December 26, 2007
Children in UP Manipulated in to Discriminating Against a DalitIssues
Who hearts the News tab? I totally do and since I had a few moments, I managed to do what I always intend but never get around to— I checked which story was currently “most interesting” as measured by the “top in 24 hr” link. Eleven of us thought the following tip, which was submitted by Condekedar a few days ago, was important:
Indian children boycott school lunches cooked by ‘Untouchable’
Condekedar wrote this rather attention-getting summary…
A sad reminder of the continued existence of caste-discrimination. This story is even worse, because it’s children who are showing their bigotry, not just prejudiced older people.
Via The Independent:
By her own admission, the lunches cooked by Phool Kumari Rawat may not always be the tastiest food the pupils at her school have ever eaten. And with more than 300 students to cook for, getting the proportions right can be a struggle.
But the children of Bibipur Primary and Junior High School near Lucknow have not launched a boycott of Mrs Rawat’s food because of its taste, but because Mrs Rawat is a Dalit, a so-called Untouchable. As a result, they say, the food is unclean.
A whole new generation, India’s best generation yet with regards to opportunity, learning the worst about others. Condekedar is right; it is extra-disheartening to read about such sentiments from little kids.
Such incidents are not uncommon in India, where caste remains a debilitating and divisive phenomenon, especially for those 75 per cent of people who live in rural communities. But the boycott at Bibipur is especially noteworthy because it is taking place in Uttar Pradesh (UP), the state which this year elected a Dalit woman, Mayawati Kumari, as its chief minister. Campaigners say that despite Mayawati’s poll victory, Dalits still suffer widespread discrimination.
First, they did right by the woman:
When the boycott of the meals began last week, local officials stood by Mrs Rawat, a widow with three children, and tried to persuade the students that there was nothing unhygienic about her food. Officials who inspected her cooking said there were no problems and one even ate the lunch – vegetables and rice – in front of the students to persuade them to end their boycott.
…but they didn’t stay strong:
But The Indian Express newspaper reports that with the children not backing down from the boycott, the authorities are now poised to sack Mrs Rawat.
Two issues are being conflated; the quality of the lunches and the hands which cook them. If it were merely about the former, I don’t think anyone would fault the kids. The revolt might even be framed as a cute rebellion by pigtailed and cow-licked children, standing up for their right to yumminess. But…
Tellingly, children who live in Mrs Rawat’s neighbourhood are still eating the lunches, while those involved in the boycott have reportedly made little effort to hide their reason for refusing to eat. “I will not eat anything cooked by that lady. I have heard my family members say that she is from some low caste. So I bring my own lunch box,” said one pupil, Shivani Singh Chauhan.
So much for Mayawati ushering in a new era?
However, Ram Kumar, of the National Campaign for Dalit Human Rights, said: “There are no equal rights in UP. We have a Dalit chief minister but more than 80 per cent of the bureaucracy are members of the upper caste. There are many villages in UP that are totally dominated by caste and there is not any chance of social equality.”
Oh, the poignant resignation in these words:
Mrs Rawat, who earns the equivalent of just 75p a day, said: “I am a widow with three kids. Earlier, I worked as a labourer. If they remove me from here I will accept it as my fate and will again work as a labourer.”
They removed her.
Fast forward a few days…it looks like she’s not quite ready to accept her fate, just yet:
Phool Kumari Rawat, the Dalit woman at the centre of the mid-day meal controversy in Bibipur Primary and Junior High School, came to Lucknow today and sat on a dharna in front of the Vidhan Sabha.[IndianExpress]
I’ll admit that I had no idea what that meant. For those of you who are also not acquainted with “dharna”:
A fast conducted at the door of an offender, especially a debtor, in India as a means of obtaining compliance with a demand for justice, such as payment of a debt.[Bartleby, but not the scrivener]
And for commenter Amitabh :) and those who love language like he does, from the same non-scrivener link:
ETYMOLOGY: Hindi dharn, from Prakrit dharaa, from Sanskrit dharaam, act of supporting, stay.
Good for her. Go on with your bad self, lady. What a righteous way to protest how she was forced out. Seems necessary, too, considering that predictably, “officials” are refuting her cries of discrimination by saying that she was let go because the village committee which had appointed her was abolished out of concerns regarding corruption, i.e. she’s an indirect victim of something else which has nothing to do with her caste.
In Lucknow, Phool Kumari herself had yet another story to tell. “Controversy began the day I started cooking at the school. When I went there to serve food on December 11, principal V D Dixit told me that his students would not eat meals cooked by a Dalit woman,” said Phool Kumari.
She added: “The children would come to me each day and tell me that I cooked unhygienically, even though all outsiders — officials and members of social organisations — didn’t find anything wrong with the meal.”.[IndianExpress]
Way to keep the best interest of the children in mind there, Dixit.
There were further developments out of Lucknow, today:
The state SC/ST commission has accepted a petition filed by Ambedkar Mahasabha — a social organisation working for the rights of Dalits. The education and administration officials have been called for the first hearing on Thursday and explain the reason behind her removal.
Well, look what pathetic activities some investigating uncovered:
The Mahasabha has alleged that Phool Kumari was removed under pressure from higher castes. It has also asked the commission to punish the concerned officers under ST/ST (Prevention of Atrocities) Act. “Our members visited the school and the village and talked to cross section of people. It was found that the teachers belonging to higher castes have instigated the children to oppose Phool Kumari. We have asked that education officers be punished too,” said Bina Maurya, national general secretary of the Mahasabha.
SR Darapuri, vice-president of the district wing of Mahasabha said: “In our petition, we have made it clear that dismissal of cook is not only illegal but if it goes unnoticed, it will encourage untouchability in other schools.”[IndianExpress]
Here’s hoping Phool Kumari and her quondam students get what they each deserve; respect for her, and for them, guidance from progressive adults who are not ass hats.
anna on December 26, 2007 08:35 PM in Issues, Kids, Religion · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
some events can change the world in retrospect---this could be one of them. ironically, the ones who can lead the charge are the powerful local thugs there, the vhp.
if the vhp types do not step in for rawat against discrimination, it blows a big hole into their claim they do not discriminate among castes---of course, they are probably for it in any case, so nothing big will happen. but if they do, it probably strikes a bigger blow against discrimination than any of us can do. it is a weird world we live in.
Anna, I must admit to being left without adequate words before the scale of this prejudice. Yes, the children must be educated with a different set of values but how to begin when the teachers themselves perpetuate the bigotry? I suppose teachers must be called to account before some kind of a state board that reviews such complaints, an impartial body made up of professionals in other fields, that can recommend censure if the case warrants.
all the best
Indran
http://indranamirthanayagam.blogspot.com
this is upsetting, and i wish i was surprised, but i'm not. the venom injected into each indian generation is akin to the anti-immigrant, anti-multicultural fervor instilled in the youth in "amerika." i'm just proud and happy for that small percentage in each generation that is able to break away.
on another note, i think i'd like to donate to the national campaign for dalit human rights, or a similar, worthy organization. good way to start out 2008. if anyone knows of one, please post.
this is indeed appalling, but correct if i am wrong,posts on this blog that relate to India always seem to highlight the injustices, never the good that is in India --India is a mix of many things, good and bad, but this blog seems to highlight only the very worst that happens in India...
As sbkt says, the officials have replaced her with another woman of the same caste to isolate the reason for the complaint. Rather good show of scientific hypothesis testing, that.
Phool Kumari Rawat's options are rather limited - even if she is reinstated, there's no sensible way that the kids could be made to not bring their own lunch from home. If enough students don't eat the school lunches, the school would have a good reason to lay her off on the basis of redundancy, and that reason (excuse?) would be bulletproof.
Some more stuff that could indicate systemic bias: apparently some SC/ST students were not awarded the scholarship money they earned, but the article inconveniently does not specify whether any non-SC/ST students got their scholarships or whether it affected all students.
4 · tarta said
i'd respectfully disagree with you, as i'm sure would many others who frequent the mutiny. i honestly feel that there's a healthy balance between snark and seriousness. moreover, even the positives (ie. booming economy, tech centers, etc.) should be examined and discussed to dissect their full impact. not always the glossy pluses...
Always?
You are wrong. And if you think you are not, it would have been thoughtful of you to include specific links to the posts you are hinting at, in your original comment. That's a rather nasty charge you are aiming our way, one I think we don't deserve.
Also, I would respectfully request that you reexamine the introduction to this post; our news tab records votes which all are able to cast, and this is the most popular/voted-on story in the last 24 hours. I think I was the only SM blogger who voted, which means ten of our regular, committed readers thought this story was significant. Not all of them are ABDs, some are DBDs...do you think they want to highlight what's bad about their motherland? Or is this a story which deserves to be discussed?
U were searching for a news item like this weren't you? Nothing like a good India bashing to welcome the new year eh?
U were searching for a news item like this weren't you? Nothing like a good India bashing to welcome the new year eh?
I dont think ANNA was doing that because if she was she would have posted this: Hindu extremists ransacked and burned eight rural churches in eastern India, marring Christmas celebrations in a corner of the country with a history of violence against Christians, officials said Wednesday.
Of course, the treatment of minorities in India is not a problem.
I really appreciate bringing this issue to light, and I'm a DBD. Casteism still exists in its most virulent form in many states back in India, though not all (for example interestingly in the commie states of Bengal and Kerala where caste issues crops up almost only during arranged marriage). Only way to eradicate this caste-based mindset is to educate future generations and provide better education to all (starting with primary then to higher, not other way round).
How is reporting significant news "bashing"? If such incidences are ignored, in the name of being "pc" or "cultural relativity", then how will any injustice in this world ever be eradicated?
Bengali brahmins of a religious nature are still some of the most orthodox people on the planet when it comes to this sort of thing.
Zuni, fixed.
p.s. next time, just page the intern. ;)
Lol! You guys think you'd eradicate caste discrimination in India by cribbing about it here in sepia mutiny. I don't know which dbds ur talking about, but most like me would be pretty irritated by this continuous peppering about issues we are more than aware of.
This is not a significant news item. Incidents like these happen so often that most go unreported as mundane. This story is a little more juicy as it is children who display the bigotry. Trust sepia mutiny to cash on.
I have visited this site enough to understand the amount of condescension that goes on here about India.
Caste bias is real in India, and for your information it occurs both ways. Institutional bias (reservations, political elections etc) as well as social prejudice (like this example). You'd have to treat both with equal detest else one set of people will end up feeling short changed.
Pagal aadmi, how is posting about 'Hindu' 'extremists' india bashing? Are you conflating India with Hindu? That story and the media spin on it is also 'interesting' to say the least.
Then why visit? If it's difficult for you to resist commenting, I can help.
intern...
shoo go away, if you have nothing interesting to say..
14 · spidy said
I think its fair to conflate India and Hindu is certain circumstances. Vast majority of Hindus are Indians and the vast majority of Indians are Hindus. I think all Hindus would be offended at insults against India simply because India is the source of Hinduism. India is the land Ram, Krishna, etc walked upon and even governed.
Similarly someone who is hateful of Hindus would probably hate India as well since so much of India is a product of immersed in Hinduism.
Fo example, when someone makes offensive remarks about the Ganges I am offended as an Indian and as a Hindu.
The parts of India that have the least amount of abuses against Dalits are areas where there is competition for labor. Forget about change in areas where agricultural labor is the only game in town.
While I would like to see the dominant ethos of India remain Dharmic (i.e. Hindu/Jain/Buddhist), the VHP types need to realize this is what drives people to convert (i.e. and not their bogus claims of coercion)
And I suppose writing about the New York slave-masters was America bashing.
If SM wants to "bash" people who perpetuate the caste system in India, I'm all for it. If they want to "bash" people who perpetuate racism in America, I'm all for it.
Son, this way you have to start hating the Indian media outlets and even BBC, the carry stories like this all the time, hell, we over at UD do the same (and thankfully we do not ged shoo'd).
Although I agree that it looks mundane, the aspect that caught my eye is the fact that we are talking about kids, kids who are supposed to be pure and unbiased. That changes everything.
Thanks for posting this! We need reminders continuously of this garbage that continues to go on in India. And I do think that change can happen if more and more people blog/talk about it. SM is great for it's varied issues - the good and bad it takes up - and that even though change is slow, and maybe to some dbds or abds this casteism happens all the time and is not significant....but it obviously is and thank goodness Sm continues to bring news like this to the forefront.
Right, not getting into a university is the same as having your hut torched and the women in your family assaulted. Which is as you implied "mundane" not newsworthy.
I agree in principle that reservation may not work or that it is abused by many historically privilged castes who lobby for "backward status", but comparing your lot in life with that of a Dalit is reprehensible
I'm not sure where people get the impression that kids are supposed to be little angels from. I know lots of kids, I work with kids, I was a kid not too long ago. Children are really little devils.
Kids are not "pure". Most children are very nasty and selfish and are incredibly mean towards each other. They also act as mirrors, reflecting back what is around them. These kids were taught to hate dalits by their parents.
JGandhi,
I think it is dangerous to conflate India with Hindu, when literally all the Sikhs and Jains, and the bulk of the Buddhists and the second largest collection of Muslims in the world call India their homeland. And after all the constitution has done to keep India a secular country.
This sort of feeling though, I must admit I suspect, is prevalent amongst a lot of people. It naturally places a burden of special treatment that must be accorded to certain groups to make them 'feel at home', and when such thinking pervades our polity, we are treading on dangerous grounds.
So we're supposed to just throw our hands up and stop paying attention, since, according to you, there's nothing that we can do here? Gee, excellent way of improving a society, I must say.
Making people aware that a problem exists or that discrimination exists is the first step in eradicating that discrimination. Should Phool Kumari Rawat be swept under the rug along with all the other victims of crimes and discrimination? Certainly not. Each and every one of them is entitled to have their story told, and spread to as many people as possible, so that it might either reach the ears of someone with the power to change their circumstances, or impel people to get that power, so that they can bring about change.
OK, I agree that issues like this need to be brought to the forefront. But we no longer live in the age of the salt march, the million man march, the anti-apartheid movement, etc. What can we really do to effect change? A Facebook petition?
Why does every post on Sepia have to turn into kid bashing?
Who were in turn taught by their parents whose behavior was reinforced by the pandits at the temple. I want to see a Hindu revival let's start by tossing out notions of ritual purity.
I think the dalits ought to start a mass movement in which they take on brahmin surnames. That ought to screw up the caste system a little bit.
Actually, students in IIT Kanpur tried something slightly different to the same end.
nala, I think posts and discussions on these topics could educate some people. For me, personally, it illuminates the variety of reactions to such issues that exist both among Indians in India and the diaspora - and I get to see an entire spectrum of responses that I could never hope to get from discussions with my mostly like-minded non-online friends. And that helps to modulate my own thoughts and actions on these issues.
The only problem with changing your name, or removing traces of your past identity, is that you aren't causing the establishment to accept you, even with your differences. Giving everyone the same identity won't help society learn to accept different groups. Look at Turkey. Ataturk tried to completely redefine Turkish society by completely secularizing it, and advocating the superiority of the secular, Turkish identity. Did it work as well as he thought it would? No. There are plenty of conflicts today over Muslim vs. secular, Kurds vs. Turks, etc. Homogenizing a society isn't likely to solve problems of discrimination.
I don't mean to trivialize what those students were doing. It's an excellent idea, that just might work. I just don't think that it will solve the greater problem of discrimination, in the long run.
33 · BlackCat said
I think it worked pretty damn well. Just compare Turkey to other Muslims countries, the difference is remarkable.
the truth is --that all of us readers here will wax eloquently about these injustices from the comfort of our well appointed homes; feel righteous indignation that we will never dream of inflicting such indignity; feel that we are doing our bit to effect change by writing a few lines on a blog ---and tomorrow this will be forgotten; and it will be on to commenting about the next topic--and this dalit woman will continue to lead her dalit life, forgotten completely by all of us within the span of a few days. i don't say this to criticize the readers here, just to say that this is simply what will happen.
There wasn't the same level of institutionalized secularism, at least, not compared to Kemalist policies. Possibly in pre-Revolution Iran, but even then, it wasn't even close, and large numbers of people didn't subscribe to it.
If you look at the news now, Turkey's been having plenty of problems with the issue of secularism, what with the PM and all, and with Kurdish rebels.
I don't think completely subsuming your original identity to a national identity or a more expansive one can work as a policy. For a few groups of people who are really dedicated to it, sure, but what about the nation as a whole?
Changing your surname is a noble idea (I have friends who refuse to carry a surname, all power to them), but I do believe that Indian society and polity is so stratified at all levels that at times it may be essential to belong to a group. At least it may ensure you some benefit that your group has been lobbying for.
Why else would Christian and Muslim Dalit converts cling on to their Dalit status, or the Adivasis of Assam agitate for the ST status?
Expecting society to abdicate prejudice without removing the incentives to belong to a caste or religious group may not produce desired outcomes. If the state treats all its citizens equally, then I believe prejudice could be overcome with education.
I do feel like I'm contributing something, by "writing a few lines". I know plenty of people who were born and raised here, who will probably never live in India and will visit it only a few times in their lifetime, who subtly engage in caste-related bullshit (and I'm not talking about TamBrahm girls bonding over their PTSD from menstruation-related matters, which is quite understandable).
Some of these people will read this post and think, "that's lame", because it's so extreme and obvious, what the school officials are putting this woman through. One person out of that group might one day have an epiphany about how it's not cool to diss non-Jats, because it's part of this same discrimination continuum. IF by some miracle this post helps bring about that epiphany, it was more than worth my time and energy.
It's really easy to sit back and sneer, and then tap-tap-tap on a keyboard about how people aren't "doing" anything. That just "talking" about something is pointless. I don't think raising awareness about an issue is pointless. AT all. I've learned that after almost four years here. Try and remember that posts affect different people in different ways, and that the vast majority of people here lurk and never comment. The loudest voices don't tell the entire story.
ANNA, thanks for thinking of me!
As for this post, I'm very glad we're discussing it. The mindless patriotism of people like tarta or spidey (are they different people?) and their utter unwillingness to look at India with an open, objective mind, is sad to say the least. To tarta and spidey let me say this, that India gets way too much positive, undeserved, overblown hype as it is...'India Shining' and all that...posts like this help ALL OF US to come back down to Earth and realise that there are a LOT of problems (social, economic, educational, political, etc) in that country. By no means has SM been anti-India or overly critical of India...go and look through the archives, all the posts and all the comments are there.
Where is the compassion? A woman for no fault of her own is boycotted, and about to lose her meagre livelihood, and you guys focus on so-called India bashing, and call this all 'mundane'. You guys are part of the problem.
I was reading India Today this week, the cover is about the head of the Communist Party (Prakash Karat)...and how he has blocked economic reforms as well as the nuclear deal...I think he (and his supporters) are India's public enemy #1. But the casteists are right there behind them.
One good thing about this story...at least it's getting noticed, getting media and political attention, getting an outraged response...whereas maybe 10 years ago it wouldn't have caused a ripple...that itself could be a sign of a changing India, and hope for the future.
You can change your name all you want...in India, people will always know who you are.
Reading the story over... I'm actually a little surprised that government schools (this is a government school, right?) are providing lunch in the first place. Back in my day we didn't get any of that even in private school.
Oh, so I am India's public enemy No 2. Lol!
You can insinuate what you like, but I ain't no casteist. I ain't no blind man either. I can see hypocrisy and patronization in all its forms.
amitabh, your comments just unfortunately show how little you know of india. i never did state that india doesnt have problems ---india has always had problems; there has been some progress in India over the last few years and there is finally something new here ---people who live here take pride in being indian, take pride in our free media and take pride in the fact that finally our voices can change things. i am an indian who lives in india; i live here and work here every day, i face prejudices every day; still i hope for better things and go on each day. to those of you who dont face things here on a daily basis, you will not understand that yes, we indians know all that is wrong, but we choose to be patriotic every day and each in our own small way, try to make oru lives better.
you sitting in the US, smugly critising me, arent really the person to lecture me on indian life and society.
That makes it sound like trying to improve your society and being patriotic are mutually exclusive. Surely trying to better your surroundings or improve conditions for your countrymen is one of the most patriotic actions a person can undertake.
tarta and spidey, you guys decided to focus on the highlighting of the problem rather than the problem itself...how does that help anything or even further the discussion? You didn't offer any insights on the topic at hand, or any food for thought, you just protested the anti-India slant that you perceive. Oh well yes, you did let us know that this topic is mundane and unworthy of consideration. Thanks for that!
You people living in India have a valid perspective on things happening in India, and certainly know a lot more about day to day life there and surviving in that country than I do. And I don't think I'm smugly criticising you. But you've deflected this conversation away from the main point...which is what this dalit woman is going through for no reason, other than the horrible prejudices of the local people in that part of India. I wasn't calling you casteist...but wouldn't you agree that part of the reason for the economic misery and grinding poverty in India and especially the Hindi belt is the rampant casteism? I'm not saying so-called upper caste people should marry dalits or party with them or anything if they don't want...but how about some basic humane treatment? Why the cruelty? And why does it bug you if this is talked about?
44 · Amitabh said
That is the idea. It's an act of defiance and elaborate prank rolled into one. They are just trying to knock down the marquee value of these highfaluting names and having a good laugh while they're at it.
tarta... here are some questions for you. Have you ever volunteered for the poorer people or some special cause in India in some NGO ? Have you contributed to some charities any significant amount of money ? Really, truthfully, have you ? Just living in India does not do enough to proclaim that you are making any positive change while the other aren't. There are a lot of Indians living abroad, who save money while struggling to end meets (e.g. grad students), but still send money home to India AND donate to charities or volunteer for special cause. There are people I know who are brought up here but volunteer for years in India to work with the underprivileged. And how many Indians residing in India (and who are wealthy) donate ANY time for charity ? I am really genuinely curious.
I am just sick of TOI and other media only highlighting 'India shining' issues, and not covering other issues. I am genuinely proud that so many good things are happening in India but I want even better things to happen, so why not discuss where we can, and then do something about it.
In the current context, as louiecypher said, it's probably the other way around, poverty (still in agricultural mode)-->continuation of casteism. Though the thing that always strikes me about casteism is how inefficient it is in an economic sense. Indians need to get their priorities straight, we are the O[M]Gs (original money-grubbers) after all.
The midday meal scheme was introduced as an incentive for poor parents to send their kids to school, instead of having them till the fields or whatever.
This is the thing...there is a TON of potential money to be made in the rural areas...it's a huge potential market...once its dynamism is unleashed...but the infrastructural bottlenecks are so severe that even risk-loving capitalism hasn't dared to really venture there...and casteism is one of the bottlenecks. It destroys a lot of social capital.
It occurs to me that maybe this didn't happen DESPITE Mayawati...maybe it happened BECAUSE of her. Brahmins and Rajputs feel threatened by the recent social and political changes, and in this particular instance, reacted by taking it out on a poor local dalit woman. Maybe this is a symptom of a deeper underlying anxiety on the part of the upper castes.
I know so many ABDs who volunteer in India and who genuinely feel an affinity to the 'motherland.' On the other hand, sometimes I feel that the 'volunteering in India' (or anywhere else) is just a resume booster. My parents have friends who have contributed to the development of their ancestral villages in recent years, really simple things too, like a well or a roof for the local school. On the other hand there are ABDs who are pretty ignorant about South Asia and have a very negative view of it and everything associated with it and do as much as possible to distance themselves from it, lest they be associated with it.
Charity in India happens almost in the opposite way that it does in America. In New York I've seen people brush by the homeless guy on the street while wearing pearls and Brooks Brothers suits on their way to a charity ball. In Hyderabad I see people hem and haw when asked to donate money to some NGO, but who will provide food and shelter for a night to a homeless man.
it is indeed interesting how several of you spew venoumous comments. i didnt for a moment say that any of these problems are mundane(that was someone else, spidey i think--don't confuse me with him) ---you simply dont know much about this except one or two things you read here and there. if you pause to think for a moment, you are taking the focus away from the topic to criticising me for i dare to say that i am proud, despite all the things i know are wrong in my country.
amitabh--do you realize how condescending you are when you say "you people" have a "valid perspective"? i dont know what life in america is like, i do know that when some of "you people" who are born and raised in america come here, you look down upon the dirt, the crowds, the poverty, the "uncoolness" of it all. you are lucky for you are privileged.
fyi--i am so called "lower caste".
for zuni, who asked me whether i donate money to charity --does giving a few rupees to my local leprosy home count? i dont make that much money when you see salaries in india are; that is all i can spare. i am saving all my money to buy a home some day--with real estate prices what they are, i dont think it will ever happen.
the truth is --money talks. the rich dalits are doing just fine, they walk into the best government colleges and then government jobs based on the "quota system". it is only the poor who suffer--the poor brahmins are doing much better either --they have to eke out a living too.
you and i can talk all we want, you can feel superior to me when you critize me with your knee-jerk responses to the things i say --discrimnation exists in my society (as it probably does in yours) --but it much better than it was 10 years ago--for the "india shining" has given a lot of young people who dont have an education get jobs --salespeople in fancy malls etc etc --and it is only economic development which can effect change.
Wow, that makes this even worse then, if it's poor but higher-caste people encouraging children to ostracize this woman. Though it also makes it somewhat more understandable, especially w.r.t. Amitabh's point about caste anxieties following Mayawati's election.
Amitabh,
I made it already clear as to why i chose to highlight the aspect of post that you feel very uncomfortable about. I won't bother repeating it. As to providing insights, either you selectively read my comments, or the point(s) i made are not worthy of your consideration. Still work is little slow around here and I had some time..
I believe that we all care about India and do want to see it better, but I have a gripe against aspects of your approach. Anyway, if smintern has his/her way I expect my days commenting here to be numbered, so no more of my 'India Shining' sloganeering thankfully for everyone.
zuni,
Are you suggesting that all voluntary work and funding for NGOs in India come from the Indian diaspora, or enlightened indian graduate students in America? And the only way to work for India's poor and downtrodden is by affiliating oneself to an NGO?
and by the way zuni --some of these NGOs are all talk and no action. any more smugly critical questions?
it is so clear that so many of you are people who are born and raised in america who havent the foggiest what daily life in india is all about --you probably wouldnt be able to enjoy living in india without the creature comforts you enjoy in america , but you feel well qualified to comment endlessly based on a few random newspaper articles and moreover, criticize someone who actually lives all this on a daily basis.
Bengali brahmins of a religious nature are still some of the most orthodox people on the planet when it comes to this sort of thing.
Every Brahmin group claims that they are the most orthodox and so on. I thought that Hindus and Brahmins, especially, should never eat meat? Bengali Brahmins eat fish quite a bit. How is this orthodox within a Hindu frame of reference?
South Indian Brahmins also claim to be the most orthodox, the most pure. Of course, Kashmiris are supposed to be pure and untouched by "lesser races". Please check one of my recent posts regarding the Kashmiri Brahmin's view of themselves.
17 JGandhi said
Can you elaborate on what sort of remarks about the Ganges you consider offensive and what in those remarks offends you (as an Indian and an Hindu)?
I do have to say though, there aren't many wealthy people in India compared to the percentage of extremely wealthy Indians among the diaspora. Unless the Sabeer Bhatias and Vinod Khoslas of the world pull a Gautama on us, I don't think it is fair to insinuate that Indians-in-India are somehow morally less decent when they are either simply trying to get by/aspiring to a better life, as most people do.
tarta(#57)...Fine, say that then. I'm not being condescending, and you make some good points. This is a complicated and nuanced topic. My only objection was to your dismissing it and thinking of it as India bashing.
Who was lecturing you? Why take everything so personally? No country is perfect and, as far as I'm concerned, it's better to bring attention to the imperfections than gloss over them.
But American desis just can't win.
America-based desi: "The caste system in India is terrible."
India-based desi: "Hey, who are you to lecture us about the caste system, sitting smugly in the U.S.?"
America-based desi: "America is too wasteful. Look how much food goes into the trash!"
White American: "Hey, if you don't like America, go back to India!"
Tarta: I respect your donation to wherever you give, given the day to day struggles. I know the struggles of Indian day to day life. I have done so before and intend to go back to fight it out. My questions were mainly because I have come across many fellow Indians who say that they are doing something just by living in India, and doing nothing else.
Spidey: as far as I know, yes, funding for many many NGOs in India come primarily from the Indian diaspora. And no, I don't mean the only way to work for India's poor and downtrodden is by affiliating oneself to an NGO. That was part of a question. But just doing nothing doesn't do anything either.
lol. I really feel for you American Desis!
I'm sorry, but this is weak. Has anyone actually ever told you to go back to India because you made such a statement? There are many white people in the U.S. who also note how much food is wasted, and they may get the same 'anti-American' insinuation from such reactionaries, perhaps peppered with, 'If you don't like it, why don't you move to France?' IMO, the former example is a legitimate criticism, the latter isn't, and to conflate the two is seriously stretching it.
I guess my point is, count your blessings.
They are though. They're contributing to the Indian economy.
I think everyone needs to chill just a little bit if this thread is meant to stay open. Far too much umbrage, nowhere near enough thoughtful discussion.
A slow news rolls around and Anna and company at SM troll the news for India articles. ABD's are simply not qualified and don't have the right to comment on Indian affairs. American sanctimonious preaching is irritating at best, dangerous at worst (see Iraq), and when it comes from American desis it's both. Mind your own business, please, unless you are willing to live in India and walk in our shoes for 5 years. One would've thought your Iraqi experiences would have temporarily curbed your urge to morally police the rest of the world, but apparently not.
Yes, we in India love our caste system and love getting up in the morning looking for victims to discriminate. And we've got nukes to defend our ruthless oppression, so pulling an Iraq here won't be quite as simple. Deal with it /sarc.
Well, not exactly for criticizing wastefulness, but for criticizing other things. I've been told to go back to India several times. (By people responding to my columns in other media/forums.)
Should be "slow news day rolls around".
Anna, I think you should post an outraged article about the VHP attacking churches on Xmas. That'd also be a juicy post, bound to get hundreds of comments. Just let's not let you propagate the idea taht your posting such articles is meant to change things in India. An American sitting in America can have nothing but Iraq-style motivations when posting such articles.
Except Punjabi brahmins. They admit that 1000 or more years of Muslim (and to some extent Sikh) cultural and numerical dominance of Punjab turned them into little more than fortune-tellers and palm-readers...as well as performers of simple rituals for weddings and so on that they themselves couln't even understand or explain. Plus the fact that Jatts, not Brahmins, are at the top of the social heap. I think it is telling that Punjab is the only region that doesn't have its own vernacular (i.e. Punjabi language) versions of the Mahabharat and Ramayan (although the stories themselves remained popular, well-known, and relevant). The Punjabi epics all deal with (nominally) Muslim lovers. However the rather negative influence of the brahmins in terms of keeping brahminical norms and values alive in society remained quite strong. On the positive side, they probably did keep the Hindu community from vanishing completely or being aborbed fully into other folds...which the Kashmiri brahmins could not do in Kashmir.
I am surprised the official is not yet sacked, discrimination against dalits has landed a lot of UP officials in trouble. But this kind of discrimination is not unusual in hinterland. More shocking revelations here.
http://indiatogether.org/2007/dec/soc-caste.htm
In some sense the best thing to happen in UP in years was the election of Mayawati as CM. Now at least the official machinery tries to protect the dalits, the civil society has a long way to go though.
That sucks, especially if you were actually born in the U.S. The point I was making, though, is that 'Go back to India' is such a ridiculous reactionary racist statement that actually has no grounding, especially if you are American born and bred, but 'You don't know what it's like living in India' is a legitimate criticism when people are speaking about India, because you (generally speaking) really don't know what it's like.
Anna
Awareness is laudable, but frankly, there is a good chance that you might be spreading misinformation -- and in a highly charged issue like caste, why not wait until all the facts are clear in this case.
The facts I have seen so far:
1) There were complaints against Ms. Rawat's quality of cooking and a boycott of her cooking.
2) Officials tried to palatcate the students, but did not succeed
3) As per the District Magistrate subsequent inquiries found that the quality was substandard.
4) Ms. Rawat had no experience with cooking as a profession prior to this job.
5) Ms. Rawat is a widw who belongs to the SC/ST class
6) On being interviewed some students have said that the quality of food was bad while others statements indicate that the caste
7) Ms Rawat was sacked
8) Ms Rawat will be replaced by a another widow of the same caste.
This rest are just people pushing one agenda or the other (incidentallym after I noticed that it was 3rd party reporting I read the original articles to note the tone, read the wesites "further reading" and noticed that there was a strong bias in the reprting)
Based on this we could just as easily say that Ms. Rawats bad cooking led to her being fired and reinforced prejudices against the culinary abilities of SC/STs.
BTW, I might be reading too much into it, but given that you quoted so much from the article, did you delibrately omit "district magistrate, Chandra Bhanu, said: "We have inquired and found that the poor quality of food is a fact. So we will try to concentrate on that issue and find a person who can make better quality food for the children.", or was it a omission that just happened to go against the "progressive" narative of the article.
[Ed. Note: You are reading too much in to it and by doing so, making insinuations which don't further the discussion. No deliberate omission was made.]
That's a crazily over-the top-comment--I, for one, can comment about anything I please, thank you very much. You obviously don't mean legal right, so what's your moral theory for when person A(BD) has the "right" to comment on social practice D? The "5-year" requirement you mention seems pretty makeweight if you conceive of persons as free and equal.
Tarta, is capitalism helping alleviate casteism at all from your understanding? And isn't discrimination present within the dalit community too?
Read something on the BBC (an outside source admittedly, but the journalist, a food writer, practically stumbled upon the politics over food) a few months ago that made me wonder:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/cooking_in_the_danger_zone/6551389.stm//
You are right about not non-residents not having a sense of the street. I give you that. So perhaps you can enlighten any positives that may have emerged over the past few years in the battle against casteism (if one indeed exists), and whether there appears to be reasonable way out.
That said, it is troubling when a stance is taken against a lady attacking her "uncleanliness." Perhaps these incidents happen less often, but that doesn't mean a person who lives off the street doesn't have the right to queston or condemn it. Protesting shoddy curry, I understand. Protesting an "impure" chef, quite another. It doesn't matter where such incidents take place. It's just ethically unsound. And cruel. But that's the perspective of a voyeur.
47 · tarta said
This statement is very interesting, that arises time and again when nations deal with other nations and there is a conflict to be resolved. For e.g. Musharraf makes a very similar statement in a recent interview - "The problem with the West is that you want the developing world to do everything that you wish and desire. Are we that incapable? Are we that small? This is not a banana republic..."
In fact this attitude probably arise humans deal with other humans. Wonder how to deal with such situations ?
wow, i wish i could say i wasn't surprised by all the hating on guess-whose-post. oh well. two points
1) economics matters. social context matters. i think wealth creation is the #1 way that caste will no longer be bar. when people can be proud of their "f*ck you!" money they won't have to swagger about how they are pure-orthodox-brahmins/rajputs/jatts/etc. etc.
2) since i've started talking to and communicating with other american brownz i have been a bit surprised that a minority of those born & raised here are quite proud of their caste lineage. theoretically some of these could be punctilious in continuing their religious-cultural traditions, but the vast majority are just expressing ethnic pride. e.g., "i'm a kashmiri pandit, so my blood is pure and our women aren't ugly kalas like in bengal or tamil nadu." or, "i'm a tambram, so i knew how to integrate by parts when i was 3, it is in our nature." or, "i'm a christian/ismaili, but our ancestors were brahmin." or, "i'm muslim, but our ancestors weren't converts, we came from persia/arabia/turkestan." this is normal, like some white americans bragging about how they are descended from the bourbon dynasty. but, remember people that bragging about your people or your ancestors will often just highlight that you have little to brag about as an individual.
p.s. i hate india.
Uhhh...how is Pakistan not a banana republic?
69 · nala said
How is this a legitimate criticism? Why can't I make an equivalently ridiculous criticism - How can you comment on my understanding of the issue as an Indian living in America when you have spent all your life in India?
If everybody can only talk about their own experience, there will be absolutely no basis to discuss a large number of issues. Dismissing somebody's criticisms purely because they haven't walked in your shoes is just another type of ad hominem argument. If you believe the person is misinformed or that their argument misrepresents the situation, that should be a simple enough point to make.
Dizzy Desi, the post does mention that even Mrs. Rawat admits that her cooking isn't all that, but there is enough surrounding information, especially the selective boycott of her cooking, to suspect non culinary factors in the decision.
Dharna: "A fast conducted at the door of an offender, especially a debtor, in India as a means of obtaining compliance with a demand for justice, such as payment of a debt.[Bartleby, but not the scrivener]"
Did anyone else instantly recall HBO's Rome series and the scene where Servila goes on what can only now be called a dharna at Atia's doorsteps, mournfully calling out: "Atia of the Julii, I call for justice." ?
83 · razib said
Once lower castes start making more money, the upper castes may lose their power to oppress. But I imagine that as wealth disparity increases in India (propelled by wealth creation), high-caste poor people will cling evermore tightly to their caste identities.
If caste identity does weaken I think it will do so India urbanizes and populations are dislocated. Does anybody in Mumbai know or care about the caste of some guy riding in from UP? Also its much more difficult to maintain caste purity in urban areas.
Perhaps the best way to eliminate castes is to make the caste system sound uncool. Young ABDs who brag about their castes sound like dorks (jatts are an inexplicable exception)and most ABDs tend to ignore it.
69 · someone said
congrats #69 for the comment of the day! you caught us. your witty exposé uncovered "anna and company's" secret ploy to troll teh news for the worst possible news on india.
but, in keeping to the fairness of your critique - hush on the whole iraq thing, eh? and for that matter, and foreign policy decision made from the states. this is in keeping with the whole qualifications and rights thing, natch.
anyway, puppies in the next post - let's do our best not to kick.
"but, in keeping to the fairness of your critique - hush on the whole iraq thing, eh? and for that matter, and foreign policy decision made from the states. this is in keeping with the whole qualifications and rights thing, natch."
FYI, America invading Iraq is an international matter, howmuchever Americans may wish to convey the impression that Iraq has always been a state of the union.
. But I imagine that as wealth disparity increases in India (propelled by wealth creation), high-caste poor people will cling evermore tightly to their caste identities.
perhaps, but appeal to the class of birth as opposed to the class of attainment are weak tea and the refuge of the desperate ;-)
Only Americans, Iraqis, and actual deployed soldiers belonging to the coalition of the willing are allowed to talk about it.
I mean that comparatively when it comes to the criticisms lobbed at ABDs that Seahawks Fan pointed out-'Go back to India!' vs. 'You don't know what it's like to live in India'-the former has no grounding and is simply racist, but the latter obviously has some grounding, because ABDs simply literally don't know what it's like to live in India. Frankly I just find this to be a ridiculous complaint, but then I'm someone who thinks that rich people should generally just live it up and while doing so, shut the f*ck up. This is not to say that ABDs aren't allowed to criticize anything about India, obviously they are, but some commenters felt that the perspective provided here is biased, especially when they were alleged to be a-OK with casteism. And let's not pretend that there aren't some really ignorant and frankly, racist, ABDs out there. I haven't spent my entire life in India BTW, more like 44% of it so far, though that percentage will most likely decrease as the years go by.
Karthik,
"Although I agree that it looks mundane, the aspect that caught my eye is the fact that we are talking about kids, kids who are supposed to be pure and unbiased. That changes everything."
If kids "who are supposed to be pure and unbiased" were left without adult supervision, even in Freedomland USA, you wouldn't have even hospitals to deal with the situation. Kids in their feral state are monsters and it takes years of schooling and parenting to get them to not beat each other to death (boys) or drive each other to suicide (girls). I'd always prefer collegiate adults to sophomoric children. For every one Dick Cheney in adulthood, there are a thousand kids who entertain themselves setting fire to live cats and dogs.
when it comes to high-caste poor people in india, it is desperate, but that desperation is also partly b/c they simply don't have as many means to attainment as they optimally would.
JGandhi
I would imagine that with increased wealth creation oppurtunities in India, people would be foolish to waste their energy in propogating or heeding to caste divisions.
You are correct in that lower castes lend themselves to opression primarily because inspite of a large headcount, they are economic underweights, similar to what India was a few decades back. Things are changing now and the reasons are not philantrophic or social, but economic.
There is a nice parallel of how Indians have been and are currently perceived in the world order, and in the Indian caste scenario.
someone @ 85: iraq fair game? really? and india's stake is?
what i'm driving at is the unfortunate dead end we find ourselves at when we're not having a fruitful dialogue on ills, woes and solutions.we're all in each others mess - for better or worse - and whatever connection we maintain with the motherland is done out of sincere interest for the well being of all within (including those we're not qualified to discuss.)
I gave a warning, so we would not need to close this thread. Many of the people who indicated their interest in this story by voting on it haven't had the opportunity to read it yet.
Your urge to be petty and unfair exceeded your ability to control yourselves and behave courteously. Time to close, though it is unfair that a few determined hecklers ruined it for all.