This is lamentable, in fact disgusting. But I can't help but notice that similar outrage was lacking when Angelina Jolie donned brownface for her latest film, a Mighty heart.

I can't help but notice that similar outrage was lacking when Angelina Jolie donned brownface for her latest film, a MIght heart.

I didn't see the movie, so it didn't even occur to me that they'd do more than slap some bronzer on her, since Marianne is mixed:

Of Dutch-Jewish, Afro-Latino-Cuban and Chinese Cuban ancestry and raised in Paris [wiki]

It's an interesting point. Was Jolie in "brownface"? And where do we draw the line for what's considered inappropriate, since acting is supposed to be about transformation etc?

Mujahir: An Urdu speaking person who went over to Pakistan from India during partition, like Musharraf. Their children now born in Pakistan are also identified as Muhajirs.

Somebody emailed this clip from 'You Tube'. What you have here is the host 'Anwar Maqsood' who talks to his 2 guests 'Moin Akhter' and the other dude 'Jaavid Jaaferi' about an ongoing cricket series between India and Pakistan. The guests 'Moin Akhtar' and 'Jaavid Jaaferi' are playing the characters of two Hyderabadis. One of them has supposedly come over from Hyderabad, India to watch cricket while the other one is a Pakistani Hyderabadi (his parents supposedly came over from Hyderabad during partition)

This is ostensibly a comedic show where the two guests are playing silly caricatures of Hyderabadis. Their Apu like put on Hyderabadi Urdu accent is ridiculous and they are covered in blackface because Hyderabadis are supposed to be dark compared to an average Pakistani.

Hyderabadis are generally subjected to ridicule in popular Pakistani culture for their dark skin and Hyderabadi accented Urdu.

Thanks for the additional info, Al. Very helpful!

Hyderabadis are generally subjected to ridicule in popular Pakistani culture for their dark skin and Hyderabadi accented Urdu.

I was unaware of this.

And Al I totally agree with the accent, not that is has not been done before (south indians who speak hindi), but I think blackface is a bit much.

Speaking of blackface hyderabadis, why not covert the taslima Nasreen incident in Hyderabad. First she is attacked by elected state officials (MLAs from the MIM Mujlis -e- Ittehadul Muslimeen (MIM)) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0dzt8SFg9I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkegL2C7XSQ

and then the police register a case against her.

And Al I totally agree with the accent, not that is has not been done before (south indians who speak hindi), but I think blackface is a bit much.

I dont know about the accuracy of the accent. It sounds way over the top to me. The Punjabis in Pakistan also speak accented Urdu but are not subjected to similar ridicule. The Blackface is outright racist. There is no other way to put it.

Al, what I meant was that, I agree with your point about the accent. It is a little bit over the top.

Jolie's brownface was not done to ridicule the character who is her friend in real life.
I did read about some Pakistanis wanting to identify themselves closer to Arabs than Indians(culturally and racially) because of some fucked up complex that Arabs are superior to Indians. Maybe this is where the color issue fits in .

I cannot find the video on You Tube right now but I know of at least one Hindi Movie with Mahmood where he portrayed an Hyderbadi with the blackface and the accent. Can't remember the name right now..

So there is a racist element in the Pakistani stance toward India generally?

i think being un-PC is so far down the list of things in south asia, that people are concerned with 900 other things before political correctness matters.

Speaking of blackface hyderabadis, why not covert the taslima Nasreen incident in Hyderabad

Why not? Because we are on hiatus, which means that our posting volume is considerably lower, several bloggers are taking much-needed and deserved time off and thus, we cover less than we normally would. Our not blogging it is not a statement of our opinion on it...or anything else for that matter.

Here's a general sort of point, not aimed at you, though I appreciate your asking your question if it means I get to clarify process:

I'm very concerned about the Nasreen incident, but please understand that certain posts take a great amount of time to research and then write; a post like this one about blackface, which is relatively brief and simple still took me 30 minutes. I'd rather not blog something important, than do a shitty job with it, just so we can fulfill some non-existent standard for being on top of all things desi/conform to unrealistic and unfair expectations of us and what we are currently capable of handling.

Blackface is racist and outrageous, but somewhat par-for-the-course in a region where you can still find people obsessed with skin color. By this measure, 99% of all matrimonial ads will qualify as racist.

Anna,
Thanks for the shout out. I cannot see /hear the entire clip right now but since you asked :-)

Jave Jaffrey is an Indian actor, son of the once famous Jagdeep .You may remember him from Deepa Mehta's "Fire"This is not the first time that Javed Jaffery has performed blackface . He used to have an ongoing skit on Chanel V where he played many roles : including one where he was "Vengeance Veerappan" in blackface representing a supposedly "South Indian " character.

I hate to say this but this brings back unpleasant memories. Hindi film in India itself are ripe with depictions of South Indians by North or -worse- South Indian actors in blackface perpetuating some imagined stereotype.( For example: Mehmood in several films such as Gumnaam ) .What is infinitely worse is that , even today, there is this percpetion among "North Indians " about what South Indians look/talk like. I just went through this 2 days ago with some far off relatives from my ( Punjabi) Husband's family, who tried to convince me that I do not look "Madrasi" because ,you know, South Indians are Dravidians ( as opposed to North Indian "Aryans") and are therefore dark with curly hair.See the racisal overtones?Bah!

In short: This practice is not completely unheard of, is definitely less common than it once was ( one hopes - though remember the fiasco again with cricket and the "blackface" portrayal of West Indians in an Indian ad during the World Cup that was blogged here?)

I remember a Pakistani student at my college who made it her business to broadcast far and wide that Pakistanis had ruled India (she has calmed down since), while I grew up hearing that most Desi Muslims are descended from Hindu converts, with a few of the elite families with Mughal ancestry being mixed. Who are Hyderabadis supposed to be in the Pakistani reckoning of things?

Runa: Is it common for Indian actors to act in Pakistani tv shows and vice versa?

Runa: Is it common for Indian actors to act in Pakistani tv shows and vice versa?

From what I understand it is becoming more common from Pakistanis to show up on Indian screens. In fact recently there was some Pakistani actress who had to go back because something was wrong with her visa(I think) and there was a lot of coverage in the Indian media about it.

i think being un-PC is so far down the list of things in south asia, that people are concerned with 900 other things before political correctness matters.

What's with the hating on "PC" (I think you mean being PC and not un-PC)? Things didn't become PC by random fiat from someone. These are things that some people cared deeply about (and many continue to do so). Most "PC" came out of someone or the other being badly hurt by some social practice.

Notice no one shows off about being PC. "un-PC" though is a huge badge of honor. In fact, there's little that is more politically correct and in fashion than being un-PC.

I'm not condoning this but i'm curious...what is the difference between this type of comedy and what Carlos Mencia does on his shows here in the US?

doesn't he do many skits that are boderline rascists and stereotypical in the name of comedy also? and is that deemed offensive cos as i can see he is very popular on comedy central.

just curious to people thoughts...

Appalling. We already know that racism is rife within South Asia & the South Asian diaspora. The question is, how do we combat it?

Runa: Is it common for Indian actors to act in Pakistani tv shows and vice versa?

Not to my knowledge.Actually ,I was surprised to see Javed J on a Pakistani TV show. I may be outdated in my info but about 7-8 years ago the only crossover was via movies not TV (Raj Kapoor's Henna had a Pakistani female actor in a lead,Salma Agha from Pakistan acted in a few Hindi movies) .Recently Meera - a Pakistani actor - faced a lot of flak in Pakistan for acting in Hindi movies.Mohsin Khan ( who played criket for Pakistan) acted in a few unwatchable Hindi movies. Bal Thackeray of the Shiv Sena actually madeba big noise about having Pak Actors in Hindi cinema when Indian cinema itself is banned in Pakistan.( I apologize for the link but that will give you some idea of the rubbish he spouts!)

What's with the hating on "PC"

oh. im not saying PC is a bad thing. im just saying that there is so much more warped out stuff that goes down in pakistan that being politically correct is REALLY far down the priority list. i mean, its a country with $hit loads of alQ combined with law and order problems, nuclear weapons combined with an unstable government, etc, etc....

While I miss some of our now-absent personalities who were prolific with their pondering (Punjabi Boy, Jai Singh, DesiDancer and Espressa come to mind)

should have a VH1 style "Sepia Mutiny: Where are they now?"

I am indifferent to the brownface incident - but wanted to drop in and thank Al C. I saw the accompanying 'bihari' skit and that was hilarious. You need to be bosom buddies with a bihari person and understand rustic hindi well to understand it though.


I am very pleased. I shall pick the grapes off the haunches of this houri now and rejoice. - plucks, plops, chews thoughtfully and sighs in pleasure. Ahhh!

I'm not condoning this but i'm curious...what is the difference between this type of comedy and what Carlos Mencia does on his shows here in the US?

I'm also curious-- does he do these skits in blackface?

what about that movie where the wayans brothers, i think, put on whiteface to play some women, i think? not saying that's racist, but where does that stand?

Arre yaar, it was just a comedy show. Light lo!

Last comment. I just finished the behari sketch. Oh Come onn! guys - the comic timing is cracking. The easier jokes are the exchanges on the red shirt and the empty mug - the other ones need me to think over. This is the best comic repartee i've seen in a while - rivals GGM as original southasian humor and yet is not bawdy or slapstick... dude Al C! i am in your debt old frrrooti.


:-)


:- ) )

Also curious about Travolta playing Divine playing suburban mom ;p

Anna #25,

Yes he does, see this. Also I believe Amitabh Bachchan did something similar in Desh Premi, will link to the song as soon as I find it.

Kurma @19, difference to me is between racism and PCness. Racism is absolutely combatted when people stand up and change the things that have been hurting them or their communities. But, having just graduated from an uppity liberal college in the NE, sometimes the pendulum swings so far the other way that Politcal Correctness is actually damaging. I went to school with people who were conditioned to shut down and not talk about race, class, sexuality etc out of fear of offending somebody. Sometimes that fear is good (if it gets the racists and homophobes to think twice) and I'll be the first to say racism or any action or policty that hurt groups shouldn't be tolerated. There also has to be a space where it's OK to ask questions, engage and learn - i think that's where the trend against PCness began.

As for Jolie, the 'brownface' wasn't done to ridicule like black face is, as Pravin said. Since Maryanne Pearl was brown, I felt a brown actress could have played her instead of Jolie (of course Angelina brings in more money). There's been a long divide and struggle in Hollyood to get non-white actors in leading roles and big movies, not just 'Norbit.' A great movie comes along with a natural opportunity to cast a brown actress (even if they couldn't find the right mix of brown, Janina Gavankar plays a latina in the L Word), but Jolie was cast instead. I like Jolie but we're not at a place in America where I believe she was the best actress for the role regardless of color, because it rarely works the other way around (but hey, Dr. Bailey on Grey's was written for a petite, white woman so you never know).

And would someone who watches desi tv please tell me that this an uncommon practice?

Well, there was this example of a Hindi show using blackface. I'm not sure if that is a regular skit on the show or if there are others (since I have spent approximately 45 minutes of my life watching desi TV).

Also I believe Amitabh Bachchan did something similar in Desh Premi, will link to the song as soon as I find it.

More like black-face. Even the lyrics say that.

Amit,

That is exactly what I had in mind. Thanks for looking it up

I tried watching the clip. Was too bored to get even outraged. I couldnt understand what they were saying, but I could follow the body language which is commonly used in Indian movies to make fun of another group. It is not isolated to Pakistanis making fun of Hyderabadis.

About the only jokes that truly offended me upon reflection were the "dumb Sikh" jokes. The worst is when adults would say them. I wish I was older to know better at the time. If someone makes a dumb Sikh joke now, I will either make a joke making fun of them or just give them a piece of my mind or I will just spoil the mood by asking "so when do you get to the funny part?"

speaking of janina gavankar, has anyone been to msdewey.com? she is such a prick! i searched for al qaeda and she threatened to turn me over to the justice department.

More like black-face. Even the lyrics say that.

Just wanted to clarify that I posted the link to the song without any judgment one way or the other on this issue. In the song (and bit of a context), AB and HM have their faces painted black as part of a disguise.

What an interesting debate...

I don't have much to add, other than that the documentary Ethnic Notions is a great place to start for some background on the history and connotations of blackface in the US...

This is disgusting, but I don't understand the surprise. Indo-Punjabis generally do make fun of S. Indians about color etc, why would Pak-Punjabis be any different? Comic relief in Indian movies often takes the shape of a dark skinned person. I do find it odd however when I see S. Indians taking issue with the characterization of us as darker etc. On average, excepting Brahmins who probably constitute less than 5% of the population, we S. Indians are darker than Punjabis. We should embrace this and fight against the negative portrayal of black skinned people instead

Runa: Is it common for Indian actors to act in Pakistani tv shows and vice versa?

Irrespective of what political relations India and Pakistan might have....Bollywood has always lured Pakistan actors and actresses, singers.....it goes back to Nazia Hussian (she was a singer, and a huge sensation in her day), Salma Agha, and even before in 50-60s. A lot of Pakistani actresses are on Indian TV too. They (actors, actresses, song writers, singers) are most welcome if they make money for the producer in Mumbai, as simple as that.

An example, one more

A few Indian actors act in Pakistan too - Nasseruddin Shah is in the recent Pakistani movie that Abhi blogged few days ago, Manisha Koirala is going to direct a movie in Pakistan. Khamoshi Pani - probably one of the best Pakistani movie - it is a German-Irish production though, directed by an expat Pakistani woman director - has almost more than half the cast from India.

Number wise.....the scales are tipped in favor of Pakistanis working Indian entertainment industry.

the Punjabis in Pakistan also speak accented Urdu but are not subjected to similar ridicule.

I think the main element that makes this offensive is that there is an element of derision and there are imbalanced power dynamics at play. It's easy to make racist jokes about Southies, or about "poorer" (whether politically, economically, or just in terms of media influence) northern states (e.g. Bihar). Either way it's reprehensible. Largely because there is no alternative dialogue, it's little better than bullying.

I'm not condoning this but i'm curious...what is the difference between this type of comedy and what Carlos Mencia does on his shows here in the US? doesn't he do many skits that are boderline rascists and stereotypical in the name of comedy also? and is that deemed offensive cos as i can see he is very popular on comedy central.

About the only jokes that truly offended me upon reflection were the "dumb Sikh" jokes. The worst is when adults would say them. I wish I was older to know better at the time. If someone makes a dumb Sikh joke now, I will either make a joke making fun of them or just give them a piece of my mind or I will just spoil the mood by asking "so when do you get to the funny part?"

This is disgusting, but I don't understand the surprise. Indo-Punjabis generally do make fun of S. Indians about color etc, why would Pak-Punjabis be any different? Comic relief in Indian movies often takes the shape of a dark skinned person.

Some previous posts on the subject of blackface:

Be bold if you want to succeed
Burnt Cork and Grease Paint
Selling race

Out of curiosity, are people from North India ridiculed with over the top caricatures in popular culture in South India?

Now that I think about it, Hyderabadis are also ridiculed by Urdu speakers in both Delhi/UP and Karachi so the 'Loose Talk' comedy probably has a more of a Hyderabadi/South Indian versus the rest flavor to it than a Muhajir versus Non-Muhajir angle.

I actually find this really interesting because, as mentioned, it's not like Indo-Punjabis have had the easiest time in popular media, either. I clearly grew up in an insulated family (no real regional judgment/stereotypes), so it's interesting to me that the humor of one maligned group operates by maligning another group.

Do you mean all Punjabis or specifically Punjabi Sikhs have difficulty ?

Do you mean all Punjabis or specifically Punjabi Sikhs have difficulty ?

see...and i thought that punjabis dominated pop culture in india...is that just indian american culture?

see...and i thought that punjabis dominated pop culture in india...is that just indian american culture?

Out of curiosity, are people from North India ridiculed with over the top caricatures in popular culture in South India?

Not that I am aware of. Except that people will parrot Sikh (i.e. Sardarji)jokes, but I've never seen that on TV or movies

Dudes,

Woe is me has started. Let us do collective wailing......give me a break.

Every group, caste, and religion in entertainment industry has stereotypes. Even our pal, Shakespeare had it too.

If there is a group that tops that list in Bollywood is: A Baniya (Trader Caste) or Jamedhar (Landlord).

Almost 90% of the time, the rapist, loan shark, exploiting the heroes mother (All AB movies in 70/80s) is a baniya.

Roshan Seth, Dabbar Seth.....I can list 100s of them.......baniya being the bad guy. Not only Bollywood, even art house movies from Shyam Benegal et al. were often Baniya/ Jamedhar-exploitation based movies.

Let us all wail......one, two, three.

Punjabis do NOT dominate in film or popular representation. We do dominate in Bollywood singers, but I think that's because so many people trained in Punjab. Maybe I am being narrow, though, as louciecypher mentioned, and thinking specifically of Punjabi Sikhs. In the context of Indian-American culture, we dominate in terms of food and dance (I mean, when people say "Indian food" they often think CTM, and when they think "dance" they think bhangra), but that also varies by region. But what does it mean to "dominate" culturally when this is divorced from from other manifestations of authority or influence?

fair enough. i remember back in my "glory days" (late 90's) in college in the US, "indian" meant "punjabi with occasional pandering to gujjus". south indian just didnt count. must be different in the indian entertainment industry. maybe the sample of bollywood that gets sold in the US is really skewed or something..

south indian just didnt count. must be different in the indian entertainment industry.

Punjabis do NOT dominate in film or popular representation.

Really. On the contrary:

The following is a list of famous Punjabi families and individual artistes who have worked in Bollywood:

[edit] Punajbi Families

The Kapoors - 1

* Prithviraj Kapoor
* Raj Kapoor
* Shammi Kapoor
* Geeta Bali
* Shashi Kapoor
* Randhir Kapoor
* Rishi Kapoor
* Neetu Singh
* Rajiv Kapoor
* Karisma Kapoor
* Kareena Kapoor
* Ranbir Kapoor

The Kapoors - 2

* Surinder Kapoor
* Boney Kapoor
* Anil Kapoor
* Sanjay Kapoor

The Kapoors - 3

* Jeetendra (Ravi Kapoor)
* Tusshar Kapoor

The Malhotras

* Premnath
* Bina Rai
* Rajindernath
* Prem Krishen

The Sahnis

* Balraj Sahni
* Bhisham Sahni
* Parikshit Sahni

The Anands

* Chetan Anand
* Dev Anand
* Vijay Anand

The Chopras

* Baldev Raj Chopra
* Yash Chopra
* Ravi Chopra
* Aditya Chopra
* Uday Chopra

The Dutts

* Sunil Dutt
* Nargis
* Sanjay Dutt

The Deols

* Dharmendra
* Sunny Deol
* Bobby Deol
* Esha Deol

The Tullis

* Rajendra Kumar
* Kumar Gaurav

The Puris

* Madan Puri
* Amrish Puri

The Khannas - 1

* Rajesh Khanna
* Akshay Kumar(aka Rajiv Bhatia, husband of Twinkle Khanna)
* Twinkle Khanna
* Rinke Khanna

The Khannas - 2

* Vinod Khanna
* Akshaye Khanna
* Rahul Khanna

The Roshans

* Roshan
* Rakesh Roshan
* Rajesh Roshan
* Hrithik Roshan

The Bedis

* Kabir Bedi
* Pooja Bedi

The Kapurs

* Pankaj Kapur
* Shahid Kapoor

The Devgans

* Veeru Devgan
* Ajay Devgan
* Anil Devgan

The Oberois

* Suresh Oberoi
* Vivek Oberoi

The Paintals

* Paintal
* Gufi Paintal
* Hiten Paintal

[edit] Individual Artistes

* Kamini Kaushal
* Pran
* Prem Chopra
* Dara Singh
* Anand Bakshi
* Achala Sachdev
* Manoj Kumar
* Om Prakash
* Vimmi
* I. S. Johar
* Gulzar
* Kulbhushan Kharbanda
* Navin Nischol
* Vinod Mehra
* Simi Garewal
* Ranjeet
* Om Puri
* Subhash Ghai
* Raj Babbar
* Rati Agnihotri
* Bindiya Goswami
* Deepti Naval
* Yogeeta Bali
* Kanwaljit Singh
* Rama Vij
* Kiran Juneja
* Kirron Kher
* Shakti Kapoor
* Gulshan Grover
* Mangal Dhillon
* Amrita Singh
* Sonu Walia
* Archana Puran Singh
* Parmeet Sethi
* Mukesh Khanna
* Juhi Chawla
* Raveena Tandon
* Gauri Khan
* Raageshwari
* Rakeysh Omprakash Mehra
* Karan Johar
* Rajat Kapoor
* Rajit Kapur
* Pooja Batra
* Divya Dutta
* Mandira Bedi
* Gracy Singh
* Celina Jaitley
* Malaika Arora
* Amrita Arora
* Gul Panag
* Lara Dutta
* Priyanka Chopra
* Tara Sharma
* Minissha Lamba
* Bhumika Chawla
* Simone Singh
* Jimmy Shergill
* Aryan Vaid
* Kunal Kapoor
* Arjun Rampal

[edit]

see...and i thought that punjabis dominated pop culture in india...is that just indian american culture?

I think Camille's right, there's clear dominance in whats referred to as "Indian dance & music" in America, especially collegiate America. Likewise, all that hopping on one foot could enable these dancers to become hopscotch grand champions.

Just curious - how many people actually understood the language to any extent. I didnt notice the skin coloring. It could have been their natural skin color and paid no heed. It was a nice copper tone. I enjoy a similar complexion after a day sailing. I think it looks good on me so it wasnt offensive. The accents and the language nuances were slightly exaggerated but within a nominal stretch of reality. More than anything, I enjoyed the repartee and was not laughing at the accent or the costumes. Hence I ask, did anyone who understood the language find the sketch funny? While it may be superficially offensive for the props used, the nuance elevates it beyond the common comic sketches that use as schtick the tasteless verbalization of socially unacceptable or irresponsible behaviour.

Anna, thank you for blogging this. In fact, thank you, thank you, thank you!

I was so hoping someone would blog this, because ACFD, I followed the link you had set up from ultrabrown into youtube, from where I watched all the parts, first of the Hyderabadi, then of the Bihari, and then of the Dehlavi shows. Super-excellimento, in terms of authenticity, dialogue, delivery, content.

The two actors playing the roles of Hyderabadi, Bihari and Dehlavi (i) muhajir and (ii) visitor from India - are extremely good at what they do, I was left gasping at how well they showed both the regional variation in the Urdu accent, and the mindset and preoccupations, both of the mohajir and the visitor.

In each case, the mohajir is shown as being somewhat bourgeois, and affecting the corresponding airs, and the visitor from India as someone poorer and therefore a bit cruder (the mild classism I can live with; in part this does reflect the reality of who could and did migrate and who was left behind, in the 1940s and 1950s. The slightly 'darker' representation of the Hyderabadi visitor in part also reflects the color dimension of class - the upper middle classes migrated, the poor who couldn't were also, on average, darker.)

The actual content of their dialogue is superb, and contains occassional sarcastic commentary both on Indian and Pakistani politics (within the latitude allowed by Pakistan TV). The comedy show is set up as a serious discussion of an actual cricket series, and the particular conceit of the show is that the talk show host 'loses control' of the show, because his hosts assert themselves and get aggressive - every moderator's real-life nightmare - but provides an element of 'reality' and further authenticity. He has used this technique before in other comedy shows in PTV - and in this particular realization, has really shown its power.

I feel sad the cricket series is over and cannot form the context for more shows in which the Lakhnavi, Barelvi, Bhopali, Ludhianvi, etc accents are also spoofed. I think at worst this is like Canadians spoofing all the varieties of American accents that exist - not offensive whatsoever, and in this case marvelously authentic and very well done.

So - for all those who can spare time to watch the videos, all on youtube - they are excellent entertainment, so two thumbs up from me. DBDs will really like the authenticity of the representations which both Bollywood and other Indian media never spoof, out of PCness.

KT,

in that list, just out of curiosity? Are most of them in front of the camera or behind? I know very little about Bollywood, so the individual names mean nothing to me.

is the differnece between hyderabad urdu and pakistan urdu lik the difference between quebecois and the french spoken in paris, or is it just an accent?

Kush: No one is wailing dude, I am just stating a fact that where S. Indians are referenced by N. Indians it is almost always as a buffoon. There's only one other ethno-linguitic group that has its Indian bona fides questioned as much and that is people from the NE with "Asian" phenotype. Not that I care given that where I am sitting there is an inverse relationship between proximity to Delhi and progress

because his hosts assert themselves and get aggressive

guests

although in Bollywood I would argue Southies and Biharis get screwed... harder?

I would think that South Indians are not so much part of the bollywood b/c of course language - I know in Kerala most people do not understand Hindi. So I'm not sure if the South Indian actors get screwed when there is a very large South Indian cinema scene and lots of money to be made there.

But don't Biharis speak Hindi?

But then recently I've noticed some major bollywood stars are S. Indian, like Ash and Shilpa Shetty.

in that list, just out of curiosity? Are most of them in front of the camera or behind? I know very little about Bollywood, so the individual names mean nothing to me.

All of them - front and behind. Look at the list carefully......some of them like Kapoor family (the first family of Bollywood), Roshan family, Doel family do it all - act, direct, produce.

That list is a tiny fraction - like Raveena Tandon father is a famous director, and is missing from the list.

HMF, some of them (Chopra, Roshan, Karan Johar) are behind the camera, but most are in front. Also Om Puri is related to Amrish Puri and Madan Puri. It's also fascinating that the #1 Bollywood actresses (FWIW) have been mostly from the South - Vyjyanthimala, Hema Malini, Rekha, Sridevi. Madhuri Dixit is Maharashtrian.

I would think that South Indians are not so much part of the bollywood b/c of course language

well....its not just lack of presence. its active portrayal as a wierdo.

It's also fascinating that the #1 Bollywood actresses (FWIW) have been mostly from the South - Vyjyanthimala, Hema Malini, Rekha, Sridevi. Madhuri Dixit is Maharashtrian.

Yes, it has always been. Add Jayalalitha too.

Runa: Is it common for Indian actors to act in Pakistani tv shows and vice versa?

we S. Indians are darker than Punjabis

totally O/T but in KT's list, kulbhushan kharbanda jumped out at me - he's one of the most versatile actors out there - though he played up his punjabi roots to the hilt in bollywood/hollywood and monsoon wedding.

well....its not just lack of presence. its active portrayal as a wierdo.

well....its not just lack of presence. its active portrayal as a wierdo.

I guess I don't watch enuff bollywood to get that pattern

The two actors playing the roles of Hyderabadi, Bihari and Dehlavi

Do you mean the Delhi Urdu accent by Dehlavi? It sounded more Bollywood/Bombay than Delhi to me.

Clearly my perception of "domination" is totally totally skewed :)

is the differnece between hyderabad urdu and pakistan urdu lik the difference between quebecois and the french spoken in paris, or is it just an accent?

But don't Biharis speak Hindi?

cry me a river, Pinda

ahh...excellent. if you ever talk about discrimination or media portrayal, thats what i should tell you instead of actually thinking about what your saying. good idea...

All of them - front and behind. Look at the list carefully......some of them like Kapoor family (the first family of Bollywood), Roshan family, Doel family do it all - act, direct, produce

So they're somewhat similar to the Jews in Hollywood

Hollywood Pioneers:

Samuel Goldwyn, Louis B. Mayer, William Fox, Jesse L. Lasky, Carl Laemmle, Marcus Loew, Adolph Zukor, and the original Warner Brothers ( Harry Warner (1881–1958), Albert Warner (1883–1967), Sam Warner (1887–1927) and Jack L. Warner (1892–1978), )

ahh...excellent. if you ever talk about discrimination or media portrayal, thats what i should tell you instead of actually thinking about what your saying. good idea...

dude, i was totally kidding. and too lazy to write anything of real substance in response. for the record, it's quite annoying to me to see this portrayal of south indians speaking hindi - at least they try. no wonder people from the south (esp. tamilians) get so annoyed with the imposition of hindi as the 'national' language.

is the differnece between hyderabad urdu and pakistan urdu lik the difference between quebecois and the french spoken in paris, or is it just an accent?

There are variations in grammar, vocabulary, verb declensions, intonation, delivery among the two. But, as for Indian Urdu as a whole, the essential aspect of note is that there are very significant variations within - there is no single Indian Urdu, and that is the point of the show. The real difficulty in comparison with Quebecois and Parisienne, however, is that, (ironically) Urdu is not native to Pakistan whatsoever, in the sense that French is to Paris.

The canonical form of Urdu that has now become standard in the (vernacular) educated classes in Pakistan has a high Persian vocabulary content, with a mixture of Urdu speaking styles once common in Delhi and UP, and a Punjabi-style accent in speech forms laid on top. To the extent that the language migrated with the Quebecois and froze in place as it was in the 18th century, it is Pakistani Urdu which might deserve that comparison, some centuries hence, not Hyderabadi! Pakistani Urdu in this sense bears a correspondence with Indian Hindi, with Sanskrit replacing Persian as the source of vocab.

Chachaji #56 - thanks for the explanation b/c I was lost;

Having grown up in the US, I think there is an instant aversion to anything to do with blackface. Your (Chachaji's) perception of the show gives a different understanding of the actual humor ---- did you grow up in India? I don't think I'd find this offensive if there was an underlying idea, that these are stereotypes and the actors are making fun of people who stereotype ---- like the humor of SNL,Wayne's World, or Ali G.

I was left gasping at how well they showed both the regional variation in the Urdu accent

I disagree, Chachaji :)

Hyderabadi accent and Karachi accent have as much in common as the English and Irish accent.
It takes no special skill to portray the Hyderabadi or the Bihari accent as different from the regular Delhi/UP accent. Now if they were to differentiate between the Urdu accents of Western UP from Eastern UP, Karachi Cosmopolitan from Delhi Cosmopolitan, then they deserve some kudos. Hyderabadi and Bihari accents are too easy.

Hi all and Anna,

Re: the outrage and accents - speaking as a Hyderabadi - Javed Jaafri was right on with what is typically 'an old city' (meaning people who live in old Hyderabad) accent - I remember the jokes us Hyderabadis would crack up to donning these accents -- its actually a lot of fun when done in Hyd because we are not laughing at anyone but laughing at ourselves. Also -- I used to find Mehmood's Hyderabadi accent very irritating because it was more Karnataka dakhni urdu than Hyderabadi Dakhni. I remember as a child we would get a ton of audio cassettes with Hyderabadi jokes (I know you still get them - because a friend of mine said he'd bought some in the 90's) - and the folks who enjoy them the most are Hyderabadis. And, yes - I could understand every single word spoken and its extremely hilarious and funny -- as for the blackface and the buck teeth - that is annoying caricature. And, I know that when its done in Pakistan - it seems more like they are laughing at Hyderabadis rather than with them. But - again - Moin Akhtar's jokes were extremely popular in Old city Hyderabad (where I had some family in the 70s and 80s - and remember being in splits listening to the jokes).

So all in all - the accent part -- very, very authentic - more so than Mehmood. The blackface and buck teeth - annoying and unecessary....there you have it - a clarification from a true blue Hyderabadi...:-)

Ha. This is from wiki, contradicting my previous message:

"He was often thought to be the brother or cousin of late actors Madan Puri and Amrish Puri but he was not related to them."

I stand corrected as of now. Will have to do some research to find out if the above statement's correct or not.

One mild clarification - in each case, the 'mohajir' speaks a mildly 'refined' regional style of Indian Urdu, while the 'visitor' speaks a 'cruder', version, the show's creative host using this to illustrate also the class dimension of linguistic and 'dialectual' variation. (Thanks Camille for that word :))Only the host himself is speaking 'Pakistani Urdu'.

Kush, is it fair to characterize this as "wailing"? I don't think it is whining to request more information regarding something submitted as a tip, by one of our most "senior" commenters. Especially when said tip is potentially SO offensive to, you know, greasy black South Indians, like me.

It's interesting that you're dismissive of all of this, because from your name, I'd guess that you are not South Indian. So perhaps this wouldn't resonate with you, the way it did with me; I didn't understand it, but when I posted about my spider sense "tingling", in part I was remembering my parents' stories about vicious anti-Southie racism while in College, in North India.

::

PindaUSA,

I'll cry you a river. I think one of the reasons my parents didn't bother with Bollywood was because of the shittiness of productions like this-- Christian girls are sluts, South Indians are inferior, Punjabis are buffoons etc. You're right, I do think there has been a tendency to be less than fair to those who are portrayed as nowhere near fair-skinned. The fact that the great Bolly-actresses came from the South is bullshit when it comes to establishing parity, because they were successful precisely because they could "pass" for Northern. If Bollywood actors and actresses don't look like the average desi, then Hema Malini and SriDevi don't look like the average Malaylee or Tamil woman.

::

One of the reasons why we're worth reading is because of the quality (or quantity) of discussion. As it is, too many people feel intimidated and remain lurkers; this is one of my biggest concerns with SM. I will not tolerate a situation where perfectly normal comments are flamed and courteous commenters are personally attacked on this blog, not while I'm part of it. It's bad enough people are too scared to contribute their potentially valuable and interesting voices, I'll be damned if some of you scare off the few who are good enough to speak up.

The fact that the great Bolly-actresses came from the South is bullshit, when it comes to establishing parity because they made it precisely because they could "pass" for Northern.

I was stating a fact, not the reasons behind their success, nor denying that BW does not stereotype other communities.

I was stating a fact, not the reasons behind their success, nor denying that BW does not stereotype other communities.

I know you were stating a fact, and an interesting one at that. :) I'm just sick of that same fact being thrown my way when I bring up stereotypes about South Indians in BW. My ire wasn't aimed your way, I assure you.

Hyderabadi, thanks for your clarifying comments. I've only ever been to Hyderabad through its airport, on the way to Bangalore - kind of like the only time I've been in the South is when I went through Atlanta and DFW airports. That doesn't mean I can't tell a spot-on spoof of the Southern drawl, and I'm glad to see my sense of the Hyderabadi authenticity similarly confirmed!

Hyderabadi- great contribution to the thread. Thank you, much. :) I appreciate it.

So this wouldn't resonate with you, the way it did with me

Camille:

Meanwhile, Punjabis in India have been relentlessly ridiculed/lampooned in Indian popular media until the last 10-15 years (and we're still often a "caricature" or the villain

I am sorry but a big disagree on this one. Take a good look at Indian popular media over the last so many years and tell me which group is lampooned more. Its true that Punjabis/Punjabi culture absolutely dominates not just movies but also TV serials so the question of Punjabis ridiculously lampooning themselves does not arise

Chachaji:

Super-excellimento, in terms of authenticity, dialogue, delivery, content.

Dialogue,delivery maybe.But its okay to show a Southie Hyderabdi as a blackface, buck-toothed buffoon? Surely if the dialogues are so good they do not need an unnecessary prop in the form of offensive makeup?

My original point ( in # 15) was this:
I do not see this as some grand racial conspiracy by Pakistan to make fun of Indians. Rather an extension of the offensive lampooning of South Indians that has been part of popular media in India itself for so many years.

Runa, you Madrasi, you. ;) Allow me to explain why we Lemurians are inferior to Scythians...

I am sorry but a big disagree on this one. Take a good look at Indian popular media over the last so many years and tell me which group is lampooned more. Its true that Punjabis/Punjabi culture absolutely dominates not just movies but also TV serials so the question of Punjabis ridiculously lampooning themselves does not arise

As plenty of people have pointed out, Indian movies are full of stereotypes (one reason I stopped watching them in middle school); On the other hand, I think one should clarify what one means by "racism". If the term is used here to mean perpetuation of unkind and unflattering stereotypes and hence social distance, then its fine. But in the U.S. context it means more that than that; it also implies power inequalities, i.e. such social distance is correlated with differences in income, political power, wealth, even self-perception (the latter an outcome of the first three). I don't think you can say the same in the Indian context (where caste is more a marker of such power inequalities). No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.). So I suggest people clarify the sense in which they are using the term "racism".

Runa, you Madrasi, you. ;) Allow me to explain why we Lemurians are inferior to Scythians...

now...all we need is another group to dump on. then the circle of life continues!

how irritating it is to be labelled "Madarasi

one of my pakistani friends (and because he's pakistani, knows very little about the regional differences that exist in india) calls south indians 'ande podle' - because that's how all south indian languages sound phonetically to him! try as i might, he refuses to drop this phrase, even after i told him how racist and insulting it is. the worst part is that he learned it from his own dad - i'm going to have to do some solid training when his children come around...

runa - i do have to disagree on the ridiculous lampooning - it might not happen to the extent of other regions, but there are definitely instances where the punjabi 'poor relations' are too loud, bright, jolly etc for the taste of their city/bombya counterparts.

No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.).

he refuses to drop this phrase, even after i told him how racist and insulting it is.

ahh...because pakistan is a region of the world thats really hard to lampoon.

No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.).

and it most definitely happens in social situations - part of the reason why my parents have mostly tamil friends, and shy away from socializing in certain non-south indian desi groups, is because they've actually been made to feel uncomfortable due to their south-indian-ness. one of my own friends even told me that the reason she's closer to me than one of our malayali-american friends is because i can speak and understand hindi - i.e. our other friend's south-indian-ness (or failure to take on some north-indian-ness) prevented a certain closeness.

But its okay to show a Southie Hyderabdi as a blackface, buck-toothed buffoon?

Notice that there are two Hyderabadis, (just as there are two Biharis and two Dehlavis) - one more 'refined', the other 'poorer and cruder'. The buck-toothedness is depicted so realistically, the actor carries off the prop so well, along with the props for the cross-eyedness - that I thought they represented a real medical condition of the actor. I salute this level of acting professionalism.

Also, I think a show like that has to derive humor from dialogue and delivery and autheniticity, but has to have some slapstick elements too. In this case the bucktoothedness is not gratuitous whatsoever - to the extent that bucktoothedness is a treatable medical condition if recognized early enough - it is less likely to be available to someone who is poor. In this sense it adds to the authenticity of the class representation. Unlike, for example, Apu, there is no paucity of representations - there is no room for believing, even within the parameters of this show, that all Hyderabadis are bucktoothed. There is a 'refined' Hyderabadi right there!

There is no need to censor out even the possibility that some people out there, even Hyderabadis, may in fact be bucktoothed.

my dad (a south indian who grew up in north india) would disagree..he was systematically and consistantly discriminated against (in his view).

Ahh, I meant in the aggregate. Are South Indians living in "north" India systematically disadvantaged? And can this be traced to their SOuth Indian-ness? The only instance I can think of that comes even close is the Shiv-Sena inspired and led anti-South Indian riots in Bombay slums (which led to the creation of South Indian gangs, and rise of people like "big" Rajan). But even this is a very very imperfect (almost not) of what I am talking about.

one of my own friends even told me that the reason she's closer to me than one of our malayali-american friends is because i can speak and understand hindi -

I met this chick from Delhi, I told her I never learned Hindi,

she says, "You don't speak Hindi" in a shocking tone.

I respond, "Nope... but I do breathe oxygen, believe it or not."

one of my own friends even told me that the reason she's closer to me than one of our malayali-american friends is because i can speak and understand hindi - i.e. our other friend's south-indian-ness (or failure to take on some north-indian-ness) prevented a certain closeness.

This is an outrage! Our refusal to be co-opted is being used to abuse us! Lemurians, MuraliMannered and everyone else-- man your stations, the dread Northies are at it again. Arrrr.

(Seriously, though, that's sad. I've heard the same awesome reasoning applied my way, because I'm xtian, and the person couldn't relate to me, because of that. Ah, I love how people in our community love to broadcast shit...I would have never been the wiser, had the Hindu girl's confidante not run straight to me, apres hearing this juicy, juicy rumor-goodness...)

I respond, "Nope... but I do breathe oxygen, believe it or not."

i dont suppose you were trying to get *ction (were you?)

But in the U.S. context it means more that than that; it also implies power inequalities, i.e. such social distance is correlated with differences in income, political power, wealth, even self-perception (the latter an outcome of the first three). I don't think you can say the same in the Indian context (where caste is more a marker of such power inequalities). No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.). So I suggest people clarify the sense in which they are using the term "racism".

Yes, I was thinking the same thing.

Since I don't watch enuff Indian shows/movies, I just find it hard to say whether I'm offended by this "blackface" for hyderbadis and I'm South Indian. Hema Malini and Ash are just as South Indian as anyone else who's South Indian; I don't consider them "passing" for North Indian. I just see them as light-skinned and whether your light-skinned northern person or light-skinned southern person, your light skin will be prized. Their fair-skin is prized in Hindi cinema and I'd also think Tamil cinema, etc. As for the South Indian actresses features - they're very South Indian in my eyes. Small nose - cute face - That's my impression of what are typical South Indian features - of course as actresses, they are going to be more beautiful than an average person walking the street. Same in Hollywood - same in pretty much any entertainment business.

This is an outrage! Our refusal to be co-opted is being used to abuse us! Lemurians, MuraliMannered and everyone else-- man your stations, the dread Northies are at it again. Arrrr.

(Seriously, though, that's sad. I've heard the same awesome reasoning applied my way, because I'm xtian, and the person couldn't relate to me, because of that. Ah, I love how people in our community love to broadcast shit...I would have never been the wiser, had the Hindu girl's confidante not run straight to me, apres hearing this juicy, juicy rumor-goodness...)

i love it when people lack the ability to relate to someone who is the slightest bit different than them...its like something out of a tribal war taking place 5000 years ago.

Chachaji and Anna,

You are most welcome. Happy to be able to clarify.

Also, vis-a-vis the characterization i.e. the blackface etc -- I couldn't agree more that its a stereotype that the North Indians and Pakistanis engage in with South Indians. I remember there used to be all these stereotypes in Hyderabad about Pakistanis as well -- as being stuck-up and self-absorbed and condescending - and the way Pakistani urdu is spoken was made fun as well -- could be that it was in retaliation - but stereotyping of anyone is very annoying. But, I find the North Indian vs. South Indian stereotyping even more annoying perhaps because one comes across it so much more often -- 'oh, you people - how crude that you eat rice with your fingers rather than a spoon' etc -- hopefully its gotten better now, with the South coming into greater focus now with the IT industry. Btw, Outlook India did a special issue on North vs. South India - with interesting articles by Ramachandra Guha and others - there were several facts and figures kinds of articles also about how the South has leapt ahead quite a bit in the recent past. Some of the articles were very insightful into these North-South differences that we are discussing here.

are going to be more beautiful than an average person walking the street

who wants to watch average looking people doing average looking things...i do that every day...

'oh, you people - how crude that you eat rice with your fingers rather than a spoon'

muahaha! leaves more rice for me! i mean, rice with more. more sadu

Hema Malini and Ash are just as South Indian as anyone else who's South Indian; I don't consider them "passing" for North Indian

Yes, they are South Indian in real life, but that's not what I meant-- I'm pointing out that in the movies I've seen with these beautiful women, their characters are North Indian, not gorgeous, cute-faced Tamil ladies who just happened to marry Amitabh (or his son). They can convincingly play a Punjabi Hindu housewife, or whatever. That's what I meant by "passing".

their characters are North Indian, not gorgeous, cute-faced Tamil ladies who just happened to marry Amitabh (or his son).

thats cause an inter racial couple would involve a screaming 3 hour sub-plot with 6 song and dance numbers.

As plenty of people have pointed out, Indian movies are full of stereotypes (one reason I stopped watching them in middle school); On the other hand, I think one should clarify what one means by "racism". If the term is used here to mean perpetuation of unkind and unflattering stereotypes and hence social distance, then its fine. But in the U.S. context it means more that than that; it also implies power inequalities, i.e. such social distance is correlated with differences in income, political power, wealth, even self-perception (the latter an outcome of the first three).

I absolutely won't compare the situation of African-Americans to that of South Indians..we are ridiculed but never lynched.

I don't think you can say the same in the Indian context (where caste is more a marker of such power inequalities). No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.).

Umm...maybe because in the South we created our own opportunities to make up for our lack of Delhi/Mumbai clout ?

So I suggest people clarify the sense in which they are using the term "racism".

Racism is an apt word because we are seen as a different race by the people who abuse us. We aren't talking about dress, food customers etc...the "humor" is based on our phsyical traits. And I also take issue with people who pretend there are no differences in the genetic history of desis from different caste/linguistic background, this has been proven by science. We are all a mix, with the composition varying by locale. The issue is not whether desis have mixed, diverse origins but what people make of that genetic diversity

The south shall rise again.

As for the South Indian actresses features - they're very South Indian in my eyes. Small nose - cute face - That's my impression of what are typical South Indian features

I never really thought of this; if I'm around anyone who is pointing out a nose, it's because the proboscis we are discussing is big and the person to whom it belongs is usually of Northern extraction. I never stopped to think of if that meant South Indians had the opposite, i.e. "small noses". The only trait I really associate with a "South Indian" face is big, round eyes.

South Indians have been a part of Delhi Bombay society for as far as I can remember. Matunga, Chembur are two of the Bombay neighborhoods that immediately come to mind. A lot of big business in Delhi and Bombay are headed by South Indians, specifically Larsen and Toubro, Tata Consultancy, and I can look up more but I am a little busy. I am not sure if all that is being said here is the American experience or just hearsay.

thats cause an inter racial couple would involve a screaming 3 hour sub-plot with 6 song and dance numbers.

That's interesting...so you would consider a Tamil person marrying a UP person an interracial marriage? How about if the Tamil person is very light-skinned and the UP person is very dark?

Yes, they are South Indian in real life, but that's not what I meant-- I'm pointing out that in the movies I've seen with these beautiful women, their characters are North Indian, not gorgeous, cute-faced Tamil ladies who just happened to marry Amitabh

Yes, it doesn't seem so hard to make Hema M. a Tamilian or whatever she is who is living in.. delhi or wherever the plot takes her. But I would think since Hindi cinema is Hindi, than it's going to be set in Hindi-speaking states or Hindi-speaking urban areas and the question to ask is: is it regional or some people are calling it racial prejudice that the South Indian actresses characters are not shown as a Malyalee living in Rajasthan (oh that would be cool) or is it just convenience to get to the heart of the story?

Aren't there a lot of other North Indian actors who's first language who aren't Hindus but have to portray one in the movie? ARen't there many North Indian actors who play a bombayite or Rajasthani or Kashmiri who actually aren't from that place? these aren't rhetorical questions b/c I just don't watch a lot of bollywood (but I so love the songs) but I would think (from the little I've watched) is that the answer is yes, to the above questions.

i dont suppose you were trying to get *ction (were you?)

Not really, but even if I was, it wouldn't have changed my response. I have a pet peeve with HindiSnobs.

Here's the article that Ramachandra Guha wrote as an Outlook india cover story in July I think. I don't have a login for Outlook so the link is from another site that I just found online. Ramachandra Guha is a respected historian - take what you will of his take on this North-South divide. The article is called - 'The Better Half' -- in general I am very uncomfortable with blatant comparisons and the 'who's better' game regardless of who's playing it - I think they only hurt dialogue....but he also has some insights into history etc....

http://www.sangam.org/2007/07/Better_Half.php?uid=2458

Btw, Outlook India did a special issue on North vs. South India - with interesting articles by Ramachandra Guha and others - there were several facts and figures kinds of articles also about how the South has leapt ahead quite a bit in the recent past.

Hyderabadi, thanks for mentioning this! Yes, the whole issue of outlookindia.com dated July 16 2007 is called Dakshin Rising and is about this issue. (you may need to log on, but it's free to get a login, unlike NYT etc). Guha's essay is called The Better Half.

I apologize, L&T CEO is maharashtrian, some more prominent CEOs of South Indian origin

Akhila Srinivasan, Managing Director, Shriram Investments Ltd
Rajshree Pathy, Chairman, Rajshree Sugars and Chemicals Ltd
Renuka Ramnath, CEO, ICICI Ventures
Vineet Nayyar, Tech Mahindra
S Ramodorai, Tata Consultancy

Chachaji - I found the article elsewhere where I didn't need to login. Sorry - I forgot to link to the article in my previous post -- here's the linked article:

The Better Half - Ramachandra Guha

South Indians have been a part of Delhi Bombay society for as far as I can remember...I am not sure if all that is being said here is the American experience or just hearsay.

That's like saying person X didn't experience poor treatment in NYC or SF. What about outside of those major cities?

I really don't think my Mother has any reason to lie about daily harassment in Nagpur; she is rather blunt, but honest, to a fault. Maybe Puli's dad and my Mom are the only two South Indians who got treated like crap...and they're both in America now, so you're right, it's the American experience.

Awww A N N A, you are a wicked charmer. I bet you sensed my need to keep a low profile and write fewer lines here, so you decided to go ahead and appeal to my big, personal ego.

Well, sorry molle, I am the wrong person to help you out here because I don't know much HIndi (only enough to bargain in Palika Bazaar and not enough to pick up on accents). Also, like your parents, my parents too denied me the pleasures on Indian cinema until I was old enough (and then it became too late for me to succumb to its charms without questioning a million things).

Whether or not Northerners are routinely made fun of in S. Indian movies, I cannot tell you, but I can tell you that in general the level/type of comedy that is in Tamil movies do not appeeal to me. It is a very slap stick or physical type of comedy; never subtle; always too loud and too obvious and too obnoxious for my taste. And there was a period when dwarfs (or people with physical disabilities) were routinely used/abused for the comedy effects. (or maybe it wasn't exactly a long period of time; it was perhaps just my uncomfortable impression based on one or two movies?) So, in general, my opinion on comedy in Tamil movies is not a favorable one. I usually feel uncomfortable whatever group or individual is targeted.

And having gone to an all-girls, Protestant school (which interestingly stressed and appreciated Sanskrit and 'Indian' values and art) that in some ways was constructed along the lines of a finishing school (I am embarrassed to say this) my English was never allowed to be Tamil-accented (at least, that is what I thought/think). So I sometimes found it puzzling (and sort of funny) when an occassional Mumbaikar with a distinct Mumbai lilt/accent or a Delhite with a Punjabi-accented English made the standard references to Tamil/Chennai/South accent and laughed generously and unself-consciously since the opportunity was there anyway in the form of me. I am still confused about whether they actually heard the accent in my voice or not.

and to add insult to injury 'madras' isn't even pronounced properly when people say 'madrasi'!

oh, you people - how crude that you eat rice with your fingers rather than a spoon'

Anna#115,

I think the tone your response is uncalled for, I was respectfully stating facts in response to earlier assertions that South Indians have been discrimnated and they have to create their own opportunities, I was responding to generalizations and my intent probably was not clear.
The actresses you and other posters mention all live in big cities that is why my response, Aishwarya Rai is born and raised in Bombay hence the comparison is not fair. I am not sure if mocking in movies equates mocking everyone in daily life. All I was trying to highlight was that the mockery in real life is nowhere near as grave as the some make it out to be.
The purpose of the dialogue for me is to present a balanced picture of both sides, generalizations at either end don't serve the dialogue any good.
Nowhere in my posts I implied that your mom's or Puliogre's parents' experiences are not accurate. I just asked a simple question if the discrimination being spoken about was faced by the posters in America or they have heard (hearsay) about it from others.

To clarify (I hope) no one is denying the following (the italicized part; i have experienced it myself):
If the term is used here to mean perpetuation of unkind and unflattering stereotypes and hence social distance, then its fine.

oh, you people - how crude that you eat rice with your fingers rather than a spoon'
Include me (a Northie) in that group of 'crude' people.

I had a North Indian say something about South Indians eating with their hands and I was kindof at a loss for words b/c I thought North Indians also ate with their hands. They eat more bread, like chapathi and such and isn't all that eaten with their hands?

It's so easy to clean-up after a banana meal feast - love eating that way!

and it most definitely happens in social situations - part of the reason why my parents have mostly tamil friends, and shy away from socializing in certain non-south indian desi groups, is because they've actually been made to feel uncomfortable due to their south-indian-ness. one of my own friends even told me that the reason she's closer to me than one of our malayali-american friends is because i can speak and understand hindi - i.e. our other friend's south-indian-ness (or failure to take on some north-indian-ness) prevented a certain closeness.

Aren't there a lot of other North Indian actors who's first language who aren't Hindus but have to portray one in the movie?

Amit, that's what chapatis are for. (eating your rajma chawal). I keed.

And there was a period when dwarfs (or people with physical disabilities) were routinely used/abused for the comedy effects.

This happens in Hindi film as well. There is a song from the movie "Naksha" features a song and dance number with a group of small people dressed up in "tribal" gear. The film was supposed to be some sort of Indiana Jones inspired deal.

Oh, and sigh!, I was going to agree with you. If there isn't the dynamic of social hierarchies/power dynamics, then I'm not sure I would term this racism per se, but certainly racist/regionalist/classist humor.

PS,

Its the rice-eating with one's hands that some folks from the north have a problem with - not the other stuff like rotis etc. I've had friends from Delhi imitate slurping noises that South Indians supposedly make while eating rice and rasam....

I see everyone mentioned most stuff I wanted to anyway, but being a hyderabadi , I thought I might add this Khushwant Singh joke I read long long ago, reproduced as I remember (obviously, not word-to-word)
..

Passenger to a taxi driver: Why do Hyderabadi ppl say 'Hau' instead of 'Haan' , to convey their agreement in Hindi?

TD: No saar, that's not true. Educated and decent people use 'Haan' or 'Haan ji'to convey agreement. Others just give a bad impression about our accent and Hindi speaking skills.

Passenger: Oh,you use 'Haan' and 'Haan ji', you must be then properly educated and well bred.

TD: Hau.

Brown@108 abd 118,
I personally have experienced the mocking of being a S. Indian. My ex's family was Punjabi, and they constantly mocked my s. indianness (though I am of s. indian origin and never actually lived in India.) From the way I ate rice, to my "accent" (mid-atlantic?), to my trying to speak to them in Hindi/Punjabi. At least I tried. In many years of marriage, my ex never learned how to say anything in my native language.

I think growing up in the US makes me (an others like me, if I may be so bold) more sensitive to racist/culturist overtones, because we were (are?) subject to them so frequently. I notice that people in Desh, just let it slide, and retort with another joke.

We ABD's, OTOH, are a little more sensitive and have our spider-sense on all the time.

Runa, you Madrasi, you. ;) Allow me to explain why we Lemurians are inferior to Scythians...

thats cause an inter racial couple

Anna/PindaUS,
:-)
Thank you for opening my eyes to the fact that I have been in an interracial marriage all these years and did not even know it! ( This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Elaine thinks she is dating an African American and so is in an interracial relationship while the guy thinks the same coz he thinks she is Hispanic !)

Since we have got onto the topic of South Indian heroines making it big in Hindi cinema , what say you all about the reverse trend: Khushboo - one of the biggest stars in Tamil cinema is Punjabi!

Malathi,
Hear you on the accent. Every time someone says "Oh you are South Indian but you dont look South indian or have a 'south Indian ' accent" - I want to scream!!

PS,

Its the rice-eating with one's hands that some folks from the north have a problem with - not the other stuff like rotis etc. I've had friends from Delhi imitate slurping noises that South Indians supposedly make while eating rice and rasam....i>

I thought North Indians also ate rice with their hands. I had to go to a gurudwara in DC for about a year b/c of work I was doing and I'm pretty sure, during the meal that they served most people ate with their hands.

Lifelong,
Your response is much appreciated, I am not trying to slight anyone's experiences but am trying to understand where everyone is coming from. I have an issue with generalization which is most here seem to indulge in.

I see everyone mentioned most stuff I wanted to anyway, but being a hyderabadi , I thought I might add this Khushwant Singh joke I read long long ago, reproduced as I remember (obviously, not word-to-word)..

This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Elaine thinks she is dating an African American and so is in an interracial relationship while the guy thinks the same coz he thinks she is Hispanic

"So we're just a couple of white people"

"Guess so. What do you wanna do?"

"Wanna go to the gap?"

"Yeah that sounds good"

I had a North Indian say something about South Indians eating with their hands and I was kindof at a loss for words b/c I thought North Indians also ate with their hands. They eat more bread, like chapathi and such and isn't all that eaten with their hands?

PS, I can't speak for all Punjabis, but in my family and among most of my relatives who live in the North, it was fine to eat rice + daal/rajma with fingers. Yes, we also ate roti using hands/fingers. Though when I think of one rich relative, they definitely disapproved of it - they were just a bit "proper" and "modern" :) - drinking tea that was brewed/steeped the British way rather than boiled in a pot; preferring bottled drinks like thums-up instead of freshly-squeezed lemon juice/rooh-afza etc. etc. I think in this particular case, it had more to do with status rather than looking down on south indians.

All I was trying to highlight was that the mockery in real life is nowhere near as grave as the some make it out to be.

I have been mocked at for this

I've had friends from Delhi imitate slurping noises that South Indians supposedly make while eating rice and rasam....

Of all places in Coimbatore, by a bunch of kids from North India who were settled there.

And do not get me started on times when I used to take curd rice for lunch in Bombay. Curd rice and pickle? How could you eat that?

I think the tone your response is uncalled for, I was respectfully stating facts in response to earlier assertions that South Indians have been discrimnated and they have to create their own opportunities, I was responding to generalizations and my intent probably was not clear.

No, it wasn't, not to me, and that is why I fired back the way I did-- I apologize for my tone. You sounded like you were skeptical and I wasn't sure how I (or Puli for that matter) could respond to your statement, short of considering our parents liars. In my late teens, my mom was so haunted by what she went through, she couldn't handle my dating an ABD North Indian boy, even though I told her repeatedly that I couldn't relate to her perception of difference between us, because everyone in America who is desi is just...brown. We fought over this many times and it's one of the only instances I can recall where a disagreement between us inspired HER to cry. Now I look back and regret that I was such a dick, but hey, I was young and stupid.

My larger point is, these experiences are obviously real, and not baseless rumors, and using words like "hearsay" are hurtful. While I appreciate the attempt to clarify what certain words mean, I don't want to get bogged down in semantics; is there a better word than racism, for what my Mother experienced?

Hell, I experienced a little bit of whatever it is in grad school, which was the first time I had the opportunity to really mingle with DBDs. One of them-- who was a Punjabi from Delhi-- had an utterly charming bit of sign language he liked to use in order to refer to me; he'd lick his elbow and then everyone would laugh uproariously, as if it were the most clever thing in the world. What an asshole.

See? There's a reason for a lot of this sensitivity, on the part of my Lemurian peers.

i have already commented on this site a few times about various types of insults i have received from north indians (in america only), always from people close to my age. a memorable insult came at dinner at a north indian restaurant -- 4 white people, one north indian, and me. northie says to the group, "thank god you didn't let milli choose the restaurant; i couldn't have stomached eating south indian food ... it's like one big mushy mess, like vomit or something." most recently, a north indian told me he felt a greater kinship with other north indians because "even [your] gods at the temple look weird." hmm, how insightful. i have always grown up with the sense that north indians think south indians are uncultured savages.

i also find it extremely annoying when people assume i speak hindi. i usually have to repeat "no, i really don't speak hindi" 5 or 6 times before strangers stop trying to converse with me in hindi and reply in horror, "so. you. don't. speak. HINDI???" that is usually quickly followed up with, "tah-meel? what is that?" i have met so many older north indians in the states who seemingly have never heard of tamil, let alone even know where madras is.

@Camille

Sidhu, I've heard the same joke, but the difference was "Haan ji" versus "Aho" (I am a fan of the "aho", personally, although it merits me a thappar upside the head with a rolled newspaper when I use it at my Nanas in front of company.)

Can't figure out if I've heard aho in hyderabad before (unless the English spelling is the closest to the sound we are trying to convey :)), anyways ur Nanas wanted u to be known as well bred :), no fault theirs.
Hau ya no?
:)

they were just a bit "proper" and "modern" :) - drinking tea that was brewed/steeped the British way rather than boiled in a pot; preferring bottled drinks like thums-up instead of freshly-squeezed lemon juice/rooh-afza etc. etc. I think in this particular case, it had more to do with status rather than looking down on south indians.

Amit - I agree that in some cases its got more to do with how one westernized one wants to come across rather than the South/North issue. PS - I think what you saw in the gurudwara is probably true i.e. people from the north eating rice with their fingers - its probably the more urbanized folks that have a real issue with this one rather than the older generation or more traditional folks. Anyways - my point in bringing up this example was just to illustrate how these stereotypes exist - doesn't mean that all of it is true - stereotypes are after all broad generalizations. ..and therefore not necessarily true in all cases - but are annoying all the same...

In my late teens, my mom was so haunted by what she went through, she couldn't handle my dating a North Indian boy, even though I told her repeatedly that I couldn't relate to her perception of difference between us, because everyone in America who is desi is just...brown. We fought over this many times and it's one of the only instances I can recall where a disagreement between us inspired HER to cry.

Oh, that is sad...wow it must have made quite an impact on her. I'm sorry she went through this.

PS, I can't speak for all Punjabis, but in my family and among most of my relatives who live in the North, it was fine to eat rice + daal/rajma with fingers. Yes, we also ate roti using hands/fingers. Though when I think of one rich relative, they definitely disapproved of it - they were just a bit "proper" and "modern" :)

I don't eat rice with my hands either having grown up in the US and everyone is so nice to me when I visit india for making sure I've got a spoon or fork available. Anyways, Amit, that's my experience with N. Indians - that they also eat with their hands.

One thing that I've heard my parents say is that certain Christian groups in Kerala think they are better than others and one of my Christian Malyalee friends said her parents would really have a problem if she married a Hindu and would much rather have her marry a North Indian who was Chrisitan or even a Westerner who was Christian.

Hi folks,

We seem to be caught up in specific slights that each party feels have been hurled by the other in this north-south issue. I think stereotyping of either side is pretty egregious. Also, there have been some comments here about how these may just be perceived slights here in America and therefore not real - which really invalidates and riles people who have several personal incidents to back their views - so it may help to read this article that I had linked to earlier by Ramachandra Guha in one of the most well read and mainstream magazines in India - Outlook - only a month ago about the North-South issue and his take on it....again - I am including the article here in its entirety because I am hoping that it will put to rest some questions about whether such a divide even exists - if a respected historian based in India is saying it did - it probably did - wouldnt you say?

Read on and make what you want out of it....

The Better Half

by Ramachandra Guha, Outlook India, July 16, 2007

According to one study published in 2005, the per capita income of the southern states, taken together, was 50 per cent higher than the states of the north...The south's superiority might be demonstrated in qualitative ways as well: in the relative absence of communal violence, for example, or the greater emancipation of women.

Historically open to the outsider, and inclusive within, the south's emerged denominator on top

A Harvard historian once wrote a book explaining how the northern parts of a country always developed first and fastest. He based his thesis, as Harvard historians tend to do, on the nations of the Atlantic world. He went over the list one by one: Italy, Germany, England, and the United States. In these (and other) countries, the north had led the way in technical innovation, economic growth, political emancipation, and social reform. The differences between north and south were so extreme that sometimes—as in the United States—they even led to civil war.

I think it unlikely that the scholar had much acquaintance with the Republic of India, a land that has a long-standing—and well deserved—reputation for upturning the hypotheses of academic social science.

For it now appears that by most indicators of development, the south of India is comfortably ahead of the north. According to one study published in 2005, the per capita income of the southern states, taken together, was 50 per cent higher than the states of the north. At 74 percent, the literacy rate in the south was well in excess of the north's 59 per cent. As many as 74 per cent of southern households had electricity, compared to a mere 49 per cent in the north. The south's superiority might be demonstrated in qualitative ways as well: in the relative absence of communal violence, for example, or the greater emancipation of women.

That the south of India is more advanced than the north is now part of the conventional wisdom. As it happens, I am just about old enough to recall a time when the terms 'Madrasi' and 'South of the Vindhyas' denoted derision and scorn.

The typical North Indian regarded the typical South Indian as short, squat, black, effete—and vegetarian. But now, those once proud people are voting with their feet to move south. They come to write code in Bangalore's software companies, to labour on construction sites in Hyderabad, to work in coffee plantations in Coorg, or to do odds and ends in Chennai's film industry. Now, the stereotype of the South Indian among Punjabis and Biharis is that he is intelligent, hardworking, entrepreneurial, and open-minded. And that he can very often be a she. And, most importantly, that if you study well and behave yourself, she or he can give you a job.

Why is the south 'superior'? Why, when compared to other parts of India, does it attract more investment and appear to be more socially benign? To answer this question one needs to invoke both history and geography, sometimes acting singly, at other times in combination.

One striking difference between north and south India relates to how they have viewed people from far away. The foreigner came to the north as a marauder and conqueror; to the south, as a traveller and trader. This is as much true of 'foreign' religions as it is of foreign individuals. There were Christians in Kerala several centuries before there were Christians in Europe. Unlike their northern counterparts, the Moplah Muslims of Malabar speak Malayalam, not Urdu—besides, no one can accuse them of an identification with invaders or interlopers.

That the region has such an active coastline has of course contributed to this openness. Human communities who live along the sea are generally more curious and less insular than the inhabitants of deserts and mountains. People have come and gone down the centuries to and from the ports along the southern coasts, bringing or receiving new ideas, goods, and technologies.

The south enjoys geographical advantages in the hinterland as well. The topography and climate of the Deccan Plateau are congenial to human settlement and transportation. There is no Himalaya, and no Thar Desert either. In what are now the contiguous states of Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu, individuals and communities could very easily shift from one village or town to another, hundreds of miles distant.

This process of movement and migration led to a deep intermingling of castes, religions and—not least—linguistic groups.

Indeed, one reason for the south's current superiority, such as it is, has to do with the fact that it has historically been multilingual. Because the region has a long coast, and because its terrain is so easy to walk across, the towns of south India have for a very long while had speakers of many languages dwelling within them. Bangalore, for example, is the only city in the world that has daily film shows in as many as six languages (the four southern tongues, as well as English and Hindi).

Chennai has a million or more Telugu speakers. This linguistic pluralism is also manifest in the smaller towns of the region; so, whereas in Ludhiana you will hear only Punjabi and Hindi, in Coimbatore you will hear the six languages spoken in Bangalore, and Marathi as well.

That the residents of the four southern states are, on the whole, less bigoted and more forward-looking is a product not of their genes but of their environment. Over hundreds of years, they have learnt to live with people speaking different tongues or professing a different faith. At the same time, they have also learnt to be less discriminatory among themselves. Women in the south are less likely to be manhandled in a bus or train; they are also more likely to practise law or medicine, or run a business. This too has something to do with history and geography. Women's work is more crucial to (and hence more greatly valued in) rice as compared to wheat cultivation. Among some communities in south India, property was inherited through the female line. And, with no Rajputs or Mughals around as role models, there was little pressure to put women in purdah.

The comparative social egalitarianism of the south has other reasons and manifestations. Historically, there were fewer large zamindars than in the north and east; thus, many more peasants owned the land they tilled. The challenge to the caste system is more ancient and more robust than in the north. Medieval poets and reformers attacked the hegemony of the Brahmins; as, in the colonial period, did such men as Iyothee Thass and E.V. Ramaswami.

Since they have historically been more open to outsiders, as well as more inclusive within, the south has taken full advantage of the new global economy. Bangalore and Chennai have recently welcomed Frenchmen and Koreans as they once opened their gates to, respectively, Tamils and Andhras. In this part of India, history and mythology do not demand of Hindu youths that they set off, trishul in hand, in search of Christian priests or Muslim rickshaw-pullers. Those of different religions and none, men as well as women, high caste and low caste and obc, are all more intent on making a living than on fighting along the lines of identity. With a generally tolerant and peacable citizenry, investors need not fear that their factories will go up in flames. With a workforce that is disciplined as well as efficient, they can sit back, relax, and watch the numbers stack up.

To my knowledge, the first writer to see the southern surge coming was the Australian diplomat Walter Crocker. In his biography of Jawaharlal Nehru, published in 1966, Crocker observed that "south India has counted for too little in the Indian Republic. This is a waste for India as well as an unfairness to south India, because the south has a superiority in certain important things—its relative lack of violence, its lack of anti-Muslim intolerance, its lack of indiscipline and delinquency in the universities; in its better educational standards, its better government, and its cleanliness; in its far lesser practice of corruption and its little taste for Hindu revivalism. If the English language is to be saved to India as a living language it is the south that will save it".

Crocker's verdict is now widely endorsed. As an Indian of Tamil extraction who counts Bangalore as his hometown, I suppose I should take some pride in this. But as a historian I know only too well that in the history of humankind there are no permanent winners and losers. As I write, Hindu revivalists are, for the first time, in power in Karnataka. Successive governments in Tamil Nadu have been as corrupt as any in Uttar Pradesh or Haryana. Violence is endemic in Andhra Pradesh; practised with varying degrees of brutality by upper-caste landlords, mining magnates, religious fanatics, and Naxalites. The indiscipline and delinquency of the Malayalees has scared away investors both Indian and foreign. And there are deep divisions between town and country. There is a fabulous amount of wealth being generated in Bangalore and Hyderabad; travel an hour out of either city, and the faces one sees speak of a quiet desperation.

Southern complacency would be out of place, if only because nations once led by their northern halves have more recently witnessed a reversal of fortunes. It is the south of England that is rich and resurgent; the old northern towns of Manchester and Sheffield have become industrial graveyards. In the United States, the dash and elan of Atlanta and Dallas are in striking contrast to the demoralisation of Detroit and Pittsburgh. Who knows: a few decades down the line, perhaps historians will be asked to explain why Bihar is so much more prosperous and peaceful than Tamil Nadu.

(Ramachandra Guha is the author of India After Gandhi.)

milli, I'm sorry about your experience, and it's unfortunate when people carry their Indian prejudices even in the US - I would think that living in this country at least would make it easier to put our regional identities on the back stove (not the same as dumping regional identity and everything that goes with it) in favor of being desis, but seems like that's not always the case. I think it's their loss if they do not take advantage of this opportunity (which may not have been available back in India) and learn not only about different cultures and regions from India, but also from different countries by interacting with others.

I notice that people in Desh, just let it slide, and retort with another joke.

I do that always. When ever those northies try to mock us southies, try this
Add 'i' or 'e' before any word starting with 's'
for example...
street - estreet
style - istyle
and do not forget to LOL after using those words

John Hope Franklin, the African American historian, said (in his autobiography) that when he visited India he felt there was a vague, undefined prejudice between north and south indians --- just thought it was interesting getting the viewpoint of someone not desi.

Anyways, Amit, that's my experience with N. Indians - that they also eat with their hands.

PS, yes, I agree. :)

but in my family and among most of my relatives who live in the North, it was fine to eat rice + daal/rajma with fingers.

Traditionally, rice was eaten very rarely in northern India prior to mass agriculture (which was post-1947). Even now, outside urban areas, it's not that common. Especially Punjab (despite some specialties like Rajma Chawal and rice kheer), Haryana, and western U.P. Somewhere in central U.P. there's an invisible line where people start eating more rice (while still eating mainly roti)...in Bihar they eat a lot of rice AND a lot of roti...it's not until you get to Bengal that you find people eating much more rice than roti.

Strangely enough though, Kashmiri cuisine always featured rice as a main staple. I guess they could grow it more easily in their valleys.

I've never encountered serious North-South conflict among ABD's.
Most have a pretty strong sense of a brown identity beyond ethnicity/nationality/religion, the idea that "we are all in this together." This is especially true after 9/11...
Yet such unity is a rather mixed blessing for someone like me. In some respects it relies on the presence of a common enemy. Being half Tamil has never gotten me into trouble. Being half white, and obviously so, however...

PS- About the Jolie comments from earlier... if I was an actor, what roles would I be able to play with a clear conscience? In the unlikely event that I became famous, what type of actor would be entitled to portray me?

Interesting to see this discussion three days after Chak De India! opened.

There's one scene early on where SRK has each of the members of the newly formed Indian women's hockey team, just arrived from all over the country, line up and sound off their names.

The first few start of with "Firstname Lastname, Punjab", "Firstname Lastname, Andra Pradesh", etc, to which SRK says "No. Out."

It's only about 5 or 6 women down the line that someone says "Firstname Lastname, India."

I didn't notice anyone pointing this out, so.

A few Indian actors act in Pakistan too - Nasseruddin Shah is in the recent Pakistani movie that Abhi blogged few days ago, Manisha Koirala is going to direct a movie in Pakistan.

Manisha Koirala is originally Nepali. I don't know what her nationality status is right now.

Aishwarya Rai is born and raised in Bombay hence the comparison is not fair

All sources I've come accross state that she was born in Mangalore. She may have been raised in Bombay though, I don't know.

And though it doesn't diminish from the list of Punjabis, the Arora and Priyanka Chopra sisters are half Malayalee.

Traditionally, rice was eaten very rarely in northern India prior to mass agriculture

Amitabh, that agrees with my experience. We used to have rice 2-4 times a week, not counting kheer. I'd imagine that it is more frequent than that in the South.

I've never encountered serious North-South conflict among ABD's.

I've always observed that south Indian ABDs (who want to be part of the 'desi' crowd that is), face enormous pressure to conform to northern Indian culture and norms (as mutated through the american collegiate experience). That means they have to feign interest in Bollywood, try to pick up some Hindi, enjoy naan and tandoori chicken, dance to bhangra, and keep the more obvious southern Indian aspects of their heritage down (although Bharatnatyam seems to be an exception, it's widely respected by north Indians too, and maybe because there were few kathak teachers available, most girls who learned classical dance learned bharatnatyam). It was kind of sad for me to observe, people forced into these norms just to fit in. Some things like drinking hard and partying hard might have been reinforced byt the mainstream american culture too, but I think a lot of that was also northern values imposed on southerners (not that many didn't WANT to party, but there was peer pressure). Some one should study these Indian cliques in american colleges...there's a lot there to comment on.

Why would he lick his elbow? (I'm clearly not getting it) He sounds awful, though :(

Man, I am glad I didn't grow up with these kinds of Northies. I had no idea that people could be so willingly vicious, and that their friendship/kinship with others wouldn't get them to "come around" and drop their crappy and demeaning stereotypes. milli, I'm especially sorry that that guy was such a jackass.

#140, Oops, that should be "back-burner" nor "back stove." :)

"Firstname Lastname, India."

On the other hand, I have this annoying habit of probing further when someone says he or she is from Russia (or Ukraine or Uzbekhistan). I tend to ask, "Yeah, but are you Ukrainian or Moldovian or Byelorussian?"

I am eager to let them know I appreciate the interesting complexities of their simplified identity.

Hyderbadi: I commented on that Outlook article in this earlier thread regarding Kerala back in July:
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004553.html#comment148399

This is what I found very telling about the article, the subtext is that it is surprising to N. Indians that a short, dark people could create a comparatively more desirable economic/social situation.

The typical North Indian regarded the typical South Indian as short, squat, black, effete—and vegetarian. But now, those once proud people are voting with their feet to move south.........Now, the stereotype of the South Indian among Punjabis and Biharis is that he is intelligent, hardworking, entrepreneurial, and open-minded. And that he can very often be a she. And, most importantly, that if you study well and behave yourself, she or he can give you a job.

It was kind of sad for me to observe, people forced into these norms just to fit in. Some things like drinking hard and partying hard might have been reinforced byt the mainstream american culture too, but I think a lot of that was also northern values imposed on southerners (not that many didn't WANT to party, but there was peer pressure). Some one should study these Indian cliques in american colleges..

That said, I think some of the difference around what is seen as "Indian" in the U.S. derives from different migratory periods/patterns. I also think it's easier to pick up bhangra than BN if you're a layperson. Not that this justifies anything -- it doesn't. It's just weird that there's some kind of choke-hold on what's considered an "authentic, desi" identity, especially since these ideas are usually rooted in this weird Des-West feedback (e.g. Bollywood).

Oh, and someone has done an ethnography of desi cliques in NY/NJ colleges. The only downside is that it's a bit outdated, and a bit regionally-specific.

One thing that I've heard my parents say is that certain Christian groups in Kerala think they are better than others and one of my Christian Malyalee friends said her parents would really have a problem if she married a Hindu and would much rather have her marry a North Indian who was Chrisitan or even a Westerner who was Christian.

That is a matter of religion, though. I am a Malayalee Christian who at times truly despises my religion. But I would never blame my parents for wanting me to marry only within their religion. That is inherent in many religious communities. It may go over somewhat better in Dharmic religious, but even then there would be tension in may families in certain situations.

That being said, yes it is true that some Christian groups in Kerala think they are better than others. My denomination is probably one of the prime examples. And even then, it may not be displayed within the whole group, either. But That is not true with the majority of the Christian groups in Kerala.

As for the topic at hand, I've had Gujartis, Pakistanis and North Indians all say disparaging things about South Indians right in front of my face. One particular person was going on about a bunch of South Indians speaking in their language, and her becoming annoyed. The level of ignorance and the way she said South Indian language was really disheartening. The funny thing is, though she had no problem speaking with her group of friends with Hindi or Gujarati. Why I didn't answer back, I don't know. For some reason, everyone seems to think it is completely O.K. And in a way, it really is my own fault, because many times I'm just too taken back to give a fitting reply. Though sometimes I do. Now that I think about it though, the specific examples I remember were from DBDs rather than ABDs.

Malathi in 116#

Whether or not Northerners are routinely made fun of in S. Indian movies, I cannot tell you,

ha Malathi, let me tell you the ways.. whether its garishly costumed bicycling pathan-pawnbrokers yelling 'adei, nillu, nimbilki panon venu...'(a mgr movie staple, mmkr had a similar scene too iirc), to vikram haranguing the petrified sowkarpet 'seth' father-in-law in guttural pimp-bootlegger-hindi, to the irrepresible T Rajendran serenading the voters of 'Beegar' [i cant find the link, but you can watch him molest english in this one, justforkix],or Vivek taking on computer-ji in the tamil version pork-chop-no-role-left-unspurned-AB as the host of KBC.., or s.ve sekhar with ek gaon me yek kisaan ragu-thatha in transpur....classic! the faeces hurling goes on and goes both ways...and we loves it!!

Another thing...despite stereotypes, urban middle-class India is starting to become remarkably homogenous, culturally speaking. Especially the younger generation. Watching these musical shows like Indian Idol, I'm always struck by how much these kids from far-flung regions of India, still have so much in common with each other, many of the same sets of shared references, shared values, shared behaviors and attitudes...it's like this middle-class pan-Indian identity that leaves these people more similar to each other than to rural people (perhaps of their same caste background) living in villages a few miles from their homes.

"Firstname Lastname, India."

This reminded me of something that Prem Panicker wrote about how John Wright answered phone calls when he was the Indian coach. John Wright would say "John Wright, Indian team coach" or something to that effect, and the point PP was getting at was that John Wright took pride in being an Indian coach, contrasting it with the regional games played by the selectors. FWIW.

And for Kush's long list of Punjabis in the biz, I guess you could add Amitabh Bachchan, maybe with an asterisk, as his mother, Teji, is Punjabi.

This is an outrage! Our refusal to be co-opted is being used to abuse us! Lemurians, MuraliMannered and everyone else-- man your stations, the dread Northies are at it again. Arrrr.

(Seriously, though, that's sad. I've heard the same awesome reasoning applied my way, because I'm xtian, and the person couldn't relate to me, because of that. Ah, I love how people in our community love to broadcast shit...I would have never been the wiser, had the Hindu girl's confidante not run straight to me, apres hearing this juicy, juicy rumor-goodness...)

i know...but in some ways, that makes me relate less to them.

Small nose - cute face

The only trait I really associate with a "South Indian" face is big, round eyes.

Shouldn't it be Chennai-an instead of Madrasi now? I protest!! ;)

We fought over this many times and it's one of the only instances I can recall where a disagreement between us inspired HER to cry. Now I look back and regret that I was such a dick, but hey, I was young and stupid.

I take exception to the idea that hard-core partying is a "northern value."

Camille,
Southies are also guilty of stereotyping Northies as hard partying, heavy drinking generally boisterous types ,no?

Seeing where this debate is going I want to clarify that despite my rants ( calling me "Madarasi" pushes my buttons!) I heart Punjabis - after all I married one !!

To get back on track so far as I understand it : The video in question brings to the forefront deep rooted north -south cultural differences and lack of mutual understanding. Blackface comedy has a long history in subcontinental cinema and may not be considered as horrifying an occurrence as it is here in the US.
Javed Jaffery is a talented guy
( Okay ,okay- the last one is my personal opinion)

amit, sorry - didn't see your ';)'. but still - it's funny when people not from madras correct me in my usage of madras - everybody just thinks it's because i'm an ABD, which is even more irritating...:)

in that vein, camille, i'm not sure if it would have made that much of a difference if the desi community was mixed to the extent that these differences would necessarily need to be overlooked to form a community - some people - north or south - will always continue to be narrow in their definitions of what 'desi' is. s

I didn't see the movie, so it didn't even occur to me that they'd do more than slap some bronzer on her, since Marianne is mixed:

Of Dutch-Jewish, Afro-Latino-Cuban and Chinese Cuban ancestry and raised in Paris [wiki]

It's an interesting point. Was Jolie in "brownface"? And where do we draw the line for what's considered inappropriate, since acting is supposed to be about transformation etc?

Anna, this is a very good question to ask, and a fully valid point to me. I don't see Jolie as having been in blackface in Mighty Heart. I saw the movie - worth seeing, even if only for Angelina Jolie's fantastic performance. I would, however, go along with most of the criticism that Asra Nomani has leveled at the film, (see her WaPo op-ed and C-Span interview linked on ultrabrown in particular). And calling the make-up and hair-frizzy-making stuff 'blackface' - distorts not only the literal but also the figurative meaning of the term beyond recognition.

To a naive person, i.e., myself, she appears in the movie as someone of mixed French-Moroccan descent. This was done so realistically in the movie that I (who had never seen Jolie in any other movie, AFAIR) thought Jolie actually was French-Moroccan. She is very lightly made-up in the movie, and her hair is frizzed-up, but that's all.

The thing about the claim that there must be other actresses who had the natural skin color to do the role - is - can they also act as well as Jolie? But this also raises the related question - did Jolie overact, or mis-act in that role? Could a person who has grown up with a knowledge of white skin privilege really know how a darker-skinned person would actually act in that situation in real life? Without any spoilers, suffice it to say that there are times in the movie when it does feel as if she were acting the way a white person, used to the privilege, would have acted.

Even if the answer is - yes, she acts like a white person, but in brownish make-up - I would ask what was the directorial thrust - did the director make her act more 'white' to be able to sell the movie to more people in the US, for example? Then maybe she was being faithful to her directorial meta-instructions in acting that way. She still does it so well, that it simply does not make sense to claim that the role should have been done by a naturally darker person, or that she is in 'blackface'.

amit, are you not from madras? i think it's only non-TN people who conform to the strictly chennai rule (even my hindi teacher corrected me!). this is like the mumbai vs bombay debate - natives still use the older version very frequently, perhaps more so than the 'new' (though not really new in TN) official name.

AK, I'm not. I thought my ";)" indicated that I was jesting.
I'm not aware if the name-change is still an (big) issue with the native-dwellers, so if you are able to shed more light, please do. In general, I do tend to notice it in US newspapers etc. when they use the older names, and sometimes give them feedback regarding the new names. But, at a personal level, it doesn't affect/bother me what name is used. Basically, I'll defer to the natives as to whatever name they prefer.

I'm not aware if the name-change is still an (big) issue with the native-dwellers, so if you are able to shed more light, please do

well, chennai has always been used in literary tamil (aka senthamizh). so when you hear speeches (e.g. by politicians), read poetry/literature, hear radio/television newscasts, chennai always has and is used. madras, obviously, was the name given by the british. but even today, both forms persist. chennai is used more frequently now, since the name change, but the use of madras has not diminished. and like the bombay vs mumbai debate, the madras vs chennai has that political tone of tamilization - e.g. the tamil 'activists' will use it far more than those who are more westernized or 'modern'. i guess, these days, chennai is always safe/uncontroversial, and madras is only not safe when you're speaking to a pro-tamil tamil politician (and, apparently, to some non-tamilians).

The video in question brings to the forefront deep rooted north -south cultural differences and lack of mutual understanding.

The thread also brings into focus certain facets of the South-North issue as it plays out among ABDs, that I (as a DBD having lived both in the South and the North) simply did not face, to anything like the same extent. The particular socio-economic-cultural environment I was privileged to have, plus the fact that in both places, I always had friends belonging to both regions, plus the fact that members of my own family, beginning with my parents' generation, have married into both North and South Indian communities, has largely protected me.

This is a clear case of a DBD learning things from ABDs about what are typically DBD issues, as they refract through an ABD lens.

I think if South India ever seceded from the North(it will never happen), the North is fucked. The South doesn't really need much of a defense budget and they generate high revenues.

i have always grown up with the sense that north indians think south indians are uncultured savages.

milli, where about the US have you grown up? While I definitely recognize this sentiment, what's been stronger for me is the sense that north indians feel that south indians just study too much & focus too much on rituals/religion in general.

I agree with HMF partially, people from the South being smarter and more studious than the people from North is what I heard the most.

This has been a very good thread, I'm learning a lot all round. And Amitabh, particularly liked your comment at #149.

milli:
i have always grown up with the sense that north indians think south indians are uncultured savages.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is sad, and something it's good to raise awareness of--my parents have their faults, but this is not one of them, though as others have pointed out, it may be a Delhi thing to be more open on this score....

louiecypher And I also take issue with people who pretend there are no differences in the genetic history of desis from different caste/linguistic background, this has been proven by science. We are all a mix, with the composition varying by locale.

I agree with the broad tenor of your commen. But just on the skin color issue - there really are a lot of dark-skinned people in the North, and many more than a few light skinned people in the South. Heck, even some Armenians and Iranians - normally taken as the genetic stock that brought lighter skin to North India - are as dark as the darkest people I can imagine, and some Kannadigas and Tamilians I have known actually have blue eyes and blondish hair. It does nobody any favors to impose a greater degree of artificial binary-ness on the skin color issue than is actually present on the ground. Some of this arises due to genetic injections from outside - and this is both in the South and in the North - not just in the North. But, as razib has also pointed out in other threads, there is also a lot of native genetic variation that naturally arises in a population that's large, as India's always has been. I rather suspect that as media representations become more, well, representative, you will see this natural diversity show up, and in course of time, people will see that both North and South Indians are both fair and dark skinned.

No one is wailing dude, I am just stating a fact that where S. Indians are referenced by N. Indians it is almost always as a buffoon.

i have always grown up with the sense that north indians think south indians are uncultured savages.

I agree with HMF partially, people from the South being smarter and more studious than the people from North is what I heard the most.

If we are talking abt stereotyping, I might as well throw the sikhs in the gauntlet!

They are almost always portrayed as stupid/dumb/silly/joker..haha
I don't know how many times I have heard the "sardar ke barah baj gaye" joke.. damn..lol.

chachaji, your experience is somewhat along the same lines as mine. I grew up in Rajasthan, but my parents had some South Indian (and Bengali) family friends - my mom learned to make idli-sambhar (another favorite), uthapam, vada and dosa (yes, I know there's more to SI cuisine than these four) from one of them. We used to have a mini regional film-festival once a year that showed Bengali, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Bhojpuri, Punjabi, Malayalam movies - not always with sub-titles, but that didn't stop me from watching them. We used to have Hindi movies pretty much every weekend. It also had to do with the demographics of the employees of the public-sector company where my dad worked - mostly North-Indians but still a good number of people from all over the country. In school, some of the teachers were Malayalee, and some students did make fun of their accent, and I remember one particular incident where a student asked the teacher how to spell "maximum" repeatedly, and when the teacher caught on as to what was happening, the kid got the thrashing of his life. In the 80's, cousin of mine married (love marriage, no less) a Kannada girl from B'lore where they now live. Among my immediate relatives, it was really rare for a woman to work, as she did.

In college, I had some South Indians in my class, and I became fast friends (and still am) with a Kannada guy from B'lore, who is now married to a North-Indian girl. I was introduced to Classical music in college and loved it. I've had a chance to watch Bharatnatyam and other South Indian art forms in the US and New Delhi, and I enjoy them as much as I enjoy Bhangra or Pt. Chaurasia. No time for hate when there's so much to like. :)

I feel privileged, but think such kind of exposure when growing up helps. Also, if people experience such prejudice next time, I'd suggest that you at least try to challenge the display of ignorance in a non-threatening manner. Something along the lines of "Maybe you didn't realize this, but your remark/action was ...." That'll give the person something to think about. As Harry Tuttle said, "We're all in this together."

Also forgot to add that as a teenager, my parents (along with some relatives) went on a south-indian tour that involved a lot of time spent in trains :) and we also saw Tirupati, Meenakshi temple, Rameshwaram temple etc. with pit-stops in all major big cities. I only wish I'd also seen Kerala.

Amit, glad to hear of your positive experiences. Also, glad you mentioned music, because that is another axis, in addition to language and food, where the schism appears quite deep. People who appreciate or sing or perform the one style simply cannot seem to understand those who do the other. The Carnatic vs Hindustani classical music thing appears like something that just cannot be bridged without an inevitably diluting compromise that is a sell-out to both sides. A lot of prejudiced comment goes back and forth around that issue on both sides, contributing to the overall tension.

Still, there are many Hindustani musicians who come from areas traditionally understood to be in South India, and many South Indian (and North Indian) musicians are experimenting with styles that fuse the two traditions, and there are quite a few of them also in the diaspora. Speaking of which, where's Sriram?

Can any Pakistani commenters/lurkers here enlighten us on the relationship between the Hyderabadis and the North Indians in Pakistan?

I feel for people of South India/any other regions of India who feel stereotyped in Bollywood/movies. But at least you are fortunate that Bollywood filmmakers at least acknowledge the Tamilians/Sikhs/any others, even if it is in a negative way. Unfortunately I come from a state which is not even acknowledged in the movies/or in any other popular culture.
If I mention my state to ABD/DBD, I get a blank look.
I am neither a North Indian nor a South Indian, as I have have few things in common with either groups

If I mention my state to ABD/DBD, I get a blank look.

What is your state?

I am neither a North Indian nor a South Indian, as I have have few things in common with either groups

Would that be a north-eastern state? :)

Discrimination by North Indians (by the north I mean anyone outside of the four Southern States / North East) against the South Indians is widespread. I learnt Hindi in my early 20's as I was practically forced to. Try working in Bihar without being able to speak a word of Hindi.
The official language of the company was Hindi and meetings were always conducted in Hindi. This despite the organization being a national one and me being recruited from the south. While working in the North, I faced great ridicule for being a "Madarasi". Even my payslip was in Hindi and I had to seek the help of other hindi speaking colleagues . They would help but only after ridiculing for not knowing Hindi and for not knowing the 'national' language. Sometimes I would retort that Hindi was normally spoken by the uncultured brutes (cheap shot)
Later worked in other parts of North India and faced similar discrimination. Is this racism - probably because the North has greater political power due to its larger population. Hindi is not my mother tongue and I would be so much happier if South India seceded from the North. Dont really need a bunch of Laloos determining by fate. Several years later, when I was in a position of power and was hiring I put in an informal condition that a person had to speak one of the South Indian languages to be promoted to a managerial position. Revenge - nerd style ;)
I hate Hindi and have been an ardent supporter of the anti-hindi brigade. This is not to say that I dont have North Indian friends or have never dated Northie women. I am pretty fluent in Hindi but when someone speaks to me in Hindi I speak back in Tamil / Malayalam / Kannada - depending my mood. That gets them to speak in English.
No discrimination that I have faced in the Western World (including Australia) even compares to the disdain and contempt that was received while working in the North of India.

Rant over :)

Totally understand and endorse the behaviour of Anna's mom - it is a normal reaction :)

ak@92:

one of my own friends even told me that the reason she's closer to me than one of our malayali-american friends is because i can speak and understand hindi - i.e. our other friend's south-indian-ness (or failure to take on some north-indian-ness) prevented a certain closeness.

HMF@95:

I met this chick from Delhi, I told her I never learned Hindi,

she says, "You don't speak Hindi" in a shocking tone.

I respond, "Nope... but I do breathe oxygen, believe it or not."

lifelong@126:

From the way I ate rice, to my "accent" (mid-atlantic?), to my trying to speak to them in Hindi/Punjabi. At least I tried. In many years of marriage, my ex never learned how to say anything in my native language.

milli@135:

i also find it extremely annoying when people assume i speak hindi. i usually have to repeat "no, i really don't speak hindi" 5 or 6 times before strangers stop trying to converse with me in hindi and reply in horror, "so. you. don't. speak. HINDI???" that is usually quickly followed up with, "tah-meel? what is that?" i have met so many older north indians in the states who seemingly have never heard of tamil, let alone even know where madras is.

Amitabh@149:

I've always observed that south Indian ABDs (who want to be part of the 'desi' crowd that is), face enormous pressure to conform to northern Indian culture and norms (as mutated through the american collegiate experience). That means they have to feign interest in Bollywood, try to pick up some Hindi, enjoy naan and tandoori chicken, dance to bhangra, and keep the more obvious southern Indian aspects of their heritage down

While I'm late to the party, here is my contribution to this theme:

Once in my youth (early 2000s) I was on a flight from Chennai to Chicago. Unfortunately this was Air India (my fault really), and to add to the overall bad service, an inveterate conversationalist got on at Bombay to become my co-passenger. To make matters worse, he was a Hindi-only conversationalist. While I understand the language as much as can be expected from being taught it for 10 years as a second language in school, I detest some random stranger greeting me in a stream of Hindi without the basic courtesy to determine whether I speak it or not. While I wear English like my underpants (good for any outfit and any occasion) and I wear Tamil like a pair of rubber flip-flops (appropriate to go buy groceries, not good enough for a book-reading), I tend to wear Hindi like a virgin wearing a condom (having read the instructions from Wikipedia but without an intuitive feel for how it's supposed to fit). To boost the annoyance factor, I was severely jet-lagged and just wanted to sleep on the flight. Anyway I was polite enough to answer his first few queries ("Kahaan rehte hain aap?", "Aap karte kya hain?") to the point, in one word, in English. The joker refused to take the hint, and launched into a solo toccata on the themes of what some politician (whom I've never heard of) should have done, what was wrong with the Indian cricket team, how Tendulkar should have played, the moral standards of India compared to the rest of the world, and (for all I know) how JFK was shot by aliens from invisible flying saucers, all this enriched by my valuable contributions of "uh", "guh" and "guhuh". Finally, from an overdose of fatigue, pain and having watched Pulp Fiction too many times, I turned to him and enquired gently and pleasantly enough, "English, motherfucker, do you speak it?".

Never have I had a more restful eight hours of sleep on a plane.

i've uploaded a skin color map with india emphasized (i cut out the rest of the world). there's a real difference, but obviously there's overlap. i've met few punjabis who are as dark as the darkest tamils or bengalis, but it seems that a large number of punjabis are the same color as the typical bengali or tamil. bobby jindal is from a punjabi background, but he seems a normal color for a brown person.

second, i've watched only a few bollywood movies, but i recall getting uncomfortable when the super-dark buffoon showed up. i recall he'd go bug-eyed and smile with his bright white teeth against his dark skin. it reminded me of something out of a minstrel show.

third, of course northerners (punjabis especially) feel superior to dark-skinned south indians and bengalis. why shouldn't they when the value system of beauty is the way it is? (there are south indians on this forum who have let drop they don't have dark skin and "look northern," so we know how it all stands) i've seen too many punjabis sneer when they talk about south indians, or even bengalis (since i'm bengali this is a 'to-my-face' thing). it's normal that people want to feel superior to others. that being said, it is also graceless and classless to signal in such a brazen and gauche manner, and reflects on what kind of moral fiber or upbringing you've had. but i doubt south indians are any better essentially. i've seen telugus disparage tamils as "true dravidians" (to an audience of bengalis and oriyans). i've heard bengalis assume that tamils were particularly dark-skinned, as if bengalis aren't nearly as dark (of course the bengalis know very well that people to their north and west refer to them as black). to be black is to be the lowest of the low. at least south indians can be glad they're not "negroes" (ethiopians distinguish themselves from the lowland black populations because of their "red" skin and "finer" features).

fourth, one assumes this denigration of south indians will happen more and more as the south supersedes the cow belt socially and economically (punjab & haryana, gujarat and maharashtra are all very advanced of course, so the generalization needs to be tempered). people need to make themselves feel superior somehow, and i think both north and south indians agree that the physical type of the northwest is the most beauteous to behold (well, at least after a back shaving!). this doesn't mean it is objectively true, i'm just saying that tacitly even those who are offended by it tend to agree with it. a dark-skinned south indian friend of very progressive anti-castist mentality once explained away the light-skinned preponderance in bollywood by asserting that "well, you only have good-looking people in your films in america, so of course we'll have light-skinned women in our films."

fifth, the contempt that a north indian showed toward a south indian re: food in terms of restaurant choice in reference to a bunch of white people is a pretty explicit demonstration of one major dynamic among ABDs: white people are the standard. north indians look "whiter" and so they can trade in on that supposed affinity (i.e., speaking an indo-aryan language, etc.). whites of course don't distinguish too much between north and south indians, let alone arabs and brown people, so of course this has to be a pro-active differentiation on the part of the north indian ("look, i'm like you, this nose his thicker, his skin darker, my skin might be the color of shit, but it is a light diarrhea color, not thick dark healthy shit color").

of course, there is the reality that there are differences between populations. i just think it is a somewhat true that some north indians need to dial it back a bit in terms of emphasizing those differences to make southies seem like greasy black monkeys (when a lot of north indians are greasy black monkeys too if you want to use the metrics accurately), or, to assume that south indians should be totally fluent in north indian culture (or that north indian culture is the universal standard, e.g., all brownz must know hindi). people can be self-satisified in their own superiority without having to broadcast it all the time, just makes you look primitive and insecure.

p.s. when i go to a big city i get spoken too in urdu or hindi now and then. mostly people are being friendly, but it isn't always where you'd expect. one time at a fast food joint a young girl (mebee 17?) tried to speak to me in hindi. i said i knew bengali only, and she laughed and said, "oh, ok," with a perfect american accent.

p.p.s. when is said i doubt south indians aren't any better, here is an example that is more clear about the dynamics at work. i was reading about dalit social movements, and it was noted that north indian dalits from UP were not totally comfortable being classified together with south indian dalits. you see, south indian dalits are the lowest of the low in the hierarchy. north indian dalits might be untouchables, but at least they are indo-aryan untouchables! similarly, ambedkar was asked once if his people (mahars i believe) in maharashtra were the aboriginals who were there before the indo-aryans showed up. his response was "that is a hypothesis." he didn't dismiss, but it seems that he didn't want to accept it either when anthropologically that seems to obviously be the most likely case (he had an econ ph.d., i think he could think through the social history OK).

""English, motherfucker, do you speak it?"."

Wher's the R-man when you need him

Never have I had a more restful eight hours of sleep on a plane.

Sounds like a messed up flight experience, I'da rather been on this plane

On how Bollywood represents Southies and how Northies ridicule Southies and how skin color plays into the conditioned mate choice of the North Indian female - I cannot resist linking in the song 'Ek Chatur Naar' from Padosan. The South Indian is played by Mehmood, who also directs the movie, and Kishore Kumar provides the on-screen playback. Both the Mehmood character and the guy in the cap who is singing (a Northie) are interested in the woman. The song is also an example of a cacophonic Carnatic-Hindustani medley, and a cinematographical achievement as well as containing many highly non-PC insults directed at the South Indian (including 'go wash your face'). Some context is provided by the person who posted the video, more can be gotten by googling. I am not aware of any other movie or song which so starkly placed the North-South issue in Indian society as this one tried to do, and with a combination of sarcasm, satire and plain old humor. (If you're wondering, in the end, the Northie gets the girl.) :)

While I wear English like my underpants (good for any outfit and any occasion) and I wear Tamil like a pair of rubber flip-flops (appropriate to go buy groceries, not good enough for a book-reading), I tend to wear Hindi like a virgin wearing a condom (having read the instructions from Wikipedia but without an intuitive feel for how it's supposed to fit).

as to the co-passenger - this is why half the time i hate knowing hindi - because knowing it, my initial instinct is to reply in hindi. but sometimes i pretend. what i hate is the assumption, really - if somebody deigns to ask me whether or not i actually speak hindi, rather than presume i know it, i am far less irritated.

What is your state?

South Dakota

pingpong, that was very sexy ;) but as to your english - what if one goes commando?

Commando? Insinuating innuendo? Insinuendo!

as to the co-passenger - this is why half the time i hate knowing hindi - because knowing it, my initial instinct is to reply in hindi. but sometimes i pretend. what i hate is the assumption, really - if somebody deigns to ask me whether or not i actually speak hindi, rather than presume i know it, i am far less irritated.

Very true. A Belgian friend of mine (Flemish) said that a similar situation exists in Belgium, with many tourists assuming that everyone speaks French. Apparently many Flemish residents also speak French in addition to Dutch, but hate to be confused with the French-speaking Walloons. A good habit for tourists who speak French but not Dutch is to ask whether the person minds speaking in French before launching into a monologue.

Largely the same thing seems to exist through a large part of continental Europe (especially rural areas off the tourist map) regarding English - even if you speak the local language in a broken way, a French farmer is likely to provide better help than if you speak directly in English. Thus I live and learn.

I wonder if that guideline applies to Samuel L. Jackson though. He might still order "a Big Mac" instead of "le Big Mac".

Very true. A Belgian friend of mine (Flemish) said that a similar situation exists in Belgium, with many tourists assuming that everyone speaks French. Apparently many Flemish residents also speak French in addition to Dutch, but hate to be confused with the French-speaking Walloons.

interesting parallel with brownz: in belgium the flemmish areas were marginalized and backward, the french areas were the dominant economic and cultural powerhouses until the post-world war II era. now that there is turnabout there's a lot of problems because the french speakers still maintain a self-perception that they're the identity that the flemmings have to assimilate too (there are many francophone families in brussels who are of flemmish origin, a residue of this history of dominance of the french-speaking element). the flemmings in contrast resent the economic parasitism of the french areas now that they are down and out (mining and what not was big there), and of course they have produced the most prominent far-right parties in europe of late....

(some of the anti-flemmish prejudice in terms of language was pretty extreme considering that they're around 1/2 of the population. i believe that a while back it was sometimes mandatory that courts in flemmish speaking areas use french)

my parents used to have 3 parties a year: one for the south indians, one for the north, and one for the americans

why shouldn't they when the value system of beauty is the way it is? (there are south indians on this forum who have let drop they don't have dark skin and "look northern," so we know how it all stands)

Well said.. it's not really a north-south problem. Even in Tamil movies, dark skin is ridiculed as ugly.. I think there is a problem with the "value system" that treats "dark skin" as ugly and "white skin" as beautiful. You could see the worst attacks on dark skin and stereotypes in "Goundamani Senthil comedies (famous tamil comedy duo)". It is digusting to see the "blatant white skin craze" portrayed in the recent super hit "Sivaji"..

Regarding the portrayal of south indians in Hindi movies, dingchak said correctly in #156,

the faeces hurling goes on and goes both ways...and we loves it

No one (except in certain pockets of cities) watches Hindi movies in Tamilnadu and not many are worried about the portrayal. It would probably hurt for those settled outside but not a big deal for locals. Ofcourse we do ridicule north indians in Tamil movies.. .. Everyone who speaks Hindi at home is called a "settu" and comes in for good treatment..

Looks like almost all the experiences narrated are from the south Indians who suffered in the North. In my college there was a bunch of North Indians and if you ask them they'd tell the other side of the story..

my parents used to have 3 parties a year: one for the south indians, one for the north, and one for the americans

I think I'm missing context: were these three parties all to celebrate the same occasion or were they completely different events?

I think I'm missing context: were these three parties all to celebrate the same occasion or were they completely different events?

they were all for my bris. man, was i sore.

seriously pingpong, they were completely different events.

hm. so you're a surgically created manjuette?

they were all for my bris. man, was i sore.

Next Hugh Grant movie: "Three Parties and a Circumcision".

I think I managed to avoid any feelings of outrage over the treatment of south indians in the north indian imagination by growing up in Hyderabad, a city of south indians who speak Hindi. I speak much better Hindi than Telugu (but am South Indian) and in all the time I lived there, I only encountered one person who could not speak Hindi. But, since we all speak "bad" Hindi and make fun of ourselves, no one else can make fun of you and make you feel bad. Hyderabadis are actually quite proud of their bastardized Hindi/Urdu. Also, Hyderabadis are often transplants from other parts of the country, north or south, who come to think of themselves as mostly Hyderabadi and thereby blurring the lines and heirarchies. Certainly Hyderabad has seen its share of communal violence, but frequently being Hyderabadi trumps any other regional or religious affiliations people might have.

I agree the blackface is offensive, but I stopped watching and just listened to them talk, and it was actually quite comforting and reminded me of home.

desishiksa, your commentary has been sorely missed on this thread. good to see you back.

can you set Manju straight - he's implying that he had three bris in #197 - being sore and all - please confirm that that is medically impossible as well as religio-culturally incorrect. Of course, he says three parties, but still. :)

hm. so you're a surgically created manjuette?

Well, i gave my mohel a lot of material to work with. don't believe all the stereotypes about southies...or jews.

Chachaji --thank you :) I have been lurking occasionally, not totally gone.

Well, i gave my mohel a lot of material to work with. don't believe all the stereotypes about southies...or jews.

Reminds me of the joke about how they make your foreskin into a wallet after the bris, which is nice, because if you rub it, it turns into a suitcase.

please confirm that that is medically impossible as well as religio-culturally incorrect.

Perhaps if Manju is hung like a sharpei it would require several procedures to get the job done...

First of all, as a fellow hydro ABD, I can attest to the spot-on accuracy of the impressions. In fact their Urdu skills brought chilling memories of me sitting in my house and hearing uncles arguing over pointless things. The black-face was tasteless, but honestly I guess it didn't offend me as much. As first generation hyderabadi urdu speaker in the states, I'm used to the occasional ridicule that befalls us from pakistani urdu speakers (basically my friends in college). In fact, when I was taking Urdu classes at college, I remember my poor professor having a heart attack when she realized that I didn't know that in proper urdu there is no such thing as Mere-ko. Anyway, I have a pakistani connection as well. Most of my mother's family moved from hyderabad to pakistan after partition. They still kept their hydro roots in their new home. In fact there is a hyderabadi enclave in karachi that is known as "hyderabad colony." Although my younger cousins have become more "pakistani" than their migrating parents, they still cling on to a lot of tradition. Indeed, pakistani's hold a few negative stereotypes about hyderabadi muhajirs, ie our colloquial urdu. But there tend to be plenty of positive stereotypes as well. From our kick ass biryani, kaatti daal, extravagant gold jewelry, and the infamous "juuk ke salaam." By the way, another plus of being hyderabadi is the automatic assumption from my pakistani friends that i'm successful. Hyderabadi= doctor. In fact when I tell a pakistani that i'm hyderabadi, they ask, whether or not I'm a doctor. I answer, no my friend, not yet, I'm just in medical school. :)

You know what South Indians don't give a shit, remember TN is the only state where milestones (real white stones on the highway) are marked sans devanagiri in Tamil/English. There is a clear craving to be "hindish/bollywoodish/n.Indianish", consider peopl;e from Orissa, KA who's film industry is maligned or non-existent and how they perpetuate a need to be "asssimilated" by speaking/watching hindi

I'm picking up on a level of pain and marginalisation here on the part of some South Indians, that I never knew (the extent) of. If people have made their own brothers and sisters feel this way, that is really sad. I do remember once being in Bangalore, on a tour bus, and this one idiot kept saying 'PLAY HINDI SONGS!!!' Other than a few of us, everyone on that bus was South Indian. The bus driver relented and put in Hindi songs the whole way...I didn't say anything, and subjectively I guess I enjoyed the Hindi songs more than the Kannada songs that were on before, but I also felt there was something really wrong with that whole scene, and I felt kind of bad about it.

That being said, if I may humbly offer a few observations to our South Indian friends...things about your cultures (in general) that I find hard to relate to (these are just comments, obviously your cultures do not exist to please me)...basically the conservatism, the lack of a "fun" or enjoy-life mentality...even at weddings, there's no alcohol, no meat, little music (and whatever there is is classical). And I know I'm going to get skewered here...please don't kill me...I find the hospitality in south Indian homes is (in general) sometimes less than in the north. A lot of silences, formality, a look of relief that you're not staying for dinner...I'm not trying to make enemies here...can we discuss this openly and without hostility? I realise these are crude stereotypes and there are a lot of exceptions...on all sides. I also realise that these observations are limited to upper-caste Telugus and (Indian)Tamils I've interacted with in the USA, and not people in India. I'm well aware that working-class and rural Tamil culture knows how to get its party on.

Man, I hope I don't regret posting this...

Very interesting conversation, just thought I would chip in with my 2 cents here. As a Telugu DBD who used to hang out with a lot of Maharashtrians (west Indians? :) ) and Gujaratis ( west/north?), I must say that we got along pretty fine. It may have helped that I know Hindi, but I have never faced any discrimination/negative comments of the sort mentioned here. Of course, this is my personal experience. I think people in India are slowly getting rid of these stereotypes, since the knowledge economy is putting lots of northies in South India, and lots of southies in North India, etc. I think that as time goes by, these stereotypes should disappear, as they are mostly based on ignorance (I hope).

On a side note, as a guy who did my undergraduate degree in Chennai, I did hear from my friends that there was a fair bit of antagonism between the Telugu and Tamil students in certain colleges. I wonder what to make of that! :o

The other thing I liked about the impressions was the way he used his hands while talking. Not a Hyderabadi thing per se but very typically south indian gestures. Also like the word "kathe", there is no equivalent in english or proper hindi/urdu that I know of but it's very useful to indicated you are repeating something someone else said. Like air quotes, but less annoying.

My mom always tells this story about how my dad used to say "nakko" for "no" in Delhi and get blank stares and she would get all embarrassed because she had no idea what he was saying either.

I find the hospitality in south Indian homes is (in general) sometimes less than in the north.

but do you think it is because you are not "of their culture"? i.e., you don't think that a southie would feel the same in a northern home? in any case, the stuff you are talking about is pretty innocuous. seem to be different social scenes in terms of what is, or isn't, acceptable. being shit-faced-drunk is OK in scandinavia, but unseemly in italy. again, to reiterate:

1) i think there is a perception by north indians that they are better looking than south indians. i think a lot of south indians agree. whether it is objectively true or not (using the common indian metrics i think it is obviously true in light of the values) it is kind of an uncomfortable reality when a whole group of people, on average, are considered uglier than another group of people (and the "good looking" people in the ugly group look a lot like the people in the "good looking" group).

2) there is also the cultural hegemony at work in terms of the assumption that they understand you, but you don't need to understand them, cuz they're weird. as a bengali my parents experienced in their own lives during with non-bengalis during a united pakistan. my father studied in west pakistan and everyone assumed that bengal was the land of little black hindu monkeys. west pakistanis were overlords over bengalis, so of course the perception needs to be filtered through that light.

#208 Amitabh, actually I would have to agree on certain points you mention. Yes,there is a clear divide when it comes to the weddings atleast in the 'lack of fun' aspect. So much so that although I'm from Andhra, I would love to have a Punjabi wedding! ;) And you're spot on about the conservatism, lack of alcohol etc. I would say this is more of a cultural thing, since most people in my family too don't drink, don't eat meat etc. But these things are changing as well. And as for the hospitality thingie, I have no idea what to say. I guess they just didn't warm to you perhaps because you may have lacked any common frames of reference.

Amongst Hindus, the South is commonly thought to be the land of the great temples and the schools of philsophy. There are no comparable architectural achievements or body of work in the North, so it will always take the laurel for "authenticiy" - the idea being that the cultural practices of the North are "aadha-Musalmaan." And that too is an epithet used by many Southerners to deride North Indians Hindus.

Amitabh:

i'm from the south and i would skewer you if it weren't for the fact that everything you said was a dead on accurate description of my experience growing up, especially the silence and formality. i didn't even have any bollywood. i always found my north indian friends parent's house much more fun and the food was much more palpable to my tastes. south indian food left me screaming for a cheeseburger.

but all's well that ends well. i eventually americanized my parents by turning them on to sushi snd bordeaux, so now the house is even funner than the northies, who've stuck to chicken tikka masala and johnny walker black. at least they moved on from red.

Oh, Amitabh, I have to address all those comments. But first let me say that I believe you are not trying to offend anyone but...

Yes, there's no meat or alcohol at many South Indian weddings, but there is often one or both at the reception, and regardless, we still have a good time without those. It's hard to compete with a Punjabi wedding, but I think south indian weddings can be fun, just in a different way. No dancing (sometimes) or drinking (sometimes) but lots of socializing with long lost relatives, dressing up in beautiful silks and jewelry and eating lots of tasty food.

I totally disagree with the hospitality thing. I have found overwhelming hospitality from desis of all backgrounds, and an expectation of you returning that hospitality. Perhaps you were feeling awkward in some South Indian homes for another reason and that may have skewed your impressions? Perhaps it was your own perception that they were conservative, or that you were somehow an outsider to their culture?

and the "good looking" people in the ugly group look a lot like the people in the "good looking" group

I don't know, judging from the South Indian cinema that I've seen, South Indians have their own aesthetic preferences that are distinct from both North Indian and Western standards of beauty. I've met a fair number of South Indian men who are reasonable facsimiles of that Sendhil dude from Heroes, yet South Indian movies are largely populated by chubby guys with big moustaches.

i'm curious to know how much people's experiences or perceptions of desis outside of their linguistic/caste-based communities are affected by geography (outside of desh). i politely decline to specifically name the place where i grew up for purposes of semi-anonymity, but it was a US metro area where there are puh-lenty of south asians. when i was very young, it seemed that we had more family friends of varied south asian or even middle eastern extraction; for example, my mom befriended the wives of my father's ismaili, sikh, iraqi, and pakistani coworkers. we would go to dinner parties at their houses, and they visited our house plenty of times. i considered their children some of my "home" friends. it wasn't until there seemed to be more of a critical mass of tambrahms (iyengar, natch) that get-togethers with the "other" friends became less and less frequent -- and that i started becoming much more aware of cultural differences that inform some of the stereotypes that have been brought up on this thread. anyway, i have a friend who grew up in the sticks, canada and he cannot relate at all to the north/south/hindu/muslim/iyer/iyengar/punjabi/gujrati/light/dark etc. bullshit that goes on in the region where my parents still live. all the indian families where he lives are friends, subscribing to that "pan-brown" identity that was described upstream ... er ... upthread, whoops, nerd alert. i think i stopped feeling like a part of that pan-brownness, thanks to the rudeness i experienced from some class a jackasses ... and even now, though i have all sorts of south asian friends, i realize that my defenses stay up much longer around north indians. (i've expressed this to my parents, who think i'm crazy and that all indians are not to be trusted, especially our own family "friends." so classic.)

south indian food left me screaming for a cheeseburger.

I am adding my two cents as someone who did watch a lot of bollywood growing up, the constant caricatures of South Indians as "elbow licking, sambar stained Madrasis" were aplenty. Even on regular Doordarshan television there were advertisements featuring the "buck toothed buffoon" were fairly regular. Even though I am half Malayalee, my mom, my brother and I were always Madrasis to everyone up north.

My mother was also a Malayalee Christian in Nagpur, moved there to do her masters from small village in Kerala (shout out to Anna's mom) and she and my father (who is a Bengali [North Indian ] Hindu), both agree that people from the South were not treated well at the time. In fact my mother's S. Indian-ness and her Christian-ness got my parents kicked out of my grandparents home, also my grand-mom used to perform some purification ritual after my mother would touch her refrigerator or kitchen utensils.
I faced similar discrimination growing up in Nagpur because I was a "mixed" or "hybrid" and I wasn't purely a north indian or hindu so much so that I got beat up on first day of classes by other girls in 5th grade, when we moved to Nagpur. Since I didn't lay claim to either of my parents' religion, and my "ethnic/state" identity was suspect, the boys in fifth grade would chant "shiva shiva" to also purify their desks if I accidently touched it or leaned on it.
When I went to Chennai for my undergrad, I had hoped for more acceptance and sadly that was lacking even there. I was now the Northerner who didn't speak fluent malayalam or tamil and wasn't familiar with the network of mallu cousins. My entire first year in college dorms was traumatic because of the lack of acceptance I faced among my peers and seniors. I was also looked down for knowing about Bollywood movies, even if I knew just as much or more about Hollywood and Malyalam movies.

Of course after 7 years in the U.S. my hindi and malayalam have the same level of fluency. But the questioning of my identity by Indian students and random people I smile at in grocery stores continues, along with the general disinterest in me after I explain I am half and half compared to my tam-bram or bengali friends for whom the conversations continue .
There are lecherous uncles and mean aunties even here in the states who still buy into the stereotype that Christian girls are sluts and I must be so because of my mothers religion.

Of course there are also people who believe that since I am a half bengali, I am argumentative and pretentious - combine that with a PhD and the other half of the population who buys into the above hackneyed ideas, I am the poster of un-marriageability (not that I am complaining, but my poor mom's dreams!!)

So what about people who are half and half and have lived in both regions for approximately the same amount of years? Why do you Southerners and Northerners forsake poor moi? Where do I belong?

Definitely never felt like the cultural or even religious differences were a big deal in Hyderabad, then was rudely surprised on moving to the US. My parents' friends were from a variety of cultural/religious backgrounds as were my school friends. Hard to avoid that in Hyderabad. The more I read the comments on this thread the luckier I feel to have grown up there, riots, curfews and all. Also since my own background is mixed it's difficult to feel completely a part of or completely alien to anyone else's culture.

but all's well that ends well. i eventually americanized my parents by turning them on to sushi snd bordeaux, so now the house is even funner than the northies, who've stuck to chicken tikka masala and johnny walker black. at least they moved on from red.

Hmmm so the South Indians became white to trump the Punjabis. To me that would be a pyrhhic victory, but if your goal is to decenter "hegemonic" Punjabis its probably a brilliant stroke, assume the "higher" cultural vantagepoint to mock the bumptious "drinking and dancing" natives - and perhaps something to it too, e.g. the seemingly higher outrmarriage rate amongst South Indians.

I did read about some Pakistanis wanting to identify themselves closer to Arabs than Indians(culturally and racially) because of some fucked up complex that Arabs are superior to Indians.

My mate, whos an indian muslim, has experienced this in lot of non arab muslim countries (Malaysia, Indonesia) and communities (even Indian Muslims) Arab muslims are treated as they are superior than the locals or themselves. According to him its because the Arabs have managed to convince uneducated non arabs about their superiority as Mohammed was born arab and the Quran is in Arabic thus they are the chosen ones.

i went to school in india with indians from all over, subcontinentals from all over and several nationalities. so, thankfully, was very isolated from all this stuff. the first time i encountered it was in college in the u.s. but the demarcation there was less along north-south lines and more along dbd/idb/ibi/srilanikans/bangladeshis/nepalis vs. abds and pakistanis vs. all subcontinentals (except for the half-pakistani, half-indian students, of which there were a few). i made only one good abd friend and stuck to the "international" group of subcontinentals/europeans/west indians/east asians(both international and american-born)/africans. in fact, overall, there was a bigger "divide" between international students and their american-born counterparts than between international students coming from different regions of their home country. seems very different to what i read here now.

Curry and Rice girl,

My father would have told you that you are perfect; his brother, my uncle, loved Bengali everything so much, I have a cousin named Subash. Daddy was convinced that Bengalis were just as Lemurian as Mallus, since both were "brilliant" and had "Communist tendencies". At our house, you would have been whole.

Incidentally, are you Arundhati? ;)

Well said.. it's not really a north-south problem. Even in Tamil movies, dark skin is ridiculed as ugly.. I think there is a problem with the "value system" that treats "dark skin" as ugly and "white skin" as beautiful

More like, "it's not always a north-south problem." I have received more 'dear family deity, he's much too dark!!!' in potential gf situations (parental review is harsh) from other Tamil families, but have never even had the chance to generate this dynamic in a north-south situation. (that's a very bare invitation)

This is an outrage! Our refusal to be co-opted is being used to abuse us! Lemurians, MuraliMannered and everyone else-- man your stations, the dread Northies are at it again. Arrrr.

(Seriously, though, that's sad. I've heard the same awesome reasoning applied my way, because I'm xtian, and the person couldn't relate to me, because of that. Ah, I love how people in our community love to broadcast shit...I would have never been the wiser, had the Hindu girl's confidante not run straight to me, apres hearing this juicy, juicy rumor-goodness...)

And so! Honestly, though I would LOVE to understand conversational Hindi, the most I get out of Hindi movies is fresh material for my inecessant SRK impressions, but it's really of his acting technique and not some general, superior sense of my 'own' culture/ethnicity/in-group's superiority.

I had so much respect for the north indian parents of BN Camp attendees who would sit through hours and hours of sloooooow tamil, telugu and sanskrit padams, varnams (or nrityopaharams of INTERMINABLE length--.5--1.5 hours!!!) etc without batting an eye-lid, losing their enthusiasm or turning their cheshire-cat grins into hindi/punjabi/urdu/gujurati-supremacist frowns. When my mother or her gurus found the time to choreograph a piece in hindi (Vaishnava Janato comes to mind--excellent material for ecumenical sermons in motion), the response from the northie parents was palpable--grateful without being desperate and not a hint of 'aw shucks the southie crap is over" relief.

I am not sure what is the definition of "North Indian" here, are UPiets, Biharis North Indians? I am asking this because they are the most hated people in India now, be it North India i.e. Delhi and Punjab or be it South. So statements like "North Indian don't like South Indians and vice versa" in IMO, don't capture the complex regional and cultural dynamics of hate in India :).

So what about people who are half and half and have lived in both regions for approximately the same amount of years? Why do you Southerners and Northerners forsake poor moi? Where do I belong?

Right here, on SM. Welcome!

Thanks Anna. From your vignettes her and at HERStory, your father sounds like a really great man.

Incidentally, are you Arundhati?

No, but my Catholic Communist grandfather is still waiting for me to pen down a counter to her novel to show her up!

Commando? Insinuating innuendo? Insinuendo!

Curry and Rice Girl - that sounds truly traumatic.

amitabh, although i hate generalisations, yes, i do see some of the social patterns you mentioned - my parents, their friends, and even much of my family back home, are rather formal in their social interactions - there is always a sort of etiquette that is followed that obviously made any outsider (and not just north indians) feel the need to be equally formal. on the other hand, in my mama's house in madras, it was always a free-for-all - anybody could come and go as they please, and would always be guaranteed a drink and a solid meal and a good chat. that's why i spent as much time as possible at his place :) i guess different strokes for different folks. my parents are their friends here are definitely more casual about these things after having lived in the states for so long. but they still find my last-minute dinner plans and casual drop-bys very odd (and shameful).

If you have not already seen it, here are a few blog posts and the ensuing torrent of comments involving cross-cultural misunderstanding (north vs south, high brow vs low brow etc) and hero worship.

Sivaji, The Boss. Of Crap

Thank you Sivaji

Life after Sivaji

I recently met a Telugu ABD who goes around telling people that he is Punjabi (he even cut off part of his last name), partly because he's "so handsome" but mostly because he's ashamed to be from a state where people are known best for being computer engineers (his words, not mine).

I just have to say, what kind of craziness is that?? White people don't give a shit if you're Telugu or Punjabi, you're brown just the same (unless of course you're extremely light-skinned and can pass, which is more likely if you're Punjabi). Also, OH NOEZ being from a state with an expanding economy! I just think it's so ridiculous how the Punjabi archetype has taken on the 'cool' aura among ABDs (who don't actually know South Asian history, and don't care about it either as much as they do about being the 'cool' ones in their little brown clique in college). It's like the Punjabi archetype has taken on the 'ghetto black kid cool' aura that is prevalent in the rest of suburban America. Also, it just shows how m'f'in IGNORANT this kid is, since he's ashamed to be from a state which has recently seen economic upswing, not realizing that Punjab has actually been much more well-off for a long time since. (Besides, if we're talking stereotypes here, wouldn't the more mainstream stereotype of Punjabis be the Sikh taxi driver?)

Also, this is purely on a shallow note, but I don't understand why desis from all over seem to agree that north Indians are generally better-looking (with more angular features as opposed to rounder ones, and of course lighter skin). But that's because a) the skin colorism in our community absolutely makes NO sense to me, ESPECIALLY when it's coming from second-gens (I mean, WTF??), and b) maybe it's a familiarity thing. I find the southie rounder features and bigger eyes and smaller noses to be more attractive. It might also have to do with my distaste for Russians after growing up in a primarily Russian neighborhood, whom I frequently confuse northies with.

But yeah, whoever said that the south Indian film industry needs it's eyes checked is totally on the spot. There are actually lots of cute south indian guys out there (many who do look like that sendhil dude), but you wouldn't know it from the moustaches and mullets and beer bellies on the most popular actors. *shudder*

Also, on a language note, as long as I'm on my southie rant: I DO NOT SPEAK HINDI. THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME ANY LESS INDIAN. My grandfather was put in jail for protesting for independence, you fucker. I can't believe the audacity of some ABDs who claim to be 'More Desi Than You' but don't know shit about their own history.

Also, I prefer south Indian food (or at least Andhra food) by a mile to northern food (except for tandoori chicken; daal makes me sick to my stomach though). Again, I think it's mostly a familiarity thing.

My grandfather was put in jail for protesting for independence, you fucker.

Samuel L. Jaikishan, is that you?

But yeah, whoever said that the south Indian film industry needs it's eyes checked is totally on the spot. There are actually lots of cute south indian guys out there (many who do look like that sendhil dude), but you wouldn't know it from the moustaches and mullets and beer bellies on the most popular actors. *shudder*

Addey madayan!!!! Disparage the sacred furry bellies of Vijaykanth, Sivaji and generations of fine s. indian actors, will you!! But glorifying Sendhil Ramamurthy is a bit much--it's really a stretch to ask the average Lemurian male to shed his/her bodyfat, grow a few inches and forget whether it was British/Chennai accent that particular day on the set.

I'd like to think i have a shot at this vaunted 'cute' status that I hear so many people nattering on about, so Sendhil is completely unrealistic. I call for a general and principled dismissal of this man as a Lemurian male ideal.

Amitabh : There are many responses to your bigoted comments. However, I shall refrain from responding except to say that you are completely wrong. I have the opposite experiences with North Indians.

On another note : Would it matter if the four Southern states seceded peacefully from the North ( like the split of Czechoslovakia).

217 · milli:
i'm curious to know how much people's experiences or perceptions of desis outside of their linguistic/caste-based communities are affected by geography (outside of desh). i politely decline to specifically name the place where i grew up for purposes of semi-anonymity
_____________________________________________________

I grew up in Westchester, ny, in the 80's--my parents had friends from north and south India--Hindu, Sikh, Jain--but not so much Muslim

On another note : Would it matter if the four Southern states seceded peacefully from the North ( like the split of Czechoslovakia).

Would it matter? Of course it would. But it's not very realistic. There might be some constant tension, but it's at a relatively low-level, and there's hardly any violence around, which basically means it's not worth for anyone to secede over.

" On another note : Would it matter if the four Southern states seceded peacefully from the North ( like the split of Czechoslovakia)."

So will it be a single Dravidian country or four new countries?

Samuel L. Jaikishan, is that you?

:P
That took me a little while to get. I can't help but be at least a little bit angry; I have actually had ABDs question my Indian-ness (whatever that may mean) because of things like not worshipping at the altar of Bollywood. What makes it more ridiculous is that I was actually born on the subcontinent, and raised there for a bit too.

muralimannered: Vijaykanth. I rest my case.

:)

I don't mean to glorify this Sendhil dude, but he's basically the only example in mainstream Western media (that I know of, at least). How about this guy?

nalah,

I'm not too thrilled about the message that one sends either. I'd be more encouraged if the fellow on the right was adjudged a candidate for Sendhil's slot on the s. indian scale.

Malathi - you talked about your lack of tamil accent. Picking an accent is an art form. I am sure you have an accent that is distinctive to Chennai. eg. I can pick a Good Shepherd / Holy Angels accent which is quite different from a PSBB accent which is again quite different from Mylapore accent. We all have accents - including ABDs - the world would be so boring if all of us sounded alike

I dont see how being ruled by biharis / punjabis helps South Indians. South India would be far better off without the baggage from up north. I would aver that Maharashtra and Gujarat should secede as well. After all they are economic powerhouses. Dont really see how having the BIMARU states in the mix helps anyone. From an economic viewpoint the BIMARU states are a drain. Plus Laloos and Mulayams get elected.

A single dravidian country but very loosely linked. Foreign policy and Defence being central subjects and everything else being a state subject. Win - win for everyone. Remember that each of these states are larger (popln/ geography) than many European nations.

221 · risible
but all's well that ends well. i eventually americanized my parents by turning them on to sushi snd bordeaux, so now the house is even funner than the northies

Hmmm so the South Indians became white to trump the Punjabis. To me that would be a pyrhhic victory, ___________________________________________________________________

Hmmm--coupla problems here--1) northern India does *not* = Punjabi--2) sushi does *not* = white--been to Gari recently--bring the freakin' cash!

So will it be a single Dravidian country or four new countries?

A DBD Telugu friend once told me that the only reason there is no Confederate States of India already is that other Southies would rather tolerate the status quo then end up being bossed around by Tamils... :)

I'm quite surprised that this issue causes so much grief for ABD's... but my comments earlier must come with the caveat that most of my experience with desis in groups is in the form of clubs and community organizations (SM might be an extension of that) that emphasized unity. I didn't grow up around desis, so there are a lot of dynamics I probably missed out on...
My introduction to desi society took place in Houston, a place with rather odd demographics. The Indian community there (in the 90's at least, I'm not sure how much this has changed) came almost exclusively from two groups, Gujaratis and Mallus. The only Punjabis I knew were Pakistanis. The whole Punjabi pop culture cult didn't exist (at least not yet).

Amitabh : There are many responses to your bigoted comments. However, I shall refrain from responding except to say that you are completely wrong. I have the opposite experiences with North Indians.

dude, chill. amitabh is a good ppl.

are you, by any chance my brother? and did i forget to say a big wtf? seriously, no love for the south indian food? although i love my southie culture to bits, i would give up every single aspect of it if i had to, except for the food. and maybe the fabric. but mostly the food. that's all i'm going to say, but i'm sure plenty of other SMers will join in in time...

well sis, as a kid i found the food harsh. all vegetarian, often bitter, outlandishly hot. but as i got older i learned to appreciate it, especially the health benefits. i still crave north indian food when i'm really hungry but it strikes me as a greasy carbfest. my parents, who are health nazis, are in their 60's and 70's, exercise every day, hike regularly, and it is quite shocking to see them next to their north indian friends, who are universally fat and immobile.

amitabh is a good ppl.

Amitabh is a good guy. I want to intervene and state that, because provocative, vulnerable comments like his are what fuel great discussions. I'd rather know the truth and explore it in a civil fashion with others, than have people remain silent, out of fear of offending us-- or inspiring negative rxns.

He knew he was taking a risk, he did it anyway, he trusted us. I respect that. I welcome it. :)

I know schools in Andhra teach Hindi and Telugu. Do schools in the north teach Hindi and a south Indian language in addition to English?

I have not read all the comments yet. But I thought I will share few thing that I *heard* from people around me.

From the article:
"That the residents of the four southern states are, on the whole, less bigoted and more forward-looking is a product not of their genes but of their environment."

This is not "entirely" true. 10 years back a town in southern AP (I forgot the name) where it used to be impossible for the north indians to have businesses. Native traders would boycott the northern traders socially. People of this town are proud people, they a spend a lot on money(only next to mysore) during dussherra and brag about it.

Also I used see a lot of very successful north indian businessmen in chennai and other places (nooks and crannies of AP and TN), who would have large families but would never mingle with the local community (Like the indian immigrants here ;-) ).

Oh,BTW
Say it loud, I am southie and I am proud

As an aside I wonder why people are taking bollywood caricatures so seriously. These guys survive on stereotyping, Christian as drunkard, Marathi female as Kaamwali bai, Bihari male as the house servant, Bengali as dhoti wearing coward guy, Muslim as the faithful gangster. I mean if you look at it I think south Indians in generals are made less fun of.

Cool factors of Southies vs Northies in the US

Southies:
Pravin(need I explain)
Ajay Naidu (Office Space)
Jay Chandrasekhar (SuperTroopers)
Tony Kanal (banged Gwen Stefani in her cooler days)
M NIght Shyamalan (made good movies at the turn of the century)
Kim Thayil (Soundgarden)
Naveen Andrews (Lost)
Mindy Kaling (Office)
Padmalakshmi(if she keeps her mouth shut, she has promise)
Anna(responsible for Indians in the US becoming less productive by putting 500-1000 comments for each blog entry)

Northies:
Kal Penn (good start)
Mira Nair
Deepa Mehta (Hollywood Bollywood makes me forget Fire)
Sarita Chowdhury(amazingly half white. I did not know that)
Indira Varma(only reason to watch Kamasutra, things are looking good)
Parminder Nagra
Rhona Mitra (who cares if she cant act, hmm, the chick factor is geting the upper hand))
Sunny Leone (Yowza, but you know, there is only so much skank factor one can take - long term)
The Ex Mr PadmaLakshmi
Gurindher Chada(uh oh North, it is not looking good)
Camille (nice save, but not enough)

No Contest. South wins.
Heh heh.

No Contest. South wins.

Pravin: pssh. Schools in Andhra don't even teach Telugu and Hindi anymore. English all the way.

I met a legendary Telugu 'megastar' recently, and his kids call him 'Dad.'

Haha @ Pravin's list

About the South seceding, I think all of India would break up if that were to happen. The Khalistanis in the supposedly Punjab-dominated North would want their own piece, Manipur and other random Northeastern states would demand their own...

There wouldn't be much of India left except for perhaps the UP/MP/HP? states.

That being said, if I may humbly offer a few observations to our South Indian friends...things about your cultures (in general) that I find hard to relate to (these are just comments, obviously your cultures do not exist to please me)...basically the conservatism, the lack of a "fun" or enjoy-life mentality...even at weddings, there's no alcohol, no meat, little music (and whatever there is is classical). And I know I'm going to get skewered here...please don't kill me...I find the hospitality in south Indian homes is (in general) sometimes less than in the north. A lot of silences, formality, a look of relief that you're not staying for dinner...I'm not trying to make enemies here...can we discuss this openly and without hostility? I realise these are crude stereotypes and there are a lot of exceptions...on all sides. I also realise that these observations are limited to upper-caste Telugus and (Indian)Tamils I've interacted with in the USA, and not people in India. I'm well aware that working-class and rural Tamil culture knows how to get its party on.

As you rightly claimed these attributes are probably limited to the specific groups. Non vegetarian food is the most attractive feature for relatives/friends in "low caste functions". We traditionally have a big feast for functions like "ear-piercing/shaving the head" for the first time for babies. That includes a lot of non-veg food. The number of goats that are sacrificeed (to the god and eaten by us.. :-) ) increases in proportion to the wealth of the organiser.. And there is "free alcohol" for the menfolk..

This is not to say "upper caste" folks don't have fun. I've observed that the many rituals they employ in weddings are "for fun" when it is usually the kids who got married at the ages of 3-10. There are typically certain rituals like the bride and the groom getting on the shoulders of their uncles, and other similar rituals.

About the whole south seceding thing... southern states themselves cannot stay together (check out information about Telangana district in AP), I doubt the different southern states would be able to stay together.

And I don't know what amitabh is talking about with regards to inhospitable southies. "A look of relief that you're not staying for dinner?" Maybe that's... personal? :P

Maybe it has to do with being an 'outsider' to the community, or it simply seems that way to anyone unfamiliar with a particular community. I don't think my family functions are that boring though... then again we are low-caste. Hmph.

For what it's worth, I've found many of the older north Indians (Gujratis in particular) I've interacted with to be brash and rude. But I chalk part of it up to cross-cultural differences.

As an aside I wonder why people are taking bollywood caricatures so seriously. These guys survive on stereotyping,

This is something I was actually curious of, in the states, while many hollywood movies take huge liberties with reality, and extend into fantasy, the racial depictions of various groups are generally taken at face value. Even in a movie like Transformers, the Bernie Mac character is somewhat typical of how a black man is "thought" to act. But as my understanding goes, Bollywood is a understood as a complete departure from reality, on all counts, in particular social. (No one expects their kids to court each other by running and dancing in fields) So I wonder, are these ethnic/regional depictions taken with the same level of "escapism from reality" as the other components?

I feel like I must have grown up under a rock since my experiences are so different :) BTW, thanks, Pravin.

it wasn't until there seemed to be more of a critical mass of tambrahms (iyengar, natch) that get-togethers with the "other" friends became less and less frequent -- and that i started becoming much more aware of cultural differences that inform some of the stereotypes that have been brought up on this thread.

although i love my southie culture to bits, i would give up every single aspect of it if i had to, except for the food. and maybe the fabric. but mostly the food

Also, on a language note, as long as I'm on my southie rant: I DO NOT SPEAK HINDI. THAT DOES NOT MAKE ME ANY LESS INDIAN. My grandfather was put in jail for protesting for independence, you fucker. I can't believe the audacity of some ABDs who claim to be 'More Desi Than You' but don't know shit about their own history.

I'd like to think i have a shot at this vaunted 'cute' status that I hear so many people nattering on about, so Sendhil is completely unrealistic. I call for a general and principled dismissal of this man as a Lemurian male ideal.

I dont see how being ruled by biharis / punjabis helps South Indians. South India would be far better off without the baggage from up north. I would aver that Maharashtra and Gujarat should secede as well. After all they are economic powerhouses.

Do schools in the north teach Hindi and a south Indian language in addition to English?

[I ran out of space above]
Despite the grief that Indo-Punjabis have clearly caused a lot of folks, I just wanted to reemphasize that some of these experiences happen regardless of where you come from. I do think there are some larger factors at play, e.g. ideas of beauty (although, to be honest, I loooove those beautiful southie faces, cute noses, and gorgeous curly hair -- the Punjabi shnoz is nothing to be envied!). And, I'm curious -- is there a lot of discrimination in the south re: the North, aside from just stereotyping? I ask because I see these regional disparities come up way more often with regards to dating (although there does seem to be a TamBram chokehold on dating "within caste" and "within region").

Hmmm--coupla problems here--

1) northern India does *not* = Punjabi--

Only if South India =Madraasi. I suppose a slightly more effective taunt would be "Bihari."

2) sushi does *not* = white--been to Gari recently--bring the freakin' cash!

Now a widespread suburban phenomenon, I would argue that Sushi acquired its international status because whitey took to it. Examine the history of your tastes. So much of what you think 'cosmpolitan' garnered its staus cos whitey took to it first. VS Naipaul dubbed the brown folks who tried to latch own to white cosmpolitanism --and came out looking foolish -- "mimic men."

It would be comical to watch the untrained Indians engage in the pompous rituals surrounding the consumption of wine. Swilling, sniffing, pretentiously claiming you can taste some "essence," etc.

I'm curious -- is there a lot of discrimination in the south re: the North, aside from just stereotyping? I ask because I see these regional disparities come up way more often with regards to dating

South is again not a monolithic entity. You have four different states and four major languages. As one commenter pointed out previously, there is some friction between Tamils/Telugus/Kannadigas/Malayalis as it is bound to be.. And even within Tamils you have people from different regions feeling discriminated against. And Telugus in Telangana definitely feel so and are agitating for a separate state.

I guess there is a high probability of discriminatory feelings against North Indians in the South. I can narrate a personal anecdote. My uncle had a Rajasthani family living as neighbors.. There are rich "settu" and "poor settu" (who are brought in from Rajasthan to work for rich settus). This fellow is a worker. He complained against my uncle throwing garbage in front of his house. There used to be a garbage bin in front of his house and he removed the bin after complaining to the municipality. But due to the habits my uncle was still throwing garbage at the same place.. Once there was a verbal fight and my uncle got angry and shouted at the neighbor claiming his rights as a "local" who has lived in the place for generations and he can't accept a newcomer dictating the rules.. The "settu" became silent and left. He made no complaints later. I don't think that guy would have nice feelings about the hospitality of southerners.

There are many stereotypes between Southerners. Malyalis, e.g., are stereotyped as "untrustworthy" by Tamils. Tamils as "easily excitable" by everyone else. The idea that these groups could form a "nation" is laughable. Here in the west, regional affinities (or in the case of some sentimental Brahmins here, sub-caste affinities) are bound to fade because of the high prevalence of inter-regional and inter-caste marriages. You can dress up your half-white son like a Brahmin, make him wear the sacred thread, teach him shlokas and shastras, but a Brahmin he will not be.

So let me recount my experiences about this growing up. My parents (esp. my dad) always felt that north Indians (Biharis, people from U.P....strangely he excepted "aristocratic" muslims of U.P. from this, M.P., punjabi hindus, but not sikhs..since I suspect his two best friends were sikh) had no kaalchaar (now you know what state they came from). Really admired South Indian culture (esp. tamilians and keralaites). Some of my relatives went further; I recall an incident where the mother is heard saying (about her son, of course), that "bapi is very smart, he has only south indian friends".

You can dress up your half-white son like a Brahmin, make him wear the sacred thread, teach him shlokas and shastras, but a Brahmin he will not be.

Ouch.

You can dress up your half-white son like a Brahmin, make him wear the sacred thread, teach him shlokas and shastras, but a Brahmin he will not be

I'm not sure what you mean ?

manju, i figured as much - too many nights in a row of south indian food occasionally made me beg for a takeout break. though i don't know why my brother hated south indian food - we ate plenty of other food in our house, ate meat, and drank alcohol. at least you learned to appreciate it - the closest my brother comes to eating south indian food is dosa - with yogurt.

camille - you can have your goan food, too - they use so much coconut anyway :) one of the best meals i've ever had was in bombay, coorgi-style.

For me this experience came in college, where I was both overwhelmed by actually attending classes with a bunch of ABDs, but also because people would just say stupid things. They had no concept of India's history or regionalism, or its diversity, frankly, and they thought everything they knew came from TV.

And, I'm curious -- is there a lot of discrimination in the south re: the North, aside from just stereotyping?

I'd like to think i have a shot at this vaunted 'cute' status that I hear so many people nattering on about, so Sendhil is completely unrealistic. I call for a general and principled dismissal of this man as a Lemurian male ideal.

Really admired South Indian culture (esp. tamilians and keralaites). Some of my relatives went further; I recall an incident where the mother is heard saying (about her son, of course), that "bapi is very smart, he has only south indian friends".

This is my experience with north indians --- but DBDs - I always hear how great Kerala is, how smart we are - which is nice, but of course just a stereotype and misleading, and I'm afraid I have to disappoint people.

sometimes I FEEL (don't know how accurate this feeling I have actually is) I have to be careful to not offend my ABD friends who are north indian, when we talk about certain social conditions or education b/c the stats for most social conditions in Kerala is so much better.

Sometimes I feel some of my indian friends, whether DBD or ABD, feel they have to make me feel less dark. For ex, we were talking about dying our hair and I said to my very light skinned friend, "well I think a reddish tinge looks great on indians with lighter skin, but I don't like that hair color for dark-skinned indians"; It's funny, b/c whether its a south indian or north indian, I usually get something like, "you are so pretty and your not that dark", and I FEEL that it is said in a way that seems to make apologies for my darkness. I just find this funny but where I of course find it troubling, is that for many indians the idea that to be dark and beautiful, well it's still not embraced in India or among ABDs, even though most Indians are brown. Anyways I think slowly we are embracing this side of our beauty.

Another thing, all this talk about north indian beauty...don't agree with this at all. Light-skin is preferred but for women, light-skin with what I would call typical South indian features. For example remember Nargis... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nargis - I don't think her type of look which could be in my mind stereotypically "north indian" is considered beautiful anymore and Ash's look is definitely in. But then of course there are so many south indians that look like Nargis and so many north indians that look like Ash, but I'm just talking about stereotypes and generalizations.

ak: you have very madrasi tastes!

ACfD - he he. indeed, i do. but how do you mean it?

Razib and ANNA, thank you.

"A look of relief that you're not staying for dinner?" Maybe that's... personal? :P

Touche...lol.

basically, if nobody is trying to force their culture/language or assert its superiority, my parents are cool.

Aren't tamilians known for this to a certain degree [not saying anything 'bout your folks], or is it just true in religious circles/temple environments?

South is again not a monolithic entity. You have four different states and four major languages.

ak, agreed. Not sure why "brownness" should/would create some kind of friend-level affinity. That said, college was also the first time I met and hung out with a large number of Pakistani (Muslim) Punjabis. The experience was totally awesome, actually. :)

I had a really funny interaction with a floormate's mom my frosh year that, to this day, both she and I remember. I basically lived in a corner of the floor, and there were two rooms next door, each occupied by at least one desi guy. One guy's mom came up to me on move-in day and asked, "Are you Indian? Are your parents going to the Indian-parent orientation?" (yes, Indus really hosts a SAsian parent orientation!!) I was totally flustered and said something to the effect of no, but thank you for the info. To which she replied, "Well, you look like a nice Indian girl, make sure you look out for my beta, ok?" W.T.F!? Why should I care about your creepy son!? [aside: the three of us are actually still friends, but there was an awkward period where I was trying to figure out whose mom she had been]

I wonder if these prejudices vary by socioeconomic or religious community. Not to stir trouble up; I'm just curious.

ACfD - he he. indeed, i do. but how do you mean it?

I am just messing with you :)

Not to be cheeky, but the same can be argued of the North :)

Yes, I don't think I denied that ever.. what's the need to be cheeky??. :-)

not sure south indians are any more open minded. i think tam brahms have sneering down to an art form.

PS@267
Many "Telugu" actresses are in fact Punjabi these days. Some examples are Bhumika Chawla, Simmi. When they have a "launch" press conference, some of them cannot even speak Hindi, leave alone Telugu. Komalini Mukherjee is another example of a non telugu Telugu actress. I'm presuming that this phenomenon is because of a preference for fair skin and "northern features".

what can i say ACfD - my mom is the president of the tamil sangam - i have come to spread the word on SM! by the time i'm done at SM, you all will bow to the beauty of the kanjeevaram, praise the superiority(?) of saravana bhavan, and insist that madras kaapi is the only way to go! (on a side note, we're actually telugu)

but, seriously, like HMF was saying, TN is particularly anti-hindi (maybe more so than the other three states) and this has much to do with its political history/parties. we have political parties whose core platform is secession - can anybody tell me whether the other southern states have this? but these days, tamilians are not as anti-hindi - many kids in school take it as their second language (in the posher schools, many choose hindi over tamil) because they realise its potential to widen their career options across india. my dad can follow hindi somewhat, and my mom, who was born after the compulsory hindi curriculum was removed in TN, started taking hindi lessons a few years back.

PonSel@261

What does "settu" mean? Seth?

What does "settu" mean? Seth?

lifelong:

What does "settu" mean? Seth?

To tell you the truth.. I don't know. Like the North Indians use "madrasi" as a generic term for all the south indians, "settu" is used by Tamils to denote all North Indians.

I really do not know the etymology of the term, could be from "Seth".. associated with money lenders..

You can dress up your half-white son like a Brahmin, make him wear the sacred thread, teach him shlokas and shastras, but a Brahmin he will not be.

Ouch.

Ouch indeed. Whatever group you want to be affiliated to, is completely chosen by you. Your birth is only a small part of the story. If you want to identify with some group other than what your birth dictates, more power to you. For crying out loud, someone could be a DBD who chooses to be a US citizen. What are you going to tell them? "You can dress up in jeans and t-shirts and vote in Presidential elections but an American you will not be"?

PS@267
Many "Telugu" actresses are in fact Punjabi these days. Some examples are Bhumika Chawla, Simmi. When they have a "launch" press conference, some of them cannot even speak Hindi, leave alone Telugu. Komalini Mukherjee is another example of a non telugu Telugu actress. I'm presuming that this phenomenon is because of a preference for fair skin and "northern features".

Maybe, or maybe these punjabis have the light skin that's prized by all indians and can "pass" as south indian, with south indian features...who knows? I don't know what these actresses look like.

why the heck do people get so worked up about language? i mean...its a tool for effective communication. if i could speak hindi, french, italian, chineese etc...i would be all over that..

"You can dress up in jeans and t-shirts and vote in Presidential elections but an American you will not be"?

i think the primary difference is that you can become american. a caste is (mostly) a club you've got to be born into. i dont think you can say "yay..im a XYZ (insert caste here)" and automatically become that person. there are some nonsense rules involved.

PindaUSA:

i think tam brahms have sneering down to an art form.

Huh, a sneerable dilettante! A true connoisseur would know that sneering is an exact science, not an art.

Huh, a sneerable dilettante! A true connoisseur would know that sneering is an exact science, not an art.

thats tru...tam brahms arent allowed to be art majors. only science. my bad..

we have political parties whose core platform is secession

Do you mean like the DMK?

because they realise its potential to widen their career options across india.

I dunno, doesn't English cover the "practical language for going to all cities within India" gamut? I remember I was looking at study abroad programs in India, and I spoke to the director of one, and she asked, "Do you know Hindi?" I said no, then she said, "If you study here, you should take Hindi, you can't really know anything about India without Hindi"

There's just a sentimentality/psychology associated with it I think.

There's just a sentimentality/psychology associated with it I think.

ahh...the psychology of "i am indian and speak hindi. therefore to know anything about india you must speak hindi"

why the heck do people get so worked up about language? i mean...its a tool for effective communication. if i could speak hindi, french, italian, chineese etc...i would be all over that..

HMF, i was referring to the DMK and its off-shoots. that element of secession is still there, definitely.

re hindi vs. english, i meant that it just makes it easier for some people - as in melbourne desi's example in bihar. but a lot of these poshly educated people are thinking more delhi or bombay, where even if english is enough, hindi gives you a social advantage, which is key for networking.

I took hindi classes in college to try to fit in with the desi crowd better. unfortunately i found out that im incompetant at languages...

I think the language conflict comes up when one language is exalted over all others. In the case of Hindi, Hindi is not widely spoken across the subcontinent, and it is associated with a few states as the "regional dialect." Post-partition there was quite a bit of trumpeting of "Hind, Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan!" My parents were told that learning Punjabi was "rural, regionalistic, and backwards" and were only taught in Hindi and English. So, whether or not Hindi intrinsically means anything bad, it's been co-opted in nationalist rhetoric at different historic moments. It seems like Tamil has a similar (nationalist) history. It's not the language itself that's an issue -- it's how people use it as a symbol to push their vision.

perhaps it's the idea that english is separate but equal (or even superior, but it doesn't matter, because it's still not a desi language, so it is judged by a different standard) but an innate defensiveness enters when dealing with another desi language. as if this is some zero-sum game.

I can understand English over other South Asian languages --- English isn't indigenous in India and if you have to learn English, in theory, everyone is on equal ground. Whereas if Hindi-speaking or Tamil-speaking is emphasized, people in different parts of India, will have the leg-up on everyone else. Therefore English is kindof equalizing. India's so unique in this way --- we're definitely a nation, but without a common language, not matter that HIndi is the national language.

I think the language conflict comes up when one language is exalted over all others. In the case of Hindi, Hindi is not widely spoken across the subcontinent, and it is associated with a few states as the "regional dialect." Post-partition there was quite a bit of trumpeting of "Hind, Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan!" My parents were told that learning Punjabi was "rural, regionalistic, and backwards" and were only taught in Hindi and English. So, whether or not Hindi intrinsically means anything bad, it's been co-opted in nationalist rhetoric at different historic moments. It seems like Tamil has a similar (nationalist) history. It's not the language itself that's an issue -- it's how people use it as a symbol to push their vision.

thats interesting. explains why the older south indian crowd i know gets whipped into a frenzy saying that "they" wanted to "kill tamil" whenever I mentioned hindi.

i think the primary difference is that you can become american. a caste is (mostly) a club you've got to be born into. i dont think you can say "yay..im a XYZ (insert caste here)" and automatically become that person. there are some nonsense rules involved.

I agree with you that the "rules" are pure nonsense. But I believe in full mobility between castes/religions/nationalities or whatever else. In particular, I reject the notion that "I was born in an X family, my parents were X, therefore I am also X". If you want to be Y (where Y can be the same as X) of your own choice, I'm all for it. This by the way is not a radical view - it has had precedent in TamLand - MGR, EVR and Rajnikanth are identified as Tamil irrespective of their ancestry (Sri Lankan-born Nair, Erode-born Kannadiga, Bangalore-born Maharashtrian respectively).

identified as Tamil

i think language also might be a different from caste. caste is an odd thorny case...i mean, if your not of brahmin descent and you say you are a brahmin in a matrimonial add or something, that wouldnt fly...

India's so unique in this way --- we're definitely a nation, but without a common language, not matter that HIndi is the national language.

In fact, if you look at a picture of the currency, the languages are arranged alphabetically, by the English alphabet.

has a knee-jerk reaction to

I'm not sure that everyone that reacts this way is particularly "knee-jerking" Learning languages is a time exhaustive task, one that needs repeated reinforcement. For me its more of a cost benefit thing, If you can travel in most Indian cities with English (and perhaps even work in them) whats the point?

whcih is exactly why i don't understand when people are OK with learning english, but not with hindi.

Well, the English teachers may have been a lot cooler.

/tongue firmly in cheek

thats interesting. explains why the older south indian crowd i know gets whipped into a frenzy saying that "they" wanted to "kill tamil" whenever I mentioned hindi.

And their "frenzy" was valid. Actually the Congress leaders tried to push English out and make Hindi the sole official language from 1965 . English was given time only for the first 15 years after Independence (actually the Republic, from 26 Jan 1950). Thanks to the anti-Hindi riots in Tamilnadu and some sane "national" leaders English's official status was retained.. It is more of a "replace English with Hindi zeal" that pissed off South Indians particularly Tamils. coupled with the requirement that people from every non-Hindi state should compulsarily learn Hindi for national integration while giving a free pass to the "Hindi speaking crowd" of learning any of the south indian languages. Tamils said, "sorry no thanks".

Risible, try and control your unwarranted hostility and insensitivity. The majority of people who read this site prefer policies of inclusion and tolerance to uncalled for insults about "half-whites". Stop it.

Well, the English teachers may have been a lot cooler.

:); it's been awhile since I've seen Pulp Fiction, but damn, that part was scary to me.

Actually the Congress leaders tried to push English out and make Hindi the sole official language from 1965 . English was given time only for the first 15 years after Independence (actually the Republic, from 26 Jan 1950).

This is true. I'd like to add that this was written into Article 343 of the Indian constitution, which I paste below.

343. Official language of the Union.—(1) The official language of the Union shall be Hindi in Devanagari script. The form of numerals to be used for the official purposes of the Union shall be the international form of Indian numerals. (2) Notwithstanding anything in clause (1), for a period of fifteen years from the commencement of this Constitution, the English language shall continue to be used for all the official purposes of the Union for which it was being used immediately before such commencement: Provided that the President may, during the said period, by order authorise the use of the Hindi language in addition to the English language and of the Devanagari form of numerals in addition to the international form of Indian numerals for any of the official purposes of the Union. (3) Notwithstanding anything in this article, Parliament may by law provide for the use, after the said period of fifteen years, of— (a) the English language, or (b) the Devanagari form of numerals, for such purposes as may be specified in the law.

"who is Hindu" or authentic

I dont think he said "hindu" or "authentic". i think he said brahmin. and...in the odd case of caste, he has a point. not that its very nice or PC or sane, but thats just how it works (mostly).

whcih is exactly why i don't understand when people are OK with learning english, but not with hindi

English is the language associated with science/modern development whereas Hindi is not and people have been used to English. Whether you agree or not Hindi is as foreign a language as English is to many people. Why swallow the pain of learning two foreign languages if you can get by with one..

I support people learning "Swahili" if it helps in improving their lives. Otherwise I'd let them choose whatever they want.

I support people learning "Swahili" if it helps in improving their lives. Otherwise I'd let them choose whatever they want.

puli hammers away at work while cursing softly backwards to himself in esperanto...

does anyone think learning chineese will ever become nessicary to be a businessman in india?

What is your state?

Would that be a north-eastern state? :)

I support people learning "Swahili" if it helps in improving their lives. Otherwise I'd let them choose whatever they want.

Nien Numb, who copiloted the Millenium Falcon along with Lando Calrissian, during the Battle of Endor, spoke a little bit of Swahili.

thats interesting. explains why the older south indian crowd i know gets whipped into a frenzy saying that "they" wanted to "kill tamil" whenever I mentioned hindi.

And their "frenzy" was valid. Actually the Congress leaders tried to push English out and make Hindi the sole official language from 1965 . English was given time only for the first 15 years after Independence (actually the Republic, from 26 Jan 1950).

That said, while I understand the anti-colonial sentiment around English, I generally prefer it. I know this also has a regional bias, though, since occupation and use of English was more wide-spread (as I understand it) in the North.

I support people learning "Swahili" if it helps in improving their lives. Otherwise I'd let them choose whatever they want.

I reject the notion that "I was born in an X family, my parents were X, therefore I am also X".

I'm not sure that everyone that reacts this way is particularly "knee-jerking"

ponniyin selvan @ 303, i understand that sentiment - and of course indians living in different states have a hierarchy of the languages that are necessary to their operation as a pragmatic issue. what i was commenting is the idea that this anti-hindi response rejects, in some small way, a sense of a unified india. i am completely against a compulsory hindi requirement, but i question the rational reasons for its rejection - i.e. lack of openness to learning it at all. when i took up hindi, it was not received well by many. it was seen as a sort of rejection of tamil.

What is your state?

Sober. For now.

-- Not Hemingway.

Nien Numb, who copiloted the Millenium Falcon along with Lando Calrissian, during the Battle of Endor, spoke a little bit of Swahili.

Do schools in the north teach Hindi and a south Indian language in addition to English?

Not the school I went to. We had Hindi, English and Sanskrit. It's interesting that other than Mathematics, Sanskrit was the only other subject where one could score 100% in tests.

Amitabh, glad that you talked about your experience. I'll take honesty (expressed in a civil manner of course) over PC-ness any day if we are to make any progress.

My parents were told that learning Punjabi was "rural, regionalistic, and backwards" and were only taught in Hindi and English.

Camille, my parents speak excellent Punjabi but my fluency is nowhere near their level. I wish my parents had also taught me Punjabi when growing up, but their focus was on me learning English (and Hindi). It's a shame that such beautiful languages are being sidelined. A friend of mine from Karnataka (living in the US) doesn't teach his kids (they're still young) Kannada because he doesn't think it's necessary, which I think is a shame.

knee-jerking was in her own words. but besides her, the knee-jerk reaction for many has nothing to do with the time or necessity of learning the language - rather it is a reaction that has political/historical sentiments, as in bdesh, and as in TN.

Oh I don't doubt that knee-jerk response exists, just that some who refuse to learn Hindi do it for practical reasons and not some kind of stubborn, self-defeating, political statement.

i can understand the kannada/tamil mix my family speaks at home, but i sound like george W bush speaking spanish when i speak it. i need to work on that...

If a South Indian learns English, they can communicate in most Indian states and overseas. If a South Indian learns Hindi, they are limited to North India. Bombay, and parts of South India. Is Bombay considered a Marathi or a Hindi city or is it very bilingual?
Imagine if my dad learned Hindi instead of English in school. He came here in the 60s. He was able to assimilate very fast.

There is no reason to force a South Indian to learn Hindi. Just as India took in Mughal influences, I see nothing wrong in Indians claiming English as one of its own languages.

I dont think he said "hindu" or "authentic". i think he said brahmin. and...in the odd case of caste, he has a point. not that its very nice or PC or sane, but thats just how it works (mostly).

Well then keep that insanity off this site. It's one thing to joke about being a Tamil Brahmin, another to be a dick about it. There are people on this site who don't appreciate when others are vicious about ISKCON, and that movement freely uses the word converts. SM is not the place for debating which kind of Hinduism is superior and frankly, anyone who wants to pretend that being a Brahmin makes them superior to others is not welcome on this site.

Females are more likely to be aborted in India. That's not very nice or PC or sane, but that's just how it works (mostly). Everyone makes choices. We can choose to reject disgusting attitudes which would (and have, already on this thread) be hurtful to those lowly half-whites.

There is no reason to force a South Indian to learn Hindi

i dont know why its nessicary to force other people to do anything other than "dont kill" and simple stuff like that"

That said, while I understand the anti-colonial sentiment around English, I generally prefer it. I know this also has a regional bias, though, since occupation and use of English was more wide-spread (as I understand it) in the North.

I can understand the anti-colonial sentiment of the North Indian leaders and their bias and disgust against English as a "colonial tool of oppression" is valid. But think about it, you are against the language of imperialists, but then try to enforce an equally alien and imperial language Hindi on southerners just because the southerners don't have the numbers. Don't you become the neo-language imperialists?.
Fortunately, the leaders were sane and realised this is not going to work and rescinded the decision.

I'm no fan of English either and I think English is a far bigger threat to Indian languages (atleast to Tamil) than Hindi. You can't find a student in urban Tamilnadu who speaks a sentence in Tamil without mixing an English word in it. But I can't force the students not to learn English while I learnt it and making good use of it to get employed / travel abroad / have a nice life etc.. It is the fact of life that English knowledge is required for advancement in life (at least now and in the immediate future)
.
There are some political leaders who have realised that and are making the right noises now..

ponniyin selvan @ 303, i understand that sentiment - and of course indians living in different states have a hierarchy of the languages that are necessary to their operation as a pragmatic issue. what i was commenting is the idea that this anti-hindi response rejects, in some small way, a sense of a unified india. i am completely against a compulsory hindi requirement, but i question the rational reasons for its rejection - i.e. lack of openness to learning it at all. when i took up hindi, it was not received well by many. it was seen as a sort of rejection of tamil.

being a Brahmin makes them superior to others is not welcome on this site.

i didnt even read that as a claim of superiority....it is just a statement of fact. caste is not a club (again..mosly) that you can sign up for or something...

I'm no fan of English either and I think English is a far bigger threat to Indian languages (atleast to Tamil) than Hindi. You can't find a student in urban Tamilnadu who speaks a sentence in Tamil without mixing an English word in it. But I can't force the students not to learn English while I learnt it and making good use of it to get employed / travel abroad / have a nice life etc.. It is the fact of life that English knowledge is required for advancement in life (at least now and in the immediate future)

does it really matter what langugage people are speaking? i mean. if everyone was suddently speaking binary, whats wrong with that..

Camille@308
Huh? English occupation and use of English language. was also widespread in the South, pre-partition. See Ramachandra Guha's essay titled "The Better Half" posted upthread.

Is it me, or are we making a big fuss about learning languages? I met a octogenarian who could read and write 7 languages. Both of my grandmothers read and wrote 5 languages. My mom and mother-in-law can read and write 4 languages. I consider it a badge of honor that I can converse in 3 or 4 languages, but sadly I only read roman script well, and devnagari poorly.

I think I posted too soon..

ponniyin selvan @ 303, i understand that sentiment - and of course indians living in different states have a hierarchy of the languages that are necessary to their operation as a pragmatic issue. what i was commenting is the idea that this anti-hindi response rejects, in some small way, a sense of a unified india. i am completely against a compulsory hindi requirement, but i question the rational reasons for its rejection - i.e. lack of openness to learning it at all. when i took up hindi, it was not received well by many. it was seen as a sort of rejection of tamil.

Depending upon whether you chose Hindi over Tamil or not. If it is atleast technically it is called a rejection.

I think you are bought into the idea that for a unified India everyone needs to know Hindi. I have no such qualms.

if everyone was suddently speaking binary, whats wrong with that..

What is this? Monty Python?

Man giving presentation: "001011011001001. 001?".

Audience member: "001110010?"

Speech-giver: "1!"

it is just a statement of fact.

Was it? Or is it like when commenters casually drop in that they, personally are fair, but they think it's terrible what those darkies suffer?

caste is not a club

Then people should stop treating it like one.

Keep in mind that we moderate after a comprehensive view of a person's activity on this site. When someone goes out of their way to submit anti-Muslim and anti-Christian propaganda, which isn't even news, on the news tab, it raises a flag. When they sneer at "half-white" mongrels, it raises another. Whatever all that is about, it is not welcome here.

Camille, my parents speak excellent Punjabi but my fluency is nowhere near their level. I wish my parents had also taught me Punjabi when growing up, but their focus was on me learning English (and Hindi).

I can understand the anti-colonial sentiment of the North Indian leaders and their bias and disgust against English as a "colonial tool of oppression" is valid. But think about it, you are against the language of imperialists, but then try to enforce an equally alien and imperial language Hindi on southerners just because the southerners don't have the numbers. Don't you become the neo-language imperialists?.

wow.....your as geeky as i am....

Are you throwing a starwars gauntlet down?

Keep in mind that we moderate after a comprehensive view of a person's activity on this site.

thats a good point. i was just looking at that statement in isolation.

caste is not a club

that was half my sentence taken out of context....

Was it? Or is it like when commenters casually drop in that they, personally are fair, but they think it's terrible what those darkies suffer?

that is not simply a statement of fact in the same way the prior statement was.

but...hey..its not my site...

Are you throwing a starwars gauntlet down?

nah. my geekyness runs more along the star trek vein...

Huh? English occupation and use of English language. was also widespread in the South, pre-partition. See Ramachandra Guha's essay titled "The Better Half" posted upthread.

Also, I don't understand the argument that a rejection of Hindi is a rejection of a unified India. Sorry, I just now read that section. I'm prone to delayed reaction time.

Hey kids, let's not get into a 1011 battle, or argue over whose Wookie did what, yeah? :)

does it really matter what langugage people are speaking? i mean. if everyone was suddently speaking binary, whats wrong with that..

I do think something gets lost when (in this case) English is replacing say Malayalam. In Kerala, unlike TN, Malayalam is not being pursued by young students. Everyone wants English, English, English. Lots of times I've heard my father and other influential Malayalees speak about the loss of Malayalam, that Malayalees, unlike the Tamils, are not pursuing their language. Most students, in Kerala today, after they take the basic Malayalam, will take higher studies in English medium. I've heard a lot of my parents' generation say, that Malayalam is such a difficult language that it's just easier for the students to pursue English and then English is of course global so it helps them too.

There's so many things that can be said in Malayalam and I just can't express in English.

But the change doesn't have to be bad...we gain a lot, I suppose with English. Culture changes and this time, the change is not happening by force or violence, unless some people think globalization is a type of violence. I remember an essay Amartya Sen wrote about not being afraid of cultural change - no need to "preserve" it. I'm starting to think the Malayalam will go the way of Sanskrit in 100 years, and will be replaced by English as Kerala's language. If you speak English in Kerala, I'd say you can get along fine.

Hey kids, let's not get into a 1011 battle, or argue over whose Wookie did what, yeah? :)

note to self....be cooler.

I think you are bought into the idea that for a unified India everyone needs to know Hindi. I have no such qualms.

wow.....your as geeky as i am....

Are you throwing a starwars gauntlet down?

nah. my geekyness runs more along the star trek vein...

If you guys are going to have a fight about whether the Borg can defeat Darth Vader, I'm out of here.

If you guys are going to have a fight about whether the Borg can defeat Darth Vader, I'm out of here.

resistance is futile....oops. i couldnt resist.

does it really matter what langugage people are speaking? i mean. if everyone was suddently speaking binary, whats wrong with that..

Honestly nothing really matters. I think the philosophical view is "Everyone is going to die someday". :-)

In the meantime, some people find that their language is worth fighting for, some people find that their religion/god is worth fighting for.. It is tough to explain why somethings matter to someone and somethings don't matter to someone else..

instead, there is sometimes a feeling that regional cultures are so separate as to have nothing in common except for their central government.

why does the thing that has to be in common "culture". what precisely do you mean by culture anyways. i mean, cant poeple not speak the same langaugage in 2 different parts of a country and still have a bunch of other stuff in common?

Honestly nothing really matters.

but...hey..its not my site...

Puliogre, it is your site and that is why we moderate the way we do. It's everyone's site, provided that everyone isn't an ass.

The same instincts which caused us to delete a horrid attempt to "out" someone by revealing personal information about them, kick in here. If people don't feel welcome or safe, they won't come. It's that simple. And when a half-white commenter responds with an "ouch", it's time to step in. I am not trying to have a fight with you or take your words out of context, nor am I accusing you of anything. I'm just trying to make sure that this conversation can continue, the way it should-- in a civil fashion.

And when a half-white commenter responds with an "ouch",

fair enough...

why does the thing that has to be in common "culture". what precisely do you mean by culture anyways. i mean, can't people not speak the same langaugage in 2 different parts of a country and still have a bunch of other stuff in common?

that a lot of desis tend to stick to people who have similar cultural backgrounds as they do, whether they define that culture by geography, language religion, or otherwise.

i dont deny that. but...having people of the same group stick together doesnt mean that the country is just being held together just because there is a common government.

"If you guys are going to have a fight about whether the Borg can defeat Darth Vader, I'm out of here."

See this I never got, It's almost as silly as the Tamil v. Hindi debate.

"nah. my geekyness runs more along the star trek vein..."

Thats what I thought.

Thats what I thought.

although i do know a $hitl0ad about starwars. im not very confrontational though...

no, i don't believe that. but i find it puzzling that people outright reject hindi, and not for any linguistic reasons, either. i think a unified india means that people feel they have something in common with fellow citizens, and are able to get over linguistic differences to feel that. instead, there is sometimes a feeling that regional cultures are so separate as to have nothing in common except for their central government. that said, i think language is a big deal in the south for political reasons - i'm not sure it was so rigid earlier - like your grandmother, mine also could read and write in several languages.

I don't think we should torture millions of students the burden of an extra language just so that some people feel that they have something in common with some other people. It is a waste of time / resources and money.

Actually regional cultures are separate and you can find a lot of overlaps between neighbouring cultures as you would expect but as the distance grows differences grow too. We need to live with differences and not try to forge an artificial unity forcefully..

My grandmother knew just one language and I think you got confused with another commented.

i think the discrimination runs both ways. for example, for all of the messed up stuff ive heard about south indians out of the mouhts of north indians, ive heard enough south indians say things like "dont marry a punjabi. punjabis drink, are agressive and will run you over" i just stand there kinda slack jawed at that point.

but...having people of the same group stick together doesnt mean that the country is just being held together just because there is a common government.

I fail to understand why some people feel that learning Hindi is sort of belittling their state language. I mean as a DBD growing up in small town Orissa, I learnt three languages upto class 10 (Oriya, English and Hindi). A lot of my friends from different states are trilingual. So the thing that people down south feel that I learn English instead of Hindi. Why not both?

PS: If you're ABD of course you are American and expected to learn only English.

I fail to understand why some people feel that learning Hindi is sort of belittling their state language. I mean as a DBD growing up in small town Orissa, I learnt three languages upto class 10 (Oriya, English and Hindi). A lot of my friends from different states are trilingual. So the thing that people down south feel that I learn English instead of Hindi. Why not both?

To Melbourne desi in #240,

I definitely have an accent, I am just not sure if it is *the* accent that is expected out of me when one hears that I spent the first 19 years of my life in Madras. That was the point I was making in comment # 116. I also spent 6 years in Russia/Ukraine speaking mainly Russian with a bunch of Spanish-speaking Latin American roommates and some Ukrainian with babushkas on the farms before I headed to North America. It is anyone's guess now what my current accent exactly is, altho' my husband doesn't hesitate to smile and let me know promptly when I pronounce something in a very 'Indian' way.

Maybe I did a poor job of conveying my intended point. Which was, that irrespective of how I actually sound, I apparently fulfilled the role of providing laughter relief for two people who had typical, identifiable, regional accents of their own while living outside India (not that there is anything wrong with accents, but with laughing at another accent, now that's another matter).

I fail to understand why some people feel that learning Hindi is sort of belittling their state language.

if state A says state B needs to learn my langaguage causse its the indian language, then doesnt learn state B's language. it kind of does belittle state B's language. like state A's language is "th language" and state b can go f-ck itself.

whcih is exactly why i don't understand when people are OK with learning english, but not with hindi. one of my friends - who is rather liberal in most ways - has a knee-jerk reaction to anything urdu (and by extension hindi) because her family is bdeshi.

Wow. I really am stunned to find the number of 'DBD' issues that are spilling over into 'ABD' interactions, and while many DBDs themselves are moving on past them, they are acquiring new lives and sharper edges in the 2gen diaspora.

And BTW, it is not quite true to posit that Hindi advantaged only North Indians. 'Hindi' as constructed post-1950, is an artificial language, that in its Sanskritized vocabulary is actually just as foreign to people from the so-called Hindi belt as it is foreign in its grammar, syntax and script to many people from the South.

Interestingly, South Indian Brahmins who could read Devanagari (because they knew Sanskrit) were actually at an advantage in some ways, and many of the people employed by the Govt of India post-1950 to manufacture the vocabulary of the new Hindi from the Sanskritic base, were SI brahmins. North Indians were at a slight advantage only because the new Hindi retained the grammatical base of the old Hindustani, but even then, as Camille points out, people from Punjab, especially Sikhs who use Gurmukhi, or Kashmiris, etc, find Hindi can be quite unfamiliar in significant ways. It is really Bollywood that has, in a soft power kind of way, established Hindi in North India.

If, from 'Hindi', you take away the Sanskritized vocab, and bring back the Persian vocab, replace the Devanagari script with the Perso-Arabic script, you get Urdu - which served as the link language throughout most of the Mughal and British periods. And some version of it was spoken almost everywhere, including South India, Bengal, Nepal and even parts of Sri Lanka - that's why you have all the regional accents of Urdu that the clip and the program linked above was able to spoof. The Persian script was not known to all, but then not that many people could read and write anyway. However, the spoken version was available to all, and did serve as a link language in the pre-1947 period, since English did not fully penetrate everywhere.

The special animus some Bangladeshis have regarding Urdu has to do with their history within pre-1971 Pakistan, where they saw it, and the Perso-Arabic script, as hegemonizing their own, and they associated it with the oppressor. The irony there is that Urdu is not native to Pakistan, just as, in its Sanskritized form, Hindi is also foreign to most of the Hindi belt. But the spillover of this sentiment into the 2gen is worrisome indeed, especially since it would lack both the historical context and the situational nuance.

Both India and Pakistan, each in their own way, chose 'national' languages that were seen as 'belonging to' hegemonic majorities (the 'North' in India and the 'West' in Pakistan) - while they were truly not that - and begat sub-nationalisms, which in the case of Bangladesh was successful (of course there were other reasons too, but that was at the root).

And I'm stunned to hear secessionist sentiments being expressed, ok, half-jokingly right now, regarding the four Southern states, by the 2gen diaspora. Let's stay clear of half-thought-out non-inclusive categories, shall we? All these wounds, however personally hurtful they might have been to us in our childhood and youth, are not worth nursing so continuously in the diasporic community to the extent that they lead us to demand new imaginary homelands! Let us instead, in our own lives, choose inclusiveness, not division and exclusion, because this is the kind of thing each of us can make a difference to. And more knowledge always helps, because you realize that the categories through which you see the world are too rigid, the real world is wonderfully more complex.

ive heard enough south indians say things like "dont marry a punjabi. punjabis drink, are agressive and will run you over" i just stand there kinda slack jawed at that point.

ponniyin selvan, sorry about the grandparent mix-up :) i am not advocating any extra language recitation. nor am i saying people hould be forced to find commonalities. rather, i am just lamenting the existence of certain viewpoints, inasmuch as they are based on stereotype and political rhetoric.

The phrases I think are funnier are things like "Water piyo, ji!"

See, I don't think this is funny, I think this is sad. And I've sometimes heard the even more extreme version, which is "water drink karo, ji". I think it's sad because it's a total, unnecessary degradation.

I'm starting to think the Malayalam will go the way of Sanskrit in 100 years, and will be replaced by English as Kerala's language.

I think you're right, not just for Kerala by the way, and I think 100 years is a good appproximation of the time-frame it will take. Nigeria has shown us that you don't need excellent educational facilities and rich people to become an English-speaking country...what's happened there is that upper class folks all speak good English, and poor, illiterate people speak a pidginised 'street English'. Traditional languages like Yoruba, Igbo, etc. are dying out. PEOPLE WOULD RATHER SPEAK PIDGINISED STREET ENGLISH than their own tribal languages! Extrapolated to India, Hinglish (and other regional mishmashes) is already very common place...it wouldn't be a huge reach for some kind of Indianised English to become the main spoken language on the streets of urban India in a generation or two. Rural areas will follow a generation later.

i just say, bring it on, baby. at least they'll be bhangra at the wedding :)

i usually say....im not trying to marry "a punjabi". i would preffer marrying a specific girl. that usually causes people to scratch their heads and go away.

degradation

languages always change. why degradation?

"although i do know a $hitl0ad about starwars. im not very confrontational though..."

Bring it. if you'd like, I mean.

if state A says state B needs to learn my langaguage causse its the indian language, then doesnt learn state B's language. it kind of does belittle state B's language. like state A's language is "th language" and state b can go f-ck itself.

So if you want Tamil/Telegu/Punjabi/XYZ/whatever as national language, just outbreed the Hindi speaking people!!!

Is it me, or are we making a big fuss about learning languages? I met a octogenarian who could read and write 7 languages. Both of my grandmothers read and wrote 5 languages. My mom and mother-in-law can read and write 4 languages. I consider it a badge of honor that I can converse in 3 or 4 languages, but sadly I only read roman script well, and devnagari poorly.

From the Foundation for Endangered Languages:

The most authoritative source on the languages of the world (Ethnologue, Grimes 1996) lists just over 6,500 living languages. Population figures are available for just over 6,000 of them (or 92%). Of these 6,000, it may be noted that:

52% are spoken by fewer than 10,000 people;
28% by fewer than 1,000; and
83% are restricted to single countries, and so are particularly exposed to the policies of a single government.
At the other end of the scale, 10 major languages, each spoken by over 109 million people, are the mother tongues of almost half (49%) of the world's population.

I don't know about you all, but I think this is a major loss to the world... I don't blame anyone for wanting to preserve their mother tongue, despite all the ways that perfectly reasonable sentiment has been twisted and manipulated for various ends.

it wouldn't be a huge reach for some kind of Indianised English to become the main spoken language on the streets of urban India in a generation or two. Rural areas will follow a generation later.

Are you saying eventually we'll all be speaking 'newspeak'?

languages always change. why degradation?

Languages do change. That's a natural process. And sometimes conditions make them change faster, other times slower. But let's take the phrase in question here...."Drink water, sir!" (or a better translation would be 'have some water, sir') The Hindi/Punjabi rendition is "Paani peeyo, ji". This is as basic as it gets. To replace 'paani' with 'water' seems unnecessary, but ok, maybe that's fair enough in some circumstances. To further replace 'peeyo' with 'drink karo' is just mind-boggling (and incredibly lazy) to me. I mean, what are you left with then? Where did your language go?

Well "Hindi" is national language. Not a language of a state. That's how democracy works, what majority of voters want, that's what they get. When Hispanics become majority here, most of out grandchildren will be speaking fluent Spanish.
So if you want Tamil/Telegu/Punjabi/XYZ/whatever as national language, just outbreed the Hindi speaking people!!!

Your missing some MAJOR points IMO.

If you want to compare English-speaking United States - well when the US was created as a nation some 200+ years ago, everyone spoke English. Note that I am not including African-Americans who still spoke their native African language or the Native Americans, b/c they were not considered part of the US nation.

The period of India's creation also was a time, when governments were trying to uphold human rights. When India was formed, the majority of Indians, didn't speak Hindi (unlike the US nation-state was created by only English-speakers)...the majority spoke other languages. India is a democracy and its a democracy that's unique to its billions of people who do not share a common language - which is one reason the Indian democracy demarcated states according to linguistic traditions. There's no reason that a minority language, such as Hindi, should be chosen as THE language to represent India; As a democracy India will have to learn to accomodate the millions of non-Hindi speakers and non-Hindi traditions.

Curry and Rice Girl in #219

Of course there are also people who believe that since I am a half bengali, I am argumentative and pretentious - combine that with a PhD and the other half of the population who buys into the above hackneyed ideas, I am the poster of un-marriageability (not that I am complaining, but my poor mom's dreams!!)

Putting aside humility and modesty for a moment, I want to share with you, Curry and Rice Girl, a few, selected lines from a poem I wrote in 1999, when I was single and had to live through conflicting emotions and thoughts. The poem was called 'My Mother's Extension'

...[My mother] was relegated to being under-educated,
I make up for it by striving to be over-educated.
For every year of education that she didn't have,
Her value in the marriage market soared.
For every year of education that I do add,
My value in the marriage market drops.
The age at which she wanted to add a missing career slot to her family life,
Is now the same age that I want to add a missing family slot to my career life...

Less than a year after I wrote those lines, I met the man who would become my husband.

Well "Hindi" is national language. Not a language of a state. That's how democracy works, what majority of voters want, that's what they get. When Hispanics become majority here, most of out grandchildren will be speaking fluent Spanish. So if you want Tamil/Telegu/Punjabi/XYZ/whatever as national language, just outbreed the Hindi speaking people!!!

You can kick your legs and cry as much as you want. The same democracy you are talking about gives us freedom to choose whatever we want. So you can keep on complaining. But till the day hindi speaking people start learning one of the south indian languages, it is not going to happen.

The Hindi/Punjabi rendition is "Paani peeyo, ji".

"Paani peeyo, ji" is is an incorrect and unnecessary Punjabization of Hindi/Urdu.

Hindi:'Paani pee lo'
Urdu: 'Paani pee leejiya'

Note that I am not including African-Americans who still spoke their native African language or the Native Americans, b/c they were not considered part of the US nation.

PS, I agree with you completely about Hindi. One thing though...African-Americans did not retain African languages for any appreciable length of time...they were drawn from various linguistic groups from Western Africa, and deliberately kept apart from others speaking their own languages, so as to minimize the risk of planning a rebellion. From what I've read, there were a few 2nd gen people (this would have been in the 1700s) who knew some of their (usually) mother's language, but that's it. Furthermore, most African traditions and cultural aspects were forbidden outright. So those things went underground, and re-emerged in different, transformed ways, especially in African American musical forms like jazz and blues. Fascinating stuff.

But till the day hindi speaking people start learning one of the south indian languages, it is not going to happen.

Hindi:'Paani pee lo' Urdu: 'Paani pee leejiya'

One thing though...African-Americans did not retain African languages for any appreciable length of time...

I am *gasp* kunta...kinte..

ACD,

Urdu: 'Paani pee leejiya'

Surely you mean "Paani Pee Leejiye"

Also isn't that the formal Hindi and not just Urdu
Typo?

aren't these just a different form of the same word - lo (tum) vs lijiye (aap)? (for non-hindi speakers, it's just a grammatical question i am asking) or is there something i am missing that distinguishes the urdu from the hindi here?

You are correct.

and is ji really more a punjabi word?

I think so. Its not used in Urdu.

Surely you mean "Paani Pee Leejiye"

Yes. My bad! Leejiya makes no sense. It was a typo.

i think hindi types in english letters beter than tamil. i mean. getting from the english letters in tamil to the pronounciation is hard.

Al Chutiya, I was just using Camille's phrase as a talking point. By the way, in Hindi you can say 'paani pee leejiye' too (polite form) just as in Urdu you can 'paani pee lo' as well...although I grant you that in Urdu culture, the emphasis is on always being polite, even to children.

"Ji" is used in Hindi a lot, for respect. Al Chutiya, is it never used in Urdu?

Al Chutiya, I was just using Camille's phrase as a talking point.

I know. I am a vigilante against creeping Punjabization of Urdu/Hindi :) In Pakistan, the process is almost complete. Hindi in India is still relatively free of being Punjabized. We have to be alert at all times ;)

Btw, did you get my second email? I apologized to you in the email for unfairly attacking you a week back.

i think hindi types in english letters beter than tamil. i mean. getting from the english letters in tamil to the pronounciation is hard.

btw, while i have some hindi speakers at attention - lijiyega - does it belong distinctly to either hindi or urdu?

As an aside:

I personally find Urdu so much more expressive than Hindi. I mean who can imagine Jagjit Singh singing Mirza Ghalib ghazals in any other language ."Nazaakat","Adaa","Muskaan", "Tehzeeb", "Fizaa" - these are words that lose all subtlety in translation to Hindi or English.

"Ji" is used in Hindi a lot, for respect. Al Chutiya, is it never used in Urdu?

Its used by Pakistani Urdu speakers quite frequently now or at least the ones who are in North America.
I dont believe Indian Urdu speakers use 'ji' outside 'ji' as in 'yes' or 'haan'.

But till the day hindi speaking people start learning one of the south indian languages, it is not going to happen.

And yeah, in Chennai , the cabbies do not even take give you or charge quaraple (Even if you speak English!!), if you do not speak Tamil.

I know. I am a vigilante against creeping Punjabization of Urdu/Hindi :) In Pakistan, the process is almost complete. Hindi in India is still relatively free of being Punjabized. We have to be alert at all times ;)

Yeah, you're right! Although Urdu has done a lot of damage to Punjabi in Pakistan too!

Btw, did you get my second email? I apologized to you in the email for unfairly attacking you a week back.

No worries. I will check my email later. Thanks.

PS@361, you wrote:

"If you want to compare English-speaking United States - well when the US was created as a nation some 200+ years ago, everyone spoke English."

Actually, there were many debates and arguments about what the language of the US should be at inception. The population had German, French, Dutch, and English speakers. If I recall correctly, the majority of the population spoke German. But the drafters of the Constitution were English speakers, and they made English the national language.

I personally find Urdu so much more expressive than Hindi. I mean who can imagine Jagjit Singh singing Mirza Ghalib ghazals in any other language ."Nazaakat","Adaa","Muskaan", "Tehzeeb", "Fizaa" - these are words that lose all subtlety in translation to Hindi or English.

Those are all basically Persian words (some of them might have Arabic origins, I'm not sure). Anyway, Urdu is very expressive for what it's trying to say...it reflects the culture of the Urdu-speaking people beautifully. And it's very Indian too. I'm not sure you can say it's 'more expressive' IN GENERAL than Hindi or other languages. Ghazals, other Urdu poetry, the best Bollywood songs of the past, they are all in Urdu. But it's very culture-specific. You can't make a good garba song in Urdu. Some would say Kavaali is not well suited to Urdu either (most having been in Sindhi or Punjabi for centuries). If you try to translate a Punjabi song into Hindi, it sounds horrible. Similarly, if you translate an Urdu song (let's say 'Kabhi kabhi') into Punjabi, it sounds even worse. But they're all very expressive languages in their own way...they excel at expressing their particular culture.

But the drafters of the Constitution were English speakers, and they made English the national language.

english is not the naitonal language of the united states. the US does not have a national language. this was done intentionally.

Al Chutiya, I never got your 2nd email.

But the change doesn't have to be bad...we gain a lot, I suppose with English. Culture changes and this time, the change is not happening by force or violence, unless some people think globalization is a type of violence. I remember an essay Amartya Sen wrote about not being afraid of cultural change - no need to "preserve" it. I'm starting to think the Malayalam will go the way of Sanskrit in 100 years, and will be replaced by English as Kerala's language. If you speak English in Kerala, I'd say you can get along fine.

PS, you are correct. Languages, cultures, societies are not static. But when we lose a language (e.g. Punjabi, Malayalam), we also lose a whole body of literature (fiction, non-fiction) and movies that were expressed in that language. I think that a translation can never do justice to the original language in which the book was written. Of course, one can learn only so many languages in a life-time, and translation is the practical compromise we make. I understand Amartya Sen's point about preserving something out of fear of change, but one can also preserve certain aspects so as to be in touch with the literature while also welcoming change - it's not an either-or situation. But I also see many people (desis and non-desis) making serious attempts to learn regional Indian languages, so there's hope. :)

and is ji really more a punjabi word?

I think so. Its not used in Urdu.

It is used in Urdu, but in a slightly different way. More to signal assent in a respectful way than as an honorific suffix - for example, 'Ji, Haan'. Or just 'Ji' - meaning, Yes.

Punjabis use 'Ji' as in 'Chachaji' but in Urdu it might be 'Chacha mian' or 'Bade chacha or chotay chacha' etc :)

That's how democracy works, what majority of voters want, that's what they get.

It is disturbing to see the above. What you are talking about is majorityism---like in China. Han Chinese, all good. Everyone else, become Han Chinese or you don't count. Democracy involves a fair bit of compromise---in fact imo a very important part of democracy in India is the "coalition" politics which does give everyone leverage to negotiate.

Right, in Bangalore, Hindi suffice (along with English). No need of any South Indian languages. If I remember my geography lessons correctly, Bangalore is in the South.

The problem with this attitude: B'lore will go the way of TN if you go ahead think this way. There is a lot of unprecedented resentment against the condescending attitude of North Indians against Kannada, and statements like this will only amplify it. I am not speaking of extreme language freaks, but an average person on the street doesn't like your attitude.

First, as far as "national language" or "importance" goes, Kannada (and all the other 3 south indian languages) generates comparable literature with Hindi with a population that is a fourth of the Hindi native speakers.

Second, this resentment is a sign of a problem---Bangalore has had and nurtured large Tamil, Telugu and Malayalam speaking populations for a long time. It is the first time language is becoming a popular issue in Bangalore. No one wants to see Kannada go the way of Marathi in Mumbai.

No one wants to see Kannada go the way of Marathi in Mumbai.

what happened?

No one wants to see Kannada go the way of Marathi in Mumbai. what happened?

My guess is, it was swallowed up by Hindi/English as tons of non-Marathi speakers descended onto it. Kannada's risk is more so for English though, because of IT sector.

Maybe thats why some peeps are tryin to keep it real with 'Bengaluru'

most of my friends that "lived in bangalore for a few years" dont know a word of kannada...after living there for a few years.

teach them this one 'hube'

on the other hand, what happens in mumbai is that if you are a local marathi speaker---especially if you are not a hindi speaker, you encounter a fair amount of bias and prejudice.

Interesting. On what basis? Do non marathi speakers make up the leadership?

Right, in Bangalore, Hindi suffice (along with English). No need of any South Indian languages. If I remember my geography lessons correctly, Bangalore is in the South.

Kannada (and all the other 3 south indian languages) generates comparable literature with Hindi with a population that is a fourth of the Hindi native speakers

puli, even though it is in maharashtra, in bombay, marathi has been edged out by the other languages that predominate business, namely gujarati, hindi, and english. i think this is mostly because of bombay's position as a cosmopolitan business centre. so even though marathi still is spoken in bombay, it is not by a majority (maybe not even by a plurality?), and if hindi is known, marathi is pretty much not needed in most situations. the biggest marathi-speaking city is pune, where hindi is oftentimes not welcome. but as i am not from bombay, the natives should jump in and correct me.

No one wants to see Kannada go the way of Marathi in Mumbai. what happened?

My guess is, it was swallowed up by Hindi/English as tons of non-Marathi speakers descended onto it. Kannada's risk is more so for English though, because of IT sector.

sm intern: the last comment has completely screwed up formatting---could you delete it?

The South is "conservative" when it comes to drinking and dancing but progressive when it comes to women's/lower caste/minority rights in general.Humour based on physical/economic/social features is also considered crude, maybe this is because the populace (As echoedabove) considers itself ugly on average.

Now all these adjectives are relative to the North.

considers itself ugly on average.

really? most of the steriotype as ugly ive heard comes from non-south indians. most of the south indians i know dont consider south indian ugly...

Many "Telugu" actresses are in fact Punjabi these days. Some examples are Bhumika Chawla, Simmi. When they have a "launch" press conference, some of them cannot even speak Hindi, leave alone Telugu. Komalini Mukherjee is another example of a non telugu Telugu actress. I'm presuming that this phenomenon is because of a preference for fair skin and "northern features".

Some of the most popular ones are from other southern states, actually, specifically Tamil Nadu. Check out Trisha and Shriya. Genelia, who is of Goan descent, is also a popular one (and a total cutie pie and great actress to boot... yes and Indian actress who is actually in the biz to act! not to cause drama!) The Tamil ones are very fair, but I'm surprised that Genelia is as popular as she is honestly (not that I mind... I'm just saying objectively, she's darker-skinned than most of the other actresses).

Bhumika is Punjabi? Seriously? Huh. I always assumed she was Tamil or something because of her darker skin (I guess if I had known her last name was 'Chawla,' that would have tipped me off).

I asked my parents why not a single actress in Telugu movies is Telugu (seriously, I went on a Telugu movie-watching spree with my parents this summer, and not a single one of the actresses was of Telugu descent), and they said it's because people think Telugu girls are ugly. Eep. Personally I think it's because they're all too busy studying computer engineering. :P

I personally find it offensive as a woman-- basically what it signifies is that it only matters what the women look like, not what they say or think or anything like that. Of course we all knew that about Indian cinema though; at least Bollywood has more drama!!` centered around the actresses though.

I just think it's ridiculous that some actresses basically spend their whole lives acting without speaking. C'mon, Siddharth learned Telugu in two weeks for his first Telugu movie and it became a hit and now he's singing songs in Telugu dammit... surely the women can keep up with that?

I go to lunch, and the mutineers go crazy! Firstly, Punjabi-haters, calm down. I think it is silly to rail against the "Punjabization" of Urdu or whatever. You could also argue that Pakistani Urdu has been Arabicized and Persian-icized to give it a more distinct identity from Punjabi. Does it matter? Only in terms of the geopolitical history that leads up to that. Also, Punjabi is more widely spoken than Urdu in Pakistan, and is, in my opinion, a more indigenous language. I don't say that to argue that one is more or less authentic, but just to say that there's a difference between what you speak "on the street" and what you speak formally.

Also, with respect to the "better expression of sentiment" found in Urdu, I think you could argue that this is because words/ideas are borrowed from Farsi, which is what a great deal of literature and poetry was originally composed in throughout Punjab (and if not Farsi, then in Urdu). Punjabi is often seen as a "low" language, or at least described this way.

Urdu: 'Paani pee leejiya'

And lastly, "ji" is just an honorific in Punjabi, although it's hardly being used as an honorific when you say: "Ji ayaa noo."

See, I don't think this is funny, I think this is sad. And I've sometimes heard the even more extreme version, which is "water drink karo, ji". I think it's sad because it's a total, unnecessary degradation.

Well "Hindi" is national language. Not a language of a state. That's how democracy works, what majority of voters want, that's what they get. When Hispanics become majority here, most of out grandchildren will be speaking fluent Spanish.

The period of India's creation also was a time, when governments were trying to uphold human rights. When India was formed, the majority of Indians, didn't speak Hindi (unlike the US nation-state was created by only English-speakers)...the majority spoke other languages.Himanshu, I think PS responded really well. Hindi is NOT the majority language, nor was it at Independence. To prioritize Hindi as the "state language" was inherently divisive. Again, it is not the language itself that is a problem, it's giving that language primacy over all others, and then also refusing to teach the other language forms. You mentioned you were taught Hindi, English, and Oriya. That is NOT the case for many of the folks born post-Independence.

One thing though...African-Americans did not retain African languages for any appreciable length of time...they were drawn from various linguistic groups from Western Africa, and deliberately kept apart from others speaking their own languages, so as to minimize the risk of planning a rebellion

maybe this is because the populace (As echoedabove) considers itself ugly on average.

Huh? While individuals may be self-deprecating (or not), it's hardly fair to say the same thing about an entire population.

what happens in mumbai is that if you are a local marathi speaker---especially if you are not a hindi speaker, you encounter a fair amount of bias and prejudice.

Bhumika is Punjabi? Seriously? Huh. I always assumed she was Tamil or something because of her darker skin

my population thinks my population is beautiful. i define my population as narsicists.

The South is "conservative" when it comes to drinking and dancing but progressive when it comes to women's/lower caste/minority rights in general.Humour based on physical/economic/social features is also considered crude, maybe this is because the populace (As echoedabove) considers itself ugly on average.

Now all these adjectives are relative to the North.

Umm.. what? I'm trying to make sense of that, but it's not clicking. I don't know how prevalent crude 'humor based on physical/economic/social features' is in northern culture, but I'm pretty sure it at least EXISTS in the south. Ask my mother to tell about what people from the different districts of Andhra Pradesh are like sometime.

And in my experience, people who actually live in India don't care much for comparing their looks with north Indians. They're too busy going on with their daily lives, in which they're surrounded by people like them. It's usually the ABCDs (I'm sorry, the C is just totally perfect for this occasion) who feel that way because they want to fit in with the 'cool' (LOL) brown clique in college. Light skin being praised in southern India may be partly due to an inferiority complex to northerners, but even if north India up and disappeared, light skin would still be prized above other hues.

most of my friends that "lived in bangalore for a few years" dont know a word of kannada...after living there for a few years.

I knew people who grew up in b'lore and didn't know kannada!

thast whack. dont you automatically pick up the language of a place by living there?

Bhumika is Punjabi? Seriously? Huh. I always assumed she was Tamil or something because of her darker skin

Sigh. There are quite a few "dark" Punjabis out there. I think the skin color as "regional barometer" is, on average, totally ridiculous.

ah sorry camille. I know that, it's just that she has acted in so many south Indian movies I would actually expect her to be from the region. And I guess it would make more sense logically if we're saying that south Indian cinema wants actresses from the north because they are lighter-skinned, that they actually are. But I guess she is an exception.

who feel that way because they want to fit in with the 'cool' (LOL) brown clique in college.

i didnt even know there was a "cool" brown clique in college. most of the brown cliques were kind of geeky science/business/pre-med types back in my day...

Some posters are taking offence of my defence of Hindi (I am not a native Hindi speaker). I apologize for it.

My point is simply this. Tell me another successful nation state which has progressed with 18+ different languages. It's real difficult to achieve some sort of national unity and a feeling for nation without something as basic as language in common.
India is still a young country, so future generations need to nurture our nation, and be extra cautious that India do not go the way of Balkans.
(like TN for Tamils, Karnataka for Kannadigas,WB for Bengalis and so on).

I do not want India to bifurcate into 15 different countries, like the ertswhile Soviet Union.

In fact, a great inter-mingling/inter-regional marriages among all communities is desirable for India.

ah sorry camille. I know that, it's just that she has acted in so many south Indian movies I would actually expect her to be from the region. And I guess it would make more sense logically if we're saying that south Indian cinema wants actresses from the north because they are lighter-skinned, that they actually are. But I guess she is an exception.

My point is simply this. Tell me another successful nation state which has progressed with 18+ different languages. It's real difficult to achieve some sort of national unity and a feeling for nation without something as basic as language in common.

well.....saying that a way to keep a country together is to cram one groups language and culture down other peoples throats seems off

By the way, I have NEVER heard Marathi spoken

it is a wonderful-sounding language. very sweet, and simultaneously refined and casual. it's actually my favourite-sounding desi language.

Interesting. On what basis? Do non marathi speakers make up the leadership?

the state govt depends on the whole state, not just mumbai, so i don't think so.

but representatives from mumbai are not necessarily local people, though that is not entirely the issue here. the crux of the problem is that people perceive that the local language gets step motherly treatment. to some extent it is also justified, people actually find it hard to get by knowing just marathi (and not hindi as well) in their day to day life.

Camille,

I am not sure if Marathi speakers are really pushed onto the outskirts of society, marathi is still widely used in Bombay and especially in government offices. People of Maharashtrian origin are 42% of Bombay's population and most of the senior people in civic administration are maharashtrians. Marathi literature and theater are thriving so I am not sure if it is accurate to say that marathi speakers are relegated to outskirts of society.

it is a wonderful-sounding language. very sweet, and simultaneously refined and casual. it's actually my favourite-sounding desi language.

Its aight. Malayalam is mine. It takes skill to speak that language, hell just to even say the name.

they said it's because people think Telugu girls are ugly

Huh? Then how come:
- Jaya Prada
- Sridevi
-Farah
- Tabu
Made it so big in Hindi cinema?

Malayalam

1 long @ss palendrome...

i didnt even know there was a "cool" brown clique in college. most of the brown cliques were kind of geeky science/business/pre-med types back in my day...

That's what the 'LOL' was for. :P
But really, some of 'em do know how to party.

My point is simply this. Tell me another successful nation state which has progressed with 18+ different languages. It's real difficult to achieve some sort of national unity and a feeling for nation without something as basic as language in common. India is still a young country, so future generations need to nurture our nation, and be extra cautious that India do not go the way of Balkans. (like TN for Tamils, Karnataka for Kannadigas,WB for Bengalis and so on).

I would argue that India actually isn't a successful nation-state, but one that has only managed to barely stay together so far, if that. C'mon, second-gens are semi-jokingly talking about the confederate south on this board! States themselves cannot stay together. India's history necessarily includes the splitting-off of Pakistan and Bangladesh. And my brother would argue (I'm not sure how much I would agree with this) that what has kept India together is religion (Hinduism). "As soon as a state or area becomes majority non-Hindu, it develops a strong sense of regional identity and wants to secede." I know this is a very touchy issue, so I just want to clarify that I don't entirely agree with it, though historically there is obviously basis for it.

thast whack. dont you automatically pick up the language of a place by living there?

I'm starting to think the Malayalam will go the way of Sanskrit in 100 years, and will be replaced by English as Kerala's language.

And when that happens, people will suddenly wake up, and desperately try to revive Malayalam. Just like they're trying (unsuccessfully) to do with Irish in Ireland. They even have Irish-medium schools in some areas, trying to raise kids speaking Irish as their first language from day one...with mixed results. I can imagine in India in the distant future, the best and most 'posh' schools will boast of being at least partially 'Hindi-medium' or 'Tamil-medium'...as upper class people will finally want to revive these languages. Once everyone speaks English, then speaking an Indian language will become the preserve of the rich class, and the mark of an excellent, private education and high social status!

- Tabu

i always thought she was well known for her acting, as opposed to her looks...

A quick comment about Mumbai/Bombay. Marathi speakers were never a majority in Mumbai...never ever historically. In fact for a long time it was the anti-marathi place...again historically (it was initially designed by the British to compete with Surat, which was the biggest port in Gujsrat). Once the East India Company took over, Bombay flourished; many Surti merchants (the one's that survived the British onslaught) moved to Bombay and joined the Parsis and the British, who then drew labor from all over the country. In fact you can trace the fall of Surat and the concomitant rise of Bombay very clearly beginning with the second Anglo-Maratha war (I think in the mid-eighteenth century if memory serves me right).

kannada interactions are done with the help of your maid.

ahh...im not nearly che-che enough for that...

My point is simply this. Tell me another successful nation state which has progressed with 18+ different languages. It's real difficult to achieve some sort of national unity and a feeling for nation without something as basic as language in common.

it is a wonderful-sounding language. very sweet, and simultaneously refined and casual. it's actually my favourite-sounding desi language.

brown, thanks for the clarification. I don't know, myself, hence the question, but I appreciate the perspective.

well.....saying that a way to keep a country together is to cram one groups language and culture down other peoples throats seems off

HMF, apologies, and no offence meant. malayalam is actually my second-favourite sounding desi language. and i like its intonations, the cadence. it helps that i am also far more able to understand it than marathi. honestly, i found marathi extremely hard to follow, and i generally have a good ear for languages. i suppose it depends on your other linguistic influences as well.

Just like Native Americans/African Americans were rammed with English downt their throats in United States... What's the difference?

there is no difference. thats my point....it is not a good thing.

Just like Native Americans/African Americans were rammed with English downt their throats in United States... What's the difference?

why replicate an american mistake in an indian context?

always thought she was well known for her acting, as opposed to her looks...

Empirical observation in any case suggests that cine stars have to be easy on the eye whether Hindi/Telugu/ Tamil /Hollywood/wherever

My point is simply this. Tell me another successful nation state which has progressed with 18+ different languages.

Does anyone know anything about how this issue has been dealt with in Mexico? They've got something like 62 languages there, and there are lots of people who don't know Spanish or speak it as a second language. At my job (I work for a translation firm) Mixteco in particular comes up a lot, but I just don't know enough about Mexican history/politics to compare it with India...

make it big in Hindi cinema

not sure she made it that big in cinema relative to her (better than most) acting ability. i think thats precisely because she doesnt look like some amazing surgically altered s*xpot.

- Jaya Prada - Sridevi -Farah - Tabu

Sridevi's origin may be Telugu, but she was raised in TN. Perhaps there's something different in the drinking water there that encourages girls to get into the movie biz?

As for Tabu, I wonder if she speaks Telugu, actually, since she is part of the Hyderabadi Muslim community, many of whom only speak Urdu and do not speak Telugu. She probably does, though, because she's actually an actress who's in the biz to act.

Ok, um, who the heck is Farah?

I was talking about none of the actresses in Telugu films being Telugu, not about the success of Telugu actresses in Hindi cinema. Yes, there are a lot of southern Indian actresses who are successful up north, but even among them, most are Tamil, and if they are Telugu, they are the exceptions.

#429, I think there are many dialects of (native) indian languages in Mexico. India on the other hand has 18+ "official" languages. If you count all languages and dialects it goes up to more than a thousand in India.

Just like Native Americans/African Americans were rammed with English downt their throats in United States... What's the difference?

Not if your circle of friends comprises of english and hindi speakers, if your school does not have kannada courses and all necessary kannada interactions are done with the help of your maid.

Totally off topic, I've always thought it would be cool to learn Cajun, but it's only taught at LSU :(

PS, you are correct. Languages, cultures, societies are not static. But when we lose a language (e.g. Punjabi, Malayalam), we also lose a whole body of literature (fiction, non-fiction) and movies that were expressed in that language. I think that a translation can never do justice to the original language in which the book was written.

Oh you are so right about this. There is so much Malayalam literature that when I hear my dad discuss sounds completely foreign to me. How sad that all this is could be lost or underappreciated in the almost need to acquire good English.

I understand Amartya Sen's point about preserving something out of fear of change, but one can also preserve certain aspects so as to be in touch with the literature while also welcoming change - it's not an either-or situation. But I also see many people (desis and non-desis) making serious attempts to learn regional Indian languages, so there's hope. :)

I love what you said here. Yes, I think such a rich cultural, literary tradition should be preserved since it is not continued in the same vein. Hopefully Malayalees, even with their language changes, will study old Malayalam literature like we study Shakespeare now.

Aren’t Marathi speakers kind of pushed onto the outskirts of society? Are you seen as “ignorant” if you speak Marathi? (i.e. not worldly enough to speak Hindi/Gujarati/English)?

By the way, I have NEVER heard Marathi spoken, which I think is a shame.

I would argue that India actually isn't a successful nation-state, but one that has only managed to barely stay together so far, if that. C'mon, second-gens are semi-jokingly talking about the confederate south on this board!

but not dbds. that should give you a hint. it is not an accident that "confederate south india" is just for abd's. there are very strong economic, political and demographic compulsions that keep the south within india. india has been progressively integrating remarkably well over the last 60 years. practically every family that has migrated has also crossed state borders, and economic compulsions today dictate cross-fertilization that centuries before could not bring about.

there are issues about language, regionalism etc., but they are just that---periods of self correction that india is fairly good at. there are bigger problems in the north east and kashmir to be sure, but i would hardly call india as "barely" sticking together. "nationality" in india may be unfamiliar to the western hemisphere (no common language, culture, religion, history, *lot* of bickering), doesn't mean it isn't valid.

Just like Native Americans/African Americans were rammed with English downt their throats in United States... What's the difference?

And most Native American languages are dead or endangered now, and their people were slaughtered in a massive genocide and their cultures obliterated one by one. I mean, how is it unreasonable for anyone whose language is being threatened to look at that example and not feel fear?

Humour based on physical/economic/social features is also considered crude, maybe this is because the populace (As echoedabove) considers itself ugly on average.

Didn't we have a huge discussion on the caste comedy in Tamil movies....I don't see this in Malayalam movies, but I was told its prevalent in the rest of India but not in Kerala.

Ok, um, who the heck is Farah?

Tabu's elder sister who also acted in a lot of forgettable teeny bopper Hindi Cinema but was very good looking ( she comes in TV serials now,I think!)

Agreed you are probably speaking of Telugu cinema of which I know not much.But I always admired women from Andhra as I think they are really good looking

I would consider Tabu ( muslim or not) to be definitely part of Telugu speaking people

It's real difficult to achieve some sort of national unity and a feeling for nation without something as basic as language in common.

Himanshu, I have to disagree. As a Hindi-speaking person who grew up in the north, I have no desire to force people in the south (or anywhere else) to learn Hindi and will oppose any attempts by the government. And, I don't think everyone speaking Hindi would lead to "some sort of national unity." That's what happens in dictatorships, not in democracies.

does anyone else see a giant grey square covering up comments 281-283, or is it just me?

why the heck do people get so worked up about language? i mean...its a tool for effective communication. if i could speak hindi, french, italian, chineese etc...i would be all over that..

i realize i'm extremely late to this east coast/non-vacationer's party, but since i complained about the language issue earlier, i thought i'd expand a bit. just so we're clear, i actually speak 6 languages with varying competency -- i would say i'm fluent in 3, and can "get by" in the others, i.e. travel without making a fool of myself. i love learning languages, pick them up easily, and prefer to converse in the local language(s) when i'm travelling. which is why, last year, i started to learn hindi, after my first trip to north india proved to be somewhat stressful on account of having zero hindi skills. my mother's knowledge of devanagari, her remnants of 9th grade hindi, and wild hand gestures are what got us by. i was frankly surprised to find english was of almost no help at all. the language barrier, along with the much more open harassment of women, had me feeling disoriented and longing for the south, where at least i am equipped to tell of lecherous men in a couple languages. but i digress. i have no problem learning hindi, or with hindi being taught in schools (note previous love of languages). my dad is familiar with ~7 indian languages, my mom can scrape by in most south indian languages, and some of my aunts, who never completed college, are fluent in tamil, kannada, telegu, hindi, and marathi. they just picked it up because of moving around or interacting with local other-language speakers. so i'm clearly surrounded by people who do value language as a communication tool, and are not stuck in some crazy "tamil only" world (and i do actually know plenty of those types). my "issue" with hindi is the assumption made on the part of strangers that i speak hindi. rarely do people ask what language i speak; they just jump in at top-speed hindi, and it honestly takes me a considerable amount of effort to convince them that i do not speak hindi (ok, now i do speak a bit, but whatever). it's irritating that they take our common indian-ness as an invitation to converse with me (usually asking all sorts of inappropriate personal questions), but by wildly attempting to coax hindi out of me, they are implicitly communicating that indian = hindi-speaking. sometimes, depending on age, you can add bollywood-loving to that as well. and i'll be honest -- for someone who comes from a region with extremely rich linguistic and cultural history, i find myself asking what kind of moron has never even heard of tamil or can't identify madras (chennai, excuse me) on a map. so my issue, really, is not with hindi or the promotion of hindi itself, but with ignorant people.

Empirical observation in any case suggests that cine stars have to be easy on the eye whether Hindi/Telugu/ Tamil /Hollywood/wherever

Just because this was fun.

Nala,

AARGH!
Who was # 2 and # 5 ?

And do you really think that Kareena and Abhishek are not easy on the eye? :-)

now...this is only tangentially unrelated...but...

how common is "the casting couch" in south indian cinema? Does that influence the look of actresses?

HMF, apologies, and no offence meant.

Apologies for what?

PindA, I need to know what Im dealing with here. Keeping in line with the linguistic theme.. What language did uncle owen want threepio to speak before he purchased him ?

Kareena

i think kapoor grls are ugly. i think peopoe like them because they have light skin and the last name "kapoor".

What language did uncle owen want threepio to speak before he purchased him ?

moisture evaporator language.

And when that happens, people will suddenly wake up, and desperately try to revive Malayalam. Just like they're trying (unsuccessfully) to do with Irish in Ireland. They even have Irish-medium schools in some areas, trying to raise kids speaking Irish as their first language from day one...with mixed results.

Yes, I've spent a lot of time in Ireland and it is something that the Irish government is trying to resuscitate. Grants for anything created in Irish Gaelic is very availabe, street and city signs are in English and Irish Gaelic. So interesting for me to hear old irishmen speak it. But there is a huge difference between what happened in Ireland and their loss of Irish and Kerala. Irish was violently taken away from the people by the British. The change in Kerala is slowly happening, mostly b/c of probably English dominance in a globalized world, the access to high education levels of most Malayalees also gives them the opportunity and ambition to study outside of India, and of course being part of a country that doesn't operate on one dominant South Asian language also encourages English, since throughout India, I think English is spoken.

i think kapoor grls are ugly. i think peopoe like them because they have light skin and the last name "kapoor".

Really? I would give a limb to look like any of them :-)

One man's food is another man's poison

So India should adopt a policy of genocide and enslavement? I really don't think this logic makes sense, sorry.

Wouldn't it be great when we can introduce ourselves just as "an Indian", at least when outside India, rather than from XYZ state?
Balkanization of India should be prevented and all Indians must and should work towards preserving it.

Does anyone know anything about how this issue has been dealt with in Mexico? They've got something like 62 languages there, and there are lots of people who don't know Spanish or speak it as a second language.

Really? I would give a limb to look like any of them :-)

dont worry. i think i'd like you better than a 1 armed kapoor sister...

"moisture evaporator language."

That's true. I was thinking of Bocce (or Bacce) but owen was looking for moisture evap language too. Ok, that is all.

That's true. I was thinking of Bocce (or Bacce) but owen was looking for moisture evap language too. Ok, that is all.

I meant successful nation

Most of these 'successful' nations you have in mind, have reached this success through less than stellar means: genocide, slavery, and colonization. Having a unified language comes up, say a distant 7th place

Wouldn't it be great when we can introduce ourselves just as "an Indian", at least when outside India, rather than from XYZ state? Balkanization of India should be prevented and all Indians must and should work towards preserving it.

I think it's disingenuous to pretend that English fluency among African Americans and Native Americans is not somehow tied to the imperialist and genocidal policies of the U.S. government and its settler population. If that is how India wants to go about forcing "Hindi" on the rest of the population, then no wonder there is resistance. The fact of the matter is that India has a different formative history. In my opinion, it is more like Europe (if Europe were a single country) than it is like the U.S. Similarly, I don't think we should be taking our "nation-building" cues from the U.S.'s exploits in the 1500-1800s (+ Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines in the 1900s). I think it's possible to balance regional identity with a national civic identity. Isn't that what we theoretically strive for, at any rate? I understand the call for a language that can be commonly spoken, but perhaps Hindi is not that language.

Does anyone know anything about how this issue has been dealt with in Mexico? They've got something like 62 languages there, and there are lots of people who don't know Spanish or speak it as a second language.

Another thing to chew on, on the eve of India's 60th birthday, that sqare mile area of India is bigger than all countries of Western Europe. Need I say anything about population :-) It is a historical anomaly that India is one nation. (Infact its more to the political vision of its founders that is unique, anywhere in the world)

Shodhan # 434

Nowadays saying that word in wrong neighbourhood could earn you a face full of fists

Does that mean you do not like being called a Western Ghat?

:-)

Marathi literature and theater is quite robust.

perhaps Hindi is not that language.

esperanto.

India is like Europe, where every small country has their language. French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese etc.

Puli, I think it might be moisture evaporation language.

;)

Puli, I think it might be moisture evaporation language.

;)

grls that know starwars...ive only met one of those...

#440 milli
it's irritating that they take our common indian-ness as an invitation to converse with me (usually asking all sorts of inappropriate personal questions), but by wildly attempting to coax hindi out of me, they are implicitly communicating that indian = hindi-speaking.

--> Well put.

I am bad at languages(I have made my peace with tamil after generally murdering it while growing up. Hindi is purely a survival tool for me. I dont feel as comfortable with it but I treat it at arm's length which is a far cry from my book burning days) so I have had to keep my language learning at a minimum.

This matter might have been addressed earlier on this site but does the name milli stand for measure of alcohol or something else ?

but these days, tamilians are not as anti-hindi

Have not read all the comments so I am not sure how the tamil-anti-hindi thing started...but my family is definitely not anti-hindi. We are tam brams who have been living in Bombay for two and a half generations. My cousins know bambaiyya hindi and marathi better than tamil. Hell, as a little kid I didn't know that my particular brand of tamil actually mixed in a lot of hindi words, I thought that was the way everyone spoke. It wasn't until later I found out that there are parts of TN where they don't.

milli, I totally agree, and this is what I was trying to get at in my previous comment. Growing up in the southwest, there weren't enough desi families from the same region, let alone same religion, to get all divisive. My family only became more (Indo-Punjabi)-centric when we moved to an area infested with desis.

Milli/Camille, I kind of went through the same thing. I would say my parents still (or at least my dad) have an affinity for mumbaikars, especially southies from there. It's wierd but just scanning some of the comments I wonder what my tamilian parents went through going to hindi/english schools in the city back in the day. i wonder if they were ridiculed for the typical 'madraasi' stereotypes. But I have to say I have heard random comments made by them about their friends who actually grew up in madras...although most of them are made in complete jest, after all that is where we come from originally.

This matter might have been addressed earlier on this site but does the name milli stand for measure of alcohol or something else ?

oh ... well, the very first time i commented on this site, i had no intention of ever being a regular commenter or anything (nor did i understand that once i picked a handle, i'd pretty much have to stick with it). i was watching VH1 at the time, and they were playing a documentary about milli vanilli. soooo ... the rest is history! i have been dreaming up a "milli fka ____" eventually transitiong to "_____" for awhile, but i just don't know how to fill in the blank yet. :)

simple. And when a half-white commenter responds with an "ouch", it's time to step in. I am not trying to have a fight with you or take your words out of context, nor am I accusing you of anything. I'm just trying to make sure that this conversation can continue, the way it should-- in a civil fashion.

SM Intern: Okay. But I wasn't hating on half-whites. I was suggesting that some of the caste-pure would have that reaction to an intermarriage. And honestly, amongst the orthodox, a half-white would most clearly not be accepted as a Brahmin - as varna and jati are both based on birth. Anyone who suggests otherwise is lying. Some of the comments here, about starting "pan-brown" and moving to caste particularism, feeling "uncomfortable" of associating with others not one's own (jati) --is casteism in action, imo. There is a dark side to the "wee to be Jat/Iyengar me."

I think you also got mad about me using the word "authentic," but I clearly stated amongst Hindus South Indian expressions of Hinduism are considered more authentic to many Northerners. I didn't state non-Hindu Indians are inauthentic. Re, epithets: many Southerners do call North Indian Hindus, particularly Punjabis, "half-Muslims," and unfortunately, it is meant as an insult.

quoting myself: my "issue" with hindi is the assumption made on the part of strangers that i speak hindi.

and just in case it wasn't clear, i have never once been approached by anyone but hindi speakers in this manner. never has someone tried to figuratively beat telegu, bengali, or any other language out of me. what gives?

never has someone tried to figuratively beat telegu, bengali, or any other language out of me. what gives?

It's this attitude:

and she asked, "Do you know Hindi?" I said no, then she said, "If you study here, you should take Hindi, you can't really know anything about India without Hindi"

also, i think north indians are highly represented in the US. I didnt see very many south indians around growing up.

PindaUSA: but are those n. indians hindi speakers? or are they hindi speakers to the point where they give it primacy in their linguistic catalog?

PindaUSA: but are those n. indians hindi speakers? or are they hindi speakers to the point where they give it primacy in their linguistic catalog?

i think most north indian groups in the US speak hindi, so that people can speak to the other brown people around. therefore, people assume that brown = hindi speaker.

speaking of northern imports in the south indian film industry, someone forgot the hugely popular(pun intended) starlet of Vijaykanth and Sarathkumar movies 'Namitha'....

also, i think north indians are highly represented in the US. I didnt see very many south indians around growing up.

I know tons. Where did you grow up? There are enough Telugus alone around here (NY Tri-state area) for people to actually pay attention to caste and district distinctions, e.g. Telugus from Telangana have a separate unofficial group with their own activities, etc. Ridiculous, no?
And there are enough Telugus in North America for there to have been about 15,000 people at a recent convention for Telugu people in D.C. That's probably not even 25% of the Telugu population in North America.

But I think the reason it seems like there are fewer south indians is because the community doesn't have as strong a sense of identity because they tend not live in ethnic enclaves like Jackson Heights or Richmond Hill (and also because of aforementioned dumbass ABDs who don't know shit about their own history, and so south indian stuff just doesn't come across as fun/cool to them, which it really isn't, BUT only the hyper-type fun/cool stuff doesn't make up an entire culture)--it's the desi-American and Asian-American settlement pattern on a smaller scale. There are areas where there are tons and tons of all types of Indians spread out (Edison; Nassau County), and it is possible to have communities, but often they are not along the lines of what you will find in ethnic enclaves dominated by African-Americans or Latin American / West Indian immigrants.

Where did you grow up?

Oh, that's not to dispute that immigrants from northern India simply make up a larger percentage of desi immigrants in the U.S. (and no doubt the UK) though. But the rest of us definitely do exist.

Smaller cities just have an indian association. When numbers grow, they form tamil sangams, gujju associations, telugu asso etc... As number keep increasing you have telangana asso, tam bram asso etc.... It's just that smaller groups are easier to keep in touch with!

Does that mean you do not like being called a Western Ghat? :-)

even when I was in undergrad there was a lot of interest in Marathi theater with Pune hosting 2 or 3 big inter collegiate theater competitions that I used to attend....

Sarah, With all due respect, if we count that way, India probably has more than a 1000. The 18 langugages referred above are languages with script and literary tradition that goes back about a millenium if not more. India is like Europe, where every small country has their language. French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese etc. This is EXACTLY like Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, Tamil languages spoken in areas of India that are equivalent to their European counterparts. They are comparable in geographic area as well as population.

I'm aware of that, but the question was how other nation/states have negotiated having multilingual populations.

sarah, I meant successful nation, i.e. First world, something India should aspire to become within the next 50 years. I somehow don't think Indians want their nation to be known as "Mexico of Asia".

What's with all the Mexico-hating on these boards lately? Again, just wanted to throw out the question of how the first and second most linguistically diverse countries in the world differ on their handling on linguistic politics. Yeesh.

I think it's disingenuous to pretend that English fluency among African Americans and Native Americans is not somehow tied to the imperialist and genocidal policies of the U.S. government and its settler population. If that is how India wants to go about forcing "Hindi" on the rest of the population, then no wonder there is resistance.

Amen.

grls that know starwars...ive only met one of those...

yeah, we rock. :)

grls that know starwars...ive only met one of those.

Me too, problem was, she was a big fan of the crying game also.

she was a big fan of the crying game also.

is that a euphamism for her being a dude, or was it a grl that liked the movie "the crying game"?

Huh? Then how come: - Jaya Prada - Sridevi -Farah - Tabu Made it so big in Hindi cinema?

add Waheeda Rehman to that list. She is known for both acting and looks.

is that a euphamism for her being a dude, or was it a grl that liked the movie "the crying game"?

A little of both.

Oh, that's not to dispute that immigrants from northern India simply make up a larger percentage of desi immigrants in the U.S. (and no doubt the UK) though. But the rest of us definitely do exist.

By the way nala, I agree with this. Most Indians in the US hail from the north, but not all. I wonder what the educational/degree breakdown is however.

It's

telUgu, not telEgu
telUgu, not telEgu
telUgu, not telEgu
telUgu, not telEgu
telUgu, not telEgu
telUgu, not telEgu
telUgu, not telEgu

is that a euphamism for her being a dude, or was it a grl that liked the movie "the crying game"?
A little of both.

Must have been an interesting experience HMF.

What's with all the Mexico-hating on these boards lately?

As a DBD in desh, the only thing I knew about Mexico was the "Mexican wave".

the only thing I knew about Mexico was the "Mexican wave"

my plan ot sell mexican fast food to desis hits a snag...

the answer would be one of the developed countries (US/Australia/Japan/... ).

And you conveniently skirt around the fact that these countries achieved their 'developed' status out of the colonization, enslavement, and murder of lots of other human beings.

Smaller cities just have an indian association. When numbers grow, they form tamil sangams, gujju associations, telugu asso etc.

And you conveniently skirt around the fact that these countries achieved their 'developed' status out of the colonization, enslavement, and murder of lots of other human beings

read an interesting book on the subject called "Creating Modern Capitalism". I think the claim that "thats how these countries achieved their 'developed' status. is a bit far reaching. Yes, these countries did horrible things, but horrible things dont lead to development. The process of development just doesnt stop you from doing horrible things. Yes there were benefits to these horrible things, but the US isnt developed because we had slavery. A lot of places had slavery that are still backwards. The cause of development were many fold.

The cause

causes

Hell, let's go one step further. My college had an Asian association. The Asian association was supposedly inclusive of all people whose origin lay in the entire continent of Asia. But it didn't prove to be very practical to come up with common interests.

Reminds me of the college professor who discovered a theorem so general that it could not be applied to anything.

A developed India will be more like what European Union wants to be in the future, single currency, single defence force, single political entity with multiple and flourishing cultures / languages / food habits etc.. etc..

India should be compared with Europe and not a mono ethnic / mono lingual state.

It's

telUgu, not telEgu
telUgu, not telEgu
telUgu, not telEgu

I had to go back and check my post. Phew. I didn't make that mistake. ;)

A little of both.

Is that yet another euphemism? ;)

telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu

Does it matter when one is transliterating from a language that does not use a Roman alphabet?

471 · Puliogre in da USA
upstate ny. was considered upstate when i was growing up (high shcool in the mid-late 90's). now kind of a far out nyc suburb. there were only a few desi families when i was growing up. now there are hordes of desis.
_______________________________________

Poughkeepsie!

A developed India will be more like what European Union wants to be in the future,

I actually hope not! Judging by the attitudes of Europe towards Turkey and to a lesser extent towards Slavic countries, it sometimes seems to me like the EU is trying to be some sort of exclusivist club. I do agree with your larger point that India should not be compared with homogeneous countries.

Poughkeepsie!

we have a winner....

the attitudes of Europe towards Turkey

Correction: should read "the attitudes of the EU towards Turkey".

Poughkeepsie!

u from up there?

I actually hope not! Judging by the attitudes of Europe towards Turkey and to a lesser extent towards Slavic countries, it sometimes seems to me like the EU is trying to be some sort of exclusivist club.

the rich have always looked down on the poor...thats nothing new.

i find myself asking what kind of moron has never even heard of tamil or can't identify madras (chennai, excuse me)

milli, I like your sense of humor there. Made me laugh! :)

A developed India will be more like what European Union wants to be in the future, single currency, single defence force, single political entity

Does it matter when one is transliterating from a language that does not use a Roman alphabet?

Phonemes are independent of the script used by the source language.

Smaller cities just have an indian association. When numbers grow, they form tamil sangams, gujju associations, telugu asso etc.

Reminds me of an old joke in the des :

Question: What do you get when you have two (Insert community of choice here)* on a deserted island?
Answer: Three (community of choice) associations

* Select from:
- Bengalis
- Gujaratis
-Tamilians
-Punjabis
-Maharashtrians etc etc

telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu telUgu, not telEgu

Does it matter when one is transliterating from a language that does not use a Roman alphabet?

Yes, because the two are pronounced differently. And TelUgu would be the correct pronunciation, according to the Telugu alphabet.

And then there's the matter of showing respect.

Who made the E/U mix-up though? I checked my posts but there's no way I make that mistake :P

my plan ot sell mexican fast food to desis hits a snag...

It is also late by about 18-20 years.

In Madras, opposite Ethiraj College, there used to be a place called 'Taco Tavern.' Not a fast food joint. Apparently it was started by a TamBrahm return-from-the-US.

I was young and impressionable. I remember the place looked nice, different, sort of dark what with all the dark wooden interior decor, and dark bamboo chairs (?) etc. I was a fan of Louis L'Amour and Westerns in my mid teens, so I appreciatively eyed the wooden plates, bowls, cups, etc. How authentic the effect was, I may not have known. Neither would we (my friends and I) have known whether the (corn?) tacos and beans were really authentic or not (I can't remember what else was served. I am sure there was some rice).

But this we definitely understood to be bizarre: that the entire menu was vegetarian.

The place closed down too soon.

496 Puliogre in da USA
Poughkeepsie!
u from up there?
______________________

no--but have friends from there--ibm'ers

Yes, because the two are pronounced differently. And TelUgu would be the correct pronunciation, according to the Telugu alphabet.

Thank you. That was the clarification I was looking for.

the rich have always looked down on the poor...thats nothing new.

That may be true, but I suspect it's more than just that going on with EU/Turkey. Whatever objections to Turkey joining the EU (human rights, economic practices, political freedom, whatever else) seem to be quantities that *every* non-Muslim European country satisfies. I genuinely wonder whether the reasons offered are some EU politicians' unstated way of saying "You're the wrong religion, so you can't join".

I was young and impressionable. I remember the place looked nice, different, sort of dark what with all the dark wooden interior decor, and dark bamboo chairs (?) etc.

Malathi, the way you narrated that made me sort of steel myself for a harrowing account about how you were molested or something. I'm mighty relieved that it was just a restaurant description.

(Yes, the fact that I associate "I was young and impressionable" with misadventures reflects more about me).

Yes there were benefits to these horrible things, but the US isnt developed because we had slavery. A lot of places had slavery that are still backwards.

True. but take away those horrible things, and the other forces that did foment this development would have been severly impeded.

And it's not just slavery, I'd say, of the 3, colonization is the most influential on economic development.

Madras, opposite Ethiraj College, there used to be a place called 'Taco Tavern

Also a Casa Picola(?) opposite the Taj served MExican fast food as recently as 6 years ago ....

Also a Casa Picola(?) opposite the Taj served MExican fast food as recently as 6 years ago ....

Rings a bell. Was it on Khader Nawaz Khan Road?

A developed India will be more like what European Union wants to be in the future, single currency, single defence force, single political entity with multiple and flourishing cultures / languages / food habits etc.. etc..

While our democracy and unity in diversity are our great strengths, we must not allow it to become an excuse for not working together in the larger national interest.
On eve of 60th independence day, Indians should think of India first.

Edit. last sentence should be Indians should think of India first, ALWAYS (not just on Independence Day)

> Who made the E/U mix-up though? I checked my posts but there's no way I make that mistake :P

True :) but I think there were a couple telegu/telugu mix-ups up the thread.

Sorry if I went all psycho but it really annoys me whenever I see that mistake.

To make my comment at least somewhat on topic ;), I watched the video clip and..Hau, I do think it was a pretty well-done spoof of the Hyderabadi accent but really, what's with the kaala mooh and buck teeth? I feel like Javed Jaffrey is talented enough that he shouldn't have to rely on them for humor.

re: hindi vs. english as a national language.

well, i have some vicarious experience with language issues, my family is from bangladesh and many of our family friends were from pakistan, and they would rehash the language issues. here is a funny exchange:

punjabi urdu proponent: you should have accepted urdu as the lingua franca, after all, a nation needs unity
my father: more than half the nation spoke bengali in 1970, why not go with the majority language?
punjabi urdu proponent: well, that's different. urdu is well known in the west, bengali is not, it is easier for us....
my father: easier for you, what about the majority of the population which speaks bengali and doesn't have much experience with urdu? (note: urdu is closer to punjabi and sindhi than bengali from what i know)

i think that hindi as a nation language for indo-aryan speaking india is plausible. but it seems asinine to impose it on the south. i can't make heads or tales of south indian languages, but i can of hindi (as a bengali speaker). but one assumes that no matter how smart south indians are they return the favor in finding north indian languages a chore to learn. with english it is equally hard and equally accessible, and this matters for things like government appointments and jobs at major companies.

Edit. last sentence should be Indians should think of India first, ALWAYS (not just on Independence Day)

If countries were large phone companies, we would have no guilt switching allegiance.

OK, that was just some lazy end-of-the-day thought despite not actually following the etire conversation/context. Don't dissect it too seriously, please. And if you do, I won't be here to defend myself.

On eve of 60th independence day, Indians should think of India first.

yeah. of course. but you can't expect an americo-brown site to go along with that. we speak english here already. i know many pakistani americans of punjabi origin who know urdu but not punjabi because their parents make a choice about what second language they should have. i assume that some gujarati americans are similar with hindi. but a lot of people don't give a crap about hindi here aside from watching bollywood. so note that perspective.

(Yes, the fact that I associate "I was young and impressionable" with misadventures reflects more about me).

You are not alone, kiddo. My misadventures can fill a book...that is yet to be begun.

A developed India will be more like what European Union wants to be in the future, single currency, single defence force, single political entity with multiple and flourishing cultures / languages / food habits etc.. etc..

India should be compared with Europe and not a mono ethnic / mono lingual state.

This was proposed in the Anandpur Sahib Resolution back in 1971!!! But they were called seditionists.

i assume that some gujarati americans are similar with hindi.

Razib, most of the Gujarati ABDs I know speak Gujarati a lot better than Hindi. But Punjabi Hindus certainly speak Hindi much better than Punjabi. For the same reason that you said, that parents make a choice for them. Getting back to Hyderabad, I was astounded when I met a 2nd gen Hyderabadi Muslim girl from Long Island, who (in her words) 'likes to speak proper Urdu like they do in Pakistan' rather than in the Hyderabadi style.

who (in her words) 'likes to speak proper Urdu like they do in Pakistan' rather than in the Hyderabadi style.

well, some bangladeshis like to speak kolkatta basha ;-) though i gues it is kind of weird since the heartland of urdu was around delhi, right?

some people ask "why fuss about languages?" well, i'm illiterate in bengali. so are my siblings. we speak baby talk. we have lost access to an entire literary corpus and the voice of our ancestral culture. i don't care much myself, but that is what is at stake. as people turn their native tongues into "kitchen languages" they will lose access to their cultural patrimony in an immediate sense. this applies both to the spread of english or hindi.

p.s. most of our ancestors spoke a whole host of languages, and their voices are obviously silent. this is nothing new.

moisture evaporator language.

budugu, may i ask to what does your handle refer - the name of a dialect?

Poughkeepsie!

this is not looking so great for the gf search. plus, as the meet-up is approaching, i suggest you refrain from such comments until after saturday ;)

oh but ak, I thought we were all just supposed to 'be ourselves'?

Unbelievable. Pakistani actor Moin Akhtar (a muhajir/Indian origin himself) plays Hyderabadis from India in blackface in this ‘comedy’ show.

He is not actually a pakistani actor, he is infact a bollywood actor, javed jaffrey, who is also a dancer, comedian and a judge on at least one of the popular reality television shows on mainstream indian tv.

He does a lot of "impersonations" in his comedy routines/skits and probably thought this was a harmless one more so out of ignorance like many other folks in the indian media than out of racism.

oh but ak, I thought we were all just supposed to 'be ourselves'?

A few commenters have claimed that only the ABDs are talking about the confederate South. Not true. There are large numbers of DBDs who would easily prefer to be a separate nation. But then DBDs dont normally talk about this in the public sphere in India. So this is not just an ABD phenomenon. Is a separate Southern / Western India economically / geographically viable? Yes of course. A break up will help the successful states to become developed and maybe even join the OECD within a generation of seceding. A Balkanization of India is good for the winners (eg South India) bad for the losers ( BIMARU). Will a secession happen? Yes, maybe it will happen in my lifetime. Already there are rumblings how the Govt of India is run by the dumb fellows from the BIMARU states.
To a South Indian - Hindi is as much a foreign language as English. Am happy to learn one foreign language - not two. Maybe the Hindi chaps can learn a foreign language as well.
The position of Himanshu is a classic reason why South India needs to be separate.

Malayalam is not dying any time soon.
The language of romance is still Malayalam - not English. As long this continues, Malalyalam is not dying. Listen to any teenage couple flirting and you will find the language is not English.

For the same reason that you said, that parents make a choice for them.

Most Punjabi Hindus are urban dwellers - a very large number live in Delhi, where Hindi was much more widely spoken, so it made eminent sense to choose Hindi over Punjabi. There was also nationalist feeling at play: Lala Lajpat Rai felt that Hindu Punjabis were better off siding with nation over region. Given the secessionist tendencies in the Punjab that later developed, that too seems to have made eminent sense. I heard just a week ago claim that the Punjab is under "seige" and what prevails in India today is sort of like what prevailed in the USSR. Just as the Ukranians and Kakazkhs are no longer Soviet, one day the Punjabis will no longer be Indian. Chooising Hindi also limited the land the potential secessionists were able to credibly claim - a pea of the former unified Punjab. This too was sensible. What would have the fate of Hindus been in Sikh-cleric controlled Khalistan? Language is only one component of identity, not the "essence" that some people here are claiming.

Yes there were benefits to these horrible things, but the US isnt developed because we had slavery. A lot of places had slavery that are still backwards.

I actually hope not! Judging by the attitudes of Europe towards Turkey and to a lesser extent towards Slavic countries, it sometimes seems to me like the EU is trying to be some sort of exclusivist club.

the rich have always looked down on the poor...thats nothing new.
I don't think it's really a rich/poor dynamic. Until WWI the Ottoman Empire was one of the richest states in the region, and the Slavic/Baltic countries were holding their own.

Edit. last sentence should be Indians should think of India first, ALWAYS (not just on Independence Day)

>budugu, may i ask to what does your handle refer - the name of a dialect?

budugu (pronounced: buDuGu) is a yesteryears Telugu cartoon character, a cute and precocious kid, a Telugu version of Dennis the Menace of sorts.
(The comic strip was created by an amazingly talented cartoonist-writer-duo Baapu and Ramana)

Funny thing is, there's a dravidian language (dialect of kannada) called Badaga

HMF, that's why i asked - my best friend growing up spoke badaga.

someone explain the northification of all sasa's, i've never understood it

if anyone really wants to see the north/south divide, attend a sasa meeting and watch the tamil freshmen squirm

Milli @135, I am sorry you had to go through the experience. I am bengali (should I categorize myself as North Indian or East Indian ? I rather like it just 'Indian') and suffered the same from (unfortunately) Tamil people: I went to a party and got stuck in a conversation with some people (in US) and after every 5 minutes they kept on harping: ohh you don't know Tamizh ...haa...haa..haa. And there is a friend from Karnataka, who has a passion for insulting my language (unfortunately for him, I have less accent in my English than he does). On the other hand I am always irritated by the habits of some hindi speakers who make it their point to correct every word I say ( and my Hindi is not bad either).

I honestly think that in our upbringing we MUST impart respect for other culture and language. Whenever I hear someone making idiotic comments about anyone's culture/language, I but cannot help but think that the person is immature (and lacks quite a bit a culture himself). And if he is a guy, he is absolutely below the league of all the cool girls I know. And if you are dating one such, please re-consider, because it is going to be quite a hell later.

Nien Numb, who copiloted the Millenium Falcon along with Lando Calrissian, during the Battle of Endor, spoke a little bit of Swahili.

HMF, it's Nien Nunb, not "Numb." Plus, the language he spoke was Haya, not Swahili.

Are you throwing a starwars gauntlet down?

Your overconfidence is your weakness. Yo mama fight!

"HMF, it's Nien Nunb, not "Numb." Plus, the language he spoke was Haya, not Swahili."

That's true, I did see both spellings used, and Nien Nunb is the correct one, and from what I remember the language was actually an amalgum, including some kiswahili along with it. This is not captured in the wiki link, but was part of the ROTJ special features.

But are you throwing the gauntlet down now? Name me the main character's name, in the original draft of the script.

I honestly think that in our upbringing we MUST impart respect for other culture and language.

I think you nailed it...the entire point of this whole thread boils down to this.

By the way, 500+ comment threads used to impress me not so long ago...

for some reason, i know a high number of people from hopewell junction (it's near there, right?)...

wow...my little hood (pough) is famous.

light of all of Pinda's (and your) other comments, i shall overlook this star trek/star wars love affair between the two of you...

thanks. im slightly less geeky in real life. its the difference between my high shcool self and my post college self. i actually got a directive to be less geeky when i started working in sales. i complied. not sure if thats good or bad....

Name me the main character's name, in the original draft of the script.

in the interest of getting play at some point in the future, i refuse to incriminate myself...

Listen to any teenage couple flirting

see....this is why i need to date more south indian grls. the only kannada/tamil that i ever spoke was at home with my family. im not even sure what flirting in kannada or tamil sounds like....its always been like a secret code language i could talk to my family in.

in the interest of getting play at some point in the future, i refuse to incriminate myself...

Do you seriously know it? I realized that with the advent of the web and google it makes these types of questions pretty moot, as the hottest cheerleader could easily google the starwars script. But you did answer the evap question pretty fast, but if you knew the answer to that Q off the top of your head...

but if you knew the answer to that Q off the top of your head...

sadly...yes...*sigh*...one of my friends in elementary school or junior high bought me this star wars encyclopedia thing. i read it. now...unfortunately, my mind is like a steel trap. i remember every book i read in pretty good detail.

wait...i would have gotten that question wrong. the name i was thinking of was actually his species. i stand corrected.

Wait, who are you considering the main character? I was considering Luke.

oh....starkiller. never mind. i misread your question....i was trying to think of an alternate name for nein nunmb. never mind.

no more...too geeky...

...and off topic.

oh you were thinking sullustian.

Im sure the Sullustians had lingusitic gripes with say, the Mon Calamaris, or the Rodians.

and after every 5 minutes they kept on harping: ohh you don't know Tamizh

which is odd given that tamil isnt a very common language in the US (even amongst the brown crowd).

He is not actually a pakistani actor, he is infact a bollywood actor, javed jaffrey, who is also a dancer, comedian and a judge on at least one of the popular reality television shows on mainstream indian tv.

Javed Jaffrey is one of the two guests. Moin Akhtar is the other guest.

There are large numbers of DBDs who would easily prefer to be a separate nation. But then DBDs dont normally talk about this in the public sphere in India. So this is not just an ABD phenomenon. Is a separate Southern / Western India economically / geographically viable? Yes of course. A break up will help the successful states to become developed and maybe even join the OECD within a generation of seceding. A Balkanization of India is good for the winners (eg South India) bad for the losers ( BIMARU).

melbourne desi, i am not sure where you come from, but it is not true that large number of dbds prefer balkanization. there is no hush hush conspiracy happening. the far right in tamil nadu wants a south-north split, but they don't even have electoral voice in tn. as for the rest of the south---what is in store? hindi is replaced by tamil being pushed down the throats of everyone else? the issue is not with hindi, the issue is that we haven't found the best tradeoff between the convenience of uniformity on the one hand and regional aspirations and identity on the other.

sure, south and west will be economically viable, but they are still better off with the northern "losers" as you call them. look at call centers in the south---they are very well represented by north indians as well. not all north indians are insular. for every one who is insular, there is one who contributes to the local culture.

on a macroeconomic level, northern markets are huge. agriculture is more feasible in the northern plains, *and* opportunities improve for everyone all round in a large country. as india moves more into private enterprise and organized retailing picks up, these things become even more important.

regional differences are not as vast as you think. i am south indian, and every girlfriend of mine has been from the north. in my undergrad class back home in india, there were some students who were remarkable---off the charts good i have never seen anywhere else since---and there was no correlation b/w south indian or bihari there. if you hit on someone each time they are down, you get nowhere.

Already there are rumblings how the Govt of India is run by the dumb fellows from the BIMARU states.

re: politics---coalition politics is the way every interest group in india gets a voice. for all that you complain about the "dumb fellows from the bimaru states", real devolution of power to everyone has happened there, probably better than in AP. and blanket statements like this are completely unwarranted.

Bytewords - do you realize that BIMARU contributes upto half the MPs. I for one certainly dont want those chaps making political decisions that directly impact me. Their decisions are made to benefit their consitutents who share nothing in common with me.
Give me one solid reason why South / West India needs to be aligned with the BIMARU states except for the quaint notion of 'India'. e.g. Maharashtra / Gujarat could easily separate and be more successful. I say it is high time that BIMARUs were cut loose. Then each of the states can be masters of their own destiny. eg. In a joint family why should the winner sons prop up the loser sons especially when the loser sons are more powerful and have the ear of the Karta. It is time for the winners to leave the fold.
The only people who benefit from the current india are the chaps from the BIMARU states. What does you dating a north indian girl have to do with the issue of freedom. This is not about Northies being insular. This about the right to self-determination / the right to a better life. Talk to a few south indians (both politicians and the others) about how they feel re: a separate nation - loosely tied together. My experience is that many of them are unhappy with the current arrangement. The Southern nation state would be like the European Union or UAE or the Caribbean with English being the medium of communication. Tamil is not an issue in this whole debate.

Give me one solid reason why South / West India needs to be aligned with the BIMARU states except for the quaint notion of 'India'. e.g. Maharashtra / Gujarat could easily separate and be more successful. I say it is high time that BIMARUs were cut loose. Then each of the states can be masters of their own destiny. eg. In a joint family why should the winner sons prop up the loser sons especially when the loser sons are more powerful and have the ear of the Karta. It is time for the winners to leave the fold.

i am not sure the analogy of the joint family holds here---we *are* masters of our own destiny. it is not true that the union government is likely to be adverserial with regard to the south. besides, the govt is playing a lesser role today than ever before and its role will continue diminishing.

raw-resource wise, the north is much better endowed. like i pointed out, none of the states in the south could have achieved, or can maintain food security on their own---today the notion is quaint, but it was very important even a decade back. likewise, manpower wise, there is no reason to say that the north is worse off. the north, as i pointed out, is a huge market as well.

the south is better equipped to harness manpower. it is definitely not true that we lose if we play right. on the contrary, because we have already have systems in place, the financial centers, and the associated prosperity will gravitate south---as they are already happening. mumbai and bangalore didn't come up in isolation---if maharashtra or karnataka become independent, neither will reach their full potential. at the same time, we must find a way to balance local identities with their cosmopolitan side.

my point is, i don't think it is as simple as north vs south. the issue we are dealing with is how do you balance differing aspirations? even if there is balkanization, this needs to be addressed. else the current set of problems will just be replaced by another set. the tamil/hindi point was just to illustrate this. my personal experience was also just an example to say that it is not as if there is something fundamentally different between south and north indians.

there is in my opinion, another advantage of living in a big nation. i think we have survived as a democracy because of our extreme diversity, not in spite of it. it builds a self correction mechanism because in every battle you have with another interest, you will find allies.

Bytewords - do you realize that BIMARU contributes upto half the MPs. I for one certainly dont want those chaps making political decisions that directly impact me.

it doesn't matter. democracy is not about nubmers alone---lobby and special interest group politics are equally important. and don't underestimate financial clout in a capitalist democrary: money=power. the trick is to play your cards right. yes, socialism hurts the south pretty nastily. but we are unlikely to go there again.

This about the right to self-determination / the right to a better life.

i disagree. i don't think there is anything lacking in the current setup with regard to these rights. on the other hand, for example, you had the nation of karnataka. what stops a konkani fellow from saying the same thing as above? if you have a nation for konkanis, what stops a saraswat fellow from saying the same thing? how long are you going to split states?

there is a point at which you stop, right? i think india is at that point: fundamentally, everyone has recourse to get what (s)he wants. the advantages of being in a nation together outweighs the marginal increase in self determination you will get. that is the reason we are a nation, it is pragmatic not quaint. true, the north clearly benefits from the south. doesn't mean the south loses from it---the south benefits as well (like i mention in the previous paras). it is not a zero sum game.

regarding politicians---like i mentioned, the far right in TN likes the idea of north/south divide. however, even the most radical fringe of the political spectrum in karnataka, maharashtra, gujarat (and i am guessing kerala and andhra) don't entertain this idea.

The north has neglected the south when it came to divying up funds in the past. Only Telugu Desam was able to use their leverage to get more federal funds for a little while.

The north has neglected the south when it came to divying up funds in the past. Only Telugu Desam was able to use their leverage to get more federal funds for a little while.

the "neglect" part is something every state claims. but infrastructure wise, the south is ahead of the north.

I agree with Melbourne Desi. The richer, progressive parts of India should not have to prop up the poorer parts, which are also much more numerous and therefore politically in full control. It is 100% true that the Central Gov't, due to democracy in action, will bend to the political might of the BIMARU states. What people don't realise is, that even if let's say South India becomes independent, there's nothing stopping them from TRADING with other parts of India (or anywhere else in the world, a right which is currently denied to them by the centralist structure). If food can be imported from BIMARU, then it will be...benefitting BIMARU farmers as well.

Sentimentally, many of us are attached to the notion of India as ONE COUNTRY...I share that sentiment too...but I think the only fair way to do that is give each state full economic, educational, and political autonomy. If Tamil Nadu wants to reach out to Japan or Argentina or Nigeria as trading partners, let it. If Israel and Gujarat cut a sweet deal that benefits both, let them. For that matter, if land-locked Punjab and coastally-blessed Gujarat (two of the most business-oriented peoples in India) want to cooperate with each other on their own terms, maybe building some great infrastructure and economic ties (which would help Rajasthan a lot too simply by being in the middle of all that activity), then let them do it. Of course, there can be a tax structure which will send SOME of the profits of this towards helping other parts of India, but the vast majority of it should stay in the state it was generated, and help the people of that state.

The Central Govt should be restricted to currency, defense, foreign policy (that one could be tricky), and maybe handling some internal disputes (like if TN and Karnataka go to war over the river water dispute or something, or if there is some glaring human rights issues or educational/social issues which are not being adequately addressed by a particular state govt. There has to be SOME central oversight otherwise all sort of local crackpot leaders could emerge who if unchecked would wreak havoc).

Byte : By being one country the benefits to the North far outweigh the benefits to the South. I dont agree with you about money overriding votes. Yes, money buys you influence but only to a point. Democracy is about numbers at the most fundamental level - votes determine the makeup of the parliament. The konkanis may demand a separate state - but will it be economically viable? I am still not clear how being one nation helps the South / West. Incidentally, Bangalore grew despite the governments (central/state). The taxes that the Mumbaikars pay go to fund the Lallus of the world!!! The far right in TN are nuts - tis the mainstream youth politicians who grumble about the Delhi durbar. Give it a few years and the rumblings will become more open. Obviously, you believe that a unified india is a win-win for all while I dont. Lets agree to disagree.

As Ramachandra Guha says, India is sui generis - just because a multi-lingual democracy has never happened in Europe does not make it illegitimate. None of the advocates for the "stans" has come close to achieving their aims. Nationalism is not "sentimental" -- its felt by a large body of people who share a civilization. The fact that so many stans have been bandied about here in the last couple of days is evidence of the truism that particularisms - whether Sikh or Dravidian or whatever - will always be stronger in diasporas than they are back in the home land. To go with Guha again, so long as everyone is free to speak their own language, the army is reasonably strong and free of corruption, and a national culture continues to develop amongst the elites in cities, India will endure.

I think India is very viable as a unified country as long as the states get increased rights and federal taxes are decreased so the states can generate their own revenue. The federal government should generate enough revenue to fund national sectors. Leave some of it to the states. It's amazing that the south had only one IIT. All of the colleges that sprung up were local efforts with no help from the center. The center should not be spending a single rupee to promote Hindi. That is the job of the Hindi states.
But I disagree the southern states should secede just because they are richer states. In most countries, the poor will get subsided by the rich. THe problem was for a lot of India's history, the federal government did not put enough emphasis on the south.

It's amazing that the south had only one IIT.

let me counter this one specifically. b'lore did become the hub of iisc, iti, hal, nal, raman research institute, iim and several premier organizations. at the time of inception, iit's were no more prestigious (and still are not more than iisc) than any other institute. all the above are central govt funded (iisc did start out as tata institute, but was groomed to be the flagship science research location as iisc after independence). other cities have similar examples.

The center should not be spending a single rupee to promote Hindi. That is the job of the Hindi states.

i agree---but it is a small objection imo as the amount that goes into hindi pracharan is tiny, and mainly a relic of the past. there should be no more increases till money is spent on other languages as well.

as long as the states get increased rights and federal taxes are decreased so the states can generate their own revenue. The federal government should generate enough revenue to fund national sectors.

we are moving in that direction. the strong central govt suited the socialist india. of late, it is increasingly hard to keep it up, coalition governments are the norm now. coalitions are a way of giving special interests more say than their numbers can, since a party with 12 members in lok sabha can pretty much wield a veto because they are the 12 members who push the coalition past the half way mark. analysts complained in the 90's about this, but the consensus today is that this is here to stay.

THe problem was for a lot of India's history, the federal government did not put enough emphasis on the south.

it is true that the union government could have done a lot more for the south. but then, it is also true that the govt could have done more for the urban poor, the eastern states, dalits (as opposed to obc's) in the northern plains, kashmiri hindus, and a whole lot of others. they are all mistakes, but i want to point out that the mistakes are not likely to persist. every group will argue for itself, that is life---and it will not change even if states secede. but there is also a will to see that no one gets screwed over by this.

To whomever wrote: "I meant successful nation, i.e. First world, something India should aspire to become within the next 50 years. I somehow don't think Indians want their nation to be known as "Mexico of Asia"."

(1) India would be lucky to become the "Mexico of Asia". Mexico's per capita GDP is ten times that of India's today and the proportion of people living in absolute poverty in India is 35% compared to 4% in Mexico. Mexico is in the group of countries that have attained a high level of human development according to the UN, with rank #53 compared to India's rank of 126 (latest figures).

(2) Before India aspires to become the "Mexico of Asia," perhaps it should first aspire to be the 'Nicaragua of Asia.' With a Human Development Index of 112, Nicaragua is 14 positions higher in terms of Human Development compared to India.

(3) No major country has ever gone from 3rd world impoverishment to first world prosperity in 50 years. I think you will find that the road toe development is a long hard slog. A little more sober reflection on the realities of this world and quite a bit less hubris-laden jingoistic chest-thumping would be welcome.

(4) Have you ever been to Mexico? I have had the opportunity to travel there and I can tell you that it is a far more developed country (infrastructure-wise, educationally, and socially) than India currently is. To become a country 'like Mexico' is a noble goal for a country 'like India' and I think it will be harder to reach that goal than most people are predicting.

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/indicators/23.html

Most Punjabi Hindus are urban dwellers - a very large number live in Delhi, where Hindi was much more widely spoken, so it made eminent sense to choose Hindi over Punjabi. There was also nationalist feeling at play: Lala Lajpat Rai felt that Hindu Punjabis were better off siding with nation over region. Given the secessionist tendencies in the Punjab that later developed, that too seems to have made eminent sense.

I also take exception to the claim that Punjab was somehow intrinsically secessionist. It's not like Sikhs are some freak renegade group who are "Sikhi and Punjabi uber alles!" I really don't want to talk about Punjab's "secessionist tendencies," but it would be foolish to think this was somehow based in identity only (be it Sikh or Punjabi). An argument rooted in resource access and political representation in (local) politics became reframed as a religious conflict. We see this the world over -- struggles over very basic things are reframed in terms of religion, and then it becomes an issue of "fundamentalism" or "extremism" or "terrorism" (all loaded words) instead of a conflict over concerns more common to the group as a whole.

bytewords:552

on the other hand, for example, you had the nation of karnataka. what stops a konkani fellow from saying the same thing as above? if you have a nation for konkanis, what stops a saraswat fellow from saying the same thing? how long are you going to split states?

..till we climax to a libertarian wet-dream state of a nation of one. ....'mmmm..do you want to go all the way?' ...'yeah'.... 'ok, but you'll have to apply for a visa'..

Camille, EXACTLY. This is the post of Risible's that I wanted to respond to at some length as well. I have so much to say about it, I disagreed with virtually everything he said. I guess my main point would have been that language and cultural heritage is not something that you sacrifice for politics and expediency. And that in much of the politics he refers to, the Punjabi Hindu leadership and Press was far from innocent (and neither was the Arya Samaj, that other major (and pernicious) influence on the cultural and political direction of the Punjabi Hindu community in the 20th century). Actually I wanted to write a lot more, tackling each point of his with a rebuttal, but I simply don't have time right now. Risible's stance strikes me as being analagous to a Sinhalese person who blames the Tamils for the violence in Sri Lanka...while ignoring all the things the Sinhalese did for so long to force the Tamils to that point. In the end, no one remains blameless of course.

Curry and Rice girl, are you there ? Your experience seems traumatic and I am now worried about what will happen when I have a child. You see, my husband and I are replicas of your parents because I am Bengali and he is Mallu Christian. Maybe times have changed, because he is adored at my parents house and my in-laws have been very sweet. I love Mallu people and culture a lot...and yes I love the food too. But there are some issues that are worrying me. Could you please email me ?

I have so much to say about it, I disagreed with virtually everything he said.

No worries, Amitabh. Come back and give it to me. As I've said, my family on my father's side is Hindu Punjabi -- refugees from Lahore. The vociferous regional chauvinisms in the diaspora have driven me to a sort of soft nationalism. I should say that I am firstly an American, but emotional, religious, and economic ties to India (in the form of property, e.g.) make me consider myself a stakeholder in the Indian project, so you should understand that that, and not any personal animus to Sikhs, Dravidian separatists, Kashmiris, Nagas, etc., drives my perspective.

ANNA, I think our Dads would be very good friends if they meet each other, because my dad loves a lot of things Mallu, more so after I got married to my Mallu dude. In fact he emails us interesting mallu stuff whenever he finds. But I have found so many things common among the two culture, that I am pretty comfortable right now.

In general, I have seen that Bengalis think South Indians are more of intellectual (with less brashness etc), than North Indians; maybe prejudiced by bollywood movies ? But from my dating experience, I have to say that South Indian guys tend to be more respectful towards woman than northie guys, and yeah, there is loooot less eve teasing in the South.

This seems like an obvious case of "They came for the people in another town, and I did nothing. They came for my neighbors and I did nothing. They came for my friends and I did nothing. Then they came for me." Surprise, surprise. If South Asians have done blackface before, then it should not be surprising when they show the same ignorance towards their own.

Whereever the colonials have once ruled, you will find this racial stereotype. In Mexico the films portray the darker pure natives as second class, In USA blacks have a color complex, And India obviously has it. I am an African American of mixed heritage with two children who are half Mexican. My wife is beautiful, but wow, the dark and beautiful women of southern India are the most elegant looking in the world. Bollywood needs to wake up to the dark chocolate because its hot!!!!!!!!

by the way, darker skin ages more gracefully