I agree with you. That Salman Khan is out having fun having run over homeless/poor people with his car and gone hunting shooting endagered species is outrageous. Sanjay Dutt seems nowhere near as bad as comparison but should get jail time but less than that.

With Lindsay Lohan's impending imprisonment dominating the news in the US these days (and the relative "justice" of Paris Hilton's sentence), I have to say that celebrities don't deserve a free pass. That said, if Sanju deserves prison then what does Bal Thakeray deserve? (I agree that 14 years of having his life in the balance and the sixteen months he's already served seem like punishment enough for having owned a gun that he never used.)

An AK-56 is not like a small fire arm. Its a weapon used in combat by armies around the world. And if he needed security he would have got it easily. His father was a Member of Parliament from the congress party and lived in a congress ruled state.

That said, if Sanju deserves prison then what does Bal Thakeray deserve?

Good question. My answer: prison also. Of course, that will never happen -- Bal Thackeray is above the law.

In the documentary, there's actually some insinuation that Sanjay Dutt might have been targeted for prosecution because his father was a prominent Congress MP -- at a time when the Shiv Sena was on the rise in Bombay. I don't know if there's any truth in that...

This was funny: the judge consoled Sanjay in the end with the thought that he could, like Gregory Peck, act till he was 100 (though Peck died when he was 87).

heres a transcript of Sanjay Dutt and Chota Shakeel (A Dawood Ibrahim aide) in another case.

http://www.mid-day.com/news/city/2002/july/27503.htm

Getting Bal Thakray will be impossible. They couldn't get Veer Savarkar (created Hindutva) in the Gandhi Murder case or Abu Bakar Bashir (spitural leader of Jamat Islamia (JI) ok he got 2 years; the bombers got death)in Bali bombing case. The ideologues or spiritual leaders who inspire others to commit madness have always got of easily throughout history. Take for instance all the communist ideologues Marx and Lenin who created an ideology that lead to millions of deaths and untold misery world wide din't get any punishment for their roles.

While I can understand why people are sympathetic to him and I'm not gloating that he was sentenced, I do think that for once, justice has been served. I don't think any special consideration was given to Sanjay Dutt because of his status - just the way it should be. Also, there were many others who were accused and convicted - the difference being they were not as rich or famous as Sanjay Dutt. A similar case could be made for them too that they were coerced, or have repented, or their economic situation caused them to do what they did etc. If I have a bleeding heart, it should bleed the same for all people.....

He has already served a few months, and with good behavior, will probably be out in 3-4 years. From some of the interviews I've seen, he comes across as very humble, down-to-earth and caring. I hope he has the strength to overcome this ordeal.

I fully agree that the current Indian law system needs a revamp, and yes, Bal Thackrey (and others like Salman Khan) should also be prosecuted for their crimes. But, those are for another topic and another discussion.

I thought that Salman's hit and run case was still being tried? Was a verdict already delivered?

I feel badly for Sanjay too but once he gets bail (which I am assuming he will) and appeals, there may be quite some time before he actually serves his sentence. Compared to what some of his associates got in this case, he did pretty well. And at least he got bail and didn't have to spend 14 years in prison awaiting trial!

And I thought he was accused of storing a huge cache of weapons material as well. Not just a few rifles. Was that charge dropped?

I think six years was too harsh. As pointed out, the sixteen months in jail and the following fourteen years were already bad enough. Hopefully the Supreme Court will come to his rescue. But then, the possession of an AK-56 is not a small crime in itself.

All these so called fans of Sanjay Dutt.. get a life! The guy is a criminal. He was in with hardcore terrorists and helped them carry out the shocking Mumbai blasts which killed hundreds of people! How can you even say that he should be given special consideration and be allowed some other/lesser punishment. Just because he is a star? So what? Stars are made by the public.. there will be more tomorrow? Why shouldn't a terrorist who is not a star be subject to such sympathies from you? I read on one of the blogs people justifying their viewpoints with the argument that punishing him isn't going to bring the dead back... I am aghast at such statements.. Take a moment to reflect upon what the people attached to those dead have gone through. I am all for punishments which make a better person out o the wrong-doer but then these need to be common for all and not as an exception for stars. And these sort of corretive punishments need to start off with smaller crimes.. not from a person who keeps AK-47s in his house. Get a life I repeat!

That said, if Sanju deserves prison then what does Bal Thakeray deserve?

Good question. My answer: prison also. Of course, that will never happen -- Bal Thackeray is above the law.

From the frontline article:

Justice Srikrishna's understanding of Thackeray's role in the riots emerges from his rejection of the belief that the second phase of rioting in Mumbai, from January 8, 1993, was some form of spontaneous Hindu reaction to violence by Muslims. "There is no doubt," the report records, "that the Shiv Sena and Shiv Sainiks took the lead in organising attacks on Muslims and their properties under the guidance of several leaders of the Shiv Sena from the level of Shakha Pramukh to the Shiv Sena Pramukh Bal Thackeray who, like a veteran General, commanded his loyal Shiv Sainiks to retaliate by organised attacks against Muslims." One important medium for disseminating the senapati's commands were Saamna and Navakal, publications that Justice Srikrishna found had carried "communally inciting propaganda", a criminal offence. On January 1, 1993, Saamna carried an article entitled 'Hindunni Akramak Vhayala Have' (Hindus must also become aggressive now). Later, exaggerated and lurid accounts of the Radhabai Chawl and Mathadi workers' killings helped fuel Hindu aggression.

VIVEK BENDRE
Thackeray has been indicted by the Srikrishna Commission Report for directing a programme of violence against Muslims in Mumbai in December 1992-January 1993.

Discussion of the evidence before the Commission, contained in Volume II of the Report, contains interesting insights into Thackeray's role in the riots. Most important is the evidence of Mahanagar journalist Yuvraj Mohite, whose eyewitness account of a meeting between Thackeray and Mumbai Mayor Chandrakant Handore the Commission accepted as true. Mohite is cited as hearing conversations between the Sena chief and his subordinates from which "it was clear that Thackeray was directing the Shiv Sainiks, Shakha Pramukhs and other activists of Shiv Sena to attack the Muslims, to ensure that they give tit for tat and ensure that 'not a single landya (circumcised person) would survive to give oral evidence'." Similar orders were given to party leaders Ramesh More and Sarpotdar. Mohite also heard Thackeray tell someone to send Additional Commissioner of Police A.A. Khan "to Allah's home". The thrust of Mohite's testimony was borne out by that of Time magazine journalist Anita Pratap, who had interviewed Thackeray on the riots. In the interview, published under the caption "Kick them out - No compromise with Muslims: the rhetoric of hatred from Shiv Sena's Bal Thackeray", the Shiv Sena supremo justified violence against Muslims, and advocated forcing them to leave India for Pakistan. Although Anita Pratap could not produce a tape of the interview, Justice Srikrishna found circumstantial evidence adequate to believe her account.

I don't think there is any evidence to prosecute Bal thackeray. Saying "Hindus must also become aggressive now" is not a valid reason to prosecute, I believe. :-) The other evidence is all about he said / she said.. I think we need to protect "hate speech" too. One only needs to read Quran to find the hatred it has against polytheists / idolators and I think Bal thackeray has every right to refute it..

today I feel bad for Sanju. The Bollywood actor who should really be in jail is probably Salman Khan: Sanjay Dutt may have been a bad boy, but at least he never killed anyone, eh? (Ok, allegedly killed anyone.)

Maybe Sanju Baba can run over a bare chested Sallu as part of his community service? Everybody wins.

I don't think there is any evidence to prosecute Bal thackeray.

I do -- incitement to violence, for one. And India has a law in the constitution about hurting the sentiments of religious communities. It's not a great law, but it applies in this case.

You may want to protect hate speech, but the current Indian legal system does not.

"For one thing, as a film star (and as the son of two very famous actors), his family was a target for the criminal underworld; I’m sure he wasn’t the only one to have these kinds of weapons in his possession at the time. Secondly, as of 1992/3, the Dutts were also apparently getting regular death threats from communalists"

If the Dutts were afraid of death threats, is an AK-47 the weapon one would normally use for self-defense? Amardeep, I am not sure if SD's defense attorney has even used this far-fetched argument. He was GIVEN the AK-47 for safekeeping. He did not acquire it for any reason, neither self-defense, nor terrorist plots.

What brought the conviction was not the possession of the weapon, which was regarded as a lesser offense, but the simple truth that, after being identified as an accessory to the crime, he destroyed the evidence by getting the gun chopped into pieces. I was reminded of Nixon's culpability in Watergate. It wasn't the crime but the cover-up.

In a broader sense, what is reassuring about this verdict is that India works. The fine points of law are usually considered above the comprehension of Third World countries. But the sophistication of the Indian judiciary makes one believe that this country can not only grow at a double digit rate but has the sophistication to use the economic growth to create a fairer, healthier, happier nation.
From Delhi, SM commenter, Floridian

I do -- incitement to violence, for one. And India has a law in the constitution about hurting the sentiments of religious communities. It's not a great law, but it applies in this case.

true, But asking the Hindus to be aggressive can not be termed as hurting the sentiments of any religious community, unless a "meek" Hindu comes up and files a suit claiming that Thackeray has hurt his belief. :-)

You may want to protect hate speech, but the current Indian legal system does not.

true, But asking the Hindus to be aggressive can not be termed as hurting the sentiments of any religious community, unless a "meek" Hindu comes up and files a suit claiming that Thackeray has hurt his belief. :-)

Ponniyin, come now -- what would have been printed in 'Navakal' and 'Saamna' in December 1992 was much more than that. They weren't just talking about taking Viagra, they were talking about kicking Muslims out of Bombay and out of India.

I was listening to NPR this morning and the correspondent made the point that Sanjay Dutt has already served 17 months in jail. Thats enough time served for an illegal possession of a firearm.

Sanjay Dutt did the right thing in purchasing the ak-47 with Shiv Sainkin thugs running around destroying property at will.

And I thought he was accused of storing a huge cache of weapons material as well. Not just a few rifles. Was that charge dropped?

btw abhinav, the reason he was hoping for probation is because the court declared he is not a terrorist - i.e. the charges under TADA were dropped, and the only ones that remained were for firearms possession. i don't think a terrorist would be sentenced to just 6 years - i'm pretty sure the others sentenced under TADA got much longer sentences

was it really that hard to acquire a AK-56 in India, from a source other than terrorist-affiliated black markets? I mean, was it not whom he bought it from the reason he was pulled into a case involving TADA?

In SL, if people started to feel insecure, they hired local rowdies/thugs to serve as a security detail. Was that not possible in Mumbai? Or did he hold some romantic notion of blasting away with both hands, while protecting his family from SS thugs?

DNA has an interesting perspective on SD's possession of the AK-56 - the americans did it! (sort of...)

Yay, Floridian is baaaaaaaaack! How did keeping your

Belated happy 35th! Did the shaadi waalah bands rock the tiny taon of Gurgaon, AK-47s going dichkaon-dichkaon - into the air in celebration, of course? (yes, I am trying to a desi poet revolutionary).

How did keeping your nose buried in Eliot work out, while flying with, er, my auntie, to India?

One only needs to read Quran to find the hatred it has against polytheists / idolators and I think Bal thackeray has every right to refute it..

Lets aim at being more respectful and try to adopt a more nuanced approach to sensitive issues. (Gingering our English with definite articles would be welcome as well).

Ponniyin, come now -- what would have been printed in 'Navakal' and 'Saamna' in December 1992 was much more than that. They weren't just talking about taking Viagra, they were talking about kicking Muslims out of Bombay and out of India.

Amardeep,

From the "frontline" article ON what Sreekrishna commission reported, it doesn't seem much.. As I said earlier, it was not a valid evidence and just he said / she said. As noted in the article, Anita pratap could not produce any tape of the conversation..

Read this yesterday and it sort of made me sad. It's not because he's a star but he is a humble man who's done a lot of charity in India along with the Nargis Dutt Foundation. He's served time already, a significant time and should be left alone.

I didn't realize it was such a huge deal for a movie star in desh to have AK47? Every thug in the northern states that's any politician's son carries weapons and doesn't think twice about gunning down people. He did nothing with his gun.

I feel sad because he hasn't had a normal life, perhaps a semicharmed kind of life because of who he is but he's never found stability or happiness and obviously that means nothing in the grand scheme of things to this sentence that's the first thing that came to mind.

As for the sentence India's justice system is shit in my eyes so I'm not surprised.

Amardeep, If incitement to violence is grounds enough for arrest, shouldn't you have advocated the arrest of the entire Akal Takht a couple of months back?

In the documentary, there's actually some insinuation that Sanjay Dutt might have been targeted for prosecution because his father was a prominent Congress MP -- at a time when the Shiv Sena was on the rise in Bombay. I don't know if there's any truth in that...

Sanjay Dutt did the right thing in purchasing the ak-47 with Shiv Sainkin thugs running around destroying property at will.

The alleged reason is the internal politics between Sharad Pawar and Sunil Dutt. The Dutts had nothing to fear from the Sena. Bal Thackeray was one of Sanjay Dutt's strongest supporters atleast at that point in time and had played a key role in getting him out of jail the first time. But that was then.

I love the distinction between 'imprisonment' and 'vigerous imprisonment'. Is that the difference between just sitting in jail, and getting b*ggered 10 times a day?

Phantom, if they were saying, "go out and gun these people down," I would certainly want them arrested. My focus in the earlier post was on understanding the Dera Sacha Sauda organization and the beliefs and constituency of its followers. It was an exploratory post, that did not call for much of anything.

Keep in mind that when the Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal, and the radical Imams in Bombay incited people to violence, 900+ people died in riots. What happened this spring with DSS is not on that scale.

PindaUSA, I think rigorous (not vigorous :-) imprisonment involves such things as breaking stones. I might be wrong, though.

I don't know what to make of this entire episode. Clearly, he was involved with these gangsters/terrorists in sketchy ways, but I don't know what the extent of his prior inklings (I don't use the work knowledge) about the bomb blasts were, given that there have been tapped conversations showing he was clearly good buddies with Chhota Shakeel and so on. JOAT, the fact that others have weapons and are roaming scot free does not mean that Sanjay Dutt should not be brought to justice. This is like the argument against the Iraq war that Saddam was just one of many evil dictators, and so there was no reason to displace him for his tyranny (there are many other good arguments against the war, I just disagree with this rationale).

Ponniyin Selvan, we can clutch at straws all we want, but I think if somebody had the political will to drag Bal Thackeray to prison, as I think he deserves, all the evidence that is necessary can be produced. And when multiple people say the same thing, and it comes down to a game of "he-and-she said, he-said", the second "he"'s position starts looking much shakier, especially in the context of all the prior behavior.

Floridian, do you really believe that you can take some global positive about the Indian judiciary from this? There just seems to be a ridiculous amount of variance, without any good standardization or effective enforcement (for example, judges who let rapists and child-rapists go scot-free because they are sole bread-winners, Supreme Court judges hauling Arundathi Roy into court for contempt because she had the temerity to mock them in the press, the fact that a gazillion other politicians walk around with impunity, and so on). Personally, I've always felt that a muscular and solid judicial system (some assurance of due process within a reasonable amount of time) is the one fundamental pillar of democracy that is shaky in India (apart from the dual poor infrastructures of primary education and healthcare)

Keep in mind that when the Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal, and the radical Imams in Bombay incited people to violence, 900+ people died in riots.

Amardeep: Where did you hear about radical imams inciting people to death? They might have but I would like to see the evidence.

Al-C,

Try this link, and skip down to 'Acts of Muslim Aggression'. It is a detailed summary of the findings of the Srikrishna Commission. Elsewhere on the same page, you can also read about the 'ISI Bogey' and anti-minority bias amongst the Bombay police...

All this outpouring of sympathy for sanju makes me feel good to be human. NOT. Two bl00dy Munnabhai movies, and everyone thinks he is so sweet and humble. And he did some charity? So what?

I think he has deliberately cultivated this image of being a nice humble guy over the last 5-6 years, because he knew he wasn't scott free and still had the verdict hanging over him. And the whole "need AK-47s for protection" theory is bullcrap. If you go through the actual case at the time it happened, he was given some weapons (don't remember now if it was a cache but it wasn't a single AK for sure). He was elbows deep in shit with Shakeel company, and White Feather Films (his chum Sanjay Gupta's production) is axctively funded by the gangsters. He was lucky to have gotten off on the TADA case, not because he didn't do anything, but because it is highly unlikely that he didn't know (conjecture on my part, I confess) anything about the bombs. These gangsters are not super trained CIA/RAW etc. Everyone likes to brag and there had to be people with a loose tongue looking for bragging rights.

Sunil Dutt had a lot of goodwill because of his work as an MP and it would be foolhardy on any goons part to attack the Dutts. Politician and Movie Star? No sane politician in the Sena or any of the other cadres would encourage that shit. There are no gains to be had. Sunil Dutt's explanation to the people and the courts in the original hearing for Sanju baba - "Bachcha hai, naadaan hai" (He is a child, guileless). This when baba was 35.

As for bare-chested Khan, he has signed on to play Lord Ram in Santoshi's Ramayana adaptation. So when his verdict comes up, everyone can rest assured, the usual sympathy will pour in.

Amardeep,
I am going to have to disagree with you on almost everything except the fact that Bal Thackeray should also have been jailed long ago.

- An AK-47 is an assault weapon and whatever the provocation,Sanjay Dutt had no business having those weapons at home. As for your comment about general lawlessness in Bombay- if ture- , all that the Dutts had to do was demand police protection and they would have had it( regularly provides for VIPS) .

- I was in Bombay then - do you think the law would have given me a pass if I had purchased a weapon to protect my family,knowing that no way would I "qualify" for police protection?
-Since when has pulling out the examples of others who should also be jailed a valid defence? Yes,I hope they lock Salman Khan away for many ,many years but that is no excuse for not jailing Sanjay D
- Sanjay Dutt ,Salman ,Sanjay Nanda ( BMW case),Manu Sharma ( Jessica Lall Murder) and many others are all products of the "baba log" syndrome.Rich, pampered existences that make them feel that they are above the law.In Sanjay Dutt's case- though I have the utmost respect for his late father- Sunil Dutt exacerbated the situation by constantly bailing him out whenever he was in trouble and never letting him take responsibility for his actions- excusing every infraction with the "he's a child" explanation.For God's sake ,he was a young man when all this happened!

Sorry for the long post but this hit a sore spot.The judicial system in India is regularly pilloried for letting criminal go scott-free. Once in a while justice is served and again the system is pilloried for being too harsh. What will satisfy you ?

JOAT-Read this yesterday and it sort of made me sad. It's not because he's a star but he is a humble man who's done a lot of charity in India along with the Nargis Dutt Foundation. He's served time already, a significant time and should be left alone.

---So you mean just because he supports charity, the legal system should throw away the law and take into account his humble nature and not statutes? Yes he has served his sentence but that was not for possession of the firearms. That was entirely different trial under TADA.

I didn't realize it was such a huge deal for a movie star in desh to have AK47? Every thug in the northern states that's any politician's son carries weapons and doesn't think twice about gunning down people. He did nothing with his gun.

So you mean you are under the impression that movie stars in India can do what ever they want? Carry illegal weapons? I am sorry to tell you that that is not what happens in India. And because some goons carry weapons and kill people, that does not give anybody any right to do the same! It's like saying, I committed a crime but look he committed a bigger one so go after him and not me. This statement is not going to stand in a court of law in ANY country.

I feel sad because he hasn't had a normal life, perhaps a semicharmed kind of life because of who he is but he's never found stability or happiness and obviously that means nothing in the grand scheme of things to this sentence that's the first thing that came to mind.

You are right about that and if you know anything about law in any country, you should know that emotions don't play a part in it.

As for the sentence India's justice system is shit in my eyes so I'm not surprised.

Its a very shallow statement and I don't know if you have a personal incident that triggered it or if it is just bollywood movies but I LIVE in India and practice law in Mumbai and have seen justice being served in countless number of cases. There are negative aspects in the US system or any other legal system as well and I have countless incidences to talk about!

Sanjay got what he deserved. I am curious are all those who favor acquitting Sanjay also in favor of acquitting Afzal.
Ponniyin, I would presume you think Afzal is also innocent.

Try this link, and skip down to 'Acts of Muslim Aggression'. It is a detailed summary of the findings of the Srikrishna Commission. Elsewhere on the same page, you can also read about the 'ISI Bogey' and anti-minority bias amongst the Bombay police...

Amardeep: Thanks for the link. I didnt see any mention of Imams. There is this one line 'also calls given on loudspeakers fixed on Masjids urging Muslims to come out in large numbers with arms and attack ‘Kafirs’. which may or may not have been supported by the Imams. In fact Imams are not mentioned anywhere in the document.

I was not comfortable with your initial characterization of riots where you implicitly placed equal blame on the Shiv Sainkins and the Imams. Here is a quote from the report:

“As far as the December 1992 phase of the rioting by the Muslims is concerned, there is no material to show that it was anything other than a spontaneous reaction of leaderless and incensed Muslim mobs, which commenced as peaceful protest, but soon degenerated into riots. The Hindus must share a part of the blame in provoking the Muslims by their celebration rallies, inciting slogans and rasta rokos which were all organised mostly by Shiv Sainiks, and to a marginal extent by BJP activists.

For the January round of violence, the Shiv Sena has been held squarely to blame. Turning to the events of January 1993, the Commission’s view is that though several incidents of violence took place during the period from 15th December 1992 to 5th January 1993, large–scale rioting and violence was commenced from 6th January 1993 by the Hindus, brought to fever pitch by communally inciting propaganda unleashed by Hindu communal organisations and writings in newspapers like Saamna and Navaakal.

Ponniyin, I would presume you think Afzal is also innocent.

Huh??.. Have you mistaken me for someone else?. I'm the only one who supports Bal thackeray here.. the only "Hindutvadi" now .. :-)

As for the sentence India's justice system is shit in my eyes so I'm not surprised.

Its a very shallow statement and I don't know if you have a personal incident that triggered it or if it is just bollywood movies but I LIVE in India and practice law in Mumbai and have seen justice being served in countless number of cases. There are negative aspects in the US system or any other legal system as well and I have countless incidences to talk about!

Indian legal system is not in the same league as the US legal system. Almost all judges at state level and below in India are corrupt and there is corruption at every level. You have to bribe the person who serves process, then you bribe the court clerk, the bailiff and then the judge. Its a well known fact. The Courts are usually battlegrounds for who can pay a higher bribe. The Courts are so backed up that if they stopped taking cases it would still take hundreds of years to take care of the already filed cases. A simple eviction can take upto two decades.

I messed up the italics in the last post.

As for the sentence India's justice system is shit in my eyes so I'm not surprised

Can we please hold off on the generic "this is shit" "that is shit" in India observations? Makes my blood boil ..yes ,the Indian judicial system is full of corruption but to come out with a statement like this in connection with a post on one case where evidently money and fame did NOT result in a light sentence is bizarre.

For those feeling sympathy for Sanju baba , that sympathy is better directed towards the thousands of undertrials languishing in jails and the many actually innocent who are awaiting trial.

---Indian legal system is not in the same league as the US legal system. Almost all judges at state level and below in India are corrupt and there is corruption at every level. You have to bribe the person who serves process, then you bribe the court clerk, the bailiff and then the judge. Its a well known fact. The Courts are usually battlegrounds for who can pay a higher bribe. The Courts are so backed up that if they stopped taking cases it would still take hundreds of years to take care of the already filed cases. A simple eviction can take upto two decades.

WRONG! In my 10 year career as an advocate in Mumbai, I have never bribed anyone. I don't know about you, I am speaking from personal experience. You are right about the courts being backed up bu the main reason for that is the population. I don't need to tell you the difference in population between India dn the US.....but I can guarantee you that if there were equal number of people living in the US, along with the jury system, the US courts will be backlogged as well!!

WRONG! In my 10 year career as an advocate in Mumbai, I have never bribed anyone. I don't know about you, I am speaking from personal experience. You are right about the courts being backed up bu the main reason for that is the population. I don't need to tell you the difference in population between India dn the US.....but I can guarantee you that if there were equal number of people living in the US, along with the jury system, the US courts will be backlogged as well!!

The US population is 300 million compared to India's 1.1 billion. Population is not the reason.

As for corruption, maybe you do corporate law or something where the corruption is not as pervasive. I am surprised that you never had to bribe a clerk or a bailiff. Are you sure about that?

You know what- I am sorry that you have had bad experiences in life that you absolutely refuse to believe that one can live a good, moral life in today's world. Yes-I am very sure I have never given bribes. I have been asked a couple of times by the clerks but I just ignored it and still got my work done. I am very sure that the clerk was scared of my confidence. The person who asks for a bribe knows that he is doing something illegal and can only push to a certain extent and if you are confident and determined, they have to give up.

leaderless and incensed Muslim mobs,

Leaderless and incensed Muslim mobs had no business attacking innocent local people (Hindus in this case) in Mumbai for events that took place in a distant part of India.

Also, imams may not have had an equal role to Shiv Sainiks in the riots, but that's just due to the demographics of the city...if they were in larger numbers, and more confident of success, they would have had a larger role.

Regarding corruption in India, I have often heard the complaints mostly from people who have paid the bribes, that everything in India runs on corruption. (topic has mostly been drivers' licenses). I got my driver's license, passport, recently passport extension and most of the govt. work done through the straight way by standing in lines, waiting for a day or two etc.. And it works.. You should have patience and not expect any respect/courtesy from the govt. officials, but otherwise everything is Ok. If you pay money, you can skip the lines, forget a few documents etc.. but it doesn't hurt if you have everything ready and is willing to stand in line for a few hours..

The US population is 300 million compared to India's 1.1 billion. Population is not the reason.

Population is definitely a factor, but not the only one. The "efficiency" of justice systems is a function of many interconnected factors, such as level of economic development . Development is generally correlated with increasing government 'infrastructural' power or the ability of the state to implement its decisions in society. This in turn presupposes certain prerequisites such as governments' ability to track its population etc. (the Indian government is far weaker vis-a-vis its population than the U.S. government). Increasing economic development combined with relatively equitable distribution also reduces the incentives on the part of court functionaries to use their position to make money (and become more 'legal rational', as it were). So when all these other factors interact with India's huge population, the implications for the justice system is not difficult to predict. In fact it is surprising that it continues to function relatively well and justice is not totally marketized (i.e. goes to the highest bidder, as happens in every system to a greater or lesser extent).

I think there's a class bias against Sanjay Dutt, whose family is from a upper class background and people like the Dutts were always resented by the Mumbai middle class.
Also, does this remind anyone of the Sinatra-Mob links and the sensation they caused?
Sanjay Dutt is a scapegoat, and the fact that he got involved with the underworld of Bombay for no apparent gain shows naivete on his part, not collusion with terrorists. On a side note, I met him randomly in a bar in the US and we chatted for hours, like 2 ordinary people. He is very humble and down to earth and sweet. (okay I have a crush on him)

As for corruption, maybe you do corporate law or something where the corruption is not as pervasive. I am surprised that you never had to bribe a clerk or a bailiff. Are you sure about that?

JOAT, don't be too rough on the system - it surprises in many ways. while i wasn't surprised to hear manu sharma was acquitted, i was surprised when the acquittal was overturned (and kalam later refused to confirm the judge who acquitted to the supreme court).

Oh I also wanted to add that people like Thackrey, Modi, Sajjan Kumar, H.K.L. Bhagat have no place in a civilized society (in fact are a blot to humanity, and are specimens, along with the activists of NASDP of all that is bad with certain kinds of mass politics)

FREE SANJAY!!!

About the justice system in India, I am completely with Runa on this one, there is no need to go India bashing just yet. After all this is a positive where a film star irrespective of his status has been sentenced to six years RI. Someone in my immediate family was brutally murdered at a high end hotel in mid 90s, the accused were of high social status and played every trick in the book, including countless adjournments, hiring the best lawyers, trying to bribe their way etc. They were caught within three days of the incident and they were all convicted on all counts irrespective of their status and the sentencing is scheduled for later this year.
The system may not be perfect but there are definitely things that are working.

Huh??.. Have you mistaken me for someone else?. I'm the only one who supports Bal thackeray here.. the only "Hindutvadi" now .. :-)

Looks like I mistook you for someone standing for quality of evidence :)

I think we just exceeded some kind of limit (size/number of characters, most likely) in some buffer on the dating post page. My firefox and IE on Windows XP both refuse to load that page.

I think we just exceeded some kind of limit (size/number of characters, most likely) in some buffer on the dating post page. My firefox and IE on Windows XP both refuse to load that page.

same here....dammit. now i need to do work...

same here....dammit. now i need to do work...

Also, imams may not have had an equal role to Shiv Sainiks in the riots, but that's just due to the demographics of the city...if they were in larger numbers, and more confident of success, they would have had a larger role.

There are enough Muslim Imams in Bombay to raise hell. There are thousands of imams in Bombay and they could have certainly incited people.

Its interesting that you believe that the imams may not have played an equal role considering the fact that there is NO EVIDENCE to suggest that the Imams played a role which was similar to role played by the Shiv Sainiks at any level.

As to your reckless speculation here 'if they were in larger numbers, and more confident of success, they would have had a larger role', I am sure you have some insight into the minds of the thousands of Bombay Imams which the rest of us are not in privity to.

I saw you picking holes in evidence against Thackery, but let's admit there are bigger holes in evidence against Afzal. Why aren't people invoking the victim of circumstances defense in his case. Looks like I mistook you for someone standing for quality of evidence :)

ROFL.. :-) .

It is not my fulltime job to pick holes in the evidence either for/against someone. I just read the "Frontline" article and realised that there is nothing much against Bal Thackeray (atleast from what is mentioned in a "certainly" anti-Bal Thackeray article)

Meh...India will pull a Paris Hilton and have him out in days. =)

There are enough Muslim Imams in Bombay to raise hell. There are thousands of imams in Bombay and they could have certainly incited people.

Are you attributing this restraint to calmness, maturity and love of communal harmony, or maybe simply logisitics and choosing a course which was a better strategy for their community? I don't have any special insights into the inner minds of the imams...just a deep distrust of their motives, politics, and ideology. Just as I do for the Shiv Sena.

Suketu Mehta's chapter on Sanjay Dutt is worth reading. He is a troubled soul dogged by misfortune. He has acted foolishly on many occasions, but always paid far bigger price than most.

I think there's a class bias against Sanjay Dutt, whose family is from a upper class background and people like the Dutts were always resented by the Mumbai middle class.

Shodan,

You are right about Sunil Dutt's goodwill, his daughter got elected after his demise from the same constituency. There was some talk of Sunjay contesting the election, but was shot down in the favor of you the younger sister.

In fact Dutt seniors were the reason people tolerated Sanjubaba's foolishness for so long.

I meant the Shiv Sena sympathizers who make up the lower and middle class of Bombay and hold lots of official positions. They're traditionalists who are not impressed by movie stars. I wouldn't expect them to respect an inter-religious, liberal couple like the Dutts.

moni,

Like Shodan mentioned, one of Sunjay Dutt's biggest supporters was Bala Saheb. I am not sure if you know any of the "middle and lower class bombayites" but Sunil Dutt had overwhelming support in Bombay.

Then why is he being scapegoated? I still think there's class-ism involved, with Sanjay representing the Westernized upper classes.

Then why is he being scapegoated? I still think there's class-ism involved, with Sanjay representing the Westernized upper classes.

westernized indians never seemed very westernized to me....

The Hindu put out an editorial commending the fact that there were no special favors shown to Dutt. Although I dont know much about the case, apparently, the weapon(s) given to Dutt by Dawood Ibrahim's associates were not meant for self defense.

http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/01/stories/2007080151111200.htm

Moni,

See Runa in 34, and I am really not sure I understand your argument for a class bias. Congress is in Power in Maharshtra right now not Shiv Sena even though Shiv Sena supported Sunjay. Sharad Pawar had a beef with Sunil Dutt and he left congress a while back. Sunjay's sister is an MP from their dad's constituency. I am not sure what classes are persecuting Sanjay for being a representation of westernized Indians.

Moni,

For more see the link Samir has linked to in no. 6, Sanjay Dutt for the transcript of phone conversations between Sanjay and Chota Shakeel.

Are you attributing this restraint to calmness, maturity and love of communal harmony, or maybe simply logisitics and choosing a course which was a better strategy for their community?

Yes, I am. I have no reason to believe that the random Imam in Bombay wants to incite people to kill.

I don't have any special insights into the inner minds of the imams...just a deep distrust of their motives, politics, and ideology. Just as I do for the Shiv Sena.

So you believe that all Imams in the millions of mosques around the World (there are over 100,000 imams in India itself) are as suspect as the fascist Shiv Sainiks. You obviously have a deep mistrust of Muslims and their institutions.

Amardeep - "Keep in mind that when the Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal, and the radical Imams in Bombay incited people to violence, 900+ people died in riots. What happened this spring with DSS is not on that scale."

Next time, following the Dera Sacha Sauda'a assertion of their fundamental right, if the Akal Takht instigates violence, which results in bloodshed, I hope you will advocate legal action against the Granthis.
God knows they deserve more.

Amitabh: Please email me at Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery@yahoo.com
I want to email you something.

ACD,

Not to deny Shiv Sena has strong fascist tendencies.

Also, not to paint all Imams as hate mongers, not at all.

However, some Imams in India have openly played role of "instigators" from time to time. Even Shah Imam Bukhari in his day have had acted as a demogogue. All this goes back to Direct Action Day, and the politics of religion in India from early 20th century. I hope you keep all this in mind and context.

In west, UK, and even NYC, have Imams that are openly calling for violent jihad.

Now coming to Mumbai, we talked about it few months ago, it is true Shiv Sena was itching for a fight, but the December riots started from a mosque in response to a babri masjid victory march by Sena (sure victory march was chest thumping that should have not happened but India is free country), and as early as January, they were huge shipments of weapons to Mumbai by Mumbai mafia for a complete show down. Thank god, it never happened. I think I had a Thelekha link for the story.

As I said earlier, a fascist organization belong to majority (be it Hindus in India or any place in the world) will always have an upper hand in a showdown with the minority.

In the politics of hate, a less grey for that incident is not a saint or saintly.

I still think there's class-ism involved, with Sanjay representing the Westernized upper classes

, I met him randomly in a bar in the US and we chatted for hours, like 2 ordinary people.

Anger at the Indian judicial system is justified at times - but you would do better directing that anger towards cases where the innocent are punished.(Unfortunately, you are not likely to meet them randomly in a bar). No justification for anger at this case where someone who is guilty has been tried and sentenced.

However, some Imams in India have openly played role of "instigators" from time to time. Even Shah Imam Bukhari in his day have had acted as a demogogue. All this goes back to Direct Action Day, and the politics of religion in India from early 20th century. I hope you keep all this in mind and context.

I dont disagree with anything you are saying. I would also agree with you on 'Direct Action Day' though I am not sure if the Imams had anything to do with it. I am not suggesting that the Imams in India are all little MLKs. However by and large the Imams are not inciting violence against the majority community in India and so to be presumptively suspicious of imams in my mind is unwarranted.

In west, UK, and even NYC, have Imams that are openly calling for violent jihad.

Thats mostly true for some imams especially in the UK.

As I said earlier, a fascist organization belong to majority (be it Hindus in India or any place in the world) will always have an upper hand in a showdown with the minority.

Very well put. I agree completely. Between, have you seen the movie 'Final Solution' by Rakesh Sharma and what do you think about it?

Between, have you seen the movie 'Final Solution' by Rakesh Sharma and what do you think about it?

I bought that movie for 50 dollars. It made me laugh at the rhetoric by fanatics and almost cry at the consequences. The scene by the school boy is touching.

I find/ found the hindu fascists sickening. I also agree that an extremist organization belonging to the majority population has a potentially bottomless source of supporters, and collaborators (police and all). But I am not going soft peddle (or do kutchi, kutchi) to the same team belonging to the minorities.

But I think the "politics of hate" in India has a long history - in that history, direct action day stands as a singular point even it was not immam induced - with upwards of tens of thousands (more than 50,000-60,000 in Bengal itself) killed in few days. The same thing happened during the time around direct action day period, muslim league ruled governments (at that time even India was British ruled, at the state and local level, congress, muslim league and other parties had power sharing arrangements as per elections) would make sure police looked the other way while the massacres went on. Another classic (somewhat different though) case is Punjab in early 80s - people would pulled down the buses and killed, editors shot in broad daylight - the the local and state government was shit scared to do anything against Brindanwalla and his ilk.

No team deserves kutchi, kutchi.

I agree that in general immams in India are not calling for hatred.

westernized indians never seemed very westernized to me....

Yaar, give them some latitude.

westernized indians never seemed very westernized to me....

Have you even ever met them?......the likes of Nawab of Patuadi, Nirad C. Chaudhari, S. Chandrashekar, Satyajit Ray, Imran Khan (a Pakistani though), Zaheer Abbas (another Pakistani cricketer, very Brit in his demeanor) the entire Nehru family starting from Motilal Nehru.

I seriously doubt that. I also doubt you even know about the names I mentioned above, who they were or are.

Just to add to what kush said, Jawaharlal could easily "out english" any englishman you could ever meet (same with nirad babu).

Let me add to the list of westernized Indians* - MA Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan

When he gave a speech on August, 14, 1947, it was Urdu written in English. He was so anglizied that "Pakistan Zindabad" sounded "Pakistan is in the bag" on the radio broadcast.

Rajiv Gandhi or even Indira Gandhi spoke hindi very hesitantly early in their political career.

* MA Jinnah was once an Indian, and in fact, in his heart, he wanted to settle in Bombay after 1947, and never sold his house.

Blanket statements on India? Hawtt.

Thanks Runa, Kush, Sigh! for sanity check.

Kush, I'm surprised to see Satyajit Ray in the list of western Indians. Is that on the basis of speaking fluent English? Other than that, I can't really think of any other characteristics that would place him in that category...

Yeah, I too was kinda surprised with roy in the list (he actually considered himself pretty cosmopolitan); actually people like roy (and even tagore) did not think that there was any contradiction between being "indian", "westernized" and "citizens of the world".

Kush, I'm surprised to see Satyajit Ray in the list of western Indians. Is that on the basis of speaking fluent English? Other than that, I can't really think of any other characteristics that would place him in that category...

His demeanor was very English like. Sure, he spoke very good and fluent English. I remember seeing his interview, he was incredibly impressive in his encylopedic knowledge but also had a pucca sahib touch.

In fact, when he directed the movie "Shatranj Ki Khilari", since the movie was not in Bangla but in Hindi-Urdu-English, he did all the work and direction in English, it was the duty of his longtime confidant to make all the translations, and communication on the set.

PS: Please put my series of comments in response (context) to PindainUSA words of wisdom when he made a derisive remark about westernized Indians. I am neither extolling or downgrading westernized Indians but it speaks of PindainUSA ignorance to not know of whole of an entire class of brown sahibs that have been in Indian subcontinent for centuries, and became its destiny - Nehru and Jinnah are two examples in addition to thousands ICS officers, and British Indian Army officers, later to become power brokers in India and Pakistan.

kush, ray's bengali was excellent too, by the way (as i said in #83...). other than that, point taken about the non-judgmental nature of the examples.

No team deserves kutchi, kutchi.

I understand what you mean and agree. Literally speaking, what does kutchi mean?

Literally speaking, what does kutchi mean?

Sweet nothings.......

Kush, thanks. And agreed regarding PS and context, I was just curious. :)

Whether or not Sanjay Dutt's sentence is fair or not should be decided based on sentences awarded to other people for similar crimes. His crime called for a minimum of 5 years and a maximum of 10 years imprisonment. Before anyone wishes for more leniency in Sanjay Dutt's case, he should instead fight for reevaluating prison sentences if he thinks Sanjay's sentence is unfair.

the Dutts were also apparently getting regular death threats from communalists

I also think the fact that Dutt has had this trial hanging over his head for fourteen years is pretty severe punishment in itself.

Also, let's not forget that he didn't need to associate with terrorists to get the weapons he needed if they were only for his protection. The people he associated with wreaked havoc in India.

On a last note, the guy who was charged with melting his pistol got five years imprisonment. If a person can get 5 years for disposing of a gun illegally and for lying, then why is a sentence of 6 years too harsh for Sanjay Dutt?

I am not sure if it is class, or his stardom, there is a certainly a bias as much in favour, as against of sanjay. What I can't understand is why he alone of all the convicts evokes so much sympathy in people. Is there any convict in the bomb blast who is not a victim of circumstance. None of them have documentaries made on their plight or have finances to fight the legal battle to the highest court. Every one who got caught was the small fish. Contrast the public response to his case and afzal case. I can't imagine anyone saying, "Oh afzal ! is not directly involved, he just got involved with the wrong crowd to feed his family"

Shiv Sena is a one man personality cult. Thackery controlled everything. The fact that sena is involved in the riots( and there is no dearth of evidence for it,many mumbaikars have first hand knowledge of it) is proof of thackery's culpability. Sainiks are automatons controlled by remote control.

...Westernized upper classes.

If they can put Sanjay Dutt in jail 6 years for owning firearms, why haven't they yet jailed Salman Khan for drunk driving and vehicular homicide? I love Sanjay Dutt as an actor but celebrity should not put any above the law. More and more celebrities in India and the USA walkaround freely after committing crimes than endanger the commonfolk. Sanju's sentence will send a message to Bollywood's glitterati. Now if only the US justice system would throw harsh sentences at the likes of Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan and Nicole Richie!

Also, jail R.Kelly after all he was caught on tape with that underaged girl!

why haven't they yet jailed Salman Khan for drunk driving and vehicular homicide?

That trial is still running.

Read it

I have written on SANJAY DUTT..

I too had sympathies for Sanjay till a point in time. I was ready to accept arguments that he may be an innocent victim in all this. However, my perception changed in 2000-2001 when recorded conversations were made public wherein he was speaking with Chota Shakeel to bump of Hritik Roshan because be was becoming too famous (Chikne to maarna hai...). That was it - since then I have no mercy for him and I'm ready to believe the worst about him.

Six years is too less.

M. Nam

moornam - i had no idea. perhaps the TADA court felt there wasn't enough to support a charge of terrorism, but the sentencing was some implicit way of reflecting some element of terrorist activity? on the other hand, even though i sort of feel bad he has to go back to jail (or maybe not, now knowing more information), i don't know how sentencing guidelines work in india - 6 years for holding a weapon like an AK-56 arguably seems on the lighter side, and it could be at the lower end of the sentencing range for this crime. either way, he did commit at least this one crime, and if this is within the permissive sentencing, it cannot be argued that it was unjust.

Sanjay Dutt is guilty by association with the Mumbai Underworld. Also arrogant,stupid and naive that he is above the law. Enough with the Sanju baba crap....he is almost 50 years old. Next are the killers of Jessica Lal, the drunk ones who mowed down poor urchins and police men in Mumbai and Delhi.

If you want to drill civic sense into people, they have to realize that law applies to all.

Moornam,
I too have read those transcripts. I don't remember Dutt wanting to kill anyone.
There was this bit where Shakeel said, "You have outclassed Rhitik Roshan in Mission Kashmir".
In taporese "Woh Chikne ki maar di hain ekdam first-class".
(link)

Lost in translation?

22 · Rahul on August 1, 2007 08:51 AM · Direct link
Yay, Floridian is baaaaaaaaack!

The party was great. Listen to this. One of my cousins in Delhi has the same birthday as mine. Back in the sixties, when both of us were young teens, our respective parents used to economize by combining our birthday parties into one. Turns out that my cousin's daughter has the same birthday as our wedding anniversary. So we dedicated our 35th wedding anniversary cake to her. After thirty-some years, my cousin and I were celebrating something together again. Now, how cool is that!

Eliot was good reading. I am picking up on Dalrymple now. Not in the same class as Khushwant Singh, though.

Not to go completely AWOL on the thread, here is a thought on Sanju, as the Page 3 glitterati calls him here in Delhi. Why not let him rake in millions acting in the 6 or 8 movies he has signed up for and donate the proceeds to a worthwhile charity? I can guaranee you each one of his movies will be a hit. Even though the majority of public opinion is in favor of the sentence, that does not take anything away from the huge affection people feel for him. After the last Munnabhai movie, he is a folk hero, and starring in movies as a person dutifully paying for his crime will really resonate with the Indian public.

Woh Chikne ki maar di hain ekdam first-class".

Not in the same class as Khushwant Singh, though.

Why not let him rake in millions acting in the 6 or 8 movies he has signed up for and donate the proceeds to a worthwhile charity

our respective parents used to economize by combining our birthday parties into one... So we dedicated our 35th wedding anniversary cake to her.

Glad it was so much fun! You know what they say. The family that saves together stays together.

Not in the same class as Khushwant Singh, though.

Is Khushwant Singh good? I never liked the short stories of his that I read growing up? Maybe because I felt the language was very plain and insipid, I don't know. I haven't read Train to Pakistan though. What do you recommend as good Khushwant Singh works to read?

After the last Munnabhai movie, he is a folk hero, and starring in movies as a person dutifully paying for his crime will really resonate with the Indian public.

But only under threat of life without parole if the third Munnabhai sucks and they destroy the franchise. The trailer for the third one looked quite good.

Hey guys,

this is strange.. I cannot find the navakal newspaper in town, but i saw the website has
come up since 2 days at

http://www.navakal.com

Shiv sena