So sad. What have we come to? OR what have 'they' come to!

Thanks for posting on this. I can't believe what LA would be like in a few years if they'd implemented their proposed Muslim mapping project and then released the same statement.

How on earth will this combat any terrorism with such a sweeping call for reporting 'suspicious activity' with no specific definition that is logical.
If i see an unattended bag, yeah sure i will report that but how can one know if someone taking photos is just tourist/photographer or a person making plans to blow something up??

This is a great initiative to instill more paranoia in people and also give idiots with any grievances a chance to rat on their targets

Here's an idea: let's get some LAPD officers to go to Chicago on a vacation with their Muslim mapping project, taking notes, taking pictures, talking with Muslims and using maps. Let the Chicago PD arrest the LAPD tourists, and while they are sorting out their internal namecalling, the rest of us can continue to live in peace.

I live and work very close to the trade center site in New York and you are correct that the policing is getting out of hand, it makes me uneasy to think that everytime I am talking in Hindi or Punjabi on the phone or taking pictures with my family some overzealous person may be calling 911.

I always found the "See something, say something" exhortations on the New York subway Stasi-esque. Seems like an exhortation to fuel paranoia, and it's a pity that the emasculation of due process is a complete non-issue in American politics.

But America is still better than France. Here, all foreigners (not short-term tourists) report to the prefecture. They have to check in every year and are evaluated on their "progress". The police routinely check your ID cards. And when I was at the Indian Bangladeshi restaurant a few weeks ago, someone from the authorities came around to "interview" the poor fellow. It was all very hushed and polite and civil just like in one of those Nazi-era movies. He's still open though so I guess they didn't drag him off to somewhere never to be heard off again. Still, it gave me the chills.

Everyone stares at you here. I look up from lunch, or my reading or whatever and notice that someone has just quickly averted their staring gaze. This happens to others too. My Japanese friend complains about it. And even a long settled English woman. Unlike America, here, every foreigner is suspect.

Here, all foreigners (not short-term tourists) report to the prefecture. They have to check in every year and are evaluated on their "progress".

Same for India too - one of the advantages of getting a PIO card is that you don't have to check in.

:(

Here's an idea: let's get some LAPD officers to go to Chicago on a vacation with their Muslim mapping project, taking notes, taking pictures, talking with Muslims and using maps. Let the Chicago PD arrest the LAPD tourists, and while they are sorting out their internal name calling, the rest of us can continue to live in peace.

pingpong, that's a great idea. I've e-mailed the CIA about it and they've volunteered to videotape the whole thing . . .

bloody hell!

"Here, all foreigners (not short-term tourists) report to the prefecture. They have to check in every year and are evaluated on their "progress"."

Wasn't there something in place in NY after 9/11 when some (possibly illegal) immigrants were told they can sign up at their local police staion(?) to avoid deportation or something like that, and now they all have to report in on a routine basis.
I can't remember the details but when i read it , it seemed to be mainly taxi drivers that were targeted....

Better to be safe than sorry. It's easy to criticize the police, but I don't think any of you cowards would want another 9/11. It's a post- 9/11 world; get used to it.

I was standing infront of a building, waiting for my friend to come pick me up in Newark, NJ. Then a security guard with two cops approached me to ask me for my 'business' there. It felt like i was in Schindler's list.

Ennis,

I thought foreigners that intend to stay for longer than 180 days are required to register with the FRO in India, I believe foreigners travelling on a 6 month tourist visa don't need to, good to know PIO card is useful for something :)

Better to be safe than sorry. It's easy to criticize the police, but I don't think any of you cowards would want another 9/11. It's a post- 9/11 world; get used to it.

But this makes us both less safe and more sorry. Police and security experts say this is a waste of resources and makes their jobs harder. But even if they didn't, common sense shows this is absurd.

And don't play the 9/11 card like that. I'm from NYC born and raised. My high school prom was held at the WTC. I know people who died there and others who got out alive. Saying 9/11 doesn't justify anything the government wants to do. If we surrender our civil liberties and our better judgment to anybody who says "terrorism! 9/11!" then the terrorists really have won.

Better to be safe than sorry. It's easy to criticize the police, but I don't think any of you cowards would want another 9/11. It's a post- 9/11 world; get used to it.

That is a lame excuse for poor intelligence gathering.

No-one is doubting or unaware of the environment we're in...Who you calling a coward??!! I lived in UK all my life until i moved here with IRA bomb threats every weekend in London train stations!
and i'm sure people in India, Spain and many other countries have awareness of the environment we're in but running around having police target anyone due to false 'tips' with such a broad program just wastes time as Ennis pointed out.

All for sitting around on a nice spring day and writing on a pad. And this was in a liberal town where they actually decided to follow procedures rather than detain first and ask questions later.

This depresses me. I'm sorry that happened to you. I've always wondered what kind of paranoid people report "suspicious activity" and on what grounds? It reminds me of a hilarious recent episode of 30 Rock where Tina Fey's character is reluctant to report a neighbor of hers because it makes her feel like she's being overly suspicious but gives into the "better safe than sorry" mentality. Sigh. If only everything turned out as funny as that show.

BTW, this made me giggle.

I no longer say hello to friends named Jack at the airport.

PS I work and live in NY too and had friends who worked near WTC during 9/11. so yeah don't go there!

I live and work very close to the trade center site in New York and you are correct that the policing is getting out of hand, it makes me uneasy to think that everytime I am talking in Hindi or Punjabi on the phone or taking pictures with my family some overzealous person may be calling 911.

that said, i was on the PATH the other day and an altercation broke out between two men that caused one of them to pull the security lever. i suppose this is to alert the police, and the train was at a station that was swarming with cops, and stayed at that station for a good several minutes after he pulled the lever. not only did no cops show up immediately, but they only stopped the train to check out the situation two stops later.

PATH

Ak,

True, what makes me uncomfortable is that I have lived in the area for two plus years and I still don’t feel the comfort of home, the constant feeling of scrutiny and being made to feel like an outsider gets tiring after a while.
Don’t get me wrong, I try to be as inconspicuous as I can, but the constant worrying about something takes away the fun of living in a city like New York.

i was on the PATH the other day

tell them to move to rural virginia. nothing bad ever happens there.

My high school prom was held at the WTC

really? thats intersting.. which floor?

If we surrender our civil liberties and our better judgment to anybody who says "terrorism! 9/11!"

where did you get a copy of the 2004 republican election strategy?

the Chicago Police that asks people to “immediately report any or all … suspect activity” including note taking, camera usage, video usage and map usage.

Well, Ennis, if you had read Schedule 58, article (p) of the American Citizenship and Naturalization act, you would have realized that an essential prerequisite for residence in this land of the free is demonstrable monthly purchase of Fair and Handsome, now with American double strength peptides (00:27).

Prafool is right. This is a post-9/11 world we live in. We wouldn't want another 9/11. But every year, despite our heightened security levels, it happens again, around the same time in September.
Since we're living in the post-9/11 part of 2007, I'm keeping especially vigilant.
This post-9/11 season, I urge you all to be wary of nomadic groups infiltrating our neighborhoods, extorting money and communicating their subversive message.

I've already noticed several posts on this very site defending the Muslim faith, so I'm going to go ahead and report your website to the LAPD, and myself for commenting on it.

9/11 9/11

I think you are misconstruing what I am saying. Try telling someone who's lost a loved on on 9/11 about you being inconvenienced by security every now and then. I don't think you'd get much sympathy. The point is that we all have to give up a little to be safe post 9/11, and it irks me to no end to hear about people whining about having to answer simple questions to security. There never has been absolute freedom here, and certainly not anywhere else, and what makes you think you should have it. If you want it go buy some island and go live on it (and pray Osama doesn't find you).

Prafool, despite our best efforts, we have not been able to remove the risk of 9/11. In fact, we had one just about 80 days ago. In times like this, we need to redouble our efforts so we are rid of the scourge of 9/11. Down with the Gregorian Calendar!

Prafool, how is this just an "inconvenience"?

Innocent people get arrested and swallowed up. Purna Raj Bajracharya was a tourist from Nepal who took a video of a street that had a building with an FBI office in it. He was arrested and vanished entirely, his case was wiped from the public record. He got out only because the same FBI agent who arrested him got concerned and even that FBI agent couldn’t get the system to release Bajracharya, he had to go to the Legal Aid Society.

I think you're oversimplifying the situation and purposely misconstruing what ennis is saying.

Notice from your friendly neighborhood police station: To commemorate the replacement of the Julian calendar with the Giulianian calendar, we will provide you with an additional free cavity search this holiday season. Merry Christmas!

ah! prafool brings back memories.....for example this classical one from Mr. Kobayashi

I also think Siddhartha's analysis here is dead-on. The argument could be made that the perceived problem with terrorism isn't the deadly violence per se (a tool that no government is even close to repudiating), nor is it the ideology behind it (which can vary a great deal and in some cases mirror state interest), but rather the challenge it represents to the idea of the nation state. Terrorism causes exaggerated fear partly because it is spectacular (in the neutral sense of that word) and partly because it represents politics by non-state actors.

Terrorism is to the state as witchcraft is to the medieval church. The slightest whiff of it, and the authorities go batshit.

and this one

the biggest raison de etre of the state is that it offers "protection", hence the inordinate and hysterical attention to 'security', quite out of proportion to its statistical importance.

Yes terrorism is a risk; and it is a risk we can do something about (unlike say being hit by a lightening, about which we can arguably do less, though the probability of being a victim of terrorism is about the same--i think less if i recall correctly-- as being hit by lightening); but all these ham fisted efforts are nothing more than window dressing,and as ennis points out, there is some consensus among security professionals that they are largely useless. if everyone thought like this, life would come to a standstill in mumbai or delhi or any other large indian city.

Some of our neighbors called the cops regarding 'suspicious activity' in our house, because of the times when we have a bunch of relatives visiting, or when my mother holds baba pujas at our house (I find this latter reason hilarious by the way, it's very ironic). This happened twice actually.

My high school prom was held at the WTC

really? thats intersting.. which floor?

I'm guessing Windows on the World? Top floor. Traditionally my high school had it there too, but of course by the time I graduated we couldn't.

oh the second block quote is not from mr. kobaysahi, but me responding to, and agreeing with, his comments

sorry, last one; there was a typo in #31, should have been classic one from Mr. Kobayashi

Try telling someone who's lost a loved on on 9/11 about you being inconvenienced by security every now and then. I don't think you'd get much sympathy.

I have told such people about such stories, and they have been shocked and sympathetic.

And how soon the story of Jose Padilla, who was once considered one of the most dangerous terrorists to be apprehended on US soil, was reduced to a complete mental shambles and a wreck of a person after subhuman treatment during years of detention without charging, and then finally convicted on some nebulous charges of conspiracy, all this significantly based on torture generated evidence from Abu Zubaydah.

THIS is what we have to sign up for to live in America?

In 36, I meant "And how soon we have forgotten..."

I live in Chicago and never felt like I was being watched by the police or anything. On the other hand I have never walked around with a notebook in one hand a map in the other and a camera around my neck. I do walk around with the biggest back back known to mankind and have never been asked to open it or anything.

I hate feeling compromised! "OOHH, I better not take a picture of my little niece by that building or some white lady might get scared and call the police."

Caring a map is suspicous no matter who has one. Its called a hand held GPS device, welcome to the 21st century.

Cant this be bad for tourism? More brown people are getting money and if they ever decide to avoid the New York\LA area and come to Chicago and get harrased then say bye to any of their friends ever coming here.

To be honest, I never felt like I was deterred from doing something in public because I am brown. Then again, I'm female, and I don't wear any obvious religious head coverings/symbols. I doubt this will deter brown tourism...

I think you are misconstruing what I am saying. Try telling someone who's lost a loved on on 9/11 about you being inconvenienced by security every now and then. I don't think you'd get much sympathy. The point is that we all have to give up a little to be safe post 9/11, and it irks me to no end to hear about people whining about having to answer simple questions to security. There never has been absolute freedom here, and certainly not anywhere else, and what makes you think you should have it. If you want it go buy some island and go live on it (and pray Osama doesn't find you).

Prafool: If they are going to profile, why must they be obtuse about it ? Ennis is a turbanned Sikh as I understand. They don't know jack about cultural geography let alone have the ability to glean useful info from the noise.

>>Security theater makes white people feel safer

There's no reason why every increase in vigilance has to be turned into a white vs brown thing.

Chill out. Take pictures. Carry subway maps. Nothing will happen to you.

M. Nam

If all fails, bring along a token white guy.

Prafool writes:
"The point is that we all have to give up a little to be safe post 9/11"

No, the point is that we are not all equally having to "give up a little."

Sucking up having to remove my shoes before going through security, pack all my carry-on toiletries into a quart size ziploc bag, and show my ID and tickets numerous times - okay, that's a resonable price for increased security and we all have to pay it.

I have not, and probably never will be approached by an officer for jotting notes in a public place, for recycling paper (remember that post?), or for having a gathering of my side of the family at my home. That is because I am not brown. That's not an inconvenience. It's called prejudice.

>>Security theater makes white people feel safer

There's no reason why every increase in vigilance has to be turned into a white vs brown thing.

Chill out. Take pictures. Carry subway maps. Nothing will happen to you.

M. Nam

Moornam, in logicland, we think of you as superman because of the unbelievably dangerous leaps you make. This Icelandic woman was detained at JFK because she overstayed her visa several years ago.
One case where a white person has been detained for longer than she should have (she did violate regulations) does not show that law enforcement agencies are equally targeting both white and brown people for surveillance. This Icelandic woman must have been identified after her passport must have run afoul of some criteria in a computerized database, while this thread focuses on people who are presumed suspicious on sight (i.e. without procedure or proof). In one case there is an actual procedure/protocol that is followed before an authority acts, while in the other case mere suspicion is the basis of detention. I don't doubt that some credible/reliable means of profiling terrorists or their co-conspirators are necessary to prevent them from causing damage, but the current system is flawed for the reasons Ennis enumerated in his post.

The point is that we all have to give up a little to be safe post 9/11, and it irks me to no end to hear about people whining about having to answer simple questions to security

Is everybody giving up an equal amount? I'd be happy if that were true. How about, every time a person, brown or white, is hassled by the securtiy services and it turns out to be unfounded, everybody else chops in to give him or her $100. That way, it won't just be the hairy, turbanned, and brown that give up a little because of nineleven, it will be everybody.

I think this is a great idea for Rudy Giuliani, the true nineleleven candidate that knows that "we all" need to give up a little to be safe.

Ikram, that is a brilliant idea! Should appeal to so- called "conservatives" too (not the statist types, but nonetheless...)

...meanwhile a guy in front of me at the store this morning was wearing a sweater that said "der bomber" . Is this some new hip brand?

MoorNam wrote:

Chill out. Take pictures. Carry subway maps. Nothing will happen to you.

I've been doing this for some years now. I've been to numerous cities in the US, national and state parks, and not a single incident where a cop detained or questioned me.

The only place where I feel being 'watched' are airports. I am always the "randomly" selected guy whose cabin baggage gets checked twice. I don't mind it, maybe because I'm used to it now.

I have an architect friend who did his undergrad in India and came to Perdue University as a grad student in 2003. Being interested in buildings/structures he tends to look at them a little bit more than your average Joe/Ramu. He did that at an airport in Illinois. The next thing he knew was 4 police cars chasing him down the highway. After some questioning they let him off but he seemed pretty shaken up by the dramatics.

I am always the "randomly" selected guy whose cabin baggage gets checked twice. I don't mind it, maybe because I'm used to it now.

Replace the underlined phrase with "car gets pulled up by traffic cops" , "grandparents were brought over in a ship from Africa", "a** got tasered in a college lib.", "gas sation got shot at by ignorant Arizon hicks"

Doesn't help getting used to it.

Chill out. Take pictures. Carry subway maps. Nothing will happen to you. M. Nam

Moor Nam - I get stopped for not doing anything. I had a highway patrolman follow me for miles once waiting for me to slip up on the rules of the road to pull me over so he could run my license. It's easy for you to say nothing will happen to you. I hope nothing happens to anybody. But I've had things happen to me already, and we have blogged about plenty of other cases where things have happened to other people because they were brown, so I know it is possible.

I think you are misconstruing what I am saying. Try telling someone who's lost a loved on on 9/11 about you being inconvenienced by security every now and then. I don't think you'd get much sympathy. The point is that we all have to give up a little to be safe post 9/11, and it irks me to no end to hear about people whining about having to answer simple questions to security. There never has been absolute freedom here, and certainly not anywhere else, and what makes you think you should have it. If you want it go buy some island and go live on it (and pray Osama doesn't find you).

How does it help security to tell the public that they should call 911 every time they see somebody use a map, camera, video camera or take notes?

The sister of one of my closest friends died in a terrorist attack (I knew her very well). I have a family member who survived one in India, a cousin who narrowly missed a bombing in London, and have several acquaintances who barely survived them in the USA including one who is now scarred and handicapped for life. I understand that there are threats out there, however a real threat shouldn't justify nonsensical actions on our part.

What I want is (a) an America that lives up to its values including due process and (b) an America that makes its citizens secure. These actions violate our values AND make us much less secure.

Doesn't help getting used to it.

That's the way it should be.

Some people might not side with me on this, but there are times when my 'practical' viewpoint overpowers my 'idealistic' one. If I'm in a hurry and a simple 'showing the ID card' can resolve a problem, then I'll not argue with the cop.

While flying, I have a lingering feeling at the back of my mind that I'm being singled out by a lot of people. But this never stops me from doing things that I would normally do.

The "if you see something, say something" policy feeds paranoia and harassment.

I don't mind the extra security that much, but I only fly once a year or so. It's the 'Link it to terrorism' mentality that I think is out there:

Global Warming/Energy Policy: Our Oil dependancy funds terrorism and causes global warming.
Immigration and illegal aliens: The southern border's wide open Terrorists could come through.
Need more federal funding for your law enforcement: Declare that public ice ring a potential terrorist target and get federal funds.

So when is the "third-largest South Asian-American community" (actually, everyone who's against this ridiculous policy) going to do something about this?

everyone protects their own turf. USA belongs to the goras, who built it up from the wide open land it was to the superpower that it is today. You guys, first/second/third generation browns etc, are all visitors who decided that they liked it and did not want to go to the trouble of working hard to make their own homelands something similar, so just decided to freeload on what this country has to offer. Except for an occasional desi serving in the military for the promise of a greencard/citizenship, I doubt if desi immigrants and their progeny thought of dying for their adopted land. So, no point crying when goras implement their policies to protect what they think is their own, when they think it has been harmed by someone brown.

Anna and friends do not take it to heart, but I have noticed that often when people disagree with you or say something that does not agree with your general outlook here, your moderators often castigate them, delete their posts, and ban their ips etc. Now, it is all okay as it's your blog and therefore your terriroty, and the few sentences which are subjective enough to be interpreted in any number of ways which make up the posting policy of this places comments apparently give you the moral authority to do that as well.

I ask you all, how is the increased gora surveillence of the browns any different from anna and her moderators prowling the comments, deleting, critiquing and banning? Might or might not be right, but putting up with it is the price the commentors have to pay for the privilege of posting here. Similarly, it could be that the average gora american sees such treatment as the price the browns have to pay for the privilege of using the facilities of this country.

aquafina,
True dat.

Similarly, it could be that the average gora american sees such treatment as the price the browns have to pay for the privilege of using the facilities of this country.

Because America has a notion of non-racial citizenship at this point, one which was hard won by Catholics, Jews, Blacks, Latinos and Asians, each of whom had been excluded from full membership in the polity before. For us to go backwards here is a repudiation of all that America stands for, which is full and equal citizenship leading to full and equal standing under the law.

In other words, the founding idea of America is a government of laws and not men. The Gora Americans who are supporting such policies are destroying that basic ideal. They are unamerican.

USA belongs to the goras, who built it up from the wide open land it was to the superpower that it is today. You guys, first/second/third generation browns etc, are all visitors who decided that they liked it and did not want to go to the trouble of working hard to make their own homelands something similar, so just decided to freeload on what this country has to offer.

I ask you all, how is the increased gora surveillence of the browns any different from anna and her moderators prowling the comments, deleting, critiquing and banning?

In most cases, brown ppl are 'screened' not because of what they say or do, but because of the way they look.

I ask you all, how is the increased gora surveillence of the browns any different from anna and her moderators prowling the comments, deleting, critiquing and banning?

We own the blog, it is not a democracy and there is no bill of rights. The goras do not own this country, and it is a democracy with a structure of civil liberties that all government employees have sworn an oath to protect.

USA belongs to the goras

Forgive my ignorance, but what are 'goras'? Native Americans?

Forgive my ignorance, but what are 'goras'? Native Americans?

Whitey. White Devils. Honkeys. Crackas. Caspers. Ofays. Gweilo. Gringos. Albino Apes. Pink Nips.

I can go on but I think you get the idea. Those are my favorites though.

I have a 9/11 file, which gets me cordoned off to the special screening section everytime I fly. How? My lovely little Coach tote bag used to serve as my laptop carrying case while working in NY. Unknown at the time, the condo where I was staying at, was right next door to a monstrosity being built, with over-sized cranes doing the bulk of the work throughout the day. As I made the hop, skip and beat to a cab just outside our door, little snowflakes and raindrops carried down the noxious fumes and traces of nitroglyceride, which tested positive when boarding a Southwest flight. Not only did I miss my flight home and required to surrender all of my belongings until they cleared my identity, but I have been stamped into the system as a potential terrorist to watch. I did inquire about the legality of the offence, to which airport officials said I'd be off the list in 5 years [insert bomb joke].

Did I mention I am 5"6 and 102 lbs?

aquafina, you desi, how dare you! Go use a bisleri handle instead!

aquafina brings up some good points:

1) This land belongs to goras, who first arrived a few hundred years ago. The rest of us are visitors.
2) Setting up ridiculous systems of paranoia and policing are exactly like moderating blog comments (remember that time SM Intern didn't like what I had to say and I was locked up in Cuba?)
3) we "first/second/third generation browns" have DONE NOTHING FOR THE US

I sure as hell feel privileged.

Back to freeloading off the gracious gora sahib who allows me to live in his native land.

Anna and friends do not take it to heart, but I have noticed that often when people disagree with you or say something that does not agree with your general outlook here...

how is the increased gora surveillence of the browns any different from anna and her moderators prowling the comments, deleting, critiquing and banning

The "general outlook" here is something we work hard for, which attracts amazing commenters and distinguishes us from 90% of what's out there. If you think I'm some biased, dictatorial thought nazi, why stay? We have a very clear, very reasonable and very necessary commenting policy. It's totally unfair of you to somehow transform those guidelines and our best attempts at enforcing them in to something petty and unjust.

And "prowling"? You think I get off on this? On moderating? Seriously? Honestly, if you knew how much work this site requires (maybe you should listen to Abhi and Amardeep's radio interview), you would feel embarrassed for writing such thoughtless, ungracious, pseudo-provocative words.

Now, it is all okay as it's your blog and therefore your terriroty,

Then why faux-piously complain about it or worse, insinuate that we're like a police state? It IS our blog. We do what we've done for four years because it works. Those of you who are so perturbed never make the one choice which makes sense-- not to read something you so violently disagree with.

I don't go to your home, start smoking and then, when you object, give you some pathetic weaseling about "you're like Bush, killing my freedom...but it's YOUR house, so I GUESS it's okay...". You get to control the environment in your home, where I might be a guest. We get to control the environment on this blog, where you are a guest.

My, you contrarians are so righteous and brave, crusading for freedom on a private website, where you are anonymous and not invested in a damned thing. Spare me. I have no time for such shenanigans-- not when I need to prowl and persecute innocents, like I'm the Chicago PD.

Whitey. White Devils. Honkeys. Crackas. Ofays. Gweilo. Gringos. Albino Apes. Pink Nips.

I can go on but I think you get the idea.

AHAHAHAHA. Ennis, you forgot 'papadum'

I live in Staten Island :( , New York, and commuting to Manhattan daily, I often get such treatment. If I am on the Staten Island ferry or in any other public space with a high volume of human traffic, I often get searched by the police. In these same places, if I have a backpack sitting next to me and I get up to throw some garbage in a bin that is even 6 ft. away, passengers often stare at me until I sit down near my backpack again. Being searched in front of many people, often by the same officers on different days can be a tad humiliating, especially because of the intent with which the public watches. I've also noticed that for every 5 or 6 brown people they stop and search, they stop one random white person (even if they don't have any large bags) so they can attempt to argue that they aren't being discriminatory. To be honest, though, I get searched on flights to India every time, too, so I guess no peace for me.

As I made the hop, skip and beat to a cab just outside our door, little snowflakes and raindrops carried down the noxious fumes and traces of nitroglyceride, which tested positive when boarding a Southwest flight

I am reminded of Brazil, where an errant fly causes somebody to be flagged as a terrorist. On a side note people are advised not to wear the same shoes/clothes after handling fireworks/hunting to the airport as that can also cause positive tests for nirate residues.

Whitey. White Devils. Honkeys. Crackas. Ofays. Gweilo. Gringos. Albino Apes.

Also, I'm sorry you had to go through that nonsense. Personally, I don't see how anybody can just shrug off racial profiling/targeting. Being black, one I get a lot is security and employees following me around in stores, watching to make sure I don't steal things. Not the same as being frivolously picked up by the police and taken in for questioning, but the base is the same - keep your eye on that colored person over there because you know (s)he's up to no good. It makes me sick that ignorance like that continues to make its way into policy. But the sad part is that it's not all that surprising.

Sorry for botching the quote tag up there! My newness, it's glowing.

Bwah. Thanks, Ennis. Now I know not to read any further than that.

Did I miss any good ones? I collect racial epithets, especially obscure or evocative ones. I added Caspers and Pink Nips because I remembered them later.

Haha, no I think you've covered it, as far as I know.

But there's also Snowflake, which is fitting for this time of year.

Down here (South Florida, that is), Nordic features will get you profiled every time. I vote Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-Palm Beach as the best place to be brown in America. Even the whites over here are so nice and brownish.

Here's an instance of brown on brown paranoia from B'bay, Dec 2007: My cousins and I were driving past a naval facility in South Bombay at @2AM, and decided to stop and take a pic in front of a giant metal gate labeled "Elephant Gate". There were no signs posted or anything stating no photography. As we were getting back in the car, two randon local-yokel types pulled up on a scooter and told us to stay where we are, that we were doing something illegal, and went to get the gaurd who had been there all along about 100 meters away. We were asked by the guard to give him our camera and he erased pics. We then asked to speak to the supervisor (a martini too many?) and were led inside. We explained to the supervisor that we just wanted a picture of the gate and made some nationalistic statements, after which the officer told us to just take the picture and buzz off. It was no big deal to the officer, and we had to go through the rigmarole just because of the local vigilantes.
This can happen anywhere, not just the US.

Taking photographs in an airport area is a criminal offence in India. Although as always - a small bribe works ;)

Photographing any Indian military installation is a violation of the law. If you have a problem with that take it up with your local MP and try and get the law changed.

Besides I'd like to see you try and photograph any military installation in any country at 2 at night and not get picked up. There is stupid and then there is stupid.

I seem to remember a saying from the early nineties....."Young Republicans....tomorrow's Nazis today!"

Seems, in the end...it's more true than not. But what can you expect from a world held hostage by "James Bond" style villans...and sadly no "James Bond" to sleep his way to their demise....

Wow. Just Wow. Another blog post decrying racism against browns followed by racist statements about whites.

Ennis said "Whitey. White Devils. Honkeys. Crackas. Ofays. Gweilo. Gringos. Albino Apes. Pink Nips."

My stomach hurts seeing these names applied to me. So funny huh? Ha ha ha. I can't read this blog anymore.

For shame.

Gorrrri -

I'm sorry the collection of slurs has put you off. As you can see from the context, it was not directed at anybody, it was merely an enumeration of ethnic slurs in response to a request for a definition.

While I respect your strong visceral reaction to these words, I am somewhat puzzled that you felt they were directed at you. Further, a number of these -- Gweilo, Gringo, Whitey, Casper -- are mild slurs at best.

I've tried to make this a welcoming space for everybody and taken some heat for it; I'd hate to think I'd made you feel unwelcome here.

E

So Prashant, lets get this straight: The guard and the officer were okay with it, but the local goon who raised the ruckus is the genius? This is a facility in the middle of B'bay on a busy road, not remote or set back or anything.

Its a question of knee-jerk mentalities in both cases, as in action occurring independant of gray matter.

I doubt if desi immigrants and their progeny thought of dying for their adopted land.

What a bigoted and ignorant rant !! (comment #56). One of the first casualties of the Iraq war was a Desi.

I have no problems with profiling in theory. My understanding of it is that it is simply related to probability. The application of it is where we get into difficulty. Those who are the frequent recipients of it will certainly have much to say about it.

I do find the views of democracy here very idealistic. My expectations are much lower which enables me to avoid being persistently offended or entitled.

Ultimately all of these issues are mediated via historical and political influences etc and thus our concept of who we are and what rights and expectations we assume will change relatively speaking. Those of you who believe the practice of democratic principles is ahistorical and apolitical and therefore offer everlasting protection are in for further pain.

No democracy is ever safe or unsafe as long as people are around.

Wow. Just Wow. Another blog post decrying racism against browns followed by racist statements about whites. Ennis said "Whitey. White Devils. Honkeys. Crackas. Ofays. Gweilo. Gringos. Albino Apes. Pink Nips." My stomach hurts seeing these names applied to me. So funny huh? Ha ha ha. I can't read this blog anymore. For shame

You are looking at this the wrong way. This is a site where everybody hates everybody. If you perceive that the comments are ant-white please remember 'Keep your friends close and your enemies closer'.

I don't hate white people. Some of my best friends are white. Really!

privilege of using the facilities of this country

:(
Maybe I don't want to go to a large city for grad school or a career...

Ennis, to the question of 'what are goras?', I think the simple response of 'whites' would have been fine. And more generally, I can see why a white person would be put off by some commenters' attitudes on SM (spanning multiple threads). And HMF, I know it is white privilege that makes me even think like this or stand up for them...and I'm fine with that. I should also add that it was embarrassing to have Doug read all the anti-black racist stuff on the LSU thread...so it cuts both ways.

I could have sworn that "Pink Nipples" was something to tell Scythians apart from Lemurians. It would have made a great test too: "Hello, random hot desi girl! I can tell where your ancestors came from just by looking at your nipples". What girl's top would not rise to the occasion?

Back on topic: it's one thing for the Chicago PD to post notices with the "See something/say something" message, but is there any indication that they themselves take it seriously or expect it to produce any results? From the disjointed stuff I've read over the years, the impression I have is that a real terrorist group cannot be detected at the local scale or by random passers-by, but only by someone with access to a lot of nationwide data going back 10 years or more, and computer power to match. This is generally what is declared by the computer science departments at many universities, I suspect solely to get DHS funding. At least one of them (the CS department spiel, or the Chicago PD) is wrong in its assumption. Which?

As thus far Ennis has only stated that the words in question applied to goras, I can safely assume that none of them were directed at me or any of my white-skinned sisters.

Thus, I've got no problem with it. *__^

I don't hate white people. Some of my best friends are white. Really!

Talking about insults - I wonder how a Yank would react when an aussie bloke becomes mates with them. Best mates insult each other. There is even a group on FB for Aussie insults.

I know how to insult an Aussie - call them a Kiwi!

I know how to insult an Aussie - call them a Kiwi!

Please don't call Australians "Kiwis". You must be one of those Canadians.

Best mates insult each other. There is even a group on FB for Aussie insults.

Melbourne desi, does this have something to do with why sledging in cricket seems to be much more accepted by Australians than by South Asians?

I can speak Strine with some strain, but Kiwi is a damned hard dialect ...

If we can put racial profiling aside for a second, I have a bone to pick with the "See something/say something" in general. There are several facets of American society in which enforcement is totally dependent upon anonymous informants, and many of these situations are not criminal matters at all. For example, in upscale communities, neighbors blatantly rat on each other by calling their towns' code enforcement if they don't like someone's new fence or tool shed or the length of the grass. By dutifully following up on anonymous complaints, our cities have not only condoned "ratting on neighbors" but made it a civic responsibility.

But wait, it gets better. One of my two businesses is a chain of preschools, obviously a heavily regulated business as well it should be. Any disgruntled employee who was denied a vacation request, any parent who is two weeks behind in payments and is upset with the poor employee demanding money, can drop the proverbial dime on our business. They can call DCF, file some phony complaint without even identifying themselves, and DCF WILL investigate us within 48 hours as stated in Child Care Ordinance.

Neighbors or consumers, in this case parents, have the right to file complaints. But I object to the anonymous part. By letting people hide, we are taking "See something, say something" to a very undemocratic, fascist level.

This is not a brown problem. This concerns all Americans.

aquafina's comment is damn stupid on at least 10 different points. I recommend ignoring the troll.

Gorrrrri, I don't want to speak for Ennis, but I think the purpose of listing all those epithets was to contextualize that "gora" is often used as a slur, although it can also be used in a non-inflammatory way as Amitabh described (i.e., simply to mean "white"). I hope that doesn't turn you off from reading.

Ginge, I'm glad you're around :)

Melbourne desi, does this have something to do with why sledging in cricket seems to be much more accepted by Australians than by South Asians

Hmmm - calling an aussie a Kiwi is asking for a punchup ;) To talk Kiwi - talk like a regular aussie -but swap 'i' and 'e'. So six is sex and vice versa. Bloody hilarious. congrats on your strine - I find it very sexy to hear a man talk in strine. It would be a shame if it died out.

aquafina:
"everyone protects their own turf. USA belongs to the goras, who built it up from the wide open land it was to the superpower that it is today."
If you edit out the underlined part about the wide open land and replace with "who raped, tortured, stole land from the native americans," then yes, your statement is correct.
"You guys, first/second/third generation browns etc, are all visitors who decided that they liked it and did not want to go to the trouble of working hard to make their own homelands something similar"
Visitors? I was born and raised here, attended US govt schools, and English is my first language. This IS my homeland!
"I doubt if desi immigrants and their progeny thought of dying for their adopted land."
I doubt the majority of white people think of dying for their "home" land.
"So, no point crying when goras implement their policies to protect what they think is their own, when they think it has been harmed by someone brown."
Again, this land is just as much mine as it is a white person's. "Harmed by some brown?" As a Desi-American, why I would I even dream of harming my country? Echoing what Ennis said, so many people have fought for a colorblind citizenship system in the US for years, and the actions of these so-called "goras" are disgusting and unamerican.

Vote for Ron Paul and help end this madness.

Whenever I hear the name Ron Paul I just think of this guy.

Ginge, I'm glad you're around :)

Aw, thank you. I've been around SM for a while, but I'm (very) slowly making my way out of my shell. :)

I know how to insult an Aussie - call them a Kiwi!

Tee hee :D

Aquafina says:

I ask you all, how is the increased gora surveillence of the browns any different from anna and her moderators prowling the comments, deleting, critiquing and banning? Might or might not be right, but putting up with it is the price the commentors have to pay for the privilege of posting here. Similarly, it could be that the average gora american sees such treatment as the price the browns have to pay for the privilege of using the facilities of this country.

Anna says:

Why the hell does it always come back to me? I am not the only moderator here. I don't delete when someone disagrees with me, I delete when they break our rules. For you to insinuate otherwise is like spitting in my face.

Anna's actually nice about banning. I'm straight up thug. I'm banning you for no other reason than that you prefer Aquafina to Evian. Plus promoting bottled water is bad for the environment and against the views of Sepia Mutiny. So long jackass.

i've always thought something is seriously amiss in chicago ever since i met several chicago cops in a vail bar a few years ago. they were on a skiing holiday and pretty lubed up alcohol wise....lubed enough to have discussions with us about how they really felt about african americans and "the crimes they commit" (their words). of course i'm pretty naive so i was fairly shocked at their clear lack of objectivity and racial tolerance.

suffice to say it was a disturbing conversation that haunts me to this day (one of the guys was bragging about his newborn and sharing her photo from his wallet). i had visions of him abusing his power against some defenseless minority soul and equally worse, passing his hate to his next generation (that cute newborn...poor thing). i've read several articles in national papers since then about chicago police corruption cases....and now this.

"Anna's actually nice about banning. I'm straight up thug. I'm banning you for no other reason than that you prefer Aquafina to Evian. Plus promoting bottled water is bad for the environment and against the views of Sepia Mutiny. So long jackass."
Nice, but Evian is bottled, too, though Aquafina is really nothing more than glorified tap water.

My stomach hurts seeing these names applied to me. So funny huh? Ha ha ha. I can't read this blog anymore. For shame.

You still have white privilege. So you'll probably be OK.

Try telling someone who's lost a loved on on 9/11 about you being inconvenienced by security every now and then. I don't think you'd get much sympathy.

So I guess people should govern based on victimhood? Granted, I can understand that those families may want more security. But I personally do not. We should not be a nation of cowards. Even if a 9/11 took place once every year(and we know it doesnt), the chances of you being affected by it are less than the fallout of traffic accidents in the US.

A lot of those airport security measures are stupid. They are simply not worth the inconvenience for your regular traveler. Maybe the person who travels once a year doesn't mind. BUt for people who travel once a week, or even once a month, it is ridiculous. The whole liquids carry on restriction is a total joke. Hijacking a plane really comes down to one objective in the post 9-11 days - taking control of the plane. If it was just about threatening passenger lives, terrorists could just as easily cause as much damage in a train or a crowded bus. Sealing the cockpit door will put an end to any such hopes. Use that money wasted on extra security in improving our intelligence sector. Or invest in the policing of a few downtrodden communities. More lives could be saved that way.

And here is another factor for less hijackings in the future. I think passengers are more willing to fight back as they are more aware of the futility of negotiating with suicidal loons.

I am not afraid of terrorists. Are you? Quality of life is important to me. And that does not have room for being governed by fear.

I can't wait for Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo to be released-- but this is NOT FUNNY.

I live and work very close to the trade center site in New York and you are correct that the policing is getting out of hand, it makes me uneasy to think that everytime I am talking in Hindi or Punjabi on the phone or taking pictures with my family some overzealous person may be calling 911.

What I don't understand is how much of this vigilance or paranoia, or whatever you want to call it, is spent or heightened or whatever, in locations where lightning most likely won't strike twice. This is the true punishment inflicted by the war-ravaged and be-bombed on distant shores upon everyone here, but especially on brownz who make their home here.

If all fails, bring along a token white guy.

HMF - as a frequent token white guy...I've noticed recently that I've been getting more dirty looks from the other white folk. I try to not let it bother me, though it gets under my skin. And I do wonder if it's just perception that's changed, and the dirty looks have always been there. But I have a plan than bringing along your very own TWG: better to just play up the model minority card and wear white lab coats all the time. That shit makes everyone invisible. Alright, settle down, I keed.

It's actually much worse when I go to lunch with my buddy Chip, who's a white Sikh. We get dirty looks from everyone, and I mean all color and creed.

But America is still better than France. Here, all foreigners (not short-term tourists) report to the prefecture. They have to check in every year and are evaluated on their "progress". The police routinely check your ID cards. And when I was at the Indian Bangladeshi restaurant a few weeks ago, someone from the authorities came around to "interview" the poor fellow. It was all very hushed and polite and civil just like in one of those Nazi-era movies. He's still open though so I guess they didn't drag him off to somewhere never to be heard off again. Still, it gave me the chills.

Everyone stares at you here. I look up from lunch, or my reading or whatever and notice that someone has just quickly averted their staring gaze. This happens to others too. My Japanese friend complains about it. And even a long settled English woman. Unlike America, here, every foreigner is suspect.

I'm not sure where you live in France, but I don't think you should generalize the whole country on your experience. My experience in Paris is quite different. There are so many immigrants here, that no one really stares at anyone else for looking different. The number 4 metro line is more diverse than the number 7 train in New York that John Rocker famously dislikes. Often, people assume my wife (also Indian) and I are French. I only get complimented on my French when people find out I am a US citizen.

The dealings with the Prefecture/Police are experienced by all foreigners, including those from the US, Australia, etc., regardless of race. It is more an issue with French bureaucracy than with racism. Sure, the facilities at Prefectures in more immigrant heavy neighborhoods are not as good, but this has much to do with the socioeconomic reasons.

There is racism in France, and the US is more friendly to foreigners for many reasons, but I think you're version of the discrepancy is not accurate. While it may apply to your experience, I don't think you can generalize the whole country. Also, while Paris is different than the rest of the country (not unlike London or New York), it is still part of the country. It would be the equivalent as saying the US is hostile to foreigners/brown people because of the bulletin the Chicago Police have posted.

Better to be safe than sorry. It's easy to criticize the police, but I don't think any of you cowards would want another 9/11. It's a post- 9/11 world; get used to it.

Except the kind of profiling Ennis described does NOT actually make us safer. So even if you care nothing for the feelings or humanity of the people being harassed, you should be pissed off that the harassment isn't even achieving what it's intended to achieve.

If all fails, bring along a token white guy.

HMF - as a frequent token white guy...I've noticed recently that I've been getting more dirty looks from the other white folk.

Get a white friend? Also, don't fly with a crazy woman [CAUTION: Language NSFW].

“immediately report any or all … suspect activity” including note taking, camera usage, video usage and map usage.

= DHS color-coded terror alert version 2.0. Now with instruction manual! Batteries not included. Must be able to distinguish between activity and suspect activity. Not recommended for children under 75.

hey aquafina -- can you please comment on goras, western imperialism, and how those ugly little brown people should feel "privileged" that goras ruled them for hundreds of years? I mean...the british did build railroads in india...

There's an exchange between Matt Damon's character and Joe Pesci's character in The Good Shepherd that goes like this:

Joseph Palmi: Let me ask you something... we Italians, we got our families, and we got the church; the Irish, they have the homeland, Jews their tradition; even the niggers, they got their music. What about you people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?

Edward Wilson: The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting.

Any questions?

turbanhead,
Thats the dialogue from "The Good Sheperd" that instantly hit me and I have always remembered it since I watched the movie a while back. It sums up a lot in one sentence. Its a great line.

Also, don't fly with a crazy woman

Definitely DO NOT fly with someone like this guy. But as the saying goes "You buys your ticket and you takes your chances" when it comes to air travel these days.

Definitely DO NOT fly with someone like this guy.

That would have definitely freaked me out. It looks like at least the other passengers were trying to keep him calm, but it almost seems like he was provoked. Maybe that's just my brown sensitivity revealing itself.

Also, am I the only brown that totally dislikes the term 'gora'? It just seems to me that the word is never used in a positive light, and furthers an 'us' and 'them' mentality. I'm all for people that use something that is commonly used as a slur to apply to themselves for whatever reason. That's their choice.

But someone using a slur against me and calling it 'mild' doesn't help to soften the blow. There are no degrees of hatred are there? Verbal and physical abuse are the same to me. Perhaps the law would disagree with me there, but if something is commonly known as a slur/offensive, it pays to be sensitive to others. I know in this day and age there's a lot of getting carried away with PC bullshit, but when you hurt someone else's feelings you don't soon forget it. Let's just try to use a little more discretion, lest we become this.

Although this story is already on the newstab, but I'm going to excerpt it here because it is somewhat relevant. And perfectly awful.

Although he was never accused of committing a crime, Narinder Singh spent years locked up in an immigration detention cell, courtesy of the federal government. He was beaten by a fellow inmate, spent time in the hole, and lived in a pod with 40 other men, deprived of sunlight, his own reading material, or much more than an hour of recreation time a day. Serving no sentence, Singh never knew when or if he would get out ...

In the spring of 2002, in the fervid months after the 9/11 attacks, Singh flew to India, where his mother had just died. When he returned, an immigration official at JFK suspected that his marriage was a sham to gain permanent-resident status, and he began proceedings to deport Singh. Because Singh had been questioned in an airport—technically crossing a border—immigration law allowed for Singh to be detained indefinitely as his case made its way through the system. As immigration officials lost his paperwork for months, or sent his case to other jurisdictions, Singh was transferred from one facility to the next, waiting for what was always supposed to be a few more months until everything would work out. Without having committed a single crime, Singh ultimately spent five and a half years in what amounts to federal prison—one of the longest detention spells in recent history.

Wow!

Definitely DO NOT fly with someone like this guy.

Wow, that was one hell of a meltdown. Found this article on him, but there doesn't seem to be much information about why exactly he was screaming.

Of course, Hannity & Colmes had this to contribute on the incident:

We can't always assume because they're cursing and yelling and they're another ethnicity that they're ready to bomb a plane. [link]

Yes, what magnanimity from Fox News! 'Tis indeed the season for generosity and forgiveness.

i read some of the comments posted with the video. bad idea. makes you think that the world is full of nazis...or worse (though obviously a lot of self-selected kkk types are particularly prone to commenting in forums such as those).

I agree with aquafina on just one point about how 1st gen browns can go back and make their homelands better. Most of the 1st gen Indians in US got highly subsidised college education in India but work in US and pay taxes to uncle sam and get the nerve to comment on websites about problems in India and how they can be fixed, as if India is some kind of lodge and they are filling up a feedback card after ther stay in India. I guess emigration is a good way to weed out these ingrates, if India can get these people to pay back their education costs, it would not be such a total waste of tax payers money. I feel these 1st gens will be first to catch a boat out if, say, US is attacked in a war or if US economy deteriorates rapidly.

Most of the 1st gen Indians in US got highly subsidised college education in India but work in US and pay taxes to uncle sam and get the nerve to comment on websites about problems in India and how they can be fixed

Many of these 1st gen people advocated India as a development hub when senior management at MNCs was looking at Ireland and other Western countries. Do you have any idea how tough a sell that was back then ? The people who write stupid NRI bashing articles in Outlook are cut from the cloth as the people who advocated socialism, stifled job growth and sent my parents' generation packing. I suppose they could have stayed and "gave back" to India like so many of those corrupt IAS officers do every day.

82 · monimoni : So Prashant, lets get this straight: The guard and the officer were okay with it, but the local goon who raised the ruckus is the genius? This is a facility in the middle of B'bay on a busy road, not remote or set back or anything.

Its a question of knee-jerk mentalities in both cases, as in action occurring independant of gray matter.

He may not be a genius but he was keeping with the law. If you break a law expect to get punished. The laws also do not say anything about the site of the military installation. Technically even Google Earth is in violation of the same set of laws.

You don't get it. You chose to describe the incident as "brown on brown paranoia". In your case the individuals exhibited as much paranoia as a policeman detaining someone scaling the walls of a house. There is a violation of the law in either case.

The officer on duty probably noticed that you were inebriated and probably the sort to start a grand discussion on democracy with the resulting circus that is the Indian media and chose to let you get on with it. That does not change the fact that you were wrong to do what you did.

then worked there for 8 more years.

Moderation pleeeeeeeeez.

So sip your lattes, fire up your mercs and bimmers and quit complaining! You are the new brown slaves!

Slaves never had it so good!

Moderation pleeeeeeeeez.

Arre, please to not be feeding trollz pleeeeeeeez.

Greetings fellow desi's in utopia, I was at college in the US for 7 years and then worked there for 8 more years. I am back in India now and love it. There is more freedom here, no freaking 'gestapo' cops and if you are an entrepreneur it is a great place to be. In life you choose between freedom in India and its problems or a organized society where brown skins are all suspects and 'freedom' is hypocrisy. So sip your lattes, fire up your mercs and bimmers and quit complaining! You are the new brown slaves!

As a counterpoint, Chicago is home to This American Life. Someone earlier mentioned Jose Padilla, This Life did a story on him in Jan. '03.

Talking of This amreekan Life, do check out the episode they did on the John Pickle case. The one where he brought 52 workers from India at work in a steel factory here. Minimal commentary from Ira makes it one of the better episodes.

And how soon the story of Jose Padilla, who was once considered one of the most dangerous terrorists to be apprehended on US soil, was reduced to a complete mental shambles and a wreck of a person after subhuman treatment during years of detention without charging, and then finally convicted on some nebulous charges of conspiracy, all this significantly based on torture generated evidence from Abu Zubaydah

Um... just so we all know, this is the nice guy that he was before he was "reduced to a complete mental shambles and a wreck of a person after subhuman treatment during years of detention without charging"

Jose Padilla was born in Brooklyn, New York, but later moved to Chicago, Illinois, where he joined the Maniac Latin Disciples street gang and was arrested several times. He was convicted of aggravated assault as a juvenile when a gang member he kicked in the head died. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_%28prisoner%29#Life_before_imprisonment

what if... you were a minority in the sense of gender, race, color, religion, age, sexuality... would you still be as secure. i am not a fan of the US economic disparity or of the consumerism, but your gloat is misplaced. if people here are critical of the US here it is because they expect better for themselves, for their country, and will fight for what's right - as opposed to sitting comfortably in a personal cocoon and count the rupiah. And here's the deal - all that money counts for snot if you dont have the level of security that a stable society can provide. if it works for you - good for you - but it's a shallow perspective.

Ah! India bashing. That perennial hobby. I don't suppose you could actually make a positive point about your society without having to point at India, try and make a ridiculously convoluted comparison and thank God for how you are safely out of that hell hole?

Minimal commentary from Ira makes it one of the better episodes.

Ah! India bashing. That perennial hobby. I don't suppose you could actually make a positive point about your society without having to point at India, try and make a ridiculously convoluted comparison and thank God for how you are safely out of that hell hole?

He was responding to America-bashing, from a troll. Your point is not well-taken. You're imagining hostility which isn't there.

Jose Padilla was born in Brooklyn, New York, but later moved to Chicago, Illinois, where he joined the Maniac Latin Disciples street gang and was arrested several times. He was convicted of aggravated assault as a juvenile when a gang member he kicked in the head died. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_%28prisoner%29#Life_before_imprisonment

You are right. This kind of juvenile behavior is completely deserving of being locked up in a brig, have the key thrown away, locked in a cell for 23 hours a day with sensory deprivation and other inhumane treatment, and holding him guilty of crimes equivalent to high treason without any due process. Who doesn't want a little Stalin in our lives?

He was responding to America-bashing, from a troll. Your point is not well-taken. You're imagining hostility which isn't there.

hat if... you were a minority in the sense of gender, race, color, religion, age, sexuality... would you still be as secure.

And here's the deal - all that money counts for snot if you dont have the level of security that a stable society can provide.

There is an insinuation there of the perceived inferiority of civil society and authority in India. So I do think there is hostility there.

I was pointing out that the appropriate response to America-bashing is not India-bashing. How is that wrong?

All emphasis in quoted post is mine.

I was pointing out that the appropriate response to America-bashing is not India-bashing. How is that wrong?

It's not wrong at all, but that's not what your comment read like, to me. Thanks for clarifying.

This kind of juvenile behavior

To call murdering somebody with a kick to the head "juvenile behavior" is rather hypocritical while criticizing the horrible effects of torture and waterboarding, wouldn't you say ? A whole thread is devoted to Huckabee's loser son lynching a dog. Then that should also get excused as "juvenile behavior" too, shouldn't it ? The irony here is that if this guy Padilla had been out on the streets he'd probably have been killed by a rival gang member years ago. But now he's a poster boy to some people.

@aquafina,
Maybe the comment should read as :
The USA belongs to the Native Americans who lived peacefully on this land without bothering anyone. All you goras (first,....,seventh) are just visitors who came in here, liked it,decided to stay and genocided colonized the earlier inhabitants, instead of working hard to better your European (in the 18th and 19th century) third world hellholes. Dont worry, you might just hear comments like these from the Hispanic majority in 2040.

The irony here is that if this guy Padilla had been out on the streets he'd probably have been killed by a rival gang member years ago. But now he's a poster boy to some people.

You are so right again! The state has the exact moral responsibility as the lowest of its citizens. Padilla's crimes (who cares what they are, really?) make him completely deserving of anything the "justice system" (I use the term very loosely in this case) chooses to throw at him. In fact, why don't we put criminals to some use to better the fate of humanity? Better to be an involuntary cripple or even die in the service of Mother America than lead a life in a society where there is an expectation of justice.

I wonder why all these hypocritical people who just hate the rule of law don't protest when members of the Italian mafia, or MS-13 are arrested with adequate evidence of conspiracy, murder etc. and administered proportionate punishment?

To call murdering somebody with a kick to the head "juvenile behavior" is rather hypocritical while criticizing the horrible effects of torture and waterboarding, wouldn't you say ?

I was using the term "juvenile" in the legal sense.

A whole thread is devoted to Huckabee's loser son lynching a dog. Then that should also get excused as "juvenile behavior" too, shouldn't it ?

I might be splitting hairs here, but I feel that condemning Huckabee's son's treatment is a tad different than the state incarcerating random citizens for many years on unsubstantiated charges. Personally, I found Huckabee senior's misuse of his official authority probably the most disturbing aspect of the story relevant to American politics today. I don't remember people advocating that David Huckabee's genitals be administered a healthy dose of electric shock just in case he decides to transfer his predilection to inflict violence on helpless creatures to innocent humans.

Rahul, I'm glad you're back :)

Padilla's crimes (who cares what they are, really?) make him completely deserving of anything the "justice system" (I use the term very loosely in this case) chooses to throw at him.

Ok, it seems Padilla has struck some kind of chord in you. There are better people who are worth devoting legal resources to help acquit. Padilla is not worth the wasted resources. Yes on paper it seems like it would be a good idea, but the man is not worthy of help. Legal triage if you want to call it that, save those actually worth saving. He isn't a Colonel Dreyfus, but people want to make him one. Rodney King comes to mind.

Oops.. accidentally promoted Captain Dreyfus to Colonel.

"In fact, why don't we put criminals to some use to better the fate of humanity?"

Rahul-
I find it ironic that you are defending the government's unethical treatment of jose padilla but seem quite ok with a possibly even more disturbing racial crime by the US government - the Tuskegee experiment.

Rahul, I'm glad you're back :)

I find it ironic that you are defending the government's unethical treatment of jose padilla

Either your irony meter is broken and you cannot detect Rahul's irony/sarcasm, or your statement is in fact not a rhetorical use of irony, but merely a factual one, that is, you have merely stated that you have detected irony in Rahul's statement and I have mistaken this factual statement for ironic commentary, in which case your sense of humor is much more meta than mine. Much too meta for a Friday night. So meta in fact that Alanis Morisette's head just exploded.

And here's the deal - all that money counts for snot if you dont have the level of security that a stable society can provide.

Much too meta for a Friday night. So meta in fact that Alanis Morisette's head just exploded.

Vikram, now easy honey don't make me open this!

People shouldn't drink things clearly labeled "Ass" on them... for once there might be truth in advertising ;-)

shite! You got me good there, pingpongpingpongpingpong.... As a token of my appreciation, I'll let the overused alanis morissette joke slide...

i do want you to see my perspective to understand my irritation with the troll. a little before that post appeared, i had received an email from my mp tellign me about the action she took in the parliament because i had expressed concern about a (non-desi) immigrant's experience here (in canada). we'll be meeting for coffee some time when she is back from ottawa. this is my sense of a stable society. i am not a rich businessman or a maverick journalist with a bully pulpit. yet i have the power to affect governance because i feel passionately about some issues and can influence action at the right political level. this is what matters to me. to live in a plce where someone else will look out for my interests as much as i look out for others. this is what is a stable society to me. the US is going through a major upheaval and why not. she has seen the single worst act of militant aggression on its soil since Pearl Harbor. The push and pull you see is she trying to regain her balance with people representing opposing points of view on how we can protect its borders. no one has a handle on right versus wrong but we have to each participate in the debate with our core values as guide. this is how we realize a stable society. the act of participation and the act of being recognized as a participant. hence this whole thread is critical and why i was irritated that some guy popped in saying that things are bad from browns, so it's best to go to india and lord it out.

Khoofia, not to disagree, but the population of canada will fit into mumbai and a few suburbs, so its not really surprising that mps have much closer relationships with constituents (hell what you describe will not even happen in the u.s.; it has also to do with canada's strong labor unions; we can have a discussion later about how unions promote solidarity even in the larger society). by the way, your whole comparison is patently unfair (again i do not disagree with your factual observations), as was the initial commentator's comparison (which prompted you to comment); india is a very poor country; in fact it is somewhat of a theoretical anomaly (in the literature on democratization). it is not even supposed to be a democracy, given its level of inequality, social problems and lack of development.

What's the big deal??

So the cops ask a few questions, and you can forcefully demolish any accusations. You do
this diplomatically and vigorously such that the next time they think twice about approaching
someone in a similar position. Get the police badge number and precinct to follow
up on it. Write to your local editor. Post on blogs.

The police and state troopers in this country are by in large a conscientious group. They
follow protocols and are trying to combat on a daily basis violence, drugs, prostitution
and robbery.

After 9/11 cops have stopped me in the NY/NJ area. Big deal. I stood my ground
and defended myself. This is what makes America great -- if you perceive an injustice you have ample
means to take corrective action. I continue to believe the law enforcement and justice in this country
is almost universally on the side of innocents.

Much too meta for a Friday night.

Rahul, I'm glad you're back :)

am not a rich businessman or a maverick journalist with a bully pulpit. yet i have the power to affect governance because i feel passionately about some issues and can influence action at the right political level. this is what matters to me. to live in a plce where someone else will look out for my interests as much as i look out for others. this is what is a stable society to me.

There are many people who claim to be dispassionate in their quest for justice. But most often than not they have pet concerns that focus their outrage in pretty predictable directions. Some people will play Chicken Little over Padilla and Lodi, for others Ruby Ridge & Waco cause extreme heartburn and pronouncements about law enforcement/judiciary being "jack booted thugs". I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing because I think a healthy society requires some conflict between competing interests. I would recommend that those of you who are trying to reach out to people like me who are not modern day Solons be more selective in who you choose as poster boys. Taliban groupies like Padilla/Guantanamo Britons are pretty poor choices. While it is true that these people may not be guilty of anything besides having disgusting opinions and keeping bad company, at the end of the day we the unwashed masses will know that they were instrumental in bringing about their own misfortune. I am far more moved by the fact that many of the Guantanamo Afghans were not taken on the battle field and may just be innocent peasants turned in for reward money.

W Varaiya @ 154:

What's the big deal??

"So the cops ask a few questions, and you can forcefully demolish any accusations. You do this diplomatically and vigorously such that the next time they think twice about approaching someone in a similar position...

After 9/11 cops have stopped me in the NY/NJ area. Big deal. I stood my ground and defended myself. This is what makes America great -- if you perceive an injustice you have ample means to take corrective action. I continue to believe the law enforcement and justice in this country is almost universally on the side of innocents."

Unfortunately, this doesn't quite work where I live, which is the jurisdiction of one of the most corrupt precincts in NYC. I personally know people who have been accosted by groups of police for no reason, and friends of mine have had cocaine planted on them just so they could be arrested and help fill the quotas we have here.

Oops.. accidentally promoted Captain Dreyfus to Colonel.

Vikram, honest and understandable mistake. After all, which reasonable person would deem a mere captain's incarceration and sham trial as worthy of protest? A colonel, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter.

There are many people who claim to be dispassionate in their quest for justice. But most often than not they have pet concerns that focus their outrage in pretty predictable directions... I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing because I think a healthy society requires some conflict between competing interests... Taliban groupies like Padilla/Guantanamo Britons are pretty poor choices. While it is true that these people may not be guilty of anything besides having disgusting opinions and keeping bad company, at the end of the day we the unwashed masses will know that they were instrumental in bringing about their own misfortune. I am far more moved by the fact that many of the Guantanamo Afghans were not taken on the battle field and may just be innocent peasants turned in for reward money.

I guess one must be grateful that the tired old boring opinions of obsessive justice pansies are not deemed disgusting by the arbiters of the acceptable level of arbitrariness in our society. Of course, one wonders why Afghans who, like those illegal Bangladeshi Muslims, are guilty of belonging to the wrong religion and living on the wrong side of a border, should not be summarily judged as capable of the most heinous acts and preemptively dealt the retribution that they would have received in the event that they had committed the crimes that we thought that they intended to commit.

Some people will play Chicken Little over Padilla and Lodi

It is indeed the people who worry about erosions of basic rights in an "Al Qaeda is falling, Al Qaeda is falling" frenzy who are the Chicken Littles. Maybe the trail of (how dare he have a name that is a homonym of a known criminal!) bread crumbs must lead to a windowless and keyless cell before we are allowed to acknowledge the risk of a witch hunt.

Vikram, honest and understandable mistake. After all, which reasonable person would deem a mere captain's incarceration and sham trial as worthy of protest? A colonel, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter.

Pondering such issues kept you up late ?

Maybe the trail of (how dare he have a name that is a homonym of a known criminal!) bread crumbs must lead to a windowless and keyless cell before we are allowed to acknowledge the risk of a witch hunt.

Perhaps you can infiltrate the FBI or CIA and peek into their secret files to find all those windowless/keyless/doorless/curtainless cells. They have pretty liberal hiring policies... Maybe even offer to do a Martha Stewart makeover on those danged grim sounding cells.

like those illegal Bangladeshi Muslims

Rahul: There you go again. India does not have a right to detain or torture Bangladeshi illegals and I have never suggested that they do. But the GOI has an obligation to prevent their entry into India and the right to repatriate them without any punitive detention. India does not have the resources to support these people and should be rightfully concerned about demographic shift given the continued support for the Two Nation theory by "progressives" (in quotes because last time I checked religion as a basis for nationhood is illiberal, at least if you are a Hindu or Christian)

Rahul: There you go again. India does not have a right to detain or torture Bangladeshi illegals and I have never suggested that they do.

Don't be too surprised by these crazy accusations. For a certain cohort on this blog, its preferable to make random accusations and bring up irrelevant charges than actually debate.

louiecypher, fair enough about calling me out on my unnecessary rhetorical flourish. I don't want that to distract from my larger point in the comment though.

That said, while an economic argument to keep Bangladeshi Muslims out might be more defensible (although it still has the massive arbitrariness of being born on the right side of a random line on the ground, and we can argue about the (un)fairness of that demarcation), and I don't know what "progressives" you are talking about, I do not think the answer to the poisonous notion of countries based on a Muslim identity is to create a "secular" country defined by its Hindu identity where all Muslims are treated as guilty of being a fifth column unless they prove otherwise. I will keep from discussing this specific issue more on this thread though, as that would derail it, and I'm sure we will have tons of other opportunities.

For Profool and others who think life is fine and dandy if they have their lives in the hands of the government, read this:

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0751,thompson,78685,2.html

A quote below:

"Although he was never accused of committing a crime, Narinder Singh spent years locked up in an immigration detention cell, courtesy of the federal government. He was beaten by a fellow inmate, spent time in the hole, and lived in a pod with 40 other men, deprived of sunlight,.."

The unique thing about the US, which should NEVER diminish, is the respect for individuals' rights. Whenever you concede an inch on that point, you lose a mile. Not perfect, perhaps, but the best there is on this planet.

The USA is unique among all other countries that NO official takes an oath to protect the people or the land: the oath is to preserve and protect the Constitution. May that always be the case!

For Profool and others who think life is fine and dandy if they have their lives in the hands of the government, read this:

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0751,thompson,78685,2.html

--

Secret prisons, torture, indefinite detention and weakened habeas corpus are unconstitutional in my view. Americans will never support a Kafkaesque society. With said, we need a coherent policy on illegal immigration. This man appears to be undocumented, and if we had a coherent national policy regarding undocumented his rights would be better protected -- as would ours.

Let me give you another example of the GREAT MAGNANIMITY of this country.

Robert Hansen, the most damaging spy of our generation, had nearly a two
decade plus spying career for the Soviet Union at the height of Cold War.
He was convicted and sent to jail for life.

Do you know what happened to his wife?

His wife receives the FBI pension Robert Hansen would have been eligible for
his years of (dis)service in the FBI. The USA determined she was innocent, and
thought Hansen spent his time damaging country it chose not to punish her.

This is type of generosity is emblematic of this country.

13 · prafool said

levels

Someone smarter than I am once said "Those who trade their liberties for their security deserve neither." No one wants another 9/11, but at the same time they would like a basic right to do what you want. Last time I checked, the technology had progressed far enough that no one needs to "intrude" to find out what one is doing IN PUBLIC. I can definitely agree if one is doing something out of the ordinary in a given environment (taking notes near a Nuclear power plant v/s taking notes on a train). As Lewis Black (??) once quipped -- "What do you consider suspicious/strange in NYC? I have seen people talking to sandwiches on a train!"