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October 15, 2007

Keep the Gold, I Want a New Nokia for DiwaliFashion

I had a relatively traditional Punjabi wedding 4+ years ago; gold was involved. Not a lot, mind you (we’re no Chatwals). But my wife did get some heavy-looking gold necklace-and-earring ‘sets’ from both her own family and my extended family at the time of the wedding. Later, I came to wonder about the point of it all, since the majority of that jewelry simply can’t be worn ever again. (You’d look silly wearing such heavy jewelry at anything but your own wedding.)

Amongst urban Indians, gold is going out of fashion in general:

“My daughters keep saying, ‘Nothing yellow, nothing yellow.’ For them, gold is old,” Bhardwaj said in her living room while sporting three gold rings, bangles, a chain and earrings. A painting of a 16th-century Mughal empress embellished with 24-karat gold decorated the wall.

Her 21-year-old daughter, Sonam Bhardwaj, has had it up to here with gold. “I think it is too gaudy and chunky,” she said with a look of disgust. “Look at my mother.”

In India, where an economic boom has taken hold and tastes are noticeably shifting, Sonam represents one of the newest consumers on the block — a young urban woman who has distanced herself from India’s deep-rooted gold tradition.

Today there are legions of young Indians whose eyes twinkle not at the sight of gold but at the sight of luxury goods. Sonam, for example, is hoping for a new Nokia Nseries phone next month for Diwali, the Hindu festival of lights. She already has a pair of Versace sunglasses and a Guess bag in her collection of fineries. (link)

For me, this transition seems to be an interesting case of a changing economic structure leading to unconscious changes in cultural values and practices. Insofar as most Indians used to be suspicious of banks and credit, gold was the central denomination in life’s most important rituals. New brides were given jewelry in gold partly because the gold itself was a rock-solid economic asset, and I gather the jewelry was usually considered a part of the dowry ‘trousseau’ as well. In a more “liquified” consumer driven system, on the other hand, gold seems dull — static and dusty, like the Gold Standard itself.

Am I speculating too much here, or is there really some sort of unconscious connection between the psychology of the change in fashion and the changing macroeconomic paradigm?

Secondly, does anyone want to defend gold wedding jewelry, and the traditionalism it represents? (Would you rather have gold, diamonds, or something entirely different — say, a Blackberry ‘Pearl’ — as a wedding present?)

amardeep on October 15, 2007 10:53 PM in Economics, Fashion · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post



84 comments

 1 · khoofia on October 15, 2007 11:53 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I got my desi friends this, which i just adored the moment i saw it inthe store. the friends were probably expecting some fancy ass (and useless) gizmo because their reaction was meh. but i guess that's typical of any ethnic society when childhood friends diverge into different societal structures. so My feel is this article is reflective of the urban bourgeoisie. Gold still rools.


 2 · Prateek on October 16, 2007 12:11 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Is it still considered taboo to sell jewelry? From a purely economic standpoint it makes sense to pick an appreciating asset over a depreciating one but only if it's kosher to sell an heirloom of sorts.


 3 · jay on October 16, 2007 12:31 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

These are cycles that mirror tastes among younger women in general. Gold (yellow, at least) had already become less popular in general among younger women for a while, and actually it's starting already to make a comeback. I think the brown community trends are just lagging behind those. I recently got married and my non brown wife has long felt gold to be the standard among older women rather than among her peers. My brown aunts & cousins do seem to value nonyellow jewelry more these days. But don't give up on gold just yet, I think it hit a 25-30 yr high recently. I wonder, how long before the pendulum swings back again?


 4 · Chikki on October 16, 2007 12:36 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Hmm just last night I was trying on the 2 gold sets my parents are giving me for my upcoming wedding. I personally find them GORGEOUS...and even if I never wear them again (except for the occassional weddings and parties) I want to have them because my parents chose them...it's like an extension of theirselves. The phones, bags, etc will eventually get out of style, I mean who holds on to the old Nokia from years ago as a heirloom?...My in laws are giving me sets too, and currently the gold prices are so high so I feel terrible about them spending too much $$ on me, but for them it's so ingrained traditionally that they can't imagine giving me anything but the jewelry.


 5 · Bernie on October 16, 2007 12:40 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I'd be down for jewelry made from recycled metals. I don't think the family would understand.


 6 · venkat on October 16, 2007 12:44 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Gold more or less retains its value and is a good investment.
Nokia is not. But I guess rich people can afford both


 7 · rob on October 16, 2007 12:47 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Bad news for the gold souk in Dubai...


 8 · Lusterbee on October 16, 2007 12:48 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
Is it still considered taboo to sell jewelry? From a purely economic standpoint it makes sense to pick an appreciating asset over a depreciating one but only if it's kosher to sell an heirloom of sorts.

I dunno about selling it... but i know my mom has no problem buying it from the Desi version of a pawn shop dealer. I got mad and told her it was like buying other people's dreams.

about gold jewelry... i'm 27 and i regularly wear indian gold jewelry when just going out with friends -- like a pair of earings, a ring, a bracelt, etc. i love it. i love that its yellowy and gorgeous and has a luster that my friends all envy. most importantly i love the craftsmanship.


 9 · ria on October 16, 2007 01:23 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

gold is over-rated. the prime focus in many weddings is the bride's jewellery...even if it doesnt match the clothes..the bride has to wear loads of it...and that too shiny...and then for every occasion birthday, engagement the gift is gold. my diamonds are called "khada" (stones) :( and most rural women think its not worth much. good...dont hav to worry abt thm whn going to temples and other crowded places


 10 · Suchi on October 16, 2007 01:28 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

In the south at least, gold is still very valuable, and most girls still want to own a lot of gold jewellery. The difference is that they now also have: (a) lighter gold ornaments for everyday wear and (b) gadgets, perfumes and other consumer goods. These are additional items of value, not replacements for traditional ones.

My reading is this. We Indians have always had aspirations for foreign goods and fashions (the legends about relatives back in the desh wanting soaps and perfumes). This remains, but the difference is that these goods are now more easily available and affordable.

So, would you rather have gold, diamonds, or something entirely different � say, a Blackberry ‘Pearl’ � as a wedding present? I think the answer of most girls would be -- both.


 11 · rob on October 16, 2007 01:43 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
9 · ria my diamonds are called "khada" (stones) :( and most rural women think its not worth much. good...dont hav to worry abt thm whn going to temples and other crowded places

Yeah, those "rural women" are scary!

>> sarc. off


 12 · rob on October 16, 2007 01:48 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
10 · Suchi

So, would you rather have gold, diamonds, or something entirely different as a wedding present?
I think the answer of most girls would be -- both.

Paging HMF....


 13 · scorps1027 on October 16, 2007 01:54 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I had an antique gold set with stones for my wedding. I'm South Indian and for us 22k multiple sets are usually the traditional choice to wear for brides. But I wanted something traditional yet something I would wear again. I would never wear a heavy thick long necklace again. Come to think of it, I've never had the opportunity to wear my wedding jewelry again either or my wedding sari. But I love them both dearly and would like to think I would wear them or pass them down. The gold prices are ridiculously high these days, if you wanted to sell them I dont' think there's anything wrong with it. Taboo or not. In the old days jewelry was your safety net/equity. If some financial disaster happened, I have heard stories of ppl selling their jewelry to keep their family afloat. I guess trading it in for a downpayment on a house is the same type of thing.


 14 · ria on October 16, 2007 01:58 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
Yeah, those "rural women" are scary!

>> sarc. off

ummm...many of them are my relatives...but my point was that many ppl is smaller towns and villages are not aware of the value of diamonds. and if u go in temples on spl days like dussehra or diwali (thats the only time we go) u have to be very very careful.


 15 · rob on October 16, 2007 02:07 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
14 · ria and if u go in temples on spl days like dussehra or diwali (thats the only time we go) u have to be very very careful.

Fair enough--my parents are always complaining that the temple they go to (in ny) is too crowded...still, does shock me a bit that someone would try to take your gold jewelry--talk about "unclear on the concept"!


 16 · Indianajones on October 16, 2007 02:26 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Well, I think Gold never goes out of fashion. I wore diamonds with my white bridal dress and then changed into a red sequined sari for the reception/dinner and matched it with a LOT of gold that my parents Plus what my in-laws gave me! Felt like a queen for one day :) But now just ten months later, everythings in the locker!

- "Is it still considered taboo to sell jewelry? From a purely economic standpoint it makes sense to pick an appreciating asset over a depreciating one but only if it's kosher to sell an heirloom of sorts."

I have very very strict instruction from my mum AND my mum in law never ever to give away even a piece of my gold to ANYONE. Gold is an asset they say, meant to come to your rescue when all doors are closed and you're in dire need. Plus some of it has passed down from generations so there's the emotional attachment.

Also, I know a lot of Tamil friends whose folks give as much importance to diamonds as to gold- especialy nose and ear studs and kadas. Not sure if that hold true for Keralites in general as well.


 17 · Anju on October 16, 2007 05:55 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I love the richness of 24k gold. The deep rich color. It stands out when you wear another piece of gold of lesser karats.
As well if given a choice of jewelery or an electronic gift. 99.9% of the time I will opt for the jewelery. Especially if it's a good piece of gold. (even better if I can get really good gold and really high quality diamonds)
I would say to all young woman - take the gold. I was given bangles and such from a young age and when a day came that I no longer had a husband and there wasn't a job for me to pay bills. That treasure trove of gold given over the years saved my life. How I wish I still had some of those pieces now. The sentimental value of some of those now are more important to me. But I always remember I didn't give them up for nothing. I rescued my life with those items. Saving my honor in the process. So now when I give to my nieces I send gold jewelery with the same prayers that in their lives they have happiness and security. I also send a little cash to be put side for them. But the gold will last longer and can be fun to wear as well in later years may be a life saver.


 18 · PK on October 16, 2007 06:13 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I always feel - when it comes to gold, less is more. for everyday wear, there is nothing better than a small gold stud earring or a thin gold necklace with rhodium in it..that stuff looks classy to me...
And if you hav eheavy gold that you don't exactly wear, you can always melt it to make it into something more fashionable or sell it somewhere where you'll get a good price...no biggie.


 19 · tamasha on October 16, 2007 06:40 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Like Lusterbee, I often wear my gold jewelry when going out. Or to work. It's not the wedding worthy stuff, but sometimes you can pull of a piece here or there (I don't like my kids' parents thinking I can afford that shit though).

Most of my stuff is OLD, super old, like from before my grandparents, so wearing it makes me feel connected to them in some ridiculous way.

And I don't agree that less is more. Sometimes more is beautiful. I love the look of a desi bride laden with heavy gold jewelry. Excessive? Of course. But still.

P.S. Anyone else's parents or grandparents make reference to American gold? My grandmother used that term to describe 14 or 18 karat gold, which used to make me howl with laughter. She also used to call cubic zirconia "American diamonds." Ha ha ha.


 20 · random guy on October 16, 2007 06:40 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

gaaah!
can we please have a more man-ly topic here please!

i'm drowning in the mush flood!!!


 21 · Zen on October 16, 2007 07:59 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
P.S. Anyone else's parents or grandparents make reference to American gold? My grandmother used that term to describe 14 or 18 karat gold, which used to make me howl with laughter. She also used to call cubic zirconia "American diamonds." Ha ha ha.

Yes, I remember that term being used as if American Diamonds were somehow high tech when in reality they're no better than the crystals adorning all the $10 T-shirts you see in Times Square.


 22 · Amardeep on October 16, 2007 08:14 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

gaaah! can we please have a more man-ly topic here please! i'm drowning in the mush flood!!!

Random guy, I'm perfectly happy to have a discussion about fashions in wedding jewelry, but in my post I also opened up a window for discussions of the role of economics in this if people were interested. The Bretton Woods agreement, India's import duties on consumer goods, and the rise and fall of Middle East gold smuggling are all factors in the changing value of "gold" in India... Feel free to draw the connection to Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and 9/11!

Or not ;-)


 23 · dxdydz on October 16, 2007 08:36 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I personally can't stand heavy gold jewelry, but then I grew up with no real sentimental attachment to it. Aunties in my extended family, on the other hand, definitely do treasure it and pass it on. Out of curiosity, is it gold or silver that's supposed to look better with darker skin tones? I've always thought that gold looked way too yellow to look good on brown skin, but that's just me.


 24 · Munira on October 16, 2007 08:45 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I grew up not being a real fan of gold - wore silver most of the time. Got the usual gold jewellery when I got married - some I liked, some I thought was excessive. Well, many moons later, I am glad my mother persisted in the age-old tradition of stashing away a lit bit of this and that for me! I have a lovely collection of "everyday" gold jewellery plus some beautiful heavier pieces. Maybe gold appreciation comes with age because when I was younger I would have preferred that Nokia. But as someone else mentioned, that Nokia will have no value in a few years while the gold will still be around...


 25 · MsCutePants on October 16, 2007 09:16 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Gold is such the norm in India & within Indian culture. In our family, if you're celebrating an engagement, wedding, baptism, communion, confirmation...you name it...my Indian relatives always gave me gold as presents. So once my mom have my cousin who's more Canadian than she is Indian, a really good bood as her commumion gift (my mom's big on reading & education). Well! my aunt was upset that my mom didn't gift her daughter gold instead! Ha! My mom's got all these really nice sets that she wants to give me but I can't see my self wearing it. Not that I don't like yellow gold...& the Indian kind (22K)...I just don't like it on me. I'm more of a white gold/ platinum/ silver kind of person.

On the flip side, West Indians (my in laws are West Indian) LOOOOVE Indian gold. That 22K Gold gleams & shines for them like no other & the fact that it looks heavy. West Indian gold is mixed with copper rendering it a bit dull, so, Indian gold to them is like no other.


 26 · Gulti girl on October 16, 2007 09:22 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

My sister who's 23 and works for an IT firm is crazy about gadgets. She spent one month's salary on a Nokia N series cell phone, (which is butt ugly) while I buy the phone with maximum mail in rebate here. She has 3 iPods of different capacities. She wants me to buy her a notebook computer or a DSLR the next time I go to India. I sometimes wonder why she (and her friends) consider these gadgets as a status symbol? Because they can't wear heavy gold jewelry everyday? She doesn't stop buying gold though. I believe she has as much jewelry as my Mom does. (I refuse to wear gold, so Mom buys it for her.)

I, on the other hand, left my only piece of gold jewelry before I first flew to USA. I know I am going to buy some gold jewelry if I get married, but I'll never wear it on an everyday basis.


 27 · Neena on October 16, 2007 09:35 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

In older days banking not considered safe so people used to give Gold to their daughters for their harder days. Now it just became a symbol of prestige and honor. Most Desi and some western women still thinks it as a investment, which is total BS. If I can I'll sell all my gold and get myself a property or bonds which really comes handy when needed.


 28 · Laksh on October 16, 2007 10:15 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I love gold. I wear it every occasion I get. Chunky or otherwise. Can't imagine getting techy stuff as wedding gifts. Plus old heirlooms have an allure that nothing can match really. I've been collecting/buying pieces from my extended family in the hope I can treasure it.


 29 · Amitabh on October 16, 2007 10:31 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
leading to unconscious changes in cultural values and practices.
When it comes to cultural change in India (in general), I think A LOT of it is very self-conscious.

I don't care about the gold issue too much per se. I do think it's cool that Indian jewelry is 22 karat as opposed to American which is what, 14? And pure gold bars are a beautiful sight to behold.


 30 · Lusterbee on October 16, 2007 10:33 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
10 · Suchi

So, would you rather have gold, diamonds, or something entirely different as a wedding present?
I think the answer of most girls would be -- both.

Actually, for something like a wedding present from some random auntie i'd prolly want a kitchen aid mixer or a gift certificate to crate & barrel. Honestly, I totally agree with Anju who said

The sentimental value of some of those now are more important to me. But I always remember I didn't give them up for nothing. I rescued my life with those items. Saving my honor in the process.

I think i'd play up the sentimental value. My parents, aunts, uncles, and grandmothers have always given me jewelry for major birthdays and I will always remember who gave me what and why.


 31 · msichana on October 16, 2007 10:45 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Ah...a topic my husband would love. He is still in shock in regards to the bling I got for my wedding.

The designs are stunning but for me, it's a bit much. I don't wear much yellow gold in general but knowing that my mom saved for every single piece makes it all the more valuable for me.

However, I'd rather get the jewellery than the techie stuff or even cash. The sentiments are way better than a piece of equipment that might fry on its third use.


 32 · Shontanu on October 16, 2007 10:53 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

There is something deeply sentimental about gold . . . especially that which is passed down from the women in my family. I guess I will always treasure gold because I know it is something that I can pass down to my (future) daughters as well. I work in a law firm where dresscode is pretty conservative, but I do still like to incorporate some small gold pieces into my outfits -- at the end of the day, I am both American and Indian :)


 33 · Ardy on October 16, 2007 10:57 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I did a rapid fire glance through the comments and it seems a lot more to do with fashion. However, I think Amardeep you have raised a very valid point regarding the economic aspect. This is something I have observed too. In the pre-liberalized economy, Gold was definitely a solid investment and gold was more valued in India. This was the time of little free cash and budgeted existences for the middle class. Thus giving gold was a norm. And the rock heavy jewelery was never really used too much - I have never seen my mom wear her marriage stuff, says it's too 'jatka'. I would think this was done historically too and continued on till recently. Now with a lot more cash and a booming stock and real estate market and the awareness that has also come, I have seen a lot more inclination to invest in stocks and land in India. Thus I have seen middle class gifts moving from gold to these. Gold is still exchanged but it has become a little less important and more to do with tradition and ceremony. I doubt blackberries would ever be preferred.

Of course gold would never go out of style completely economically too. We see this in the economic circles all the time, when the markets are low and the bond market is not that favored either. You cant exactly keep oil in your locker.


 34 · Ikram on October 16, 2007 11:04 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Back in the day, gold was a woman's only financial asset of her own. If you husband got ill, couldn't work, or beat you to a bloody pulp, you could sell you gold and survive for a while.

Or you could sell it for other reasons -- my great-grandmother sold her gold to support the Khilafat movement in the 20s. Given the ultimate fate of the Caliphate, investing in AT&T stock would have been a wiser investment decision, but it was hard to find a good financial advisor in rural UP.

I suppose now that India is a feminist paradise, spousal abuse is a thing of the past, and women have complete financial security, there is no reason for women to worry about financial independence any more. So go ahead, chuck the gold, go for the fast-depreciating Nokia phone.


 35 · khoofia on October 16, 2007 11:11 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

random facts on gold.

overall gold consumption in india

top three consumers - us, india, china


 36 · voiceinthehead on October 16, 2007 11:14 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I have seen such articles since liberalization of imports in 1990. But the facts don't support gold substitution theory. It is gold + all other stuff. Gold demand in India has only one direction to go, i.e. up.

See India 07 gold demand seen jumping by 50 pct
This has gold import figures for the years 1996 to 2001. With increased economic growth, the demand for gold has only increased.


 37 · Nitya on October 16, 2007 11:25 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Okay - Mallu woman here(Not Mallu enough to claim to be representative, though). But here are my two cents. Gold, as you know, is very important in Malluland. At most mallu weddings, the bride can barely stand up straight because she's covered from chin to navel with gold. A veritable armour that,I think, would deflect a bullet or two. Which is all fine, if gold is what rocks your boat. If you can choose your shoes or your haircolour, you should be able to choose your metal. Perfectly acceptable.

Unfortunately, in most of Kerala, gold isn't a matter of choice. Not having a daughter laden with gold on her wedding day translates into an immediate loss of prestige; or earning the ire of family and friends for not 'providing enough' for your daughter. It also functions as a euphemism for dowry. I know women in my family who start collecting gold for their newborn daughters in anticipation of the big day. I also know relatives who've reduced themselves to bankruptcy because they've had to buy gold for their daughters weddings. This is compounded by women who don't take a strong enough stand on how much gold they want to wear (as opposed to how much society would deem fit).

I'm not a very big fan of gold. It could be because of the cultural context that I've seen gold function in or it could be because I generally don't wear clothes that complement the whole look. Last week it was my mum's birthday and I offered to buy her gold. We visited the jeweller's and she picked out a pretty pearl-studded bracelet. She caught me yawning a few times. And she figured that I found the exercise just about as fascinating as shopping for vegetables. She, for the life of her, cannot figure out why gold doesn't excite me. I don't know if I'm in a minority, but gold totally does not do it for me. It doesn't appeal to me economically, emotionally or aesthetically. I'd much rather buy myself a gadget. So yes, I can empathise with the girl who wants the N Series.


 38 · brown on October 16, 2007 11:38 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

The Washington Post article is making my head spin. I am not sure if anyone for one second believes that Nokia N series and Gold are mutually exclusive. Like Jay mentioned upthread, Gold is at a 27 year high at $761 and ounce dropping marginally from more than $800 an ounce and is pegged to cross $1,000. I feel it is returning better than most American Mutual Funds. I don’t think we can read too much into a bigger macroeconomic effect just because some people want a mobile phone for Diwali instead of gold.


 39 · jyotsana on October 16, 2007 11:44 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I am always surprised at the desire to find/spot trends in Indian tradition. Many a reporter and copywriter have made their careers churning out articles with these themes. India is estimated to have the world's largest private hoard of gold - that includes individuals, and of course our mandirs and kovils. The bride-to-be featured in the article here actually wants a new Nokia and gold. Not the one instead of the other. Amardeep, it looks like you wisely chose to stay out of the decisions on gold at your wedding. Women rule, men better keep out!


 40 · Sonia on October 16, 2007 11:56 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Hate yellow gold. I hated it when I got married 4 years ago but still got the signature sets from the parents and in laws. I tried to have them limit the gold or mix it with other stones, which they did, but I still got it as gifts from other family members. Now I have a bunch of gold that I haven't even touched since I got married (except for the bracelets) because nothing I own looks good with gold jewelry. Instead I love all the stone jewelry which goes great with Indian clothing.

Older women look at it as an investment, but they have memories attached to the pieces, so I don't see them ever selling them to make money. Anytime I think of that, it reminds me of all the melodramatic Indian movies and dramas where the women collect all their gold and sell it to save the family from financial ruin. I, on the other hand, can't wait to take all my gold to India (minus the pieces from my parents and in-laws) and trade it in for stuff I like!


 41 · Goldfinger on October 16, 2007 12:35 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

England has become the biggest consumer of gold in Europe, largely because of the South Asian community there, hitting the shops in Leicester and Southall. Mile after mile of gold shops.


 42 · kavita on October 16, 2007 12:36 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Nitya @27, I hear ya.

Keralites have a longstanding love of gold, but the gold bulletproofing of brides that shows up at Mallu weddings these days is clearly part of the cultural shift that has come with Gulf money.

Ask any Mallu over 45 and they'll tell you that this is a new phenomenon. And the regional gold dealers have learned well from their western predecessors, elevating previously unheard of holidays like Akshaya Tritiya in the same way that DeBeers successfully created the diamond engagement ring phenomenon.

Kerala is currently the only state in India with a higher ratio of women to men. Given what the 'girls side' is expected to shell out these days, I wonder whether that will change. Case in point - my Kerala cousins regularly tell me about classmates and neighbors who live in thatched roof homes whose families shell out 10 lakhs (approx. $25,000) and beyond JUST for jewelry for their daughters.

God only knows what they've had to do and give up to get this money, and it saddens me that supposedly the most progressive state in India is regressing in this manner. So when I see a Mallu girl draped in gold from elbow to wrist, neck to waist, I don't find it beautiful in the least. I find it vulgar and tragic and a sign that India's supposedly most progressive state is regressing.


 43 · kavita on October 16, 2007 12:37 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Sorry, I meant Nitya@37.


 44 · Whose God is it anyways? on October 16, 2007 12:38 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

“I think it is too gaudy and chunky,”

funnily enough, that would be an apt description for a lot of western designer products as well (chunky and gaudy or chunky and/or gaudy). having your name/logo plastered all over a product is quite gaudy in itself and some of versace's products like their china/accessories/bed linens/shirts define the word gaudy.


 45 · Goldfinger on October 16, 2007 12:39 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Hip Hop artists stole their bling aesthetic from us.


 46 · kavita on October 16, 2007 12:45 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I realize I might get battered for this, but I have a problem with the culture of wedding gifts in this day and age. Fine if you're getting married just out of school or really are just setting up your life, but if the idea is to help me establish a financial foothold, I could have used that help when I graduated from college, when I was making a career change, or for starting a business. Not now that I am more established, doubly-incomed and also considering marriage.

I find it a joke that this is the point in my life when people want to give me gifts. To hell with it! The future Mr. Kavita and I are planning to 'register' with non-profits and NGOs who can do far more with the money than what I can do a new and unnecessary Calphalon saucepan.


 47 · Nitya on October 16, 2007 12:48 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
I find it a joke that this is the point in my life when people want to give me gifts. To hell with it! The future Mr. Kavita and I are planning to 'register' with non-profits and NGOs who can do far more with the money than what I can do a new and unnecessary Calphalon saucepan.

I hear you, sistah! Death to the god of the innumerable wallclocks and prestige pressure cookers.


 48 · indianoguy on October 16, 2007 01:10 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

A wise man once said "Gold is the opium of Indian girls". Ok, I just made that up.

On a serious note, lot of south Indian guys do wear lot of jewelry. One of my uncles wears 3 chains, 5 rings and one bracelet (all made of 24 carat gold). He looks like "walking talking" jewelry shop.


 49 · Nitya on October 16, 2007 01:15 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
Case in point - my Kerala cousins regularly tell me about classmates and neighbors who live in thatched roof homes whose families shell out 10 lakhs (approx. $25,000) and beyond JUST for jewelry for their daughters.

I've seen this happen. I stayed with my grandmum sometime last year. And her driver's daughter had just got married. He invited my grandmother to bless the newly weds. My grandmum obliged. I tagged along. We reached this tiny little place. Thatched roof, one 40 Watt bulb, a stove in the corner, and five people huddled in the room. As we entered, the bride was sent away and asked to put on all her gold and come back inside. She came back inside with tea and biscuits. She was covered with gold; perhaps enough to buy the family a decent place to move into or to start a small business. It upsets me when I think about the logic of it all.

I agree about the new phenomenon bit too. My mother tells me things weren't as OTT in her time.


 50 · Upbhransh on October 16, 2007 01:22 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Gold is still in a big big demand in the weddings and dare I say will stay like that for a while because of its liquid value. The gold bussiness in diwali and wedding season is still increasing and its makes total sense to me because its an excellent form of saving where the asset is quite easily sellable but still is not cash so not easily spendable. Diamond on the other hand is a total different animal, People think of it as a good investment and women think of it as an expensive present, but the reality is that it loses it value after it comes out of store faster then a brand new car coming out of a showroom.


 51 · glass houses on October 16, 2007 01:50 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)


gold is classic!

http://image.com.com/mp3/images/genie_images/story/2006/e/ericb-rakim01_story.jpg


 52 · Vamsi on October 16, 2007 01:58 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Top 10 Reasons Indians Love Gold

I am confused now ...


 53 · Beige Siege on October 16, 2007 03:14 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
ummm...many of them are my relatives...but my point was that many ppl is smaller towns and villages are not aware of the value of diamonds.

(even better if I can get really good gold and really high quality diamonds)

What makes you think Diamonds are really valuable? They were valuable hundred something years ago when there were only a couple of known mines(In India). Since diamonds were found in Africa at the turn of 19th centry, there is no real reason why diamonds should be more expensive than other gemstones like cubic zirconia.

What really keeps them expensive is the skewed monopolist markets(supply side) of Africa and the super successful marketing machine in the west. Next time y'all think about diamonds as an investment or when you see those "Your husband/fiancee/boy friend does not really love you unless he gets you a diamond" ads consider that.


 54 · Jagmeet on October 16, 2007 03:22 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I have gold jewelery and love wearing it while going out for the evening. I think the key to wearing gold on occassions other than weddings is wearing one piece at a time. I also feel more comfortable buying gold than diamonds because you need to know alot more about diamonds to make sure what you are buying is worth it.


 55 · DR1001 on October 16, 2007 03:32 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I feel like the tradition of giving gold at weddings is almost an ingrained cultural thing so it'll be a while until it goes away (if ever).
yeah people give tv's , and other practical appliances but gold still holds that 'prestige '.
I agree with most other who commented that you can wear some of the gold given as wedding presents in moderation depending on the occasion/ venue you're attending.
I have sets that are set with stones that goes well with western clothes and bigger pieces that I would only bring out for desi functions...the main wedding set is locked in my parents safe and even though we are progressive , it was part of the wedding customs and I chose the designs etc.
I do think getting gold on certain occasions has a sentimental value too.


 56 · Mytri on October 16, 2007 03:49 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

BWAHAHAHAHAHA
At Ganjam my husband and I had a heated argument in undertones. I did not want a diamond necklace and he wanted to buy one for me since he had not bought me jewellery and my mother-in-law is standing there and wondering why I woulnn't buy the biggest, ugliest, garish necklace they were showing. Finally one of the Ganjam ladies took me aside and said, Ma'am you are the FIRST lady who is fighting with her husband to NOT buy a necklace.


 57 · Tara on October 16, 2007 03:57 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Personally, I adore my gold sets. They're something solid and tangible, especially living in the States and really not feeling that sense of historical/cultural grounding all the time. I have a ruby and gold set that I add something onto every time I go back, bangle, earrings, maybe a nose stud next.

True, it's not practical to wear the big antique jewelry all the time, but it's so much fun to bring out, and have "special" things.


 58 · dravidian lurker on October 16, 2007 04:03 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

why choose? get a vertu cellphone.

disclaimer: animals AND people were harmed during the making of this cellphone.


 59 · hello on October 16, 2007 04:34 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

the houston chronicle noted this trend in the US too (see video here):

RETAILING / Younger South Asian-Americans, unlike previous generations, find diamonds more alluring than the 'yellow stuff,' a trend that jewelers in southwest Houston's Little India are capitalizing on / Gold's cultural glitter fades

By PURVA PATEL
Staff

Lillian Bharucha is used to getting gifts of gold.

Her family has marked birthdays and other milestones with golden earrings and necklaces.

But on her upcoming wedding day, the 24-year-old will forgo a cultural tradition centuries in the making: Gone is gold. Diamonds are in.

"Since I have so much gold, I thought diamonds would be a nice change, and they actually match with everything," said the Houston-raised Bharucha, whose parents are Pakistani and of Persian origin.

Gold is losing its luster with many second-generation South Asian-Americans.

Unlike the generations before them who were all about 22-karat gold - a purer and brighter yellow form of gold than is commonly sold in mainstream American stores - young South Asians are increasingly being drawn to the sparkle of diamonds.

It's a trend that has not been lost on the dozen or so jewelers in southwest Houston's Little India.

Years ago, they never would have thought of stocking up on diamonds. But today storefront signs along Hillcroft and Harwin boast the sale of diamonds, and many jewelers say diamonds now account for at least half their sales and inventory.

Kohinoor Diamonds, for instance, opened about two years ago on Hillcroft solely to hawk diamonds. And Moon Jewelers plans to open a second location this fall, Moon Diamond Palace, to focus on diamond and bridal jewelry. Kirti Jewelers' new location on Harwin will also bear the name K.V. Diamonds.

"Nobody really wants to wear the yellow stuff," said Neelofer Ali, owner of Kohinoor Diamonds. "If you want to buy gold, you have to wear so much with it and make sure your whole outfit matches. Diamonds are a little more exquisite and elegant."

Changing traditions

Brides have traditionally donned heavy golden sets on their wedding day. And after marriage, many Hindu women have traditionally worn a mangalsutra - a necklace made of a gold ornament hung from a string of black beads or a golden chain - that serves the same purpose as a wedding ring in the West.

Immersed in American culture, many second-generation women are opting for diamond bridal jewelry, dropping the mangalsutra for wedding bands, and adopting the Western tradition of diamond engagement rings.

Traditions vary by culture and religion, but many South Asian weddings entail a number of ceremonies spread over a few days. So it's not uncommon to see brides make several dress and jewelry changes.

Because her family traces its origins to Persia, the Western influence is perhaps greater than in most Hindu-American or Muslim-American households from the region, said Farieda Irani, Bharucha's future mother-in-law, who will give her wedding jewelry, according to her Zoroastrian religious tradition.

The shift to diamonds for her family is more a result of economics than a shedding of tradition, she said.

"Gold played a large role because it was always more affordable than diamonds," she said. "I guess we have done well enough whereby we can afford to give diamonds, so we're a bit more indulgent with those things with our kids."

Multipiece diamond sets for brides can cost thousands. At Karat 22 Jewelers, diamond wedding jewelry can start at $9,500 compared with gold sets, which start at about $5,500 and are usually sold by weight.

Shopkeepers say well-heeled second-generation shoppers are willing to spend more on a few diamonds than on a lot of gold. That way they can wear the jewelry more often and not be forced to store it in a safe-deposit box.

"Even as a kid growing up here, I never wore gold during the daytime," Bharucha said. "For functions and parties, I'd put on my gold bangles and gold earrings, but I like to wear jewelry all the time, and this is something that just goes with everything."

Long history with gold

Jewelers say gold still sells well, especially to first-generation buyers.

South Asians' love of gold can be traced back to Pan-Asian emperors as early as the fourth century. They used gold as a currency and a way to flaunt their wealth, said S.N. Sridhar, chair of the department of Asian & Asian American Studies at Stony Brook University in New York.

The practice made its way into the culture, and gold as ornamentation permeated architecture, clothes and jewelry.

Families also began to store their wealth in gold, he said, passing it on from generation to generation. For instance, among some South Asians, the practice of stridhan, "woman's wealth," entails a bride's parents giving her jewelry as a sort of insurance policy in case she is widowed or separated from her husband, he said.

"This was her money independent of her husband's family, and he had no right to it," Sridhar said.

Many South Asians still believe in the traditional value of gold and its role as a status symbol, he added.

"Gold is the king of gifts and the king of possessions," Sridhar said. "It's a way to show your wealth in a way that everyone will recognize. There's no question as to how valuable it is."

Tradition still a presence

Though younger buyers may have lost their appetite for gold, they haven't necessarily lost their sense of tradition.

Stores still sell mangalsutras, but now they also come with diamond pendants.

And young brides like Bharucha are still looking for distinctively Eastern designs.

"I like Indian jewelry," she said, adding that she hopes diamonds will prove a good investment for future generations - a signal that the idea of storing wealth in jewels may not be disappearing. "I want to give something back for when my kids are older."


 60 · Dari on October 16, 2007 06:29 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

"Guess bag in her collection of fineries."

GUESS? is a finery since when?


 61 · ria on October 16, 2007 07:54 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
What makes you think Diamonds are really valuable? They were valuable hundred something years ago when there were only a couple of known mines(In India). Since diamonds were found in Africa at the turn of 19th centry, there is no real reason why diamonds should be more expensive than other gemstones like cubic zirconia.

What really keeps them expensive is the skewed monopolist markets(supply side) of Africa and the super successful marketing machine in the west. Next time y'all think about diamonds as an investment or when you see those "Your husband/fiancee/boy friend does not really love you unless he gets you a diamond" ads consider that.

hmmm...do i come out as such a snob? first rob and then this. well, im the last person to be going after any kind of expensive, statusy thing. the only reason i hav diamonds is that my hubby insisted on them (well, he thought they were the in-thing then) but anyways, i wore fake jewellery (silver plated with gold) on my wedding day as the dress wouldn't look good with my things. we even thought of hiring gold for the day. so umm, im not the girl who goes crazy for diamonds.

but anyways thanks for the info. will keep in mind the next i go shopping.

still, does shock me a bit that someone would try to take your gold jewelry

hmmm, there are thieves in those crowds. they target temples coz they knw its gonna b crowded and women will b wearing lots of gold.


 62 · melbourne desi on October 16, 2007 08:37 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
Gold more or less retains its value and is a good investment.

Mate please look at the price of gold over the last 50 years. Gold is insurance - not an investment.


 63 · tamasha on October 16, 2007 09:11 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
I find it a joke that this is the point in my life when people want to give me gifts. To hell with it! The future Mr. Kavita and I are planning to 'register' with non-profits and NGOs who can do far more with the money than what I can do a new and unnecessary Calphalon saucepan.

That's all well and good for you and Mr. Kavita, but not every desi's salary provides enough with which to save. I'd be fine with getting jewelry for my wedding, but because I have so much already I'll probably ask for cash and put it toward real estate.

GUESS? is a finery since when?
I am so glad you said it so I didn't have to. ;)

 64 · Rezia on October 16, 2007 09:59 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I LOVE gold and diamonds. I wear my gold jewellery (with rubies, emeralds or whatever) with any kind of Indian clothes for parties, Eid etc. And I have this stunning diamond wreath necklace that I like to wear to dress up simple salwar kameez.

I can't understand how anyone can not love the richness and femininity of gold jewellery. But the last Indian/Pakistani do I went to, most of the girls were wearing costume jewellery. They were all absolutely enthralled with my stuff though :) They thought I was 15 (which I'm NOT) so expected less formal attire I think. I also have this Gucci watch, but I don't love it as much as my gold and diamonds...I'm so NOT a label person.
Given a choice between accessorizing with my Blackberry Pearl (it's really fun to use and very chic) and gold, I'd choose gold anyday!
It's really nice being spoilt!


 65 · Rob on October 16, 2007 10:34 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I am happy to hear that gaudy Indian gold jewelry may be going out of fashion. I do think it does make sense for brides to get gold or other assets at the time of the wedding, as young married couples do need some financial security, and Indian brides especially need security. So the gold would not have to be in the form of jewelry, and it may be better to give it in coin or bullion, which may be more easily converted and will have a value that is not debatable.

Westerners tend to roll their eyes in disgust at the way old world peoples obsess over jewelry and gold, and how they wear it as a sign of affluence, a sign of "I'm better than you". Western egalitarianism, which is anathma to traditional Indians, was likely born out of Christianity, which was a rebellion agaisnt everything Hindu that was in Judaism. Christianity then gave rise to Marxism, which continued the trend of seeing the gaudy display of wealth as somewhat if not totally disgusting.

The only two people I have ever met with gold rims on their Mercedes were an Indian businessman and a rap star.

Can anyone say "bling bling"?

I hope the trend away from gaudy jewelry is a sign of increasing Westernism in India, which will be good for India, especially good for the poor.

On the Internet, I see tourist pictures of India, of street scenes in various Indian cities, and am very aware of how Western or how American many of the young people are dressing. Jeans are everywhere! Sports jersey type shirts are everywhere. These trends even reach into the remote villages. The baseball hat is everywhere.

It will take time for India to come around. Eventually they will come to understand how so much of their old world traditions and even the Hindu religion are connected with ancientness and mendacity. St. Thomas, the apostle who preached Christianity in India, beginning around Goa, was killed by Hindus because the truth he was speaking about human meanness and cruelty, was too much for Hindu's to hear. They killed him, just as the Greeks killed Socrates for being too truthful, and just as Gandhi was killed for telling the truth and also Dr. Martin Luther King.

Here in the USA, many people are not aware that the fashion of toe rings, bangles, multiple facial piercings, and tatoos comes to us largely from India. As it turns out, in the USA one can gage the disfunctionality of a person by the amount of Indian inspired trinketry they wear, and the number of tatoos they have. A good friend of mine is a tatoo artist, and he confirms for me that a large percentage of his customers are cognitively deficient and gonzo. They also do piercings in his tatoo parlor.

I see the pictures of Indian girls, especially villagers and dalits, who over adorn themselves with jewelry, to the point of looking quite silly to me. They do this because of tradition, of course, but the tradition is based in valuing a person for their labor and wealth, rather than the understanding that a human has intrinsic value. Of course with over-population intrinsic value tends to erode. But when I see those over-adorned young ladies, all I can think of is hugging them and telling them they are valuable and good without such trappings. Then I want to give them a good education in science and maths. And then I want them to find a good husband, rather than the typical jerk, so that they can raise the next generation is the spirit of enlightenment, and keep the gold and jewels somewhere safe, and not on display.

India is changing. The young are sick of the ancient ideological crap their parents have been feeding them. Young Indians want to integrate with Westerners, which means less gaudy jewelry, amoung other things. Young Indians understand now that the poverty of their locale is based in Hinduism and the corruption that always attends any patriarchal hegemony. I say untie the young and let them fly. They really do have potential, and parents should not be afraid of looking slghtly silly in their children's new eyes. If Indian parents make an effort to see the world through the children's eyes, then the children will not despise you, and they will forgive you for not being able to completely adapt to their new world, the real world of less mendacity.

Cheers



 66 · rob on October 16, 2007 10:41 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
65 · Rob

Just for the record, that is not me.


 67 · amaun on October 16, 2007 10:44 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

What really keeps them expensive is the skewed monopolist markets(supply side) of Africa and the super successful marketing machine in the west.

Laboratory Diamonds may ultimately kill the diamond trade/industry. All you need is a few companies to start making & selling lab diamonds without the disclaimer. The historical/antique diamonds will still be valuable but the diamond engagement ring industry will disappear.


 68 · Whose God is it anyways? on October 16, 2007 10:44 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

re: #65: thanks for the laugh. it's been a trying day. my brain needed some extremely light, dumbed down reading.


 69 · kavita on October 16, 2007 11:13 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
not every desi's salary provides enough with which to save.

I understand.

And not every desi gets married either.

My point - wedding presents are mostly meant to "start" a couple out, but most of us "start" an independent life or makes a big transition well before we reach the altar/mandap/Vegas. At least I'm betting that's the case for most Sepia readers.

(And from what I've seen, it's rarely about salary. There's plenty of people with a lotta salary registering for all sorts of blingity bling bling)


 70 · khoofia on October 16, 2007 11:45 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
not every desi's salary provides enough with which to save.
if yo are constrained by salary or taste from indulging in jewelery - then you should consider purchasing art by desi artists. i am told by an antiquities trader that indians and chinese have recenty started spending freely on collectibles - everything from stamps to paintings. since they are relatively early on the curve, the rate of appreciation will be extreme. good luck.

 71 · Rob H on October 17, 2007 12:16 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

#68:

typical behavior of the weak. Bash without backup. Betrays your psychological Achilles heal. I would say that I would expect more of an Indian, but as an egalitarian, perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "why should I expect more?"

I could put my point another way. Suppose tomorrow some horrible virus killed all the Indian people, also the Bangladeshis, Pakis and Lankans, because it vectored in on on the genes that make a desi a desi. Then, in the absence of Desi's, Westerners moved in, primarily Europeans, Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and Japanese. (yes, Japanese)

Do you think we would create the same mess that is that region today? No. With the exact same resources, but with different ideology, we would creat what we have in Europe, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan.

Yes, India is older than Europe, and so has had more time to make a mess of itself. But Europe was a mess in the Dark Ages, where the streets and sewers were one and the same, and the fuedal system resembled Indian indentured servitude, and children were pressed into work, but she cleaned herself up quickly after the onset of the Enlightenment, largely fueled with coal, prior to 1920 when oil became an excellent new fuel. India has always had coal and iron, as well as lumber and other metals, and so we have to wonder why the lack of developement? I don't think the lack of developement can be blamed on the British Raj. If that was all that was holding things back, then India should have sprung into modernism after 1949. Actually, the British Raj contributed to India's development, as can be seen by the lack of development and infrastructure in Afghanistan, Myanmar, Nepal, Tibet and other adjacent regions that had much less British involvement. Also bear in mind that the USA was part of the British Raj, but that did not hinder development here.

Westerners provide a lot of the monetary support for Indian orphans and street kids in hostels. It's not that the Indians can't take care of this problem on their own, it's that they won't. Well, calm yourself, in time India will fully adopt western ideology and then she will be clean, functional and....she won't have to send her children to the USA for a university education. In fact, the flow of students may go the other way. (And toilet paper will be everywhere in India, and it will not be floating along the surface of the Ganges River.)

Don't misinterpret my intentions. I love (most)Indians, especially Bengalis. I quite often rent Bollywood Movies, read Indian newspapers, and I support a street kid in a hostel in Kolkata. These kids clean up quite well. After a few months in the hostel (Ashalayam), you'd never know these kids had been marginalized and ignored by their own people. Life is so funny. I have to laugh 'cause otherwise I'd cry.

Cheers


 72 · BadIndianGirl on October 17, 2007 01:01 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
P.S. Anyone else's parents or grandparents make reference to American gold? My grandmother used that term to describe 14 or 18 karat gold, which used to make me howl with laughter. She also used to call cubic zirconia "American diamonds." Ha ha ha.

Yeah! My mom says both "American gold" and "American diamonds"
I always thought it was really funny too!

I do think Gold is considered an investment, especially for women in India. Before, women were not allowed to inherit land and therefore the jewelery given to them by their family, was in some way their inheritance. And if necessary, their daughter could sell the gold for money if she absolutely had to. Now that the inheritance laws have changed, it doesn't apply as much, but tradition is hard to change.
Also, the price of gold per ounce has only always gone up, so it's a very sound investment.


 73 · desiaynrand on October 17, 2007 09:54 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

For my wedding 4 years ago, I had to convince my mother that I really, REALLY wanted to wear her wedding jewellery and to not purchase anything new (and elaborate). My non-brown husband (and his family) got me platinum and diamond jewellery but only after consulting me first. I have nothing against gold (or any other precious metals/gemstones) but I do have a problem with this level of demand/consumption in the desi community.

For anyone who claims that gold is a hedge against inflation, a safe harbour for women who suffer abuse, an investment (because 'the price of gold has always gone up') etc, I would recommend that they look to diamonds, platinum/paladium/titanium for those qualities. Even these materials, which have both personal and industrial uses, have not a straight trajectory upwards over the past few decades. Besides, would you want to carry around your personal wealth in such a heavy form? Give me diamonds anyday!!!


 74 · brown on October 17, 2007 10:07 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)


Gold prices have had a 5 year CAGR of close to 20% and a 20 year CAGR of 10% which I think is pretty phenomenal. I personally think it is a great investment.


 75 · Anuradha on October 17, 2007 10:57 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Rob -- The west CREATED the mess that is in South Asia today . . . as well as the troubles in the middle east, but we will save that commentary for another posting). It is a result of the meddling by the British in India in its division that lead to the dispute over land in Kashmir. I urge you to look into the memoirs of the British architects of Pakistan and India post-partition to learn more about how LITTLE thought went into the division. Further, it is the meddling by the US in Afghanistan that led to the rise of the Taliban and subsequent escalation of Islamic fundamentalism. The US created the Bin Laden whom it now cannot find. Again, I urge you to study the history of US involvement in Afghanistan in the late 1970s to learn more about this period. The US has a very short-term foreign policy and doesn't stop to think about the long-term implications of its actions. (This is precisely why we have the problems that we do in Iraq right now -- that we will save for another post). So, get off your west-superior high horse and try to look at the events in South Asia (and the world generally) from a more global perspective.


 76 · Anuradha on October 17, 2007 11:08 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

p.s. Rob, a side note, you should spell check your posts; development is not spelled "developement" and feudal is not spelled "fuedal." Perhaps you should have gone to an Indian school!


 77 · Camille on October 17, 2007 11:18 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

I don't know if it's worth the effort to entertain Rob (not rob) since he is so clearly trolling on multiple threads. :)

My mother + grandma call it "American gold" also, if it's under 22K :)


 78 · rah on October 17, 2007 02:03 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

"Gold is the battery of the soul."
-Ravi Srinivas

"These ain't conflict diamonds, is they Jacob? Don't lie to me man."
-Kanye West


 79 · random guy on October 17, 2007 03:41 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

#22 Amardeep

you got me!

so then, ladies n gentelmen i'd like to steer the conversation towards goldmember ...grooovy baby!


 80 · melbourne desi on October 17, 2007 09:41 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
And toilet paper will be everywhere in India,
Bidets are cleaner.

 81 · tara watabe on October 17, 2007 10:05 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)
And toilet paper will be everywhere in India,
Bidets are cleaner.


I've discovered the best arrangement is this;

The hand should never touch stool because that may result in disease. If one wipes with toilet paper and then immediately jumps in the shower with a removable shower head that has a very strong option for a direct flow of water onto the area, then one can get perfectly clean without ever having to touch that area at all. Of course this requires a removable shower head with strong outpour so that you can hold it in the exact position neccessary to thorougly cleanse yourself.

In India the water flow from taps is often not very strong, hence I found that the squatting toilets there accompanied by lots of water in a bucket and a big wasing cup, along with good quality liquid soap (dettol brand), to work initially. Then from there you immediately take your full body shower or bucket bath. Anything else - just toilet paper alone, or just bidets alone or just water and a squat toilet alone, does not get you clean.

And nails must be kept very short, regular clippings should be made routine.


 82 · Ennis on October 17, 2007 10:44 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Yes, it's PG all right ;)


 83 · brown on October 18, 2007 09:08 AM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Ennis #82,
You are absolutely correct, this has cleared any confusion whatsoever, this definitely is PG :)


 84 · dkd903 on October 21, 2007 08:02 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?)

Gold Obviously (did I hear a huh ?). It will anyday have a better resale value than a PDA or a Blackberry or any hell electronic gadget you name.


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