LeftyProf listed "balanced" sources for more info on Sri Lankan history here. (And there's a damn good remix of Bucky Done Gun too.)

Thanjavur... what an interesting place to dispatch helicopters from. Did you know they've found oil in Thanjavur?

Rajiv Gandhi and Prabhakaran did negotiate in Madras in 1988/1989. Could this have been the helicopter ride that the Hindu referred to?

Another interesting fact: in 1988 India paid (bribed?) the LTTE $500,000 to support a peace accord. Guess that didn't turn out so well.

I was looking around on Wikipedia--all very vague.
I have been told that the Tigers were initially trained in-by India--most of the leaders and initial cadres were university students angry about revisions to the education system.
Re: Rajiv Gandhi's assasination, see:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0169302/

Way back in the 1970's, India supported the Tamil Tigers in their fight for "independence". This support was spread out amongst many "pro-Tamil" groups fighting in Sri Lanka, however. The LTTE, in order to rout out these other groups, attacked the most prominent Tamil and Eelam "factions", gaining complete hegemony. Eventually, the violence spiraled out of hand and the IPKF (Indian Peace Keeping Force) entered Sri Lanka. At Rajiv Gandhi's discretion, India tried to force both the Sri Lankan and LTTE (liberation tigers of tamil-eelam)towards peace. The LTTE refused, and the IPKF began a through, though unpopular, campaign to suppress the LTTE. The IPKF campaign became more and more unpopular in Sri Lanka, even amongst the majority Sinhalese ethnic group, but Rajiv kept the forces there regardless.

Eventually, the LTTE brazenly assassinated Rajiv Gandhi through suicide bombing - ( The suicide bomber, "Gayatri", was one of the first recorded female suicide bombers).

Since that time, the LTTE has been listed as a terrorist group by a number of U.N. member nations, and India has an antagonist relationship with the group.

It's a long story, but I want to caution people that LTTE is huge on disseminating biased information on the internet - the wikipedia article is dubious, to say the least. Look for a strong reputable source before researching this subject.

Btw, Anna, I heard you speak at the IALI conference and you were great! Keep up the good work - you are greatly appreciated!

2 · runnerwallah
in 1988 India paid (bribed?) the LTTE $500,000
_________________________________________________

Cheapo's!! You can't retire to miami beach on that!!

India aiding and abetting terrorism in neighbouring countries -- what's new? India's complaints against Pakistan of sponsoring "cross border terrorism" reek of hypocrisy when we all know that India sponsored the LTTE and prominent ministers allied with the central government continue to support them politically. Gun running from Tamil Nadu to Sri Lanka continues to take place unabated. And India's supply of crappy radars to Sri Lanka was just because they didn't want Sri Lanka to get radars that actually worked from China.

Rob - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0169302/ (The Terrorist) is an awesome movie. Perhaps the best movie to come out of India in the last decade. I wouldn't use it as a history lesson though. I was a kid living in India back when Prabhakaran was in his (bad) element, & a lot of the political-historical complexities escaped me. The Tamil Tigers are credited with 'inventing' suicide bombing. I would love to read up about it. I thought that with the death of Anton Balansingham (the LTTE political guru) & the ris of the Karuna faction, Prabhakaran was on the wane.

The bad joke when I was in school was "Where in the newspaper would you read about the LTTE everyday?" Letters To The Editor :-(

Lots of intrigue surrounding Prabakharan's ties with Indian arms dealers it seems. I never realized Sri-Lanka's strategic importance and India's manoeuvres to prevent their Pakistani and Chinese rivals in arms in moving into what India views as a sphere of influence.

Does anyone know who is arming the LTTE?

And does anyone know how much sympathy/solidarity Indian Tamils have with the Sri-Lankan Tamil independence movement? I stress the Tamil independence movement and not the LTTE.

Does anyone know who is arming the LTTE?

Well, the vast majority of the Tigers' war material comes from the SL Army itself--although recent success by the SL army would indicate some level of competence, for the most part they're unable to secure their own guns and the proximity of these depots is really too tempting for the Tigers. In the past, they've also succeded to intercepting ships carrying such material from foreign defense contractors (Zimbabwe was a popular choice in the 90s).

The second most popular (but by far the smaller source, only 5-10% in the past year), is Cambodia.

It's a long story, but I want to caution people that LTTE is huge on disseminating biased information on the internet - the wikipedia article is dubious, to say the least. Look for a strong reputable source before researching this subject.

Of course, they learned how to do this from the Government. There was a longstanding joke in Colombo, the gist of which was that if all the casualty reports from the Tigers and the Government were true, the war should've been over a very long time ago.

India's never been able to conduct itself like the US in foreign policy matters--in order to project force, you need much more than a couple thousand malnourished soldiers, like the IPKF in 87-90, you need aircraft carriers, air support, and willing accomplices on the island.

Sri Lanka, under J. R. Jayewardene, was moving toward the American camp

By creating the position of 'executive president,' in addition to prime minister, this cheery fellow basically ensured that every EP to come after him could pursue war with impunity--it really didn't matter whether the public was for or against anything--the EP could stay on for a good 6 years without danger of facing a 'no-confidence' vote.

I urge people to watch the BBC doc on the '83 riots and the conflict afterwards--the interview with old Junius, after the '83 riots, is absolutely chilling.

Almost seems like, India would be a lot better served in it's diplomatic goals acting as negotiator and trying to help resolve the conflict between the two and thus ensuring a stable SL. Anyone has any idea about the history of India vis a vis SL in this role as a conflict negotiator? I don't recalling much ever.

-quote-
And does anyone know how much sympathy/solidarity Indian Tamils have with the Sri-Lankan Tamil independence movement? I stress the Tamil independence movement and not the LTTE.
--quote-

Which independence movement? At this point in time, the LTTE has successfully culled the alternatives. Perhaps that is the biggest tragedy for Sri Lankan Tamils - even genuine aspirations will be swept under the carpet (if they haven't been lost already) if the LTTE is the only representative left standing. It is so very easy for the LTTE to cry quisling when an alternative warlord (like Karuna) enters the fray.

muralimannered, are you making a serious suggestion that the LTTE's well oiled propaganda machinery is in any way comparable to the bumbling ineptness of the GOSL? A recent spurt of competence (which won't last) still puts the government organizations far behind the LTTE.

The 'sea tigers' carry the arms into Sri-Lanka from places as far away as Zimbabwe?

Mahinda Rajapakse seems to popular in Sri-Lanka, would anyone agree? I don't like him, however.

Wiki article on suicide bombing. Interesting read. It does credit LTTE with popularizing this method, though it had been used before in Lebanon.

By the way, another piece of info missing in this discussion is that the Sl government actually armed the LTTE against the IPKF (its an open secret in SL at least).

# 14, backstory,
this has been the perpetual tragedy of many violent self-determination movements. When thugs (i.e. in most cases, the state) attack your group (your community, religious group, ethno-linguistic group etc.), only the most thuggish elements of your own group are overwhelmingly willing to respond in kind; for some time this is very popular with your own group. But gradually as the thugs in your own group gain power their thuggish ways do not diminish; on the contrary they then lord over the rest of you. And so the thuggery (on both sides) continues. It is thus imperative to at least have a parallel preferably non-violent and civilized movement not run by the thuggish elements of any group (too bad the state itself does not qualify).

And does anyone know how much sympathy/solidarity Indian Tamils have with the Sri-Lankan Tamil independence movement? I stress the Tamil independence movement and not the LTTE.

there will be others along (who have actually lived in TN) to tell you more about this (or correct me), but it seems like a mixed bag. some of the TN political parties support the independence movement, solely based on the concept of dravidian unity or a separate tamil state (after all, the DMK and its successors have called for secession of TN from the indian nation itself). but there has also been talk of direct help to the LTTE, esp. by karunanidhi who might be/have been under investigation for this.

apart from the government, i see a lot of tamilians who are unable to separate the independence movement from the LTTE ways - i.e. the view that all tamil sri lankans (whether they vocally profess secession or not) are associated with the tigers. on the other hand, some tamilians from TN support not only the independence movement but, apparently, the LTTE, as well (4 from the NY area were busted by the FBI recently).

It does credit LTTE with popularizing this method, though it had been used before in Lebanon.

apart from the government, i see a lot of tamilians who are unable to separate the independence movement from the LTTE ways - i.e. the view that all tamil sri lankans (whether they vocally profess secession or not) are associated with the tigers. on the other hand, some tamilians from TN support not only the independence movement but, apparently, the LTTE, as well (4 from the NY area were busted by the FBI recently).

India's domestic politics were a reason for India to step into the Sinhalese-Tamil divide. MGR was born in Sri Lanka and had good relations with Prabhakaran. MGR was a loyal ally of Indira Gandhi. So the Congress accepted MGR's advice that India should help Prabhakaran. But things did not work out.

The Tamilians of Tamil Nadu feel that Prabhakaran is too tough to be an object of pity. They are willing to give small doses of humanitarian help, but anything beyond that---all bets are off.

This was the place from where helicopters were despatched via Thanjavur in Tamil Nadu to rescue the LTTE leader V. Prabakaran at Vadamarachchi on the northern tip of Jaffna after the Sri Lankan Army had cornered him in the late 80s.

--> Wasnt this the same period where TN politicians across the spectrum(Vaiko to MK to MGR(before he kicked the bucket)) supported LTTE and encouraged its rise at the expense of other SL tamil groups ? And when the neophyte Rajiv Gandhi didnt know what he was doing especially with respect to SL tamil problem ?
To me, India's involvement in SL affairs is a tragedy and an example of how incompetence and callous disregard for indian lives can lead to utter disaster(for India).

It does credit LTTE with popularizing this method, though it had been used before in Lebanon.

IRA?

I don't know whether suicide bombing was used by IRA. Of course, wiki pages are not always the most accurate sources, and this particular article makes no mention of IRA or Ireland. This is what the wiki article says:

The first modern suicide bombing involving explosives deliberately carried to the target either on the person or in a civilian vehicle and delivered by surprise was in 1981; perfected by the factions of the Lebanese Civil War and especially by the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka, the tactic had spread to dozens of countries by 2005.

Anyway, getting OT here. :)

Amit, actually now that I think of it I bet the first "suicide bomber" was Guy Fawkes.

To me, India's involvement in SL affairs is a tragedy and an example of how incompetence and callous disregard for indian lives can lead to utter disaster(for India).

Wasnt this the same period where TN politicians across the spectrum(Vaiko to MK to MGR(before he kicked the bucket)) supported LTTE and encouraged its rise at the expense of other SL tamil groups ? And when the neophyte Rajiv Gandhi didnt know what he was doing especially with respect to SL tamil problem ?

Krishnan, this is an excellent summary of the combination of opportunism and bungling that is characteristic of Indian involvement in this affair. And Vaiko, at least, continued spouting his LTTE support till well into the mid 90s before JJ threw him into jail using POTA (used for terrorist abettors, suspends habeas corpus, and other such good stuff), mainly to settle some scores. He seemed to have his tail tucked firmly between his legs when he got out, and hasn't played much of a role in Tamil politics since. I think that the current climate makes it difficult for any of the parties to actively support the LTTE, which is pretty indelibly identified with the Tamil independence movement.

The history of Indian intervention in Sri Lanka is long and complex. From Indira Gandhi's suspicion of a Sinhala-US/UK axis to Premadasa's stabbing Rajiv in the back to Prabhakaran's final F...You to Rajiv.

For a description of the politics I found an excellent series written by K T Rajasingham who I think was PLOTE leader.
(warning: this is several weekends worth of serious reading)

http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/DF29Df01.html

(The link points to one of the last of the series, you can follow the link at the bottom to previous chapters)

oh and you must have figured out by now, H. L. D. Mahindapala in my books represents the worst Sinhala racist stereotypes.

Further reading:

"Assignment Colombo": JN Dixit on the politics

"Broken Palmyra": On how Indian soldiers were trapped in a Insurgency which is more familiar to people today after Iraq.
http://www.uthr.org/BP/Content.htm

"Bharat Rakshak" on the Indian Army in SL
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1987/index.html

#8 :

And does anyone know how much sympathy/solidarity Indian Tamils have with the Sri-Lankan Tamil independence movement? I stress the Tamil independence movement and not the LTTE

Having grown up in southern TN in the 80s, I remember that the public sympathy for LTTE (which was synonymous to the independence movement then) was near unanimous. During elections, the campaign posters of the candidates from the Dravidian parties (DMK and ADMK) would indeed have doctored pictures of the candidate and Prabhakaran (in his full military regalia) posturing shoulder to shoulder. Only after the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi did the major Dravidian parties distance themselves away from LTTE and the public sentiments turned away from the LTTE. However, there was still a small market for LTTE/Srilankan Tamil sympathy and smaller dravidian parties like the MDMK (splintered from the DMK, started by V. Gopalsamy, aka vaiko) catered to that market. But at the present moment, the Srilankan Tamil issue is largely off the mainstream radar, since people have more important issues to care about, like Sivaji the Boss.

Also Anita Pratap has a book on it "Isle of .... (forget what)" read some parts of it.

The best way to learn of course would be if anyone has access to the archives of the "The Hindu" of that era.

Also before I leave a reply for "Mushkil"

If you read the references above you will see how throughout the conflict the goal of the Indian government was to form a stable broad-based government in Sri Lanka, one that would protect the rights of the Tamil minority and give them some degree of autonomy while preserving the territorial integrity of Sri Lanka. Sure things are not perfect, violence was part of the strategy at times and many mistakes were made.

This is in contrast to Pakistani policy in Afghanistan which has consistently undermined the formation of a government which will represent all Afghans in favour of a proxy. This chosen proxy was Hekmatyar at one point and later the Taliban. For instance read about the Peter Tomsen mission in Afghanistan (1989-91) and how it was sabotaged.

Prabhakaran's daughter studies medicine at University College London.

I think that the current climate makes it difficult for any of the parties to actively support the LTTE, which is pretty indelibly identified with the Tamil independence movement.

True. It's tough to identify the turning point, if there was a single turning point. One good candidate event is the LTTE assassinating 13 members of the EPRLF and 2 Indian civilian bystanders in Chennai in 1990. This is the equivalent of a married couple getting into a fistfight and instead of throwing things at each other, they barge into their neighbors' place and throw the neighbors' things at each other. There was a bomb blast set off by the LTTE at the Madras airport in 1984 which killed 33 people, not that it made a difference to the politicians who subsequently supported every Tam, dick and hairy terrorist.

But at the present moment, the Srilankan Tamil issue is largely off the mainstream radar, since people have more important issues to care about, like Sivaji the Boss.

Traditionally, Tamil politicians have had even more pressing things to worry about than a Rajnikanth movie, such as a statue of a fictional character in a Tamil epic. An anonymous contributor on Wikimapia summarized it perfectly.

#23

"The history of Indian intervention in Sri Lanka is long and complex. From Indira Gandhi's suspicion of a Sinhala-US/UK axis to Premadasa's stabbing Rajiv in the back to Prabhakaran's final F...You to Rajiv."

But nowadays, India confirms her alliance to the US in fighting terrorism, right? The LTTE are truely isolated, then. I have a problem with that because abuses by the SL security forces must now be going completely unscrutinized by Sri-Lanka's neighbours and the rest of the world. Everyone all over the world is obsessed with taking out the terrorists - the 'you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs' attitude which has led to an estimated 1 million displaced Tamils in Northern Sri-Lanka who are fleeing from place to place

I've heard that the SL air force are dropping bombs at random in LTTE-controlled territories without any concern for the civilians they are killing along the way in the hope that they will get rid of some LTTE fighters.

#31

India is in no position to do anything in Sri Lanka, its history is too deep. It is the one party that is both loved and hated by all groups, hence it can never be a convincing neutral party. Even the most innocent statement out of New Delhi like "There should be greater respect for civilian lives" will be spun a hundred different ways by each group for its own ends.

muralimannered, are you making a serious suggestion that the LTTE's well oiled propaganda machinery is in any way comparable to the bumbling ineptness of the GOSL? A recent spurt of competence (which won't last) still puts the government organizations far behind the LTTE.

The reason that I rank the government ahead of the LTTE, when it comes to propaganda, is not because of their methods but because of how it is received and who takes it seriously. The LTTE preaches to the converted through their satellite TV programming and web content--however the Government is recognized by the UN and all major western and eastern powers as the only legitimate governmental authority on the Island. GOSL doesn't need to be slick, or convincing, in order for power brokers to take them and their 'facts' seriously.

Granted, the Tigers' propaganda would probably sway surface-scratching, Che Shirt-wearing, first-year college students, but for any serious student of international politics it would seem pretty obvious that they were reading/watching propaganda.

It doesn't seem to matter to the rest of the market-economy, lib-democracy world that Rajapakse is Stalin-style marxist, carries deep sympathies for the rural, JVP-affiliated Singhalese (terrorists in their own right) who are far removed from the conflict in the north and east and that he's willing to give the war bikkhus a voice and influence in the actual governing of the country.

If you read the references above you will see how throughout the conflict the goal of the Indian government was to form a stable broad-based government in Sri Lanka, one that would protect the rights of the Tamil minority and give them some degree of autonomy while preserving the territorial integrity of Sri Lanka. Sure things are not perfect, violence was part of the strategy at times and many mistakes were made.

sounds a bit like neo-con apologia for the Iraq war, no? I think you should expand upon your last sentence a bit more--Indian intervention in SL, like others have described on this thread, was at it's best a colossal failure.

India didn't give GOSL just radar equipment as a way to prevent Chinese/Pakistani ELINT devices on their southern coast line--they limited the 'aid' package to non-offensive weaponry so that it would be clear to the LTTE that India was not interested in hastening a military solution to the problem--an approach it should have taken in the years of the IPKF.

This has puzzled me for long and I hope some, esp those Tamils from SL or TN, can answer it for me.

A key factor quoted by Tamils in SL and TN for supporting the SL Tamils' fight is the very biased and discriminatory policies of the Sinhala-dominated SL Govt. For instance, the policies require SL Tamil students score higher than SL non-Tamils to gain admittance to universities.

At the same time the Govt in Tamil Nadu has very discriminatory policies that require so-called Forward Castes (i.e., mostly the Tamil Brahmins) to score higher than the rest to gain admission to universities. How is that TN Govt policy different from the SL Govt policy? The Indian Tamils and the TN Govt that (used to, and some still do) support the SL Tamils plight don't seem to realize they are themselves beneficiaries of the same policy.

A key factor quoted by Tamils in SL and TN for supporting the SL Tamils' fight is the very biased and discriminatory policies of the Sinhala-dominated SL Govt. For instance, the policies require SL Tamil students score higher than SL non-Tamils to gain admittance to universities.

That wasn't the sole factor, or even the most important. The GOSL had adopted, by the time of the affirmative-action policy, an official, state stance on what was to be 'the' national character--Buddhist believing, Singhala-speaking and Singhalese in acculturation. All of my relatives speak Singhala fluently--it would be impossible to find the opposite situation in the south, i.e. scads of Singhalese who can speak Tamil fluently.

In fact, the only reason that Singhalese security personel learn Tamil words is to flush out 'terrorists' at checkpoints in Colombo.

#21 Camille:
To me, India's involvement in SL affairs is a tragedy and an example of how incompetence and callous disregard for indian lives can lead to utter disaster(for India).
It could be argued that for SL, as well :(
--> (At the risk of coming across as callous) SL was going to the dogs anyway before India intervened(A culture that actively encourages ethnic cleansing is a shameful one anyway). SL(Jayawardene and Premadasa in particular) played India very well during that period. I could care less about the LTTE and SL lives lost.
For me, the defining moment of the problem is the treatment(instead of honours) given to returning indian soldiers at chennai port by the f-ing tamil politicians(MK, Vaiko). While IPKF is not blameless in terms of atrocities in SL, to turn one's back on your soldiers especially after being a party to sending them to fight in SL, was the height of irresponsibility and callousness.

#22 Rahul

Vaiko, at least, continued spouting his LTTE support till well into the mid 90s before JJ threw him into jail using POTA (used for terrorist abettors, suspends habeas corpus, and other such good stuff), mainly to settle some scores. He seemed to have his tail tucked firmly between his legs when he got out, and hasn't played much of a role in Tamil politics since.

--> I think it was the sign of the times. I come from what is considered to be Vaiko's stronghold(south TN) and we didnt bat an eyelid when he took out cycle rallies in favour of LTTE's "suffering". We didnt think of IPKF as suffering especially when you have political leaders raving about their atrocities on fellow tamils.
Nowadays, I think the sensibilities in TN politics has moved on to caste consciousness from language consciousness, hence the parties like PMK, Viduthalai siruthaigal and so on.

At the risk of coming across as callous) SL was going to the dogs anyway before India intervened(A culture that actively encourages ethnic cleansing is a shameful one anyway). SL(Jayawardene and Premadasa in particular) played India very well during that period. I could care less about the LTTE and SL lives lost.

Krishnan,

what is exactly was/is your metric for 'going to the dogs.' And are you suggesting that there was a monolithic Sri-Lankan culture of genocide?

My family was doing quite well, in the fiscal sense, before the '83 riots. They certainly were not 'going to the dogs' but donating money to charities in TN.

By that standard, nebulous as it is, could you not say that in TN, at least judging from the movies, there is a culture that glorifies high caste-low caste rape, senseless maulings and suicide as a means of escaping soluble problems?

This has puzzled me for long and I hope some, esp those Tamils from SL or TN, can answer it for me.

A key factor quoted by Tamils in SL and TN for supporting the SL Tamils' fight is the very biased and discriminatory policies of the Sinhala-dominated SL Govt. For instance, the policies require SL Tamil students score higher than SL non-Tamils to gain admittance to universities.

At the same time the Govt in Tamil Nadu has very discriminatory policies that require so-called Forward Castes (i.e., mostly the Tamil Brahmins) to score higher than the rest to gain admission to universities. How is that TN Govt policy different from the SL Govt policy? The Indian Tamils and the TN Govt that (used to, and some still do) support the SL Tamils plight don't seem to realize they are themselves beneficiaries of the same policy.

Irony: They would argue that prior to reservation that Brahmins and other forward castes had discriminated actively against the lower castes, a power relationship that did not exist in SL. This is true and I don't really have any patience for those who would argue with this historical fact. However I am against reservation because it doesn't work and secondly in Tamil Nadu many socially advantaged landowning castes (my own included) have lobbied to be reclassified as "backward" even though they were very much the primary agents, rather than Brahmins, of discrimination against Dalits. Please, lets's stay on topic

I could care less about the LTTE and SL lives lost.

What a good little nationalist you are! Please remind us all of this sentiment, the next time a natural disaster occurrs in the TN area.

In fact, I would encourage you to inform all of your acquaintances of your rather cavalier attitude towards human suffering--it should give them ample time to prepare for the day of their greatest need in which you giggle and shamble away.

muralimannered, arguing mostly as a devil's advocate, I would put to you that the rest of the world cares about Rajapakshe's politics and his dalliance with the JVP - but they too lack a credible alternative candidate to support.

I would politely disagree with your assessment about the weight of LTTE propaganda. Were it a simple matter of convincing Che tshirt wearing college students of the justness of their cause; then that's one thing. Fox News could learn a thing or two from the LTTE media machine and that's saying something.

Krishnan, that's an interesting blanket generalization. At the risk of sounding combative, would you by the same token call Hindu culture in India shameful for the policies and actions of say ... a fringe movement like the Shiv Sena?

I would politely disagree with your assessment about the weight of LTTE propaganda. Were it a simple matter of convincing Che tshirt wearing college students of the justness of their cause; then that's one thing. Fox News could learn a thing or two from the LTTE media machine and that's saying something.

I think we've reached the point where a supporting source is needed. And I don't think I was clear enough earlier--the LTTE only needs to reach out to members of the Tamil community, who are/were only too aware of life under a singhalese-majority government. The propaganda they feed my community is secondary because it serves only as a reminder--not a catalyst for changing a person who is aware of the LTTE's proclivity to murder members of the Tamil communty into a fervent Tiger supporter.

Muralimanered:
Ok, the discrimninatory "affirmative-action" policy wasn't the sole or most important factor. What I'd highlight is several of the other factors you quote--Singhala-speaking, Singhalese in acculturation, etc.--equally apply to the TN experience. The TN Govt and political parties pushed a Tamil-speaking, Tamil in acculturation, etc. policy, in addition to the very lopsided "affirmative-action" when it comes to college admissions, that seem a close approximation of what transpired in SL. Starting in 1970 or so and gaining momentum significantly in the couple decades that followed (and therefore, even in timing matching the process in SL)

So why do the Tamils in SL or TN not realize how they were partaking in and enjoying the benefits of what they decry and protest against in SL?

How different would things have shaped out if the affected in TN took the path that the LTTE and others did in SL?

Fox News could learn a thing or two from the LTTE media machine and that's saying something.

I guess you don't watch as much Fox News as I do. LTTE propaganda focuses on both real and fabricated/embellished GOSL military strikes on civilian targets and casts this mishmash of lies/truth as hard news. Fox News mainly serves to glorify and make legitimate, the military ventures of US, in the advancement of foreign policy. They still do trump up hearsay, and non-identifiable sources, but this tactic is really secondary to tapping into the xenophobic feelings of 'patriots.' Rather, i think the LTTE could learn more from Fox News.

Irony: Why does Muralimannered need to answer that ? He is SL Tamil, not Indian

here is my response: They would argue that prior to reservation that Brahmins and other forward castes had discriminated actively against the lower castes, a power relationship that did not exist in SL. This is true and I don't really have any patience for those who would argue with this historical fact. However I am against reservation because it doesn't work and secondly in Tamil Nadu many socially advantaged landowning castes (my own included) have lobbied to be reclassified as "backward" even though they were very much the primary agents, rather than Brahmins, of discrimination against Dalits.

Muralimannered:

India's never been able to conduct itself like the US in foreign policy matters--in order to project force, you need much more than a couple thousand malnourished soldiers, like the IPKF in 87-90, you need aircraft carriers, air support, and willing accomplices on the island.

Actually, the IPKF, if I remember correctly, deployed some 102,000 troops to SL. If you consider the size of the area where they were deployed, that's a huge number. They had air support etc, too.

One IPKF officer told me at the time that the Indian objective was to stay in SL for 15 years or more. "When we have a foothold in another country, why will we let it go?" he said. As it turned out, the 102,000 troops were routed by a much smaller guerilla force. An Indian General later referred to the SL disaster as "our Vietnam."

I think that India's role in this conflict is a lot more complex (because confused). On the one hand, trying to act on Indian Tamilian sympathy for the SL Tamils (leading to support for the Tigers). On the other, the desire to create stability (leading to support for the SL government). Third, power projection desires, muscle-flexing, and preventing U.S. interference. Etc. Etc.

This is why I think bongdongs' assessment of Indian motives is much too simplistic and generous:

If you read the references above you will see how throughout the conflict the goal of the Indian government was to form a stable broad-based government in Sri Lanka, one that would protect the rights of the Tamil minority and give them some degree of autonomy while preserving the territorial integrity of Sri Lanka. Sure things are not perfect, violence was part of the strategy at times and many mistakes were made.

I don't think the Indian government really gave a crap about the rights of ordinary SL Tamils. In my dictionary, "Mistakes were made" is a platitude that ranks right up there with phrases like "collateral damage." Having come from a fauji family myself, I have few illusions in the benevolence of the Indian military.

I know of SL Tamils whose families were kidnapped, tortured, and brutalized by the IPKF. Women were raped. Villages were mowed down because they were suspected of "harboring" LTTE fighters. How can you claim that the goal of Indian policy was to "protect the rights of the Tamil minority" when the IPKF itself conducted heinous violations of the rights of the very same people?

Incidentally, when people read up on all of this, please note that two organizations/parties that are constantly referred to in a lot of the literature as "leftist" or "marxist", the JVP and the SLFP, are actually neither leftist nor marxist--they are in fact right-wing populists with a Sinhala-chauvinist orientation. Just a heads-up.

Louiecypher"
It would take a particularly biased person to not see that the parallel in SL. FYI--the Singhalese in SL too claim the SL Tamils discriminated actively against the Singhalese, benefited disproportionately from the British and colonial period, exercised power far in excess of their representation in society, etc. and the new policies were meant to address those discrepancies. Not that different from what the TN politicos have been advocating as well....

This is very much ON topic. It draws a compelling parallel with events in SL and TN. Please don't suggest it's off topic because it's an angle you are personally uncomfortable with.

Irony-
A message to you: I see that you enjoy viewing your community as the most put upon in India. I have taken my community to task for its historical wrongs in my comments, perhaps you can do the same.

SL Tamils did not bar Sinhalese from temples, restrict their access to education, abuse them as ritually unclean. They merely took advantage of the new social order imposed by the Brits and took up English & English language education. That this analogy does not work only evades people who have the same mindset as white apologists for the Jim Crow South

#45

I know of SL Tamils whose families were kidnapped, tortured, and brutalized by the IPKF. Women were raped. Villages were mowed down because they were suspected of "harboring" LTTE fighters. How can you claim that the goal of Indian policy was to "protect the rights of the Tamil minority" when the IPKF itself conducted heinous violations of the rights of the very same people?

There is many a slip between the cup and the lip. I will stick by "protect the rights of the Tamil minority" being one of the aims of GOI policy. The IPKF did not go into SL to kill tamils but the situation on the ground turned into such that eventually that is what happened, how it happenend is complex and the LTTE is largely to blame (with Premadasa closely behind). The failure of Indian government policy was in allowing its soldiers getting trapped into counter-insurgency operations. Nobody in the world has figured out how to do these correctly and Indian soldiers are no better (and I'm sure many wil say worse) than any army in this situation.

To add to LeftyProf (#45), the IPKF carried out two helicopter assaults (one on Jaffna). They were well supported, they had decent resupply - in short, they were a vastly superior force. The IPKF wasn't a second string afterthought.

The perceived threat of long-term occupation was precisely what led Premadasa to allegedly arm the LTTE. To place the comment in context, at that point the state was fighting a war on two fronts. The JVP in the south of the country and the LTTE in the north. No doubt the LTTE was seen at the time as the lesser of the two evils. Evicting the foreign army (ie:, the IPKF) was also a useful nationalist rallying cry for the politicians. Feelings about the "indian occupation" ran high in the late 80s. In obviously 20/20 hindsight, perhaps supporting the LTTE wasn't the best of plans.

Umm. The JVP recruiters/rank and file in the party spew Marxist rhetoric. Ultra-nationalist yes, but their economic policies are very much socialist/left leaning. As are the SLFP. The UNP (the other major party after the SLFP) are perceived as right-wing because they espouse a free market economy and other capitalist (non-leftist) aims. It's the whole Commies are lefties! no, they're right wing! Cold War era argument.

muralimannered, I'll probably come up short but I'm looking around for an illustrative source to make my case. You probably haven't seen the articles by the pro-LTTE sites justifying violence against those Tamils in the north and east who voted in the last election, for example.

An almost relevant tangent: anyone remember this guy?

I agree with louiecypher, and am remiss in commending him for saying so, that several socially advantaged castes in TN perpetrated disagreeable and reprehensible policies toward the weaker section. Unfortunately that continues even to this day, even while many claim to be "backward" and lobby for benefits that were meant for the weak and I commend again louiecypher for seeing through that, and expressing his distate and disagreement with that.

Second, it is my experience that SL society (prior to the outbreak of civil war) wasn't going to the dogs as someone claimed in a posting. The SL Tamils I knew enjoyed a higher standard of living than TN Tamils until the outbreak of civil war in SL.

Please let's now abstract ourselves a level up as I'd like to highlight attention back to a parallel I see between events in SL and TN societies that somehow seem to have escaped the attention of analysts, pundits, meda, and the politicians.

The Sinhalese spout forth certain "reasons" why they had it bad and how the policies enacted in 1970 or so redress their grievances. The Tamils in TN spout forth "reasons" that don't seem that different.
The SL Tamils suffered many public atrocities. The "forward castes" in TN suffered many public atrocities (but one can argue the magnitudes vary)
The Tamils in SL fled, took to arms and there's a civil war raging for a couple+ decades in SL. The Tamils in TN support(ed) the Tamils in SL.

What I'm trying to do is point out to the SL Tamils and the TN Tamils that the TN "forward castes" suffer(ed) in ways similar to the SL Tamils, and it is rank hypocrisy to ignore the abuses inflicted by the TN Tamils *today* (and in the last couple decades) on the "forward castes" while professing empathy for the abuses suffered by the SL Tamils *today* (and in the last couple decades) at the hands of the SL Sinhalese.

#49
"The JVP in the south of the country and the LTTE in the north. No doubt the LTTE was seen at the time as the lesser of the two evils"

Oh come on, the JVP seen as a greater threat than LTTE by Colombo, no way I believe that.

The Sinhalese ultra-nationalists (who dominate the oficer ranks of the armed forces) always felt given enough "room" they could finish off the LTTE and hence the "tamil problem". This demographic has an intense hatered anythng Indian (from the colonial days) and could imagine no greater humiliation than Indian soldiers on this soil. The IPKF was seen as an opportunity to give Indian such a bloody nose that they would never again dare intervene in SL. (They surely succeeded, didnt they!)

So this is my perplexity - on the one hand you have a country with a very decent literacy rate, very little economic deprivation - similar in culture to indian states like Kerala and Tamil Nadu. But at the same time, unlike Kerala and Tamil Nadu, this country is embroiled in an infinite civil war since the past 20 years!!

Wow, this is even worse than the Kashmir situation (low literacy, dispute began with independence, plenty of money from saudi friends and no shortage of paki jihadis) or most parts of the indian northeast (not well integrated into india, lots of tribes that want to kill each other off).

What gives? What is the high-level story here? I am trying to understand those aspects of Sri Lankan society that are somehow OK with this current situation. What was the nature of the sri lankan freedom struggle? Was there a broad civil society movement? Why was it so easy to define the tamils as the privileged "others" who have to be suppressed. And what the hell is a "fascist bhikhu" anyway?

#52: No, sorry. I don't buy it. You forget that the JVP was dominating the electoral heartland of many aspiring politicians and that the influence of the JVP could be felt in demonstrations and civil disruptions inside Colombo on an almost daily basis.

To the politicians in Colombo; the LTTE was always something that happened in the north with the occasional spillover in the form of a bomb somewhere in the city. The JVP was in their faces, every single day. The JVP was also smart enough to make several populist gestures (like publicly humiliating corrupt village and city officials and minor politicians). Of course the JVP was a bigger threat. The LTTE didn't control enough territory or people at the time to sway an election. The JVP most emphatically did.

Perhaps there was private cheering in the nationalist elements of the military when the Indians got a bloody nose. I myself don't think so, but my second and third hand anecdotes don't make a case either way. By the way, most (though not all) of the senior military who might have had any memory of the colonial era were given mandatory retirement when the government changed in '77. I would personally doubt your theory on that basis alone.

And what the hell is a "fascist bhikhu" anyway?

A fascist bhikku is a nominally Theravada Buddhist monk who is not following the dhamma and only concerns himself with maintaining Sinhala culture. Some people who don't understand Buddhism or Hinduism will toss out terms like "Hindu fundamentalist" or "Buddhist fundamentalist". Neither of these terms make any sense....in both cases they are not concerned with theology but rather maintaining a culture that only existed in some imagined past. Some groups like SAJA get it all wrong and as a result you now see background like "mostly Buddhist Sinhalese" or "mostly Hindu Tamils" in articles when this does nothing to explain the animus. In SL you have fascist monks who don't want to aknowledge the multi-ethnic nature of SL society. They don't like to see the syncretism (e.g. Kataragama) that has been typical of Sri Lankan society excepting the last 50 years

What I'm trying to do is point out to the SL Tamils and the TN Tamils that the TN "forward castes" suffer(ed) in ways similar to the SL Tamils, and it is rank hypocrisy to ignore the abuses inflicted by the TN Tamils *today* (and in the last couple decades) on the "forward castes" while professing empathy for the abuses suffered by the SL Tamils *today* (and in the last couple decades) at the hands of the SL Sinhalese.

Are you seriously comparing abuses suffered at the hands of "forward castes" for thousands of year to the open quota for universities in the last couple of decades? Very narrow look you got there.

I'm seriously comparing the experience of the "forward caste" in TN in the last few decades to that of the SL Tamils in SL over the same period. Both have been discriminated against for reasons claimed by the majority in those regions that seem to have more in common than different.
One took to arms, the other has been silent.
It must take a very odd and narrow look to support the tribulations of the former while inflicting the latter to the same.

Sno's read of my position is myopic and his projection of his narrow look onto me is too transparent to invite a rebuttal. Should he be reminded that the ones that deserve help owing to discrimination suffered for many years still find that help wanting, as it has been usurped by everyone else? That is off topic here--as this discusion is about the experiences of SL Tamils, SL and TN societal parallels, etc.--and merits a separate thread.

I'm seriously comparing the experience of the "forward caste" in TN in the last few decades to that of the SL Tamils in SL over the same period

Irony:Sure restrict yourself to the comtemporary period.....of course dynamics between communities is a Markov chain with the past having no impact on the present.

That is off topic here--as this discusion is about the experiences of SL Tamils, SL and TN societal parallels, etc.--and merits a separate thread.

Agreed that it is a separate thread on a different blog...setup something on blogspot and I will join you there

#54

Did you actually live in Colombo in those days? IF yes, then maybe I did not realize how serious the JVP threat was. Thanks for enlightening me.

#53 Al beruni

Wow, this is even worse than the Kashmir situation (low literacy, dispute began with independence, plenty of money from saudi friends and no shortage of paki jihadis) or most parts of the indian northeast (not well integrated into india, lots of tribes that want to kill each other off).

This needs to be taken up somewhere else, but clearly you think that the Indian government has done nothing wrong in either Kashmir or the northeast, huh? Off topic, I admit, but seriously...!

Al Beruni, here's my brief take on your questions. I write as a SL Tamil that lived in SL and TN and very familiar with the trains of thought and events that led from one thing to another in both areas.

The SL freedom struggle was led by Sinhalese and Tamils, with the latter disproportionately represented in the leadership levels relative to their presence in the population. For a variety of reasons SL Tamils were better educated and owing to that were a large presence in the colonial bureacracy. This of course led to a mindset amongst the Sinhalese that they were cronies of the colonists and working with them, deprived the Sinhalese of their rights to education, progress, jobs, and all that matters. Academia, administration, banks and other govt/service jobs were the primary vocations of the middle and upper middle class SL Tamils, and owing to their large presence in those jobs and the nature of the interactions that led between them and the Sinhalese, the Sinhalese resentments grew. And those resentments were blown up and exploited for votes by the Sinhalese politicos once democracy dawned on SL. How better to get someone's attention and get their vote than to play up their fears and resentments, present a mythological past and an imminent threat, and present the Sinhalese community as one that has been abused, exploited, and now was at the cusp of regaining its former glory?

The Sinhalese politicians weren't that different from what I observed of the TN (i.e., the DK and its derivatives: DMK, AIDMK, etc.) and the populace equally vulnerable to narratives of the opportunity at hand to redress past abuses at the hands of a few, etc.

And does anyone know how much sympathy/solidarity Indian Tamils have with the Sri-Lankan Tamil independence movement? I stress the Tamil independence movement and not the LTTE.

People have given a picture of the political sympathy thus far. I want to try and describe the public sentiments to some extent.

Indian Tamils (the public) had a lot of sympathy in the 80s, especially after the riots and the attacks and waves of refugees (representing different socioeconomic classes) reached our shores. Home owners rented houses/apartments without asking questions, business owners gave daily-wage jobs to the 'boys' who escaped profiling by the SL army and recruiting by the various Tamil orgs, schools admitted students at all times of the year (school admisiions is a big deal in India), there was even a quota at college-level, I think (somebody correct me if I am wrong). All the different Tamil factions enjoyed the support and confidence of both the Central Govt (leaders) and the TN State Govt (leaders). RAW supposedly knew which faction was in which part of town, what their movements were, whom they met with, where their funding came from. And it was open knowledge that training camps functioned near places like Thanjavur, Madurai, Dharmapuri and Tiruchy but it did not faze people much in the beginning.

But this feeling of sympathy and solidarity would not last very long and was never unconditional. The public soon realized that it was difficult to distinguish between families (that it sort of identified with) and the 'boys' and 'girls' who were actively part of the movement (that it found hard to identify with as they went back and forth by boats, and talked and lived ideology, and carried concealed weapons; sometimes the original tenant 'disappeared' leaving behind say 10 others, perhaps, making the home owner nervous). As the determined fighting between LTTE and the other factions escalated on TN soil, the public became nervous, impatient and unforgiving. TELO members were assasinated in their rented apartment in a crowded part of Chennai, and this could have been one of the final pieces of straw. Home owners who rented to other factions like PLOTE, EPRLF received bomb threats (presumably from LTTE), and were hence reluctant to be seen as sympathetic to anybody. There was also some bank robbery by disillusioned, starving and leaderless youngsters (I forget which faction) in the late 80s/early 90s which did not sit well with the newspapers and the public. By then, people were weary of everything Tamil or Sri Lankan. By then also, the 'excitement' and the 'revolutionary' factor also must have died down in the minds of the public.

The real tragedy, to me, involves all those young men and women, some as young as 14, whose lives were snuffed out early or whose options for living and finding their place in the world were narrowed.

What I'm trying to do is point out to the SL Tamils and the TN Tamils that the TN "forward castes" suffer(ed) in ways similar to the SL Tamils,

Are you not trivializing the SL Tamil situation in the 80s by putting it on par with the problems of the forward castes in TN in the 80s or since then. Have there been violent and bloody pogroms directed at forward castes in TN in the 80s?

Show some respect for tamil national hero. We tamils stand by him and support the our right to independece. We are the founders of the island.
Check out our supporters @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP-hBhtbjgg

There was also some bank robbery by disillusioned, starving and leaderless youngsters (I forget which faction) in the late 80s/early 90s which did not sit well with the newspapers and the public

Confirming the above statement from Malathi. There are different types of Tamil identity and it varies by district and community. The coastal communities & areas like Madurai were the primary sources of "Indian Tamil" plantation labor in Sri Lanka during the Brit period and probably had the deepest sympathies. Other districts/communities like mine had no skin in the game...no relatives in Sri Lanka at all and were sympathetic to the cause prior to the wave of violent home invasions by the youth Malathi describes above and the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi. They lost a significant amount of revenue base through that action.....you can't go to any shrine room in my community without seeing garlanded pictures of the entire Nehru clan (even if they don't necessarily vote Congress). The SL returned "Indian Tamils" who were trying to integrate into TN suffered the most, there was/is a great deal of suspicion towards them

In the mid-to-late '80s businessmen, shopkeepers, etc. in TN were periodically harangued to contribute money to the SL Tamil cause. Initially they did it with few reservations but as the demands grew more frequent they found it onerous which led to threats and insinuations and outright manhandling and robberies and at the point, the sympathy and solidarity for the plight of the SL Tamils amongst the rank and file Tamils in TN started fading away. "Donor fatigue" and of course what transpired since the Accord accelerated the emotional distancing.

>Are you not trivializing the SL Tamil situation in the 80s by putting it on par with the problems of the forward castes in TN in the 80s or since >then. Have there been violent and bloody pogroms directed at forward castes in TN in the 80s?

We feel our pain foremost. However deep our empathy our neighbor's pain seldom compares to our's. Granted libraries weren't burnt and such. Temples were violated, sacred threads cut in public, priests slapped around and humiliated in public. So, while there may not have been violent, bloody pogroms of the kind experienced by the SL Tamils, there were many atrocities visited upon the TN's "forward castes" by hooligans that the rest of TN society remained silent about or even approved. The narratives of the Sinhalese and the TN politicians are eerily similar in nature, with a lot more in common than different.

Temples were violated, sacred threads cut in public, priests slapped around and humiliated in public.

That's right, these weren't aberrations. You can't go to Madurai without hearing the sound of priests being slapped in the sancta sanctorum by thread cutting dravidianists. The anti-Brahmin sentiment is so strong that the only jobs open to them are the Chief Minister spot

We feel our pain foremost.

Yes we all feel the pain we have been subjected to. Some bawl enough for 100. You are a troll.

You are a troll.

Based on past comments from that IP, possible. Don't feed.

Some find it easier to empathize with, relate to, and pontificate on matters distant to them while condoning (and even benefiting from) similar events in their own neighborhood. And louielouiecypher's postings here confirm he is one such. Louielouiecypher, you are a cypher and it takes something for a cypher to call someone else names.

All right, enough. Back on topic, please.

Irony,

Let's drop the name calling. Being a part of the "forward" caste, I think you are exaggerating some small incident. I would like to see some data to back up your claims.

People beat other people up for reasons besides religion, you do know that right? And if we went by your logic, at some point every religion / caste has been subjected to atrocities.

So, while there may not have been violent, bloody pogroms of the kind experienced by the SL Tamils, there were many atrocities visited upon the TN's "forward castes" by hooligans that the rest of TN society remained silent about or even approved.

I don't understand your point at all. Hooligans (for hire or for the heck of it) are everywhere in India and they slap around or humiliate anybody who sticks out: a mini-skirted girl out alone at 9 p.m.; the lone parents of a NRI sitting on a prime piece of property that the local politician is eyeing and wants to acquire at minimal cost; a rural inter-caste/inter-religious love pair; or a hapless priest in a small temple somewhere whose turn it is to be today's scapegoat so people come out to vote in next week's elections. And people remain silent or even 'approve' as in the case of a young, upper class woman attacked in Mumbai late at night several months ago.

But to tell that I, as a non forward caste member of Indian society--along with my family and larger community in India--am 'remaining silent or approving' of atrocities on the forward castes on the scale of SL govt's systematic pogroms is unwise and counterproductive for your cause, when there are no similar systematic bloody pogroms in TN. Forward castes have their legitimate problems today, yes, but I respectfully suggest that you are currently exaggerating. If and when there will be a similar situation, you can draw such a parallel.

Oh, I didn't see that bit about possible troll in time (i take so long to type). Sorry.
Ok, no more feeding the troll on my part.

Isn't it a bit too sweet to ask me to drop the name calling? who started it and what's the reason behind condoning it?

Second, I am not a "forward caste" but my experiences in SL and TN have sensitized me very much to parallels I see between my experiences in SL as a Tamil and institutionalized, discriminatory practices (since the 70s) in TN society and politics. The SL Tamil experience is chronicled, covered by the media and one can argue whether it is sufficient or not but it's there and we can't say the same about what's going on in TN to the same extent. What comes up is dismissed as aberrations, "some small incident", and such and that for me reminds a lot of the hand wringing, apathy, and sheer disinterest on the part of the Sinhalese when they were confronted with what their cohorts practiced against SL Tamils

Sure, every religion/caste has been subject to atrocities and engaged in them (when they had the chance) so what gives the sole focus on what was practiced by the "forward castes" in TN and the blanket silence on the involvement of the rest (save for those at the very bottom)?

the Singhalese in SL too claim the SL Tamils discriminated actively against the Singhalese, benefited disproportionately from the British and colonial period, exercised power far in excess of their representation in society, etc. and the new policies were meant to address those discrepancies. Not that different from what the TN politicos have been advocating as well....

Going back 2 generations, my family has been fluent in English because they attended either Methodist or Jesuit/Catholic schools--english-medium schooling divided higher SES Tamils from lower SES Tamils as well as higher SES Singhalese from lower SES Singhalese.

When my grandmother was attending a Methodist grammar school, she was fined the equivalent for 10 cents for every word she spoke in Tamil. That doesn't really sound like oppression of Singhala speakers to me--it was the climate of colonial-era SL, where English was king because it was the language of the rulers and the only sure route to elevating your SES and economic opportunity.

crap,

I missed the troll indicator as well.

my sincere apologies people.

Having served with FM Slim in Burma from late 44 on, I can testify to the efficacy of Piat-launched solid-state LATTE shaped charges against all variants of the Tiger, up to and including the Mark 6.

Best way to take a Tiger, BTW, was to bounce the LATTE in from a distance of 50M or less and holistically realign his "soft underbelly".

The weapons system was so effective that tigers became an endangered species.

The use of solid-state LATTE munitions was subsequently prohibited in the PETA Protocols to the Fourth Geneva Conventions.

#37 muralimannered
what is exactly was/is your metric for 'going to the dogs.' And are you suggesting that there was a monolithic Sri-Lankan culture of genocide?

--> From what I remember, that(monolithic SL culture of genocide) was the coverage in tamil magazines and newspapers at that time. I made the 'going to the dogs' comment with respect to the 'cleansing'. I used to watch SL TV and listen to radio(whatever we got at that time) and appreciated their programmes more than the lousy DD.

By that standard, nebulous as it is, could you not say that in TN, at least judging from the movies, there is a culture that glorifies high caste-low caste rape, senseless maulings and suicide as a means of escaping soluble problems?

--> You can use the same movies to call TN a culture that operates on a different set of physical laws(rajni movies), obsession with fair skin(almost every tamil movie) too.

#39 muralimannered

What a good little nationalist you are! Please remind us all of this sentiment, the next time a natural disaster occurrs in the TN area.

--> This is a discussion on a man(or woman) made problem that should stayed as an internal SL issue. My interest is strictly about wasting indian soldiers lives on a faulty foreign policy.
Nice going, though, with the holier-than-thou attitude.

In fact, I would encourage you to inform all of your acquaintances of your rather cavalier attitude towards human suffering--it should give them ample time to prepare for the day of their greatest need in which you giggle and shamble away.

---> I bow to thee on the breadth of your empathy. You are a greater man(or woman) for it. Now, there, satisfied ?

Hooligans (for hire or for the heck of it) are everywhere in India and they slap around or humiliate anybody who sticks out

Would you agree it's worse when those hooligans are the body of political parties and sanctioned by party leaders and protected by the institutions?
It was despicable for the Congress party leaders to encourage/participate in/lead a pogrom against the Sikhs during the riots in 1984, it was so for the Sinhala leaders to do the same in 1983 (and earlier too), and likewise for the DK regime (and its derivatives) in the TN of 1970 and later.

there are no similar systematic bloody pogroms in TN.

Bloody, it isn't. I agree. Does it have to be bloody to get our attention? The discriminatory policies of the Sinhala govt were already strangulating the SL Tamil upper and middle classes, leading many in my family to leave the country for education abroad. The riots only made it worse and for a larger section of the population. Conflagrations, blood-letting, etc. may signify a turn for the worse but it's equally possible to kill something by slowly raising the temperature (blocking university admissions, etc. as was the case in SL and in TN, though for different populaces; funny thing is, the ones enforcing and benefiting from those policies in TN seem to be the most vehement in their support for the SL Tamil cause, as I've been trying to point out.)

SM Intern:

Is Irony == TamBrahm ??

He/She brought up this weird theory that In Tamil movies it is very common for an 'upper caste' fair skinned person to rape low caste women and then gloat over it.. And now people are using the same theory to justify something else.. I have seen many movies and have not come across anyone movie in which the castes of the protagonists are explicitly mentioned unless it is for "glorifying".. This guy is a troll comparing the so called "forward caste" discrimination in academia in Tamilnadu to the ethnic cleansing / aerial bombing in Lanka etc..

I think the public in Tamilnadu do support Srilankan Tamils, I have not heard any major political leader siding with the Sinhala leaders. There are some parties like the MDMK (Vaiko) / PMK (Vanniyars) / Viduthalai Siruthaigal (Dalit party) who explicitly support LTTE and DMK (the current ruling party) is ambivalent.. It is only the ADMK and in particular Jayalalitha who is against LTTE and even she supports Srilankan Tamils for their 'legitimate rights'. Even the latest actor / party in town of Vijayakanth is ambivalent about LTTE. He became famous for his movie "Captain Prabhakaran" and has named his son Prabhakaran..

I was a kid who grew up in suburban Chennai in the 80s when the air is full of pro-Tamil eelam sentiments.. Slowly violent incidents / shootings / spillovers from the trouble in Lanka took its toll. and Rajiv Gandhi assasination was the last straw for any public claim of support for LTTE but I believe there is still a lot of underground support..

Is Irony == TamBrahm ??

No.

Is Irony == TamBrahm ?? No.

Ok, Thanks.

That's what we're here for. :)

Ha, ha, caste wars at SM, ya gotta love it. I'm a TamBrahm (will someone standarize the spelling of this monicker, please?) and I agree that it trivializes the historical treatment of the "non-forward" community by the TamBrahm community to have the post-DK/DMK experience of the TamBrahms equated to it.

Yes, "kudimis" were cut off, people like my uncle were chased down the street and had their sacred threads ("poonals") cut, and getting admissions into a TN college has been a real b*#@% for the TamBrahms since 1967 or so... But great suffering and ignominy? That's just plain absurd.

I clearly remember the arrogant nastiness with which many TamBrahms treated those outside their caste. TamBrahms were terrified of merely making physical contact with the others outside the home, let alone having them come inside. Every TamBrahm expected to be addressed as "Sami" or "Amma" (i.e. "Lord" and "Mother").

And when the TamBrahms gained entry into the English-language educational and government system in the late 19th c., they monopolized it. Honorable individual exceptions to the rule existed, I'm sure, but TamBrahms (as a group) to this day have not apologized for their historical contempt and nastiness towards the other castes. Whether they also dominated in an economic sense is less clear.

All that being as it may, my own point of view is that TamBrahms are bona-fide Tamils, albeit with their own sub-culture and dialect. And as long as they are willing to acknowledge they are just one group amongst the crowd of communities and be neigbourly I suppose they have a right to be treated in a neighbourly fashion.

BTW, will someone please explain to me the etymology of the term "forward community" in English and/or Tamil? There's some kind of curious PC/sensitive/semantic coding thing going on which I don't quite understand.

BTW, will someone please explain to me the etymology of the term "forward community" in English and/or Tamil? There's some kind of curious PC/sensitive/semantic coding thing going on which I don't quite understand.

I think the Indian constitution provides for reservations / affirmative action to the "socially and educationally backward" classes/castes and I believe the opposite is taken as "socially and educationally forward classes/castes and hence the name "forward castes"..

Coming back to the blog,

Ranjith Soysa, spokesperson for the Melbourne-based Society for Peace, Unity and Human Rights, (SPUR) told the Asian Tribune that “India had to pay heavily for her stupidity.” He added: “This shows that India cannot be trusted as a reliable friend, partner or neighbour. Our politicians like Ranil Wickremesinghe who run to India asking for help should open their eyes and realize at least now that Indians will always be unreliable cut-throats. India has not yet learned from history. India is still playing the double game.”

This is similar to how a Russian who fought in Afghanistan in 80s / Afghan communists would refer to the American intervention in Afghanistan during 80s.. when America supported the "jihadis" against the communists / Soviets.

India supported the various Tamil groups at that time because that was what made sense then..

pass the roti:

I looked at your full post--excuse my ignorance--but I didn't get the thrust of your post--who is wrong here--what is the "disaster"--deeply puzzled....

yeah... SPUR is not your best source of unbiased information, there are alot of partisan groups here that purport to be for peace in Lanka but parrot the same tired old sinhala nationalist claptrap.

muralimannered, your views are very much appreciated and informative