I wonder how the songs would sound...

Oh my, it's so cute! this is right up my alley...I worry about Manipur, though.

Now if Indian actors can learn to kick ass like Jet Li and Jackie Chan....
Or make historical epics with the production values of a Crouching Tiger..

More about Jin Shan Shan here and here, but without the adorable photo :-D.

You hit it with that headline, Anna!

The pic is great. Very pretty.

wonderful! There used to be quite a strong interest in BN from Japan, given the attendance in BK (Chennai) and stateside camps, but China (as the economists say) is the real emerging market for classical Indian arts.

I just hope they're strong on the fundamentals and not the time-collapse, six-months-till-arangetram, think-of-all-156-costume-changes! style that seems to predominate in the US.

Interesting...I didn't know that chinese were crazy abt desi stuff though I did know the japanese are gung-ho abt rajnikant. Btw as an aside mutineers check out this "indo-japanese-american" in indian outfit.

mm@#7: BN = Bharata Natyam. BK = ?

@10
bk=burger king. don't you guys know anything about your colonies? :)

mm@#7: BN = Bharata Natyam. BK = ?

Bharatanatyam Kollege? :D

Kalakshetra!!!

::

What do I win? :D

What do I win? :D

A round of applause and approbation, of course. Wow, that was a solid gold post, Anna.

They look pukka desi.

What do I win? :D

Oh, Anna.

It's a reference which shouldn't be so obscure, given the incredible contributions of the founders of Bharata Kalaanjali to BN and the arts in general, but BK does not, sadly, refer to Kalakshetra (the august institution founded in part by Rukmini Devi Arundale)

You will be happy to note, that V.P. Dhananjayan, one half of the founding husband-and-wife pair, is a full-blooded Mallu and has been subtly and exqusitely tweaking the much-too-orthodox noses of the BN elite in Chennai for several decades!

Cultural cross-pollination is great, and personally I always love it when non-desis enjoy aspects of desi culture. If they become expert in something (as this lady might be) then all the better. China and India are two ancient cultures with much to offer the world and each other (in fact via Buddhism those links have been alive for ages). That being said, politically and militarily China will be a bigger and bigger threat to India as time goes on and China becomes stronger and stronger. Indian policy-makers and diplomats better be preparing themselves for the challenges ahead.

and because I am such a fan...and because this post was inspired by the picture:

here's VP well into his 50s...proof that Kalaripayyatu keeps the limbs limber.

People to people contacts & cultural exchanges are great, but I hope that China morphs into a better neighbor over the next few decades. Otherwise we can expect to be a subject people once again

Amitabh on August 9, 2007 08:27 PM · Direct link
That being said, politically and militarily China will be a bigger and bigger threat to India as time goes on and China becomes stronger and stronger. Indian policy-makers and diplomats better be preparing themselves for the challenges ahead

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I am pretty sure that as time goes on India too will get equally stronger and the economic and military gap will reduce significantly.(The Indian Navy is already ahead) Just wait for the Indo US nuclear deal to come into effect... Indian nuclear scientists might start producing weapons grade uranium by the truck loads ;-) down in the basement. Ok not quite but enough of a minimum credible deterrent to dissuade china from any (mis)adventures.

Hehe, China gets desi arts, and India gets really bad Chinese food. Somehow I think someone's getting the short end of the stick. :D

We have millions of confused, middle-aged, New Year’s Resolution-keepers all across this land, taking Yoga at Bally fitness and the like, trying not to fall over when they’re attempting an Ardha Chandrasana. ;)

I fall out of Vrksasana :(

Don't feel so bad, Camille. I fell out of Savasana.

Also, Anna, I think that "Hindi Chini Behen Behen" is the name of an upcoming Bollywood version of "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang".

/tall story teller

India gets really bad Chinese food

Chinese food in india rocks. I prefer it to American Chinese food big time.

here's VP well into his 50s...proof that Kalaripayyatu keeps the limbs limber.

Mirror, mirror on the wall, whose limbs are the limbest of all?

:D

camille:India gets really bad Chinese food Pravin:Chinese food in india rocks. I prefer it to American Chinese food big time.

The question of Chinese food is yet another divide between DBDs & ABDs

Chinese food in india rocks. I prefer it to American Chinese food big time.

Don't feel so bad, Camille. I fell out of Savasana.

without falling asleep. ;)

India gets really bad Chinese food

Eh, I was traveling in SL a few years back (on my way to Kandy) and stopped at a restaurant in the middle of nowhere. As is usual in SL, there's a chinese section on EVERY menu in EVERY restaraunt (that doesn't cater to french pastry fanatics). It was incredibly hot, non-sugary, and not dumbed down for American palates. Exactly the opposite of most generic 'chinese' food i've had in the US.

While leaving, i happened to over hear some Cantonese being shouted at the rear of the building, and happened upon 3 cooks (seemingly straight out of Guangdong), smoking cigs and arguing about something.

To anyone who knows, do the mudras used in Thai & Balinese classical dance match up with those used in bharatha natayam?

The question of Chinese food is yet another divide between DBDs & ABDs

And thus I learn something new everyday. But seriously, please explain - is it like general cooking method differences or like specific dishes that are found in one but not the other.

Also, what cuisine does Chop Suey Masala technically belong to? (I like it, just don't know if it's more Indian or more American).

It would be interesting if the Chinese bharata natyam experts choreographed a popular Chinese epic like the Monkey King/Journey West

As a (former?) Bharata Natyam dancer myself, I'd love to say that dance bridges all cultures... which in a way it does... but unfortunately I don't think mudras will effectively further communication between India and China over Himachal Pradesh. Who knows though, maybe this will lead to less antagonistic relations...? The adorable kids certainly help =)
I wonder what the Chinese call Himachal Pradesh, btw...

I just hope they're strong on the fundamentals and not the time-collapse, six-months-till-arangetram, think-of-all-156-costume-changes! style that seems to predominate in the US.

Agreed. But Muralimannered, I must confess, for my 12 years of BN training (albeit in the US) I was never taught anything about BK. *looks ashamed*

oops.. meant Arunachal Pradesh, not Himachal... sorry for the gaffe. =(

To anyone who knows, do the mudras used in Thai & Balinese classical dance match up with those used in bharatha natayam?

none whatsoever.

The many viniyogams (sets of mudras--been so long i can't remember the exact number, but it's 80+ sets at least) were developed to express nearly anything you'd care to in life--highly stylized and forming a sort of living/moving hieroglyph.

here's VP well into his 50s...proof that Kalaripayyatu keeps the limbs limber.

Agreed. But Muralimannered, I must confess, for my 12 years of BN training (albeit in the US) I was never taught anything about BK. *looks ashamed*

as with any art form, there are many more teachers than there are students.

Also, people like to point out that there are various schools/styles, which is true, but the basic (and only meaningful) divide is between good and bad.

If your standard is good, it is really instantly recognizeable to a seasoned dancer. Many US-based teachers (and i'm going to offend someone, surely) not related somewhat to the branches emanating from Kalakshetra, tend to underemphasize the basic Adavus and skip straight ahead to some next-level abhinaya.

is it like general cooking method differences or like specific dishes that are found in one but not the other

Pingpong,
Both.Personally, I think the Chinese food in India is far, far tastier than Chinese food in the US -which I find too bland( Except for Dim Sum which is better here !) .Desi Chinese is spicier with stronger flavors- more garlic and definitely more chilli.Also there are unique dishes like "Gobio Manchurian" which are not found anywhere else in the world:-)

err ..typo...that should read "Gobi Manchurian" .Gobi=Cauliflower

Pappu, Iwis you were correct, but The Cheiese submarine force is ahed of India's.

Generally speaking, people in Beijing at least have mostly positive views of India and Indians. They haven't met a lot of Indians, so they are excited whenever the meet someone from India (Of course, you get the most attention if you're white). They think that Indian people are really pretty (But since I don't like stereotypes, I am glad after meeting me they probably think that stereotype is not entirely true). Even in the apartment complex I live in, the salon has photos of Aishwarya Rai on the outside. It is not rare that you see photos of Indian actresses being used to advertise stuff. Some older people will break into Raj Kapoor songs when they learn you are from India. In the cities Yoga studios are pretty common, and once I heard Bollywood music being played in a mall.

I still have sour memories of when my school forced all students (dudes, too) to learn some Bharatnatyam. The hour per week, while not brutal, was pretty weird for most of the boys. I know men do Bharatnatyam also, but did it really have to be forced on ALL students, even momentarily?

Kudos to these Chinese women for their desire to learn and market Bharatanatyam. Cool.

Reminded me of this PJ from Megha: http://www.meghalomania.com/2006/08/30/coffee-time-wisdom/

Do check out her blog...the best !

Yo, why's Chinese food bad? Just 'coz the majority of chinese outlets over here are cheap greasy kind? Desis are cabbies/gas station owners.

btw, is every single newsstand owner in NYC desi?

The hour per week, while not brutal, was pretty weird for most of the boys

Gujudude,

I'm assuming you're mature enough to not buy into the "guy dancing = guy must be gay" meme that has floated around several cultures.

In India, it was for a very long time considered quite out of the norm for men to make their living as BN artists--however now, most 'celebrity' BN teachers are men.

I used to identify with your 'aw cripes, i'm learning dance under duress' feeling (having a BN teacher for a mother)but once i started to learn the theory, history and grasp the impact of BN in pre and post-colonial Desi societies (once-emigrated, twice-emigrated, totally cut off for generations), I wisened up and actually started enjoying it.

Anecdotally, BN doesn't seem to have as great a proportion of gay men as I've observed in Modern and Ballet. When my mom joined a collaboration between BK and a ballet company in middle america, several of the male ballet dancers (i would estimate around 40%) were gay (and not afraid to practice in fishnet unitards). The mostly Chennai-sourced male BN dancers were of course taken aback at first, as were their dancing wives, but it did not hinder the production in any way.

In fact the widely divergent approaches produced some of the most magnificent dance theatre I've ever seen.

I know men do Bharatnatyam also, but did it really have to be forced on ALL students, even momentarily

Again dude, if you feel so torn up over it--go talk to your old school administrators. From what I've heard, Indian teachers (in both public and private schools)could be less than gentle in enforcement of their own policies.

It all depends on perspective and I've seen thousands of people in the US (mostly female but a steady contigent of men who refuse to buy in the odious notion that dancing BN makes you less of a man)literally screaming, clawing and kicking their way into a spot at my mother's dance camp or regular classes.

but i'm guessing you were just too 'macho' to see it as anything else than an imposition on your precious time--during which you were developing a cure for AIDS and solving world hunger, no?

This is amazing. China has historically been cultural isolationists, they got pissed at Bruce Lee for teaching traditional wing chun to the 'Guilo', and I know many that Wing Chun instructors (in the US) that selectively instruct their Chinese and non-Chinese students, in particular those versed in the modified Wing Chun style (a la Hawkins Cheung, who in turn learned from Yip Man)

I wonder if the same thing exists in esoteric arts acadamies within India, my guess is not?

Oh my goodness what an incredibly cute and heartwarming story for a dreary Friday morning.

camille:India gets really bad Chinese food Pravin:Chinese food in india rocks. I prefer it to American Chinese food big time. ...and others

Chinese food is neither authentic in the US nor in India. Each country's culture and palate dictates the taste. Hell Chinese food in China from two different regions isn't the same. After living 3 years in Hong Kong and mainland China I have no qualms with declaring I can't stand most of it. The kind US especially is gagworthy. I'll take some spice in it if I have to and I like veg manchurian curry but that's about it :-)

After living 3 years in Hong Kong and mainland China I have no qualms with declaring I can't stand most of it

You lived in mainland china? Where abouts? Shanghai? The Guangzhou district?

You lived in mainland china? Where abouts? Shanghai? The Guangzhou district?

I actually preferred and enjoyed the food in Hong Kong but there are so many influences there and the food tastes different. I lived in Tsim Sha Tsui and got spoiled. I actually enjoyed the Indonesian and Malay influenced Chinese food more. On mainland I lived in Dong Guan in Guangdong province and wasn't always happy with the food. My palate just never caught up.

By the time I made it to Shanghai I was just mostly homesick for "regular" food whatever that is and sick of Chinese food in general. Guangzhou was good, I had a few bad experiences and I always chose to come back home for a meal at the end of the day so I didn't eat a lot of meals in Guangzhou but I was just generally sick of the food after all that time. I really just never got used to it and the "oh it's adventerous" and the spirit of eating "anything" wore of fairly quickly.

Chinese food is neither authentic in the US nor in India. Each country's culture and palate dictates the taste. Hell Chinese food in China from two different regions isn't the same

I am aware none of it is authentic. ALl I know is I didn't care to eat Chinese food when I was a kid. When I went to India, it tasted better for me. I got back, and it still tastes like a diabetic nightmare. I prefer Thai food in the U.S. to Chinese American food by a big margin.

As far as Punjab, I can't vouch for the Chinese food there. My experience comes from eating Chinese food in Hyderabad and Madras. I heard the Chinese food in Bengal is good.

I prefer Thai food in the U.S. to Chinese American food by a big margin.

As far as Punjab, I can't vouch for the Chinese food there.

The best (and healthiest I think) Chinese food, in my opinion is made by the Buddhist restaurants (like Happy Family, on Atlantic avenue off the 10 freeway in LA) I'm not sure if there are other places like this in the states

It will be funny if Chinese start Bollywood dancing schools. Bollywood dancing looks like people in the Michael JAckson thriller video OD'd on speed. I find it really amusing to look a the background dancers in these bollywood songs. They got the funniest smiles plastered on their faces while doing their fast herky jerky moves.

Ugh, it tastes like a noodley mess from a not-very-tasty Rajasthani dhaba. [no disrespect to Rajasthani cuisine intended here]

It's alright Camille. Unassuming Rajasthanis are too secure in the superiority of their food to be bothered by the khich khich of their ostentatious northern neighbors:) Someday when I have the money and the visas I'll open a pure play Rajasthani restaurant in Manhattan and make them Americans question the primacy of French and Italian cuisines.

Interestingly the tastiest Indian style chicken curry I have had in my almost ten years in America was an order I bought from an outdoor stall at a taste of Chinatown festival on Mott Street in Manhattan.

I'm assuming you're mature enough to not buy into the "guy dancing = guy must be gay" meme that has floated around several cultures.

Absolutely. I'm was a garba and raas/dandia fanatic back in the day.

but i'm guessing you were just too 'macho' to see it as anything else than an imposition on your precious time--during which you were developing a cure for AIDS and solving world hunger, no?

Huh?

Seriously, why do people keep jumping to "So, oh, you must have been [insert wild assumption here]". Let me add to the story above - it was in 3rd, 4th, and a little bit of 5th standard when us kids weren't really interested in Bharatanatyam. The teacher was a bit of a disciplinarian and we had to do this in our school uniforms that weren't designed for dancing comfort. The dudes had an issue with this as tailors had a bad habit of stitching 'tight' uniforms for guys, especially the shorts and pants, while the girls were told to bring bottoms of Punjabi dresses to wear under their uniforms that was quite comfortable.

I have no issues dancing and frankly, I usually rock my ass off in most places. Please keep your theories to yourself about what you assume about others without knowing them. And no, I wasn't developing a cure for AIDS or solving world hunger. I was in primary schooling.I was a kid who just didn't like a dance class forced on me (like many of my other fellow students including girls).

It really is that simple. Why does everything have to turn into an e-bitch fest? Can't we just discuss things without slinging mud and 'calling people out' without knowing an ounce about them? Did I say men who did BN were gay or even ask for a comparison between that and Ballet, and the relative gayness of it? No. It doesn't matter. The resistence to the dance was because it was being forced ON us, while most weren't interested in it at that age. I've played a part in several school plays and dances (yes, even in dance competitions in India and we were damn good). Being on stage meant we had to wear make up so people could see our 'features'. I even had lipstick slapped on me by a teacher once for a school play.

Sigh...

I have no issues dancing and frankly, I usually rock my ass off in most places.

Can you do a 6-step followed, into a windmill, then a 1990, followed by a freeze, to uprocking then popping & locking, then into liquid style?

This is all well and good, but China is India's biggest competitor and a long-term enemy. The Chinese have a tiem horizon into the centuries and covet Indian land and access to the oceans. We must be ever vigilant against their threats and not be seduced by efforts at cultural cooperation from the Middle Kingdom.

Gujudude,

I assumed because you didn't care to contextualize your statements--with the initial post, all I could see was that you resented the fact that it was forced on boys, that it was especially uncomfortable for boys and that you resented it. What am i supposed to take from that except the old 'dancing is fruity' saw? Please don't assume that we're all clairvoyant here.

you made no mention of girls feeling the same discomfort or even why...now that you have, bravo.

and btw, makeup being applied to people who do live performing arts is not remarkable in the least--it's necessary and a very common practice across cultures. If you dont, all the audience ends up seeing is a jumble of features (which, if you cared to know the most superficial fact about BN is highly important) and no expression/emotion is translated.

It is also quite normal for boys to learn BN--frontin' like it's some great penance from the gods of injustice is a bit much.

Can you do a 6-step followed, into a windmill, then a 1990, followed by a freeze, to uprocking then popping & locking, then into liquid style?

I used to do the first part, but after a shoulder dislocation and surgery 10 years ago, I stick to the popping and locking shit. And garba, raas, and bhangra that only a Gujarati can butcher oh, so beautifully :). I also like to indulge in the 'lawn mower', 'sprinkler', 'shopping cart' etc. Fun stuff.

Back to the focus:

In November 2006, China and India had a verbal spat over claim of the north-east Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh. India claimed that China was occupying 38,000 square kilometres of its territory in Kashmir, while China claimed the whole of Arunachal Pradesh as its own. Recently, China denied the application for visa from an IAS officer in Arunachal Pradesh, saying that since Arunachal Pradesh is a territory of China, he/she won’t need a visa to visit his/her own country.

They just need to call the present lines of control the 'boundary' and move on. Neither side is going to give ground and aren't willing to take any by force. Just get it over with and move on.

are you saying you could windmill? have you heard of NYC breakers or RSC?

MM,

Why not just ask for clarification instead of using the 'jump to conclusion mat'?

and btw, makeup being applied to people who do live performing arts is not remarkable in the least--it's necessary and a very common practice across cultures. If you dont, all the audience ends up seeing is a jumble of features (which, if you cared to know the most superficial fact about BN is highly important) and no expression/emotion is translated.

Yes, I know. Which is why I didn't have a problem. If felt different because I wasn't used to it layers of it, but once I saw the picture and video (again, as a child/student) it made sense. Lighting, makeup, whatever is used to enhance the effect of visual performing arts.

Why not just ask for clarification instead of using the 'jump to conclusion mat'?

ahh, my desi friend, it is my jump-to-conclusions, quick-to-bite-the-cyanide-capsule, and immolate-myself-for-the-sake-of-Tamil Lemurian blood.

but really, apologies for the jumping. I get the "fruity dancing" attitude from so many people that I sometimes impute malicious intent to innocent, uncontextualized statements.

Also, what cuisine does Chop Suey Masala technically belong to? (I like it, just don't know if it's more Indian or more American).

I can't speak for Chop Suey Masala, but chop suey is definitely a wholly American invention. It was invented by Chinese immigrants to the US to appeal to American palates in NYC. I just wrote about this topic, so now I'm totally curious about chop suey masala! I've had Desi Chinese in Jackson Heights and was more intrigued than impressed, but the potential is enormous...

GujjuDude/Muralimannered,
If you have not yet resolved your argument , may I suggest a good 1970s style dance showdown (Garba Vs BN?) like this?

Oooo. Love Thai food. Although, many of the dishes are also sweet.

Camille, are you talking about Thai desserts? The Thai food (which I absolutely love) I've eaten had enough heat to knock my socks off and easily matched any hot, spicy Indian food.

GujuDude, I wish I went to the school you went. I would have loved to be given an opportunity to learn BN, or for that matter, any other Indian classical dance. But I can see your point about it being forced upon all - though, in primary and middle school (in India) that I went to, many activities were mandatory and we all had to participate whether we liked it or not.

I think we all make assumption about each other based on what we read, but the key thing is that we should be ready to revise those assumptions. :)

are you saying you could windmill? have you heard of NYC breakers or RSC?

Well, I starting to learn it. Was just another college kid who was learning stuff when I actually dislocated my shoulder trying to do one. Which told me that "GujuDude - you're not cut out for this". Though it was my dumbass for not making sure I didn't drift on to carpet from the smooth stone floor. Friction has a bad way of stopping things with momentum. (I've had shoulder issues before that, so it was likely that my shoulder just gave way. It was already subluxating.) Yes, I've heard of the Rock Steady Crew and New York City breakers.

HMF, how long have you been doing this stuff?

MM, we're cool. Ask before you shoot ;)

Launching some (slight) tangents through this comment.

One of the issues that comes up in retrospective Western commentaries of the India-China relationship during the early 1950s is that India had assumed for itself the role of the 'badaa bhai', or at least, that Indian Foreign Office mandarins (aha!) had begun thinking like the 'badaa sahibs' who had then recently departed - so that China, after its defining national event in 1949, two years after India's - was seen as a country that might need some tutelage in the ways of the world, and that India would take it under its wing till China had properly grown up. It is this attitude that is said to have, on the one hand grated on China, and on the other, encouraged a belligerent attitude in India, leading to the debacle of 1962. I'm just curious, if, had the catchphrase 'HCBB'- of those days, been slightly less androcentric - and the culture less patriarchal - on both sides - would history have unfolded differently? And for all the real badi behens reading this now who might have been around back then, or know something about the zeitgeist of the time - how did such an androcentric phrase go over? Or even now, how does it strike you? Of course, the androcentrism in the phrasing merely reflects the larger androcentrism in the culture, just like 'fraternal' is a relationship we do not restrict only to males.

Both China and India face female deficits in their populations - in each case there is about a 6% excess of males - so both countries have a 'male character' to them, (and in that sense, bhai-bhai may capture the fraternal feeling more accurately!) - what is this going to do for their future relationship? Is there going to be a continued subsurface belligerence in the relationship? I looked at the population of China vs the combined populations of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh over the last 50 years - and China outnumbers the combined populations of IPB right until 1999-2000, when they pass it slightly. However, within the next 15-20 years, India alone will have a larger population than China, and will quite clearly become an actual, not just imagined badaa bhai, at least in this sense. What then? An India that is larger than China - population wise - will it also have the cultural footprint, the economic strength and the military muscle - both soft and hard power - to go with it? Or will it need its own badaa bhai?! :)

chachaji@69:

Badaa bhai is watching you!

Pappau, Sorry for the typo (bed time) What I meant to say was: I wish you were correct about India's superior Navy, but the Chinese have a superior submarine force. India has to catch up fast to be a deterrent to China.

When I was ten I told my mother I liked Chinese food soo much I could eat it every day. Then I said that I was going to marry a Chinese girl when I got big. She looked at me got mad and told me to shut-up. :))

A couple of summers ago I was staying with my aunt in Alabama, and we went to my her friend's daughter's arangetram. Turns out her Guru Ji was this white, blonde-haired woman who had studied BN in India for years and years and this little desi girl had been under her tutelage from start to finish in Birmingham, AL. It was odd, but cool to see this white woman who had studied BN and was teaching it back to desi kids. And it worked really well.

Pappau, Sorry for the typo (bed time) What I meant to say was: I wish you were correct about India's superior Navy, but the Chinese have a superior submarine force. India has to catch up fast to be a deterrent to China.

Never fear, we are getting some state of the art subs

As far as Punjab, I can't vouch for the Chinese food there. My experience comes from eating Chinese food in Hyderabad and Madras. I heard the Chinese food in Bengal is good.

There's a Chinese restaurant in Ludhiana that is fabulous. The owner is Chinese, raised in Punjab, and the restaurant's been there for at least 20 years.

Unassuming Rajasthanis are too secure in the superiority of their food to be bothered by the khich khich of their ostentatious northern neighbors:)

I have no issues dancing and frankly, I usually rock my ass off in most places.

I used to do the first part, but after a shoulder dislocation and surgery 10 years ago, I stick to the popping and locking shit. And garba, raas, and bhangra that only a Gujarati can butcher oh, so beautifully :)

Camille, are you talking about Thai desserts? The Thai food (which I absolutely love) I've eaten had enough heat to knock my socks off and easily matched any hot, spicy Indian food.

Both China and India face female deficits in their populations - in each case there is about a 6% excess of males

For those interested in knowing more on the hakka experience in India, Canadian author Kwai Nun Lin has some charming snapshots in her book of short stories released under the TSAR (Toronto South Asian Review) banner. She read at the masala mehndi masti festival a few weeks back. Here's an excerpt from the Palm Leaf.

A year after he stepped off the ship at Kidderpore, Father opened his first shoe shop, John Hing, at 75, Bentinck Street. Two years later, he opened his second shop at 86, Bow Bazaar Street. Three years after that, he opened his third in shop 26, New Market. The summer of 1942 was hot and dry, the monsoon late in coming. Calcuttans chose between sleepless nights indoors, drenched in sweat, or sleepless nights on rooftops and verandahs, bothered by mosquitoes and flies. Mother sat outside John Hing, with a glass of lassi and a palm leaf fan. She waved her fan at Mrs. Wong. Mrs. Wong sat in front of her shoe shop, Yun Fa, with her five daughters. Mrs. Wong waved back.

proud of you for citing the pacha sheela, ANNA :)

Although, for the record guys, a guy who is comfortable in his own skin/dancing is infinitely more attractive.

I never understood this. A guy who danced like crap should do one of two things:

1. Get better
2. Stop

A guy who danced like crap should do one of two things:

1. Get better
2. Stop

Or you can do what I did with total geek intensity and practice practice practice on DDR. Of course, me being a GUY (in the Dave Barry sense, as opposed to a MAN), I soon switched from trying for grace to seeing how quickly I could do a 180. I can now do two 180s in 1 second flat (yes, I asked my fellow Jackass members friends to time me).

Both China and India face female deficits in their populations - in each case there is about a 6% excess of males

Looking at this from a heterosexual lens, yes that's a problem, but for gay and bisexual men, I guess it'd be a bonanza. ;)
BTW, does anyone know if gays and lesbians have more freedom in China than in India, or are both countries equally unreceptive?

Unassuming Rajasthanis are too secure in the superiority of their food to be bothered by the khich khich of their ostentatious northern neighbors:) Someday when I have the money and the visas I'll open a pure play Rajasthani restaurant in Manhattan and make them Americans question the primacy of French and Italian cuisines.

Posterity, as a Punjabi who grew up in Rajasthan, I love both cuisines. Though I haven't tried too many Rajasthani dishes, I'll take daal-baati-churma over rajma-chawal (sacrilege!!) any day. :)

I never understood this. A guy who danced like crap should do one of two things: 1. Get better 2. Stop

pingpong, a good friend of mine used to play DDR for hours as her "workout" at the local arcade. She said it was way cheaper than joining the gym :)

BTW, does anyone know if gays and lesbians have more freedom in China than in India, or are both countries equally unreceptive?

From what I know, China is basically totally ambivalent: often called "no approval, no disapproval, no promotion" - gay people are not prohibited from sexual activities, but if found out, they are not protected from persecution, and nobody, gay practitioner or otherwise, goes out of their way to draw attention to anything to do with the gay.

I suppose it's the Chinese equivalent of "Don't ask, don't tell".

pingpong, a good friend of mine used to play DDR for hours as her "workout" at the local arcade. She said it was way cheaper than joining the gym :)

Totally agree. I lost a few kilos that way myself. But my feet and shins hurt at the end.

On the other hand, I know people who complained that it was too tiring to sustain, and they now play DDR ONLINE!

well..you can totally dance like crap, but if you do it CONFIDENTLY,

Camille, do you mean confident like this? ;) :)

well..you can totally dance like crap, but if you do it CONFIDENTLY,

Camille, do you mean confident like this? ;) :)

How about this hoary old chestnut?

"The worst is going out to dance with your guy and then having him pull the "I don't dance" card."

And why's that? Is there something wrong with not dancing when you haven't practiced? Conversely, the worst is being egged on by some girl to go on the dance floor when you know (and everyone else you know, knows) you look like a complete idiot.

Damn, I just searched for bad dancing on Youtube (It's Friday evening people), and found these utter gems:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RiJQSS9YI8w
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7SnubPrh8ZQ

Also, Camille, where would you put Daler Mehndi on the dance-a-tron scale?

HMF@86, this video changed my life.

http://www.videojug.com/film/dance-moves-an-emergency-guide-for-men

Seriously people, it's also an immensely fun how-to guide on how to annoy your date if you don't like her.

Thanks, guys. Next time I'll know not to open my stupid mouth and open a can of bad-dancing-worms :P

And why's that? Is there something wrong with not dancing when you haven't practiced? Conversely, the worst is being egged on by some girl to go on the dance floor when you know (and everyone else you know, knows) you look like a complete idiot.

No, there's nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying, it's sad/lonely to go out with your guy -- specifically to dance -- and then have him cop out on you.

True, if he didn't make it clear that he's not good, and has no desire to become good then yes, you have a right to complain, so long as you didn't lay the pressure on before hand.

Personally, I think the aphorism "dance like no one is watching" is somewhat stupid, why stop there, and just "dance when no one is watching"

No, there's nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying, it's sad/lonely to go out with your guy -- specifically to dance -- and then have him cop out on you.

but it's far worse, as a guy, to develop a 'rep' as a fearsome dancer--and then watch this backfire as invitations to go out evaporate in the wake of your fearsome reputation, "ummm...yeah...i wanted you to come out but friend xxxyyy is trying to mack on this guy...and you would intimidate him out of dancing with her...so..."

A couple of summers ago I was staying with my aunt in Alabama, and we went to my her friend's daughter's arangetram. Turns out her Guru Ji was this white, blonde-haired woman who had studied BN in India for years and years and this little desi girl had been under her tutelage from start to finish in Birmingham, AL. It was odd, but cool to see this white woman who had studied BN and was teaching it back to desi kids. And it worked really well.

Likewise, my Kathak guruji is white (and blond) and studied under Chitresh Das for almost thirty years. I'm pleasantly surprised at how Indian her mannerisms are sometimes. =)

The worst is going out to dance with your guy and then having him pull the "I don't dance" card.

I sent a note about all this to a non-desi, non-Chinese guy who used to live in Beijing. He had this to say:

I'm an innocent bystander in this discussion, but I got the strong impression in Beijing, from Indians and Chinese, that the relationship, both govt to govt and between the peoples, is far more nuanced and in some respects strained, than people in the west understand or could guess. And of course, it stretches back centuries. I do believe there are peoples and cultures with whom South Asians feel more sympatico, than with the Chinese; by the same point, some South Asian (and of course, Western) cultural traits and characteristics just naturally make Chinese grind their teeth

And yet, the rubbish in the west about these two emerging economic powers posing econ threat to each other, is rubbish; and the military threat they pose to each other (like any two strong neighbors) is at the risk of being overstated and fanned by the west.

(I linked to this SM posting here: http://www.sajaforum.org/2007/08/china-the-beiji.html)

umm.. being chinese, would there be enough T & A required for indian dances? I mean, these are not meant to be performed by excessively lean women, and everyone knows that chinese women, while quite pretty and shapely otherwise, fall a bit short by indian standards as far as T&A are concerned..

I do that a lot. I hate dancing in public. I will dance goofily in the office or home if I feel like it

everyone knows that chinese women, while quite pretty and shapely otherwise, fall a bit short by indian standards as far as T&A are concerned..

Sree, thanks for the alternate perspective -- I was under the impression that the relationship is more nuanced as well. At least, among my parents' generation, there seems to be a wide variety of attitudes and feelings re: China and the Chinese. That said, I think pop culture tends to cross borders, and with it, other (less pop) cultural features. Just as hip hop is popular in Korea, it doesn't (really) surprise me that BN is popular in areas of China.

by the same point, some South Asian (and of course, Western) cultural traits and characteristics just naturally make Chinese grind their teeth

This is very mutual. One thing I absolutely hate about the Chinese culture is their bullshit traditional medicine...which is single-handedly leading to the extinction of several rare animals IN INDIA. I'm not knocking accupuncture, or their herbal stuff, but medicines based on rare animal parts (whether the medications work or not is irrelevant) is barbaric, harmful, and has got to stop.

she looks a bit like Helen don't you think?

The picture is soooo cute. I sent the link to my mum. She's been quite involved with the Bharat Natyam 'scene' in our country for quite a while and is regularly asked to play in the orchestra during dance performances. On another note she reads Sepia sometimes.

Oh, and a guy who dances badly but is enjoying himself is a lot better than a guy who dances at all.

Hu Shih, Chinese Ambassador to the US (1938-42) articulated concern over Indian "cultural imperialsim" in China in this paper:
http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~mrl/HuShih/

This is a quote, I can't seem to find it in the paper above, that is attributed to him:
“India Conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border”

There's always been a concern about oustide ideas, though my bet is that American evangelical Christianity has probably replaced Buddhism as the primary concern for the PROC. I doubt that India inspires any anxiety in Beijing today....

I sent a note about all this to a non-desi, non-Chinese guy who used to live in Beijing. He had this to say:

I'm an innocent bystander in this discussion, but I got the strong impression in Beijing, from Indians and Chinese, that the relationship, both govt to govt and between the peoples, is far more nuanced and in some respects strained, than people in the west understand or could guess. And of course, it stretches back centuries. I do believe there are peoples and cultures with whom South Asians feel more sympatico, than with the Chinese; by the same point, some South Asian (and of course, Western) cultural traits and characteristics just naturally make Chinese grind their teeth
And yet, the rubbish in the west about these two emerging economic powers posing econ threat to each other, is rubbish; and the military threat they pose to each other (like any two strong neighbors) is at the risk of being overstated and fanned by the west.

(I linked to this SM posting here: http://www.sajaforum.org/2007/08/china-the-beiji.html)

In my comment #101 everything below "I sent a note.." is from comment #95

Posterity, as a Punjabi who grew up in Rajasthan, I love both cuisines.

Amit: my mom is a Punjabi who grew up in Ganganagar in Rajasthan - where did you grow up?

Amit: my mom is a Punjabi who grew up in Ganganagar in Rajasthan - where did you grow up?

Fuerza, I grew up in Kota. And you?

Both China and India face female deficits in their populations - in each case there is about a 6% excess of males

Psst! *whisper: it's because they kill their girls! *

This is a common misleading intuition. Having an unbalanced gender ratio need not necessarily be the result of killing/aborting females. For instance: If families, on the average are more likely to stop having kids after a male is born than after a female (to try for a possible male in the future), it is easy to prove that this would result in a clear gender imbalance inspite of each birth being a perfectly fair coin toss in terms of the probability of being male or female.

Inspiration for this story posting's title:

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004033.html#comment107667

"Chinese Bollywood Moves" YouTube video at turbanhead.com:

http://www.turbanhead.com/weblog/2006/04/04/chinese-bollywood-moves/

They not only dance, they sing!

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004482.html#comment141436

desi234 (96), don't miss the boat:

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004163.html#comment116718

Inspiration for this story posting's title:

No, it wasn't. I actually never read that thread. It happens. I had read every comment on this site for over two years, until late last year, when that became impossible, or I would've remembered it.

If it's that important to you to establish that I don't deserve the one comment which appreciated my attempt at being clever, then by all means, everybody, listen up: I wasn't the first to write those words on this site.

The title of this topic sounds racist - Hindi chini behen behen ???? oh ya and another thing - it isnt the big deal they learn these things u see, the foriegners, you see it takes our American Immigrant brothers(and sisters) to learn what they miss in India going there - and and culturally steal our culture - reffering to so called bhangra nights - wearing sari is like a curse here and against womens rights in India, our women if said to be traiditional: say we men are chauvanists, the Shashi Taroor incident on Times of India Newspaper. We cannot advise our ladies to wear traditional clothes, they prefer jeans over sari, women over men!!!! and booze and ..........
Its acceptable. and when a chinese or a forigner embrace Indian culture its a big deal

China is going to Invade India again and steal our chics ;D

IndianBoy, how is it racist? Also, sounds like a lot of pent up rage. What's so wrong with bhangra nights, anyway? :)

I am not going to even bother to take sides on the wearing of saris. But IndianBoy needs to get a clue when it comes to comparing blog entries. The fuss over the Tharoor thing was over wearing saris regularly. The Chinese thing was over how cute it is to see some Chinese lady and her daughter in a sari and teaching Bhartnatyam. I doubt that means the same people who were not pleased with Tharoor's comments were wanting this Chinese lady to wear a sari on a regular basis to do her chores or visit a friend.

I'm coming to this discussion too late for anyone to see my comment but I'll put it up anyway: in Malaysia, lots of Chinese people actually study (and excel at) Bharatanatyam. One of our best-known young dancers, Mavin Khoo, is half Chinese and half Indian (a combination known as Chindian in Malaysia/Singapore, where Indian-Chinese intermarriages are common enough to be statistically significant). And one of our veteran teachers is Ramli Ibrahim, who is Malay but has probably done more for Bharatanatyam than any other single figure in the country. For those interested in cross-pollination with old, deep roots, there's really no better region to check out.

hi i want to know your names because you guys look so beautiful i love you guys nice to meet you bye bye my new friends from indian my name is markabo