Thanks amardeep for the links.

It is the dirty face of BJP, VHP, Bajrang Dal and Shiv Sena. It should not be questioned whether it is funded or not. It is the truth. And let the whole world see the truth and let them spit on the face of dirty preparators of riots against helpless Muslims. I have strong belief that godhra train carnage is also prepared by them. Those who are supporting Modi and his government deeds are toads in the well which think they are strong, whole world is seeing and the powerful ones also. People should concentrate that killers are admitting themselves and providing every detail.

Guys, nothing will happen. In India, politicians have impunity to carry out mass murder. Has anyone from any party who participated in any religious or caste massacre ever been brought to justice? Anyone from Congress who organised the November 1984 horrors been held to account? Post Babri massacres in Bombay? Anyone? No, and they never will, because the pwerful in India are free to commit crimes against humanity and they will never, never, never meet justice. That's just the way it is. That is India. The worlds largest democracy, don't you know?

It wouldn't surprise me if the popularity of Modi rises in some sections of the Gujarati diaspora too after these videos are seen, the type that cheered him in their thousands as a hero when he visited England. Sad but true.

I could read through the English transcripts on tehelka's web site, but it is very hard to watch this video. At the core of (my) beliefs is the faith that humans are compassionate, rational, conscientous - and that despite superficial differences our core values remain the same and they transcend societal fissures. Where does this leave us today? no doubt there will be those who follow this post who will say, the people in the video are not one of us - but they are. Were I in Ahmedabad that day, born into that society and faith, would I do any different? Do we stand in judgement of individuals or of society here - and at what point does one slough off enough, before one realizes that one has hit bone.

Sayed Ahmed, please avoid overly emotional responses.

Plenty of people are likely to criticize me (and Tehelka) for posting this, so it's important to assert only exactly what we know to be true. The deaths in the train at Godhra was determined to be an accident, and it's enough to accept that without speculating about further conspiracies.

that was absolutely frightening.

i don't know a whole lot about politics within the subcontinet itself, but i do know that my parents are bjp/vhp supporters, unfortunately. i never really knew what those parties stood for until i recently researched them. seeing this video made me cringe. i wonder what my parents would say about this guy?

I feel that Godwin's law is going to come into play very soon into this thread

For those who cant follow hindi - here's some selection when they were talking about dropping people in a well and burning them alive with tyres and petrol

"we got petrol free from the pumps"
"didnt leave the women and kids. they shouldnt breed"
"when they were dying they started clinging to each other".
"we didnt rape. if some girl was runnign and some guy took her away on the side, that's something else".

and this man has recently been to some prayer! judging by the sacred thread and the 'tilak'.
I couldnt watch any further.

I have strong belief that godhra train carnage is also prepared by them.

Shocking!, very very chilling.
Unfortunately, this will help Modi win the elections one more time. Tehelka should have released these videos after the elections.

I really must ask this question, but I don't know the best way to word it. This Babu Bajrangi guy - are his claims true? I am unable to shake off this feeling that he is trying to present "What I wish I had done" as "What I did" to claim credit in the eyes of his peers. I don't doubt that he has a huge amount of hatred seething away within him, and I don't doubt that society as a whole is the worse off having him around. But I really must ask - did he really do it or is he only boasting that he did it?

Tehelka is once again making a fool of themselves, nobody believes them, this is no evidence against modi.

Syed, do not mess up your point by saying Godhra was started by Hindu parties. Let's not whitewash all the trouble started by Muslim groups all over the subcontinent and neighboring countries.

But I will say that even some of my Hindu relatives have been downright ridiculous when saying "well who cries for the Hindus.". And it gets worse. I have heard some Hindus even say "Serves them Right" even though the "them" refers to innocent Muslims who had NOTHING to do with the train burning. YOu know what? What happened to the Hindus in the train was bad. But what happened to innocent Muslims all over the state was even worse. You know why?
1) The informal sanctioning by the government of murder of Muslims. This is not a vigilante action. Vigilante action would be to find out who burned the train passengers and expose them to a mob. This is not even close. And when the government does it, you have done damage to Hindu-Muslim relations for a couple of generations in that state. The state just helped some fanatic muslim organization in recruiting new potential terrorists.
2) The betrayal factor by your own neighbors. I would be pissed if my family members were killed by a random mob. But can you imagine how much more devastating to the psyche and how your faith in humanity gets shattered when your own neighbors turn you over to a mob which kills even kids ruthlessly? That is the face of many Hindus in Gujarat. And for Hindu families in the US to invite that motherfucker Modi and not take him to task for his failure makes me want to kick their vegetarian asses.
3) The sheer numbers in the carnage. We are not talking about an immediate reaction where one muslim killed a hindu and and then his hindu friends relatiated in pure insane rage and killed the muslims around them. There had to be a lot of planned carnage over the next few days when people had time to reflect.

When I heard this Indian guy at a party say "serves them right" I was so fucking tempted to beat [him up. PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL. -SM INTERN]. His kids were there. So I limited it to a lecture.

Tehelka should really release a line by line English transcript of these interviews for non-Hindi speakers

There are a lot of transcripts availalbe for non-Hindi speakers on the Tehelka website. It's not just one guy they interviewed. But reading the whole thing may make you a little sick. NSFW in the worst way.

Pingpong, it's a legitimate question. In my haste, I hadn't bothered to Google Babu Bajrangi. It turns out he has been pretty open in confessing his involvement even before this:

One might dismiss Babu Bajrangi as a bombast when he claims proximity to the chief minister, or describes the beating of Muslim boys. But for a man of obvious stature in society he is also accused of burning Muslims alive. As the chief accused in the infamous Naroda Patiya case, one of the worst instances of brutality during the 2002 violence, he is alleged to have led the mob that killed 89 people in the area. It is a burden that rests lightly on Bajrangi’s shoulders. “People say I killed 123 people,” he says. Did you? Bajrangi laughs, “How does it matter? They were Muslims. They had to die. They are dead.”
Evidence of Bajrangi’s complicity was so overwhelming that even a pliable state administration could not save him from an eight-month stint in prison. “They cannot reduce my hatred for Muslims with that, can they? While in jail, I demolished a small mosque that was located in there,” he says with a sly, childlike grin. (link)

So he has done some time in prison -- just 8 months, and he's now out on bail.

The way to really confirm that he's not just a psychotic braggart is to look at the deaths documented in the area he's talking about, Naroda Patiya, and see if the nature of the deaths that occurred there corroborate with what he says he did.

I sat through some more.
"bahut mazaa aaya" - "I enjoyed it a lot" the guy says when talking about killing the Musalmaans.
"Narendrabhai got me out of jail. the first judge said he should be hanged. we waited a bit. the second judge came in. he also said I should be hanged. we still waited. then narendrabhai set it up. he felt enough time had passed. the third judge, a guy called akshar mehta came in. he got me off. cleared out the jails" in reference to his imprisonment and his subsequent release.
"it's in my FIR. There was this pregnant woman. I ripped her open", makes a slashing gesture with his arm, "and pulled it out" talking about the foetus.

And for Hindu families in the US to invite that motherfucker Modi

unfortunately if you believe (as this mass murderer does) that "we are at war" (of survival), against another group (defined qua group), you are likely to suppress any humanity that you may have. one is then unlikely to see individuals (similar to themselves), only groups that need to be fought and exterminated. this scares the crap out of me. this is also the mentality behind ethnic clensings and genocides. thankfully (and hopefully) there are more people in india who are not so far gone (as this specimen of inhumanity). also fortunately i know of plenty of civil society groups that regularly fight this madness.

Amardeep - thanks for your response. I'm searching Google for a few related keywords now.

I have just spent 15 minutes going through the work Tehelka has done and it is remarkable. Everyone with a conscience should read every single word of it, as I will when I get the time to sit down and read properly. It will be very painful reading for all Indians though, I warn you. And multiply what is catalogued here for every other similar bloobath unleashed by Indian politicians on innocent people in the last 25 years. And remember, not one single person responsible for these genocides has ever been brought to justice for their crimes.

I meant Gujarati Hindu families.

Guys, nothing will happen. In India, politicians have impunity to carry out mass murder. Has anyone from any party who participated in any religious or caste massacre ever been brought to justice? Anyone from Congress who organised the November 1984 horrors been held to account? Post Babri massacres in Bombay? Anyone? No, and they never will, because the pwerful in India are free to commit crimes against humanity and they will never, never, never meet justice. That's just the way it is. That is India. The worlds largest democracy, don't you know?

India Shining.

Oh, I see !! It is the Gujarati Hindus who are beastly and evil.

OK, then. My bad. Let me be explicit. Any Gujarati Hindu family that condones what was done in Gujarat and does not feel repulsed by it.

That is the face of many Hindus in Gujarat. And for Hindu families in the US to invite that motherfucker Modi and not take him to task for his failure makes me want to kick their vegetarian asses.

I meant Gujarati Hindu families.

Let's not turn this into Gujarati bashing. It so happens that this occurred in Gujarat...but the sentiments are there under the surface throughout many regions of India. I don't know if the signs were there in Gujarat before Godhra that something like that might happen...but I think it could happen in other areas of India too if circumstances dictate.

Modi has a lot of blood on his hands...he's also developing that state economically like nobody's business. It will probably surpass Punjab in terms of per capita income in a decade or two, to become the richest state.

Pravin, please keep it civil. That means no cursing (or at least less cursing!), don't single out whole groups, and don't engage in name-calling. I deleted a comment that crossed the line.

BTW, SM did cover the controversy over Modi's visa denial. Do a search for Narendra Modi on the sidebar...

At least America has the integrity to ban the great leader from entering their territory. Modi was welcomed in London by thousands and thousands of British Gujaratis who garlanded him as their hero. The article I just linked to mentions that there was no Pinochet style arrest for him. I personally know that human rights activists are working on preparing cases for individuals involved in 1984 and Gujarat so that should these individuals ever enter the UK they may get a Pinochet style shock as they mingle in their soirees and during their shopping trips.

I'm not trying to praise Modi...he's a murderer on a huge scale...just factually describing that he's been good for business, and he's popular...voting him out may not be easy.

Thanks for sharing..I've lost my appetite today Amardeep! Nothing new and stuff like this was known all along. So long as this tit-for-tat attitude continues, India will remain a shining example for the world!

Amardeep, I apologize. I got some unresolved anger over that incident where I heard this guy talk crap. There have been many riots in the country. But the Gujarati thing really struck a nerve in me after the Sikhs massacred in 1984. What really struck me about this is how many Gujarati Hindus in the U.S. don't seem to be outraged. The fact that they can openly support Modi and his government after all this is mind boggling. That makes me generalise even if not all of them are bad. If something like this happened in my community, I would be embarassed as hell that it happened.

At least America has the integrity to ban the great leader from entering their territory. Modi was welcomed in London by thousands and thousands of British Gujaratis who garlanded him as their hero. The article I just linked to mentions that there was no Pinochet style arrest for him. I personally know that human rights activists are working on preparing cases for individuals involved in 1984 and Gujarat so that should these individuals ever enter the UK they may get a Pinochet style shock as they mingle in their soirees and during their shopping trips.

look i'm glad that that mass murderer modi did not get to enter this country; but lets not kid ourselves. this was not die to any "integrity" on the part of "america". far worse war criminals and others who have committed crimes against humanity live here (and some may argue run this country). have you heard about people such as emmanuel constant, etc. (to keep to the most uncontroversial)? also another one (kissinger) is pretty successful, i hear (listen to the nixon tapes about his orders in vietnam and cambodia).

typo, i meant "due to"

Amardeep, I apologize. I got some unresolved anger over that incident where I heard this guy talk crap. There have been many riots in the country. But the Gujarati thing really struck a nerve in me after the Sikhs massacred in 1984. What really struck me about this is how many Gujarati Hindus in the U.S. don't seem to be outraged. The fact that they can openly support Modi and his government after all this is mind boggling. That makes me generalise even if not all of them are bad. If something like this happened in my community, I would be embarassed as hell that it happened.

Fair enough. I've also encountered a fair number of folks in the U.S. (not just Gujaratis) who downplay the violence in 2002, saying it was "understandable." It's easy to do that when you're at a distance.

sigh!

OK, fine, but at least America took a stance on this one issue. Credit where it's due.

Sigh. It is true the U.S. is not consistent in who they admit into the country. But when you(not you personally) are a criminal visitor(and i do not mean that legally), you are not entitled to equal treatment. Consider yourself lucky if you get in. But someone's luck doesnt translate to your right.

TO ALL THE MODI HATERS READ THIS

http://www.geocities.com/hsitah9/facts_speak_for_themselves.htm

pravin and suzy, i agree with both of you (in fact i personally singed petitions, among doing other things, opposing modi's entrance). i just wanted to point out that one should not rely on government standards on these things.

Spent some time on Google searching for more that this Bajrangi has done. Among other things, I found this Frontline article. He apparently also runs a "bride retrieval service" to "rescue" Patel girls who marry outside their community. Free beatings included for the groom.

And the problem seems deeper than just him, judging by this article which managed to analyze the phone records of various cops & politicians.

“the goodwill of the majority is best safeguard of the minority.'' – Sardar Vallabhai Patel --
I doubt that the reactions to Godhra, generated any goodwill (the victims were blamed because they were Hindus returning from a pilgrimage in Ayodhya).

Hemant, read this.

I googled articles on this COUNCIL FOR INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS AND HUMAN RIGHTS and i couldn't get a real objective background.
And it spends more time blaming who is responsible for the train. Most of us do not oppose going after any muslim troublemakers hard if there were any. Hell, I would be not lose any sleep over vigilante violence over them. In fact, I was telling my relatives that the Indian government should have quietly injected a slow poison or HIV strain into Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh when they traded him for the Indian Airlines hostages in Afghanistan. So I am not exactly a super pacifist.

The link I read casts some doubts on the objectivity of this council. You mean, they couldn't get a single muslim or Christian to be on it?

"bride retrieval service"

Who made him the saviour??!!

sounds like a nutjob to me....

The press and lefties not allowing any of the people on the train to be victims only harden the view of conservative Hindus. These are people who were at the receiving ends of riots in the sixties and seventies where the Congress led vote-bank dependent government did not help them and only saw order when outside police forces from outside of the state helped them. Every additional person that says Godhra was an accident or done by the Hindus themselves as vote banker laloo yadav would lead you to believe, only hardens the views of the majority community which has historically felt victimized.

Does this makes the riots right? NO

But until people get the idea that being a religious Hindu = being a Hindu fascist out of their head, an idea that is pushed about by SA journalists and journalists of SA descent rather than non-desi journalists who report on the region more equitably, Modi, or the Hindu right will remain in power in Gujarat. Always. He is good economically and in the absence of a ruler who is not at the whims of a vote-bank, Gujarati Hindus will vote for someone who they believe will watch out for them.

Here's the transcript of the Babu Bajrangi video...shocking to read....even more than listening to him...
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main35.asp?filename=Ne031107After_killing.asp

Hemant, your facts are currently unavailable. Care to enlighten us?

#29,
Just get some perspective for God sake. America has caused a masacre of more than half a million Iraqis and has caused 25% of the population to abandon their homeland and brought untold misery to those unfotunate who remain there. Yet this government was voted into power again. So from the same logic are all americans evil?? It is your tax dollars that is continuing the carnage there, yet in the burst of holier than thou emotion you didnt move out of the country, did you?? Do you have the courage to call Bush the same ??? and did you beat up some Americans who defended the Iraq war??? Heck, for all we know you might be voting these people in power.

It is easy to judge. My last comment on this subject BTW.

The press and lefties not allowing any of the people on the train to be victims only harden the view of conservative Hindus.

The press never said the train passengers deserved it. Besides, by the time all was said and done, the riots carnage was dwarfed by the damage in the riots. So you thikn the press is going to give equal time to the passengers? Did most of these Modi supporters immedeiately try to put their efforts in helping the passenger families or find the culprits instead of hunting down unrelated muslims?

RC, first I will never vote for the Iraqi war proponents. Also if India ever decides to bar Kissinger or Cheney from their country, they will have my support. Any other questions?

Amrita, thanks. I was finding other snippets of transcripts from Bajrangi, but not the section that's featured in the video above. The Tehelka website is hard to navigate!

Sad.

Let's not turn this into Gujarati bashing. It so happens that this occurred in Gujarat...

Amitabh, your point would have been valid but for one tiny detail. Gujarat reelected Modi after all this, that means they fully supported what happened (at least a majority) or else did not care enough about something as horrendous as this to not vote for him. Of course, bashing every Gujarati for what happened irrespective of his or her involvement is wrong but what happened In Gujarat is utterly shameful and a big chunk of people in that state were a part of it.

I dont think there is any non-corrupt politician like Narendra Modi in india also proud to be hindu.
All this secular bs has been fed by Congress Inc for 60 years which was nothing but vote bank politics.

Pravin: The press never said the train passengers deserved it.

You do not remember the reports immediately afterwards -- The press did imply that the passengers deserved it:

This week's Muslim attack on Hindus has to be seen against that regional background and history as well as in the larger national context. The victims "were not going for a benign assembly", Teesta Setalvad, the head of an anticommunalism group, told the Washington Post. "They were indulging in blatant and unlawful mobilisation to build a temple and deliberately provoke the Muslims in India."

We know that this is a lie in this case -- the vast majority of pilgrims burnt alive were women and children. Every single article I read around that time used the term Hindu activists/ fanatics rather than the more accurate term -- pilgrims. No-one mentioned that the majority in the coach were women and children. Many later started saying that the victims molested a muslim girl (still has no evidence) and more than one columnist said that they had it coming.

When a communal crime against hindus like Godhra occurs, usually, there is no response at all and the criminals get away with murder (think Coimbatore bomb blasts – no death sentences, Marad massacre, Wandhama massacre, Brindabanghat massacre, etc).

There is never any real accountability for any incident in India and hindus usually turn the other cheek (If you look at it the 1984 riots were purely congress, while in gujarat, leaders of all parties took part in the riots).

Gujaratis re-elected Modi because he did not allow the misnamed 'secular forces' to sweep the Godhra incident under the rug.

(personally though, the retaliation that occurred against the Muslim community as a whole in the aftermath of Godhra was too broad-based and too violent for my taste.)

(personally though, the retaliation that occurred against the Muslim community as a whole in the aftermath of Godhra was too broad-based and too violent for my taste.)

And what kind of retaliation would have been 'to your taste', pray? What death count would have been acceptable?

Please think about what you are saying here. It is really disturbing.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2002/04/15/stories/2002041500161000.htm

Saying that a few Hindus might have done something doesn't mean the same as saying the Godhra train burning was justified. Besides, BJP had the power not to let this be swept under the drug because they were in control. You conveniently ignore this important fact. The fact is if the BJP government did their job, they would have caught the muslims responsible for such a reprehensible act. And you praise a BJP government for its failure. BJP types like to talk but they act like wimps when Indian Airlines was hijacked by Muslim terrorists. They gave up two prisoners like total wimps. The Taliban were laughing at the BJP ministers. How tough would it have been to poison those prisoners with something slow acting? Why couldn't they do something similar to Israel in Uganda (Raid of Entebban). All they do is talk. But go after innocent muslims? Easy to do.

Gujaratis re-elected Modi because he did not allow the misnamed 'secular forces' to sweep the Godhra incident under the rug.

You talk about Modi like he is a hero. How did encouraging evil acts enhance the reputation of Hindus as tough guys? How does protecting innocent Muslims prevent someone from exposing the Godhra train killers? How would you feel if some white people attacked your family, killed your children because of 9-11? Do you tihnk they care if you are Hindu as long as you are brown? Would you be so restrained in your disapproval of the incident(oh personally, it was a too violent for my tastes).

personally though, the retaliation that occurred against the Muslim community as a whole in the aftermath of Godhra was too broad-based and too violent for my taste.

this makes me cringe, it is painful and embarrassing, as an indian and a hindu and a human.

Tehelka claims that its spycam videos prove definitively that Narendra Modi gave direct approval for the killings in 2002, but I’m not sure, yet, that they do that (my views may change as I dive further into this). The video I saw does seem to add to the argument, which has been made consistently by Modi critics since 2002, that the killings weren’t a random upwelling of popular rage, but rather akin to an organized pogrom.

This reminds me of the Hutu-government-sponsored genocide of Tutsis in Rwanda. That wasn't 'popular rage,' but an organized movement that had been planned carefully.

People have been saying that Modi has been good for the Gujarati economy - but isn't Gujarat pretty well-off to begin with? I guess I'm having some trouble wrapping my mind around this, because one of the common things that people like to say to themselves when something like this happens is, "Oh, but they live in horrible conditions, they have no other choices/don't know any better." It's harder to understand pure hate. Did the riots in Ahmedabad place in poorer areas of the city?

When a communal crime against hindus like Godhra occurs, usually, there is no response at all and the criminals get away with murder (think Coimbatore bomb blasts – no death sentences, Marad massacre, Wandhama massacre, Brindabanghat massacre, etc).

I would not characterize this as a communal issue DD. The account is not unknown to what we have seen come out of Bosnia, Rwanda, Zaire, Albania, Armenia. Goes back to my first comment. Would any of us have behaved differently were we in that situation? indeed my first sense is shame, and that seems to be the emotion felt by the Baweja and Tejpal, albeit for different reasons.

Of course the whole issue is at the heart of darkness. what separates the so called civilization from the lack thereof is a very thin barrier. that barbarism is the human condition is depressing.

When a communal crime against hindus like Godhra occurs, usually, there is no response at all and the criminals get away with murder (think Coimbatore bomb blasts – no death sentences, Marad massacre, Wandhama massacre, Brindabanghat massacre, etc).

Dizzydesi, a total of around 40 people died as a result of the three massacres you mentioned. The Coimbatore blast left another 40 dead. Even in total they can hardly be compared to the Gujarat riots. Also if terrorist attacks happen in India, we should agitate to get the government to take them seriously. That is how civilized people behave: not go on a random tribalistic killing spree.

I admit there is political interference in criminal cases in India: the politicians get to play both sides against each other and reap the dividends. But do you think the average muslim has the police and judiciary in their pocket. Do you think they get more respect at the police thana. They are treated even worse. The perpetrators of Godhra did not suffer in the Gujarat riots: completely innocent people did. How can you possible think that is okay? Can muslims be substituted for one another at random? Ek nahi to doosra?

Pravin (#45 and #54). Very well said. I agree with every word.

I read some of the transcripts on tehelka.com, I couldnt help feeling that they are trying to put a spin instead of a unbiased report. On the pogrom itself, I am not surprised if Modi actually provided ammo to kill the muslims. Like they say one thing leads to another, and burning a train full of hindus is reasons enough. (not that I am justifying any of this, but I am not blind to the social-dynamics in India)

Anyone remember the Babri masjid case? well I experienced it first hand. Everything was peaceful until Mulayam Singh (then the Chief Minister of UP) ordered the police to shoot at the reportedly peaceful karsevaks. After that the masjid demolition was a certainty. There were videotapes of Mulayam shooting with a revolver at the fleeing hindus, and the VHP had trailers running through the city which showed the video ad infinitum.

By the time Godhra happened and I was in college, we were like what the f$%#? and who cares. We went out to party that night as usual, we were the other India who didnt care if it was a hindu or muslim dead on the streets. Content, happy and numb.

Just get some perspective for God sake. America has caused a masacre of more than half a million Iraqis and has caused 25% of the population to abandon their homeland and brought untold misery to those unfotunate who remain there. Yet this government was voted into power again. So from the same logic are all americans evil?? It is your tax dollars that is continuing the carnage there, yet in the burst of holier than thou emotion you didnt move out of the country, did you?? Do you have the courage to call Bush the same ??? and did you beat up some Americans who defended the Iraq war??? Heck, for all we know you might be voting these people in power.

The difference between Bush and Narendra Modi - Zilch. Both engage in systematic killing of the 'other'. Incidentally the other in both cases is Muslim.

Amardeep says, """
Fair enough. I've also encountered a fair number of folks in the U.S. (not just Gujaratis) who downplay the violence in 2002, saying it was "understandable." It's easy to do that when you're at a distance. """"

My response --- Amardeep I am shocked by the killings of innocents. There can be no justification of killings of innocents and has to be condenmed and justice has to done.

Having said that we need to ponder why did this happen in the first place. How can we stop it again from happening and bring about communal amity.

The truth is that there are many Muslim issues of historical atrocities on Hindus that are still unresolved.
Muslim invaders and rulers have destroyed tens of thousands of Hindu temples, killed an estimated 20-50 million Hindus, raped, pillage and savaged Hindus over the last 800 years.

These are unresolved issues -- which so far nobody including the muslims, the pseudo secular government, media and other mainsteam institutions have openly dealt with and prefer push under the rug.

Negationism and the Muslim Conquests
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/5142/negislamindia.html

It is preferable that Modi should go and imperative that the perpetrators of the carnage be brought to justice. But for any long term solution --- we need to address all these issues within the context of Islamic intolerance and atrocities on Hindus which even today continues in Bangladesh, Pakistan and Kashmir (300,000 kicked out of their homelands)

The truth is that there are many Muslim issues of historical atrocities on Hindus that are still unresolved. Muslim invaders and rulers have destroyed tens of thousands of Hindu temples, killed an estimated 20-50 million Hindus, raped, pillage and savaged Hindus over the last 800 years.

These are unresolved issues -- which so far nobody including the muslims, the pseudo secular government, media and other mainsteam institutions have openly dealt with and prefer push under the rug.

This comment should not be dismissed out of hand...there's some truth there...India can not move forward until some of these issues are addressed rather than ignored or hush-hushed. That being said, the POLITICISATION of these issues, the use of these issues to further any particular party's agenda or electoral success, or the violent outcomes that often result, should be condemned in no uncertain terms, and not tolerated at all. Honest, open dialogue is the way to go.

These are unresolved issues -- which so far nobody including the muslims, the pseudo secular government, media and other mainsteam institutions have openly dealt with and prefer push under the rug.

Venkat - pray what do you suggest be done about historical muslim invaders? And what is your suggestion for the Kashmir problem?

Yes a lot of anger in recent times has stemmed from the pandering politics of parties like the Congress and the UP mini ones. The commies too have been accused of the same in the past. This definitely needs to be addressed but voting for a party that allows killing is not your solution. The current India political scene is quite sad actually. Instead I believe the solution is education. A big part of India's muslim population is poor and uneducated. Educating these muslims will allow them to stop falling for pandering politics (it ultimately hurts them too) and thus reduce the pandering that happens. It will also allow them to become a part of the middle class and become less dogmatic in their beliefs. They will also interact more with the Hindus and vice versa and the feelings of us and them may hopefully reduce. This article may be of interest.

When a communal crime against hindus like Godhra occurs, usually, there is no response at all and the criminals get away with murder (think Coimbatore bomb blasts – no death sentences, Marad massacre, Wandhama massacre, Brindabanghat massacre, etc).

Dizzydesi, a total of around 40 people died as a result of the three massacres you mentioned. The Coimbatore blast left another 40 dead. Even in total they can hardly be compared to the Gujarat riots. Also if terrorist attacks happen in India, we should agitate to get the government to take them seriously. That is how civilized people behave: not go on a random tribalistic killing spree.

Here's the problem. People are always bringing up past atrocities as if there is a tally with a credit and debit columns for death. Coimbatore blasts were small but the psycological effects were massive and affects Muslims as well as Hindus. Any terrorist act, small or great should be dealt with immediately and thoroughly. Or else, there are bad elements in our political system and in religious organizations who will use the injustice to spread mistrust and fear.

How about we stop bringing up previous attacks while discussing any attack. Besides this is huge enough for anyone to get his head around the facts and leaves me particularly nauseous.

One more thing...Even though it made me nauseous, I went to Tehelka site and read the issue about the massacre. Have the courage to do the same. By defending these perpetrators, it is not hindus/hinduism we are defending. It is something else.

How about we stop bringing up previous attacks while discussing any attack. Besides this is huge enough for anyone to get his head around the facts and leaves me particularly nauseous.

I think it is tough to not bring up past attacks. But I'm amused by the folks who bring history to the table in the case of Muslims and ignore it in the case of Dalits / caste atrocities. So Is it Ok for the Dalits to take revenge on some unknown upper caste folks for the past atrocities (and sometimes even current)?.

rasudha
*****Here's the problem. People are always bringing up past atrocities as if there is a tally with a credit and debit columns for death. ******

Obviously past atrocities are very relevant. Why can't you talk of resolving unresolved issues? Wouldn't that be the way to go.
As someone mentioned "open dialogue"

Why is there no open dialogue?

There is a lot to be learnt from the germans -- they openly accept their nazi past, have made amends for it and ensure that it will be never ever repeated. That is the way to go for national reconciliation.

The Japanese so far have shown no remorse in their atrocities on Chinese, Koreans and other Asians during WW2. That continuously dogs them. Unfortunately in Indian scenario we are following the Japanese example.

Rasuda, and lastly why should I forget the atrocities heaped on my Hindu ancestors??? What is the guarantee it will not repeat. I look at my co-religionists in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir and Bangladesh -- I see them continuously suffering.
Millions of them -- displaced, refugees, Hindu ladies kidnapped, raped, forcibly convereted, temples destroyed. 1000 times worse than Gujarat riots.

Rasuda, this is happening today, here and now. I demand justice. The Gujarat terror should not go unpunished. But if you ask Hindus to forget the past (and present Muslim atrocities), I see you blatantly siding with the Muslims and covering up their terror.

That is no way to create a peaceful, harmonious, multicultural, multireligious society. Justice has to be fair and even handed.
Gujarat riots did not occur out of the blue. If you do not deal with the causes, there is no way you can resolve it.

How about we stop bringing up previous attacks while discussing any attack. Besides this is huge enough for anyone to get his head around the facts and leaves me particularly nauseous ******

RC
I am adamantly opposed to the Iraq war. However, I do not see how you can compare a war - albeit a very unjustified and poorly run one - with state sponsored mass murder. In Gujarat, people organized themselves and systematically decimated other people, with what seems to have been tacit approval from the very government whose duty it was to protect BOTH groups of people.

What is comparable is how the US government has yet to bring to justice those who were involved in atrocities such as Haditha, Abu Ghraib, just as the Indian government is yet to do anything about people like Babu Bajrangi (please don't tell me 8 months in prison is any response to what he himself has admitted to doing and will do again given the opportunity).

It is comments like this:
"personally though, the retaliation that occurred against the Muslim community as a whole in the aftermath of Godhra was too broad-based and too violent for my taste"

which truly disturb me. As Amardeep said "And what kind of retaliation would have been 'to your taste'?"

A big part of India's muslim population is poor and uneducated.

Educating these muslims will allow them to stop falling for pandering politics (it ultimately hurts them too) and thus reduce the pandering that happens. It will also allow them to become a part of the middle class and become less dogmatic in their beliefs.

If you are trying to say that {education}={less indoctrination/more rational thinking}--> [will lead to]{more peace/less killing}, then sadly, it's not quite borne out by events in this world, and real life is much more complex.

Why do people bring up dalit issues in Hindu-Muslim conflicts?

venkat,

You want to ask someone about what happened 800 years ago ask whoever did it 800 years ago. I'm a Hindu born and bred in Coimbatore. I know what happened in Coimbatore. I follow the news. What I don't like is murderers in Ahmedabad using Coimbatore or Godra as an excuse to rape and murder innocents. I hate people who bring up other events as a justification. You would too if you really thought about it. Don't you want people who murdered more than a thousand poor, innocent, INDIANS and turned Gujarat into a graveyard brought to justice? Do you want to support these people? Here is a case where there is ample, self-confessed, evidence to this genocide. Lets talk about bringing these perpetrators to justice. When time comes we can discuss other instances.

It is precisely this kind of thinking (on both sides - Hindu and Muslim)that has us in the mess that we are in:

"and lastly why should I forget the atrocities heaped on my Hindu ancestors??? What is the guarantee it will not repeat."

It is like a game of Chicken.

to keep to the most uncontroversial)? also another one (kissinger) is pretty successful, i hear (listen to the nixon tapes about his orders in vietnam and cambodia).

It is simply unbelievable how some people can take past muslim atrocities and use that as justification as to why people condone killings of innocent Muslims. I hope you guys get treated like crap by whites over here to get a taste of your own medicine. Oh by the way, I put myself in the position of the Gujarati Hindus. Guess what. I wont treat Modi as a hero. I would actually be pissed that he did not focus all his minions efforts at finding the real killers of the train victims and condoned the butchering of innocent kids and children. I fyou want justice, shoudnt that be the focus? Or does modi not have the guts to deal with real Islamic fanatics? With the mess created, you will probably never know all the people involved. And if the central government denied your state justice, then nothing is stopping your BJP guys in threatening the Congress politicians who are trying to cover up. But noo. your heroes do not have the guts to do that. They were made fools of by the Islamic terrorists who hijacked Indian Airlines. And like I said, it is a lot worse when a government takes part in killings compared to random gangs. When a gang does it, it invites reprisals. When the government is part of it, it creates more terrorists. What did this hero of yours(as many American Gujaratis seem to treat Modi) do for you in getting justice for the Hindu victims of the train fire? Economy is no excuse to praise a guy. Hitlerites liked to see the trains run on time. So what.

Some of you have mentioned that this will help Modi get re-elected. I am not too sure about that. The last time around the elections were held shortly after Godhra and the ensuing riots. Tempers were still running high among the hindus so they rallied around BJP and Modi. Now that it has been more than 5 years, isn't it possible that some of perpetrators of the riots feel remorseful (I do not mean the assholes like this Bajrangi chap but the young toughs who got swept away in the madness) and might not vote for Modi again. Not that Congress in power anything to gloat about.

Rasudha #72

I think you have said it very well.

thanks # 77

If only we can convince Indians to think of themselves as humans first and not look at religious identities, they would be more outraged when atrocities are committed.

Rasuda, and lastly why should I forget the atrocities heaped on my Hindu ancestors??? What is the guarantee it will not repeat.

If you are Hindu, there is a chance one of your ancestors engaged in caste violence. How would you feel that if some other caste guy in retaliation for some murder kills YOUR son or YOUR daughter or one of your parents even though your family had NOTHING to do with whatever incident triggered him and he knows it that you are innocent. BUt he did it to make him feel good. Would you find it understandable evne if you don't like it? Am I taking it too far by making it personal? No, because you brought it on yourself by personalizing it with the statement above.

And what point are you making??? When you bring up a scenario, back it up with what you would consider a course of action. If the scenario repeated, you have TWO options . 1) Would you want to hunt down the train killers? or 2)You take the easy and reprehensible way out and just gtake a bunch of your friends and kill a family and not even humanely(how about burning, or some other slow death). Should muslims want to kill themselves since a lot of Indian muslims had Hindu ancestors(not all muslim conversion were done in the same century).

Do you even have a clue who your ancestors are? I can't trace mine past 5 or 6 generations. This is how you deal with unresolved issues. Any new problems come up with Muslim terrorists - deal with those terrorists. If you want adovcate doing what Israel does - send the Mossad to hunt down terrorists and commit revenge killings - be my guest. People can disagree, but at least it is to the point you address.

I think a different perspective of a guy, who lived through those days might be helpful to others to clear their thoughts out. Have you ever imagined yourself confined to your society for 4 months? Have you ever imagined yourself waking up in the middle of night by hearing mob noises for continuous 4 months? Have you ever seen your parents faces worried about your home-return once you step out of your house? Have you ever slept after hearing gun shots right at your door steps?

So all you intellectuals... please imagine this once and then write these here. I've been through that and let me just say it was not civil. It was not even human and I'm among those who condemned Godhra train attack just because human beings were killed in that incident. Please don't make Gujarat a laboratory for the progroms.

So long as the dalit problem exists, Hindus have little moral weight in demanding "justice" for what happened hundreds of years ago. The same guys demanding "justice" are the ones who rip down Ambedkar staues in India. They will cunningly rationalize all the dalit atrocities and claim dalits are the ones misbehaving.

The truth is that there are many Muslim issues of historical atrocities on Hindus that are still unresolved.
Muslim invaders and rulers have destroyed tens of thousands of Hindu temples, killed an estimated 20-50 million Hindus, raped, pillage and savaged Hindus over the last 800 years.

This comment should not be dismissed out of hand...there's some truth there...India can not move forward until some of these issues are addressed rather than ignored or hush-hushed.

Thats a very unhealthy sentiment. It should be dismissed out of hand because it is being used as a justification or providing context while none exists. These riots in Gujarat had nothing to do with what happened 800 years ago unless you believe there is some connection between gang raping the 11 year old daughter of your rickshaw-puller neighbor and the Islamic invasion which happened 800 years back. Do you believe that the mobs who were raping/killing innocent Sikhs in the riots in Delhi in 84 had unresolved issues?

Dalits were involved in the Gujarat pogrom and are equally blamable.. They seem to be caught mid way or were they directly involved. Someone can clarify.

You people, who supports killing of people (either muslims/hindus), you despise me. You disgust me. you are the most uncivilized and disgusting people on this face of earth.

Zahir, I share your disgust. Pravin, I echo your every word too. The apologists posting here --- shame, shame, shame on you forever.

The apologists posting here --- shame, shame, shame on you forever.

I second your disgust. Shame on them indeed.

These visitations of evil will keep happening in India in the future. Because unlike nations like Germany who face up to the beast inside their history, India never learns, never admits, never looks into the mirror, and even in the face of pure evil, still grumbles and makes apologia. India will keep saying how great she is, what a wonderful democracy she is, what a superpower, that allows its powerful to carry out satanic evil on innocents, and there will be apologists, and people will be in denial. Shame, shame, shame.

And some Indians in the diaspora will live lives of comfort, security in which they will never face insecurity, bigotry manifested to the degree that it is in Gujarat. They will grow rich and secure and raise their children in the West knowing that the police will protect them, that there is a rule of law. And yet they will support morally and even financially, the enforcement of a Nazi like creed of hatred and violence and killing in their 'Motherland', while being studious in benefiting from the tolerance of liberal, secular countries that protect and cherish their minorities compared to what they support and apologise for and revel in and celebrate. To these hypocrites, these lousy, morally cockroach ridden hypocrites, shame, shame, endless shame on your wicked heads forever.

Suzy
I support you. Intolerance, terror ideologies, riots, communalism, should be severely dealt with.
Most regimes in the world practice this with varying levels. Secular nations like The US, do not inflict
it on their people, but on those living far away from them with more intensity. Some get away
with it, so do not.

Bottom line, the rule of law as established in a republic needs to be respected. In any riot situation and retaliation, the rule of law breaks down. Vigilante justice or whatever never works and makes things worse. It is up to public servants to maintain law and order and ensure due process is taken. Unfortunately, when those in public service are incompetent or corrupt, one is simply perpetuating a cycle that will weaken the foundations of government and public trust. Leading by example is exactly what happens in India, sadly though it's by setting the wrong examples rather than the lawful/ethical ones.

And yet they will support morally and even financially, the enforcement of a Nazi like creed of hatred and violence and killing in their 'Motherland',

Yep, commenter #7 was right about Godwin's Law. Suzy made a cockroach reference also for bonus points.

Please folks let's keep this discourse reasonable. We don't encourage rants here.

Sm Intern -- Commentor #7 is also the guy who thinks, in comment #52, that the Gujurat pogroms were just a bit too violent for his taste. A bit.

Yes, some things deserve a rant.

Agreed, I don't at all take sides with #7. I actually agree more with Suzy. I'm just saying that if everyone pokes an eye the whole world will go blind.

Wow, such flare of words.

If you would only expect people to come along and say - yes yes Modi is a bad man - then whats the point of this whole thread? Isnt this about solution, about assessing how people think, connecting to that human element and manage to not repeat this in near future?

While discussing issues like this, there is no point of departure. Pravin is making blanket accusations on whole of Gujurat. What happened also little to do with millions of common hindus in that state. They only saw most of it on TV, except for the district that was severely affected. I WILL definitely make a comparision between what happened in gujurat to what US did with Iraq. Both the leaders got re-elected.

There might myriad of reasons why the public choose to keep them in power, and there are some commentators who were giving their input as to what those reasons could be. Then the other party would give a outcry that they must all be ashamed of themselves. Some one would blame whole of India for that senseless act of a few hundred people, not withstanding that the (then) prime minister of India appologizing for it. Is this really discussion?

Please dont let your emotions flare up so much. Thats all I'd say.

Comment 52 has validity except for its "that the Gujurat pogroms were just a bit too violent for his taste."

Rants are fine but more need are solutions. The Hindus or the people involved should do their part and do prayashchit.

OK, I just watched the video. Chilling and disturbing. That guy has lost his humanity. He's a monster. The blood of so many innocents is on his hands. He will not have peace in the end. It was truly disgusting and gut-churning. The Gujarat pogroms were indefensible.

BUT...the thought that occured to me while watching, is that he is a mirror-image of Islamic fundamentalist types in Pakistan and the Middle-East (or for that matter in India). He is indirectly a creation of the very thing he hates and rails against. His whole way of thinking, of looking at other humans belonging to a different religion, of wanting to do violence against those people...is something that he learned from fanatical Muslims themselves...because this was never part of the Gujarati culture. It's like if you take a sweet kid, and treat him nastily his whole childhood...you'll end up with a very nasty adult. In the same way, whether based on facts or paranoia, myths or history, reality or imagination, this man has become consumed with hatred and fear. It's horrible.

These visitations of evil will keep happening in India in the future. Because unlike nations like Germany who face up to the beast inside their history, India never learns, never admits, never looks into the mirror, and even in the face of pure evil, still grumbles and makes apologia. India will keep saying how great she is, what a wonderful democracy she is, what a superpower, that allows its powerful to carry out satanic evil on innocents, and there will be apologists, and people will be in denial. Shame, shame, shame.

i agree with the basic sentiment (or feeling) expressed in this paragraph, but i don't quite like the excessive use of metaphor and collective imagery. nations don't have "minds" or "brains", they are not unitary actors, they don't "act" as individuals do; "india" does not "say" or "do" anything. also there is no "collective" consciousness called "india" that "grumbles", "learns", "says" etc; at the same time, (and some of my pet peeves, such as the above, aside)i too believe that the apologists should be ashamed of themselves.

I don't think I can watch the videos, because the whole thing is too damn depressing. I've read several accounts of what happened and it's just plain disgusting.

Anyone that condones the killing of innocent civilians is barbaric. And I don't think it's unfair to say that the Modi government was guilty of ethnic cleansing. The fact that the central government did nothing is even more shameful. These are freaking pogroms and should be not be even the slightest bit tolerated in a country claiming to be civilized. It's unfortunate that most who were responsible for these crimes will never be brought to justice.

The question is, how does India, as a multi-ethnic, multi-religious democracy (albeit incredibly flawed) put behind thousands of years of history? India is a history of invasion and oppression. Muslims from Arab countries invaded and killed thousands of Hindus, destroyed temples and forceably converted many (Islam and Christianity were both spread by the sword so this was standard operating procedure). Meanwhile lower castes were oppressed for possibly 1-2 thousand+ years.

Is this relevant now? No, it obviously isn't. But to many people, this kind of thing is. Maybe, education should be more honest. Dialog of past atrocities should be more open. Granted, to start anything like that - held those accountable for the violence of TODAY!

As a few have noted, these eruptions of orgies of violence are not even limited to Hindus and Muslims. We see this between castes in some states. Obviously political figures exploit and pit different groups against each other and the institutionalized corruption doesn't help in any way.

The mob mentality seems incredibly strong in India. It's one thing that has always baffled me. Relatives mentioned how these religious riots would sometimes start. Basically one guy would throw a rock. The next thing, someone says that person is Muslim (or Hindu, depending on the demographics of the community) and the next thing, the city is shut down for several days.

I would hate to imagine what would happen to Muslim communities in India, if an event the scale of 9/11 occurred though.

The mob mentality seems incredibly strong in India. It's one thing that has always baffled me.

It's cowardice, plain and simple.

All said, who can point fingers at who?

I believe BJP central government should have removed Modi at that time. But then, Godrha fire was supposed to be started by Pakistani terrorists or their henchmen either in retaliation for Babri Masjid blasts or to start a cummunal inferno. Which means any BJP state govt in Gujarat has a perenial possibility of such instigations.

Amitabh wrote:

His whole way of thinking, of looking at other humans belonging to a different religion, of wanting to do violence against those people...is something that he learned from fanatical Muslims themselves

That's rich. The real culprits of the Gujurat pogrom -- Muslims! They're the ones that taught Hindus how to hate!

But to add some light, not just heat, to the discussion - is there something unusually violent about South Asia. Not just mega-violence like Gujurat, or Ram Janmabhoomi, but also the regular mob violence, like this summer's mass rape in Dhanni Deeh (UP), where at least 17 Muslim women were gang raped in retaliation for a Muslim boy eloping with a upper-caste Hindu girl (again, communal violence mixed with misogyny). In the interests of communal balance, I'd note that the Mukhtara Mai case was a similar, if smaller, affair.

Compared to other, similar regions, the subcontinent is one giant Rwanda, always simmering, occasionally blowing up. Nigeria doesn't have the same levels of violence, nor does Indonesia, Egypt, the Balkans, or other multi-ethnic states. And its certainly not just Muslim-Hindu -- Mob violence is used against lower castes, tribals, shia versus sunni, and even occassionally between linguistic groups (see 1971).

So, a good topic for Sepiamutiny: Why are Desis such bloody awful people?

To get an idea on how other desis think you can also check comments in rediff.com on this subject where more than 1000 comments have been been filed.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/oct/25godhra.htm

Whatever happened in Gujrat was just unbelivable..but anybody who use incidences like these to trash hindus in India should ask themselves this questions and answer it honestly..

What would happen to all the hindus in India if the population ratio of Hindu and Muslims was reverse?

I totally agree with Pravin (#54).

I think the mob mentality isn't restricted mostly to Indians. Look at the Nazis of Germany (Krisstal Nacht), the lynching mobs/KKK in the southern USA, and so forth. A mob uprising can take place anytime in any part of the world.

What is also sickening about the killing of innocent Hindus and innocent Muslims is that it took place in Gandhi's ancesteral home.

Pravin is making blanket accusations on whole of Gujurat.

I admitted to a generalization. Prove me wrong. I actually want to be proven wrong. All I am seeing so far is not a denial of my generalizations, but indignation that I am generalizing. I am sure there are quite a few Gujaratis out there that are opposed to what happened. But if I do not see any instances of denial, I am going to have to assume that such people are in a small minority. Give us some anecdotes, links. Anything to make me change my opinion.

Comparisons to Iraq war not valid. Iraq war is mostly collateral damage(which I do not condone either). Also, there is significant visible opposition to the war among Americans now. And even back then , there was a significant minority that hated Bush, Cheney and the neocons for their reckless policies. If you can show me there is significant dissension among Gu