Sometimes I get the impression that SRK isn't very discerning on what he shills--I mean, he sort of appears on billboards for EVERYTHING in India. But this is a commercial, so he had to make a conscious decision beyond just holding a bottle and flashing his pearly whites. Maybe it's "I'm not only a spokesman...I'm also a client."

besides the obvious messed-up-ness of fairness creams, i also like that us women apparently only get 'aam' (ordinary) fairness creams, which are insufficient for the men.

do desi grls like fair guys? I thought tall was the requirement for guys. i didnt realize pale was important too...

boys, it's time to put away your sun umbrella ((ella ella eh eh eh).

if tall and pale arae desireable, seems more efficient to find a nice white guy, then try to synthesize one out of a desi guy.

I guess this is one of the steps to becoming a desi 'metrosexual,' due to urbanization and all?

I personally don't have a skin color preference--it's more about facial features, and kind of about height (i'm fairly short so probably 99.9% of guys are taller than me) and about how fit they keep themselves, how they present themselves, etc.

I would guess a lot of desh-raised women would prefer light-skinned husbands though, because it leads to higher chances that their children will also be light-skinned. (This is assuming that desh-raised women have the light skin = superior mentality, which I think is much more likely if you were raised there since that mentality is so much more prevalent there than among the diaspora, that I know of at least). It's all about the children!

How is this not the most racist commercial on the planet right now?

besides the obvious messed-up-ness of fairness creams

Ok time to interject a different note in the conversation:
While I agree that :1) ads for Fair and Lovely and now F& H are absolutely loathsome and deservedly mocked 2) there is a prevalence of preference for fair skin across India, I wonder if everyone who buys these creams does this under the illusion that it will actually change the color of your skin.From my experience in the des , the pollution on the roads plays havoc on your skin specially if you drive a two -wheeler.I wonder if at least some % age of the people who buy this product do it to restore their "original skin color and not to change it completely.

Again this is not a defence of this product or preference for fair skin etc - just a passing thought

He's definitely playing to a perceived 'base' audience.

Have any Southie actors jumped on the lightening-product bandwagon?

I can't imagine a Rajni-helmed, "Dark and Date-Less" cosmetics campaign would be feasible.

do desi grls like fair guys? I thought tall was the requirement for guys. i didnt realize pale was important too...

Puli - I prefer tall over pale. I have a strong aversion to pasty white legs.
I love darker skin, it just gives you a healthy glow.

On a side note, I hate it when caucasion people say to me "Oh, I got so tan, I was as dark as you!"

NO, NO, NO if you were that dark you would be one large cancerous melanoma.

do desi grls like fair guys? I thought tall was the requirement for guys. i didnt realize pale was important too...

We could easily quantify this by examining the profiles in an Indian dating/matrimony site. My gut feel is that many Indian women living in India have a preference for lighter skinned men all other things (e.g. earning potential)being equal. I hear that it can be difficult getting a nice apartment or getting admission into exclusive social clubs as an affluent dark skinned man in India...is this true?. I can't say that I have seen it among women raised here in the US

hear that it can be difficult getting a nice apartment or getting admission into exclusive social clubs as an affluent dark skinned man in India...is this true?

Whatever happened to tall, dark and handsome?!

Whatever happened to tall, dark and handsome?!

9/11. (I've ALWAYS wanted to give the glib, conservative one-word answer to any question).

runa, i think most people would actually buy it for lightening purposes, rather than for re-balancing. also, the aim of the campaigns is to make people fairer, not to give them back their original complexion. though i think a product along the lines you mentioned would be good for people - to protect against sun and pollution. that's something that can be marketed without necessarily hinting at the dark vs fair divide (though i'm pretty sure the ad execs would seize on this angle as well).

I can't imagine a Rajni-helmed, "Dark and Date-Less" cosmetics campaign would be feasible.

personally, i like dark skin (desi or not). it's not my preference per se, but i certainly notice darker-skinned men more immediately than their lighter counterparts. but in my experience, it hasn't played any part as to whom i actually end up dating.

He's definitely playing to a perceived 'base' audience.

Have any Southie actors jumped on the lightening-product bandwagon?

I can't imagine a Rajni-helmed, "Dark and Date-Less" cosmetics campaign would be feasible.

Muralimannered: Not as far as I know, but I get the feeling Tollywood is still not catering to womens' tastes when it comes to selecting male leads in the way that Bollywood does. I know there is demand for such products, but any endorsement by a Tamil actor would attract serious anger from all of the Dravidian political parties

There's some odd color language in Telugu that I noticed: When it seems to someone that you got lighter (I really don't think this is the case, perhaps when your complexion is clearer they perceive it as lighter?), they say that 'rangu vocchindhi' (you got some color). And if you got darker, 'rangu poyindhi' (the color left you). I've had this said to me when I visited India, and it doesn't make much sense to me. Can Telugu speakers confirm/explain?; is this true in other languages as well?

Also, my mother is convinced that there's something in the water in New York that makes me darker when I'm here and lighter when I'm in India (even though I'm out in the sun more often in India). Um, anyone else's mothers think like this?

Finally, is anyone else willing to admit that their families/communities are color-ist? My parents have always made comments about skin color; I've gotten used to them. Just the other day, my mother said: "wow you look light today [nala]. did you take a shower today?" (yes yes I'm a college student, I'm allowed to be a total slob k?) Is there anyone here, though, who always tells off/educates their parents/relatives/aunties & uncles about not being colorist?

I think testosterone naturally darkens skin, so you would expect women to want a man to be darker relative to the average of the population?

there should be stupidity enhancing products on the market. an entire industry that promotes an ideal of being dumber than the next person as sexually desirable. that might be interesting...

darker when I'm here and lighter when I'm in India

maybe when your arround whyte people u look dark. when your around dark skinned desis you look light?

Is there anyone here, though, who always tells off/educates their parents/relatives/aunties & uncles about not being colorist?

i jsut ignore them. the tastes of a 113 year old auntie barely registers on my radar in my mate selection.

there should be stupidity enhancing products on the market. an entire industry that promotes an ideal of being dumber than the next person as sexually desirable. that might be interesting...

Where can I order this cream ASAP? I hope SAMSCLUB/COSTCO get this product so I can get a bargain.

Welcome to reality shows.

do they make dumber people look sexually desirable due to theri supidity?

@Nala

(I really don't think this is the case, perhaps when your complexion is clearer they perceive it as lighter?), they say that 'rangu vocchindhi' (you got some color). And if you got darker, 'rangu poyindhi' (the color left you)

Your reply should be: "Rangu paduddi" (Comical dialogue in a Telugu movie for - blood will flow, exact translation impossible :))..

When it seems to someone that you got lighter (I really don't think this is the case, perhaps when your complexion is clearer they perceive it as lighter?), they say that 'rangu vocchindhi' (you got some color). And if you got darker, 'rangu poyindhi' (the color left you). I've had this said to me when I visited India, and it doesn't make much sense to me. Can Telugu speakers confirm/explain?; is this true in other languages as well?

I've heard the same thing in Malayalam. It sounds backwards to me- if one was getting darker, wouldn't their 'color' be increasing?

It sounds backwards to me- if one was getting darker, wouldn't their 'color' be increasing?

well color decreasing sounds "ugly" color increasing sounds "pretty and healthy". people think that dark = "uglyer". therefore, color increasing = light.

once, one of my aunties introduced me to a grl who was "so pretty and fair". her only noticable physical feature was pale skin. want at all attractive in any way, but pale, so all good.

I don't want to get into the discussion regarding how many desis are afflicted with colorism (nice word, nala)...there's a more serious problem here that brings out the libertarian in me.

What does bother me is that all and sundry are attacking ShahRukh because he does not conform to others' notion of what constitutes egalitarian when it comes to physical attributes of people. Sure, maybe you don't think that in the sixtieth year of Indian independance it is not correct to continue to extend preference of fair skin over dark one. Noble idea indeed, and more power to you. But by asking/demanding that others accept your moral code for personal preferences, you are taking the first step towards fascism. What next, a lawsuit against Khan? A ban on these products?

loucypher said: >> any endorsement by a Tamil actor would attract serious anger from all of the Dravidian political parties

See, a common trait in India is that people try solving social issues by punishment instead of reward. Why don't these Dravidian political parties have award ceremonies for producers/directors of movies with dark skinned leads? Would'nt that be more encouraging than to punish those who don't?

Folks who are against such products and attitudes should probably try to bring change in their own families/friends before they embark upon saving the world. When they do, they'll find that attitudes don't change because you want them to, but because the underlying cause has been removed. More incidents of economic success among desis will slowly erode the fascination with such products, as the potential for self-hatred is gradually reduced.

M. Nam

I'd like to bastardize Morgan Freeman's character in Lean On Me, "I don't have to do nothin' but stay dark'n
date-less...and die!!!"

What does bother me is that all and sundry are attacking ShahRukh because he does not conform to others' notion of what constitutes egalitarian when it comes to physical attributes of people.

setting up my own fascist state was my planned retirement activity

I hope SAMSCLUB/COSTCO get this product so I can get a bargain.

But by asking/demanding that others accept your moral code for personal preferences, you are taking the first step towards fascism.

Criticizing SRK on a blog is the first step toward fascism? That's a wee bit extreme, don't you think?

I hope SAMSCLUB/COSTCO get this product so I can get a bargain.

this stuff cant be healthy...

Why don't these Dravidian political parties have award ceremonies for producers/directors of movies with dark skinned leads?

Reminds me of Chris Rock's joke:

"a n****r wants credit for something that you're supposed to do, something that a normal black man just does, a n****r will say 'I take care of my kids', what do you want a cookie?"

how about rewarding producres and directors that choose good actors, in fact, how about rewarding an industry that makes a film about more than some girls dancing in the forest.

Criticizing SRK on a blog is the first step toward fascism? That's a wee bit extreme, don't you think?

its a slippery slope. first step sepia mutiny. next step the world ruled by puli's iron fist.

some girls dancing in the forest.

this is so f'ed up and ridiculous it's funny. did you see how SRK lit a match off of the dude's face? aaah!

its a slippery slope. first step sepia mutiny. next step the world ruled by puli's iron fist.

As long as you make sure the trains run on time, Puli.

As long as you make sure the trains run on time, Puli.

some girls dancing in the forest.

Look at all the brown people on the planet. Having brown skin is no barrier to getting laid on planet earth. And I doubt 500 million guys that look like me in India spend much of their time bemoaning their brown complexion. When everyone around you is brown, how much anxiety can one tv commercial produce? What's tough is being the one brown guy in an all white work, school, or living environment.

forests are so 1980s - nightclubs within a set are the in thing now :)

and suddently showing whyte peple dancing in the background in australia or swizerland or something. thats key.

manditory synchronised $ex for all

this is not as easy as it sounds, puli - will we be assigned partners if we lack one?

oh yes. this will be a logistical nightmare, but my adminstration will be up to the task. you will be asigned one at the next meetup.

MoorNam: I'm certainly not suggesting that SRK should not be able to flog this product, it's strange where you see the emergence of fascism. I do agree that head on confrontation of this pathology won't work. The economic ascendancy of South India will probably do more than anything else to convey "Black is Beautiful"

oh yes. this will be a logistical nightmare, but my adminstration will be up to the task. you will be asigned one at the next meetup.

*makes mental note to attend next meetup*

I just saw the commercial. The girls are really hot in it. I'd go light for them, if my Axe body spray didn't do the trick.

9/11. (I've ALWAYS wanted to give the glib, conservative one-word answer to any question).

LOL

BTW how many of you light skinned ones have experienced "reverse discrimination" from fellow brownies for supposedly not having a healthy glow?

When everyone around you is brown, how much anxiety can one tv commercial produce?

well..the issue in india is that some people are slightly browner than other people. it is then rubbed in the face of the slightly browner poeple. also decreases your marriage market value. a different game out there.

BTW how many of you light skinned ones have experienced "reverse discrimination" from fellow brownies for supposedly not having a healthy glow?

nah, people compliment me that "my face is so nice" cause im pale. but, i get knocked cause im short. oh well.

>>Criticizing SRK on a blog is the first step toward fascism? That's a wee bit extreme, don't you think?

Every avalanche starts out as a small snowball...

And this is how it ends...

M. Nam

My experience tells me that complexion plays a bigger role in picking brides than it does in picking grooms, where education/employment seems to take precedence.

Also, in my mid-morning research into today's matrimonials, I found my new pet-peeve:

INNOCENT DIVORCEE having a son LC Nadar 30/163 PGDT financially above average seeks groom respond Box No. TV-175, THE HINDU, Trivandrum-695008.

Why would a divorcee be, or atleast admit to being, anything but innocent??

Skep Mod,

Innocent = No fault in matrimonial speak

oh yeah, what exactly does 'wheatish' entail?

me, i'm more the color of barley myself.

did anyone else notice the "american double strength peptides and jaDi bootee" (0:12) referred to as the distinguishing feature of this product? i didn't know peptides had nationality! ;-)

Runa,

Innocent = No fault in matrimonial speak

Is the implication that a divorce is always someone's fault?

Every avalanche starts out as a small snowball...

And this is how it ends...

You're right, we should definitely all keep our mouths shut from now on. That'll put an end to silly laws for sure!

how about rewarding producres and directors that choose good actors, in fact, how about rewarding an industry that makes a film about more than some girls dancing in the forest.

My bet is that movies like Danny Boyle's planned "Slum Dog Millionaire" will introduce a new set of more typically complexioned actors/actresses that would never get anything more than a cursory examination of headshot photos from brain dead Indian film producers/directors.

Just saying "wheatish" isn't enough.

I myself am the color of golden 76.

just sayin.

hee. word to post #61

muralimannered on August 22, 2007 11:57 AM said:

Have any Southie actors jumped on the lightening-product bandwagon?

I can't imagine a Rajni-helmed, "Dark and Date-Less" cosmetics campaign would be feasible.

Funny you mention that. There's an extended sequence in Sivaji: The Boss, where an America-returned Rajni (whose signature phrase time time is 'Cooool!' -- how lame!) is trying to woo a starlet young enough to be his great-granddaughter. She likes him s3kr1tly but cannot marry him for astrological reasons, so she says she can't marry someone who is so dark.

Rajni then proceeds to undergo comically absurd ways of lightening his skin, including vats of Fair & Lovely, only to resort to a digitally lightened skin a few shots later. The starlet is touched that he went through so much for her and proceeds to tell him the real reason they can't be together.

Oh, if only I too could get Rs. 16 crores (US$4m) for such drivel.

I looked for a YouTube clip but couldn't find one :*(

SkepMod says:

Also, in my mid-morning research into today's matrimonials, I found my new pet-peeve:

INNOCENT DIVORCEE having a son LC Nadar 30/163 PGDT financially above average seeks groom respond Box No. TV-175, THE HINDU, Trivandrum-695008.

Why would a divorcee be, or atleast admit to being, anything but innocent??

My best guess is that innocent here means that the divorce was not her fault (whether by law or as perceived by society). For instance, by this measure, I expect Aniston would be seen the 'innocent' one in the Aniston-Pitt split, seeing as how Brad hooked up with Angelina fairly soon after.

Other ways of becoming lighter: Dont step out in the Sun without cover. Stop drinking Indian tea. Dont eat any spicy food. Hang out with friends who are significantly darker so you look lighter.

I am never sure what I think about the complexion issue. There's certainly a bias towards fair skin (both for guys and girls) in the dating game back in the desh, but I don't see how you can police other people's sexual preferences. What I dislike is the blatantly un-PC way in which these biases are expressed.

btw, anyone else here run across aunties dabbling in amateur eugenics ('my son is too dark, I need a fair-complexioned girl for him.').

Innocent = No fault in matrimonial speak

thanks for the tips ACfD - but for the chai, i'll be trying everything else ;)

When asked (repeatedly)why Bollywood actors are so much lighter than most Indians, I usually ask if Hollywood actors are representative of Americans. Nope! The majority of Americans are not orangey-brown and anorexic, they are pale and fat.

One of the blogs that Manish's post linked to:http://vsequeira.blogspot.com/2005/07/fair-lovely.html
Replace all skin color comments with fatness comments, and it works in the U.S., no?
Ex:
#1- Jennifer Anniston, Paris Hilton, all those girls of MTV reality shows... not particularly attractive, but are thin and tan. Naturally, we throw lots of money at them.

did anyone else notice the "american double strength peptides and jaDi bootee" (0:12) referred to as the distinguishing feature of this product? i didn't know peptides had nationality! ;-)

well, american is used like a marketing catch line there. all sorts of vague stuff is marketed as american in india. guess that liek "foreign chic" same as french being cool in the US.

just sayin.

hee. word to post #61

aww...thanks.

Innocent = No fault in matrimonial speak

i love matrimonial speak. i speak it better than i speak english. next time some grl says she is "a blend of east and west values" and has spent her whole life in the east, or west i will say "im sorry. i prefer an amalgamation of east and west values. this just wont work." I still havent figured out why eastern values are easter, and western values are western. if i analyse each value that is claimed is eastern, or westerm, it turns out that there is no historical or logical reason for that value to be assigned a point on the compas.

I think for a grl, pretty + light skin = golden. for a guy, money + height = golden. if either gender is missing one of its 2 key ingredients, its bye bye birdie for them in the marriage market.

You're right, we should definitely all keep our mouths shut from now on. That'll put an end to silly laws for sure!

s!eg h@il!

Several Telugu movies have Hindi/North Indian actresses, and just dub Telugu voice overs for them. The idea being that Telugu women are not fair enough, therefore not worthy of acting in movies for their own peeps.

Does the advent of F&H mean that pretty soon Telugu actors will also need to be replaced by Hindi/North Indian actors? In that case, they could just drop all of Tollywood and just dub every Bollywood movie...that would be even more cost effective!

one of my professors told me that people try to intimate with 'innocent' that the girl is still a virgin - i.e. sexually innocent. i don't know that that is true, or that people even buy it, but this seems to be at least one meaning.

"Mary gave birth to CHRIST without having known a man's touch, that's true. But she did have a husband. And do you really think he'd have stayed married to her all those years if he wasn't getting laid? The nature of God and the Virgin Mary, those are leaps of faith. But to believe a married couple never got down? Well, that's just plain gullibility. "

Does the advent of F&H mean that pretty soon Telugu actors will also need to be replaced by Hindi/North Indian actors? In that case, they could just drop all of Tollywood and just dub every Bollywood movie...that would be even more cost effective!

or...they could hire a bunch of italians. dub them in hindi, and everyone will be REALLY fair. (and besides, i have a weakness for the italians)

Isn't the problem that there is a market for these types of creams and has been for absolutely years?

SRK is just endorsing a product that is considered by many in India as perfectly just like our US anti -wrinkle creams or anti cellulite crap and these lightening creams are all over Asia has even filtered to the UK etc.

Isn't the problem that there is a market for these types of creams and has been for absolutely years?

im not sure it is a problem. people everywhere have body issues of some knid of another. there is therefore a demand for products to aleviate some of these issues and build confidence. if people want to buy them, and F+L wants to sell them, what the problem?

I always though these types of "whitening" creams had something in them (hydroquinone I think) that actually does whiten the skin, but with long term use it is a dangerous carcinogen.

Can anyone confirm this?

If that is the case then I think the levity of the discourse evaporates and it becomes a very serious matter of public health within our community.

Whats the problem with a skin lightning cream?? Just because its out there does not mean every man or woman has to go get it!!1 If someone is not happy with their skin color so be it....this is a great way for them to make themselves feel better about the way they look.....as far as no body is forcing them...i don't see any issue with this. Its like saying oh my god there's another weight loss pill coming out in USA.....gosh there is so much pressure to be thin...now I have to go get it! Every culture has stereotypical conceptions of beauty.....you do whatever makes you look and feel good

If that is the case then I think the levity of the discourse evaporates and it becomes a very serious matter of public health within our community.

well...if it causes cancer, then the stuff should be banned. if not, who cares?

Puliogre, your idea of "really fair" is Italian? I've heard even fairer ethnicities exist, in the mysterious lands to the north.

Puliogre, your idea of "really fair" is Italian? I've heard even fairer ethnicities exist, in the mysterious lands to the north.

but, its a bit easier for an itlaian to pass as a really fair desi. much harder for some sweedish dude.

Puliogre, your idea of "really fair" is Italian? I've heard even fairer ethnicities exist, in the mysterious lands to the north.

but, its a bit easier for an itlaian to pass as a really fair desi. much harder for some sweedish dude.

Could it be because Italians are part-Scythian?

Though I personally think that tendency to equate fairness with beauty is loathsome, the civil libertarian in me agrees with the gist of Moornam's comment (so condemn, but don't force); also i don't think it is quite accurate to equate these tendencies with "racism" or something like that. That would be distorting the cultural context in which these kinds of things happen. The more accurate american analogy would be things like breast augmentations, nose jobs , liposuctions etc. all of which are undertaken to try to conform to a certain ideal of beauty (that being said, these things sicken me too).

Whats the problem with a skin lightning cream?? Just because its out there does not mean every man or woman has to go get it!!

Umm..most of us understand there is no compulsion to purchase this.

1 If someone is not happy with their skin color so be it....this is a great way for them to make themselves feel better about the way they look.....as far as no body is forcing them...i don't see any issue with this.

Who again is calling for a ban ?

Its like saying oh my god there's another weight loss pill coming out in USA.....gosh there is so much pressure to be thin...now I have to go get it! Every culture has stereotypical conceptions of beauty.....you do whatever makes you look and feel good

Obesisty is a racial characteristic ? You don't see anything pathological about a whole nation of people wanting to change a primary racial characteristic, but many of us do. Vive la difference I guess

Could it be because Italians are part-Scythian?

god, no...you didnt just say that.

Here's an old one, would be appropriate here:

A black man walks into a cafe one early morning and noticed that he was the only black man there. As he sat down, he noticed a white man behind him.

The white man said, "Colored people are not allowed here."

The black man turned around and stood up. He then said:

"When I was born I was black,"
"When I grew up I was black,"
"When I'm sick I'm black,"
"When I go in the sun I'm black,"
"When I'm cold I'm black,"
"When I die I'll be black."

"But you sir..."
"When you're born you're pink,"
"When you're sick, you're green,"
"When you go in the sun you turn red,"
"When you're cold you turn blue,"
"And when you die you turn purple."
"And you have the nerve to call *me* colored!"

they say that 'rangu vocchindhi' (you got some color). And if you got darker, 'rangu poyindhi' (the color left you). I've had this said to me when I visited India, and it doesn't make much sense to me. Can Telugu speakers confirm/explain?; is this true in other languages as well?

Yeah, they say 'rangu vocchindhi', but for the later one its mostly 'nalla paddavu'.

Also, my mother is convinced that there's something in the water in New York that makes me darker when I'm here and lighter when I'm in India (even though I'm out in the sun more often in India). Um, anyone else's mothers think like this?

I've heard that too, from my mother and aunts. There could be some truth to it. I became tad light skinned while living in Hyderabad, but gained back my dark skin while living in Scotland.

gained back my dark skin

interesting. maybe your just a bit healthier without dust/pollution/6 kinds of the runs etc? because of that the color copes back to your skin?

Let's put aside complexion. What's an acceptable basis of beauty?

but gained back my dark skin while living in Scotland.

May have been because of more UV. Generally you don't venture out much in India unless the temperature is cool enough. At northern latitudes you can wander out more often, catching more UV without much discomfort from heat or humidity.

What's an acceptable basis of beauty?

Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder.

Let's put aside complexion. What's an acceptable basis of beauty?

for a grl: symetetry. clear skin. healthy hair. good abs, good chest, tight bottom, defined legs, pleasant smile.

for a guy: tall, broad shoulders, muscular, in shape, good eyes, squarish jaw. (im not g*y, so grls, or g*y guys would need to chime in on this one).

"Mary gave birth to CHRIST without having known a man's touch, that's true. But she did have a husband. And do you really think he'd have stayed married to her all those years if he wasn't getting laid? The nature of God and the Virgin Mary, those are leaps of faith. But to believe a married couple never got down? Well, that's just plain gullibility. "

I solved the 'fairness problem' by hiring 2 guys to train spotlights on me wherever I walk.

The problem is that I keep tripping on the extension cords. Life ain't fair!

Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder.

I solved the 'fairness problem' by hiring 2 guys to train spotlights on me wherever I walk.

a lot of the studio pics on s.com have exactly that happening. the grl is standing in a blindling light. makes her look lighter.

The one thing that continues to surprise me about these "Fair and Lovely" discussions (both online and off), is how often it fails to place its arguments within an Indian context (Admittedly, I haven't read all the comments above). From the last post,

In India, there’s a big class divide between those tanned from being out in the sun all day vs. those who work indoors. That’s in addition to the obvious association between caste and intrinsic skin shade.

As desis the world over know, skin color simply does not carry the same significance in India. While the above is indisputably true, it also plays itself out in very different ways than one might imagine. There is always the argument that discusses India-as-colonized land that doesn't realize it's internalized-self-hatred perpetuated by the evil British. I am personally bored to death of this line of argument. It's old, tired, not to mention nauseatingly condescending. I would love to hear more Fair-and-Lovely controversies that are placed squarely in India. Skin color is first and foremost, a cosmetic concern for the vast majority. But maybe I am wrong. Maybe it is simply so, for the vast majority of the Indians I know.

When it seems to someone that you got lighter (I really don't think this is the case, perhaps when your complexion is clearer they perceive it as lighter?), they say that 'rangu vocchindhi' (you got some color). And if you got darker, 'rangu poyindhi' (the color left you).

I think it means the pink tones that are more visible with lighter skin. Tho a few fair-skinned Indians (including myself) have to slather on blush and tan shades because they look really pale without it.

im not g*y, so grls, or g*y guys would need to chime in on this one

any reason you censured the word gay?

am i the only guy that doesnt find makeup attractive?

not sure if the word somehow gets picked out of corporate filters.

"My bet is that movies like Danny Boyle's planned "Slum Dog Millionaire" "

This guy is good. Millions was fantastic.

About the "Innocent Divorcee", in Punjab it usually was taken to mean that the girl is sexually innocent, a virgin and implied this was becuase the guy was, how should I put it, unable to fulfill his matrimonial duties, hence the divorce.

About the "Innocent Divorcee", in Punjab it usually was taken to mean that the girl is sexually innocent, a virgin and implied this was becuase the guy was, how should I put it, unable to fulfill his matrimonial duties, hence the divorce.

well. every grl says she's an "innocent divorcee". am i to believe that like 99% of divorces are casued by a lack of viagra?

well. every grl says she's an "innocent divorcee". am i to believe that like 99% of divorces are casued by a lack of viagra?

i mean, every divorced grl.

But the question is, does Fair & Lovely actually work?

a lot of the studio pics on s.com have exactly that happening. the grl is standing in a blindling light. makes her look lighter.

This is so true. My friend's family sent him the picture of a girl taken by a professional and she looked light skinned. Later she sent a picture of her taken at home and she looks much darker. My friend is in two minds about meeting her. All I had to say was, let her move to the US and start drinking juices by the gallon and spend winters in the north-east and she'll look like picture 1 ;-).

Also, my mother is convinced that there's something in the water in New York that makes me darker when I'm here and lighter when I'm in India (even though I'm out in the sun more often in India). Um, anyone else's mothers think like this?

I don't know. My Mom thinks Texas sun has done more harm than good for my skin. When I lived in Ohio, my Mom was happy that I was getting fairer, but now she's convinced that I should move out of Texas or she can't find a guy for me.

--You don't see anything pathological about a whole nation of people wanting to change a primary racial characteristic, but many of us do

louiecypher..i don't see any problem with anyone doing something to look good...be it fair and lovely or botox or anything else for that matter!

But the question is, does Fair & Lovely actually work?

im not even sure that actually matters in the world of consumer products. as my marketing professor used to say "perception is reality"

Speaking of keeping up appearances for the other sex,do ABD men shave/wax/pluck-ze-follicles their chests?

Most DBD men I know take the hirsute route so wonder whether we will see a Gillette ad for chest shaving cream.

Mmmmm creammmmmmm.

LotR,
NAIR my friend!

I don't know. My Mom thinks Texas sun has done more harm than good for my skin. When I lived in Ohio, my Mom was happy that I was getting fairer, but now she's convinced that I should move out of Texas or she can't find a guy for me.

a lot of guys are bid on non-pale grls.

Meanwhile gora's are obsessed with getting golden brown tans.

Fake Bake - sun tanning industry earned $4.2 billions in 2000
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4021/is_2001_Sept_1/ai_78426782

am i the only guy that doesnt find makeup attractive?

No. I strongly believe that people who use makeup should also have the sense to decide what to wear and how much to apply, for the sake of everyone's sanity and well-being. I myself have several colleagues of the female persuasion who slather on their stuff with a shovel, looking positively ghastly at the end of it. But at least the effect is transmitted only on light waves, so it doesn't turn corners. Much more annoying than makeup is overuse of perfume or cologne. It has been my experience that the person who finds a subtle fragrance too expensive will compensate by applying too much of a cheap perfume which does its best to announce the person's arrival 30 feet away by burning everyone's noses. At the end of this olfactory assault, I can't even smell the curd rice and mango pickle I brought for lunch because a colleague has apparently swum to work in a stream of cheap scent.

Ever noticed how on sites like Shaadi.com, people will tick off the "wheatish" complexion box even when you can tell from their photographs that they're darker than sin? (And please don't take that comparison out of context--I'm a brown skinned lady who loves my non-veetish looks!) Perhaps they think possible suitors will relegate their appearance to bad lighting?

NAIR my friend!

As a milky-white white guy ("duddhu"?) with an unexplainable preference for dark skin (I must be brown on the inside), I've always found these lightening products strange and pointless. Not only is brown beautiful, it looks a hell of a lot more healthy than the typical pale, pasty, nearly translucent European skin tone. White people know this, even if only unconsciously, or they wouldn't be out in the sun giving themselves melanoma all the time. If only those aunties with colorism problems would figure it out.

LotR, NAIR my friend!

What does this have to do with Malayalees?

LotR, NAIR my friend!

You mean a hairy mallu? The hair-raising adventures of Mammooty?

Perhaps they think possible suitors will relegate their appearance to bad lighting?

the thing about on line mate selection is that you can set hard and fast filters. if you click "dark", you are filtered out of a lot of guys searches reducing your pool of potential mates. therefore, if you click "wheatish" you come up more often. if you are not rejected by the filter, maybe your picture will attract some guy that would not even see your picture otherwise. its the same reason guys lie about their height and income on these sites. (not that i am condoning lying. i just put my height and income as is on there)

"a lot of guys are bid on non-pale grls."

Looks like I showed up right on time. For once.

Fairness creams are also popular in the United States, FYI, among non-desi people--but it's funny how they get marketed in different ways. They never profess to lighten your complexion; rather, the creams profess to "brighten" your skin and make it more translucent. This also means getting rid of hyperpigmentation (dark spots caused by hormone fluctuations and sun damage), which is actually close to impossible (trust me, I've used the best of the best ointments out there). It seems particularly nefarious that although they don't say they'll lighten dark complexions, the majority of people who use them are specifically looking to do that--the implication being that dark skin in and of itself is THE ultimate blemish. I wonder if some of these companies in the U.S. (like L'oreal) were brought under pressure to change their advertising messages so that colorism wasn't so blatantly front and center?

who slather on their stuff with a shovel, looking positively ghastly at the end of it

Yup, girls with cake on their faces looking like ghosts. And guys need to take it easy on the colognes, go to a desi party and all you'll smell is Acqua di Gio mixed w/ J&J baby powder!

im a big fan of comfortable normal looking humans. in general.

what happens if a white chick uses fairness cream?

louiecypher..i don't see any problem with anyone doing something to look good

"Arya"....I see that looking fair is "looking good". Demented people are usually the last to know that they are demented. Very appropriate handle you've chosen

Where is Rahul? HAve not heard from him on this whole thread yet..Rahul, the virtual harem is getting restless...

(perception of) Body image seems to be an international phenomenon, though Photoshop seems a better bet than F&L - at least till you meet someone IRL.

In all fairness (pun fully intended), knocking our pale-skinned brothers and sisters ain't right. For me, skin that is soft, hydrated, and healthy can come in all kinds of hues. I once knew a Danish woman who had extremely delicate, extremely white skin--which I think is also pathologized to a certain extent, but of course, not on the same level as dark skin--and I thought she was absolutely beautiful, although I definitely wouldn't want to be her in hot, humid climes...

what happens if a white chick uses fairness cream?
she would turn into Mr. India

Where is Rahul?

that guy hasnt been on in a long time.

what happens if a white chick uses fairness cream? she would turn into Mr. India

No no, to become invisible, she must not use fairness cream. She must use vanishing cream.

L-We are talking at 2 different levels. You are at a much lower level than I am so I am just going to leave it here! Enjoy!

a lot of guys are bid on non-pale grls.

am i the only guy that doesnt find makeup attractive?

Yay, there is still hope for me! I am allergic to most makeup, so I never try any. I used to think that guys like the barbie dolls that flood most desi parties.

The double standards in indian society kill me.. the guy has to be all wheatish and slim..handsome
but the girl can be dark..fat and ulgy.

You are at a much lower level than I am

wait...what "level" are we supposed to be on? i admire your "level" soooo much. i wish i could be on your "level"....

that guys like the barbie dolls that flood most desi parties.

they do. but they also like other kinds of grls. perhaps the guys that hang out around barbie doll grls at parties wont like any other type. but, there are more types of guys out there than you can find at desi parties.

The double standards in indian society kill me.. the guy has to be all wheatish and slim..handsome but the girl can be dark..fat and ulgy.

thats not how i always understood it. i think pressure on looks is much more on grls. i think pressure on height and income is on guys. if you have had a different experience, pl share.

they do. but they also like other kinds of grls. perhaps the guys that hang out around barbie doll grls at parties wont like any other type. but, there are more types of guys out there than you can find at desi parties.

if a guy is only attaracted to makeup and b00bs, you can do better.

We are who we are - Personally, for me someone being fair or dark doesn't equate to anything. Ugly people come in all colors just as beautiful people do.

Meanwhile gora's are obsessed with getting golden brown tans.

Not just goras...

A quick semi funny story (to me at least): I had an aunt visiting from Delhi for a couple weeks. My other Punjabi friend and I decided to go to the beach one day to relax, get a tan, etc. A day or two later, my aunt looks at me and says, "You know you did get a bit of a tan." I said, "Word". And then she goes, "But don't worry - if you stay inside for a few days, you'll get better." I replied, "I'm not sick..." (Mentally sticking out my tongue - but not IRL). And then I helped her understand that my friend and I went to the beach *in order to* get a tan. She had the most confused look on her face. And then when my mother further explained that people in the US pay *money* to get darker, it just blew my aunt's mind. She said, "Wow things really *are* different here, huh..." But she's good humored about it - not that she was going to think any differently, but she at least was able to accept that a different mindset can exist which is better than all the aunties and uncles I know who try to convince my friends, relatives, and me that we should believe what they say about boys wanting fair-skinned girls more than dark girls because "everybody thinks this way".

i also like that us women apparently only get 'aam' (ordinary) fairness creams, which are insufficient for the men.

I wonder if at least some % age of the people who buy this product do it to restore their "original skin color and not to change it completely.

I always thought most of the "colorism" onus has been placed on women, not men. Like, it's important to marry a light-skinned girl to help your kids turn out lighter. I actually don't care if SRK is endorsing the cream, and I think we could talk for years about colorism in India and what it means (is it a colonial remnant? a product of fetishizing an Iranian beauty ideal? Arya-philia? North vs. South? class?). What I think is more interesting is that they're now trying to take a standard often applied to women with respect to beauty and braodening their market by opening it to men. This seems kind of strange to me, but maybe because I've never heard of the idea of "lightening up" a guy. For those who keep fixating on the individual effect, I think there is a broader aesthetic/social trend, be it produced or already prevalent. It's worth thinking of it in a larger context instead of automatically discounting it.

MN, don't get your knickers bunched up. Fascism is a bit extreme, and I don't think anyone's calling for a ban. That said, I think the outcry would be similar if someone of a similar fame-level was advocating lightening creams for POC here in the U.S.

oh yeah, what exactly does 'wheatish' entail? me, i'm more the color of barley myself.

which is better than all the aunties and uncles I know who try to convince my friends, relatives, and me that we should believe what they say about boys wanting fair-skinned girls more than dark girls because "everybody thinks this way".

u must get a lot of adoration from said aunties.

The double standards in indian society kill me.. the guy has to be all wheatish and slim..handsome but the girl can be dark..fat and ulgy.

I think you should maybe take a look at the pictures from the "success stories" on shaadi.com - you'll see a much different picture...

u must get a lot of adoration from said aunties.

Not quite. Because I was never skinny, and I'm not tall, what I got from the aunties was, "Well at least you're fair..."

But they love my personality. :)

Well at least you're fair...

You are at a much lower level than I am wait...what "level" are we supposed to be on? i admire your "level" soooo much. i wish i could be on your "level"....

I'm a dark rakshasa interrupting "Arya's" austerities in the forests. How is he to obtain moksha with a demonic Lemurian giving him wet willies and replacing his ghee with ear wax ?

But they love my personality. :)

Ok, I give up. What is this a euphemism for? For guys I know - "I have a huge personality" speaks for itself, but for women I can't think what aunties look for.

i think there should be an arb available in the marriage market for darker skinned grls. i.e. one (by the sound of things) should be able to meet a disproportionately attractive darker skinned grl on a matrimonial site. like a bolllywood looking chick + a few skin shades darker. i.e. all the skin shade snobs claw at each other over the light skinned grl, so one can get a darker sl*mmin h0ttie.

emonic Lemurian giving him wet willies and replacing his ghee with ear wax ?

Damn, I wish I had paid more attention when family elders were narrating this sort of mythology to me.

So much for light-skinned ni**az never coming back into style

I can't think what aunties look for

yikes...aunties talk about the size of a guys "persionality"? geez. i always thought they were talking about prescence and stuff when they talk about "personality". oh god. thats messed up.

i think there should be an arb available in the marriage market for darker skinned grls

Arb = Arbitrage?

Please tell me you're not building a case for the existence of a Nash equilibrium.

Okay I just used this product and so far I have banged 6 women, I tried paying for gas but the person refused my money and said "it's on the house", a fight broke out between cab drivers and who was going to drive me around, I got a pamphlet in the mail explaing how I should handle my new color, and all of the sudden I have a uncontrolable urge to play volleyball and frisbee and a voice in my had keeps telling me to shop at the GAP.

Now if you excuse me I have a sun tanning appointment that I am late to.

...at least was able to accept that a different mindset can exist which is better than all the aunties and uncles I know who try to convince my friends, relatives, and me that we should believe what they say about boys wanting fair-skinned girls more than dark girls because "everybody thinks this way".

I'd like to have a few words with those oh-so-wrong relatives. Especially if they're making any lovely dark-skinned daughters or nieces feel bad about themselves.

Okay I just used this product and so far I have banged 6 women, I tried paying for gas but the person refused my money and said "it's on the house", a fight broke out between cab drivers and who was going to drive me around, I got a pamphlet in the mail explaing how I should handle my new color, and all of the sudden I have a uncontrolable urge to play volleyball and frisbee and a voice in my had keeps telling me to shop at the GAP. Now if you excuse me I have a sun tanning appointment that I am late to

Arb = Arbitrage?

Please tell me you're not building a case for the existence of a Nash equilibrium.

yes. arb = arbitrage. im not trying to build a case for anything. im just trying to get more high quality play.

"everybody thinks this way".

i think the hwole reason mating works is that people think in different ways.

For the record, I, too, miss Rahul.

But the question is, does Fair & Lovely actually work?

This is so true. My friend's family sent him the picture of a girl taken by a professional and she looked light skinned. Later she sent a picture of her taken at home and she looks much darker.

NAIR my friend! $hit. now im supposed to get painful leg lengthening procedures done, and regular hair removal? what the heck is going on around here?

Much more annoying than makeup is overuse of perfume or cologne.

Satya, I get the impression that "lightening" creams in the U.S., except for those pitched to minority communities, are for dark spots/hyperpigmentation -- i.e. things that make your complexion uneven, not your overall complexion itself. Most of these don't actually lighten, they just speed up exfoliation.

Ok, I give up. What is this a euphemism for? For guys I know - "I have a huge personality" speaks for itself, but for women I can't think what aunties look for.

Well the aunties I'm talking about like me because we just get along very well. We have good conversation and we give each other a lot of love.

But I've noticed that desi aunties and uncles in general, when they say someone has a lot of personality, they're really just referring to them being good looking. It took me a long time to figure that one out.

although a little removal of the unibrow

no unibrow here. although that did remind me of something one of my male friends wives (also a friend) told me. she mentioned that her husband was getting waxed before the wedding. I said "isnt that like getting a hot candle poured onto yur body, then having duct tape ripped off your hairy skin? That sound slike it hurts."

her memorable response? She shrugs and says "love hurts"

Camille:

actually don't care if SRK is endorsing the cream, and I think we could talk for years about colorism in India and what it means (is it a colonial remnant? a product of fetishizing an Iranian beauty ideal? Arya-philia? North vs. South? class?).

I definitely believe that it existed before Central Asian Islamic & European colonialism, but to what extent I don't know. I do see an initial basis in Iranian/Arya diffusion into India, but it was probably softened by intermarriage. Somehow many Indian academics seem to place all the blame on Europeans

they're really just referring to them being good looking

thats like when they say a "good family" they mean "rich parents"

when they say "well settled" that means "rich boy"

But I've noticed that desi aunties and uncles in general, when they say someone has a lot of personality, they're really just referring to them being good looking. It took me a long time to figure that one out.

Would someone who is physically attractive yet quiet and reserved still be considered having a lot of personality?

loucie,

Agreed -- I think it's convenient to say that it derives from the British presence, but -- at least in the north -- even before the British there was an aesthetic preference for lighter, "Iranian" looking skin. I don't know if it was like 1800s China where lighter skin == higher class status (i.e. not in the fields) or what, but it's easy to blame the Brits.

Would someone who is physically attractive yet quiet and reserved still be considered having a lot of personality?

someone who is handsome and an obnoxious d!ck has "great personality". remember. people use the euphamisms to not sound shallow.

Buddhu:

I'd like to have a few words with those oh-so-wrong relatives. Especially if they're making any lovely dark-skinned daughters or nieces feel bad about themselves.

I had an experience like that a couple weekends ago with a cousin of mine and her parents talking smack about boys not wanting dark girls. There were words.

Would someone who is physically attractive yet quiet and reserved still be considered having a lot of personality?

According to aunties? Yes.

I do see an initial basis in Iranian/Arya diffusion into India, but it was probably softened by intermarriage.

This diffusion myth, sadly prevalent after so many years, we can definitely blame on the British. (can of worms: opened)

According to aunties? Yes.

Why limit it to aunties

Why limit it to aunties

Because the uncles don't really tell me about the guys they think are hot.

Because the uncles don't really tell me about the guys they think are hot.

hardy har har har. I meant other women.

Because the uncles don't really tell me about the guys they think are hot.

the uncles dont give a $hit. bothering 20 something year old kids gives the aunties something to do.

Nala, i know what you are talking about Telugu families making comments like "Rangu vachindi" you got color when you become fairer. My mother will make comments about others in a good way, but my sister and I used to berate her for doing that. Maybe we were too harsh on her. Now we just nod her heads and just give her a stare when she make some of those commments. But at least it worked to the extent that I cannot even remember the last time my mom made a color related comment about me or my sister.

I remember going to India and some uncle told me bluntly " oh how nice. you became so fair." and then there would be a pause like I am supposed to be so happy that he made such a comment. Then he would go on "you used to be very dark when you lived in India" . (I change colors very easily. I was average brown as a kid in the US, then became nearly Rajnikanth dark after moving to India, and back to my regular average brown after moving back to the US).

Out of curiosity, buddhu, why do you think the "diffusion myth" is a myth? I've heard a plethora of arguments from scholars about this, but it's interesting to me how lots of browns see the Aryan/Dravidian split as a given. For some reason, whenever someone implicitly or explicitly posits the idea of a racial dichotomy, it gives me this weird, queasy feeling.

hardy har har har. I meant other women.

well. i think auntie is an especially proactive species in terms of determining optimal behavior to get the nice spouse of their dreams for u.

the uncles dont give a $hit.

I wouldn't assume that either. They just don't talk about it with young single women like myself, is all.

Are we at 400 comments yet??
Wont take long :-)

i think auntie is an especially proactive species in terms of determining optimal behavior to get the nice spouse of their dreams for u.

yes, but using physical attraction to obfuscate and cover up negative personality traits (reserved and quiet) is not aunty-specific.

All I want to know is whether the scientists have isolated the genes that allows a chameleon to change colors and where's the research to make it happen in humans. I want pink, red, blue, green, mauve, orange - why stop at white, brown or black? :)

yes, but using physical attraction to obfuscate and cover up negative personality traits

but this specific euphamistic matrimonial language that is used to make aunties sound less shallow is. so is bugging you about if your too dark to find a nice man.

I do see an initial basis in Iranian/Arya diffusion into India, but it was probably softened by intermarriage. This diffusion myth, sadly prevalent after so many years, we can definitely blame on the British. (can of worms: opened)

I agree that the AIT has been disproven, but Arya diffusion (as opposed to "invasion') is definitely not considered a myth by most academics working with genetics & linguitics. Where the colonial era Europeans were wrong is placing the homeland in Western Europe instead of Iran/Caspian sea region. That being said, people get it all wrong when they analyze all of Indian history through the simplistic Arya/Dravida race dialectic. Anyway, whether or not we agree on the early history of India it is clear from your comments that you celebrate all of the physical diversity in India so it's all cool.

Sarah: You're right, we should definitely all keep our mouths shut from now on.

If you don't have anything good to say...

Camille:MN, don't get your knickers bunched up. Fascism is a bit extreme, and I don't think anyone's calling for a ban

Trust me, you don't want me to get nasty...

In case folks haven't noticed: The crux of Vinod's post is not about fairness obsession or usage of lightness creams per se, but that Shah Rukh Khan is coming under pressure to abandon his controversial endorsement of a men’s skin-lightening cream. That being the case, talk of fascism and banning is perfectly valid in this context, more so than "my auntie/uncle used this Telugu phrase...". The word "abandon" has its roots in the word "ban".

So enough with the sermonising on what's extreme and what's normal.

M. Nam

I want this pronto. I was in the process of finding ways to unleash my dormant Scythian glory and as luck would have it, comes along this.

Trust me, you don't want me to get nasty...

In case folks haven't noticed: The crux of Vinod's post is not about fairness obsession or usage of lightness creams per se, but that Shah Rukh Khan is coming under pressure to abandon his controversial endorsement of a men’s skin-lightening cream. That being the case, talk of fascism and banning is perfectly valid in this context, more so than "my auntie/uncle used this Telugu phrase...". The word "abandon" has its roots in the word "ban".

So enough with the sermonising on what's extreme and what's normal.

note to self. *moor nam must be the first one up agaist the wall when my fascist revolution comes. he is not likely to submit to puli rule*

Out of curiosity, buddhu, why do you think the "diffusion myth" is a myth?

I'm working on a fairly in-depth paper on the "Indo-Aryan question" and have been studying the most recent research on the matter, and this is the conclusion I've come to. The clincher for me was this 2006 paper ("A prehistory of Indian Y chromosomes: Evaluating demic diffusion scenarios", which I believe was discussed on SM before) and one or two others like it. The major flaw I see in nearly every argument I've encountered, whether on the side of the standard Aryan migration hypothesis or in the "Out of India" side of things, is the conflation of language diffusion with demic diffusion. Language can spread in various ways and for various reasons; it doesn't require significant movement of populations from one place to another.

The silly idea of light-skinned nomads entering the subcontinent and imposing caste based on skin color was invented whole cloth by the British. There is simply no evidence whatsoever to support it, and there never was. Though there has certainly always been considerable contact with Iran/Afghanistan (I like D.Chakrabarti's term "Indus-Oxus orbit"), archaeogenetics suggests a relatively homogeneous genetic picture going back to the original peopling of the subcontinent.

MN, I think the problem is that you're failing to differentiate between social pressure and legal bans. Nobody but nobody is calling for a ban on the product or the ads. People are calling SRK out on something they think is wrong. The pressure comes from their disapproval/anger, not from any governmental source. It's social pressure, people speaking out about what they think, and if you were to stop people from doing that, THAT would be a step toward fascism. Loud and vigorous public debate seems to be a characteristic of democracy, IMO.

Here's an example from my own life:

When Mr. Rogers died a few years ago, half the city of Pittsburgh came out for his funeral, because pretty much everybody knew him in one way or another. A few days before the funeral, Fred Phelps, the founder of the anti-gay hate group God Hates F@gs, announced plans to picket the funeral service with anti-gay slogans, because Mr. Rogers supported equal rights for gay people. Of course, he has a legal right to do that, so nobody tried to get a restraining order, or otherwise shut down his protest using the legal system. Instead, about 200 people showed up in cardigans, encircled the tiny group of haters, and sang Mr. Rogers' songs loudly enough to drown out the hate and slurs. Is that fascism, or democracy?

Shah Rukh Khan is coming under pressure to abandon his controversial endorsement of a men’s skin-lightening cream

The bolding. The underlining. The saga continues.

When I was a kid, I remember occasionally incidents where some Indian friend or relative in India would roll up their sleeves or unbutton their shirt and say "this is my real color" as if the lighter skin was supposed to improve our perception of them.

Nothing wrong with people who prefer a fairer complexion. But in India, it seems overbearing. I said it before. Look at the complexion of Indians who have made it in entertainment in the US and UK compared to the Indians in Bollywood. The Indians in the US do not try to lighten their skin (nAveen Andrews , Mindy Kaling, Parminder, Jay Chandrasekhar, Sarita Chowdury).

I think fairness creams are like the hair straightening chemicals in the African American world. I do not find it appealing when African American women straighten their hair unless someone can do an excellent job with it. It looks lifeless. I like the older sister in Fresh prince like loose style or even the 70s Afro. I was one of those who actually thought the Afro looked cool. I am still amazed that some have the patience for weaves. I know in some African American families, the grandmas are known to tell their grandkids who have straighter hair that they had "good hair". Though I guess there is also a practical reason for saying that as it could be less hard to manage. So not an exact analogy to our situation.

Instead, about 200 people showed up in cardigans, encircled the tiny group of haters, and sang Mr. Rogers' songs loudly enough to drown out the hate and slurs. Is that fascism, or democracy?

It's beautiful, whatever else it may be.

Here's an example from my own life:

How is this from your own life?

In case folks haven't noticed: The crux of Vinod's post is not about fairness obsession or usage of lightness creams per se, but that Shah Rukh Khan is coming under pressure to abandon his controversial endorsement of a men’s skin-lightening cream. That being the case, talk of fascism and banning is perfectly valid in this context, more so than "my auntie/uncle used this Telugu phrase...". The word "abandon" has its roots in the word "ban".

So enough with the sermonising on what's extreme and what's normal.

M. Nam

I read the article...is anyone doing more than taking him to task for this ? Yes he's coming under pressure of a potentially economic sort, but who exactly is suggesting that they put his wheatish/upwardly mobile balls in a vise ? Perhaps you have been articulating concerns about more obvious signs of impending fascism (e.g. MF Hussain, Orkut in Mumbai) in other venues, but in isolation these comments make you look like a crank

Instead, about 200 people showed up in cardigans, encircled the tiny group of haters, and sang Mr. Rogers' songs loudly enough to drown out the hate and slurs.

what would be even better:

a bunch of rappers came and sang a remixed hip-hop version of his song.

Its a be-be-be-be autiful day. day day, yeah uh bring it.. in this mothaF8ckin neighbor-hoo ohohohhoh hoooood.

It's beautiful, whatever else it may be.

I think so too.

How is this from your own life?

D'oh! Neglected to explain that... Mr. Rogers was connected with my college, and the organizers of the cardigan brigade were good friends of mine. (I wanted badly to be there, but had graduated and was living the penniless-grad-student life in NYC at the time, and couldn't afford the ticket!)

Mr. Rogers was connected with my college

cmu?

a bunch of rappers came and sang a remixed hip-hop version of his song.

That's got to exist somewhere already.

And if it doesn't, it TOTALLY should.

Mr. Rogers was connected with my college cmu?

Chatham!

(But I spent a lot of time at CMU and Pitt. Good times.)

Sarah #183,

Ok - now we're both speaking the same language...

Social pressure is good, as long as it is not applied to individuals. By all means, educate people about this issue. Start with the children in schools - teach them to take pride in who they are. Educate them to be themselves and not try to be someone else.

However, don't put pressure on one individual in your quest to reform society. Why should SRK shoulder the burden of changing the public's mores, especially at personal monetary expense? If this is not a step towards fascism, then what is?

M. Nam

There was an uproar when SRK did the LUX ad also. People thought it was too effeminate of him to sit in a tub full of water sprinkled with roses. I say let him make his money while he is still young.

Thank goodness some Indians are in an uproar over SRK and this stupid ad. I'd just hate to know no one in India is protesting over this - I'm all for protesting and putting pressure and I'm anti-fascist to boot .

I mean, god what's wrong with Bollywood. You know Bollywood honored Danny Glover recently? What does SRK think he is doing supporting something stupid like this --- it'll only reduce Bollywood's appeal worldwide. Why honor someone like Danny Glover and then say something really wrong with black Americans looks until they use fair and lovely.

Yes, there's nothing wrong with preferring different looks, but most Indians are brown or else have some brown family members, so it's more a ethnic characteristic and not preferring someone who is tall or short, and so an ad and products like this are just harmful to the Indian psyche, and harmful to the skin (at least that's my understanding). It's like having ads that told you with black hair your just not as beautiful as a blond and so you have to change your hair color. Now if I was a Bollywood actor, I'd demean these fair and lovely creams and then I'm sure the market for them would go down.

If this is not a step towards fascism, then what is?

people goose stepping around a large bon fire with large numbers of couples fornicating in synchronous with large banners with pictures of puliogre and thiyre sadu decking the public square. the revolution is coming.

However, don't put pressure on one individual in your quest to reform society. Why should SRK shoulder the burden of changing the public's mores, especially at personal monetary expense? If this is not a step towards fascism, then what is?

Because Shah Rukh is the one who decided to do said commercial. It's called taking responsibility. He's a public figure and a grownup, he can handle it. Nobody's putting him in jail.

Here is a definition of fascism:

(ahem)

Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests subordinate to the needs of the state, and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on, but not limited to, ethnic, cultural, or racial attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, authoritarianism, statism, militarism, corporatism, populism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, and opposition to economic and political liberalism.

nationalism, authoritarianism, statism, militarism, corporatism, populism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, and opposition to economic and political liberalism.

worshipping me as a god king is just my little twist on fascism.

If this is not a step towards fascism, then what is?

Your point might be a bit less easily dismissed if you weren't using a slippery slope argument.

However, don't put pressure on one individual in your quest to reform society. Why should SRK shoulder the burden of changing the public's mores,

As Sarah said, he's a public figure and very influential. It's up to the Indian public to put pressure on him if he's promoting things that harm our society and they (the public) don't like it. It's very smart of them to go after a public figure like that too.

However, don't put pressure on one individual in your quest to reform society. Why should SRK shoulder the burden of changing the public's mores, especially at personal monetary expense? If this is not a step towards fascism, then what is?

PS, I agree with you. I think that people go on ad nauseam about how fair skin is a personal preference, but when it's a preference that negates the reality of the cultural majority (in this case, India's ubiquitous, non-veetish brownies), that preference is indubitably rooted in internalized racism. I am curious, however, as to whether or not attitudes toward dark skin were radically different before the arrival of the British.

This has nothing to do with anything but, Sarah, I think "The Cardigan Brigade" would be an incredible band name. :)

Your point might be a bit less easily dismissed if you weren't using a slippery slope argument.

dont you see? it IS a slippery slope. one day protesting celebrities and skin cream. the next day god-king puli and his lemurian storm troopers.

worshipping me as a god king is just my little twist on fascism.

Sorry, Overlord Puli, didn't mean to neglect that bit. I swear. No need to send goons.

I prefer the personal touch you only get with hired goons. - C. Montgomery Burns

Not to be a total asshole, but I think SRK is kinda ugly.

I prefer the personal touch you only get with hired goons. - C. Montgomery Burns

i love that line.

Not to be a total asshole, but I think SRK is kinda ugly.

my mom also says that.

I think "The Cardigan Brigade" would be an incredible band name. :)

You are SO right.

but I think SRK is kinda ugly.

I think this is why I'm so upset over SRK - not only do I find him hot but he's the good guy, the antithesis of Salman Kahn (Khan?) and I want to think the best of him. Damn! This is like when I find out Jordan was an adulterer. It just ruins my image of my celebrity.

I wouldn't support legal action to make SRK withdraw support for this commercial (that's just ridiculous). But if his fans have trouble with it and protest/make him aware of what they think the problem with it is, I don't see what the problem is. Definitely not fascism. He is a public figure. And skin color is a loaded topic. Not as much in India right now since the light=superior mentality is so prevalent, but if stuff like SRK taking flak for this is what is needed to get more people talking/questioning [though I'm not sure to what extent that's happening in India, I wouldn't know], then that can only be a good thing.

Shah Rukh Khan is so visibly "Pathan" or "Pashtoon" that he has not a whole lot in common ethnically to a majority of India. So SRK representing India is a problem in itself.

anyone ever notice that Shah Rukh Khan is Benecio Del Toro?

It's up to the Indian public to put pressure on him if he's promoting things that harm our society and they (the public) don't like it. It's very smart of them to go after a public figure like that too.

i think they are going after SRK because he is one guy and a celebrity - easier target. this is a much easier job for them than changing the attitude of an entire society. if society didn't agree with the theory behind this ad, they would have nothing to worry about, and the product would not sell. i'm pretty sure most of the public have no issue with either his ad, or the existence of such products. since they can't do anything about a section of society comprising hundreds of millions, they go after him. in one way, they are using their resources thriftily - but if they are really devoted to their cause, they would look to change the attitude of the public in general that shares this view, not to one celebrity.

Shah Rukh Khan is so visibly "Pathan" or "Pashtoon" that he has not a whole lot in common ethnically to a majority of India. So SRK representing India is a problem in itself.

What? SRK looks like a typical Indian to me.

oof, agreed, PS. RC just opened a big ol' can of worms in #212 about who is 'authentically' Indian and who is not.

What? SRK looks like a typical Indian to me.

oof, agreed, PS. RC just opened a big ol' can of worms in #212 about who is 'authentically' Indian and who is not.

SRK is not authentically indian because he is actually Benecio Del Toro. ;-)

Those who've lived in India, Have you ever noticed that Sun screen lotions there are marketed on the same premise ?
That you wont get a tan/ darken and maintain your Fair skin complexion ?? remember that lisa ray commercial ?

I think more than 90% of ppl (mostly women) there use it for this reason. I always thought Sun Screens are used to block UV rays and prevent harmful damage to your skin and not for preventing you from getting a tan (complexion) to your skin. Maybe I am wrong. Being a guy, I ve always found sun screens too oily/icky to use no matter however long I am out in the sun. What I've noticed is your complexion comes back to its original color in a couple of weeks after your long day out in the sun... well except if you've tanned for a prolonged period of time... usually days at a stretch..

So whats up with the Desi Girls going for a "tan" at the beach ? I just dont get it. You are already brown honey...Why risk your skin to UV exposure just because the white chicks do it? They want to get brown.. and you ?

At any rate, we should get together and we could microbrew together what with all this extra grain :)

VOW!! Camille, you managed to link a disucssion about skin color with beer drinking, AWESOME! :D

So whats up with the Desi Girls going for a "tan" at the beach ? I just dont get it. You are already brown honey...Why risk your skin to UV exposure just because the white chicks do it? They want to get brown.. and you ?

i think people look different when they have been out in the sun a bit. i dont mean just getting darker. changes something else with the skin. cant put my finger on it.

im dark and can't get girls...luckly i'll be going to india later this year..
I'll get some of this stuff.. and let you all know how it worked..

ak,

since they can't do anything about a section of society comprising hundreds of millions, they go after him.

I think you are missing the point - b/c he is a public figure it is smart for say a campaign that protests against fair and lovely's use, to target him ---- By targetting him you target thousands and millions of other people. Same reason why the stupid fair and lovely company wanted SRK to be their spokesperson. Damn SRK - thought he was more enlightened than this.

puli - their skin looks a bit ruddy, or muddled. i think it has to do with the change in exfoliation rates when you tan, as well as the fact that people are naturally their skin colour for a reason - their skin sometimes just does not tan in a natural way.

So whats up with the Desi Girls going for a "tan" at the beach ? I just dont get it. You are already brown honey...Why risk your skin to UV exposure just because the white chicks do it? They want to get brown.. and you ?

I love the feel of sun on my skin and I like the way I look with a little extra color. That said, I always wear sunscreen when at the beach etc. But I am guilty of not always reapplying after going in the water.

And now that I'm 30 *GASP!* I have become obsessed about facial skincare and wear lotion with sunscreen on my face everyday. Somehow, I get carded even more than when I was younger, and I'm not just talking the courtesy card, the are you seriously trying to buy a beer because you are so underaged card. I've had bartenders eyes pop out when they see how old I am. So the benefit to having dark skin is not being as suspectible to skin damage and always looking younger than your age.

"So whats up with the Desi Girls going for a "tan" at the beach ? I just dont get it. You are already brown honey...Why risk your skin to UV exposure just because the white chicks do it? They want to get brown.. and you ?"

Going to the beach, sitting around by the pool etc doesn't mean people necessarily are there to tan , it's just soaking up beach 'culture' . Anyhow the brown glow looks nice and it fades after a few weeks.
Nowadays the sunblocks come in SPF 30 / 50 and in a spray format so not sticky at all and it has a cooling effect in fact.

I'm worried about about the slipery slope to Fascism too. First they came for the smokers...though I suspect Bollywood will soon have its own version of the aptly named Fairness Doctrine.

---- By targetting him you target thousands and millions of other people.

By targetting him you target thousands and millions of other people.

by the time im done, you will KNOW what "targeting thousands and millions of other people" looks like...

by the time im done, you will KNOW what "targeting thousands and millions of other people" looks like...

in seriousness. why are people using big words like "fascism". i mean, were not talking about Germany in 1936 here. fascism is a serious issue, and this just kills real discussion on the topic if people bandy the word around a lot.

oof, agreed, PS. RC just opened a big ol' can of worms in #212 about who is 'authentically' Indian and who is not.

Not to worry. His can of worms is also OFF-TOPIC and further comments encouraging such lunacy will be nuked with prejudice.

in seriousness. why are people using big words like "fascism".

controlling the language is the 1st step toward fascism. i'm on to you, pulli.

don't necessarily agree. the celebrity angle seems to work when promoting or agreeing with an already widely-held belief in society, or something about which people are indifferent. i'm not sure it works the other way around - i think a celebrity merely stepping down from promoting this product, or even coming out and saying preference of fairer skin is wrong

I really disagree; It'd be great if SRK stepped down from this campaign if he or another celebrity conveyed the idea that Indians can be dark and beautiful. It puts a message out there and the potential to influence thousands.

Compare it to the civil rights movment. There was a time when discrimination was accepted. When you had someone like Frank Sinatra (however superficially) be friends with African Americans, it has a strong potential to make society as a whole see things differently. Media and public figures are influential and can help change popular culture.

I'm worried about about the slipery slope to Fascism too. First they came for the smokers...

The thing about smoking, and I smoke, is that there is a strong link between second hand smoking and health problems for nonsmokers. So don't have a problem with going after actors who endorse such a crap habit that affects people who don't have that crap habit.

The thing that shocked me as I grew older was that Indians and blacks could get sunburned. I have been out in the sun several times and have never experienced sunburn - not once. Am I a freak of nature? I just get darker. 10 shades darker. Seriously, my color range is like the Cosby Show family sibilings. I once got a heat stroke in india as I wsa playing with my cousins in 110 degree heat.

The thing about smoking, and I smoke, is that there is a strong link between second hand smoking and health problems for nonsmokers. So don't have a problem with going after actors who endorse such a crap habit that affects people who don't have that crap habit.

people talk about their right to smoke, and thats all well and good, but what about my right ot breath?

The thing that shocked me as I grew older was that Indians and blacks could get sunburned. I have been out in the sun several times and have never experienced sunburn - not once. Am I a freak of nature? I just get darker. 10 shades darker. Seriously, my color range is like the Cosby Show family sibilings. I once got a heat stroke in india as I wsa playing with my cousins in 110 degree heat.

ive never burned either. when al gores nightmares come true, we will be the last remaining humans on earth.

Pravin, Puli, I'm dark and I've gotten burned - definitely happens.

ak: good points.

>>Media and public figures are influential and can help change popular culture

...as long as it is voluntary and comes from within. Just because he's a public figure does not mean the public has a right to tell him what to do and what not to do! He's in show biz, first and foremost. Everything else is secondary.

And puli, I'd love to join your fascist society, as long as I get to make all the rules!

M. Nam

Just because he's a public figure does not mean the public has a right to tell him what to do and what not to do!

They definitely have a right to express their opinion which is what protesting his endorsement of fair and crappy is! Comes with the territory of being a public celebrity. As a public figure, he better get used to the idea that people are looking at him.

PS, i am not denying the power of media and celebrities. but what these groups seem to be calling for is his merely abandoning a position as spokesperson. without more, i think any message re fairness will be lost and not make much of a dent. if there is a concerted and comprehensive agenda, perhaps - but it would take a lot of effort. also, it is easy for celebrities to say such things - they move in rather more liberal circles (or maybe not where fairness is concerened). but even supposing the average person accepted his message initially, when even one prospective groom's family rejects their daughter for being too dark, you can be almost certain that they will start to slather on the fairness cream. so long as such an attutude re fairness is so deeply and widely held, and more importantly, actively practised on a regular basis - a celebrity's message cannot overcome people's reality.

Puli,

I am new to Sepia so forgive my ignorance but how do ever get any work done? You are on a posting streak that is unrivaled on this blog

i've been burned once...skiing in telluride. can ski with your shirt off there. great food too. saw oprah and ralph lauren. but no shah rukh khan. lots of trustafarians though.

ak,

I don't know what the details of the protest campaign is, but I'd bet that they are more savvy than just protesting him. And if you have limited resources, than protesting him has a good potential to make an impact, in a way that passing out pamphlets that talk about the dangers of F&L is could not.

When your doing outreach it's smart to go after a public figure.

but even supposing the average person accepted his message initially, when even one prospective groom's family rejects their daughter for being too dark, you can be almost certain that they will start to slather on the fairness cream. so long as such an attutude re fairness is so deeply and widely held, and more importantly, actively practised on a regular basis - a celebrity's message cannot overcome people's reality.

You have to begin somewhere. And protesting SRK's endorsement of this odious product is a great to draw attention to. Look at Voting campaigns in the US ---- even though the majority of voters are negligent about voting, the idea of a celebrity endorsing voting (you know "rock the vote" stuff) has the potential to make quite a difference. What that impact is will vary I'm sure, and I'm sure studies have been done on the impact of hiring celebrities to discuss safe sex and the "rock the vote" campaign. Using celebrities to promote a cause is a technique that been used pretty often, probably b/c it is so effective in raising public awareness.

how do ever get any work done?

my guess is he's a proprietary trader. firm gives him like 100million to trade, he puts it all in berkshire hathaway , forgets about it, and logs onto SM. at the end of the year he has warren buffet 25%+ returns of which he keeps 20% as a bonus.

Just because he's a public figure does not mean the public has a right to tell him what to do and what not to do!

Actually, it kinda does. Being a public figure usually means the public is supporting you in that figure-headness. If a group of people support you, and get you to where you are, then they have a right to criticize your behavior if they find it detrimental.

my guess is he's a proprietary trader. firm gives him like 100million to trade, he puts it all in berkshire hathaway , forgets about it, and logs onto SM. at the end of the year he has warren buffet 25%+ returns of which he keeps 20% as a bonus.

here's the secret...psstt....*i dont get anything done*

this is lazy SM addicted puli, signing off.

All this reminds me of the Addams family tv show. In one episode, Gomez and Morticia warned their son, "don't let the moon bath ruin your lovely pallor, Pugsley."

Yours truly is of the pale variety and anything darker than a light gold--amounting to two weeks careful sun exposure--would look very weird. It's hard to tan too much, mainly because it fades so quickly, not because of a constant preference to be very darkly tanned. A sort of peachy beige is most flattering for reddish hair and blue eyes. Color does not occur out of context--dark skinned people have the sort of eyes and features to "carry it off." If skin is healthy and clear, any color is beautiful, not trying for pc, that's just a fact. Of course which beautiful shade you prefer is a personal matter and nobody has any right to fight you about it. One East Asian girl told me that a tan made me more "pretty", but her more "ugly". I could see her point--paler skin showed up her eyes and brows better, and her skin was clear. Most Indians however, whom I have seen, could be either very light (white even), or very dark and look perfectly fine. Actually, they have the kind of features that can carry any color in the normal human range.

That said, I don't think you can blame the Brits for this one, not that most of you do. They just took a contentious point already in place (as they did so well everywhere) and used it to the hilt. I am sure indians in 1790 did not particularly admire British looks and I doubt the Brits cared. Or vice versa. Every race knows it looks odd in some ways to other races not used to seeing them; we're all convinced we're the real, normal people, or at least we all were in the days when you only saw a cast of feature generally similar to your own. There are European primers from the 1800s in which children are instructed that "natives" living in hot climates think whites are very strange looking for being white. Think it harmed the little scholars' egos? Not one wit, I'll wager.
I would say, tentatively, that when races are thrown together in tough competition, then "racial" characteristics assume signifance. Such characteristics function as a sort of uniform, signifying what "team" we're on, and people become conscious of shared apsects.
That's how it plays out anyway.

PS, you make some valid points. but i just have two things to add : 1. indians are/can be an astonishingly indifferent and/or stubborn lot; and 2. given that, i do not see the concerted effort in this issue that is seen in other indian campaigns, or their american counterparts to which you refer, that is necessary for change. since we do not, in fact, know that there is a comprehensive campaign against dark skin discrimination using srk, i still stand by the point that merely protesting his position as a representative or him stepping down will have little effect on the average indian. it may be a start, but without more, the flame will die down just as quickly as it was struck.

"this is lazy SM addicted puli, signing off."

don't feel bad about it. I stumbled upon this blog probably a month ago and I spend way too much time here. When I think about it, its actually quite absurd that my firm pays me to read this blog all day.

btw trading is overrated as a busy profession. Algorithms do most of the work and in a few years all of us traders will be replaced by them

btw trading is overrated as a busy profession. Algorithms do most of the work and in a few years all of us traders will be replaced by them

im in sales. later.

i think people look different when they have been out in the sun a bit. i dont mean just getting darker. changes something else with the skin. cant put my finger on it.

It's the sun damage that gives you the glow/burn, then the body produces melanin to give you the tan. The key to the glow is strong sun exposure before you gradually build up the tan. I always get burned...I mean glow..after spring break sun exposure since I have no built-up tan. Love it, since it eliminates the need for make up but only do it once a year since its pretty bad for your skin. The rest of the time, blush does the trick.

Not to worry. His can of worms is also OFF-TOPIC and further comments encouraging such lunacy will be nuked with prejudice.

Mind if I throw in just one particularly compelling quote as a sort of palate-cleanser?

We find that the Muslim populations in general are genetically closer to their non-Muslim geographical neighbors than to other Muslims in India, and that there is a highly significant correlation between genetics and geography (but not religion). Our findings indicate that, despite the documented practice of marriage between Muslim men and Hindu women, Islamization in India did not involve large-scale replacement of Hindu Y chromosomes. The Muslim expansion in India was predominantly a cultural change and was not accompanied by significant gene flow, as seen in other places, such as China and Central Asia.

From "A shared Y-chromosomal heritage between Muslims and Hindus in India" (emphasis mine).

i believe there was an article on this in little india... right?

I always though these types of "whitening" creams had something in them (hydroquinone I think) that actually does whiten the skin, but with long term use it is a dangerous carcinogen.

Can anyone confirm this?

If that is the case then I think the levity of the discourse evaporates and it becomes a very serious matter of public health within our community.

yes, the cream is not good at all. it contains very strong bleaching agents and do more harm than good. i have even heard that if u use the orignal F&L for a long period of time your skin will develop black spots.

one more thing, whenever i tell ppl i have studied cosmetics the first thing they ask me is to recommend a cream that'll make them 'gora'. even guys. i've noticed that for many desis beauty is fair skin. have even met very attractive girls thinking they are ugly just because they have dark skin.

Pravin, Puli, I'm dark and I've gotten burned - definitely happens.

I've gotten burned about 5 times in my life and I'm "wheatish". I seems to get burned on my nose and neck mostly, but there was this one time when I got my back burned while boogie boarding. That absolutely sucked. It hurt and I was peeling skin for days. Whenever I spend time in the sun, my skin stays dark for quite a long time.

Mom is lighter skinned and she's gotten burned more times. She's now got some really freckly skin on her nose which her dermatologist told her was because of sun damage.

just remembered a much discussed and frowned upon incident in my family. one of my cousin is quite obsessed about beauty. even now she feels quite awkward because of her dark(brown) skin; add to that that she stays in south bombay and is studying in a marathi medium school. anyways when she was four she tried to shave with her dad's razor, just to be fair. apparently, all the relatives and friends were focusing on her fair-skinned elder sister and she felt neglected. even now she doesn't feel confident though she doesnt say it openly she craves for a fair skin. no one in the family wants her to be fair. its the society thats so extremely biased, we try to speak about it, giving examples - "look at sushmita and bipasha", but she only has to step out of the house to feel miserable all over again.

this idea of equating lighter skin with prosperity simply stems from years of rule under light skinned conquerors. it is not unique to india. before creams, i suspect that there were other ways the lightening affect was perceived. so, the idea is old; F&H and creams like it are its contemporary form.

this idea of equating lighter skin with prosperity simply stems from years of rule under light skinned conquerors. it is not unique to india.

One could certainly do a lot worse than consulting Fanon's Black Skin, White Masks on this and related issues.

well, as disappointing i think this ad is, it's not like it hasn't been done before. last time i visited mumbai, i was in some make-up store with my mom, and i saw an ad for 'fair and lovely' cream with a picture of aishwarya rai in it. while it may not have been advertised so widely, (i haven't seen the ads with her in it around anywhere else so far), it was still a visible ad campaign. so, srk isn't the only bollywood actor who has endorsed such a thing.

Is there anyone here, though, who always tells off/educates their parents/relatives/aunties & uncles about not being colorist?

i call them sand niggers.

I think testosterone naturally darkens skin, so you would expect women to want a man to be darker relative to the average of the population?

testosterone has the effect of darkening skin. functionally there is some not totally elucidated relationship between testosterone levels/ratio and the melanocortin receptor pathway re: regulation. women tend to get darker as they age and with pregnancies. men will get darker as they age as well. unreflected skin color difference between sexes within the same population is on the order of 5% of the units of measurement.

I don't want to get into the discussion regarding how many desis are afflicted with colorism (nice word, nala)...there's a more serious problem here that brings out the libertarian in me.

What does bother me is that all and sundry are attacking ShahRukh because he does not conform to others' notion of what constitutes egalitarian when it comes to physical attributes of people. Sure, maybe you don't think that in the sixtieth year of Indian independance it is not correct to continue to extend preference of fair skin over dark one. Noble idea indeed, and more power to you. But by asking/demanding that others accept your moral code for personal preferences, you are taking the first step towards fascism. What next, a lawsuit against Khan? A ban on these products?

most libertarians have no problem with moral suasion and ostracism. the problem is when the government mandates behavior or attitude via force. don't debase language.

What's tough is being the one brown guy in an all white work, school, or living environment.

rare male advantage anyone? it isn't tough for me. perhaps for you. perhaps for most brown guys, i don't know (the regular complaint that pink pussy is unattainable is something i hear even from professional brown guys, though the sex ratio balance in outmarriage makes me skeptical).

Every avalanche starts out as a small snowball...

don't be dumb about slippery slopes. every hardcore drug user has probably used weed, and every rapist has masturbated. so what?

My experience tells me that complexion plays a bigger role in picking brides than it does in picking grooms, where education/employment seems to take precedence.

cross-cultural data suggests greater premium on female light skin color.

That being the case, talk of fascism and banning is perfectly valid in this context, more so than "my auntie/uncle used this Telugu phrase...". The word "abandon" has its roots in the word "ban".

talk of fascism isn't valid. should we invent moornam's rule? bring up fascism at the slightest pretext? actually, i'm feeling pressured by your strident opinion here. stop being fascist will you?

The clincher for me was this 2006 paper ("A prehistory of Indian Y chromosomes: Evaluating demic diffusion scenarios", which I believe was discussed on SM before) and one or two others like it.

don't let your idea be clinched by one paper, these papers regularly disagree. the consensus is probably a minor contribution by aryans genetically from an exogenous source. but not culturally obviously (3/4 of browns speak an indo-aryan language).

archaeogenetics suggests a relatively homogeneous genetic picture going back to the original peopling of the subcontinent.

probably about 90% of the ancestors of south asians alive today were extant within south asia about 10,000 years ago. is the other 10% significant or not? depends. a large number of north indians are lactose tolerant. this genetic functionally arose around 7,000 years ago in central eurasia and swept through areas where dairy culture thrived. it almost certainly arrived with newcomers, perhaps the indo-aryans themselves. ancestry itself is not all, genes have lives of their own.

Nothing wrong with people who prefer a fairer complexion. But in India, it seems overbearing.

can i get an amen?

it seems just rude to constantly talk about someone being ugly, and that's basically what a lot of indian families do because they think dark skin is ugly. this is just common courtesy. go ahead and think x is ugly, but don't constantly torment people about it and delude yourself that that's not what you are doing. the comments about about fat americans and similarities to cellulite cream illustrate the issue, many brown skinned people think that brown skin is just ugly.

now, as i have said in the USA the whole thing is even more annoying because the typical brown person, gold to black, is very dark in the grand scheme of things. perpetuating the old stereotypes and habits is really stupid when there are few marginal returns; there is probably some preference for "dusky" light skinned brownz over the darker skinned brownz by white people, but it is nothing like the lionization of golden skin tones in brownland.

love as you wish, but treat others as you would be treated. it isn't rocket science.

someone asked what would a white chick become if she used Fair&Lovely--a whiter shade of pale of course.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Whiter_Shade_of_Pale

btw, Shah Rukh Khan to get near ultimate results with that controversial product, he'd end up looking a bit like Paul Wolfowitz, blog.kir.com
and he wouldn't want that, would he? I mean Shah being muslim and all...

#262 "but it is nothing like the lionization of golden skin tones in brownland."

Aren't African Americans afflicted by the same colorism as desis? What's wrong with us browns and blacks? I remember SM had a sizzling debate a year ago on this racial issue.

Colorism in the desi context has been perpetuated by the practice of arranged marriage. How else can one explain the fair-skin fixation in a society that is homogenously dark and, fortunately, has had no white masters to emulate for 60 years. Since in arranged marriages, brides and grooms can be ordered with all the desired options, as one would a new Toyota, then why not thrown in one more option - fair? As urban Indians start dating and marrying for love, you will see the fair skin feature getting reprioritized to the same level as general good looks are in any culture. I have many nephews and nieces In Delhi and Mumbai whose spouses are too dark, too tall, too short, too educated, too uneducated, and in general too different for them. Obviously, they were not ordered from central casting. It was LOVE!

Obviously, they were not ordered from central casting.

what does a central casting bride look like?

what does a central casting bride look like?

Like Ash, of course.

Razib,
You're a smart dude. I think every one of your criticisms (including of my post) was spot on. I agree rare male advantage can work in the favor of a lone desi male in an all-white environment, but we're not all made of stuff that strong. I've learned over time that I prefer environments where about 25% of the males or more are brown like me, and there's at least 3 of us. I just don't do well as the lone brown guy for extended periods of time. But I hope to be like you one day -being so good socially that one can master any environment is kind of a superpower, and some people do seem to have it.

MN, no need to get nasty (not saying you did, just saying I'm not trying to escalate things), I just think that the assumption that this is equal to "sliding towards fascism" is an excellent example of hyperbole.

I think it's absolutely fair to target SRK. This is the same as African American leaders asking Ray Charles not to play segregated venues in the South. If someone is a public figure making public appearances as a public spokesperson, they should also understand that part of a democratic dialogue is to face popular dissent. I'm glad that people in India are finally seeing colorism as a larger issue. I just wish they felt this way about Fair & Lovely creams for women, as well.

Where the colonial era Europeans were wrong is placing the homeland in Western Europe instead of Iran/Caspian sea region.

I think fairness creams are like the hair straightening chemicals in the African American world. I do not find it appealing when African American women straighten their hair unless someone can do an excellent job with it. It looks lifeless.

I think more than 90% of ppl (mostly women) there use it for this reason. I always thought Sun Screens are used to block UV rays and prevent harmful damage to your skin and not for preventing you from getting a tan (complexion) to your skin.

So whats up with the Desi Girls going for a "tan" at the beach ? I just dont get it. You are already brown honey...Why risk your skin to UV exposure just because the white chicks do it? They want to get brown.. and you ?I agree that there's a popular misconception that sun screen will make you lighter. It is true that it can keep you from getting as tan as quickly, though. (You'll still get tan, just maybe not as tan). Sunscreen is effectively just a layer of sun blocker. That said, I love the sun and am happy to have my legs and upper arms approach the same skin color as my face. I also just like the sun. What's wrong with that?

With respect to "oily" sunscreens, from a health standpoint I actually think sunscreen is really important. Shiseido makes a great non-greasy SPF-55 sunscreen for face and body, Clarins makes a 20-SPF facial moisturizer, Neutrogena has a few less greasy sunscreen options, and I like god old fashioned Banana Boat sunscreen for legs/arms/body. Sunscreen also keeps your skin from getting as sun-damaged, so there's a 2-in-1 benefit in that respect. I have burned thrice in my life: once snowboarding in Tahoe -- wearing a tank top to snowboard on a sunny winter day with insufficient sunscreen is apparently a very stupid idea; once when I was at the beach; and once I burned my nose, forehead, eyelids, and lips at my first college football game.

Lastly, BIG, it's my pleasure. We'll go to Homestead and get a Guinness or Stella next time I'm in SF. ;)

Sorry for the repost, I just butchered the formatting on the last bit:

I think more than 90% of ppl (mostly women) there use it for this reason. I always thought Sun Screens are used to block UV rays and prevent harmful damage to your skin and not for preventing you from getting a tan (complexion) to your skin.

So whats up with the Desi Girls going for a "tan" at the beach ? I just dont get it. You are already brown honey...Why risk your skin to UV exposure just because the white chicks do it? They want to get brown.. and you ?
I agree that there's a popular misconception that sun screen will make you lighter. It is true that it can keep you from getting as tan as quickly, though. (You'll still get tan, just maybe not as tan). Sunscreen is effectively just a layer of sun blocker. That said, I love the sun and am happy to have my legs and upper arms approach the same skin color as my face. I also just like the sun. What's wrong with that?

With respect to "oily" sunscreens, from a health standpoint I actually think sunscreen is really important. Shiseido makes a great non-greasy SPF-55 sunscreen for face and body, Clarins makes a 20-SPF facial moisturizer, Neutrogena has a few less greasy sunscreen options, and I like god old fashioned Banana Boat sunscreen for legs/arms/body. Sunscreen also keeps your skin from getting as sun-damaged, so there's a 2-in-1 benefit in that respect. I have burned thrice in my life: once snowboarding in Tahoe -- wearing a tank top to snowboard on a sunny winter day with insufficient sunscreen is apparently a very stupid idea; once when I was at the beach; and once I burned my nose, forehead, eyelids, and lips at my first college football game.

Shah Rukh Khan is as typically Indian looking as you can get! That's why people are so dumb-founded by his huge appeal. I don't know if anybody has noticed but he used to be much darker in his earlier films . I wonder if he has been using "fair and lovely" all along. Too bad. I thought he was much more appealing when he was darker. In any case, I've decided to stop crushing on him - that "Fair and Handsome" ad was too much for me.

I'd like to see Fair and Lovely and Sunset Tan battle it out on neutral territory ... maybe Italy?

So whats up with the Desi Girls going for a "tan" at the beach ? I just dont get it. You are already brown honey...Why risk your skin to UV exposure just because the white chicks do it? They want to get brown.. and you ?

There's an old family (or SL) joke, "There's only two types who walk outside between the hours of 11 and 3--mad dogs and Englishmen"

but seriously people, put some dang sunscreen on and DAMN the nano-sized ingredients! I've seen people die from skin cancer and was neither quick nor painless.

#9 muralimannered

I can't imagine a Rajni-helmed, "Dark and Date-Less" cosmetics campaign would be feasible.

--> Why would rajni dilute his brand in the first place through cosmetics campaign ? Given his marketing acumen, I doubt it.

His recent 'sivaji' movie has a so-called comedy sequence(very insulting and very crass) that wouldnt be out of place in an ad for fairness cream.

i didn't read thru every comment, so if someone mentioned this already, forgive me.

i don't generally think much of katrina kaif (not being condescending, i just don't think about her), but i did read that she turned down ads/commercials from several of these companies, b/c she thought it promoted unhealthy self-image in girls/women.

right or wrong, she did go up a few notches in my books (still a terrible actress though). sorry.

SRK - what the heck were you thinking?????

apparently, fair and lovely has a fairness meter too. Anyone willing to try it for four weeks?

here's the ad for the fairness meter... guaranteed money back, if you don't get "lighter" in four weeks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa6I8EAFLag&mode=related&search=

The United States government wants to ban skin bleaching products. The person representing the US cosmetics industry in this matter is brown! Her name is farah ahmed. she's at the US Cosmetics Association and was just quoted in the news on sunscreens. i hear she leads the US Sunscreen Team as well. very cool that we have a desi in such a leadership role.

are you serious? you mean she's at the Cosmetics Toiletry Fragrance Association? Those guys want to keep skin bleaching products on the market. sad that a brown girl is behind it all. i think she is the same farah ahmed from samma and nirvana woman magazine. she used to model. go figure that she doesn't "get it".

An important question mixed with randomness: Does this desire/preference for white or lighter skin in India stem from Eurocentric discourses on the ideals of beauty especially even now with globalization? (From the days of Alexander or the British to the present etc.) Or is this from the Indo-Aryan age (which may also have Euro influences though I am unsure)? Even looking at some depictions of Goddess Saraswati, Lakshmi and Radha they are all have white skin... Like wtf? But then again in some depicions of Krishna and Kali Ma are black. The assoication of white to holiness & beauty and black/deeper tones to evil and ugliness where does it have its roots/stems? Does it stem from us Desi's, from Europe or a mash mix of both? Can someone shed some light? Also I think in MIA's new video "Jimmy" she is shown in some parts with very light brown skin... though I am uncertain of her natural skin tone and this video...

280 · Bhang Walla

'The children born here are black enough; but the blacker they are the more they are thought of; wherefore from the day of their birth their parents do rub them every week with oil of sesame, so that they become black as devils. Moreover, they make their gods black and their devils white, and the images of their saints they do paint black all over.'

- Marco Polo (1254 - 1324) writing about people in and around present day Mylapur in chennai.(From The Travels of Marco Polo, The complete Yule-Cordier edition, Pg. 355)

Make of it what you will.

On the one hand SRK is free to endorse any product he wishes, on the other hand it does send the message to our Janta, "Gora hona better hai." Doesn't really boost self-confidence in those with a darker shade does it? In this day and age there are some who are trying to get a tan, because they feel a shade darker than theirs would make them look attractive/exotic, and then there are others who fell the opposite. For what? To seek love? Would that be true love? I guess instant gratification is what some seek, even at the expense of potentially causing skin damage. If we don't love ourselves no one else will.

What's tough is being the one brown guy in an all white work, school, or living environment.

rare male advantage anyone? it isn't tough for me. perhaps for you. perhaps for most brown guys, i don't know (the regular complaint that pink pussy is unattainable is something i hear even from professional brown guys, though the sex ratio balance in outmarriage makes me skeptical).

Perhaps you Desi blokes in N. America need to stay in Europe for some time? Generally, European goris are quite friendly and attainable to the brown man. Of course, one needs to dress somewhat sensible. Not like a stereotypical freshie.

Good one... SRK

It’s nice to see him in Fair and Handsome ad. He is looking much better than the other young co-actors. He always looks awesome whether he does a soap ad or fairness cream ad.

Crazed, get your facts right before you mouth off. The skin bleaching products on the market that the fda wants to ban are actually over the counter drugs and used for very small discolorations of the skin. for brown people with acne who get dark spots after their zit clears up, these skin bleaching products are a God sent. these products that miss ahmed is trying to save are not meant to be used all over the face. also, the fact that the girl is attractive shouldn't count against her one bit.

i interviewed her recently. i caught her in between meetings and heading back to her office. we grabbed sandwiches to go. she bought 2 and without saying a word, she handed 1 to a homeless man that we saw while heading into the sandwich place. trust me, she gets it.

its pathetic that advertising (esp cosmetic industry) thrives on all of our insecurity-everyone trying to CHANGE what they naturally have. here i am-a pasty north indian chick paying 100's of dollars on tanning and bronzing products (along w/my american friends) and dark skinned people trying to fade themselves!?? personally like the darker skin-all those white indian stars are straight up ugly-the southern actresses/actors are way more gorgeous- but wht do i know. i have lost total respect for SRK though-he is way too easy and will sell anything to make a buck-like he doesnt make enough monopolizing bollywood? these people should be supporting their culture,society!!! loser!

it's odd that these creams have not been banned in India and other countries that still sell them. I have been told that these products have been banned in the US for some time now due to cancer 'inducing' ingredients which are proven to be linked to cancer. And yes, I know that these days just about everything is supposed to cause cancer, but these skin lighteners have actually been proved to do so. taken off the US market I suppose before the law suites start!
I can't understand the obsession with white or light skin....maybe that's because I am white. But I know when I'm with a group of dark people I look at their skin, then look at my horrible pale skin and think 'yuk' I wish I had their beautiful dark skin. And I then wonder if they too think 'wow, she's got really horrible pale skin' lol. So I suppose it's a case of we all tend to want what we don't have? Blue eyed ppl want brown, visa versa. Those with curly hair want straight and visa versa. Whites buy tanning creams and blacks buy lightening creams. lol. Silly really isn't it.
Anyway....have a great day all! :-)