September 06, 2007
A Potpourri of NPRNews
Not that you care, but I almost named this post A Salmagundi of NPR. However, I’m smitten with the way some Desis say “potpourri”, so I couldn’t resist the allure of that word. Oh, how do they say it? Like so: pottu-puri
None of these stories feels substantial enough to merit their own post; what does feel significant is perking up FOUR times during Morning Edition, because there are four different sepia-colored stories! That’s almost a fifth of the program! Here is what I (and undoubtedly fellow NPR-phile-Abhi, as well) heard:
1) Moray Eels are toothy!
Scientists in California have reported that Moray eels have a set of teeth within a second set of jaws, called the pharyngeal jaws, that help them capture their prey.
Once the Moray eel secures its prey with its first set of jaws, the pharyngeal jaws reach up from its throat, grabbing and pulling the prey down through its esophagus.
One of you already has an itchy-trigger-comment finger, I know it, so stop it— the brown angle is a-comin’…
Rita Mehta is a post-doctoral researcher at the University of California Davis who studies the evolution of diversity in eel feeding behavior.
Like, whoa. Not only is there a female scientist to celebrate, this has to do with my alma mater as well! w00t Davis! We study Moray Eels!
“What we discovered is that the pharyngeal jaws of Moray’s have the greatest mobility of any pharyngeal jaws ever documented,” Mehta says.
There’s this legendary tri-Delt who might have something to say about that finding, but whatevs. Listen to all this and more (though it won’t include anything about the storied, jaw-less one), for yourself, here.
2) This is a story that some of you have submitted to the news tab:
Air travel has been hellish this summer. And Nepal Airlines was no exception. Technical problems with one of its two Boeing 757 planes has meant weeks of delays. Finally, the state-run airline turned to the gods for help. It sacrificed two goats to the Hindu Sky god Akash Bhairab in front of the plane, and afterward the 757 made a successful run from Kathmandu to Hong Kong.
I just quoted the entire piece, but you may find it here if you are being the desiring.
3) Turnabout is a great play for Wipro:
Indian software firm Wipro plans to open a big software design center in Atlanta. The Bangalore, India-based firm expects to hire around 500 computer programmers in the next three years. It’s a curious turnabout from the much more familiar story: a U.S. software company creating jobs in India. [NPR]
I’ve heard various versions of this news story, but until today, it didn’t occur to me that one of the biggest reasons for this is “National Security”. Now Wipro can work on U.S. Defense contracts, thanks to Amreekan yengineers who are also familiar with this country’s mores. Why that matters in a cube farm, you will have to tell me.
Finally, 4). Another recycled blurb about the “unpredictable” happening in the world of business. First, Wipro comes to America, now B-school grads are going to Infy in India! Like you didn’t already know that…
Hundreds of recent business school graduates from U.S. colleges are taking jobs in Indian companies. India’s second biggest tech company, Infosys, just hired 300 Americans to work in its Bangalore office. They say it’s more exciting than an entry level job in the slower-growing U.S. economy. And with a much lower cost of living in India, it doesn’t matter if they only earn a fraction of what they would make working for a tech company in Silicon Valley. [NPR]
Am I the only one who is starting to feel like they’re missing out, by being here instead of yonder and by yonder, I mean the country my parents left, because they thought America was all that and a bag of jackfruit chips? Anyone? Buehler?
anna on September 6, 2007 06:40 PM in Animals, Business, News, Science, Tech · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Regarding (2):
Wow.
#4 is pretty cool. I wonder if India will be seen as a competitive employer in the long run for US-born (I'm assuming any of the Bus School grads are actually US-born) grads. Competitive I mean in terms of gross benefits/salary in addition to the "excitement" factor of living/working abroad while one is (again, assuming) still relatively young.
I'd do it... uh... once I get an MBA...
davis was #1 in evo bio grad programs 2 years ago. no surprise (i think it is still in the top 5, though chicago is #1 this year).
Am I the only one who is starting to feel like they’re missing out, by being here instead of yonder and by yonder, I mean the country my parents left, because they thought America was all that and a bag of jackfruit chips? Anyone? Buehler?
it all depends on what you want out of life. if you want economic growth, brownland and china is the way to go, and the transnational business overclass are going to be stationed there or start there careers there. a friend in NYC was talking about how her yuppie-mother friends are getting mandarin tutors for their young-uns. that being said, if you want a middle class life i think america is still a better bet than india. and of course...my impression is that the competition for slots at good schools in india is pretty intense.
anyway, it is great that economic growth in asia means that everyone has more choices. it is obviously good for indians and chinese, but it is also good for many americans (cheaper products & services, new markets).
I heard 2 & 4 on my way to work this AM!
Re 4: The blurb mentioned that many don't care about working for a "fraction" of the cost because of the low cost of living. But from what I know Bangalore is soon becoming another Mumbai with expensive rents and lifestyle, so I'm not really sure if that correlates.
But as a non-brown person you are treated like royalty at the bars/clubs. A friend of mine was there for work for about a month and all the desis at the office he was working at always wanted him to go out with them because they don't let groups of guys into bars unless they have at least one girl or white dude with them. No kidding.
Davis graduates the most biological science students of any university in the US - that's from my UC Davis magazine. I am proud to say that I am a science graduate of Davis - GO AGGIES!
Re: #4, when I was teaching in India a couple of years ago, I gave a talk at Infosys as part of some training program they were doing on IP. It was eye-opening to see so many non-Indians walking around the (stunning) campus. Along the same lines, on my flight over I sat next to a Spanish woman who lived in Bangalore and worked for some Indian IT company there -- she wasn't high-level management or anything like that, she just said that she thought she could get better experience working in Bangalore than back home. For someone like me, who went to high school in Bangalore but is far more likely to find my HS classmates in the US than in India, it was amazing to hear of someone from a country like Spain moving to India in search of a career.
Agree with Razib generally. There are certainly business opportunities in India, and it is great that opportunities exist there that people didn't have 10-15 years ago or earlier. But money-making aside, IMO, life is still more comfortable, and avenues for personal enrichment more easily available, in the US.
I wonder if India will be seen as a competitive employer in the long run for US-born (I'm assuming any of the Bus School grads are actually US-born) grads.
Most of them are. Right now, the top two internship programs @ MIT Sloan, and Wharton and all are China first (by a long shot), and then India.
About 10-15% (quoted widely by many sources) of people currently at MNCs (Multi National Corporations) in India are expats.
Working for an Indian Tea Company or East India Company in 1800s, and Intel in Bangalore in 2000s is not a bad option. Often EEC employees were second born sons (not much wealth inherited) of British upper class, and soldiers of fortune.
Anna, it is "Bueller".
I'm not sure about Bangalore, and I'm not sure about Americans, but Mumbai when I was there in the winter, had a very visible European presence in the clubs and lounges...and the majority were working in Mumbai for various defined time periods/projects, they weren't tourists. I had never seen anything like that on previous trips to India. Things are definitely changing. Europeans I think are generally ahead of Americans (and more adventurous) when it comes to living abroad. A good example is Dubai, full of Brits and Germans, but few Americans...despite it being a great opportunity for Americans too. But in any case, people are following the money, and they'll go where the work is, so I guess places like Mumbai and Bangalore will have ever larger numbers of European and probably American (non-desi)expats living there in the next 10-15 years.
Yeah the East is great for growth, especially entrepreneurs. I was in China recently on a short trip. Shanghai is utterly amazing. It arguably has superior infrastructure to New York, and there is a genuine sense of purpose, a national imperative, in addition to a very welcoming attitude to foreigners - there are MANY Americans set up there. There is money to be made. But if your an average guy in the 75-150K income range, like a temparate climate, stability, decent affiordable education for your children, the rule of law and trips to Costco on the weekends, I think America will be your best bet for another generation.
I agree with what you're saying, but it's very sobering to think we talk of America in these terms now (that it's only got a few more good decades)...
i think the demise of the us economy is wildly exagerted....
The U.S. economy may continue to do well...but as Branch Dravidian said on another thread, that may no longer have much to do with the actual standard of living of the majority of the population.
i think it will take a long time before the living standards of the vast majority of people in developing countries (even rapidly developing ones) will catch up to living standards for the vast majority of people int he US. growth takes time. a lot of time. its great that its happening, but, its not going to happen instantly.
In a few more decades, sometime around 2050-2075, India's economy will be about the same size as the US economy will be then, if growth rate differentials continue to be what they have been in the past few years. India will have about four times as many people - about 1.5 or 1.6 Billion vs 375-400 million in the US. And India might end up as a sort of 'junior US', where many US companies will have huge operations, and Indian companies likewise will have a presence in the US (i.e. like Wipro above).
If the transition goes well, then the Indian and US economies will complement each other perfectly - Indian companies, and US companies in India will do software and BPO; while US companies in the US will do hi-tech hardware - reactors and planes, at least initially. And Indians and Americans could end up being good friends and treating each other as social equals, and interact in interesting and unforeseen ways. If things go differently, it will be a literal re-colonization of India, and the Bangalore bar scene and Bombay club scene described by BadIndianGirl and Amitabh will magnify in their ugh-iness, and de facto 'whites-only' bars and clubs could return, if indeed they haven't done so already. And while internally, India could turn into a Brazil that is about ten times as large (as Razib noted in another thread) - the hope is it will turn into thirty South Koreas if all goes well.
Mira Kamdar's 'Planet India' offers an interesting, if mostly optimistic take on what might happen, and how things might unfold over the next several decades. Some of the things India is planning to do in the next 50 years boggle the mind - for example, the civilian nuclear capacity that India alone is planning to add during that period, is about the same size as the total worldwide nuclear capacity today. These and related infrastructure-building opportunities in India will be like the building of the railroads in the 19th century - in their profit potential for international capital, in their employment potential in India, and in their ability to provide new possibilities. It will be upto Indians to design policies and take actions that make those new possibilities meaningful and beneficial to them, a significant challenge in itself.
BTW - NPR's sister network PBS, has had excellent news coverage out of Pakistan all last week and this week. Podcasts are available here.
let's not forget hyderabad. as i mentioned in another post, my family moved here early this year from the US. my husband is a partner in PE and in the neighbourhood we live in, there are at least 25 microsoft families who've moved from seattle (MS's new campus is 2 doors down) over the last 2-3 years. and that's not counting the hundreds of folks we know in their 30s and 40s who've moved here to take senior management jobs in IT, consulting, etc.
the indian school of business (next door) is highly competitive and almost IMPOSSIBLE to get into, though the fees are higher than UofC (in dollars).
my son (13) goes to an international school and is very happy (except missing playing baseball). 70% of the kids are american (mostly of parents of indian origin), and quality of life is pretty good (that might be cause we still have TP from the US :-).
all in all, good experience of living overseas and at the very least, my son will have a little more worldview of the east before moving back home.
and yes, puli is correct about the average person's standard of living in india vs US. i don't see that changing drastically any time soon - though there are a multitude of factors for that, which we won't go into here.
however, in this area at least, because of the development, i've noticed a lot more people are employed consistently and are learning new skills, so i guess evry bit makes a difference.
real estate prices blow! in the hot areas (hyd, pune, b'lore) land and housing pices are equivalent to the US. the house across the street sold for $900K!!!
I NEVER thought of this...YIKES. You are right.
i think it will take a long time before the living standards of the vast majority of people in developing countries (even rapidly developing ones) will catch up to living standards for the vast majority of people int he US. growth takes time. a lot of time. its great that its happening, but, its not going to happen instantly.
Right. But the standard of living for many Americans is not so assured as it once was. We know empirically that income inequality is increasing. A couple of months ago, there was an an essay in Harpers about Detroit which tells of how the city has gone back to cottage industry and organic (really subsistence) farming; that will likely happen elsewhere. Many of the service area of the economy, particularly financial services, could very easily shift off shore, unless you believe there is something unique about American creativity or its "spirit," which might be arguable. Even in what manufacturing there is, nothing says American multinationals must build here; in fact most of them don't. There will likely come increasing competition in knowledge production from where the manufacturing is, namely China, though its still very early in the process. I don't think American technological hegemony, whch is the source of much of its prosperity, is a given.
What I would watch is the universities. Right now American universities reign supreme. If that supremacy begins to be questioned, because, eg, top-flight talent comfortably locates elsewhere, then I would start to worry even more.
A couple of months ago, there was an an essay in Harpers about Detroit which tells of how the city has gone back to cottage industry and organic (really subsistence) farming; that will likely happen elsewhere.
come on, detroit is not the future of most of america. in fact, go across the border to auburn hills and you see something very, very, different. there are some serious institutional problems in the city of detroit.
1) of course america's relative status is going to decline.
2) so what? we're individuals, and though we might love our country what does it really matter that we have incomes 10 X or 2 X or 0.5 X that of another nation over the seas?
3) the inequality that matters is that which you have with your fellow citizens, so that is a concern. the premium on skilled labor is increasing, and the increased supply of unskilled labor via immigration means that the non-college sector is going to have flat wages for a long time.
btw, about china, i have friends who are stationed there. most of the expats want to have their money and jet as soon as possible, the pollution is horrible and there is the cost and expense of buying a lot of premium basic goods because of the ubiquity of debasing products (e.g., my friends have a toddler, and they buy food and water from a someone who supplies to expats because the local product is so often bad in some way [e.g., the infamous card-board dumplings]). to get rich is glorious, but the cost is incredible. people don't sit on the grass in shanghai cuz of the soot and detritus that gets on their asses.
I am sure some enterprising Indian will create nostalgia tours for people who miss South African apartheid. No one genuflects & kisses butt quite like us.
RE: #1
NPR links to the high speed video used to observe the high mobility of the pharyngeal jaw, but it's in freakin realplayer format .. some short googling leads to this video.
Akil
So Moray Eels have jaws and teeth....hmmm I did not know that. So that's why my arm hurts and bleeds so much when they bit me. What's next fish have fins?
The original Aggies reside in College Station, Texas by the way. Gig 'em! :)
ANNA's post: "Am I the only one who is starting to feel like they’re missing out, by being here instead of yonder and by yonder, I mean the country my parents left, because they thought America was all that and a bag of jackfruit chips?"
You are not missing out on anything IF you say yes to the all of the following:
1. You are an ABD and, therefore, you are living in your natural habitat. (Some zoologocal influence from your post.)
2. You do not have lots of family and friends in India with whom you feel a bond. Everybody you care for are here, not there.
3. You are reasonably successful in your chosen profession, i.e, you are not a Ph.D. in English driving a cab in NYC when you could be teaching English at a pricey institute in Delhi and live like a potentate.
If you said yes to all three, you are living in the best country in the world - for you. There are intangibles about America that are not found anywhere in the world, and I am not talking about good roads. I will give you one "for instance." As much as I love India, and do have a second home there and plan to retire there, I would not want my teenage ABD daughter live in India as a grown woman. I know my EENDIA too well. I will get into trouble with a lot of mutineers if I elaborate. So I won't.
Any ABDs ever thought (even whimsically) about retiring in India? By the time we get to retirment age (another 30-40 years for most of us) India won't be cheap though...the nicer areas might be more expensive than most places in the West.
Floridian, come on! That's the topic Anna raised, and we could all benefit from your perspective and first-hand experience, even if we don't eventually agree. And why you would want something for yourself while shielding, if that is the word, your daughter from it, is just the kind of thing SM would want to know, both DBD and ABD. Please don't hold back!
come on, detroit is not the future of most of america. in fact, go across the border to auburn hills and you see something very, very, different. there are some serious institutional problems in the city of detroit.
Dude, I said elsewhere in America, not *most* of America. No we are not all becoming Detroit or New Orleans overnight, and no, I dont think we are on the brink of Third World status - I think certain things point to "relative" decline, as you put it - and I think its suspect to think America will maintain technology hegemony forever, a lot of the innovation will come from those closest to the manufacturing, which is not America. I forsee service "rust belts."
Floridian makes a quip about American roads. But has anyone noticed the state of American infrastructure? Drive from Queens to Manhattan, or along the Pulaski skyway. Its not very good and will take maybe a trillion to replace. Perhaps we have "great works" stimulus projects in our future.
#16 Meenu: "and that's not counting the hundreds of folks we know in their 30s and 40s who've moved here to take senior management jobs in IT, consulting, etc."
IT and certain pockets of consulting and finance seem to be the only professions that pay well enough in India to attract a reverse brain drain. I haven't run across any engineers, professors and doctors - the typical professions for Indian in the US - that returned from the US to work in India. I was appalled to find out that a professor at IIM, which is India's Harvard or Wharton, makes UGC scale, which is about Rs. 50,000 a month. A family of four will have to live very frugally to survive in one of the big cities on 50K a month, and frugal in India is very, very painful. I don't know if IIM professors are allowed to consult or sit on boards for a fee. If they are, they could be making a lot more.
There are some BPO companies in India paying Rs.100-150K a month for US trained managers and using them to get and service American clientele. Despite the high salaries, these jobs do not require advanced degrees or specialized training as the high paying IT jobs do. If someone who has studied and worked in the US and has a flair for getting customers, the high paying jobs are in Indian companies that sell goods and services to foreign countries. GO EAST, YOUNG MAN...AND WOMAN!
i was looking at gigs in india once. the "Wall street" type jobs pay a small fraction of ny/london/hk levels. i doesnt remotely make sense. people were saying "ohhh...thats such a high paying job offer". but, it really wasnt....
Agreed! I'm on pins and needles. Floridian, what a tantalizing comment you left. :)
No. I got equal family in the US and India. But all my friends are here in the US. While I relate to Indian family stuff, the non family stuff leaves me with little interaction with other Indians. I went to India recently. I enjoyed catching up with my cousins. And it was interesting looking at how india changed. Liked part of the changes, but hated the way density and pollution and prices have ramped up over there. I actually find life in the US more relaxed.
Let's not forget education. If you go to a good school in the US. life for a student is better in the US. Indian students have no lives.
Oh, and I cannot stand Bollywood movies.
But never say never. I consider myself a little bit of a global citizen lately. Once you go through college, we get to meet and be friends with so many citizens of the world, any nationalistic tendencies one used to have tend to get diluted.
the air/water quality and the healthcare/legal system is still too bad for me to live there. maybe that will change by the time im old and grey. not yet though.
also, if i was there with a wife, or grlfriend, i would want them to be able to do anything without me without any fear of sexual harrasment. easy in the US, hard in india. that also might change, but not yet.
I have a lawyer buddy who set up a legal BPO in chandigarh. He's employed about 100 attorneys. Seems to like it. But though he was born here, he is very much culturally Punjabi - and speaks the language fluently, and that's probably a critical factor in his happiness. If you are not so into that, then you would not easily put up with the bureacracy, nonsense, pathetic infrastructure, torrid weather, etc.
Puliogre #34
Depends on where in India you are talking about, I know for a fact that Bombay/Pune and Bangalore are not as bad for single women. Delhi unfortunately is pretty bad, most single women will not even think of going out alone in the evenings in Delhi. Mumbai on the other hand is one of the safest places in India and I have friends who routinely travelled from town (South Bombay) to suburbs (areas north of Mahim) in the evenings. I am optimistic that it will change.
#27 Chachaji: "And why you would want something for yourself while shielding, if that is the word, your daughter from it, is just the kind of thing SM would want to know, both DBD and ABD. Please don't hold back!"
Awwright, Chachaji, since you twisted my good arm (the other one is broken and in a cast), I'll take a shot at it.
First of all, there is no double-standard or hypocrisy in my own desire to return to India while gladly endorsing my daughter's desire to continue living in the US. I am an Indian, she is an American. I might have lived in the US for 35 years, but the first 20 years of your life shape your core cultural identity and values. Why would I think that the first 15 years of her life, lived in America, have failed to form and shape her as my life in India did me? I would consider that to be hypocrisy, as if the Indian culture was of a higher order than the American, or as if infusing your ABD with Bal Vihar and Bharatnatyam is supposed to block the antibodies of American culture crawling inside their system and preserve them as Indians
To continue on, for my wife and me, India, with all its faults, will always be home. To my teenage ABD daughter, the US, with all its faults, is home. She is by no means any more Americanized than other desi children. She is actually very involved with Indian culture and Hindu religion, enjoys visiting India and appreciates the beauty and cultural nuances beneath the chaotic, noisy, and occasionally filthy surface of India. She respects India and what it means to her parents, and to some extent, to her. I think I should respect what America means to her. In fact, it doesn't even have to mean anything to her. It is just who and what she is.
To uproot her from her natural habitat (it's that zoological post) may not be such a cruel act if it would improve her life in meaningful ways. However, I would argue that, in her case, a move to India would be a poor trade-off just because she is a female. Women's equality in India is still a work in progress. I can amplify this statement with a dozen examples, but why not let the mutineers do it?
I hope it helps, Chachaji. Parenting is ultimately subjective. What we feel is right for our family may not be right for somebody else's.
Floridian,
I really enjoy your persective on issues on this forum. I 100% agree with everything you have written in your last post. Hypothetically if your daughter decided to move to India on her own would you support her decision?
my problem is just that they are "not as bad". i would rather have it be the same as a ny/london/hk. its not (yet). maybe it will be for my kids, but not yet.
Puliogre,
I absolutely understand where you are coming from, they are not there yet, actually by not as bad I meant they are safe.
that aside, i wouldnt mind living there. they would need to pay me a supernormal amount of money to live there (relative to ny/london/hk). they are not. they pay less (in my line of work). therefore, its a no go...unless i can get a 1y foreign assignment where i keep at my US comp level, and return after a year. all my american friends that are on foreign assignment in india get a lot of....
#38: " Hypothetically if your daughter decided to move to India on her own would you support her decision?"
I would secretly gloat. Never underestimate the confusing behavior of desi parents.
Puliogre,
I remember reading you are Derivatives Sales, I work in finance as well and have many friends working for US banks in India and some have moved after working in the U.S. You will be surprised at the comp levels, most people are working the INR equivalent of their salaries and bonuses in India with larger stake in performance and phenomenal perks. I have a friend who is head of sales for a bulge bracket bank in India and he is raking in unheard sums of money. The cost of living is still not as high as New York or London and that is the real advantage. $100K, which is about 4 million in Indian rupees goes a long way even in a city like Bombay.
hmm...the packages i was seeing was MUCH less than the offers here. not sure why.
Puliogre,
Give it a couple of years as I think the financial derivatives market is still coming into its own. I can point you to some people if and when you ever decide.
Floridian, thanks for the response. Appreciated your candor, and while you're in such a mood, I was wondering if you would also care to elaborate on the lower productivity in 'American settings' in India that you mentioned in the thread on Gregory Clark some days ago, if I remember right, in the BPO enclaves in Gurgaon. I would be interested in whether this was a subjective observation, or whether you used some metrics, and either way, some details on what you saw. If this is more than a transitory phenomenon, or something that would also apply elsewhere in India, I think it would be a relevant criterion to consider, both in figuring out India's likely evolution in the aggregate, and on the choices of individual ABDs and DBDs on moving, or moving back. I wonder to what extent the supposed lower productivity results from a lack of a sense of being vested in the enterprise, a sense of being exploited, perhaps?
Also, your observation on BPO companies paying high salaries to Indians who would drive other Indians to serve American clientele reminds me of nothing as much as overseers in a plantation environment. In some ways the huge cubicle farms where the BPO and software are done, seem to be turning into modern-day plantations.
my next career move: "massah"
I thought your wife was from the Carribean, Floridian. Would'nt the transition "back home" be just as difficult for her?
Come on man. Working in a call center servicing/selling consumer products can't provide meaning or intellectual stimulation, but likening it to a plantation system is clearly hyperbole and minimizes the hardships of indentured labor. My critique of this part of outsourcing, with which most Westerners are familiar, is that it is easily transported out of India and doesn't really provide a stepping stone to anything else.
#48: "I thought your wife was from the Carribean, Floridian. Would'nt the transition "back home" be just as difficult for her?"
I have made an honest woman out of her in 35 years of matrimony. But seriously, even her first 16 years of life in Trinidad was a very Indian life, as most Trinidad Indians would tell you. The population is 45% Indian. She then spent most of her youth in India, and of course, we keep going back. Also, her mother was from India and, as a result, she has a lot of her own relatives there. As for our r2i goal, we'll have to see how it works out for all of us.
#46 · chachaji
A tall order, and something I wish I could fill while this thread was still current. I often read your well thought out comments.
Speaking of ABD's living/working in India, has anyone obtained an "Overseas Citizen of India" (OCI) card ? I know that it is not a true dual citizenship (though people refer to it as such), but the info I am finding on the consulate web page is kind of vague. It says it gives the holder the same rights as an NRI with respect to "economic, financial, and educational opportunties". Does this mean that an OCI card holder can work in India without any additional permits ? Has anyone gone through the OCI application process ?
Floridian,
Moving back or staying in US is deeply personal decision. There are no right and wrongs.
This said, I have lived longer in US than in India. Last year, I did talk to a MNC in India, but then got cold feet. But this said, I still keep that option open, and talk to people there for new opportunities.
However, my parents moved back to India after they were here in US, in late sixties (when this country was in its full glory, and India massively struggling). Most of my relatives moved back for many reasons - business, career opportunities (my father leveraged a new job from IIT(K) to U. Roorkee using American experience), home sickness, family property and its management, raising their children in a majority culture**, being with their larger family network. Even as early as 1940s when one of my uncle was in U. Minn.
Indian diaspora is tiny, tiny, tiny compared to Irish and Chinese diaspora.
They both are seeing a massive influx back to homeland, owing to Ireland and China becoming economic powerhouses.
Ireland has become from emmigrant bound to immigrant bound country. Nth generation Irish Americans are moving back. There is huge Irish Government machinery with a separate minister responsible these for the whole move back deal.
China has a new word (I am forgetting the word) for Chinese diaspora moving back. They are business persons, scientists, you name it. My sister-in-law's sister and her family who are Taiwanese-American are in Shanghai. Their great grandparents or even earlier once lived in mainland China.
** I even have a friend who is Belgium who moved back to Europe from US (through a company transfer) when she became mother because she wanted her children to be grow up there. She wanted her kids to bike in Belgium woods and countryside, be with their grandparents, and aunts and uncles. So this has nothing to something special India/ South Asian culture. Most of the western Europeans often move back for children, in my discussion with them. Same holds for India or any country. There are huge plusses in that, I can vouch for it.
Does this mean that an OCI card holder can work in India without any additional permits ? Has anyone gone through the OCI application process ?
Yes, you can work, own business, etc. There are some restrictions, very specialized though.
I know several people.
The thought of this makes me ill.
I'd hope that the type of non-desi American who'd move to India for career/cultural experiences would be open-minded adn considerate enough to not patronize such places ('whites-only').
How stupid to go all that way just to sit around and look at each other.
Are most of these non-Desi Americans, who go to work in India, white?
In the end I think its not so easy for ABDs, even long-distance nationalist types. I've lived abroad for periods. You realize how American you are in the absence of America.
#46 Chachaji: "I was wondering if you would also care to elaborate on the lower productivity in 'American settings' in India that you mentioned in the thread on Gregory Clark some days ago, if I remember right, in the BPO enclaves in Gurgaon. I would be interested in whether this was a subjective observation, or whether you used some metrics, and either way, some details on what you saw."
Read VINOD's blog on SM
July 18, 2007 Econ 101 Works
I have some metrics and a lot of anecdotal evidence. Vinod's blog quotes a McKinsey study among other things. He knows Indian BPO and software from personal experience.
None of this would ultimately hold India back. India's biggest asset is what economists call the Demographic Dividend. With nearly 70% of the population under the age of 30, the vast majority of the Indian population is currently at its peak of productivity and consumption, with several more huge population waves getting ready to feed the high productivity-and-consumption cycles over the next 50 years. Remember what the post WWII Baby Boom did for the US? Well, this is Baby Explosion, with positive economic outcomes guaranteed for the next 50 years as long as the other fundamentals, education, infrastructure development, continued global economic participation, remain in good shape. And why wouldn't they?
Floridian, I agree, the demographic profile of a 'young India' is one of the biggest things in India's favor, and in comparison, China does not have it. In fact, after 2030, the population of China will start declining, while India's will continue to increase, according to the medium fertility assumptions of the UN Population Projection. So in 2050, India will have a population of 1.66 billion versus China's of 1.41 billion according to these assumptions. But for people thinking of going, or going back, it is also the very thing that makes you bounce.
Demographic competition for resources and jobs will be strong, in fact 'strong' is a rather weak word for what is likely to happen. Of course, within India, different regions will do differently - Kerala will be different from Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. So maybe you could find a good place to be in spite of everything.
It is normally said in India's favor that it has democracy, but managing the democratic aspirations of such a huge population will present a real challenge, and might very well require fundamental Constitutional adjustments allowing both greater federalism and local confederations (such as Indistan or Dravidistan (the four Southern states) within India.
Count me in as another ABD moving to Desh. I wrote an essay about home when I was in the 6th grade, about being a foriegner at my home country, the US, and and a citizen of a strange land (India.) Now my children will grow up as US citizens in India. At least we will all share the feeling of otherness. However, unlike Meenu, we will not be moving to an expat enclave. We are planning to move back to our ancestral home, where we will be surrounded by people who weathered the license raj, and the fits and starts of globalization, and are making money now, but are priced out of the simple luxuries that were available to them in the 80's. I'll keep you all posted on the adventure.
all the best, lifelong
last year, according Indian embassy/ consulate, they saw a huge jump PIOs moving to India.
How could i have forgotten Israel in all the discussion. A significant % of Jewish Americans have dual citizenships.
The ones who move to Israel know their life will be not what is in Manhattan but they do it.
Ireland is also becoming a huge retirement community for Irish Americans, apart from business opportunities.
What do ABDs plan to do with ancestral property (if any) in India once your parents are gone? It would be foolish to ignore it and just leave it alone, since it represents real money (and if you ignore it, people will occupy it and that's a whole other headache)...but dealing with it or trying to sell it would be very tough for the average ABD.
Amitabh,
I did this. SOld both properties left to me by my dad. Of course, I'm bonking myself on the head now. But, I had to take all of my annual leave for 2 consecutive years to accomplish this.
no ancestrap properties, although i bought a bunch of properties out there. was a $hitsh0w to buy. im sure it will be even more of a $hitsh0w to hold and sell.
What do ABDs plan to do with ancestral property (if any) in India once your parents are gone? It would be foolish to ignore it and just leave it alone, since it represents real money (and if you ignore it, people will occupy it and that's a whole other headache)...but dealing with it or trying to sell it would be very tough for the average ABD.
I think if it is too precious and big, you go back to manage it.
One of my relative (he is a Wharton graduate, and worked for DuPont for long time), went back, took a job in India, and primarily to manage his property. His parents were still alive.
Same with politicians......one example is Charan Singh's son Ajit Singh or for that matter ex- US marine son of Somalia's warlord Adid.
My mom sold her land in Andhra in the late 90s since she felt there was nothing left for her to go to in India(my grandparents have both passed away). Talk about terrible timing. I tried to talk her out of it. Now that land is worth many times over. As far as Hyderabad, if you had land for the last 10 years, you hit the motherload. My cousins who settled in Hyderabad are minting money on real estate.
its a scary investment. trees dont grow to the sky.
People who had ancestral property in Malleshwaram, Bangalore have hit the jackpot. It is going in the crores just for the land. We looked at a site 60X 35 in Jayanagar. Very plainly he told us it was 98 lakhs and then closing costs which is almost another 15-20 lakhs. I just fainted right beside my husband.
All this talk of whether or not would one move to India, now or later reminds me of a curious trend. A number of non-indians - British, in majority from what I understand, have been quietly relocating to India in their senior years. One of the major draws - low cost of living so pension money goes much farther, easy hired help, good climate and relaxation in places like Goa. Check out indiamike.com - this is where I'd read a long thread about relocating to India. The folks here truly are India lovers, and you will find the best, most detailed info and comments about any/all aspects of India.
All this gung-ho about "globalization/outsourcing = more opportunities" for everybody holds good only for "neutral" business/technology areas. There is a sizeable amount of high-end business (direct &indirect) in both neutral and non-neutral fields that will not be allowed to go abroad or have foreign "influence" for reasons like foreign ownership of critical infrastructure, security concerns and intellectual property issues. These will act as dampeners on globalization because very soon the desire by developing countries to rise up the value chain will hit a road block against such protectionism. So there will be lot ot turmoil and re-division of the world into blocs and cartels.