NDTV reports Dwivedi is the Ahmedabad collector [link].

India is turning into a banana republic. I hope better sense prevails.

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070030824&ch=10/26/2007%2010:46:00%20PM

Moments after the channels started beaming the expose, the state government got into action mode. The District Magistrate of Ahmedabad, Dhananjay Dwivedi — who is also the district election officer — directed all cable networks not to show channels like CNN-IBN, IBN-7 and Aaj Tak — the channels that were showing the expose.

An order issued by the Ahmedabad District Magistrate and District Election Officer Dhananjay Dwivedi said: "From 19:30 hours (IST), onwards, dated 25.10.07, there are programmes like Tehelka-Aaj Tak Khulasa, Operation Kalank and Gujarat ka Sach being telecast on Aaj Tak and IBN7 depicting visuals and statements of people pertaining to the 2002 communal riots. As per Clause 5 of the Cable TV Network Regulation, 1995, no entity can broadcast or re-broadcast any programme, which is not as per programming code."

This is other related news..

http://in.news.yahoo.com/071015/139/6lyvr.html

Ahmedabad, Oct 15 (ANI): The Election Commission (EC) today ordered the transfer of Gujarat Director General of Police (DGP) P C Pande, who was Ahmedabad Police Commissioner during the 2002 post-Godhra riots, ahead of the State Assembly elections scheduled to be held in December.

Seven other senior officials have also been transferred.he EC directed that none of the eight would be posted at any election-related work.

Pande had come under a cloud over the 2002 communal violence. The 1970-batch IPS officer is said to be close to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi.

The EC has sought from the State government a panel of three "suitable officers" by Tuesday evening to choose the new DGP.

The EC also ordered transfer of Ahmedabad Police Commissioner J Mahapatra, Deputy Inspector General of Police (Border Range) I M Desai, Superintendent of Police (Patan) J N Rajgor, SP (Rajkot) N D Solanki and SP (Tapi) S K Gadhavi.

Collector of Valsad D H Brahmbhatt and Collector of Gandhinagar Sonal Mishra were also transfered.

Meanwhile, the EC is conducting ''vulnerability mapping'' of areas and persons in all the 182 Assembly constituencies in Gujarat for polls to be held on December 11 and December 16.

"Under this process we will also identify persons or groups who could cause hurdles during the elections," said Dhananjay Dwivedi, District Election Officer and Ahmedabad Collector.

Now look at how "secularists" are going to spin this.

So the first news item says Dhananjay Dwiwedi ordered the ban and the second news item from a few days before talks about the same guy ordering the transfer of police commissioner because he was close to Modi..

For ''secularists", Dhananjay Dwiwedi is a "communalist" and the one appointed by Modi in the first case and the same person was a "secularist" a few days back..

:-)

Is the Clause 5 of Cable TV Network Regulation applicable to Youtube videos or cell phone MMS-es? How will they manage to control those? Honestly, I wouldn't normally believe that this could be tolerated. Too bad it isn't a cricket match they are taking off the air; in that case you would have people out in the streets. Sigh!

Its so pathetically stupid.

Are they going to block youtube as well? Or do they think people wont think of going to the internet. Ahmedabad has a very good internet penetration, and this action of the government will just get the Tehelka news more credibility and publicity. I don't think Modi will be able to take so much heat. What would be interesting to see is if BJP makes him take the fall or stands squarely behind him - which might *completely* blow away any muslim / liberal hindu votes that it could have gotten.

Whoever was behind this banning just took things to a very different level. Hope someone at NYTimes/WaPo/WSJ covers it - at least because of the official censorship angle. They did cover then there was a block on the net for a few days in india last year.

Does anyone have any contacts at the big newspapers that can forward them the story to get it even more coverage?

Of course , the BJP , masters of shrill rhetoric and spin are already at work , claiming , among other things , that Tehelka should be called the CIA - Congress Investigation Agency , and that nobody is talking about the 60 people burnt on the train at Godhra .
All this on a just-concluded TV news interview on CNN IBN ( I am in Bangalore these days , and we can access these channels ) .

What really saddens me is , that even after the truth comes out like this , there is a very very real possibility of Narendra Modi , the butcher , winning the upcoming election ( by the way , another reason the BJP are claiming the expose is suspect - why come out with it just before elections ? ) .
The reason is the overwhelming support the Hindus of Gujarat gave the pogrom . Even a Gujarati Jain in another city , another state , told me " These bastards had it coming for a long time now - I am really really glad they were taught a lesson " . Makes me puke when people tell me they are vegetarian because they believe killing animals is a sin . What a joke .

I was studying in Ahmedabad during the riots , and have seen with my own eyes local politicians guide rampaging mobs to loot and then burn shops owned by Muslims . A posse of policemen stood nearby after greeting the politico . Seeing a friend trying to surreptitiously film it , the cops came and shooed him away .
The skies were always grey , and I would keep thinking the monsoon was on its way , only to realise that it was all the smoke from fires literally everywhere the eye could see ( we were on a campus surrounded by Muslim areas )
A school I was volunteering at was turned into a daycare centre for riot victims' children - I met kids who had seen their parents murdered before their eyes , mothers and sisters raped , houses burnt down . A little girl named Tabassum was the saddest - she just stopped speaking - turned into a five-year old zombie .

And none of this is going to make a bit of a difference - Narendra Modi will win a landslide , the smug Patels and Shahs and Zhadafiyas and Bajrangis will twirl their moustaches a little bit more and smile smile smile every day .

Amardeep:

Though it has become a fashion to pile everything on Modi, he has become the trash can for all kinds of labels.. I think in this case, "media ban" is the Election commission's order. (If not the Central, than the State Election commissioner).

Once the date of elections are announced the CM becomes a lame duck. and the officers are only answerable to the Election Commission that typically toes the line of the Central government of that time (atleast in the appointment/transfer of officers).

Though it has become a fashion to pile everything on Modi, he has become the trash can for all kinds of labels.. I think in this case, "media ban" is the Election commission's order. (If not the Central, than the State Election commissioner).

for clarification - it was not even the state election commission, rather the district collector, who becomes the district election officer once the schedule is announced.

Three television news channels were banned from telecast by cable operators by Ahmedabad collector Dhananjay Trivedi, who is also the district election officer, on the ground that it could incite violence in the communally-sensitive district.

In that case , does he have the authority to blackout tv channels in his district as a collector ?? since the election model code of conduct doesn't seem to say anything on electronic media.

Now they care about law and order! Now they care about not inciting tensions! Where the f*** have they been for 5 years? If they really wanted to do something, they would have prosecuted the perps years ago. Communal tensions exist anyway.

I am really struggling with this issue.

It is entirely possible that broadcasting this expose will further fan the flames, lead to rioting by muslims, and loss of life. If you were governing the state today, what would you do?

I personally would make sure I had the security forces in place (and I mean non-partisan security, perhaps a paramilitary force). If I didn't think security forces were in place, I too would move to stop the broadcast.

Gujarat has had no process for healing itself. If anything, we have only seen a slow festering. I don't see anything positive coming out of this expose at this time.

How can the district collector ban a channel for all of Gujarat? Am I missing something?
Also, the TOI is reporting that the channels were banned only in Ahmedabad.

It may be a case of overzealous cable operators.

Sakshi, all I know is that the CNN-IBN piece said "most parts of Gujarat." I presume that contradiction should get sorted out pretty soon as people in other towns are contacted.

If it's not really close to a statewide ban, this starts to look less ominous (well, a *little* less ominous), because it might merely be the action of a local official, not a systematic ban.

(Though I did notice that one of the links above noted that NDTV has been added to the ban list preemptively.)

How can the district collector ban a channel for all of Gujarat? Am I missing something? Also, the TOI is reporting that the channels were banned only in Ahmedabad.

I think the "district collector" who has this dual role of being the district electoral officer after the elections are announced ordered the ban for that particular district and the "secular" media goes to town with the headlines (See NDTV) "After sting Modi takes on media".

The collector who ordered the ban has also said this, refer to the link in my earlier comment..

Meanwhile, the EC is conducting ''vulnerability mapping'' of areas and persons in all the 182 Assembly constituencies in Gujarat for polls to be held on December 11 and December 16.

"Under this process we will also identify persons or groups who could cause hurdles during the elections," said Dhananjay Dwivedi, District Election Officer and Ahmedabad Collector.

How do they block out cable news? I mean, there are tons of satellite dishes around? Even if they stop the cable distributors, there are plenty of private/illegal dishes too, right? An the internet?

This is so stupid.

the smug Patels and Shahs

The Gujarati-bashing is getting ridiculous.

If any one is interested, CNN-IBN and IBN7 are available for free live streaming on the IBN website: http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/video_streaming.php

How do they block out cable news? I mean, there are tons of satellite dishes around? Even if they stop the cable distributors, there are plenty of private/illegal dishes too, right? An the internet?

When cable news is made illegal, only criminals will have cable news. :-D

For all my bad humor, I have actually not had cable for several years now, relying on the web instead. But my parents in India still get most of their news from the TV rather than the newspapers or the web. I suppose the cable ban would affect a lot of people who:

1. own a TV
2. get cable
3. don't use the internet much or at all
4. are law-abiding (otherwise they can steal cable from somewhere).

India Shining!

I am hoping all this does not lead to further inflaming of communal passions and communal riots.
It is not unlikely that the end result of the tehelka expose might be more violence and unrest.

I don't know what to say. The videos are going to leak out, no matter what. Blocking the original broadcasts will only result in word of mouth and rumors. Ultimately it was rumors that resulted in chaos the last time around (I was there in Gujarat in 2002).
All I can do is hope that sanity prevails. The track record sure ain't encouraging.

if you can put out a warrant for taslima nasreen for "inflaming" communal tension in India by writing about the institutional racism against Hindus in bangladesh you can block this expose which is even more inflammatory. Mind you that she was in India at this time. Same action, different political party.

are the hateful remarks against Gujarati Hindus going to be challenged, or are they all deserving of this? where is this board going?

It is a pity that people like Amardeep are involving in free for all anti-Gujarati sentiments. Almost like typical high school level Punjabi - Gujarati conflict taken to whole new level.

Some people have already explained that DC has taken anti-BJP decision recently - so does it even occur to you anti-Gujarathis that may be, just may be there is indeed genuine reason to ban channels in an already volatile environment?

In other words, there is indeed high chance that situation will get out of control by beaming those - akin to LA burning after after Rodney King incident which was fuelled by repeated telecast on the TV? May be DC wants to make sure all bases are covered before things hit the TV?

the smug Patels and Shahs

The Gujarati-bashing is getting ridiculous.

It is funny that you chose to overlook what she wrote about her own experience; instead you latched on to that one word and turned a first hand account into Gujarati bashing..

Am I Gujarat-bashing when I say '...the Patels and the Shahs and the Zhadafiyas and the Bajrangis ...' ? I really dont think so . Its convenient to just pick two names out of the four , two names that happen to be almost generic Gujarati names and term it Gujarat-bashing .

It is really really really obvious that I am referring to the local goons/politicians featured in the Tehelka expose . Please dont twist / selectively pick my words to suit your agenda .

And no , I dont even accept the tag of 'Hindu-basher' - I stand by my words when I say that people of many other communities in Gujarat - Jains , Dantewada tribals , Marwaris , etc - were either actively involved or complicit in the pogrom . Maybe ' multi-religious basher ' ?

The possibility of riots / unrest starting up after the airing of the Tehelka expose is quite remote - many small towns and villages have been ethnically cleansed of Muslims . Larger towns and cities have been very effectively ghetto-ised . These Muslim areas are the blind spots of the administration - crumbling infrastructure , rampant unemployment and poverty - and the worst , broken spirits . There simply isnt the money power or even the muscle power to riot - at the most , expect some stone throwing and a procession or two . And its an open secret that the BJP , with or without Modi , is going to come back to power . Those who speak up now will be made to pay for it later .
The only reaction I see from the Muslim communities ( there wasnt any distinction made between Bohris , Memons , etc when the riots took place , so most Muslim communities have reacted the same way ) of Gujarat is the continuation of emigration out of Gujarat , maybe even an upswing ?

Not bad for the BJP and the Sangh Parivar - for organizations known more for their internal power struggles and lack of organizational strength , some things are working out just fine for them .

Nice Orwellian touch at #3, Ponniyin Selvan!!!!!

Now look at how "secularists" are going to spin this.

So the first news item says Dhananjay Dwiwedi ordered the ban and the second news item from a few days before talks about the same guy ordering the transfer of police commissioner because he was close to Modi..

For ''secularists", Dhananjay Dwiwedi is a "communalist" and the one appointed by Modi in the first case and the same person was a "secularist" a few days back...

Either you qualify for a top position at the Ministry of Truth, or you are just a bit addled about the designations in the Indian administrative hierarchy (I'll apologise for my snarkiness if the latter is the case). First off, there's a big difference between the terms Election Commissioner (ECm), the Election Commission (EC), and Election Officer (EO). The District Collector, by virtue of being the head of the district-level civilian administration, is the ex-officio EO for his district (and he is not the ECm) . Thus, the EO signs all circulars relating to the organization of polling within his district, on matters that lie within his jurisdiction. This brings me to the 1st emphasised sentence in Ponniyin's comment: it is the EC that ordered the transfers of those officers. In particular, Dhananjay Dwiwedi did not order the transfer of the then-DGP P.C. Pande, nor did he have any role (except signing the circulars in three of the cases) in the transfer of the other five police officers named.

Re the 2nd emphasised sentence: I haven't seen any evidence of Dhananjay Dwiwedi being spun into a "secularist" (except in Ponniyin's mind). This (in Ponniyin's own currency) is what I have to say: look at how Ponniyin Selvan is spinning this :-)

I don't carry a brief for either the "secularists" (whoever they may be), or the "communalists". My point, Ponniyin, is that this whole affair is wretched enough; we don't want more wretchedness in the form of red-herrings like the one you've attempted to launch.

Maybe Sujatha, you're absolutely right.

What everyone persistently ignores - the hopeless left-wing and the disingenuous right-wing - is that in India, riots rarely ever just happen. A great deal of excellent academic work has begun to emerge from the American academy on riot-production, and the consensus of anyone who actually studies it is that riots need two factors to occur: an institutionalized riot-system, a communal discourse and the absence of a resolute state administration. It totally gives the lie to any government - BJP, Congress or regional - that affects innocence when large-scale rioting (deaths over a hundred) occurs.

Muslims are not going to be rioting in Gujarat under any circumstances. If they do, it will look like it did when the government bulldozed a 200-year old dargah in Baroda - erratic and barely lethal.

GB,

I read the news report and Dwivedi was speaking as the voice of the Election commission. Moreover, the officials perceived to be close to BJP / Modi are shunted out once the Election commission takes charge. I don't believe the action of banning the media is taken under Modi's instructions (which is the point of the 'secularists').

I'd accept your position if there is truth in it. There is nothing to suggest that Dwivedi took this action to support Modi. First, I have a doubt that the airing of the video will be detrimental to Modi/BJP. In 2002, the election commission banned any display of the "burnt train".

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/29959795.cms

NEW DELHI: The Election Commission is seriously contemplating seeking a report from the Gujarat government on the reported depiction of Godhra carnage picture by VHP in the state.
"The Chief Electoral Officer (CEO) of the state is looking into it. The Commission is keeping a close watch and may seek a report. Instructions are already in place," EC sources said, when asked to comment on reports of VHP selling T-shirts depicting the Godhra incident.
Fearing communal tension, the Election Commission had banned VHP's Padpadshahi Yatra on November 17 and prohibited usage of Godhra motif in the run up to the Gujarat assembly poll on December 12.
VHP had termed the ban as "illegal" saying the poll body had no jurisdiction to do so prior to the notification of the elections. It has also asserted that as a non-political organisation, it did not come within the purview of the EC's model code of conduct.

The problem is re-kindling 2002 is a double-edged knife. For "secularists" it reminds of the "riots" and they forget about the "burnt train" as pointed out by other commenters in the other blog. Many people don't take the Banerjee report ordered by Railways under Laloo (interim report released just before Bihar elections) terming that as an accident seriously. Even if the fire was an accident the reason so many people were prevented from coming out of the train was the stone throwing by the Muslims in that area. I don't think anyone denies that.

And I have a doubt that the release of videos is actually detrimental to Modi/BJP. Look at the muted response of Congress that is the main opposition party in Gujarat and that controls the Central government, appointed two election commissioners (of the three) though the top election commissioner is the BJP appointee.

Dwivedi had banned a Gujarati news channel for showing a political program earlier this week (before tehelka). I cannot seem to find which channel it was and what program it was? This could provide more insight into any pro/anti Modi bias. Anyone has info?

Dwivedi had banned a Gujarati news channel for showing a political program earlier this week (before tehelka). I cannot seem to find which channel it was and what program it was? This could provide more insight into any pro/anti Modi bias. Anyone has info?

That'd be interesting to know. I think people who know Gujarati can find the info. from local Gujarati newspapers and let us know.. Generally English media doesn't go into much details. My google search gave only a couple of recent news items with his name..

Re #30:

I'd accept your position if there is truth in it. There is nothing to suggest that Dwivedi took this action to support Modi.

Nor am I suggesting that that was Dwivedi's motive. Of course, that Dwivedi is batting for Modi is the view being taken by large sections of the anti-BJP commentariat here, but it's not like Dwivedi was the secularists' darling until recently, as you seem to suggest in your comment about "spin".

Nor am I suggesting that that was Dwivedi's motive. Of course, that Dwivedi is batting for Modi is the view being taken by large sections of the anti-BJP commentariat here, but it's not like Dwivedi was the secularists' darling until recently, as you seem to suggest in your comment about "spin".

Well. we could find that out if some one can ferret out more information on Dwivedi from the local Gujarati newspapers. As per Dizzydesi he has also banned some other program too prior to Tehelks..

I was studying in Ahmedabad during the riots ,

really:

are the hateful remarks against Gujarati Hindus going to be challenged, or are they all deserving of this? where is this board going?

This is Psy-op's 101, since the Congress knows that its fate is sealed in the next election.

Now the psec-media/Congress is trying to potray it in such a way that "Voting for Modi" is "Voting against the Rest of India" and Gujju's are "being" given a chance to prove it to India.

Dil pe mat lo yaar... Congress will get its clock cleaned in the next election, BJP is for forming the government in Karnataka as per the recent news reports.

@really:

To add, its not over its just the start : Some call it making the way clear for the Rahul Dynasty [becomes General secretary out of the blue, "spectates" cricket matches, accompanies Congress gang to UN, and now is in China for the "initiation" all in months..], because there was talk of Modi being a possible PM candidate..

And watch out for "sweet talk/Psyops" directed at you know "which" religion : In the next edition of NYTimes [courtesy : "Somini Sengupta"] and IHT [Amelia "Gentleman"] and don't be surprised if Teesta the "resident expert" will pitch her tent in CNN-IBN studios..

are the hateful remarks against Gujarati Hindus going to be challenged, or are they all deserving of this? where is this board going?

I think it's a fair enough statement to say "Gujarati Hindus were involved in the pogrom" (and followers of some other religions). This doesn't mean that every single one of them is a rioter or even a hater. When I heard and read about the Gujarat riots, I never though this is a valid statement. I was under the impression that these were a few (thousands) rowdies who just took the opportunity to kill people and majority of Gujarati Hindus must be aghast at all that was happening. Well, that changed when Modi got an amazing election victory shortly after that.

What does that tell you about the sentiment among a majority of the population? Not all, but a huge number of them? Very similar to this "They don't hate Americans, they only hate the American government". What the hell does that mean in a democracy? In a democracy, the government and it's actions are a indicator of the will of people (or at least the irresponsible indifference of people to atrocities that the government is involved in.

And to someone who mentioned the high school Punjabi-Gujarati rivalry above, I say two things:
1) There is no need to bring the American experience of Gujarati-Americans and Punjabi-Americans into this.
2) Amardeep is no juvenile punk but a very thoughtful person. I hope SM doesn't have to bring in a Punjabi to critize Punjabis, a Gujarati to criticize Gujaratis and a Christian to criticize Christians.

I'm not saying that Gujarati Hindus should be hated. But there is no need to disassociate Hindus/Jains from what happened. While many are completely innocent, many of them hold direct or indirect responsibility.
If the disassociation is motivated by a desire to be ultra cautious to prevent riots, I want to note that, as a majority even if blame were to falsely be ascribed to the them, they are no going to be hacked en masse.

Al_Chutiya_for_debauchery :

India is turning into a banana republic. I hope better sense prevails.

I am sorry we are not able to live up to the American standards of "Freedom of Press" or "War on Terror" [which ever suits..]

Al Jazeera [Wikipedia]

It should also be mentioned that the US administration, though applauds freedom of speech on one hand, of late has not been happy with Al Jazeera's stand on the war on Iraq. Since 9/11 there have been multiple incidents in which the US administration has been critical about Al Jazeera. In addition, the US Air Force has twice bombed Al Jazeera offices (once in Afghanistan and once in Iraq), killing employees. [2]. Also Al Jazeera was once banned from the New York Stock Exchange [3].

There is a thing called "Code of Conduct" laid out by the Election Commission. And why has the Gujarat Congress not picked up this issue like its supposed to "naturally". There is polarisation of the masses, and if there is a riot then Congress can call for the "cancellation of election" and Gujarat be put under "Presidents rule". And the Congress has a 10:1 record of putting states under presidents rule, with sheer disregard to the democratic process.

----------------

The other issue was Tehelka supposed to have released the "Sting" videos on Nov 03, 2007 and decided to release it earlier, with Sonia being in China giving her the perfect deniability, if unfortunately riots were to break out ?

Proof : http://www.tehelka.com/story_main35.asp?filename=Ne031107spycam_videos1.asp [Note : How all the video pages have the date "Nov 03, 2007" ]

------------

Regarding political affiliation of Tarun Tejpal [Tehelka]

Link : http://www.bjp.org/news/Mar1601.htm

BJP : NEWS REPORTS

Press statement issued by Shri Narendra Modi, General Secretary of the BJP
March 16, 2001

Can Congress leader Shri Arjun Singh deny this that :-

1. The father of Shri Tej Pal of Tehelka.com was a close colleague of Arjun Singh?

2. Is it not a fact that when Shri Arjun Singh became Governor of Punjab Tej Pal and his father were his right and left hands?

3. It is not a fact that he (Arjun Singh) misused his post and prestige in order to provide some work to Tej Pal in the field of journalism?

4. It is not a fact that the publicity work of Tewari Congress of Arjun Singh was being done under the guidance of Tej Pal?

5. Is it not a fact that Tej Pal was looking after the publicity department of Arjun Singh and his Tewari Congress?

6. Is it not a fact that Tej Pal had a hand in making Cricketer Manoj Prabhakar contest the Lok Sabha election from Delhi on the ticket of Tewari Congress of Arjun Singh?

7. Is it not a fact that Tej Pal used the same Manoj Prabhakar to advance his pecuniary interests and made cricket world as its target and later on the same Manoj Prabhakar was himself found guilty?

8. It is not a fact that Mathew Samuel of Tehelka is the Assistant to Tom vadakkan of Media Cell of the Congress?

(Dr. Ram Kripal Sinha)
Office Secretary

Latest update:

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/001200710272140.htm

TV blackout: Collector says his orders misinterpreted

Ahmedabad (PTI): Channels of three major TV networks was blacked out for the third day on Saturday in this district as a fallout of the Tehelka sting on post-godhra riots, even as the administration appeared to wash its hands off this controversial action.

As Aaj Talk, CNN-IBN and NDTV channels faced the ire of the government, the Ahmedabad district collector Dhananjay Dwivedi,who placed restrictions on them, said his instructions were misinterpreted. Dwivedi also sought to put onus on the cable TV operators to resume the transmission.

"The instructions were misinterpreted. It was clearly stated to the cable operators that only the particular news programme on the sting operation on the post-Godhra riot incidents and other such programmes should not be shown. There was no ban on the networks showing other programmes," Dwivedi told PTI.

Dwivedi said the instructions given three days back were very clear and inspite of this, the channels and the cable operators acted in a hasty manner and stopped transmitting any news bulletin.

"As long as they are not telecasting the communally sensitive programme and others of the same category they are welcome to resume transmission at any given time," he said.

Responding to some of Kurma's comments :

"I think it's a fair enough statement to say "Gujarati Hindus were involved in the pogrom" (and followers of some other religions). This doesn't mean that every single one of them is a rioter or even a hater. When I heard and read about the Gujarat riots, I never though this is a valid statement. I was under the impression that these were a few (thousands) rowdies who just took the opportunity to kill people and majority of Gujarati Hindus must be aghast at all that was happening. Well, that changed when Modi got an amazing election victory shortly after that."

Riots would never happen without the implicit support of people. It is not just Godhra but almost every where else. You can either try to help stop the riots (but you take a personal risk) or you can balk at the risk and not do anything about it. That is exactly what happens in every riot. People may not agree with the rioters but they dare not to confront them.

Modi won the elections after wards not because the Hindu majority had suddenly turned into hating the Muslims - it won because people were angry that no body seemed to mention or care for the fact that innocent Hindu's were killed inside a train but there was outright condemnation of the riots alone. I guess since Hindu's are the majority we need to take things in our stride even when we get attacked with impunity but when ever the same fate happens to Muslims, we have to condemn it. translation - human lives are more important when they belong to that of the minority community.

The election results was a slap in the face of the pseudo secularists who never tire of complaining how minorites are abused in India when they never get to acknowledge

a)the legitimate concerns that the majority community has or the fact that it has also been a victim of the communal riots.

b)the fact that we are more accomodating to minorites than most other countries in the world.

"What does that tell you about the sentiment among a majority of the population? Not all, but a huge number of them? Very similar to this "They don't hate Americans, they only hate the American government". What the hell does that mean in a democracy? In a democracy, the government and it's actions are a indicator of the will of people (or at least the irresponsible indifference of people to atrocities that the government is involved in."

Er Kurma... you dont really seem to understand what a democracy is. When people vote for a particular Government, they do not promise to support EVERY THING that the Govt does in their name. People make a choice that a particular party is more suitable to govern the country but this does not mean that they mortgage their freedom to have opinions to the Govt. It would nt be a democracy then.

Many people who voted for Bush in 04 are feeling terrible today for the choice they made back then. More than two thirds of the citizens in the US want the troops to be pulled out of Iraq. This is happening after they re-elected Bush ! Go figure !!

Gujaratis obviously did not have the access to all the facts that we have now - at least not in such a concrete irrefutable way. Besides, you dont seem to understand how exactly the BJP came to occupy this position of "Hindu community protector". It was precisely because of incidents like the Godhra train burnings where Hindus were attacked with impunity and were then expected to "put up" with it.

Let's assume the riots never happened. Do you seriously believe that the perpetrators of the train massacre would have been bought to justice ?? Look at the train bombings in Bombay, the attacks on Delhi, Hyderabad - have we even come close to finding the terrorists behind these killings ??

In fact I heard from my friends from Bombay that they supported the Shiv Sena during the 93 riots even if they did not agree with their tactics. They felt that if not for the Sena's rowdies, communalist Muslims would have attacked even more Hindu civilians with greater impunity. I was at first shocked to hear that, but i realized that i did not live in Bombay during those terrible times and i would not be able to feel the way they did or have access to the same facts that they did. Facts which do not get reported in the news media by the way.

There are a lot of well meaning Hindus who are down right tired of this pandering to the Muslim community and the general sense that Hindus can be taken for granted.I would love for poor Hindus to get a subsidy from the Govt to go to the holiest Hindu temple of their choice, but it would rather give subsidies to Muslims to make a trip all the way to Saudi Arabia for the Hajj. By the way does any one know if Christians get a subsidy to go to the Vatican ?

These frustrations in the Hindu community are a long time coming. I personally think the Shah Bano decision of 1986 was the final straw in the camels back. Hindus slowly started drifting to the BJP to counter this open pandering of Muslims.

It was not enough that Hindus were made foreigners in their own homeland because of the Partition and that a whole "country" was created for Pakistan , but now we have to put up with the pandering of Muslims in India too ? Where does this end ??

"I'm not saying that Gujarati Hindus should be hated. But there is no need to disassociate Hindus/Jains from what happened. While many are completely innocent, many of them hold direct or indirect responsibility."

Kurma, i would be interested to know if you would apply this exact logic to the entire Muslim community , on account of the Muslims who have known to be involved in many communal riots in India even before Godhra happened. Or the killingas that happened during the Partition ?Or does this logic apply only to the Hindus ?

What is obvious for everyone to see but no one dares to talk about is the fact that as a religious community Hindus still carry a lot of psychological scars and wounds from the Muslim invasion, rule of India, the partition of the country, right down to the vote bank politics of the last 50 years.

You are never allowed to openly discuss these feelings - if you do, you will be accused of being a communalist who is intent on stoking up riots and demonizing the Muslim community.

India has a long long way to go before it matures as a democracy. But if we want to prevent barbaric communal riots from happening, we have to understand the underlying reasons behind the Hindu Muslim tensions in the country and how people for the most part have admirably gotten along inspite of the terrible atrocities heaped on them.

Not have a condescending attitude to the Hindu community and not taking for granted would be a start. This would prevent the right wing hardliners from claiming to be the "true protectors" of the Hindus.

And none of this is going to make a bit of a difference - Narendra Modi will win a landslide , the smug Patels and Shahs and Zhadafiyas and Bajrangis will twirl their moustaches a little bit more and smile smile smile every day .

I think Modi / BJP is going to lose the election, but it would have been more to do with the anti-incumbency (BJP has been ruling for quite some time now) rather than any "secular" / "communal" issues..

Nor am I suggesting that that was Dwivedi's motive. Of course, that Dwivedi is batting for Modi is the view being taken by large sections of the anti-BJP commentariat here, but it's not like Dwivedi was the secularists' darling until recently, as you seem to suggest in your comment about "spin".

Further updates on the person who ordered the ban on the channels. You figure out if Dwivedi is batting for Modi or the secularists..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Ahmedabad_collector_a_scapegoat/articleshow/2496018.cms

GANDHINAGAR/AHMEDABAD: Ahmedabad district collector Dhananjay Dwivedi is in a spot. BJP seems to think he favours Mayawati's BSP just because he decided that all signages in Ahmedabad be coloured blue. Or did he?

BJP grabbed the opportunity provided by the banning of channels controversy, to get back at Dwivedi on Saturday and wrote to the chief electoral officer to take action against him for the ban. But TOI investigations found that the problem goes back to Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation.

BJP corporators had been allocating their discretionary budgets to make saffron signages in residential societies with their voters, while Congress corporators had been putting up green signages in their localities.

Sources in AMC said, somebody complained to Dwivedi after the election code of conduct came into force and he issued orders earlier this week asked the corporation to bring down the boards in party's signature colours.

"A couple of days back when AMC officials began to bring down boards in the BJP-dominated Khadia area, there was a clash," said an official.

Law minister Ashok Bhatt, who represents Khadia, has decided to drag Dwivedi to court because he thinks blue signages could be "promotional" for BSP. The party's flag has an elephant on blue background.

Bhatt told TOI that his son Bhushan who is a corporator, will move court against Dwivedi's order.

Bhatt said, "All signboards in the city were painted in tricolours. Someone went to the collector complaining that signboards were saffron. And Dwivedi decided to tell AMC commissioner to paint them all in blue." Dwivedi told TOI, "Somebody complained to me about the signboards in Ahmedabad and I asked AMC to have a uniform colour, they were supposed to pick the shade".

Now seizing this opportunity, BJP general secretary Jayanti Barot has complained to Election Commission.

In fact I heard from my friends from Bombay that they supported the Shiv Sena during the 93 riots even if they did not agree with their tactics. They felt that if not for the Sena's rowdies, communalist Muslims would have attacked even more Hindu civilians with greater impunity. I was at first shocked to hear that, but i realized that i did not live in Bombay during those terrible times and i would not be able to feel the way they did or have access to the same facts that they did. Facts which do not get reported in the news media by the way.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can Somewhat attest to that. My family happened to live in a south mumbai locality very close to the Muslim localities like Muhammed Ali Road and Dongri where the riots flared big time. We used to see smoke coming out of some not so distant buildings day and night during the december 93 riots.
I ve seen a few things first hand. A muslim owned matress shop in our street looted and destroyed, Ironically here, the guy leading the loot was a galli ka muslim... A Hindu man beaten mericlessly in a muslim locality... Shiv Sainiks beating and killing a couple of passerby innocent muslim youths by pelting their bodies to the ground. One family took refuge at a neighbours house because their own building, which was located in the muslim locality, was blown up with a gas cylinder by the only muslim family in the building. A lot of hindu gujaratis died in that fire. As a safety and retaliatory measure our apt complex/society had stocked up on some low profile attack ammunition (glass bottles and kerosene) in the event our building was attacked by the mob. My family felt safe in the locality since we had a shiv sainik "shaaka" right down our street and they kept a vigil on things day and night. Most of the ppl living in the neighbourhood were gujaratis and maharashtrians. And Before you think my family maybe anti muslim, my dad saved a few muslim lives (his business friends family) from being attacked by the mob risking our own lives while they were visiting us. (Most readers here maynot have experienced a real mob fury. Try watching the movie "bombay". its very close to reality) We even offered our office factory as a hiding ground to some of our muslim workers.

Anyways, the gist of it is there is no point in blaming the hindus/gujaratis as a whole or hating all muslims. It would have worked the same way in any part of the country. There is always a high probability the minorities would suffer more damage than the majority and get more print publicity for the events that took place... in a democracy. As a gujarati, I feel deeply for what happened in Gujarat and everywhere else that any minority has suffered. As with most incidents related to communal riots in India, Its always those few bad apples who pour the kerosene and the entire community suffers the consequences of their actions.

@Nizam

Muslims are not going to be rioting in Gujarat under any circumstances. If they do, it will look like it did when the government bulldozed a 200-year old dargah in Baroda - erratic and barely lethal.

Tell me more, there were approx. 300 Hindus who died excluding the ones in the Train. So I guess they all commited Hara-Kiri?. And you are bringing an irrelevant point to justify how the Municipality officials bulldozed a 200-year old dargah, under road widening measures after duly demolishing a bunch of "concrete" temples earlier. The point is Nizam, Muslim community should not have rioted to begin with, after having lost the case in the courts. How ever "erratic or barely lethal" they were as per your standards. But people died... Nice try though !

Sujatha # 27

And no , I dont even accept the tag of 'Hindu-basher' - I stand by my words when I say that people of many other communities in Gujarat - Jains , Dantewada tribals , Marwaris , etc - were either actively involved or complicit in the pogrom . Maybe ' multi-religious basher ' ?

Umm, do you have any evidence regarding the Jains' active involvement? Other than the anecdotal quote from a Gujarati Jain in #7 above

GP, Ponniyan Selvam
BJP is gunning for Dhananjay Dwivedi (who ordered the ban) according to this article in the Indian Express. Looks like the BJP figures that Tehelka will benefit them in the elections if broadcast. (Somehow, given the recent infighting, I think the BJP is channeling Franklin's together quote)

Also as Ponniyin Selvan had pointed out earlier this article in the Times of India states that BJP corporators felt that Dwiwedi was biased in favour of the Bahujan Samajwadi Party.
(I consider the TOI a rag, but consider IE a shade better than most Indian English language papers)

sorry for the late responses - I am on India time , and the alcohol here is way cheaper .

melbourne desi @ 35 : Nope , that would be the Gautam Sarabhai campus . I have mixed feelings about the Louis Kahn one ...

skept-on-earth @ 46 : Like I clarified , the violence post-Godhra had people of various communities either actively or passively supporting it . The quote from the Gujarati Jain ( who is three generations removed from Gujarat and has a very large Muslim clientèle where he lives and works now ) was mentioned as an example of how it was being condoned/justified by even the people one would least expect it from - not to bolster my statement about the carnage having a larger support base than the traditional Sangh Parivar constituency .

Again - the operative word here is some - some people of many communities actively and passively supported the pogrom . Most of the actual killing was done by mobs led from place to place by politicos who were the ones pointing out which houses and shops were to be burnt ( they had to be very specific in the most part , because pre-ghettoisation , many shops and houses were cheek by jowl ) .
As to how people of other communities , like the Jains you asked me about , were involved , I do know of some Jain landlords who provided lists and locations of Muslim shops to the people organising the burning ( their tenants told me this ). And many who supported , at a local level , their BJP politicians with money and materials . The one name I can give you is that of Nirav Jain , a Baroda-based politician ( incidentally , the one behind the somewhat recent MSU art college fracas ) . If an example Ive given is somewhat specious , I would say it was the reference to Marwaris - I know of just one who got some parts of his commercial building 'cleant out' of both Hindu and Muslim shops , apparently so that he could tear the whole thing down and build a large swanky one in its place .
I am given to suspect similar profit-seeking motives behind some of the examples of Jain and Hindu involvement .

I also met Muslim tenants of Hindu landlords who gave them a lot of material and monetary help to rebuild their shops and businesses and remain in the same commercial complexes .

Thanks, DizzyDesi and Ponniyin Selvan for this:

Also as Ponniyin Selvan had pointed out earlier this article in the Times of India states that BJP corporators felt that Dwiwedi was biased in favour of the Bahujan Samajwadi Party.

I've known the news item, that both of you have referenced, for a while now. I live in India and thus get to read Indian newspapers :-) But my point is: regardless of whom he is batting for; Dhananjay Dwivedi has never been "spun" into a secular hero before being spun into something else now. That he is being spun into a Modi supporter now is a fact -- but not necessarily by the "secularists" alone (the aggrieved broadcasters are also into this line of speculation ). My feeling, as implied in #33, is that Dwivedi isn't batting for anybody.

(I consider the TOI a rag, but consider IE a shade better than most Indian English language papers)

In my opinion, the most nuanced English-language newspaper in India today is The Hindu. The only things in the Hindu that one needs to take with a dose of salt are: a) anything written by N. Ram on Fidel Castro; and b) a good fraction of the reports filed by Hindu's Moscow correspondent Vladimir Radyuhin.

Wayfarer: Tell me more, there were approx. 300 Hindus who died excluding the ones in the Train. So I guess they all commited Hara-Kiri?. And you are bringing an irrelevant point to justify how the Municipality officials bulldozed a 200-year old dargah, under road widening measures after duly demolishing a bunch of "concrete" temples earlier. The point is Nizam, Muslim community should not have rioted to begin with, after having lost the case in the courts. How ever "erratic or barely lethal" they were as per your standards. But people died... Nice try though !

why do you see hara-kiri as the only possible cause of death apart from being slain by marauding muslim rioters?

most of the hindu dead were rioters felled by police bullets. additionally, many would've obviously been killed while on the attack. it's not as if every muslim victim went quietly without any resistance.

there were reports of helpless dalit hindus being killed at random by muslims, but i don't think they would've been terribly high in number.

i'm not saying that muslims are somehow morally above rioting, but in this case your comments don't hold much water.

GB

Re: the Hindu, dont overlook their biased and one-sided coverage of China. Their gal in China, Pallavi Aiyer, has written more than a 100 articles, mostly ultra-positive in every way. Not a single one addresses the extinction of Tibetan culture via ethnic replacement, lack of representational democracy, lack of individual rights for expression and travel, han hegemony and control, massive use of capital punishment. The sad thing is that few people seem to write in to complain about this, while 1000s are happy to demonstrate against the US or silly Danish Cartoons.

@Maybe Sujatha

And many who supported , at a local level , their BJP politicians with money and materials . The one name I can give you is that of Nirav Jain , a Baroda-based politician ( incidentally , the one behind the somewhat recent MSU art college fracas ).

Looks like we are back to BJP baiting.. Please allow me to expose the "pseudo-secular media" the so called "art loving intellectuals" and the lefties who selectively back them or fly under the radar. There were all the major religions involved in this controversy, FYI.Why is it that no newspapers published the danish cartoon's and news channels refused to air such even in the West ? [barring: Philadelphia Inquirer and a couple of others]. So is it Okay to offend some religions, or is it that "freedom of art" is being selectively applied by self appointed "Intellectual Guardians".

If Congress bans "Da Vinci Code" it is respecting "Minority Sentiments" and upkeeping "Secularism"
If MF. Hussain paints exclusively nude paintings of Hindu Godesses it is "ART and Freedom of Expression"
If Taslima Nasreen, Salman Rushdie publish books, and were attacks on them with people putting Bounties on their heads.. Its "Blasphemy"

Vadodara art college student in custody, hearing today
By IE
Friday May 11, 01:56 AM

For the second consecutive day, Chandramohan, fine arts student of M S University, continues to be in police custody. Two more charges under Section 295 A and 153 B of IPC were registered against him.

Meanwhile, the MSU top brass refused to get bail for Chandramohan. Instead, they have asked Fine Arts Faculty in-charge Shivaji Panikkar to issue a public apology for the student's work. BJP leader Niraj Jain and some Christian groups had raised objections to Chandramohan's piece of art which he had displayed as exam work at the university. They had also destroyed them. He was shifted from Sayajigunj police station to Vadodara Central Jail after his bail plea hearing was postponed for tomorrow.

Section 295 A of IPC pertains to deliberate and malicious act to outrage religious sentiments by insulting religious beliefs while Section 153 B pertains to acts of prejudice against national integration. Panikkar refused to issue any public apology and following a meeting with faculty teachers and students, issued a statement that the MSU top brass was pressurising them to do so.

---------- From the MSU faculty and The Organizers of the event ------------

STATEMENT OF FACTS BY SHABNAM HASHMI of the NGO SAHMAT + dateline

* The MSU Syndicate in its meeting ratified the decision of VC on the suspension issue and has not taken any decision regarding the wide scale criticism over the composition of the Vice Chancellors Inquiry Committee which is presently investigating into the incidents at the Faculty of Fine Arts. Minutes and resolution to this effect issued on 7 June 2007

Professor Romila Thapar, Professor Jayati Ghosh, Professor Shivaji Panikkar and others address Press Conference organized by SAHMAT at Press Club, New Delhi on 29 May

# On 9 June, staff members of the Faculty gave the Governor, in his capacity as a Visitor to the University, a Memorandum that apprised him of the situation. The primary demands of the staff members were the following:

1. An FIR be lodged by the University authorities against Niraj Jain and associates for intruding into the University premises without permission.
2. The attached artworks be released forthwith to enable the completion of evaluation and declaration of result
3. The suspension of i/c Dean, Professor Shivaji K Panikkar who was the only University authority who attempted to prevent the disruption of examinations, protect the students and redress their grievances, be revoked unconditionally with immediate effect.
4. That the Governor, as the Visitor to the University, intervene and set up an inspection into all the official actions taken by the university authorities with regard to the Faculty of Fine Arts, as their actions clearly compromise the autonomy of the University and violate the sanctity and integrity of University education.
5. That appropriate action be initiated against the Vice Chancellor for abdication of responsibility towards the University at a critical moment, failure to take action against the intruders and disruption of the examination process.
6. To set up, in his Capacity as the Governor of Gujarat State, a Judicial Level committee to inquire into the entire events starting from the Fine Arts Faculty to the developments thereafter, like the announcement of a reward of Rs. 1 lakh for a nude portrait of Prophet Mohammed by Mr. Deepak Shah, a senate member of the University and the appearance of the nude portrait of Prophet Mohammed in the D.N, Hall in the main University Campus, that led to a riot-like situation in the Old City area of Vadodara.

--------- More from a Islamic News Site ----
Art for Humanity's Sake

The depiction of Muslims as terrorists in Kailash Tiwari's painting exhibition "The Face of Terror" in Bhopal and the blasphemous posters sketching the Holy Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be with him) at the M.S. University campus in Vadodara at the instigation of M.S. University Senate member and former BJP students' wing activist Deepak Shah followed by Chandramohan's presentations offending the various religions and faiths, have once again raised the question of art for art's sake versus art for the sake of morality or for that matter humanity at large.

Tiwari's paintings, which feature Osama bin Laden and Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, also depict people in beard and wearing religious cap attacking India and the Parliament. That the practitioner of hate rather than fine arts aimed at targeting a specific community is palpably obvious. But he forgot that Muslims do not endorse terrorism in any form as it stands in sharp contrast with the ideals of Islam.

It is a relief to know that the painter has removed 10 paintings from the exhibition, and local authorities have asked him to wind up the exhibition after Muslims raised objections to it notwithstanding radical Hindu organisations coming in support of the painter.

But the case in Vadodara is more serious as it amounts to blasphemy. Hate mentality is now so much ingrained in the psyche of a section of society that offers are being made to create hate! Deepak Shah offered a Rs. 1 lakh award daring anybody to “offend Islam the way Fine Arts Faculty student Chandramohan's works had offended the religious sensibilities of Christians and Hindus If Chandramohan blasphemed against certain faiths, he must be prosecuted for that. And that too he had not acted at the instigation of any follower of Islam. But what Shah did is rabidly provocative and highly deplorable and condemnable. It is in the fitness of things that one Farid Lakhajiwala filed a complaint against those responsible for making and distributing the controversial posters as well as against Shah for his controversial offer. The case was made out under Sections153 (a), 153 (b), 295 (a), and 114 of the Indian Penal Codethe same as those pressed against Chandramohan for his art works.

As many as 15 youths were arrested for rioting, and combing operations were on in full swing in walled city areas. But the proactive police did not take any action against Shah for his provocative statements and offer of a reward.

{Note : How immediately the threat of riots springs, as the "artists" bluff gets called.. }
--------------

If an example Ive given is somewhat specious , I would say it was the reference to Marwaris - I know of just one who got some parts of his commercial building 'cleant out' of both Hindu and Muslim shops , apparently so that he could tear the whole thing down and build a large swanky one in its place . I am given to suspect similar profit-seeking motives behind some of the examples of Jain and Hindu involvement .

I also met Muslim tenants of Hindu landlords who gave them a lot of material and monetary help to rebuild their shops and businesses and remain in the same commercial complexes .

Latest being Attarwala :
---------
Mumbai Police questions nine film stars in Attarwala case
27 Oct 2007, 0141 hrs IST,PTI

MUMBAI: Putting all speculations to rest, city police on Friday said nine Bollywood stars, including Hrithik Roshan, Shilpa Shetty and Salman Khan, were questioned in connection with a case involving an aide of gangster Chhota Shakeel.

Giving out the names of the stars, Joint Commissioner of Police (Crime) Rakesh Maria said the stars were called for questioning to check if they had performed in dance shows in the UAE organised by Iqbal Attarwala, aide of Shakeel "under a proper contract, with love and affection for the producer or under pressure by various elements."

Others questioned by the Mumbai Crime Branch include Arbaaz Khan, his wife Malaika and brother Sohail (who produced some of the shows), Esha Deol, Urmila Matondkar and Priyanka Chopra.

Actor Sunil Shetty, who's Popkorn Entertainment also produced some shows will be called for questioning soon as he was busy, Maria said.

"All of them have asked for time from us to submit their MOU's and contracts. We would also be questioning cricketers who had played in the cricket matches and have sought video tapes of the matches," he said.

@pw

why do you see hara-kiri as the only possible cause of death apart from being slain by marauding muslim rioters? most of the hindu dead were rioters felled by police bullets. additionally, many would've obviously been killed while on the attack. it's not as if every muslim victim went quietly without any resistance.there were reports of helpless dalit hindus being killed at random by muslims, but i don't think they would've been terribly high in number.i'm not saying that muslims are somehow morally above rioting, but in this case your comments don't hold much water.

I was being sarcastic wrt. {Hara-Kiri comment}, and waiting until somebody shows up and blames the Israeli tourists to India [International Zionist Conspiracy, Mossad, Shin Bet et.al ] and the possibly even the Illuminati, surprised it took so long. It's always the proverbial "everybody is against us" jig.. Followed by a bunch of "I definitely think so.. Bro!.. word on the street" comments..

most of the hindu dead were rioters felled by police bullets. additionally, many would've obviously been killed while on the attack. it's not as if every muslim victim went quietly without any resistance.

there were reports of helpless dalit hindus being killed at random by muslims, but i don't think they would've been terribly high in number.

really, you got some kind of excel spreadsheet listing the number of Hindus brought down by police bullets and those by Muslim mobs separately?

Wayfarer @ 52

I'm sorry I didnt read right through your post - it seems way off topic , and triggered just by the name of Nirav Jain ( that I gave skep-on-earth@46 as an example ). I believe there is another thread on SM this could be moved to ?

To the bit towards the end that did address my post @ 48 :

The reason I mentioned other communities like the Jains and the Dantewada tribals ( and not Christians , Parsis , Jews ?! and Buddhists ?! ) is to clarify that the riots were not only Hindu vs. Muslim , but also just about anybody with an agenda / matter to settle . Though maybe I should qualify the Dantewada tribal reference by explaining that they were used more as foot-soldiers to carry out the actual killings ( like the Charras in the Tehelka expose ) - but it stands as an example of the involvement ( active or passive )of communities in the riots that one would not expect to have seen ( Hindu involvement is explained as a reaction to the train massacre - at least initially ) .

I will retract the Marwari reference - as the old saying goes , 'One Marwari does not a Riot make' .

People may not agree with the rioters but they dare not to confront them.

Kurma, i would be interested to know if you would apply this exact logic to the entire Muslim community , on account of the Muslims who have known to be involved in many communal riots in India even before Godhra happened. Or the killingas that happened during the Partition ?Or does this logic apply only to the Hindus ?

Well, what do you think? Of course, it doesn't apply to only Hindus. What a stupid thing to ask!

Er Kurma... you dont really seem to understand what a democracy is. When people vote for a particular Government, they do not promise to support EVERY THING that the Govt does in their name. People make a choice that a particular party is more suitable to govern the country but this does not mean that they mortgage their freedom to have opinions to the Govt. It would nt be a democracy then.

I didn't say they don't have the freedom. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. They CAN stop the government (although with varying degrees of difficulty) if enough of them really want it. Therefore, the moves of a government are indicators of the will of the people (or their lack of concern). This "evil government" is often a bogeyman. You only really have your fellow citizens to blame.

Many people who voted for Bush in 04 are feeling terrible today for the choice they made back then. More than two thirds of the citizens in the US want the troops to be pulled out of Iraq. This is happening after they re-elected Bush ! Go figure !!

What is there to figure? That two thirds want the troops out NOW doesn't mean they weren't for sending the troops in in the first place. They were generally for it. I remember clearly, on 9-12-01, several callers on NPR, in California., asking to bomb them in the Middle East (there were some sane voices too). I can only imagine what it was like on some other radio channels in some other parts of the country. They re-elected Bush even after he did all that crap. Politicians beat the war drums only because they think their electorates want it or because their electorate lets them.

Anyways, this issue is separate from the Gujarat riots. I only put it there to say that in a democracy, the actions of a government, always reflects the will of the majority of the people (or at least their lack of willingness to put in the effort to stop it).

By the way does any one know if Christians get a subsidy to go to the Vatican?

Modi won the elections after wards not because the Hindu majority had suddenly turned into hating the Muslims - it won because people were angry that no body seemed to mention or care for the fact that innocent Hindu's were killed inside a train but there was outright condemnation of the riots alone.

There's much in your comment that I haven't responded to. For most of it, all I have to say that this sense of victimization by the minorities that some Hindus have is simply ridiculous. Enough to drag around Mahmud of Ghazni to explain what's going on today. Please open your eyes to the realities. Really, don't you have something else to occupy you?

By the way does any one know if Christians get a subsidy to go to the Vatican?

This just shows your ignorance about other segments of Indian society.

Why this snarkiness?
How is the idea of a vactican subsidy any less absurd than the Haj subsidy that is in place?

Kurma. this sense of victimization by the minorities that some Hindus have is simply ridiculous.

Over the years some some decisions made on the basis on some bad assumptions and theories that had not been thought out through that have affected hinduism adversely. Since many of these assumptions continue to form the basis of public discourse in India it is difficult to see how hinduism.

The next chapter of Guha's book that is up for discussion deals with the consitution of India. Instead of getting into a needless flamewar here on what is already a charged thread, why not have a less personal discussion there?

For most of it, all I have to say that this sense of victimization by the minorities that some Hindus have is simply ridiculous. Enough to drag around Mahmud of Ghazni to explain what's going on today.

"Over the years some some decisions made on the basis on some bad assumptions and theories that had not been thought out through that have affected hinduism adversely."

Hinduism is being weakened? I don't think hinduism has ever been so strong over the subcontinent. The hindutvawadis have literally gotten away with murder twice since 1990: the Shiv Sena in the 1993 riots, and the BJP in the Gujarat riots. They prove it again every Valentine's day by beating up 18 year old kids. Shilpa Shetty still regrets a kiss, and M.F. Hussain dare not return to India. A poor techie recently spent 50 days in jail after being (wrongly) accused of posting obscence photos of Shivaji by them.

You are being too modest, Dizzydesi. But so charm it is, this mix of gundagardi and victimhood.

posting obscence photos of Shivaji

Shiv Sena and BJP, and almost every party has non-religion related movements. They are not religious orgainizations. BJP started distancing itself from the RSS after getting power in the center and Shiv Sena's is not focussed on protecting hinduism. It was founded to protect Maharastrian interests. The Shiv Sena have were thugs before after and during 1993. Everyone in bombay knew that in 1992/93. They voted Shiv Sena into power because they felt that they were too weak to protect themselves and that only the Shiv Sena could protect them. Jogeshwari and the general lack of accountability for fundamentalist muslim actions had a big impact.

They are not religious orgainizations. BJP started distancing itself from the RSS after getting power in the center and Shiv Sena's is not focussed on protecting hinduism. It was founded to protect Maharastrian interests.

They voted Shiv Sena into power because they felt that they were too weak to protect themselves and that only the Shiv Sena could protect them. Jogeshwari and the general lack of accountability for fundamentalist muslim actions had a big impact.

Interesting article on the current mood in Gujarat http://www.himalmag.com/2006/october/cover_story.htm. Guess it is from last year, but totally relevant to the events at hand.

Kurma, I was waiting to see your response to NS'comments at #41.
I couldnt have put it better ;)