wow 1st commenter. i don't know the history of his party but would he hesitate to insult siva, ganesh etc since most Tamils I think are Shaivites?

The Chief Minister of Lemuria, Karunanidhi,

Ouch! A bit harsh, ain't it?

I wish there was more coverage of the ecological and economic effects of this shipping channel. Instead, this stupid debate about gods, myths takes center-stage.

Ouch! A bit harsh, ain't it?

Oh...I didn't mean it to be. I consider myself a Lemurian. :) Not that I agree with ye ole fight-pickin' CM here...

Great, now we got the Hindu fundamentalists speaking out more in India. Before my pet peeve was caste. Now we got a bunch of oversensitive people who get offended by every single thing. What is wrong with what Karunanidhi said? They seriously think Rama is a real guy who built an actual bridge to Sri Lanka? Did he get Hanuman to put boulders in the water? Where did they get that from - their Amar Chitra comics?

If they object to the destruction of the area for other reasons(there was some article about the change in currents), then I have no problem. They need to let the guy express his opinion and shut up about their own ignorance.

i don't know the history of his party but would he hesitate to insult siva, ganesh etc since most Tamils I think are Shaivites?

He is an atheist and I am sure given the opportunity (if he has not already said so) he will put down any god.

Here are the religious demographics, without any stats, I think there is an equal split among shaivites and vaishnavites. In fact I think a large segment of tamils worship both sides, so I doubt that it is playing a role in his comments.

i dont know if he is gettin an under-desk bribe over this contract to build the canal or he is from the opposing party but this is just ridiculous coming from a CM. Didnt NASA say something about this too? some satellite pictures of the region?

A lot of Tamilians worship Lord Venkateshwara in Tirupati. Wouldn't that be a vaishnavite thing since he is a manifestation of Vishnu(i never understood why he is not considered one of the Dasavatarams).

I wish there was more coverage of the ecological and economic effects of this shipping channel. Instead, this stupid debate about gods, myths takes center-stage.

What was ironic was that the ship (or whatever it is called) to start digging the canal sunk, they got a crane to rescue the ship that sunk and they had to get a bigger crane to rescue both. The bigger crane was called Hanuman. No seriously, I will post the link as soon as I find it.

I dont get it. 90% of sepia's posts are focussed on India and dbds living in desh. But when the dbds out here request some coverage of issues faced in the US (Immigration Voice's rally efforts) it falls on deaf ears. Even the success of this historical rally is not mentioned. Forget any of the DC meetup atteendees just showing up during lunch to provide support.

Of course the reason might just be shallow to the point of "Oh these DBD's immigration issues - how boring - yawn"

Here is the news article that says Hanuman was sent to rescue.

Yabadaba, it is what it is. If it doesn't interest us, we will not blog about it. There is no strict guideline to give equal time to every issue. So what if a lot of DBD related stuff gets coverage. Maybe its a way for ABDs to learn more about india. Immigration minutia is not an issue for a lot of us. We did talk about Canada trying to limit names such as Singh in the past because it relates to personal identity and cultural origin.

Pravin - I agree with your comment, "They seriously think Rama is a real guy who built an actual bridge to Sri Lanka? Did he get Hanuman to put boulders in the water? Where did they get that from - their Amar Chitra comics?"

But what yanks my chain is when people are afraid to assign similar analysis to the "miracles" performed by the Jesus Christs and Muhammads of yore. Do you really believe that Jesus came back from the nether side or, Muhammad rode to heaven on a mare?

I do want to add that despite my contempt for the protestors, I would like to see them preserve the existing "bridge" for the sake of cultural importance kind of like how we preserve landmark structures. If enough people feel attached to it, why not.

for the sake of cultural importance kind of like how we preserve landmark structures. If enough people feel attached to it, why not.

Well besides cultural significance, there is apparently a very minor financial incentive, so small that a government will normally drop such projects.

I respect peoples beliefs, but this project has more holes than a jalebi.

I thought we covered the Gandhigiri-esque protest via flower delivery to USCIS? I'm trying to find the link, YabaDaba.

If we don't cover topic X, that's not necessarily a statement of our feelings re: its importance...it's almost always more about time.

It is well documented that Karuna has issues only with Hindus, Hindu Gods, Temples and beliefs and always feels compelled to put down people who practice it. He never spews the same kind of vitriol against other religious groups and entities, nor does he have any issues having an alliance with BJP when the opportunity is right.

welcome to the world of fundies; i believe that everyone should be allowed to make merciless fun of deities of all religions. but i prefer such mockery to be reserved only for people who use religious argumentation first to enforce their preferences on those who disagree (in other words i prefer not to use mockery gratuitously, only when the situation warrants it). so i cannot find fault with karunanidhi, given the situation. at the same time it seems that karuna is also tying to needle...maybe needlessly?

Yabadaba, I wrote about it this July, if that matters at all...

The most infuriating aspect of it all— people who are here illegally are now standing in the same virtual line for a limited and precious commodity. I can totally understand the pain; you do the right thing, follow the rules and then someone cuts in front of you— and you’re S.O.L. It happened when I tried to buy Pixies tickets a few years ago and that stung. I can’t imagine the anguish over this, which is 100x more important. [sm]

these sorts of issues get throw into a black & white dichotomy

1) if the CM is an atheist of course he doesn't believe that ram existed, and like many atheists he probably thinks that the imaginings of religious people are a bit silly and unproductive in the grand utilitarian scheme of things.

2) that being said, it is simply a fact of this universe that atheists are a minority, for the majority of our species gods do exist in terms how they model with the world. additionally, not only do these gods exist, but they are personalities, and people develop strong emotional attachments to them.

3) so an atheist calling out theists on these issues is going to result in some hurt. but it can go both ways, i know atheists (and various forms of theists) who are 'offended' that particular theists believe everyone not of their belief is going to hell. but in a utilitarian scheme who really cares about the beliefs of a group of people who after all believe things you believe are silly? well, it is the thought that counts sometimes, and you want them to see you as fully human beings, not just the 'unsaved' who are less than they because you don't believe in some fairy tale.

4) so in normal life there is a lot that is left unsaid. consider you hanging out with a friend who is ugly, very ugly. everyone in the room knows that your friend is ugly, including the friend. but if you comment, 'you know you're ugly!' well, that would hurt feelings. but why? nothing has changed about the facts that everyone agrees to in the room. well, now imagine that you don't agree no the facts! that makes it more complicated, doesn't it?

5) yes, from the perspective of the atheist religious people are kooks that waste a lot of time. there's really no ontological difference between massive temple complexes of the 'great religious' and a papuan fetishist cutting down the forest to construct huge cocks that they dance around to propitiate the fertility gods. that being said, say you're an atheist, and your mother just dies. she's gone. her self, her brain, is now no longer as soup of electrochemistry. she's just atoms. now, what your friend decides to step on her remains? what does that matter? they're just atoms, the remains of what was your mother. why would you care? the reality is that most atheists would care about the remains of the individual who was their loved one.

6) human psychology gives us particular biases and impulses, it confers on us a tendency to essential, animize, objects. there are all sorts of unconscious subprocesses out there which speak to why we do "irrational" things. it also speaks to the agreed up norms (axioms) which we use to judge what is, or isn't, rational. in short, humans are far more than the words they put on paper, or the short little punchy sentences they throw out in a debate. yes, i believe that nothing of sentience will be in the body of my loved one will be there if she dies, if her brain ceases to function. that being said, i'll kill anyone that suggests that i reprocess her tissue to make cat food for my pets. why? i'm not going to front, that's just how i feel about it. i honor her memory, and so i would honor her remains.

7) so from the perspective of an atheist i would say it isn't as simple as the silly beliefs of religious people that they need to get over. it's complicated, we're all embedded in a personal cloud of assumptions, biases and impulses we can't, and probably would object to, accounting for. for the religious person they need to understand that their love is not everyone else's love, that in fact, the object of their devotion is nothing but a delusion for many others (fundamentalist christians and muslims make this explicit in regards to "heathen" religion, your gods are demons and delusions, false idols). but though we may agree upon truths, humanity sometimes demands silence.

8) so we live in a gray world where compromise and give or take is reality. we're not islands, we're social beings who want to get along, we're creatures with fellow feeling. that means there isn't a rule book which separates the black from the white, the light from the dark, where the truth stands on one side and the false on the other. to my fellow atheists, we should never have shame about our beliefs, for truth, but being human does mean that we have to compromise with the universe as it is not belief ourselves gods who can create it anew in our image.

But what yanks my chain is when people are afraid to assign similar analysis to the "miracles" performed by the Jesus Christs and Muhammads of yore. Do you really believe that Jesus came back from the nether side or, Muhammad rode to heaven on a mare?

Its the DMK. They don't like God(s). It's also a bit of a north-south thing. I don't think the anti-Hinduism sentiment of Tamil Nadu (Periyar, etc) would make any sense to a Northerner.

In any case, unlike Ayodhya, which was a tragedy, this Ram-brouhaha is quickly turning into a farce. See this comment on Karuna:

BJP vice-president Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi said "such a statement could only be made by a person suffering from mental bankruptcy.

I really doubt Mr. Abbas Naqvi thinks Ram was real. So what's the state of his mental bank account?

I think both sides are coming from wrong point of views. It would be a lot saner world if the BJP came from the environmental concern view & Karuna was a little respectful to the belief of a large population & stressed of the economic front. Superstition it may be, but his statements fall on deaf ears of the mostly religious population.

@Curious #12 : Christianity can accept rational views & ignore them , but i don't think islam does. Only in hinduism or 'sanatan dharma' have they been debating this connect between physics & metaphysics truly for centuries.

No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?

--> I think he can rest assured knowing DMK cadres will burn enough buses(with or without people in them) if MK is attacked. As for his family, I am sure they have gotten used to nut case reactions. After all, they have initiated quite a few from their side too(Their family 'jewel', Azhagiri, did burn down a newspaper office 2 or 3 months back as retaliation for some articles in that newspaper) .

He likes to talk some smack, doesn’t he? Yowza.

--> Not a good idea to pick on someone who has talked smack about religion for a long time.

I know that several of you are outraged over this (and I sympathize completely…I may not be of the same faith, but I’m a person OF faith), so I hope we can all take a collective deep breath and discuss this. I know I’m not the only one who is interested in reading what some of you have to say.

--> I agree completely with what he said and am not at all outraged. Ram is a mythological character. And to use Ram Setu as the sole reason for scuttling the sethu samudram project is narrow minded ignorance, which, for religion in general, is not out of place.

What is next ? A boulder in India cannot be removed because Ram released Ahalya from it ? All squirrels are protected under Hindu religious endowments because Ram acknowledged their help in building that bridge ?

Sethusamudram project has other deficiencies. To focus on the religious aspect of it to the exclusion of others is stupidity.

An atheist managed to become the CM of an Indian state? Surely not.

I think both sides are coming from wrong point of views. It would be a lot saner world if the BJP came from the environmental concern view & Karuna was a little respectful to the belief of a large population & stressed of the economic front. Superstition it may be, but his statements fall on deaf ears of the mostly religious population.

from a religious point of view it is often more prudent to argue from a secular angle because it doesn't elicit summary dismissal. e.g., many christian social conservatives make utilitarian arguments to a general audience in the united states because they know that "the bible says so" isn't going to fly.

@Curious #12 : Christianity can accept rational views & ignore them , but i don't think islam does. Only in hinduism or 'sanatan dharma' have they been debating this connect between physics & metaphysics truly for centuries.

be careful about generalizing about a particular religion. to respond precisely, mutazili views still exist in shiism.

the CM needs to read Machiavelli. to paraphrase, while the prince should never be too religious--since excessive religious sentiment will prevent one from doing the cruel things necessary to stay in power--the prince should always appear to be religious, since then he will have the goodwill of the people, which is a prince's most powerful weapon.

anyone who know anything about neoconservatism knows we are atheists (straus, bloom, wolfowitz). but look how shrewdly bush got the support of the religious.

So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That's some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar.

ANNA:

You are right. Amardeep had posted about the gandhigiri protest. However, on Tuesday there was a rally at DC that has been called historical by some influential attorneys.

linky:
http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2007/09/iv-rally-being-.html
http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2007/09/immigrants-of-t.html

I guess here's the thing, when you guys at sepia talk about female foeticide and other social issues that are messed up in India, the feeling that we DBDs get is that you guys care about the Indian diaspora. Even though you are not Indian, like Pravin said, you guys are trying to learn about India through this medium and it shows that you care.

In a generation my ABD daughter will be where you are right now and as a parent it reaffirms my decision of raising my kid here.

But when issues like the rally or the fiasco that led to the Gandhigiri protest are ignored it feels like slight from sepia's part cos the anguish this immigration system has brought about is ridiculous.

I do believe that at one inappropriately hilarious moment during this fustercluck, Karunanidhi tried to make a point by asking where Ram went to engineering school? What the…? I mean, obviously he went to IIT. Just like Jesus went to Harvard.

No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?

Karunanidhi is precisely famous for this kind of talk. He is considered a very good and witty orator. Most of the people in TN knows he talks like this. And that is why dravidian parties win time and again. And only very religious people will be offended, which by the way are in a minority in TN. I would like to point out the outrage against his daughter was in Karnataka not TN.

(straus, bloom, wolfowitz)

bloom & strauss weren't neocons. just because jesus christ influences social conservatives doesn't mean that he's a social conservative (read the NT for example!).

An atheist managed to become the CM of an Indian state? Surely not.

nehru was an agnostic.

I'm just curious.... how many mutineers are honest-to-god (pun intended) religious believers in Ram/Krishna/Vishnu/Brahma/Laxmi/Sita and the whole panoply of Hindu gods and goddesses? I mean is there anyone who believes in the Ramayana or Bhagvata Gita as literal truth and prays to an altar of Ganesh everyday (like my mom)? Just to be clear, I'm not trying to mock anyone, I am simply curious. (And, to forestall any criticism, yes, I am aware that there are many people other than Hindus here, I am mainly curious about religious Hindus, although I would love to hear from any religiious faithful about their convictions).

This is all verrrry interesting. :) I'm learning a lot.

Also, who else hearts Shodan-san's comment? :D

Lurker here...now revealing myself.

Razib@#19: Good analysis !

I think one of the keys is the role symbols play in our lives. Even though a majority of people may not literally believe that Rama built the bridge with the help of an army of monkeys, it is still a powerful (and visible) symbol which is part of many peoples' upbringing. Any (perceived) attack on such symbols will cause a strong reaction. And we all know that during the Babri Masjid-Ram Janmabhoomi days, feelings of insecurity among Hindus was stirred up and exploited - Ram Janmabhoomi was another important symbol. The same thing is happening now.

Also it is well known that Karunanidhi is an anti-Aryan (translating, I guess to anti-Hindu). Someone like him making such harsh statements will definitely stir things up. Add to the mix some very "interested parties" trying to whip up more feelings of insecurity (they don't have to try very hard), the whole is a recipe for trouble - lots of it.

I understand the sentiment behind preserving cultural artefacts, but this one is real expensive. From Wikipedia:

The plan is to dredge the shallow ocean floor near the Dhanushkodi end of Rama's Bridge to create enough leeway allowing ships to pass through the channel instead of having to go around the island of Sri Lanka. It is expected to save nearly 30 hours' shipping time by cutting over 400 km off the voyage.

That sounds like a lot of fossil fuels being burned, assuming this is a somewhat busy shipping lane. Setting aside environmental damage (because of my ignorance of the issues there), this channel can really help. Can the Ram camp be happy with most of the bridge being in tact? Why can't we carve a 1m channel and leave the other 50miles for cultural heritage?

I love that in India (unlike in the US) politicians can make unabashedly anti-religion statements and still get elected, even though the population is quite religiously observent. God bless the indian atheists.

I also think it's great that this whole ancient-bridge-to-Srilanka-b.s. is hopefully finally being put to rest. Then again, I realize that it's impossible to reason a person out of something he wasn't reasoned into so I can expect to get more forwarded emails in the future about it.

nehru was an agnostic.

I don't think Nehru made it a point to stress his agnosticism before junta. Whereas Karunanidhi seems to be doing so cheerfully.

I am still surprised that a publicly atheist politician can make it in des.

#26 Manju
the CM needs to read Machiavelli. to paraphrase, while the prince should never be too religious--since excessive religious sentiment will prevent one from doing the cruel things necessary to stay in power--the prince should always appear to be religious, since then he will have the goodwill of the people, which is a prince's most powerful weapon.

--> I am sure MK will have a chuckle over that comment.

Not every state imbibes religion as an opiate. When it comes to political mobilisation, Tamilnadu imbibes language(and race) consciousness as its poison. MK doesnt need to appear as a language fanatic, he lives it. Hence, MK can afford to pass up on religion and use language(and race) consciousness as a means of holding onto power. When one opiate can replace another, you can always use the alternative.

Obviously, my speculation.

I'm just curious.... how many mutineers are honest-to-god (pun intended) religious believers in Ram/Krishna/Vishnu/Brahma/Laxmi/Sita and the whole panoply of Hindu gods and goddesses?

I know you wanted to hear from Hindus specifically, but I'll chime in unnecessarily; I have always believed in God. I've had phases when I was torn about organized religion, but I've always believed.

::

When I was young, I watched the Mahabharata serial with my dad-- twice. I loved it so much, my mom asked (half-joking, half-irritated) if I believed "it", as in, did I believe that Draupadi, Krishna et al existed. I blurted out yes, to everyone's surprise, including my own. :) Then we watched Ramayana and I was so outraged by what Sita went through, my mom seized the opportunity to ask if I believed IT happened. I said, "no", at which point she brought up my belief in the other epic and told me that if I was going to be a Hindu, I couldn't half-ass it. :)

I am still surprised that a publicly atheist politician can make it in des.

The whole Dravida-DK-DMK movement was anti-religion. And then there are the commies also.

I love that in India (unlike in the US) politicians can make unabashedly anti-religion statements and still get elected, even though the population is quite religiously observent. God bless the indian atheists.

Is this true all over India, or is TN an anomaly. Any examples/stats?

@Shoan 27 "So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That's some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar."

Maybe he wants to say that the fictional novel ramayana, written by the best selling author valmiki had a protagonist named rama who was fond of soma ras. Thats an old edition , heres the new one.

I agree with Razib. That is why I actually think people have the right to want to preserve something as memorable as that "bridge". Hell, I dont believe in the stuff, but I wouldn't mind it remaining there. I think it is a matter of just juggling priorities and degree of sentimental attachments.

But the protestors were out of line to go after Karunanidhi's family with violent reactions.

Yes, Ashvin is correct in #39--whole history of Periyar, DMK is rationalist, anti-religion, pro-development (here, canal-building). Not all ppl. in Desh are superstitious.

#27 Shodan
So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That's some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar.

--> “Even Valmiki has said that Ram was a drunkard. I urge Advani to get into a debate with me after reading Valmiki’s Ramayana,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]

MK was just pointing out to Ram's character in Valmiki Ramayana as Valmiki said it.

To me, it is fascinating how MK has used this controversy. This just gives him a way to differentiate himself from JJ. After all, JJ wouldnt even think of making such a comment. As 'honorary' inheritors of periyar's legacy, this should allow MK to claim he(aka DMK) is more rationalist than JJ(aka ADMK).

Is this true all over India, or is TN an anomaly. Any examples/stats?

the communist parties of west bengal and kerala have produced many atheist CMs.

Isn\'t it heartening to know that the ranks of the \"Brights\"=Atheists are swelling.
Way to go Karunanidhi!!
The ridiculous monstrosity of religion should be ridiculed into \"oblivion\"

http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=George_Fernandes (left catholicism, was a minister in the indian gov.)

Pravin@11: Yabadaba, it is what it is. If it doesn't interest us, we will not blog about it.

Hmmm ... I should remember that. SM is not about the community, it is about the 'us' who run SM.

Pravin@11: Immigration minutia is not an issue for a lot of us.

I doubt if female foeticide is an issue for a lot of us, and yet it was discussed here.

What an arrogant putdown of a perfectly reasonable request from yabadaba. At least Anna came back with a more reasonable response.

Damn Lemurians who do not understand our privileged Indo-Europo-Scythian heritage! We make bridges over straits 10000000 years before the Channel Tunnel was constructed by aping decadent vesterners who were still in trees. Do not make mockery of Aryasabhyata!!! We make bridges and you vant to destroy it to remove tangible traces of our glorious ancient civilization! Before the Great Wall of the chinese was visible from the Moon by space-racing West, our ancient sages meditating in trans-galactic constellations saw the Bridge across the Seas connecting Bharata to Lanka!

Karunanidhi can really be characterized as an atheist. He is mainly known for (a) stopping brahmin domination and (b) challenging North Indian politicians on Hindi in the days when parties did not need to form coalitions to form a government in the Center. Atheism, criticism of Sanskrit, criticism of Ramayana etc. were corollaries of (a) and (b). This is why he criticized Hinduism mainly. To avoid charges of hate speech, he would make a token criticism of other religions---just about enough so that no one could prove in a court of law that his speech could cause communal disturbance.

Things are different now. Tamil brahmins are no longer dominant and North Indian politicians need South Indian politicians to form coalition governments. Therefore (a) and (b) are things of the past. Karunanidhi has changed. He has shared a stage with Sai Baba. He always wears a yellow shawl---word is that the yellow shawl is for guru palan (good luck from Jupiter). He makes very few negative comments on Hinduism. His party's magazine covers astrology prominently.

The point is that atheism was an instrument by which Karunanidhi achieved certain objectives. Once those objectives were achieved, atheism became less important.

Pravin@11: Yabadaba, it is what it is. If it doesn't interest us, we will not blog about it.

Hmmm ... I should remember that. SM is not about the community, it is about the 'us' who run SM.

Ouch, that hurts. SM is about the community because SM is a community, one I'm truly proud of. I love this strange little online space and that's why I devote myself to it.

"Coverage" is not so cut and dry (much like the topic of this post!)-- yes, we each write about what interests us, but even then, we can't write about EVERYTHING which interests us because we have day jobs, etc. So, usually, the factor which decides whether a story gets posted is time-- the lack of it. 99% of you are very compassionate about this and we are grateful for it.

Now back on topic!

Isn\'t it heartening to know that the ranks of the \"Brights\"=Atheists are swelling.
Way to go Karunanidhi!!
The ridiculous monstrosity of religion should be ridiculed into \"oblivion\"

the likelihood of religion disappearing due to oblivion is as high as the second coming of christ. though i agree that someone needs to be in the ridicule business!

What an arrogant putdown of a perfectly reasonable request from yabadaba. At least Anna came back with a more reasonable response.

well, perhaps SM needs an open thread or something. i don't read some comment threads because the topics don't interest me. i read others because they do interest me. the immigration march or whatever doesn't interest me, and if they posted 10X a day on it i wouldn't read any of those posts. perhaps SM should have and open thread where people can make the case en masse for particular posts without dropping into other discussions which are humming along. also, perhaps we could open up a third column which is titled "very serious posts about very serious issues which the community must read about & discuss" so that those of us not interested could leave closed.

bloom & strauss weren't neocons. just because jesus christ influences social conservatives doesn't mean that he's a social conservative (read the NT for example!).

well, neocon's a vague term with different meanings, but Strauss and bloom are often cited as its philosophical forebearers. their political philosophy is also so nebulous that it covers a lot of ideological ground, as opposed to say libertarianism.

Leo Strauss, father of neoconservatism,

well, perhaps SM needs an open thread or something.

OY. I already spend all day moderating! ;) No open! No openings! NOOoooo!

Hmmm ... I should remember that. SM is not about the community, it is about the 'us' who run SM.

I was sloppy with my wording. I do not speak for the SM admins. I am a reader like you. I meant diaries and comments in talking about it.

Anna, nice post, with content and links providing a lot of background. Unfortunately, I haven't followed the issue in sufficient detail to say exactly how the opposition to the Sethusamudram project around the Rama (hi)story got built up. But it is clear to me, that both sides are playing politics in the name of religious (or atheistic) sentiments - the Advanis and the Karunanidhis both.

Karunanidhi's recent statements are gratuitously insulting and literally incendiary - extremely dangerous in places like Bangalore, where there is a history of anti-Tamil riots over other issues (Cauvery water sharing) and economic resentment over the success of local Tamil residents as well. I hope nothing much comes of it, and the IT companies, if nobody else, pressure the local administration into keeping the peace.

Karunanidhi's state and ultimately his government and party will benefit from both the investment in the construction of the canal and from the higher trade and maritime traffic that would result - so he's looking at that.

I agree that (i) if there were no serious adverse environmental impact and (ii) the saving in shipping time is truly significant - the project could go ahead, and the religious objections mollified in some way. But the saving in shipping time is nothing even remotely comparable to that which justified the Suez and Panama canals. This is why the whole thing should be looked at more carefully, and I'm not sure that has happened.

I read in a link that Kush posted on the newstab some days ago - that the Adam's Bridge might have prevented the December 2004 Tsunami waves reaching Kerala, and southernmost Tamil Nadu. (The waves and waters, on the other hand, damaged Sri Lankan coasts on both sides, and also went all the way into Mauritius, Madagascar, even Somalia, Tanzania on Africa's east coast. Not as much as in Asia, but still much more than Kerala - where it was almost nothing. Since the earthquake zones in the East Bay of Bengal littoral will be active in the future, the enhanced tsunami risk should be properly considered in the decisionmaking for the project.

Now this is a serious issue in itself, one that I hope will be discussed in more detail here and in the MSM and in India. However, it is even more serious than just that, because, at the very southernmost tip of the peninsula, near Kanyakumari, India is currently building its largest nuclear plant, Koodankulam, with Russian help. This plant will have a capacity of 2 GW by Dec 2008, and that will be about 40% of the installed nuclear capacity in India as of then. It is proposed that another 2.5 GW will be added soon after, so that the location will then be the largest nuclear power plant in the world. The safety of that facility, especially since it is on the sea, and close to the Equator, and directly in the path of a tsunami from the Bay of Bengal, must explicitly be considered. I hope they have done that, though I rather fear they might not have. The Kalpakkam Nuclear Power Plant near Chennai on the East coast did suffer damage during the tsunami, and so did the fast breeder reactor also located there. So the concern is not merely academic. If the Sethusamudram project increases the vulnerability of Koodankulam, that must be properly considered.

So while the issue is being framed as one of 'religious obscurantism' - there are a whole bunch of economic, environmental, climatological, geomorphological, and even geopolitical issues just under the surface. For example, it has been suggested that if substantial shipping traffic began to go through the Sethusamudram canal, it would give India a strategic advantage in the 21st century! These things must be carefully considered, and a full airing of the issues should occur before the narrative of 'atheist insults Hindus' takes over.

Razib -- the news tab functions as an open thread. Allowing comments on the news tab is an option, but given the nature of the SM Community (50% ass**les, 50% whiners, and me) someone would have to monitor the threads.

A better idea is a guest blogger who is interested in DBD issues. But ultmately, SM community members (that is, the commentors) have to be interested in a topic for a comment thread to work (the same problem arises with Muslim and/or Pakistan issues). You may be representative, and maybe SMers are not interested in immigration. One blog cannot be all thigns to all Desis.

well, neocon's a vague term with different meanings, but Strauss and bloom are often cited as its philosophical forebearers. their political philosophy is also so nebulous that it covers a lot of ideological ground, as opposed to say libertarianism.

yes, it is a vague term. and strass and bloom were influences, but so was plato. but instead of allowing vague terms to become more expansive, if you are a neocon it seems like you should be careful about including in people who don't really "fit." my own perception of neoconservatism is from irving kristol's book reflections of a neoconservative, though that's a bit dated.

Pravin - "Curisor, Trust me. I got a lot to say about that stuff too. But people like Anna on this site have done a great job understanding other religions more than many Hindu Indian Americans. So I am not going to start bashing all the beliefs of these religions I find amusing if they are not related to the diary entry at hand. If someone puts up an entry on evolution debate in US schools, people like me won't hold back on the stupidity of Christian fundies or in the case of Sania Mirza's dress, how the Islamic fundies needed to get a life."

In comment # 4 you did not challenge only the Hindu fundamentalists, you challenged the very authenticity of the Ramayana, which for most Hindus is as holy as the Bible for the Christians or Quran for the Muslims.

Wow, 50+ comments in just over an hour - seems to be a fairly hot button topic. Wonder why! :D

SkepMod said it well early on:

I wish there was more coverage of the ecological and economic effects of this shipping channel. Instead, this stupid debate about gods, myths takes center-stage.

I totally agree with this from the lower reaches of my left ventricle. As a Tam person with an engineering background from Madras, I am totally *disgusted* that an engineering project off the TN coast is being "evaluated" (both positively and negatively) by nutjobs on the basis of religion. It is tough for me to find humor in this mess (and that's saying a lot given that I usually like to make jokes about everything).

What I find particularly irksome is that (within TN) there is a fight brewing along the following lines:

1. Tamil vs non-Tamil (sometimes extrapolated to Dravidian vs Aryan)
2. Hindu vs anti-Hindu ("Rama was so divine that he built the bridge by magic" vs "There was no Rama and he was also a drunk guy who did not get a degree in Civil Engineering").
3. Tamil Hindus who identify more with Tamil vs Tamil Hindus who identify more with Hindu.

What I would particularly like to know is:

1. What is the relative benefit to shipping? Does it make a difference if it is local shipping (Thoothukudi to Ennore) or international shipping (Bahrain to Chennai)? How much time & fuel do ships really save? If they save a few hours in the transport time, does it translate to a real saving or are they just going to wait off the port entrances for those hours because the ports cannot handle the increased capacity?
2. What is the environmental impact in the Gulf of Mannar? Will it affect the local fish population? If so, do fisherfolk have a fall-back plan?
3. Ramifications for Sri Lanka - would it help the Sri Lankan economy? If it does, where - Jaffna or Colombo? How is the demographic going to skew? Is Sri Lanka a cost-sharing partner? Is the canal being designed for both Sri Lankan and Indian shipping traffic levels?

you challenged the very authenticity of the Ramayana, which for most Hindus is as holy as the Bible for the Christians or Quran for the Muslims

do people agree with this? i've read a fair amount of hindutva material recently and it seems that a better analog to the bible or koran are the vedas.

When I was young, I watched the Mahabharata serial...Then we watched Ramayana

oh snap. i've been hearing from more and more from people who watched those serials. i couldn't sit through the whole thing again. but, man, i was crazy addicted to those shows. remember dhuryodhan and bhim fight in the end. yeah that was dope.

Ikram - "I really doubt Mr. Abbas Naqvi thinks Ram was real. So what's the state of his mental bank account?'

Are you doubting his sincerity because he is Muslim?

Razib

The ridicule business has started and no wonder from the scientific elite, who finally and just in the nick of time have decided that there is a real danger of faith pushing the human species back into the Dark Ages.
Check this out.
http://beyondbelief2006.org/

Many of you would want to be a part of this movement.I know there are a lot of closeted \"Brights\"
who would normally shy away from ridiculing irrationality, straining to speak out.

In comment # 4 you did not challenge only the Hindu fundamentalists, you challenged the very authenticity of the Ramayana, which for most Hindus is as holy as the Bible for the Christians or Quran for the Muslims

And I do not believe in Christ as a real son of God and i do not believe Muhammad actually heard the voice of God. I made comments about Islam with friends when talking about the South Park controversy over the depiction of Muhammad. And when people tell me I am not saved, I do give them my sarcastic take on Christ and Mary. Besides my comments were in reaction to people already threatening Karunanidhi for his speech. I would not go unsolicited and tell someone they are an idiot for believing in Rama building that bridge or even if he was real or not.

yes, it is a vague term. and strass and bloom were influences, but so was plato.

strauss and bloom are more than influences like plato, they are considered to be the founding fathers of this nebulous political philosophy. and if you read them (i've never read strauss but am more than familiar with bloom) you see how they are all about subtly and nuance, to the point that people have no idea what they are talking about or what they stand for even after reading them, as opposed to say rand.

in general, neocons seems conservative but are really liberal at heart. thus social conservatives read blooms "closing of the american mind" while being oblivious to his athiesm (or homosexuality). this work, one of my favorites, is seemingly conservative in its attack on multiculturalism but is very liberal at heart,(thus the title, which bemoans a rising closed-mindedness on campus).

so the nature of neoconservatism is that it will always be somewhat undefinable. it embraces apparent contradictions, the anti-communist liberals, colonialists who spread democracy, athiests who cite the bible (like bloom), idealists who are instructed by machiavelli.

Thank you anna,

Thank you so much. I was gonna ask you to post bout this as blogs everywhere have been screaming bout the identity crisis 'Lord Rama' is facing. This is my current fav topic and I've been doing so much research bout it , I hope it meanders into a mega thread.....

do people agree with this? i've read a fair amount of hindutva material recently and it seems that a better analog to the bible or koran are the vedas.

In North India, particularly the Hindi belt, the Tulsidas Ramayana enjoys very high ritual status, so I can see some people making the claim that it has the status of the Koran does to Muslims. Some scholars believe that the Tulsi Ramayana was the Hindu answer to "the people of the Book."

While the Vedas are regarded nominally as the "highest," keep in mind that the recitations were restricted for the most part to Brahmans, though ideas from the Vedas certainly percolated through the Puranas, which were transmitted orally, from village to village in festivals.

The Kamban Ramayana is the Tamil Ramayana. Its widely regarded as the greatest literary work ever written in Tamil. It was written by a non-Brahmin. However, it doesn't have the same status that the Tulsi Ramayana does in North India. The Tamil Vasihnavas have their own "fifth Veda" comprised of hymns from 12 Vaishnava Saints known as Alwars.

Bottom line; There is no one book for Hindus.

chachaji@57: I heart your analysis!

Serious non-rhetorical question: can a shipping canal change the topography of the sea floor so much that it can affect tsunami propagation characteristics?

Also, I have read two (conflicting) accounts in the media of the planned implementation of the canal: one involves the large-scale dredging of Adam's Bridge to make the sea floor deeper throughout, and the other involves making a cut (literally dredging out a channel) through Adam's Bridge. Does anyone know which is correct here?

The ridicule business has started and no wonder from the scientific elite, who finally and just in the nick of time have decided that there is a real danger of faith pushing the human species back into the Dark Ages.
Check this out.
http://beyondbelief2006.org/

brother, no need to preach.

a) i've watched EVERY one of the beyond belief segments already
b) i was involved in the atheist movement in college
c) so trust me, faith that the promised age is coming will be in vain

and if you read them (i've never read strauss but am more than familiar with bloom) you see how they are all about subtly and nuance, to the point that people have no idea what they are talking about or what they stand for even after reading them, as opposed to say rand.

straussian ideas of "reading" sound really PoMo to me.

in general, neocons seems conservative but are really liberal at heart.

the premises of neoconservatism are fundamentally liberal. i wrote for the american conservative, so i know plenty of people who would call neocons liberals ;-)

"mutazili views still exist in shiism." .. Interesting read. But still, a statement like that by Karuna would be viewed as blasphemy by contemporary islam in majority, whereas athiests are not considered extremely dangerous in hinduism, otherwise the leftist & south indian self proclaimed atheist power centers wouldn't have been there.

Theres an international angle to this as well, apparently the americans want to make these international waters ala suez canal.Though we only have the vhp account of things on that, I didnt get any more info.

BTW this project is done with. No one wants to give the communal parties the fodder they need to come out of the doldrums - it's not happening. Any believe the insertion of the ASI material was sabotage? Who would be foolish enough to put that in there, considering the fact that anger about Ram is what catapulted the BJP parties to power in the first place? Then again...

Interesting read. But still, a statement like that by Karuna would be viewed as blasphemy by contemporary islam in majority, whereas athiests are not considered extremely dangerous in hinduism, otherwise the leftist & south indian self proclaimed atheist power centers wouldn't have been there.

in Alternative Tradition: A Study of Unbelief in the Ancient World the author claims that the 'blasphemy' of groups like the carvaka in india did not have to do with their atheism since that is an acceptable position within the hindu tradition. rather, it was their rejection of karma and absolute materialism (and rejection of metaphysics as a whole).

Quoting risible:

Any believe the insertion of the ASI material was sabotage? Who would be foolish enough to put that in there, considering the fact that anger about Ram is what catapulted the BJP parties to power in the first place?

Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity! :D

When I was young, I watched the Mahabharata serial...Then we watched Ramayana

I coudl never get into the Hindi versions. I preferred the South Indian portrayals of Hindu gods, especially NT RamaRao's. Mayabazaar is a must see for those into this kind of stuff. For me the difference between South Indian and North Indian versions is like the difference between black churches and white churches in terms of the fun aspect. I am just saying this based on my own experience, not as an absolute truth or anything.

While the Vedas are regarded nominally as the "highest," keep in mind that the recitations were restricted for the most part to Brahmans, though ideas from the Vedas certainly percolated through the Puranas, which were transmitted orally, from village to village in festivals.

Bottom line; There is no one book for Hindus.

The ramayana, mahabharata and Bhagavad Gita have been translated, abridged and thus more market friendly. The tulsidas ramayan is one classic example of taking the scriptures to the masses. The ramayana and mahabharata have the advantage of being story-based and hence the masses find them engaging and easy to grasp. The finer plots are laced with pearls of wisdom on daily life, administration, dharma etc.

The 400 questions that Bharata asked Rama before the latter left for vanavas, helped him govern the kingdom and are now to be added to school cirriculum. Same holds for the bhagavad gita and the mahabharat, but the vedas are chants which are firstly impossible to translate and then they aren't enticing to keep the reader engrossed.

However you make a valid point of not having a book, there seems to be some action in that direction as well, see link

Quoting Shodan:

So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That's some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar.

ROFL! I tell you, everything came from India! Even the Invisible Pink Unicorn came from India!

the other involves making a cut (literally dredging out a channel) through Adam's Bridge. Does anyone know which is correct here?

The project involves dredging out a channel through adams bridge. The fun part is that dredging has already begun and the strong sediment layer has damaged two dredgers. The TN govt plans to import one now.

Call it divine intervention, or mother nature's wrath. This has bought the other parties, time to fire their salvos.

The project involves dredging out a channel through adams bridge. The fun part is that dredging has already begun and the strong sediment layer has damaged two dredgers. The TN govt plans to import one now.

Why not high explosive demolition charges like the ones used in quarrying rock? This is just underwater rock right? Given the shallowness, I don't see a major problem in placing the charges. Not a technical problem anyway.

"atheism is an acceptable position within the hindu tradition."
exactly ! & that is not the case with any other 'way of life'.

Ok, leave alone Karuna, how did the ASI officials managed to put in a reference to Ramas non existence,
into the report that could have been simply that it is a natural formation ! Is this a way of congress reminding
leftists that if elections are held now, there is a chance for the 'communal' forces to come into power ?
a li'l conspiracy theorish perhaps ?

pingpong:

Totally agree with you. However, there is a side benefit to this controversy. I dont personally like Karunanidhi. I agree with freedom of speech etc and dont mind what he says about Rama, but if this ends with the fall of Karunanithi's upcoming evil dynasty, then I'm all for it. People shouldn't mistake Karunanidhi's actions as bravery. He sits in his throne and shoots his mouth off when he should shut up but remains silent at countless other injustices.

Anna:

Most hindus are half-assed. That pisses off the hindu fanatics more than muslims or christians. There are too many contradictions within hinduism for someone to be a true believer without being a nutter. I'm proud to be half-assed-hindu(Today's WORD).

Is it true what Karunanidhi says? Does the Ramayana refer to Ram as being a drunk? Does anyone know?

If he's right, then why blast the guy for pointing it out, if he's wrong then someone should slap him with the truth! I haven't seen any comments or articles (may have missed them) yet that answer this question.

exactly ! & that is not the case with any other 'way of life'.

that's false. reconstructionist jews are generally not theistic. additionally, confucianism has a long streak of anti-supernaturalism which dates back to xunzi (i'm excluding jainism & buddhism since they are indian derived traditions). of course, i'm sure there are non-supernaturalist confucians who would make the case for the the uniqueness of their tradition without knowing that hinduism has its own cognates, people are mostly familiar with what is culturally near. so just a warning to be careful about generalization (i accept that generalization is necessary and essential in communication!).

Why not high explosive demolition charges like the ones used in quarrying rock? This is just underwater rock right? Given the shallowness, I don't see a major problem in placing the charges. Not a technical problem anyway.

India and Srilanka share the adams bridge as their territorial cross. Now India has to dig out a channel and then dump all that sediment in Indian territorial waters only. The dredging will kill the coral reef and the rare species found there, the dumping will ruin the fishing and 700 families will be stripped of their livelihood....

There are too many contradictions within hinduism for someone to be a true believer without being a nutter

how many contradictions are necessary before someone has to be half-assed to be intellectual honest? because of the range of hindu beliefs i can accept that hinduism has more contradiction than christianity. but quantitatively does it matter that there are 1,000 vs. 500 contradictions? 10,000 vs. 100 contradictions? a cursory reading of christian scripture and theology manifests plenty of contradiction (which is why the church fathers were generally not biblical literalists, they accepted the likelihood of allegory and metaphor so as to preserve inerrancy). i think that the difference isn't the number of contradictions, but the acceptance that contradiction and disagreement is normal. in contrast, many christians and muslims contend that difference is unacceptable because there is One True Way, so despite the contradiction and wide differences of opinion within the religion many of the various camps do not accept that the others as as christian or muslim. some hindus are like this as well, but it seems quantitatively less prominent within the religion.

that's false. reconstructionist jews are generally not theistic. additionally, confucianism has a long streak of anti-supernaturalism which dates back to xunzi (i'm excluding jainism & buddhism since they are indian derived traditions). of course, i'm sure there are non-supernaturalist confucians who would make the case for the the uniqueness of their tradition without knowing that hinduism has its own cognates, people are mostly familiar with what is culturally near. so just a warning to be careful about generalization (i accept that generalization is necessary and essential in communication!).

Since you are an open carvaka, I suggest you formally declare allegiance to hinduism, since it was the way of your ancestors...Bangladesh is a very recent construction :-) BTW what would you do if your child wanted to become a Muslim? Would you be okay with that?

The dredging will kill the coral reef and the rare species found there, the dumping will ruin the fishing and 700 families will be stripped of their livelihood....

Thank you for answering one of my questions in #60. If the canal project does go through, is there some way of not damaging the coral reef? For instance, if a ship passing through the channel washes its tanks and dumps the effluent at sea, can the current carry the effluent away from the coral reef? (Just asking - a channel project won't automatically wipe out all marine life, but the risk must be carefully analyzed before deciding whether to go ahead or not).

Since you are an open carvaka, I suggest you formally declare allegiance to hinduism, since it was the way of your ancestors...Bangladesh is a very recent construction :-)

i have no great issues with hindus "claiming" me if they choose so long as they leave me and my beef burger in peace.

BTW what would you do if your child wanted to become a Muslim? Would you be okay with that?

the short answer is no, I WOULD NOT BE OK (and neither would my fiance). the main issue general is not religion, but supernaturalism, btw (though i find islam to be the most abhorrent of religions). luckily myself and my fiance are both rather "dead to the voice of god," so the likelihood that our offspring would be like us is high (i've looked a bit into the behavior genetics of this).

since it was the way of your ancestors

btw, my paternal grandmother was born a hindu (though her family converted when she was 1 or 2 years old). so they aren't just distant ancestors.

i wouldn't bother analyzing anything karunanidhi says. this guy names his son stalin, for rama's sake.

is there some way of not damaging the coral reef? For instance, if a ship passing through the channel washes its tanks and dumps the effluent at sea, can the current carry the effluent away from the coral reef?

The waters are very shallow and only 10mts deep. Dredging will disturb the balance, increasing temperature, stronger currents will enter the region and this increase in water levels will submerge parts of both india and SL....
Below is what I could find online....

Though there has been a demand from various quarters for the implementation of the project, there is also opposition to it from environmentalists. They point out that the dredging of the Palk Strait and the Gulf of Mannar, by modifying habitats, could affect the ecology of the zone by changing currents. This could:

* cause changes in temperature, salinity, turbidity and flow of nutrients
* cause oilspills from ship and other marine pollution to reach the coastal areas and specifically the sensitive ecosystems of the Gulf of Mannar
* lead to higher tides and to more energetic waves, and hence to coastal erosion.
* affect the local sea temperature and thereby alter the pattern of sea-breezes and hence affect rainfall patterns.

They also point out that dredging the canal would stir up sediment the dust and toxins that lie beneath the sea bed, smothering corals and affecting marine life. The emptying of bilge water from ships travelling through the hitherto impassable areas could diperse invasive species through the ecosystems of the area.

These effects could endanger precious marine species and wealth. The Gulf of Mannar has 3,600 species of plants and animals and is India's biologically richest coastal region. Mammal species which abound in the area are sperm whales, dolphins and dugongs. The Gulf of Mannar is especially known for its corals: the portion in Indian territorial waters has 117 species of corals, belonging to 37 genera. Associated with these ecosystems are many varieties of fish and crustaceans. Marine life on the Sri Lankan side, which is better protected, is even richer. The Bar Reef off the Kalpitiya peninsular alone has 156 species of coral and 283 of fish; there are two other coral reef systems around Mannar and Jaffna. There are extensive banks of oysters, as well as Indian Chank and Sea Cucumbers, especially in the seas adjacent to Mannar. The pearl fisheries south of Mannar, which inspired Georges Bizet's opera Les Pêcheurs de Perles, have not been productive for many years, indicating the fragility of these ecosystems in the face of overfishing and of relatively minor changes in the habitat.

Despite these concerns, official environmental clearance has been given for the project. The contention that the Sethusamudram Canal will cut through coral reefs and disturb the ecology has been dismissed as a mistaken fear.

The Indian government has conducted various environmental studies which has concluded that such issues are overblown and not based on science. However, skeptics have noted that environmentalist objections remain, including:

* the Environmental Impact Assessment carried out by the Indian government was done by a body inexperienced in projects of this nature, was insufficiently detailed and did not consult with all the stakeholders, which included the government and people on the southern side of the proposed project,
* no proper survey has been carried out of the sea bed to be dredged, and
* no proper scientific modelling of the effects of the project has been carried out.

i have no great issues with hindus "claiming" me if they choose so long as they leave me and my beef burger in peace

Is it just my relatives and family friends, or do more recent immigrant families of Indian Hindus seem more reluctant to eat beef compared to those of us whose parents came here in the 60s or 70s. Whenver I have BBQs , I notice this.

People who follow DMK , will not be surprised by his remarks but personally hearing such things about lord Rama hurts me.

The tamil rationalist leader EV Ramasami Naicker also known as Periyar is the father of the atheist rationalist movement called the Dravidian movement. This forms the guiding ideology of the DMK and to a lesser extent the AIADMK (the AIADMK is not atheist). He had his positives, but he also broke several idols and garlanded statues of Ram with slippers. MK comes from this school, so I guess calling Ram a drunkard ( in comparison garlanding Ram statues with slippers ) doesn't shock me , but ( as stated earlier) hurts me.

On a side note , if you want a filmy version of how DMK was born and split , you have to check out the tamizh movie IRUVAR by Mani Ratnam. Of course , you will get a celebrated , glamorized and non controversial version of what really happened in the state , but movie has it own merits apart from Rahman and being TMBWITW first movie ! Aish plays Jayalaitha , Mohan Lal MGR and Prakash Raj - MK.

This is MK in the movie !

Due to the absence of coverage in the mainstream english media (CNN-IBN is running yet another headline about who is greater King Khan or Big Bee). Here is a compilation from the vernacular print media about the recent events in the state of Tamilnadu. This time it has nothing to do with Dalits like in Maharashtra. You can see the difference between violence born of oppression and that born of hatred.

I wonder how much all this hot air in India has contributed to increase in global warming by now. :)

More dosa pr0n, please. Maybe throw in some uttappam to make it extra kinky.

This subject is incendiary and the Congress party messed up big time in its initial response to the dredging of the straits. The archaeological institute bungled by using too much legalese in its response. To paraphrase, "although the importance of the Ramayana can not be discounted, there is no historical evidence of the same". This was seized upon by the nationalist parties and twisted into an inflammatory statement to revive their flagging fortunes. Again, to paraphrase, "when there is no Rama, there can be no Rama bridge". It led to riots and people died in parts of UP and Haryana. I consider this gross political incompetence on part of the Congress party to have not seen it coming and to not have used better judgement when releasing the official statement. Karunanidhi is using this to further his own credentials within his political base.

I swear, one month in India is like a decade anywhere else in the world. It's sort of like the Brahmic timeframe.

"@Shoan 27 "So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That's some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar."

Maybe he wants to say that the fictional novel ramayana, written by the best selling author valmiki had a protagonist named rama who was fond of soma ras. Thats an old edition , heres the new one."

so, karunanidhi wants to have his cake and eat it too. makes as much sense as the asi saying the ramayana cannot be used to prove the existence of Rama. of course it can't. neither can any religious book/epic. but it cannot be used to prove that no such figure existed either.

i thought the nda govt. said dredging was ok if the bridge could be saved? (on headlines today they made it seem that the bjp and vhp are not exactly on the same page when it comes to the project.)

as for the environmental impact, which should be the greatest consideration in whether the dredging should go ahead or not, sometimes religion serves to protect the environment, even if for religious reasons - such as india's sacred groves which, by virtue of religious taboos, help to preserve some of the world's rarest plants and animals. when the religious taboo goes or changes in character, as has been shown in some part of india's northeast and in the western ghats, the environment suffers.

He sits in his throne and shoots his mouth off when he should shut up but remains silent at countless other injustices.

Since this thread is at least partly about Karunanidhi's person and personality - I've always been curious why he (and MGR before him) always wear dark glasses all the time, including indoors. It's one of the things about him that irritates me - irrationally, of course :)Anybody care to share some wisdom in the matter?

when the religious taboo goes or changes in character, as has been shown in some part of india's northeast and in the western ghats, the environment suffers.

What happened?

@ 87 - Most hindus are half-assed. That pisses off the hindu fanatics more than muslims or christians. There are too many contradictions within hinduism for someone to be a true believer without being a nutter. I'm proud to be half-assed-hindu(Today's WORD).

Add me to the list !

Since this thread is at least partly about Karunanidhi's person and personality - I've always been curious why he (and MGR before him) always wear dark glasses all the time, including indoors. It's one of the things about him that irritates me - irrationally, of course :)Anybody care to share some wisdom in the matter?

Don't know about MGR, but Karunanidhi has a glass eye that he doesn't want to show in public. You can see him without his dark glasses in the video of his midnight arrest, which was played ad nauseam on Sun TV (big surprise there).

Pravin @ 4:26

Just your family friends and relatives.

"recent immigrant families of Indian Hindus" like mine and my friends(unless you exclude me again from your community under another classification) enjoy a nice juicy beef burger and a peepper crusted steak grilled to a perfection on my fling from this summer

sometimes religion serves to protect the environment, even if for religious reasons

True, The NDA sanctioned the project to dredge between rameshwaram and the indian coast such that it enables out ships from Chennai to tuticorin. This is cheaper, involves less dredging and will suffice the needs of our ships. Our ships spend 10-30 hours extra while going around srilanka.

The TN govt however wants to make it a huge canal like the suez canal and is targeting toll fees from the humungous european ships that will use it. The fact is that those ships just lose 8hours going around srilanka and paying toll to use the sethusamudram will not make things cheaper for them.

The TN govt is banking on the profits earned from this toll to pay for the dredging expenses. At the present tariff rates, ships from Africa and Europe will lose $ 4,992 on every voyage, as the savings in time for these ships are considerably lower that what is calculated.....

To add more about the indoor use of sunglasses by MGR & Karunanidhi:

There's an old Tamil proverb "alpathukku bavushu vandhaa ardharathrila kodai mottam pidichikkadhu, cooling glass-um potakkum", which sort of means "when a stingy person suddenly becomes rich, he/she will not only hold an umbrella in the middle of the night, he/she will also wear sunglasses".

pingpong: I have heard the umbrella angle, but first time that I am hearing the sunglass angle :D ROTFL!

But jokes apart, I think both Karunanidhi and MGR have/had some issues with eyesight. And it looks like someone was very curious about his dark glasses and actually posted a question on Yahoo Answers.

Our ships spend 10-30 hours extra while going around srilanka.

The TN govt however wants to make it a huge canal like the suez canal and is targeting toll fees from the humungous european ships that will use it. The fact is that those ships just lose 8hours going around srilanka and paying toll to use the sethusamudram will not make things cheaper for them.

Interesting - why are Indian ships so underpowered? Any reasons?

There's one other factor for the canal - the Indian government may be thinking (rather optimistically) that if they deepen the Palk Strait then deep-draft vessels from the Persian Gulf, Africa and Europe will stop at places like Thoothukudi and Nagapattinam. I don't see that happening - even though Thoothukudi is connected into National Highway 7 (Kanyakumari-Varanasi) by a spur, it is not close to major demand centers or to major manufacturing centers to justify its expanded use for international trade.

@ 102 -> I thought Sun TV was DMK aligned and Jaya TV was the AIADMK one?

Interesting - why are Indian ships so underpowered? Any reasons?

They are smaller ships that are used for domestic cargo. Also the technology is kinda old.

There's one other factor for the canal - the Indian government may be thinking (rather optimistically) that if they deepen the Palk Strait then deep-draft vessels from the Persian Gulf, Africa and Europe will stop at places like Thoothukudi and Nagapattinam.

The State Government has announced its proposal to develop 13 minor ports, including Ennore, Cuddalore, Nagapattinam, Thondi, Valinokam, Kolachel and Kanyakumari. Also tuticorin is all set to become a nodal point....

pingpong, thanks for answering the dark glasses question.

On your question @69, as to whether a channel through the Sethusamudram could really affect tsunami propagation, my short answer would be 'yes'. It could, depending on where it was, how deep it was, how long it was, how wide it was, and where the tsunami came from, and how strong the earthquake was, and so on. So the onus should be on those suggesting the channel project to show that the additional risk is within acceptable bounds. They could use geomorphological maps, distribution of previous earthquakes, hydrodynamics, etc to make their case.

Here's an excerpt from the link that Kush posted:

Professor Tad Murthy, the world renowned tsunami expert, who advised the Government of India on the tsunami warning system and edited the Tsunami Journal for over 20 years, has also warned that the present Setu Samudram route may result in tsunami waves hitting Kerala more fiercely. In a reply to a query regarding the Sethusanmudram's impact, he wrote:

During the Indian Ocean tsunami of December 26, 2004, the southern part of Kerala was generally spared from a major tsunami, mainly because the tsunami waves from Sumatra region travelling south of the Sri Lankan island, partially diffracted northward and affected the central part of the Kerala coast. Since the tsunami is a long gravity wave (similar to tides and storm surges) during the diffraction process, the rather wide turn it has to take spared the south Kerala coast. On the other hand, deepening the Sethu Canal might provide a more direct route for the tsunami and this could impact south Kerala

I don't see that happening - even though Thoothukudi is connected into National Highway 7 (Kanyakumari-Varanasi) by a spur, it is not close to major demand centers or to major manufacturing centers to justify its expanded use for international trade.

Pingpong: I think the idea is to draw business to the area because of the port. The port's website says that container traffic has been growing at 17.5 percent annually in the past five years (container handling at the port started in 1999) and a study by students at Wharton and the Planning commision of India concluded that the port's container handling facilities are comparable to ports such as Hongkong and Singapore.

Burning libraries, roasting people alive in buses. Boy, the much talked about Hinduism as a way of life, no compulsions, everything is Hinduism meme on SM has sure taken a beating.

@ 102 -> I thought Sun TV was DMK aligned and Jaya TV was the AIADMK one?

Yes, they are exactly that. Karunanidhi was arrested by Jayalalitha (for no good reason) in the middle of the night. He resisted arrest (by holding onto his armchair) and screamed blue murder "Aargh they are trying to kill me help help" (again for no good reason), which was shown in a loop on Sun TV interspersed with talking heads lamenting this police brutality, while Jaya TV droned on and on about the reasons for his arrest (whatever they were). Now I don't know exactly why a Sun TV crew was there to record MK's arrest, but it happens only in Tamil Nadu.

The State Government has announced its proposal to develop 13 minor ports, including Ennore, Cuddalore, Nagapattinam, Thondi, Valinokam, Kolachel and Kanyakumari. Also tuticorin is all set to become a nodal point....

Big thinking, what? Not all of them are well connected by access roads or railways. No doubt MK wants to build them too. Ever observed that every time the DMK comes to power in TN, there always a spate of big construction projects? The Veeranam pipeline in the 1960s/1970s along the Old Mahabalipuram Road south of Madras, the development of Ashok Nagar, Anna Nagar and KK Nagar in the 1970s, the flyovers in the 1990s/2000s, this canal, the proposed new international airport for Madras... Big construction projects afford a lot of ways to make money on the side. Jayalalitha's style of making money on the other hand is big social projects (large-scale saree distribution and stuff). Bah, I'm cynical about the public spiritedness of TN politicians.

So the onus should be on those suggesting the channel project to show that the additional risk is within acceptable bounds. They could use geomorphological maps, distribution of previous earthquakes, hydrodynamics, etc to make their case.

Chachaji, thanks for the info you provided from Kush's link. I agree that not all the required analysis has been done, and that this project seems to have been approved rather hastily.

"What happened?"

in areas such as meghalaya, where there was significant conversion to christianity, the percentage of cover in sacred groves declined. the percentage of forest cover in a certain grove or in a forest was in direct proportion to how strictly the local population observed the practice of treating groves/forests/certain plants and animals within them as sacred/not to be touched unless under special circumstances and local laws. since there was no longer any need for some people to believe in the sacredness of particular trees/plants/animals etc., these groves declined in area as they were cut down for other uses and the flora/fauna within them declined as well.

in areas of southern india (and other parts of india) where the locals swapped more nature-based or what is called "lower" forms of hinduism (the "superstitions" and "myths" and "ritual" that some people complain overwhelm hinduism and should be abandoned in favour of its more vedic/philosophical roots) for "upper" or more "sanskritized" forms of hinduism (meaning cutting down a grove to build a bigger, more formal temple instead of being content with the small shrine in a tree or with the tree itself), sacred groves also declined in size and number. urbanization/economic growth/westernization/development has also led to their rapid decline over the last century, with the children of the traditional guardians of sacred groves no longer interested in continuing that lifestyle or holding on to that land for that purpose alone. and some states in india, being a secular country, don't recognize any of these groves as sacred but as reserve forests, giving the state the right to do with them as they will (but generally reserve forests fare decently under the state).

this is not to say that religion should trump all other considerations in making development decisions - and many "superstitions" (whether from "higher" or "lower" forms of any religion) are indeed harmful -- but sometimes people -- including the most vocal religious ones -- lose sight of the useful age-old wisdoms in their rush to be seen as "secular", "modern", "rational" or whatever you want to call it. there should be ways of balancing all these concerns without all sides resorting to extremes (and that includes environmental extremists at times.)

re #91: maxdavinci, that was a good rundown of some of the major environmental concerns.

"They need to let the guy express his opinion and shut up about their own ignorance."

a fairer statement would be "they both need to let the other guy express his opinion/ignorance" or "they both need to shut up about their opinion/ignorance" :)

I think the idea is to draw business to the area because of the port. The port's website says that container traffic has been growing at 17.5 percent annually in the past five years (container handling at the port started in 1999) and a study by students at Wharton and the Planning commision of India concluded that the port's container handling facilities are comparable to ports such as Hongkong and Singapore.

Anantha, I got a 404 Page Not Found error for your link. Anyway, I'm not questioning the Thoothukudi port's capacity to handle cargo - I'm not convinced however that there is a sound reason for international trade to Thoothukudi (even though it is a very good port) purely because it is not close to major demand centers. For instance, it makes sense to have large ports in Chennai and Ennore to accommodate the automotive and chemicals industries (not to mention receiving part of the cargo meant for Bangalore). I don't see a major *use* for a large port in Thoothukudi, because it is not close to major cities, unless maybe the TN govt wants to combine a large port in the region with cheap wind power from the Nagercoil area and/or nuclear power from Koodankulam to create a major industrial zone there. That would probably make up for the fact that it is not close to demand centers nor is it particularly close to agricultural belts like the Kaveri delta.

Burning libraries, roasting people alive in buses. Boy, the much talked about Hinduism as a way of life, no compulsions, everything is Hinduism meme on SM has sure taken a beating.

ACFD: I prefer the overly acquisitive "Hindu" meme that reabsorbs heterodoxies to the meme that "Others" people for slight deviations in theology.

tamilnadu deserves its leaders - it is a culture that glorifies movie stars, "elevates" them to politicians, and constantly supports people like jj, mk, and mgr, who are various degrees of corrupt and inefficient. and how fitting that the bajrang dal has behaved like rama's faithful army of monkeys in inflicting damage on his behalf.

on a lighter note, i believe an appropriate title for this post given the context of destruction of big stone obstacles would be "battering ram". also, if prabhakaran abducted mrs. advani, wouldn't advani fly to her rescue on air mihin instead of using a half submerged land bridge?

probably not a popular thing to say, but i wish the words "meme" and "conflate" - perfectly serviceable english words but threadbare by now - could be retired from blogspeak for a suitable rest period :)

Advani openly said he respected Karunanidhis right to be an atheist, but did not like him dissing Hinduism. Now which Supremo of any other "fundamentalist" political configuration would say such a thing?

Stupidity all around...
1) On the part of the government for making a needlessly incendiary statement, one that would never have been made against a minority religion
2) On the part of the Ram bakhts for ignoring the science that shows "Ram setu" to be a natural, rather than manmade, formation. For behaving like savages in showing their anger
3) On the part of Karuna for picking a fight needlessly

ACFD: I prefer the overly acquisitive "Hindu" meme that reabsorbs heterodoxies to the meme that "Others" people for slight deviations in theology.

I am not sure about the much discussed superiority of Hinduism when heterodoxy is met with burning of buses which has people inside.

1) On the part of the government for making a needlessly incendiary statement, one that would never have been made against a minority religion

So the problem is that Muslims and Sikhs were not similarly dissed. I would imagine that the Indian minorities will gladly take dissing in exchange for security and protection by the State.

re #120: concise, accurate summation of this brouhaha.

ACFD: Keep at the misdirection ACFD. It is hard work trying to show that the daily insanity between Sunnis & Shia is equivalent to the sporadic mob violence in a majority Hindu country.

I'm proud to be half-assed-hindu(Today's WORD).

Rasudha,
Well-said. So am I !

Razib,
You said:

the short answer is no, I WOULD NOT BE OK (and neither would my fiance). the main issue general is not religion, but supernaturalism,

Don't you think you should let your future kids find their own truth rather than impose yours on them? Ina reverse situation, if someone was forcing their belief in a Supreme power on their kids, I am sure you will agree that it is not correct.

^^ Well said.

WGiia@114: much thanks! I did not know the interplay between religious edicts and environmental protection earlier. On this topic, is it true that the general objection to cow slaughter in Hinduism was rooted in economic protectionism in the Vedic era?

louiecypher@120: accurate description. One might also add "distracting general public from evaluating an engineering project, by using religious media manipulation, on the part of all parties".

this is not to say that religion should trump all other considerations in making development decisions - and many "superstitions" (whether from "higher" or "lower" forms of any religion) are indeed harmful -- but sometimes people -- including the most vocal religious ones -- lose sight of the useful age-old wisdoms in their rush to be seen as "secular", "modern", "rational" or whatever you want to call it.

Well said.

ACFD: Keep at the misdirection ACFD. It is hard work trying to show that the daily insanity between Sunnis & Shia is equivalent to the sporadic mob violence in a majority Hindu country.

So Hinduism is great because the Hindus have not yet stooped to the 7th century inspired barbarity of Muslims?

Don't you think you should let your future kids find their own truth rather than impose yours on them? Ina reverse situation, if someone was forcing their belief in a Supreme power on their kids, I am sure you will agree that it is not correct.

1) the choices parents make shape the views of their children. children move in their own direction, but it isn't a probability distribution influenced by parental parameters.

2) no, i don't accept my children in whatever truth they find. there is a strong likelihood that they could "pass" as white. what if they decided to hide their brown past and pass as white nationalists? this has happened with biracial individuals before (an australian neo-nazi leader and also in the USA). that's an extreme case, but i find fundamentalist muslims as distasteful as white nationalists. if my child was a moderate muslim i would ratchet down my distaste and contempt proportionally. they can make whatever choice they want as adults but there are constraints that i as a parent would impose that i would never apologize for. as an analogy, if two parents are jains and their teenage son decides he wants to become a muslim and slaughter his own animals in the garage for halal meat how would they feel? should they "accept his truth"? i find the belief in primitive bronze age gods and their repulsive orthopraxies incomprehensible in the last and barbaric at the extreme, and i accept that such mindless incomprehensibility & barbarism is going to be ubiquitous in our world as long as i live. but i would never tolerate such within my own house. bonds of affection are contingent upon more than blood alone, there must be fellow feeling and understanding of the world as it is and what values are critical for the good life.

3) and yes, i accept the right of parents to indoctrinate their children in their ridiculous fantasies so long as they don't violate laws or basic human rights (e.g., start sacrificing their first born or anything ret*rded like that). some people can shed their fantasies, but most people are sheep. so be it. this isn't heaven.

and yes, my fiance agrees with me on the details here.

but it isn't a probability distribution influenced by parental parameters.

uninfluenced.

Razib,
Thanks for the detailed reply.

I agree with you on (1) .Choices parents make of course influence their children
In (2) ,I agree with this:

they can make whatever choice they want as adults but there are constraints that i as a parent would impose that i would never apologize for.

My question to you was not as extreme as discovering that your hypthetical kids are white supremacists or Jihadis.
It was more of : If your future kids decide that they beleive in a Superior Power/God , what will you do?

(3) is unfortunately,inevitable in some cases.

I am ready to share my own take on this :
I believe in God. But should my son choose to be an atheist I have no problem with that. As you said, while he is under my care, he will be exposed to whatver faith I follow. However, I cannot imagine that I would disapprove of his atheism because it really does not harm anyone.

2) On the part of the Ram bakhts for ignoring the science that shows "Ram setu" to be a natural, rather than manmade, formation. For behaving like savages in showing their anger

logic shouldn't be applied to faith. Logic asks questions and faith demands belief. They don't go hand in hand. There are a lot of things that science begs to differ, but don't we ignore science? Religion falls under this category.

I don't say that what they are doing is right, just that faith must be respected and not questioned. The stoning of the chief ministers house is definitely condemned, but when the ecologists failed to save the bridge they turned to divine intervention...

faith must be respected and not questioned

as long as it stays in puja rooms/temples/churches/mosques, not when it tries to impose its norms on society at large. (i don't know enough about the scientific details behind this reef to have an informed opinion about it one way or the other, but whether rama and his band of monkeys built it is definitely not germane to that opinion).

you know what, i believe in science, but if mk had said feynman/einstein was a womanizer, i wouldn't feel the need to beat him up over it. that's his opinion, doesn't change what i think of them. this response of using force to enforce respect for faith smacks of insecurity, bullying and vigilantism.

ACFD : So Hinduism is great because the Hindus have not yet stooped to the 7th century inspired barbarity of Muslims?

^^^ This is where the conversation starts looking like the comments section on rediff, if i want to have a laugh i just visit an article ;)

& Razib@83 : Point taken, being raised in a practising hindu family does make one more familiar .. but again the uniqueness of atheisms position in hinduism seems more drastic because i can remain a hindu while being nastik , dont have to create/join a separate sect for it. Also, since there has been no 'final word' since its inception as a vedic religion, the search continues.

when the ecologists failed to save the bridge they turned to divine intervention...

Max, I must disagree with the phrasing of that statement. The ecologists' duty is not to save the bridge - it is to analyze and protect the environment in and around the Gulf of Mannar. If anybody finds themselves thinking more of saving "the bridge", they probably are not 100% impartial in their analysis.

Also, when I say that the ecologists must protect the environment, I do not mean to imply that it is only *their* duty. It is also the duty of anyone involved in the project, including the construction engineers. That said, the ecologists are probably better trained at examining the roles of different species in the local ecosystem and knock-on effects of changing the population of a species, than anyone else.

It was more of : If your future kids decide that they beleive in a Superior Power/God , what will you do?

depends on their rationale.

So ACFD is playing Kalaignar Karunanidhi in this thread, eh?

but whether rama and his band of monkeys built it is definitely not germane to that opinion

more on the scientefic reasons here
Well, it's this attitude of ours that pains me. I rarely see muslims question the flying horse or christians question the parting of a river. Each individual has the right to his own opinion, but while your at it you may take a poke at other religions to....

I rarely see muslims question the flying horse or christians question the parting of a river.

western christians have many different views. marcus borg and john spong are at one end of the spectrum (spong was epsicopal bishop of newark). spong has even argue for a post-theistic christianity. islam seems definitely more primitive, though there are a few individuals at the long end of the tail....

2) On the part of the Ram bakhts for ignoring the science that shows "Ram setu" to be a natural, rather than manmade, formation. For behaving like savages in showing their anger logic shouldn't be applied to faith. Logic asks questions and faith demands belief. They don't go hand in hand. There are a lot of things that science begs to differ, but don't we ignore science? Religion falls under this category.

I don't say that what they are doing is right, just that faith must be respected and not questioned. The stoning of the chief ministers house is definitely condemned, but when the ecologists failed to save the bridge they turned to divine intervention...

I agree that it was unecessarily divisive for the GOI to apply logic to the divinity or existence of Ram. However, I would hope that the more educated among the Ram bakhts would accomodate modernity, as for example Catholics have in rejecting literal interpretations of Genesis in favor of evolution, and question the chronology. Placing Ram in the bronze age, hundreds of thousands of years after the natural processes that gave rise to the "Ram setu", does not hurt the faith in the least. What does it matter if the actual Lanka was a small island in the Arabian sea off the coast of Gujurat (or in the deltas of the Ganges or Indus) rather than the modern state of Sri Lanka ?

http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=27682

belief in bible by selected religious groups

actual word of god, to be taken literally - inspired word of god - ancient fables, history, legends recorded by man

protestants - 40 - 48 - 11
other christians - 45 - 46 - 6
catholics - 21 - 61 - 16
no religious identification - 10 - 26 - 60

(for USA)

note that minorities of identified christians belief that the bible is a book of fables, and most are not literalists.

What is wrong with what Karunanidhi said? They seriously think Rama is a real guy who built an actual bridge to Sri Lanka? Did he get Hanuman to put boulders in the water? Where did they get that from - their Amar Chitra comics?

Ouch. Just... ouch. I know you said in a later post, Pravin, that you are equally distasteful of all religions but don't think this is the entry to mock them, but is it really necessary to ridicule people who might actually believe this, or even just place a lot of value on this story, and paint them and their beliefs as childish?

Karunanidhi? In one word, tactless. Then again Andhra society seems very different from Tamil society, so I don't think I quite fully understand this.

What does it matter if the actual Lanka was a small island in the Arabian sea off the coast of Gujurat (or in the deltas of the Ganges or Indus) rather than the modern state of Sri Lanka ?

True, but if a majority of the society believes that it was part of the ramayana, if its egologically harmful, and economically not profitable....
Should you still dance to the tunes of your atheist ally? That's the larger question.....

Well, it's this attitude of ours that pains me. I rarely see muslims question the flying horse or christians question the parting of a river.

as razib's stats point out, this is not true. but at a higher level, why does it matter? is there a race to be the most unquestioning believer that hindus will lose? will you belief system become less valid if fewer people adopt it?

oh, and razib @130, very nicely put.

True, but if a majority of the society believes that it was part of the ramayana, if its egologically harmful, and economically not profitable....

if the latter two are true, great. why is the first relevant? the shape changing deer and flying monkeys are fables, right?

tactless

Thank goodness! nala is back......

What is wrong with what Karunanidhi said? They seriously think Rama is a real guy who built an actual bridge to Sri Lanka? Did he get Hanuman to put boulders in the water? Where did they get that from - their Amar Chitra comics?

What is wrong? well one mans food is another mans poison. Just coz you don't believe doesn't mean you mock at others faith... Ask dara sigh if the character he played was inspired by amar chitra katha and you'll be lucky to find your head on your shoulders....

the shape changing deer and flying monkeys are fables, right?

yup and so is everything else that we fail to explain......sigh!

Just coz you don't believe doesn't mean you mock at others faith... Ask dara sigh if the character he played was inspired by amar chitra katha and you'll be lucky to find your head on your shoulders....

well, shouldn't it be, "just coz you don't believe doesn't mean it is smart to mock at others faith...." i mean, the problem in the first place are bestial things like dara singh, or, to use another example most of the world's muslims who decide it is appropriate to riot and get each other killed because of some cartoons about muhammad in denmark. the world is a savage place and we need to be realists.

All of these dudes are getting more and more senile every day. Karunanidhi seems to be going back to his glory days dissing Hinduism left and right EVR-style.

And Advani seems to have lost his memory:

"But people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned."

the problem in the first place are bestial things like dara singh

Sorry, razib i was referin to a diff dara singh here and here not the fanatic...

ah, ok.

I recommend reading this piece by my co-blogger at ptr which sheds some light on who actually initiated the project - an all BJP cast

dravidian lurker: your fables

dravidian lurker: your fables

sorry, i don't understand your point.

I recommend reading this piece by my co-blogger at ptr which sheds some light on who actually initiated the project - an all BJP cast

Thanks for pointing this out. I am not surprised because the BJP is pulled in different directions by VHP and pro-business members and constituencies. I saw this brewing earlier but it seemed like a fringe issue until the ASI report and Karuna channeling Dawkins episodes.

Razib,

The late Sikander Bakht - a BJP member of Parliament - and a Muslim, left the decision of faith to his children. IIRC he had two sons, and both of them are married to Hindus and inhabit that great broad rainbow hued area of observance that many in India would have no trouble identifying with. Not observant, but for a few visits to mandirs, dargahs, iftaars, and the annual Christmas party. A category in which you would find millions in India. The term religion is inapplicable to such a way of practice. Farook Abdullah's family has for generations been a devotee of Vaishno Devi. His son-in-law and daughter-in-law are both Hindu. He had a hard time accepting either of them to start with. But is known to have relented since.

PTR_Vivek, I recommend reading this piece by my co-blogger at ptr which sheds some light on who actually initiated the project - an all BJP cast

I recommend you and your fellow bloggers read this report by Neena Vyas (PTR should hae no problem reading a report by her right?)
Addressing the press here on Wednesday, VHP leader Ashok Singhal confirmed that aims of the VHP and BJP were identical. Both were opposed to the destruction of the under-sea structure described as Ramar Sethu, but both were in favour of the Sethusamudram project. They both preferred a different alignment that would bring no harm to the Ramar Sethu.

You wonder what the fuss is all about.

One of the reasons the canal was deemed necessary was to attract 'main-line' vessels to Tuticorin (thoothukudi). Many companies now have to ship their goods to either Colombo or Singapore and then have it transferred to another vessel to their final destination. The thinking is, with the canal some of the larger shipping companies will make a Tuticorin a regular stop. As for, the lack of business, with the economy growing at a 9% clip (TN's is even higher), there will be plenty to go around.

That being said, there is a proposal to build a deep-water port at either Colachel(TN) or Vizhinjam(Kerala). If either of those get built, the development of Tuticorin will be curtailed. But the sethusamudram canal will definitely cut a chunk of time/distance by obviating the need to go around Sri Lanka.

KR: Big european ships woould rather lose 8hrs than pay tarrif to pass the canal....

It is hard work trying to show that the daily insanity between Sunnis & Shia is equivalent to the sporadic mob violence in a majority Hindu country.

"Sporadic mob violence" as in a constant stream of assassinations, abductions, armed intimidation, arson and sabotage punctuated by two 9/11-scale attacks within the last 15 years?
The Sangh Parivar was arguably more lethal than Al Qaeda before the outbreak of hostilities in Iraq. It... or at least its more radical elements... still pose a much more serious threat to India's national security than Muslim extremists, Naxalites or any other terrorist faction composed of disgruntled outsiders. Salafists or Maoists can kill people and destroy property, but they are not an existential threat. They can't undermine India's government, military or industry. Groups like the VHP or Bajrang Dal do pose such a threat because they are closely connected to the Indian elite and composed of insiders with close ties to all of those institutions...

PS- One example of ship channel gone horribly wrong...

sporadic mob violence in a majority Hindu country

i ask this out of genuinely wanting to understand, and i hope it does not start a flame war. i have seen these websites run by christian organizations that compile lists of violence against christians in india (for example, this, there are others). is there indeed this level of terrorization of minorities? if these incidents are all/mostly true, then there is definitely not enough coverage and visibility given to this issue in the indian msm.

also, maxdavinci, just to clarify the back-and-forth: while i personally am not a believer in organized religion or god for a variety of reasons, my drift with the earlier statements is not that i take issue with other people's personal beliefs, i don't, unless they intrude into the social/political/economic realm, like they have in this case. (again, there seem to be a gazillion good reasons not to do this project, so maybe that is the right thing to do).

where Ram went to engineering school?

dunno... what political science school did the visually impaired thug go to in order to be the chief minister of Tam/atheist nadu.

"I mean is there anyone who believes in the Ramayana or Bhagvata Gita as literal truth and prays to an altar of Ganesh everyday (like my mom)?"

Read the Bhagavad-Gita and you'll be inspired. Just get a good translation by a native English author who won't wear you down with stilted language.

good post, anna. too tired to read all the comments, but i have a rather random question : if karunanidhi is an atheist, does the hindu law code still apply to him ( by virtue of having been born to hindu parents)? and if it doesn't, what's the deal on his two wives - legal or not under the constitution?

So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That's some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar.

What is wrong? well one mans food is another mans poison. Just coz you don't believe doesn't mean you mock at others faith... Ask dara sigh if the character he played was inspired by amar chitra katha and you'll be lucky to find your head on your shoulders....

Ask some scientologist about Ron Hubbard and make jokes about them and watch them knock your head off. What's the point. I didn't mock you. I can't help it if you take it personally. If you choose to personally believe in something I won't hassle you on it and try to make you believe otherwise. It doesn't mean I suddenly lost the option to make a statement about something that I see is fiction. I am not going into a temple and say Shiva is fake. But come on, I gotta be able to say it on a website as long as I do not attack you personally and am civil a about it.

Look I wouldn't be making bold statements about it until I saw these guys were attacking Karunanidhi. I was addressing those guys who were going after Karunanidhi's family. I do know about discretion despite my outspokeness. When I see crap like that going on, I will call people on their crap. I can't help it if others share the same feelings. I will muzzle myself in other contexts, but not when I need to comment on a group that is on the warpath.

IIRC he had two sons, and both of them are married to Hindus and inhabit that great broad rainbow hued area of observance that many in India would have no trouble identifying with. Not observant, but for a few visits to mandirs, dargahs, iftaars, and the annual Christmas party. A category in which you would find millions in India. The term religion is inapplicable to such a way of practice. Farook Abdullah's family has for generations been a devotee of Vaishno Devi. His son-in-law and daughter-in-law are both Hindu. He had a hard time accepting either of them to start with.

my family has known of people like this (e.g., muslim woman who still goes to mosque married to a hindu man whose children are raised as hindus) who "break the mold." but they're atypical as you imply. indonesian buddhists assert they are monotheists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia#Buddhism

that doesn't mean that's normative for world buddhism....

Rama is a very ancient God of Tamil Nadu. The first regional translation of Ramayana was itself made by Kamban (a non Brahmin, BTW) called Kamban Ramayana. The problem is that it is the atheists who are calling the shots and leading a disinformation campaign and Tamil Hindus like elsewhere -- have no clue what is going on.

This article is goes a bit in depth:

Karunanidhi wrong, Ram an ancient Tamil icon
http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6
P Ananthakrishnan delves into scholarly and popular Tamil literature that celebrates Ram and Ramayan

"The iconographic evidence of Ram in Tamil Nadu is too numerous to narrate here. There are temples to Ram that date back at least to the Ninth Century AD. Some of the greatest Chola bronzes are of Ram - a few of them are on display at the National Museum in Delhi. Some of the masterpieces are worshipped to this day, without interruption, from the day they were consecrated. Today, there is hardly any major city in Tamil Nadu that doesn't have a Ram shrine. Hanuman, of course, pervades everywhere. One of the biggest statues of Hanuman is enshrined in a Chennai suburb, where festival days result in horrendous traffic snarls."

But come on, I gotta be able to say it on a website as long as I do not attack you personally and am civil a about it.

cheers mate! no hard feelings.......
you have an opinion and I have mine, maybe I was a wee bit harsh......

167 · razib_the_atheist indonesian buddhists assert they are monotheists:

razib,
any insight into what's behind this modern fad for "re-packaging" religions as monotheistic--is it just that the modern West is largely monotheistic (when not secular)--cert. origins of West are polytheistic--Romans, Greeks, norse--or, is something else up that I'm not seeing....

any insight into what's behind this modern fad for "re-packaging" religions as monotheistic--is it just that the modern West is largely monotheistic (when not secular)--cert. origins of West are polytheistic--Romans, Greeks, norse--or, is something else up that I'm not seeing....

in indonesia officially recognized religions have to be monotheistic. it is part of pancasila
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancasila_Indonesia#The_Five_Principles

but yeah, in the west it is prolly to make it seem more acceptable. i read once that parsis played down dualism with the rise of colonialism.

I agree with freedom of speech etc and dont mind what he says about Rama

Mohammad was a drunkard (without even existing). Then draw a cartoon in a Danish newspaper to illustrate my point.

Try doing that in India.

Damn Lemurians who do not understand our privileged Indo-Europo-Scythian heritage!

The original Scythians worshipped Indra. Modern day Scythians in America have for the most part accepted Jesus Christ as our lord and saviour or are non-religious.

I personally also like the indegenous deity Shiva, he is the only indegenous god with balls. The rest are all submissive, fat, alcoholic, metrosexual runts like Ram.

he's baaaaaccckkkk.....

Mohammad was a drunkard (without even existing).

i was told once that islam bans alcohol because muhammad got drunk and couldn't pray once. so alcohol is banned because it might cloud the mind for prayer. this could be made up or apocryphal (mosque sunday school teachers aren't the intellectual creme in the usa ;-)

^someone please delete my comment above.

I agree with freedom of speech etc and dont mind what he says about Rama

Try doing that in India.

Damn Lemurians who do not understand our privileged Indo-Europo-Scythian heritage!

Scythians do not worship the blue-black skinned Ram and never have, Ram is a local corruption of the original Scythian pantheon.
The original Scythians worshipped Indra. Modern day Scythians in America have for the most part accepted Jesus Christ as our lord and saviour or are non-religious.

I personally also like the indegenous deity Shiva, he is the only indegenous god with balls. The rest are all submissive, fat, alcoholic, metrosexual runts like Ram.

fat, alcoholic, metrosexual runts like Ram

Hey,

I know I may be guilty of feeding a troll but ...
If you had said "misogynistic" I woulda understood.Where do you get "fat" and "metrosexual " from? Just curious ..

i was told once that islam bans alcohol because muhammad got drunk and couldn't pray once.

if you read the Koran, you'd know he prayed after that incident...to the porcelain goddess.

My two cents:

Every religion has a mixture of gods, holy books, philosophy, symbolism and MYTHS/MYTHOLOGY. For a scientific mind in the modern age, many aspects of these expressions don't stand test of "truth & reasons" . For a religious mind these various expresions of religion sustains him and following it helps him make a better human being. Both viewpoints have a role to play. As regards the "bridge" controversy I think the main issues are getting lost in rhetoric.

If you had said "misogynistic" I woulda understood.Where do you get "fat" and "metrosexual " from? Just curious ..

For metrosexual... I rest my case.

I grant you that he is not Ganesh or Budai fat, but he is still fat by god standards.

Indian godesses by contrast are sexy.

Hanuman was always my true hero in the Ramayana anyway. Lakshman's got my support too.

By the way, there is nothing weird about someone not literally believe in all the tales, but will pray to an idol of a Hindu God. The idol is a good way for them to focus on their prayer. People cry during tragedies on screen even though they know it is fake. I never understood the Jersualem based religions hatred of idol worship. Oh we evil pagans. Hell, it got so bad even Catholicism gets bashed partly because of the symbolic stuff.

Am I the only one who is feeling increasingly uncomfortable with the religion bashing tone this thread is taking ? Though - to be fair - all the religions are getting bashed .

179 · 6-4ScythianMale

I'm quite confident I've never seen a 6'4" Desi, not even the (seemingly ceremonial, & cert. tough-looking) Sikh guards at department stores in Hong Kong--is he satirizing this Scythian thing, or self-deluded--I try to be open-minded about this stuff, but my DbD parents (long-standing Delhi family) would have some choice words on this topic.

Am I the only one who is feeling increasingly uncomfortable with the religion bashing tone this thread is taking ? Though - to be fair - all the religions are getting bashed .

how long have you read this blog runa? this isn't exceptional. and much (though not all) of the bashing is rather specific, 7th century barbarism and burning people in buses and all that.

By the way, there is nothing weird about someone not literally believe in all the tales, but will pray to an idol of a Hindu God.

Yeah, a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the idea that 'one God' (that's how a lot of people see the concept of Brahma) can co-exist with the many gods of the Hindu pantheon, and that believing that 'God is everywhere' can coexist with idol worship. I was talking to a Thai Buddhist recently who expressed the same confusion, actually- she believed in the actual manifestation of the statue but not in a more theoretical existence.

And Pravin, I may have seemed too defensive. It's just that I'm a lot closer to high school--and dreadful 'lessons' about Hinduism during which my classmates would basically laugh at my beliefs (and this, coming from people who believed that they were 'chosen')--than a lot of you are. Honestly I'm still trying to understand the place of ritual in Hinduism and whether I 'believe' in it or not.

"I never understood the Jersualem based religions hatred of idol worship. Oh we evil pagans. Hell, it got so bad even Catholicism gets bashed partly because of the symbolic stuff."

Often Muslims and Chistians politely explain to me that statues are not God since God's existence is not predicated on a object made of clay, marble, etc. They just don't seem to get we are worshipping symbols, no Hindu thinks the bronze Lord Ganesha in his house is actually a God. I doubt idolatry has ever been practice, its a theoretical concept that has never been actualized in practice. I suspect even the most primitive man worshipped idols as symbols.

According to the Koran, Mohammad destroyed all the idols in the Kaaba to end idolatry. I suspect the "idolatrous" tribes of Arabia were practicing something on par with Hinduism. They saw their idols as interpretations of God and viewed other tribal idols as simply different interpretations.

I'm quite confident I've never seen a 6'4" Desi, not even the (seemingly ceremonial, & cert. tough-looking) Sikh guards at department stores in Hong Kong--is he satirizing this Scythian thing, or self-deluded--I try to be open-minded about this stuff, but my DbD parents (long-standing Delhi family) would have some choice words on this topic.

There is a branch of my family where all the men are over 6 feet tall, going up 6'4" and 6'5". I also have several family friends who reached 6'4" and others who even surpassed it. And, this is the kicker... they're all lemurians!

Rob #182... the desi grad student i corrupted about a week ago was a 6'4 sikh ....

I'm quite confident I've never seen a 6'4" Desi,...

A cousin on mine is exactly 6' 4" and guess what - we are Lemurians :-)

of the bashing is rather specific, 7th century barbarism and burning people in buses and all that.

Often Muslims and Chistians politely explain to me that statues are not God since God's existence is not predicated on a object made of clay, marble, etc.

the same arguments are operative within christianity. see the iconoclasm phase in byzantium. the iconophiles made the same arguments about flat icons that hindus make about their idols. and of course roman catholicism makes free use of statuary, and even processions of statues. as for muslims they idolize the book (as do jews in their own way). the psychology is the same, the exoteric garment simply differs.

Honestly I'm still trying to understand the place of ritual in Hinduism and whether I 'believe' in it or not.

Thats a tough question. Scientifically it may be easy to break rituals down as wortheless but I have met some pretty sophisticated educated, philosophical, religious Hindus who can put a very strong front against that line of argument.

I'm quite confident I've never seen a 6'4" Desi, not even the (seemingly ceremonial, & cert. tough-looking) Sikh guards at department stores in Hong Kong--is he satirizing this Scythian thing, or self-deluded--I try to be open-minded about this stuff, but my DbD parents (long-standing Delhi family) would have some choice words on this topic.

1. Punjabis != Scythian. They think they are, but they have at least 50% non-Scythian adamixture.
2. Dalip Singh (Scythian grandfather). I even know a couple of non-Scythian desis who are taller than me, granted you do tend to be short on average.
3. If you saw a pure Scythian on the street in NY you probably wouldn't think of me as 'Desi'.

runa, can you give me an example of comments that you are uncomfortable with? (apart from obvious troll like comments, of course).

rob, is your most serious problem with 6-4 scythian male his handle? :)

184 · nala on September 21, 2007 ... Yeah, a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the idea that 'one God' ... can co-exist with the many gods of the Hindu pantheon, and that believing that 'God is everywhere' can coexist with idol worship.

Why...seems perfectly "natural" to me, or at least no less arbitrary than any other religious belief--and doesn't screw with my secular pursuits (heh--including dredging ship passages, if evironmentally sound!). I have no problem with atheists, agnostics, etc.--Hindus don't think a "head-count" wins the day! (Well, some do, who gripe about "Christian missionary vultures," but--that's more just crass politics.)

rob, is your most serious problem with 6-4 scythian male his handle? :)

Allow me to speculate-- the issue is the bizarre, shameless, inane rambling by someone who lacks self-awareness. Even being tall, as special as that is, can't compensate for being a twat.

That deserves to be bashed. My discomfort is just that the language and tone towards religions/practice of is veering from what I find acceptable in polite company.

Good thing you were not here for the treatment dished out to Republicans here a few years back! I remember Republicans being called 'House Negros' and other appellations. Fun times, fun times!
On a serious note, I think SM has actually improved by the moderators cracking down on personal attacks etc. Some of us more wing-nut commenters now engage in self censorship which has led to SM becoming a more diverse and inclusive place and the quality of discourse has gone up.

191 · 6-4ScythianMale

Thx. for the response--what, exactly, do you have in mind as your group's boundaries, then, in terms of more "modern" population demographics (pls. excuse my ignorance, and thx. again for taking the time to answer.)

I have met some pretty sophisticated educated, philosophical, religious Hindus who can put a very strong front against that line of argument.

I am very interested in hearing what they are ? Ritualism tends to be the most easily disproven aspect of religious belief.

I have read Christian apologists (Vatican based Roman Catholics are generally the best), make some logically sound rationalistic arguments for various stances that the Catholic church holds if you ascribe to their base assumptions (soul, loving god, etc). However when it comes to ritual even they fall back on the old 'it is tradition' argument.

Islamic-reform movements like the Salafis try to avoid this problem by doing away with unecessary ritualism altogether (aside from what is written in their constitution).

The Hindu apologists generally use post-modernist soundng; non-rational and meta-physical arguements for ritualism.

@ 21,

Its the DMK. They don't like God(s). It's also a bit of a north-south thing. I don't think the anti-Hinduism sentiment of Tamil Nadu (Periyar, etc) would make any sense to a Northerner.

The above statement is not perfectly correct. Tamil Nadu is just one state amongst a handful of other states in south so cannot be representative of the "South". And I am not sure if the atheism is as prevalent in the entire south as it is in the ruling class of Tamil Nad and/or political ideology of the Dravidian parties.

a good friend of mine who is a devout catholic, and is generally very aware of and genuinely curious about other cultures and religions, read the ram setu story on bbc and was very amused by the notion of monkeys building a bridge for a god. so we discussed it, and i hypothesised that he found it unusual possibly because christianity doesn't have magical creatures/talking animals etc. front and center just as much. we couldn't come up with any prominent examples at least while we were drinking our beer.

dravidian lurker,

No major issues with any commenter( except the trolls!) but comments like :" Where did they get that from - their Amar Chitra comics? " & the one about idol worship "is there anyone reall here who ...prays to an altar of Ganesh everyday (like my mom)? " & "... i find islam to be the most abhorrent of religions" are the type that make me uncomfortable. I know that the commenters were trying to get a viewpoint across but some of the stuff is unnecessarily abrasive and possibly hurtful for those who genuinely believe.

My question was whether I was the only one who felt this way. If so, I need to recalibrate my PC /sensitivity meter :-)

as special as that is,

TMD,C: I hope you are referring to short bus special.

BTW since when is Ram not hip in North India, Scythian territory?

and i hypothesised that he found it unusual possibly because christianity doesn't have magical creatures/talking animals etc. front and center just as much.

in genesis there are allusions ('there were great ones upon the earth,' and the obvious allusion to semi-divine beings which arose from the copulation of demi-gods with human women). there is also part of genesis where there is a reference to the 'great one of jacob.' a close examination of the translation implies that another hebrew meaning was probably 'the bull of jacob,' implying that jacob worshipped an animal (bull) god (this is like references to 'washing feet' in genesis, 'feet' was a euphimism for genitals, which is why women are washing their husbands feet before getting to 'know them'). this sort of thing was scrubbed out of post-exilic judaism, though seraphim and cherubs still have some bestial aspects.

the same arguments are operative within christianity. see the iconoclasm phase in byzantium. the iconophiles made the same arguments about flat icons that hindus make about their idols.

heh. i was just thinking about that - another one of the moments in high school global studies that made me feel extremely uncomfortable.

No major issues with any commenter( except the trolls!) but comments like :" Where did they get that from - their Amar Chitra comics? " & the one about idol worship "is there anyone reall here who ...prays to an altar of Ganesh everyday (like my mom)? " & "... i find islam to be the most abhorrent of religions" are the type that make me uncomfortable. I know that the commenters were trying to get a viewpoint across but some of the stuff is unnecessarily abrasive and possibly hurtful for those who genuinely believe.

My question was whether I was the only one who felt this way. If so, I need to recalibrate my PC /sensitivity meter :-)

Runa - no, you're not the only one. I was thinking that it was because my skin isn't that thick yet, but at least someone else feels the same way!

Runa not everything u mentioned irked me , but you are not alone !

"Honestly I'm still trying to understand the place of ritual in Hinduism and whether I 'believe' in it or not."

The practicing Hindu is ultimately a yogi (someone who yolks himself to God by practicing dharma). The rituals are designed to help us do this. Think about the rituals: Raksha Bandan, Diwali, Wedding Rituals, cremation, etc. They all the lay out a path for how to behave and what is proper dharma. If your life is full of events that need rituals you're probably following dharma (getting married, having kids, opening businesses, etc) and if your life has very few events that call for rituals than you're doing something wrong.

But some traditions say that the rituals are unnecesary. The Bhagavad-Gita says that the rituals can be useful but the ultimate goal is not the rituals itself but to become one with God. So if you become a total devotee of Krishna, and follow him wholeheartedly, you can forgoe the rituals, and become one with God.

These are just broad outlines. Whole books can be written on the topic of rituals in Hinduism.

though seraphim and cherubs still have some bestial aspects.

ah, and the winged form of these may come form babylonian paganism (via zoroastrianism). take a look are pictures of marduk idols and the court which surrounds him. god before his angels.

nala et al.,
Thx.--I'm not naive enough to think there aren't any 6'4" Desis, just (1) can't say I recall ever knowing any & (2)I'm unclear on what this "Scythian" group is, really (I just know Scythians as a historical group--not sure what it means in modern context, anymore than a white person saying "I'm a Visigoth"--if I'm behind the curve, I apologize, but I'm open to learning something).

runa, thanks for the response. i think atheists (like me) get off easy because misanthropy is more permissible than discriminating hatred (like misogyny :-).

razib, i knew you would mine your omniscience :) about religion for examples, thanks! and seraphims and cherubs did occur to me, but they don't have primary importance in the most important stories/tales (at least in christianity today) and where cherubs are portrayed (in medieval paintings, for example), they are usually very human-like.

6'4 scythian is a joking troll people. just an fyi if you don't know.

The Hindu apologists generally use post-modernist soundng; non-rational and meta-physical arguements for ritualism

Yes you are right in a way...they get rid of all "negative rituals" as aberrations and retain "harmless" ones which can be argued for in meta-physical terms. Then comes what is the meaning of being religious ?...just closing your eye and folding your hands in your house or temple. Is that being religious in a secular way ? External symbolism is as much a part of religious and rituals is "Hindu" way of "cultural" expression your religion.

6-4ScythianMale = Rahul = SpoorLam

6-4ScythianMale = Rahul = SpoorLam

Nope.

(hmm i really don't want to continue with this lab report)... so anyway, one example where ritual doesn't make much sense to me is when it comes to Sai Baba followers. (& I say this coming from a Sai Baba-worshipping background). I'm aware that there are also Muslim followers of Sai Baba, but in terms of the Hindu context that I was raised in... even if Sai Baba (I'm talking about Shirdi Sai Baba here, don't want to get into Sathya Sai Baba right now) was a saint, does it make sense to pray to him (perform pooja, have idols of him, etc.) and make offerings to him? Why not just follow his teachings? Or did his sainthood elevate him to godliness? ...I really don't mind ritual (pooja) that much though, b/c I love the songs. I just don't fully understand it.

212 · SM Intern on September 21, 2007 01:14 AM · Direct link 6-4ScythianMale = Rahul = SpoorLam Nope.

Whew!
Rahul is cool; 6-4 Scythian Male is just weird--I knew some white kids at school who talked about being "followers of Odin," etc.--is the Scythian thing essentially the same sort of juvenalia...

holy crap, I wanted to say so much but so much more has already been said, ANNA do you really get to read ALL the comments? Of course I know your 1000+ treasures but they were topics more entertaining(at least the datings were), this one is provocative(in a +ve way), reflective, sensitive and interesting... good work, will try to contribute useful info in comments early on from now

Regarding the Amar Chitra comic thing, I was addressing the people up in arms against Karunanidhi's family(man I hate typing his name, gives my fingers a workout). If you noticed, I have never bashed anyone's belief in God in the many religious blog entries that show up on SepiaMutiny. But if someone attacks someone's family for a flippant God comment, then I will not show hold back too much in going after them. And if it just so happens that other people who read those comments happen to share the same beliefs of the people I attack, then I can't help it. When you see a blog entry about religious conflict, you have to expect some of the comments to be skeptical of your belief and I expect the same.
That is different from me just making the same comments on a blog entry by someone who feels the need to praise the glory of Gods and how much a festival means to them.

Another point. When people go on about how great God is or whatever, you do not see us getting outraged that we feel our decision not to believe in a conventional God is being questioned. It doesn't offend us when you say God exists. So when we say God doesn't exist, it shouldn't shatter your faith.

Personally, I find religion very interesting. And if a God did exist, I would be happy about it. There is no hatred for any of your Gods from some of us agnostics or atheists.

Nala, dont mind people who are condescending to you. Just throw the whole creationism thing back at them. That will shut them up.

Oh yeah, I do call myself a Hindu kind of like some of my secular Jewish friends call themselves Jewish. I think it's a source of some great literature and interesting philosophies.

And for the guy who claimed he never saw a 6 4 Desi, they are not that uncommon. I am pretty close to that height and I got a relative who is that height.

Pravin- I actually consider myself agnostic right now :)

Pravin,
I was kind of hesitant to respond to dravidian lurker because I wanted to avoid precisely this. I read your follow up comments to the original one and know what you were trying to say.My issue was with the way some stuff was phrased - and not just by you - and not with what was said.

So when we say God doesn't exist, it shouldn't shatter your faith.

And for the guy who claimed he never saw a 6 4 Desi, they are not that uncommon. I am pretty close to that height and I got a relative who is that height.

i saw a few in college.

@FYI:

Those arguements are exactly the type of po-mo nonsense I was refering to.

How does symbolically lighting a lamp, for instance, to get rid of ignorance lead to one acquiring knowledge in real life.

This kind of also the problem with astrology, voodoo dolls, and cargo cults. Just becuase you attach symbolic value to something doesn't mean it has any direct impact on real life at all.

I was very excited at the prospect of Hindus making rational arguements for a change.

Thx. for the response--what, exactly, do you have in mind as your group's boundaries, then, in terms of more "modern" population demographics (pls. excuse my ignorance, and thx. again for taking the time to answer.)

There are no boundaries only clines. Non-muslim Kashmiris (i.e. real ones, not Punjabi tribes like Gujjars who live in 'Azad Kashmir') have the most Scythian adamixture, but it is present even in South Indian states like Gujarat and eastern states like Uttar Pradesh. In addition to the geographic cline there is also a social cline with those with higher standing generally posessing a greater amount of Scythian adamixture.

If you want an extreme example consider the 6'4" Bengali film maker Satyajit Ray.

Anyways I am well known on Sepia Mutiny for taking time out of my busy schedule to make well thought out and serious comments relevant to the topic of discussion.

The SM Intern gets no pay and about as much freedom as a Sri Lankan maid working in the gulf. Out of humanitarian concern let us not stray from the topic of religion. Thx.

even in South Indian states like Gujarat and eastern states like Uttar Pradesh

to make well thought out and serious comments relevant to the topic of discussion.

216 · Pravin

And for the guy who claimed he never saw a 6 4 Desi, they are not that uncommon.

Uhh-that's me!
What % of Desi males do you think are 6'4" or above? Methinks you are losing a concept here, namely the distiction between "not uncommon" (e.g., c. 7%) and "quite rare indeed." (e.g., maintain distinctions and the ordinary language meaning of words.

last post should have ended with:
(e.g.,

220 · 6-4ScythianMale

uhh--0K--1st prize for not making sense & not being funny either.

razib in #70:

c) so trust me, faith that the promised age is coming will be in vain

That is spot on. Speaking of the BeyondBelief discussions, I found Melvin Konner's (hope I got the name right) approach quite practical and wise. The likes of Dawkins and Sam Harris may well be right, but they're probably pursuing goals that cannot be achieved. The idea should be to limit the damage caused by (irrational?) belief, not eliminate it altogether (probably impossible).

BTW, I think the Kalaignar is a first rate scoundrel not unlike many politicians in India. His so-called atheism and attacks on religion are nothing but laughable posturing, not principled stands - his target is deliberate and well chosen. As someone else pointed out, not a lot should be expected from someone who names his son Stalin - though he wouldn't be unique in this. There a lot of people in India who were named after assorted historical figures, including Gandhi, Nehru, Stalin and even Tito. Something to do with the leftist brainwashing a couple of generations were subjected to methinks.

Um...No Gujarat = Western state Uttar means`"North" .UP is considered part of North India

My geographic descriptions are normalized to our ancient Scythian princely states not the modern day replublic India.
---
Why are people so offended my my name ? If you feel less threatend I can change it to 5-4SensitiveJatt.

On the height thing: The median height for Scythian males is only 6'2", my father was only 5'11", I even used to know a Scythian guy who was 5'8 but I think he had some kind of genetic disorder. It's not like being a Scythian is a function of height, we also use other factors like skin color, athleticism, large ball size (males), large breast size(females), and professional qualifications.
---

I even consider the Tamil Nadu Chief Minister, M Karunanidhi to embody elements of the Scythian spirit. Lets stick to the topic. Thx.

226 · 6-4ScythianMale

LOL!
OK, you are just a jokester!
not in Rahul's class (or, if same person, need to work on this personality, compared to the Rahul one).
I guess I just felt intimidated by the fearsome prospect of a tall alpha-male! back to the pind with you, where your size will aid your horse-breeding or other pastoral pursuits. Luckily, us non-Scythians are no longer just "dirt-scratchers," so your future nomadic raids will be met with aerosolized fuel-bombs!
;-)

large ball size (males),

keep your balls, we bongs have our strength in cock length.

Other than the religious and environmental debate, the security aspects have to be looked at. With Northern Sri Lanka under LTTE rule and civil strife in Sri Lanka, would it be for safe for ships to use a completed canal without the LTTE attacking them. Also I read in a newspaper article that Panamax and Suezmax ships would still circumnavigate Sri Lanka.

This congress government is getting into some serious trouble along with its allies. I think these things are going to hunt them down - not long from now. I used to remember the slogan of "India Shining" from Pramod Mahajan and that partly led to the downfall of BJP. I do not understand in what sense Lord Ram became a "drunkard". This fellow Karuna looks like a thug to me. I am from the East. His behavior, look, manners are so bad that I feel like puking.

Yes - Tamilians are Shivaites. However, they have also deep respect for Vaisnavas. This ugly thug needs to educate himself - possibly in hell in his next life.

This ugly thug needs to educate himself - possibly in hell in his next life.

an unoffensive sentiment so long as he isn't hurried onward ;-)

Advani, who is currently being investigated by the Liberhan Commission for his role in the destruction of the Babri Masjid, is the one who's got "some nerve," for managing to pull of a line like this: "But people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned.”

When the Sangh is in charge, disputes over religious monuments get settled instantly with pickaxes, crow bars, bulldozers and cans of petrol -- Karunanidhi's grandstanding is, by comparison, perfectly diplomatic.

Razib and nand Kishore

Eliminating irrationality and stupidity is not an unacheivable goal..Its
a slow and tedious process unlike Islamic Jihad,Christian Crusades,etc( all dumbass religions in the world included).

condone stupid irrational behavior by just saying that \"it\'s all right as long as they don\'t affect me\".This ofcousrse does come as an incendiary remark but an unbeliever , rationalist will almost never suicide bomb, or lynch,or flay or sacrifice or circumcise or \"God\" knows what attrocity I left out.

Like the great Steven weinberg said
It take s a good person to do good things and an evil person to do evil things
But it takes religion for a perfectly good person to do things that are evil.

Not verbatim but very true.

PLese ,intelligent people,please discourage,ridicule and hence help banish the evil of religon

This Karunanidhi guy is the number one LTTE supporter in Tamil Nadu along with others like Nedumaran and Vaiko. I think he has gone senile in his old age (yes that sounds rude but anyone watching him speak will come to a similar conclusion). From supporting the Tamil Tigers, to attacking Hindi speakers, to denigrating Hindu religious figures and persecuting Brahmins, this man has done it all. He is disliked in Sri Lanka and lets hope disliked at least outside of the borders of Tamil Nadu in India as well.

Razib #19 was a great analysis.

I am an agnostic...
I feel Hindu... but care two hoots for Ram, and am sick of the bridge business, and dravidian politicians(I am mallu... sick of communism too), and the BJP and Soniaji.

I think that the Indian State needs to redefine what it means by secularism. Where it stands now is "We will recognize and help every religion on earth flourish in this blessed land".
That should really change to "Religion? Whats that?"

I do respect other peoples faith(to an extent). So unless there is a pressing reason for doing it, the government(and its representatives) shouldn't trample over people's beliefs. Given how things are now.

Ram could have been drinking somras and Vamiki could have been high on charas when he dreamt of monkeys building a bridge over the sea. Saying this doesn't make Karunanidhi any better than the schemer who wanted people to vote for him in exchange of a free TV.

Eliminating irrationality and stupidity is not an unacheivable goal

most humans are stupid, and they're born that way.

Is Sri Lanka of today the same Lanka of the Ramayana?

When I was young, I watched the Mahabharata serial with my dad-- twice. I loved it so much, my mom asked (half-joking, half-irritated) if I believed "it", as in, did I believe that Draupadi, Krishna et al existed. I blurted out yes, to everyone's surprise, including my own. :) Then we watched Ramayana and I was so outraged by what Sita went through, my mom seized the opportunity to ask if I believed IT happened. I said, "no", at which point she brought up my belief in the other epic and told me that if I was going to be a Hindu, I couldn't half-ass it. :)

That was my reaction too when I first heard the story. But as I’ve grown older I’ve learned to appreciate the story for what it is. It would not have had quite the impact it does had Ram and Sita lived happily ever after. The real tragedy at this point is that Hindus have taken to debating whether Ram really existed or not, instead of debating the merits and shortcomings of his actions. Such are the effects of colonization (and globalization).

Stories form an important unit of cultural learning and transmission, specially in the realm of ethics and specially in cultures such as India where theoretical learning was not so dominant. Stories are neither true or false, although meaningful. These Indian myths are *not* meant to be explanations of the world nor do they carry a strict normative message. When seen as such they can only come across as primitive. But the enduring appeal of myths and legends attests to the fact that they carry something deep within them, aside from the superficial and improbable and hyperbolic and contradictory. So, to come back to Rama. Yes, he behaved like a jerk. The story redeems itself (for me) when Sita refuses to go back to him. But Ram was not a one-dimensional character. He was also a valiant hero, he was also a yogi, and he was also trying to set a perfect example for his subjects. Let’s say he didn’t throw Sita out - he would still have been a jerk in the eyes of some. There can be endless debate over this, which is all very, very good. Except that there isn’t any debate along these lines any more. What we have instead is a rigid normative expectation of what ought to be. Not to mention the debates on whether Rama really existed or not.

Reason,

IMO religion or broadly speaking belief is not going away as long as there is enough complexity and/or mystery in the universe. The problem is organised religion that seeks to otherise anyone outside of it. I think if you are for freedom, you must allow personal faith. Granted, some beliefs are plain nonsense, but not every person of faith is a literalist or fundamentalist.

Karunanidhi is a twat, along with the other racist "Dravidian leaders"

In any case, are we any less delusional to expect politicans in India to act nice? The relatively better ones are the exception. Most are tyrants (although it must be said they do act rationally in their self-interest, they are quite good at cost benefit analysis).

I'm quite confident I've never seen a 6'4" Desi, not even the (seemingly ceremonial, & cert. tough-looking) Sikh guards at department stores in Hong Kong

A lot of people have already vouched for the existence of 6'4 Desis. Let me chip in with a first hand confirmation of myself being one. However, I do notice that the probability of finding other >= 6'4 humans is probably orders of magnitude higher here in the US, than it is back home. And within India, I have a feeling that the frequency of really tall people is probably a bit higher among south indians. however, this might be because of a biased sample. idk.

if all the 6'4" desis were laid end to end, would they reach across the palk straits from india to sri lanka? maybe we can solve two problems in one fell swoop that way?

This is probably new for those who are not aware of the different political parties / leaders in different parts of India. I know it's tough to know about all the regions of such a vast country and it is easy to generalise. (It is like the all Hindus are vegetarians myth..)

But Karunanidhi has been saying the same things for the last 50+ years.. It is interesting to see how theories like "Aryan Invasion" play an important role in shaping the beliefs of people. Rama is ridiculed as an "Aryan god" and the DK literature and propaganda says that Ramayana is the story of the Aryans defeating Dravidians with Dravidians being portrayed as demons and monkeys. It has taken root atleast among the people of Tamil nadu. No wonder you don't see much support for Rama in Tamilnadu.

Well, I like how this is playing out.. I think Congress is in a bind as it has to worry about the "Aryan north" which Karunanidhi can coolly ignore. And BJP is milking it to what is worth. Just point out Manmohan / Sonia / Ambika Soni are all non-Hindus and how they have denigrated Ram and reap the dividends..

So Sri Lanka was mentioned in the Ramayana? Cool. No wonder D. J. G. Hennessy said of the island: "History lies buried in its sands, and ghosts of romance lurk among its bastioned rocks, for Lanka is very, very old."

I have heard the Rama vs Ravana story from an friend I met once, he worked for a radical Dalit organization and claimed to have been the end of more than a few zamindars in Bihar/Jharkhand.

They used to have Ravana pujas in the jungles.

What happened to the land bridge idea between SL and India? It was going to have 2 lanes either way and a rail connection?

Thinking back, I have a vague remembrance that I studied some verses from the "Raavana kaaviyam" (praising Ravana) in my Tamil class when I was a kid along with "Kamba ramayanam" Kamban's version of Ramayana. After the DMK got hold of the political power, they have added such things into the curriculum. I have not checked now. Maybe Jayalalitha (a devout Hindu leading the offshoot of a rationalist party) would have taken those out. But generally the iconoclastic / anti Hindu / anti Brahmin ideals of the party are long gone. They are into making money (and that too in tonnes ) now.

The Hindu groups have not taken things lying down. They are quite active esp. after the Meenakshipuram mass conversions of Dalits into Islam (using gulf money) in the early 80s.. All the new temples I see that are coming up are for "Hanuman". to install the spirit of "Rama" into Tamils. :-)

I might be digressing from the post here, but have a question to ask of the ABDs on this thread. As a ABD do you feel that all the Karunanidhis and Advanis are responsible to you?

I don't mean that in an derogatory sense, and I am not questioning your right to voice your opinion, but do you think considering where you belong and that you never voted these people into office, do you think they owe something to you just because you share a common culture and nothing else?

An answer to the above question might help me in putting some social context to this post in particular and to this blog in general.

Karunanidhi and the rest of his tribe may wish the brahmins away. The brahmins will just take their business elsewhere. Many already have. Some have gone to the US. Others to Bangalore. Some even to unlikely places like France (me, because I was sick of all the tasering going on at our US universities). A few decades ago, one of them, Venkataraman, started an institute in Bangalore. Today's IT boom can probably be traced, in part, to this. He could have started the institute in Coimbatore or Madras, but he started it in Bangalore. So yeah, my answer to all that is going on in TN is that I really don't care. (I have Tam bram hardware--software is some mixture of Anglo, North-Indian, brahmin, global fusion).

Oh and the people in France really wanted me (because they had heard that we Indians are good at Math). And I think that we have earned this reputation because of people like Ramanujam and such --many of these people are Tam brams. Come to think of it, I can't think of a single 6'4", big-balled, Scythian who would make the list.

regarding comments of 6-4 Scythian: would someone who puts Gujarat in "southern India" really know much about India? Or perhaps just have a poor sense of direction.
I don't know about all this Scythian stuff-- at least in theory, their presence had too wide a range for descendency claims to have much meaning. Looks like everybody from Ireland to Bangladesh could find a few in their family tree. Just a matter of degree.

razib, "most humans are stupid, and they're born that way."

Thanks--now I understand why I feel so alone.

tb @ 249, i think you are mistaking our (ABD) opinions for a perception that we might have (substantial) political clout. yes, politicians are really only responsible to their constituents. but karunanidhi did make a statement that impacts the sentiments of all hindus - wherever they may reside. i don't expect my comments to require politicians to act ina different way - but what prevnts anybody from expressing an opinion on any topic, esp. ones that affect something that is so personal? and in any case, this is not much different than editorials in indian newspapers re the american government (on issues that both do and do not impact indians) - i think all the opinions should be considered - some may have high value for policy, regardless of from which country's citizens they come.

and i hypothesised that he found it unusual possibly because christianity doesn't have magical creatures/talking animals etc. front and center just as much.

There's Balaam the talking donkey in the old testament. Jewish and Christian scholars argue that it is only a metaphorical talking donkey, but if you're a literalist, you're stuck with the notion that God speaks from an Ass.

There's Balaam the talking donkey in the old testament.

Don't Muslims believe that Mohammad ascended to heaven on the back of a fire breathing donkey with wings? (Conveniently from the site of the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, which was identified when the Muslims had conquered that city, hundreds and hundreds of miles from where he actually died)

I can't watch the talking donkey in the Shrek movies voiced by Eddie Murphy without thinking of this.

Then a white animal which was smaller than a mule and bigger than a donkey was brought to me." (On this Al-Jarud asked, "Was it the Buraq, O Abu Hamza?" I (ie. Anas) replied in the affirmative). The Prophet (SAW) said, "The animal's step (was so wide that it) reached the farthest point within the reach of the animal's sight was carried on it, and Gabriel set out with me till we reached the nearest heaven.[link]

This winged donkey even had a name. He was called Buraq. And so Mohammad ascended to heaven on the back of an ass. Sounds like a Hindu thing, flying animals and the such like. But nothing really beats Hinduism's armies of monkey warriors. But a flying ass comes close.

I messed my quotes up. The bottom half of the last comment is mine. Maybe Buraq cursed me or something.

we also use other factors like skin color, athleticism, large ball size (males), large breast size(females), and professional qualifications

I will not feed the troll
I will not feed the troll
I will not feed the troll

Correction: Balaam isn't the name of the biblical talking donkey. Balaam is the gentile magician that the donkey talked to.

The talking donkey has no name.

I'm late to this thread, as usual.

Karthik:

He is an atheist and I am sure given the opportunity (if he has not already said so) he will put down any god.

Way late, I know. But it's not necessarily an atheist's goal to offend as many people as possible. You know that.

I think Razib did a pretty good job of explaining it all. Nice analysis.

Onto this point being made later on. My question is, when did the term for donkeys ever become conflated with the term for posteriors? Why are they both "asses?" What's up with that? I think the only reason the concept of "God speaking from an ass" would be remotely offensive or blasphemous is that the term can be used either way. Otherwise, it's god talking from a donkey, which is slightly ridiculous, but hey, donkeys are great animals. And there were probably a lot of them around in the Old Testament, you know?

I guess this would be the equivalent of God talking from a Nissan Maxima with chromed rims in Southern California. It'd be fairly miraculous either way, you know what I'm saying?

#99 chachaji
Since this thread is at least partly about Karunanidhi's person and personality - I've always been curious why he (and MGR before him) always wear dark glasses all the time, including indoors. It's one of the things about him that irritates me - irrationally, of course :)Anybody care to share some wisdom in the matter?

--> From what I have heard, both had issues with their eyes. MGR used sunglasses to build up his image while MK used it to neutralize MGR's image.

#244 Ponniyin Selvan
Well, I like how this is playing out.. I think Congress is in a bind as it has to worry about the "Aryan north" which Karunanidhi can coolly ignore. And BJP is milking it to what is worth. Just point out Manmohan / Sonia / Ambika Soni are all non-Hindus and how they have denigrated Ram and reap the dividends..

--> (My speculation)I think BJP and ADMK will get together, DMK and left will get together and Congress will get together with PMK and MDMK.

#248 Ponniyin Selvan
Thinking back, I have a vague remembrance that I studied some verses from the "Raavana kaaviyam" (praising Ravana) in my Tamil class when I was a kid along with "Kamba ramayanam" Kamban's version of Ramayana.

--> Do you know where I can get this ? I have been trying to get hold of it for some time with no luck.

#250 my_dog_jagat
(I have Tam bram hardware--software is some mixture of Anglo, North-Indian, brahmin, global fusion).

--> From what I have seen of SM, the caste identity seems to be hyper among tamil section(with exceptions, of course), lots of them proudly self-identifying themselves as tambram.

Divya #238... i love your comment, totally agree. sometimes i wish there was a tradition in hinduism of reading texts and questioning them like in judaism. (maybe there is and i'm just not aware of it?)

if all the 6'4" desis were laid end to end, would they reach across the palk straits from india to sri lanka? maybe we can solve two problems in one fell swoop that way?

hee. ...i'm off to call some relatives.

--> From what I have seen of SM, the caste identity seems to be hyper among tamil section(with exceptions, of course), lots of them proudly self-identifying themselves as tambram.

That would make me a 'TelKam.' somehow, it just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Is this getting sensationalized by misleading headlines/news by media ( including this SM post ). Karunanidhi did not call Ram a drunkard. What I gather from the reports is that, he said something like, if you believe everything written by Valmiki about Ram, then you should also believe when Valmiki said Ram is drunkard.

So its Valmiki who calls Ram a drunkard not Karunanidhi , who just used it as a debating point.

I don't know where in Ramayana Valmiki says this, it will be interesting to find out.

That would make me a 'TelKam.' somehow, it just doesn't have the same ring to it.

LOL!, well you need to popularize the term a lot more.... we can even have 'telchow' or 'telred'

LOL!, well you need to popularize the term a lot more.... we can even have 'telchow' or 'telred'

telkam = telchow. (uh, right? i don't know $hit, like is there actually a difference between the customs of kammas and reddys except for being born into one family or the other (and one dominating telugu cinema)). but anyway, neither sound very good.

The talking donkey has no name.

The donkey with no name. How mystical.

Aw, Manju misses Rahul. :)

Just want you all to know that even though I am 6 ft 4 in tall, I think height-ism is totally unfair and ridiculous...

lots of them proudly self-identifying themselves as tambram.

Well the differences between a brahmin and a lot of non brahmin cases can actually be , in some case, as severe as those between two people of different religions. My sis married a Telugu brahmin which ended in divorce. We are Telugu kamma. Geez. the differences in customs and his parents orthodoxy killed the marriage.

My best friend is a Tamil brahmin. But I notice a big difference between his behavior and the other Tamil brahmin DBDs who go to college here in the US.

I agree with Nala on the kamma - reddy crap. We have plenty of Reddy friends. I cannot identify a single cultural difference between the families. NOT ONE. Yet these morons have two telugu associations becasue they cannot get along.

Krishnan:

--> Do you know where I can get this ? I have been trying to get hold of it for some time with no luck.

I guess it's a famous book. isn't it available in stores??. You can try the book fair during Pongal in Chennai.. Or you can contact the DK folks. they would be more than interested to help you. :-)
I read their newspaper often and the sunday edition carries stories from Hindu Puranas (generally with a lot of ridicule). It's fun.

www.viduthalai.com

link

hee. ...i'm off to call some relatives.

That would make me a 'TelKam.'

Nala, about 'Telkam'... Actually, that correlation makes a lot of sense to me, as I have noticed that there is an unusually large number of very tall people among this group of people...

I agree with Nala on the kamma - reddy crap. We have plenty of Reddy friends. I cannot identify a single cultural difference between the families. NOT ONE. Yet these morons have two telugu associations becasue they cannot get along.

The only other difference I can think of is that Reddys tend to put Reddy as their last name and their more specific family name as their middle name. Yeah, not a real big cultural difference... it's more a source of amusement among 2nd gens. (But, in my family's social circle, it seems like more reddys immigrated as doctors and are filthy rich, whereas more kammas immigrated as IT professionals and are solidly upper middle class. but it's not like that's a big class/cultural difference anyway. BUT it does seem to me like reddy families in the U.S. are more westernized, maybe because they were richer to begin with upon immigrating/more likely to be from richer families in andhra. i'm just wildly extrapolating based on what i've seen among family friends btw.) While the Telugu community in the NY area is friendly outside of cultural organization politics, I've noticed people are closer with people of their own caste (and district/region of origin, to a lesser extent) than with others. ...and this is what I have to show for weekend after weekend being spent at boring Telugu house parties for most of middle & high school.

Once I asked my mom what the difference between kammas and reddys is, and all she said was 'kamma is k-a-m-m-a and reddy is r-e-d-d-y.' LOL. but she still holds on to some farfetched dream of me marrying a kamma boy from Guntur... haha yeah right. even her aunt, when she visited the U.S. from india, thought it was ridiculous that people still hold on to kamma/reddy, telangana, etc. feelings.

My aunt married a Reddy back in the 80s, and while her mother-in-law probably would've been horrible to her anyway, she has been so so much worse because of the caste (& class, my aunt from a rural background vs. her husband's family settled in Hyderabad earlier) difference ever since. And my first boyfriend was a reddy (our families are friends) and it was probably pretty obvious to everyone what was going on, and his mother still hates me. and i'm still scared of her. she's pretty close to the bottom of my 'auntie rankings.'

Nala, about 'Telkam'... Actually, that correlation makes a lot of sense to me, as I have noticed that there is an unusually large number of very tall people among this group of people...

unfortunately, my immediate famils isn't among them!

There have been some statements to the effect that Karunanadhi would attack any god as an atheist. The man is also a pragmatist....he has stayed away, as far as I know, from insulting the gods that are the primary focus of non-Tambram worship. The worship of Muruga, the various village goddesses affiliated with Shakti, and Shiva in temples officiated by pandarams (i.e. as opposed to Brahmins) have never been attacked by any of the "Dravidian Rationalist" parties. If anyone has references that contradict this, please let me know.....

uh, that would be my family. i don't know what famils are...

The man is also a pragmatist....he has stayed away, as far as I know, from insulting the gods that are the primary focus of non-Tambram worship. The worship of Muruga, the various village goddesses affiliated with Shakti, and Shiva in temples officiated by pandarams (i.e. as opposed to Brahmins) have never been attacked by any of the "Dravidian Rationalist" parties.

Yes, i think that's right.. That fits in with the local gods / foreign gods theory (mini version of Savarkar's larger version) .. Muruga is the local god whereas Rama is the Aryan god. I have read that Muruga is the local god for tamils with his tribal wife Valli and he has been absorbed by the Hindu pantheon by making him "subramanya" son of Siva and was given another wife deivanai.. plus all the important pilgrimage places for muruga lies within Tamil nadu.

The man is also a pragmatist....he has stayed away, as far as I know, from insulting the gods that are the primary focus of non-Tambram worship. The worship of Muruga, the various village goddesses affiliated with Shakti, and Shiva in temples officiated by pandarams (i.e. as opposed to Brahmins) have never been attacked by any of the "Dravidian Rationalist" parties.

yeah, that's what my father thinks too. non-brahmins outnumber brahmins by a lot, and generally only brahmins pray to rama in tamil nadu apparently.

...i still think it's tactless, and i'd like for the 'bridge' to be preserved as a cultural artifact at least (i kind of doubt that it would help trade THAT much, plus there's the environmental damage that people mentioned upthread). don't people on the sri lankan side make pilgrimages there, worship it, etc.? has the sri lankan government agreed to getting rid of the bridge/whatever it is, or is it exclusively tamil nadu's decision?

That fits in with the local gods / foreign gods theory (mini version of Savarkar's larger version) ..

Votebank politics basically.... DMK would not dare to demolish temples n statues of the various 'amman' temples in villages fearin a backlash. But will go on the offensive against the so-called-tambram-gods, as the tambram community doesn't bite. I wonder how most 'Pillayar' temples are untouched?

There is more to it, that Karunanidhi is questioning Rama because he is an atheist.

One,

He is trying to preempt any political capital BJP might get in South. Some of the RSS ideologue are now supporting the project, providied Ram Setu/ Adam's Bridge is untouched, or minimally touched.

Second,

Sethusamundram Canal Project actually benefits Tamil Nadu a lot, and he is not going let the possible economic benefits away in political musical chairs.

The most important Muruga (Skanda) shrine is in Sri Lanka where it is believed the God actually resides.

http://www.kataragama.org

Cant resist, Would i get 'TelKam powder' if i grind some TelKams ?
Ah, & ek TelKam vada pav dena ! :P

Ah, & ek TelKam vada pav dena ! :P

:-)
Telkam vada pav mein kya mazaa?

So is Venkateshwara worship considered part of Vaishnavism. And how come he is not considered an avatar of Vishnu? Because he was not reborn as a baby but just changed forms as an adult?

The most important Muruga (Skanda) shrine is in Sri Lanka where it is believed the God actually resides.

well.. the "aru padai veedu" (6 temples) are all in Tamil nadu. I agree that "kadirgamam" is a famous Muruga temple.. but most important, i doubt it..

The most important Muruga (Skanda) shrine is in Sri Lanka where it is believed the God actually resides.

http://www.kataragama.org

The most important maybe for Jaffna Tamils & Karagama's Buddhist devotees. For us Indian Tamils, Palani is the holiest Muruga site

The most important Muruga (Skanda) shrine is in Sri Lanka where it is believed the God actually resides.

Wat abt 'palani malai'?

"Telkam vada pav mein kya mazaa?"

Koi mazaa nahi :) but, I thought some of the trans fat conscious might like that.
FYI, they do serve vadapav with whole wheat pav.

The worship of Muruga, the various village goddesses affiliated with Shakti, and Shiva in temples officiated by pandarams (i.e. as opposed to Brahmins) have never been attacked by any of the "Dravidian Rationalist" parties. If anyone has references that contradict this, please let me know.....

The Self-Respect openly attacked the (non-Brahmin) Shaiva Siddhanta aadheenams and got good lip back from them. See a book called "Notes Towards a Non-Brahmin Millenium"

The problem with valorizing Ravana as a dravidian "hero" is the fact that he's a brahmin himself!

Quoting risible:

The Self-Respect openly attacked the (non-Brahmin) Shaiva Siddhanta aadheenams and got good lip back from them.

True. I quote below from an article on TamilNation (which is NOT an endorsement of TamilNation):

But that was not all. E.V.R extended his attack on Brahminism to an attack on Hinduism - and indeed to all religions as well. Mr. Taraki is right when he says that ‘E.V.Ramasamy Naicker , who is known as the father of the Dravidian movement in Tamil Nadu , was one of the most virulent opponents of Hinduism who ever lived in India.’ E.V.R threw out the Hindu child with the Brahmin bath water.

But the failure of EVR to recognise that Brahminism was one thing, Hinduism another and spiritualism yet another, proved fatal. His belligerent atheism failed to move the Tamil people. In the result even within Tamil Nadu, EVR's Dravida Kalagam became marginalised, and the DMK which was an offshoot of the Dravida Kalagam and the ADMK which was an offshoot of the DMK, both found it necessary to play down the anti religious line. [Quoted in link]

I suppose that one bathes in "Brahmin bath water" before applying TelKam powder on oneself? :D

The recorded history of our species (human) cultural identity probably goes back to - say may be 10,000 years or so. It is amazing how few so-called ABD's and most DBD's still carry the baggage of yester year and get into discussions (sometime vehemently) when it comes to my God or your God. Don't you think it's time for us all to grow up and get a life, and stay away from silly disussions once for all. Ther is a bold new world out there, and the poor frog can only see the rim of the well!! I am just saying !!

Well for all the Indian Tamil pilgrims I've met at Kataragama it's the most important shrine.

Amen, Yo Dad! Can I get a halleleujeah!? :-D

Or an equally fervent non-religious term?

Amen, Yo Dad! Can I get a halleleujeah!? :-D

Or an equally fervent non-religious term?

Human societies of every level of technological advancement have had, and still have something analogous to 'religion-culture-mythology'. It can lead to a silly discussion pretty quickly, as we have seen on this thread, but let us recognize that it does in fact fill a socio-cultural and psychological human need, and arises spontaneously in all human societies. People have, of course, fought over 'religion', so at some point it does become completely counterproductive, and let us oppose that, when it happens. Similarly, I would stridently oppose any organized religion that captures government and discriminates at an individual or group level, but still recognize that at an individual and social level, some good can come out of 'religion'.

So the sensible response would be not to wish it away or replace it with a 'scientific rationalism' (partly because that will not explain everything that needs explaining, ever) - rather, to acknowledge religion as a separate, but inescapable, and probably necessary part of human life. Larger issues (such as the Sethusamudram project) need not be hostage to such religious belief, but that does not mean 'atheists' of any stripe should gratuitously insult people's religious belief either.

Koi mazaa nahi :) but, I thought some of the trans fat conscious might like that.

you make no sense... (i.e. in case you weren't saying something totally random :P)

Well said (as always), Chachaji. :)

. Similarly, I would stridently oppose any organized religion that captures government and discriminates at an individual or group level, but still recognize that at an individual and social level, some good can come out of 'religion'

need not be hostage to such religious belief, but that does not mean 'atheists' of any stripe should gratuitously insult people's religious belief either.

I know plenty of wonderful people who are deeply religious. I know plenty of other wonderful people who are atheists. I'd hate to take a stance one way or the other and condemn either group outright.

but that does not mean 'atheists' of any stripe should gratuitously insult people's religious belief either.

But they insult / deride / kick against religion with a religious convert's zeal, funny that eh?

Scientific rationalism has never claimed to "explain" everything. I am not sure about the other counterpart!Let us not confuse Sprituality with being Religious. The intent was not to insult or belittle religious or (even) atheist folks. It is just that it is time to rise above these petty diffrences in opinion and look at the broader picture. Let us toast to each his/her own cup of tea, or shall I say "dosa", could we?

My apologies to chachaji(and if it happens, a completely unnecessary side thread on religion and its uses per se).

Human societies of every level of technological advancement have had, and still have something analogous to 'thievery'. It can lead to a silly discussion pretty quickly, as we have seen on this thread, but let us recognize that it does in fact fill a socio-cultural and psychological human need, and arises spontaneously in all human societies. People have, of course, fought over 'thievery', so at some point it does become completely counterproductive, and let us oppose that, when it happens. Similarly, I would stridently oppose any organized thievery that captures government and discriminates at an individual or group level, but still recognize that at an individual and social level, some good can come out of 'thievery'.

So the sensible response would be not to wish it away or replace it with a 'organized police protection' (partly because that will not solve everything that needs solution, ever) - rather, to acknowledge thievery as a separate, but inescapable, and probably necessary part of human life. Larger issues (such as arrest of celebrities) need not be hostage to such thievery belief, but that does not mean 'athieverists' of any stripe should gratuitously insult people's thievery belief either.

- Someone who enjoys an inordinate amount of glee from the irrationality that is (other people's) religious belief.

Razib@#19 in his point #2..

that being said, it is simply a fact of this universe that atheists are a minority, for the majority of our species gods do exist in terms how they model with the world.

I think atheists being a minority is hardly fundamental enough to be a "fact of this universe".

It seems to me that religion is just a hangover of the medieval ages (most of its principles and tenets, etc. were roughly from around time when humankind probably just achieved literacy or some sort of a widely prevalent linguistic ability, etc. and I don't deny that they probably were strategic enough for that time, and even made sense considering the reality back then...) But unfortunately for religion, the fact that its principles can never be changed was set in stone and this rigidness that it brought upon itself will make it more and more absurd and out of place as time progresses and humankind advances. This is even evident through statistics and although not yet quite the norm, I gather that atheists are a very rapidly growing group(probably the most rapidly growing group, if I'm not mistaken). Even those who claim they are religious now, I believe, would have been a 100 times more so if only they lived like 500 years ago... So, I don't agree with your view that atheism is universally a minority (in a timeless sense) or atheistic proclivity is privy only to specially designed human brains. And I am fairly convinced that, say 500 years down the line or something, "religion" will only come up while studying the historical development of human civilizations...

- Someone who enjoys an inordinate amount of glee from the irrationality that is (other people's) religious belief.

...it's fine that you look down on people like me or Runa, because we are "irrational", but the point of this post was respect. Disagreeing with others doesn't mean you have to mock them. That's been stated repeatedly on this thread.

I'm saddened and a bit surprised at how difficult that tolerance is for some of you.

#250
(I have Tam bram hardware--software is some mixture of Anglo, North-Indian, brahmin, global fusion)

There is no TamBram hardware. It is all software. Trust me.

I really do not understand why religious people feel the need to lambast atheists.

I will admit that I personally agree with some of Sam Harris' points (and also Richard Dawkins') about religion being taboo and therefore frequently immune to criticism, when literally no other area of thought is afforded that luxury.

I also agree with his retorts when very religious people claim that religion is the fount of morality in human civilization, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. Generally, the most highly religious and pious societies are the most intolerant, and the most immoral. His favorite example is Sweden, which is a secular atheist country, but took in far more Iraqi refugees than any other country after the American invasion.

I definitely do not agree with his notions on torture and a bunch of other crazy stuff, though.

For instance, I think the idiocy of forbidding research on human embryonic stem cells is ridiculous, especially when you understand the crazy near-Talmudic-scholarly approach to NP vs. "Presidential" research and federal funding (literally divvying a lab up, and everything in it, into "prez" and "non-prez" areas, right down to the trashcans and glassware, and insuring that no words, people, or work cross that divide.

And since I was a kid, I've always wondered how "profound believers" could overlook the fact that every deeply religious person in every competing religion also believed the same way. I mean, they can't ALL be right. And isn't it just slightly nuts to be adamantly sure that your religion is right, and no other? No one ever allows the possibility that, umm, well, we think we have it right, but you never know...

Note that I am not saying that religions are WRONG, inherently. But I do not believe that any human endeavor is perfect, nor should any organization or collection of individuals be immune to criticism or scrutiny. Because the one thing that I am absolutely certain of (and any objective reading of history will back this) is that given those forms of "protected waters," the absolute worst sides of human behavior quickly come into play.

You need not look any further than the American Catholic church's recent child-abuse scandals, the Reverend Jim Jones' totally nutty and devastating impact on his followers, the rise of the Muslim suicide bomber, the scizophrenic evangelical agenda for America (pro-life, but also pro-war!), the Gujurat riots, the Ayodha controversy, the Lal Masjid, the Golden Temple, etc. The list just goes on and on. In each case, deep-seated belief has given way to highly immoral and incredibly damaging behavior, all done in the name of religion, and purportedly, all therefore actually supposedly very very moral.

There are two problems here. One is the relative anger with which Karunanidhi seems to be condemning Hinduism. The ability to believe and speak as one desires is inherent in the concept of free speech. This applies even to politicians. If the people in the area disagree with the words of a politician, they should vote him out in the next election. Fair enough.

The other problem runs deeper, however, and that is Karunanidhi's, and perhaps many 'left' leaning figures in the Indian political scene, propensity to reserve the right to 'insult' religious sentiments particularly against the Hindu majority. Karunanidhi calls himself a true atheist. If this is the case, why was the Da Vinci Code so arbitrarily banned in TN when the small Christian minority protested. Karunanidhi, the same could be said in many cases(to a lesser degree) of the Congress Party, applies secularism very inconsistently.

I am an atheist myself, and certainly no supporter of the BJP or other communal organizations. I believe in strictly secular government, when it refers to the separation of Church(temple/mosque) and state. What I do not believe in is the hypocrisy which is so obvious in the major 'secular' groups in India. This double standard leads to such facets as a subsidy for Hajj pilgrimages, the ridiculous system of Islamic Personal Law, and obscene levels of control of non-representative Muslim councils over many of India's historical and architectural treasures. This leads to at least 50% of the problems in Kashmir, where the special status of the state maintains its separate identity in the minds of its inhabitants. India has an unfortunate cultural tradition of treating people as members of a group, while true secularism results from treating all people as individuals.

oops. last paragraph was going to be a whole other rant. Feel free to ignore that, or just move it up to be the third paragraph. :-)

#301 A N N A
I'm saddened and a bit surprised at how difficult that tolerance is for some of you.

--> To me, tolerance doesnt mean treating every hare brained scheme(which most practicing religions/sects are) equivalently worthy of my respect. If by refusing to treat them equivalently worthy of praise(or neutrality as the case maybe), I end up hurting fellow posters' sentiments, I plead guilty.

As for mocking the posters, my intention was to point out the pedestal that religious belief is put on is wholly unwarranted. It wasnt intended to mock the poster himself/herself. If I have done so, my apologies.

The worship of Muruga, the various village goddesses affiliated with Shakti, and Shiva in temples officiated by pandarams (i.e. as opposed to Brahmins) have never been attacked by any of the "Dravidian Rationalist" parties. If anyone has references that contradict this, please let me know.....

The Self-Respect openly attacked the (non-Brahmin) Shaiva Siddhanta aadheenams and got good lip back from them. See a book called "Notes Towards a Non-Brahmin Millenium"

Thanks Risible, so Karuna seems to have learned from his predecessors that attacking non-Brahmin Hindu institutions would be self destructive. It's too bad that the Rationalist movement didn't evolve along different lines...instead of Brahmin baiting simply attacking the idea of hereditary rights or ritual purity. But then again this was as much about political expediency as social reform.

On another note, I have asked my non-Brahmin DBD born relatives if there was much storytelling based on the Ramayana & Mahabharata when they were growing up...the answer was "No". But interestingly Ramaswamy is a fairly common name. There's absolutely no animus towards Rama, except among party ideologues who are considered cranks even by their relatives, and people will worship at Ram temples albeit not with the frequency with which they patronize Muruga/Shiva institutions. I look at the Ravana celebrations as performance art, it's certainly mainstream. And quite unecessary given that, from my recollection, both the Valmiki & Kamban versions show him to be great in many ways with a few character flaws (i.e. not a one dimensional villain)

I look at the Ravana celebrations as performance art, it's certainly mainstream.

Meant to say that it is NOT mainstream

I really do not understand why religious people feel the need to lambast atheists.

Neither do I .I also do not understand why atheists feel the need to lambast religious people.

I am going to bow out of this thread now because I think its at impasse. All that I can say is personally I do not hold with anyone saying their truth is the only truth - whether it is belief in a particular organized religion/a Supreme being/atheism etc etc

I am going to bow out of this thread now because I think its at impasse.

and THAT is what I was trying to prevent. I don't mock or disrespect atheists, I wish they would extend the same courtesy my way.

Why do 90% of SM posts turn into a Scythian vs. Dravidian thing? or Scythian-bashing by Dravidian lurker/Razib/Rob/Pind USA/etc?

Karthik:

He is an atheist and I am sure given the opportunity (if he has not already said so) he will put down any god.

Way late, I know. But it's not necessarily an atheist's goal to offend as many people as possible. You know that.

Salil and other atheists, Apologies. I was referring to Karunanidhi himself, not atheists in general.

I also agree with his retorts when very religious people claim that religion is the fount of morality in human civilization, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. Generally, the most highly religious and pious societies are the most intolerant, and the most immoral. His favorite example is Sweden, which is a secular atheist country, but took in far more Iraqi refugees than any other country after the American invasion.

be careful about quoting harris' "data." he isn't always faithful to the truth ;)

Post-Christian, but not secular, Europe.

All that I can say is personally I do not hold with anyone saying their truth is the only truth - whether it is belief in a particular organized religion/a Supreme being/atheism etc etc

some things are normative and some things aren't. if you're an atheist or a theist you think that god exists or doesn't, don't you by definition believe that your truth is truth and those who have other truths are actually wrong? you might give a probability value to your truth, but when making factual assertions there is a reality or there isn't. when it comes to other things things aren't as cut and dried. even if you believe that there is no one truth, you do believe in one truth because you are saying there isn't one truth.

on the other hand, the contentions about whether religion is "good" or "bad" doesn't have one truth, because good or bad is evaluated by the norms, the axiomatic values, you bring to the table. that's a separate issue, and to some extent orthogonal to whether god exists or not.

I don't mock or disrespect atheists, I wish they would extend the same courtesy my way.

Exactly! But being a bit hot blooded I cudn't resist the temptation of goin on the offensive against a few ppl in this thread.
Anna, I'm sorry for being a bad boy......

Why do 90% of SM posts turn into a Scythian vs. Dravidian thing? or Scythian-bashing by Dravidian lurker/Razib/Rob/Pind USA/etc?

Where are the moderators?! Anna? SM Intern? Its rather amusing to see Dravidian lurker/Razib/Rob/Pind USA/etc bash North Indians/Scythians.

Brown daddy is off to nob a few Scythian birds before the Dravidian blokes have a chance ; ). Peace.

Brown daddy is off to nob a few Scythian birds before the Dravidian blokes have a chance

it speaks to scythian female moral character that you have to get ahead of the line ;-)

Why do 90% of SM posts turn into a Scythian vs. Dravidian thing? or Scythian-bashing by Dravidian lurker/Razib/Rob/Pind USA/etc?

what? have we left as many as 10% of SM posts untainted by this important question? i am so sorry. thanks for bringing it to our attention, 6-3SpciyBrownScythianMunda.

Why do 90% of SM posts turn into a Scythian vs. Dravidian thing? or Scythian-bashing by Dravidian lurker/Razib/Rob/Pind USA/etc

Well...they started it. Now it's more of an inside joke, except when it comes to 6-4 whatever...I don't know/can't vouch for him, though the esteemed Razib thinks he's a sly troll.

It's not Scythian-bashing so much as a virtual manifestation of our collective eye-rolling (our = all of us inferior darkies). We got nothing but love for Scythians. Our love don't cost a thing. Even if you were broke, our love don't...oh, sorry. I'm still mad at J.Lo for python clutches. Anyway, it's now a cherished, long-running joke. And it's more "Scythian vs. Lemurian", this is not a Dravidian thing.

#304 Arjun
I believe in strictly secular government, when it refers to the separation of Church(temple/mosque) and state. What I do not believe in is the hypocrisy which is so obvious in the major 'secular' groups in India.

India has an unfortunate cultural tradition of treating people as members of a group, while true secularism results from treating all people as individuals.

--> I think it follows from the indian constitution which has explicit protection against hurting religious sentiments of minorities which, in hindsight, shouldnt have been there. That difference of treating religions as integral to the government instead of separate from the government is coming back to bite us. For that, a lot of the blame has to go to the religious elements in congress and other post-independence leaders. I think Nehru would have been more than happy to blast religion out of government given his dismissive view of it.

It is disingenuous of MK's daughter, Kanimozhi, to make this comment about other faiths not being in the way of development.Given indian constitution guarantee of protection to religious sentiments of minorities, a decision on development would have to take their sentiments into account.

We got nothing but love for Scythians. Our love don't cost a thing.

true, scythian women leave the wallet intact from what i hear. the only payment necessary is 8-inches of bong.

Razib wrote:
the only payment necessary is 8-inches of bong.

That is, two or three Bengalee men.

Thanks Risible, so Karuna seems to have learned from his predecessors that attacking non-Brahmin Hindu institutions would be self destructive.

Thats why he has no problems sharing a dias with Sai Baba, the non-Brahmin, but will give lip to the Kanchi Shankaracharya (head of a Smartha-Advaita monastery, thoroughly Brahmin). Ram they associate with "varnashrama dharma" the four-fold caste order, and thus "brahminism".

lc @273, interesting points. although, risible @322, didn't mk make some statements to the effect that he didn't go to see sai baba, it was sai baba who came to see him, analogizing himself to (the non-existent, of course) god?

For that, a lot of the blame has to go to the religious elements in congress and other post-independence leaders. I think Nehru would have been more than happy to blast religion out of government given his dismissive view of it.

Actually no, I think it is Nehru who is responsible for not pushing down reforms in the personal laws of minorities the same way as he successfully pushed down the reforms for Hindus.. He rode roughshod over all the religious Hindus in his cabinet and party. That's the reason for both Shyama prasad Mukherjee, founder of jan sangh (pre cursor to BJP) and Ambedkar to quit the cabinet though for opposing reasons. Mukherjee complainging against reforming Hindu laws giving more rights to women and Ambedkar complaining against the slow pace of progress. If Nehru had similarly pushed down the reforms on minorities there was literally no one to prevent it. He went by the advice of "Maulana" Azad. Also Congress treated the "regressive elements" of the Deoband (mentos of Taliban) with kid gloves both prior to partition (starting from the khilafat movement to later using them against Jinnah) and the sad part is it continues till now..

It is disingenuous of MK's daughter, Kanimozhi, to make this comment about other faiths not being in the way of development.Given indian constitution guarantee of protection to religious sentiments of minorities, a decision on development would have to take their sentiments into account.

Yes. It is hard to believe that she doesn't know of the problems that obstruct women's development in other communities..

it was sai baba who came to see him, analogizing himself to (the non-existent, of course) god?

LOL. In my book if you are self-solipsistic enough to consider yourself divine, then you cannot be an :"athiest." You are an onanistic sect of one.

Yesterday a Vaniyar body (a Tamil caste) issued a statement saying that as Hindus, their feelings were hurt, and went on to enquire why Karunanidhi launched his TV station on an auspicious Ganesha day, and not two days later, on Periyar's (the progenitor of Self-Respect) birthday.

That is, two or three Bengalee men.

ew! 2 or 3 8 inchers one after the other! watch out for drying glue!

Well...they started it. Now it's more of an inside joke

Thanks, Anna.

North India (Jatts, Jats, Rajputs) feeds (farming/agriculture) and protects (army) the country of India - so Karthik Rao Subramanian can concentrate on studies/education 100%. Without Jatts/Jats/Rajputs, Karthik Rao Subramianian (or any Guju/Bengali/South Indian) may be Kader Ali Pathan a starving South Indian/Guju/Bengali.

the scythian is the sword
the guju is the hand
the jatt are the arms
the cowbelt are the torso and legs
the southies are the brain
and the bengalis are the mouth and cock

327 · 6-3SpicyBrownScythianMunda North India (Jatts, Jats, Rajputs) feeds (farming/agriculture) and protects (army) the country of India - so Karthik Rao Subramanian can concentrate on studies/education 100%. Without Jatts/Jats/Rajputs, Karthik Rao Subramianian (or any Guju/Bengali/South Indian) may be Kader Ali Pathan a starving South Indian/Guju/Bengali.

Ahh, so that's why everyone is starving in Sri Lanka--no, wait, they have, uhhh--high literacy rates and plenty of food. Odd conjunction, given your view.
Sheesh--I'm not even a "Southie"--I'm just what Anna calls an "eye-roller" on this issue.

#324 Ponniyin Selvan
Actually no, I think it is Nehru who is responsible for not pushing down reforms in the personal laws of minorities the same way as he successfully pushed down the reforms for Hindus.. He rode roughshod over all the religious Hindus in his cabinet and party. That's the reason for both Shyama prasad Mukherjee, founder of jan sangh (pre cursor to BJP) and Ambedkar to quit the cabinet though for opposing reasons. Mukherjee complainging against reforming Hindu laws giving more rights to women and Ambedkar complaining against the slow pace of progress. If Nehru had similarly pushed down the reforms on minorities there was literally no one to prevent it. He went by the advice of "Maulana" Azad. Also Congress treated the "regressive elements" of the Deoband (mentos of Taliban) with kid gloves both prior to partition (starting from the khilafat movement to later using them against Jinnah) and the sad part is it continues till now..

--> I think it is unfair to dump on Nehru(especially with regards to khilafat movement. Wasnt he one of those young turks, till 1930 congress, who went against wishes of congress elders like Gandhi ?) for what was essentially the failure of the rest of congress to address the negative effects of religion. Nehru was (mostly) unquestioned leader of congress(with few snipings from religious retrogrades and contemporary congress leaders like Rajaji and Ambedkar) at that time but that doesnt take away the power others had of obstructing his measures(Didnt Patel's protege Rajendra Prasad slip in religious influences, contrary to Nehru's wishes ?). For someone like Nehru who placed such importance to democratic procedures and discussions, it would have been difficult to ram through his ideas in all spheres without participation from the party.

I dont think it would have been prudent of him to go blasting all religions from government from the get go(given religions' unholy hold on people). So,he started with the majority religion and proceeded to other religions.

I am still not sure why he didnt succeed with islam. Given his equal opportunity disdain, I would have thought he would have been far more successful.

"I do not hold with anyone saying their truth is the only truth - whether it is belief in a particular organized religion/a Supreme being/atheism etc etc
"

This is basically the crux of the 'moderate' religious argument against atheism. That all 'truth's are equal. However these people only add to the confusion.....it is like saying Intelligent Design is a theory just like Evolution. There is a big difference between atheist 'truth,' which is based on a systemic evaluation of the known universe, and religious 'truth,' which is essentially a conjecture on the nature of the unknown universe. They are in no ways equal. An atheist is not 'fundamentalist' if he claims that all religions are false, that is the very essence of his beliefs which he has the complete authority and right to express. This is different, of course, from going out of one's way to denigrate another...which is just bad manners.

Krishnan...
Nehru certainly had many of the 'right' ideas about secularism, at least compared to those that followed him. He probably had the 'right' ideas about many things...he was an idealistic man. However he missed the fundamental problem with the India he created...the government possessed far to much power over the ordinary lives of people. Separation of church and state becomes a much smaller problem if the government has little power to implement its control over individuals' personal lives. For example if there was no government censor body, the government could not even respond to demanding minorities by say banning the Satanic Verses.

He went by the advice of "Maulana" Azad

Jinnah used to call Maulana Azad 'the show boy of Congress'.

Ponniyin: I know you enjoy attacking the secular credentials of Jinnah based on his public pronouncements. Dig up Maulana Azad's famous speech of 47 where he is asking the Muslims to not leave for Pakistan and stay in India. He talks about us (Muslims) ruling them (Hindus) for a thousand years and why we (Muslims) should not leave Delhi because of our Scythian/Pathan/Turk/Central Asian ancestry and and so on. You will have a lot of fun with the speech ;)

Also Congress treated the "regressive elements" of the Deoband (mentos of Taliban) with kid gloves both prior to partition (starting from the khilafat movement to later using them against Jinnah) and the sad part is it continues till now

Yes, but it was Nehru's daughter Indira Gandhi who engineered the split in Deoband and Deoband now is for the most part irrelevant. So Congress Party under Indira Gandhi did play a role in bringing down Deoband. Next time I go to India, I plan to visiting Deoband. At one time Deoband was the intellectual hub of Islam in Central/South Asia. Now its mostly a joke with clowns running around dropping fatwas on a dime.

*plan on visiting Deoband.

"There is a big difference between atheist 'truth,' which is based on a systemic evaluation of the known universe, and religious 'truth,' which is essentially a conjecture on the nature of the unknown universe. They are in no ways equal. An atheist is not 'fundamentalist' if he claims that all religions are false, that is the very essence of his beliefs which he has the complete authority and right to express."

just as not all religious people are "equal" in their rigorous understanding/evaluation/knowledge of their religions, not all atheists are equal in their rigorous, systemic evaluation of the known universe - some atheists are atheists not so much because of systemic evaluation of the known universe or any real knowledge of the known universe but more because of rejection of religion and its conjecture on the nature of the unknown. i don't think atheists can claim their belief is based on complete authority either (but they have a right to express themselves)- it's based on incomplete authority.

Long long post.

I grew up in Coimbatore, TN. A cosmopolitan city. In 1989, I was 15-16 yrs old, I went to my friend's (Brahmin) house to visit him. A puja was going on, I didn't know about when I entered. As I entered, I was dragged out of my friend's house by his grandpa (who knows me very well) and left me in the streets because in his words my presence would pollute the Puja because I'm not "pure" and I'm a meat eater! That incident was shocker for me and I'm supposed to be an upper class Hindu :)

My friend and his father immediately apologized to me. Anyway, that incident left a really bad taste and mark in my mind. I never went back to their home again. We stayed friends, played together and are still friends. It made me understand the DK and other anti-Brahmin sentiments in TN. I'm glad that generation died with the "dirty" grandpa. I can imagine how people might behaved during the grandpa's times and the rampant discrimination that existed in TN and still exist. Funniest and ironic thing is that the same grandpa does not like wasting "human waste", considers it as a natural pesticide and will pour the filth to the coconut tries in his house and the whole neighborhood would smell shiit. I swear man, this is 100% true and only will happen in real life!

Another incident that affected me, In 1997, I was living in Caribbean countries and one of my friends mom came to visit him from India. They are Brahmins. One day, while visiting I asked for water, my friend brought a glass of water but his mom stopped him, washed the glass again and then gave me water. My friend was puzzled. She remarked, the glass was cleaned by the "lower class\caste" girl, refering to the African-American girl provided by the company to clean the house and keep it in order. Man, I couldn't drink the water at all. She was such nice lady educated lady and I couldn't believe it coming from her!

I think these are the type of people reasonable for the success of DK movement in TN. Personally, I think DK movement is natural thing to happen in society like that. Both the rationlist movement and the political movement had a strong legs because of widespread existence of discrimination and casteism. Otherwise it would never would have gotten the approval of TN People. It is true Brahmins are not the only caste to discriminate against lower caste people, in fact my uncles and aunts are equally worst and even my mom to an extent. But the reason they did that is because of their maligned Hindu belief system in castes and their belief in the order of levels(high & low caste) according to your Hindu karma. This is the reason, I think Periyar attacked Hinduism, Hindu gods directly rather attacking their followers. Periyar himself was a high-class Hindu but he thought the system is wrong, not the people following it. So he said let's change the system. He used shocking methods like, create a statue, slipper garland it and then break it. Erected monuments on the corner of streets saying "There is no GOD, one who believes in GOD is a fool and a barbarian etc.." Some of the still survive in TN streets and can be seen in front of some DK offices. DK-DMK also opened libraries in the neighborhoods but failed miserably. I think Periyar was brave and honest enough to go after Hindu system of belief rather than people believing it because Brahmins were not attacked during the movement only their system of belief. DK people did not attack other religions because those religions did not have inherent discrimination built into their belief system. So it was more of social movement than a pure religious movement. of course adding fire to it is the idea that Aryans had hijacked the language, culture, people and gods of Dravidians.

Karunanidhi comes from this ideology and irrespective how he used it to politically to gain power, he is staunch believer in it. He will not back off. I actually think, these kind of debates makes a society move forward. It is healthy as all long as people don't kill each other. Also it is unique to Hinduism that it allows all system of thoughts and open to criticism and debate. In fact, essence of Hinduism is about going after the truth not just god. It is oxymoronic to be a Hindu and not question God and reality of the world etc... In fact, by Nastika school of Hindu thought allows atheism and Samkhya and Mimamsa school are example of that. And two other religions to come out of India, Buddhism and Jainism are borderline atheistic and openly agnostic! So I'm sad to see debates(not matter out outragious it is) suppressed in the name of Ram. oh, I forgot all about the Bridge Adam! DAMN!

Ponniyin: I know you enjoy attacking the secular credentials of Jinnah based on his public pronouncements. Dig up Maulana Azad's famous speech of 47 where he is asking the Muslims to not leave for Pakistan and stay in India. He talks about us (Muslims) ruling them (Hindus) for a thousand years and why we (Muslims) should not leave Delhi because of our Scythian/Pathan/Turk/Central Asian ancestry and and so on. You will have a lot of fun with the speech ;)

Amfd,

Yes, I've attacked Jinnah because he is not "secular" by what we mean "secular" now. He is as secular as "Bal Thackeray".. But to tell you the truth, i'd have preferred Jinnah to have switched roles with Maulana Azad.

I know that all the regressive Islamic forces were with the Congress (atleast during the early 40s..) not because of any love for Indian secularism / rationalism but because of their valid (and later proven) fear that by partitioning India, Muslims would be relegated to obscure regions in the borders and their political power (that is considerable at that time) would considerably diminish by following the hare-brained scheme of Jinnah..

But there are lots of variables around that time.. Jinnah would not have expected such a solidified central power in the hands of Hindus ruling a vast country bulldozing the 500+ princes and neatly integrating those.. Afterall Hindus were not known for ruling themselves over the previous 1000 years.. :-)
If you read the various pronouncements of various leaders / western reporters around that time not many gave a chance for India with its million divisions to stay a united country after the British left..

327 · 6-3SpicyBrownScythianMunda North India (Jatts, Jats, Rajputs) feeds (farming/agriculture) and protects (army) the country of India - so Karthik Rao Subramanian can concentrate on studies/education 100%. Without Jatts/Jats/Rajputs, Karthik Rao Subramianian (or any Guju/Bengali/South Indian) may be Kader Ali Pathan a starving South Indian/Guju/Bengali.

d00d. jealousy ain't becoming.

p.s. andhra pradesh is the 'rice belt' of india AND hyderabad is rapidly modernizing, so you can take your phulka and stick it in your .. mouth.

"i don't think atheists can claim their belief is based on complete authority either (but they have a right to express themselves)- it's based on incomplete authority."

You are confusing their personal belief and the idea of atheism. When a person claims he is an atheist, he does not have to do any of the research or understand any of the science personally. All he has to do is implicitly agree that he believes in the process that we should shape our beliefs about the world based on systemic inquiry into its nature. For example my personal belief in Atheism is hardly the result of examining all the religions, and all of science in its entirety and therefore choosing my belief system. There are very few people with that sort of time. I form my beliefs based on a trust in science as the foundation of all knowledge. If I am confused about a certain phenomenon, I look in the scientific literature to find my solution. In this way it is similar to religious people, who may perhaps read scripture to look for their answers.

An atheist can claim that he only believes what he has observed(or others have observed and documented for him), and over that he has complete authority. A religious person can never claim that.

An atheist can claim that he only believes what he has observed(or others have observed and documented for him), and over that he has complete authority. A religious person can never claim that.

this is going into alt.atheism.moderated territory, but this isn't strictly true. some religious people worship god-men, who they believe they've seen manifest supernatural powers and properties. so that theism can be based on a factual observation.

Tambrahms from Madras(and I make this specific distinction because the orthodoxy is mostly geographically confined) are among the most segregated and caste-conscious lot. My point and I agree with Noname is that the DK movement was essential for TN. I'd give examples but it boils down to the same... barred from temples, considered polluted etc. The tragedy of the DK movement may well be that it was too successful. The posts of the self described TamBrahm in the post above illustrate the generic need they now feel to feel superior in any fashion at all. I don't know if anyone has latched onto the social networking site called Orkut. But a look at the posts in the Tambrahm community is quite .. educational. Anywho, what that means is that some of them(and lets be clear on this. I have loads of Tambrahm friends. Not all people are bigoted but I find that very few vocal bigots can give a group a bad name) continue to feel and, more importantly, act superior and consequently get actively disliked by the rest of the populace.

All of this was by way of explaining why the people of TN don't particularly care about Karunanidhi attacking religion. Quite simply(or if you are so inclined, 'simbly') because religion has been used for too long as an instrument of oppression.

#331 Arjun
Krishnan...
Nehru certainly had many of the 'right' ideas about secularism, at least compared to those that followed him. He probably had the 'right' ideas about many things...he was an idealistic man. However he missed the fundamental problem with the India he created...the government possessed far to much power over the ordinary lives of people.

--> Those were the times when government intrusion into ordinary lives of people wasnt considered to be that bad. In hindsight, there are lots of reasons why complete separation of church and state should be the goal instead of what we have in India.

#336 Ponniyin Selvan
If you read the various pronouncements of various leaders / western reporters around that time not many gave a chance for India with its million divisions to stay a united country after the British left..

--> Isnt one due now ? Amidst the general positive features on India, that book can garner good sales. :)

All of this was by way of explaining why the people of TN don't particularly care about Karunanidhi attacking religion. Quite simply(or if you are so inclined, 'simbly') because religion has been used for too long as an instrument of oppression.

Attacking Hinduism not "religion." The end result is not an enlightened republic of Self Respecters but the Christianization of TN. The Census says 7% but it looks more like 25%. The Christian channels verbally assault Hinduism with impunity, and why shouldn't they, the politicians do it too. But perhaps Hinduism deserves it. Its funny though that now the Brahmins have left, the "oppressed" continue to marginalize the dalits with utmost impunity.

think it is unfair to dump on Nehru(especially with regards to khilafat movement. Wasnt he one of those young turks, till 1930 congress, who went against wishes of congress elders like Gandhi ?) for what was essentially the failure of the rest of congress to address the negative effects of religion. Nehru was (mostly) unquestioned leader of congress(with few snipings from religious retrogrades and contemporary congress leaders like Rajaji and Ambedkar) at that time but that doesnt take away the power others had of obstructing his measures(Didnt Patel's protege Rajendra Prasad slip in religious influences, contrary to Nehru's wishes ?). For someone like Nehru who placed such importance to democratic procedures and discussions, it would have been difficult to ram through his ideas in all spheres without participation from the party. I dont think it would have been prudent of him to go blasting all religions from government from the get go(given religions' unholy hold on people). So,he started with the majority religion and proceeded to other religions. I am still not sure why he didnt succeed with islam. Given his equal opportunity disdain, I would have thought he would have been far more successful.

i think it is perfectly fair to blame Nehru for things after 1947 - 64. he was literally the uncrowned king after patel died and he forced tandon out of the congress leadership.. if you read my comment i blamed the congress for the khilafat not nehru.. he had this paternalistic / patronising feeling about the minorities which i believe was counter productive..

Attacking Hinduism not "religion." The end result is not an enlightened republic of Self Respecters but the Christianization of TN. The Census says 7% but it looks more like 25%.

The Christian channels verbally assault Hinduism with impunity, and why shouldn't they, the politicians do it too. But perhaps Hinduism deserves it. Its funny though that now the Brahmins have left, the "oppressed" continue to marginalize the dalits with utmost impunity.

this is right.. DK/DMK is mistakenly taken as some kinda lower castes taking over from Brahmins.. If you look at the leaders of the Justice party, they are all wealthy landlords / business people etc.. etc.. who are mostly from non Brahmin upper - middle castes.. and that tradition continues till now. They just pushed out the Brahmins..

"JAI HIND, JAI SRI RAM."

^^^ Wow rediff style comment !

hey bhagwan kya ho raha hain? SM Intern, Anna help!

^^^ with so many athiests around, i doubt He will help. :P

^^^ with so many athiests around, i doubt He will help. :P

The lord is facin an identity crisis! hey ram..... LOL!

"This is going into alt.atheism.moderated territory, but this isn't strictly true. some religious people worship god-men, who they believe they've seen manifest supernatural powers and properties. so that theism can be based on a factual observation.""

Razib I don't think you got my point. It doesnt matter whether they BELIEVE they have seen factual evidence of divinity. An atheist's facts are different because they must be based on accepted scientific literature.(i.e. the quality of which must pass a strict peer-review process) This is not the same as god-men identifying their dreams as reality.

An atheist's facts are different because they must be based on accepted scientific literature.(i.e. the quality of which must pass a strict peer-review process)

hm. i disagree with this. atheists can be religious after all, there are variants of hinduism that verge in this direction. and many marxists atheists believe in "facts" (the marxist idea of the end of historical determinism) which i really don't think have gone through the scientific peer review process. i think you're conflating atheism with scientific materialism.

I'm a bit of lurker on this site...never commented before, but like reading the articles.

Anyways, Anna, when I read the MT thread I was wondering how a believing Christian would feel after reading some of those posts-and now I think I understand where you were coming from....

But anyways, I was wondering...does "Dravidian" only refer to Tamilians who are non-Brahmin, because Rama is pretty widely worshipped in AP regardless of caste-even small non-brahmin villages often have shrines to Rama, plus there's several important Rama temples like Bhadrachalam, Lepakshi, Kodandaramaswami, etc...the Kamban Ramayana never made its way north. Venkateshwara is pretty much the patron deity of the state, and Tirumala is technically a Vaishnavite pilgrimage site.

That said, this Karunanidhi guy should at least be consistent-if Murugan is the "Tamil God", let's not forget that he owes his origins to the war god of the Shakas and Kushanas-why not garland him with slippers and break his idol? The chief god in the Silappadikaram is Indra-so does that make the epic Aryan? Plus doesn't Manimegalai convert to Buddhism-another import from the evil Aryan north? The DMK was also outraged once when the TN centre wanted to ban animal sacrifices on the grounds that to ban them would be against Dravidian culture and Aryan imposition-well, weren't animal sacrifices part of the old Aryan religion, weren't many of the saints that came from South who spoke out against caste and meaningless ritual against them? In fact, what is pure Dravidian culture?

As far as those saying that Hindu "apologists" try to cast aside any negative practice or ritual as an aberration..why does that make you an apologist? Or is the only way to not be a "real Hindu" is to go back to religion as mentioned in the Rig Veda? What about the various saints throughout the centuries-were they all "apologists" as well-many went against the mainstream in their thinking...are the writers of the Upanishads "apologists" for the Rig Vedic religion? Or do you consider the Upanishads to be outside the realm of Hinduism altogether? There is no precise date for the Manusmriti but everyone knows that the text itself has undergone several different edits and additions as well as deletions from various authors (As is the case with Ramayana)...so then why can't such things continue today-or in order to practice our faith today, we have to fossilize everything?

I don't understand why both the extreme right and the left go out of their way to try and portray Hinduism as this giant monolithic entity=one romanticizes it and the other demonizes it, and both try their best to ignore history as much as possible when it doesn't confer with their world view. What doesn't fit gets thrown out, and what does is often overstated for maximum possible effect.

Arjun, we all "know" that all things in this world are made of electrons, protons and even smaller particles. Have you personally seen FACTUAL evidence of this with your own eyes (unless you work in Fermi Lab or something, I doubt that you have)? Or did you read about it and BELIEVED it because you have faith in what the scientists say?

Karunanadhi is just an LTTE-loving, racist bigoted piece of ****. He knows it, and everyone else knows it. He uses Tamil racism as a platform to keep the votes flowing in. And his hatred for Brahmins goes to show how he uses caste too as an issue to sit in power.

Arjun, we all "know" that all things in this world are made of electrons, protons and even smaller particles. Have you personally seen FACTUAL evidence of this with your own eyes (unless you work in Fermi Lab or something, I doubt that you have)? Or did you read about it and BELIEVED it because you have faith in what the scientists say?

Dude, that sounds like a clever argument, but there is a very fundamental difference b/w this faith in scientists and the other kind of faith, in case you didn't notice. What you questioned above are stuff that you can verify as many times as you want personally if you really care/bother to... unless of course, the whole universe is a conspiracy and an illusion of some sort.

random, I wasn't trying to be clever, I'm not arguing anything, and I didn't mention religious faith in my questions. I read Arjun's post and those two questions popped up in my head.

That said, this Karunanidhi guy should at least be consistent-if Murugan is the "Tamil God", let's not forget that he owes his origins to the war god of the Shakas and Kushanas-

No he doesn't, Muruga is an ancient Tamil deity. You are correct in the sense that the modern manifestation of Muruga does incorporate Indo-Aryan Skanda/Kumara. Hinduism is a syncretic religion...

349 · Dio
In fact, what is pure Dravidian culture?

Dio,
I have a lot of reservations about DMK (and am not a "Southie" myself), but--they don't need to establish "purity" to support their overall claims-- maybe some make dumb claims to it, but the thrust of their arguement doesn't fail because Dravidian culture is "hybrid."

Prashant:

I don't think it is fair to single out Tambrahms. In my experience I've seen fanaticism across Brahmins and other upper castes from all over India. Unlike other brahmins, the Tambrahms came under humongous attack from the DKist movement in TN. There were some reform movements like Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj, Ambedkhar movement outside of TN but only in TN the new movement achieved greater success. The other Brahmins have not been seriously tested compared to that of Tambrahms in TN. So in some ways, they have to form more defensive posture compared to the rest of the Brahmins. A perfectly valid reaction given the heavy attack they were against.

"but the thrust of their arguement doesn't fail because Dravidian culture is "hybrid.""

can u expand on this, cause I'm not sure if I understand what is you're trying to say.

"yeah, that's what my father thinks too. non-brahmins outnumber brahmins by a lot, and generally only brahmins pray to rama in tamil nadu apparently."

that's not entirely true...Rameshwaram and Srirangam and other Vaishnavite temples still see a majority of non-brahmins that visit the temples.

But I do wonder what exactly happened that Rama is such an important deity in AP but not in TN...cause southern Andhra Pradesh was under much of the same kingdoms as much of TN...culturally they're pretty similar in a lot of ways.

And his hatred for Brahmins goes to show how he uses caste too as an issue to sit in power.

not really. brahmins are not a relevant force in tn politics, and inspiring hatred against them (except in reservation related situations) is not a predominant election issue any longer. but caste is a huge factor in the social and political dynamics of tn. conflicts between thevars vs. vanniars vs. nadars vs. whatever affect local elections much more, and erupt into clashes every so often.

p.s. andhra pradesh is the 'rice belt' of india AND hyderabad is rapidly modernizing, so you can take your phulka and stick it in your .. mouth.

Don't mess with roti (phulka)....India's best invention to date.

357 · dio
"but the thrust of their arguement doesn't fail because Dravidian culture is "hybrid.""

can u expand on this, cause I'm not sure if I understand what is you're trying to say.

I just mean that even though there isn't much in the way of "pure" cultures, ethnicities, etc. in the world, that hardly means that no "impure" group can't have a legitimate grievance.
Personally, I like to think in terms of individuals, but I'm just saying that DMK is hardly going to fold like a group of cards if it's pointed out Dravidian culture isn't "pure"--what culture is? They still mean something.

The problem with valorizing Ravana as a dravidian "hero" is the fact that he's a brahmin himself!

Yeah, great-great-grandson of Brahma too, I think. And I remember reading that his people were supposed to be migrants to Lanka from northern India (supported I suppose textually by his uncle Marichi living near Rama in the forest up north).

Unfortunately I don't have sources for you. Maybe someone else here does.

BTW, controversies, trolls and all, this has still been a very interesting and informative thread.

Amit....by using the term 'faith in scientists' you are in fact emphasizing my point. I do not have faith in scientists...i have faith in the scientific process, which is exploited by those scientists in work that is independently verified/cross checked/reviewed by other scientists using that same method.

Razib..maybe your right. This is my personal form of atheism...i dont know too much about the philosophy in general..only what i believe.

Noname @ #335

I actually think, these kind of debates makes a society move forward. It is healthy as all long as people don't kill each other. Also it is unique to Hinduism that it allows all system of thoughts and open to criticism and debate...It is oxymoronic to be a Hindu and not question God and reality of the world etc... In fact, by Nastika school of Hindu thought allows atheism and Samkhya and Mimamsa school are example of that. And two other religions to come out of India, Buddhism and Jainism are borderline atheistic and openly agnostic!

Right on. I think we need to tell eachother this often. People forget that in the past there have been movements within hinduism to give us the right to worship as we please. Only then was this religion able to survive.

I actually think, these kind of debates makes a society move forward. It is healthy as all long as people don't kill each other. Also it is unique to Hinduism that it allows all system of thoughts and open to criticism and debate...It is oxymoronic to be a Hindu and not question God and reality of the world etc... In fact, by Nastika school of Hindu thought allows atheism and Samkhya and Mimamsa school are example of that. And two other religions to come out of India, Buddhism and Jainism are borderline atheistic and openly agnostic!

Nastiks are technically those who dont accept the Vedas, the Carvakas are atheists in the modern sense of rejecting all supernaturalism, and yes, this is the very best thing about Hinduism, though there are some people who really wish the could implement heresy and fatwas into the framework.

The true constraints classically are social - those of jati (caste), which still constrain and oppress people in India. In the West, it doesn't really apply, so welcome to postmodern religion. Pick and choose from "tradition" what you want, and dare anyone to tell you you're not a Hindu for not picking or choosing something else.

looks like vhp/bjp finally have sympathy for practices in islam.

Amit....by using the term 'faith in scientists' you are in fact emphasizing my point. I do not have faith in scientists...i have faith in the scientific process, which is exploited by those scientists in work that is independently verified/cross checked/reviewed by other scientists using that same method.

And you still didn't answer my questions, and I actually have no objections to emphasizing your point - if that's where it goes. :)
And who created came up with the scientific process (the holy grail)? Scientists.

looks like vhp/bjp finally have sympathy for practices in islam.

OMG!! Are they trying to co-opt Islam? :) :)
Looks like the circus is in town!

the scientific method itself has a history which you can wiki. I was referring more to the concept that whatever you believe in must be observable. Religious people tend to think that whatever is not-obervable they can make up whatever they want about it. For example the past(before carbon dating) was hardly observable...so religious people of all extractions came up with fanciful theories of how the earth was created....or how humans came to be.

Richard Dawkins says "being an atheist doesn't mean I can't proove god can't exist, just that I put God into the same category as fairies, the cookie monster, and other things I can't prove don't exit"

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Behead_Karuna_say_seers/articleshow/2393800.cms
Behead Karuna, say seers

'' The punishment to Karunanidhi, he said, was 'shastra sammat' (prescribed by scriptures). "Shrimadbhagvat and Ram Charitmanas have categorically laid down that the devout must slice the tongue and heads of those who dare to defame Bhagwan Ram." ...the north-south divide is coming to the fore...Nationalistic fanatics vs the rationalists

Karunanidhi a rationalist? Don't make me laugh.

Behead Karuna, say seers

would it be ok to replace his head with that of an elephant, post decapitation?

is it appropriate to describe a pundit who is going crazy about this controversy as ram-pant?

Singhal explains all - Americans! Americans! Americans and the Christians!

Noname #356

>I don't think it is fair to single out Tambrahms. In my experience I've seen fanaticism across Brahmins and other upper castes from all over India. >Unlike other brahmins, the Tambrahms came under humongous attack from the DKist movement in TN. There were some reform movements like Arya Samaj, >Brahmo Samaj, Ambedkhar movement outside of TN but only in TN the new movement achieved greater success. The other Brahmins have not been seriously >tested compared to that of Tambrahms in TN. So in some ways, they have to form more defensive posture compared to the rest of the Brahmins. A >perfectly valid reaction given the heavy attack they were against.

I've seen fanaticism but never with anything like the intensity I've seen in Madras. I've studied in Madras and I've seen out and out Brahmin supremacists in significant numbers. I'll also say this though: The people I've seen who are most dismissive and openly contemptuous of such people are also brahmins. Also in large numbers. And I agree with you; the DK movement was too successful(at least in this regard) and brahmins feel pushed into a corner.

I was only weighing it to point out that the DK movement had a valid reason and a very constructive history of ensuring fairer education and employment. To ensure that downtrodden people had an opportunity to succeed. Whether there is any continued utility in staying with quotas by caste(The biggest TamBrahm gripe) is a legitimate question for debate but a separate and distinct one from a question on the history of the DK.

"DMK leaders make speeches on atheism, their wives are seen in temples the next day." - V. Narayan, TN Brahmins Association

Hello all,

It's nice to read different points of view here. I have been on a reading spree the past few months, and am currently trying to get my hand on as many different versions of the Ramayana as possible. The reason? Curiosity. I think someone had asked in a much earlier post if anyone actually 'believed' that Ram actually existed. I don't know if believe is the right word here, but I do 'think' he existed.

Whether he was an avatar - now that is the interesting question! It is widely known that the original play/poem has been added on to over the years. And I am sure as the legend grew so did the unbelievable miracles associated with Ram. But to think that Ram essentially came out of no where, and was created by Valmiki, and that suddenly Ram-fever spread like wild fire and captured the hearts and minds of Bharat Varsh is a very difficult feat indeed. Being as diverse as we are, it is difficult for an idea to become so popular and last for as long. Almost like saying Spiderman was created by Spike Lee and then worshiped by all following generations.

But what I find most interesting about the Ramayan, is the way in which it constantly presents opposing arguments. Ravana is essentially a Villian, but he is a devout Brahmin, does Tapasya and does not violate Sita - he wants to win her. Very strange for a villain. Rama is the wronged one, his wife is abducted, and he does save her, but the way he treats her afterwards is not what one would expect a true 'hero' to do. Even avatars have their faults!! This is what makes the story so fascinating :) Noone is perfect - not even Ram!

I found the Lyrics of a song in the Hindi Movie Swades especially interesting, and thats what got me started on my pouring over different versions of the Ramayan :
"Man Se Ravan Jo Nikale, Ram Uske Man Mein Hain.." (It would be lost in translation if I explained it in English, or would just appear awkward)

Sri Lanka and India were actually joined as one land mass before the last glacial flooding, so perhaps the Rama Sethu is a remnant of some land formation from back then. Regardless of whether it is holy or not - isn't it rather amazing that it even exists? Naturally occurring land bridges are a rare enough commodity that I would think they are worth saving anyway. Just my opinion.

I respect those who chose not to follow any faith. At least they have gone through the process of thinking about religion and then decided it is not for them. Mr. K made some rather strong comments on Rama, and I just find that surprising, it just gave me the impression that he is not very tolerant of Ram - Bhakts. But the real shocker was the affidavit filed in the Supreme Court (by the ASI). Almost like they went out of their way.

Dravidian means man who worship the Super Naturals Sea Sky and Mountain. Dravidians have no human god. So Dravidians have all rights to dig the canal.

When I was young, I watched the Mahabharata serial with my dad-- twice. I loved it so much, my mom asked (half-joking, half-irritated) if I believed "it", as in, did I believe that Draupadi, Krishna et al existed. I blurted out yes, to everyone's surprise, including my own. :) Then we watched Ramayana and I was so outraged by what Sita went through, my mom seized the opportunity to ask if I believed IT happened. I said, "no", at which point she brought up my belief in the other epic and told me that if I was going to be a Hindu, I couldn't half-ass it. :)

Actually, the beauty of Hinduism is that you CAN half ass it.

You don't have to be a believer to support the ram setu theory. The fact that there is a land mass connecting the island of sri lanka to MAINLAND is enough proof that the fictional or non-fictional ramayana is of much relevance. But the issue isn't religious neither environmental.

When you inherit a post of power and attention, you are deemed with responsiblity to look after the people. By hurling around your personal beliefs, you have not only made yourself look like a fool but also have autmatically dethroned yourself.

Tamil Nadu's CM should be asked to resign and upon resistance should be kicked out of the country and sent to LANKA(where he belongs) with the help of the military.

correction..this setu is not in south India - Shri Lanka but from Europe to UK~!