“So you have not had this…tofurkey you sent me, on Facebook?”

“No. I don’t eat tofu.”

I went down that road once. After cleaning the effluvium off my bathroom sink (never did make it to the commode), I reconsidered my veggie lifestyle and it's various implications.

Tofu is fine when you control the prep, but tofurkey is an abomination.

“Well, now you know what a FOB feels like.”

Yeah, I do feel somewhat guilty about the lifetime of hippie-spun thanksgivings in which i've been privileged to take part. I can almost hear that obnoxious Lee Greenwood song (that Young Republicans are taught to memorize at birth ;) every time I tuck into some stuffing.

Anna, come to my house! We have open "Indian" Thanksgiving, which is basically anyone who doesn't have somewhere to go comes to our house and eats whatever we decide to make. This year, I'm in charge and I'm making vegetarian Italian, but last year my mom was in charge and it was vegetarian Mexican, vegetarian Indian, and vegetarian Thai. I think she just uses tomorrow as an excuse to make all the weird recipes that she finds in those little cookbooks they sell in the checkout aisle at the grocery store. :P

don't be depressed! own your thanksgiving! invite some ppl over and do a small party potluck style? or go rent every movie you've wanted to watch in the last 6 months and have a movie marathon! or start an art project?

tofuturkey? has anyone actually eaten it? b/c i have a fundamental problem with taking soy and shaping it into meaty things.

My fam never celebrated Turkey Day either (and it wasn't just b/c we were veggie...well most of us). Mostly it was b/c the women were tired from all the cooking from Diwali. We had so many family gatherings that by the time Thanksgiving came around...it was a nice day off to relax. Sometimes we did potlucks...the cousins are starting to do a potluck thanksgiving but mostly its a day off to have fun. :)

As for that ankle....you should get it checked out by a good PT. :)

Happy Turkey Day!

Awww, Lusterbee! You are too sweet. :) Thank you. I don't want people to think I'm angling for an invite, like I said, this wasn't a big holiday for my fam...I just wanted to put the post up, to show solidarity with all the other browns/exchange students/singles/orphans/misanthropes who aren't having a Hallmark Gold Crown holiday. ;)

don't be depressed! own your thanksgiving! invite some ppl over and do a small party potluck style? or go rent every movie you've wanted to watch in the last 6 months and have a movie marathon! or start an art project?

I actually was planning on starting a long-put-off art project! You're psychic. :) I didn't include the last part of this conversation, which is when I was told my friend that had I known, I would've organized something like a "Hey, everyone in DC who isn't going anywhere for TG...let's go see American Gangster, or some other movie!"-thing.

It was just such a jarring moment, to realize what it must be like for all those grad students/exchange students/newbies who also aren't doing anything, for whatever reason; my friend graduated a few years ago, and he was telling me how he spent every TG alone, since it's not like you can go back to India for a three-day weekend. I had a taste of what my parents probably felt like in the early 70s. Well...they didn't grow up marinating in this "Thanksgiving is SO IMPORTANT!"-culture, but still...

i have a fundamental problem with taking soy and shaping it into meaty things.

Seitan tastes so much better than soy.

Actually, I officially sound like an Ammachi/Naniji now, because my hip hurts constantly.

“How are you? How’s the ankle?”,

i have a fundamental problem with taking soy and shaping it into meaty things.

Seitan tastes so much better than soy.

I don't know what the rest of you are talking about! Tofurky is delicious!!

P.S. Anna, if it weren't for your ankle, I would suggest volunteering at a soup kitchen this Thanksgiving. Believe me, nothing makes you appreciate the blessings of your life more, than seeing those who have less...

depends on the proximity of meat-alternative makin' hippies. Twin Oaks Farms makes a mean soy chorizo. Seitan seems to be more expensive 'round my parts as well.

I prefer traditional veg to meat simulacra. Soy based chorizo is an insult to pigs. The potato based burger pattys in Indian fast food is far better,but perhaps not as healthy, as the veggie patties they sell here in the US of A

Anna, I hope you feel better and enjoy your art project.

If it's any consolation, 1/2 of my family went to desh. The other half went to the Northeast. Lifelong's better 1/2 had a last minute business trip to a country that does not celebrate Tgiving (!). It's just me at home with the toddlers. But, we will have finger paint and cheerios, so it's not all bad. :-)

I sent you an email, and you never responded. :-(.

Soy based chorizo is an insult to pigs.

All cyphers are insults to the original. They stink, quite frankly.

Seitan tastes so much better than soy.

Check out RealFoodDaily, if you're in the LA area.

"Hey, everyone in DC who isn't going anywhere for TG...let's go see American Gangster, or some other movie!"-

Interestingly enough, the opening (almost opening) scene of that movie is Bumpy Johnson handing out turkeys in Harlem.

(reverse shot from inside the truck, then wide push in on denzel)

Check out RealFoodDaily, if you're in the LA area.

Thanks HMF, been there, love them, got the t-shirt (over long sleeve shirt, natch). Their faux caesar rocks...

Well, now you know what a FOB feels like.

All the fellow FOBs I know are quite excited for Thanksgiving because they get all these great deals at Best Buy and Circuit City. Honestly, I can't think of a single one who is depressed at this time of the year. They're too busy spending their hard earned rupeez.

Hilarious...

Lets see.. over 5000 miles from home.... 40% discount on a new hard drive. yeah that balances out.

Thanksgiving has always been a time for road trips for me :) have fun trying to find open restaurants on thanksgiving day!

No road trip this year though.

Well, now you know what a FOB feels like. All the fellow FOBs I know are quite excited for Thanksgiving because they get all these great deals at Best Buy and Circuit City. Honestly, I can't think of a single one who is depressed at this time of the year. They're too busy spending their hard earned rupeez.

Hmmm....most of the DBDs I know like to do Vegas on Thanksgiving. And a lot of CBCs (China born Chinese)too

Ok, so what are the plans for Black Friday. Best place to buy a kick ass plasma tv? Circuit City? HHGREGG? Ideas? Strategies?

I vividly remember my first time in US at Thanksgiving. I was studying at Virginia Tech and opted not to go visit my relatives since I had all these exams just the week after thanksgiving and it was my first semester and I was anxious to do my best. I didn't realize/anticipate how deserted the campus got during Thanksgiving. I felt really really alone and almost cried myself to sleep. When I forced myself to wake up the next cold morning, I saw snow for the first time. It was beautiful.

Honestly, I can't think of a single one who is depressed at this time of the year. They're too busy spending their hard earned rupeez.

When you empty your savings account, it ultimately depresses you dawg.

Ok, so what are the plans for Black Friday. Best place to buy a kick ass plasma tv? Circuit City? HHGREGG? Ideas? Strategies?

bfads.net, they have ad scans of most major places. The other advice to shop, get together with your friends and make one common list. Each one hit one store, that way you can get everything (at least in theory) you want.

Sunflower, that was beautiful. I'd love it if this turned in to a thread where people shared similar. :)

“Well, now you know what a FOB feels like.”

I was lucky to be invited to different Thanksgiving feasts in homes of friends and relatives, and relatives' friends - for each of the first four years of graduate school, back in the late 80s-early 90s. One year, I was invited home by my then room-mate, who was descended from a family that arrived on the Mayflower, and celebrated it quite traditionally! I was a very special 'FOB' then.

In the fifth year, I would have been by myself, but the Foreign Students' Office sent my name to the Campus Catholic group - they invited me, and there I met many other people who would also have been alone - both from the US and abroad, both graduates and undergrads, and we cooked our own Thanksgiving dinner from scratch - including a vegetarian option too. I think I might have baked and mashed the sweet potatoes myself, in addition to stirring the stuffing to make it just right!

Ever since then, I've always contributed to Thanksgiving Dinners at local soup-kitchens, both cash and time. As TigerYogiji mentioned upthread, it can be greatly fulfilling, especially if you're otherwise going to be alone, though again, not necessarily with an ankle that is still healing :)

To all, best wishes for a Happy Thanksgiving!

All the fellow FOBs I know are quite excited for Thanksgiving because they get all these great deals at Best Buy and Circuit City.

You need to expand your DBD circle in that case. I am DBD, a decent number of my friends are DBD and none of us has bothered to ever wake up at some godforsaken hour and gone shopping so that we could save a few $$ Most of us either travel to meet whatever family we have in the US or else get together, cook some good food, drink beer and watch football. The kind you refer too is usually students in their first 1-2 years or H1-Bs who just got here.

I love the idea of Thanksgiving and make the whole Thanksgiving meal with the turkey, sweet potatoes and the works!
Of course I marinade my turkey with Indian spices put chipotle in my mashed sweet potatoes and make cranberry achar instead of the sweet relish.
I remember my first Thanksgiving in the US, I was invited to one of the professors' house
for dinner. The said professor lived out in the country and I didn't have a car and someone (who I didn't know very well) was good enough to give me a ride. I was not too thrilled with the meal but I appreciated the gesture.
I am thankful for my family and my friends who have been like my family, in all of these years away from my family at birth.
And thanks to everyone at Sepia mutiny for putting up this great blog.
I may not agree with you guys at times, but I always find your blog worth reading. Keep up the good work!

Most of us either travel to meet whatever family we have in the US or else get together, cook some good food, drink beer and watch football.

Ridiculous. when you can get a 500 Gig Maxtor Firewire/USB2.0 for half price? what are you on.

Well, now you know what a FOB feels like. All the fellow FOBs I know are quite excited for Thanksgiving because they get all these great deals at Best Buy and Circuit City. Honestly, I can't think of a single one who is depressed at this time of the year. They're too busy spending their hard earned rupeez.

Hmmm....most of the DBDs I know like to do Vegas on Thanksgiving. And a lot of CBCs (China born Chinese)too

Is this a generalized naming convention: xBx, where x is first character of country name?

You need to expand your DBD circle in that case. I am DBD, a decent number of my friends are DBD and none of us has bothered to ever wake up at some godforsaken hour and gone shopping so that we could save a few $$

I think our fellow UberDesi was being jocular...well, I hope. ;)

Chachaji, love the reminiscing. :)

Yogi, that's very kind of you. Thank you for reading. :D

I think our fellow UberDesi was being jocular

Facetious is the word you're looking for.

In response to #23 Ardy, my idea of thanksgiving does extend beyond best buy and circuit city.

“Well, now you know what a FOB feels like."

Thanks for the nod to FOBs, ANNA. I usually am not depressed around Thanksgiving: nice short break right before the end of the semester, to catch some extra sleep. I am more unhappy around diwali.

While we're making a nod to "FOBs" , let's not forget the history of the first Thanksgiving, as it was a holiday introduced, by the very first "FOBs" - the 'pilgrims'.

Turkey and Yam are so 20th century. Cook Somali or Salvadoran for Thanksgiving this year. Besides yam sucks.

My parents, who came to the US in that late 60s early 70s, really took to the holiday. Thanksgiving is sacrosanct in our house. For my family Thanksgiving represents a holiday where new immigrants (the Pilgrims) were thankful to be in a new land and were well received by the locals (the Native Americans). Our family tradition is to invite new immigrants to our house, to celebrate their first thanksgiving. Through the years Chinese graduate students, Serbian engineers, and Indian bachelors have spent their first thanksgiving with us, albeit turkey free.

The vegetarian menu is a fusion of traditional thanksgiving vegetables (green beans, sweet potatoes, cranberries, pumpkin) with some Indian twists. The main course is Indian (things like wild rice pilaf, baby onion sambar), the sides and desserts are more traditional American. My mom has been making these Thanksgiving recipes for the last 30 years, so they are family tradition at this point. I'll probably cook the same things for my children. We even have a set of dishes, centerpieces, and cornucopias just for thanksgiving. (like I said, my parents really took to the holiday)

There are also some great fusion recipes on sepiamutiny contributed by mutineers in previous thanksgiving posts. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving everyone!

As a student I remember on the day of Thanksgiving (and Christmas break in fact) the parking lot's in our apartment complex used to empty out. It was a very eerie feeling, like everyone in the complex (and the city) had disappeared overnight. The only cars left behind were the ones that were rusted and could not move, or they were owned by the desis.

The first couple of years, we did go shopping, then we started getting together and eating at one persons place or another. But still as a FOB it feels weird when you see a "dead" city for the first time and then it hits you.

Also living in a small college town, where restaurants and shops close, does not help.

Btw #24 Yogi, care to share the cranberry achar recipe with us?

And a lot of CBCs (China born Chinese)too

Thanksgiving represents a holiday where new immigrants (the Pilgrims) were thankful to be in a new land and were well received by the locals (the Native Americans). Our family tradition is to invite new immigrants to our house, to celebrate their first thanksgiving. Through the years Chinese graduate students, Serbian engineers, and Indian bachelors have spent their first thanksgiving with us, albeit turkey free

Did those new immigrants proceed to murder and rape you & your family after the feast?

Sorry, I dont mean to be so pedantic on a fluff post. However, it's very important to at least know the true history of how this holiday came to be, and how its shrouded in 'nobelization' I think it's fantastic your parents have this tradition - but I think its quite problematic the 3rd grade "the pilgrims came over and had dinner" narrative of Thanksgiving is perpetuated.

Twin Oaks Farms makes a mean soy chorizo.

I'd love to find a soy or veggie version of Goan sausage. It shouldn't be too hard, if they can do a soy chorizo, which is the closest thing I've found.

I've been vegan for about four years now and always bring some vegan dishes and desserts to our family Thanksgiving dinner. For us it's just another reason to get all the kids together and eat. Some of my family eats meat, so there's a turkey, much to my dismay, but otherwise the food is a mix of South Indian staples and a few veggie side dishes. I don't mind fake meat because, at the end of the day, IT'S NOT MEAT. And it has convinced some family of mine into reducing their meat intake---why have fatty, cruel, expensive and environmentally-degrading meat, when you can have fake stuff that often times tastes just as good and is far healthier and better for the planet?

Somali and Salvadoran at thankgiving is like eating paella instead of pulao at Diwali, A_C.
I went off the beaten path once. I decided on a game theme and made individual cornish game hens and wild rice and to this day, our friends laugh about the "Son of turkeys".
BTW Cornish hens taste like Indian farm-raised chickens, if anyone has a hankerin. Plus they cook in a flash.

I had a vision of someone sinking her hands in pasty goo and patting it into a shape of a turkey whose neck totters and creaks into an unnatural shape.

let's not forget the history of the first Thanksgiving, as it was a holiday introduced, by the very first "FOBs" - the 'pilgrims'

Sorry, I dont mean to be so pedantic on a fluff post.

A hearty thanks to HMF for keeping it real. Happy Bloody Thanksgiving.

A hearty thanks to HMF for keeping it real. Happy Bloody Thanksgiving.

I plan to celebrate by making a visit here.

Did those new immigrants proceed to murder and rape you & your family after the feast?

Sorry, I dont mean to be so pedantic on a fluff post. However, it's very important to at least know the true history of how this holiday came to be, and how its shrouded in 'nobelization' I think it's fantastic your parents have this tradition - but I think its quite problematic the 3rd grade "the pilgrims came over and had dinner" narrative of Thanksgiving is perpetuated.

While we're making a nod to "FOBs" , let's not forget the history of the first Thanksgiving, as it was a holiday introduced, by the very first "FOBs" - the 'pilgrims'.

Thanks HMF.

Also, the Pilgrims were not the first to settle here. Another canard. Oh, and make sure to check these links before you dig into that turkey. Yummy indeed!! :D

For me, the holiday is simply a day to share a meal with friends - socializing rather than participating in any "Thanksgiving" tradition.

Amit,

Now you're being pedantic. I think you knew the underlying gist of my statement.

Did those new immigrants proceed to murder and rape you & your family after the feast?

Sorry, I dont mean to be so pedantic on a fluff post. However, it's very important to at least know the true history of how this holiday came to be, and how its shrouded in 'nobelization' I think it's fantastic your parents have this tradition - but I think its quite problematic the 3rd grade "the pilgrims came over and had dinner" narrative of Thanksgiving is perpetuated.

Why him I not surprised about these comments by HMF.

Santosh at # 34
This is a bit difficult since I don't have a written recipe, it is pretty much like you make any achar.

Ingredients

Two 10z packs fresh cranberries.
Ready made achar masala (2 to 4 tbsp depending on how hot you want your achar, this is usually a mixture of coarsely ground mustard, cayenne and turmeric)
1/2 cup canola oil
1 tsp mustard seeds
1 tsp cumin seeds
1 lime

Chop up one bag of cranberries in the food processor, don't overprocess and make a paste, mix it with the whole cranberries keep aside.

Use a thick bottomed pan, heat a couple of table spoons of oil.

When the oil is hot add mustard and cumin seeds, when the seeds begin to pop add the rest of the oil.

Lower the heat to simmer, add the cranberry mixture, keep stirring at low heat, till the whole cranberries begin to get a little mushy.

but are still intact. Taste for seasonings, add more salt if necessary (the achar masala sometimes has salt and sometimes not).

Add juice of one lime and stir.

Cool to room temperature pour into a glass battle.

The top layer in the achar bottle should be oil, add more oil if needed. Keep in a cool place for 3 to 4 days, a week for the best results.

This should keep for several months if you store your bottle in a cool dark place.

Why him I not surprised about these comments by HMF.

because they happen to be true, inciteful, and chock full of clues.

My mom makes cranberry pickle which is so hot, I almost can't eat it. It's the spiciest pickle she makes and it's gloooorious. ;)

Clueless, HMF...to your respective corners, please. It's a holiday.

I'd love to find a soy or veggie version of Goan sausage. It shouldn't be too hard, if they can do a soy chorizo, which is the closest thing I've found.

If you ever find yourself in Chattanooga, TN, check out this restaurant, run by Seventh-Day Adventists (also have some other locations, but the Boston one closed :( ). They make one of the most delicious and healthy foods I've ever had. You're more likely to find a soy/veggie version of sausage here.

Recipes! I'm gleeful. Thanks, Yogi B.

And, hey, quit picking on HMF, he plays a vital role in keeping it real for everyone....else.

Now you're being pedantic. I think you knew the underlying gist of my statement.

:)
Yes, I did.
I wasn't so much contradicting you, as adding more information/refining. :)

A hearty thanks to HMF for keeping it real. Happy Bloody Thanksgiving.

The US is a new country, so its mythology is more open to historical reappraisal. Its interesting the kind of tensions that creates. Michelle Malkin had a post some time ago about the war against Thanksgiving.

Who knows what the true story behind holi or diwali is.

sakshi, did I seem tense? I was teasing HMF.

Whoa whoa whoa. Michelle Malkin is no authority on.. well, really anything.

The US is a new country, so it's 'nobelization' of its past, is much easier catch out (for those that go just a little beneath the surface - that already elminates 95% of the US population). James Loewen's book, "Lies my teacher told me" has a great chapter on the first thanksgiving, and the mythology that surrounds it.

There's another event that happens in Plymouth.

Apologies to Santosh, did not realize you were joking :-)

And ANNA, that is a great site, I love the game and seemingly it helps in a small way.

Ridiculous. when you can get a 500 Gig Maxtor Firewire/USB2.0 for half price? what are you on.

Good for you, go get it man!

If you ever find yourself in Chattanooga, TN, check out this restaurant, run by Seventh-Day Adventists (also have some other locations, but the Boston one closed :( ). They make one of the most delicious and healthy foods I've ever had. You're more likely to find a soy/veggie version of sausage here.

I have to disagree on this. I have a client that is a Seventh-Day Adventist School and so for lunch I would go to the cafeteria, which was my only choice as this school is very remote and I couldn't cook because it was a client I have to travel for. It was some of the most disgusting food I've ever had. Everything had this fake meat in it that seemed to be made out of Gluten or something, it definitely wasn't soy.
And when I say everything, I mean everything had fake meat: fake chicken chunks in the soup, fake meat chunks in the nachos, a fake hamburger that had the texture of the real thing and the worst was the Chik'n - their word, not mine. It was breaded and shaped and had the texture of a chicken breast but we weren't sure what is was made of and caused a lot of stomach pain the rest of the day.
My thing is, if you are going to be vegetarian then why eat things that are fake meat? There are so many better vegetarian food/options out there, especially Indian food. I am not a vegetarian btw and am very much looking forward to turkey with all the trimmings tomorrow.

sakshi, did I seem tense? I was teasing HMF.

Whoa whoa whoa. Michelle Malkin is no authority on.. well, really anything.

Ardy,

Apologies to Santosh, did not realize you were joking :-)

Yogi,
Thanks for the recipe. I'm going to try it over this weekend, if I can get hold of the materials tonight.

BIG, the one in Boston had some fake meat, but much of their food was vegetarian/vegan. So it's fine to disagree since your experience is different from mine :)

As for eating fake meat, I don't really see what the issue is. It tastes good and is healthy. If it reminds some people of real meat, so be it - for them, it's better than eating real meat.

If it reminds some people of real meat, so be it - for them, it's better than eating real meat.

I think it's super-useful to feed omnivores, but some of it is so realistic, I can't partake. :) I've purchased it, bravely stared at it when I opened the fridge, and then shuddered. I just couldn't.

The only exception to this is the Gardenburger that has feta mixed in...THAT I love...but it also doesn't look much like a hamburger, to me at least. The sausages, fake bacon, pepperoni et al? Not so much. I'll eat the soy protein bits that are in veggie chili, but that's because when I was small, they seemed no different than all that ubiquitous shredded coconot which was in everything I ate. ;) It looks like thenga, not the ground beef (??) it's impersonating.

Amit @ 60

Yeah, this place had hardly any "real" food. You would think they would offer at least veggie burgers everyday. But I guess the rule holds true that dorm food is bad pretty much everywhere.

As far as vegetarians that eat fake meat, most of the vegetarians that I know who do this are prior eat meaters and most often not brown. Most of the brown people I know that are vegetarians have been so for life.

But I have to say the morningstar breakfast patties are awesome! If you used to eat meat, these would definitely satisfy your craving.

My first thanksgiving and christmas amazing (best sex ever). Later ones were so-so.
Christmas down under - one looks forward to the Boxing Day Test at the 'G :) Plus lots of backpackers who laze around in the sun.

My favorite game on Thanksgiving is "Let's find which fast-food restaurant is open right after Thanksgiving". You can drive for miles and miles and miles and..

Anna, I didn't grow up eating sausages, deli slices, pepperoni etc., so I used to get amused when I first came across the vegetarian versions of those products. But every vegetarian to him/herself. I don't think there's any one version of vegetarian behavior or act that every vegetarian has to adhere to. If some have found a way to enjoy the taste without the cruelty, more power to them. I see no reason to make them feel guilty/bad about it. And if others don't like fake meat, more power to them too. Otherwise, it becomes a game of "my version of vegetarianism" is better than yours, which is the sum total of human story in any "-ism". :)

Thanks for sharing your story.

First thanksgiving I spent in US was indeed depressing. That day is etched in my memory as I spent whole day HUNGRY!! Was in a small Oregon city on assignment all alone surviving on Burger King, McDonalds - having arrived few weeks before Thanksgiving - and all of them were closed. Had no clue what TG meant - there was no orientation for US trip / US customs unlike now. Had never cooked before in life so had no clue what to cook/eat either. Just drank water whole day. And damn phone card did not work to talk with ANYONE!

Next year was spent jostling the crowd in Fry's for some cheap hard drive (512 MB or 1GB HDD was big deal then -- woooo!!!) or something. Went to buy hard drive but ended up with some cheapo keyboard.

Thankfully with time social circle has grown and now TG is spent eatingTurkey Curry :) (can't miss curry you see - hey once a FOB, still a FOB)

BIG, I'm actually not that into the fake meat - I enjoy it once in a blue moon, and do fine if I don't get it. But it doesn't bother me if other vegetarians are really into fake meat. :)

The Country Life restaurants may have different food/menu from the school cafeteria you visited, and I haven't been to their restaurant in TN, or UK. I'm extrapolating it from my experience in Boston, their philosophy and their excellent cookbook. Their home-fries were to die for!!

Okay... thanksgiving is beginning to lose its luster for me. i just spent 4 hours in rainy, cold michigan running around to different grocery stores. i'm freezing and wet. boo! And now i have to cook 2 pasta dishes and homemade minestrone for 17! what was i thinking?!?!?!

I'm confused though... why was everyone spending thanksgiving alone? when i was in law school and i didn't go home, i went home with friends... didn't other people do that?

I love food, veggies, fruits, beans, fish, shell fish, poultry, beef and will try everything at least once (well may be not insects)
I respect people's choice regarding what they eat. I don't try to preach what they should or should not eat.

I wonder why some vegetarians/vegans have an almost evangelical zeal when it comes to converting people to their way of thinking.
about food and making condescending and some times down right insulting remarks about people who don't eat what they do.

Ducking and taking cover against the verbal brickbats of kind and gentle vegetarian folk that are surely going to follow.

Re: #69 Yogi

If you want some insight into the sometimes irrational (but not therefore necessarily wrongful) relationship we have to food, including in-group, out-group behavior, check out William Miller, The Anatomy of Disgust.

I am a bit schizy about food myself, at times.

But it doesn't bother me if other vegetarians are really into fake meat. :)

It doesn't bother me either. I guess I'm still not over the bad food I had at the university. And I thought it was ridiculous that being vegetarian is part of their religion but they were seemingly obsessed with meat because all the food items were composed of some fake, albeit very realistic looking, meat. The only vegetables were the pathetic salad bar. But as you said, the experience you had was much different. Plus we're comparing restaurant food to dorm food in which there really is no comparison.
I have been thinking about going vegetarian for awhile now and if I do, will prolly supplement my diet at times with fake meat products as I won't be able to eat dal everyday.

I don't think there's any one version of vegetarian behavior or act that every vegetarian has to adhere to. If some have found a way to enjoy the taste without the cruelty, more power to them. I see no reason to make them feel guilty/bad about it.

Where did I ever say that there was? :) All I said was that I couldn't bring myself to eat things which looked meat-y. I know I'm a mediocre writer, but if that's the impression I gave you with my comment...wow. ;)

Oh Anna, always the pugilist/opponent. ;)

I was simply presenting my views. You read more into them. :)

I respect people's choice regarding what they eat. I don't try to preach what they should or should not eat.

Yes, every vegetarian I know/am related to respects other people's choices, too. My sister, who is vegan, even COOKS meat for her friends.

I wonder why some vegetarians/vegans have an almost evangelical zeal when it comes to converting people to their way of thinking.

I wonder the same about meat-eaters who keep insisting, "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE MISSING", re: steak, calamari, sushi etc etc. ;)

about food and making condescending and some times down right insulting remarks about people who don't eat what they do.

Whoa, who was doing that? People need to stop assuming the worst about their fellow commenters, myself included. This was supposed to be a relaxed thread!

Don't make me get all Claire Huxtable/Elyse Keaton/Cindy Walsh on your asses and make you hold hands while you state what you're thankful for. ;)

Yogi, I talk about food and sustainable issues for the same reason I protest the Iraq war - my tax dollars are being wasted on subsidies to CAFOs and for land+air pollution. I'm not an evangelical vegetarian, but I am for sustainable practices. And yes, if there is a discussion on food, I will present my view (backed by facts hopefully) - what people do with those facts is totally up to them. :)

Damn, now I miss Family Ties...and my wee crush on Alex P. Keaton. Sigh.

I don't think there's any one version of vegetarian behavior or act that every vegetarian has to adhere to. If some have found a way to enjoy the taste without the cruelty, more power to them. I see no reason to make them feel guilty/bad about it.

Where did I ever say that there was? :) All I said was that I couldn't bring myself to eat things which looked meat-y. I know I'm a mediocre writer, but if that's the impression I gave you with my comment...wow. ;)

Okay, to head off any future confusion, here's the way veggies are usually segregated:

Vegans--generally no dairy products, wheat and other stuff that makes life worthwile ;)

lacto-vegetarians: dairy products allowed. No eggs, meat or seafood.

ovo-lacto vegetarians: dairy and eggs allowed. No meat or seafood

chicken vegetarians:...just kidding.

I wonder why some vegetarians/vegans have an almost evangelical zeal when it comes to converting people to their way of thinking.
about food and making condescending and some times down right insulting remarks about people who don't eat what they do.

"I often wonder why people sometimes cut me off on the highway. Then I realize that there are bad drivers and good drivers."

-Jack Hamsapaksha

As far as vegetarians that eat fake meat, most of the vegetarians that I know who do this are prior eat meaters and most often not brown. Most of the brown people I know that are vegetarians have been so for life.

yeah, i have no problem with the fake meat products as I'm not eating them in the hope that I'll get nostalgic about the pork butt I ingested earlier in life--not ever having experienced the butt certainly helps.

protein is very hard to come by if you bypass soy and wheat gluten.

I wonder the same about meat-eaters who keep insisting, "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE MISSING", re: steak, calamari, sushi etc etc. ;)

I cured my friends of this most annoying behavior by giving them the "I'm seriously angry and will terminate this years-long friendship if you continue to express astonishment at my avoidance of tripe, tongue and deep-fried bull testicles after 15 years in an Ashram and and many more in a veg household" look.

Muralimannered, thank you on this thanksgiving eve. ;)

chicken vegetarians:...just kidding

But I meet people all the time who tell me they are vegetarian. And then I ask them if they eat chicken or fish and they say yes. Most often they usually only say yes to the fish. But still, in my mind if you eat chicken or fish then you are not vegetarian. I have family in India that won't even eat egss unless it's in bread or cake as they can't see it or smell it. All of them think the smell of eggs cooking is disgusting, even those that eat eggs.
But I've never had a brown person tell me they are vegetarian and then say they eat fish or chicken.

I wonder the same about meat-eaters who keep insisting, "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE MISSING", re: steak, calamari, sushi etc etc. ;)

I remember reading a hilarious blog post (long time ago, possibly through a link on SM) by someone who presented his responses to such people in a Seinfeld-like script, with Kramer playing the meat-eater. If anyone knows the URL, will appreciate the link. Tx.

The only time that being veg or non-veg can be tricky is when you go out to eat and the restaurant is family style. When I go out to eat with friends that are strictly vegetarian then I always suggest a place that serves entrees. That way everyone is satisfied with their meal and there is no problem in ordering.

And please let's not start on the price difference between veg and non-veg entrees, we've already discussed that previously.

But I am thankful that I live in the SF Bay Area and that there are really great vegetarian options at many restaurants so that when I feel like going veggie I can without having to eat a lot of cheese or carbs.

Muralimannered, thank you on this thanksgiving eve. ;)

I try. Has anyone been low on veg options and slumped into a Hare Krishna restaurant? Whilst dodging the homeless people streaming in for the promised free feeding, one is left with little time to truly evaluate the cuisine. I did it a few times in OZ and wasn't really disappointed.

Has anyone been low on veg options and slumped into a Hare Krishna restaurant?

Somewhat related, but when I was in Brazil in February, I stayed at a Hare Krishna ashram-type place in the mountains North of Rio, and they served veggie food that wasn't half bad. I had nothing to do with the planning; the (white) friend I was visiting found the place and picked it. She is a vegetarian, and loved the food. The strange thing about the entire experience was that there were all these non-brown people there, including the Brazilians who were all wearing kurtas or saris, and there was all this Krishna-related stuff everywhere. I sat through one of the guys telling my friend all about Krishna, but he was speaking Portuguese so I didn't understand a word of it. It was odd to feel like the one who least belonged there, almost like I was the least in touch with a culture that was actually "mine."

I respect people's choice regarding what they eat. I don't try to preach what they should or should not eat.

I wonder why some vegetarians/vegans have an almost evangelical zeal when it comes to converting people to their way of thinking.
about food and making condescending and some times down right insulting remarks about people who don't eat what they do.

I tend not to get preachy about what others should eat (unless it is veal), and heck I eat non-red meat myself and even eat red meat on rare occasions, but there IS a moral argument to be made against eating meat. Apart from the sutainability point that Amit made in #76, there is also the fact that some people consider killing animals for food to be a moral wrong. Like anything else, it comes down to an issue of how preachy one wants to be about it, and certainly being too self-righteous can be annoying, but that shouldn't obscure the actual argument that underlies these beliefs. An analogy would be, say, people criticizing those who drive Hummers vs. people saying "hey, some people like hybrids and some people like Hummers, to each their own, I don't try to preach what other people drive."

But anyway ... Happy Thanksgiving! (I will be eating Turkey tomorrow.)

wow- can't believe its been a whole year since I delurked on one of Mr. Kobashi's threads about Thanksgiving last year. I will be away from home for the holiday as well, but I'm planning a potluck with friends- spotted dick sans suet on the menu.

#70- check out William Miller, The Anatomy of Disgust.

I've had great vegan meals at the Chicago location of this "chain"-(photos at bottom of page) If you check it out- go for the prince salad dressing; nutritional yeast=sooo good. It's traditional "soul" (e.g.southern) food w/o the meat. Interesting back story to the owners(?)- ,seem a bit 'out there' apparently they have a community based in Israel since 1969. The restaurant is the perfect set for a blaxploitation film,--- you feel like you are walking on to a sound stage for the 1960's-- style of dress- diashikis/Afros etc. of the wait staff.

At any rate the food is top notch- the clientele- ranges from everyday blue collar workers,young men of questionable means, U of Chic. students, bougie types, up and coming posers- everything. - not just your typical vegan/vegetarian consumer "I will spend 3x more than average" for organic ,humane, etc you normally see in a whole foods, vegan cafe etc in the US. carnivorous types dine there literally because the food is delicious.

I have been thinking about going vegetarian for awhile now and if I do, will prolly supplement my diet at times with fake meat products as I won't be able to eat dal everyday.

if you are like me and don't find too much time to cook (though i enjoy it when i can), it is a good idea. it helps if you live in, for eg., new york or sf bay area (especially the latter, from personal experience)---you will get things that don't taste like cardboard at prices that are not ridiculous. but you need more planning than fake meat products. protein is the easy problem (it is not very hard to eat even upwards of 80+g a day if you are tolerant to lactose). iron intake will be an issue, especially for women, even more so if you are an athlete. balancing out is what you need to worry most about. i have seen some close friends of mine who tried the veggie option, but soon gave up---they kept thinking that so long as they keep protein intake in mind, they should be ok. that is not true.

the thing is, if you follow a desi diet or any traditionally veggie diet (in this re: tofu/soy doesn't count since it has never been the exclusive protein source in any part of the world), you are pretty much safe. but since you are deviating from a time-tested dietary plan, lot of planning is necessary. use supplements as necessary initially, but get off them as soon as you can. talk to people like you who have been veggie, find out what they are doing. if you have friends who don't mind, cook and eat together when you can. that imo is the best approach.

best of luck. do it right, you will feel better---just as you would with any healthy diet. but never ever combine a veggie diet with ones such as atkins/southbeach and what not. it is a "recipe" for disaster.

I have to agree with post #8 (Tiger Yogiji). Tofurkey is excellent stuff. The vegetarian stuffing that goes with it is also out of this world. Products like these make it a little easier to be a vegan. (Although it isn't necessarily easy on the wallet.)

I don't know what the rest of you are talking about! Tofurky is delicious!!

P.S. Anna, if it weren't for your ankle, I would suggest volunteering at a soup kitchen this Thanksgiving. Believe me, nothing makes you appreciate the blessings of your life more, than seeing those who have less...

If you are so full of the milk of human kindness, how many tofurkeys are you sending off to Disney World to spend their dotage? Me, I repay the kindness shown my eponymous ancestors by inviting three of my white neighbors and presenting them with smallpox blankets.

Sunflower, that was beautiful. I'd love it if this turned in to a thread where people shared similar. :)

I just caught myself wishing this thread to turn into this.

Happy Turkey Day mutineers, I'm thankful for you all.

“So you have not had this…tofurkey you sent me, on Facebook?”

Comment #89 "If you are so full of the milk of human kindness, how many tofurkeys are you sending off to Disney World to spend their dotage? Me, I repay the kindness shown my eponymous ancestors by inviting three of my white neighbors and presenting them with smallpox blankets."

Huh?

Comment #89 "If you are so full of the milk of human kindness, how many tofurkeys are you sending off to Disney World to spend their dotage? Me, I repay the kindness shown my eponymous ancestors by inviting three of my white neighbors and presenting them with smallpox blankets."

Huh?

TY - I don't get the Disney World part of the quote. But I do remember learning in history class that beside malaria and other diseases brought over by the Europeans, that many Indiginous people were killed by smallpox that was on blankets given to them.

I don't know what's more obnoxious-- trying to advertise your site while flaming or being negative on a holiday thread where others are being thankful and thoughtful. Either way, take it somewhere else. Deleted.

Guru Purab de lakh lakh vadhai hovey.

Which means? :)

Which means? :)

Guru Nanak's birthday according to Indian calendar falls on Nov 24th this year

My punjabi is rusty, but here goes
Guru Purab de lakh lakh vadhai hovey. = Millions of greetings on Guru Purab

Hugs, Anna! Don't be blue-- you throw a great Thanksgiving online!

I love the idea of Thanksgiving and make the whole Thanksgiving meal with the turkey, sweet potatoes and the works! Of course I marinade my turkey with Indian spices put chipotle in my mashed sweet potatoes and make cranberry achar instead of the sweet relish.

What a great idea!

I do love fall veggies in soups and mashed with stuff and too much cream and butter and black sa;lt and kosher salt. Sweet potatoes mashed with finely chopped browned onions, cauliflower with three cheeses, carrot and dill soup, brussels sprouts quartered and microwaved with zucchini instead of water and lots of butter and kali mirch, wild rice and apple and red onion and portobello mushroom stuffing, Yukon potatoes au gratin, creamed spinach with actual cream and nutmeg, pumpkin mousse with brown sugar and Grand Marnier,pecan brittle with whipped cream.....Sonoma wines, not Bordeaux, but maybe Sancerre anyway...

The wholesale coast to coast slaughter of turkeys is a Bad Thing, it is true-- what TC Boyle says, but I have to admit one good thing about turkey meat is all that tryptophan that sends you off to sleep better than anything. Turkey and brown basmati? Kumbhakarna time!

And I thought it was ridiculous that being vegetarian is part of their religion but they were seemingly obsessed with meat because all the food items were composed of some fake, albeit very realistic looking, meat.

Alright, time for some outcry from the Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) camp - albeit a little late in the game, but seriously? Who cares if the meat looks real (a valid musing, for I wondered the same when I was about 10)if our "ridiculous" belief is promoting a healthier lifestyle? Studies have shown that the SDAs that stick to the guidelines of clean living (in addition to vegetarianism they do not use alcohol or tobacco) have a longer life expectancy than average. Anyway, you clearly have not sampled the wonderful flavor in many a Desi SDA aunty's 'Fry-Chick' curry. Scrumptious! Having said all of this, I am doomed, for I eat meat and drink, making me one very Bad SDA Indian Girl.

P.S. I also secretly wonder if the "remote university" you went to was mine. The food was not great.

Of course, she is a nut. I was just remarking on the two extremes to this conversation.

The fact that Thanksgiving has been mythologized, "nobelized" and shape-shifted towards some kind of "the pilgrims shared their feast with the backwards Indian out of kindness" is not an extreme position.

However, if people use it as a time for self-reflectance/atonement/etc.. more so than just "pigs feeding at the trough" then I'm all for it.

The wholesale coast to coast slaughter of turkeys is a Bad Thing, it is true-- what TC Boyle says, but I have to admit one good thing about turkey meat is all that tryptophan that sends you off to sleep better than anything. Turkey and brown basmati? Kumbhakarna time!

Not quite, according to this though, if it is a conclusive study:

TRENTON, N.J. - Feel sleepy after the big Thanksgiving meal today? Contrary to popular thinking, it's not the turkey's fault.

While there is an amino acid in turkey that induces sleepiness, specialists say it's much more likely that you're tired after having Thanksgiving dinner because you ate and drank too much and didn't sleep enough.

So don't blame the turkey.

"The poor turkeys have enough problems on Thanksgiving," said Dr. Carol Ash of Somerset Medical Center's Sleep for Life Center in Hillsborough, N.J.

Turkey gets blamed for making people sleepy because it contains tryptophan, an amino acid that produces the brain chemical serotonin, which promotes calm and sleepiness. But as part of a big dinner, the tryptophan has a hard time reaching the brain.

Even if it did, "you'd have to ingest quite a number of turkeys" for it to have an effect, she said.

If the tiredness has anything to do with dinner, Ash said, it would be because of carbohydrates, which studies show are more likely to make people sleepy. Even that would only be a small factor, she said. There's the travel, working longer days to get things done, and lack of sleep, along with the carbs and alcohol, she said.

Overeating also contributes to feeling tired at Thanksgiving, said Joan Salge Blake, a nutrition professor at Boston University. [Link]

It is important to make smart, healthful and sustainable food choices this thanksgiving. For those considering a different way to celebrate thanksgiving, we recommend the St Canut porcelait [Porcelet + lait]. It is a piglet reared on a diet of warm milk and vitamin rich supplements. The resulting meat is succulent, incredibly tender and lacking in the sometimes overwhelming "porky" taste one might associate with industrially raised pigs. The recipe for a slow roasted st canut piglet is given here. Enjoy.

thanks, A N N A, for this timely post. my family has been in the states for three decades and my parents still thumb up their noses at the concept of thanksgiving..."we're indian and we only celebrate indian holidays". late november was always a sad time growing up and i remember feeling intensely embarrassed trying to explain to my friends (2nd geners from other countries, including india, who did in fact celebrate with their families) why i did not go home for a big feast with family.

each thanksgiving i would end up at my best friend's house (persian) and the holiday came to signify a feast of kabobs, baghali pollo, tadiq, toorshi...with some cranberry sauce and gravy on the side...and definitely a pie of some sort. so not all was lost :-)

today i have my fiance's family...who celebrate the holiday in a big, traditional way...even though the mother is an immigrant herself...i still feel some remnants of embarrassment when i try to awkwardly explain why my parents are not vying for my presence on the holiday. i guess it works out well for the future in-laws, because they'll see their son each thanksgiving and christmas...versus other families with children who alternate holidays between two sets of families.

i woke up this morning again feeling kind of down about the whole thing and your post made me realize it's okay, there are others who are feeling similarly...i'm not alone in feeling this way.

Anna,

That cranberry pickle sounds so enticing. Do you think your mom would share her recipe?

i woke up this morning again feeling kind of down about the whole thing and your post made me realize it's okay, there are others who are feeling similarly...i'm not alone in feeling this way.

Awww, you're not alone, at all. :) There are more of us than you realize.

.

When Mom is back, I'll see about recipes...not that she's ever written anything down or measured, but what the hay.

My mom is in India for a funeral so I don't get pullau, raitha, and chicken korma like we usually have on Turkey Day! Just some Indian takeout and a movie with my dad and sister. It could be worse. Happy Thanksgiving, guys :)

Did those new immigrants proceed to murder and rape you & your family after the feast?

Sorry, I dont mean to be so pedantic on a fluff post. However, it's very important to at least know the true history of how this holiday came to be, and how its shrouded in 'nobelization' I think it's fantastic your parents have this tradition - but I think its quite problematic the 3rd grade "the pilgrims came over and had dinner" narrative of Thanksgiving is perpetuated.

HMF, Here's today's CounterPunch article on Thanksgiving. It doesn't disappoint!

Turkeys to the slaughter.

Amit, please don't wreck mu placebo sleeping pill-- so far, turkey works for me whenever I gobble some, even when I'm low carbing.

What about Thanksgiving (and christmas, for that matter) as an ex-pat in India? Much more sad than holidays like diwali or holi. I never felt the urge to go come for a few days for diwali, but the urgings to return for American holidays was intense. (and not just in India...I spent last christmas in Vietnam, went to church, heard familiar christmas carols being sung in vietnamese, and I think a tear fell.) One Thanksgiving I was dragged to the Oberoi in Bombay (or maybe the one across the street) for their dinner...I thought the idea was dumb but it was actually great; and good Turkey. But it didn't replace home cooking in the slightest....

Daniel, read the CounterPunch article by Mike Ely that I linked to above to see why other countries do not celebrate American Thanksgiving, and count yourself well catered to in Mumbai if you could eat turkey there that day. Perhaps Desi parents who refuse to observe it (and I know a Swedish woman who won't either) are right. I'm all in favor of harvest festivals, but this one needs an update. It's a bit much to expect the Vietnamese to celebrate Thanksgiving, given what it celebrates.

Just some Indian takeout and a movie with my dad and sister. It could be worse

But it didn't replace home cooking in the slightest....

Khoofia: I have done the homecooked-potluck thing in India a few times before, and its amazing some of the things that American friends managed to cook up (and that in much more provincial places than Khan Market, Delhi). But I was traveling that Thanksgiving in Bombay, and there wasn't much for doing. And I don't know if I've just lived in bad apartments and houses, but I've never had the devices necessary to bake yams, or anything else for that matter.

Amrita: I'll check out the aritcle. But I dont understand why you think I am saying that everyone should celebrate Thanksgiving, or Christmas, or any other such holiday. In fact, I thought it a little strange that the vietnamese christian community would be interested in singing the Little Drummer Boy or Deck the Halls at all.

Daniel, Christmas isn't American, but about Thanksgiving, I suspect most Americans can't tell you why it's so much bigger than Octoberfest. It certainly makes it seem to other peoples that Thanksgiving is a straightforward celebration of gluttony, which lends a comic air to the spectacle of Americans setting all else aside to eat like no tomorrow as a national holiday, see this article. I learned the Pilgrim myth as a child at The American International School in Delhi (later sold to the U.S.Embassy), so I know the enchantment of the myth, but the reality is that we participate in the wholesale slaughter of another species to commemorate, effectively, the wholesale slaughter of American Indians-- without really knowing we do. I always wondered about Lincoln's pronouncements about God having bestowed this land on the settlers...see T.C.Boyle and William Burroughs on killing turkeys, though!

Amrita, I am not unaware of these issues, but I don't think you can blame me for using the holiday to get together with my family from all over the country and eat good food, or for reminiscing and missing my family when out of the country. You yourself said "I'm all in favor of harvest festivals, but this one needs an update." Well, why can't I update it for myself?

Daniel, don't just update it for yourself, do it for everybody. Figure out a way to mitigate its bad associations and share what you figure out.

I'm not sure it's fair to place the burden of reframing Thanksgiving on anyone here. Wherever you currently are, if you grew up in America, you tend to associate this day with family, not history. It's great to consider the implications of everything, but let's be compassionate-- holidays tend to be about heart, not head. That's not always a bad thing.

Happy American Thanksgiving, everyone. This is like a virtual family table conversation, arguments and all.

Today I was going to have Italian food with a pair of vegetarian friends I imposed myself on, but then I got sick (nausea on America's biggest feast day! how ironic!) so I'm staying home.

In spite of America's ugly history with regards to genocide and slavery, I still think something positive can be salvaged from the idea of "thanks-giving." Today I'm thankful for so much, especially that I can genuinely feel gratitude, instead of just obligation to feel gratitude.

if you grew up in America, you tend to associate this day with family, not history.

For my family, this is more of a day for typical Indian dinner parties than anything else...There's special sambars,biriyanis, and for dessert? Rasmallai and Jamuns. Indian clothes are a given. So..its not as typical, but I guess in the end, we're just trying to give thanks by having a fun time..

"It's great to consider the implications of everything, but let's be compassionate-- holidays tend to be about heart, not head. That's not always a bad thing".

it is a great thing, it means something then, right or wrong, it means something!

Happy Thanksgiving to y'all :)

Any special reason why Thanksgiving is so big here ?
Its not a holiday in Europe or South America as far as I know.

Thanksgiving has actually become a big family holiday for us, largely because there are no other days in the year that everyone gets off to celebrate. We don't celebrate Christmas, it seems strange/inappropriate to celebrate on a day of remembrance (e.g. Labor Day, Veteran's Day, Memorial Day), and July 4th has a totally different meaning.

That said, I actually don't think HMF's protestations are inappropriate. When I first arrived at Cal as an undergrad I ran into people who referred to Thanksgiving as "Thankstaking", to which I inwardly rolled my eyes. My feelings on this changed dramatically over the next few years, due in large part to the fact that had friends who were Native. I do think the broader sentiment -- giving thanks -- is valuable. Maybe it just needs a renaming/reframing. At any rate, for those who are celebrating, I hope it was lovely and amazing.

Any special reason why Thanksgiving is so big here ?

...although, I think a driving force behind its popularity is the lure of capitalism a la Friday sales day :)

There, there, Daniel. I'm sorry I was so harsh. I avoided turkey and stuffing today, but nothing else. I think instead of victory prayers to God, we should observe a minute's silence for Squanto, who lost his head, life and limbs to make it possible for all of us to be here. Eating pumpkins.

Amrita, I think you've made your point well, but this is starting to remind me of the vegetarians mentioned upthread-- who, though bearing good intentions, end up turning off those whom they are addressing, if that makes sense. People are very protective of family rituals, sometimes a lighter touch (not that I'd know anything about subtletly) works best. :)

i ate sushi. and feel asleep. what's up with that? they put tryptophan in sushi too???

last year, i went to my roommate's family's house to celebrate thanksgiving.

but this year, i spent it with my family. we ate veggie pizza while watching hindi movies, but it was still nice. no turkey here, because we're vegetarians.

With most of my friends gone to celebrate this long weekend hundreds of miles away, I gathered the few remaining ones and went out for a hike this morning. Someone shared this anecdote that I thought Id pass along.

My friend went shoe shopping and as she stood in the checkout line, she stared at the desi aunty in front of her. "I don't need the box.", said the aunty. The clerk wittingly replied "Sure Madam, but we charge for recycling". His humor was obviously completely lost on our aunty who proceeded to demand taking the box with her. After some explanations, restrained laughs and lot of persuasion, she finally understood. But alas, the clerk decided to give humor a second chance as he bid our aunty farewell "Thanks, and stuff yourself with too much turkey!". The aunty stormed out saying "I wont. I'm vegetarian!".

Well, to all you solo-flyers on thanksgiving, hope you had a good one but remember it could be worse than spending it alone, you could spend it standing in line outside Circuit City waiting for it to open at 5am (seriously, I drove out there and there were 50 people in line at 9:30!)

[by the way, great blog, i just started visiting a couple of weeks ago]

I do not share the opinion expressed earlier that one has to view others' misfortunes to realize how lucky one is. it reeks of narcissism and a shade of gloat. And the plain fact is, the self-congratulations may not even be deserved; however bleak one's situation, none is more destitute than he or she who has no companion and has to seek out squalor to feel the sense of self. I was watching this feature on raven and jason and there was much to take away.

Any special reason why Thanksgiving is so big here ? Its not a holiday in Europe or South America as far as I know.

Anna, your points are well taken.

Wherever you currently are, if you grew up in America, you tend to associate this day with family, not history. It's great to consider the implications of everything, but let's be compassionate-- holidays tend to be about heart, not head.

Anna, this is very true, however, those two don't have to be mutually exclusive. That is, imagine a native american child growing up in this country, should he be taught to ignore the truth about what happened this country in the interest of "being about the heart, not the head."

I think the positive, familial, 'giving thanks'aspect of the holiday can be retained, without the "Rah Rah america is so benevolent, we saved the Indians by giving them food" narrative.

HMF, Here's today's CounterPunch article on Thanksgiving. It doesn't disappoint!

This is a good aritcle, thanks Amrita.

There has been an ongoing dispute between Virginia and Massachussetts about who celebrated the first Thanksgiving. Virginia may well have chronological priority, as the historian Arthur Schlesinger Junior, writing on behalf of John Kennedy acknowleged, but there can be little doubt that the Pilgrim Fathers and Plymouth Rock have won out in the textbooks. It raises general questions about history and certainty, which of course the very name of "Sepia Mutiny" calls attention to.

I think the positive, familial, 'giving thanks'aspect of the holiday can be retained, without the "Rah Rah america is so benevolent, we saved the Indians by giving them food" narrative.

Does anyone really think about that during Thanksgiving? All my Thanksgivings have been spent just talking about what's going on in each other's lives. Not a word about pilgrims or Indians or anything like that.

All my Thanksgivings have been spent just talking about what's going on in each other's lives. Not a word about pilgrims or Indians or anything like that.

I dont know your background, but growing up in this country, in elementary schools you usually dress up as a pilgrim or Indian (guess which one I'd always be.) and sit around the table and eat, and learn about how everyone was so friendly and cordial back then.

I can easily flip it and say, if history and past is so unimportant, why not start teaching the correct narrative ?

Bless up, I think it's a different experience for school-age kids and those with school-age kids. At school the kids get inundated with the happily-ever-after Pilgrims and American Indians story. So even if families focus on being thankful and being with family at home, the exposure to the "Thanksgiving Myth" at school eventually winds up becoming part of the discussion.

HMF, you beat me to it. Dang, I need to refresh my browser more often - I keep forgetting how fast folks type on this blog.

Reading about Anna's and other people's close relationships with their families makes me feel really sad and jealous. I always wanted to feel close and friendly to my family, never have. We don't have much in common and that has always bothered me. Oh well. You can't have it all, I guess.

I dont know your background, but growing up in this country, in elementary schools you usually dress up as a pilgrim or Indian (guess which one I'd always be.) and sit around the table and eat, and learn about how everyone was so friendly and cordial back then.

That really depends on the school you went to--public v. private may not be such an issue but I think the geographic location might be a better indicator. You do know that everything that has happened to you so far in life is not such a good indicator of how other people who grew up in the USA experienced the holiday for the first time? I grew up in this country as well, but I never had to dress up as an NA or a Pilgrim. My school generally took that time to talk to people who were actually making native history their life's work, but I guess that doesn't fit into your USA-IMPERIALIST-HEGEMONY-EVIL worldview.

HMF, Here's today's CounterPunch article on Thanksgiving. It doesn't disappoint!

Aside from publishing Benny Morris' famous "It was a genocide but it was justified" interview and the very good dispatches from one of the Cockburn brothers in Iraq, what good is that e-rag (also good was the "Hitchens was always a bastard, not just after supporting the war" comment from the Cockburn brother who heads it up)? I thought most people had grown out of it after passing through their 'symbolic action and socialism are worthwhile pursuits' stage.

You do know that everything that has happened to you so far in life is not such a good indicator of how other people who grew up in the USA experienced the holiday for the first time? I grew up in this country as well, but I never had to dress up as an NA or a Pilgrim.

As that experience has been corroborated by many, it's safe to say it's the norm for kids in grade 1-5

My school generally took that time to talk to people who were actually making native history their life's work

which school, what grade? if this is done at the elementary school level, its the first i've heard of it. The only time I remember learning about native american history in school at all was during high school, and my teacher telling us we shouldnt "over glorify the underdog" by exaggerating the native american suffering during that time.

peachy isn't it.

but I guess that doesn't fit into your USA-IMPERIALIST-HEGEMONY-EVIL worldview.

no, it doesnt. which is why it's so bizarre. like I said, if you read James Loewen's book, he surveys 13 highschool and middle school american history text books used today, none offer the true narrative of thanksgiving (and the general attitude towards native peoples)

in elementary schools you usually dress up as a pilgrim or Indian (guess which one I'd always be.)

chuckle. sorry machang, i found it a little funny. reminds me of the time when i was canoeing up north (temagami for you kids from up here) and landed on this beach. there was a wilderness camp there and the kids were playing cowboys and indians. funnily, there WAS a desi kid in there and he was playing a cowboy. So! there! so much for that theory.


interestingly later when I was driving home i met this busload of kids and their truck of canoes- jewish girls with the long black skirts - out for THEIR wilderness camp. Why dont desis have their wilderness camp, huh? why does it have to be poky little musty rooms sitting with a sad emptynester reading spirituals and eating oily bhajis. culture needs to be made. get a gun and a canoe and pepper a duck this thanksgiving.

which school, what grade? if this is done at the elementary school level, its the first i've heard of it.

We had the benefit of community members who were fairly close to the school--they provided the NA history education. This went on from the 1st till the 6th grade. I went to a parochial school in rural Virgina, there were no more than 30 kids in the middle school at any time during my stay. And no i'm not claiming that this is the majority experience but i notice you never allow for anything which disrupts the even flow of whatever narrative you're jonesing on that particular day. I did go to very conventional high-schools later on, and knew teachers at Montessouri schools in the area who did not teach the happy-round-the-table narrative but pretty much skipped the whole episode.

And so if you teach 'the real story/ies' in elementary school regarding Thanksgiving, where do you stop? Does anybody really have the time (and gumption, since local school boards in many places are top-down infiltrated by the right-wing outrage network) to teach the 'real' narrative and satisfy SOL requirements. My friends currently teaching in public middle-schools say no.

. culture needs to be made. get a gun and a canoe and pepper a duck this thanksgiving.

No thanks. Everyone is free to create their own individual "culture" as they please. Your idea of it and mine are different. No need to tell others what to do or what methods they should use to create their own cultures.

Create your's the way you see fit, and I'll create mine, even if it does mean reading spirituals and eating bhaji.

And no i'm not claiming that this is the majority experience but i notice you never allow for anything which disrupts the even flow of whatever narrative you're jonesing on that particular day.

What I said:

"but growing up in this country, in elementary schools you usually dress up as a pilgrim or Indian..."

guess that blows that theory.

Also, having proximity to a significant native population is about as rare as haleys comet, even more than that, having a school board that's willing to connect with the native population to offer some kind of correct version is even more rare.

And so if you teach 'the real story/ies' in elementary school regarding Thanksgiving, where do you stop?

cross that bridge when you get to it. ideally, you'd want to eradicate all misinformation.

My friends currently teaching in public middle-schools say no.

I never said it would be easy. Usually they say, "save that for later", the irony is, if you actually taught it correctly earlier, you wouldn't have to worry about it later.

don't recall ever dressing up like a pilgrim/indian, but i also never learned about the plight of the native americans until high school, despite slavery and jim crow being taught well before that.

Also, having proximity to a significant native population is about as rare as haleys comet,

'Usually' meaning what? your past commenting history shows that when you say 'usually' it usually means you think all other possibilities are implausible.

I didn't say I lived next to a pueblo. this is what I said:

We had the benefit of community members who were fairly close to the school--they provided the NA history education.

guess that blows your theory.

having a school board that's willing to connect with the native population to offer some kind of correct version is even more rare.

your past commenting history shows that when you say 'usually' it usually means you think all other possibilities are implausible.

Then that's just a chip on your rural shoulder. Try reading the actual statement.

When most people usually say usually, they intend the word usually to mean usually, usually.

What you said:

We had the benefit of community members who were fairly close to the school

What I said:

having proximity to a significant native population

dictionary:

proxmity = nearness in place, time, order, occurrence, or relation.

close = being near in space or time.

when you said community members, I assumed you meant native american community, if you meant swedish ballerinas slightly longer than average nails, then I apologize.

guess that blows your theory.

with what, a pea shooter?

Not everyone needs to deal with a school board

then that is even more rare.

I don't know if one could make a caricature of your commenting self as well as you do, HMF.

I'm not going to feed your insatiable hunger for pointless back-and-forths, which I can only describe as being as enjoyable as multiple prince alberts.

if you had cared to remember a single detail about another commentator other than your NOI-buddy Manju, you'd know that I grew up in an Ashram (read: religious community)and the NAs I was talking about were part of this community and knew the teachers well.

Take your snark and shove it dude, i'm done with you.

if you had cared to remember a single detail about another commentator other than your NOI-buddy Manju, you'd know that I grew up in an Ashram (read: religious community)and the NAs I was talking about were part of this community and knew the teachers well.

I dont remember details about anyone really, and would be surprised if they remembered anything about me.

Take your snark and shove it dude, i'm done with you.

Ok. although my snark detectors went up at this: but I guess that doesn't fit into your USA-IMPERIALIST-HEGEMONY-EVIL worldview.

and my snark was just... better.

Aside from publishing Benny Morris' famous "It was a genocide but it was justified" interview and the very good dispatches from one of the Cockburn brothers in Iraq, what good is that e-rag (also good was the "Hitchens was always a bastard, not just after supporting the war" comment from the Cockburn brother who heads it up)? I thought most people had grown out of it after passing through their 'symbolic action and socialism are worthwhile pursuits' stage.

muralimannered@137, CounterPunch keeps you posted, even if you don't read it every day. My very good friend's dad, Ray Close, who was a senior analyst with the CIA and then head of CIA operations in the Middle East has written in CP often, among other things to protest the Bush Administration's push to war with Iran long long ago. Vijay Prashad writes often, also P, Sainath, Uri Avnery, Missie Beattie, Tariq Ali, Ralph Nader, Mickey Z, Norman Finkelstein, Ramzy Baroud, the list goes on and on and on.. I know and correspond with some of these writers, which is one of the pleasures of the site.

muralimannered@137, CounterPunch keeps you posted, even if you don't read it every day. My very good friend's dad, Ray Close, who was a senior analyst with the CIA and then head of CIA operations in the Middle East has written in CP often, among other things to protest the Bush Administration's push to war with Iran long long ago. Vijay Prashad writes often, also P, Sainath, Uri Avnery, Missie Beattie, Tariq Ali, Ralph Nader, Mickey Z, Norman Finkelstein, Ramzy Baroud, the list goes on and on and on.. I know and correspond with some of these writers, which is one of the pleasures of the site.

I used to read it religiously in college, but grew tired of the Dr. Susan Blocks of the contributors, many of whom issued blanket generalizations of libertarians and other schools of thought not popular on the pages. Uri Avnery is nice, but unless you know someone who doesn't belong to the same political camp (i.e. having a professor who worked for the Jerusalem Post)it's hard to fact-check properly. It just began to seem like an echo chamber similar to the conservative blogs.

I generally think of Counterpunch as the Finkelstein of the e-newspaper world ( as opposed to a Peter Novick--note that I have read some of Finklestein's books and I don't believe thT he makes substantially different claims than Novick but does do it in a tone I don't don't find conducive to furthering discussion.)

murali, I went to elementary school in three different areas -- the urban East Bay Area (arguably liberal), central Ohio (conservative), and Arizona (conservative and very near a large, but segregated, Native population). All three schools made us (students) dress up as Pilgrims and Indians (in which brown/black kids were always Indians), and when we didn't dress up we still had to have a potluck, and when we didn't have a potluck they still did the Pilgrims and Indians myth-telling. My siblings, who attended different schools, all had the same experience. All these school districts were public. I think the one exception to this repetition was when I went to a progressive private school for two years, where we didn't discuss Thanksgiving at all. I think the first exposure I had to an alternative narrative re: U.S. history was when we had to read either Zinn's People's History or Lowen's Lies... for Honors U.S. History in 11th grade.

I'm not trying to fuel the fire, just saying that I don't think HMF is exaggerating. I also think the method behind how public school students are taught history (in general) is deeply problematic and makes it difficult to have meaningful dialogue when everyone gets older, but that's a different conversation.

Hey, I went to the American School in Delhi and while I never dressed up as anything but Pitti Sing in The Mikado (bad enough, esp as the mother of the Japanese girl in our class had us comeover one morning to be measured for kimono on the namuna they gave the darzi to make everybody costumes, and we did a water ballet of the Ramayana) I do remember cutting and tearing out big collage Pilgrims and Injuns and turkeys each November to decorate the plate glass, one big happy family.

Camile brings up the other thing-- out on the Left Coast I too have friend who is part Sioux. I went to the big Pow-Wow at Stanford last year, and am going to one here in NYC at the Museum of the American Indian (preferred name, I gather) which is all the way down at Bowling Green. It is a very grand and deeply sad museum. There are often contemporary art exhibitions there by AI artists.

sorry, had us come over one morning to be measured for kimonos to be made on the namuna-- I'm going blind from working at my screen all hours.

Would any DBD's/FOB's like to join me, on this special day, in offering America our heartfelt thanks for the following bounties?
1. For giving us a first-rate college education, at least compared to what we would have received at most desi institutions.
2. For allowing us to develop our professional skills and careers relatively unencumbered by corruption, favoritism, casteism, and most other "isms."
3. For giving us an economic environment where an FOB can advance from a Corolla to a Lexus in five short years.
4. For teaching us certain "western" values such as equality, greater acceptance of alternate lifestyles and beliefs, stronger work ethics, self-reliance, and a host of others.
5. And finally, for giving us the opportunity to produce a generation of desis who have the brains and sensibility to write SM, because at your age, we sure as heck couldn't have written (thought) like this.

I know gratitude towards America does not come easy to the highly educated, mostly mainstreamed DBD's, and in my younger, more arrogant days, I, too, used to believe that I made the difference, not the country. But then you compare yourself to your peers back in the old country, and you realize that their aspirations and hard work weren't any less than yours. The conditions were.

So I lift my single-malt to America and thank the natives for sharing their bounty with an Indian.

I don't know Floridian, I'll go with the nifty education, and a bunch of things you've left out, like the water supply, modern dance, great dentists and Silicon Vallry, but I've encountered the corruption of the matrimonial courts here, and especially of the attorneys, and so my vision is blurred and even bloodshot, both literally and figuratively. Also, plenty of my compadres back in Desh are doing fine, in fact doing things with gusto, and without.

So I lift my single-malt to America and thank the natives for sharing their bounty with an Indian.

Word

hey, muhammed ali is on counterpunch...now that makes sense.

hindrance, and hey

I lift my single-malt to America and thank the natives for sharing their bounty with an Indian.

that's not funny.

I don't know Floridian, I'll go with the nifty education, and a bunch of things you've left out, like the water supply, modern dance, great dentists and Silicon Vallry, but I've encountered the corruption of the matrimonial courts here, and especially of the attorneys, and so my vision is blurred and even bloodshot, both literally and figuratively. Also, plenty of my compadres back in Desh are doing fine, in fact doing things with gusto, and without.

I'm not making light of your personal situation, but are you seriously comparing the Indian justice system with the American ?

floridian, i lift my bourban towards your single malt. Corolla to a Lexus in five short years...nice.

159 · Manju on November 23, 2007 02:40 PM · Direct link
"floridian, i lift my bourban towards your single malt."

Maker's Mark or Daniels?

The Corolla-Lexus reference was just a figure of speech.

I'm not making light of your personal situation, but are you seriously comparing the Indian justice system with the American ?

For upper middle class divorce, yes, it's very very bad-- read Karen Winner's Divorced from Justice-- if only you knew what goes on, esp in NYC....

3. For giving us an economic environment where an FOB can advance from a Corolla to a Lexus in five short years.

something to be thankful for if the DBD then immediately discards the Lexus for a last-gen Supra Turbo.

floridian, i lift my bourban towards your single malt

Add a meantime to that toast.

Why are you people drinking hard liquor at three in the afternoon? It's about a harvest, you should at least be drinking Napa Valley Brut.

For upper middle class divorce, yes, it's very very bad-- read Karen Winner's Divorced from Justice-- if only you knew what goes on, esp in NYC....

Can you elaborate? How exactly is the system corrupt? The Judges and Clerks are being bribed?

162 · muralimannered on November 23, 2007 02:50 PM · Direct link
"Add a meantime to that toast."

If the stuff is half as delicious as its ad copy, I will give it a swig.

Camille@ 150: "I also think the method behind how public school students are taught history (in general) is deeply problematic..."

As others before you have posted, I think this is spot on. The number of people I know who've been through school here that did have to engage in dumbed-down and sugarcoated, spectacles on Thanksgiving (among other holidays) far outnumber those who did not, and systemically speaking, the former is clearly mainstream. I personally feel it is completely nonsensical and without any positives that could not be gained from alternative methods.

Here are some things people here might find a bit interesting. As a desi, I've been ruminating a bit on the connections between subcontinental "Indians" (pre-partition), and native Americans/"Indians". It seems that there are several historical connections of which I was previously unaware. For example, the first S. Asian immigrants to the US were Punjabi farmers who settled in California. Because of anti-miscegenation laws which prevented them from marrying other groups considered "white" at the time, and because many of them were men who wanted to start families, many married Chicano or other native American women and actually started communities together. If you go to Cali today, I'm told there are still remnants of this lost part of history in the form of the descendents of these small communities who still practice a mixture of their subcontinental and their native American culture, and live and farm on the land today.

Another interesting connection is that of the name "indian." Because Columbus and others were looking for India when they set sail, the term got tacked onto the native peoples of this continent. The frightening atrocities commited on those people by the Europeans makes me wonder just how the situation would have turned out if they had actually made it to India instead. I definitely don't believe it would have been the same and that subcontinental people would have been treated in exactly the same way, and I also don't wish to make it seem like the native Americans suffered instead of the s. Asians, but I do feel that in some sense we have a certain obligation to mourn the injustices heaped upon the various native people (not that anyone shouldn't), as a strange sort of historical connection was forged through those colonial expeditions. Finally, I've found that the events in the Americas actually did have a small influence on European expeditions to s. Asia in a few different ways, but I don't have all the sources in front of me so I won't pretend to be able to form a coherent explanation of that.

Ultimately, I think there are a few connections that desis have to both this holiday and to the associated history. Sorry for being so long-winded!

Maker's Mark or Daniels?

MM, but JD single barrel is really something.

The Corolla-Lexus reference was just a figure of speech.

and great use of the indian brands...i still have a soft spot for johnny walker red.

There are many stellar judges,viz., I think if it weren't for the fourteen good ones I had, I'd have been living under a bridge long ago, with my children.The lawyers are without exception a very corrupt bunch, will invoice you tens of thousands for work they never did, and pass money from richer clients into judges election funds to sway them, which works with some. Then there's the whole nother game going on with shrinks, but I never had that happen to me because I avoid them like the plague. But one bad-apple judge can really mess up your life for months or years. Yes, there are overall logistical problems too, no enforcement of enforceable court orders, settlements very far wide of statute ... since matrimonial is in state court, anyone can just keep their money in another state to escape juriadiction. It's crazy. I tell you, Karen Winner tells it better.

The lawyers are without exception a very corrupt bunch, will invoice you tens of thousands for work they never did, and pass money from richer clients into judges election funds to sway them, which works with some.

Wow! Without exception! Guess who works for $14 - $20 an hour with legal aid? I think you are so off the mark here that it makes no sense to even contradict you.

Manju on November 23, 2007 03:07 PM · Direct link
"i still have a soft spot for johnny walker red."

Love you for confessing to Red. It is one of my favorite brands,too, though desi customs dictate serving Black or else I would be the laughing stock of the diaspora. Black, and Chivas Regal before that, have that blandness that the real scotch connoisseur in me absolutely despises. So I drink Red a lot (well, not a lot of it in any one sitting) and drink single-malt only the Dow is up, or it's my birthday, or our anniversary, or Thanksgiving, etc.

No more liquor commentary from me!

The lawyers are without exception a very corrupt bunch, will invoice you tens of thousands for work they never did, and pass money from richer clients into judges election funds to sway them, which works with some.

I think she forgot to add the 'divorce' qualifier to the 'corrupt bunch' statement.

I am starting an ambulance-chasing/divorcee-screwing uber-firm, however, and I would love to have some legal-aid warriors on board. Individuals still retaining their souls need not apply.

and yes, there was a clerk at 60 Centre Street until a few years ago (he was found out) who would put forward divorce decrees for a particular judge for for her signature for a fee, and of course the signature would cut off all negotiations. But that is minoe, althogh there must be more of him.

What I give thanks for is Stephen Colbert, Sheri Oteri and my kids.

there are all sorts of odd discrepancies in the way history is taught. i grew up mostly in america very much aware of slavery and the holocaust, but much less so re the native americans. i guess i grew up in a moderately progressive school, as malcom x's autobio was taught early in high school and maos cultural revolution was somewhat contextualized w/i the greater good, but stalinism as not.

the ukrainin famine however was never mentioned but it may not have been completely recognized fact at the time. and somehow this whole armenian genocide thing was hidden from me until a few months back. guess the turkeys got their revenge.

Wow! Without exception! Guess who works for $14 - $20 an hour with legal aid? I think you are so off the mark here that it makes no sense to even contradict you.

I said upper middle class divorce.

Al Chutiya, muralimannerd is right I mean the eleanor alters and such of this world, eat you out of house and home, I'm talking fees now $600 an hour for doing nothing,but that;s th eleast of it, you should see what they do to make you liquidate to get their paws on what you thought belonged to you and your spouse. I represented myself for months at a time to get anything done correctly on motion,

So I lift my single-malt to America and thank the natives for sharing their bounty with an Indian.

Amrita: I have represented divorce clients before (though thats not my area of practice) and I have done some work on child support cases as well plus I know a lot of attorneys who practice in this area. I cant speak for NYC but divorce attorneys are not anymore corrupt than any other attorneys. I think a lot of divorce clients get frustated (understandbly so) when the Courts dont give them what they want and they blame the attorneys, judges and the system.

I am well aware of Karen Winner's arguments. She does have a few good points (I dont agree with her that the Family law is loaded against women) The US legal system is adversarial and that is the nature of the beast.

What you kids do, with a fluffy, semi-open thread...

Thanks, Floridian, for your comment.

I suggest that everyone read "The Divorce of Pocahantus and John Rolfe: Thanksgiving....Not !" by Chomsky,Zinn and Arundhati Roy. That will school you star spangled desis...

Would any DBD's/FOB's like to join me, on this special day, in offering America our heartfelt thanks for the following bounties?
1. For giving us a first-rate college education, at least compared to what we would have received at most desi institutions.
2. For allowing us to develop our professional skills and careers relatively unencumbered by corruption, favoritism, casteism, and most other "isms."
3. For giving us an economic environment where an FOB can advance from a Corolla to a Lexus in five short years.
4. For teaching us certain "western" values such as equality, greater acceptance of alternate lifestyles and beliefs, stronger work ethics, self-reliance, and a host of others.
5. And finally, for giving us the opportunity to produce a generation of desis who have the brains and sensibility to write SM, because at your age, we sure as heck couldn't have written (thought) like this.

I know gratitude towards America does not come easy to the highly educated, mostly mainstreamed DBD's, and in my younger, more arrogant days, I, too, used to believe that I made the difference, not the country. But then you compare yourself to your peers back in the old country, and you realize that their aspirations and hard work weren't any less than yours. The conditions were.

So I lift my single-malt to America and thank the natives for sharing their bounty with an Indian.

Best comment ever on Sepia Mutiny.

The courts saved me more than once or twice, both trial court and appellate division when the other side was busy taking ridiculous appeals. But I only got the facts before the court when I represented myself, Let's have this chat elsewhere.

louiecupher, that sounds like my kind of book.

I suggest that everyone read "The Divorce of Pocahantus and John Rolfe: Thanksgiving....Not !" by Chomsky,Zinn and Arundhati Roy.

floridian, nice comment. but i have a quibble about at least two of the "western" values you mentioned (and i suspect some other non-western cultures might have quibbles about some of the other values you mentioned). but in my opinion "stronger work ethics, self-reliance" are not exclusively western/western-invented by any stretch of the imagination. thanks.:)

I don't know what the Indian family court system is like (the necessity of having different laws based on parties' religion must make it more complicated than the U.S. version), but I'll put the American justice system over the Indian one for ensuring that the most despised accused criminals get representation.

Best comment ever on SM by Floridian.

I would like to add also chance to work with more intelligent peoples as one of the benfits that the USA give us. Something I cannot get in India.

I would like to add also chance to work with more intelligent peoples as one of the benfits that the USA give us. Something I cannot get in India.

Why would you choose to say something so degrading in a house full of Indians?? Really, I'm speechless.

Anyway, Floridian thank you so much for your comment it made me remember to count my blessings!

Floridian, I raise my glass of Talisker to you and sentiments. Amen.

I would like to add also chance to work with more intelligent peoples as one of the benfits that the USA give us. Something I cannot get in India.

Why would you choose to say something so degrading in a house full of Indians?? Really, I'm speechless.

anantarupa, it's a troll - they shouldn't be fed. Elephants keep walking, unperturbed by barking dogs.

Would any DBD's/FOB's like to join me, on this special day, in offering America our heartfelt thanks for the following bounties?

I (as a DBD) decline your offer after giving a serious thought. Though a couple of your points are valid, others are not. They are based on inaccurate generalisations.

Anyways, belated "Happy Thanksgiving".

floridian,

Its good to show gratitude, etc. but one should also remember that what the America did to you is not generosity, as you make it sound. They just paid you for the job you took up. During this process, I am confident that no American ever sacrificed personal gain for all this good that happened to you. You just happened to be a part of their optimization process or workforce needs. Thinking that its their generosity is deluding oneself into an imaginary world.

More importantly while all your points do strike me as too idealistic and a bit odd, I am surprised you forgot the most important thing to be thankful to the US for - and something which not just you or americans, but *everyone* on this earth should thank the United States for (well, more precisely, thank the large body of scientists and intellectuals in the US - both foreigners and americans) for playing such a prime role in most aspects of scientific/technological progress the world has made from the mid 90's till now. Thats the core. I don't think there was anything particularly remarkable about the US apart from this aspect. (oh, that and its beautiful landscapes :P)

corrections:
1) "the america" - "the US"
2) mid 90's ---- mid 19th century.

Got a little more to add - of course, in comparison to India on an average, its obvious that you do get paid a lot more, have a nicer house, better cars, have much better roads, seasons change colors, places are far less crowded, all buildings are temperature controlled, etc. etc. with some minor but eventually manageable negative points like a pretty bad public transport, etc.

But really, please reserve your thanks to the scientists. Attributing all the credit to the "work ethic and self reliance" of the general US workforce is being too idealistic. I don't think the situation would change at all if you replace the general workforce with any other set of people. Take away the scientists and the US is basically toast.

But really, please reserve your thanks to the scientists.

well, i didnt mean to sound that way. Take that sentence back.

for playing such a prime role in most aspects of scientific/technological progress the world has made from the mid 90's till now.

Attributing all the credit to the "work ethic and self reliance" of the general US workforce is being too idealistic. I don't think the situation would change at all if you replace the general workforce with any other set of people.

So scientific progress was made only after mid 90's ??? Thats just nuts.

Dude, I corrected the typo to mid 19th century. (-_-)
And I meant in this context, the US taking over leadership of scientific progress.

Is that why so many Indians come up with their best ideas in India??

Maybe I'm being a little slow, but I dont understand how this is a logical response to what you highlighted in my comment.

I would like to add also chance to work with more intelligent peoples as one of the benfits that the USA give us. Something I cannot get in India.

Why would you choose to say something so degrading in a house full of Indians?? Really, I'm speechless.

But the Indians in the house are mostly Indian-Americans, or Indian-Brits or other such hyphenated Indians, so they would also fall within the "intelligent" category, thus there is no insult intended to the people in this house.

What the poster is getting at is that you will not find as many educated people in India as you will find in America because a majority of the citizens of India cannot afford a good, decent, pro-longed education. If they could then you may find even more percentage of intelligent people in India than in USA.

"If they could then you may find even more percentage of intelligent people in India than in USA."

a lack of formal education and intelligence are not mutually exclusive and one (and that too, how do you define intelligent?) does not necessarily flow from the other. education is important, but don't dismiss all uneducated people as unintelligent or equate all educated people to intelligent people.

if you had cared to remember a single detail about another commentator other than your NOI-buddy Manju, you'd know that I grew up in an Ashram

Muralimannered, you grew up in an ashram in Virginia? What was the name?

a lack of formal education and intelligence are not mutually exclusive and one (and that too, how do you define intelligent?) does not necessarily flow from the other. education is important, but don't dismiss all uneducated people as unintelligent or equate all educated people to intelligent people.

True. I also wanted to add that "awareness" more than "education" makes someone "intelligent" in my opinion. Oftentimes, even a highly educated person can be "unaware" of many issues and subtleties of life, especially if they are raised in a closed environment or culture. Travel and exposure to ideas you were not raised with often expands the mind and one's outlook. But again, if you are poor and unexposed, how "open-minded" can you be? Not to equate povertry with stupidity or vice versa, but we are often limited to what we are exposed to.

Let's keep a Thanksgiving thread thoughtful and thankful and positive. Why can't we have a holiday from the usual arguing? I complimented Floridian because I liked his comment and hoped it would set an example for others to do the same. Instead, you're picking apart what he said.

What are you thankful for?

I'm thankful for all the love in my life.
For all the loving people.
For my health.
For my wealth.
For my life partner who is giving me a second and better chance at creating an ideal and dynamic relationship full of love, happiness, acceptance and gratitude!

I am thankful. I am.

i apologise for nitpicking.

but i am thankful for human frailty, a sense of humour and the ability to forgive:)The linked text

correct link

Muralimannered, you grew up in an ashram in Virginia? What was the name?

yogaville

the only one, as far as i know.

Muralimannered, you grew up in an ashram in Virginia? What was the name? yogaville

the only one, as far as i know.

Did you grow up with that guy from Weezer (also a Yogaville resident at some point I hear) ? I'm guessing he's a bit older

Did you grow up with that guy from Weezer

Rivers Cuomo.

Rivers Cuomo.

I've met him. It was only much later that I found out about Weezer and his role in it.

Did you grow up with that guy from Weezer (also a Yogaville resident at some point I hear) ? I'm guessing he's a bit older

there were two IYI Yogaville sites--one in Connecticut and the current one in VA. Rivers, i gather, lived in the earlier Connecticut site.

He's also a great deal older than myself, so I wouldn't have really had the 'experience' of growing up with him anyways.

Let's keep a Thanksgiving thread thoughtful and thankful and positive. Why can't we have a holiday from the usual arguing? I complimented Floridian because I liked his comment and hoped it would set an example for others to do the same. Instead, you're picking apart what he said.

What are you thankful for?

Because, dearest SM Intern, each of us is The Argumentative Indian in his/her own right. About Floridian's belief that he is exposed to more clever people over here, if he means more clever Desis, or even more clever Americans, that impression he has could have something to do with immigration policies that brought a disproportionate number of Desis with advanced degrees to Amreeka, but I totally can't condone that selective process by giving thanks to God for it.

Like I already said, what I love and the thing that keeps me here is Stephen Colbert, or, if you will, the fact that he can happen while the most horrendous misconduct is going on abroad in our name--- and my kids. who are terrific tri-nationals but also completely American, and free to choose or not choose who to identify with. Also the great water supply and Cheri Oteri.

Here I lie, enjoying the two screen experience, my Viao catching signals from my AirPort nicely, thanks to Google, which helped me find the way change the WEP string on my AirPort the right way, so that now, I don't even have to get up and go to my big computer (so loaded with Adobe applications and FinalCutPro and Quark that I'm most fond of it) to party at SM. I'm watching John Howard leave and Kevin Rudd appear with my other eye, and Vijay Mallya saying whoever wants to play in India needs to play with him--so I'm thankful for techie stuff, yes, absolutely!

I had to come back on here and clarify my statement - especially since some people on here labelled me a troll because I dared make a statement that most of you know is true but won't ever admit to.

I have worked for half my professional life in Bangalore and half in the US. The difference in the working styles and productivity of my co-workers couldn't have been more stark. Here, I don't have to worry about showing the boss that I am working hard by staying at work until 10 pm. I do my deliverables and go home. As long as the work gets done, I am fine. Secondly, I wasn't really doing anything cutting edge when working in Bangalore - despite all the blah blah blah that your read in the media, I was doing shit work supporting engineers in the US. Here, I work with engineers from top-notch schools, actually work on next generation products and can come and go as I please.

So, I stand by my original post. And no I am not a troll. Let's be honest for a change and admit that the opportunities to work with leaders in so many different fields are something that we take for granted here but which are not available in India.

"5. And finally, for giving us the opportunity to produce a generation of desis who have the brains and sensibility to write SM, because at your age, we sure as heck couldn't have written (thought) like this.

I know gratitude towards America does not come easy to the highly educated, mostly mainstreamed DBD's, and in my younger, more arrogant days, I, too, used to believe that I made the difference, not the country."

I fully agree and echo the sentiments expressed above. And I am thankful.

A 55 Thanksgiving edition would have been cool!

Thankful for family, friends, food (great food), music, winter, and all the crazy people in this world that smile and never yawn.

Pongali, not sure what your point was, especially since it didn't make sense, but that's why your first comment was deleted. If you're interested in the personal lives of the bloggers here, perhaps you should email them directly vs. doing whatever it is you were attempting.

This has turned out to be a very interesting thread!
Muralimannered--my brother lives near (he is at UVA Hospital) Yogaville--should I visit it next time I'm down there?

#208 Amrita, "About Floridian's belief that he is exposed to more clever people over here,..."

Amrita, I didn't make that remark. You are confusing me with PardesiDesi. To his credit, though, his conclusion was based on actual work experience in both countries (read #209).

Thanksgiving

Warmth starts in the kitchen and drifts through the air,
small stresses and preparations for gathering
family, friends, and pet companions, both old and new;
political and spirit-guided conversations,
opening how we are
as latecomers join in.
With a light rain drizzling in a scattered storms forecast,
the grand dinner is set outside,
wind drifts playful oak leaves into dinner plates and coffee cups,
such rustic dining declared.
After deep naps and late parties, the full moon rose with the cricket's song.

The Christmas and holiday season begins
on the radio and store shelves, and
with aspirations and accommodations,
the goal is to not be shy of peace.

Hooray for this post, it felt like a weekend-long house party, with the same people commenting for days. Thanks, posters, it was fun to slip out of the eating-shopping-entertaining-cleanup cycle every now and then to read about everyone's take on the holiday.

Finally, we should also thank the indian government for subsidizing technical education at the cost of its primary education infrastructure (and hence its poorer citizens) so that technically educated indians--the most privileged-- could "escape" (after being subsidized) for a better life in the u.s. where apparently they suddenly realize what they were missing. In fact they can then further rant about the stupidity of the average indian (whose taxes funded their "superior" education), and bemoan the lack of mobility in india while they extol--nay, wax eloquent-- the virtues social mobility in the u.s. again, a belated happy thanksgiving...

funny, my father thanked nehru at the dinner table for providing him with a medical education. not sure to what degree this was done at the expense of primary education, as sigh! bemoans, but in my fathers case he grew up village poor and malnutritioned. he knew various "ism" would keep him from reaching his full potential in india. So he "escaped." at the dinner table was another doctor who really had to escape bihar for less abstract reasons, if you catch my drift. so another thanks to Nehru for making sure his collectivism was hedged by his liberalism, so he could never become a castro who believes individuals exist for the good of the state, at the expense of their individual freedom.

karma comes around they say. and now those escapies are returning to help India realize her full potential. thanks to the financiers and venture capitalists who are on the ground doing this. so thanks to the likes of vinod khosla. thanks to all those succesful immigrants who are giving to pratham. thanks to america for exporting capitalism. and india for importing it.

yeah, i'm sure that that the indian population in the u.s. is comprised overwhelmingly of low caste biharis and other low caste north indians; but you didn't really understand the drift of my comment (and i don't think you tried since certain words distracted you and you in turn imputed meaning to them, no disrespect). the point was that it is kinda ironic that the very strata of indian society that overwhelmingly benefited from the indian state after independence "escaped" to the u.s. and they remain blissfully oblivious when they (with some reason; so good for them) criticize stratification in india ,when in fact they were the primary beneficiaries of such stratification.

any by the way where in heavens name (again no offense) did you detect a disapproval of "capitalism", in my comment?

thanks to america for exporting helping India rediscover capitalism.

Chettiars were practicing capitalism when ur-John Smith was fighting off Normans and drinking mead

typo, i meant "and" above...

Chettiars were practicing capitalism when ur-John Smith was fighting off Normans and drinking mead

the point was that it is kinda ironic that the very strata of indian society that overwhelmingly benefited from the indian state after independence "escaped" to the u.s. and they remain blissfully oblivious when they (with some reason; so good for them) criticize stratification in india ,when in fact they were the primary beneficiaries of such stratification.

i got your point. i dont necessarily disagree with the gist, other than to add that privilege is relative. your average immigrant is probably bourgeoisie: professionals, nerds, etc; as opposed to land owning aristocarts who i would say are the ones who benefit the most from india's stratification, castism, socialism, and statism. sure, that makes them more privileged than some, but also less then others.

and also to add that men like my father and uncle at the table, both of whom remember independence day, aren't really "blissfully oblivious", they experienced it first hand. and most importantly, one can see the good karma of indian liberalism coming back in the form globalization.

any by the way where in heavens name (again no offense) did you detect a disapproval of "capitalism", in my comment

i didn't

i didn't mean your father; i meant the kind of attitude exemplified by floridian's comment (again this is not to say i have a necessarily normative take on it). cheers...

the point was that it is kinda ironic that the very strata of indian society that overwhelmingly benefited from the indian state after independence "escaped" to the u.s. and they remain blissfully oblivious when they (with some reason; so good for them) criticize stratification in india ,when in fact they were the primary beneficiaries of such stratification

This will forever haunt the conscientious Indians who have emmigrated and do reasonably well here. Maybe this is the reason that they are torn apart in their own way with the question what use is their work for society in general and India in particular.

@ 218,

Finally, we should also thank the indian government for subsidizing technical education at the cost of its primary education infrastructure (and hence its poorer citizens) so that technically educated indians--the most privileged-- could "escape" (after being subsidized) for a better life in the u.s. where apparently they suddenly realize what they were missing. In fact they can then further rant about the stupidity of the average indian (whose taxes funded their "superior" education), and bemoan the lack of mobility in india while they extol--nay, wax eloquent-- the virtues social mobility in the u.s. again, a belated happy thanksgiving...

sigh !,
Have you read Vijay Prasad's "Karma of Brown folks" You will like it.

You guys can't take a break from the complaining, even for a holiday weekend. Doesn't it exhaust you, to be so offended by people who don't mean to upset? It's so easy to be negative, to call out immigrants for being leeches as the impoverished masses shiver and starve...but we're all here because of those leeches. Those leeches are our parents.-

I get that it's important to be critical and contemplative, but some of you don't seem to understand that there are certain times and threads which are more appropriate for your outrage. Thanks for constantly ignoring what the intern/blogger was trying to do with this "virtual thanksgiving". Some of us have really enjoyed your boorishness.

i didn't mean your father; i meant the kind of attitude exemplified by floridian's comment

How do you know that Floridian is not one of those Indian immigrants success stories, where immigrants utilize their entrepreneurial spirit (which was suppressed) and created jobs and wealth?? and may be more capable of comparing business echo systems between the two countries?? It is easy to judge (easier when you have no idea about the person).

@ 228 ,

I get that it's important to be critical and contemplative, but some of you don't seem to understand that there are certain times and threads which are more appropriate for your outrage.

For the love of ...,
I agree with you completely

How do you know that Floridian is "blissfully oblivious" of anything?? How do you know whether or not Floridian came from privilege in India or not?? How do you know that Floridian was beneficiary of stratification or he/she does or does not criticize stratification??

jesus, read what i said carefully....for your benefit i'm quoting myself again (this time with relevant parts italicized nd boldened to aid comprehension):

i meant the kind of attitude exemplified by floridian's comment(again this is not to say i have a necessarily normative take on it)

...and observations are not necessarily complaints. brij, thanks, i'll look into vijay prashad's book.

...and observations are not necessarily complaints

This has turned out to be a very interesting thread! Muralimannered--my brother lives near (he is at UVA Hospital) Yogaville--should I visit it next time I'm down there?

rob,

Yes, definitely make a trip out there if you can. Charlottesville--Yogaville will take no more than an hour's drive.

*everyone* on this earth should thank the United States for (well, more precisely, thank the large body of scientists and intellectuals in the US - both foreigners and americans) for playing such a prime role in most aspects of scientific/technological progress the world has made from the mid 90's till now. Thats the core. I don't think there was anything particularly remarkable about the US apart from this aspect. (oh, that and its beautiful landscapes :P)

random @ 190, you forgot to include Hollywood. All these foolish science/scientists come last.

well, we all benefit from India, and her Diaspora's, success...as this article points out.

we've even earned Mr. Kobayashi's begrudging respect. Which is why we've allowed him to join the team.

I'm watching John Howard leave and Kevin Rudd appear with my other eye,

No more liquor commentary from me!

floridian, i lift my bourban towards your single malt

#208 Amrita, "About Floridian's belief that he is exposed to more clever people over here,..."

Amrita, I didn't make that remark. You are confusing me with PardesiDesi. To his credit, though, his conclusion was based on actual work experience in both countries (read #209).

Sorry about the confusion, Floridian. PardesiDesi, I still think being identified as a clever person at the outset of one's otherwise undefined new phase of life creates a change in the ierms upon which one interacts with the people in one's immediate environment, I can assure you nobody back home thinks I'm anywhere neat the sharpest knives in the drawer.

Melbourne Desi, is he known at home as KRudd?

jesus, read what i said carefully....for your benefit i'm quoting myself again (this time with relevant parts italicized nd boldened to aid comprehension):

!sigh, that would be EMboldened.

Doesn't it exhaust you, to be so offended by people who don't mean to upset?

for the love of......., yes, I agree, it did exhaust me to feel vaguely offended while in a daze of gustatory anticipation. If I were less exhausted, for example, I coulda shoulda woulda told young Daniel that it would be the same if he felt left out on Diwali in Delhi, but missing one's folks and foodstuffs while expatting and saying the place one's in doesn't satisfy doesn't mean the same thing at all. And Daniel, if you're reading this, don't cry in churches, buddy, use your phone.

Lets be thankful for the 650,000 Sand #$%#s killed in Iraq.

Let's be thankful for the destruction of native civilizations, made fun of by self-congratulating janissaries so that upper caste Indians can come over here and absorb themselves into prosperous whiteness when the typical Indian is a half-starved wastrel, thanks to his government, and thanks to the opportunists without a national sense, who left it all behind.

Let's be thankful for all the old parents we've brought here to rot alone in front of television sets, because we've found that money matters more than family.

Let's be thankful for the 100,000,000 Turkeys slaughtered on Turkey day.

Let's be thankful for the crassest consumerism ever known to man, a de-spiritualized culture, and global warming which leads to global oblivion.

Let's be thankful for being among the ten percent of mostly white people (and now a few asians) who live away from the constant threat of disease and starvation, thanks to our own brilliance and natural ability to "work with smart people" of course.

Let's be thankful for obesity, alzheimer's disease (and now autism) all diseases of prosperity.

Have a great Sunday night. Be sure to check your portfolio before tomorrow's opening, and readjust the damn 401k, will ya? That emerging markets overexposure will kill you, every time.

So Amber, will you join me in proposing we stop killing turkeys to commemorate the slaughter of American Indians and observe at least minute of silence on Thanksgiving Day for those to whom we owe everything?

Or really at least five minutes of silence.

Melbourne Desi, is he known at home as KRudd?

Let's be thankful for the destruction of native civilizations, made fun of by self-congratulating janissaries so that upper caste Indians can come over here and absorb themselves into prosperous whiteness when the typical Indian is a half-starved wastrel, thanks to his government, and thanks to the opportunists without a national sense, who left it all behind.

I hate to Lou Dobbs it here, but Amber there's a warm, open-sewage trench just calling your name in any number of rural locations in India. If your vaunted 'national sense' compels you to stew in misery and despair, by all means leave the opportunity to us'evil' opportunists who escaped not only societal discrimination but also rape, murder and other assorted iniquities associated with being the wrong minority in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As for the 'prosperous whiteness' you speak of, there is a free market here (not pure) and everyone may participate. If it bothers you that the vast majority of this wealth was created by caucasian people, I suggest you take your 'utopian' visions of brown-only prosperity and park it next to National Socialism.

Better yet, endow a chair in "Whiteness Studies" at a (gasp!) whiteness-engulfed American university and collate the results into your very own "The Oppression of Whiteness" series (like the Subaltern one but spicier!).

Don't be so quick to assume that SM is an Indians-only space, they're certainly a majority but i don't see any signs here warning Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Nepalis and Lankans to keep out.

Manju how about a Wild Turkey?

I thought you were tempting ua with jenna.

Murali, I agree with your first and last paragraphs wholeheartedly.

Perhaps I have misread you, but it seems you are reading Amber's comments on whiteness as some kind of blanket prejudice or advocacy against white people, which is not necessarily what was implied. Amber's use of the term whiteness is spot on, except for the fact that no one from the subcontinent is becoming white.

I thought you were tempting ua with jenna.

He brought in the Chinese vote due to his Mandarin skills.

Aha, thanks for clarifying that, Melbourne Desi. All this time, i thought he was Chinese.

So Amber, will you join me in proposing we stop killing turkeys to commemorate the slaughter of American Indians and observe at least minute of silence on Thanksgiving Day for those to whom we owe everything?

242 · amber pilsner

Let's be thankful for the crassest consumerism ever known to man

Woot, woot--I got a Garmin nuvi 200w today on sale at BestBuy! It takes my mind off of all kinds of troubling stuff!

All this time, i thought he was Chinese.

Lets be thankful for the 650,000 Sand #$%#s killed in Iraq.

How is the observance of Thanksgiving related to the Iraq war?

Let's be thankful for the destruction of native civilizations, made fun of by self-congratulating janissaries so that upper caste Indians can come over here and absorb themselves into prosperous whiteness when the typical Indian is a half-starved wastrel, thanks to his government, and thanks to the opportunists without a national sense, who left it all behind.

I thought the pilgrims were peaceful, religious-minded folk who came here to be able to freely practice their religion, and hence, when met with the native Indians, greeted them in peace and lived peaceably among them, while it was the colonizers, the men who sought power in a new land, who waged war amongst the Indians. The two are distinct groups, are they not?

Let's be thankful for all the old parents we've brought here to rot alone in front of television sets, because we've found that money matters more than family.

Amber, the only parents rotting alone in front of TVs are the parents with no life. And they are doing that in India as well. One cannot expect one's children and grand-children to spend all of their time with them, we have jobs, school, etc. If a person does not have any interests, hobbies, etc outside of watching TV, who's fault is that? At the very least they could "get religion" and keep themselves occupied at the mandir/mosque/temple/puja room. There are so many things to do in life. One does not become "old" just because they are retired. Join a gym or become a senior tri-athelete! Volunteer at your local shelter for victims of domestic violence. There are so many useful things seniors can do with their time, bodies and minds besides zoning out in front of Zee TV and lamenting how everyone else has a life except for them.

Let's be thankful for the 100,000,000 Turkeys slaughtered on Turkey day.

Thanksgiving and Hajj to Mecca are two of the most gruesome and bloody "sacrifices" allowed to still exist in this day and age. Odd how "religious" and "traditional" events, which are supposed to be celebratory and wholesome result in the wholesale torture and slaughter of innocent living beings. There's no excuse for it really.

Let's be thankful for the crassest consumerism ever known to man, a de-spiritualized culture, and global warming which leads to global oblivion.

Crass consumerism cannot be checked as long as there are people watching TV. Refer to comment above about "getting a life".

Let's be thankful for being among the ten percent of mostly white people (and now a few asians) who live away from the constant threat of disease and starvation, thanks to our own brilliance and natural ability to "work with smart people" of course.

Many Indians and other Asian people came to this country poor and desperate to escape dangerous situations in their own countries. Why not be thankful that they were able to relocate and make a better life for their kids? After all, parents always want a better life for their kids than they had themselves, nothing wrong with that. Not all of us are crass consumers gone wild.

Let's be thankful for obesity, alzheimer's disease (and now autism) all diseases of prosperity.

Alzheimer's is a weird one. I sometimes speculate that it could be the result of not "having a life". I see old people who, like you say, sit in front of the TV all day with no higher purpose in life, and I wonder if that could be what is deteriorating their minds and psyches? Get religion people. On the other hand it may just be a new name for something that has been around for ages, maybe it's just getting more publicity now than ever before, now that people are living longer than they used to on average.

Have a great Sunday night. Be sure to check your portfolio before tomorrow's opening, and readjust the damn 401k, will ya? That emerging markets overexposure will kill you, every time

Don't have a 401K.

Have a great Sunday night. Be sure to check your portfolio before tomorrow's opening, and readjust the damn 401k, will ya? That emerging markets overexposure will kill you, every time

Don't have a 401K.

There is nothing wrong with planning for and securing your future. Afterall, we cannot expect that anyone will take care of us or provide $$$ for us come retirement. We have to watch our own backs. Why the bitterness towards people who have the ability to do that, Amber? It doesn't mean that they are also not contributing to those less financially fortunate than they are. Afterall, all NGOs and other orgs created for helping the needy need money from people who have it in order to do anything. In order to help those who don't.

Muralimannered, are the sexual exploitation accusations against the leading Swami, founder of Yogaville, true?

If so, I would also hold that the adults who serviced the Swami are at fault for going against their conscience. I mean, if my priest asked me to perform a sex act with him, as a thinking adult, I would refuse and not go back. So why did these adults act like children who did not know any better?

Bless Up@ 254

"I thought the pilgrims were peaceful, religious-minded folk who came here to be able to freely practice their religion, and hence, when met with the native Indians, greeted them in peace and lived peaceably among them, while it was the colonizers, the men who sought power in a new land, who waged war amongst the Indians. The two are distinct groups, are they not?"

It's difficult in many cases to make this distinction. Even the term "pilgrim", which is traditionally used to define people who are making religious journeys, isn't completely accurate here. When those settlers landed, they already knew that there would be other people living there, and even many of their early interactions with the natives were not necessarily of a peaceful and cooperative sort. Not to say that they were all hateful racists either, but that trend of thought and action was always a factor, and unfortunately the one that won out. The historical Thanksgiving was more of a strategic summit than a feast of cooperation. Negotiation was the main reason for the two groups meeting on that day.

Not to say that they were all hateful racists either, but that trend of thought and action was always a factor, and unfortunately the one that won out.

Having moved for religious reasons, they believed the sudden death of many natives (with the diseases the europeans brought over, due to their lack of hygiene among othe things) was part of some kind of divinity inspired morality play. They believed God chose them over the 'dark skinned native'

Having moved for religious reasons, they believed the sudden death of many natives (with the diseases the europeans brought over, due to their lack of hygiene among othe things) was part of some kind of divinity inspired morality play. They believed God chose them over the 'dark skinned native'

Any evidence for this attitude? Books, chronicles, diaries?

Can we really know what those individuals were thinking?

Should I just assume that they wanted to live peacefully and practice their own religion, while not mixing closely with those who were not adherents to the same?

That's basically the same attitude that the devoutly religious the world over today have. They tend to move amongst their own, dealing with "outsiders" for purposes of neccessity as well as to "share" their "knowledge" with interested parties.

I can't think of too many devout Hindus, or any actually, that regularly attend churches and mosques as well, or devout Muslims who mix and mingle closely with devout Hindus or Wiccans.

Birds of a feather tend to flock together. That does not mean however that animosity towards the "other" is neccessarily latent in their hearts.

Rap singers hang with rap singers, not country or folk singers.

This is the story told by the American Indians.

THE REAL STORY OF THANKSGIVING

by Susan Bates
Most of us associate the holiday with happy Pilgrims and Indians sitting
down to a big feast. And that did happen - once.

The story began in 1614 when a band of English explorers sailed home to
England with a ship full of Patuxet Indians bound for slavery. They left
behind smallpox which virtually wiped out those who had escaped. By the
time the Pilgrims arrived in Massachusetts Bay they found only one
living Patuxet Indian, a man named Squanto who had survived slavery in
England and knew their language. He taught them to grow corn and to
fish, and negotiated a peace treaty between the Pilgrims and the
Wampanoag Nation. At the end of their first year, the Pilgrims held a
great feast honoring Squanto and the Wampanoags.

But as word spread in England about the paradise to be found in the new
world, religious zealots called Puritans began arriving by the boat
load.

Finding no fences around the land, they considered it to be in the
public domain. Joined by other British settlers, they seized land,
capturing strong young Natives for slaves and killing the rest. But the
Pequot Nation had not agreed to the peace treaty Squanto had negotiated
and they fought back. The Pequot War was one of the bloodiest Indian
wars ever fought.

In 1637 near present day Groton, Connecticut, over 700 men, women and
children of the Pequot Tribe had gathered for their annual Green Corn
Festival which is our Thanksgiving celebration. In the predawn hours the
sleeping Indians were surrounded by English and Dutch mercenaries who
ordered them to come outside. Those who came out were shot or clubbed to
death while the terrified women and children who huddled inside the
longhouse were burned alive. The next day the governor of the
Massachusetts Bay Colony declared "A Day Of Thanksgiving" because 700
unarmed men, women and children had been murdered.

Cheered by their "victory", the brave colonists and their Indian allies
attacked village after village. Women and children over 14 were sold
into slavery while the rest were murdered. Boats loaded with a many as
500 slaves regularly left the ports of New England. Bounties were paid
for Indian scalps to encourage as many deaths as possible.

Following an especially successful raid against the Pequot in what is
now Stamford, Connecticut, the churches announced a second day of
"thanksgiving" to celebrate victory over the heathen savages. During the feasting, the
hacked off heads of Natives were kicked through the streets like soccer
balls. Even the friendly Wampanoag did not escape the madness. Their
chief was beheaded, and his head impaled on a pole in Plymouth,
Massachusetts -- where it remained on display for 24 years.

The killings became more and more frenzied, with day s of thanksgiving
feasts being held after each successful massacre. George Washington
finally suggested that only one day of Thanksgiving per year be set
aside instead of celebrating each and every massacre. Later Abraham
Lincoln decreed Thanksgiving Day to be a legal national holiday during
the Civil War -- on the same day he ordered troops to march against the
starving Sioux in Minnesota.

This story doesn't have quite the same fuzzy feelings associated with it
as the one where the Indians and Pilgrims are all sitting down together
at the big feast. But we need to learn our true history so it won't ever
be repeated. Next Thanksgiving, when you gather with your loved ones to
Thank God for all your blessings, think about those people who only
wanted to live their lives and raise their families. They, also took
time out to say "thank you" to Creator for all their blessings.

It is sad to think that this happened, but it i s important to understand
all of the story and not just the happy part. Today the town of Plymouth
Rock has a Thanksgiving ceremony each year in remembrance of the first
Thanksgiving. There are still Wampanoag people living in Massachusetts.
In 1970, they asked one of them to speak at the ceremony to mark the
350th anniversary of the Pilgrim's arrival. Here is part of what was
said:

"Today is a time of celebrating for you -- a time of looking back to the
first days of white people in America. But it is not a time of
celebrating for me. It is with a heavy heart that I look back upon what
happened to my People. When the Pilgrims arrived, we, the Wampanoags,
welcomed them with open arms, little knowing that it was the beginning
of the end. That before 50 years were to pass, the Wampanoag would no
longer be a tribe. That we and other Indians living near the settlers
would be killed by their guns or dead from diseases that we c aught from
them. Let us always remember, the Indian is and was just as human as the
white people.

Although our way of life is almost gone, we, the Wampanoags, still walk
the lands of Massachusetts. What has happened cannot be changed. But
today we work toward a better America, a more Indian America where
people and nature once again are important."

Not trying to bring down the thread but here is a little something to grow on.

his son in law has a chinese surname - Tse ;) from the great Mao I suppose. were you serious about the comment about him being of chinese descent. He is a classic rags to riches story - one not very common in Oz.

Melbourne Desi, I was serious. I mean, look at this...and this...and of course this. you'd think he had a Chinese grandmother who took care to teach him stuff, not a SIL.

BTW, Not what the Pilgrims and Puritans thought, BlessUp, what they did.

"I thought the pilgrims were peaceful, religious-minded folk who came here to be able to freely practice their religion, and hence, when met with the native Indians, greeted them in peace and lived peaceably among them, while it was the colonizers, the men who sought power in a new land, who waged war amongst the Indians. The two are distinct groups, are they not?"

Religion and peace at that day and age were mutually exclusive.. Sure they came over to Americas to practice "their" religion. But it didnt mean that they were friendly with other religious or non religious cultures. All they were trying to do was escape persecution, because of "their" religious beliefs . It didnt mean that they didnt persecute others. If only they had believed in "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." rather than "I am the only way".....

Any evidence for this attitude? Books, chronicles, diaries?

James Loewen's Lies (chapter on the first thanksgiving)

Should I just assume that they wanted to live peacefully and practice their own religion

No. because it's historically incorrect. they escaped persecution, they didn't have time to pack board games. They wouldn't have survived had it not been for their interaction with the natives. Indeed, terms like "pilgrim" and "settlers" are euphamisms and general whitewashes.

Doug,

I appreciate your comment. It IS important to remember those who were decimated and your comment did that without alienating people or putting them on the defensive.

I think it's possible to say a prayer for those who were victims of injustice then as well as those who still are, now, even as you are happy that you get to see your family for a few days. We rarely get to spend time with each other, this is one of the only times during the year when that's possible and I don't think people should be made to feel bad for looking forward to, enjoying or cherishing that.

I'm not sure what some of you expect from your peers; that they not eat with their families? Should we wear black and mull over tragedy? Or should we celebrate life and love when we can, without that being unfairly labeled as selfish or ignorant? Some of the assumptions are amusing, too. I did want this to be a positive thread and as the person who started it, that's my right. But, I spent thanksgiving alone. I did not shop on black Friday. And yet, I wanted this thread to be about mindfulness, gratitude and goodwill. But hey, it's easier to dismiss me and my idealist ilk as mindless, callous assholes who cheer dead Iraqis and crassly consumer our way through the 3am crowds, right? I'm so sick of saying this but it's not either/or, people. You can celebrate thanksgiving, be mindful of what the original intent of it was and eat with loved ones, all at the same time.

I can't think of too many devout Hindus, or any actually, that regularly attend churches and mosques as well, or devout Muslims who mix and mingle closely with devout Hindus or Wiccans.

I attended church services nearly every week for a couple of months last year... I still go once in a while. & I'm Hindu. So we do exist. Some of the more popular religious figures from the subcontinent transcended religious identity themselves, e.g. Shirdi Sai Baba, Kabir, Guru Nanak Dev, and I'm sure there are more.

oh and to get back to the original intent of this thread. thanksgiving is my favorite holiday of the year, because it involves family and food. i'm thankful for the one day/the one holiday weekend a year when my family can let go of its intergenerational, decades-long drama to just eat and be merry.

Don't get me wrong I enjoy Thanksgiving, I just put that up for the poster that wanted proof of what happened. I had a great time and my brother's even though my niece destroyed the sweet potato pie my step mother made.

Bless Up,

If you wish to talk about yogaville further, i'll respond to queries sent to my email which i've included in the handle link.

otherwise it's a bit too off-topic, even for this thread.

266 · nala I attended church services nearly every week for a couple of months last year... I still go once in a while. & I'm Hindu.

Tres syncretic!
;-)

I attended church services nearly every week for a couple of months last year... I still go once in a while. & I'm Hindu

I know of Hindu guys who do it to get laid. I assume that was not your goal.

I know of Hindu guys who do it to get laid. I assume that was not your goal.

Haha, actually it kind of was. I went last year when the guy I was going out with was an evangelical Christian (didn't work). My boyfriend now is Christian (the St. Thomas kind), but in a way that's more compatible with me (and, um, I didn't need it to work).

I'm so sick of saying this but it's not either/or, people. You can celebrate thanksgiving, be mindful of what the original intent of it was and eat with loved ones, all at the same time.

Anna @ 265, thanks for your comments. I think you're right on here. I actually posted some thoughts about this very question on my blog on Thanksgiving-- I think it's important, especially for those of us who descend from the colonizers of this country, to wrestle with this question. At the same time, it's the most important culinary day of the year in the US, and the only one whose traditional foods celebrate American foodways, which I love; and as you mentioned, we all get so little time off to see our families, we've got to make the most of that.

Melbourne Desi, I was serious. I mean, look at this...and this...and of course this. you'd think he had a Chinese grandmother who took care to teach him stuff, not a SIL.

i gather from the sound of his voice and the comments under the YouTube videos that he speaks in a very polisged and correct Mandarin, as one might speak with people of a a much older generation. And he totally uses a different repertoire of intonation and gestures, so that really he gives the impression of being Chinese=-- nothing halfway. Anyway, he'll certainly change politics in his part of the world and beyond--the anti-Chris Patton. Did you see him thank Hu for the pandas? That was great! Interesting that he was posted to Stockholm for a long while, too.

Interesting that he was posted to Stockholm for a long while, too.

I have zero knowledge of Mandarin; just registering the response of the newscaster, KRudd's apparent comfort level,
what the YouTube commentators say, viz., "His Mandarin is better than my family's."-- it's clearly a fairly plummy accent, maybe passed along in the teaching traditions at ANU? Never having seen a video of him speaking Swedish, I would venture a guess that it wouldn't be too shabby, since Swedish is pretty much descended from Middle English, with frills.

Sorry, I should have said Swedish is a cousin of Middle English, a few times removed. And maybe KRudd speaks in the Mandarin he put into practice as a diplomat in Beijing.

would venture a guess that it wouldn't be too shabby, since Swedish is pretty much descended from Middle English, with frills.

If it were language alone, I'd still think he's amazing. There will be a huge change of attitude in his wake. My young friend in Beijing confirms, "Kevin really speaks excellent mandarin...haha...bringing an ever brighter future to the Sino-Aus relationship!"