Given the ferocity of some of the anti-IraqWar, anti-Bush, anti-Military, anti-AllWar, anti-GOP, anti-whatever comments on SM of late, I’ll implore y’all to keep the comments civil lest deletions / bannings / and comment-closures swiftly follow.

Word. It is possible to be all of the above, with the exception of "anti-Military", but that's another post, for another time on another, more apposite blog; I hesitate to even leave this comment, lest it derail what I will inevitably end up moderating. Please just keep in mind that the vast majority of people who follow SM lurk, and don't comment. That means, we don't know their stories. THAT means, I'm not the only one with active-duty family members, believe it or not. Shocker-- desis join the military, too.

Also, VVV, you forgot ACK. And SCK. Or was I the only mutineer feeling Kerala up, back in the good old days, when IRC was my version of Facebook and everyone fought over who got to be called "pichathi"? ;)

This guy seems pretty impressive. I could care less what our political differences are. I doubt many of us who bash Bush mericlessly are intolerant of him just because of ideology. We feel Bush is an idiot and Cheney is a corrupt coward who pretty much indulges in backroom games to get things done. This guy Sameer is not even in the same league. He has traveled to Europe DJing. Has accomplished something really noteworthy technology related. Now he joins the military. Not even in the same ballpark as the people we bash.

Sameer seems like an exceptionally bright individual who has accomplished tangible things and seems to live life to the fullest. Gotta respect that regardless of his politics. He would have to be a big time racist for me to even comment on his politics. In one of those links, he looks really different with long hair and glasses compared to the head shot we have here. And as far as the military thing, he joined on his own knowing well the risks he face. I doubt most of us will have any problems with that.

I was at the Backpack Hostel in Budapest, Hungary as I watched the towers fall. I sat there as a fellow backpacker bounced up and down on the sofa in glee

my love for Eastern and Central Europe

i cannot do better than to quote mr. kobayashi (who unfortunately does not comment any more):

I don't admire the atrocities taking place in that uniform (and you better believe they are atrocities), I don't admire the "I raided Fallujah because I was just doing my job."

However, I do feel a great deal of compassion for young people who have bought into the narrative of "defending their country," just as I do for the young people in Iraq who have convinced themselves that they are "defending their culture." I'm certainly not going to feel awe for a guy *simply* because he puts on an American military uniform and obeys orders. What those orders are makes all the difference in the world.

I do wonder if people on these boards would find the Americans so heroic if they were occupying Delhi and had just stoked a civil war there. And "collaterally" killed a few grandmothers in the course of their duties. Who it hurts can sometimes make all the difference in our thinking.

sin It will not make any difference in my thinking, because I will allways put America first, before any other country. "Semper Fi" officer canidate Parekh.

"America first" no matter what the policies are? to quote mr. kobayashi from the above post:

"What those orders are makes all the difference in the world."

there are many different reasons that people go into the military. pillaging and raping fallujah isn't the primary reason for most people, i think. the "you're either with us or against" attitude gets tiresome for a lot of people, whether it is promoted by the self-righteous left or the jingoistic right.

to the self-righteous left: many of you are children of relative privilege. remember that a disproportionate number of those who enlist in the military do so because it is one of the few avenues of upward mobility in many sectors of our society. ask yourself why a disproportionate number of blacks and rural whites enlist.

to the jingoistic-right, i would ask you to question some of your stances and reflect if you are actually doing right by this nation and its past and future, as opposed to fueling your sense of being "tough" and backing your own political party come hell or high water.

we live in a complex world where our choices are going to be based with the cards that the fates have dealt. too often the standard mode of argument is to put words into the mouths of our imaginary interlocutors instead of asking them why they do as they do. it feels so good flinging mud and engaging in a food fight that people don't grapple with the complexities of the utility calculations which are at the heart of these debates.

Right on, man.

The crowd was the usual mix of students, faculty, and retired alumni. After the talk, a young professor stood. "How can you support the presence of ROTC at a place like Dartmouth?" she asked. "It will militarize the campus and threaten our culture of tolerance."

"Wrong," replied Ricks. "It will liberalize the military." He explained that in a democracy, the military should be representative of the people. It should reflect the best of American society, not stand apart from it.

Ricks used words such as "duty" and "honor" without cynicism, something I'd not often heard at Dartmouth.

-Nate Fick, One Bullet Away, The Making of a Marine Officer.

All of those signing up for USMC OCS should read this (as I'm positive Sameer must have).

Well said, Razib.

I grew up with a (brown) kid, grew apart as we got older though our parents are still friends, and last year he went off to West Point. When asked by people why he was joining the military (coming from a pretty solid middle/upper middle class background, and having gone to a good public high school in NYC), he would say something like, 'For you, and for your family.' While I admire his bravery, I also don't understand his motivations, like I just don't understand the motivations of Sameer Parekh, or even Rajesh Harricharan above. I still haven't quite reconciled my brownness with being American, despite being a naturalized citizen (before anyone questions me on that, all I have to say is, insurance benefits, bitch!). Probably because I moved to the U.S. when I was 8, and have lived in minority/immigrant-dominated communities and gone to very diverse schools since (well until I went off to college). I think it's strange myself that I haven't been able to reconcile brownness with being American, because I feel like you actually see more assimilation, of sorts, in areas where certain ethnic groups are concentrated, e.g. there's more variety to what being brown means in the area, e.g. I know brown police officers, brown bank tellers, brown boys who got kicked out of school for dealing -- not the typical 'model minority' thing. But personally, I just don't feel any particular pride in being an American national. I'll defend American society to folks in India who like to brag about how great India is and how much America sucks, blah blah blah, just as I will defend Indian culture when I feel that it is being unfairly picked on. Not because I identify strongly and 'proudly' with either identity, but because I just call it like I see it. I think it's horrible that anyone would take joy in the death of thousands of innocents, like in the example Sameer talks about, but that happens among crazy ass Americans too.

Joining any country's military/any movement requires some sort of group identification, and that really depends on an individual's outlook on life. Like I used to see myself as being defined by being brown and being female, but I don't really identify with either group strongly anymore... other things more specific to me have become more important.

Oh and I'm aware that going to West Point isn't quite the same as a high school senior immediately enlisting in the armed forces, but my point is that people were perplexed by why he eventually wanted to join the military

Disproportionally, African Americans and Hispanics join military.

Same with working class white.

It even goes back to draft days - when poor kids could not afford to get college deferments.

There about thousands of green cards holders are in military right now for many reasons - social status up move, fast track citizenship.

USA has had a long arrangement with Phillipines them serving US military, same as Gurkhas has with India and UK.

Often these days, one comes across obituaries from South American green card holders.

to the self-righteous left: many of you are children of relative privilege. remember that a disproportionate number of those who enlist in the military do so because it is one of the few avenues of upward mobility in many sectors of our society. ask yourself why a disproportionate number of blacks and rural whites enlist.

hmm, most of the liberal folks i know who come from privileged backgrounds actually hate the military as an institution even more because of this... they tend not to take it out on actual soldiers (though i'm guessing they'd probably be harsher on rural whites than on blacks). e.g. there's been controversy about the military using public schools' databases to send recruitment mail to their students. (my high school had a form that we signed if we didn't want to release our info, but apparently some people still got sent the mail). basically these recruitment tactics piss these self-righteous lefties even more. kind of a 'hate the sin, love the sinner' thing.

Information on US military demographics

A news article

Heritage foundation data.

Army's demographics website with links to other services and specifics on minorities.

spent some time in Arizona (including a stint with the Romney campaign), and his blog gives us his next big adventure — he’s joining the Marines

Why didn't he take the example of Mitt's sons (oh, what a band of brothers!) and serve the country by helping him get elected?

my point basically is, for those who have many other options (like the guy above), and are generous and imbued with a need to help society in general(i.e. something bigger than themselves), why do they choose to do so by joining the marines, rather than by joining the peace corps, or starting a clinic, or volunteering is less privileged neighborhoods, or even joining the national guards. There must be more going on there (and i am genuinely curious). one reason, i'm pretty confident,is that the marines (or any armed forces for that matter)more than any other organization build a strong community, since such forces thrive on group solidarity. this in turn fulfills (and uses) a vital human instinct. so i can see the attraction (religious communities and cults, including one's we don't like very much have similar dynamics). but is there anything else?

as someone who spent a lot of time setting up/taking down (and setting up/taking down, repeat ad nauseum) various things for OCS as MCB Quantico (as an enlisted marine who was demoted to grounds maintenance), i have to say i don't envy the guy. he's not in for anything fun.

remember that a disproportionate number of those who enlist in the military do so because it is one of the few avenues of upward mobility in many sectors of our society. ask yourself why a disproportionate number of blacks and rural whites enlist.
It even goes back to draft days - when poor kids could not afford to get college deferments.

This has not always been the case. Lets remember that one of the reasons that the draft was initiated during WW1 was because the military had a disproportionately high number of people of high SES. There was a concern that if there were too many casualties then there will not be enough future leaders, captains of industries, professionals. So the draft was one way to get the poor/low SES people to enlist.

my point basically is, for those who have many other options (like the guy above), and are generous and imbued with a need to help society in general(i.e. something bigger than themselves), why do they choose to do so by joining the marines, rather than by joining the peace corps, or starting a clinic, or volunteering is less privileged neighborhoods, or even joining the national guards.

Many in the special operations community are such individuals. From what I've read/heard, it's all really about what the individual wants to do and where they seem happy. Check out the reference I made above to Nathaniel Fick's One Bullet Away: Making of a Marine Officer. He was an Ivy league grad that went to USMC OCS and eventually lead a Marine Recon Platoon in Iraq. His books is very candid and straight forward.

Each volunteer job function (peace corps, tutoring, Military, etc) caters to strengths of individuals. Many in the military are in for the peer-mentoring aspect, leadership training, ability to discipline themselves into being a more competant person (as in task execution) etc.

Issac, why were you demoted?

>Issac, why were you demoted?
"misconduct". i couldn't, in good conscience, go to the current war (though i'd been on others).

Though I personally don't think I could do it, I think it's admirable for someone like him (good background, professionally already accomplished, etc) to join the military. Best of luck to him!