I'm not sure what's up with Indians and Hitler. Telugu megastar Chiranjeevi had a film named Hitler, based on a Malayalam film of the same name. He also came out with a film titled Stalin last year. Neither of them have anything to do with Hitler or Stalin; his film titled 'Tagore' had nothing to do with Bengalis either.

Was your mother/her family expelled from Uganda in 1972?

Mein Kampf is sold at every outdoor book stall in Delhi. I asked "Who is buying these ?", the response was European backpackers (the books is illegal in much of Europe I believe) and some Indians. Indians are poorly educated about the Holocaust. When they say "He is like a Hitler", they mean a strong willed autocrat rather than a racist, evil mass murderer. Disturbing and another sign of substandard education even at the secondary schools that turn out successful engineering and science bound graduates

Indians are poorly educated about the Holocaust. When they say "He is like a Hitler", they mean a strong willed autocrat rather than a racist, evil mass murderer. Disturbing and another sign of substandard education even at the secondary schools that turn out successful engineering and science bound graduates

Well this true of people of other nationalities too, who will say anyone they don't like is akin to Hitler (see: infantile American liberals likening Bush to Hitler). Though I agree with you that there isn't enough of an emphasis on a more 'well-rounded' education in India. But I read an article recently about Delhi secondary schools offering more classes in history and political science, encouraging debate, and so on. I'll have to search for it.

In 8th grade I had a teacher who praised Hitler by saying, while discussing German geography, "This is where that great soldier, who tried to win back his country from the British and the Americans, was from." I also remember Hitler being praised in a (Bengali) biography of Subhas Chandra Bose. I didn't even know what the Holocaust was till I saw Schindler's List, and understood what it truly was only after coming to the US.

Hitler's image in India is closer to Napoleon or Genghis Khan compared to the Satanic image he holds in Europe and America. A man who set out to rule the world but fell short of his ultimate goal.
I was in India last summer when someone opened a restaurant called the "Hitler cafe" in Mumbai. There was a picture in the paper of two people sitting in the restaurant with all sorts of Nazi insignia everywhere. No hint of controversy until a couple of days later when the news spread to the western media. I don't remember what ended up happening but the readers comments were ambivalent about whether it was in poor taste (sic).

Nala: You make a good point. But what I am saying is that it is often a compliment in India. For example, if a cop chases out criminal elements using strong arm/illegal tactics people will say "He is like a Hitler only". This is said approvingly...they would absolutely not make the comparison if they knew what Hitler did. The Western Left on the other hand knows what Hitler did and chooses, without reason IMHO, to draw the comparison with Bush over Iraq

What people have said. I don't think there is anything wrong with Mein Kampf being sold in bookstores, but people truly do not have a conception of the horror of the holocaust and having politicos name their kids Stalin and Lenin does not raise even an eyebrow in India. I remember the Amar Chitra Katha on Bose describing his alignment with Hitler's Germany with nary a hint of disapproval, and the descriptions of the communist revolution and Soviet Russia in history textbooks are ridiculously sugarcoated as a legacy of decades of "non alignment".

That said, there is at least a greater coverage of the broad sweep of world history than in the U.S. educational system.

But what I am saying is that it is often a compliment in India. For example, if a cop chases out criminal elements using strong arm/illegal tactics people will say "He is like a Hitler only". This is said approvingly...they would absolutely not make the comparison if they knew what Hitler did.

Hahaha. I wonder if this is sort of like 'Engrish.'

That said, there is at least a greater coverage of the broad sweep of world history than in the U.S. educational system.

Really? Perhaps my perspective is biased since I went to a really good public high school, but it seems to me that if so many people don't recognize the historical significance of Hitler, there is something missing.

Disturbing and another sign of substandard education even at the secondary schools that turn out successful engineering and science bound graduates

My experience has been other way around because I have found that historical knowledge of most westerners greatly lacking in anything that didn't include europe/middle east. For example one might have heard about the Irish famine but not how Britain contributed to the Bengal famine in which millions died. Mesopotamia is known but nothing about indus valley civilization. While Indian education is really lacking in ways to creatively stimulate the mind, there is no dearth of information to be crammed in the mind of the young ones.

That said, there is at least a greater coverage of the broad sweep of world history than in the U.S. educational system.

I agree with this to an extent. The Indian syllabus is uniform and broader than what most US high schools offer. But most Indian government schools are dysfunctional, the teachers are often AWOL. Secondly, history is an after thought even in functional schools. Just "mug" for the exam and let it all out afterwards. Economic realities mean that history is for the wealthy "St. Stephens" crowd

The text books as such do a definitive job to tell that under Hitler millions of Jews were killed, that Japanese bombed the pearl harbour and also that America nuked Japan. They also talk 'more' dissapproving of the Hiroshima&Nagasaki than Pearl harbour, but thats about it.

Also, talking about well roundedness (and learning history perse), Indian students have an obligation to learn about their own history and inspite of that we do learn Alexander (the mof*in great), Mayans, Incans, American, European etc while also learning about Mughals, Chandragupta, Ashoka (Kalinga kingdom), Satavahanas, Chalukyas, Kanishkas, Vijainagar empire, Kakatiyas...and this list goes on.

Really? Perhaps my perspective is biased since I went to a really good public high school, but it seems to me that if so many people don't recognize the historical significance of Hitler, there is something missing.

Not disputing that in the least, but world history is more than just Western history.

louiecypher:

But most Indian government schools are dysfunctional, the teachers are often AWOL.

I wanted to reply to you saying the same as what you said, but you said it before. Yes, the textbooks/courses are well balanced, but its the teachers who doesnt do their job. Especially the government teachers. It is quite shameful to relate how they skip their classes and make their students attend to 'private' tuitions (talk about "working from home" back in the 80's). All they are ever worried is about the district eduction officer (DEO) making a surprise visit to the school. They used to have the clerks who work in the main office on their 'payroll' to get a tip off...

I'm guessing that a lot of the Hitler neutrality or ignorance initially arose out of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach. I'm guessing that WWII is seen in India as the battle between empires rather than an ideological battle and I believe that there is fair bit of merit to that view (anyone with a solid grasp of U.S. history knows that it wasn't the rumours of the Holocaust that propelled the U.S. into war and there were a good number of U.S. leaders (John-John's grampa for one) who were impressed with Hitler's achievments and at the very least indifferent to what we these days in the West consider his failings). So, from the general Indian perspective, not so much a direct impact issue as colonialism, imperialism etc. And since the Germans never colonized India...

I'm sensing that the Holocaust in India has about the same or slightly more awareness as the Armenian genocide does over here--sort of a tsking "but what does that have to do with me?" view.

While Indian education is really lacking in ways to creatively stimulate the mind, there is no dearth of information to be crammed in the mind of the young ones.

Yes, this is the big problem. History is taught in India as an immutable collection of facts, rather than what it is: an inferred narrative in the light of the values and messages that are dominant in a society. This leads to a rather poor understanding of the complex factors and interactions that really determine the course of history, while still knowing that the third battle of Panipat was fought in 1761, and that Kenya elected its first president in 1964.

Very funny, Abhi.

Indeed that bat qualifies as a figurative skeleton in the closet (or the basement). But your suspicion of Hitter morphing into Hitler by a poor speller is entirely plausible. Don't throw away that bat. It's an heirloom due either to its sinister implication or in its freak value like a misprinted postage stamp. As many have pointed out before me, Hitler's image is indeed quite a bit more benevolent in India than in Europe or the US. The nickname of an older relative of mine is Hitler. His Bengali parents were fervent Indian nationalist and a fan of "Netaji" Subhas Bose. They lovingly bestowed the name on their son during WWII when Netaji attempted to strike an alliance with Hitler as a tactic to weaken the British Raj. The fact that the son grew up to be a communist activist and a fervent anti-fascist in his adulthood was another ironic twist in the saga of weird nomenclature.

My husband is not quite as bad as Yo Dad. In fact he is quite merciless with the kids' childhood toys. A couple of years ago he threw out some priceless (in my opinion) Nintendo games including all three Super Mario Brothers. I was able to salvage the Tetris, thankfully. His weakness happens to be paperwork - decades old insurance and utilities bills, check books, travel receits, science papers and out of date text books. I would love some help with cleaning parts of my home of this detritus. I was thinking now that you live in the same town as me ... etc.

Rahul:

rather than what it is: an inferred narrative in the light of the values and messages that are dominant in a society

In a complex and diverse country like India, it would be impossible to offer an inferred narrative. I'd rather keep it way it is - history as it happened. Beat it around the dates and place and the leaders.

Its not like I havent been accused of not being well rounded enough to not know any MJ's songs. I was busy with Chiru and Rajni(who)cant's songs.

In a complex and diverse country like India, it would be impossible to offer an inferred narrative... I'd rather keep it way it is - history as it happened. Beat it around the dates and place and the leaders.

This misses the point. History textbooks in India are not objective by any stretch of the imagination. The facts in India are presented exactly as the existing norms in India see fit: examples are the descriptions of China without really describing Mao's atrocities during the cultural revolution, Stalin's gulags, Indira Gandhi's emergency, or even the Kashmir fiasco during independence. Of course, I quote the last one only as an extreme - I don't think it is reasonable to expect objectivity on such a lightning rod of a subject, just as the narratives about the original pilgrims soft pedal the entire Native American issue.

No history education will be complete or unbiased, but an education that presents it as a combination of facts and interpretation will make its recipients more willing and capable of absorbing new facts and information. Not to mention that it makes history much more lively and exciting.

In a complex and diverse country like India, it would be impossible to offer an inferred narrative. I'd rather keep it way it is - history as it happened. Beat it around the dates and place and the leaders.

Especially if inferred in the 'Fox'-way: verrry fair and balanced ;). Historical dates might be confusing, but I also prefer hard facts rather than history being tinted by views/beliefs of different religion/civilization/culture.

I will take you straight to the good stuff. First, check out these two cricket bats. I remember they were purchased on a trip to India in 1982/3 in Ahmedabad (I was ~7). Notice anything shocking on one of them?

Indeed I do. I'm shocked, shocked that anyone would advertise Gavaskar as a captain in 1982/3, given his boring record as captain.

Also, I can find no reason for Hitler's name to be on a cricket bat. Hitler is said to have hated the game so much that he apparently had the German cricket team executed. Yes, that is a made-up story.

In Pakistan I've seen Hitler used as slang for someone who is dominating. 'Hitler ha wo'.

Hitler bats. My assumption is that some cheap batmaker thought of the word hit, and on a play on words thought of Hitler and the thinking was it conveyed a mean image for a tough batter. So Hitler. I lived in India too despite being an ABD and the perception even among those who knew he was a bad guy was that he was a mean but famous dictator who was accomplished in something. I dont think many view him as a good guy. I just dont think the extent of the horrors of the Nazi regime has sunk in. While it is an indictment of the Indian arrogance that their educated get a more accomplished education than Americans, I dont think Westerners are in a position to laugh at them because many in the West are ignorant of Indian things too.

But the Bose collaboration with Hitler, in my view, is not to be condemned. The US and UK have allied with just as despicable people as Hitler to further their needs. Bose was desperate. Can anyone blaming him name a single other country that he could have gone to?

I just finsihed reading Jhumpa Lahiri's story in the NYer about a Indian returning to his parents home and exploring the basement. Now this...

Abhi, I found this post a pleasant surpise, really helps the DBDs to "see" your parents, which we probably have much in common with.

Why would a child’s cricket bat say Hitler on it

A C. B. Fry bat ?

Charles Burgess Fry (25 April 1872 – 7 September 1956) was an English polymath; an outstanding sportsman, politician, teacher, writer, editor and publisher. In 1934, he met Adolf Hitler and was mesmerised by him. He failed to persuade von Ribbentrop that Nazi Germany should take up cricket to Test level, but some Hitler Youth were welcomed at the Mercury training ship and Fry was still expressing enthusiasm for them in 1938. link

But the Bose collaboration with Hitler, in my view, is not to be condemned.

I think Bose and the INA were good people, but I am happy they lost. Mein Kampf has some specific language about Indians and from what I recall Hitler, who was an Anglophile in some weird pan-Germanic way, stated that India benefited from Brit rule. I also believe he stated that his rule would be more harsh than the Brits should he come to control India. I am not sure what the Germans ,who were reaching out to Indians, did to quell the skepticism I am sure Bose and others felt about the hand being offered to them. I guess at the end of the day, inequality and insult during the Raj left a stronger impression for the INA partisans than a book that was speaking in hypotheticals vis a vis Indians. Interestingly the Left will talk about philosophical connections between the Hindu Nationalists of that time and the Nazis, but it was the Communists who took the bait

Here is a relevant quote from Mein Kampf:

"England will never lose India unless she admits
racial disruption in the machinery of her administration (which at
present is entirely out of the question in India) or unless she is
overcome by the sword of some powerful enemy. But Indian risings will
never bring this about. We Germans have had sufficient experience to
know how hard it is to coerce England. And, apart from all this, I as a
German would far rather see India under British domination than under
that of any other nation."

Interesting. Winston Churchill evokes revulsion in me for doing nothing to stop the Bengal Famine of 1943 and in fact it was his government's policy to export food for use by Allied troops while the natives starved. 2.5 million people died in that famine.

Should I be positively appalled that the west seems to adore the man?

Hitler seems to be pretty popular in India. There was a poll done in India of students in the top colleges in either Delhi or India. They were questioned on who was their ideal leader.
The number one person on their list was Adolf Hitler. ( Gandhi was No.3)

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-02/20d'souza_.cfm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1658/is_200310/ai_n9171786
http://www.thejewishweek.com/top/editletcontent.php3?artid=2951
http://www.harpers.org/HarpersIndex2003-09.html

I am presuming these are the same people who tell us that there is nothing wrong in voting for Modi because he has attracted a lot of foreign investment.

Hitler seems to be pretty popular in India. There was a poll done in India of students in the top colleges in either Delhi or India. They were questioned on who was their ideal leader. The number one person on their list was Adolf Hitler. ( Gandhi was No.3)

Not completely true per the stats that you link to. Read it again and you will find:
a) Gandhi #1 at 23%
b) Hitler at #3 at 17%

I agree that its disturbing, but we've already established that most Indians don't have much knowledge about the Holocaust.

Maybe the bat is just supposed to be incredibly scary? Bad idea.

I'm glad you found Bearhug, Abhi! My Tickly is safe on a bookshelf in my parents house.

I won’t bore you with descriptions of 20-year-old used shower curtains or “Indian luggage bags” filled with spiders.

Heh.

I agree that its disturbing, but we've already established that most Indians don't have much knowledge about the Holocaust.

I am not so sure about that. There is a lot of love in India for strong leaders (see the Modi re-election).
The butchers of both Delhi and Gujarat did get re-elected.

Good point Saheli--how could I have overlooked Bearhug? He's no Mr. Bear, but he's still pretty awesome.

louiecypher:
Bose felt very humiliated by the reception he was meted out by the Nazis. Third Reich's racist philosophy was more important to them than any "the enemy of my enemy" tactical consideration. Remember Bose eventually turned to Japan where he was welcome. I have met older Japanese men during my travels in Japan who have approached me and spoken excitedly about Bose and Tagore.

As for the INA, it is comforting now to remember (especially for the west) that Gandhiji's non-violent non-cooperation was the only political opposition against the British Raj. The fact is that the INA enjoyed almost an equal level of respect and support among the Indian citizenry. Among my parents' generation there were quite a few INA veterans whom I met as a young girl. They were respected as much as those who marched with Gandhi. Even many Gandhians (not Gandhi though) saw the INA as a legitimate, albeit misguided, arm of the Indian freedom movement. At the famoust Red Fort Trial of Colonel Prem Sehgal, Colonel Gurubaksh Singh Dhillon and Major General Shah Nawaz Khan, there was enormous outpouring of public sympathy for the defendants. The protest marches and threats of riots prevented the British from carrying out the sentence of deportation. One of the attorneys defending the INA Three was Jawaharlal Nehru. Shah Nawaz Khan later went on to become a minister in Nehru's cabinet.

You can't blame your parents. They are not Jews with Jewish sensibilities.

Bad, bad indians ! They are so ignorant they dont even know who hitler is !! Chee, chee. And they also worship the swastika! And dont get me started on the ear hair problem....

On the other hard, in the west, knowledge of indian history is widespread. Every schoolchild in US or Europe has full knowledge of Ashoka and Akbar. The economic destruction of india at the hands of the british is taught in every high school as is the history of the indian freedom struggle. Even middle-schoolers are aware of the conditions that led upto "partition" in which perhaps a million people died in South Asia.

Not completely true per the stats that you link to. Read it again and you will find: a) Gandhi #1 at 23% b) Hitler at #3 at 17%

Well, we all know how these polls work, don't they? Who among us hasn't received bevies of emails from "friends" near and far, requesting us to ACT NOW! RESTORE INDIA'S PRIDE! VOTE AMITABH BACCHAN WORLD'S GREATES ACTOR!!!!! TAJ MAHAL ONLY WONDER OF UNIVERSE! PLS TO MAKE FRANSHIP WITH ME!!!!

so whoever bought these bats (yo dad?) didnt notice this? Apparently you didnt use these bats a whole lot either..

@al-chutiya?
modi warrants a separate post/thread

Al Beruni, what's your point? That Indians should ensure that they are in the pole position in the competitive ignorance game?

Rahul

European history does not equal world history. I would like greater knowledge of world history to be more broadly accessible in all countries. Most westerners know squat about asian history. Its consequences have been DEVASTATING. Most americans do not know that 2 million vietnamese were killed during the conflict there.

Lets talk about the problem in an appropriate framework, not in this silly "oh my god, the indians dont know much about the holocaust, there must be something wrong with them" model.

Al Beruni:
"And they also worship the swastika! And dont get me started on the ear hair problem...."

I don't see anyone questioning the swastika, we were just talking about how it understandbly has a different meaning in the West where many of us live.

Man, Papo. I smell some trouble brewing.
Yo Dad is NOT gonna be pleased. I won't be sayin' I tole you so though.

Abhi, it's slightly OT but your mother's passport photo is beautiful.

^__^

The education system in India has its inadequacies as others have pointed out. But let us not ignore the almost parochial aspect of how US schools teach students about anything other than US history. For the average American student - and for that matter the average American - the world revolves around the US. Even the British system, perhaps because of the country's colonial past, does provide some some perspective to students about world history. When it comes to world geography, the knowledge of the average American - who, after all, is a product of the US system of education - is abysmal.

In the field of mathematics, very little is ever said about the contributions of other countries and cultures to the knowledge gained over the centuries. The emphasis is on the contributions by Western mathematicians.

There is much that is wanting when it comes to the Indian system of education, but let us maintain some perspective as we laud the accomplishments of the US education system.

http://www.samarthbharat.com/bengalholocaust.htm

THE GREAT HOLOCAUST OF BENGAL

Churchill's role in creating this famine is not at all discusses in the 'western' world. He's revered as a great leader and a great statesman!

Churchill's role in creating this famine is not at all discusses in the 'western' world.

Deep inside one box in the darkest corner of my basement was my teddy bear. It doesn’t matter to me that he is cross-eyed and mangy.

Aww ... My brother had a bear called John, a soft velvet bear from the 60s, who became Johnny a yellow bear, a bit patchy with an eye and an arm always threatening to come off at the end of the 70s, and has now become ... Johnny, an old bear somewhere under the masses of toys my nephew and niece have ... I'm going to go find him ...

That aside, I'm with Coach - when Yo Dad finds out you threw out his stuff ... boy do I not want to be you ... ooh, you didn't actually throw out the suitcases did you? My mum still talks about when she got such and such suitcase and the memories of the trips she did with them ...

There is much that is wanting when it comes to the Indian system of education, but let us maintain some perspective as we laud the accomplishments of the US education system.

I don't think anybody here has been lauding the accomplishments of the US education system. That said, I don't think we need to justify our ignorance by pointing at somebody else's either.

As for Churchill, he's a disgusting racist, and I can't believe that the tomes he wrote advocating the decimation of all able bodied young men in Germany, and expressing contempt for the dark skinned people, were deemed worthy of a Nobel.

Abhi, it's slightly OT but your mother's passport photo is beautiful.

Actually you are one of the only ones ON topic. Thanks ;)

Ve haf ways of making you bat!

The Hitler bat reminds me of New Shit matches.

I can guess, the bat makers meant to spell “Hitter”

The education system in India has its inadequacies as others have pointed out. But let us not ignore the almost parochial aspect of how US schools teach students about anything other than US history. For the average American student - and for that matter the average American - the world revolves around the US.

Notsoyoungdesi: I agree about the average. I will go as far as to say that here in the US one can be considered highly educated even while asking "Do you speak Hindu ?". The US has no central body determining educational curriculum, and even if it did it would probably not include Asia outside of the colonial period. We have a wide variance in the quality of education, hence the use of the SAT basic exam for university admissions over something more comprehensive than the British A levels or French IB. India of course has a central board, but it is often a hostage to political interests. I guess the US Federal govt. gets to avoid the issue via decentralized rule. You teach about Columbus one way if your chief constituency is Italian-American, about the war over Texas if you are in an Anglo or Texican/Mexican area. And you read Zinn if you go to a beatnik school like Camille or Muralimannered ;-)

Abhi, to get back on topic, your "discoveries" as you rummaged through the hoardings of your parents made for interesting reading. I came to the US the very year that your parents apparently did. I lived in Kenya and had my early education there at a time when the country was still under colonial rule.

My siblings and I had very much the same view of our parents - both now deceased - hoarding of personal mementos and other extraneous items. Whether because of age or perhaps just the passage of time, some of these items have now come to mean a lot to us. I too have old passports of my parents and grandfather - the latter from when he first went to England to become a barrister in 1913!

I recently scanned old photo albums - many very faded - and put them on the net. One of my lasting regrets was the loss of old letters from my parents during one of our relocations within the US.

BTW, why is it that when I attempt to use features - such as the quoting of other posters comments - as an integral part of my response, and click on the appropriate icon, it takes me to the top of the page? This happens with both Firefox and IE.

I will go as far as to say that here in the US one can be considered highly educated even while asking "Do you speak Hindu ?". The US has no central body determining educational curriculum, and even if it did it would probably not include Asia outside of the colonial period.

I have to disagree--my middle/high school Social Studies curriculum did include Asian civilizations and history, before, during, and after colonialism. I knew from the moment I discovered this blog what 'Sepia Mutiny' was a play on. If anything, I'd say that our study of Latin America was shafted--I don't think we covered anything after ~1820 (except for Cuba as it related to the Bay of Pigs). Then again, I am from NY, and public schools there have the Regents Exams, which test multiple subjects throughout middle/high school, including World and U.S. History.

You teach about Columbus one way if your chief constituency is Italian-American, about the war over Texas if you are in an Anglo or Texican/Mexican area.

This is funny, actually... I have a friend whose sister teaches in a primarily black middle school in inner city L.A., and when she visited her sister, she said that she was struck by how even there, the curriculum focused on a more 'whitewashed' version of history of African-Americans, as opposed to going into more detail about Reconstruction, the Civil Rights movement (not just something involving Rosa Parks/MLK Jr./Malcolm X), and most of the posters on the walls were of white national heroes.

Though to get back on-topic, my elementary school was in a heavily Jewish area, and we spent like half of fifth grade learning about the Holocaust.

Maybe its supposed to send a message about an impending batting mayhem and terror within the opposition team's bowlers, so expect a cricketing run-fest something to the effect of a holocaust ;) Thats if its not a spelling mistake or if i'm the marketing guy stuck with 10000 bats on the shelves! The part about 'play with a soft ball only' was an anticlimax though.

I knew from the moment I discovered this blog what 'Sepia Mutiny' was a play on.

Oddly enough, I didn't! I was aware of the term "Sepoy Mutiny", but I'd always learned it as the War of 1857, or the First War of Independence, so I didn't immediately make the connection. Different mental representations and all that.

Abhi, do you know what the D on your mom's passport cover represent? Is it a diplomatic passport?

The part about 'play with a soft ball only' was an anticlimax though.

Well, Hitler did have a rather soft spot for his ball. It was precious to him, given that he had only one.

/whistles the theme from The Bridge On The River Kwai: "whee whee, whee WHEE whee WHEE WHEE wheeeee..."

ping pong, I believe the letter D on the passport, refers to "dependency". The British referred to the countries under their rule as "colonies', "protectorates" or "dependencies". I don't know what criteria had to be satisfied to meet each definition. Though the D was used on all British passports issued to citizens in any of the countries which were still under British rule.

Abhi, do you know what the D on your mom's passport cover represent? Is it a diplomatic passport?

Not sure. She wasn't a diplomat. If I had to guess it might stand for "Dual" or signify that she was "British Protected Person" instead of British born.

BTW, why is it that when I attempt to use features - such as the quoting of other posters comments - as an integral part of my response, and click on the appropriate icon, it takes me to the top of the page? This happens with both Firefox and IE.

Not sure. If you email me I can try to get you some help.

ping pong, I believe the letter D on the passport, refers to "dependency".

Could it be "D" for Dominion ? India was a British Dominion between 15 August 1947 and 26 January 1950. Uganda was a dominion until 1963...

Notsoyoungdesi & Abhi, thanks!

BTW, why is it that when I attempt to use features - such as the quoting of other posters comments - as an integral part of my response, and click on the appropriate icon, it takes me to the top of the page? This happens with both Firefox and IE.

Notsoyoungdesi: To use the features you have to first highlight the text first and then press the required feature. For example, if you would like to quote someone , first copy and paste that segment; select that whole segment and then press the quote button. To link to something, select the text you would like to link it to and then press the link button

To use the features you have to first highlight the text first and then press the required feature

Zuni, thank you - that worked. I suddenly feel quite brilliant:)

notsoyoungdesi wrote:

I recently scanned old photo albums - many very faded - and put them on the net.

I'm a sucker for old photos and I couldn't resist the temptation to browse the 'Photo Gallery' on your webpage.
That's an awesome collection.

The "Play With Soft Ball" label is a paraphrase of a quote from Mahatma Gandhi, who expressed his opinion that Jews should put up only non-violent resistance to Hitler...

Thanks for the kind words, desi. Glad you enjoyed them!

I know next to nothing about cricket bats, although there is a handsome, very plain one lurking in my coat closet, lovingly massaged with linseed oil many years ago. What I have to say here is that my two daughters are giving me the biggest Christmas present of all-- they are clearing out years of junk. A parental dwelling is always a repository of everyone's dreams, even their own-- but don't know about that cricket bat-- wasn't there a restaurant that was closed down, talked about on the last thread?-- anyhow, when we are all done here we will drink champagne, watch the battle of the Nutcrackers, and go to Midnight Mass.

Could it be "D" for Dominion ? India was a British Dominion between 15 August 1947 and 26 January 1950. Uganda was a dominion until 1963...

Not sure whether it stands for Dominion. Kenya was classified as a protectorate. I attempted to google this but did not see a definitive explanation.

notsoyoungdesi garu - I want to thank you for providing a link to your website that gave us a chance to learn such a colorful history of your family. I loved reading the various writings and those delightful pictures in blank and white. Thank you.

Oh and yes, Abhi, you so got this down, passports have also been found, ancient ones and those about to expire. I made a Photoshop montage of my past passport pictures and PDFed it to my mother to impress upon her how old I am now. A very green Christmas tree from six years ago showed up, a long forgotten, inflatable Italian model, and all the pierrots that make anyplace New Orleans in a flash. About that cricket bat, my Ex forgot that among other things, as well as a big formal photo of his father, and the Old Man's report cards from school before WWI. These are the kinds of things a dwelling absorbs like a sponge, and hides them under the furniture and behind mirrors and in dark corners.

Prasad, thank you - glad you enjoyed it. One is never sure when providing such a link whether it will be of interest to others not acquainted with the family.

A parental dwelling is always a repository of everyone's dreams, even their own......

Amrita, I just love the way you phrased the above - there is a lot of truth to that statement. Now will your daughters have a free hand in discarding the junk - or will you be the final arbiter of what can be trashed! We went through the same process sometime ago and I was the obstacle when it came to what could be thrown away.

By way of confession, I must admit that I still have every tax return I filed since 1971 when I arrived in the US!! It has become a bit of a joke in the family - since there is no earthly reason for keeping decades old returns. Perhaps one day, my great grand children will express appreciation for having access to them - the way we today feel glad to have the old passports of our parents and grandparents!

By way of confession, I must admit that I still have every tax return I filed since 1971 when I arrived in the US!! It has become a bit of a joke in the family - since there is no earthly reason for keeping decades old returns. Perhaps one day, my great grand children will

anyhow... the point of the above was not in the actual accounting, but in my relaying the joy and emotion that dad had in telling me this story. i dont know if i answered anything there, but i got great pleasure out of tellign this. i cherished seeing my dad as a son, and my peer, for the very first time. :_) and the takeaway here is that our idiosyncracies will be remembered, not because they show us up positively or negatively, but because they remind us of our human roots - that we're merely a continuation of a long line of people who;ve lived, loved and passed on much as we shall in a few more years.

Why would you take offence to a bat named Hitler :p

It could be because some of Hitler's children would have survived and were living in India. They wanted their family name to be remembered.

Just a thought! I still do not get it why you take offence to this :D

I still have my mother's passport and report cards from some school in UK. Funny how small things get us all emotional.

Heh, I remember after my visit to India at 8 yrs old I festooned art projects with (non-Nazi) swastikas for the next year or two in school. And not one teacher said anything?? (and I assure you this isn´t because they were enlightened about Hindu culture or would distinguish between the specific graphic design of the Nazi swastika vs. others)

I’m glad this precious document avoided ending up in the local dump. What a thing to show my kids some day.

30 · louiecypher

but we've already established that most Indians don't have much knowledge about the Holocaust.

Happy Holidays Mutineers and Anarchists and Universalists!

Abhi, this reminds me of one photo that I saw of an Indian corner shop. The sign above read "Child Bear", and nobody knew what the heck that meant. The proprietor of that store apparently wasn't that great at English, or ESL, or ETL, or EFL (English as a fifth language), and he meant to state: "Chilled Beer."

Abhi, brilliant tactic to do the clean-up while your Ps are away. I've been trying to do it at my Moms for 2 years, with no success, because everything becomes a must-keep. Its kind of fun to see what the ultimate pack-rat has stashed away, including a smocked dress from my 1st bday our Disney souvenirs from the 70s, and every issue of Neurology since 1974. (She doesnt believe in PubMed)

78 · boston_mahesh said

Happy Holidays Mutineers and Anarchists and Universalists!

Abhi, this reminds me of one photo that I saw of an Indian corner shop. The sign above read "Child Bear", and nobody knew what the heck that meant. The proprietor of that store apparently wasn't that great at English, or ESL, or ETL, or EFL (English as a fifth language), and he meant to state: "Chilled Beer."

And there was one called "iraning done here". Good thing it was before the days of the axis of evil or Bangalore would have been less one laundry shop....

Beautiful post Abhi! Enjoy the nostalgia!

70 · notsoyoungdesi said

Could it be "D" for Dominion ? India was a British Dominion between 15 August 1947 and 26 January 1950. Uganda was a dominion until 1963...

Not sure whether it stands for Dominion. Kenya was classified as a protectorate. I attempted to google this but did not see a definitive explanation.
Abhi's explanation makes the most sense, but in terms of "D's" in colonial rule, they were dominions [there were dominions, protectorates, and crown colonies -- each had a different definition in terms of colonial occupation/governance, access to the home Parliament, etc.] :) I don't normally promo Wikipedia, but their definitions are remarkably accurate (and match up nicely with Home Office reports, which are another easy way to figure out the classification system).

Also, I'm pretty sure Kenya became a colony (it started out as the East African Protectorate). :)

By the way, the new quote feature is kind of cool, but is simultaneously scaring me. Just wanted to putt hat out there :)

You have a bat that lasted 24 years?? (albeit in the basement)
Mine never lasted more than 3-4 months, are you sure you played with them at all :) ?
Ah, you probably had them in and while you were planning a mutiny all the while..

Are we talking about illiterate Indians? If not, it's hard for me to buy that one.

No, I am talking about many recently arrived Indians working at tech companies in the US. Very poorly educated in history, Indian or otherwise. I know this is going to generate outrage but it's what I see. This is the group that is receptive to arguments that Vedic culture or early Tamil Sangams developed 50,000 years ago. Very bright, definitely smarter than me, but with no foundation in history. Many of these people are the first university educated grads in their families and went through significant hardship, so I can't blame them for not having the leisure to study areas outside of technology/science. I am not DBD baiting, just pointing out that history education takes a backseat if you come from a poor country with crappy primary education and the only way forward is as a technocrat.

83 · Camille said

By the way, the new quote feature is kind of cool, but is simultaneously scaring me. Just wanted to putt hat out there :)

ngaaah... how khaufnaak ! :-)

actually I was expecting something like in Emacs, where you type yow and it pontificates stuff like this - "Yottawa is YOW and Los angeles is LAX"

Hey Abhi - Btw hope you are recycling all the the junk that your are removing from yo dad and mom's house. Pretty much everything can be recycled (including old posts). Let me know which part of the the US you are doing your winter housecleaning and I can post some local recycling resources on the list....

No, I am talking about many recently arrived Indians working at tech companies in the US. Very poorly educated in history, Indian or otherwise.

I have seen similar traits in many Indians, techies or not. I met a PhD (Chemistry, working in `Bio-Engg') who was extolling the virtues of Ayurveda and how US agencies are conspiring to keep that knowledge out of USA. Incidentally it was another visiting prof. from IT-Bhu who gave Mr. Ayurveda a 101 on phrama industry regulations in USA.

This is the group that is receptive to arguments that Vedic culture or early Tamil Sangams developed 50,000 years ago

This probably has more to do with cultural chauvinism than just lack of knowledge. One does not have to face hardship to be a chauvinist. OTOH do you think all the commentators and bloggers on this board have a balanced perspective? I don’t think so.

One theory that can explain the lack of knowledge in history (or even arts) in some of these engineers is the brutally competitive entrance exam system for engineering colleges in India. Most of the aspiring engineers are only concerned about PCM (Phy-Chem-Math). On the similar note not many artsy types in USA (or anywhere else) can solve differential equations.

Although the holocaust is a big deal in the USA / Europe - it is not a big deal for most of India. Also, India had very limited diplomatic relations with Israel - relations thawed only in the 90's. Jewish sensibilities is not of prime concern in India. A close relative was an INA veteran and received pension as a freedom fighter till his death. Does anyone know if India voted 'for' or 'against' the creation of Israel in 1948.

Hey Abhi - Btw hope you are recycling all the the junk that your are removing from yo dad and mom's house. Pretty much everything can be recycled (including old posts).

Too late. I am an eco-freak, but when you have to haul 9 tons of material (yes, that was the actual weight as measured by the truck scale and three trips to the dump) you are forced to commit numerous eco-crimes. Shit went down. Shit I'm really not proud of. I had only three days. What you propose would have taken three months. Did I mention that my dad's number one hoarding favorite is office supplies, particularly paper goods? We could have set up an Office Max franchise out of our basement.

I hope Al Gore doesn't read this.

Does anyone know if India voted 'for' or 'against' the creation of Israel in 1948.

India voted against the creation of Israel in the UN in 1948

Also, India had very limited diplomatic relations with Israel - relations thawed only in the 90's.

This was because they did not want to upset Indian Muslims.

Sulabh: I basically agree with you. But even as a person with an engineering/math background, I find social sciences/civics illiteracy more damaging to society. Numeracy and science is of course critical to national economic competitiveness, but this area of weakness has profound consequences in a country like India where we have many different people thrown together by consequence who know little about each other. I'm not suggesting that given the same set of historical facts we will all agree with each other's analysis, but we at least need some basis for conversation.

Does anyone else think that Nazi uniforms were very well designed.

You have a bat that lasted 24 years?? (albeit in the basement) Mine never lasted more than 3-4 months, are you sure you played with them at all :) ?

Forget Hitler and history, Gujarat is poised to vote for Modi again,
the Germans only voted for Hitler once.

For some people in India Hitler's example is to be emulated, to much of
the leadership of the Hindu right he is a hero and I would wager that they are well aware of the Holocaust.

For some people in India Hitler's example is to be emulated, to much of the leadership of the Hindu right he is a hero and I would wager that they are well aware of the Holocaust.

I wonder how much Muslims idolize the guy.

Sulabh: I basically agree with you. But even as a person with an engineering/math background, I find social sciences/civics illiteracy more damaging to society. Numeracy and science is of course critical to national economic competitiveness, but this area of weakness has profound consequences in a country like India where we have many different people thrown together by consequence who know little about each other.

louiecypher, i don't agree with your above comment re: the history part. yes, history is important. but what is more damaging than historical illiteracy is learning biased history written with no scholarship other than sucking up to the fashionable idea of the day---or outrageous extrapolations based on ideology---which is my opinion of the most controversial parts of indian history, be it the left or right versions.

till historians on both sides raise their standards---at least to the extent of acknowledging gaps in knowledge where they exist rather than fill it up sneakily with their agenda, i am happy their vitriol is not given importance. and it is not true that people know very little about each other in india---stop being so condescending. ask your grandparents about any of the groups prevelant locally, they will tell you quite a bit about them.

i will readily agree with you if you say this is flawed, since biases creep into such a decentralized version of disseminating history. but i won't necessarily agree with you if you say the current history scholarship does anything better. your scholars don't even care for most of local versions of history in any case.

No, I am talking about many recently arrived Indians working at tech companies in the US. Very poorly educated in history, Indian or otherwise. I know this is going to generate outrage but it's what I see.

This was because they did not want to upset Indian Muslims.

Why do you think it was not a principled stand ? Indians have and have had empathy for Palestininas who are bearing the brunt of this conflict - I have not seen appropriate coverage of their suffereing in mainstream US media. I think in this case Indians did the right thing. The "no" vote would not have changed the outcome. BTW look it up, the voting in UN was postponed more than once until the horsetrading by US and Isreal ensured the desired outcome. Votes were changed either with carrot or stick.

And, yes India has a sizable muslim population so the vote probably reflected the desire of her people - no ?

Free India Legion - A Waffen SS Foreign Legion in World War II. We had Indians fighting for Nazi Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indische_Legion

The ensign of Legion Freies Indien (Free India Legion) was later adopted as the Flag of Azad Hind. Azad Hind was the Indian Government-in-Exile established in Singapore in 1943.

Camille said

.....[there were dominions, protectorates, and crown colonies -- each had a different definition in terms of colonial occupation/governance, access to the home Parliament, etc.] :) .........

Also, I'm pretty sure Kenya became a colony (it started out as the East African Protectorate). :)

I stand corrected - the term "crown colony" definitely rings a bell. Also, I have this vague recollection of Kenya being referred to during colonial rule as a "colony and protectorate".

9 · nala wrote:

it seems to me that if so many people don't recognize the historical significance of Hitler, there is something missing.

It seems to me that if so many people don't recognize the despicableness of Henry Kissinger, there is something missing.

How different is Abhi's cricket bat from this baseball mascot?

Pot, meet kettle. Please climb down off your high horse and shake hands.

15 • ente wrote:

I'm sensing that the Holocaust in India has about the same or slightly more awareness as the Armenian genocide does over here--sort of a tsking "but what does that have to do with me?" view.

18 • Prasad wrote:

I'd rather keep it way it is - history as it happened. Beat it around the dates and place and the leaders.

20 • zuni wrote:

Historical dates might be confusing, but I also prefer hard facts rather than history being tinted by views/beliefs of different religion/civilization/culture.

23 • Pravin wrote:

The US and UK have allied with just as despicable people as Hitler to further their needs.

Yogi

Forget Hitler and history, Gujarat is poised to vote for Modi again,
the Germans only voted for Hitler once.

Again!!?? I believe in democracy too but an election every 2 weeks is taking it too far

For some people in India Hitler's example is to be emulated, to much of the leadership of the Hindu right he is a hero and I would wager that they are well aware of the Holocaust.

That explains why the hindu nationalists and the jewish state hate each other so much

BTW, Pravin, I was not disagreeing with you in the last bit of my comment there. I just wanted to say that some in the US aligned even with Hitler, himself.

I brought this post up in conversation and got the following response: "Hit-ler because you´re supposed to hit with it?" So, I hope that helps you, Abhi :)

"Play with soft ball"

I am just guessing that his is a warning against using the bat with "hard balls", such as a cork ball or a regular cricket ball, and to only use a soft (like tennis) ball.
Poorly constructed wooden bats can break easily when used with "hard balls"

Again!!?? I believe in democracy too but an election every 2 weeks is taking it too far

That explains why the hindu nationalists and the jewish state hate each other so much

Yogi,

There are serveral good explanations why Modi won and why he's popular. A bit of knowledge of Indian history would also explain why the non "progressive" types are not quite as aghast at Modi for 2002.

RSS leaders present and past have written approvingly of Hitler and his tactics.

If you really can assimilate something more than mindless talking points check this article. It does not shower the RSS in glory, but does add perspective.

I for one do not want to see this thread hijacked by the senseless vitriol and Guju baiting, and will not post anything more about Modi in this thread. In the spirit of Christmas, and the whole turning the other cheek thing, could you do the same?

This post is not the place for a discussion about Modi. Please refrain from leaving any more. That is what the news tab is for.
Thanks.

US schools don't teach much about US imperialism (starting with the Native American genocide) and support for scores of jerks like Saddam Hussein, Mobutu, Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, Ferdinand Marcos, Manuel Noriega, Francois Duvalier, Anastasio Samoza, Suharto, Rafael Trujillo, and Fulgencio Batista, among many, many others.

It seems to me that if so many people don't recognize the despicableness of Henry Kissinger, there is something missing.

I agree, I didn't mention before that I feel like my high school social studies curriculum shafted us in terms of more recent events, both in world history (post-WW2) and American history (post-1960s). Part of this is we're strapped for time, part of it is by the time we get to the end of the school year no one gives a s*it anymore (especially if it's post-AP exams), part of it is it's probably harder to try to treat more recent events objectively. (So I had to learn myself why Kissinger sucks, though I actually wrote a ten-page paper about the Iranian Revolution so I know all about the Shah).

What are some good sources for me to catch up with what I've missed on?

Nala

Try the "Trial of Henry Kissinger" by Christopher Hitchens.

He explains the many war crimes of Kissinger.

I dont think Kissinger is in the same league of Hitler;s people. Kissinger is an awful human being. He showed it with respect to Bangladesh and South American events. Still, I see Kissinger as one level below the Hitlers.

As far as Modi, I see this ridiculous article in rediff by some moron named B Raman http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/24raman.htm

What he fails to say is "secularists" like myself are not mad at Modi for staqnding up for Hindu rights. I agree Hindus dont have to pander to minorities in India. However, this idiot does not mention the main reaosn why Modi is despised. He supported the massacre of muslims in his own state. A state he governs. A state where he is the Chief Minister of the Muslim residents and is obligated to protect. What i found despicable is another article in rediff which quotes some rich NRIs who support Modi. Well, Hitler made the trains run on time. The Nazis were efficient. Is that a good enough reason to support them? That is the same rationale they use to support Modi. Hell, Osama Bin Laden is a saint if you ignore the 9-11 bombing . The same applies to some of the Islamic fanatics who bomb India's parliament or hijack their plane. They are not in it for the money. Should we praise them because the guy who was relased by India during the hijacking incident was a brilliant guy who eschewed riches to fight for his cause?

If you really can assimilate something more than mindless talking points check this article.
It does not shower the RSS in glory, but does add perspective.

You are being condescending and derisive and making a personal attack.

This is what Golwalkar guruji the second sarsanghchalak of RSS said in his book `We on Our Nationhood Defined':
"

To keep up the purity of the race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the semitic races — the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here...a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by.''

Also Bal Thackeray not a member of the RSS but certainly a part of the hindu right, has written articles in his newspaper Saamna
praising Hitler which I have read, I will find try to find these quotes, they are in Marathi though.

RSS believes in a muscular Hindu nationalism, they want to make India a "Hindu Rashtra". The whole concept of Hindutva is based on the hatred of the "other"; those who follow religions that did not originate in India(Jews and Parsis get a pass because they don't have much strength innumbers to really challenge the Hindutva project)Swayamsevaks are indoctrinated with this hatred week after week, Modi and many other BJPleaders come from RSS.

I used to know people in India who were active in the RSS and my knowledge of RSS is gleaned from conversations with them, their capacity for hatred seemed bottomless.

and Pravin at #114 Word. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I am signing off from this thread now I have other things to attend to.

I will find try to find these quotes,

I will try and find these quotes.

Last warning. Any more off topic comments will be deleted. One of the biggest gripes people have with SM is that every comment thread seems to eventually descend into an idealogical battle of some sort.

SM Intern sorry I didn't realize I was being off the topic I thought we were discussing Indian attitudes towards Hitler.

OK no more politically charged stuff and social commentary from me I promise. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all the mutineers.

SM Intern,

Thanks for the evenhanded enforcement of the rules. Often posters will make several leftwing ideologically charged statements on the sly (or in this case overtly) and then accuse anyone who responds back of "hijacking the thread" or "trolling".

102 · notsoyoungdesi said

I stand corrected - the term "crown colony" definitely rings a bell. Also, I have this vague recollection of Kenya being referred to during colonial rule as a "colony and protectorate".

And you read Zinn if you go to a beatnik school like Camille or Muralimannered ;-)

I often wonder how much our perspective changes because of our location in the U.S. Kissinger did horrific things and would certainly be classified as a war criminal. Hitler's exceptionalism is that he matched his disgusting ideology with brutal industrial efficiency. However, while his method may seem unique, it was not very far from what many other colonial powers were doing in other areas of the world. This does not diminish how disgusting his legacy is, but it's politically convenient for other nations to scapegoat Hitler's Germany to deflect attention away from their own gross injustices.

114 · Pravin said

I don't think Kissinger is in the same league of Hitler's people. Kissinger is an awful human being.

I don't know if we'll get much out of discussing degrees of evil, but I do think it's important to remember that we ALL have the potential to dehumanize and brutalize "the other." (The Stanford Prison Experiment, The Milgram Experiment, The Banality of Evil.) I think that when we deny this potential within ourselves and declare ourselves unequivocally better than "those evildoers," we are that much closer to becoming like "them."

Nala, I would recommend Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States. I've also heard that this is a pretty good, comprehensive book, but I haven't read it myself.

Finally, I want to reiterate that Abhi's cricket bat doesn't strike me as being any more offensive than the Cleveland Indians mascot. (Apparently, from it's well-preserved state, it doesn't seem that Abhi's bat struck much of anything at all! ;-)

SHAMELESS PLUG: Check out Border Crossings, the South Asian-interest radio show I work on, tomorrow night, 10-11 pm (Central Time). Here is last week's show with Abhi and Amardeep. And Merry Happy everybody.

88 · Sulabh said

One theory that can explain the lack of knowledge in history (or even arts) in some of these engineers is the brutally competitive entrance exam system for engineering colleges in India. Most of the aspiring engineers are only concerned about PCM (Phy-Chem-Math). On the similar note not many artsy types in USA (or anywhere else) can solve differential equations

He-he. Some "engineers" in USA can't solve differential equations either (just biased personal opinion from teaching experience).

Not every one can learn everything and given the constraints on time/effort the emphasis varies. The nature of the engineering education excludes taking any history/arts classes at university level and this isn't limited to India. I wonder how many engineers are ever history savvy.

Indian schools have to deal with teaching multiple languages (3 minimum, native-national-English, some take 4) in addition to standard math, natural and social sciences. The Indian education system might be lacking in some aspects, but so does any educational system if seen with a different emphasis.

OTOH, I think history is not just limited to schools but it is personal experience from collective memory. What I learned about Indian independence/partition from my grandmother stuck with me better. If a Jewish person was my neighbour perhaps I would understand/care about holocaust too. In my opinion the debate on Hitler awareness in India is like wondering why Japanese might care more about Hiroshima than holocaust.

Without the personal experience, despite "reading" history, Hitler may not appear satanic - only a person with better means to execute genocide (compared to Armenian genocide, Rwandan genocide, and others).

In response to your question, read Martha Nussbaum's "The Clash Within", to see how the BJP systematically introduces pro-Hitler messaging in children's textbooks and children's memorabilia to create a subliminal notion of the purity of the "aryan" or in this case north indian, indo-aryan caste. See Gujarat riots.