October 14, 2007
Let's get wastedIssues
Indolink.com carries a good article highlighting a study by Samir Patel, Nausheen Rokerya and Maneka Singh at Cornell University titled, Switchovers: Indian American Drinking Culture at Cornell
. The study claims to be the “first academic survey of ‘Indian American drinking culture’ in a college campus [setting].” The study sought to lock in on incoming desi undergrads who saw a particularly significant shift in their attitudes about alcohol (from something viewed as strictly taboo to something very normal and even necessary to have a good time).
Who were the subjects of this study? They were 12 Indian-American Cornell undergraduates - five male, seven female - who began drinking only after their freshman year of college. Demographically, nine were from the northeast, one was from the Midwest, one was from the west, and one was from the south. When questioned about their religious affiliation, three students identified themselves as being Jain, and nine as Hindus. [Link]
Since most of the people that read this site have graduated from college, the rest of this will be a bit nostalgic (and may even make some of you nauseous). If you find yourself getting angry or thinking, “kids these days…” it means you are getting wiser (AND possibly that kids are getting dumber).
First of all the study reveals that all of the freshman students were shocked upon arriving at Cornell and witnessing the heavy drinking atmosphere among their senior Indian counterparts. All interviewees also indicated a struggle between a desire to maintain roots and yet still get the full experience of American college life.
The authors argue that the “switchovers” adopted mainstream American culture and that the “adoption of this culture and consequent ideological shift was caused by a combination of socialization needs, avoidance of fears, and academic pressures,” including the desire to be popular among the opposite sex.
The study begins by claiming that the abstinent culture of the average Desi student can be attributed to the strong Hindu background and their parents’ primarily educational immigration motive.
However, upon entering college, the same Desi students realize that the culture found at Cornell is radically different from that which they were used to at home. They were particularly surprised that this culture, which so heavily promoted drinking and partying, was so willingly embraced by the college Indian community. One student did not “expect that this many Indian kids would drink” and was stunned as to how much Desi students did drink. They found that this new culture assigned significant value to “having fun” and recreation, as well as doing well in school: the “work-hard, party-hard” mentality that many of their non-Indian high school friends embodied, was also a value for many Desis at Cornell. [Link]
So let me break down for the researchers what I observed in college. For an increasingly greater number of students (desi and otherwise) “getting wasted” becomes a reward. It is something you deserve at the end of a long week for being an overachieving Indian student (even if your grades suck). Plus, everyone else is doing it and it might make it easier to talk to that girl/guy because, you know, maybe you aren’t that interesting otherwise. Another reason you may want to get wasted is because you don’t know how to tell your parents that you don’t want to be a doctor:
Many of the students apparently altered their life goals between the time that they entered college and the time that they began drinking, the study notes. According to the authors, this indicates a shift in ideology.
For example, one student’s goal during her freshman year was to do well in school so that she could prove to herself and her parents that she could in fact handle a Cornell workload. She never anticipated partying and socializing as being a big part of her life, but “the people [she] lived with went out to parties a lot so she went with them once in a while” and became exposed to alcohol. Similarly another student’s goal was to maintain a primarily academic focus. His goal was to excel academically, compensating for the fact that he did not get into MIT. During his freshman year, he placed “an emphasis on school work, not being social,” going out to parties only occasionally. Another male student said that his goal during freshman year was to “do well academically and get a high GPA.” A third male student’s goals were “not to get kicked out of Cornell, not to drink, to make good friends, to have a girlfriend, and to socialize…” [Link]
In August I attended a conference here in Houston titled, “Alcohol & Drug Abuse Among South Asians.” I was actually there to register people for the South Asian bone marrow registry but I did spend a good portion of the time listening to some of the talks. I was pleasantly surprised to see quite a few desi teenagers there with their parents. The better informed these parents are, the less of a chance their children will be shocked when they get to college.
After the students had switched over, they found themselves to be better assimilated into the Cornell culture. Whereas before the students often preferred to stay at home on weekends to study or relax, they now blended in with the rest of Cornell’s Indian drinkers, often starting their weekends off on a Thursday or even a Wednesday night. One student said that now he frequently “goes to the bars on a Thursday. Sometimes, [he’ll] even go on a Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday, if [he doesn’t] have anything due the next morning.
The study concludes that desi students’ alcohol consumption served as a rite of integration.
A student promptly summed this up in her description of the Indian drinking scene at Cornell. “There were times when people got drunk, but most of the time, people were just buzzed. At a typical party, you’d see a couple of kids that were wasted, and everyone else would be pretty normal.” Another student recalls that even when he thought his friends were very drunk, they could act normal when they had to. He remembers, “Once my friend’s mom called him while we were walking home from a party. I thought he was going to say something stupid, but he played it off pretty well. She still doesn’t know that he drinks…” [Link]
So naturally, you know how this post is going to end. Let’s have it you anonymous commenters whose parents (unlike mine) are not reading this. Tell us about your first experience with alcohol IF it was in college like the students in this study. Let the college students of tomorrow learn from your collective experience :)
abhi on October 14, 2007 10:08 PM in Issues · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Hah! ...I'm sorry, but this made me laugh. Also, I'm in college right now and I get along with the brown folk even though I drink very rarely. I think you have to take into account a particular school's 'feel' and social scene, and from everything I've heard, Cornell is a big drinking school (fraternity-style, there's a desi frat and a desi sorority there I believe) in general. Based on just what you've summarized, I get the feeling that this study has a too-small sample (especially considering that Cornell undergrad has like 13,000 undergrads and there are definitely more than 12 desis there!), and I also feel like the study overstates the 'desi'-ness of how the students changed their goals, attitudes toward drinking, etc. I feel like this is very common among undergards at schools like Cornell, where probably a lot of the students came from sheltered middle class/upper middle class backgrounds. I'm also not appreciating the supposed 'dichotomy' between a 'Hindu upbringing' and starting to drink/party/socialize more.
My first drinking experience was in high school, as it was for many of the desis I know (some of whom are now at Cornell, heh). I do think, though, that the following students are dumbasses:
Unless they're amazing at multi-tasking and super-efficient with schoolwork, they're probably missing classes/skipping assignments, and probably wasting their parents' money. If you're paying full tuition at a school like Cornell (which most desis probably are), that's like $100 wasted per class missed.
oops, I just read the 'if he doesn't have anything due the next morning' part. so i reserve my judgment in this case. but i do have a cousin in college who has a drinking problem--he depends on alcohol in order to be social, to hook up, etc. Not only do I think it's dangerous in the context of hooking up, I think it's sad that the goal is not to get buzzed and have a good time, but to get as wasted as you possibly can in the least amount of time (e.g. 'power hour').
Hey I resent this!
I do wonder how 'taboo' alcohol is for those whose parents drink socially, versus those whose parents don't. My dad and his friends regularly get together and drink and gamble, and even my mother will drink some wine once in a while. She even told me that if I didn't drink until I graduated college, she would buy me my first drink, haha.
I just wanted to clarify what I meant by this (sorry for so many comments, but finally there's something on SM that I can talk about with relative expertise!). I feel like the study is saying that the life goal changes, changes in attitude toward alcohol, etc. require 'reconciling desi roots' with 'mainstream American college culture,' when I don't think it is a desi thing so much as a general college experience. Maybe amplified for desis who come from conservative families whose parents always told them 'indians don't even think about sex or alcohol or rock music!' and didn't know enough other desis to know that partaking of sex/alcohol/rock n roll/whatever and being desi doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. so i'm, uh, glad for them that they're learning this in college?
Well I graduated in the 90s. Even way back then, Indian students - ABDs and DBDs drank almost as much as whites in my college. If you went to a party, almost every Indian I knew drank. As far as binge drinking, I think whites do the most. And white females definitely outnumber ABD and DBD women when it comes to getting so smashed you end up puking the next few hours.
I think DBD women drank the least. But DBD guys had no problems drinking. In fact, a lot more DBDs smoked compared to ABDs. Though more ABDs were more adventurous with pot compared to DBDs.
Yeah, this is pretty accurate. I arrived at school with the whole drinking is taboo thing. In my dorm I had a fellow-desi across the hall who drank. They were cool, and we talked a lot. And they would always ask why I didn't drink. And I never really had a solid answer. Eventually after missing out when everyone would go out to parties, and sitting around a bunch of drunk friends was no longer fun, I started to think more about it. On my 18th birthday (a few months into college) I had my first beer. I would then slowly increase my drinking. I definitely feel that drinking allowed me to actually "fit in" and not feel like a perpetual outsider. And for better or worse, this definitely made me enjoy college more. Reading posts like this makes me love SM. I never really thought about desi-drinking in the college situation, though I've wondered about my youngest cousins who just got to college and how they're handling it.
we should be careful about drinking like whites. size and metabolic biases matter. east asians can get drunk much quicker than europeans last i checked even controlling for size, and i think browns are somewhere between east asians and whites on this (northern europeans tend to have more issues with alcoholism than southern europeans too, part of it metabolism and part of it culture).
Nala makes some good points, but I would have to confess that I see a lot of myself in the desis described in the study--it's eerily accurate. My parents don't drink, & I started in college for some of those same reasons--i.e., to socialize, broadly speaking. I don't feel bad about it, but cert. alcohol can lead to a host of problems--OTOH, most high-income countries seem to drink a lot--e.g., Japan, Korea, Germany, US.
It's so weird that "higher education" in this country is associated with "partying".
Wow, I am so shocked by this survey. I am amazed that in this day and age, brown kids are shocked to find other brown kids drinking? REALLY? I too went to college saying that I wasn't going to drink, that I wasn't interested. I never drank in high school. And what do you know? The first week I went to a frat party and got drunk on Nasty Lite.
I am one of the few people I know that did not drink in high school brown or not.
However, I was by no means shocked by the amount of drinking by brown people. I think this could be due to a few factors.
One, I have an older sister and heard about her partying and going out in college.
Two, alcohol is not taboo in my house. My dad allowed me to take sips from his scotch. Not that I liked it, I think I just enjoyed the fact that it was breaking the rules. When I'm home on the weekends, my mom and I always enjoy a glass of wine together.
But I do realize that I'm the exception to the rule. I meet so many desis that are shocked that I drink in front of my parents.
I really don't see what the big deal is? I have to believe these kids were living very, very sheltered lives if they were shocked to see brown people drink. Granted I didn't go to a school that had many brown people when I was there, GO AGS!, but it never surprised me to see them drink.
my first drinking experience was unuual - it was not at a party. i did not drink my first year of college. then my 2nd year, some friends invited me to watch an a few episodes of "Coupling", a show i had not seen before. they got some bacardi and man, was that fun. i remember feeling perfectly fine until i got up, when i had problems balancing. but i quickly got a hold of it, and got back to my dorm where my roomate and his girlfriend were watching aladdin. it was magical.
When I used to come home from college my dad tried to convince me to have a glass of vodka and then offered to play a game of chess. His intentions were two-fold. First, he wanted to see how quickly I'd accept the vodka. Second, he wanted to get me drunk so that he'd be able to check my king with greater ease, proving that a college edumacation didn't make me all smart.
I'm in college right now, and I really never had any inclination towards drinking at all before, but it became much more acceptable once I got to college. Although not required, it does get a little awkward to be the only non-drinking person at a party. And especially around recently uninhibited and seemingly more experienced brown people. Overall, I'd say that a bit of drinking is harmless but binge drinking is shallow and... gross.
Also, I'm really surprised at how unaware my parents are to this whole situation of desi kids actually drinking and partying. I was trying to convince my dad that indian kids here party just as much as the others (not me included, of course ;)) and he wouldn't believe me! "No, the Indian kids too?!"
Most of the desis at my old high school drank. The ones who didn't were "fobs" or not part of the extremely clique-y desi in-group. I'm honestly not surprised at this report.
i don't drink often, i just sort of dabble in it.
but priya--i noticed the same thing about my parents too. anytime anyone brings up the topic of drugs/alcohol, they are extremely surprised if an indian participates in those activities. they're quite oblivious to what actually goes on.
I'm an undergrad right now at V.Tech, straight from the desh. I started drinking right before entering college. Here, not a lot of desis are teetotallers. All my undergrad friends drink and weekends generally mean atleast a bottle of liquor per person down. Other Desi freshman generally abstain from drinking for atleast a month or so before they cave in to the pressure.
Also, desis with awesome GPA's here tend to drink a lot, and it apparently doesn't affect their grades. I don't know if this is local or pervasive everywhere.
Anyhow, I think the general trend for all desi freshmen on my campus is:
1) If they started drinking before college, they will continue at the same pace, and it hardly affects their grades.
2) If they started drinking right after entering college, their grades suffer if they start drinking regularly.
The real smart ones (Top of the class in school. And by school I mean Indian school) do whatever - drinking, partying, drugs - but never drop their perfect grades, and Tech seems to have a lot of those.
Addendum to previous post:
There's not a whole lot of undergrads fob chicks here at Tech. In fact, not a whole lot of any other foreign chicks here. So us poor desis gotta drink to score some.
Oh and as an amendment to my post, I entered college 13 years ago!
And even back then I would tell my parents about going to bars and drinking. I really can't get over all this shock and surprise my parents and kids alike that brown kids drink.
I have to say that my Mom never allowed us to drink in front of her before we were 21. But my dad got his Master's here and drank in college. The fact that he went to school in Colorado and they sold beer in the cafeteria and Coors was a major sponsor probably helped.
So I'm assuming that many of the brown kids of this generation probably had parents that went to college here and saw the partying scene, so why are they so shocked?!!?
I'm shocked they are schocked!
This is probably an American phenomenon. I know most Canadian desis drink like fishes - well those of us who did our high school here anyway. You hit any club in TO or any university town and the drunkest guys are probably the brown ones. And desi girls are probably the same. Maybe cuz we're more assimilated? or the South Asian families are more liberal here than the states?
heh. yeah. the "if you're with other brown people, you're probably prepping for the spelling bee!" attitude. i remember once in high school (at a time when i was very shy) my mom asked me why i wasn't going with some other brown girls my age to a party, and of course i couldn't tell her it was because i didn't have a fake ID like they did. she was upset with me for being 'anti-social,' heh. jeezus, i know some brown kids that drank their parents' liquor!, in their parents' house!, while their parents were at home!
BadIndianGirl, your shock at the shock is hilarious. :P
meant to close that tag
I'm waiting for some DBD to comment how confused, naive, unsophisticated, and stuck in ancient India we ABDs are. But this (admittedly poor) study actually resonates with me.
My experiences....I was an undergrad in the early 90s...both my parents drank socially, and I would occasionally take small sips of my dad's drinks from the time I was a small kid...but nothing major. I didn't really drink in high school, and it wasn't until freshman year (college) that I had my first experience with getting wasted on alcohol. Since then, binge drinking with friends has been a regular occurance...but other than that I never drink. If there's no good occasion to do so, I might not have even a single drink for months.
Back in my day (I'm sure things have changed) I think there was a real big difference between desi college freshman and non-desi freshman (at least for the first few weeks/months of the semester, after that things evened out). For example, most of us desis were still virgins when we entered college (although that status changed very quickly for most), whereas probably only a small minority of white kids were. College was the first real hard-core partying that many of us partook in. And I do recall in the beginning being amazed that the Indian kids were partying so hard, since that wasn't my high school image of Indian kids. I don't think you can discount our home environments as being a huge factor in why we were so different. Up to and including high school, the emphasis was on school and getting into college, period. There was no dating allowed, and limited partying (before any one accuses me of speaking for all ABDs, let me clarify these are my anecdotal experiences and nothing more, and they pertain to kids in the early 90s from homes with educated/professional parents). The freedom of college was really something it took some time to get used to.
Tangentially, the other major topic we could discuss that comes off of this topic...I think for a lot of desis, high school was a time when you might have been the only (or one of a very few) Indian kid in your class or even your school. It made you develop various attitudes and coping mechanisms towards your Indian side (usually to try to ignore or downplay it). Suddenly though, you'd get to college, and you might find hundreds of desis all around you...in my college, a HUGE desi clique formed almost in the first week or two...all ABDs...and on Fri/Sat night you'd see like 50 Indian kids walking down the street heading to a party. Within these cliques, an embrace of certain aspects of desi life and shared culture were allowed to be expressed...finally you were with other American people who were Indian at the same time, and had childhood experiences that paralleled yours, and had a lot of the same cultural references.
The relationship between ABDs and DBDs in college is another thing that volumes could be written about.
What I really want to know about is brown college kids' sex lives. Is it as good as those of Indians (in India) or Nigerians or Mexicans??
Amitabh, I think this is a really good point. I would think many desi immigrant parents have a harder time 'letting go' of their children, because that's a family dynamic different from what they're used to (e.g. my mother lived with her parents until moving to the U.S.) - something that American parents also have trouble with, but deal with at an earlier age, like around high school time. But if your kids are going away to college, that necessitates some 'letting go.'
Binge Drinking was not very common in the Desh although many men had a 'small' by 15. Yeah kinda young but it was considered a part of growing up. I dont suppose binge drinking is common now although more women drink now.
Never really understood the fascination for binge drinking.
From my experience the same happens in India if you go to college outside your hometown usually by the end of first year you start drinking. Believe me most DBD are heavy drinkers.When you start your job that is when parents are informed.
Is this because co-workers rat you out then, or because you then have the "clout" to tell them? I'm curious because my parents still don't know I drink (heh--that is no doubt because I am an insecure loser).
From my experience the same happens in India if you go to college outside your hometown usually by the end of first year you start drinking.
That is true, in fact, a lot of kids in India start smoking and drinking by high school, since there is no legal enforcement on underage drinking. In villages, people drink moonshine also, and there are deaths by it sometimes. Smoking in Asia and Africa is very high. Beer in India has higher alcoholic content. If you went to KLDAV College in Sakuti Danda, guys are mostly interested in getting drunk, as classes, etc. are hardly regularly held.
You walk into IITs, Delhi U., Bombay U. (all primier Unis of India), you see a lot of butter chicken, drinking, marathon porn viewing parties. Youth festivals @ IITs, BITs, Stephen's College are non-stop partying***.
Now let's come to Cornell.......DBDs and ABDs at the undergraduate level used to team up pretty fast, and party together. Invariably (not always), a DBD from Desh at the undergraduate level at a school like Cornell (to afford that tuition from India, and with minimal or no financial aid - as federal student loans are for citizens, and permanent residents) are very rich, and have expensive tastes. Often, they became the lead persons. As a whole, Cornell is not a party schools, as State schools or even Stanford is. Cornell has the highest student suicide rate.
At graduate level in Cornell, it is an entirely different story (what I described in para above).
*** Even at IITs, once you get in, they is not too much pressure, therefore, it has more partying than its equivalents (comparable Uni. like MIT, Harvard) in States. Sure mixing of opposite sexes is not that prevalent or more awkward, but places like IIT hardly have (very few) female students, and that more has to do within Indian social culture also. But in Xavier's College or Stephen's College, I think partying is even harder since it has only yearly exams more on rote, no regular homeworks, quizzes, etc. - something Rang de Basanti even showed.
I don't drink other than rare occasions to taste a little bit out of curiosity. I have never been drunk. But I wouldn't feel odd to tell my parents that I drink if i wanted to. The same with dating. In college, i used to go to frat parties for other reasons.
This is worth its weight in gold the next time my moms tries to set me up with a Stephanian co-ed!!
You have to remember.........
Most of the parents of the ABD kids here were/ are nerds. That is why they studied hard, took GREs, went through the immigration sieve.
I have a friend (he is a Brit who even worked in USA) who spent quite a bit of time in China. His first order observation was that they were lot of cool kids in China as opposed to what he had met in UK/ USA, since only the studious ones tend (or even try) to make it to immigration process.
Manish Vij at Ultrabrown (former Sepia Mutiny man) touched this very eloquently a month ago, as he spent nearly a year in Mumbai last year.
Kush,
Yeah--too true.
Will check out the Vij post--thanks.
Yeah, I agree that the students that go to the bars on mondays and stuff are wasting money. During the semester one should only be partying on weekends. You have all summer and spring/winter break party on weekdays.
rob,
Here is a link to Manish's article.
His last para sums it up:
On a shallower front, I noticed in Bombay that the richest, sportiest and prettiest never emigrated. They were doing well here despite the socialist economy. They had no burning need. Yorkshire got mill workers. America got ambitious nerds and their children. I ran into Bombay aristocrats, jocks, models and rich kids who’d not once ridden the local, the likes of which I’ve never met among desis in America.
Here is a link to Manish's article.
I am a DBD guy (went to an IIT and now in grad school here), and I tasted alcohol for the first time in my freshman year. Since then I have been somewhat of a regular drinker, and I really do believe that alcohol helps you come over certain inhibitions and bond really well with your peer group. However, I come from a family that looks down upon drinking very strongly and there was quite a ruckus when they first discovered that I drink. I really couldn't impress upon then that drinking is (mostly) harmless - so my solution was to agree to not drink and just start lying to them when they would later ask me if I have indeed stopped. Although this has proved very convenient, of late it has started bothering me that I can't be open to my parents. Any one else in the same boat, or have any thoughts on this ?
Any one else in the same boat, or have any thoughts on this ?
Not exactly my mom knows i drink whenever she calls from india she usually tells me to be moderate in my drinking, she knows its no point asking me to stop ( she stopped that when i entered college in india).
getting into a top university in the US usually requires one to have participated in sports, and to have a balance between high verbal and analytical skills. theres definitely some nerd lineage in most of these cornell desi kids, but its been bred woth some all-american well-rounded over acheiverness which requires one to have some aggressive qualities.
as far as the comments about people being dumb for drinking on weekdays, i doubt at that point they are doing it to be cool. they may just be self-medicating their depression or angst.
regarding driniking culture in india, with the middle class, although girls are increasingly hanging out with the guys and drinking, most of those girls are close friends or ur buddy's girlfriend. there is no hookup scene really where there is loud music and everyone is getting f*d up and ur talking to some girl you dont even know. as far as night clubs are concerned, they're expensive and most people dont go there to meet new people, but to hang out with people they already know in a more stimulating environment. rarely see people throwing up over here, whereas in the states it was expected that it was someones turn to that night. on the other hand, drinkers in india imbibe very frequently and without hesitation because they know their "quota".
Oh dear. Whenever I've read about my alma mater on SM, it's been in a rather negative light (I think the last Cornell-related post was about the Cornell American and the trash they publish). By the way, Cornell does not have the highest suicide rate. It's just that the manner people choose to end their lives -- jumping into the gorges -- is more dramatic than what students in other universities tend to do, so people hear about it more, and then say stupid things like "try not to kill yourself!"
But there is indeed A Lot of drinking that goes on at Cornell. Hey, they even have a wine-tasting class, so you can get buzzed in a lecture hall. There weren't that many desi undergrads when I was there...there were enough that you'd know them all by face at least (and Facebook had just started my junior year, so some people literally knew others only by profile alone). The ABDs didn't really hang out with the DBDs (who were mostly grad students...the few undergrad DBDs I knew wanted little to do with the ABDs). Undergrad brown folk had a pretty good idea then of who the binge drinkers were, and who abstained. It didn't stop people from having good times though, as far as I could tell. I had desi friends who refused to drink, they were happy, and people respected their choices. There were many smaller factions within the already not-so-large brown population, so it wasn't difficult to fit in. Granted, these are just my observations from three years ago.
I only drank if I had something to celebrate, and even then it wasn't much -- I have a low tolerance for alcohol and never built it up. My parents have a glass or two of wine with dinner every once in a while, so the idea of my having a drink on occasion didn't faze them.
Nala,
In my country, Thursday night is party night. Wednesday often as well, but rarely Friday. I often go for social drinks even on Mondays. All this and most of my friends still manage to turn up for lectures at 9 AM. Although in the real hardcore 'corps' fraternities the binge drinking is much worse and people hardly turn up for college at all. Most of the other desis of my age that I know don't drink, though I know very few desis. Drinking allows for more social integration. I didn't drink when I started college, but I slowly got into the habit and it can be a great stress reliever. I'm not suprised that other brown kids drink; I do, and my dad quite likes his beers, so it wasn't a taboo in our house.
I didn't start drinking until I was 21. Part of that was because I just didn't think that it was worth it to get snapped up for underage consumption and then have to explain to the khaandaan as a whole why I was putting away cosmos. But many of the desis I knew in college were alcoholics waiting to happen, and this was despite a lack of frats etc.
I can drink entire countries under an assortment of tables now though, brown-person-genes be damned ;)
This is quite a strange survey. I imagine that if Punjabi students were interviewed it would be a different response. Apart from very religious Sikhs, Punjabi culture, especially in the diaspora, is a drinking culture.
Forgot to add also, in my country 16 is the legal drinking age. So no need to arrange fake IDs in college.
It's true that there was a big difference in the parents' drinking depending on regional/religious origin in the sub-continent. The funny thing is that Punjabi Muslims partied just as hard as anyone else in college. That being said, some of the hardest partiers I knew were Gujarati Jains. They did EVERYTHING...drank, had sex, smoked pot...oh but you can't eat meat!
Bottom line...college is a weird place.
and from everything I've heard, Cornell is a big drinking school (fraternity-style, there's a desi frat and a desi sorority there I believe) in general.
It is, but not as big as IC (Ithaca College) a meaningful parallel is the relationship of Boston U. To Boston College. As for desi frats and sororities at Cornell, not sure if they're recognized and have a charter. IND is up in SUNY Binghamton. There's a desi frat at UT Austin that I dont remember the name of.
Abhi @ 12: Son, I do not have to offer you, and never did offer you Vodka (or for that matter anything)to beat you at chess. Untill recently, as you know, I was having a glass of red wine with dinner every night for last 30 years or so. As they say Wealth, Women and Wine - in moderation - are beneficial to one's health. When I went to school in US - back in late 60s - we played poker all night, with a six pack beer for each player. That's about it. Once in a while at a party, when liquor was free, Desi's were spotted with "Scotch" in their hand trying to impress "white" girls. Oh those were the days !!
Kush @ 31: I beg your pardon. No I was never, and am not a nerd. Yes I studied hard, took TOEFL and GRE and got my "Green Card" strictly based on acedemic merits (they called it third preference in those days). Being acedemically smart has very little to do with consumption of (or lack of)alcohol. On a lighter note, they tell me that Lord Shiva (Mahadev) was a known addict, and would consume "Bhaang" on a regular basis. He could have done this to impress Parvati ! who knows ?
I think i was the only kid in college that wasnt drinking. (large urban university in the late 90's). probably did put a damper on my social life, but i didnt like how drunk people behaved, so i didnt care.
This quote from a college friend uttered circa 1991 stands out in my memory: "Can't have a subcontinental party without alcohol!"
I was underage thru out undergrad so my drinking was kept at a bare minimum level. To this day, excessive drinking turns me off and it's nearly impossible to meet 30something desis in the NYC area who abstain or know their limits.
I think ive only really met one other person who doesnt drink who isnt an ultra religious muslim.
My first proper encounter with the ol’ alcohol (proper meaning, going all the way, passing out, getting kicked out and ending up in casualty) was my first day of university. Having an incredibly beautiful, Keith Sweat loving, Punjabi housemate, I was up for anything to impress. Silly me for thinking drinking was the way forward. But when she offers you a drink, “yeah sure” become the only two words you need to know :)
Anyway she offered vodka and coke, and I said vodka straight would be cool. Now I may be love struck but my taste buds have standards so I did take the coke after. Well after a few of those, her stories of Birmingham sounded apocalyptic (I think she was talking about missing her dog)
You have to understand the story gets a little hazy from now on :)
Anyway we left to go to a beach party in derby, dressed in blinding orange shorts, Hawaiian shirt, and a t-shirt with Bart Simpson on it. So we get to this Australian bar for the beach party (as far away from a real beach as possible in England) and folk start drinking cocktails, and having a sweet tooth, they tasted really nice!
Lots of drinks later, I wake up the next morning feeling like I have ankle weights for a head band and my friend telling me that I got kicked out of the bar by two of the bouncers who were part of the derby American football team (American football in the east midlands?), getting smacked in the face leaving a dirty bleeding gash, left passed out on a park bench, ending up having a housemate who I only knew for 2 1/2 hours taking me to casualty. According to him the only thing I was worried about was losing my keys.
I made it for the 9.00am class that day, Punjabi, keith sweat loving girl became a very cool friend, and I learnt my first true lesson in life, “when you feel a little tipsy, have one more john and coke and enjoy the rest of the night safely”. But that’s just me. :)
In my experience, DBD males seem to smoke a lot more in college compared to ABD guys.
I was conservative about drinking until I moved out of residence with four girls. One of my roommates made these unbelievable margaritas one night and got me completely soused. Don't know why I abstained for two years in residence, but given the amount of brain cells I've lost drinking since then, I'm rather grateful.
I think ive only really met one other person who doesnt drink who isnt an ultra religious muslim.
Most muslims I've met don't drink, ultra religious or not. I've met men and women that party, wear provocative clothing, listen to music, but on the 'haram'-ness meter, it seems drinking alcohol ranks the highest.
However, Pinda, I also don't drink as much, but not for religion or anything of that nature. I just don't see whats "fun" or "having a good time" about getting dizzy, yelling loudly, puking, etc... plus I have no interest to support the alcohol industry.
yeah "ultra religious" might have been over kill. for that matter, most of the muslims i meet i very religious. i dont meet very many people who call themselves "muslim" that dont take it REALLY seriously. not sure why my sample would be skewed.
the reason i never drank is that i just saw downside in it. that, and i listened to my parents (because their advice tended to make sense to me).
In my observations at Cornell, as a grad student, the undergrad population liked to 'think' they were big drinkers and partiers on par with some of the big state schools, but they really weren't. I'm comparing it with my undergrad experiences at the University of Illinois, which wasn't even the best party school of the big 10. Southern/SEC schools are known to blow most of the country away.
Although, I must say 'Slope Day' was definitely an interesting experience in Ithaca. Thousands of students just show up on the 'Slope' on the last day of classes (tradition used to be the college offered graduating seniors a pint of beer on their last day), bring their own drinks, and get plastered. The Police only shows up to make sure nothing crazy happens, but they're not looking for any underage drinkers. The University even has volunteers with golf carts flagging drunk people passed out, hauling them off NFL style to the area where volunteers help these folks to re-hydrate and stuff.
My buddy told me once that MIT was rated as a good party school once by Playboy sometime back....
Although, I must say 'Slope Day' was definitely an interesting experience in Ithaca.
It's the only day the frat boys get up before 9 AM.
you know what they say about MIT....the goods are odd, but the odds are good...
Having one or two drinks is one thing, but getting drunk is NOT safe, especially for women if they drink til unconscious, they can and do often wake up raped, and it also occasionally happens to men. Alcohol brings one down, while ganja makes one high. Alcohol often aids in violent outbreaks which sometimes end in death. Ganja does not make one violent but rather chills one out. I'd rather kids smoke ganja than drink, it's just safer and more benign and the resultant behaviour is more trippy than dippy.
oh, man...and i didnt even consider that part of the downside risk.
is there any data on how many desi students get started before college?
Haha, RotiEatingHokie, of course everyone you know drinks! you're at Tech ;)
a lot of desi kids in college (as i remember it) used to act normal most of the time, then they drank alot and started acting like they were gangstas from the hood or something. they would tend to mistreat grls, then get into fights with each other. that sort of behavior led my young mind to the conclusion that i was different than every other human being on the planet. a feeling i never 100% shook off.
I'm shocked...shocked, I tell you! Kids go to college, see people drinking, want to fit in, start drinking themselves. Is it possible that brown kids are just like other kids?
Personally, I'm more distressed that a study based on a sample of 12 non-randomly selected (at least according to page 9 of the study) freshmen is considered an "academic" article.
Funny, a Punjabi friend of mine was really upset that a non-Punjabi friend made this comment over the weekend. It is indeed stereotyping, right? But, the problem I see is that Punjabis themselves often (not always of course) say this and in some sense take pride in it. How do you all feel about it? Should Punjabis take offense when people say that theirs is a drinking culture or that they are the biggest drinkers in India, etc?
I suppose it depends on context. In the case where someone is bragging about how they are punjabi and can therefore drink, it wouldnt be offensive. In the case where an aunti-ji says "dont marry them. they re punjabi. punjabis drink a lot and get divorce". in that case, its gotta be bad.
Another point, and this is purely based on empirical observation, but I always got the feeling that there's a correlation between a student's financial situation and their attitude/philisophy towards college/drinking/partying/etc... That is, if a student is essentially, 'rolling in it' and parents don't really have any issues paying the hefty bills, the kid is more likely (not always) to piss away the opportunity - or he doesn't need it in the first place.
When I went to school, one of my classmates was the heir to the Coors Beer Empire, you know he's not curtailing his drinking.. in fact he's probably mandated by genes to drink up (everyone as a joke kept tempting him to drink Bud's and Miller's).
I've found that people who's parents "put up the farm" so they could attend a good school wouldn't be so cavalier towards missing classes, drinking every other night, etc..etc...
Yes it true most punjabi men drink alot. Punjabi jatts are the biggest drinkers of them all. Of course I may be one of the few punjabi men who are not religous that don't drink.
Punjabi women on the other hand can only drink in private. Go to any punjabi wedding, and you will not see any women drink. If one did in the public, all the backward punjabi aunties would have a field day going off of the parents of the college educated girl drink, while forgetting the fact there thug son is in jail or dead.
You have to love punjabi culture in which a college educated girl who drinks, her parents are thought lower of then, the many punjabi parents who have sons who are drug dealers, in gangs, in jail or dead.
is that an exaggeration, or for real?
I think it's his personal opinion/stereotype.
It not an exaggeration, and it's very real in the Vancouver punjabi community. Just go to any punjabi wedding here, and you will notice that women will never drink, cause they afraid of what people will think.
I knew you'd show up on this thread sooner or later to begin the Punjabi bashing =)
i'm a recovering alcoholic and find very few young south asians that seek help dealing with alcoholism or drug abuse, often for fear of stigmatism, including self-stigmatism. It's not unlike the big hush in south asian communities regarding mental illness. Older working class men seem more likely to give themselves to a program of recovery, admit they need help, find themselves in need of it. I've never seen a south asian woman seeking help, though I've known south asian women with the disease. In fact, I've found South Asian women in colleges particularly to devastate their lives dealing with freedom they've never had, along with the potentially soul-killing combination of boys and alcohol.
Tamilians drink alot of rum. My personal experience is that Indians in India drink more hard liquor than Indians in the U.S. For example, my parents are basically non-drinkers, but their siblings that live in India drink rum and water every night for a few hours leading up to their dinner and then afterwards until they go to bed. They also smoke cigarettes, which I find rarer and rarer among older south asians in the u.s. and more common among dbds than abds. Young south asians in u.s. drink more beer because beer is so popular here.
For me, I first got drunk on the night before I turned sixteen, enjoyed it but didn't really want to admit to enjoying it as I was a weed smoker, thought alcohol was was for corny white people with no souls. I was later that year arrested for an assault while drunk when I was 16 but didn't think much of it, went to a college with lots of drinking, considered myself somehow different and not really a drinker like those corny frat boy people, though I began to drink alot there. I found that I had a low tolerance (which I imagined, rightfully or not, to be related to my being an asian) but a high capacity; that is, I got drunk quick, but I could drink alot and I drank fast. I enjoyed what I perceived as literally ecstatic experiences with drugs, but eventually it all fell into a soup of very hard drinking, alcohol being the most powerful drug I every experienced, overwhelming the high of most anything other than lsd. Alcohol also helped me, as a south asian who often was perceived (rightfully perhaps) as somewhat meek, build up a good solid aggression and assholeyness that for whatever reason helped attract girls.
...as somewhat meek, build up a good solid aggression and assholeyness that for whatever reason helped attract girls.
I thought all women wanted were nice, caring, considerate, funny, [insert rest of hallmark card BS here], people? Well aw golly gee willakers.
thats hilarious....i agree being agressive attracts more attn somehow...
Tula says
it is a bit of an offensive stereotype that is best put to rest. I dont like it, but unfortunately the punjoos who dont drink are unlikely to catch that much attention - and when the gilassis are out, the drinkers who get noticed are the ones with the giant punjoo noses or the turbans.
and... my experience says that the punjabi (keshdari sikh or otherwise) contingent on any flight between toronto and desh enjoys its scawtch (sic). I have interpreted the requests of many such greybeards to the attendants myself. They sleep rather well after that. The well traveled ones carry around a litre of chivas themselves. I dont know if it's a bad thing. The old dogs seem to hold it rather well, although I find it very uncomfortable if baoji starts making bawdy jokes. Bebe usually chips in with a few choice epithets. good fun.
seems to be an exageration but a littl truth to 'guys will be guys' and all that sort of thing you knowthey had to do a study on this? Uh I could have told them this without them wasting school funds...
oh btw - I've had alcohol poisoning once. if we live we have learned.
since when did asking 12 people become an academic survey? that is a drunken conversation as a party winds down.
Oh, by the way, heavy drinking totally seemed to be affiliated with the "hard core Indo partying scene" when I was a or afforded it, but it also just seemed expensive and wasteful (why build a tolerance when you can save money and be a cheap drunk? I keed, I keed). I don't know how much of this has to do with a high school to college transition or how much of it is just about being a frosh in college. Most of the people I knew in ugrad hadn't *really* been drinkers before they got to college (desi and non-desi included).
There seems to be a strong correlation between college-age drinking in the US and a taste for awful beer like Bud Light and Coors Light. I admit, what to me is a tasteless, diluted waste of time and money could to someone else, taste like heaven. But I can't see how! During my four years of college in India, I drank some pretty crappy beer too, but when I got the money, I moved on. I guess brand loyalty is pretty strong.
Also on the topic of desis partying, have y'all been to a big desi party where there wasn't a fight? I haven't.
You know what the really sad thing is! that the microbrews coming out of Colorado are truly an act of love and a wonderful refreshing drink. I had not drunk a full glass (after my poisoning incident) until I was in denver And took a sip of this wheat ale, a beautiful amber in color. I still keep myself to under a half-pint maybe once a couple of months, but request a taste test of whatever is on tap before getting a draw. Among the better relatively available brands, I would recommend this pilsner and this . There's a beer brewed by some quebecois friars that's supposed to be ambrosia, but my quest is yet unquenched.
After all it's just a drink and not a cultural statement - but let it not be said that one has poor taste. One might as well be dead.
You haven't tasted beer until you've had: (a) Old Milwaukee Light, (b) Natty Light, (c) Keystone Light, (d) Bo Ice or (e) Pabst Blue Ribbon.
Bud and Coors were high class in my college days. Icehouse was when we wanted to splurge but didn't want to go quite up to the Bud level.
Historically in India its the low castes and outcastes who have been prone to alcoholism. Maybe that explains why Jatts are heavy drinkers?
The responses to my query have been enlightening. Punjabis = hard core drinkers (w/ "positive" connotation; I put it in quotations since it's always subjective opinion of the one making the comment) has been something that I've heard so often fm Punjabis themselves that I assumed it wouldn't be offensive when someone of another community made that comment. It brings to light an interesting problem -- how do you squash stereotypes when people of the group in question are also the ones to propagate them? I can see this as a problem in a lot of minority groups.
I also find it amusing that much of the article's cultural premises are based on an India Abroad article. This would be a D/F study, I imagine.
ive never seen that....although fighting drunks is enough reason for me not to go to desi parties....
HMF - trust you to take some random guy's version of what women want as truth. Sometimes Hallmark gets it right (partly). (Some) women like to bang assholes. They don't date them for long, and unless they're doe-eyed young fools, they don't marry them.
I am a Tamilian and I have no inborn affinity for rum. In fact, I hate it. My SL Tam family members are in the Johnny Walker fan club (occasionally the Chivas as well) but there are no fans of Rum.
Alcoholism has many causes but I was always under the impression that the capacity for imbibing large amounts of alcohol (without passing out midway) has a hereditary component, i.e. if a parent had a certain capacity, the children would inherit it etc.
this statement could be misconstrued. (PERHAPS NSFW!!!!!)
Yep, that's what I'm talking about. Really, really stupid. Better to just smoke a little weed, chill out and be nice.
HMF and Noblekinsmen, you have to consider exactly what quality of girl is attracted to aggression and assholelyness and then consider if you want to actually attract that type of girl. Surely both of you young men are worth so much more than that?
This holds true in not only Punjabi culture but other male dominated cultures where questionable behaviour is more accepted for males than it is females because it's seen as a "boys will be boys" type of the thing but females are held to a different standard. It's not uncommon in many cultures even in today's world.
I don't drink. But when I have experimented (well, some hot chick wanted me to join in, and while I do not succumb to peer pressure, I felt no harm in letting her get in the mood!). So we had a shot contest. I drank 7 or 8 without any problems. Didn't feel the slightest buzz. It was like drinking a lot of cough medicine. My dad has a high tolerance. He drinks normally and I have never seen him even slightly drunk. Then again, we are tall and big by Indian standards. So maybe that plays a big role in my tolerance.
surprisingly fisticuffs are not very common in the weddings that I attended in India although more common in the diaspora. Any comments?
trust you to take some random guy's version of what women want as truth.
oh because the opinions voiced by "some random guy" and further corroborated by Pinda, must be the only instance in the history of mankind where such views are voiced? I just followed up to noblekinsman's comment because I'm nearly positive all the women he said were attracted to his 'assholeyness' would never state, "yes I am attracted to assholyness" rather probably the same hallmark cliche you put forth, but what people say they want and what they go for is rarely congruent.
Hmm...my skeptimeter just went red. 8 shots is about half a liter. I don't care how big you are, if you didn't feel a buzz, it wasn't alcohol. Or atleast not enough of it.
Yes they should because it is not true. The biggest drinkers in India are the mallus !!! Kerala has the highest per capita consumption in India (followed by Punjab).
And as many other people have already pointed out, the situation is the same even in India, especially when you have people staying in Hostels, away from home.
I felt a tad sluggish. But nothing really mentally. And it was those fruity raspberry shots. So maybe less alchohol? And it is more probably 7, not that one less makes a difference.
i know many dbds who are hindu (and not necessarily ultra-religious) who don't drink because of the cultural taboo associated with drinking in many middle class homes.
i know many dbds who are hindu (and not necessarily ultra-religious) who don't drink because of the cultural taboo associated with drinking in many middle class homes.
I guess thats the way it started for me, then after looking at it from a logical POV, the cost (expensive drinks, loss of control, hangovers, puking, etc) outweighed the benefits (conforming to some bs ideal of whats "cool" or "fun").
no actually that's not it. the main benefit of drinking is simply getting drunk--for some it is a way to move past their own discomfort in social situations and for others there are other benefits. You do not necessarily puke, lose control, or even have a less than tolerable hangover. It is also quite easy to get drunk on a budget--most people who drink regularly (and are not in the top income bracket)do so with efficiency and not solely with overpriced mixed drinks at high end bars. Get your substance-imbibing shit straight.
the main benefit of drinking is simply getting drunk--for some it is a way to move past their own discomfort in social situations and for others there are other benefits
That's not how most got started, particularly at my school. My frosh year roommate came to school with a staunch "I dont drink" the first party we all went to, he was front and center, by the end of the first month he was pissing in the hallway. laughing it up about how wasted he got. somehow I dont think he would have done that had he went to a corner alone with a bud. Most do it fit in.
And doesn't