July 24, 2007
It's a nice day for a white (brown) weddingIdentity
Apologies to Billy Idol, but a recent article in the Washington Post about local weddings has me thinking in the abstract (I’m as far from the lavan as I have ever been) about wedding customs and how they change.
The article makes a number of interesting points. It starts by describing how non-desis have discovered the business opportunities involved in brown weddings, such as Sue Harmon who has two white mares specially reserved for baraat duty, or Foxchase Manor which has learned how to handle the havan without setting off all the fire alarms:
“The normal instinct is to blow out the fire when you’re done … But that creates this huge puff of smoke that’s actually much bigger than when the fire is lit. So the key is to keep the fire in a portable container, and then when you’re done, you carry it outside and close all the doors before blowing it out.” With an average of 80 South Asian weddings a year, the staff has had ample opportunity to perfect the technique, he added. [Link]
Still more interesting to me was a story of how other “ethnic” couples have adapted some aspects of desi ceremonies:
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Why wear white? |
South Asian vendors, meanwhile, are increasingly hearing from non-South Asian couples who want to borrow their customs. Caucasian couples who came across photos of Sood’s creations … have asked her to decorate their weddings in the same shades of maroon and gold. She’s even draped a mandap — the wedding canopy — with kente cloth for an African couple… [Link]
But the bit that really caught my attention was about how ABDs are wanting to have hybrid wedding ceremonies that incorporate aspects of the white weddings they grew up watching on television:
Perhaps most radical, however, is the growing use of whites and ivories in the decorations. “In Indian culture, white signifies mourning,” she said. “It used to be such a taboo for weddings. But now so many brides are demanding it.”
Priti Loungani-Malhotra, 32, a dressmaker based in Arlington County, has even designed a white version of the classic Indian wedding gown, with a mermaid-shaped lengha, or skirt, that would do Vera Wang proud. [Link]
I always thought precisely those two aspects of western weddings - the procession down the isle and the white dress / black tux were boring and dull compared to the circumambulation of holy objects (at least in some desi weddings) and bright red wedding garments. I know I’m a guy, and the long walk down the isle brings attention to the bride, but I just never liked it. For one thing, I don’t like the parts of either culture that view a woman as something to be given from one man (the father) to another (the husband).
How many of you would (or did) seize control of your wedding from your parents and create a wedding ceremony that incorporated aspects of both cultures? Are you all more enamoured of white wedding customs than I am?
[An aside] Incidentally, the whole white wedding thing comes from Queen Victoria who changed white from a color of royal mourning (as amongst many desis) to the color of the virgin bride:
Queen Victoria was not the first royal bride to wear a white wedding gown, but the first of the modern era. White had been a traditional color of royal mourning, and although not often utilized as such, white was not considered a suitable choice for a royal wedding. Victoria’s choice popularized the white gown as no other had before her. [Link]
ennis on July 24, 2007 10:43 PM in Fashion, Identity · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Of course, Desi-Christian brides (whether Christian themselves or marrying in a Christian wedding ceremony) wear white dresses often. My friend had a white lengha to incorporate both cultures in her Christian ceremony and another who had both a Christian and Hindu ceremony had a reception lengha that was White and Red. I think that is a nice way of doing things.
Personally, I always find it hard, after growing up with an idea of "weddings" being walking down the aisle, publicly sharing vows, etc. etc., to sort of let go of these "dream weddings." I don't think I'd ever have a white wedding myself, as I like the red-gold and the pheras and all, but I do like ideas like bridesmaids and personalized vows and ring exchanges. It's hard to resist the mass media image of weddings...
Besides, we have our own walking down the aisle, just in reverse. Hello Dolis!
my mom is a wedding coordinator in the Chicago area and i've had the opportunity to witness and participate in a number of cross-cultural weddings. most of the time, cross cultural adaptions are done with a honest-to-goodness desire to incorporate something of value from another culture, but sometimes its just that someone thinks something was "cool" and had to replicate it. that really bothers me, as i know the exotification of subcontinental culture to others on SM.
when i got married, my husband, who is not indian, really wanted an indian wedding. (he said he'd been to enough boring western ceremonies.) given that i'm the 1st on both sides of my family to get married and my mom is a wedding coordinator, i basically surrendered the right to make a decision the day he and i got engaged.
still, i think there is value in doing something "traditional" if it is done with a pure heart and serves a larger purpose. in my case, instead of my father leading me to the groom, my mama did (as is customary for gujrati nagaars). so the "woman as chattel" aspect still kinda existed. but hy husband's family, most of whom had never left the same little WI town they grew up in, also got to be a part of something that opened their eyes. that was worth it. perhaps that was the most radical thing of all.
on a side note, a year later we attended the wedding of one of his friends, who had been at our wedding. the night before they were to get married, the bride came up to us and admitted, in a rather embarrassed fashion, that they had "stolen" our wedding vows, because they liked them so much! we didn't want to ruin it for her and tell her that people had been saying those same vows for 5000 years... ;)
there's an interesting article about indian/south asian weddings at Hypen: http://www.hyphenmagazine.com/blog/archives/2007/07/divorce_and_mar.html
"Why Wear White" - lol, cute. I can see an Indian bridal store using that line =)
“In Indian culture, white signifies mourning,”
not in some south indian cultures though, right?
Of course, Desi-Christian brides (whether Christian themselves or marrying in a Christian wedding ceremony) wear white dresses often.
but this must be recent. i checked wiki, and the "white wedding" became popular after queen victoria's ceremony in the mid-19th century, and didn't become normative in britain until the mid-20th century. so what did syrian christians do traditionally? many muslim south asian weddings incorporate conventional indian cultural motifs & styles, though there is often the supplemental islamic "ceremony." my own general understanding is that most western european wedding customs derive from their own pre-christian traditions. after all, until the past few centuries most peasants operationally had common law marriages since bells and dresses and sacraments were generally the purview of the elites (whose marriages the catholic church regulated strictly in terms of degrees of incest, etc.).
p.s. i believe what the "christian" wedding is really popular in japan now.
The Hindu wedding ceremony is far more poetic and romantic than the clumsy, explicit Christian one. The garment of the bride tied to the garment of the groom - so much more graceful and eloquent than just blurting out 'in sickness and in health blah blah'. Similarly, the circling of the fire seven times is so much more powerful a statement than the in-your-face vows in western weddings.
I am speaking purely aesthetically - I'm not religious.
Can we keep this cultural rather than religious? I'd rather not cause gratuitous offense to the sentiments of our Christian readers.
The only Syrian Christian wedding I know, the bride wore the Malayalee mundum-neryathu, the kind with a red blouse and white and gold-bordered Sari portion.
Anyway, I was speaking about more recent times, not ancient (is 1800s ancient?) traditions.
You mean, of course, your maternal uncle! This is common in Bengali Hindu weddings as well.
So, he's Hindu and I'm Christian (both nominally). We're doing both ceremonies and strangely, I think the Christian/U.S./Western one will end up being more traditional than it would have been had I married someone from the same background. Neither of us are particularly traditional or religious, but somehow we ended up doing both in their somewhat "pure" format rather than a combined thing or less-traditional versions of either. Not sure why. I did insist on getting rid of the part of *both* ceremonies that involved my supposedly being "given away".
since almost no one at my wedding will be brown (i am skeptical my extended family would fly from the UK or the middle east or bangladesh) it is going to be mostly cookie-cutter american. it helps though that we are both atheists so we can pick and choose based aesthetic/personal considerations and nothing imposed due to religious constraints.
As a malayalee christian, ive seen plenty of christian weddings with white wedding dresses (or white saris) and the inclusion of other western customs. None of these weddings were "clumsy" or not "poetic." Its simply a matter of perspective. There really is nothing objectively wrong about Christian weddings and western wedding customs.
Can we keep this cultural rather than religious? I'd rather not cause gratuitous offense to the sentiments of our Christian readers.
...and since there are 2 billion christians of all races and cultures i doubt there is a stereotypical "christian" wedding. e.g., i doubt ethiopians, who have been christian longer than most europeans, have what is being called a "christian" wedding up to this point. now, since it seems that many of the more recognized aspects of western weddings are recently recent i am curious as to how old "traditional" south asian wedding customs are.
my curiosity piqued, i've been lookin' around. check this for the origin of the 'best man':
During Anglo-Saxon England weddings the bride would stand to the left of her groom so that his sword arm was free. The Best Man would keep his hand on his sword ready to fend off trouble and protect the couple. Often during these times, the best swordsman in the area was chosen as the Best Man.
The brides who wore the unusual combo should get a 'red & white' bravery award.
Anyway ..where did you get the pic from ..the model is nice :P
I don't find the church wedding format unromantic or anything, it's just that a desi wedding ceremony seems more binding, for one thing because it takes so very long. The red and white bride bothers me because it's so halfway house. Either do the one thing or the other, I say, or mandaps will become chupas and the groom will ride a white horse down the aisle.
Anyway ..where did you get the pic from ..the model is nice :P
*roll eyes* well, at least we hit double digits before that objectifying comment came out....
In Desi weddings, it's the horse that has to look like Queen Victoria.
i have to admit that i've been programmed to desire an engagement ring and white wedding dress. but, in recent years, i've also come to accept that regardless of whom i marry, i am in for a multiple-day ceremony complete with ugly 9 yds. sari, lots of red (my least favorite color), etc. my compromise -- told to my mother last week, met with ~15 mins. of laughter -- is that i demand a stylish white cocktail dress (made from sari material, natch) at my very-fun-not-religious-lots-of-dirty-dancing reception.
Gujarati brides traditionally wear a panetar sari that is red and white. I've seen Hindu and Christian brides wearing panetars.
I am reluctant to engage in rituals for rituals' sake but I love traditions that mean something... the origin doesn't matter. Oh and I think it is fascinating to watch traditions tweaked to reflect modern life-- like bringing Cadbury's fingers for the bride rather than burfi.
cadbury fingers?! but why?? burfi is so much yummier..
I think it's pretty much the case in most Hindu weddings, at least the Saraswat and Maratha ones I've been to, that the bride's maternal uncle "gives her away." When I was a kid, my mother told me that this was because in the "old days" girls were married off at such a young age that their parents were to distraught to walk them in (or, if they were young enough, carry them in), so the uncle took over. But I think she might have made that up.
Also, she's usually being given away to her husband's family, not just to the groom alone.
You know something that occurred to me at mixed weddings. I prefer the looseness at Indian weddings. Even though they shorten the wedding mantras for the whiteys, the ceremony itself seems to be dragged out because we are all forced to sit in silence actually having to listen to not only the mantras, but also the English translations. I start to feel restless after 15 min. I prefer the whole, talk to your friends, glance at the wedding ceremony, talk again, and then everyone focuses on the pair for the final rice throwing thing and when the music cues up for the mangalsutra and garlands thing. But then again, I pity the bride and groom who have to sit there on the floor for an hour. So I definitely am not going that route though I prefer it as a viewer. I do not like the concept of best man and bridesmaids.
And what is up with the Indian guy in a suit and the wife in a sari at some weddings. You would think he could find some INdian concoction to match his wife's for the one hour.
Anothing thing at mixed weddings I have been to. The whites seem to talk in really stereotypical white superpolite tones(you know the kind parodied in Wayans Bros movies) in their speeches. And a lot of blah blah about how Indian culture has opened this magical world to them and blah blah. THey don't sound like our regular white friends.
I wore a suit for my wedding while my wife wore a beautiful lehenga. The logic was simple - the only "Indian concoctions" available were bright, shiny ones that I would not feel comfortable wearing. I was ready to go for a plain cotton kurta-pajama, but my bride didn't like the idea. So I chose to dress conservatively rather than squirm in a shiny new sherwani.
Plus the suit was easier to take off afterwards.
Finally. someone who admits it. Spending large amounts of money on a wedding ring is equivalent to throwing the money over the brooklyn bridge. (In fact throwing it over the BB is a bit better, there's a chance some of it might land on a passing tugboat or something, and maybe help someone in the future)
my family is punjabi and my bf's family is catholic. we've talked about getting married but are not sure about the ceremony. i love the idea of bringing two cultures/faiths/families together but i wouldnt want to dillute either tradition by having a blended wedding, nor can i imagine getting married in a church and wearing white. we have discussed the possibility of two ceremonies, one hindu and one catholic - but that just feels like we couldnt decide.
It looks like the official "get white people to tack on '....and the women there are absolutely beautiful' to any conversation reg'ding India" picture.
since almost no one at my wedding will be brown (i am skeptical my extended family would fly from the UK or the middle east or bangladesh) it is going to be mostly cookie-cutter american.
Are your parents and siblings not planning on attending the marriage?
For me anyways, the white (in my case golden-beige) came from my maternal uncle's house and the red saree came from my husband's family. The traditional white symbolizes the bride's 'purity' etc and the red is the symbol of marital bliss.
We went all traditional in the wedding, complete with small ceremonies and the much dreaded 'haldi' ceremony too. I liked it. I remember being in awe, knowing that just about every woman I know went through it. We had a rather dramatic priest and he sure gave us all a fright when he yelled out, 'Kanya padhare...sawdhaan!'. To date, my brothers joke that it sounded like clarion call for war. :)
i, personally like the idea of combining traditions to create new ones. my catholic/hindu parents got married in a methodist church with a priest and a swami, christian and hindu vows (although i think my mom rewrote them to be more woman-friendly), a fire in the church, garlands, and christian clothes.
My wedding was 100% desi red and gold! For a while, my husband and I talked about doing two weddings, an American/Christian one as well as the desi/Hindu one...had we done so, I had decided to wear a tussar*-colored wedding dress with red trim, carrying bright red roses, and the bridesmaids would have worn red. It's a choice that I've seen offered by American bridal stores in the past 5 to 10 years.
*only because pure white makes me look green. Raw silk does much better for the average desi complexion, whether you have green undertones or not.
to this, i would add "you know there's no point!"
My husband is desi and I am not, and like Sari Virgin we had two ceremonies, on the same day. White-dress wedding first, then the red and gold which went right into the reception. That specific order was important, because I thought it was too spooky (unlucky?) to be draped in lovely red with sindoor in my hair and then immediately wash it out and put on a white dress on a few hours later.
So, we had two separate ones because we thought a single hybrid wedding ceremony would end up pleasing no one. A wedding is for the couple, sure, but it's more about couple declaring their commitment publicly, to their communities. Weddings are more about the two families. Our families were supportive, but my family would be a little sad and disconnected if they couldn't see me in a white dress cutting a cake, his family would feel the same way if they couldn't see him come in on a horse and walk the pheras. We did both with love, and both families (up to the grandmothers, and down to the little kids on both sides) were happy and thrilled. Have two ceremonies! It doesn't need to be twice as expensive. It's worth it.
P.S. All my non-desi friends and family loved the looser nature of the desi ceremony - all you have to do is tell them ahead of time not to sit there stiffly and watch silently for the 5-6 hours! They immediately get it and enjoy themselves just like any of the all-desi affairs we'd ever been to. A simple step the bride and groom can take to avoid awkwardness on all sides.
No, I've also always thought white wedding dresses were the epitome of dull. The most amazing thing about Indian weddings is walking into a hall and seeing the assortments of brightly colored saris that everyone's wearing :) I find it kind of offensive to wear white to an Indian wedding... it's kind of like wearing a black wedding dress, isn't it?
Others had mentioned before...but this tradition I think is true for most malayalee Catholics:
-White wedding sari for church ceremony
-A Red manthrakodi (sari) is worn at reception. The manthrakodi is a gift from the groom's family and a string from the sari is used to tie the thali around the neck of the bride. This is in addition to exchanging wedding rings.
Question for Muslim desi's:
I have a friend who is Muslim and tells me that wearing a wedding ring is optional for both men/women. Is that true? Is that not part of the wedding ceremony? Just curious to know.
We're having the Hindu ceremony first and the Christian one later just because of scheduling issues. I don't know what I'm going to do about my hair, etc. Meanwhile, Pravin, could you kindly refrain from referring to us as "whiteys"?
Am surprised I'm the only one from a non-Syrian desi christian family on this discussion yet. There are a LOT of white weddings that happen in India, at Catholic functions from bombay to goa to mangalore to kerala, i.e. the descendants of christian converts by portuguese settlers in Goa - i.e. people with the last name Lewis, fernandes, Dsouza, Dsilva, rodrigues, so on and so forth
We have all added our own 'local flavours' to the white weddings, and we hardly see them as 'western concepts' any more. They are as 'traditional ' to us as our ancestral homes, and regardless of its origins, they are ours for the keeping. For instance, while the entire ceremony at church is traditional white gown bride + black suited groom, the reception immediately following it has lots of local components to it. Mid-way through the reception, the bride goes off for a bit to change into a red traditional sari ... etc. This 'mangalorean/goan culture' has fused western and indian cultural aspects to form a culture that is pretty vibrant in its celebrations esp weddings...
None of us think 'white weddings' are anywhere near boring as a few commentators above have mentioned. There are good and bad aspects of both cultures, and one has to see these things in the right perspective.
Finally. someone who admits it.
HMF - i don't think milli is alone in that. when i tell people that i'm completely indifferent to the engagement/wedding ring bit, it is distinctly my female friends who lament this.
milli, the (inevitable) fact that i would even get married is a compromise, but like you, there will be requisite drinking and dirty dancing, and of coure, nice clothes.
a few years ago, i told my mother that i didn't plan on wearing my mangalsutra after marriage. with a severely angry look, she told me i might as well run off to vegas and elope, instead of wasting all that time and money on a hindu ceremony! honestly, that doesn't sound like a bad plan. desi weddings are huge, oftentimes unnecessarily expensive, and a bit too conformist for my taste. i think it would be great if it could be a party, without any set or required rituals, that just celebrated the commitment of the couple. that would mean no red-gold-white theme, and maybe a dress code of chic casual. with, of course, lots of drink, food, and music - i sincerely think these three are key to any social event...
I'm sorry, I didn't quite grasp that. Are you saying that more women lament the fact their would-be suitors are rushing out to spend exorbitant amounts of money on pieces of jewelry while the poor women are scratching their eyes out trying to figure out how not to make this happen?
Or are you saying your female friends lament the fact that you are indifferent to the wedding ring bit?
aaah, I put it in there to practice for my Real World audition as the minority with the chip on his shoulder.
At least I did not say uptighty whiteys.
Actually, the real secret is that Camille has been agreeing with me too much lately. Maybe this will make her put one of her old disapprovals.
I'm not married but I absolutely love the idea of incorporating bridesmaids into Desi weddings. The idea of having your closest and dearest friends and relatives be an integral part of the ceremony really warms my heart. I've been to a few where the bridesmaid either wore identical sari's of the same color or identical sari's in different colors and it was so nice.
I have no problem with people talking during the Indian wedding ceremony as I know first hand how hard it is to sit through an hour-long one (or an hour and a half one like the one I attended this past weekend).
DQ wrote:
You've obviously not gone to many "Christian" weddings.Well, neither my wife nor I had the time, energy, or desire to set up the classic fusion wedding here, so, accompanied by our two best friends, we went to the Boston City Hall and got hitched. She (white) wore a bridal sari (red) that my mother had sent; I (brown) was in a suit. Silly me, thinking this would somehow excuse us from having to go through the multiple day-long festivities that constitute desi weddings. As soon as we landed in Dhaka, several months later, we were whisked away by my mother, uncles, and cousins, telling us that they had everything arranged. "Everything" apparently comprised 2 separate receptions, one corresponding to the Bengali gaye holud and the other to the bou bhaat, with a whole slew of both our extended families and friends being present. Ended up being quite enjoyable really, since neither my wife nor I had anything to do but look spiffy (sherwanis this time for me, more saris for her), talk, and eat.
Someone upthread remarked that white isn't a color of mourning for S.Indians..as with most things India-related, it depends.
All white is *generally* considered an inauspicious color among *most* S.Indian hindus - but there are several communities that have brides/grooms dressed in white - typically cream colored rather than stark white. Example: Telegu Kamma brides - White with red or green border is common, but white with a Gold border isn't unknown, AFAIK. Some communities dye a white cotton sari yellow with turmeric. Most S.Indian grooms wear some version of dhoti to their weddings, and this is usually white with a Gold border, or in some cases, red/green border. Tamil Iyengar grooms have their wedding dhotis dyed yellow with turmeric, but Iyers don't.
I've attended several Catholic and Protestant weddings in India - the bride in all cases wore an off-white sari with zari work and a veil on her head to the church ceremony and changed for the reception - red sari for the reception. The one Syrian Christian wedding I attended also had the bride in a white sari (not mundu).
Milli, just curious - why do you find the 9-yard sari ugly? I think it all depends on how you wear it - it can look very elegant. Of course, at most weddings that involve the 9-yard sari, there is about 10 minutes for the bride to wear that sari - and not many women know how to make that sari drape gracefully. But done right, it looks regal - especially with traditional jewellery and hair.
Also, red isn't mandatory...red is default nowadays for the most part, but there is no prohibition against other colors. I know many families where koorai saris (the 9 yard wedding sari) were any color BUT red, until a few years ago.
Bitterlemons
Shalu,
No, I haven't. Most of my friends, and myself, are serial living-in-sinners. I'm willing to plead ignorance. What element makes such weddings beautiful to you? I find the vows, the whole set-up, unpoetic.
For my wedding, I didn't mind the talking and all. I did not want any eating in the same room. So, during the ceremony, the DJ announced there were some appetizers in the other room and the whole room cleared out!! My best friend, her husband and mom were the only ones left, and she waved to me from her row. At that moment I knew she was a true friend -- willing to stand by me and not swayed by the promise of pani-puri and chaat!!
What I find beautiful about a traditional hindu wedding, is the thought put into each of the rituals. -- I personlly loved 'Kasi Yatra', which gently parodies the anxieties
(An overview can be found here and the following pages http://www.mypandit.com/mypandit/User/c_rituals3.jsp )
I guess what makes it seem more romantic than a "white wedding" to me are all the small things that are there in the rituals to make it more intimate, such as the games that are played, the oonjal for just the bride and groom, etc.
A marriage means more than just two people getting together, and the traditional rituals of all cutures try to them comprehensively.
I feel that in contrast many of the rituals in the "white wedding" have been mutilated by pop culture (which has made it into a mega event/party) and crass commercialization (such as De Beer's famous, and sucessful ploy, to make expensive diamond rings a part of the ritual), which takes away a bit of the romance.
The fact that they're over quickly. then people can go home and write poetry.
Seriously, I must ask, why such a big fuss about one single day? In matters of emotion and the heart, one rarely sees any kind of rationality coming into the picture, but this level of irrationality is surprising.
It's not as if spending more time in preparation somehow correlates to a better marriage, many Indian weddings the guests are peole who the bride and groom may only know in cursory ways (this is so and so's cousins sister brother, remember he came to our house one day, 10 years back?) Most people I speak to only watch the wedding video ONCE or TWICE at that.
I can understand being picky about when the day is, if you're into astrology and/or numerology, and having a small ritual if you see religion being any component of your shared life. But a reception where you're shaking hands 500 times in one hour, that you've nearly a year with your mind and mental energy devoted to this one single day is just plain silly. but other wise just have people come over one at a time.
Shalu,
The walk down the aisle on one's father's arm is sweet. Dunno why, but don't like the dresses - they just look stiff and uncomfortable to me. Unless they're knee length silk slips. I just prefer the implicit to the explicit (ie garments tied together), and, I guess, the drama of the circling of the fire etc. It seems more powerful than to simply say 'til death do us part'.
Again, these are not religious comments, but aesthetic ones.
To my credit, I actually do not pick fights for fun, and I said "I hate you" to Pravin as a joke :)
I think this depends on the faith tradition. In Sikhi, the actual ceremony is only ~20-25 minutes. It's all the other stuff (milni, reception) that take all day. I think rings are kind of a newer phenomena, also. My cousin had a "ring ceremony" at her wedding, which was totally bizarre to me. I think they were trying to integrate the concept of rings into a ceremony that doesn't really accommodate for that.I actually don't think there's anything more/less beautiful about desi v. American Christian weddings. What I love about weddings, broadly, is that they are a celebration of love, partnership, and the union of two families. I'm pretty cynical, but seeing two friends get married is a really special thing to be able to participate in, in my opinion.
My masiji's husband is Lutheran, and neither is particularly religious, but their families are. They had a really beautiful, small ceremony in a church (she was wearing white) that incorporated both religious traditions. They wrote their own vows and were married by an officiant in a non-religious ceremony. Honestly, I think her wedding, for me, was a model of "blended traditions" done correctly. It was super tasteful and made both his parents and her parents feel accommodated and included. They also included their families extensively in conversations about how the ceremony would unfold, but they also made it clear that it was their wedding and that this was about the parents celebrating their children's relationship, not about personal egos or attachments. I guess the point of all this is that I think it's possible and not a cop-out to merge traditions :)Yep, I know, buying an engagement ring is a complete waste of money. Seeing as how I'm currently single (and by the looks of things, will be for awhile), perhaps I can use the time to actively de-program my desire for a sparkly ring. I would say the majority of my friends, desi or not, have chosen not to get traditional engagement rings. I can't say I've really been a fan of the alternative (contemporary his-and-hers engagement rings, less expensive gemstones, necklaces and oh yes, matching tattoos). Again, my mother thinks my ring desire is nothing short of hilarious.
Milli, just curious - why do you find the 9-yard sari ugly? I think it all depends on how you wear it - it can look very elegant. Of course, at most weddings that involve the 9-yard sari, there is about 10 minutes for the bride to wear that sari - and not many women know how to make that sari drape gracefully.
Well, I am a very small person, and all that material makes me look like an uncomfortably bloated pregnant woman. It would also appear that no woman in my family is capable of dressing themselves or anyone else in a graceful manner. I definitely won't be wearing the thing for 10 mins. My parents abhor the shortened version of the Indian wedding that is so popular in the US these days. Actually, my cousin in India even had a shorter wedding (and by short, I mean 1 long day) and they were disgusted.
Oh, and as for the red -- you're right, it doesn't have to be red. Most of my female relatives wore red, but there have also been some lovely magenta and even purple numbers in there; I wasn't thinking straight last night (OK, I might have been drunk posting). There will most definitely not be a speck of white, though -- it's only a mourning color for us.
I'm hurt by something said on this thread and I want that registered...I'm late to do so, but that's only because there were just two comments when I went to sleep last night. Anyway:
The Christian wedding ceremony is far more poetic and romantic than the clumsy, explicit Hindu one. The kanjeevaram sari, or bridal gown evokes wedding far more than some lengha. The Christian ceremony is so much more graceful and eloquent than running around some fire blah blah blah. Similarly, the sacred vows and obligatory reading of that "Love is..." passage from first Corinthians is a far more powerful statement than listening to some guy babble things in a dead language no one understands...
If I had said that, I would be pilloried and for good reason.
DQ, you're one of the more sensitive souls here, I know you'll understand that I'm just trying to express that your words hurt. Desi Christians are constantly dealing with the accusation of being "inauthentic" or somehow less brown because of many things, including wearing white. It's not fair or necessary. It's one thing to state a preference, another to dismiss an entire group; to me, this is a matter of respect. I try and respect every religion we write about, I hope people would do the same to mine. :(
I know, you keep saying you're not religious and you're not trying to criticize Christianity, but vows are a very big deal to a lot of us-- and you can't separate them from our religion, at least not in my tradition(s).
a few years ago, i told my mother that i didn't plan on wearing my mangalsutra after marriage. with a severely angry look, she told me i might as well run off to vegas and elope, instead of wasting all that time and money on a hindu ceremony!
*snicker*
actually, i've been telling my mom for years that i really would like to have a family-only wedding ceremony. i find hindu weddings to be completely boring. as we all know -- nobody (except for the best of friends, apparently) pays attention to the bride and groom, everyone is chatting or walking in/out of the room, everyone is there for the food. i've been learning more and more about the ceremony -- so that i'll feel like i'm actually committing myself to something rather than just parroting whatever slokas the priest tells me -- and i'd prefer not to be distracted or on display to hundreds of people who could care less. my alternative is to have an old-timers reception, so everyone can get a free meal, and a young-timers reception, so everyone can get drunk without the disdainful gaze of all the teetotaling aunties and uncles. mom's response? "right. when hell freezes over."
By the way, I'm not belittling the programmed nature, or trivializing the difficulty in deprogramming it. I've looking for an mp3 player, and it's hard not to buy an iPod even though the creative Zens offer the same functionality.
What exactly do you mean by non-tradtional engagement rings? If you're talking this, then you're on point.
As an ABD, I am trying to organize a wedding in Chandigarh, India. Most Indian girls just pick the clothes and sit down at the mandap with their uncles and father planning everything. NOT THIS ABD!! I'm trying to have wedding favors the American way, disposable cameras on the tables for people to take candid shots, a slide show of our childhood photos, and speeches by my 4 WHITE bridesmaids (my best friends). :-) Oh and don't forget the candles!! I almost booked a Roman theme but the cost was a bit much. I can't tell you how much resistance and looks I get for incorporating these un-Hindu traditions into the ceremony. But my argument is...I grew up in US, why shouldn't we do things that incorporate both cultures?
We tried to have pre-wedding cocktail party (sort of like a rehearsal dinner without the rehearsal part) but my desi in-laws put up such a fuss that it was inauspicious to view the bride before the wedding and that all the charm of the bride would be gone, so hence I would not be invited to the cocktail but everyone else could go!! Argh...so of course we got rid of that idea and settled on the typical post-wedding day reception.
As for colors, I'm trying to get white flowers ONLY at my Hindu Punjabi wedding (keep a red backdrop) but of course it's considered UNLUCKY and MOURNFUL so people keep suggesting a multitude of colors.
What's a mangalsutra? Sorry, I'm just really ignorant when it comes to the Hindu wedding ceremony :)
HMF, that is hilarious.
Hi Anna,
Yes, you're right and so was Ennis. I should have dropped the religious references entirely. As Razib pointed out, the typical 'North American white wedding', or whatever you want to call it, probably has little relation to how Ethiopian or other Christians get married etc. The religious references were easy to hand, and I threw them out unthinkingly - a bit, I guess, like a redneck seizes on 'brown' as an easy identifier for terrorist. Reading over what you wrote, I would indeed have been indignant if I'd been on the receiving end of my comments. My tone was also not as respectful as it should have been. This may be because I tend to view wedding rituals in a detached way (hence the serial living in sin and the despair of my granny). I know others identify strongly with them, though. My apologies.
Chikki, why have the wedding in Chandigarh if you're an ABD? Is your spouse desi, or your family des-based?
We tried to have pre-wedding cocktail party (sort of like a rehearsal dinner without the rehearsal part)
Chikki - if anything, desi weddings NEED a rehearsal! Everybody wants to be front and center or else they're walking around chatting just when they're required for some obscure part of the ceremony.
HMF
Only watch once or twice...WHATEVER I still watch my engagment video inumerable times, and I'm sure I'll watch my shaadi video a lot too. I think girls have a bit more interest though. But then maybe I'm just nuts.
Milli
*sigh* That sounds like my Mom! I tell my bridesmaids that there will be no drunken reception, since the only people drinking will be the MEN in a seperate whiskey room. (Not proper for me to drink then). Will have to sneak in a flask or two to stick under my lengha. :-)
That's all I wanted you to see. :) I'm grateful that you did.
Thank you so much for your comment (so quick, too!). It means a lot to me. I just want to keep things at SM fair and kind, so more people feel like they can de-lurk...it's part of my grand strategy for spreading Sepia crack to the masses. ;)
The official permission for beginning the Kamasutra phase.
Camille ~
My fiancee' is a Desh - Born Desi. He's been in states for a while though. His fam is from Simla, my relatives are from Delhi, so Chandigarh was the compromise we made smack dab in the middle of the two cities.
Ashi ~
Tell me about it...I've already forewarned friends that there will be CHAOS in this ceremony since no one plans things out (or at least plans things out enough for my taste). I already know family will have major drama too, because when there is no rehearsal/planning, there are FIGHTS and petty arguments over "why didn't you do that" or "I told you to do that" and utter lack of delegation.
Chikki, that makes sense. Sorry, I know it's none of my business, but I was curious and appreciated your answer :)
I think one of the hardest things about ABD weddings is coordinating between des family and Umreekan family. It is just really cost-prohibitive.
I feel like this is endemic to Punjabi weddings (i.e. fights/fighting, family and otherwise) regardless of whether there's a reception :)[I say this jokingly, as an ABD Punjabi. Please no hateration on my gross over-generalization]
Not that I'm arguing with your claim (both the watching and the being nuts) but after the wedding, it seems like both men and women watch the wedding video maybe once or twice. Since no one else has thrown up arms over this claim, I think it's pretty sound.
Secondly, the fact that girls have more interest doesn't increase its rationality.
Out in Sri Lanka the Sinhalese Brides (both Buddhists and Christians) have been wearing white sarees since the turn of the century. Its kind of surprising since white is the sign of death for Buddhists (as for most of Asia).
Tamil Hindu have remained wearing red for weddings whereas the Tamil Christian brides wear white saree.
Have look at the wedding pics in http://www.manaali.com/ourwedding/
Oh, how I long for the day when the Freshman and transfer students have been oriented, and the Sophomores et al don't have to include parenthetical disclaimers for those who don't know them well enough yet to have a proper context for their comments. ;) Who could hate on you, Camille? WHO, I ask, who? :)
Haha, apparently my vehement hatred of Pravin and my hypocrisy, paired with my martyr-complex, make me easy to hate ;)
Camille ~
Not hating at all. :-) Yeah fighting is a given I suppose, argh.
HMF ~
And you have no data to support your claims either. By saying "it seems" - not very convincing. And yes it does increase it's rationality. Girls are usually (usually, not always) more keen on seeing details of weddings, decor, how they looked, etc. Anyway you were giving your opinion, as am I. :-)
I am a quick learner. Never put up a disclaimer. If I did, it would spoil the fun.
Camille, I think you're being playful and Pravin too. Or...I think Pravin is being playful, that whole "uptighty whitey", anti- salwar bit...
I hope neither one of you water it down for the sake of wanting to appear "nice". Lurking would be less fun if so.
I can't believe I'm agreeing with you for once , Hydroxymethylfurfural(HMF).Speaking of data, here's in informal questionnaire?, where at least some of the responses do corroborate what I'm saying. And anecdotally, most of the people I know rarely watch it, just because it's a serious investment of time, the video usually encompasses the entire event, which if it's boring in real life, would be much more so when on a 2-D screen.
I knowm, but it still doesn't make such behavior rational, as I said, there's no data correlating this attention to decor, etc... with marital longevity, as many implicitly claim that such attention is indicative of their commitment to the union.
"I knowm, but it still doesn't make such behavior rational, as I said, there's no data correlating this attention to decor, etc... with marital longevity, as many implicitly claim that such attention is indicative of their commitment to the union."
LOL. When did I say it was indicative of their commitment to the union?
HMF,
As an old ,married woman I really wanted to stay clear of this but I think you are being too harsh.Almost everyone who gets married enters the union expecting it to be a once in a life time event and so its actually rational that they would focus on making the day memorable. I expect no one - not even Liz Taylor - got married expecting the union to break-up and to have to go through the same ceremony again with someone else.Same reason we celebrate 16th/18th/21st/40th birthdays etc -no? because its a once ina life time shot
"...with marital longevity, as many implicitly claim that such attention is indicative..."
When did I say you did? If you read #49, I was only stating that such behavior is irrational, irrespective if "girls are more into that stuff"
HMF, this one. in fact, even some of my guy friends think it's terrible that i'm not into engagement rings - as one said, 'it's the last thing that the feminists left us with to give women - how can you take that away, too?' though, i must profess i LOVE jewelry, but i just don't feel i need to have any piece of jewelry to commemorate a particular stage in a relationship. i also don't believe in marriage, so you see how the enagagement ring is a bit of a moot point for me.
i know that red seems to be the traditional colour for hindus in general, but in the south, red does not seem to be a predominant colour for most brides - both here and back in india. i have seen all sorts of colurs (though sometimes they try to keep it within the yellow/orange/red scheme)
re bridesmaids - in our family (and in several parts of southern india) there is a concept of a bridesmaid and best man. it's less formal - just one person for the bride and the groom, who keeps them company, chats with them, and makes the whole ceremony a little more comfortable. since i'm one of the youngest girls in my family, i've played the part a few times.
camille - a mangalsutra (aka thaali) is a necklace that the groom puts on the women to signify their union - the equivalent of the wedding bands. culturally, as many have mentioned, it is sometimes used by christians, instead of or in addition to their rings. other hindus do not do the mangalsutra - i know a few punjabi aunties who wear a kangan instead.
While white complements light brown skin beautifully (pity those english and american girls slathering on the fake tanner to go bare legged in skirts), I plan to eschew white on my special day in favor of a traditional indian celebration regardless of the background of my husband... But I think all girls should be happy on that day, and I like all the choices described in the comments except for the negative ones...
ps I have a lot to do, so I am hoping that day is a long way off ;)
I think then, there's a difference in what constitutes "memorable" - and as I said, I'm not opposed to treating it differently than just an average day, but spending so much time on a single day is very irrational as it doesn't correlate to longevity at all. It makes more sense to spend time and energy on things that would actually assist in longevity.
This is slightly different, it's a time dependent thing, it's going to happen (assuming you are alive) whether you want to or not, weddings are entered into by choice (at least, they should be) But I think any excessive energy spent on these are wasted as well.
If the only argument is "once in a lifetime" I can be silly, and say, every time you open up a peanut you should throw a grand celebration. You're never going to open that peanut again, once you eat it, no one will ever see it again. It's existence and consumption will only occur once in your lifetime.
Not the only argument ,HMF. Getting married is a milestone like turning 18 etc
If you are going to approach marriage with the same seriousness as opening a peanut can , I can only say that you are in for some BIG surprises! :-)
Weddings are real community/family-wide events - that's why we fuss about them, I think. The rituals are important because they help everyone in the family start thinking of their little darling girl/boy as an actual grown-up. I'll never forget my husband's Nani hugging me with tears in her eyes and describing how she finally realized her beloved boy was a grownup with his own family when she saw us pouring ghee in the fire together. Ditto with my grandmother when she saw my husband slide a ring on my finger. The families need to see these moments, so much.
A side point about "bridesmaids and groomsmen" - they don't have to be some weird, formal concept. They are just your best friends, after all! There's lots of ways to involve them in desi weddings - for my bridesmaids, after they stood up and carried flowers in the morning at our church service, they stayed "sequestered" with me during the baraat, and then walked with me in a big pack to the mandap, together with my uncle. Groomsmen should absolutely be key driving forces in your baraat. And then once the ceremony started, the bridesmaids/groomsmen faced off over the groom's shoes, of course. Talk about hours of fun for them and everyone!
Brides wearing white started in the Victorian era, blame Queen Victoria for the custom.
Before that women just wore their best dress.
Why not go the older traditional route, of wearing your very best, no matter the color.
When I got married, I incorporated some aspects (more along the lines of a guestbook and such) rather than anything as part of the ceremony. All of my non-Indian friends were excited as I planned the wedding that it would be more traditional than westernized (although having a seating chart for the reception is probably more western too...). They were so excited that some of them even bought Indian outfits for the wedding. The one thing they commented on was how much they loved the colors of the Indian wedding....everyone at the event was beautifully dressed in every color imaginable rather than the the white/black seen at Western weddings.
Technically, I didn't even say can, I just said a single peanut. But I understand the complexity, difficulty, and social significance of marriage is much higher, than consuming a peanut, (although you ever had one of those Mr. Planters ones?)
But spending months deciding whether purple-lavender or a tiehl-sky blue napkins should go on the guest tables, doesn't add to the 'memory' of what the event should symbolize to the people involved.
ak - I hear ya about the engagement ring. I cringe when single girls go on about their carat expectations (go talk to J Lo..) It really doesn't matter what the ring looks like, it's what it represents and the fact you have one. I think it's funny how newly engaged grooms show off the ring as much as the girls -- they should! it's a big investment. My note to the girls who want the "2 months salary" ring, remember that if he goes into debt buying your ring, you BOTH will inherit that debt after the wedding.
reg the Las Vegas theme, we entertained the wedding cruise idea for a family member. She said no right away.. she doesn't want to wake up the day after her wedding and see the Kakas first thing in the a.m., and then be trapped on a boat all day with the Masis lurking around!! :-)
I knew you're a prominent resident of OppositeLand, had no idea you'd just been elected mayor.
is the dress the grl in the picture wearing normal to wear at a wedding? I think ive only seen grls in saris at wedding. really conservative saris worn like a tent.
I got married in NJ with 6 guests (closest friends) and indian traditional clothing. Personally, I think like those Indians that say wear red for auspicious events and wear white only when life is colorless. I love white, but in my wedding, I wouldnt wear it.
Puliogre in da USA, yes the girl in the picture is wearing a very normal dress for a wedding. I own two of those, and I wore one recently to a Queens wedding which was pretty normal.
a grls gotta do a lot of crunches to pull off that look me thinks. not for the faint hearted.
My first thought was to eschew the stereotypical American wedding in favor of a traditional Indian one. Upon further consideration I realized that my idea of an Hindu wedding is actually a Indian American one. The Indian American wedding is a hybrid creature. Indian-American wedding seems to borrow heavily from Bollywood fantasy weddings as well as western weddings.
A Hindu wedding in India is very different than one in the United States. Especially the reception. In India you will not see place cards, numbered tables, and elaborate table centerpieces. Most Indian-American weddings have speeches, champagne toasts, first dances, and cake cutting. I suppose some of these traditions, such as wedding cakes, are also being adopted in India now. The choreographed dance numbers by little cousins seems to be more of an Indian-American institution. Handing out a booklet explaining the wedding vows is also a very Indian-American touch. When my cousin got married in India there was a carnatic music program after the wedding rather than a wild dance Bollywood party.
The bridegroom coming on horseback and elaborate mendhi ceremonies have been adopted by many Indians, even if their parents did not get married this way. I know that many South Indians are borrowing some northern customs, such as hiding the grooms shoes and wearing lenghas at the reception.
Having grown up in NJ I can say that there are also Indian American traditions for sweet sixteen's, graduation parties, 25th wedding anniversaries, and 50th birthdays that are nothing like what you would see in India or in a mainstream American celebration. My white-American friends and their parents tend to have very simple celebrations at home, while the Indian American community have elaborately catered fetes.
I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this growing Indian-American hybrid culture. I think many Indian Americans now celebrate Raksha Bandan and Holi and go to garba, even if their parents never did. I think that many Indian-Americans who are lesser represented in the US are absorbing many Gujurati or Punjabi customs and traditions, since they the more dominant groups.
ak, I forgot to say thank you for answering my question!
Chikki, no worries, I was disclaiming for anyone unfamiliar with my posts who was going to leap down my throat for stereotyping Punjabi weddings :)
yes, HMF, i am a true path-breaker amongst the ABDs. ha ha. everybody always picks up on this point (i get a LOT of defensive comments, particularly from the married lot) but it's a viewpoint that has come after a lot of thought and observation. i believe in most things associated with marriage - commitment, trust, fidelity etc. but i just do not feel the need to have religious/social/legal sanction to justify or recognize the level of a committed relationship. i hate that most of society only recognizes marriages as the end-goal for all serious/long-term relationships. esp. with the high rate of divorce these days. i know a lot of unmarried couples who are far more committed to each other than their married counterparts. not to make this a generalization - i respect others' marriages - but it's also unfair of people to only think commitment comes in one form. of course, i am a practical person, so i realise that marriage is almost inevitable for me - my parents will never accept my partner unless we're married, and marriage is needed for legal purposes in many circumstances (esp. if children are involved). though i do hope that the legal system here eventually evolves to recognize other institutions that rival mariage in commitment and are accorded similar or equal legal privileges, as is happening in parts of europe (is this also catching on elsewhere?). though you should pay special attention to my posts, HMF - one of them might land me the nomination for president of OppositeNation!
PindaUSA - it is for some, yes. it also depends on the region. for non-south indians, i would say these days, this is a typical outfit - for the reception and/or ceremony. for south indians, even here, mostly, i have seen traditional saris for the ceremony, but a lehnga like that might show up in the reception.I definitely agree with all the comments about ridiculously-priced engagement/wedding rings that are a waste of money. Maybe I'm in the minority; but as a girl, I prefer a wedding band, in place of an engagement and wedding ring. But why do I get the sense that bands are generally worn by men? I see way more women sporting a rock than a band. What gives?
Like what? Not that I'm arguing with you, marriage serves social sanction more than anything else, religious and legal kind of follow suit from that I think.
But what are these rival 'festivus' institutions you speak of?
Until Flavor Flav! wore out his welcome on VH1, I thought he would be fun to have as a priest/minister at my wedding. And if any of the fussier relatives have an auspicious time in mind, I can always ask Flav to adjust one of his bigass clocks to keep the relative happy.
Seriously, dont want no priest at my wedding regardless of who I marry - Indian or non Indian. I cannot sit through that. She can get a priest for some pre and post marriage stuff if she wants. My buddy got married at an atrium where his buddies(including me) gave our brief speeches replacing what a priest/minister would normally do at these occasions. 10 years later. They are a nice lil couple. Oh, and 11 years later, they are divorced.
About the bridesmaids, as far as I know hindu ceremonies do not have explicit "bridesmaids" roles but the brides friends always have a huge role, getting her ready, taking her into the mandap and being with her every moment of the ceremony.