referred to her mother as Ammamma. She's from Trivandrum, I think. Don't know if that helps.
runa,
shake accepted.
wow... what a full (but spotty) discussion.
it seems to me that any culture-- American, Indian, or South African--has its good and bad aspects. and, often, they are different sides of the same coin. the positives of an American society driven by individualism and "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps" means that people aren't limited by their life's lot, but really can create a better life for themselves. however, this individualism/frontier mentality also means that we place too much emphasis on individual responsibility and not enough on family/community/systems. Indian culture has that same plus/minus situation: great degree of emphasis on family bonds, respect for elders, etc.-- which keeps people close-- but the hierarchical and, honestly patriarchal, familial system causes problems too. i've seen them in my own family; my grandmother (P) has been living with (mostly) my parents since my grandfather died nearly 25 years ago. according to Indian culture, she believes herself to be the "matriarch" and thinks she runs the show. but she's also too stubborn to admit that she's now old and needs help... and my mother, with her own health problems, is faced with the unpleasant prospect of having to take care of my grandmother at her own expense. that hardly seems right, or fair....
it seems to me that the greatest danger during any cultural shift is to cling to the ways of the past. it's natural, perhaps-- because they are comfortable, and we know them, and they remind us of being safe and in control. but it also leaves us open to being exploited. consider, for example, that my grandparents (M) who still live in Ahmedabad, recently had to install a screen outside the door of their flat because there was a rash of "slash and steal" crimes committed against elderly people living alone. or that they are isolated and in poor health because both of their children live in the States and there is no facility for them to go for better care?
as an ABD who grew up in a small, rural, Illinois farming town, i got the chance to see first hand "pure" American culture. it had the chance to take from it what suited me. and the fact that i've had the chance to live a life that i chose for myself, rather than the life someone imposed on me, is something i value very much-- and place squarely on the shoulders of "american culture." but that doesn't mean one throws out the baby with the bathwater (pun intended? not sure, perhaps its in bad taste). there is much to be learned from any culture-- both positive and negative.
"It is not the way I intended to live my life. It is dangerous, tough, thankless job... but someone's got to do it. It'd be nice if society did not need people like me but while it does... I will be right there." S. Vidyakar founder, Udavum Karangal
The Discarded Aged: The onset of old age awakens, in every human being, a sense of insecurity and helplessness. The aged require a lot of physical and emotional support from their kith and kin but the younger generation has neither time nor inclination to support the aged. Some people neither want to look after their aged parents nor do they want to spend money to keep them in old age homes. They just discard or chase the aged out of their house. Udavum Karangal is committed not only to give a dignified life to these aged but also a dignified death and last rights. Some of the aged who are leading a dignified life under our care are here.
This dolt
is full of it. The person who wrote that is a vadikattina muttaaL i.e, thrice distilled idot. And Anna the L is as the L in MoLey!Hi there, great blog. I've added the Fearless just to avoid confusion. I am not the Rahul who's generally first to comment.
This reminds me of an Amar Chitra Katha I read yeeeeeears ago. It was a Jataka Tale, which meant it was probably way older:
-----
Papa is taking Dada somewhere. Wise little Ramu wants to come but Papa says he can't. Ramu says wherever Dada is going, he can go too. So Ramu goes. They get to a secluded place, and Papa starts digging. "What are you digging?" asks wise little Ramu. Papa doesn't want to say.
Ramu persists, and an exasperated Papa confesses, "I'm digging Dada's grave. We can't afford to take care of him anymore."
"Oh, ok." says Ramu. He grabs a shovel and starts digging another hole.
Papa looks over and notices he is digging. "What are you doing?" he asks.
Ramu replies, "I'm digging your grave so that when you become too old I can bury you here." Papa bursts into tears and promises he won't throw Dada in the grave.
Moral: Do unto others, etc.
---
I'm guessing that throwing elders out to die is not a new occurrence. Not to belabor the point, but no culture is perfect, even one that consistently calls for respect of elders.
And what if she were your stepmother?
ANNA, it does not suck. yes, there have been a high number of rather unpleasant incidents on SM lately, many of them leading to closure of threads. overall, though, i really enjoy reading all these opinions. some are expressing viewpoints - from both DBDs and ABDs - that i have heard time and again, but there are so many people willing to aver varying views on all sorts of topics, which really proves the success of a site like this. it is a special place, but special not just in its value to 2nd geners, but also to others. in fact, the active participation of DBDs at SM has only made most discussions better. i cannot imagine how boring this place would be if each commenter tried to fit in and understand every other commenter. sure, some could be more civil. but for the most part, the commenters here have posted in such a way that is not only amusing, but also thought-provoking, regardless of whether anybody or everybody agrees.
vanaprastha ashram is also Indian culture ..
its all about the individual. Another 'great' aspect of out culture, it has all the options in the world.
I would frame her for dumping the other lady.
Sad to hear the news.. Old men/women with no means to support themselves suffer a great deal. I think it is the society's job to educate the folks who ill treat the elders that they would end up in a similar situation a few decades later..
I just do not understand how many people in this day and age can justify themselves when putting their parents in the old folks homes. In the UK it has become such a norm that people do not even think twice before they do. Me and my siblings were always taught to respect our elders and things but we always have a joke also that if they get a little annoying in their old age we would put them away, but what is the reality of this concept. I can see how it may seem like if they are in the homes then they will have a better life with people working for you, but in this day and age why cannot you do what needs to be done. I think about my parents and my only living grand parent who is 93 and it is only in recent years where there health has started too degenerate to what would be seen as weakenness and being quite insane but noway is that trueit is so far off infact she can still go to the bathroom and use other household appliences, I have had to change a few appliences in the house so that the peeps would be able to use it with comfort. She can even make all the paan which she wants @ times.
I sometimes think that for some people the concept off going into one of this homes is part of your life cycle- you were born in a hospital and you die in a sort of shit hole also. Why does this stuff happen!!!
No self-respecting individual expects unbiased news from blog sites. If they do, they deserve what they get.
Please don't patronize me, Karthik.
I came here, not to represent any one corner of india, but to understand 2nd gen as I am raising 2nd gen myself. That is the only way I can justify the amount of time I spent on this site.
When an event that took place in India is highlighted, and people are invited to discuss it, one cannot expect Indians or India-born/raised people to stay silent. One cannot expect to have one's cake and eat it too. It would be like walking into Iraq with Ahmad Chalabi for guide and expecting nothing but a Sunday school picnic and being surprised by the reaction. (Note that A N N A did not expect DBDs to be silent).
The internet will never be a 'safe' place, but that does not mean young Americans shouldn't gather at one site and try to 'consume' other 'cultures', near and far. The young owe it to themselves to understand that every one has a right to give their 'insights' and maybe even look like an idiot at times but that they have the right to ignore or heckle them or even 'put them down'.
And rude. It stood out from other voices that did indeed elicit ample amounts of sympathy out of me.
Now that everyone has hopefully said what they needed to, please, let's get back on topic-- it is an important one, which some of you really appreciated discussing, judging from the comments.
Ok, I will contribute something to the topic: 'Nectar in a Sieve' by Kamala Markandaya is a poignant novel that highlights all the conflicting ways in which a dirt-poor, rural Southern family gets pulled, and how this affects the parents as they age and are left alone by life's forces. It was published in 1954, I think, but I don't think much has changed for the peasants in the rural South. It tears your heart.
Rohinton Mistry's novel--which one is it, now, 'Family Matters'?, I think--is yet another well-written book about caring for the bed-ridden grandfather by a middle-class Parsi family in a cramped apartment in Bombay. Again, wonderful, insightful writing.
Thank you for sharing this. I had a lump in my throat reading it. My mother is so ill and I cannot tell you how much unsolicited "you should come here and take care of her" advice I have received from people. While it sounds incredibly noble I have lived and made a life for me here for 22 years. My mother by choice has always lived anywhere but here and the daily doses of guilt sometimes feel like will kill me. Nothing is worse than being reminded on a daily basis that you are a terrible daughter no matter what choices your parents made.
I have to deal with this situation with my father, who I don't have a relationship with and then a stepmother who I have even a less relationship with. She chose not to have children. Will I simply forget about her after my father is gone and be heartless and at peace? Somehow I doubt.
I'll be damned if someone shoves Indian culture down my throat in light of my situation. Come pay my mortgage and walk a mile in my shoes and I might humor you.
I always walk a mile in someones shoes before insulting them. that way, im a mile away and have their shoes.
Hang in there, JOAT. If it's any comfort, there are others among you here in similar situations and with seemingly imperfect decisions and similar guilt...
JOAT, do the people sending u on guilt trips matter to you? I used to care when my aunts used to throw "culture" in my face to criticize me. then i realized i dont care. seems simple, but it took me a long time to get to that conclusion. do these people actually matter?
To Coach Diesel and JOAT (although levels, nature and reasons for conflict with parent may not be the same):
The best damn self-help book that really helped me:
Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life (Paperback)
by Susan Forward
It released me; freed me of the 'torture' and 'hatred' I unfairly directed towards myself for 38 years. I am finally, to a good degree, free to lead my own life without unnecessary guilt burdening me, and free to focus on my future.
OMG Malathi you are the 3rd person to recommend this book to me. I'm definitely going out and getting it. Now if only someone would recommend a book on how to survive wedding planning from half a globe away life would be super ;-)
guilt is an interesting aspect of the caretaking discussion....
i've noticed that my grandparents like to use guilt and power trips to control their children and get what they want. not that this means ALL families are like that, but we should all admit that being in control and having things that way we want is serious attractive-- and, at least in my case, why i've chosen to live 1/2 a country away from my parents. they are loving and great, but they want things their way, as do their parents.
if its the younger generation's responsibility to take care of their elders, then there's a corrolarry responsibility in the elder generation: to allow oneself to be taken care of. this means that those elders should realize when they are no longer in charge of the home and pass responsibility/decision-making on to their children. seems like (to me, at least) this doesn't happen often or easily... its a matter of wrestling control-- and people on both sides being unhappy with the arrangement.
Sorry, but I can recommend another book 'One Perfect Day: The Selling of the American Wedding' by Rebecca Mead.
But on the other hand, it might make you feel worse as she points out to you in how many ways you are willingly part of a social phenomenon, so maybe you shouldn't read it :)
I haven't actually read the book but I read a review and I am intrigued.
I serve as an ombudsman and entertain residents hundreds of hours a year in homes. It is appalling that few visit. These residents are PEOPLE for goodness sake, have stories to tell and lessons for us to learn. Keep writing.
Anthony Cirillo, FACHE, ABC
anthonyssong.com
Asha's Dad knows about the same amount of words in Telugu as Asha does - Dad, Granddad, Grandma, Mom, and Stomach, all of which he probably cannot pronounce or spell correctly.
My mother-in-law assures me that they are correct and since she is perfect in every way I can only assume that she is correct. :)
Maitri was our sole southern gangsta for soooo long
Yeah, The Original sole southern Gangsta! Keepin' it ol' (2004) skool.
Speaking of the south (of the United States), people here are generally a lot more respectful of elders, if by "respectful" one means rarely addressing them by their first names (always calling them Mr., Ms. or Mrs. So & So), getting up when an aging person walks in the room, offering them seats, shaking their hands and paying respects, etc. Old matriarchs, and some patriarchs, are hugely venerated down here, as they are the keepers of the clan and culture, so to speak.
This is why when sweeping generalizations are made about the west or east, I cringe, knowing lots of people here respect their elders as much as their Indian counterparts. And, just like in India, it's often out of a sense of obligation and propriety, and not necessarily love, that parents are "kept" at home (you know: "What will so-and-so think if we put our parents in a nursing home?")
My Wisconsin boy of a husband doesn't understand that I'd never send me parents off to such housing and says, "You say that now, but just you wait until the time comes." Many of us say we'd never put our parents in a nursing home, but how many have said that and did just the opposite? The sad thing is that that's often what the parent in question wants. My mom's too high-maintenance for a nursing home and will insist on living with one of her kids, so I know my future has a mother-in-law cottage in it. And I mean COTTAGE -- detached, on the other end of the 40 acres, out of earshot and all.
Also, ANNA, I hear you on "if I had this place back in the 90s." It's nice not to be the only one who feels left out or sp