I believe some of their US temples are considered quite noteworthy too. Here's some pics from the Chicago one, and I believe it or one of the others was written about glowingly in an architectural magazine.

had this mandir been constructed somewhere in this great nation...

There's one in his backyard. Maybe smaller than the Candian mandir, but still quite impressive.

Yes, Shodan-san...but do you think he would've gone to its grand opening? Is that something you can see an Amreekan President doing? :)

Note to self

When you get 40 million dollars, make your house out of limestone and marble and have it built by skinny Indians armed with a chisel.

Inspiration behind Swaminarayan temples.

are those ice sculptures??? and are they wearing hats cuz it is so cold?

soooo pretty! can't wait to go see it in person!

The only Swaminarayan Mandir I've been to was in Flushing, NY. There were separate sections (and entrances) for men (in front of the main altar with Swamiji) and for women (they had a diagonal view of the main altar and a separate altar to themselves in the back).

Are they all like that?

The architecture is so sculpturally detailed. Beautiful.

Vivek,

Yes, men and women always sit separately, at all temple functions.

Wow...they're at it again. The largest Swaminarayan mandir I went to was in New Dehli. Made me wonder about two things...one, how many people of that faith were there really in Dehli?? and why did it remind me of Disneyland?? The majority of the people at the Dehli mandir seemed to be of other faiths and were at the mandir as more of a tourist attraction than a house of worship...but maybe that was the aim afterall??

I should add it was beautiful...but didn't really feel like a spiritual place....

Curly asked:

Wow...they're at it again. The largest Swaminarayan mandir I went to was in New Dehli. Made me wonder about two things...one, how many people of that faith were there really in Dehli??

According to Statistics Canada, there are 191,305 Hindus in Toronto.[link]

I agree with curly ... those BAPS people are a bit much. I visited the mandir in Delhi, and it was like Disneyland. I saw nobody actually doing any praying there - it was just one big tourist attraction. More recently, I got a flyer from the BAPS folks asking for donations. The form had three options for how much money I wanted to donate, with the smallest amount being $1000. If I have $1000 to donate, I'm certainly not going to give it to someone who is creating BAPS-land.

AT: I received the same flyer. I've had the pleasure (if you can call it this) of going to some events at the BAPS mandirs. After the lecture pieces (which are interesting at times....), almost always is a call for more $$$. My favorite is the number of fundraising efforts they've had for the new mandir threy're trying to build in So Cal...they must have raised millions, yet the fundraising is still in full swing! They've had events like "hey seniors...sign up for life insurance...you don't have to pay any premiums or anything...just when you die, the money goes to BAPS"...sounded fishy to me, but oh well. Another way to raise a buck.
I will give them props for a few things though...they do have cultural programs for the young and old as well as many health fairs. This is one nice thing, however, from my cousin who attended the programs/classes, they kinda have exclusively hang out with their peeps...oh and another great thing about them, the FOOD! The snacks sold at BAPS are the BEST! If you haven't tried them, you should definitely do so! :)

I agree with curly ... those BAPS people are a bit much. I visited the mandir in Delhi, and it was like Disneyland. I saw nobody actually doing any praying there - it was just one big tourist attraction. More recently, I got a flyer from the BAPS folks asking for donations. The form had three options for how much money I wanted to donate, with the smallest amount being $1000. If I have $1000 to donate, I'm certainly not going to give it to someone who is creating BAPS-land.

Okay-- this is fascinating to me, because when I realized that this mandir was a BAPS project, I kind of did a double-take, because a loooong time ago, I heard someone say unkind things about BAPS, and since I have no exposure to the movement (?) I haven't really encountered anything beyond that. I'm one of your Disney-tourists; I'm stunned by how beautiful it is. :) I don't know if I'd actually GO (never been to a mandir), but I do admire what they've done, if only on an artistic/architectural basis. If y'all want to enlighten me on what your take on BAPS is, and you're willing to be patient AND civil, feel free. :)

Ah, you already started. Awesome. :D

It always boggles the mind when I see so much money being spent on places of worship. I mean if there was a god, would he not be happier if the $40 million was was used for something else to help your fellow man?
Nevertheless gorgeous temple.

Ok one last comment (and then I really must get back to work)....I have MANY family members that are Swaminarayan (so this is where my exposure/comments come from)....have nothing against them. I find the religion very interesting.
One other thing (and maybe this is just with the folks in my family...but would love to hear if others have this)...so when Swamiji calls his devotees to some big event, the hardcore family members (there is one in each family) all jump on a plane and go. They've gone to India, Ohio, etc. The most interesting thing is not that they go, but that they don't really follow all the tenets of the religion, yet are willing to go devote the time/energy for this to make it seem like they're a very true/good believer. (Some of the rules they break...eat onions and garlic...drink or shoking..even eat MEAT!)

Ok one last comment (and then I really must get back to work)....

Work?! Shirk your work! That's what the Mutiny is all about. ;)

No, really, thanks for all the insight. Glad you wasted time on this thread. :)

After the day I've had...this was a GREAT distraction and helped me unwind! Thanks for posting it...I could go on and on on this topic :P

Do sample the awesome guju snacks, pickles etc. at Shayona. Avoid frozen bhaajis though. Yes, we remain resolutely earthly.

Any true blue BAPers out there want to confirm this:

I believe that BAPS folks do a lot of social work in Gujarat? I heard they have a residential college campus ( engineering ?) in a rural area which is staffed with phoren returned professors who moved back to India to do good works in the middle of nowhere and provide rural youth with the opportunity for 'A' class education.Sorry I do not have any confirmatory links.

The BAPS mandir in Delhi ( which I believe was blogged about on Sepia Mutiny a while back) is quite mind boggling in terms of sheer audacity of scale . For those who have visited other mandirs its a little disconcerting to see that the tallest statue is of the Swami, taller than the big 3 - Shiva ,Vishnu ,Krishna!!

Anna,

I was a visitor at an event they ran last year, and some of what I remember learning that day is that for some of the big temples (like the one you wrote about) the stonemasons were originally (from Rajasthan?) a population whose craft was almost dying out (no sustainable work in it, the sons were not carrying it on, etc), and the BAPS people hired them to do the work in the US (maybe at the UK temple too?), and it led to a revival of that type of stone work, and indeed, to the sons also learning the craft.

The BAPS people don't seek to get any of their non-desi neighbors to convert, and will even gently try to dissuade the more 'interested' (or clingy) of that population to look to their own original faith for whatever answers they're seeking. They are, in the main, Gujurati, and their BAPS Care charitable arm was, I believe, generally regarded as the leader when it came to caring for people (short- and long-term) after the earthquake. The Toronto temple's opening was timed to coincide with the visit of their Pramukh Swami Maharaj's tour of North America (or maybe it was the other way round....). I'm sure lots of other folks will chime in with other info, but I would just add that the people I met and interacted with that day couldn't have been nicer, with the same pleasantness and easygoing manner that hard-bitten NYers like myself tend to identify with people we meet when traveling in the midwest or south. Not smarmy, just lacking that grit or edge that you find on the streets of midtown or the subway during rush-hour.

Their temples ARE stunning, no doubt. But I had a bad experience at the one in London. I went there to see the temple and the famous 'Hinduism' exhibition in the middle of winter, by myself. The temple closed at 8:00pm and at about 7:40pm, I was escorted to the gate because, 'time for darshan is over'. I explained that I understood and would appreciate if someone told me where the nearest Tube Station was. Nothing doing..I was shown the bus station outside their compound and was told to ask there. Not very saint-like..me thinks.

I know distant relatives whose kids went to 'Swaminarayan' Academys around the world who ended up joining as 'Sants' or monks. Their folks are not too happy..thats for sure. One of my cousins was taken out of their school when his mother began to wonder why they never let him meet his family. It was always one excuse after another..'he's in camp; they are out for a picnic; there are mock exams that they are studying for' etc etc.

That being said, they are an interesting lot and sure have ways of making spectacular buildings to celebrate their faith.

Not a BAPS fan myself for philosophical reasons (like Swamis won't look at a woman, segregation in the temples of women/men), but they have the marketing and building temples thing down pretty hardcore. In some ways, it reminds me of an Hindu version of Mormons. Very organized, pro-active in getting more members, and manage to get loads of money from devotees, and they manage their own money very well, too.

I remember reading about the BAPS Akshardham Temple in NYTimes last year, where they made a reference to it being like an amusement park for the religious tourists.

Nothing wrong with building beautiful mandirs, BAPS also has good social service outreach, but as a hindu I find their flavor of religion uncongenial. I remember my surprise when an american friend mentioned to me that he had gone to a temple and a wedding where men and women were segregated! It turned out this was a BAPS community. I had never heard of such a thing before nor had i ever seen such a thing myself.

The excessive veneration of the pramukh-ji also doesn't work for me, this is not my understanding of a modern hindu guru (tr: teacher).

But good luck to them !

GujuDude: Agree with you on the women/men segregation issue.

Here's what I don't understand (and maybe a BAPS person can enlighten us all??)...so Swamiji cannot look at any women at the mandir (I had the misfortunate of being the in the parking lot of the mandir and didn't realize that a Sant was coming my way (back was turned)...I was told to turn around so that the Sant wouldn't see me). The part I don't understand is...when they travel? do they keep their eyes closed? for example, if they're being driven around town...do they look down at all times becasue women are all around in other cars? when they're at the airport, what do they do? I presume they still have to go through security, etc....so is it only Indian women (more specifically those at the mandir) they can't look at???
I can see I'm not going to get any work done and should call it a day!

My only exposure (other than what my Gujarati friends have told me) to Swaminarayan was posing behind the "No Women Beyond This Point" sign at the SN temple in Tithal, Gujarat. It killed pretty much any sympathy I might have for this modern movement that segregates against women and raises millions with which to do it. The temple was very uh, grand, but considering BAPS would like to be known for its "relief work", you have to wonder what the justification for $40 million temples is, exactly.

Anna, thanks for blogging this, and that collage you made is very pretty too.

Filmiholic, very impressive how much you know about these folks. I grew up in India, and don't remember ever hearing anything about them while I was there, and even now, I know next to nothing about them!

But this thread is well on its way to fixing that.

As giddy as such architectural perfection makes me, my inner %$#@ is wondering if Dubya would have made like Harper, had this mandir been constructed somewhere in this great nation

re BAPS - i don't really know much about them, so this part of the discussion is very interesting. though, i've been at my parents' house for a few weeks and the amounts of BAPS mail is ridiculous. and my parents are definitely not followers.

BAPS is an offshoot of the original Swaminarayan folks.

Wikipedia to the rescue again.

The whole not seeing a woman's face thing is kinda weird. Yea, when they travel if they see a woman's face, apparently they're supposed to do prayer, fast, a bath to 'cleanse' themselves. The original swaminarayan groups aren't as hardcore, but they've been surpassed by BAPS in popularity, marketing, and cash flow.

Yippeee!

BAPS or no BAPS, this news made my indo-canuck entrails buzz (in a good way). Noone brought up the BAPSishness of it all, everyone focussed on the Indo-Canuckishness of it. The temple and the museum are apparently open to all, regardless of gender or faith.

Re: Harper. I wouldn't get all warm and fuzzy about him yet. He is selective about the groups he pays attention to, and has ignored aboriginals and gays (not to mention environmental groups). He's also gotten us deeply tangled up in Afghanistan. Many people here view him as Dubya Lite.

I know a few BAPS types. Our local chappati and dhokla caterer is a member of BAPS. The kindly old lady always gives me something extra. Anna, try their food sometime. It's gorgeous! But this segregation part sounds uncomfortable.

Anna,

Dubya would have made like Harper, had this mandir been constructed somewhere in this great nation…

I think Dubya was the first president to have a Diwali ceremony in the White House. It's not a temple, but it shows that he's a bit openminded.

dubya issued some message to the sikh community on Guru Nanak's birthday in 2003 too

There is one in Houston, one about to open in Atlanta and one in construction in LA

i wonder if the money could have been better spent elsewhere? ....maybe build a 10 mil mandhir and 30 mil to some other cause.. i woner

According to Statistics Canada, there are 191,305 Hindus in Toronto.[link]

Though of course, this is not an indication of the number of BAPS folks in Toronto. A very significant chunk, if not the overwhelming majority, of 'Hindus' in the Toronto area are Tamils from Sri Lanka. Some estimates take their number in the Greater Toronto Area to be as large as 200K. Their language and practice of Hinduism is quite different from the BAPS' folks. The practice of sex segregation in the particular form the BAPS seem to practice it is not something I remember from any Hindu temple I've ever visited, and, AFAIK, is not practiced in the Sri Lankan Hindu temples.

Another question I have is why the BAPS would want Harper & co to come to the opening of their temple - it's a photo opp for the politicians - but what's in it for a (non-proselytizing) cult that the BAPS seem to be? What would the publicity do for them, since they do not seek converts?

Chachaji,

As to the "why invite him?" question, I got the sense from the people I met that they are very concerned about being accepted (or at least tolerated) by the neighborhoods they have their mandirs in, because, as you might guess, some people get up in arms when they learn of the planned temple, with, at the bare minimum, mentions of traffice concerns etc.

I'm guessing that the Toronto example is something like that, but on a much bigger scale of course...

And the only thing I ever knew about them before the event I was at last year was what I heard from (desi) friends which was always "They have lots of money." :-)

so i'm guessing being in kanada this place has central heating?

This cult seems to build architecturally stunning temples. The one in London (in the area called Neasden) is just breath-taking. Based on the pictures of the Toronto temple, the London one is very similar. There also much of it was done in India and then painstakingly assembled in Britain. The intricacy and attention to fine detail were just indescribable. It was nice to see that the craftsmanship and skills necessary to build such beautiful structures still exist in India. I appreciated the temple for its architectural merits, and for the fact that desis in the UK were building things on such a lavish scale that tourists of all cultural backgrounds were flocking to see. The temple dominates the whole area and IIRC you can see it from a long way off. As for the cult itself, it seems extremely focused on its swami(s), more so than (as far as I could tell) any traditional Hindu stuff. As Runa pointed out above (although in reference to the Delhi temples built by the same folks), "For those who have visited other mandirs its a little disconcerting to see that the tallest statue is of the Swami, taller than the big 3 - Shiva ,Vishnu ,Krishna!!" And as Msichana pointed out, it's not easily accessible by public transport (which is not a common thing in the UK).

Wow...they're at it again. The largest Swaminarayan mandir I went to was in New Dehli. Made me wonder about two things...one, how many people of that faith were there really in Dehli??

According to Statistics Canada, there are 191,305 Hindus in Toronto.[link]

Sorry to nitpick, ANNA, but I don't think that's the best answer to the question? Hinduism multifaceted no one belief system blah blah blah ...

I'm not up on BAPS (and what I've read here makes me a bit wary of them)--but, the claim that
there's something illicit about spending $40M on a temple strikes me as naive. It is aesthetically
beautiful, which I think is a value probably shared by many of the *donors* to the project--it's not
as if $40M for "relief for the poor" is just going to magically spring out of the air from these donors
in the absence of the temple-building project. In other words, from the donors' perspective, the temple
and the poor-relief aren't perfect substitutes. So, to blame BAPS for spending on the temple rather than
the poor is naive. And at least some serious cash is going to traditional stone-carvers in India.

Sorry to nitpick, ANNA, but I don't think that's the best answer to the question? Hinduism multifaceted no one belief system blah blah blah ...

That answer contains the statistic provided by the article this post was based on; I made no commentary beyond that, I was just trying to help. Would you be willing to point me towards a better answer?

::

I never claimed to know much about Hinduism, I just try and be respectful of everyone's traditions while creating a "safe" space for people to ask questions, raise issues, etc. I'm always eager to learn more, if someone has a link or a resource which they are constructive enough send me.

every time i read the acronym BAPS i think of the movie B*A*P*S.

Gujudude is right. BAPS is the offshoot of the original Swaminarayan Sampradaay. The direct sixth decendant of Swami Sahjanand - founder of Swaminarayan sect - is my High chum. He came to my son's wedding reception in Ahmedabad last January. His name is Tejendraprasaad Pandeji. When he came into the reception hall with his entourage, all women including the bride was escorted off the stage - for a while. At his home though with his wife and my wife among other close friends and his son, grandson, etc... we are just friends. All I can say about Pramukh Swami of BAPS is that he is the inspiration behind building some monumental swaminarayan temples throughout the world. We will be in Toronto in second week of August, and would certainly visit this one.

I live five minutes away from this temple. It's stunning.

the one in neasdon have the best veggie burgers and jacket photatos!! :)

Their language and practice of Hinduism is quite different from the BAPS' folks. The practice of sex segregation in the particular form the BAPS seem to practice it is not something I remember from any Hindu temple I've ever visited, and, AFAIK, is not practiced in the Sri Lankan Hindu temples.

yes, i was also surprised that this wasn't spearheaded by the local SL Tamil population.

As for the cult itself, it seems extremely focused on its swami(s), more so than (as far as I could tell) any traditional Hindu stuff.

Cult? Some of the practices may indeed seem bizarre and off-putting but that hardly qualifies an organization as a cult. As someone who grew up in a community organized around an all-faiths and yogic focus, I have been on the receiving end of the cult barb more than once--it's a specious, cowardly and intellectually lazy charge, generally leveled by people totally unaware of what really constitutes cultish practices.

And a Swami isn't "traditional Hindu stuff"?????!!!!!! I am no fan of self-appointed god-men in general, but the concept of guru and sishya is quite old and interwoven throughout the histories of many faith traditions lumped under the Hindu umbrella.

Sigh! If only so much of this money was instead given to social causes instead of putting it into pompous grandiosity - not just BAPS, even other temples in the US. I mean if you are a true believer, would your belief get hurt if you prayed in a temple which looks a little less of a palace, especially if that trade off helps someone get a decent meal or get an education. I wonder how much of this is derived from the vanity of the devotees. The psychology behind this is understandable but still frustrating.

I am concerned that the terrorists might use the temple as a place to hide among the larger non-terrorist population and surreptitiously use the temple premises to launch mass scale attacks against Canada/West. Once Canada copies the US inspired John Doe legislation, it will make it very difficult for vigilante Canadian patriots to identify the terrorists from the non-terrorists in this temple.

it will make it very difficult for vigilante Canadian patriots to identify the terrorists from the non-terrorists in this temple.

Lol. Reminds me of Little Mosque on the Prairie.

GujuDude hit it right on the head.

Their monks never look at women and even when they travel, arrangements are made so that only male security officers and cabin crew etc attend to them. If they do happen to see women, then they are required to fast for a day or so. From what I have seen, they travel in cars that have window drapes or they just look at their laps.

What makes me wonder is that these same monks worship female deities such as Radha and Sita..isn't that against their beliefs?

I happened to meet a BAPS woman when I was in college whose family never took a decision without consulting with the Guru. That struck me as weird. I mean, how can someone who has renounced the world be able to guide you through career moves etc?

What is BAPS?

B*A*P*S

What is BAPS?

Bochasanwasi Shri Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha

The Pittsburgh temple has some catching up to do. It is slowly getting eclipsed by a bunch of temples all over the continent. Being from Pittsburgh originally, I would hate for it to be just another temple.

Razib,

The temple has an electrically heated floor.

It is annoying to hear this temple referred to dismissively as built by a 'cult'. There has been nothing remotely cultish about the behaviour and approach of the community in TO which built it.

As for the cult itself, it seems extremely focused on its swami(s), more so than (as far as I could tell) any traditional Hindu stuff.

Cult? Some of the practices may indeed seem bizarre and off-putting but that hardly qualifies an organization as a cult. As someone who grew up in a community organized around an all-faiths and yogic focus, I have been on the receiving end of the cult barb more than once--it's a specious, cowardly and intellectually lazy charge, generally leveled by people totally unaware of what really constitutes cultish practices.

Muralimannered, the BAPS seems to meet all the characteristics of cults, and both in the everyday and the dictionary usage. The wiki article on cults is really good, do check it out. 'Cult' has a pejorative sense, and it can be lazily applied, but that doesn't mean the 'normal' sense can't be applied to BAPS. Nobody is making the claim (yet) that the BAPS meets the psychological definition of cult. They seem to be non-proselytizing, so that aspect can be emphasized by calling them a non-proselytizing cult, but let's not be too PC about calling them a cult when they meet the everyday accepted meaning so obviously.

Sigh! If only so much of this money was instead given to social causes instead of putting it into pompous grandiosity - not just BAPS, even other temples in the US. I mean if you are a true believer, would your belief get hurt if you prayed in a temple which looks a little less of a palace, especially if that trade off helps someone get a decent meal or get an education. I wonder how much of this is derived from the vanity of the devotees. The psychology behind this is understandable but still frustrating.

If you are a believer in this particular religion, then your objection makes sense. Judging from what's written above, you are not. So why should you object to how others spend their money? Is it for you to tell others - presumably believers - what type of structure is appropriate for celebrating their faith? And in the whole arena of ways in which people "waste money," is building a temple any worse? For that matter, how do you know that the people building the temple are not also helping others get a decent meal or education?

I have seen quite a few people of "Hindu origin but not believers" come up with this curious objection again and again. I don't see the point. If you want to help people get a decent meal or education, then do it. If others want to spend their money building a temple to their faith or for that matter vanity, then that's their call.

Just out of curiosity - given how ready you seem to be to criticize others for their failings - how many people have you helped get a decent meal or an education? It's my observation that those who make such objections very rarely are in the forefront of social service themselves. Most times, such expressions just seem to be a way of establishing one's "moral superiority."

suresh.

Chachaji,

That's like saying that the word 'negro' should still be applied to a black person. 'Cult' has pejorative connotations in its popular usage, so why use it?

Suresh in #62 - your whole argument is that if someone is not a believer, he has no right to say that ostentatiousness in religious practices is not an issue, I am not so sure is right. While I wont comment on other religions since I don't know as much, in my own beliefs and studies of Hinduism, I have not come across instances where ostentatiousness has any bearing on the spiritual aspects. At least in Vedanta which I know a little bit as opposed to other forms, even idols are just 'tools' (for lack of a better word) for us as humans to focus on higher things and goals(if you may notice, I resist from using the term higher beings). Thus again I repeat, one does not need a palace to be a practicing Hindu - if anything it's the opposite. If you have some other reasoning like socio-cultural importance of temples and why grandeur is neccessary for that, please say as much but don't say that one has no right unless one has beliefs.

As for your second point about saying something without doing in terms of the social front, again it's an absurd argument since it does not make one less worthy of criticizing if one has a valid point. Also, while I am with you about people saying without doing, I would resist from making generalizations for the entire spectrum. My observations have been based on personal experiences where people have been less ready to part with funds for pure social causes and even brand such form of social work as communist and despicable since it supposedly lacks spirituality. But if one approaches them under a religious umbrella, they are more than happy to donate for something like a temple.

Also, I am not saying it's wrong for them to spend their money the way they want (afetr all it's theirs), just that I wish it was different and I try to understand what drives them to be a certain way.

I went to the Swaminarayan Temple in Gandhinagar, Gujarat and left with a foul taste in my mouth. The place was for all intents and purposes--an amusement park. They had a "It's a Small World"-type exhibit with motor operated dolls which told the story of Swaminarayans rise to fame, and the museum housed items such as the nail clippings of the Swami and other such "relics".

The entire grounds were absolutely pristine and gorgeous, but if you take one step outside of the temple grounds you're met with poverty of the lowest kind. I simply couldn't reconcile myself with the over-the-top grandeur of the temple grounds, and the poverty I saw right outside it's doors.

I'm currently dating someone who's Swaminarayan and it makes me a bit nervous. He said he grew up being very involved in the movement, but slowly pushed away as a result of politics and drama (namely their push for a lot of money). He said he'd like to get back into it, but is weary.

I should also add that I went to a smaller Swaminarayan temple in Valsad, Gujarat and was turned off by the fact that the women had to stand behind a demarcated line so the priests can not see them. Does anyone know why this is? I hear it's so they won't be distracted, but wtf?

The alleged "amusement park" angle of all of this is the most fascinating; the segregation/not looking at women stuff...kinda depressing. My Mom is Jacobite and they sit on opposite sides of the church, but I don't know about any separating of men and women beyond that.

Then again, don't really Orthodox Jews do something like this-- maybe I'm thinking of the Hasidim? Where's the Jewish mutineer when you need him, damnit. ;)

(p.s. a midway thanks to all, for such a respectful discussion)

It is annoying to hear this temple referred to dismissively as built by a 'cult'. There has been nothing remotely cultish about the behaviour and approach of the community in TO which built it.

DQ, I think I meant to say 'sect' and wrote 'cult' by mistake. Apologies to anyone offended. And apologies in advance to anyone who doesn't like the word 'sect'. Maybe a neutral word like 'group' or 'organisation' would be best here.

Koi bhat nehi, amitabh-y...not that I spelled that right. :D

No eggshell walking, ya heard? (that and I want to remind you that you are really cherished and respected here, so I would hope there's no need for the disclaimers, etc)

[i]Koi bhat nehi[/i]

Sista, do you say that the way you wrote it? If so, we have to have a recoding of Anna speaking hindi uploaded somewhere. I promise I would laugh ;-)

Martha Nussbaum in the excerpt Amardeep linked to a while ago, seemed to hold up the Swaminarayan sect as the vanguard of the hindu right in Gujarat.

In the United States, by some estimates fully 40 percent of Indian-Americans hail from Gujarat, where a large proportion belong to the Swaminarayan sect of Hinduism, distinctive for its emphasis on uncritical obedience to the utterances of the current leader of the sect, whose title is Pramukh Swami Maharaj. On a visit to the elaborate multimillion-dollar Swaminarayan temple in Bartlett, Ill., I was given a tour by a young man recently arrived from Gujarat, who delighted in telling me the simplistic Hindu-right story of India's history, and who emphatically told me that whenever Pramukh Swami speaks, one is to regard it as the direct voice of God and obey without question.

Does anyone here know if they are really that hardcore? Esp about their views on other religions, etc? Also about their involvement (IF any), and views, on the Gujarat riots? I remember after the terrorist attack on their Akshardham temple in Gujarat, their leaders urged calm, and there was no retaliatory violence by their members.

If so, we have to have a recoding of Anna speaking hindi uploaded somewhere. I promise I would laugh ;-)

My darling, wait 'til you hear me mangle Hum Aap Kain Houn or whatever that-mega movie was...my friends used to have me do it daily, so they could marvel at my sputtering AND the fact that I never destroyed it the same way twice! There's a lot of room for mangling in that title. :D

ANNA wrote:

the segregation/not looking at women stuff...kinda depressing.

In that case, enjoy these!

# Chandu ki chacha ne chandu ki chachi ko chandni chonk me chandi ke chamach se chatni chatai.

Samajh samajh ke samajh ko samjho
samajh samajhna bhi ek samajh he
samajh samajh ke jo na samjhe
meri samajh me woh na samajh he

Khadak Singh ke khadakane se khadakati hain khidkiyan, khidkiyon ke khadakane se khadakata hai Khadak Singh.

that and I want to remind you that you are really cherished and respected here, so I would hope there's no need for the disclaimers, etc)

Thank you so much ANNA, that means a lot. Much appreciated.

Amitabh, no offence taken. These guys had a lovely way of presenting the temple - they called the temple a gift back to the nation. Then the white newscaster said 'what an auspicious day'. It was all very Canadian, and being sentimental, I got a bit teary-eyed about it.

perhaps the only luminary, in India who rose against the shocking plight of women in society."

I dig this dude.

These guys had a lovely way of presenting the temple - they called the temple a gift back to the nation. Then the white newscaster said 'what an auspicious day'. It was all very Canadian

That is really touching-- and I heart the use of "auspicious". :) If that is "all very Canadian", then Canada is a wonderful place, indeed. I'd be snuffling along right next to you.

A quick back step...teh delhi project of BAPS is Akshardham, a MONUMENT . IT is NOT a TEMPLE, thus it does not feel like one.
BAPS is very well recognized here in US, i dunno abt canada...not a cult, but a major religious faith that serves humanity at all levels

The explanation of segregation by gender I received was due to the fact that men, if they see women, might feel desire, or vice versa. At least at a temple, if they are segregated, they can focus on god. I've witnessed this at the ISKCON temples but it's not meant to be oppressive. My mom and sister have never complained and it's not strictly enforced but it's there in spirit. Same reason I could see why the monks are not allowed to see women, they should not feel any desire for women and to prevent any risks, they try to keep them away from women. It's kind of like the explanation I heard for why the ISKCON temple in Miami Beach was closed. The brahamachari's couldn't stop looking at the women and couldn't keep sanyas.

Weeeell, Anna, I'll amend that to 'it was all very as most Canadians want it to be'. One of our Ontario public servants recently called a black job applicant a 'ghetto dude' in an email to co-workers...

$40 million can provide food and shelter for 80000 children (source : www.universalgiving.org ) in India.
$40 million can provide dinner for 30 days for 40000 families of four.
what do you get for $40 million from any religion : nothing,zero, shunya,

The brahamachari's couldn't stop looking at the women and couldn't keep sanyas.

My family's guru shocked his brother monks, upon their visit to America, by physically embracing all of the people that he met(devotees and strangers alike)--not just men. BAPS appears to be trapped in that antediluvian mindset, but perhaps this is their way of avoiding the inevitable swami-sex scandal that seems to pop up in other new religious movements (as I refuse to label BAPS a cult)

but let's not be too PC about calling them a cult when they meet the everyday accepted meaning so obviously.

Chachaji,

not sure how much time, if any, that you've spent in the States but the popular conception of a cult here is definitely not the incredibly broad merriam-webster definition. Even when you consider that, there's not much about BAPS that you couldn't find in an equivalent religious movement with a longer history in India. They do, however, seem to have collected much of the more illiberal practices

When I refuse to use the word cult I am referring popular conceptions of a religious cult that do not serve to advance the discussion in any way; this pejorative conception usually takes three forms: hippie-based (Jim Jones), separatist (Branch Davidian), and Eastern Religion-based (ISKON, Osho, TM, etc).

what do you get for $40 million from any religion : nothing,zero, shunya

Toronto got a beautiful building, and considering how architecturally dire Toronto is, that ain't nothing.

I'm from Vancouver, BC, Canada, and not East-Indian, but Chinese. I appreciate this temple for its beauty, religious and cultural significance. It makes me proud to be a Canadian to have things like this happen in our country.

Ardy,

How does one go about deciding how much expenditure is "right" for constructing a temple? I think the answer to this has to be decided by the believers. As a non-believer, you have the right to find the amount that the believers have spent unnecessary or excessive, but I don't think you can criticize them for spending their money in the way they choose. And criticize is exactly what you are doing when you say that the people who built the temple could have spent their money in a better (to you) way - educating or feeding someone. If you think it right to criticize other people for spending their money building "ostentatious" temples, why stop there? As I said, there are a whole range of expenditures which are arguably unnecessary and could be sacrificed in favor of educating someone or feeding someone. So, where do we stop?

If, on the other hand, you are a believer, then I would be more sympathetic. Incidentally, criticism of what you call ostentatiousness in religion is not new. Check out the following vacana by Basavanna (translated by A. K. Ramanujan's in his "Speaking of Siva"):

The rich will make temples for Shiva What shall I, a poor man, do? My legs are pillars, The body the shrine, The head a cupola of gold. Listen, O lord of the meeting rivers, Things standing shall fall, But the moving ever shall stay.

For an explanation, check out A. K. Ramanujan's book.

As for my second point, well, if you criticize others for not meeting your moral standard, then you should be prepared to have them question whether you meet that standard.

Isn't the Swaminarayan sect a part of hinduism? I went to their temple in Delhi with my parents years ago. My parents are Hindu and they didn't seem to point out that it wasn't their flavor of hinduism. When I went to the temple in Houston with a friend, she pointed out that though she doesn't believe in Swaminrayan, she loves the temple (and the sweets). I was confused. I am not religious, so, to me, it all looks Hindu from the outside.

Can someone tell me how Swaminarayan is different from regular Hinduism (if there is any)?

Seeing those pics gave me goosebumps. Beautiful.

The explanation of segregation by gender I received was due to the fact that men, if they see women, might feel desire, or vice versa.

What if, Swamis/Sanyasis are distracted by seeing men ;-)

What if, Swamis/Sanyasis are distracted by seeing men ;-)

ve are not the gay here. thank you. come again.

Suresh in #89

Dude, 40 million dollars is crap loads of money by any standard. I don't think it needs quantifying to say it seems very excessive. But sure, a few numbers in #83 could help if you want. I see merits to temples and other religious centers (given the limitations of human beings) but I don't see merit to 24000 sculptures and so much money when put in perspective. Maybe just maybe it was ok when India had 25% of the world trade, not anymore when it is 118th in the world in terms of GDP per capita.

on the other hand, you are a believer, then I would be more sympathetic.

Relax my friend, no sympathies needed. Whether I am what is defined as a 'believer' in your view or not is not the crux of the issue IMHO. And is it really the belief that drives this building or the justification of one's vanity in having the 'most beautiful' or 'most elaborate' or something like that under the umbrella of spirituality.

then you should be prepared to have them question whether you meet that standard.

I think in your original post there was an inherent assumption based on your tone, it definitely did not seem without prejudice. And like I said, if the point is valid why care who makes it.

Maybe just maybe it was ok when India had 25% of the world trade, not anymore when it is 118th in the world in terms of GDP per capita.

Most of their donations are from American and Canadian hindus.

gulti girl said:

Isn't the Swaminarayan sect a part of hinduism? I went to their temple in Delhi with my parents years ago. My parents are Hindu and they didn't seem to point out that it wasn't their flavor of hinduism. When I went to the temple in Houston with a friend, she pointed out that though she doesn't believe in Swaminrayan, she loves the temple (and the sweets). I was confused. I am not religious, so, to me, it all looks Hindu from the outside.

Can someone tell me how Swaminarayan is different from regular Hinduism (if there is any)? Actually, there is no real difference, but they do tend to separate themselves as a part of a unique sect of Hinduism. I don't know the details, but I know growing up my parents would talk about a family and as an aside say, "They're Swaminarayan". I think a lot of Patel's tend to be members.

what do you get for $40 million from any religion : nothing,zero, shunya

Toronto got a beautiful building, and considering how architecturally dire Toronto is, that ain't nothing.

This whole logic that $40 million is a waste and should have been spent on charity, seems off to me. Why target buildings like this just because they happen to be visible symbols? Why are other relatively frivolous purchases not given the same scrutiny? How about the millions (maybe billions) people spend on popcorn at the movies? Wouldn't that be better if given to the poor? How about the millions/billions spent on greeting cards (just to pick something off the top of my head?) The point is, money is spent on so many different things in our economy, and transfers to charity could be made at so many points within the system...this temple does not stand out in that regard.

maybe you should ask those 40,000 people if they would rather get meals handed to them, or work that goes towards a temple.

maybe you should ask those 40,000 people if they would rather get meals handed to them, or work that goes towards a temple.

Maybe you should ask them if all the money people spent on popcorn at movies went to meals for them instead. Maybe you should ask them if all the money that goes into buying People Magazine (for example) should go to their meals instead. Why single out the temple?

Really now, do you people snipe and carp about opera houses and museums too? If not, why the fuss over a temple?

yes, i was also surprised that this wasn't spearheaded by the local SL Tamil population.

I wasn't once I heard the cost :) The tamil community here lacks the cohesion and collective wealth to put something like this together. There are a number of smaller sri lankan tamil hindu temples scattered across Toronto, though. A few are small and exceedingly beautiful (once you get inside) and others are crap. The biggest one is probably the one in Richmond Hill...it doesn't come close to this one in terms of grandeur or impressiveness but, on the flip side, it's somewhat remote and can be quite serene (except on holy days or whatever). I haven't visited this one yet, but it really does look beautiful.

I had no idea what BAPS was until this thread, so thanks for that. Also, as a non-religious hindu-by-birth brown, i think spending $40 mil on a temple is a bit silly and i question their motives.

I'd be snuffling along right next to you.

Anna, snuffle = sniffle + shuffle? :):(

Hope you feel better and your ankle heals soon!

BTW, 'snuffle busting' is archaic Aussie (slang) for the 'Pathetically Politically Correct'

Of course, nobody here is snuffle busting! :)

Really now, do you people snipe and carp about opera houses and museums too? If not, why the fuss over a temple?

When I'm in places like this temple, as odd as it may sound, I feel closer to the divine, because of the awe and the stunning gorgeousness of it all. Was St. Patrick's Cathedral a waste? When millions of people light a candle there and feel peace, no. That Cathedral is bang in the middle of Manhattan-- how much would it cost? Are these questions doing anything besides inspiring ire and defensiveness? Some people fast to become closer to their God, others do charity, and others still volunteer to build something magnificent like this structure, with their own hands-- I'm thankful for all of it.

Beauty blesses us all, BAPS or not.

Really now, do you people snipe and carp about opera houses and museums too? If not, why the fuss over a temple?

Many ask, "How can you mix spirituality and social service?" We ask, "How can you separate the two?" Those who wish to sincerely serve society must be spiritually pure and only those who are spiritually pure can sincerely serve society! Bochasanwasi Shri Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha (BAPS) is a socio-spiritual Hindu organization with its roots in the Vedas. It was revealed by Bhagwan Swaminarayan (1781-1830) in the late 18th century and established in 1907 by Shastriji Maharaj (1865-1951). Founded on the pillars of practical spirituality, the BAPS reaches out far and wide to address the spiritual, moral and social challenges and issues we face in our world. Its strength lies in the purity of its nature and purpose.

Also, as a non-religious hindu-by-birth brown, i think spending $40 mil on a temple is a bit silly and i question their motives.

It's always good to question motives and a $40M temple, even in a booming city like Toronto, will stand out.

I grew up near a $3M temple in a rural county where per capita income was $13,669 and median household income is about $29,882, according to the 2000 census

From a 'rational' standpoint, one would think that the $3M would've been better served by doling it out to the community or funding some sort of jobs-training program, but there's really nothing quite as magnetic to Yoga tourists as a gigantic lotus flower in the middle of the Virginia hill country.

And yes, until you go there, you'll never grasp it's true worth. Just like libertarians and right-wing Republicans blustering about the irrelevancy of the NEA, it's hard for the utilitarian observer to appreciate the artistic/architectural splendor of temples like the Swaminarayan and the Lotus.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/879612.cms

Opera and museum are utilitarian buildings they don't pretend to be some thing else.

Precisely!!

Philosophically, the idea behind at least some schools of Hinduism (not sure about BAPS) is to reduce attachment or moha, to be desirous of less and less. That everything is an illusion or Maya. I don't see how a structure like this which seems to be all about more and big adheres to that.

In practice too, whats been imbibed in me as a part of Hinduism is to place more importance to your fellow men/women and other living creatures.. to care about those who don't have what you have. I guess, I have not explicitly said this, but I do see the usefulness of temples but a simpler less ostentatious one would work just as well to connect with the good Lord. They surely don't need this experiment in grandeur for that.

Plus a temple is supposed to be a center for it's religion (hinduism in this case?? Unless it's different from BAPSism) Now this ostentatiousness is counter to whatever I know about Hinduism. Preach and practice seem a little out of sync here if BAPS does indeed share beliefs of other forms of Hinduism.

So whats the research on charitable giving-edifice building-tax deductions triangle?

They do so much good with their many hospitals,schools and other social activities.$40 million could have been spent on any of these activities. Temple is suppose to bring you toward God, not to show affluence of your religion/cult.

I think this is a naive view of how charity works. A prestigious mandir like this one will eventually become an engine for charitable work once it becomes established, and in the long run may generate much more than $40 million for the less fortunate. Also, I think the mandir will have a positive effect on the community that it's situated in; Toronto's a great place in a lot of ways, but architecturally inspiring it's not. Here's an article by the Toronto Star's art critic on the potential for the mandir to transform the city:

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/233400.

Ultimately, I think wasteofmoney and Ardy are being needlessly austere, and their objections ignore the important role that aesthetic experience plays in Hinduism. It doesn't seem like you guys would have much time for the awe-inspiring temples of South India, bharatnatyam, or carnatic music, since all those things take up time and resources that could have been better spent on feeding the poor, but I think Hinduism would be poorer without them.

The entrance is very similar to akshardham in new delhi!!!almost ditto it looks like

new delhi akshardham has fountain shows , with lights and everything, and a an imax movie screen that shows movie about swami narayan - its become a tourist attraction in delhi :-)

It doesn't seem like you guys would have much time for the awe-inspiring temples of South India, bharatnatyam, or carnatic music, since all those things take up time and resources that could have been better spent on feeding the poor, but I think Hinduism would be poorer without them.

EXACTLY. There would be no high culture or sophistication in the arts (including architecture) if these people had their way. After all everything costs money which could be better spent in another way, right? Take the Pyramids of Egypt...while acknowledging that (probably) back-breaking slave labor was involved in their creation, and also that some of Egypt's deforestation and environmental degradation came about from their creation, the fact remains that they are incredibly impressive and astounding structures, so beautiful in their deceptive simplicity. You marvel at the engineering, the conceptualisation, and the civilisation that produced them (with all its flaws). This Canadian temple, while not comparable, would nonetheless appear to be a respository of very high quality desi sculpture and temple craft. Which itself is a highly-developed art form and a philosophy.

I don't think an either/or perspective - i.e., temples or food for the hungry - is the way to go. Rather, both/and makes more sense. Sikh temples, for example, have their own grandeur. Yet they also have langars - food for pilgrims, the hungry and needy - both. The Hindu temple tradition does not have this tradition of free meals for the poor, although there are 'Hindu' charities and institutions that feed the poor and hungry in India. My family in India has a tradition of endowing monies to such charities, and I have maintained this tradition here by regularly contributing to soup kitchens, food banks, and homeless shelters, almost all of which are run by Church-affiliated charities. I have always wished that Hindu temples did this too.

Chachaji:

The Hindu temple tradition does not have this tradition of free meals for the poor,

Some temples have a practice called anna danam. Annam = cooked rice or, more generically, a square meal. danam = free gift. The Hindu temple in Livermore, CA has anna danam. Under Jayalalita's regime, the temples controlled by Tamil Nadu's state government also began to have anna danam.

My suspicion is that temples have anna danam if their coffers are full and drop it otherwise. Temple coffers fill when the economy booms. In the mid-seventies, the desi economy had stagnated, so temples were not running anna danam then. But things have changed now.

The entrance is very similar to akshardham in new delhi!!!almost ditto it looks like

Such a big hue & cry about 40M. i know that's huge dude! But imagine the investment in the long term. How many visitors will visit this place! SO much money will be spent by the visitors in the nearby businesses-motels, retail business etc- then also, think of the exposure of art and sculture that this mandir gives to the local schools, children and students of the arts! WOW!! i amnot in toronto, but am already making up my mind to visit it sometime when i am in that area.

On the matter of numbers, i checked www.bapscare.org and viola! they are involved in all sorts of good deeds. Guess they already put in millions of dollars in community well being across the world annually. Claim to put in over million manhours in societal aid, annually!!

Considering the fact that this mandir will help preserve the hindu culture and reflect indian tradition, for a pretty long time, in itself is a good reason to invest such amount! Needless to say, in INdia, due to cost of living, it would not have been such a big amount. Mital put in twice the amount in a wedding!! So, it's all relative, yaar!!:)

According to the BAPS Organization: "A mandir is man's attempt to recreate nature wherever he settles in villages, towns or cities where he can revive peace and tranquility and worship God in silent serenity."

Right on Amba. Great points made.

The Hindu temple tradition does not have this tradition of free meals for the poor,

I don't know much about Hindu tradition but I know from personal experience that this Swaminarayan temple gives out free meals on Sundays to anyone who shows up.

There is another large temple in Toronto called the Sanatan Mandir that also gives out free meals.

But I don't really know how prevalent this practice is at other temples.

Some temples have a practice called anna danam.

Most Hindu temples in India that I've been to don't, or didn't. There are other 'Hindu' charities that feed the poor, but usually not temples. Here's a description of one of the programs at the Livermore temple - though this is only for the New Years weekend, I hope it happens throughout the year too....

I don't know much about Hindu tradition but I know from personal experience that this Swaminarayan temple gives out free meals on Sundays to anyone who shows up.

I'm glad to hear this. But the news item said it just opened Sunday. Has it been actually open for much longer and just formally open last Sunday?

Societies since yore have been constructing as grand monuments as they can.
This is to inspire, to make man feel the grandness of the edifice reflected on him, to make him feel a part of a continuous something larger than himself.

Those who ask whether money might be better spent on feeding people, do not understand this, and I'm sad that they don't. They are missing out on that which makes being human "worth it".

I think its primary purpose was to establish, clearly and profoundly, the wealth and presence of the community that built it. There isn't anything wrong with that. Just, as a Torontonian (booming city?!), I can't get my head around that amount of money being spent on a building (i also dislike the rom crystal), especially when its location is so close to one of the poorest parts of the city.

But then, I'm probably a philistine. Muralimannered may be right, maybe it will inspire greatness or awe or maybe it will just be a diversion from the grey blandness of that part of the city.

I guess some final comments since the same points are being raised again and again and which I have tried to brifly address in my previous posts

- The point of it being a center for culture etc is something I agreed with when I said I see merits of there being temples. But I am not convinced if a 40 million one would do a lot more than say a 20 million one. Sure it will bring some advantages, but to me it seems like diminishing returns. I feel there has to be a balance between practicality and grandeur. Plus where do you stop, tomorrow some other city will try to make a better temple and this one upmanship could continue. Bottom line being, I feel this one went overboard, it could have achieved most of it's objectives without being so grand except that of being 'the coolest'. At no point am I saying that they had to do a sloppy job for austerity's sake.

- Someone pointed out about historically there being always the development of grand structures. I already mentioned that India no longer has the same luxury that it did say in the 1700s and earlier of 25% global trade etc. And even if not India, there are plenty of places needing a hand, people starving and dying or living off a dollar a day and not because they are bums who don't want to work. These folks could have set a grander example by doing more on that front.

In the end it still seems like, despite all the explanations and caveats given -

I think its primary purpose was to establish, clearly and profoundly, the wealth and presence of the community that built it.

And thats what I have a primary discomfort with, not with big temples, not with art but the vanity.

That said, to each his own - if I ever go to that part of the woods, I would surely love to see it. I have seen the Dilwara temples and they are just absolutely amazing.... this being seemingly inspired by the same definitely evokes an architectural interest in me. And I sure hope it engenders more charity than any other temple simply because of the grandness of it all.

Wow, this mandir looks awesome!!!!!!!!!! Being a practicing Hindu, it makes me feel proud. It shows that the Canadian Hindu community has truly arrived. I want to congratulate my Canadian Hindu brothers/sisters on achieving this feat. It would be great if we could have more such mandirs in North America (one in every major city).

Wow, this mandir looks awesome!!!!!!!!!! Being a practicing Hindu, it makes me feel proud. It shows that the Canadian Hindu community has truly arrived. I want to congratulate my Canadian Hindu brothers/sisters on achieving this feat. It would be great if we could have more such mandirs in North America (one in every major city).

most of the north american hindu temples i have seen are in okayish localities. the one that i remember is located in a stunning place is the temple at malibu beach.

I can't get my head around that amount of money being spent on a building (i also dislike the rom crystal), especially when its location is so close to one of the poorest parts of the city.

Didn't the ugly-ass ROM crystal cost $135 million? The $40 million price tag for the mandir seems modest in comparison. A lot of people don't realize just how expensive major architectural projects are. I think the fact that the mandir is located in a less salubrious neighbourhood is a point in its favour; the mandir didn't cost the people who live there anything because it wasn't publically funded, and having one beautiful building in an area dominated by strip malls might make the place a bit more liveable for its inhabitants.

Random observations from the opening.

I am glad the PM, the premier, the mayor and prominent members of the opposition party showed up. It is a huge boost for Toronto, who is in perpetual struggle for a larger size of the federal, provincial budgets. The attention is very welcome. That said, PM Harper looked petrified sitting on a throne while the courtesans danced in front of him (not an exaggeration).

Some aspects were unusual. The statues are placed two a side against each wall (more or less. I lost count) in the main temple space and I was surprised to see the gurus given equal honor as the Gods. There are some plaster lions (all are males btw) and swans in midflight in the lawn, and plastic ducks in the fountain. It didnt jive with the rest of the complex. But the kids had a lot of fun riding them. So maybe that was intentional.

If there is one recommendation I would make, that would be to locate garbage bins on the grounds. The volunteers were kind enough to hand out water bottles to the people waiting in lines. But there were no garbage baskets to deposit them, when empty. It's a simple remedy.

On a positive note, I saw a healthy representation of the southasian population - including Tamils, Punjabi hindus, Sikhs, hindus from the Gangetic belt, Gujratis, Nepalis etc. It felt good observing the confluence of desi society.

The temple is sublime in that the art doesnt distinguish from the architecture. I was not spiritually moved but it's a personal shortcoming. As a focal point for society, the temple has succeeded - as did the ROM. (Amba: I take offence at your last comment. The rock is an odd nut but opening night saw it attract a crowd that would never have ventured in. Even I renewed my membership after havign let it lapse over the last couple of years. more importantly, I was there from 2 to 6 (am) and the place was humming all night. not bad foR amuseum.)

BTW - chaddis and skirts (above knee) are not permitted inside the temple. Be aware. Photography isnt permitted inside, although there didnt appear to be any restrictions on taking cameras in.

FYI - for those planning a trip to TO (Attention: YoDad), the hindu sabha temple in brampton may also merit a visit.

Okay, a lot has been said about the $40m, BAPS etc. Those who object to the price-tag, I respond:

1. Who's to say what amount is right, you say $20m would be better, why not $10m, why not $10? Why not nothing? Why even have a temple? So unless you're really arguing not spending anything at all, back off!! And if you are indeed talking about not spending anything at all, we surely can have a conversation about that!
2. I couldn't believe it when you typed "Opera and museum are utilitarian buildings they don't pretend to be some thing else" !! DUDE!! (DUDETTE, whatever!!)) Have you seen even pics of the Sydney Opera House? You've completely missed the purpose of a museum's existance if you think that's utilitarian. It's essentially a temple in the secular tradition. Ever seen museum designs? Ever heard I.M.Pei or Neutra or Richard Rogers or Renzo Piano or our own Charles Correa? Or even Santiago Calatrava? When he builds a a friggin' point A to Point B bridge, it's not even just that. It will take me too long to get into what public buildings are and what the intent is etc. Why don't you read a bit of 'Form, space, and order' by Francis D.K. Ching, and 'An analysis of form' by Geoffrey Baker if you haven't, and perhaps we will be closer to at least a more common understanding of a museum's purpose. Then we can talk about whether $40m on a temple is too much. When Corbusier says 'The eyes which do not see' I think that applies here as well.
3. Like others have pointed out - to fixate on $40m expense is not realizing there's a dollar waiting on a dime here. To get more donations to do social work at a large scale you need a congregation point. The same critique is probably applicable to every building worth creating, and every building that's stood the test of time. Taj surely didn't need to be built, nor did Delwara Jain temples, or Ajanta/Ellora. Didn't the West try Modernism - all utility all the time? And got what? Projects, and ugly gray crap buildings with zero beauty that didn't inspire their inhabitants to become better. The built form in its purely utilitarian form is too stark to address humans' emotional, spiritual needs.

Ok now that the haterade is out, let me talk about BAPS and it's temples :)

They build temples to act as beacons to their followers and the general hindu population, similar to the B'hai Religion. It's sort of their marker if you will. In their religious interaction practices with their followers, they seem closer to American evangelism than any other religious group. Except for proselytizing. But just like in Churches here there's a strong tradition of tithing, so are the BAPS trying to do. I personally I guess only have problem with the extrovert nature of the movement which seems unlike Hinduism in that Hinduism is significantly introverted and focused on personal self. I prefer seeking out Hindu traditions, temples whatever as I feel a need for them, as opposed to being marketed to or pushed to. I also don't like the amusement park nature of the some of their steller temples. I don't like that the sadhus seem pretentious - if you're truly 'there' (as it seems by the respect they must command) what's a few ladies in front of you? What if they were nothing but skin? Why should any of it ruffle your feathers? There's a great fable in Hindu story tradition about it. Ping me if you care and I'll find and post it here.

I have very close friend whose family is swaminarayan. They invited us to some swaminarayan thing at their home, we went mistaking it for 'satyanarayan' katha. Ha!! We got there, found a bunch of monks in saffron, 'pravachan' in Gujrati which we don't understand, so it was not that spiritual for us. Our friends pass along DVDs of new temples etc. I'm just not into the swamis so it's never a priority. But there is an element of Hindu outreach there that I'm not completely square with. I do think it needs to be done in today's world for a way of life to survive, yet I do wish they didn't have their swami images much larger than Shiv and Krishn. I just don't feel that a human based in reality is God-like divine, any more than the rest of humans.

On the positive side, they do social work in India that is greatly needed, are able to tap into wealthy merchant/self-employed in a region that's always donated in the past and continues to need outlets it can trust for it's charity, are non-violent, try to put forth a slice of Hinduism with some packaging, and are far less pushy than ISKONites.

trollerboi and Seeker - nice posts and good points.

And trollerboi, thanks for the video link. Harper is often criticized for his stilted and wooden body language, and formal speech style - he makes Al Gore look positively lively and folksy. However, I liked his quote from Manmohan Singh.

'Courtesans' is an interesting choice of word - for the male dancers - who seemed mostly to dance behind him in the clip. Were there any female dancers at all? An interesting question since there seems to be so much ado about the 'swamis' not seeing females from up close etc.

And for anyone else who wants to clarify about the BAPS folk - I'm still a little unsure whether they do or don't seek converts, or whether there is in fact some distinctive set of beliefs that sets them apart from other Hindus - especially after Seeker's description of being invited to a 'swaminarayan thing'. I would imagine there is some distinction between clergy and laity - or does everyone dress up in saffron? And Seeker, I too would probably have confused that with a 'Satyanarayan pooja', before this post enlightened me about the BAPS!

I think this is a wondrous piece of inspired architecture, a high net positive by any account, still, I'm not sure I'd want to see a kind of competition between this temple and the Pittsburgh temple (or Lanham or Livermore or any other) to build bigger and grander, as someone was suggesting. Small and simple can be beautiful too.

Small and simple can be beautiful too.

One of my favorite mandirs was the Prabhadevi Ganesh Mandir in Mumbai.I had visited it way back when it was a little cavelike mandir with direct access to the deity.Then it got all spiffy when it was "discovered" specifically after Amitabh Bachchan nearly died and his wife promised to donate a lot of money to the mandir if he got better.The temple was rearchitected with a large "gopuram" topped with pure gold.Its still beautiful but in a different way - more commercial now .The idol is the same but darshan is limited to a few minutes because of the throngs trying to get in ...

Thanks Chachaji :)

I know they have distinctive set of beliefs that overlap some but not completely with other beliefs in Hinduism. One is it's swami leadership and divinity as others have mentioned, another may be celibacy (not sure- extrapolating from having not seen Sadhvees, and the description of gender segregation above). I too don't know whether they seek converts - I've been to another swaminarayan thing in the past and there too, it didn't seem that they were trying to get converts, also not sure if they have religious procedures in place to bring the convert-to-be into their mainstream. Only the clergy does uniform, and I think that time they were wearing white...

I know that the swamis travel from India to US, UK etc. and only stay at devotee homes for a few days at a time so different families get to host them before they move to their next destination city - kinda like being on a concert circuit :)

I don't care how $$$ they spent on this magnificent structure. It is on Canadian soil and that is worth it.

WasteOfMoney on July 25, 2007 04:06 PM · Direct link
what do you get for $40 million from any religion : nothing,zero, shunya
Toronto got a beautiful building, and considering how architecturally dire Toronto is, that ain't nothing.

So a beautiful building (in the name of religion) is better then feeding 40000 families!!!
Being a Hindu I was always told to feed the hungry and help the poor. I see Hindus donating a ton of money to temple but won't give $20 for Tsunami victims, won't buy $5 tickets in a local fund raiser.

Enough about the $40 million. To put a structure with this level of detail in a major metropolitan Canadian City for $40 million is a steal. The importance about the philanthropic effects of this project are not determined by the absolute amount of money spent, but the percentage of money that is allocated to:

Lnd aquisition (Purely Canadian Transaction)
Mterial transport cost (Which Airline was used)
Mterial aquisition (Percentage that is Indian/Canadian)
Lgistics and design (donated? Indian/Canddian mix)
Local (Canadian) labour (% volunteer/paid/visa workers)
Freign (Indian) laobour

What a lot of posters such as wasteofmoney and other armchair economists seem to be missing is that the use of Indian labour for creating the components for this project represents a transfer of funds from a G8 country to a Developing Country and in a sector of the economy (mannual craft labour) that is not part of the emerging Indian Middle class (meaning there is still excess labour in this area). These temples are creating a market for Indian labourers and supporting them without giving them a handout. As long as they are not indentured labourers, this project feeds the family of workers involved and depending on the wages garnered allows them to make their own consumption/savings (if any) decisions.

Furthermore the money circulating in the Indian market will have a multiplier effect that will be experienced by the local community as a whole.

I would be interested in seeing what percentage of the budge went to each of the cost centers listed above. It would also be interesting to see how this measures with the (administrative/allocation) budgets of other NGOs.

It always boggles the mind when I see so much money being spent on places of worship. I mean if there was a god, would he not be happier if the $40 million was was used for something else to help your fellow man? Nevertheless gorgeous temple.

I was at the Delhi one a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking exactly the same thing. It was awesomely beautiful and wonderful. The workmanship was unbelieveable - but ultimately, there wasn't anything spritual about the place. I left feeling a little empty.

I personally I guess only have problem with the extrovert nature of the movement which seems unlike Hinduism in that Hinduism is significantly introverted and focused on personal self.

If this is true then why all the millions of temples in India? Why all the extroverted mahotsavas (festivals) and the kathas/kirtans broadcast over a very loud loud-speaker in practically every town and village?

Honestly, Hinduism is both introvert and very, very extrovert.

Vikas,
What you say is not false, however, none of it is disneyfied or bent on outreach. Temples, festivals are still part of internal, personal dialog. Loud-speakers are pure stupidity - it simply cannot be justified in any tradition.

Vikas, What you say is not false, however, none of it is disneyfied or bent on outreach. Temples, festivals are still part of internal, personal dialog. Loud-speakers are pure stupidity - it simply cannot be justified in any tradition

There are some sects in Hinduism which are very out-reachy and they have always been.

So I say Hinduism has both aspects.

Let me comment on 3 themes that have a common thread in the feed back:
1a) COST - First of all, I think $40m is not hard cash - I would say a subtantial part of that sum is cost in kind - expertise of volunteer engineers, stone specialist, logistics experts and donation in kind!
1b) Could the funds have been used better elsewhere? - The Mandir indirectly encourages us to draw our attention to the less fortunate than us - it definitely helps to make us into better humans. Traditionally, we Indians are used to support educational and health needs by digging into our pockets. Is it not time we elect a government that takes care of these basic needs as priority 1 like the rest in the West?

2) Segregation of Women - Instinctly we tend to congregate into groups of women and men whether it is a wedding function or religious gathering. At BAPS gatherings it is more noticed because it is enforced upon us! It is worth remembering that this is done to help the sadhus follow their vows - even if they break this vow accidently they have to fast for 24 hours. In reality, the sadhus are quite proficient in following this particular vow in public- during travels, visits to exhibitions and other public places etc! It is very unfortunate that some BAPS volunteers are over zealous.

3) Fund Raising Unfortunately, the morden society we live in does not tick without money. To do any notable projects one needs to raise funds. Every organisation I have come across has fund raising programmes. The question we should be concerned with is wheather the funds are used for what they are collected for. (Does any body share my observation that the people who do not contribute a cent are the most voiceferous on this subject?)

Hi everyone,

This is quite an interesting conversation. I've known many members of BAPS throughout my life and I thought I would comment on some of the things that have been said in this discussion. I raised a similar question that many of you have been raising about spending $40M on this instead of feeding the poor. However, if you go to www.bapscharities.org, you will see that this same organization spends a lot of time, money, and manpower in helping people. I heard about how they helped people after the Gujarat earthquake and I was completely bowled over! This is an organization that focuses on both community service and spirituality.

And frankly, I'm proud of the Toronto temple. I think that it is a testament to the nature of modern society, where communities are becoming more diverse. And if the Swaminarayan followers want to build a place of worship, why should we criticize it?

And as for the separation of women, I don't think it is as bad as we make it sound. Yeah, sure the women are separated. But this is so that the monks who have taken the 8-fold celibacy vow don't get tempted to break it. In today's age of sex scandals in religions across the world, including Hinduism, I think it's a welcome change to see this particular organization strive to keep the purity of it's monks' vows.

As a previous poster pointed out, Lord Swaminarayan, who is their God, worked really hard for the upliftment of women. He lived over 200 years ago and at that time, according to societal norms, families who gave birth to baby girls would drown them in milk and kill them because they couldn't afford to pay a dowry when it came time for that girl to get married. Society also promoted the practice of sati, where widows would be burned alive on their husband's funeral pyre. Lord Swaminarayan and his monks worked to stop these practices and many others that to us seem simply indigestible.

Also, many of the people I have known are women of BAPS and I have never gotten the impression that they felt segregated against. They all understand the need for separation. And they all come with their own free will. In fact, the separation serves to empower these women help them develop a sense of their own identity, separate from their husband or father, which many times is hard to do in Indian society.

These are just some observations I have made about BAPS.

I was reading some of the comments, and figured this would be a good place to ask a question that I have always wondered about: How do you differentiate between sects, cults, and religions? (And related, why is scientology, for example, more objectionable than ?)

I was reading some of the comments, and figured this would be a good place to ask a question that I have always wondered about: How do you differentiate between sects, cults, and religions?

Rahul, this is what I found. I hope it helps:

cult [kuhlt] - noun: Any religion that isn't yours.

[Origin: 1610–20; L cultus habitation, tilling, refinement, worship, equiv. to cul-, var. s. of colere to inhabit, till, worship + -tus suffix of v. action]

They main aim is Tourist Attraction.. it has an Cultural Musueme at the Bottom of the Temple.. that is right.. when someone was comparing it to disneyland...
Its more so to educate people about vedic culture.. i beleive...

and adding to that comment i just made.. its is a good way to preserve culture and it been said apparently it will last for my generations the way the made it from weather and stuff.. even though they spend lots of money...
its good for preserving culture

Rahul # 139

How about this?

Religion: specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

sect:A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice

Cult: a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

These are some acceptable dictionary definitions and also the way I usually use these terms.

sorry for the tandem post but..
Rahul,
Its all a matter of perception .A Scientologist will probably find Hinduism bizarre ;-)
Religion is so personal that its little wonder that the world is full of people fighting over it because no one can agree on what is "right"

Thanks, Runa. But I am still having difficulty understanding when a belief system crosses these boundaries, and when I should start feeling all outraged about it. Which of the following is false, unorthodox, or extremist?

1. Belief system A: Has, in its practice, an elaborate set of groups and subgroups with an established hierarchy justified by ancient texts, and some subgroups being completely ostractized from society or interaction with other groups.

2. Belief system B: Believes, among other things, that pain in people is caused by remnants of aliens from some long-ago conquest, and that mothers should give birth silently to avoid inducing aberrations that can cause pain and suffering in the baby.

3. Belief system C: Believes some or all of the following: the world was created 6000 years ago, has had incidents where established members of this system have abused their reputation in the community to sexually assault unsuspecting members, and have been shielded by the organization, and posits that their leader will appear one day and take all the true believers with him back to heaven.

Rahul,

I think with B. Scientology you identified their core beliefs, but with A. Hinduism and C. Christianity you cherry picked the worst aspects. Both religions have contributed greatly to civilization. Even if you don't accept the beliefs, they have made contributions to art, literature, architecture, etc. What has scientology contributed?

Even if you don't accept the beliefs, they have made contributions to art, literature, architecture, etc. What has scientology contributed?

ups, maybe we should make the judgment after a couple thousand years when we've let entire countries of people be swayed by a particular belief system then? That seems only fair. Maybe in the year 4000, we will recognize the version of Battlefield Earth that exists then as a classic in the same realm as the Gita and the Testaments.

I think with B. Scientology you identified their core beliefs, but with A. Hinduism and C. Christianity you cherry picked the worst aspects.

As for A and C, I definitely haven't listed all their worst aspects. And who is to decide what are core beliefs are what are side beliefs? I can only go by what the infallible leaders tell me to do.

"Maybe in the year 4000, we will recognize the version of Battlefield Earth that exists then as a classic in the same realm as the Gita and the Testaments."

OK

But I am still having difficulty understanding when a belief system crosses these boundaries, and when I should start feeling all outraged about it

Personally,I would only feel outraged when :
1) The belief system affects me personally in a negative way OR
2) The belief system itself - and NOT just a few adherents of that belief system - systematically oppress a class of people.

To address your examples:
- Scientology in itself does not affect me personally and so far,I haven't seen that it harms anyone.So I feel no need to feel outrage about it. ( I still reserve the right to feel outraged at TOm Cruise's wooden screen performances though!)
-Per my understanding, Hinduism in itself does not require adherence to the caste system .Being Hindu is not = being casteist so I have no problems with being Hindu. I can still feel- and do feel- outraged at the terrible crimes that are committed in the name of caste .
- Some members of the Catholic clergy have sexually abused children .It is a terrible crime but that does not mean that the Catholic religious beliefs are to blame. That does not lessen my outrage at the crime but I see no need to feel outrage at the religion itself.

1. Belief system A: Has, in its practice, an elaborate set of groups and subgroups with an established hierarchy justified by ancient texts, and some subgroups being completely ostractized from society or interaction with other groups. (emphasis is mine)

i think, "in practice" doesn't denote dogma--a component that Hinduism as a unit certainly lacks. If the blame for the phenomonon of the caste system is to be placed, I think we can turn quite confidently to the various societies that propagated the system down through the years.

Scientology on the other, certainly does have it's own dogmas--chief among them, a hatred of psychiatry and psyhiatrists--I admit my own bias here as my favorite uncles is one--but I do remember Scientologists protesting on the streets of Melbourne, spraying vitamin-fortified spittle at passers-by, while 'exposing' members of the medical community as immoral monsters preying on the weak. Some psychiatric pharms are certainly overprescribed, but that's hardly specific to psychiatry--there are other medical specialties in which signature pharms are also overprescribed.

The mind is also a subject for which we know much of what works--but not why (which is dangerous in and of itself)--but I don't think we should suspend our inquiry for the sake of a few, well-heeled, DYI, health maniacs

I just recoil when a religion makes a truth-claim about human nature, and then starts to attack the field of science which specializes in it. There is room for improvement, certainly, but now is not the time to start treating bipolar disorder with vitamins and 20 minutes on the treadmill. I think that's dangerous, quite frankly.

In the pilgrim places and the holy shrines, be charitable and serve food to the priests, sadhus and poor worshipers, according to your means of subsistence.
Shloka: 83

chachaji

All Swaminarayan temples serve for to the poor and needy. Lord Swaminarayan instructed his devotees to do so. So finding temples that do such shouldn't be hard. Another thing is your misconceptions about the BAPS faith, you should atleast look through BAPS website before making incorrect judgements.

http://www.swaminarayan.org/scriptures/shikshapatri/gems.htm

fixed.

BAPS Charitable work

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk0MDYmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTcxNzcwODQmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

Is it just that BAPS is not looking for non-Indian converts or do they not accept non-Indian converts? Even some Orthodox Churches refused people of Western European decent to become members, because they were not seen as suitable to understand Orthodox teachings in the opinions of their Church leaders. Nowadays, they are most welcome to Western members and many Hindu organizations do accept Western members as well. What about BAPS? To be honest, I am myself myself very interested in the Hindu religious scriptures, but would like to study them together with Indian and non-Indian Hindus alike. Are there any non-Indian worshippers or is BAPS open to everybody?

Michael,

Yes, BAPS is open to all. There are devotees who are non-Indian.

Michael

Yes, BAPS takes non-indian converts. I'm visit the Neasden temple(London) all the time and there are white, black, east asian worshippers, not just visitors. So, of course you can follow the faith, it's just majority indian, right now. Anyway, things change overtime, BAPS is very progressive, which is why it's one of the most well known hindu organizations. Peace.

i feel its good that temples are being.. built one its preserve culture for the future but mostly we will forget everything about the hindu culture.. this will tell be about hindu culture and make them want to learn more about..
thats main reason the temple is being built
also yeah its also tourist attraction.. to education people about hinduism,.. i feel that is thier main purpose to education the ppl most people feel hinduism werid with millions of gods in reality which is not tru..

this temple makes it easier for man to comprehend vedic culture.. so spending 40 millions to preserve culture is a good thing.. espically when ur not in india..there at least someting being preserved!

gino italiano

I agree with you, the temple will pay for itself over time. With all the charity events, womens events, and education events, non-addiction campaigns that will go on this can be easily done in less than a decade. Not to mention that it's a house of GOD, providing spiritual comfort to millions of people. You can put no value on that.

for u all ...i would just say a word that whoever wants to know about what is BAPS and their activities...plz visit..
www.swaminarayan.org and i hope u all get answers to your questions..thnx .. may god bless us.

http://www.bapscharities.org/

I just thought i would note for many of you that hate doubts and questions about the Hindu Swaminarayan BAPS faith. You should visit two sites.

www.baps.org

and

www.bapscharities.org

Look at the this link for answers to almost all of those questions mentioned above.

http://www.swaminarayan.org/faq/index.htm

Instead of bashing on another religion without knowing anything about it...and just assuming, study it more than just a few incidents because not everyone's perfect, so each religion is going to have the people that aren't perfect.

Read the FAQ's if questions remain...repost, i will try to answer them to your liking.

Jay Swaminarayan to all,

Bo