I'm actually a fan of "men in white" (Kesavan's cricket blog--haven't read the book yet) and I think in a sports context, he's a fantastic editorial writer. This column, however, was lazily researched and seriously lacking in any original thought. If anything, the desi blogosphere is dominated by low-traffic, personal-items blogs (and the mentioned tech blogs) where people generally talk about anything they please--just as in the general blogosphere where there are zillions of such personal blogs and a few hundred with lots of traffic.

do you think he's just lashing out at a perceived encroachment on his own 'territory' as an established printed-media journalist? I would dare say that the lively debates on blogs such as this would cause more than a little jealousy on the part of someone like Kesavan, who's own cricket blog's comments are usually dominated by fairly incoherent rants about various cricketers.

I think the two female blogger that immediately comes to mind is Sonia Faleiro and Lulu Raghavan at her food blog here.
Some other interesting blogs in my opinion are Dilip D'Souza
Sunil Shibad (Advertising and Marketing Professional from Bombay)and Peter Griffin's blog.
I personally feel that Mukul should share what blogs he is reading and expand his horizons a little mor.

I'm not sure if the column should be taken too seriously, it seemed somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I think a cursory glance at a random set of male desi blogs does give the reader the impression that the author conveys.

Also, I think the author is talking more about individual blogs written by DBDs, rather than something like SM or any of the personal blogs of the SM folk.

Amardeep, I think that Kesavan does make a few valid points (regardless of his overall tone, and the lack of rigorous justification). For instance, the point about travel blogs written by Indians as compared to those written by westerners. I liked the point that for an effective travel blog, the writer has to be from a 'richer' place than the subject of the blog.

I've traveled in several countries and blogged about my experiences, but as an Indian, I find it impossible to summon the absolute sense of 'judgement' that the typical western traveler (even a backpacker) can bring to her writing. I find it similar among other Indian travelers of my age and background. If you read any travel guides locally produced in India, I think you will notice that difference in tone.

Murali, thanks, I didn't know about Men in White. I think you might be right about what's causing him to lash out. And maybe the reason he only sees men from a certain demographic is that it's mainly men commenting on his blog?

From reading his column I'm not sure if he feels threatened by the "Republic of Blog," and in general I don't know whether journalists are right to feel threatened by bloggers, since bloggers are completely dependent on journalists who bring them news to link to. There will always be a need for professionals to do that work. More endangered, probably, are the opinion-making journalists, the "pundits".

And brown, thanks for the link to Lulu Raghavan. Yum, Sabudana khichdi! (When's lunch?)

looks like the guy wrote a perl script to transform one of the common op-eds that show up decrying blogging in american newspapers. i'm sure the bards decried the loss of memory and mental acuity that came with writing. they dealt.

I've traveled in several countries and blogged about my experiences, but as an Indian, I find it impossible to summon the absolute sense of 'judgement' that the typical western traveler (even a backpacker) can bring to her writing.

Actually, I think the non-judgmental quality you're talking about is a good thing, and much western-produced travel writing is seriously problematic.

Kesavan mentions Paul Theroux, for instance. If you read "The Great Railway Bazaar," it's full of nasty little stereotypes of the various cultures he encounters as he goes from Europe through Asia by train. (The chapter where he talks about Tamils is particularly mean.) There's plenty of humor and interesting adventures in the book too, but really his quickness to judge is not an admirable quality. If Indian travel writers lack it, all the better!

(Kesavan does mention that when Indian writers do books based on travel experiences, they are often excellent.)

For awhile I was following some really good Indian travel bloggers, many of whom were writing about their travel experiences within India. But now I can't dig up the links, and googling "India travel blogger" doesn't turn up anything. Can anyone help?

I've come across lots of food blogs authored by Indian women, some living in India. Based on writing, presentation and my personal tastes, I have five or six of those bookmarked that I visit on a semi-regular basis.

I agree with Razib. What is Kesavan's baseline? Some imagined golden age when all young men were poets?

With minimal effort, one could pick holes in every one of his arguments, but I don't think it is worth my time.

I'm not sure if the column should be taken too seriously, it seemed somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I think a cursory glance at a random set of male desi blogs does give the reader the impression that the author conveys.

That's exactly my problem with these rants (though my irritation might be construed as the classical defense mechanism!). There have been more than few instances where otherwise respected wordsmiths have written stuff that portrayed them as Web 2.0 n00bs (not that there is anything wrong with it, as Jerry would say). But I am trying to understand how they'd not research their pieces enough. Because almost every single one of them seem to concentrate on the trivial junk and not on the substantial material that is available for them to see. The english is exemplary, but the information they seem to dig up is junk.

There are a few journos though that have embraced the Internet and the picks on #2 would mirror mine.

As for Kesavan, it is surprising that his rant fails to inspire me in any way. Like Murimannered (#1), I have been reading his Cricinfo blog posts (funny considering his "Republic of Blogs" rant) and his arguments are lucid and substantial in terms of ideas.

Amardeep: Anita Bora frequently blogs about her travels. This blog is another. Akshay Mahajan posts regularly too. These are mainly locals in India.

Speaking of desi food blogs, Mahanandi is the grand-mother of them
all!

Btw, there's even a network of "Indian mommy blogs" where desi moms-on-the-way and moms-with-toddlers exchange know-how on the art of child-rearing :D

Kesavan is not the first desi writer to decry blogging. TOI (ha) etc. had a few op-eds along similar lines.

(Kesavan does mention that when Indian writers do books based on travel experiences, they are often excellent.)

Amit's right. Many of the female bloggers I come across write about food. Some that I've enjoyed reading:

The ladies on Saffron Tree review books regularly.
Lulu Loves Bombay

i have to agree with MM - there seems to be some sense of sour grapes associated with this piece. not to mention the fact that just because somebody is writing for a hard-copy/'established' newspaper does not mean that it will necessarily be of a certain level of substance (as razin abd others have said). he seems to operating on the assumption that journalists are always/mostly great writers with something of substance to offer, while bloggers are categorically incapable of being so.

also, had he considered that certain blogs are very infuential? i'm not sure how much research he did (seems minimal) but if he took this from some form american op-ed, he should have realised that that op-ed would be wrong - one only has to look at the role played by blogs in the last and upcoming presidential elections in this country.

OT. Have you read Butter Chicken in Ludhiana? What are your thoughts? Never seen a travel book inspire so much debate. One Indian reviewer called it sanitary inspector's report of India. I thought it had some interesting parts. All that sniping gets tiresome pretty quickly though.

I have read it, though it's been a few years. I remember being impressed mainly by how young he was when he wrote it; the observations he makes at various points do seem a bit dated now. I don't remember being horrified by anything, though.

As for the sanitary inspector's line, the same line was used about a much worse book, Katherine Mayo's "Mother India." The person who described that book as a "drain inspector's report" (back in the early 1930s) was Mohandas K. Gandhi.

I swear, ever since SM I have seen more Mahanandi shout outs than any other desi blog (particularly when we talk food).

I'm not sure if this is sour grapes, or rather that the author is frustrated by the lack of distinction between personal and public blogs. I know that all blogs are public (for the most part), but what he's criticizing is a little silly. It's like if I wrote personal mass-emails for family and friends and then posted them on a blog [which I've done] but someone confused that for being an attempt at actually engaging in in-depth, thoughtful dialogue. I didn't get a sense, from the article, that he distinguishes between blogs that are similar to personal journals vs. blogs that are aimed towards a public audience with the intention of eliciting feedback, commentary, etc. (I guess the more journalistic types?)

Wow that was inarticulate.

Why Naipaul? Why not nature? Or Napier? Or the nadeswaram? Why Bachchan? And not Burma? Or Bhojpuri?

Practicaly speaking if you want to blog about anything off-beat requires more work and some effort especially if that topic is not your "specialization" or your regular "reading" list

The United States also gets hammered with the judgment stick by foreign visitors as a matter of routine...

(Sadly, no Punjabi…)

Sadly, Punjabi is just not going to survive in the long term...I think it will be the first major Indian language to die out.

Amardeep,

You may already know this, but Nilanajana Roy a.k.a Hurree Babu is a blogger who ranks way up in my estimate. She blogs at Kitabkhana and at the Akhond of Swat.

i unfortunately cant compare desi blogs, cause i am a loyal SM user (errr...addict). this blog is like krak.

I read the article and found it sort of amusing. I think it's meant to be taken in a semi-tongue in cheek sort of way, although I think he makes an excellent point about travel writing. I like Ghosh's book, In an Antique Land very much (as well as Iyer's travel writing), in part because it does not carry that oppressing sense of Noblesse Oblige or the even more annoying gosh, it's SO different here...(no sh-t) when most English speakers write travel memoires on the Middle East/North Africa. Aside from that, a lot of Desi blogs are very articulate and often funny in an interesting way. (unlike me- I just go for snarky...:>)

Mukul Kesavan’s article didn't really resonate with me. i think its a indian-british thing, with issues like the brown sahib and colonialism not too far from the suface. doen't really jibe with the indian-american experience, i think.

i think its a indian-british thing.... doen't really jibe with the indian-american experience, i think.

Manju, I am not even sure he's talking about the "indian-british" thing. That's why most (if not all) of the examples quoted by the various commentors here, are all non-diaspora blogs.

i agree anantha, and i didn't mean to imply he wsa talking about the diaspora. rather, he's looking at the indain man: anglophones suffering from a post-colonial hangover. british in their hearts but yearning to be authentic, thus the hindi film obsession. and apparently he thinks they all look alike, like blacks probably do to the jena, LA DA.

anyway, that's what i got out of it, but as i said it didn't really jibe with me as an american. i watch bollywood for the chicks (with the sound off, since i don't understand hindi and the music makes me puke) so i'm not quite sure what the hell he's talking about and i'm not sure he knows either.

i agree anantha, and i didn't mean to imply he wsa talking about the diaspora. rather, he's looking at the indain man: anglophones suffering from a post-colonial hangover. british in their hearts but yearning to be authentic, thus the hindi film obsession.

There's definitely something to what Manju is saying -- Kesavan thinks bloggers are babus.

Amardeep, we are forever looking for new Indic languages to add at DesiPundit. If you know of any bloggers you know in the languages not yet featured, please direct them to me.

I don't think he intended a full-frontal attack on the desi blogosphere even though his first sentence seems to suggest so. His targets are literary blogs of anglophile Indian men who have aspirations of writing full-length books, but lack the necessary time/talent/energy/contacts.

I will admit, I have not seen the vast majority of "Desi-blogs," I've mainly haunted the ones associated with and mentioned here. But, I have found them a great resource for learning the ins and outs of a culture and people I am interested in. Despite what the topics are, the commentary invariably digresses down one path or another in which more about Indian culture (from all over India) is exposed to me and explained a little so I can understand various "figures of speech" and so forth. This is the sort of learning you cannot get in any class or course...it's almost like being able to hang out with all of you in a local coffee shop and I learn a little every day. I, for one, salute the "desi-blogosphere!"

Why did a bunch of grown men, in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, write about the same movies, novels, journeys and riots? Why Naipaul? Why not nature? Or Napier? Or the nadeswaram?

Because in every age and every country, there are a few great original thinkers that stand for all time, amid the chatter, the noise, the epiphenomena thrown up by the rabble. The blogosphere is just the electronic record of would have passed for conversation in coffee shops or discussion in classrooms in a bygone era.

Intend to spend the rest of the evening walking through the list of top 100 Indian blogs AND all listed above - super! ((Yes, I'm in Fargo this week - pray - how did you know?))

Interestingly Amardeep and the rest, he has made a very discussion worthy observation at the end of his column

But it is the English-writing Indian¿s interest in communalism, particularly his near-obsessive interest in the way in which majoritarian politics picks on religious minorities, that would draw the attention of our historian. Perhaps he would take his cue from that acute critic, Lal Krishna Advani, who coined a useful term for this tendency: pseudo-secularism. In this view, since the majority of secularist critics are nominally Hindu, this peculiar interest in Muslim or Christian welfare is to be charitably understood as a form of misguided chivalry, misguided because it¿s the Hindus who are harassed and discriminated against in the name of secularism. When a critic of the Advani school isn¿t feeling charitable, this chivalric tendency is put down to the self-hatred that afflicts deracinated Hindus.

Looks like the dude has an agenda too besides his critique of the Indian blogosphere. He seems to be one of those who buys into the saffron brigades propaganda that Hindus are the discriminated folks etc etc and that the Left leaning Indian intellectuals are self hating Hindus. Granted that Indian politics has been guilty of a pandering to the minorities but saying that Hindus are harassed and discriminated is absurd in itself.

but saying that Hindus are harassed and discriminated is absurd in itself.

Ardy,
That is an excellent point and one that I have tried to make many times when discussing with my "orange " friends.Unfortunately, a lot of educated, middle-class Indians buy into the paranoia that the saffron brigade successfully spreads.

I hate that term "pseudo -secular" because it is overused to drown out any voice of reason.

And L.K.Advani coined the term - pseudo-secularism? I think that's cow crap!

It's odd given that Kesavan writes quite a bit about communalism & cricket in his print articles. Apparently he wants us to stick to writing technical documentation and "Other"ing people. He's an academic afraid that many bloggers offer more insight than he does.

Unfortunately, a lot of educated, middle-class Indians buy into the paranoia that the saffron brigade successfully spreads.

If you have the patience, try this. First grant them that there is some amount of pandering in the Indian political circles. This is anyways wrong and messed up anyways(unlike the highly desired but never going to happen UCC). Then ask these oranginos what their solution is. The following will come forth

- Remove all muslims from India. Remind them how many muslims there are (more than 10% of over a billion). Most wont be stupid enough to say these Muslims can just disappear, so you point out that when India makes these muslims leave, India will have to give them land too

- Another 'solution' put forth is usually a Hindu Rashtra with muslims like Arabs in Israel. Remind them of the numbers and then point out civil unrest and a non peaceful India.

- A third solution is UCC and political disassociation from religion. But reports show least progress, education and maximum poverty among muslims. I'll let you deal with the reasoning when they say this is because of religion (think state's responsibility in affirmative action, Turkey, and it affects all of us - civil unrest and not purely religious). Plus then one needs to do away with reservation itself and thus it's not a HIndu issue, it's an upper caste Hindu issue, etc etc...

but saying that Hindus are harassed and discriminated is absurd in itself. Ardy, That is an excellent point and one that I have tried to make many times when discussing with my "orange " friends.Unfortunately, a lot of educated, middle-class Indians buy into the paranoia that the saffron brigade successfully spreads.

I hate that term "pseudo -secular" because it is overused to drown out any voice of reason.

I agree that Hindus in India don't face discrimination in the work place or at the hands of the police, but they absolutely do in arts/humanities departments in universities. And I'm not talking about issues around the early history of India that only trouble VHP types, I am talking about Hindus being made the villains behind Partition and denials of the systematic genocide against Hindus in East Pakistan in 1971 (a significant commenter here at SM rejected this FACT by ridiculing the outlandish body count given on fringe sites like Hind Unity). Refusal to include Kashmiri Pandits in the discussion at Kashmir seminar series in India and at elite schools here in the US. Only Hinduism is examined critically in the South Asian context. I find it odd that many of you like to think in terms of South Asia wide contexts, except when it comes to Hindu grievances and suddenly you don't see any irritants beyond India's borders

Ardy, you have to admit the nominally-Hindu secularists' obsession with Muslim welfare is a bit wierd. Or, maybe you don't have to admit it, but I think it is. Furthermore, although "making Muslims leave" is a ridiculous idea which no one should take seriously and which I'm actually reluctant to even address, it does not follow from that notion that India would have to give them any land...that was done once already in 1947.

least progress, education and maximum poverty among muslims.

Turkey is irrelevant to this...totally different culture, society, and dynamics than those of Indian Muslims. I agree that the Indian State has a responsibility here, but a lot if not most of this depends on the Muslim leaders (religious and political).

I think the two female blogger that immediately comes to mind is Sonia Faleiro and Lulu Raghavan at her food blog here.

Uma @ Indian Writing is an excellent blogger too, and covers a lot of topics.

Isn't Sonia a well known writer and journalist too?

Also Amit Varma @ India Uncut is a full time writer who sometimes writes opeds for WSJ and others.

Louiecypher - I think the writer of that article is alluding to the phenomenon in India. As you yourself said as a whole Hindus don't face discrimination in India. Regarding Kashmiri Pandits, yes they have faced issues in Kashmir and that needs to be fixed but I don't think countering discrimination with discrimination is the right approach. Regarding Indians being the villains of partition, it depends on who you talk to. I am a DBD and an Indian, I don't see India as a country that needs to emulate Bangladesh or Pakistan in their treatment of Hindus. What they do is sad, unfortunate and deplorable but it is definitely not something I want to see India do to it's citizens - Muslims, Christians or Hindus.

And Runa is right, a lot of time when arguments are made for Indians to treat all it's citizens equal irrespective of religion, the saffron brigade uses the term 'pseudosecularism' as a blanket term and tries to attain a moral high ground and say that the argument for treating minorities fairly is the same as pandering to them.

Regarding Indians being the villains of partition, it depends on who you talk to.

First, they were all Indians (Ref: Government of India Act, 1858, 1919, 1935) before the partition. Even some from Princely states too, as they used carry British Indian passport, some not. Sure, there is debate who forced the partition - Congress refusing to share power in 1937, Muslim League raising the specter of civil war 1946 onwards, failure of of Cabinet Plan & Scripps Mission, on an average 100 people dead every day from early 1947 onwards - Agreed all this is open to discussion.

On the topic, Jai Arjun Singh @ Jabberwock is a very good blog.

I agree that the Indian State has a responsibility here, but a lot if not most of this depends on the Muslim leaders (religious and political).

Amitabh - lets assume for now that the plight of the muslims is largely due to their own religious tendencies. However, it is a fact that their educational levels are lowest for a community. But what does the Govt. do to change this - nothing. Now it is in the interest of all Indians - Hindus too, that the plight of muslims be improved. If someone is educated, their opportunities for jobs increases, they get more preoccupied with finding a stable job, get busy in the rat race etc etc. Thus they turning to communal disharmony, etc, etc becomes probabilistically much less. They also become much better equipped to understand what political moves are good for them and what are not and thus crass appeasement wont fly with them like it does sometimes. The influence of religious leaders becomes less word of God and needs to rational. Also, as Muslims become educated and enter the middle class more Hindus will interact with them through jobs and social arenas and thus the distrust and fear between the two will become less. If a person is similar to me in most ways except maybe some religious beliefs, I would inadvertently become friends with him given enough opportunity for interaction. Some of these educated Muslims will become a seed for liberalism in Islam. Thus the present Hindu and GoI mindset of letting the Muslims be is not going to help, it will just make things worse. Indian Hindus needs to realize this.

I cited Turkey to cite that it is not just purely Islam that causes problems - there is enough socio economic aspect to it. You have a much better chance of a secular, harmonious country if your minorities are also educated and prosperous. The reason does not matter as much as the solution here, and barring some extremists no one is stupid enough to give up the chance for education and a stable job. As for pseudo secularism, I have seen more cases of true secularism being disparaged as pseudo secularism than vice versa. Of course, parties like BSP, SP etc practice a very opportunistic, dangerous form of communalism which is absolutely Pseudo Secularism. I have no issues with that, my issues are with blanketing true secularism as pseudo secularism.

ha ha. i see mukul kesavan is causing consternation beyond his cricket blog.

First, they were all Indians

That was a typo, should have been 'Hindus'

Sure, there is debate who forced the partition

Exactly, a lot can be debated on this!

Ardy: In your mind, anyone concerned about Hindus is part of the saffron brigade. Maybe you should question your own prejudices.

Louiecypher - I think the writer of that article is alluding to the phenomenon in India. As you yourself said as a whole Hindus don't face discrimination in India. Regarding Kashmiri Pandits, yes they have faced issues in Kashmir and that needs to be fixed but I don't think countering discrimination with discrimination is the right approach. Regarding Indians being the villains of partition, it depends on who you talk to. I am a DBD and an Indian, I don't see India as a country that needs to emulate Bangladesh or Pakistan in their treatment of Hindus What they do is sad, unfortunate and deplorable but it is definitely not something I want to see India do to it's citizens - Muslims, Christians or Hindus.

This is your brain filling in the gaps...incorrectly. Where did I say that I want Hindus to emulate Pakistan/Bangladesh in its treatment of minorities ? I get the feeling that in the real world, you throw around the word "fascist" with reckless abandon

Louiecypher -

denials of the systematic genocide against Hindus in East Pakistan in 1971

And when did I say that you are a part of the saffron brigade? My point was simply, that to me the context was about India, and if Hindus are discriminated in East Pakistan, well I don't want to see that or it's reversal in India. Dude relax, you seem to to be losing it without reason.

context. I find it odd that many of you like to think in terms of South Asia wide contexts, except when it comes to Hindu grievances and suddenly you don't see any irritants beyond India's borders

Louiecypher,
I guess I did focus on India ( and thats what my comment was about ) because I don't think I am qualified or knowledgable enough to speak of what happens in universities etc outside of India on this topic.

Look,I identify as a Hindu and have nothing against my or others' religions or lack of. Personally I am for the UCC.It just amazes me that educated folk who have never faced any discrimination of any kind based on their religion find it necessary to fear minority religions so much. Why?

I won't read Men in White because ofhis sexist assumption that only Men blog.

Ardy: You implied it by finding it necessary to lecture me on the necessity for equal rights for minorities, as if I am some kind of unhinged Rediff commenter. I'm simply stating that Indian Hindus do look at what happened in the Sindh, Punjab, Bangladesh, Kashmir and it scares them. If the academic mainstream are content with Marxist or Anand Patwardhan type psychosexual explanations for the rise of the Sangh Parivar , be prepared to accept the status quo. If you want to see things change, you will have to get mainstream Hindus enrolled in the effort to defend secularism. This won't happen if you tell them that their fears of violent dislocation have no basis in history, which is exactly what the academics are trying to do. Anyway, this is far off topic and I'm not going to respond to anyone

To all the DBDs out there:

Do you think there is something to his point about Hindi movies? That for most English-educated DBDs, there comes a point, around the age of 4-6, where English penetrates and gradually drowns out the mother-tongue? And from that point on, English grows stronger and stronger while the usage of the mothertongue stagnates or atrophies? And that when that process is over by the time you're a young adult, there remains some kind of psychological longing for the earliest days of childhood when your mothertongue was the only language you knew (and in fact you were quite good at it, for your age at that time?) To me, this makes sense (that there SHOULD be that longing) but based on all the DBDs I've ever met, I've never sensed that nostalgia for the mothertongue...most DBDs seem quite content with the way things turned out.

WTF.I write about Bhojpuri....but then again I am not the kind of blog Kesavan reads.

# 49 Amitabh, There may be a tiny minority of a few Indo-Anglian writers that are more comfortable with English than their native tongue. But the vast majority are very comfortable with their mother tongue and interact in it and use it in a variety of spheres in India to warrant their treatment of their mother tongue including Hindi as some strange and exotic being divorced from their everyday existence. That is simply not true. On the other hand, this may be true for a vey small subset of writers that he is railing against.

Actually, I think the non-judgmental quality you're talking about is a good thing, and much western-produced travel writing is seriously problematic.

It depends. For a traveler with plenty of time on her hands, a relaxed non-judgmental travel guide would be a blessing. But for someone with a week's vacation in say, Bangkok, an ideal guide would be one which says "Go to this place, and skip that one". I think, the western lonely-planet-type guides do that pretty well, regardless of how unfair and shoddily researched they might be.

Ok, and why has this discussion devolved into a Hindu-Muslim etc thread again?

Murali, thanks, I didn't know about Men in White. I think you might be right about what's causing him to lash out. And maybe the reason he only sees men from a certain demographic is that it's mainly men commenting on his blog?

Certainly contributory to the curmudgeonly tone of his column. Even in my greatest cricket geekery moments, I pause to think about the wisdom of commenting on any post in Men In White (I have in the past and it is not terribly conducive to fostering any sort of coherent debate).

Amitabh - Although Indian English (?) is my primary language, my preferred language of romance is not English but any South Indian language ( cant flirt in Hindi). Many DBDs find it easier to romance / flirt in the local language. Whether this is due to learning English in a structured fashion or due to lack of English speaking romantic role models is debatable. I have also found that romance with a non-native speaker of English is easier than with a native speaker of english. I can easily lapse into romantic tamil or malayalam without the recipient feeling uncomfortable.

#41- Ardy,

Ardy, it's interesting that you bring up Turkey, although I am not sure Turkey stands cleanly as an example of a successful secular Muslim government- albeit, one with some serious problems. And one of those problems is significant denial of what happened to the Armenians less than 100 years ago. This inability to reconcile a nationalistic and manipulated religious past with the "modern secular" State (+ the fact that Attaturk truncated Turkish history by switching to the Roman Alphabet has created a schizophrenic populace in some areas- and thus the suicides that Pavluk writes about in Snow. May the lesson lies in what Turkey has not done rather that what it seems to have done.

I have read men in white in the past and have found it generously littered with petulant tripe, from the author as well as the commenters. I wouldn't give Mr. Kesavan and his writing any more attention that it deserves.

May the lesson lies in what Turkey has not done rather that what it seems to have done.

You could very well be right. They have a lot of conflict even today and I think the primary reason is that the Army tries to be artificially secular and tries to be overly European while denying their own culture and religion. However. I do like the approach the current Prime Minister s doing - a religious guy whose wife wears the Hijab and who is trying to balance secularism with their religion. The army there of course is not too happy. The point was that they do have success in certain things and together with their failings can be used to learn things from.

Petulant tripe is right, that's how I would describe the current article in question.
It is wordy, logic presented is hard to follow and doesn't make much sense. Plus love the way
he excludes women, people over 60 and younger than 25 and bloggers who don't blog in English and lack of facts
to support his sweeping generalizations.
Based on his current article I will in future avoid reading what Mr Kesavan has to say.
By the way I am DBD, equally comfortable in English and my mother tongue. Though its little bit rusty since I don't have the opportunity
to use it as much since I no longer live in India.
Also I suffer from no nostalgia for Hindi films, I have always found most of them (with a few exceptions,
films by Gurudutt come to mind) to be silly, overly long and in general a waste of time.

I would be mighty curious to see an analysis of blogs with some numbers.More particularly, on what side of the normal curve is this diversity? Stereotypes are often formed on the majority world-view.

% of Indian women who have/do not have mommy blogs and food blogs and poetry blogs
% of Indian women bloggers who blog about sports
% of men bloggers who blog/do not blog about cricket, bollywood and English novels

May the lesson lies in what Turkey has not done rather that what it seems to have done.

Turkey did something interesting with language that India has tried to do as well...supposedly 'purify' it. The written language of Turkey used to be Ottoman Turkish, which was a Turkish substrate, overlaid with a heavy Perso-Arabic vocabulary, and written in the Perso-Arabic script. This to me is analagous to Urdu, which has a Hindi substrate with heavy Perso-Arabic borrowings and loanwords. Modern Turkish was created by removing all the Perso-Arabic words, replacing them with either original Turkish words OR NEWLY-COINED Turkish words, and writing it in the Roman script. Similarly, modern Hindi was formed by removing all the Perso-Arabic words from Urdu, replacing them with Sanskrit, and writing it in Devanagari script. The parallels are amazing. The difference is that in colloquial Hindi, a large amount of Perso-Arabic vocab remains, whereas in colloquial Turkish, there is very little of that left. Personally I like colloquial Hindi because it better reflects the history of its region...which includes the Mughal heritage too.

Anyway, I know some Turkish people in NYC, they are all nominally Muslim, but you would never guess that...they rarely pray, they drink alcohol, sometimes they eat pork, and they are fairly relaxed about female sexuality (meaning that the men don't mind if the women are dating, even if they're dating non-Turks or whatever). The ones I know do not fast for Ramadan, but will still party for Eid. Considering that their great-grandparents would all have been traditional, conservative Muslims, it's amazing the kinds of changes that society has been through.

If you want to see things change, you will have to get mainstream Hindus enrolled in the effort to defend secularism.

And, why should they defend secularism when BS like the following is forced on them?

Bihar official faces suspension for sporting tilak

Thanks L for choosing to not respond!

Thanks L for choosing to not respond!

I probably am missing some of the context behind your comment, but why don't we want to have a rational discussion about mainstream Hindus (at least a large part) leaning away from secularism.

Are you thinking that discussion would hijack this thread? If that's your logic, I am on board. Don't have much to offer on desi blogs - SM is the only one I have time for.

Telugodu:
First of all I think people who want to wear tilaks should be allowed to. I am all for freedom of expression.
Does it equally bother you when moral police in India who make rules for what people (mostly women) should wear. For example the rules banning jeans, t-shirts etc for female students on campuses in India.

How do you figure that "mainstream" hindus are leaning away from secularism? what exactly do you mean by secularism?
Do you mean the pandering practiced by Congress and the socialist parties or do you mean keeping religion out of politics?

the merits/demerits of his arguments about anglophone indians aside, i didn't find his column sexist. he says in the first line he's referring to anglophone indian men of a certain age and i think all his subseqent comments refer to them. he's commenting about a specific slice of the indian blogosphere and not the indian blogosphere as a whole (which includes women, different languages etc), as far as i can see. he does switch between anglophone indian men and the more general indian anglophones, but i think he uses them to refer to the same subset of men. it's just an off-the-cuff -- perhaps somewhat simplisitc -- personal musing on certain indian bloggers.

Modern Turkish was created by removing all the Perso-Arabic words, replacing them with either original Turkish words OR NEWLY-COINED Turkish words

Right. This is why modern Turks like Orhan Pamuk have to read "translations" of the Ottoman classics in his tradition. No one in Turkey can make heads or tails out of pre-Kemalite Turkish!

Anyway, I know some Turkish people in NYC, they are all nominally Muslim, but you would never guess that...they rarely pray, they drink alcohol, sometimes they eat pork, and they are fairly relaxed about female sexuality (meaning that the men don't mind if the women are dating, even if they're dating non-Turks or whatever).

Right. Very relaxed, western mode of life. Many of them consider themselves "philosophical Sufis" but would abhor living by any sort of Islamic code.

Amitabh,

Attaturk's changes to Turkish are precisely what makes "modern" Turks able to sidestep the Armenian problem debate because they cannot read any of the original documents for themselves. The divorce between the present and the past is so great that they cannot fathom that what happened to the Armenians was not done by Othman Turks in some distant shadowy past but by their grandparents and great-grandparents.

#3 technophobicgeek I'm not sure if the column should be taken too seriously, it seemed somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I think a cursory glance at a random set of male desi blogs does give the reader the impression that the author conveys.

My impression exactly. The column reads like something Mukul Kesavan dashed off quickly to produce a light, readable and mildly provocative piece. Somehow, I get the impression he was trying to argue something rigorously.

4 technophobicgeek I liked the point that for an effective travel blog, the writer has to be from a 'richer' place than the subject of the blog.

For those of you who have not read it, R.K. Narayan's 'My Dateless Diary', his travel book about the United States in the 1950s is truly one of a kind. And it disproves Kesavan's point.

9 rob I agree with Razib. What is Kesavan's baseline? Some imagined golden age when all young men were poets?

Well, yes actually. Mukul Kesavan's immediate social cohort in his undergraduate college in India has produced a number of very good Indo-Anglian writers, including Allen Sealy, Amitav Ghosh, Ramachandra Guha, Upamanyu Chatterjee and Shashi Tharoor.

See

http://www.lib.latrobe.edu.au/AHR/archive/Issue-November-1997/gandhi.html

http://www.museindia.com/showcont.asp?id=266

and

http://thesaurusrex.wordpress.com/tag/st-stephens/

16 Brij

Why Naipaul? Why not nature? Or Napier? Or the nadeswaram? Why Bachchan? And not Burma? Or Bhojpuri?

Kesavan asks, and he asks it precisely of people like himself, from his generation in India. Salman Rushdie started this whole trend, with his Indian-childhood references in his novels, and it was taken up by practically every single Indian writer writing in English from then on. Mukul Kesavan is bored with this, and laments (I think) that the availability of a blogosphere has worsened the situation as every Desi (from the group he refers to) feels the need to reveal their precious childhoods in an imagined golden post-independence India. Salman Rushie, in fairness, actually alludes to this in his 'Imaginary Homelands' essay, though strictly from the viewpoint of the emigre Indian.

18 Amitabh Sadly, Punjabi is just not going to survive in the long term...I think it will be the first major Indian language to die out.

Bulle Shah must be spinning in his grave to hear sentiments like that aired so freely today. 70 million Punjabis in Pakistan and millions more in India y'know. I think it is highly unlikely!

22 Manju

Mukul Kesavan's article didn't really resonate with me. i think its a indian-british thing, with issues like the brown sahib and colonialism not too far from the suface. doen't really jibe with the indian-american experience, i think.

Spot on (as my Brit office colleague says irritatingly often). This goes back to the issue of Kesavan's cohort.

32 Runa

but saying that Hindus are harassed and discriminated is absurd in itself.

This one throws me for a loop. Kesavan's background, interests and history would hardly indicate that he would be sympathetic to the saffron brigade. Their fascist polemics of using imagined majority community grievances against minorities (think Nazis, Germany, Jews) are utterly repellent to any decent person.

And I too hate the epithet "pseudo-secular". It is a very obfuscatory term which implies that the secular are not truly secular at all, and so secularism is irrelevant in the Indian context.

14 Amardeep As for the sanitary inspector's line, the same line was used about a much worse book, Katherine Mayo's "Mother India." The person who described that book as a "drain inspector's report" (back in the early 1930s) was Mohandas K. Gandhi.

Heh. This has always amused me, since the Mahatma's own autobiography reads like one too.c.v. his passages on the sanitation and drainage arrangements of a certain well to do Gujarati family in 'The Story of My Experiments with Truth"

Amitabh:

To all the DBDs out there:

Do you think there is something to his point about Hindi movies? That for most English-educated DBDs, there comes a point, around the age of 4-6, where English penetrates and gradually drowns out the mother-tongue? And from that point on, English grows stronger and stronger while the usage of the mothertongue stagnates or atrophies? And that when that process is over by the time you're a young adult, there remains some kind of psychological longing for the earliest days of childhood when your mothertongue was the only language you knew (and in fact you were quite good at it, for your age at that time?)

I have run into v few english-educated DBDs who can't speak at least one Indian language v fluently (many can speak two, some of my friends can speak four or five). I don't know what your sample space is, but I'll guess that as an ABD it is perhaps more biased than your realize.

Bulle Shah must be spinning in his grave to hear sentiments like that aired so freely today. 70 million Punjabis in Pakistan and millions more in India y'know. I think it is highly unlikely!

I didn't say that Punjabis will die out...I said the language will die out. Only time will tell...I agree it won't happen in our lifetime. But eventually it will suffer the fate of Irish. There is really nothing in place as of now that could prevent that from happening (it's not too late to prevent it but I don't see anyone doing anything in time either). As for Pakistan, there are Pakistani proponents/activists of the Punjabi language who already predict that the Punjabis there will become a mass of people bereft of their language.

Sicilian was very strong just 60 years ago...today it's on the verge of extinction. Prior to WW One, Europe was FULL of different languages...but later, standardized versions of languages like German, French, Italian, etc. drove dozens of those regional tongues into oblivion. Swiss German is a rare exception, but it's becoming more and more like Standard German over time.

Anyway, now I'm really off-topic.

First, my biggest complaint with Kesavan’s piece is his refusal to name names. The “Republic of Blog” is for him guilty of a mind-numbing sameness, but if he doesn’t tell us what blogs he’s reading, it’s impossible to verify what he says.

I agree with this. Its like the old story of the blind men with the elephant. Kesavan probably takes an interest in a part of the blogosphere, and is mistaking that for all of it. As Amardeep points out, his own interests are not v different from those of the blogs he is tired of.

Maybe its just his midlife crisis coming through ;) .

#70 Amitabh

I didn't say that Punjabis will die out...I said the language will die out.

Nor I. My point is that there are more Punjabi speakers in this world than German speakers, and that Punjabi is not in the position of some languages with a much smaller number of speakers, such as Tulu in Southern India (or Welsh or Irish in Europe).

#69 sakshi
I have run into v few english-educated DBDs who can't speak at least one Indian language v fluently (many can speak two, some of my friends can speak four or five). I don't know what your sample space is, but I'll guess that as an ABD it is perhaps more biased than your realize.

But there are a few, though fewer than in the immediate pre & post independence years, when boarding school educations and anglicized upper-class Indian parents created a group of kids who were very shaky in their grasp of any Indian language. Kesavan arguably belongs to that group.

I'm not convinced at all, though, about his speculation about Hindi movies and their preciousness to English speaking Indians. He may be talking about his own experience, or about the more recent trope in India about Bollywood being a linchpin in defining how modern, upper-class, English-speaking India is still very authentically Indian.

When pressed you will find many an English speaking metropolitan former kid, who vastly preferred movies like the Sound of Music, or Lawrence of Arabia to the then Hindi movie competition. Somehow, it is not done to admit it, but there have been many, many Indians who simply did not like the Bollywood product particularly

Sadly, Punjabi is just not going to survive in the long term...I think it will be the first major Indian language to die out.

No. Sindhi will completely die out, if it is not dead already. The Hindu Sindhis barely speak it, mainly because they were driven out of their homeland and are living all over the world. The Muslim Sindhis of Pakistan are ashamed to be called Sindhis. 'Sindhi' is something they associate with Hindus.
I have an anecdotal experience with this. There is a call in Desi radio show here and people were calling in about some Sindhi related topic. A gentlemen called in and when the host asked him if he was Sindhi, he said .."No I am not Sindhi. I am from Sindh in Pakistan".
Punjabi on the other hand is spoken widely and there is still a big part of Punjab in India. Punjabi also features prominently in Hindi movies and songs (although the "faux" kind Punjabi). The prominence of Punjabi in Hindi movies is way too high. Almost all other Indian languages are ridiculed in Bollywood movies, except Punjabi.
Sindhi on the other hand is rarely mentioned in Hindi movies. Whenever it is mentioned it is the object of ridicule. I find excessive Punjabi representation and ridiculing of Sindhi and Gujarati and Marwadi deeply offensive.

So lets not cry for Punjabi, there are real victims(languages) who deserve attention for preservation.

The Hindu Sindhis barely speak it, mainly because they were driven out of their homeland and are living all over the world. The Muslim Sindhis of Pakistan are ashamed to be called Sindhis. 'Sindhi' is something they associate with Hindus. I have an anecdotal experience with this. There is a call in Desi radio show here and people were calling in about some Sindhi related topic. A gentlemen called in and when the host asked him if he was Sindhi, he said .."No I am not Sindhi. I am from Sindh in Pakistan".

Well, it's really not that simple...the Hindu Sindhis are certainly losing the language, at least in the younger generations...mainly because they are almost entirely a diasporic community, stretched across the globe, living as small minorities everywhere, and with each generation they get further and further from their roots in Sindh.

In Pakistan, it gets complicated because ethnic Sindhis are very barely even a majority in their own province of Sindh....Muhajirs (ethnic Urdu-speakers with roots in current-day India) are almost as numerous as Sindhis. And in Karachi, Muhajirs are a HUGE majority, followed I believe by Pashtuns, and then either Sindhis or Punjabis are next in terms of population...so in Karachi, ethnic Sindhis are a small minority even though technically the city is in Sindh province. The guy who said "No I am not Sindhi. I am from Sindh in Pakistan" was most likely an Urdu-speaking Muhajir rather than an ethnic Sindhi. The reason I say this, is because Sindhis in Pakistan are very proud of their language and culture, and have really struggled and fought very hard to win recognition and state patronage for Sindhi...many of them detest Urdu. As a result of their efforts, Sindhi is the only provincial language of Pakistan to be used as the medium of education in government schools in the province. In other provinces like Punjab, Urdu is used as the medium of education in government schools. I would say that in Pakistan at least, Sindhi is in much better shape than Punjabi.

Punjabi also features prominently in Hindi movies and songs (although the "faux" kind Punjabi).

There is no way you could call that pathetic mishmash to be Punjabi. It's basically Hindi in an overdone, stylised Punjabi accent, with a few words of Punjabi (often incorrect) thrown in. They don't get even the basics right...like in Punjabi, a man would never say 'sohniya' to a woman...he'd say 'sohniye'...nor do people say 've' to women, they say 'ni'...these are just a few examples. Basically, Hindi movie dialogues are intended to be understood by Hindi-speakers. Proper Punjabi would not readily be understood by Hindi-speakers right away (although if they heard it for a while I think they would get an ear for it and gradually start to understand a lot of it).

You know what I saw on a tv show once? This actress was trying to speak 'faux Punjabi'...she was trying to say 'kaan' (ear) in Punjabi...so she said 'kaaN'...whereas the real word is actually 'kann'.

In other provinces like Punjab, Urdu is used as the medium of education in government schools. I would say that in Pakistan at least, Sindhi is in much better shape than Punjabi.

My freind and roommate spoke Marathi almost as good as he spoke Sindhi (as he was Sindhi from Pune). Anyways, I hope that Sindhi language is retained somehow. I have memories of counting in Sindhi while playing Gulli-Danda back home.

In general Pakistani educated elite

There are few Sindhis in that group.

but have yet to come across a Pakistani Sindhi to first proclaim that he/she is Sindhi and then also attempt to speak the langugage. May be my sample size is smaller.

There are few Pakistani Sindhis in the West. I have only met one in my life...and he was very proud to be Sindhi and speak Sindhi.

Anyways, I hope that Sindhi language is retained somehow.

Agreed. It's a charming language, with an earthy and warm sound. A very good friend of mine is Sindhi, I hear it at his house all the time, and I really like it. I actually do think Sindhi will survive in Pakistan for a while yet...because they have something in place to protect it (Sindhi-medium education, as well as the political dimension of Sindhi vs. Muhajir).

#69 sakshi I have run into v few english-educated DBDs who can't speak at least one Indian language v fluently (many can speak two, some of my friends can speak four or five). I don't know what your sample space is, but I'll guess that as an ABD it is perhaps more biased than your realize.

But there are a few, though fewer than in the immediate pre & post independence years, when boarding school educations and anglicized upper-class Indian parents created a group of kids who were very shaky in their grasp of any Indian language. Kesavan arguably belongs to that group.

I'm not convinced at all, though, about his speculation about Hindi movies and their preciousness to English speaking Indians. He may be talking about his own experience, or about the more recent trope in India about Bollywood being a linchpin in defining how modern, upper-class, English-speaking India is still very authentically Indian.

Sakshi,

Well said,

If you speak only english, you can't possibly be talking to a lot of people in India.

But the sad truth is (or was, until a couple of decades ago), that an upper-class person in Bombay (or Delhi) could talk to all the people who mattered to him or her. Very, very basic Hindi (with plenty of grammatical mistakes and howlers) sufficed for basic communication with the hoi-polloi.

But the sad truth is (or was, until a couple of decades ago), that an upper-class person in Bombay (or Delhi) could talk to all the people who mattered to him or her.

But you are right, I occasionally run into people who have managed with english alone, so they still exist. I just wanted to make the distinction that getting an english education does not automatically mean you lose your mother tongue. It is a common and dangerous misconception because: a) ultimately its the responsibility of the parents to pass their language and culture on, if they want to, and it absolves them of the responsibility, b) people expect the state to take charge and make sure the culture is not lost, usually with kooky ideas like converting all govt. school education to the regional language. The kids from poor families are then saddled with the task of preserving the greatness of the culture, while the rich kids get an english education, with all the privileges it brings in India.

Sindhi will completely die out, if it is not dead already.

this is really unfortunate. i am one of the very few of my generation who can speak it, which is basically thanks to my grandfather and mother who spoke to us only in sindhi and expected us to make the effort to converse in the language as well (until I was about 10 or so my grandfather had a strict rule that none of his grandkids could speak in any other language at his house). at that time i thought that this was pretty fascist of him, but ultimately i am glad that i learned to speak and love the language. most of my cohort does not speak sindhi (and i cannot neither write it nor claim a familiarity with sindhi fiction and poetry). many of the people in my parents' generation were ashamed of being sindhi - to the extent that i know of many families changing their last name en masse (since sindhi last names are generally very recognizable). although hindu refugees from pakistan were never stigmatized to the extent that the muhajirs in pakistan are, a lot of people feel distinctly uneasy about being sindhi; perhaps because the fragmented nature of the community and its traditional professional paths make them want to appear assimilated and also due to the fear of being confused with sindhi muslims.

Sindhi will completely die out, if it is not dead already.

hey there are lots of sindhi-speaking communities. infact, hindu sindhi, i dont know much but i have seen them worship a young looking holy man. and i haven't seen the young resent the language or culture, infact they are quite proud of it,maybe its coz they are the richest people in my place, but the commmunity is nowhere near dying.

on sindhi,
Great to hear your account. Nice that some people are trying to preserve it. It would be a shame to lose it.

although hindu refugees from pakistan were never stigmatized

but the commmunity is nowhere near dying.

many of the people in my parents' generation were ashamed of being sindhi - to the extent that i know of many families changing their last name en masse (since sindhi last names are generally very recognizable). although hindu refugees from pakistan were never stigmatized to the extent that the muhajirs in pakistan are, a lot of people feel distinctly uneasy about being sindhi;

Since this is coming from a Sindhi, I have to accept that there must be some truth to it, but it's very counter to my experience with Hindu Sindhis...the ones I've met (and I've met a lot, of both my gen and the older gen) have invariably been proud of being Sindhi and fond of the language (despite being unsuccessful at transmitting it to their kids). Sindhi Hindus from my experience love to party and are very outgoing people...the distinctly Sindhi aspects of their culture are receding, but as a community they seem to share a lot of personality traits that set them apart from other Indian groups. One thing I noticed...even more than other groups, they seem to be embracing Bollywood culture to fill the vacuum of the loss of Sindhi culture. Another thing is, that they live in far-flung places like Indonesia, Hong Kong, Dubai, Kuwait, Spain, the USA, the Caribbean...but they are so tightly-knit as a community...they have global links with other Sindhis throughout the world. I'm convinced that between any two Sindhi anywhere on the globe, there are at most three degrees of separation. And most of them feel strongly about marrying only other Sindhis...something they've been fairly successful with so far.