wow 1st commenter. i don't know the history of his party but would he hesitate to insult siva, ganesh etc since most Tamils I think are Shaivites?

The Chief Minister of Lemuria, Karunanidhi,

Ouch! A bit harsh, ain't it?

I wish there was more coverage of the ecological and economic effects of this shipping channel. Instead, this stupid debate about gods, myths takes center-stage.

Ouch! A bit harsh, ain't it?

Oh...I didn't mean it to be. I consider myself a Lemurian. :) Not that I agree with ye ole fight-pickin' CM here...

Great, now we got the Hindu fundamentalists speaking out more in India. Before my pet peeve was caste. Now we got a bunch of oversensitive people who get offended by every single thing. What is wrong with what Karunanidhi said? They seriously think Rama is a real guy who built an actual bridge to Sri Lanka? Did he get Hanuman to put boulders in the water? Where did they get that from - their Amar Chitra comics?

If they object to the destruction of the area for other reasons(there was some article about the change in currents), then I have no problem. They need to let the guy express his opinion and shut up about their own ignorance.

i don't know the history of his party but would he hesitate to insult siva, ganesh etc since most Tamils I think are Shaivites?

He is an atheist and I am sure given the opportunity (if he has not already said so) he will put down any god.

Here are the religious demographics, without any stats, I think there is an equal split among shaivites and vaishnavites. In fact I think a large segment of tamils worship both sides, so I doubt that it is playing a role in his comments.

i dont know if he is gettin an under-desk bribe over this contract to build the canal or he is from the opposing party but this is just ridiculous coming from a CM. Didnt NASA say something about this too? some satellite pictures of the region?

A lot of Tamilians worship Lord Venkateshwara in Tirupati. Wouldn't that be a vaishnavite thing since he is a manifestation of Vishnu(i never understood why he is not considered one of the Dasavatarams).

I wish there was more coverage of the ecological and economic effects of this shipping channel. Instead, this stupid debate about gods, myths takes center-stage.

What was ironic was that the ship (or whatever it is called) to start digging the canal sunk, they got a crane to rescue the ship that sunk and they had to get a bigger crane to rescue both. The bigger crane was called Hanuman. No seriously, I will post the link as soon as I find it.

I dont get it. 90% of sepia's posts are focussed on India and dbds living in desh. But when the dbds out here request some coverage of issues faced in the US (Immigration Voice's rally efforts) it falls on deaf ears. Even the success of this historical rally is not mentioned. Forget any of the DC meetup atteendees just showing up during lunch to provide support.

Of course the reason might just be shallow to the point of "Oh these DBD's immigration issues - how boring - yawn"

Here is the news article that says Hanuman was sent to rescue.

Yabadaba, it is what it is. If it doesn't interest us, we will not blog about it. There is no strict guideline to give equal time to every issue. So what if a lot of DBD related stuff gets coverage. Maybe its a way for ABDs to learn more about india. Immigration minutia is not an issue for a lot of us. We did talk about Canada trying to limit names such as Singh in the past because it relates to personal identity and cultural origin.

Pravin - I agree with your comment, "They seriously think Rama is a real guy who built an actual bridge to Sri Lanka? Did he get Hanuman to put boulders in the water? Where did they get that from - their Amar Chitra comics?"

But what yanks my chain is when people are afraid to assign similar analysis to the "miracles" performed by the Jesus Christs and Muhammads of yore. Do you really believe that Jesus came back from the nether side or, Muhammad rode to heaven on a mare?

I do want to add that despite my contempt for the protestors, I would like to see them preserve the existing "bridge" for the sake of cultural importance kind of like how we preserve landmark structures. If enough people feel attached to it, why not.

for the sake of cultural importance kind of like how we preserve landmark structures. If enough people feel attached to it, why not.

Well besides cultural significance, there is apparently a very minor financial incentive, so small that a government will normally drop such projects.

I respect peoples beliefs, but this project has more holes than a jalebi.

I thought we covered the Gandhigiri-esque protest via flower delivery to USCIS? I'm trying to find the link, YabaDaba.

If we don't cover topic X, that's not necessarily a statement of our feelings re: its importance...it's almost always more about time.

It is well documented that Karuna has issues only with Hindus, Hindu Gods, Temples and beliefs and always feels compelled to put down people who practice it. He never spews the same kind of vitriol against other religious groups and entities, nor does he have any issues having an alliance with BJP when the opportunity is right.

welcome to the world of fundies; i believe that everyone should be allowed to make merciless fun of deities of all religions. but i prefer such mockery to be reserved only for people who use religious argumentation first to enforce their preferences on those who disagree (in other words i prefer not to use mockery gratuitously, only when the situation warrants it). so i cannot find fault with karunanidhi, given the situation. at the same time it seems that karuna is also tying to needle...maybe needlessly?

Yabadaba, I wrote about it this July, if that matters at all...

The most infuriating aspect of it all— people who are here illegally are now standing in the same virtual line for a limited and precious commodity. I can totally understand the pain; you do the right thing, follow the rules and then someone cuts in front of you— and you’re S.O.L. It happened when I tried to buy Pixies tickets a few years ago and that stung. I can’t imagine the anguish over this, which is 100x more important. [sm]

these sorts of issues get throw into a black & white dichotomy

1) if the CM is an atheist of course he doesn't believe that ram existed, and like many atheists he probably thinks that the imaginings of religious people are a bit silly and unproductive in the grand utilitarian scheme of things.

2) that being said, it is simply a fact of this universe that atheists are a minority, for the majority of our species gods do exist in terms how they model with the world. additionally, not only do these gods exist, but they are personalities, and people develop strong emotional attachments to them.

3) so an atheist calling out theists on these issues is going to result in some hurt. but it can go both ways, i know atheists (and various forms of theists) who are 'offended' that particular theists believe everyone not of their belief is going to hell. but in a utilitarian scheme who really cares about the beliefs of a group of people who after all believe things you believe are silly? well, it is the thought that counts sometimes, and you want them to see you as fully human beings, not just the 'unsaved' who are less than they because you don't believe in some fairy tale.

4) so in normal life there is a lot that is left unsaid. consider you hanging out with a friend who is ugly, very ugly. everyone in the room knows that your friend is ugly, including the friend. but if you comment, 'you know you're ugly!' well, that would hurt feelings. but why? nothing has changed about the facts that everyone agrees to in the room. well, now imagine that you don't agree no the facts! that makes it more complicated, doesn't it?

5) yes, from the perspective of the atheist religious people are kooks that waste a lot of time. there's really no ontological difference between massive temple complexes of the 'great religious' and a papuan fetishist cutting down the forest to construct huge cocks that they dance around to propitiate the fertility gods. that being said, say you're an atheist, and your mother just dies. she's gone. her self, her brain, is now no longer as soup of electrochemistry. she's just atoms. now, what your friend decides to step on her remains? what does that matter? they're just atoms, the remains of what was your mother. why would you care? the reality is that most atheists would care about the remains of the individual who was their loved one.

6) human psychology gives us particular biases and impulses, it confers on us a tendency to essential, animize, objects. there are all sorts of unconscious subprocesses out there which speak to why we do "irrational" things. it also speaks to the agreed up norms (axioms) which we use to judge what is, or isn't, rational. in short, humans are far more than the words they put on paper, or the short little punchy sentences they throw out in a debate. yes, i believe that nothing of sentience will be in the body of my loved one will be there if she dies, if her brain ceases to function. that being said, i'll kill anyone that suggests that i reprocess her tissue to make cat food for my pets. why? i'm not going to front, that's just how i feel about it. i honor her memory, and so i would honor her remains.

7) so from the perspective of an atheist i would say it isn't as simple as the silly beliefs of religious people that they need to get over. it's complicated, we're all embedded in a personal cloud of assumptions, biases and impulses we can't, and probably would object to, accounting for. for the religious person they need to understand that their love is not everyone else's love, that in fact, the object of their devotion is nothing but a delusion for many others (fundamentalist christians and muslims make this explicit in regards to "heathen" religion, your gods are demons and delusions, false idols). but though we may agree upon truths, humanity sometimes demands silence.

8) so we live in a gray world where compromise and give or take is reality. we're not islands, we're social beings who want to get along, we're creatures with fellow feeling. that means there isn't a rule book which separates the black from the white, the light from the dark, where the truth stands on one side and the false on the other. to my fellow atheists, we should never have shame about our beliefs, for truth, but being human does mean that we have to compromise with the universe as it is not belief ourselves gods who can create it anew in our image.

But what yanks my chain is when people are afraid to assign similar analysis to the "miracles" performed by the Jesus Christs and Muhammads of yore. Do you really believe that Jesus came back from the nether side or, Muhammad rode to heaven on a mare?

Its the DMK. They don't like God(s). It's also a bit of a north-south thing. I don't think the anti-Hinduism sentiment of Tamil Nadu (Periyar, etc) would make any sense to a Northerner.

In any case, unlike Ayodhya, which was a tragedy, this Ram-brouhaha is quickly turning into a farce. See this comment on Karuna:

BJP vice-president Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi said "such a statement could only be made by a person suffering from mental bankruptcy.

I really doubt Mr. Abbas Naqvi thinks Ram was real. So what's the state of his mental bank account?

I think both sides are coming from wrong point of views. It would be a lot saner world if the BJP came from the environmental concern view & Karuna was a little respectful to the belief of a large population & stressed of the economic front. Superstition it may be, but his statements fall on deaf ears of the mostly religious population.

@Curious #12 : Christianity can accept rational views & ignore them , but i don't think islam does. Only in hinduism or 'sanatan dharma' have they been debating this connect between physics & metaphysics truly for centuries.

No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?

--> I think he can rest assured knowing DMK cadres will burn enough buses(with or without people in them) if MK is attacked. As for his family, I am sure they have gotten used to nut case reactions. After all, they have initiated quite a few from their side too(Their family 'jewel', Azhagiri, did burn down a newspaper office 2 or 3 months back as retaliation for some articles in that newspaper) .

He likes to talk some smack, doesn’t he? Yowza.

--> Not a good idea to pick on someone who has talked smack about religion for a long time.

I know that several of you are outraged over this (and I sympathize completely…I may not be of the same faith, but I’m a person OF faith), so I hope we can all take a collective deep breath and discuss this. I know I’m not the only one who is interested in reading what some of you have to say.

--> I agree completely with what he said and am not at all outraged. Ram is a mythological character. And to use Ram Setu as the sole reason for scuttling the sethu samudram project is narrow minded ignorance, which, for religion in general, is not out of place.

What is next ? A boulder in India cannot be removed because Ram released Ahalya from it ? All squirrels are protected under Hindu religious endowments because Ram acknowledged their help in building that bridge ?

Sethusamudram project has other deficiencies. To focus on the religious aspect of it to the exclusion of others is stupidity.

An atheist managed to become the CM of an Indian state? Surely not.

I think both sides are coming from wrong point of views. It would be a lot saner world if the BJP came from the environmental concern view & Karuna was a little respectful to the belief of a large population & stressed of the economic front. Superstition it may be, but his statements fall on deaf ears of the mostly religious population.

from a religious point of view it is often more prudent to argue from a secular angle because it doesn't elicit summary dismissal. e.g., many christian social conservatives make utilitarian arguments to a general audience in the united states because they know that "the bible says so" isn't going to fly.

@Curious #12 : Christianity can accept rational views & ignore them , but i don't think islam does. Only in hinduism or 'sanatan dharma' have they been debating this connect between physics & metaphysics truly for centuries.

be careful about generalizing about a particular religion. to respond precisely, mutazili views still exist in shiism.

the CM needs to read Machiavelli. to paraphrase, while the prince should never be too religious--since excessive religious sentiment will prevent one from doing the cruel things necessary to stay in power--the prince should always appear to be religious, since then he will have the goodwill of the people, which is a prince's most powerful weapon.

anyone who know anything about neoconservatism knows we are atheists (straus, bloom, wolfowitz). but look how shrewdly bush got the support of the religious.

So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That's some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar.

ANNA:

You are right. Amardeep had posted about the gandhigiri protest. However, on Tuesday there was a rally at DC that has been called historical by some influential attorneys.

linky:
http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2007/09/iv-rally-being-.html
http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2007/09/immigrants-of-t.html

I guess here's the thing, when you guys at sepia talk about female foeticide and other social issues that are messed up in India, the feeling that we DBDs get is that you guys care about the Indian diaspora. Even though you are not Indian, like Pravin said, you guys are trying to learn about India through this medium and it shows that you care.

In a generation my ABD daughter will be where you are right now and as a parent it reaffirms my decision of raising my kid here.

But when issues like the rally or the fiasco that led to the Gandhigiri protest are ignored it feels like slight from sepia's part cos the anguish this immigration system has brought about is ridiculous.

I do believe that at one inappropriately hilarious moment during this fustercluck, Karunanidhi tried to make a point by asking where Ram went to engineering school? What the…? I mean, obviously he went to IIT. Just like Jesus went to Harvard.

No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?

Karunanidhi is precisely famous for this kind of talk. He is considered a very good and witty orator. Most of the people in TN knows he talks like this. And that is why dravidian parties win time and again. And only very religious people will be offended, which by the way are in a minority in TN. I would like to point out the outrage against his daughter was in Karnataka not TN.

(straus, bloom, wolfowitz)

bloom & strauss weren't neocons. just because jesus christ influences social conservatives doesn't mean that he's a social conservative (read the NT for example!).

An atheist managed to become the CM of an Indian state? Surely not.

nehru was an agnostic.

I'm just curious.... how many mutineers are honest-to-god (pun intended) religious believers in Ram/Krishna/Vishnu/Brahma/Laxmi/Sita and the whole panoply of Hindu gods and goddesses? I mean is there anyone who believes in the Ramayana or Bhagvata Gita as literal truth and prays to an altar of Ganesh everyday (like my mom)? Just to be clear, I'm not trying to mock anyone, I am simply curious. (And, to forestall any criticism, yes, I am aware that there are many people other than Hindus here, I am mainly curious about religious Hindus, although I would love to hear from any religiious faithful about their convictions).

This is all verrrry interesting. :) I'm learning a lot.

Also, who else hearts Shodan-san's comment? :D

Lurker here...now revealing myself.

Razib@#19: Good analysis !

I think one of the keys is the role symbols play in our lives. Even though a majority of people may not literally believe that Rama built the bridge with the help of an army of monkeys, it is still a powerful (and visible) symbol which is part of many peoples' upbringing. Any (perceived) attack on such symbols will cause a strong reaction. And we all know that during the Babri Masjid-Ram Janmabhoomi days, feelings of insecurity among Hindus was stirred up and exploited - Ram Janmabhoomi was another important symbol. The same thing is happening now.

Also it is well known that Karunanidhi is an anti-Aryan (translating, I guess to anti-Hindu). Someone like him making such harsh statements will definitely stir things up. Add to the mix some very "interested parties" trying to whip up more feelings of insecurity (they don't have to try very hard), the whole is a recipe for trouble - lots of it.

I understand the sentiment behind preserving cultural artefacts, but this one is real expensive. From Wikipedia:

The plan is to dredge the shallow ocean floor near the Dhanushkodi end of Rama's Bridge to create enough leeway allowing ships to pass through the channel instead of having to go around the island of Sri Lanka. It is expected to save nearly 30 hours' shipping time by cutting over 400 km off the voyage.

That sounds like a lot of fossil fuels being burned, assuming this is a somewhat busy shipping lane. Setting aside environmental damage (because of my ignorance of the issues there), this channel can really help. Can the Ram camp be happy with most of the bridge being in tact? Why can't we carve a 1m channel and leave the other 50miles for cultural heritage?

I love that in India (unlike in the US) politicians can make unabashedly anti-religion statements and still get elected, even though the population is quite religiously observent. God bless the indian atheists.

I also think it's great that this whole ancient-bridge-to-Srilanka-b.s. is hopefully finally being put to rest. Then again, I realize that it's impossible to reason a person out of something he wasn't reasoned into so I can expect to get more forwarded emails in the future about it.

nehru was an agnostic.

I don't think Nehru made it a point to stress his agnosticism before junta. Whereas Karunanidhi seems to be doing so cheerfully.

I am still surprised that a publicly atheist politician can make it in des.

#26 Manju
the CM needs to read Machiavelli. to paraphrase, while the prince should never be too religious--since excessive religious sentiment will prevent one from doing the cruel things necessary to stay in power--the prince should always appear to be religious, since then he will have the goodwill of the people, which is a prince's most powerful weapon.

--> I am sure MK will have a chuckle over that comment.

Not every state imbibes religion as an opiate. When it comes to political mobilisation, Tamilnadu imbibes language(and race) consciousness as its poison. MK doesnt need to appear as a language fanatic, he lives it. Hence, MK can afford to pass up on religion and use language(and race) consciousness as a means of holding onto power. When one opiate can replace another, you can always use the alternative.

Obviously, my speculation.

I'm just curious.... how many mutineers are honest-to-god (pun intended) religious believers in Ram/Krishna/Vishnu/Brahma/Laxmi/Sita and the whole panoply of Hindu gods and goddesses?

I know you wanted to hear from Hindus specifically, but I'll chime in unnecessarily; I have always believed in God. I've had phases when I was torn about organized religion, but I've always believed.

::

When I was young, I watched the Mahabharata serial with my dad-- twice. I loved it so much, my mom asked (half-joking, half-irritated) if I believed "it", as in, did I believe that Draupadi, Krishna et al existed. I blurted out yes, to everyone's surprise, including my own. :) Then we watched Ramayana and I was so outraged by what Sita went through, my mom seized the opportunity to ask if I believed IT happened. I said, "no", at which point she brought up my belief in the other epic and told me that if I was going to be a Hindu, I couldn't half-ass it. :)

I am still surprised that a publicly atheist politician can make it in des.

The whole Dravida-DK-DMK movement was anti-religion. And then there are the commies also.

I love that in India (unlike in the US) politicians can make unabashedly anti-religion statements and still get elected, even though the population is quite religiously observent. God bless the indian atheists.

Is this true all over India, or is TN an anomaly. Any examples/stats?

@Shoan 27 "So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That's some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar."

Maybe he wants to say that the fictional novel ramayana, written by the best selling author valmiki had a protagonist named rama who was fond of soma ras. Thats an old edition , heres the new one.

I agree with Razib. That is why I actually think people have the right to want to preserve something as memorable as that "bridge". Hell, I dont believe in the stuff, but I wouldn't mind it remaining there. I think it is a matter of just juggling priorities and degree of sentimental attachments.

But the protestors were out of line to go after Karunanidhi's family with violent reactions.

Yes, Ashvin is correct in #39--whole history of Periyar, DMK is rationalist, anti-religion, pro-development (here, canal-building). Not all ppl. in Desh are superstitious.

#27 Shodan
So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That's some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar.

--> “Even Valmiki has said that Ram was a drunkard. I urge Advani to get into a debate with me after reading Valmiki’s Ramayana,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]

MK was just pointing out to Ram's character in Valmiki Ramayana as Valmiki said it.

To me, it is fascinating how MK has used this controversy. This just gives him a way to differentiate himself from JJ. After all, JJ wouldnt even think of making such a comment. As 'honorary' inheritors of periyar's legacy, this should allow MK to claim he(aka DMK) is more rationalist than JJ(aka ADMK).

Is this true all over India, or is TN an anomaly. Any examples/stats?

the communist parties of west bengal and kerala have produced many atheist CMs.

Isn\'t it heartening to know that the ranks of the \"Brights\"=Atheists are swelling.
Way to go Karunanidhi!!
The ridiculous monstrosity of religion should be ridiculed into \"oblivion\"

http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=George_Fernandes (left catholicism, was a minister in the indian gov.)

Pravin@11: Yabadaba, it is what it is. If it doesn't interest us, we will not blog about it.

Hmmm ... I should remember that. SM is not about the community, it is about the 'us' who run SM.

Pravin@11: Immigration minutia is not an issue for a lot of us.

I doubt if female foeticide is an issue for a lot of us, and yet it was discussed here.

What an arrogant putdown of a perfectly reasonable request from yabadaba. At least Anna came back with a more reasonable response.

Damn Lemurians who do not understand our privileged Indo-Europo-Scythian heritage! We make bridges over straits 10000000 years before the Channel Tunnel was constructed by aping decadent vesterners who were still in trees. Do not make mockery of Aryasabhyata!!! We make bridges and you vant to destroy it to remove tangible traces of our glorious ancient civilization! Before the Great Wall of the chinese was visible from the Moon by space-racing West, our ancient sages meditating in trans-galactic constellations saw the Bridge across the Seas connecting Bharata to Lanka!

Karunanidhi can really be characterized as an atheist. He is mainly known for (a) stopping brahmin domination and (b) challenging North Indian politicians on Hindi in the days when parties did not need to form coalitions to form a government in the Center. Atheism, criticism of Sanskrit, criticism of Ramayana etc. were corollaries of (a) and (b). This is why he criticized Hinduism mainly. To avoid charges of hate speech, he would make a token criticism of other religions---just about enough so that no one could prove in a court of law that his speech could cause communal disturbance.

Things are different now. Tamil brahmins are no longer dominant and North Indian politicians need South Indian politicians to form coalition governments. Therefore (a) and (b) are things of the past. Karunanidhi has changed. He has shared a stage with Sai Baba. He always wears a yellow shawl---word is that the yellow shawl is for guru palan (good luck from Jupiter). He makes very few negative comments on Hinduism. His party's magazine covers astrology prominently.

The point is that atheism was an instrument by which Karunanidhi achieved certain objectives. Once those objectives were achieved, atheism became less important.

Pravin@11: Yabadaba, it is what it is. If it doesn't interest us, we will not blog about it.

Hmmm ... I should remember that. SM is not about the community, it is about the 'us' who run SM.

Ouch, that hurts. SM is about the community because SM is a community, one I'm truly proud of. I love this strange little online space and that's why I devote myself to it.

"Coverage" is not so cut and dry (much like the topic of this post!)-- yes, we each write about what interests us, but even then, we can't write about EVERYTHING which interests us because we have day jobs, etc. So, usually, the factor which decides whether a story gets posted is time-- the lack of it. 99% of you are very compassionate about this and we are grateful for it.

Now back on topic!

Isn\'t it heartening to know that the ranks of the \"Brights\"=Atheists are swelling.
Way to go Karunanidhi!!
The ridiculous monstrosity of religion should be ridiculed into \"oblivion\"

the likelihood of religion disappearing due to oblivion is as high as the second coming of christ. though i agree that someone needs to be in the ridicule business!

What an arrogant putdown of a perfectly reasonable request from yabadaba. At least Anna came back with a more reasonable response.

well, perhaps SM needs an open thread or something. i don't read some comment threads because the topics don't interest me. i read others because they do interest me. the immigration march or whatever doesn't interest me, and if they posted 10X a day on it i wouldn't read any of those posts. perhaps SM should have and open thread where people can make the case en masse for particular posts without dropping into other discussions which are humming along. also, perhaps we could open up a third column which is titled "very serious posts about very serious issues which the community must read about & discuss" so that those of us not interested could leave closed.

bloom & strauss weren't neocons. just because jesus christ influences social conservatives doesn't mean that he's a social conservative (read the NT for example!).

well, neocon's a vague term with different meanings, but Strauss and bloom are often cited as its philosophical forebearers. their political philosophy is also so nebulous that it covers a lot of ideological ground, as opposed to say libertarianism.

Leo Strauss, father of neoconservatism,

well, perhaps SM needs an open thread or something.

OY. I already spend all day moderating! ;) No open! No openings! NOOoooo!

Hmmm ... I should remember that. SM is not about the community, it is about the 'us' who run SM.

I was sloppy with my wording. I do not speak for the SM admins. I am a reader like you. I meant diaries and comments in talking about it.

Anna, nice post, with content and links providing a lot of background. Unfortunately, I haven't followed the issue in sufficient detail to say exactly how the opposition to the Sethusamudram project around the Rama (hi)story got built up. But it is clear to me, that both sides are playing politics in the name of religious (or atheistic) sentiments - the Advanis and the Karunanidhis both.

Karunanidhi's recent statements are gratuitously insulting and literally incendiary - extremely dangerous in places like Bangalore, where there is a history of anti-Tamil riots over other issues (Cauvery water sharing) and economic resentment over the success of local Tamil residents as well. I hope nothing much comes of it, and the IT companies, if nobody else, pressure the local administration into keeping the peace.

Karunanidhi's state and ultimately his government and party will benefit from both the investment in the construction of the canal and from the higher trade and maritime traffic that would result - so he's looking at that.

I agree that (i) if there were no serious adverse environmental impact and (ii) the saving in shipping time is truly significant - the project could go ahead, and the religious objections mollified in some way. But the saving in shipping time is nothing even remotely comparable to that which justified the Suez and Panama canals. This is why the whole thing should be looked at more carefully, and I'm not sure that has happened.

I read in a link that Kush posted on the newstab some days ago - that the Adam's Bridge might have prevented the December 2004 Tsunami waves reaching Kerala, and southernmost Tamil Nadu. (The waves and waters, on the other hand, damaged Sri Lankan coasts on both sides, and also went all the way into Mauritius, Madagascar, even Somalia, Tanzania on Africa's east coast. Not as much as in Asia, but still much more than Kerala - where it was almost nothing. Since the earthquake zones in the East Bay of Bengal littoral will be active in the future, the enhanced tsunami risk should be properly considered in the decisionmaking for the project.

Now this is a serious issue in itself, one that I hope will be discussed in more detail here and in the MSM and in India. However, it is even more serious than just that, because, at the very southernmost tip of the peninsula, near Kanyakumari, India is currently building its largest nuclear plant, Koodankulam, with Russian help. This plant will have a capacity of 2 GW by Dec 2008, and that will be about 40% of the installed nuclear capacity in India as of then. It is proposed that another 2.5 GW will be added soon after, so that the location will then be the largest nuclear power plant in the world. The safety of that facility, especially since it is on the sea, and close to the Equator, and directly in the path of a tsunami from the Bay of Bengal, must explicitly be considered. I hope they have done that, though I rather fear they might not have. The Kalpakkam Nuclear Power Plant near Chennai on the East coast did suffer damage during the tsunami, and so did the fast breeder reactor also located there. So the concern is not merely academic. If the Sethusamudram project increases the vulnerability of Koodankulam, that must be properly considered.

So while the issue is being framed as one of 'religious obscurantism' - there are a whole bunch of economic, environmental, climatological, geomorphological, and even geopolitical issues just under the surface. For example, it has been suggested that if substantial shipping traffic began to go through the Sethusamudram canal, it would give India a strategic advantage in the 21st century! These things must be carefully considered, and a full airing of the issues should occur before the narrative of 'atheist insults Hindus' takes over.

Razib -- the news tab functions as an open thread. Allowing comments on the news tab is an option, but given the nature of the SM Community (50% ass**les, 50% whiners, and me) someone would have to monitor the threads.

A better idea is a guest blogger who is interested in DBD issues. But ultmately, SM community members (that is, the commentors) have to be interested in a topic for a comment thread to work (the same problem arises with Muslim and/or Pakistan issues). You may be representative, and maybe SMers are not interested in immigration. One blog cannot be all thigns to all Desis.

well, neocon's a vague term with different meanings, but Strauss and bloom are often cited as its philosophical forebearers. their political philosophy is also so nebulous that it covers a lot of ideological ground, as opposed to say libertarianism.

yes, it is a vague term. and strass and bloom were influences, but so was plato. but instead of allowing vague terms to become more expansive, if you are a neocon it seems like you should be careful about including in people who don't really "fit." my own perception of neoconservatism is from irving kristol's book reflections of a neoconservative, though that's a bit dated.

Pravin - "Curisor, Trust me. I got a lot to say about that stuff too. But people like Anna on this site have done a great job understanding other religions more than many Hindu Indian Americans. So I am not going to start bashing all the beliefs of these religions I find amusing if they are not related to the diary entry at hand. If someone puts up an entry on evolution debate in US schools, people like me won't hold back on the stupidity of Christian fundies or in the case of Sania Mirza's dress, how the Islamic fundies needed to get a life."

In comment # 4 you did not challenge only the Hindu fundamentalists, you challenged the very authenticity of the Ramayana, which for most Hindus is as holy as the Bible for the Christians or Quran for the Muslims.

Wow, 50+ comments in just over an hour - seems to be a fairly hot button topic. Wonder why! :D

SkepMod said it well early on:

I wish there was more coverage of the ecological and economic effects of this shipping channel. Instead, this stupid debate about gods, myths takes center-stage.

I totally agree with this from the lower reaches of my left ventricle. As a Tam person with an engineering background from Madras, I am totally *disgusted* that an engineering project off the TN coast is being "evaluated" (both positively and negatively) by nutjobs on the basis of religion. It is tough for me to find humor in this mess (and that's saying a lot given that I usually like to make jokes about everything).

What I find particularly irksome is that (within TN) there is a fight brewing along the following lines:

1. Tamil vs non-Tamil (sometimes extrapolated to Dravidian vs Aryan)
2. Hindu vs anti-Hindu ("Rama was so divine that he built the bridge by magic" vs "There was no Rama and he was also a drunk guy who did not get a degree in Civil Engineering").
3. Tamil Hindus who identify more with Tamil vs Tamil Hindus who identify more with Hindu.

What I would particularly like to know is:

1. What is the relative benefit to shipping? Does it make a difference if it is local shipping (Thoothukudi to Ennore) or international shipping (Bahrain to Chennai)? How much time & fuel do ships really save? If they save a few hours in the transport time, does it translate to a real saving or are they just going to wait off the port entrances for those hours because the ports cannot handle the increased capacity?
2. What is the environmental impact in the Gulf of Mannar? Will it affect the local fish population? If so, do fisherfolk have a fall-back plan?
3. Ramifications for Sri Lanka - would it help the Sri Lankan economy? If it does, where - Jaffna or Colombo? How is the demographic going to skew? Is Sri Lanka a cost-sharing partner? Is the canal being designed for both Sri Lankan and Indian shipping traffic levels?

you challenged the very authenticity of the Ramayana, which for most Hindus is as holy as the Bible for the Christians or Quran for the Muslims

do people agree with this? i've read a fair amount of hindutva material recently and it seems that a better analog to the bible or koran are the vedas.

When I was young, I watched the Mahabharata serial...Then we watched Ramayana

oh snap. i've been hearing from more and more from people who watched those serials. i couldn't sit through the whole thing again. but, man, i was crazy addicted to those shows. remember dhuryodhan and bhim fight in the end. yeah that was dope.

Ikram - "I really doubt Mr. Abbas Naqvi thinks Ram was real. So what's the state of his mental bank account?'

Are you doubting his sincerity because he is Muslim?

Razib

The ridicule business has started and no wonder from the scientific elite, who finally and just in the nick of time have decided that there is a real danger of faith pushing the human species back into the Dark Ages.
Check this out.
http://beyondbelief2006.org/

Many of you would want to be a part of this movement.I know there are a lot of closeted \"Brights\"
who would normally shy away from ridiculing irrationality, straining to speak out.

In comment # 4 you did not challenge only the Hindu fundamentalists, you challenged the very authenticity of the Ramayana, which for most Hindus is as holy as the Bible for the Christians or Quran for the Muslims

And I do not believe in Christ as a real son of God and i do not believe Muhammad actually heard the voice of God. I made comments about Islam with friends when talking about the South Park controversy over the depiction of Muhammad. And when people tell me I am not saved, I do give them my sarcastic take on Christ and Mary. Besides my comments were in reaction to people already threatening Karunanidhi for his speech. I would not go unsolicited and tell someone they are an idiot for believing in Rama building that bridge or even if he was real or not.

yes, it is a vague term. and strass and bloom were influences, but so was plato.

strauss and bloom are more than influences like plato, they are considered to be the founding fathers of this nebulous political philosophy. and if you read them (i've never read strauss but am more than familiar with bloom) you see how they are all about subtly and nuance, to the point that people have no idea what they are talking about or what they stand for even after reading them, as opposed to say rand.

in general, neocons seems conservative but are really liberal at heart. thus social conservatives read blooms "closing of the american mind" while being oblivious to his athiesm (or homosexuality). this work, one of my favorites, is seemingly conservative in its attack on multiculturalism but is very liberal at heart,(thus the title, which bemoans a rising closed-mindedness on campus).

so the nature of neoconservatism is that it will always be somewhat undefinable. it embraces apparent contradictions, the anti-communist liberals, colonialists who spread democracy, athiests who cite the bible (like bloom), idealists who are instructed by machiavelli.

Thank you anna,

Thank you so much. I was gonna ask you to post bout this as blogs everywhere have been screaming bout the identity crisis 'Lord Rama' is facing. This is my current fav topic and I've been doing so much research bout it , I hope it meanders into a mega thread.....

do people agree with this? i've read a fair amount of hindutva material recently and it seems that a better analog to the bible or koran are the vedas.

In North India, particularly the Hindi belt, the Tulsidas Ramayana enjoys very high ritual status, so I can see some people making the claim that it has the status of the Koran does to Muslims. Some scholars believe that the Tulsi Ramayana was the Hindu answer to "the people of the Book."

While the Vedas are regarded nominally as the "highest," keep in mind that the recitations were restricted for the most part to Brahmans, though ideas from the Vedas certainly percolated through the Puranas, which were transmitted orally, from village to village in festivals.

The Kamban Ramayana is the Tamil Ramayana. Its widely regarded as the greatest literary work ever written in Tamil. It was written by a non-Brahmin. However, it doesn't have the same status that the Tulsi Ramayana does in North India. The Tamil Vasihnavas have their own "fifth Veda" comprised of hymns from 12 Vaishnava Saints known as Alwars.

Bottom line; There is no one book for Hindus.

chachaji@57: I heart your analysis!

Serious non-rhetorical question: can a shipping canal change the topography of the sea floor so much that it can affect tsunami propagation characteristics?

Also, I have read two (conflicting) accounts in the media of the planned implementation of the canal: one involves the large-scale dredging of Adam's Bridge to make the sea floor deeper throughout, and the other involves making a cut (literally dredging out a channel) through Adam's Bridge. Does anyone know which is correct here?

The ridicule business has started and no wonder from the scientific elite, who finally and just in the nick of time have decided that there is a real danger of faith pushing the human species back into the Dark Ages.
Check this out.
http://beyondbelief2006.org/

brother, no need to preach.

a) i've watched EVERY one of the beyond belief segments already
b) i was involved in the atheist movement in college
c) so trust me, faith that the promised age is coming will be in vain

and if you read them (i've never read strauss but am more than familiar with bloom) you see how they are all about subtly and nuance, to the point that people have no idea what they are talking about or what they stand for even after reading them, as opposed to say rand.

straussian ideas of "reading" sound really PoMo to me.

in general, neocons seems conservative but are really liberal at heart.

the premises of neoconservatism are fundamentally liberal. i wrote for the american conservative, so i know plenty of people who would call neocons liberals ;-)

"mutazili views still exist in shiism." .. Interesting read. But still, a statement like that by Karuna would be viewed as blasphemy by contemporary islam in majority, whereas athiests are not considered extremely dangerous in hinduism, otherwise the leftist & south indian self proclaimed atheist power centers wouldn't have been there.

Theres an international angle to this as well, apparently the americans want to make these international waters ala suez canal.Though we only have the vhp account of things on that, I didnt get any more info.

BTW this project is done with. No one wants to give the communal parties the fodder they need to come out of the doldrums - it's not happening. Any believe the insertion of the ASI material was sabotage? Who would be foolish enough to put that in there, considering the fact that anger about Ram is what catapulted the BJP parties to power in the first place? Then again...

Interesting read. But still, a statement like that by Karuna would be viewed as blasphemy by contemporary islam in majority, whereas athiests are not considered extremely dangerous in hinduism, otherwise the leftist & south indian self proclaimed atheist power centers wouldn't have been there.

in Alternative Tradition: A Study of Unbelief in the Ancient World the author claims that the 'blasphemy' of groups like the carvaka in india did not have to do with their atheism since that is an acceptable position within the hindu tradition. rather, it was their rejection of karma and absolute materialism (and rejection of metaphysics as a whole).

Quoting risible:

Any believe the insertion of the ASI material was sabotage? Who would be foolish enough to put that in there, considering the fact that anger about Ram is what catapulted the BJP parties to power in the first place?

Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity! :D

When I was young, I watched the Mahabharata serial...Then we watched Ramayana

I coudl never get into the Hindi versions. I preferred the South Indian portrayals of Hindu gods, especially NT RamaRao's. Mayabazaar is a must see for those into this kind of stuff. For me the difference between South Indian and North Indian versions is like the difference between black churches and white churches in terms of the fun aspect. I am just saying this based on my own experience, not as an absolute truth or anything.

While the Vedas are regarded nominally as the "highest," keep in mind that the recitations were restricted for the most part to Brahmans, though ideas from the Vedas certainly percolated through the Puranas, which were transmitted orally, from village to village in festivals.

Bottom line; There is no one book for Hindus.

The ramayana, mahabharata and Bhagavad Gita have been translated, abridged and thus more market friendly. The tulsidas ramayan is one classic example of taking the scriptures to the masses. The ramayana and mahabharata have the advantage of being story-based and hence the masses find them engaging and easy to grasp. The finer plots are laced with pearls of wisdom on daily life, administration, dharma etc.

The 400 questions that Bharata asked Rama before the latter left for vanavas, helped him govern the kingdom and are now to be added to school cirriculum. Same holds for the bhagavad gita and the mahabharat, but the vedas are chants which are firstly impossible to translate and then they aren't enticing to keep the reader engrossed.

However you make a valid point of not having a book, there seems to be some action in that direction as well, see link

Quoting Shodan:

So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That's some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar.

ROFL! I tell you, everything came from India! Even the Invisible Pink Unicorn came from India!

the other involves making a cut (literally dredging out a channel) through Adam's Bridge. Does anyone know which is correct here?

The project involves dredging out a channel through adams bridge. The fun part is that dredging has already begun and the strong sediment layer has damaged two dredgers. The TN govt plans to import one now.

Call it divine intervention, or mother nature's wrath. This has bought the other parties, time to fire their salvos.

The project involves dredging out a channel through adams bridge. The fun part is that dredging has already begun and the strong sediment layer has damaged two dredgers. The TN govt plans to import one now.

Why not high explosive demolition charges like the ones used in quarrying rock? This is just underwater rock right? Given the shallowness, I don't see a major problem in placing the charges. Not a technical problem anyway.

"atheism is an acceptable position within the hindu tradition."
exactly ! & that is not the case with any other 'way of life'.

Ok, leave alone Karuna, how did the ASI officials managed to put in a reference to Ramas non existence,
into the report that could have been simply that it is a natural formation ! Is this a way of congress reminding
leftists that if elections are held now, there is a chance for the 'communal' forces to come into power ?
a li'l conspiracy theorish perhaps ?

pingpong:

Totally agree with you. However, there is a side benefit to this controversy. I dont personally like Karunanidhi. I agree with freedom of speech etc and dont mind what he says about Rama, but if this ends with the fall of Karunanithi's upcoming evil dynasty, then I'm all for it. People shouldn't mistake Karunanidhi's actions as bravery. He sits in his throne and shoots his mouth off when he should shut up but remains silent at countless other injustices.

Anna:

Most hindus are half-assed. That pisses off the hindu fanatics more than muslims or christians. There are too many contradictions within hinduism for someone to be a true believer without being a nutter. I'm proud to be half-assed-hindu(Today's WORD).

Is it true what Karunanidhi says? Does the Ramayana refer to Ram as being a drunk? Does anyone know?

If he's right, then why blast the guy for pointing it out, if he's wrong then someone should slap him with the truth! I haven't seen any comments or articles (may have missed them) yet that answer this question.

exactly ! & that is not the case with any other 'way of life'.

that's false. reconstructionist jews are generally not theistic. additionally, confucianism has a long streak of anti-supernaturalism which dates back to xunzi (i'm excluding jainism & buddhism since they are indian derived traditions). of course, i'm sure there are non-supernaturalist confucians who would make the case for the the uniqueness of their tradition without knowing that hinduism has its own cognates, people are mostly familiar with what is culturally near. so just a warning to be careful about generalization (i accept that generalization is necessary and essential in communication!).

Why not high explosive demolition charges like the ones used in quarrying rock? This is just underwater rock right? Given the shallowness, I don't see a major problem in placing the charges. Not a technical problem anyway.

India and Srilanka share the adams bridge as their territorial cross. Now India has to dig out a channel and then dump all that sediment in Indian territorial waters only. The dredging will kill the coral reef and the rare species found there, the dumping will ruin the fishing and 700 families will be stripped of their livelihood....

There are too many contradictions within hinduism for someone to be a true believer without being a nutter

how many contradictions are necessary before someone has to be half-assed to be intellectual honest? because of the range of hindu beliefs i can accept that hinduism has more contradiction than christianity. but quantitatively does it matter that there are 1,000 vs. 500 contradictions? 10,000 vs. 100 contradictions? a cursory reading of christian scripture and theology manifests plenty of contradiction (which is why the church fathers were generally not biblical literalists, they accepted the likelihood of allegory and metaphor so as to preserve inerrancy). i think that the difference isn't the number of contradictions, but the acceptance that contradiction and disagreement is normal. in contrast, many christians and muslims contend that difference is unacceptable because there is One True Way, so despite the contradiction and wide differences of opinion within the religion many of the various camps do not accept that the others as as christian or muslim. some hindus are like this as well, but it seems quantitatively less prominent within the religion.

that's false. reconstructionist jews are generally not theistic. additionally, confucianism has a long streak of anti-supernaturalism which dates back to xunzi (i'm excluding jainism & buddhism since they are indian derived traditions). of course, i'm sure there are non-supernaturalist confucians who would make the case for the the uniqueness of their tradition without knowing that hinduism has its own cognates, people are mostly familiar with what is culturally near. so just a warning to be careful about generalization (i accept that generalization is necessary and essential in communication!).

Since you are an open carvaka, I suggest you formally declare allegiance to hinduism, since it was the way of your ancestors...Bangladesh is a very recent construction :-) BTW what would you do if your child wanted to become a Muslim? Would you be okay with that?

The dredging will kill the coral reef and the rare species found there, the dumping will ruin the fishing and 700 families will be stripped of their livelihood....

Thank you for answering one of my questions in #60. If the canal project does go through, is there some way of not damaging the coral reef? For instance, if a ship passing through the channel washes its tanks and dumps the effluent at sea, can the current carry the effluent away from the coral reef? (Just asking - a channel project won't automatically wipe out all marine life, but the risk must be carefully analyzed before deciding whether to go ahead or not).

Since you are an open carvaka, I suggest you formally declare allegiance to hinduism, since it was the way of your ancestors...Bangladesh is a very recent construction :-)

i have no great issues with hindus "claiming" me if they choose so long as they leave me and my beef burger in peace.

BTW what would you do if your child wanted to become a Muslim? Would you be okay with that?

the short answer is no, I WOULD NOT BE OK (and neither would my fiance). the main issue general is not religion, but supernaturalism, btw (though i find islam to be the most abhorrent of religions). luckily myself and my fiance are both rather "dead to the voice of god," so the likelihood that our offspring would be like us is high (i've looked a bit into the behavior genetics of this).

since it was the way of your ancestors

btw, my paternal grandmother was born a hindu (though her family converted when she was 1 or 2 years old). so they aren't just distant ancestors.

i wouldn't bother analyzing anything karunanidhi says. this guy names his son stalin, for rama's sake.

is there some way of not damaging the coral reef? For instance, if a ship passing through the channel washes its tanks and dumps the effluent at sea, can the current carry the effluent away from the coral reef?

The waters are very shallow and only 10mts deep. Dredging will disturb the balance, increasing temperature, stronger currents will enter the region and this increase in water levels will submerge parts of both india and SL....
Below is what I could find online....

Though there has been a demand from various quarters for the implementation of the project, there is also opposition to it from environmentalists. They point out that the dredging of the Palk Strait and the Gulf of Mannar, by modifying habitats, could affect the ecology of the zone by changing currents. This could:

* cause changes in temperature, salinity, turbidity and flow of nutrients
* cause oilspills from ship and other marine pollution to reach the coastal areas and specifically the sensitive ecosystems of the Gulf of Mannar
* lead to higher tides and to more energetic waves, and hence to coastal erosion.
* affect the local sea temperature and thereby alter the pattern of sea-breezes and hence affect rainfall patterns.

They also point out that dredging the canal would stir up sediment the dust and toxins that lie beneath the sea bed, smothering corals and affecting marine life. The emptying of bilge water from ships travelling through the hitherto impassable areas could diperse invasive species through the ecosystems of the area.

These effects could endanger precious marine species and wealth. The Gulf of Mannar has 3,600 species of plants and animals and is India's biologically richest coastal region. Mammal species which abound in the area are sperm whales, dolphins and dugongs. The Gulf of Mannar is especially known for its corals: the portion in Indian territorial waters has 117 species of corals, belonging to 37 genera. Associated with these ecosystems are many varieties of fish and crustaceans. Marine life on the Sri Lankan side, which is better protected, is even richer. The Bar Reef off the Kalpitiya peninsular alone has 156 species of coral and 283 of fish; there are two other coral reef systems around Mannar and Jaffna. There are extensive banks of oysters, as well as Indian Chank and Sea Cucumbers, especially in the seas adjacent to Mannar. The pearl fisheries south of Mannar, which inspired Georges Bizet's opera Les Pêcheurs de Perles, have not been productive for many years, indicating the fragility of these ecosystems in the face of overfishing and of relatively minor changes in the habitat.

Despite these concerns, official environmental clearance has been given for the project. The contention that the Sethusamudram Canal will cut through coral reefs and disturb the ecology has been dismissed as a mistaken fear.

The Indian government has conducted various environmental studies which has concluded that such issues are overblown and not based on science. However, skeptics have noted that environmentalist objections remain, including:

* the Environmental Impact Assessment carried out by the Indian government was done by a body inexperienced in projects of this nature, was insufficiently detailed and did not consult with all the stakeholders, which included the government and people on the southern side of the proposed project,
* no proper survey has been carried out of the sea bed to be dredged, and
* no proper scientific modelling of the effects of the project has been carried out.

i have no great issues with hindus "claiming" me if they choose so long as they leave me and my beef burger in peace

Is it just my relatives and family friends, or do more recent immigrant families of Indian Hindus seem more reluctant to eat beef compared to those of us whose parents came here in the 60s or 70s. Whenver I have BBQs , I notice this.

People who follow DMK , will not be surprised by his remarks but personally hearing such things about lord Rama hurts me.

The tamil rationalist leader EV Ramasami Naicker also known as Periyar is the father of the atheist rationalist movement called the Dravidian movement. This forms the guiding ideology of the DMK and to a lesser extent the AIADMK (the AIADMK is not atheist). He had his positives, but he also broke several idols and garlanded statues of Ram with slippers. MK comes from this school, so I guess calling Ram a drunkard ( in comparison garlanding Ram statues with slippers ) doesn't shock me , but ( as stated earlier) hurts me.

On a side note , if you want a filmy version of how DMK was born and split , you have to check out the tamizh movie IRUVAR by Mani Ratnam. Of course , you will get a celebrated , glamorized and non controversial version of what really happened in the state , but movie has it own merits apart from Rahman and being TMBWITW first movie ! Aish plays Jayalaitha , Mohan Lal MGR and Prakash Raj - MK.

This is MK in the movie !