Kaante, the bolly remake of Reservoir Dogs, was shot entirely in LA (making it the first bolly flick to do so).

I know this post is partly tongue in cheek, but is there really a significant desi organized crime network in the US ? I don't think so. Not because we are so innocent, but rather because of the nature of US immigration policy. The closest I can think of are the LTTE sympathetic extortionists in Canada, but most were SL rather than Indian Tamil. There were Khalistani Sikhs, but this too was criminal activity in support of political objectives. I know there are Mallu, Punjabi kids in NY tristate area who like to play the part but is it just posturing/mating rituals or a real criminal enterprise ? In any case I'll pour out some kal for the desi bhais who couldn't be here...

I'm not really sure about an organized desi crime network (Unless you count those desi uncles; who after a couple of pegs at a community gathering proudly boast that they haven't paid any taxes in 15 years) But I've heard about one American Indian entrepenuer from the 1980'swho fits the label snugly,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chippendales

not really Americas related but this is a short clip related to indo canadian gangs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM_P1pSEDQ4

All I can say is that it is about time there is an Indian American Gangsta film

You better pray to the Gangster God that it is better than any of the British Asian gangster flicks, which have universally been truly appalling disasters.

I think the problem with a potential American Desi Gangster film, and without doubt the problem with the British versions, is that:

1) There aren't really many desi gangsters
2) Desis think they are tougher than they are. Desis aren't tough guys (this isn't something to be embarrassed about).
3) There aren't really many desi gangsters

I realise that points 1 and 3 are technically the same, but I thought it was such a crucial point it stood being made twice. I read a list of British gangs, quite a few of which are Asian (Holy Smokes, Paki Panthers, Bengal Tigers, Shere Punjab, Chalvi Boys...predominantly warring Sikh and Muslim gangs from a decade ago) but the names provoke sniggers amongst brown people, not fear.

The LTTE would make a good subject for a desi gangster flick, but not necessarily 'indian'. Their drug-traffiking operations are immense, heroin especially..

And remember, by the time the activities of organized criminals are well-known to the media, they've usually ended.

Here in Canada, Italian mob activities in Montreal were only made known through publicized busts..

There's tons of Chinese organized crime here in Toronto but you'll rarely hear anything about it through the media. Until some of them slip-up and get caught.

"movie called Ashes which comes out next year"

Are you sure? Because from the humble semi-pleading request for funds on the website, I hope it comes out at all.

:It might finally take the “model” out of our minority

why so anxious to have this happen?

:It might finally take the “model” out of our minority

why so anxious to have this happen?

I think one of thinks that makes America great is that there imigration polices means more likely there will not be major desi-gangsters in the United States any times soon. Canada and the United Kingdom on the other hand are different story. They have more then there share of desi gangsters due to the type of desi's/South Asians they let into there countries.

Here living in Vancouver there have been over 110 deaths of young indo Candians men mostly between the ages of 18-35 since 1994. Almost all of these men have been punjabi jatts and almost all of them had parents who were not very educated and these young men were 1st generation in there family to be born in Canada, or they came to Canada at a young age.

1) There aren't really many desi gangsters

There may not be many desi street gangsters but there are a few who act on global scale.
Dawood Ibrahim

3) There aren't really many desi gangsters

There aren't desi gangster of any repute in North America and Europe.

However,

There have been some big hitters in Asia and Middle East.

Not only Dawood Ibrahim (mentioned in comment above), but even Haji Mastan and others from Pashtun Mafia (back from 1960s). The movie "Deewar" was in part inspired by him, and countless other Bollywood movies. When they show a Pathan gangster in all those 70s movie, they are paying tribute to Pashtun Mafia.

clueless:

i do not think kids joining gangs has anything to do with immigration policies of a country. more likely if a parent is isolated from what the child is doing in addition to a host of other factors . My parents are punjabi jatts, and i have a very large extended family of punjabi jatts with varying degrees of education...and i can not say there has been a higher prolictivity to join a gang in my family. i find your comments are tinged with a bit of..."punjabi jatts are generally uneducated."
i think there are many other factors one would need to examine in Vancouver as to why the youth are into gangs...such as the ease of transporting drugs into the country due to the proximity of the american border etc etc.

Shantaram is a work in progress. It would be curious to see the reviews and reflections on this movie (I highly recommend reading the book first - Gregory David Roberts).

If this movie follows the book, it will be the "Indian Gangster" movie. If Mira Nair doesn't mess up, that is.

There aren't desi gangster of any repute in North America and Europe.

To have a successful "gangster" proliferate, you need a supportive and somewhat frustrated neighborhood. Bumpy Johnson and Frank Lucas, not to mention West Indian Archie (with numbers) both had Harlem, Gotti had his italian neighborhoods in brooklyn, as did the Italians of old lore, like Joe Bananas and Lucky Luciano.

These mafia support constituents turned towards the gangsters because local law enforcement wasn't providing enough security and local society wasn't providing enough opportunity. Young black youth only had the numbers racket.

These mafia support constituents turned towards the gangsters because local law enforcement wasn't providing enough security and local society wasn't providing enough opportunity. Young black youth only had the numbers racket.

African Americans dont have the family cohesion and closely held family structure to branch out into Mafia. Immigrant communities are more suited for Mafia.

Damn, is Ajay Naidu's MO to star in as many movies with a "Damn It Feels Good to be a Gangsta" montage as possible?

African Americans dont have the family cohesion and closely held family structure to branch out into Mafia

Which is exactly why Frank Lucas had his entire extended family from North Carolina come up to NY as a part of his business, and controlled nearly all the heroin in NYC during the late 60s, early 70s. The DEA had no clue it was him because their own racism prevented them from believing a black man could do what the mafia had failed to do, that is, purchase direct from the source in south east asia.

well - it will probably need to be preceded by a book set in vancouver or london. There's the londonstani about the street thugs, and one called 'daku' (I think ) set in Vancouver. Also of note, the exploits of RCMP inspector Janwar Singh (this is a funny name).

Sacred Games by Vikram Chandra has been optioned by Jan Chapman (I think).
I'm hoping it will be The Godfather set in Bollywood (no songs). That would be a film worth seeing.

man you guys are lame

man you guys are lame

why do you say that?

Man of No Clue, you are not to be a member of our America-bred pack of model minorities. Get your own model minorities. And stop fawning us. We are already lauded by Americans. Canadians don't count.

Puli, Bindy Johal.

DEA had no clue it was him because their own racism prevented them from believing a black man could do what the mafia had failed to do,

reminds me of a story joseph jett, the trader who bought down kidder peabody with fake treasury swaps, tells. when the scandel broke, he cowered in this office afraid to leave becuase the press was outside ready to pounce. when he finally mustered the courage he discovered he could walk right past them...as they could not fathom the possiblity that a black man could be such a powerful trader.

think there are many other factors one would need to examine in Vancouver as to why the youth are into gangs...such as the ease of transporting drugs into the country due to the proximity of the american border etc etc.

That is such a lame excuse by the punjabi community to shift the blame, instead of dealing with why so many young men from the punjabi community go into the lifestyle.

My parents are punjabi jatts, and i have a very large extended family of punjabi jatts

My Dad is a Dhillon and My mom is a Dhaliwal, so you can't be anymore a jatt then me. But nobody in family ever talked about being a jatt.

There aren't desi gangster of any repute in North America and Europe.

Only those gangsters that are either a) bad (as in not very good) or b) like the limelight are well known.

No one knows the names of all the good and powerful gangsters.

The closest I can think of are the LTTE sympathetic extortionists in Canada, but most were SL rather than Indian Tamil. There were Khalistani Sikhs, but this too was criminal activity in support of political objectives.

louiecypher,

at SM the definition of "desi" definitely does include Lankans, so the organized crime in Toronto perpetrated by SL tams definitely does count. I was of the impression that it has gone beyond simply funding the LTTE and has become a collection of organizations whose reason for being is the status quo. I think the credit-card fraud arrests connected to an SL Tam working at Newark airport is also of the same trend--SL Tams doing dirt abroad for the benefit of none but themselves.

i had a Kiwi cousin who was a small-time reefer dealer in Uni, but that's about it. Not like he was breaking any kneecaps for protection money.

is there really a significant desi organized crime network

amway

is there really a significant desi organized crime network

amway

Quixtar!

Here living in Vancouver there have been over 110 deaths of young indo Candians men mostly between the ages of 18-35 since 1994. Almost all of these men have been punjabi jatts and almost all of them had parents who were not very educated

i hereby call for the first indian american animated tv show on organized crime and the impact of modernity - the jattsons.

Dravidian,

Jattsons is hillarious, how about a rock band called flotsam and jatson?

does joseph jatt work in citi's mortgage-baked securities group?

Here is some gossip that should put a smile on Indian male fans of Piper Perabo.

She used to go out with a Indian guy!! My friend from college had this cousin that was going out with her and he brought her to dinner with all of the family there to introduce her to the family. This was before she was famous though.

And now she is in movies about Indians, cawincidence? I think not.

Once you go Indian, we wont let you go back!!

what is the Indo-Canadian composition? mostly Punjabis. mostly Sikhs? Mostly Jatt Sikhs? Any significant Indian ethnicities other than Punjabis? I know about SL tamils. are most
Sikhs Jatt?

2) Desis think they are tougher than they are. Desis aren't tough guys (this isn't something to be embarrassed about).

Just because the model minority crowd you hang out with in the U.S. happens to be pudding soft, do not assume that all brown men are the same way. I can think of countless examples of desis showing the same toughness and propensity for violence as any other race. Do the events that this site's name recall ring a bell?

I'm sure Tiger Menon would like you to say that to his face.

couldn't care less about tiger menon. tiger memon, on the other hand...

Tiger Menon is actually a malayalee tiger, so be very careful to say anythig to him :)

Software consultancies with Fake Resume employees is the single largest organized crime from the sub continent.

Clueless, as I understand it, the biggest gangsters in Vancouver are the Chinese gangs. The Indian gangs are small time drugs dealers who act out a gangster 50 Cent wannabe lifestyle too much. But the problem with your reasoning is, that wherever they go, Chinese immigrants and Chinese second and third generation kids are seen as model minorities, and yet even they have a gang problem. Seems to me you simplify too much. There's a large Punjabi population in the UK and USA and nothing like the kinds of gang problems amongst them as there is in Vancouver. There are massive gang problems amongst Jamaican immigrants in the UK though, and amongst second and third generation Jamaican youths. But when you go to America, West Indians, who in England have had a stereotype of being associated with yardie gangs, are viewed as a model immigrant grop, hard-working, high achieving, and not associated with crime. A little more complex than your simplistic analysis seems to allow.

*giggles*
Desi-American "gangsters". The only ones I know of crash parties and don't amount to a substantive threat.

Trinidad has had some mean Hindu gangsters.

clueless:
Frankly, Bobby put it much better than I that your reasoning is overly simplistic.
He (i'm assuiming here)makes good points about the Chinese gangs in Vancouver being a much bigger threat than the Punajbi ones.

think there are many other factors one would need to examine in Vancouver as to why the youth are into gangs...such as the ease of transporting drugs into the country due to the proximity of the american border etc etc.

That is such a lame excuse by the punjabi community to shift the blame, instead of dealing with why so many young men from the punjabi community go into the lifestyle

I'm not quite sure how this comes across as an excuse other than the fact that there are other factors worth examining besides your point of:
uneducated immigrants = gang problems
there is no blame shifting but simply an opportunity to look at all factors and not just the ones brought up by you. see above.

and i am not quite sure what relevance it is that no one in your household discussed being jatt....and so that means you didn't joing a gang as a result???

The only ones I know of crash parties and don't amount to a substantive threat.

where the jalebis at, yo?

was lucky luciano desi? i mean, lucky's a punjabi name.

I totally agree with Db and Bobby. How can we shift blame from Jatts to some other factors when we don't even what other factors are playing role in gangster phenomenon?

This article is seven years old but it talks about how there are some gang problems among desi youths in the bay area in California.
Http://www.indocommunity.us/news7.html

And of course a certain group among the desi community has people going into gangs. I wonder which one.

Punjabi gangs in Vancouver may be small time players, when compare to the Hell Angels and East Asians gangs. But they are much more then the other groups to use violence. Shootings in nightclubs and even in some busy street corner at daytime in front of other people. And they don't care who see them do it.

Alot of you people who don't live in Vancouver have no idea how different the desi community is here compare to others parts in the west.

Clueless, that article just shows that there's some juvenile delinquency in California amongst that group of teenagers and it's an article from years ago. Compared to the African-American or Mexican gang problem in that part of the world, it's a puff of air. Now, Vancouver does seem to have a major problem, 100 gangland shootings in ten years is one big big problem, but there is absolutely NOTHING resembling that, not even a millionth of that kind of problem amongst Punjabi youth in California, the UK, or for that matter, Toronto in Canada itself.

Your theory doesn't explain why this is, nor does it account for the existence of organised crime in immigrant groups and second and third generation immigrants of practically every ethnicity in the world. It doesn't account for why there is such an entrenched Chinese organised crime problem in Vancouver, in contrast to the belief that Chinese immigrants are even more of a model minority than Indians in America. It also doesn't explain why there is so much gang violence amongst Jamaicans in England, but virtually none amongst Jamaicans in America. Let's leave aside the Italians in America, the Polish, Nigerian, Romanian and Russian gangsters in the UK. Your theory is simplistic, to say the least.

Bobby that last article had one key point. Punjabi's only make up 25% of the bay area desi population and yet they make up all the young men going into gangs. Why are the not they other 75% of bay area desi not having the same problems with young people going into gangs.

Who was the first Punjabi gangster in Vancouver? Trace it back and ask how that life choice became founded there. These things have roots in actions of individuals. Who started selling drugs, tooling up, forming gangs? Who got the ball rolling? That takes on a life and dynamic of its own. Until the 1970's and 1980's Jamaicans were seen as a very conservative and law abiding community in the UK. The the yardies started becoming active, bringing cocaine with them, and all of a sudden West Indian youths attached to gangs grew in number. Gangsters are charismatic leaders in the context of urban environments, especially amongst minority group males. Who were the first charismatic gangster leaders in Vancouver? Trace it back, analyse it, see who got the economy rolling.

Bobby there are youth punjabi gangs in London, and even in Toronto there are punjabi gangs.

Clueless, that report is years old. What is the situation today in California, do you even know? And do you have anything to say about why gangs are not a problem in Toronto amongst Punjabis or any other desis like they are in Vancouver? Those are two cities in the same country. Why is that? Amongst Punjabis in the UK and Australia these problems of drug dealing gangsterism is non-existent compared to Vancouver. Why is that? And in the UK there are gangs of Bengalis and Hindu Tamils and Pakistanis (although nothing like to the same degree as the situation in Toronto, or even of other ethnic gangs in London), so what does that tell you?

Bobby there are youth punjabi gangs in London, and even in Toronto there are punjabi gangs.

Really? I live in London, where are the Punjabi gangs on anything like the scale of the ones in Vancouver or any other ethnic group? They don't exist. Sure, there might be criminals about, but the crime rate amongst Indians is lower than the national average, if you go by the amount of Indians in prison. And why arent those gangsters in Toronto shooting each other or as entrenched as the Vancouver ones? Because it's obvious that they're not, and the ones I just learned about on google in Toronto are mostly of Jamaican / West Indian background in that city.

yup, there is, it's in film production right now.

here's the trailer/teaser:

Kaatradi

Bobby there are punjabi gangs in Toronto, not at the level of Vancouver but there are some. One difference is that the punjabi immigrants in Toronto are more educated then in Vancouver.

oops, thought i linked it properly

let me try that again: Kaatradi

http://www.kaatradi.com

how do you link?

Bobby I think you should look at the trucking industry in Toronto area and how many of those men arrested in smuggling drugs are punjabi's.

So Clueless, it's lack of education that means there's so many Indian gangsters in Vancouver, rather than the alignment of a number of reasons like; the perpetuation and cultivation of gangs by charismatic individuals, the dissemination of guns and drugs amongst them, the atractiveness of the gangs in an urban culture as a means to making money and a form of street camaraderie, the monopoly power of particular ethnic gangs in a certain criminal activity like drug smuggling between Canada and America and the massive amounts of money in that economy leading to violent competitiveness --- none of these things have anything at all to do with the phenomenon of Indian gangs in Vancouver. It's all to do with a relative lack of education, even though you don't know much about and have not quoted anything about the social or educational or employment levels amongst similar social groups in different cities in Canada, America or the UK, where that kind of activity is negligible. Vancouver has an abnormal problem, for sure. But you have to think a little harder to understand why. Also, aren't the Chinese community highly educated? So why are the running the criminal underworld of Vancouver? And whilst your at it, anthropological theories for the involvment of white European and Black Africans as well as East Asians in organised crime in their respective diasporas. Are the explained by IQ levels too?

Bobby I think you should look at the trucking industry in Toronto area

But it's obviously not as big a problem as it is in Vancouver because they're not shooting each other like they are in BC. Clueless, can you name me any ethnic group that doesn't have a criminal element amongst it? Are you saying that particular ethnic groups are intrinsically criminal? Because I don't think you have a clue about what you're saying.

So I just did an interview for Mehfil magazine- one of Vancouver's Indo-Canadian mouthpieces, and talked to a young musician who had some thoughts on the gang scene in Van.

He pointed out that
- the media constantly bolds out Indo-Canadian gang violence as being a huge problem in Vancouver- even when gangs are NOT involved, the media says, well, its NOT Indo-Canadian gang violence
- that there are no established gangs in Vancouver insofar as they're flashing gang signs, wearing colours, and marking out turf the way that gangs are in LA, yet that's the way they're being portrayed
- small time petty criminals who are doing terribly stupid things to make money are being conflated with so-called "gang" violence

I'm NOT a Jatt, but one thing that I have noticed is that Jatts are among the first group to condemn themselves, be embarassed about their background, and basically hate their own communities or despise their Indian identity. I find that curious and really have to wonder why that is. Jatts are also likely to be targeted by law enforcement because they sometimes don't have a tradition of education in their families so its pretty easy to rattle their cage and they won't have these strong, concerned parents that can make a stink if someone's shaking down their kids.
For example, the World Sikh Organization is suing the CBC for slandering them as a terrorist organization- a move that I happen to support. There was a Facebook community that was started to address the issue and around 2500 people joined the last I saw. So some people in the group made some unflattering comments about the reporter who filed the story and said stuff like they'd like to get hold of this person who is disparaging their community. The comments were pure rhetoric, and it was basically just stuff like you see in tons of groups, with people venting.
What happens but that three days ago the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police- the Canadian equivalent of the FBI) come down to one teenage kid's house and interrogate him. They threaten him with charges and tell him that they are doing a massive operation to investigate various members of the facebook community. They had a list, and were going to be approaching the head and the admin in the group. Now I'm a member of this group, and I know the founder and admins, who are very decent people committed to social justice, and there was nothing going on that warranted this kind of attention, but here we have the RCMP doing rings over this nonsense when there are
-white supremacist images on facebook communities that have yet to be removed
- I have received personal threats from white supremacists on facebook in my inbox and they have never been investigated or followed up on in any capacity
I mean, some of this stuff is just pure aggrandizement on the part of the mainstream.

The "get hold" part was an error on my part- I just heard from the group admin- people said things like they'd like to give the reporter a tight slap, etc.

Here is her message:

..jas, as far as I know, the comments were limited to people suggesting mock-punishments for (the journalist in question). It was nothing serious, and it had no overtones that the person was going to be hunted down or physically threatened.

Also, the kid still doesn't know whether or not he'll be charged.. the RCMP are "deciding"..

"Attorney-General Wally Oppal is challenging a new organization of young South Asian lawyers to help combat the "cancer" of gang violence plaguing the Indo-Canadian community."

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=e2797f98-9e84-4b78-968d-0913ea784c61

Clueless @ #9 said:

Canada and the United Kingdom on the other hand are different story. They have more then there share of desi gangsters due to the type of desi's/South Asians they let into there countries.

Clueless @ #24 said:

My Dad is a Dhillon and My mom is a Dhaliwal, so you can't be anymore a jatt then me.

Classism at its finest. When will a movie be made about people who look down on others for their "lack of education" while having no grasp of grammar, spelling, or a nuanced analysis of a complex problem?

My Dad is a Dhillon and My mom is a Dhaliwal, so you can't be anymore a jatt then me.

Here's your line: My Dad is a Dhillon and my mom is a Dhaliwal, so you can't be any more of a Jatt than me. ;)

#62 42 seconds
I think you need to understand that there is a real lack of leadership in the Vancouver South Asian community. When 2010 Vancouver Olympic Committee member Bruce Allen recently stated that Sikhs need to leave off wearing their turbans in Canadian public service or "there's the door.. hit it! you have a place to go, its called home", Oppal stated that Allen was a "close personal friend" and that we needed to "understand him" and "accept" why he made such comments. That's not to say that his statement on mentoring people in the community isn't valuable, but his posturing on behalf of Indo-Canadians can sometimes be deeply flawed.

Here's your line: My Dad is a Dhillon and my mom is a Dhaliwal, so you can't be any more of a Jatt than me. ;)

try 3 in the great brown grammathon.

My Dad is a Dhillon and my mom is a Dhaliwal, so you can't be any more of a Jatt than I.

i really don't think it is neceesary to pick on clueless's grammar/spelling, it's really the ideas that are forthcoming that we should be discussing, and i think clueless and bobby are both debating on the ideas, which is the point of this forum. not to berate an individual. clueless has every right to use this forum to put forth his/her ideas and let's discuss those instead of giving grammar lessons.

#65 I am shocked to hear this from a public figure in a place where Sikhs have won rights to wear the turban as RCMP officers. So basically those rights should be reversed in Allen's opinion?

i really don't think it is neceesary to pick on clueless's grammar/spelling

i think you meant: i really don't think it is necessary to pick on clueless's grammar/spelling.

(i am just kidding. i was only riffing off the earlier comment, and agree with you.)

i really don't think it is necessary to pick on clueless's grammar/spelling.

It's not even necessary to pick on how clueless's comments indicates the source is without clue.

# 69 darn lack of spell check on sm! :)

i think clueless has made a fair effort...

I think you need to understand that there is a real lack of leadership in the Vancouver South Asian community. When 2010 Vancouver Olympic Committee member Bruce Allen recently stated that Sikhs need to leave off wearing their turbans in Canadian public service or "there's the door.. hit it! you have a place to go, its called home", Oppal stated that Allen was a "close personal friend" and that we needed to "understand him" and "accept" why he made such comments. That's not to say that his statement on mentoring people in the community isn't valuable, but his posturing on behalf of Indo-Canadians can sometimes be deeply flawed.

db, khoofia:

not only did he say that, he included "burqa wearing Muslim women" and people who chose to keep the last names "Singh and Khan" which he later amended to Kaur, in his rant. He was completely unrepetant in its aftermath, offered a weird, slap in the face apology that reaffirmed much of what he was saying. A massive groundswell brewed in response to his comments, which was met with opposition from his radio station (he first made his comments on his radio show), as well as certain elements of the mainstream media, even tacitly including the Globe and Mail. The entire debacle has been utterly underreported, and I am just about to pen a story for the Canadian edition of India Abroad on the issue. I will try to get it put up at New American Media or someplace on the net after its reported because the IA doesn't have a web edition. Its a really stunning tale, with so many twists and turns and players, and it needs to be heard.
BTW- as yet, he is still on the Olympic Committee, and still on the air.
khoofia, G and M is getting more and more conservative by the day. I always thought of it as centrist, but I think because of the presence of NP, it can say just about anything these days and yet minorities have no choice but to read it. In BC, there is ONE independent publication- the web paper, the Tyee- yet its run by a white editorial board and has expressed some fairly antediluvian points of view. I'd like to see India Abroad gain some muscle and become the paper of choice for Indians in Canada so that they have a reliable, unbiased source of news, but although it has what one estimate pegged as 70,000 subscribers in NA, its failed to pick up market share when one considers how many Indians there truly are in this region. I suspect its bad marketing ;)

db: yes, absolutely. Allen referred to the "Sikh Mountie problem" in the preface to his comment.

What "type" of desi do you prefer? What "type" should be left where they are, or better yet, "go back to where they came from?" And I think you meant "their" in that second sentence.

harbeer,

machaan, you are obviously le writer extraordinaire, so lay off on ole Clueless--it's like mauling a fish monger with his product while screaming, "it stinks, you know!"

But London, in my own opinion, has a better developed desi organized crime scene mainly because they have a much longer history of significant numbers in the country, ethnic enclaves were encouraged and funded by the UK gov't and that sort of segregation persists in housing and education in the some parts of the city.

and people who chose to keep the last names "Singh and Khan" which he later amended to Kaur, in his rant

So he wants a Canada in which peoples names have to be standardised? Whose names though? Aren't there Italian or German or Portuguese Canadians? What about the Chinese? Don't they have names reflective of their ethnic background? Or is it only South Asians and specifically Sikhs or Muslims who have to change their names according to this bona fide racist? Don't get mad, get scientific. Be cool headed, and pull his arguments apart like a sample under a microscope, disseminate it wide, and confront him with it when you can.

I've been looking up articles on indo canadian crime. It seems to be more of the 'dis-organized' crime variety. however i remembered this post in sepiamutiny

and this youtube clip

http://youtube.com/watch?v=H-eDLdYUC2I

It seems to be pretty strong in the canadian communities and my friends tell me of tamil gang violence too. Desi immigrant crime is prevalent in South East Asia and Dubai, i guess over there its more of a escape poverty or fly-kill-buy duty free scotch variety.

I guess for many kids in USA/UK/Canada its a part of growing up, I've met a couple of them and six years ago as a FOB who lived in the middle east it was (to me) amusing at first and they seemed pretty hostile when i met them. I became a fitness trainer in the local gym and once i got to interact with them when they made visits, the attitude dropped and the desiness came to surface when talking about which protein shake is scientifically proven to enhance muscle growth. The kids are all right most of the times.

Look at our deshi tough guys --- Dawood and his Pancho Villa like cherubness, Prabhakaran and his armpit holster( kudos to abhi for that caption). They don't look the part. I doubt if first world tough guys can hold their own against third world tough guys?. They are scary people and so are law enforcement officials like K.P.S Gill http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1975997.stm

I guess in the end its more of a economic factory and it always will be.

But London, in my own opinion, has a better developed desi organized crime scene mainly because they have a much longer history of significant numbers in the country,

Nothing like what is happening in Vancouver. The big gangs of criminals in London are the Jamaicans, Nigerians, the Turkish, the white English families of cockney gangsters, and now lots of eastern Europeans, Polish, Albanian, Romanian and Russian. Have you heard about David Cronenburg's new movie 'Eastern Promises'? It's all about the Russian mafia in London. Desi crime such as it is, is not organised to the same extent as other clans and cartels are, and is mostly low level drug dealing or fraud by individuals or small crews.

*typo* I mean economic factors in the last line

Desi immigrant crime is prevalent in South East Asia and Dubai

The entire Bombay underworld and much of Karachi's too is run from Dubai. Dubai is dripping in dirty money.

i worked on sound for this movie, ashes. haven't heard much about it since, but i will say that ajay naidu is a true desi gangster. he's like 5'3" but struts like a pimp. there is another movie 'the war within' which stars a lot of the same folks (unfortunately no piper) but really good. not so much a gangster flick, but rockin nonetheless.

Desi crime such as it is, is not organised to the same extent as other clans and cartels are, and is mostly low level drug dealing or fraud by individuals or small crews.

jasmine:
won't mehfil cover this?
i have not heard anything about this until i read your comments. can we send him back to his Home?? maybe the deep south....
i think with the indo-cdn political power something can be done about this, such as getting him off of the Olympic Committee/demoted, something. Is this the voice of the 2010 Olympics the Canadaians, and specifically British Columbians want reflected as representing them?
all of those, "canada is so accepting and liberal" comments will soon be going out the window.
go get him. look fwd to your article and spreading the word.

The LTTE raises anywhere from $200-300 million from the diaspora population every year, of which a good portion must come from London

Got a link and source for that? Some Sri Lankans got busted for doing credit card fraud at some petrol stations they owned in London a while back, I seem to remember.

bobby,

the $300m figure may even be on the short side.

methods detailed here.

bobby,

the petrol station fraud wasn't small-time in the least, they recruited scammers at 200 stations. I'm not sure that this one was connected to the Tigers, however.

From your second link:

Tamil gang violence in London escalated to alarming levels during the period 2001-2003. In a short period of two years 13 Tamil gang members were killed in violent and brutal attacks. The first attack took place in Roe Green Park, Kingsbury and followed by reprisal attacks in Lynton Park, Wembley. Thereafter attacks took place in Ilford, East Ham, Tooting and Harrow. As recent as 2004, the Ari Ala gang attacked Tamil youth in Wembley.

I knew about this gang violence between Tamil gangs but a lot of the fundraising seems to be extortion, bootlegging DVD's, taking control of Tamil Hindu temples and accessing contributions. Off the radar almost. Authorities are being very firm here in cracking down on terrorist fundraising in the UK, mostly for the Al Qaeda type stuff but I'm sure this must be on their agenda too. But the informal nature of the money transfers and lower priority and the method of fundraising probably makes it more difficult to crack.

You're telling me it wasn't small time. My friend got burned by the bastards after filling up with them and got steamed for two grand on his card.

I haven't read all the posts but I will say this, the scene in Vancouver is totally f@cked! A lot of young punjabi guys just want to be part of this 'gang-culture' for the obvious reasons. Me being punjabi myself I saw a lot on my few visits to vancouver and was exposed to some sh!t that made my jaw drop. I mean its so easy to become part of this drug-trade. And it has nothing to do with caste, I seen all sorts of punjabis involved. With full fleged beard/turban and some even who have taken 'amrit'. I just couldn't believe what i saw. I thought having tables and chairs in the gurudwara were bad enough but they just take it to the next level.

In Toronto its not like that, well not at least. Although when I grew up in the 90s we did have some high-school gangs namely: Punjabi Mafia, P.L.W (Pange Lain Wale), M.R.T (Muslim Run Tings), Palace Boys (Muslim gang). The so called gangs just fought with each other basically muslim vs. sikhs. This was all cool (lol), usually a stabbing or 2 or just someone going to the hospital, until.... UNTIL tamil population started growing. The tamils now seem to 'run' this gang shit. THey took the names from their respective affiliation from back home (AK Kanan (translated AK47) vs. VVT (i forgot what this stood for). Thats when bodies started dropping. Couple of Singalese guys started getting beaten up or stabbed for no apparent reason. 2 guys who I grew up with victim of this, both shot due to some internal problems. And by this time the muslim and sikh guys kinda just grew up and left highschool sh!t and moved on. A lot of black and asian gangs are scared of tamils right now.

But there was a case of a sikh guy running a car-theft ring from the airport which was considered very sophisticated. He was known as "The General" he had all sorts of people working for him, from Russians to Jamaicans.

I think people here need to realise there are some bad "desis" out there. What i find more disturbing is how people are quick to point out each desi's background and point out that it is "them" "They are the cause of it". You just need to realise that not everyone has the same opportunities as many of you here. You are quick to judge these folk and blame their parents or just label them as 'wanna-bes'. Sometimes it is not that simple, some families are poor and want their children to work and sometimes the kids just get caught up in street life. Thats just the way it is. Not all of us have the luxury to sit in starbucks with an apple laptop and be judgemental towards all those who are not doctors, lawyers, computer engineers.

You're telling me it wasn't small time. My friend got burned by the bastards after filling up with them and got steamed for two grand on his card.

so there was no refund or mulligan rule in effect? he just had to eat the charge? (geez, thats over $4K in american currency!)

so there was no refund or mulligan rule in effect? he just had to eat the charge? (geez, thats over $4K in american currency!)

I was sitting with him in a sandwich place when he got a phone call from the CC company. They have an alarm system when each card does abnormal transactions. They asked him where he was and what he was doing and if he'd just made this transaction. He said I'm eating a ham salad sandwich and I haven't used that card all day. Within 24 hours they'd steamed him. They cancelled and he's covered with Barclaycard so it's OK but it's the hassle, police statement, tracing his transactions prior to the fraud. He filled up in a station in Edmonton north London with some brown man on the till.

He filled up in a station in Edmonton north London with some brown man on the till.

HaHa! every gas station in this neighborhood, and the neighborhoods to the neighborhoods of this neighborhood has a brown man attending the till.

Yeah but this one looked shifty and suspicious my friend said, in retrospect. The funny thing was he offered a description and could only say he had a moustache. Brown man with moustache on petrol station till, hahaha, narrows it down eh.

Lookatme:
You bring up some valuable points which i wanted to elaborate on as well. I think what sort of fired me up on this issue is the whole, punjabi jatts are so uneducated, blah blah blah. i am so tired of hearing this stereotype.
i think it really begs the question of what is education?
[ok, just to put a disclaimer in here front and center, my immediate family all have graduate degrees, so i am not acting out of defense for my immediate circle.]
however, as i had said earlier, my extended family all have varying degrees of education, and i want to know what is it that we value about the educated lot? inteligence, higher tolerance, financial success? b/c i can make quite a few arguements on how i have found more of those characteristics amongst the "uneducated" of my brethren.
i also believe the constant negative protrayal of cdn jatt sikhs in the media has contributed a lot to the view the u.s. diaspora have of this community.

Brown man with moustache on petrol station till, hahaha, narrows it down eh.

Lookatme

Great post!! I agree with you on almost everycount.

No offense, but the people on these boards are getting so damn boring.

A topic filed under humor has exactly ZERO humorous comments about it!

"OHHHHHHHH no!! Out of a billion plus south Aisans, some of them are not doctors and are in gangs! What are we going to do?"

db, you said it, brudda. I've actually been twisting in the wind with this story after offering to a number of organizations (naming no names) and finally I harassed India Abroad cause I write for them all the time, and they seem quite into it now. Its not really professional of me to talk about other news groups/ editors so I won't, but I really appreciate your inquiry and you are certainly welcome to draw your own conclusions.

Lookatme, you opined:

I thought having tables and chairs in the gurudwara were bad enough but they just take it to the next level.

No offense, but the people on these boards are getting so damn boring.

A topic filed under humor has exactly ZERO humorous comments about it!

I agree. And thanks for that inspiring info about Piper's dating life!

db: "b/c i can make quite a few arguements on how i have found more of those characteristics amongst the "uneducated" of my brethren.
i also believe the constant negative protrayal of cdn jatt sikhs in the media has contributed a lot to the view the u.s. diaspora have of this community."

I agree with you completely. A lot of my friends are truck drivers (and no they are not drug traffickers) and many are just hands-on types of dudes, like machinists and auto-mechanics. THey just didn't want to be sitting behind a desk. But yet, they are more financially well off than me. I dont have a degree either but I think i've done well for myself considering the group of people i grew up with. And i do not think of any less than any other educated person. ANd i find it constantly irritating that i come on this site and some idiot book-worm starts mouthing off at all "jatt-punjabis" just from a few wikipedia or cnn news-stubs he/she has read. Just because some of these guys aren't computer savy and cannot defend themselves against these attacks in cyberspace, these nerds take advantage just get all wordy and statistical. But these same idiots have no problem supporting likes of M.I.A who is an avid supportor of LTTE but label her revolutionary. Meanwhile no tamil i know can understand her lyrics or care for her so called "agenda". That is a topic on its own though. I might just get banned for this last statement alone.

Anyways I just think american desis need get off this "model-minority" high-horse mentality and grow some balls. Sometimes signing petitions and aligning to some political parties doesn't help. Sometimes you need to break bones and let them know who they are dealing with. Such is the case with Tamils in Toronto, nobody dares messes with them, because they know the outcome. And who knows maybe one day these "Gangster-Desis" will one day help out your law-abiding-flag-waving-model-minority-parents, when they being harnessed by some ignorant racist americans.

"OHHHHHHHH no!! Out of a billion plus south Aisans, some of them are not doctors and are in gangs! What are we going to do?"

If you acquire an extremely macabre sense of humor, all the previous comments will in some way be rip-snorters.

I sincerely hope the movie has no "8-Mile" style "the tension is building" scenes (Tennyson-deavullup-arrathithe scenes).

Jasmine, I agree with you, but where do you draw the line? I mean I saw utter lack of respect for the most basic sikhi principals. Although I have my hair cut I found it disturbing that folk were in the LangarDinner Hall had their shoes on and no head gear. And plus nobody doing any 'seva' instead kitchen staff helping out and doing everything, whilist leaving all the dishes on the table after they finished eating. I understand we must progress with the times (i.e. abolish caste system and all the good stuff) but at what cost? Infact, I find more ironic is how quick people are to defend the tables and chairs issue but don't understand a word upstairs in the kirtan. Some of the people need to get their priorities right. Then why not start installing benches ala-churches in the darbar itself? Those bibis should learn to spend time upstairs instead of gossiping downstairs in the langar hall anyways.

I agree with you too ShallowThinker.

murali:

But London, in my own opinion, has a better developed desi organized crime scene

As far as I can tell Bobby is the only other Londoner here. Neither of us are passing judgement on the Canadian desi gangs, so I'd appreciate if people wouldn't just assume London is rife with brown gangs, some of the stuff said about London on this thread is real bunk. I'm sorry, no matter what desi boys would like to think, there is no significant brown gangland activity in London. As Bobby illustrates above, whilst I'm not denying Asian CRIME, it does not tend to be what we typically think of as gangsters. They are huge fraud rings uncovered regularly and shifty middle-aged Asian fellas are frequently involved. Indeed one of the areas mentioned above is where I lived and still work and home to plenty of Tamil hardliners who I'm sure raise money for the LTTE. A film about this sort of thing would be boring. Gangster films are supposed to be about drugs, poppin caps, car chases, offing those damn five-Os and meeting your maker in a hail of bullets.

This thread was supposed to be about gangster films, remember?

As Bobby illustrates above, whilst I'm not denying Asian CRIME, it does not tend to be what we typically think of as gangsters. They are huge fraud rings uncovered regularly and shifty middle-aged Asian fellas are frequently involved.

oh, arbiter of what is truly gangster in life, can you please explain to us victims in the gallery on what exactly isn't gangsterish about organized illegal activities?

As to fund-raising (and procurement), i'd think that the life of KP would make a very exciting international gangster movie. Granted, his instruments in London are on the extreme end of this network and it could very well be the least exciting end.

I guess i'm just not down with a strict rubric for gangster movies when the terms's deployment in everyday language (in the US at least) connotes far more than petty crime and armed violence.

Meanwhile no tamil i know can understand her lyrics or care for her so called "agenda". That is a topic on its own though. I might just get banned for this last statement alone.

You know what I'm asking Santa for this year? That we get to add "I might just get banned/watch me get banned/I know I'll be banned" to ban-able offenses. It's petulant, melodramatic and annoying. We don't ban for just anything, so please stop implying that we do.

Not all of us have the luxury to sit in starbucks with an apple laptop and be judgemental towards all those who are not doctors, lawyers, computer engineers.

People with apple laptops go out of their way to NOT go to starsucks (hello, $$$ wifi and shitty drinks)...and many of us aren't in the fields you describe. What did apple ever do to you, that you would tar it so? ;)

speaking of which Brong Breaker...

Satya - is my favorite indian-gangster flick. Bikku Matre (Manoj Bajpai) PWNS mumbai!

I didn't like Company that much. And then I watch Shool - Bajpai again but this time he is on the other side of the law as Inspector Partap. Amazing acting. IMO one of the most underrated but critically acclaimed actors in bollywood today. All of his movies are amazing. With that said I'll also say Pinjar is way better than Partition.

Sarkar - was eh.. didn't care for this either. Well 2 characters really impressed me in that Kay Kay's character and Silver Mani (i would watch this movie again just for his dialogs and the fact southern indian music plays everytime he enters.

Having read both Shantaram and Sacred Games, they are great books, I dont know how well they will translate into movies. I think Shantaram the movie is doomed. Too many high-expectations but there are talks of "bollywood dance numbers by shah rukh khan" what the hell? I thought it was supposed to be Chunky Pandey, and Amitabh as Kader?? Bah? If this doesn't boost his ego through the universe i dont know what will. I can just picture his over-hamiing of english phrases to linbaba!

Relax murali, no need to get so sarky about it. Abhi clearly posted a tongue-in-cheek comment saying about time for a desi American Gangsta movie (note, not an INDIAN gangster movie, there are plenty). What ensued was a discussion about illegal underground activities. I was just trying to relate back to the original point. Examples of successful British gangster movies are Lock Stock, Get Carter, The Italian Job, Snatch, Brighton Rock, the Long Good Friday, the Krays, Sexy Beast or perhaps Gangster No. 1 (no, not a Govinda special). All I'm saying is putting Asians in these types of films would be laughable and unrealistic.

I agree, KP sounds like an interesting chap, as is Dawood Ibrahim who was mentioned above. But a film about how these international shady characters raise money for terrorists/ship stolen goods would be more appropriately labelled a crime caper/thriller, don't you think? Gangster movie implies something else, especially in the context of immigrants.

I only make this distinction because I find it pretty lame how a lot of Asian lads seem to have a chip on their shoulder about their community being seen as 'soft'. e.g:

Sometimes you need to break bones and let them know who they are dealing with. Such is the case with Tamils in Toronto, nobody dares messes with them, because they know the outcome. And who knows maybe one day these "Gangster-Desis" will one day help out your law-abiding-flag-waving-model-minority-parents, when they being harnessed by some ignorant racist americans.

Who gives a sh*t? Surely we're mature enough to realise it's an undesirable stereotype for an immigrant community to be associated with gangs?

Those bibis should learn to spend time upstairs instead of gossiping downstairs in the langar hall anyways.

Lookatme, see, I would say that those bibis have the right to do whatever they please, instead of being admonished by self appointed mullahs who cheerfully chow down what they are cooking up whilst "gossiping" in the langar hall. I mean, really, haven't you noticed the massive outflow of work from these women keeps the Gurudwara going? And yet, in BC, I could only find ONE woman on a Gurudwara Committee, in the entire province, and she was the "langar representative"? Spend your energy empowering Sikh women instead of chastising them.

p.s.- where do you draw the line when people start being holier than thou? I mean, why AREN'T you a Gursikh?

What ensued was a discussion about illegal underground activities. I was just trying to relate back to the original point. Examples of successful British gangster movies are Lock Stock, Get Carter, The Italian Job, Snatch, Brighton Rock, the Long Good Friday, the Krays, Sexy Beast or perhaps Gangster No. 1 (no, not a Govinda special). All I'm saying is putting Asians in these types of films would be laughable and unrealistic.

so, what do you suggest? What kind of movie could accurately and faithfully portray the criminal (indeed, not laudable) activities of Desis 'round the world, while keeping the audience from nodding off into their fake butter and diacetyl pop-corn? Would you advocate a Van Wilder-ish treatment? (snark in cheek...i keeed!)

Who gives a sh*t? Surely we're mature enough to realise it's an undesirable stereotype for an immigrant community to be associated with gangs?

Well, because sometimes, yelling, "Black man and a white woman living together/face the facts fascist perpetrators!" at a would-be assailant doesn't have quite the deterrent effect as two decades of American popular media portraying people of your ethnicity as inveterate, violent criminals.

it's still bad image-wise, i agree, to have that association come up when people see you.