This is lamentable, in fact disgusting. But I can't help but notice that similar outrage was lacking when Angelina Jolie donned brownface for her latest film, a Mighty heart.

I can't help but notice that similar outrage was lacking when Angelina Jolie donned brownface for her latest film, a MIght heart.

I didn't see the movie, so it didn't even occur to me that they'd do more than slap some bronzer on her, since Marianne is mixed:

Of Dutch-Jewish, Afro-Latino-Cuban and Chinese Cuban ancestry and raised in Paris [wiki]

It's an interesting point. Was Jolie in "brownface"? And where do we draw the line for what's considered inappropriate, since acting is supposed to be about transformation etc?

Mujahir: An Urdu speaking person who went over to Pakistan from India during partition, like Musharraf. Their children now born in Pakistan are also identified as Muhajirs.

Somebody emailed this clip from 'You Tube'. What you have here is the host 'Anwar Maqsood' who talks to his 2 guests 'Moin Akhter' and the other dude 'Jaavid Jaaferi' about an ongoing cricket series between India and Pakistan. The guests 'Moin Akhtar' and 'Jaavid Jaaferi' are playing the characters of two Hyderabadis. One of them has supposedly come over from Hyderabad, India to watch cricket while the other one is a Pakistani Hyderabadi (his parents supposedly came over from Hyderabad during partition)

This is ostensibly a comedic show where the two guests are playing silly caricatures of Hyderabadis. Their Apu like put on Hyderabadi Urdu accent is ridiculous and they are covered in blackface because Hyderabadis are supposed to be dark compared to an average Pakistani.

Hyderabadis are generally subjected to ridicule in popular Pakistani culture for their dark skin and Hyderabadi accented Urdu.

Thanks for the additional info, Al. Very helpful!

Hyderabadis are generally subjected to ridicule in popular Pakistani culture for their dark skin and Hyderabadi accented Urdu.

I was unaware of this.

And Al I totally agree with the accent, not that is has not been done before (south indians who speak hindi), but I think blackface is a bit much.

Speaking of blackface hyderabadis, why not covert the taslima Nasreen incident in Hyderabad. First she is attacked by elected state officials (MLAs from the MIM Mujlis -e- Ittehadul Muslimeen (MIM)) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0dzt8SFg9I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkegL2C7XSQ

and then the police register a case against her.

And Al I totally agree with the accent, not that is has not been done before (south indians who speak hindi), but I think blackface is a bit much.

I dont know about the accuracy of the accent. It sounds way over the top to me. The Punjabis in Pakistan also speak accented Urdu but are not subjected to similar ridicule. The Blackface is outright racist. There is no other way to put it.

Al, what I meant was that, I agree with your point about the accent. It is a little bit over the top.

Jolie's brownface was not done to ridicule the character who is her friend in real life.
I did read about some Pakistanis wanting to identify themselves closer to Arabs than Indians(culturally and racially) because of some fucked up complex that Arabs are superior to Indians. Maybe this is where the color issue fits in .

I cannot find the video on You Tube right now but I know of at least one Hindi Movie with Mahmood where he portrayed an Hyderbadi with the blackface and the accent. Can't remember the name right now..

So there is a racist element in the Pakistani stance toward India generally?

i think being un-PC is so far down the list of things in south asia, that people are concerned with 900 other things before political correctness matters.

Speaking of blackface hyderabadis, why not covert the taslima Nasreen incident in Hyderabad

Why not? Because we are on hiatus, which means that our posting volume is considerably lower, several bloggers are taking much-needed and deserved time off and thus, we cover less than we normally would. Our not blogging it is not a statement of our opinion on it...or anything else for that matter.

Here's a general sort of point, not aimed at you, though I appreciate your asking your question if it means I get to clarify process:

I'm very concerned about the Nasreen incident, but please understand that certain posts take a great amount of time to research and then write; a post like this one about blackface, which is relatively brief and simple still took me 30 minutes. I'd rather not blog something important, than do a shitty job with it, just so we can fulfill some non-existent standard for being on top of all things desi/conform to unrealistic and unfair expectations of us and what we are currently capable of handling.

Blackface is racist and outrageous, but somewhat par-for-the-course in a region where you can still find people obsessed with skin color. By this measure, 99% of all matrimonial ads will qualify as racist.

Anna,
Thanks for the shout out. I cannot see /hear the entire clip right now but since you asked :-)

Jave Jaffrey is an Indian actor, son of the once famous Jagdeep .You may remember him from Deepa Mehta's "Fire"This is not the first time that Javed Jaffery has performed blackface . He used to have an ongoing skit on Chanel V where he played many roles : including one where he was "Vengeance Veerappan" in blackface representing a supposedly "South Indian " character.

I hate to say this but this brings back unpleasant memories. Hindi film in India itself are ripe with depictions of South Indians by North or -worse- South Indian actors in blackface perpetuating some imagined stereotype.( For example: Mehmood in several films such as Gumnaam ) .What is infinitely worse is that , even today, there is this percpetion among "North Indians " about what South Indians look/talk like. I just went through this 2 days ago with some far off relatives from my ( Punjabi) Husband's family, who tried to convince me that I do not look "Madrasi" because ,you know, South Indians are Dravidians ( as opposed to North Indian "Aryans") and are therefore dark with curly hair.See the racisal overtones?Bah!

In short: This practice is not completely unheard of, is definitely less common than it once was ( one hopes - though remember the fiasco again with cricket and the "blackface" portrayal of West Indians in an Indian ad during the World Cup that was blogged here?)

I remember a Pakistani student at my college who made it her business to broadcast far and wide that Pakistanis had ruled India (she has calmed down since), while I grew up hearing that most Desi Muslims are descended from Hindu converts, with a few of the elite families with Mughal ancestry being mixed. Who are Hyderabadis supposed to be in the Pakistani reckoning of things?

Runa: Is it common for Indian actors to act in Pakistani tv shows and vice versa?

Runa: Is it common for Indian actors to act in Pakistani tv shows and vice versa?

From what I understand it is becoming more common from Pakistanis to show up on Indian screens. In fact recently there was some Pakistani actress who had to go back because something was wrong with her visa(I think) and there was a lot of coverage in the Indian media about it.

i think being un-PC is so far down the list of things in south asia, that people are concerned with 900 other things before political correctness matters.

What's with the hating on "PC" (I think you mean being PC and not un-PC)? Things didn't become PC by random fiat from someone. These are things that some people cared deeply about (and many continue to do so). Most "PC" came out of someone or the other being badly hurt by some social practice.

Notice no one shows off about being PC. "un-PC" though is a huge badge of honor. In fact, there's little that is more politically correct and in fashion than being un-PC.

I'm not condoning this but i'm curious...what is the difference between this type of comedy and what Carlos Mencia does on his shows here in the US?

doesn't he do many skits that are boderline rascists and stereotypical in the name of comedy also? and is that deemed offensive cos as i can see he is very popular on comedy central.

just curious to people thoughts...

Appalling. We already know that racism is rife within South Asia & the South Asian diaspora. The question is, how do we combat it?

Runa: Is it common for Indian actors to act in Pakistani tv shows and vice versa?

Not to my knowledge.Actually ,I was surprised to see Javed J on a Pakistani TV show. I may be outdated in my info but about 7-8 years ago the only crossover was via movies not TV (Raj Kapoor's Henna had a Pakistani female actor in a lead,Salma Agha from Pakistan acted in a few Hindi movies) .Recently Meera - a Pakistani actor - faced a lot of flak in Pakistan for acting in Hindi movies.Mohsin Khan ( who played criket for Pakistan) acted in a few unwatchable Hindi movies. Bal Thackeray of the Shiv Sena actually madeba big noise about having Pak Actors in Hindi cinema when Indian cinema itself is banned in Pakistan.( I apologize for the link but that will give you some idea of the rubbish he spouts!)

What's with the hating on "PC"

oh. im not saying PC is a bad thing. im just saying that there is so much more warped out stuff that goes down in pakistan that being politically correct is REALLY far down the priority list. i mean, its a country with $hit loads of alQ combined with law and order problems, nuclear weapons combined with an unstable government, etc, etc....

While I miss some of our now-absent personalities who were prolific with their pondering (Punjabi Boy, Jai Singh, DesiDancer and Espressa come to mind)

should have a VH1 style "Sepia Mutiny: Where are they now?"

I am indifferent to the brownface incident - but wanted to drop in and thank Al C. I saw the accompanying 'bihari' skit and that was hilarious. You need to be bosom buddies with a bihari person and understand rustic hindi well to understand it though.


I am very pleased. I shall pick the grapes off the haunches of this houri now and rejoice. - plucks, plops, chews thoughtfully and sighs in pleasure. Ahhh!

I'm not condoning this but i'm curious...what is the difference between this type of comedy and what Carlos Mencia does on his shows here in the US?

I'm also curious-- does he do these skits in blackface?

what about that movie where the wayans brothers, i think, put on whiteface to play some women, i think? not saying that's racist, but where does that stand?

Arre yaar, it was just a comedy show. Light lo!

Last comment. I just finished the behari sketch. Oh Come onn! guys - the comic timing is cracking. The easier jokes are the exchanges on the red shirt and the empty mug - the other ones need me to think over. This is the best comic repartee i've seen in a while - rivals GGM as original southasian humor and yet is not bawdy or slapstick... dude Al C! i am in your debt old frrrooti.


:-)


:- ) )

Also curious about Travolta playing Divine playing suburban mom ;p

Anna #25,

Yes he does, see this. Also I believe Amitabh Bachchan did something similar in Desh Premi, will link to the song as soon as I find it.

Kurma @19, difference to me is between racism and PCness. Racism is absolutely combatted when people stand up and change the things that have been hurting them or their communities. But, having just graduated from an uppity liberal college in the NE, sometimes the pendulum swings so far the other way that Politcal Correctness is actually damaging. I went to school with people who were conditioned to shut down and not talk about race, class, sexuality etc out of fear of offending somebody. Sometimes that fear is good (if it gets the racists and homophobes to think twice) and I'll be the first to say racism or any action or policty that hurt groups shouldn't be tolerated. There also has to be a space where it's OK to ask questions, engage and learn - i think that's where the trend against PCness began.

As for Jolie, the 'brownface' wasn't done to ridicule like black face is, as Pravin said. Since Maryanne Pearl was brown, I felt a brown actress could have played her instead of Jolie (of course Angelina brings in more money). There's been a long divide and struggle in Hollyood to get non-white actors in leading roles and big movies, not just 'Norbit.' A great movie comes along with a natural opportunity to cast a brown actress (even if they couldn't find the right mix of brown, Janina Gavankar plays a latina in the L Word), but Jolie was cast instead. I like Jolie but we're not at a place in America where I believe she was the best actress for the role regardless of color, because it rarely works the other way around (but hey, Dr. Bailey on Grey's was written for a petite, white woman so you never know).

And would someone who watches desi tv please tell me that this an uncommon practice?

Well, there was this example of a Hindi show using blackface. I'm not sure if that is a regular skit on the show or if there are others (since I have spent approximately 45 minutes of my life watching desi TV).

Also I believe Amitabh Bachchan did something similar in Desh Premi, will link to the song as soon as I find it.

More like black-face. Even the lyrics say that.

Amit,

That is exactly what I had in mind. Thanks for looking it up

I tried watching the clip. Was too bored to get even outraged. I couldnt understand what they were saying, but I could follow the body language which is commonly used in Indian movies to make fun of another group. It is not isolated to Pakistanis making fun of Hyderabadis.

About the only jokes that truly offended me upon reflection were the "dumb Sikh" jokes. The worst is when adults would say them. I wish I was older to know better at the time. If someone makes a dumb Sikh joke now, I will either make a joke making fun of them or just give them a piece of my mind or I will just spoil the mood by asking "so when do you get to the funny part?"

speaking of janina gavankar, has anyone been to msdewey.com? she is such a prick! i searched for al qaeda and she threatened to turn me over to the justice department.

More like black-face. Even the lyrics say that.

Just wanted to clarify that I posted the link to the song without any judgment one way or the other on this issue. In the song (and bit of a context), AB and HM have their faces painted black as part of a disguise.

What an interesting debate...

I don't have much to add, other than that the documentary Ethnic Notions is a great place to start for some background on the history and connotations of blackface in the US...

This is disgusting, but I don't understand the surprise. Indo-Punjabis generally do make fun of S. Indians about color etc, why would Pak-Punjabis be any different? Comic relief in Indian movies often takes the shape of a dark skinned person. I do find it odd however when I see S. Indians taking issue with the characterization of us as darker etc. On average, excepting Brahmins who probably constitute less than 5% of the population, we S. Indians are darker than Punjabis. We should embrace this and fight against the negative portrayal of black skinned people instead

Runa: Is it common for Indian actors to act in Pakistani tv shows and vice versa?

Irrespective of what political relations India and Pakistan might have....Bollywood has always lured Pakistan actors and actresses, singers.....it goes back to Nazia Hussian (she was a singer, and a huge sensation in her day), Salma Agha, and even before in 50-60s. A lot of Pakistani actresses are on Indian TV too. They (actors, actresses, song writers, singers) are most welcome if they make money for the producer in Mumbai, as simple as that.

An example, one more

A few Indian actors act in Pakistan too - Nasseruddin Shah is in the recent Pakistani movie that Abhi blogged few days ago, Manisha Koirala is going to direct a movie in Pakistan. Khamoshi Pani - probably one of the best Pakistani movie - it is a German-Irish production though, directed by an expat Pakistani woman director - has almost more than half the cast from India.

Number wise.....the scales are tipped in favor of Pakistanis working Indian entertainment industry.

the Punjabis in Pakistan also speak accented Urdu but are not subjected to similar ridicule.

I think the main element that makes this offensive is that there is an element of derision and there are imbalanced power dynamics at play. It's easy to make racist jokes about Southies, or about "poorer" (whether politically, economically, or just in terms of media influence) northern states (e.g. Bihar). Either way it's reprehensible. Largely because there is no alternative dialogue, it's little better than bullying.

I'm not condoning this but i'm curious...what is the difference between this type of comedy and what Carlos Mencia does on his shows here in the US? doesn't he do many skits that are boderline rascists and stereotypical in the name of comedy also? and is that deemed offensive cos as i can see he is very popular on comedy central.

About the only jokes that truly offended me upon reflection were the "dumb Sikh" jokes. The worst is when adults would say them. I wish I was older to know better at the time. If someone makes a dumb Sikh joke now, I will either make a joke making fun of them or just give them a piece of my mind or I will just spoil the mood by asking "so when do you get to the funny part?"

This is disgusting, but I don't understand the surprise. Indo-Punjabis generally do make fun of S. Indians about color etc, why would Pak-Punjabis be any different? Comic relief in Indian movies often takes the shape of a dark skinned person.

Some previous posts on the subject of blackface:

Be bold if you want to succeed
Burnt Cork and Grease Paint
Selling race

Out of curiosity, are people from North India ridiculed with over the top caricatures in popular culture in South India?

Now that I think about it, Hyderabadis are also ridiculed by Urdu speakers in both Delhi/UP and Karachi so the 'Loose Talk' comedy probably has a more of a Hyderabadi/South Indian versus the rest flavor to it than a Muhajir versus Non-Muhajir angle.

I actually find this really interesting because, as mentioned, it's not like Indo-Punjabis have had the easiest time in popular media, either. I clearly grew up in an insulated family (no real regional judgment/stereotypes), so it's interesting to me that the humor of one maligned group operates by maligning another group.

Do you mean all Punjabis or specifically Punjabi Sikhs have difficulty ?

Do you mean all Punjabis or specifically Punjabi Sikhs have difficulty ?

see...and i thought that punjabis dominated pop culture in india...is that just indian american culture?

see...and i thought that punjabis dominated pop culture in india...is that just indian american culture?

Out of curiosity, are people from North India ridiculed with over the top caricatures in popular culture in South India?

Not that I am aware of. Except that people will parrot Sikh (i.e. Sardarji)jokes, but I've never seen that on TV or movies

Dudes,

Woe is me has started. Let us do collective wailing......give me a break.

Every group, caste, and religion in entertainment industry has stereotypes. Even our pal, Shakespeare had it too.

If there is a group that tops that list in Bollywood is: A Baniya (Trader Caste) or Jamedhar (Landlord).

Almost 90% of the time, the rapist, loan shark, exploiting the heroes mother (All AB movies in 70/80s) is a baniya.

Roshan Seth, Dabbar Seth.....I can list 100s of them.......baniya being the bad guy. Not only Bollywood, even art house movies from Shyam Benegal et al. were often Baniya/ Jamedhar-exploitation based movies.

Let us all wail......one, two, three.

Punjabis do NOT dominate in film or popular representation. We do dominate in Bollywood singers, but I think that's because so many people trained in Punjab. Maybe I am being narrow, though, as louciecypher mentioned, and thinking specifically of Punjabi Sikhs. In the context of Indian-American culture, we dominate in terms of food and dance (I mean, when people say "Indian food" they often think CTM, and when they think "dance" they think bhangra), but that also varies by region. But what does it mean to "dominate" culturally when this is divorced from from other manifestations of authority or influence?

fair enough. i remember back in my "glory days" (late 90's) in college in the US, "indian" meant "punjabi with occasional pandering to gujjus". south indian just didnt count. must be different in the indian entertainment industry. maybe the sample of bollywood that gets sold in the US is really skewed or something..

south indian just didnt count. must be different in the indian entertainment industry.

Punjabis do NOT dominate in film or popular representation.

Really. On the contrary:

The following is a list of famous Punjabi families and individual artistes who have worked in Bollywood:

[edit] Punajbi Families

The Kapoors - 1

* Prithviraj Kapoor
* Raj Kapoor
* Shammi Kapoor
* Geeta Bali
* Shashi Kapoor
* Randhir Kapoor
* Rishi Kapoor
* Neetu Singh
* Rajiv Kapoor
* Karisma Kapoor
* Kareena Kapoor
* Ranbir Kapoor

The Kapoors - 2

* Surinder Kapoor
* Boney Kapoor
* Anil Kapoor
* Sanjay Kapoor

The Kapoors - 3

* Jeetendra (Ravi Kapoor)
* Tusshar Kapoor

The Malhotras

* Premnath
* Bina Rai
* Rajindernath
* Prem Krishen

The Sahnis

* Balraj Sahni
* Bhisham Sahni
* Parikshit Sahni

The Anands

* Chetan Anand
* Dev Anand
* Vijay Anand

The Chopras

* Baldev Raj Chopra
* Yash Chopra
* Ravi Chopra
* Aditya Chopra
* Uday Chopra

The Dutts

* Sunil Dutt
* Nargis
* Sanjay Dutt

The Deols

* Dharmendra
* Sunny Deol
* Bobby Deol
* Esha Deol

The Tullis

* Rajendra Kumar
* Kumar Gaurav

The Puris

* Madan Puri
* Amrish Puri

The Khannas - 1

* Rajesh Khanna
* Akshay Kumar(aka Rajiv Bhatia, husband of Twinkle Khanna)
* Twinkle Khanna
* Rinke Khanna

The Khannas - 2

* Vinod Khanna
* Akshaye Khanna
* Rahul Khanna

The Roshans

* Roshan
* Rakesh Roshan
* Rajesh Roshan
* Hrithik Roshan

The Bedis

* Kabir Bedi
* Pooja Bedi

The Kapurs

* Pankaj Kapur
* Shahid Kapoor

The Devgans

* Veeru Devgan
* Ajay Devgan
* Anil Devgan

The Oberois

* Suresh Oberoi
* Vivek Oberoi

The Paintals

* Paintal
* Gufi Paintal
* Hiten Paintal

[edit] Individual Artistes

* Kamini Kaushal
* Pran
* Prem Chopra
* Dara Singh
* Anand Bakshi
* Achala Sachdev
* Manoj Kumar
* Om Prakash
* Vimmi
* I. S. Johar
* Gulzar
* Kulbhushan Kharbanda
* Navin Nischol
* Vinod Mehra
* Simi Garewal
* Ranjeet
* Om Puri
* Subhash Ghai
* Raj Babbar
* Rati Agnihotri
* Bindiya Goswami
* Deepti Naval
* Yogeeta Bali
* Kanwaljit Singh
* Rama Vij
* Kiran Juneja
* Kirron Kher
* Shakti Kapoor
* Gulshan Grover
* Mangal Dhillon
* Amrita Singh
* Sonu Walia
* Archana Puran Singh
* Parmeet Sethi
* Mukesh Khanna
* Juhi Chawla
* Raveena Tandon
* Gauri Khan
* Raageshwari
* Rakeysh Omprakash Mehra
* Karan Johar
* Rajat Kapoor
* Rajit Kapur
* Pooja Batra
* Divya Dutta
* Mandira Bedi
* Gracy Singh
* Celina Jaitley
* Malaika Arora
* Amrita Arora
* Gul Panag
* Lara Dutta
* Priyanka Chopra
* Tara Sharma
* Minissha Lamba
* Bhumika Chawla
* Simone Singh
* Jimmy Shergill
* Aryan Vaid
* Kunal Kapoor
* Arjun Rampal

[edit]

see...and i thought that punjabis dominated pop culture in india...is that just indian american culture?

I think Camille's right, there's clear dominance in whats referred to as "Indian dance & music" in America, especially collegiate America. Likewise, all that hopping on one foot could enable these dancers to become hopscotch grand champions.

Just curious - how many people actually understood the language to any extent. I didnt notice the skin coloring. It could have been their natural skin color and paid no heed. It was a nice copper tone. I enjoy a similar complexion after a day sailing. I think it looks good on me so it wasnt offensive. The accents and the language nuances were slightly exaggerated but within a nominal stretch of reality. More than anything, I enjoyed the repartee and was not laughing at the accent or the costumes. Hence I ask, did anyone who understood the language find the sketch funny? While it may be superficially offensive for the props used, the nuance elevates it beyond the common comic sketches that use as schtick the tasteless verbalization of socially unacceptable or irresponsible behaviour.

Anna, thank you for blogging this. In fact, thank you, thank you, thank you!

I was so hoping someone would blog this, because ACFD, I followed the link you had set up from ultrabrown into youtube, from where I watched all the parts, first of the Hyderabadi, then of the Bihari, and then of the Dehlavi shows. Super-excellimento, in terms of authenticity, dialogue, delivery, content.

The two actors playing the roles of Hyderabadi, Bihari and Dehlavi (i) muhajir and (ii) visitor from India - are extremely good at what they do, I was left gasping at how well they showed both the regional variation in the Urdu accent, and the mindset and preoccupations, both of the mohajir and the visitor.

In each case, the mohajir is shown as being somewhat bourgeois, and affecting the corresponding airs, and the visitor from India as someone poorer and therefore a bit cruder (the mild classism I can live with; in part this does reflect the reality of who could and did migrate and who was left behind, in the 1940s and 1950s. The slightly 'darker' representation of the Hyderabadi visitor in part also reflects the color dimension of class - the upper middle classes migrated, the poor who couldn't were also, on average, darker.)

The actual content of their dialogue is superb, and contains occassional sarcastic commentary both on Indian and Pakistani politics (within the latitude allowed by Pakistan TV). The comedy show is set up as a serious discussion of an actual cricket series, and the particular conceit of the show is that the talk show host 'loses control' of the show, because his hosts assert themselves and get aggressive - every moderator's real-life nightmare - but provides an element of 'reality' and further authenticity. He has used this technique before in other comedy shows in PTV - and in this particular realization, has really shown its power.

I feel sad the cricket series is over and cannot form the context for more shows in which the Lakhnavi, Barelvi, Bhopali, Ludhianvi, etc accents are also spoofed. I think at worst this is like Canadians spoofing all the varieties of American accents that exist - not offensive whatsoever, and in this case marvelously authentic and very well done.

So - for all those who can spare time to watch the videos, all on youtube - they are excellent entertainment, so two thumbs up from me. DBDs will really like the authenticity of the representations which both Bollywood and other Indian media never spoof, out of PCness.

KT,

in that list, just out of curiosity? Are most of them in front of the camera or behind? I know very little about Bollywood, so the individual names mean nothing to me.

is the differnece between hyderabad urdu and pakistan urdu lik the difference between quebecois and the french spoken in paris, or is it just an accent?

Kush: No one is wailing dude, I am just stating a fact that where S. Indians are referenced by N. Indians it is almost always as a buffoon. There's only one other ethno-linguitic group that has its Indian bona fides questioned as much and that is people from the NE with "Asian" phenotype. Not that I care given that where I am sitting there is an inverse relationship between proximity to Delhi and progress

because his hosts assert themselves and get aggressive

guests

although in Bollywood I would argue Southies and Biharis get screwed... harder?

I would think that South Indians are not so much part of the bollywood b/c of course language - I know in Kerala most people do not understand Hindi. So I'm not sure if the South Indian actors get screwed when there is a very large South Indian cinema scene and lots of money to be made there.

But don't Biharis speak Hindi?

But then recently I've noticed some major bollywood stars are S. Indian, like Ash and Shilpa Shetty.

in that list, just out of curiosity? Are most of them in front of the camera or behind? I know very little about Bollywood, so the individual names mean nothing to me.

All of them - front and behind. Look at the list carefully......some of them like Kapoor family (the first family of Bollywood), Roshan family, Doel family do it all - act, direct, produce.

That list is a tiny fraction - like Raveena Tandon father is a famous director, and is missing from the list.

HMF, some of them (Chopra, Roshan, Karan Johar) are behind the camera, but most are in front. Also Om Puri is related to Amrish Puri and Madan Puri. It's also fascinating that the #1 Bollywood actresses (FWIW) have been mostly from the South - Vyjyanthimala, Hema Malini, Rekha, Sridevi. Madhuri Dixit is Maharashtrian.

I would think that South Indians are not so much part of the bollywood b/c of course language

well....its not just lack of presence. its active portrayal as a wierdo.

It's also fascinating that the #1 Bollywood actresses (FWIW) have been mostly from the South - Vyjyanthimala, Hema Malini, Rekha, Sridevi. Madhuri Dixit is Maharashtrian.

Yes, it has always been. Add Jayalalitha too.

Runa: Is it common for Indian actors to act in Pakistani tv shows and vice versa?

we S. Indians are darker than Punjabis

totally O/T but in KT's list, kulbhushan kharbanda jumped out at me - he's one of the most versatile actors out there - though he played up his punjabi roots to the hilt in bollywood/hollywood and monsoon wedding.

well....its not just lack of presence. its active portrayal as a wierdo.

well....its not just lack of presence. its active portrayal as a wierdo.

I guess I don't watch enuff bollywood to get that pattern

The two actors playing the roles of Hyderabadi, Bihari and Dehlavi

Do you mean the Delhi Urdu accent by Dehlavi? It sounded more Bollywood/Bombay than Delhi to me.

Clearly my perception of "domination" is totally totally skewed :)

is the differnece between hyderabad urdu and pakistan urdu lik the difference between quebecois and the french spoken in paris, or is it just an accent?

But don't Biharis speak Hindi?

cry me a river, Pinda

ahh...excellent. if you ever talk about discrimination or media portrayal, thats what i should tell you instead of actually thinking about what your saying. good idea...

All of them - front and behind. Look at the list carefully......some of them like Kapoor family (the first family of Bollywood), Roshan family, Doel family do it all - act, direct, produce

So they're somewhat similar to the Jews in Hollywood

Hollywood Pioneers:

Samuel Goldwyn, Louis B. Mayer, William Fox, Jesse L. Lasky, Carl Laemmle, Marcus Loew, Adolph Zukor, and the original Warner Brothers ( Harry Warner (1881–1958), Albert Warner (1883–1967), Sam Warner (1887–1927) and Jack L. Warner (1892–1978), )

ahh...excellent. if you ever talk about discrimination or media portrayal, thats what i should tell you instead of actually thinking about what your saying. good idea...

dude, i was totally kidding. and too lazy to write anything of real substance in response. for the record, it's quite annoying to me to see this portrayal of south indians speaking hindi - at least they try. no wonder people from the south (esp. tamilians) get so annoyed with the imposition of hindi as the 'national' language.

is the differnece between hyderabad urdu and pakistan urdu lik the difference between quebecois and the french spoken in paris, or is it just an accent?

There are variations in grammar, vocabulary, verb declensions, intonation, delivery among the two. But, as for Indian Urdu as a whole, the essential aspect of note is that there are very significant variations within - there is no single Indian Urdu, and that is the point of the show. The real difficulty in comparison with Quebecois and Parisienne, however, is that, (ironically) Urdu is not native to Pakistan whatsoever, in the sense that French is to Paris.

The canonical form of Urdu that has now become standard in the (vernacular) educated classes in Pakistan has a high Persian vocabulary content, with a mixture of Urdu speaking styles once common in Delhi and UP, and a Punjabi-style accent in speech forms laid on top. To the extent that the language migrated with the Quebecois and froze in place as it was in the 18th century, it is Pakistani Urdu which might deserve that comparison, some centuries hence, not Hyderabadi! Pakistani Urdu in this sense bears a correspondence with Indian Hindi, with Sanskrit replacing Persian as the source of vocab.

Chachaji #56 - thanks for the explanation b/c I was lost;

Having grown up in the US, I think there is an instant aversion to anything to do with blackface. Your (Chachaji's) perception of the show gives a different understanding of the actual humor ---- did you grow up in India? I don't think I'd find this offensive if there was an underlying idea, that these are stereotypes and the actors are making fun of people who stereotype ---- like the humor of SNL,Wayne's World, or Ali G.

I was left gasping at how well they showed both the regional variation in the Urdu accent

I disagree, Chachaji :)

Hyderabadi accent and Karachi accent have as much in common as the English and Irish accent.
It takes no special skill to portray the Hyderabadi or the Bihari accent as different from the regular Delhi/UP accent. Now if they were to differentiate between the Urdu accents of Western UP from Eastern UP, Karachi Cosmopolitan from Delhi Cosmopolitan, then they deserve some kudos. Hyderabadi and Bihari accents are too easy.

Hi all and Anna,

Re: the outrage and accents - speaking as a Hyderabadi - Javed Jaafri was right on with what is typically 'an old city' (meaning people who live in old Hyderabad) accent - I remember the jokes us Hyderabadis would crack up to donning these accents -- its actually a lot of fun when done in Hyd because we are not laughing at anyone but laughing at ourselves. Also -- I used to find Mehmood's Hyderabadi accent very irritating because it was more Karnataka dakhni urdu than Hyderabadi Dakhni. I remember as a child we would get a ton of audio cassettes with Hyderabadi jokes (I know you still get them - because a friend of mine said he'd bought some in the 90's) - and the folks who enjoy them the most are Hyderabadis. And, yes - I could understand every single word spoken and its extremely hilarious and funny -- as for the blackface and the buck teeth - that is annoying caricature. And, I know that when its done in Pakistan - it seems more like they are laughing at Hyderabadis rather than with them. But - again - Moin Akhtar's jokes were extremely popular in Old city Hyderabad (where I had some family in the 70s and 80s - and remember being in splits listening to the jokes).

So all in all - the accent part -- very, very authentic - more so than Mehmood. The blackface and buck teeth - annoying and unecessary....there you have it - a clarification from a true blue Hyderabadi...:-)

Ha. This is from wiki, contradicting my previous message:

"He was often thought to be the brother or cousin of late actors Madan Puri and Amrish Puri but he was not related to them."

I stand corrected as of now. Will have to do some research to find out if the above statement's correct or not.

One mild clarification - in each case, the 'mohajir' speaks a mildly 'refined' regional style of Indian Urdu, while the 'visitor' speaks a 'cruder', version, the show's creative host using this to illustrate also the class dimension of linguistic and 'dialectual' variation. (Thanks Camille for that word :))Only the host himself is speaking 'Pakistani Urdu'.

Kush, is it fair to characterize this as "wailing"? I don't think it is whining to request more information regarding something submitted as a tip, by one of our most "senior" commenters. Especially when said tip is potentially SO offensive to, you know, greasy black South Indians, like me.

It's interesting that you're dismissive of all of this, because from your name, I'd guess that you are not South Indian. So perhaps this wouldn't resonate with you, the way it did with me; I didn't understand it, but when I posted about my spider sense "tingling", in part I was remembering my parents' stories about vicious anti-Southie racism while in College, in North India.

::

PindaUSA,

I'll cry you a river. I think one of the reasons my parents didn't bother with Bollywood was because of the shittiness of productions like this-- Christian girls are sluts, South Indians are inferior, Punjabis are buffoons etc. You're right, I do think there has been a tendency to be less than fair to those who are portrayed as nowhere near fair-skinned. The fact that the great Bolly-actresses came from the South is bullshit when it comes to establishing parity, because they were successful precisely because they could "pass" for Northern. If Bollywood actors and actresses don't look like the average desi, then Hema Malini and SriDevi don't look like the average Malaylee or Tamil woman.

::

One of the reasons why we're worth reading is because of the quality (or quantity) of discussion. As it is, too many people feel intimidated and remain lurkers; this is one of my biggest concerns with SM. I will not tolerate a situation where perfectly normal comments are flamed and courteous commenters are personally attacked on this blog, not while I'm part of it. It's bad enough people are too scared to contribute their potentially valuable and interesting voices, I'll be damned if some of you scare off the few who are good enough to speak up.

The fact that the great Bolly-actresses came from the South is bullshit, when it comes to establishing parity because they made it precisely because they could "pass" for Northern.

I was stating a fact, not the reasons behind their success, nor denying that BW does not stereotype other communities.

I was stating a fact, not the reasons behind their success, nor denying that BW does not stereotype other communities.

I know you were stating a fact, and an interesting one at that. :) I'm just sick of that same fact being thrown my way when I bring up stereotypes about South Indians in BW. My ire wasn't aimed your way, I assure you.

Hyderabadi, thanks for your clarifying comments. I've only ever been to Hyderabad through its airport, on the way to Bangalore - kind of like the only time I've been in the South is when I went through Atlanta and DFW airports. That doesn't mean I can't tell a spot-on spoof of the Southern drawl, and I'm glad to see my sense of the Hyderabadi authenticity similarly confirmed!

Hyderabadi- great contribution to the thread. Thank you, much. :) I appreciate it.

So this wouldn't resonate with you, the way it did with me

Camille:

Meanwhile, Punjabis in India have been relentlessly ridiculed/lampooned in Indian popular media until the last 10-15 years (and we're still often a "caricature" or the villain

I am sorry but a big disagree on this one. Take a good look at Indian popular media over the last so many years and tell me which group is lampooned more. Its true that Punjabis/Punjabi culture absolutely dominates not just movies but also TV serials so the question of Punjabis ridiculously lampooning themselves does not arise

Chachaji:

Super-excellimento, in terms of authenticity, dialogue, delivery, content.

Dialogue,delivery maybe.But its okay to show a Southie Hyderabdi as a blackface, buck-toothed buffoon? Surely if the dialogues are so good they do not need an unnecessary prop in the form of offensive makeup?

My original point ( in # 15) was this:
I do not see this as some grand racial conspiracy by Pakistan to make fun of Indians. Rather an extension of the offensive lampooning of South Indians that has been part of popular media in India itself for so many years.

Runa, you Madrasi, you. ;) Allow me to explain why we Lemurians are inferior to Scythians...

I am sorry but a big disagree on this one. Take a good look at Indian popular media over the last so many years and tell me which group is lampooned more. Its true that Punjabis/Punjabi culture absolutely dominates not just movies but also TV serials so the question of Punjabis ridiculously lampooning themselves does not arise

As plenty of people have pointed out, Indian movies are full of stereotypes (one reason I stopped watching them in middle school); On the other hand, I think one should clarify what one means by "racism". If the term is used here to mean perpetuation of unkind and unflattering stereotypes and hence social distance, then its fine. But in the U.S. context it means more that than that; it also implies power inequalities, i.e. such social distance is correlated with differences in income, political power, wealth, even self-perception (the latter an outcome of the first three). I don't think you can say the same in the Indian context (where caste is more a marker of such power inequalities). No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.). So I suggest people clarify the sense in which they are using the term "racism".

Runa, you Madrasi, you. ;) Allow me to explain why we Lemurians are inferior to Scythians...

now...all we need is another group to dump on. then the circle of life continues!

how irritating it is to be labelled "Madarasi

one of my pakistani friends (and because he's pakistani, knows very little about the regional differences that exist in india) calls south indians 'ande podle' - because that's how all south indian languages sound phonetically to him! try as i might, he refuses to drop this phrase, even after i told him how racist and insulting it is. the worst part is that he learned it from his own dad - i'm going to have to do some solid training when his children come around...

runa - i do have to disagree on the ridiculous lampooning - it might not happen to the extent of other regions, but there are definitely instances where the punjabi 'poor relations' are too loud, bright, jolly etc for the taste of their city/bombya counterparts.

No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.).

he refuses to drop this phrase, even after i told him how racist and insulting it is.

ahh...because pakistan is a region of the world thats really hard to lampoon.

No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.).

and it most definitely happens in social situations - part of the reason why my parents have mostly tamil friends, and shy away from socializing in certain non-south indian desi groups, is because they've actually been made to feel uncomfortable due to their south-indian-ness. one of my own friends even told me that the reason she's closer to me than one of our malayali-american friends is because i can speak and understand hindi - i.e. our other friend's south-indian-ness (or failure to take on some north-indian-ness) prevented a certain closeness.

But its okay to show a Southie Hyderabdi as a blackface, buck-toothed buffoon?

Notice that there are two Hyderabadis, (just as there are two Biharis and two Dehlavis) - one more 'refined', the other 'poorer and cruder'. The buck-toothedness is depicted so realistically, the actor carries off the prop so well, along with the props for the cross-eyedness - that I thought they represented a real medical condition of the actor. I salute this level of acting professionalism.

Also, I think a show like that has to derive humor from dialogue and delivery and autheniticity, but has to have some slapstick elements too. In this case the bucktoothedness is not gratuitous whatsoever - to the extent that bucktoothedness is a treatable medical condition if recognized early enough - it is less likely to be available to someone who is poor. In this sense it adds to the authenticity of the class representation. Unlike, for example, Apu, there is no paucity of representations - there is no room for believing, even within the parameters of this show, that all Hyderabadis are bucktoothed. There is a 'refined' Hyderabadi right there!

There is no need to censor out even the possibility that some people out there, even Hyderabadis, may in fact be bucktoothed.

my dad (a south indian who grew up in north india) would disagree..he was systematically and consistantly discriminated against (in his view).

Ahh, I meant in the aggregate. Are South Indians living in "north" India systematically disadvantaged? And can this be traced to their SOuth Indian-ness? The only instance I can think of that comes even close is the Shiv-Sena inspired and led anti-South Indian riots in Bombay slums (which led to the creation of South Indian gangs, and rise of people like "big" Rajan). But even this is a very very imperfect (almost not) of what I am talking about.

one of my own friends even told me that the reason she's closer to me than one of our malayali-american friends is because i can speak and understand hindi -

I met this chick from Delhi, I told her I never learned Hindi,

she says, "You don't speak Hindi" in a shocking tone.

I respond, "Nope... but I do breathe oxygen, believe it or not."

one of my own friends even told me that the reason she's closer to me than one of our malayali-american friends is because i can speak and understand hindi - i.e. our other friend's south-indian-ness (or failure to take on some north-indian-ness) prevented a certain closeness.

This is an outrage! Our refusal to be co-opted is being used to abuse us! Lemurians, MuraliMannered and everyone else-- man your stations, the dread Northies are at it again. Arrrr.

(Seriously, though, that's sad. I've heard the same awesome reasoning applied my way, because I'm xtian, and the person couldn't relate to me, because of that. Ah, I love how people in our community love to broadcast shit...I would have never been the wiser, had the Hindu girl's confidante not run straight to me, apres hearing this juicy, juicy rumor-goodness...)

I respond, "Nope... but I do breathe oxygen, believe it or not."

i dont suppose you were trying to get *ction (were you?)

But in the U.S. context it means more that than that; it also implies power inequalities, i.e. such social distance is correlated with differences in income, political power, wealth, even self-perception (the latter an outcome of the first three). I don't think you can say the same in the Indian context (where caste is more a marker of such power inequalities). No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.). So I suggest people clarify the sense in which they are using the term "racism".

Yes, I was thinking the same thing.

Since I don't watch enuff Indian shows/movies, I just find it hard to say whether I'm offended by this "blackface" for hyderbadis and I'm South Indian. Hema Malini and Ash are just as South Indian as anyone else who's South Indian; I don't consider them "passing" for North Indian. I just see them as light-skinned and whether your light-skinned northern person or light-skinned southern person, your light skin will be prized. Their fair-skin is prized in Hindi cinema and I'd also think Tamil cinema, etc. As for the South Indian actresses features - they're very South Indian in my eyes. Small nose - cute face - That's my impression of what are typical South Indian features - of course as actresses, they are going to be more beautiful than an average person walking the street. Same in Hollywood - same in pretty much any entertainment business.

This is an outrage! Our refusal to be co-opted is being used to abuse us! Lemurians, MuraliMannered and everyone else-- man your stations, the dread Northies are at it again. Arrrr.

(Seriously, though, that's sad. I've heard the same awesome reasoning applied my way, because I'm xtian, and the person couldn't relate to me, because of that. Ah, I love how people in our community love to broadcast shit...I would have never been the wiser, had the Hindu girl's confidante not run straight to me, apres hearing this juicy, juicy rumor-goodness...)

i love it when people lack the ability to relate to someone who is the slightest bit different than them...its like something out of a tribal war taking place 5000 years ago.

Chachaji and Anna,

You are most welcome. Happy to be able to clarify.

Also, vis-a-vis the characterization i.e. the blackface etc -- I couldn't agree more that its a stereotype that the North Indians and Pakistanis engage in with South Indians. I remember there used to be all these stereotypes in Hyderabad about Pakistanis as well -- as being stuck-up and self-absorbed and condescending - and the way Pakistani urdu is spoken was made fun as well -- could be that it was in retaliation - but stereotyping of anyone is very annoying. But, I find the North Indian vs. South Indian stereotyping even more annoying perhaps because one comes across it so much more often -- 'oh, you people - how crude that you eat rice with your fingers rather than a spoon' etc -- hopefully its gotten better now, with the South coming into greater focus now with the IT industry. Btw, Outlook India did a special issue on North vs. South India - with interesting articles by Ramachandra Guha and others - there were several facts and figures kinds of articles also about how the South has leapt ahead quite a bit in the recent past. Some of the articles were very insightful into these North-South differences that we are discussing here.

are going to be more beautiful than an average person walking the street

who wants to watch average looking people doing average looking things...i do that every day...

'oh, you people - how crude that you eat rice with your fingers rather than a spoon'

muahaha! leaves more rice for me! i mean, rice with more. more sadu

Hema Malini and Ash are just as South Indian as anyone else who's South Indian; I don't consider them "passing" for North Indian

Yes, they are South Indian in real life, but that's not what I meant-- I'm pointing out that in the movies I've seen with these beautiful women, their characters are North Indian, not gorgeous, cute-faced Tamil ladies who just happened to marry Amitabh (or his son). They can convincingly play a Punjabi Hindu housewife, or whatever. That's what I meant by "passing".

their characters are North Indian, not gorgeous, cute-faced Tamil ladies who just happened to marry Amitabh (or his son).

thats cause an inter racial couple would involve a screaming 3 hour sub-plot with 6 song and dance numbers.

As plenty of people have pointed out, Indian movies are full of stereotypes (one reason I stopped watching them in middle school); On the other hand, I think one should clarify what one means by "racism". If the term is used here to mean perpetuation of unkind and unflattering stereotypes and hence social distance, then its fine. But in the U.S. context it means more that than that; it also implies power inequalities, i.e. such social distance is correlated with differences in income, political power, wealth, even self-perception (the latter an outcome of the first three).

I absolutely won't compare the situation of African-Americans to that of South Indians..we are ridiculed but never lynched.

I don't think you can say the same in the Indian context (where caste is more a marker of such power inequalities). No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.).

Umm...maybe because in the South we created our own opportunities to make up for our lack of Delhi/Mumbai clout ?

So I suggest people clarify the sense in which they are using the term "racism".

Racism is an apt word because we are seen as a different race by the people who abuse us. We aren't talking about dress, food customers etc...the "humor" is based on our phsyical traits. And I also take issue with people who pretend there are no differences in the genetic history of desis from different caste/linguistic background, this has been proven by science. We are all a mix, with the composition varying by locale. The issue is not whether desis have mixed, diverse origins but what people make of that genetic diversity

The south shall rise again.

As for the South Indian actresses features - they're very South Indian in my eyes. Small nose - cute face - That's my impression of what are typical South Indian features

I never really thought of this; if I'm around anyone who is pointing out a nose, it's because the proboscis we are discussing is big and the person to whom it belongs is usually of Northern extraction. I never stopped to think of if that meant South Indians had the opposite, i.e. "small noses". The only trait I really associate with a "South Indian" face is big, round eyes.

South Indians have been a part of Delhi Bombay society for as far as I can remember. Matunga, Chembur are two of the Bombay neighborhoods that immediately come to mind. A lot of big business in Delhi and Bombay are headed by South Indians, specifically Larsen and Toubro, Tata Consultancy, and I can look up more but I am a little busy. I am not sure if all that is being said here is the American experience or just hearsay.

thats cause an inter racial couple would involve a screaming 3 hour sub-plot with 6 song and dance numbers.

That's interesting...so you would consider a Tamil person marrying a UP person an interracial