January 14, 2008
Drunk Women in Juhu: "What were they expecting?”Gender
Soon after New Year’s Eve, we began receiving tips about a dreadful incident in Bombay involving two young couples who were on vacation (Thanks, Rahul and many others):
A mob of 70-80 men groped and molested two young women for some 15 minutes on a busy main street in Mumbai’s glamour district Juhu early on New Year’s Day.
An identical incident had shamed India’s safest city exactly a year ago — a girl was molested by New Year’s eve revellers at the Gateway of India. That incident was captured on film by a popular Mumbai tabloid; Tuesday morning’s horror was shot by two Hindustan Times lensmen who happened to be on the spot.
The women — one in a black dress, the other in a jeans and top — emerged from the JW Marriott with two male friends around 1.45 am, and began walking towards Juhu beach close by.
A mob of about 40 got after them and began teasing the women. One of the women swore loudly at the hooligans.
But the mob, now 70-80 strong, wouldn’t let go. They trapped the women near a vehicle and a tree, and pounced on them. A man in a white shirt tore off the black dress. Another, in a blue shirt, led the assault. As the women fell on the ground, dozens of men jumped on them. [HT]
The story and the wide-spread, collective anger it inspired grew considerably when the Police Inspector tasked with the case expressed himself in a regrettably insensitive way:
The comments of the Mumbai police commissioner, DN Jadhav further enraged the people: “Don’t make a mountain out of a molehill. Keep your wives at home if you want them safe. This kind of small things can happen anywhere”. [meri]
Excellent. Two women who were brutalized deserved it because they were out and about, instead of in the kitchen. While a few Mumbaikars agreed with that unfortunate view, others certainly did not:
Arjun Ghai, executive with an MNC says, “The act was shameful but the attitude of the police in this regard is even worse. If MF Hussain puts up his paintings or a Hollywood star kisses a Bollywood actress, the Shiv Sainiks come to life, but what about such cases? It is the people of our great nation who need to be blamed. I am sure those who were involved in this gruesome act had sisters and wives sitting at home. Did they think about them even for an instance? No wonder we are living among vultures ready to pounce on the flesh of vulnerable women at the drop of a hat.”
Mira Sud, boutique owner opines, “I heard someone say that the girls might have been drunk or led the guys on. This is absolutely crazy. In a nation like ours where we worship Sita and Laxmi, people tend to lose their moral sense at times. Claiming that a woman might have been drunk is no reason or excuse. What about those instances where the men get drunk and pounce on women? Nobody blames them. In this male-dominated society of ours, we tend to blame the female gender without even considering the situation.”[meri]
Thankfully, someone contradicted Jadhav:
The state’s Deputy Chief Minister R R Patil made a statement saying, that the police chief’s reaction was inappropriate and that the government was taking the matter seriously. [NDTV]
As I alluded to earlier, some of the more retrograde opinions (which I didn’t care to publicize or quote) declared that these women were “asking for it” by behaving shamelessly and not respecting traditions which apparently involve always staying at home, lest one entice a helpless man to molestation. Well, these weren’t disobedient, frisky, fornicating teens on the beach (not that they’d deserve any of this either).
The newly-wed, NRI couple who faced humiliation at the hands of a mob in Juhu on New Year’s eve, had married in a traditional ceremony in Gujarat just a day before the incident…
Hiten Patel and his wife had come down to Mumbai along with Hiten’s cousin and his wife a day after their wedding to bring in the New Year. The couple wanted to holiday in India for a fortnight before flying back home.
Hundreds of their friends and relatives from the US had flown down to India for the wedding. Hiten’s uncle Sunil Patel told TOI, “Hiten was born in the US and has lived in Texas. He runs his family-owned chain of motels. His wife is pursuing her MBA in the US and theirs was an arranged match.”
The couple is still in a state of shock following the molestation. Hiten’s wife has said she’s trying to “get over the horror” while expressing her anger over the fact that bystanders had not come to their rescue. But when Hiten spoke to TOI, he said there were some people in the crowd who tried to “help us pick up our belongings. I have not lodged a police complaint since I do not want the wrong people to be booked.” [TOIlet]
Do some of these the so-called traditionalists feel a little sorry for condemning these women, now that we know they were so obedient and homely, one of them allowed her parents to choose her husband? Sorry, what’s that? All I hear is crickets chirping. Now it is two weeks later, and the alleged culprits are denying involvement:
The Juhu molestation case accused on Wednesday said that they were innocent. Addressing the media, the accused who are out on bail, said that they were merely onlookers who were pushed by a crowd on the New Year’s Eve, and the photographers clicked the wrong persons.
The men, in a belligerent outburst, accused the media of jumping too fast to their own conclusions. One of them said that he was not even there at the spot when the incident occurred.
“We were returning from dinner and saw a crowd of 150 surrounding two couples. We became curious and got thrown into the scene. The photographers just clicked our pictures and the police took us for interrogation,” the accused said. [Zee]
But wait! There’s MORE. These men don’t know when to shut up, but that flaw gave me my title for this post, so a microscopic thank you to these perverts for that:
The men didn’t stop at that clarification. They said that while the newspapers splashed ‘molestation’ pictures, they did not write a word about how the girls in question were drunk.
“The couples were in an inebriated state. They were smooching on the road. What were they expecting?”, they said. [Zee]
If this outrageous molestation of a new bride and her cousin wasn’t revolting enough, unfortunately several other instances of assault are in the news, some of them involving tourists, which has helped muddy India’s name on an international-scale.
Over New Year’s Eve, cases of molestation of tourists were reported both in Mumbai and Kochi.
A British journalist has alleged she was raped by the owner of the guesthouse in Udaipur where she was staying last week.
In another incident in Rajasthan, a 28-year-old American tourist was allegedly molested by a priest in front of a temple in the Hindu pilgrim town of Pushkar. The priest was subsequently arrested. [MalaysianSun]
2007 wasn’t so great for female travelers, either:
In March last year, the son of an important police official, was found guilty of raping a German researcher in Rajasthan.
Also last year, a Japanese tourist complained that she was drugged and raped by a group of men in Pushkar.
The latest report from the National Crime Records Bureau shows there has been a phenomenal eight-fold increase in rapes in India since 1971. [MalaysianSun]
About that appalling increase in rapes— Chachaji posted a link on the news tab which discusses exactly that chilling upward trend:
The latest crime statistics, pertaining to 2006, released by the Home Ministry’s National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) show that every hour 18 women become victims of crime. The number of rapes a day has increased nearly 700 per cent since 1971 — when such cases were first recorded by NCRB. It has grown from seven cases a day to 53.
The figure grew 5.5 per cent over the number of cases registered in 2005.
In comparison, all other crimes have grown by 300 per cent since 1953 when the NCRB started keeping records.
And these are just the cases that have been reported; the number of unreported cases is far higher. [HT]
Now that last bit has been on my mind while wading through all of these links that so many of you mutineers were kind enough to send in— is there an increase in the number of rapes or an increase in the number of rapes which are being reported?
According to NCRB figures, among 35 cities with a population of more than a million, Delhi topped the list of crimes against women with 4,134 cases (nearly one-fifth of the total crimes against women). One-third of the rapes and a fifth of the molestations took place in the city. Hyderabad was second most dangerous for women with 1,755 cases.
Among the states, Andhra Pradesh had the highest number of crimes committed against women — 21,484 cases or 13 per cent of the total cases in 2006. Uttar Pradesh was a close second, with 9.9 per cent of such crimes. Madhya Pradesh reported the highest number of rape cases, at 2,900, and also molestation cases. [HT]
Frustration is palpable, and not surprising. Tourism is important to Incredible India. Beyond that, regular ol’ Indians and NRIs are rightfully angered by such ugly acts. Yes, India has a conflicted view of women; for all the negativity associated with issues like infanticide, dowry deaths and other well-known social ills, there is also a strain of that so-called “traditionalism” (which the accused disgustingly attempted to use as justification for their reprehensible actions) which is protective of women. India is that complicated and that simple.
In DC, desi cab drivers in their idling Crown Victorias duck slightly to peer at stranger-me, their faces filled with worry, until I unlock the inner doors to my apartment lobby, enter and wave gratefully— they hear these news stories and feel anguish as they replace the victims at Juhu with their own kin. They worry out loud that India is changing and for the worse. Why do they wait to make sure I’m safely inside those glass doors? Because during my ride home from work or Trader Joe’s, they’re telling me about how they have a daughter my age or a niece who also took her Master’s at GW. There are more of these men than those who emulate the after-goodies mob at Juhu, but they will be obscured by all this scandal.
It must be so frustrating; at a time when so many exciting, promising things are happening in India, what is a foreign country going to cover— the Nano or the brutal rape of one of their female citizens? Even if they publish stories on both, which will retain the most mindshare, especially among those who are predisposed to believe the worst?
What the perpetrators of these sexual assaults fail to understand is that in commiting these lust-fueled, power-hungry attacks, they don’t just bruise or traumatize innocent women; they thoughtlessly and recklessly give their country a black eye, as well. If nothing else convinces these assholes to keep their hands to themselves, perhaps it might be effective to convey to them that a Cricket-related slight isn’t the only reason to obsess over India’s reputation; if they care so much about their country’s honor because of an unfair decision in Australia, they should spare a thought for India’s honor off the pitch, too.
anna on January 14, 2008 04:07 PM in Gender, Issues · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Even in Brigade Road, Bangalore, men will try and rub their way across. It is really gross. Sometimes I am so grateful that I have no daughters. A really sad commentary. And to boot, I am a mother of a teenager!
Unbelievable, what people do in the anonymity of crowds. I am furious.
My guess is that it's the reports that are going up, that more victims feel sufficiently empowered to at least make some noise. Or so I hope.
Indian men should get laid more.... and Indians should talk about sex more openly. That will take away some of the "cheap thrills" these idiots get.
I think the number of people reporting rapes is going up--I'm pretty sure there has always been a high number of rapes.
I hope foreign countries cover rapes in India over other things; since Indians care so much about reputation, maybe negative attention would cause some sort of change.
2 · Nina P said
I mentioned that in the post and I hope so, too. Not that I would judge or hold it against any woman who does not come forward...
There is an interesting theory, perhaps best-known from the book "Bare Branches," that as the male-to-female sex ratio increases, rape (and, violence in general) increases, though my understanding is that to date the empirical evidence is mixed.
Agreed. A good all-out campaign of sex education and open discussion would do a world of good for India and hopefully put an end to these shitty traditional ways of thinking. India could learn a lot from Sweden, Norway, Finland, the Netherlands...etc.
Not only did the Shiv Sena not come to life, it too pointed its accusatory finger at migrants and drunk women. Way to strike a blow for the culture wars!
Safety of women in India is a serious problem and one that requires serious study and analysis to eradicate.
Wouldnt it be ironic if it turned out the Gujarati motel owner parents of the bridegroom turned out to be Modi supporters? By the way, I am in no way insinuating that they are. But in case they are, one has to remember, if you condone one example of mob violence, you never know if another example of mob violence victimizes you or your family.
These Shiv Sena people get all courageous when they have to engage in silly protests about the harm done to their religion, yet do not think twice about going after this kind of criminal.
I feel bad for this women. I find it ridiculous that the hotel did not have security available to stop an incident near their entrance. Do you think the family members of these molestors will feel even a smidgen of embarassment when they see these pictures?
Wtf? This is way too charitable on these criminals. there is no excuse for what they did, even more disgusting is the way they persisted with it---it shows no sense of respect, decency or even baseline humanity.
Yeah right, these fellows thrill in being photographed like this, you expect them to care about negative attention others would get?
Anna, could you continue covering this story on this blog (by updating it)?
Is there any petition to remove Jadhav? I think it is very important he is taken off---it is not possible to fire employees in the government, but he can be subject to "punishment transfer". It is really important that the establishment doesn't condone this over-repeated ridiculous response, and consequent inaction.
Secondly, shouldn't the families of these dolts get framed photos of their husbands/sons/brothers? India remains a shame-based society---I would love to fund a project that does that. I am assuming there are already people fighting legally to put these monsters where they belong, it is not enough. about time we make these morons want to go there.
Maybe someone should remind Jadhav and those who so easily lapse into "traditional values were flouted" that this is a country that worships Durga, the strong feminine aspect as well. It is not cultural wars, don't lift it up to that level. It is that Jadhav is just as capable of being one of the mob, make no mistake.
I just couldnt believe my eyes when I read what Raj Thakre had to say about this.
You can tell people hundreds of "India Shining" stories, but all they have to do is tell you one if this to bring you back to reality.
They should find the real culprits (and not some inncoent people just for the heck of it, desi police is not above that) and make an example of them.
i mean:
Secondly, shouldn't the families of these dolts get framed photos of their husbands/sons/brothers caught red-handed?
I will do my best. I'm as concerned as you are.
note: I wouldn't have been able to post this without all your tips and submissions to the news tab. Thanks, mutineers.
great post,Anna--your analysis is right on. This is an important issue that needs to be highlighted. it just makes the blood boil to read about such incidents --there is a segment of indian men who are just scum and hooligans. moreover, the attempts to justify such depraved behavior by saying that the women in some way "deserved" (!!!!) it is even more reprehensible. it is very important for the press to demand justice for such incidents and keep the spotlight on these issues-- a society can only take pride in its progress when women are truly safe.
i dont know if foreign country coverage will make a difference to these hooligans--they probably dont do anything as fancy as reading newspapers. the pressure must be kept on the police to bring these hoodlums to justice.
This is infuriating and scary at the same time. I have some relatives who are trying to persuade me to migrate back to India and settle down there permanently. I grew up in Europe. What on earth will I do there? And news reports like these only frighten me even more. I am used to the freedoms I have in Europe. Where there is no such thing as chastity. Of course if I mention that to my relatives I'm the ignorant Westerner again. Only last week I was in Chennai, and I've read all these reports on both the Mumbai incident and the one on the Swedish girl. Apparently Chennai girls are very bold nowadays compared to a few years back but then there are still incidents like these. Getting laid is not the only answer - these vile people think they can get away with it because they have no respect for the form and character of a woman.
I had posted the following at UB. Doesnt hurt to repeat.
Check out their safedelhi site, and the site for the parent organization JagoRi.
their tagline is 'make your city safe for women'.
This is sad!
But I do think that a number of things are involved. First of all, sex is not easily available in India; nor is it talked about in a healthy manner. We also have a higher male to female ratio. Indian society has to find a way to address this problem in a practical way.
Maybe the only way to deal with this is to:
1. Make the rapists/molesters PAY for their crimes! There needs to be TV/media coverage of this. I almost wish that they had tv shows like "Oprah" where they could discuss stuff like this on TV.
2. Loosen up our highly Victorian Indian sexual mores. We need more practical ways of thinking, instead of "idealized" ways. The world is changing.
I don't know. Maybe they need to legalize Prostitution???? (I'm very uncomfortable with prostitution, for obvious reasons, but perhaps that is what they DO need.)
not to excuse what these people did, but if "getting laid more" is the answer, then you would think that these types of things wouldnt happen here in the US. but they do, and I've seen it happen more than once (spring break, mardi gras, during celebrations after winning a championship,etc....)
there are crimes against women in every society, in every big country, but what is unique here are the attempts to justify it , by the police chief , no less, that the women in some way deserved it.
this characterization of women as "good" or "bad" based on perceived scantiness of clothing, public display of affection towards a boyfriend or husband is a disgusting attitude that needs to change
O! btw - Dec 6, in my above comment refers to the December 6 massacre in montreal when a deranged guy went around a polytechnic killing women students. it's commemorated in canada as prevent violence against women day.
I completely disagree---sexual assault stems not from sexual desire, but from a disrespect/disregard of the victim. This is true of most crime in general. "Sex is not easily available" is a red herring.
Amul has a new ad campaign in response to the incident: http://blanknoiseproject.blogspot.com/2008/01/reconfiguring-mard-man.html
What happened here is different from rapes which can happen anywhere as there is scum in every part of the world.
What is shocking is that it all happened in public. All these men did what they did with impunity and it seems not many bystanders intervene. And this happened in mumbai, a city which takes pride in the fact that its women can walk alone late in the night without much fear. I think that claim is gone to the gutter now.
10 · Pravin said
thats real rich. if you didnt want to insinuate, then you shouldnt have written this.
24 · Upbhransh said
In all the links I pored over, I kept reading that "this tends to happen in Delhi" or "How could this happen in Bombay?". I think you've zeroed in on one aspect of the anger; I hope that this incident is an exception, one which prompts vigilance to maintain that aspect of Bombay's reputation (women being safe at night).
These women weren't even alone. They were with husbands, relatives. :(
i wasnt talking about rapes/molestation that happen in private, but those that happen here in the US in public.
anyway, this distracts from the main topic of the the post. i just thought it was silly that people think that getting laid more is some sort of solution....
Bonobo theories notwithstanding, I think the real roots of these kinds of incidents are a toxic mix of entitlement/disrespect, and an arrogance stemming from the pathetically inadequate enforcement of law and order in India, itself a result of under-staffing and venality.
"How could this happen in Bombay?".
Exactly this is what came to my mind,because in terms of percentage Bombay has the lowest crime rate in Asia among large cities.Bombay girls are really smart, they are generally very aware of there surrounding, i hate to say but migration might be a problem, newcomers may not well versed with the cityy culture.
Some interesting research papers on the jagori site. here's one condcting audit of delhi as a megacity with safety problems for women.
the audit was interesting. it also revealed, to me some interesting indicators of safety. mind you - the logic is extendable to men as well - the psychology of safety and that of a would-be assailant is critical to understand for any traveller in a strange city.
.on the flp side, there are certain danger areas - such as car parks, dhabas, parks where women feel and potentially are more vulnerable.
I would really love for the euphemism eve-teasing to be abolished from the colloquial and reporting discussion, and that they refer to these incidents as what they are - sexual assault. Although I wonder if even realizing what they are condoning will shame those paragons like the Chief Minister, police commissioner, and editorial writers from amending their regressive views.
The Blank Noise Project is an India-wide group working against "eve-teasing"
Wasn't it Blank Noise that would put up photographs of people that they took in public when they suspected them of harassment? I am glad that they are bringing awareness and empowerment to women in India, but actions such as public tarring and feathering without adequate vetting are uncomfortably close to vigilantism for my taste.
I was outraged when I read about this incident in Hindustan Times. The disturbing thing is that the police and the politicians showed no urgency in this case, and at one point suggested that the women invited trouble! How disgusting is that!
As far as generalizing this to the whole of India is concerned, I feel that we should refrain from that. This seems like an isolated incident and any attempts to understand the Indian man psyche (based on this) will be highly inaccurate. These incidents are very common in western countries too. Just the other day I saw a REAL TV footage shot in Central Park where some 30-40 women were being openly molested by a crowd that had gathered there after some parade. I've heard of many such incidents during spring breaks etc too. But the excuse that 'this happens everywhere' should not be used to brush it off. The police should educate itself and not shift the blame on the victims. Of course the bigger question here is the conduct of the mob. Why did they act in such a manner ?
That's no fun re: Juhu beach. It seems that the New Year's influences allowed the "leering men" to "go Delhi" (similarly to "going postal")
What's the deal with Delhi? Last time I was there I had to forcefully push/punch one guy in the center of the chest and quickly cut across the road before he and the five behind him could try to "brush" against my wife again. (It was a half-block of harassment)
In Mumbai, several years ago, some groper-type on a bus harassed my older sister-in-law. She didn't take well to it and put up a big uproar. Several other women on the bus joined in. Soon, the driver was forced to stop and eject the man. (Maybe he was nursing his wounds on Juhu beach, gathering followers for new years)
A skill that might've come in handy.
On the real, this is crummy, but if the local authorities believe it to be 'isolated' isn't that where the problem is?
This is very shameful, particularly for a Bombay girl like me.
Bytewords, you said
I disagree with you here. This kind of behavior definitely stems from sexual desire.
These are same men who stand in line for 2 hrs outside MahaLakshmi temple and Durga temple.
I think its just that suddenly Indians are getting exposed to sexual content (via internet, movies, etc) and they have got no outlet. They go to movies and see these hip gyrating women, internet gives them easy access to everything. But in reality, they are 25 or 30+ and are still virgins. Frustration sets in and they take it out on some innocent women.
The slideshow of photos of the incident is terrifying... all these guys with big ol' grins on their faces. Truly shameful.
Similar thing happened to me one early New Year's Eve night in New Delhi. It was around 9 pm and my friend and I were riding on a rickshaw around Connaught Place. It was very frightening. Thank God we got out of there alive and not raped. However we did get molested by a very large, rowdy crowd of men. The pic included above brings back engrams (memories) of that incident.
India is one of the worst countries on this planet for women, sorry to say. But until this fact is acknowledged, nothing will change.
Molestation is so common there that it has become an accepted but still dreaded reality for us.
One day in a book store I picked up some Lonely Planets and similar books and travel magazines. I purposely looked in the sections regarding preparing tourists for cultural differences and advice for women travelling. None of them had nearly the strong warnings that all the books and magazines had for India. In fact, most had no warnings whatsoever. But ALL of the ones for India contained very strong warnings for women travellers.
This is a very big and very real issue in India, and I have seen it cause many female tourists, and residents, to HATE the place.
It's gotten to the point where I cannot even read this kind of stuff anymore. I'm trying to forget the things that happened to me in New Delhi and the surrounding area so that I can convince myself to return when I have to, out of neccessity.
A woman scorned - Pardesi Gori ?
Probably, just like "Characterless Morality". It finds another situation to mock, as it laughs derisively at those who engage it, in the cerulean glow of its computer screen.
what I meant is that these are the same men who would participate in such a shameful act on innocent women but the next day stand in line for 2 hrs to pray to a Female goddess.
I feel that respect for women is not what triggers this kind of incident.
Hey y'all. I've been a lurker for many months on SM but felt compelled to speak out and share this very useful tip I came across on the SafeDelhi Jagori site:
http://safedelhi.jagori.org/deal-with-sexual-harassment/successful-strategies/
"I would like to share a small tip here, which I use frequently to pre-empt any undesirable incidents. After sitting in a taxi, I first call home and inform them about the taxi number and the drivers’s name, after asking the driver himself, though I make it a point to note down the taxi number myself. Then I tell my family members the estimated time in which I’ll be home. ( So that if I do not reach within that time, there is call from them)
I think, the fact that the driver is on record and can be tracked easily acts as a deterrent. (The name he provides can be wrong, but not the taxi number) "
Also, are pepper sprays and the like available in India? A tiny little pocket taser would be perfect! But those are illegal to carry in India.
I think the comparision to cricket is scathing -- if the populace could be as impassioned about decrying these crimes as they are about decrying something that happens in cricket--a lot could chang.
a big problem is the perception of women that has been alluded to --a woman who is the victim goes through a lot of trauma should she choose to press charges--there are many instance that never come to light because women decide that hiding the rape is emotionally easier that the emotional trauma of pressing charges --the support services available to women need to increase too.
It's something I not only hear from men, but from women as well when it comes to stories regarding women being sexually assaulted. "Well she was wearing something revealing" or whatever. I had a discussion with my mother once about how the one party I feel most uncomfortable at is Basement Bhangra, and how it disheartened me that the one place I felt extremely uncomfortable as a woman was amongst my own people. If you go out to a club, it can easily be said that most guys are trying to get laid. Fine. Who's to say I'm not? Maybe you'll come across a couple of creeps, but in the past few years, almost every time I've gone to Basement Bhangra I've had experiences with Punjabi men who don't know how to behave that just left me feeling gross. My mother suggested I should maybe wear something less revealing. I told her that, actually, this party is one where I dress more conservatively (relatively) because I'm among so many Punjabis and Sikhs it almost feels like I'm at a family party, and it's a reflex to not walk around in a shirt that shows much, if any, cleavage, or anything revealing period. But in the end, I could walk around in a potato sack with leggings and a turtleneck underneath, and someone will still try to grope me or just be nasty. Again, she kept suggesting it was because of how I dressed in clubs that men felt it was ok to be gross with me. She wasn't getting the point.
It sounds corny, but if you've ever seen HBO's Lifestories: Families in Crisis, there was an episode telling the story of a girl who had been date-raped. At the end of the episode, the woman whose story was told actually spoke. She said, "If I walk down a dark alley in the middle of the night, and end up getting mugged, I might be an idiot for walking down that dark alley in the first place, but you would never say it was my fault."
I was in India over New Years, and as I read the HT's articles about how many men felt that these women brought these incidents upon themselves, it just made my heart drop. Ok, so the women being out of the house at night merited being jumped on by a mob of men? Really? wtf.
Globalism has a dark side. In India a perception exists that western women and westernized desis are sexually easy and less concerned about sexual morality. The widespread availability of porn in the West, which is now available in India through the internet, has helped to build that perception. In the west feminists defend porn as a form of free expression. I am not defending the dreadful behavior of molesters and rapists but that perception ought to be mentioned in travel guides and in discussions of sexual assaults on foreign tourists.
I don't find the molestation and rape of women "another situation to mock". Do I laugh "derisively at those who engage in it"? No I do not laugh at people who engage in the molestation and rape of women. It is not a laughing matter and I suggest that you quit while you're ahead, because your attitude appears to be offensive and frivilous towards a topic which is very serious, to alot of people, even if not to you.
I didn't say "engage in it", I said "engage it". Maybe your haste in concocting another situation of your first hand experience of every aspect, high and low, in India led to your misinterpreting my sentence.
I am ahead? Thank you!
So what if its illegal. If there is even one woman who is able to ward off an assualt using one of those little Tasers, and then proclaims it as her saviour; it will do great to remove the ban and drive up the sales of the product.
I can just see a little Taser made specially for indian market (Maryada-Rakshak or Jatayu or something!) and an advertising campaign where a woman is putting a rakhi on her mini shocker,
Or Sita tasing the hell out of rawan that side of lakshman Rekha.
Disclaimer- I am long Taser stock.
Yes, but the missing link is that while some people may be more "sexually easy" and "less concerned about sexual morality", there's that word again, they are sexually easy and available towards whom? People they choose to be open to in that regard. That choice, that mutual attraction, that mutual consent factor is what these people do not take into consideration when they think along these lines. Do they actually think that sexual freedom means rape? Where have they gotten this idea from?
Introduction
Some small talk
Mutual banter and flirting
A come on
A positive response
Then move from there
That is the process and someone has to teach these goons that THAT is sexual freedom, NOT RAPE!
off topic (pls delete) http://www.pagesix.com/story/wedding+dress+fridays
I'm not a porn watcher, but are you saying that rape is a common scenario in porn? Otherwise if it's just barely a word spoken before mutually wanted and enjoyed sex is portrayed, I don't see why they would extract a "the crime of rape is normal and accepted sex" idea from that. Also, what kind of person actually believes porn to be an example of real life anyway?
Before the thread is derailed by the digressions of PG, the issue here is not about Western vs. Indian, there have been regrettably many cases where Indian women have been at the receiving end of such behavior, and these women were Indian, even if they were NRIs.
It's not obvious at all that causation runs from "more porn" to "more rape." See this for quite the opposite conclusion.
If no one has ever spoken to you about sex in an open manner (possibly leading you to believe that it is deviant) and you've never really been in the West or met people from there, and your first major exposure to either is a porno, then it's plausible that someone could consider a porn as an example of real life.
Also, for someone with little to no exposure to western women or "western ways", porn may not be implanting the idea of sex being deviant or women being objects to use in sex in the person's head - it may just affirm what they've already heard about women who are more "liberated".
I for one do not blame the culprits. As usual I side the culprits. I believe an ecosystem exists in which these beast in human minds thrive and successfully show their faces in India. Families never explain how such behavior is inappropriate, society does not have strict rules regarding treating men with suspicious behavior and women have been treated as sub standard in Hindu philosophy. What do you expect from such a climate of male dominant and all embodying land of Rama. Hell even Sita was sent to second vanvas.
Please! This is one subject which does not warrent a digression.
It is however a subject which unfortunately I have more than alot of experience in. Am I to be shamed and blamed for that and thus keep quiet?
And of course this happens to Indian women, all the time. Did anyone suggest otherwise? What do you think The Blank Noise Project is all about?
If I sound aggressive and peeved, it is because this type of behaviour and the reactions it invites afterwards, such as the ones expressed above and in the news articles themselves, is my big pet peev, due to being at the receiving end way too many distressing times. There are no words to describe how it makes a woman feel. Just when you think you've gotten over it and moved on, well, you read something like this and it all comes alive again and all those old feelings start flooding your consciousness. I am boiling. And I will bow out because if I continue to engage, my blood pressure will rise.
Suffice it to say..... well, this blog and the news articles and comments therein that it links to says it all.
I rest my case.
62 · A woman scorned said
Quite fair of you, thanks.
61 · Devils Advocate said
PG again? I thought she was resting her case.
65 · muralimannered said
Not PG's writing style. Same "Devils Advocate" who thought the maids were trying to get over by accusing Varsha of fake abuse.
I'm not surprised, unfortunately. The treatment of women in India is disgusting and completely unacceptable. Unfortunately, I don't have the cojones to stand up to idiots that try to cop a feel. I also agree that there needs to be a very frank & open campaign regarding sexuality and gender in India, Shiv Sena insanity notwithstanding.
What don't you have experience in, oh shape shifting Pardesi Gori? Widow remarriage, cousin marriage, sati, dowry, arranged marriage, black men, rastafarianism, bukkake, you name it, you've done it.
Wasn't me. I wouldn't bring my Isht into the equation, being a Hindu. But do concede there may be some correlation between old religious lore and present day issues, in any culture.
Bowing out... but will lurk and read.
A woman scorned said -
I agree with you here. I do not think men will ever understand the rage and frustration that women feel.
When Melbourne desi said -pardesi Gori, I lost interest in having any decent discussion here. They will never understand how long it takes to get over such incidents. Never.
A woman scorned - I totally understand what you are saying.
68 · Rahul said
Pathu solluda ;)
I agree with you here. I do not think men will ever understand the rage and frustration that women feel.
i disagree--there are many decent and good men who are repelled by these acts, who truly respect women and who would understand the rage that women feel; like the many men who are commenting here--more of these men in indian society must raise their voices and be heard
The funny thing is, when I was in Bombay during the first half of December, there was an incident inside the Marriott that DID get the SS out: several men from a Marathi theater troupe were not allowed into the hotel's nightclub because they were wearing kolhapuris, and the club said they have a "no open-toed shoes" policy. The next day the actors came back with the Shiv Sainiks, and the someone from the hotel was forced to apologize, with TV cameras rolling.
Men are victims of sexual assault, too. They are far less likely than women to report it-- not that many women feel safe enough to do that. Let's not assume that every member of an entire gender hasn't experienced what we have or perhaps something similar; what did the new husband feel, while seeing his bride of just 24 hours get assaulted, with no way of defending her? Men take that shit to heart. We need to work together, not polarize.
Disgusting behaviour.
Unfortunately, I did witness such a thing when the crowd that I went out with were the ones who did such a disgusting act. It was appalling to see education guys behave like pigs. That was when I knew that education got nothing to do with sensibilities. Some of those guys were the ones who were otherwise didnt know how to even strike a conversation with their own female classmates. I was 19 then and it still pains me to admit that all I could do was give a disapproving headshake and an apologetic glance at the girls.
Many men will not, as evidenced here;
Trivializing the fact that I was referring to my experiences as a victim of molestation. I wonder why Rahul bothered to leave the "molestation" part out and harp on about all the other things, that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I do feel hurt by the above, and I feel he is trivializing the crime being discussed here, which is an insult to women.
In regards to the chicken-or-egg question, violence against women is unfortunately nothing new. The only change now is that there is a semi-dependable outlet (the media) to which victims can go instead of relying on corrupt/lazy/chauvenistic police.
The attack and subsequent police reaction are deplorable, regardless where they happened. Blaming porn, western movies, or lack of sex is oversimplifying at best. Violence against women is an issue that is not unique to India, and the 'desi angle' shouldn't blind us to the fact that it's an issue that needs to be dealt with inside and out of the desh.These sort of mob incidents happen in Western countries too (I'm thinking specifically of the Puerto Rican day parade in New York a few years back, but there are plenty of other instances), places where much more 'liberal' views of sex are the norm.
The power dynamic shouldn't be overlooked. Any time a large group goes after a few minorities, it's more about the invincibility/anonymity of a crowd than the actual act of sex.
I wish I could suggest some sort of remedy to a bad situation, but change has to come from within. Until then, thanks, SM for bringing this to light.
Anna, you said -
Men don't get assaulted every time they board train or bus in India. I am aware that most men are sympathetic and at least try to understand. But my anger is towards some men here who are quick to post messages like "pardesi gori". What the heck is he thinking?
When someone here is sharing her worst experience in life - these men refer to her as "shape shifting Pardesi Gori? "
C'mon guys. Show some respect.
Ok, I will add molestation to the inventory of "experiences" that you catalog the next time you break your silence after "bowing out". Inserting yourself into imagined scenarios to derail the conversation is the way to treat this crime with the seriousness it deserves. Anybody can google for "pardesi gori" in the Sepia Mutiny archives and make their own assessment of the honesty and intent of your "contributions" to these threads.
I am honored to be considered equivalent to many men.
Enakku paarka vendam! :)
Sigh. PG, don't you get it yet? The fact that you make EVERY thread you comment on about YOU is precisely why people get annoyed by you, and I end up having to ban your various incarnations. That is why no matter how many times you change your name, a single comment reveals your identity.
Ok. what is going on ? Looks like I am getting scammed by someone here?
Probably should have checked PG out before getting all angry and emotional :)
Of course, it gets it. It fakes everything else, why not hurt?
This makes me so sick...reminds me too of times I've traveled in India and the difficulties I've encountered.
Stuff like this does happen in the U.S. - remember the Puerto Rican Day parade in New York city?
But I remember when I was having problems traveling in india and also had been sexually assaulted in india(it's just not wise to travel by yourself as an indian women), I was comparing in my mind, my experiences in the U.S. - and I know that I trust the institutions in the U.S. more to take care of my rights; so if I was harassed or sexually assaulted in the U.S. I feel that it's easier to get help and condemning the women is a less viable way to get the assaulting men off. In India, patriarchy is so strong and is the dominant tone to a very a complex culture, it's the dominant tone in institutions like the police, I feel that I am much more vulnerable in India to getting help before the sexual assualt and after the sexual assault.
The slideshow - there's one picture of one of the assault victims, her dress is pulled up, the men's face jeering...that just makes me feel so sick and so sad.
I wouldn't say that India is the worst country for women...I just think that india's reputation has as "india shining", has some basis - ...for a developing nation like India to have top universities like IITs, scientists, doctors conducting amazing operations like the one on the child with too many limbs in bangalor, reading from "india after gandhi" and reading about the creation of India's constitution...this is not saudia arabia. Indian women were a large part of the creation of India....so it's all those juxtaposing images that makes me (at least) more infuriated that this could happen in india.
Fuerza Dulce,
First, I feel like I should say "sorry" on behalf of all the decent punjabi dudes who do go to Basement Bhangra and don't act inappropriately with women. I've seen the behavior you've mentioned and I think it's a very small percentage of those who attend the Basement Bhangra parties but I definitely see how it could get very uncomfortable. When my female friends or relatives go, I usually head out with them or send another male chaperone of some sort, just so no one acts untoward to them. When I can, I've told guys to back off. And I've seen other guys do similarly. My experience, unfortunately, is that the lack of appropriate behavior towards women happens at a lot of nightspots, desi or otherwise. I really hope you won't give up on going to one of your favorite spots because of a handful of jerks. Just take reasonable precautions, (I hope I'm not sounding like an older bro), watch the drink to make sure it's yours and not something that's been adulterated, go with other ladies, and learn some self-defense. (I'm sure you already know this but it bears repeating and I say the same to my female relatives and friends.) I'm sorry that we live in a world where a woman should have to consider these precautions. There's an organization that's called Girl Fight Back, that does some good work in preparing women for some of these situations. They also provide certain products that might prove helpful. Another good organization is RAINN.
Now Generally with respect to this thread and the Juhu Attack.
Sex is not why rapists commit crimes. It has nothing to do with what a woman wears or what she says or how she acts, it has everything to do with the idea of power and entitlement. Rape is a crime about power. It is prevalent in mob violence because the group feels that it can do what it wants with impunity. There's the feeling of collective euphoria that one can't be touched and one rules the night. The idea that Indian man's perceived lack of sex leading to rape is off the mark. Rather, it deals with certain men's (desi or otherwise) desire to impose their own physical will or make up for whatever inferiority they feel in themselves by hurting someone weaker than them. To say it's about sex, devalues the violence of the act. This is not about making love or satisfying a sexual need, it's about physical violence. Plain and simple. As ugly as that is, that's what its about. Men and women should recognize it for what it is so that they understand that this is acute brutality designed to take a feeling of power from someone else and imbue it to the rapist.
Usually, I'm the last to judge anyone based on a news story since I don't think the papers do a very good job of collecting facts. In this instance, I find the typical scenario played out in any rape, sexual assault matter. Blame the victim and/or hide from the truth. The 2 photographers who caught the suspects on film and the identification by the women's relatives is more than enough to get a conviction in the States and it should be the same in India. There's no excuse for the authorities to do anything differently. India wants to shine, put em away and let the world know that the Indian legal system will protect a woman. That will go a long way in detering certain individuals from doing these acts.
Sigh. Abhi, I don't get it. I posted my experience which is directly related to this incidence. Anything wrong with that?
Rahul and one or two others felt to egg me on by disrespecting me. Then when I defend myself (speak up), I'm the guilty one.
It kind of mirrors the experience these NRI ladies had in Mumbai on New Year's Eve, come to think of it.
A woman described an instance in which she was a victim of a crime and a reply came;
When the woman expresses hurt, she get's this retort;
Notice the woman is no longer human, but an "it".
By reducing her (a woman) to it (an object), it is then possible to say or do anything to "it" without any guilt, remoarse or normal human emotions that would be normally be employed towards humans.
And I could bow out of commenting if only people would stop ridiculing me and my experiences with crime even after I said I was bowing out. But sorry, no, I can't bow out when such obvious misogyny (from Rahul) is directed towards me or any woman.
How this is permitted in such a serious discussion, now that is something I don't get.
I think Rahul is the one who deserves the chastisement, not me.
And now I'm being told it didn't happen!
Unbelievable. This is why such scenarios are so frequent in India. Rahuls are living there.
ANNA, as a woman and as a blogger here, as well as someone who has had similar experiences, how do you feel about this?
Rahul, it's NOT ok to tell a woman she did not experience what she experienced. Just who do you think you are?
Just stop please.
As a woman, I find this incident undeniably heinous. But again, you are all falling prey to biased media coverage. As awful as these incidents are, they still do not indicate to me that India has some sort of exclusivity over degradation of women that we are somehow above here in the U.S. To everyone who says these sort of things would only happen in India, I have two words for you: Central park.
PG, I would say you were hilarious in your feigned indignation and excessive melodrama if you hadn't sunk as low as to exploit A N N A's past honesty on this blog for your travesties.
PG,
1. Credibility is earned over time. You switch handles frequently, on an anonymous forum where handles are usually the only fixed reference that other commenters have to your online persona (thankfully it's not the only one, as your writing style and it's repeated identification proves), so despite your protests that's what some commenters will do after a while.
2. Rahul is not only God's gift to women, he is also a card-carrying member of the Estrogen Supremacy Front (he might disavow membership, but that's only because he's covertly applying chemical castration to every molester in the known world).
3. Nobody, regarding Rahul, will agree with you (unless they're unfamiliar with your commenting history.)
A woman scorned/pardesi gori/mistress of spices/carib queen/tara watabe/PG/etc.
Notice all those handles you've used? They indicate deception. That is why you are refered to as IT instead of she. Because many people here feel they can't trust you, because you reinvent yourself with a new handle and identity, repeatedly after having been banned, even your professed gender becomes questionable, as does everything else you've ever claimed on this site. You are not a credible commenter.
THAT'S why you are mocked, ridiculed, disdained and disbelieved. Not because of your "gender". Many of the male bloggers here have a vested intere