December 03, 2007
Turban + Beard = No <3?Identity
Last week, I wrote a post about ABC’s Notes From the Underbelly (which, btw, is on tonight at 9:30) and most of the comment thread was as fun and fluffy as I expected it to be. In light of that, I am half-willing to apologize for my bromidic attempt at virtually playing the right and left sides of the audience off each other, like it was an old skool rap concert or a pep rally, but most of you resisted my super-smack talk about Sunkrish vs Sendhil so all’s well that ends well…or is it?
One of the last comments on my post was left on Thursday, and it has bothered me since:
Punjabi Sikh kudis prefer clean-shaven men sans turban. They are quite vocal about that on all the Sikh dating and matrimonial sites. It has reached a crisis level in Canada and US with many Sikh men having to go to Desh to find a woman willing to take them with beard, turban and all. [link]
The handle this person chose (Broken Hearted Munda Looking for Kudi) made me extra sad. One of my closest friends is in this exact situation. He’s brilliant, hilarious, considerate and one of the sweetest people I have ever met—and he’s still single. And in his mid/late 30s. What would “normally” make a non-trivial number of girls gasp or pick out curtains— i.e. every attribute I listed in the last sentence PLUS two ivy degrees— seems to come second to the fact that he is a rather Orthodox Sikh. I don’t think the issue is his tee totaling/clean living; I think it’s his turban and beard.
Today, we received another pained comment, from a different person (Munda Still Looking for Kudi), on the same thread:
These women also cite 9/11 and subsequent discrimination against turbanned men as an excuse to avoid us like the plague. They say they don’t want to attract unneccessary attention and inconvenience and do not want to see their men and future children placed in possibly dangerous situations. Is this a cop out? [link]
Oh, 9/11. You changed everything. Now you consistently inspire nightmares like last week’s violence against an innocent Sikh cabdriver in Seattle, who was just trying to help an inebriated person get home, per the police’s request:
Trying to escape the attack, the 48-year-old victim stopped in a car pool lane Saturday night on Interstate 5, near Columbian Way, and scrambled out, state troopers said. His attacker had punched, choked and bitten him, calling him an “Iraqi terrorist,” according to police reports…
The suspect knocked off the victim’s turban and tore out clumps of his hair, according to reports. The beating continued as the victim fell onto the road. The victim briefly was hospitalized at Harborview Medical Center for injuries that included a concussion and bite marks on his head, according to police and acquaintances.
State troopers were called about 8 p.m. A Metro bus stopped next to the cab to block traffic after seeing the suspect attacking the victim in the road. Witnesses aboard the bus made dozens of calls to 911, Merrill said. [MSNBC]
The only comfort I take from that story is that the bus stopped while its riders frantically called 911…to report a crime which was inspired by those very numbers.
I must say, I can’t see any of my Sikh female friends “copping” to the reason which Munda Still Looking for Kudi cites; while plenty of them will bashfully admit that they want a clean-shaven mate, it’s not because of “inconvenience” or fears over discrimination. My friends are fierce, and take exhortations to be brave seriously; don’t go looking for a fight or commit some injustice in front of them, they’ll get righteously medieval on your kundis. (See: SM kudi Camille). But these women are also human. The heart wants what it wants and that’s demoralizing for people like my friend, with the stellar professional and emotional resume.
I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who have gone to India for a bride and I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who can’t conceive of such an undertaking. In three years of mutinying, I’ve heard from hundreds of you about how some of you don’t think your vesternized-selves could marry someone from the other side of the world— and yes, before a few of you angrily flame, we’ve also heard from those who are more than happy to find love thither. Why should wearing a turban or not shaving alter such feelings of apprehension regarding one of the most important decisions you’ll ever make?
What I want to know is, what do you think of these two comments and by extension, this issue? Do those of you who wear a turban plan on raising your sons to wear them? Are we heading to a future where little boys don’t run around in patkas, whether for their own safety or their future success with the kudis? I’m sure this already has been discussed on Sikh-centric sites, but I can sense that some of you want to raise your concerns here. Well, I heard you— and now I’d love to read what you have to say.
anna on December 3, 2007 02:12 PM in Identity, Religion · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Well, there's the general framing comment, that this isn't necessarily about beards & turbans, but rather perhaps a particularized instantiation of some broader principle, be it the general difficulty of men (and, perhaps, women) who are "visibly religious" dating in a secularized society, or of the greater ease of female minorities assimilating as compared to male. I'm not claiming it is either of those, but it's cert. possible.
Interesting...I wonder if Muslim girls who cover get similar rxns from Muslim boys?
This is the strangest thing ever! I was raised in the US and my dad keeps a turban. All of us women, though, cut our hair (my mom, sister, me). While I didn't marry a Sikh man (I never really met any, for some reason, and my parents weren't interested in matchmaking), I wouldn't have ruled it out. And I certainly wouldn't have ruled out a pukka sadarji. In fact, I have more respect for them because it's really difficult to stand out. Clean living/teetotaling would bother me, since I like a drink every now and then, but a turban and beard? Nah!
It would be interesting to know if young Sikh men in India faced similar discrimination from within after the 1984 anti-Sikh riots and its aftermath or if this phenomenon is endemic to Western nations only.
I tend to agree with rob. I'd be interested to know if Broken Hearted Munda (or your friend) would be willing to date a girl who'd dated in the typical American/Canadian style before (i.e. a few mid to long term relationships that had sexual activity); maybe he's being too picky.
Also, and this has bothered me since grade school, why Anna are you not dating your super-awesome, handsome close friend? Do you pull that "I don't want to ruin our friendship" crap on him? Sorry, but I've been there before. Maybe you did date and it just didn't work out; maybe when one of you is single the other is always in a relationship. Been there too.
I can tell you that in my friend's case (I don't know BHM), a girl's so-called past is not an issue, so yes he would be willing to date if not marry that girl. I don't think it's picky for him to want a girl who is Sikh, who likes his turban and beard. :)
I wouldn't have blogged about this if I just thought it was an issue of Sikh mundas being picky!
I would need to see a baseline comparison with clean shaven Sikh men to know to what extent it's the beard/turban. Does anyone know if any of the pan-Indian or Sikh specific online dating/matrimony sites have "clean shaven/non-Turbaned" as a "check box" search option ? If so someone enterprising can look at a 100 " Sikh women looking for Men" profiles, see what the stats are and get back to us
My gut feel is that your friend will have better luck if he starts to consider highly educated non-desi women.
It's been eons (2002!), but when I was on browndating dot com, there was a check box for "turbaned". Long before that, when I used to read the India Vest matrimonials for gits and shiggles, I noticed that the ads (for both genders) were super specific about whether the desired match should be clean-shaven, etc.
Its all about being in the right situation.
I know turbaned Sikh guys, who are extremely educated, funny, volunteer alot, and yet cant find a woman who will share his faith. I also know turbaned Sikh guys, who marry those fancy lawyers from Harvard and even marry women, who are not punjabi or Sikh or even Indian.
Finding someone, who is on the same spiritual level as yourself is very difficult if you are a Sikh man because their are not alot of Sikhs in the 1st place and of that population how many are religous?
If you a man with no faith and low morals,like myself then it is easier to find a woman. That woman is usually a huge bitch, however.
Interesting...I wonder if Muslim girls who cover get similar rxns from Muslim boys?
Yes. But its not exactly similar because the Muslim woman would take off her hijab inside the house. So its much worse for Sikh men than Muslim women when it comes to marriage and dating. I know some men who are unhappy with their wives because they wear hijab and especially when they face discrimination/harassment. Most Arab/Persian woman dont exactly look stereotypically 'Muslim' when they take their hijab off so the hijab attracts a lot of unwanted attention.
what is
I meant, what is "(3" (the less than 3 sign in the title)?
Do the Sikh men take off their turbans when they are at home?
Yes, usually. Which sucks because I always have to answer the door to get our pizza delivery.
Why?? They'll just think your cute other half is Kim Thayil. :D
--- Do the Sikh men take off their turbans when they are at home?
Yeah... but the beard kind of sticks...
Kurma, the "less than 3" is a way to draw a sideways heart: the title is Turban + Beard = No Love. :)
I think that would be hard, because sometimes the beard would hide a great chin and jaw, and the pugh would be hiding a great head of hair, but also at other times possibly not. Sonia, I truly don't know, so please to forgive if this is dumb or offensive, but how come he can't get the pizza with hair and beard?
Well, the turban is a religious head covering - you don't go out in public without your head covered. The only time my husband isn't wearing a turban or a bandana is when he's at home. So in order to get the door he would have to cover his head. He would basically feel naked in front of a stranger with his hair uncovered, as would most Sikh men. And he's lazy, and I have no excuse, so I get the pizza =)
Why?? They'll just think your cute other half is Kim Thayil. :D
Alot of my friends used to ask me if Kim Thayil was a sikh. But it turns out he is south indian from Kerala.
Still to this day Mr.Thayil is the greatest desi rock star ever to come out of America.
broken hearted jat macaca looking for shaven kudis too!
if thayil cut his hair he'd become engelbert humperdinck
whats a kudi? is that like kundi, like looking for *ss?
kudi = penne, not kundi :)
it's the punjabi word for girl, just like "munda" is boy. if i'm wrong, don't worry, i'll be corrected within minutes. ;)
So do Mallus and people who speak Marathi, if I'm not mistaken. Vastly different meanings, though. ;)
ahem...{puli clear throat} "ME-ME-ME-ME-ME!" (puli pulls out pitchfork). puli tightens diaphram and prepares to project his best operatic voice...
"Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi!"
sorry. i just had to get that out of my system.
Fantastic timing-- I'm listening to Rene Fleming, right now!
Kundi in Hindi has a different meaning too.
My friend is a TWS living in the US, and he had a tough time finding a Sikh kudi who would be OK with his traditional looks. Good for him, he finally found one (after a looong time) and good for her too, because he's an awesome person.
if thayil cut his hair he'd become engelbert humperdinck
Mr.Thayil hairline was start to thin alittle on top from the pictures of I saw of him
Anna you are right about the meaning of kudi and munda. The funny thing is that your punjabi is better then mine.
Very interesting topic. Please note that I do not mean to hurt anyone's feelings.
I am all for standing out in the crowd but not on the basis of religion. What has hair anything to do with religion? I am Hindu, so if I don't put bindi on my forehead, do I become muslim? The original reason for Sikhs keeping turban is totally outdated in today's world. Won't you agree? Are you telling me that if a Sikh man shaves off his hair then he will no more be a Sikh??? I don't think Sikh religion is so shallow. I have lot of Punjabi friends and have been to Langar couple of times. I have lot of respect for Sikh religion. Sikh religion is not just turban and beard.
gynophobic sikh men get kudi shots
looks more like pacman's mouth eating a pair of breasts...which would not make an incomprehensible title
as an aside... the word 'munda' cracks me up, b/c in telugu it's a way to insult a girl, along the lines 'skank/ho.'
looks more like it's coming down on top of a kundi, actually.
Chetna, it's nice of you to state up front that it wasn't your intent to be hurtful...but if I couldn't see your commenting history (i.e. if I were someone who reads/lurks instead of an admin), I'd assume you were a troll. So much wrong with your comment, so little time.
3>
I am all ears. Please tell me what you find wrong with my comment.
I am hurt that you called me a troll. What was so wrong with my comment!!
As far as I know, the Marathi meaning for "kundi" is "flower-pot", unlike the meaning in Mallu/Tam/Kannada etc. This has led to regrettable incidents when one of my Maharashtrian friends has somehow found out what it means in Tam etc, and goes out of his way to make statements like "To ensure that the plant grows well, we must sprinkle water on its kundi and place it in the sun" and so on, in discussions that are otherwise tolerably sane.
Oh, and I remember the comment from the old discussion, and from personal experience, beardedness does seem to be a hindrance. People in general seem to be OK with "pingpong", but nobody seems to like "hairy pingpong". (Can't speak for turbanitude or longhairity).
Does anyone perceive a difference in datableness between being an observant Sikh, having long hair, having a turban, and being bearded? I can imagine some (or maybe even all) of those terms being independent of each other, and I'd like to know how much of BHMLfK's comment was due to each factor.
Please re-read my comment; I did not call you a troll. I said that if I wasn't privy to other information which proved that you have a history of leaving sincere comments, I would assume that you were a troll:
Calling a turban outdated and then asking if we agree is disrespectful, IMO. Though I'm sure it was not your intention, stating that you have "a lot of Punjabi friends": is reminiscent of racists who claim not to be, because they have "black friends". I'm not accusing you of being a troll-- for the last time, I'm telling you that if people react to you as if you were, there is a reason for that. In fact, I proactively intervened on your behalf so you wouldn't be blind-sided, since I could see what others couldn't. I can't be more clear than this.
I think I know what you mean. There's a Tamirzhl word "mundai" which is used in roughly the same meaning. "Kudi" in Tam can mean either to drink or to live, which consequently makes the word "kudimagan" mean either "inhabitant" or "drunkard". "Kudi" can also be mispronounced slightly to give a profane term for female genitalia. This is a source of sub-sophomoric humor when watching Punjabi music videos, and the male voice's lyrics say something like "I'm so hot that all the kudis come to me", at which point the female background dancers happen to do a pelvic thrust each.
Sorry. Read quickly and reacted very quickly.
I now understand what you are trying to say. Thanks. I didn't think my comment would come out in that way.
Happens to all of us. :) Imperfect medium and all.
The turban=teetotaler equation is totally unfair, if desi-club parties on campus, or theka's and sharaab-khanas in panjab are any judge. In fact, it seems to me that the longer the beard, the better they hold their liquor!
I think I've only met one Sikh man with a longer beard than my husband's (which is gorgeous, by the way), and my husband has never touched alcohol. Disproved.
3>
Hmm, looks like we simply have different perspectives on this, Manju.
Oh, I wish I could read this site everyday, theres always such interesting things on it!
Although I see how it could be perceived as such I don't think the 9/11 angle is a complete cop-out. My uncle was adamant about not cutting the hair of my little boy cousins but they were in India when 9/11 happened and when they came back their hair was cut because everyone was so afraid for their safety. And especially within certain parts of the Sikh community I do think there is a still a lot of deeply embedded fear.
And when it comes to "Kudis" a lot of times their preferences are centered around their concerns for status. We grow up as men with turbans and beards being unclejis and people who definitely don't fit into our boy band influenced ideals of beauty and appeal. As I've grown older I've met really great guys who have everything going for them but I can't imagine myself with them because of their turban and beard, I've been so completely conditioned that I can't see them in a sexual light. And although they might not see the harm in what they're doing, our Sikh friends would be quick to pass judgment or even pity you for 'settling', and you have to admit that our friends influence us more than we can imagine.
I will point out though that just from my experience, men who are in their twenties and have chosen to continue with the Sikh tradition of not cutting your hair are usually more quick to adhere to other traditions as well. So that many of them will not pursue romantic relationships unless they are older and it has a clear direction towards marriage. And dragging out the experience factor again, when someone is reaching 30 and just begins to look for a romantic mate, the chances aren't always so promising and for some of them they might have to turn to more traditional means.
The decline of the turban, and the seriousness of the situation, was actually featured in an Outlook Magazine article this past summer.
I have a friend in Patiala who is the only one in his circle to keep a full beard. One day all of his friends started making fun of him for having cut his beard, and lost his sikhi (which, by that standard, they had all lost long ago). I couldn't figure out why they were saying this, until someone explained that he had trimmed a few of the hairs in his mustache that were obstructing his ability to eat food. :)
I did have female friends at the Panjab U. that told me that they found a beard and turban "sexy." Most of the women there were from the pind, though.
Interesting thread Anna....
And surprisingly,the degree of tolerance and understanding commentators and moderators here seem to exhibit far exceeds that seen(or not seen)when similar issues have been broached in some other desi(as in pucca desi....as in un-hyphenated desis)blogs.
Hopefuly I can come up with some coherent and meaningful contribution to the discussion (as someone who has spent considerable time in both the avataars you really should forgive me for thinking that I could!)......
Ciao
There has been a discussion here. Maybe the blogger is BHM ?
The colloquial usage of that word sometimes comes across as funny, but the origin of that word is pretty sinister. Munda in Telugu originally means a widow, as in 'mogudu leni munda/husband-less munda'. Going even farther back, munda originated (I was told) from the practice of 'siro mundanam' - the practice of making widows shave their heads. So, when I hear that word used in the hip/fun, Punjabi context, I always have to do a double take.
Similar usage in Telugu - poola kundi means flower pot.
since we are all talking abt beards and sikhs etc., a curiosity question - does the second amendment allow the sikhs to carry the Kirpans ?
Priya,
This is generally seen as a first amendment issue.
Hahaha, I am laughing at the thought of being medieval. Thanks, ANNA :)
I really think this comment gets at the heart of the matter. Maybe I have a totally weird subset of Sikh female friends, but there were not very many who were "orthodox" (neither could the same be said of the guys), and then to top it off the orthodox subset is so small that what are your chances, really, of finding someone who's on the level personality-wise, etc., etc.? I think this is actually one of the more difficult "compromises" for many Sikh men and women who maintain an "orthodox" interpretation of their faith, and perhaps this is a factor in why outmarriage and singledom is so high.kudi = girl. Sometimes it's spelled "kuri" because the "d" is actually a reflexive "r" (is that an appropriate descrip? it's an "r", but not a normal one. Hard to explain. Tongue curls back. Hmmmm.).
Chetna, we have actually had that convo. at length on other threads. I think if you google search SM some of the dialogue will come up.
sikh men who wear turbans and beards proudly know in the deepest hearts that they are desirable. if we are talking about cultural wearers of the turban and beard (versus those who wear them because of their committment to Sikh principles), then i find the confusion over how one is perceived and what type of reception they wish for, and by whom, understandable. this is the old "culture versus faith" concept.
honestly, the last time i heard such a comment from sikh guy about not being found attractive to the opposite sex because they are a practicing sikh... we were teenagers... perhaps i run in a different circle than BHM, but most *practicing* sikh men and women (the ones i know at least) don't carry these as the central worries over their marriage destinies, especially the abd variety from practicing sikh families, who i find grow up with a more nuanced understanding of why they carry on the traditions that they do (by virtue of a very fierce anti-assimilationist tendency which brews in families where kids are beat up everyday in the playgrounds for wearing a patka).
anyways, i initially didn't feel like responding to this post, because i thought perhaps i'd let the regular sikh commentors on here duke it out on the merits of hot-or-not, BUT the thought passed my mind that a sikh teenager might read this post and might come to the conclusion that yes, he is hopeless, no one will love him. to you: there are a lot of sikh girls and sikh women out there, of every variety and stripe, who find the committment and dedication displayed by those who wear a turban and beard irresistable, and though the mainstream media likes to play the hopeless card in regards to the future of the turban, those who *chose* to uphold sikh traditions(and everything that encompasses: outer/inner spirituality, seva, simran, kirt karni, naam japna, vand ke chakna, miri piri, etc. etc.) will continue to do so, and yes, they will find their better halfs, just trust in the good of the universe! (chardi kala, chaps!)
wearing a turban and beard is not a boo-hoo affair! difficult yes, but not boo-hoo!
ok then, now that i have gotten that in there, carry on with the hot-or-not! i vote HOT!
You rock =)
I second the hot!
There are many Sikhs. More than 22 million actually.
I'm glad ANNA posted about this because it's been a topic I've discussed with Sikh men for a long time. There are many Sikh women who want clean-shaven Sikh men. There are also many Sikh women who want turbanned men. Everyone has different tastes. However, as many Sikh women support their turbanned brothers, there are far less turbanned men who want Sikh women who are "more religious". (I use the term kind of loosely, because it's relative - but I mean in general Amritdhari Sikh women or Sikh women who don't shave etc.) I've seen a lot of Sikh men complain that they aren't wanted by Sikh women because of their beards, but I see it as have less to do with their turbans and more to do with their own approach to women. The men that I've personally come across who complain that girls don't like them usually also don't know how to talk to women. I know of plenty of turbanned and fully bearded Sikh men who get punani of all backgrounds, including Sikh - it's because those men have confidence in who they are, and women find confidence sexy.
It might not be your turban. It might be *you*.
And Sikh men have it extremely difficult in many cases, but they generally have it easier in one main way Sikh women don't. In the community itself. Many Sikh women do not wear a dastaar (turban) or have many symbols of their faith that are as easily identifiable, so they don't encounter the same problems overall that their brothers do outside the home. But when a Sikh man decides to keep his hair, or to take amrit, he is usually applauded by the community and given support. Sikh women are often pulled back from wearing a dastaar or taking amrit, unless their family is one where one or both of the parents have done so. Why are they pulled back? Because it'll be harder to find someone to marry them. There are many exceptions, but this is the tendency for the community and it's sad. We do support our brothers, but rarely find the same support back. I've had more than a couple of girlfriends who wear dastaars be told by families of amritdhari men (that are marriage potentials) that they should consider not wearing the dastaar anymore.
I have some more to say, but I have to freaking get back to studying for finals.
Sorry, I also had to touch on ANNA's friend she mentioned. Atypical people aren't going to end up with typical people. So when you're Ben and Jerry's Vermonty Python or Chunky Monkey, vanilla might not do it for you and you might not do it for vanilla. Tell your friend to keep heart, Anna!
Since I'm apparently taking a fake-break from studying, I just felt like mentioning that on Sikh men I find full beards hot.
And this might be TMI, but I've totally found raagis hot before. Esp. those tabla players. Ooh I don't know what it is about drummers.... I don't have a raagi fetish, but I don't exclude them from my perverse thinking just because they sing kirtan either.
....
I'm never getting married, am I.
I have to say that I find many guys who wear a turban/sardar and beard look incredibly hot (who was that guy on the British Master Chef Goes Large? What a hunk!). The only problem is I'm not desi and I'm also a male...! I've run into many desis at gay clubs but only one who had a turban and beard, and that was over ten years ago.
I'm part of a European cultural minority in my country and I find members of my own group to be very un-sexy, in fact I find my parents and their friends accents a total turn-off. Perhaps this is what is happening in North America too with ABDs, young women associating turbans/beards with older relatives so that dating someone with them seems too 'close'.
I've actually heard this a few times from Sikh gfs...that turbans remind them of their father/grandfathers. Then again, I know plain ol' "non-Sikh" brown girls who won't date brown guys for the same reason. Familiarity breeds contempt?
Re 2:
Anna, I suspect that often depends on the degree of coverage. With the headscarf style hijab, one can at least tell what a girl looks like; with the burqa there's very little chance of that, and it might well prove a dealbreaker say, in the initial stages of romance. For what it's worth, all the burqa-wearing women of my age group that I have known had arranged marriages. But my sample size is fairly small (n=6) and I don't know if they dated before marriage.
Mind you, this was in Bangladesh, where there were more than enough Muslim women in saris (or jeans, if that's what turns your head) to break any boy's (Muslim or not) heart. The situation might be quite different in say, certain parts of Afghanistan, where all the women wear burqas.
* Sorry, should have clarified-- in many, but not all of those cases (both Sikh/non), the girls in question had terrible relationships with their fathers and that made them shun all potentials who were "similar".
** Yes my brothers, I have argued passionately that they are being unfair to the likes of you, but like I wrote in the post, we're all human and flawed, innit?
Lol....no.Congrats.
since we are all talking abt beards and sikhs etc., a curiosity question - does the second amendment allow the sikhs to carry the Kirpans ?
It has never been interpreted that way.
@ 49 are you talking about Panjab Univ in Chandigarh??? Girls there do not come mostly from the pind, C'garh is very urban and most of the students are from the city itself.
This was a very interesting topic. I am not sikh, not from the region but grew up there and met very smart, sexy sikh guys, turban/not was never a big deal
I think it's the opposite, 'lack of familiarity leads to overgeneralizations,' i.e. when girls grow up in areas or communities where there aren't many other desis around, and the only ones they know are their families or a few family friends (regardless of how tyrannical or uncool they really were, though I've seen that happen even among girls who grew up in heavily desi environments), they associate desi guys with all of that and never think of as possible romantic partners. I have a few friends who thought like this, then came to college where there were more desi guys or moved to areas where there more desis, and then just started seeing the variety of brown men and came to be able to think of them as attractive. It's probably some of the same thing with associating turbaned and bearded men with fathers and grandfathers among ABDs, but apparently not so much back in India as one commenter noted above.
I guess then those "hairy days" are now numbered. With more and more men on a hair shedding spree the world could go bald in a matter of few years.
The question is what are our leaders doing about it. I mean we can't just sit on your backs and let the hairy-broad-chested men defoliate themselves with impunity.
It is time for all the hair-loving men of the world to take out a morcha. Lets meet at India Gate and from there we can take a walk up to Cannaught Place market and sip some soda.
And munda = bowtie?
If they'd have seen the hot sardars I have, they wouldn't feel like that. Maybe they need to move to the east coast. Woot!
This post reminds me of the part in "Bend it Like Beckham" where one of the aunties asks Jess something like "Do you want a clean-shaven boy like your sister or a true Sikh with a beard and turban?" Just throwing that out there...
Anyway, I hope your friend does find someone who will love him beard, turban, and all!
That is EXACTLY how I like my biryani. ;)
"The situation might be quite different in say, certain parts of Afghanistan, where all the women wear burqas."
I think this is too sweeping of a statement. I was in Mazar-e Sharif this August, and I saw quite a few females walking around not only burqa-less, but in attire that definitely made me want to turn my head.
Wait..sorry! In my haste to post, I overlooked that teensy bit: "in certain parts." Dang it!
That Mallu lass needs to stop eating hairy meat. Or at least shave it first.
I think Fuerza Dulce pretty much said it all at #58. And watevz at #56. Confidence is attractive. Whining is not. Period. End of story.
When a girl asks you what you got that on your head for you wink and smile and tell her it's to tie her up with.
Ghuriya @ 48--I'm sorry your uncle and his family felt threatened enough to compromise their ideals. I know my experience is pretty unique, but hearing about kids getting picked on for their judas always strikes me as ironic because I was a relatively popular turbaned kid (I feel so ridiculous writing that!) at public schools in suburban Texas and the gurudwara was the only place I ever got picked on and beat up. Then I read Nietzsche and dropped acid and, like my friend Mintoo, I gained the ability to see what others couldn't, for I now held the wisdom of both sides. In conclusion, I have to say cutting my hair did not have any measurable impact on my love life.
Back to Fuerza Dulce at 58, though, you really covered it all. My friend wore a turban for a while and got so much shit for it. So much bs, really, for being too idealistic and fanatical and who would ever want a girl like that? Then she cut her hair, and now she gets shit for selling out. For a while there she was having a REALLY hard time finding a match on account of she was looking for a meat-eating amritdhari, but I digress...
We need some data, some point to depart from that is more than the sum of our experiences and preferences.
Girls remark that there aren't many sardars left to choose from, sardars say too many surdies are chasing too few girls, sardars are hot, beards are icky, ZZ Top are hawt, Vikram Chatwal is not religious!, Why are women so shallow!... a gup shup becomes a rolla rappa and....we're back to the cacophonic GLOBALIZATION AND THE DEMISE OF THE SIKH TURBAN!
Confidence is groovy but we need some more confidence intervals.
FD, there are many Sikhs, but there are NOT many Sikhs who are both Umreekan and orthodox.
Amen, sista! I don't want to make sweeping generalizations, but I've heard definitely experienced similar trends in my own life, particularly when it comes to Sikh women in leadership. There is much more support for men, in general, than there is for women in the faith.I do echo the sentiments of #56, though. Wearing a turban/beard does not make someone hopelessly unattractive, and for many Sikh ladkiaa it makes you hawt. :)
Harbeer, I have a feeling your childhood was unique :) [although I've also seen patka'd little boys get just as much sh*t at the gurdwara as they do on the schoolyard. Kind of sick (no pun intended), if you think about it]
NVM, thanks, I am giggling at the rolla rappa.
A very appropriate (and catchy) song for this discussion.
Ignore the stupid intro with the "researcher from Columbia University".
I think one way that a turbaned sikh brother is gonna get out of this problem is if one of them sacrifices his life for others by being a celebrity. Back in desh, there are turbaned sikh celebrities like Rabbi Shergil, Daler Mehendi (Ok musicians not models or actors, but still)etc. So if one sees some positive association between Turban and something cool...that should do the trick. There, problem solved ;)
does the facial hair make one better or worse at muff diving? i think this should be taken into account when deciding whether one wants a "clean shaven" sikh boy or a full on bearded one.
also, i think not drinking is perceived as being "wierd" in the US dating scene. not sure about india.
What is dastaar?
Anna, I am very impressed that you know the term "patka". I have lived in India for so long and known so many Sikhs, yet I didn't know the headcover that young Sikhs wear is called a patka :(
Keeping your hair and wearing a turban is not orthodox. The vast majority of Sikhs do keep their hair and wear a turban - it is actually a minority that shave (although the minority is growing as more and more people are pressured into shaving).
For those who don't know -> The reason Sikhs wear the turban/beard is because for hundreds of years they were persecuted by the ruling parties of India. Both of the major religions there were not comfortable with the idea of a new religon, so they basically said convert or be killed. Keeping your hair has to do with sainthood and not cutting what god gave you, wearing a turban is supposed to be symbolic of a crown (I'am oversimplying this of course). In India at the time wearing a turban was reserved for high castes and kings. By telling everyone to wear them - it allowed everyone (of all castes) to be kings in their own right (challening the caste system). This is the same reason Sikhs sit down in the Gurudwara (so nobody is above anyone else). Lastly, wearing a turban allows Sikhs to stand out in a crowd - they will never be confused with anyone else. It allows the religon to keep its identity (when other religous leaders tried to dilute it or get rid of it). The physical representation, while it comes with a lot of baggage especially in the west, has deep signifigance. In the current world enviornment, as it becomes harder and harder for Sikhs, the Turban is one thing that keeps the religon strong.
I doubt if presence/absence of facial hair has any bearing on muff-diving skills. However, it may have an effect on the muff-owner's pleasure. What's the sound of two beards meeting? :D
Unless one moves in the (minority) circle known as "straight-edge" where no drinking is actually an asset. Muff-diving/sex is hard to come by too.
Kim Kardashian doesn't drink. ;)
Puli, I think the "no drinking" becomes less weird when you get out of college. Just my experience :)
You mean her decathlete step-dad Bruce, right? Her father passed away four years ago.
That show is my dirty little secret. I love it. ;) Can't wait for season two.
Will that be a sequel to J and Kim? ;)
I also agree with Fuerza Dulce at #58 and watevz at #56. For teetotallers that maintain the identity, in my experience I also think the issue has something do to with the fact that "more" is expected of us, in the sense that we (rightly in my opinion) are held to a higher moral(not sure if this is the right word) standard. When I'm out I'm conscious of the fact that I'm representing other keshdhari (maintaining hair) individuals and as a result am reluctant to go and chirpse kudis, for fear of coming off as another one of those sleazy indian guys that usually frequent brown club nights.
Personally, I'm in my mid-twenties and approaching the "age" as my mum would put it. While the ideal scenario would be for me to meet a keshdhari punjabi girl, who is at least as interested in Sikhi as I, the reality of life makes the chances of this happening pretty unlikely. In my opinion its hard enough to find someone who is compatible, let alone someone who fulfills the above criteria so its probably best to cast my net wide.
And yes I hate how the above makes the whole "love" thing sound like a box-ticking exercise.
I have NO idea what you are referring to, Amit!
No, seriously, I haven't seen it. :D
I just think the whole family is uber-wacky. As reality trash goes, it is fairly addictive.
I think people aren't giving the argument enough due. Some observations as a turbaned wearing man who dismissed this point when I first heard it and then later realized it was true:
* Even though there are probably more Keshdari women than men, and even though men get arranged marriages from India more often than women, Keshdari men still have a fairly hard time in part b/c of the factors mentioned earlier (small numbers, etc) but also b/c lots of women don't want kesdhari men.
* Lots of Keshdari women don't want a turbanned man. You'll rarely find a man saying that.
* The point about Amrit is a red herring b/c Amritdharis tend to marry each other, so parents are worried about a daughter selecting into an even smaller marriage pool. The correct comparison is keshdari men and women if you're talking about men with turbans.
* I have a friend who arranges social mixers for keshdari Sikhs. This friend had to cancel one, once, because there weren't enough women who wanted the keshdari men who signed up.
Sure, confidence helps and I'm not saying boo hoo me. However, it was a surprise when I got out of college and found that a not insignificant number of keshdari women wanted a guy who trimmed or shaved.
My guess as to why? They grew up passing in mainstream society and didn't want to stand out as "weird" or "different" because of their boyfriend or husband. The opposite dynamic isn't in place for men.
Some mill for your grist.
I intend absolutely no disrespect with the following comment but something when louiecypher said:
It struck a nerve.Not because I'm a desi woman who takes offense to someone saying that better luck would be found outside my ehtnic classification, but because I've been told the exact same thing by countless people myself (except with guys).
I know for a fact that there are absolutely wonderful, smart, sexy, and hot Indian-American men out there, but in my 32 years I've gone through more heartbreak by exclusively dating from that group that I'd care to admit. I hate, absolutely hate to generalize a population subset, and I'm honestly not trying to do so now--but I've gotten to a point where I've strongly considered loosening my standards and dating outside my race because what I've been doing so far ain't working.
Because from what I've learned, non-Indian guys won't reject me because I'm not vegetarian (three times I've been turned away for this), or because my extended family has married outside of the Indian diaspora "one too many times", or simply because they misunderstood and thought 'epidemiologist' meant I was a medical doctor.
Again, I can see so many of you wanting to turn this around on me for possibly being too picky...and I've faced that as well. To combat this I've dated guys from all walks of life, nerdy, outgoing, down to earth, you name it, and for whatever reason, I never seem "good enough".
It's pretty demoralizing and after a while you can't help but take it personally.
(oh by the way, I'm not Sikh, but Gujarati.)
Let me, for the sake of historical context, recount an incident from a hundred years back. Srinivasa Ramanujan (1887-1920), the distinguished mathematician, shaved off the tuft which he like other strictly orthodox people of the period he had before he left for Cambridge University in 1914. He chose to do so but still cried because the circumstances of the time virtually forced him to this decision. His biographer, the distinguished librarian S. Ranganathan, went to England for further study but kept his tuft (under a turban). He evoked two different reactions: workmen tended to comment on his tuft and turban in snickering ways, but when he was at the house of a mathematics Professor who had known Ramanujan, his wife, a cultivated lady, asked if he still had his tuft; Ranganathan silently removed his turban to reveal it; the lady was very moved, and felt that Ramanujan too should have been able to retain his tuft. Ramanujan adhered to his orthodox ways in all essential respects, although in those years even going abroad (crossing the black waters) was looked own upon by many. Ashish Nandy has argued in his book on Creativity among Indian Scientists that Ramanujan was endlessly innovative in his work all through his life precisely because he remained true to his background in his personal ways.
We live in a different time and cannot directly extrapolate from the past to the present, but anyone, Sikh or not, living in a society whose dominant mores are different from his may wish to reflect on the complex question of shaping one's identity in a way that does not compromise one's essential self. A related question is the extent to which one can change one's habits and ways without harming one's fundamental being. There may be as many solutions as there are individuals.
nala wrote:
Bingo! I think this is exactly why so many ABCD girls I know have a hard time finding guys from India attractive. They just remind them so much of their uncles and other older men they grew up with whom they've never had a sexual inkling towards.hmm...for me the only reason its any less wierd is that i dont live in a dorm. other than that, sometimes its still wierd.
psingh #88 tries to concoct history by writing
>>The reason Sikhs wear the turban/beard is because for hundreds of years they were persecuted by the ruling parties of India. Both of the major religions there were not comfortable with the idea of a new religon, so they basically said convert or be killed.
That's true of one of the religions - no browny points for guessing which one! As to the other major religion - they gave their first son to Sikhism.
>> This is the same reason Sikhs sit down in the Gurudwara (so nobody is above anyone else).
So do the people of the other major religion in their temples...
>> Lastly, wearing a turban ...allows the religon to keep its identity (when other religous leaders tried to dilute it or get rid of it).
The only people who are trying to get rid of it are the young Sikhs of today, whose role models are clean shaven heroes like Sachin Tendulkar, Amitabh Bachchan, Hritik Roshan, ShahRukh Khan etc etc. Every culture identifies with the heroes of the present.
If you want to save your traditions, I suggest you look for role models/heroes within your fold.
M. Nam
Shalu's comment may be the answer to why Anna's friend and the other broken-hearted Mundas are still single. Even the best of guys do act differently when it comes to dating or marrying. It's funny, they never behave that way when they are with their female friends. But when it comes to marriage, their expectations from women, and their attitudes change completely. Very often, the guys themselves either do not realise the double standards, or believe that their wives should be different from their friends.
We only know the guys' side of the story. It's quite possible that these guys are not being rejected for their turbans at all (or at least, not all the time).
were all the desis you dated "from all walks of life' of more-or-less the same socioeconomic status?
Shalu--what you said in post 101 struck a nerve. I'm really sorry about the bad luck you've had in dating Indian men. I have this feeling that I'll end up in the same exact situation in a few years. I know for a fact that I'm not Indian enough for the traditional families, but I'm not "ABCD" enough for the Indians-turned-Americans (i.e. I don't drink or party etc). I'm somewhere in the middle, and it seems most people are at either one of the ends. But anyway, I guess what I mean to say is that I can relate. (btw, I'm Guju too!)
p.s. I'm not planning to become a doctor, engineer, lawyer, or business women either.
you can still be saved if you become a pharmacist.
I think only melbourne desi and one other person touched on this, but speaking as a white girl, I don't know ANY women, white or brown or black, who like facial hair on men. Grody to the max, yo. Obviously Sikhs have many more levels of meaning with this when looking for Sikh partners, but speaking purely on the surface, my impression (obviously based on my experiences with friends of similar socio/econ/edu class) is that us girlies don't like kissing hairy faces, period. Why isn't that enough of an excuse for the heart (or the lips) to want what it wants? :)
And Fuerza Dulce is right, it's all about the confidence, anyway. I have dated the occasional goateed man despite my aversion, simply because they were so damn charming. ;)
i feel the same way...
muralimannered said:
Pretty much middle/upper middle class---the predominant sector that Indians in America find themselves in. At least in the midwest.Hey, I do... maybe not a full beard, but certainly someone who looks like he hasn't shaved in a week or so.
& I'm guessing certain types of facial hair are seen as trendy (though among younger people), hence guys doing this sort of thing (sorry, ANNA).