This sums up all my earliest experiences with 'my culture'.
1) parents take me to some strange building (the Gandhi Center in St. Louis) to learn about Hindu mythology
2) child goes through the motions, memorizing prayers and songs verbatim
3) parents meet with other Indians in the community, argue whose son is more praise-worthy
4) child leaves, confused and slightly concerned about his culture, resolves to teach his own kids about 'what it means to be Hindu' by subjecting them to the exact same vaguely cultural events.

Which brings us back to d'oh.

vanakkam nayagare!

I am a DBD and when I was in my 9th standard, whenever the whole class showed interest in acting in the school play, my Kannada teacher used to suggest Ramayana as the play. That way, he said, we can enact the attack of the vanara army scene and the added bonus is that we didn't have to practice! Of course it took a few seconds for everyone to realize what he said, get disappointed and then laugh at it (in the first second, everyone got disappointed that they had to play a monkey and that the teacher had just *me* a monkey but immediately afterwards in the second second, everyone started laughing - at someone else - thinking that the teacher just called *him* a monkey). Our brain is wonderful!

This isn't just a phenomenon in Morristown, but in every desi enclave across the United States. And frankly, I think it's up to the individual to decide what their heritage is and what it means to them.

Hanuman was more than a mere monkey. Like when people want to mock Hinduism or the Ramayana, they say, "yeah you people worship monkeys".

First of all, Hanuman is not worshipped as Bhagavan, Ishwar, the SUPREME LORD, God or whatever. Rather he is honored for being the representative of complete bhakti (devotion) and surrender unto God and Goddess, Rama and Sita, in their earthly incarnations.

It's easy to mock people. And there's certainly a lot there to mock if you're so inclined. But what are you offering in its place?

vanakkam nayagare!

Nundri! Nundri!

Greetings Mutineers! I am Nayagan

This Nayagan?

And I think we need a Gurinder Chadha inspired study of the unique melange of South Asian assimilation, conformity, dance, and drive for achievement in her new movie, Strictly Bhalle Room!

9 · Blunt I was also happy to see that all her students are Indian-American.

Ouch. What do you have against our Lankan brothers and sisters?

Nayagar ayya... Neenga nallavara, illa kettavara? :)

8 · Rahul said

Greetings Mutineers! I am Nayagan

This Nayagan?

And I think we need a Gurinder Chadha inspired study of the unique melange of South Asian assimilation, conformity, dance, and drive for achievement in her new movie, Strictly Bhalle Room!

Rahul,

I Yam Hero I Tell You!

some young women find a productive and healthy way to connect to their culture, and of course you all sneer because it comes from the "old guard"

sneering is only the beginning. I asked what it meant to you all and hoped that someone could reply without deploying the platitudes to which I referred. Is anyone up to the task?

9 · Blunt said

Why is there so much haterade on here? So many people on here are always complaining about the difficulty of identity issues etc., and some young women find a productive and healthy way to connect to their culture, and of course you all sneer because it comes from the "old guard"...I was also happy to see that all her students are Indian-American.

You're an expert on haterade, Hillside/Gautham, so you would know. Don't feed the troll, people.

Wonderfully hilarious post! Thanks! As a Bharatanatyam-trained performer and theatre artist, and especially in the enlightenment I have got after a recent, long tour of the US, I am disgusted by this 'tradition' and 'roots' discourse even here in Chennai, let alone the diasporic arts communities whose love for tradition and roots had me choking over each morsel of food. This sort of a successful nationalization of a regional and religious art form and giving it such airs of antiquity when it is - as any of us with a sense of 20th century Indian history would know - a 'revived' and 'reformed' version of 'Sadir,' performed primarily by Devadasis of south India. some 70 or 80 years back, it was not a tradition any of the middle classes were even peripherally proud of, let alone practice. Was it Derek Walcott who wrote "I am not a tree with my root in the soil"?!

Don't worry. For every Teena Ammakuzhiyil who learns Bharathanatyam to get 'back to her roots', there is a Supriya Jindal who likes to be portrayed as follows.

Although she has visited India several times -- including once with Bobby, when he was sent as a congressman on a trade mission -- she says she doesn't feel any particular attachment to the country of her ancestors or any particular sense of comfort when she's there. Nor does she follow the news from India with any particular regularity.

"I think it's interesting. I enjoy traveling and experiencing different things, different cultures. But it's not a direct connection," she says.

"She's a New Orleans girl," Bobby says. "I think that defines her more."

From: Louisiana's new first lady is mom and MBA

Ammakuzhiyil

So, this word literally means "In mom's pit" (whatever that is) in Tamil. Does it have a different connotation/meaning in Malayalam?

15 · jaali

Don't be hating on my hero's wife! Baton Rouge is worth a mass. ;-)

16 · Rahul said

So, this word literally means "In mom's pit" (whatever that is) in Tamil. Does it have a different connotation/meaning in Malayalam?

teehee!

I think -kuzhyil refers to the particular [town?] of origin. It's all matrilineal - which makes Ammakuzhyil pretty ambiguous, but I guess that's what happens when you get to the diaspora, eh eh?

17 · rob said

Baton Rouge is worth a mass. ;-)

zing!

...what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

I reject the word "Auntie" as part of my Hindi heritage.

21 · Rahul said

I reject the word "Auntie" as part of my Hindi heritage

HA HA HA !

20 · jyotsana said

...what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

Nayagare where's the problem in that? When there is no compulsion in this matter, pupils' parents admit their minor children at Bina Auntie's dance school of their own will. Right? And of course if your ancestry can be traced to the Indian subcontinent, this is a part of your heritage. You may accept it or reject it. But it still is.

Jyotsana,

From the legal perspective, they do accept the status quo when they enter the school. Legalities, however, do not a feeling make nor do they satisfy my thirst for honest replies from those affected. I asked that question because performing arts are often marketed as vehicles to cultural re-education, but what education is this? For most items outside of mostly natya Thillanas and mostly natya Jathiswarams, most items (padams, varnams, kirtanams etc.) are all about Hindu mythology--stories that largely do not address the histories of other religious communities which have ebbed and risen over time (there may certainly be songs/bhajans about this diversity/practice of tolerance but aside from Vaishnava Janatho, I know of none that have been choreographed into items). You should also know that Bharatanatyam, in particular, draws a very diverse student population--it's not all about desis anymore.

I really want to hear from students /teachers/performers/admirers/critics of classical indian art forms who did not travel the easy route via acculturation in Hindu mythology.

who did not travel the easy route via acculturation in Hindu mythology.

nayagare, you have given the answer yourself...desis indulge in this way of hindu cultural education/acculturation/connection because other ways are more difficult. this is the easiest way out...

First you should define what you mean by 'culture' and then take offense to the use of Hindu "mythology" (why the term mythology is used and not theology) in spreading the Indian "culture".
So is it Ok if they claim to impart "Hindu culture" instead of "Indian culture" when advertising "bharathanatyam". I don't think anyone is forcing any non-Hindu kids of Indian origin to enroll themselves in "Bharatanatyam" classes.

Rahul,

Thanks for the "lollu sabha nayagan". I was ROFL.. Are you a DBD?. I doubt if any ABD could get the "jokes"/ even the "slang" used.

Naan adichaa nee sethuduve. Now be nice to the guest, at least until his second post.

maan pola vanthavane, yaar adichaaro?

non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

do non-hindu desi indulge in these hindu activities ? not sure they do and if not then your question is redundant.

Yaar adichaaro, yaar adichaaro.

do non-hindu desi indulge in these hindu activities ?

Yes, there are non-hindu desis indulging in classical indian performing arts. Was this actually a question?

English only please. This is America.

Yes, there are non-hindu desis indulging in classical indian performing arts. Was this actually a question?

So that's their choice, they have to accept whatever baggage comes with it. No one forced them to join those classes. If they can separate those elements that alienate them from those that attract them, great. Or if they can keep clear in their mind not to get too carried away with the Hinduness of it, great. But it's not the responsibility of the teachers or the classes or whatever. They and their parents have to sort that out themselves.

31 · Rajni the Monkey said

English only please. This is America.

please excusing.

maan pola vanthavane, yaar adichaaro?: you who like a deer came, who hit-o you?

32 · Amitabh said

Yes, there are non-hindu desis indulging in classical indian performing arts. Was this actually a question?

I hear hints of Jyotsana in your comment which I answered above. Again, i'm not making the argument that anyone needs to be responsible for 'warning' anyone about the content of these pieces, that is generally common knowledge among those who take the classes, I'm asking what it's worth is as a vehicle of cultural education for non-hindu desis and desis not brought up on Hindu mythology.

This is all a private sector effort, they can do what they please. It's not like the government is forcing this on anyone. There's certainly nothing wrong with your offering criticism or examining it, but there's nothing you're offering in its place (so far).

but there's nothing you're offering in its place (so far).

From what in my piece were you inferring that I wondered about an alternative to Bharatanatyam (I think you are supplying a question that I never asked)? I think it's wonderful but that there are problems which need to be unpacked in order for it to be of more utility to all of us.

I'm asking what it's worth is as a vehicle of cultural education for non-hindu desis and desis not brought up on Hindu mythology.

I'm going to assume there's not a whole lot of Muslims in these classes. There may be some Jains, and at most a few Sikhs. Also possibly some Indian Christians. Now, on the one hand, you seem to imply that these classes are poorly done and ineffective in their main goal...which is to transmit Bharatnatyam. If that's true, isn't it also likely the heavy Hindu imagery is also failing to get through? Mostly people take these classes because their parents force them. I doubt many of them take it that seriously to really delve into the hinduness of it. But I could be way off.

I think it's more interesting that so many northern Indian families in the USA adopted this southern Indian artform as a vehicle of cultural transmission for their kids.

but there's nothing you're offering in its place (so far).

the fact that he is keeping track/tab of the "news" and doing a critical analysis is nayagar's offering. otherwise he wouldn't be caring a dime about tammy's exposition on a purely hindu activity.

Nayagan, peace. I just felt like you were mocking an easy target, classes which busy, harried parents cling to in a desperate attempt to instill SOMETHING into their kids... but I see that your heart is in the right place. I just feel this whole issue could be looked at a bit more compassionately.

But I could be way off

When you make that many assumptions in one paragraph, you're eventually going to run into that problem.

I think it's more interesting that so many northern Indian families in the USA adopted this southern Indian artform as a vehicle of cultural transmission for their kids.

not what I was shooting for, but if you have some meaningful insight--do share.

not related to the post at all. just a segvay off the author's nom-de-plume. i was traveling to bangalore in an inter-state bus some time back. it was an overnight trip and we were tearing into the night - a private bus company - nothing fancy but clean and comfortable. the music was on. i was enjoying the ambience and the proximity of people. this song came on and it was just magical. totally mellowed out the whole bus. Oi love people :-)
next time you go to india folks, lose the cell phone and just take a trip - anywhere.
g'nite and hope yu enjoy the song.

When you make that many assumptions in one paragraph, you're eventually going to run into that problem.

Touche. Anyway apologies if I came across too heavy-handed.

36 · Nayagan

there are problems which need to be unpacked in order for it to be of more utility to all of us.

This was a very interesting and well-done post, and I look forward to future ones, but I must confess that I'm getting a bit confused here. If a Hindu-infused cultural practice is problematic for "all" of us, why should the necessary "unpacking" focus on the cultural practice, rather than on the socio-political construction of the "all of us" (i.e., desi/South Asian). I cert. have no objection (and see some advantage) to using, in general parlance, those terms, but it strikes me as a bit odd to reify them to the extent that they provide a principled critique of classical dance (yes, I know it's not so central, etc. as post #14 points out). Or am I missing something?

I really want to hear from students /teachers/performers/admirers/critics of classical indian art forms who did not travel the easy route via acculturation in Hindu mythology.

I don't understand how it's the 'easy route'? What else are you looking for? There are a lot of people who don't give much thought or respect to bharata natyam as a dance form or spiritually and just think of it as a weekly hanging-out-with-friends session or another extracurricular activity, but there are quite a few people who are very dedicated and talented. Dedicating yourself to this for most of your life is a whole lot harder than joining the bhangra team in college, that's for sure.

I know some Christians, Jains, and Sikhs who learn bharata natyam. (The diaspora group that's really taken it up based on what I've seen, though, is Indo-Caribbeans, which is interesting, to add on to what Amitabh said about how north Indians are taking on this south Indian classical dance.) It's a difficult situation when our idea of what our 'desi roots' is so intertwined with Hindu stories and symbols. It's easier for Hindu parents in this way, I guess, but if non-Hindu parents have a problem with it, it's up to them to find or provide other avenues of 'discovering roots' for their children.

Dedicating yourself to this for most of your life is a whole lot harder than joining the bhangra team in college, that's for sure.

You think this thillana is tough? Try this thillana!

It's a difficult situation when our idea of what our 'desi roots' is so intertwined with Hindu stories and symbols.

I think nala hits upon the root of the conflict here.

Imo, the problem is with the colonial definition of hindiusm as a religion. Whether you are christian or muslim or sikh or jain of Indian origin, historically, your ancestors were associated with many of the art forms that are now called "hindu"---and it is even likely your ancestors contributed to them. There is no reason to disown them just because some foreign guy with a short attention span decided it wasn't yours a century back. And conversely, someone who is "hindu" and doesn't care for bharatnatyam has no right over it as well.

I have said it before on this site, but again---art, especially fine art of the caliber of bharatnatyam, belongs to whoever claims and wants them. To argue this is a hindu only and getting offended is as ridiculous as someone arguing Pasteurization is catholic and getting offended by it (if you didn't know, Pasteur was a die-hard catholic, and his motivation behind the discovery of this process was religious).

To see carnatic/hindustani compositions as prayer is again narrow-minded and plain silly---given their depth and musical intricacies, it is like missing the forest for the trees. You should go by Sheik Chinna Moulana, Ustad Bismillah Khan, and several other stalwarts like them for why the "divinity" in music and art is common to all.

Besides bharatnatyam is expression. Nothing stops anyone from using it to tell stories from the bible/koran/pastafarianism (agreed in the last case, you may have to invent some mudra for pirates).

art, especially fine art of the caliber of bharatnatyam, belongs to whoever claims and wants them.

I fully agree. Bharatanatyam is truly wonderful. An evening filled with mellifluous music and nuanced moves of "screwing the light bulb" and "feeding the chickens" has often helped to cure my spells of insomnia.

*ducking to avoid nayagan's capoiera moves*

47 · bytewords

And conversely, someone who is "hindu"

C'mon, now--quotes are necessary??!! This blog is going to wind up pushing me to affiliate with the BJP!

48 · Rahul said

art, especially fine art of the caliber of bharatnatyam, belongs to whoever claims and wants them.

I fully agree. Bharatanatyam is truly wonderful. An evening filled with mellifluous music and nuanced moves of "screwing the light bulb" and "feeding the chickens" has often helped to cure my spells of insomnia.

*ducking to avoid nayagan's capoiera moves*

I can't capoiera. Not even after downing a few capirinhas. Aren't you referring to a certain former management consultant and one of the best stand-up routines currently running?

Bytewords, Nala, I will get to your points/questions on the morrow (after I dispose of the marrow.)

what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’

Why is so abhorent for non-hindu Indians to be told that Hanuman or Hinduism is a part of their hertitage?
When the largest Muslim country propogates its hindu ties to hinduism in just about every sphere, why do you feel compelled to whitewash traces of hinduism, from what is essentially, a hindu art form?

totally with you, bytes.

It's a difficult situation when our idea of what our 'desi roots' is so intertwined with Hindu stories and symbols.

I don't think that's a difficult situation for Hindus. It could certainly be a problem for non-Hindus. But I think in the diaspora you can see how different groups have handled it. Most ABD Sikhs are not too familiar with Hindu mythology or epics (unlike Sikhs in India, who just grow up with that surrounding them as part of the general culture). ABD Sikhs are raised with a more or less 'straight-up' Sikhi, bereft of a lot of Hindu cultural baggage that you might find in India. Most ABD Muslims are completely unfamiliar with any Hindu motifs and seek their identity more in a broader Islamic culture. When they think of their 'desi' roots, they have desi Muslim cultural trappings in mind (which do, however, often have Hindu elements, for example wedding customs).

And conversely, someone who is "hindu"

C'mon, now--quotes are necessary??!! This blog is going to wind up pushing me to affiliate with the BJP!

no offense meant---it is only to include ppl like me who will self-identify as hindu even though we may not fit anybody's notions of what hindu is.

54 · bytewords

no offense meant---it is only to include ppl like me who will self-identify as hindu even though we may not fit anybody's notions of what hindu is.

No offense taken--I just wanted to point out that this discussion was leaning a bit far in one direction.

Most ABD Sikhs are not too familiar with Hindu mythology or epics (unlike Sikhs in India, who just grow up with that surrounding them as part of the general culture).

Although, there is Hindu imagery and reference to Hindu myths in the Guru Granth Sahib...but most of the time it is reinterpreted to illustrate the principles of Sikhism. The Sikh Gurus used the existing cultural matrix (which included Islam as well) to make their point.

I think there is some syncretism in N. Indian music due to Kabir and the interplay of bhakti/sufism, but it is hard for me to imagine bharatnatyam outside of a Hindu temple environment. Are the epics, even when interpreted as literature devoid of religious Truth, part of desi christian/muslim life ?I don't think so. I think because Hinduism was pretty much eradicated in places like Indonesia outside of Bali, it is no longer a threat and good Muslim artists can work with elements of the Ramayana without fear of "reverting". Ditto for Scandinavians who keep their Norse sagas alive without fear of returning to Odinism. Not so for minorities in India, they probably feel that any participation in these art forms may lead to reversion/committing idolatry. But it is also important to note that while the themes referred to by bharatnatyam are part of a wider Hindu culture, the dance itself is not. It was specific to hereditary musicians/devadasis patronized by Tamil feudal communities and not something for "respectable women" until fairly recently (i.e. last 60 yrs). This isn't some widely practiced social dance like garba/dandia raas

I don't think that's a difficult situation for Hindus. It could certainly be a problem for non-Hindus. But I think in the diaspora you can see how different groups have handled it. Most ABD Sikhs are not too familiar with Hindu mythology or epics (unlike Sikhs in India, who just grow up with that surrounding them as part of the general culture). ABD Sikhs are raised with a more or less 'straight-up' Sikhi, bereft of a lot of Hindu cultural baggage that you might find in India. Most ABD Muslims are completely unfamiliar with any Hindu motifs and seek their identity more in a broader Islamic culture. When they think of their 'desi' roots, they have desi Muslim cultural trappings in mind (which do, however, often have Hindu elements, for example wedding customs).

Right, but by 'our' I meant South Asians as a whole, because that's what I think Nayagan is getting at. I don't see anything wrong with bharata natyam being so infused with Hinduism, because I think ultimately it's about the dance, and you don't have to be a Hindu or brown to perform well and transmit that, though I do think you would need to 'let yourself go' a little (or a lot) and let yourself 'feel it' (wow, I'm sorry about all these corny phrases, I really am, but I can't think of how else to say it right now). If someone wanted to try to tell the story of Christ's resurrection through bharata natyam, that would be truly avant garde, and I'd actually be really interested in it. And I think while it's easier for Hindus to 'connect with their roots' in this way, the flip side is that in America it's harder to gauge what it actually 'means' spiritually to be Hindu in a way that it isn't for Sikhs/Muslims/Christians [in my opinion, in my experience, etc.].

I agree with what you suggested above, Amitabh- that these dance classes, while they have Hindu roots, aren't really seen as a religious thing so much as another extracurricular activity by the girls who are forced to go by their parents from a young age. It's much more about bonding with your peers and dressing up (which becomes a pain after a while) and performing at cultural events. *shrug* I'm more of a kuchipudi fan...

58 · nala in America it's harder to gauge what it actually 'means' spiritually to be Hindu in a way that it isn't for Sikhs/Muslims/Christians [in my opinion, in my experience, etc.].

Maybe I am really out of the loop, but could you say more about this? Christians, yes, for obvious reasons of it being the majority religion here--but--maybe I am a foolishly happily ensconced ABD Hindu, but why is it easier for Sikhs (fewer of them than Hindus in the US) or Muslims (have to deal with the whole GWoT thing) than for Hindus?

Maybe I am really out of the loop, but could you say more about this? Christians, yes, for obvious reasons of it being the majority religion here--but--maybe I am a foolishly happily ensconced ABD Hindu, but why is it easier for Sikhs (fewer of them than Hindus in the US) or Muslims (have to deal with the whole GWoT thing) than for Hindus

There is a larger Muslim community in the U.S., for desi Muslims to be a part of. And I feel like the nature of Sikhism and Islam make it easier for those religions to 'adapt' to the U.S. framework. Just anecdotally I've seen more people with 'strong' Sikh and Muslim identities than I have people with 'strong' Hindu identities. Of course we can get into what it means to have a 'strong' identity, especially within different religions that aren't really 'religions' at all, but I think we did that on a thread last week or the week before.

Oh and while there may be more Hindus than Sikhs in the U.S., Sikhs make up a disproportionately larger percentage of the population, and they're more homogenous (i.e. mostly Punjabi) than Hindus.

You think this thillana is tough? Try this thillana!

Rajni makes it look so easy, but he ain't got nothin' on my man Kamal.

>>..added fuel to the “All Things Come From India fire..

LOL!

Here's some fire extinguisher.
"Yes, I've heard - the bomb is in the Vedas [ancient Hindu scriptures]. It might be, but if you look hard enough you'll find Coke in the Vedas too."

More fuel to the fire- here.

I think confusion arises because Hinduism was not really one big organized religion. A lot of the practices serve dual purposes as cultural and religious practices. This explains why agnostics and atheists from Hindu families will happily take part in dances, rituals and reading all the stories. The same applies to some of the Indian Christians. I know some who have no problem indulging in Hindu related stuff because it is also a cultural thing. This analogy may not be perfect, but I see this as similar to many of us celebrating Christmas even though many of us do not believe in Christianity.

I loved reading all those Amar Chitra comics as a kid. What would be cool if someone did an anime version of Mahabharata for the older teens. Imagine the freedom in which they could depict those stories in such a format.

What exactly constitutes ‘respect’ for your heritage?

What do you think constitutes 'respect' for your heritage?.

Can a clumsy portrayal of a monkey mean that you’re disrespectful of said heritage (given that your chosen medium of ‘respecting’ is dance)?

I don't think so. First of all, No 'believing' Hindu thinks of Hanuman as just a 'monkey', but as an example of someone who is extremely wise and devoted to his superior.

Why do we entrust such an apparently important task, this cultural education, to strangers?

Yeah, why not.

Bharatanatyam is suffused with Hindu mythology and the pieces are often set to Hindu songs and bhajans—what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

First we need to understand the history behind the art. Bharathanatyam was confined to Hindu temples and was maintained/propagated by the group of "Devadasis/nattuvanars/etc..etc.." who are supported by the grants from the temples. With the revolutionary churnings in the freedom movement and the associated reform movements in Hinduism, "Devadasi system" was banned and in order to preserve the art form it was taken out of temples and given some respectability. (Note: The "aura" and "respect" given to Bharathanatyam is much recent, infact the Tamil word for prostitute is derived from the Devadasis.. But, that's a different story. :-) )

It is quite obvious that Bharatanatyam is a "Hindu art form" and hence would have a lot of "hindu imagery". I think the confusion lies elsewhere, in mixing up Indian and Hindu culture and further adding "progressive South asian" ideas to it. :-)

But it is also important to note that while the themes referred to by bharatnatyam are part of a wider Hindu culture, the dance itself is not. It was specific to hereditary musicians/devadasis patronized by Tamil feudal communities and not something for "respectable women" until fairly recently

I am not sure what you mean by that. Whether respectable or not, devsdasi's in the South were temple dancers (literally 'servants of god'). And temples naturally were a certainly focal point of the wider hindu culture.

Did you mean to say that learning bharatnatyam was not widely practiced among hindus. (But then again, it still isn't -- from what I have seen it is mainly practised by a handful of communities, just different ones)

Bharatnatyam is definitely a Hindu art form.

The poses and movements are all symbolic of religious ideas and Hindu mythological events.

The dance itself is a reenactment of Nataraja (literally, "Dancing Lord")whwo is Shiva when he is creating and destroying the world through dancing.

Indian culture and Hinduism are intertwined and anyone who immerses himself into Indian culture is inevitably going to get a dose of Hinduism. Non-Hindu Indians need to realize this and get over it. Many non-Hindu Indians decide they are going to embrace their Indian roots while avoiding Hinduism. This leads them to start "de-Hinduizing" inherently Hindu things like Diwali and now Bharatnatyam.

Hindus don't own Bharatnatyam and anyone who wants to practice is free to do so. But it is intellectually dishonest and insulting to Hindus to drain all Hindu significance from Bharatnatyam.

This is a really weird post with some definite hints of self-loathing and also just plain cussedness. Yes, of course, this kind of training is going to be quite limiting and limited to just a few simplified aspects of indian culture.

So what? I mean what are you comparing this to? A graduate program on south asia at some fancy US college? Maybe our friend Nayagan needs to get out of the SM bunker sometimes and get to see the real world a little.

I'm waiting for muralimannered's comments on this thread.

Where are you?

68 · Al beruni said

Maybe our friend Nayagan needs to get out of the SM bunker sometimes and get to see the real world a little.

Maybe our nayagar has to get his answers from indian president kalam who plays the veena which is played by goddess saraswati.

14 · Aniruddhan Vasudevan said

This sort of a successful nationalization of a regional and religious art form and giving it such airs of antiquity when it is - as any of us with a sense of 20th century Indian history would know - a 'revived' and 'reformed' version of 'Sadir,' performed primarily by Devadasis of south India. some 70 or 80 years back, it was not a tradition any of the middle classes were even peripherally proud of, let alone practice. Was it Derek Walcott who wrote "I am not a tree with my root in the soil"?!

Tussle between reformation and rejection. Nothing wrong in upliftment/morphing of an art form to higher levels however degenerated it had been in the past.

some 70 or 80 years back, it was not a tradition any of the middle classes were even peripherally proud of, let alone practice.

I think we're forgetting one important thing...in India, 'entertaining' people has always been looked down upon. Respectable families never wanted their children to perform for the entertainment or amusement of others. It was something you paid more 'lowly' people to do. There are entire (generally 'lower') castes devoted to singing or doing magic or acrobatics, or playing an instrument or being purveyors of folk culture, etc. While typically the upper castes' or the land-owning castes' involvement was more passive (i.e. they formed the audience and they were the patrons). A lot of things which in actuality are very highly developed, very skilled artforms, were enjoyed yet at the same time looked down upon.

Are the epics, even when interpreted as literature devoid of religious Truth, part of desi christian/muslim life ?I don't think so.

The epics may not play a big part in the lives of India's minority communities today, but that wasn't necessarily the case in the past. For example, the Meos, who are a Muslim community, have their own version of the Mahabharata, and Tamil Muslims were once among the preeminent interpreters of the Kamban Ramayana.

what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

I don't see a problem as a lot of non Hindu desis have had ancestors for which this was their heritage. Just like most people who live here follow a Judeo Christian cultural tradition regardless of what religion they belong to, I do not see a problem with that. I know a lot about Christianity, even if there is a lot more for me to know and I dont believe in Christianity one bit. You do not have to believe in Hinduism to relate to some entities which can be construed cultural by some instead of religious.

67 · JGandhi said

The dance itself is a reenactment of Nataraja (literally, "Dancing Lord")whwo is Shiva when he is creating and destroying the world through dancing

Maybe off-track but nayagar can you tell me why US bomb testing laser was called as Shiva ? Just as in that case, but more so in art, culture and religion there is always a churning force called appropriation. Probably art studs amongst SM readers would come up with better explanation or equivalent technical term for appropriation ?

By the way, as a little kid, I found all the Indian type stuff at these gatherings boring as hell. It's only when I went to India and my older relatives would tell me stories about all these Hindu gods, and the history of the family and how it related to the freedom movement, I would get very much into learning more about India. The thing I feared the most at the Indian parties, especially in the NJ-NY area were those poojas and some dance by the kids of the host family. BOOOOOORING. It just seemed forced and lacking joy. I always wondered why more of these parents didnt take their kids to India more often like a good field trip and show them around the country unsheltered.

69 · lifelong said

I'm waiting for muralimannered's comments on this thread.

Where are you?

teehee

57 · louiecypher said

Are the epics, even when interpreted as literature devoid of religious Truth, part of desi christian/muslim life ?

31 · Rajni the Monkey said

English only please. This is America.

This is probably the reason why we have all these cultural activities. Our uncles and aunties don't want to give up whatever is remaining of their "diverse" identity in the melting pot of homogenization. It is like every town in US you go to and shopping complex looks the same everywhere.

http://www.drbarboza.com/

Nala: "If someone wanted to try to tell the story of Christ's resurrection through bharata natyam, that would be truly avant garde, and I'd actually be really interested in it"

Heck..You can even tell Harry Potter story with Bharatnatyam. :-) It's been done!

67 · JGandhi said

Indian culture and Hinduism are intertwined and anyone who immerses himself into Indian culture is inevitably going to get a dose of Hinduism.

81 · Nina P said

Even today's Hinduism is bound up with Islam. Ideas about the presentation of women are very much influenced by Muslim ideas about "covering up" and downplaying feminine curves to display modesty

Maybe more in North India. I would like to know more about how Muslim culture has influenced in South India.

Aare va! Broad sweeping cynicism sopping with irreverent oversimplification are the makings of an excellent critique! You're too cool for dance school! So I suppose when people refer to the "hip hop movement" they mean like Jigga what Jigga who? Or maybe Bob Marley should have saved Redemption Song for his 13 children cause cultural edumacation is best kept within the fam (illegitimate or otherwise) – after all anyone with dreds should realize that if their locks are frizzy rather than carefully matted then they clumsily undertook their homage to the heritage... I've seen some whiteys do this, although whoah wait, don't the Hindus own that one originally?
Nayagan, if your article was a comedic first entry satirizing a completely ignorant and holier-than-hindu authority on what makes for cultural preservation, you were right on the money honey.

"For most items outside of mostly natya Thillanas and mostly natya Jathiswarams, most items (padams, varnams, kirtanams etc.) are all about Hindu mythology--stories that largely do not address the histories of other religious communities which have ebbed and risen over time (there may certainly be songs/bhajans about this diversity/practice of tolerance but aside from Vaishnava Janatho, I know of none that have been choreographed into items). You should also know that Bharatanatyam, in particular, draws a very diverse student population--it's not all about desis anymore."

most students at convent schools in India are hindu or non-christian. what is it like for them to have sing hymns that definitely do not address their gods or their religious histories despite going to a school that draws from a diverse student population? should the school change the annual nativity play to include krishna, mohammed and buddha? most gospel clubs at colleges in the u.s. are open to anyone - anyone who wants to sing praises to jesus that is. they don't change their songs to accomodate people of other faiths, as far as i know. so how do non-christian minority students in the u.s. feel when they constantly hear of the judeo-christian heritage of the u.s.?

i suppose the non-hindu students of bharatanatyam feel the same as the non-christian students at convent schools in india - their parents chose to send them there for a particular reason, their eyes and minds are opened to other people's sacred/profane culture/beliefs and they are open-minded and secure enough to expose their children to that without feeling they have to give up their own beliefs. For those whom yoga and bharatanatyam are the devil incarnate, i assume they do not send their children to these classes. like it or not, hindu/indic arts (where the separation of the sacred/profane is hard to demarcate and are as entwined with india and is the common heritage of that area as much as westerners laud greco-roman civilization as the bedrock of theirs, even if they live in the united states and it originated a mere century ago) is the dominating bedrock of indian civlization, whether it originated centuries ago or more recently. the numbers make it so. i have no doubt that one day we will see 'Praise Bhaaratanatyam", akin to praise moves, the usurpation of yoga by christian fundamentalists who want the moves but disingenuously separate them from their origins and change their meaning. i've even been to yoga ashrams where the words india/sanskrit are never mentioned because the teachers seem embarrassed by it. they're still shamelessly profiting from yoga though.

81 · Nina P said

Indian culture and Islam are also intertwined. Even today's Hinduism is bound up with Islam. Ideas about the presentation of women are very much influenced by Muslim ideas about "covering up" and downplaying feminine curves to display modesty. Pre-Mughal Indian art is radically different from post-. As Hindutvas get hysterical over a voluptuous depiction of Sita as "un-Hindu" and disrespectful, they are in fact defending historically Muslim cultural ideas.

I agree. Islam changed Indian culture, thereby changing Hinduism. Every time I speak Gujarati I use Arabic and Persian words. But I do not support eliminating "Islamic influences", I am complaining against people draining Hinduism from essentially Hindu practices.

Muslims and Christians can do Bharatnatyam and deserve as much respect as Hindus who do it. But don't pretend your doing a secular "Indian" dance when you are doing what is essentially a Hindu ritual.

i also agree with nina about the intertwining of indian culture and islam in some parts of india. this is true of christianity in some parts of india. this is all shared heritage to a certain degree, but also not shared culture to a certain degree. i met a woman from goa, a catholic, who had zero knowledge of hinduism despite living in india all her life and she had no desire to really know anything. her cultural touchstone and civilizational heritage lay in the west, she proudly said. there are probably many hindus who don't know anything about christianity/islam and don't care to. likewise, as the numbers of hindus/buddhists/sikhs grow in the united states, there are lots of christians/jews/muslims who could care less. which is why when there are opportunities for young children to learn parts of their own/other's heritage without being forced to, no matter how cheesy it looks, what's the problem? as long as the bharatanatyam teachers aren't insulting their non-hindu students and making them feel that their beliefs are any less worthy.

I agree. Islam changed Indian culture, thereby changing Hinduism. Every time I speak Gujarati I use Arabic and Persian words. But I do not support eliminating "Islamic influences", I am complaining against people draining Hinduism from essentially Hindu practices.

Muslims and Christians can do Bharatnatyam and deserve as much respect as Hindus who do it. But don't pretend your doing a secular "Indian" dance when you are doing what is essentially a Hindu ritual.

i have no doubt that one day we will see 'Praise Bhaaratanatyam", akin to praise moves, the usurpation of yoga by christian fundamentalists who want the moves but disingenuously separate them from their origins and change their meaning. i've even been to yoga ashrams where the words india/sanskrit are never mentioned because the teachers seem embarrassed by it. they're still shamelessly profiting from yoga though.

Has the statute of limitations on cultural adaptations now expired? Why didn't I get the memo, goddammit? I really should stop listening to those Indian bands. V are NOT rockstars!

87 · Rahul said

I really should stop listening to those Indian bands. V are NOT rockstars!

Rahul how about this - I wanna be a rockstar

"Has the statute of limitations on cultural adaptations now expired? Why didn't I get the memo, goddammit? I really should stop listening to those Indian bands. V are NOT rockstars!"

why? did they not dedicate indian rock and all rock, past and present, solely to lord shiva? :)

87 · Rahul said

Has the statute of limitations on cultural adaptations now expired? Why didn't I get the memo, goddammit? I really should stop listening to those Indian bands. V are NOT rockstars!

There is a difference between cultural adaptation and historical revision. If Christians want to do Bharatnatyam in churches or concert halls, fine. If Sufi music artists want to make Bharatnatyam music videos, thats also fine. But don't deny the obvious Hindu origins and Hindu symbology of what you are doing. Don't pretend that Bharatnatyam is "Indian, not Hindu".

Portraying Monkeys Is Paramount in Preserving Our Culture

If only this article had appeared a week earlier, Harbhajan could've used it in his defense, and the spirit of cricket would be just fine and dandy right now. I mean, if Ponting just needs a bit of tightening up, all the Indian team needs is some good cultural brochures they can distribute, right?

There is a difference between cultural adaptation and historical revision. If Christians want to do Bharatnatyam in churches or concert halls, fine. If Sufi music artists want to make Bharatnatyam music videos, thats also fine. But don't deny the obvious Hindu origins and Hindu symbology of what you are doing. Don't pretend that Bharatnatyam is "Indian, not Hindu".

But we're allowed to "pretend" that all the Mughal customs we've now appropriated (Nina points out an excellent example upthread, something that I think many Indians are not aware of, or choose to ignore) are Hindu, not Indian? Or that the rampant rewriting of the Mahabharata and Ramayana right to incorporate favored cultural themes whenever invaders overran North India are native? The only difference I can see between these terms you use is timelines, and who the winners are.

JGandhi

You show little in the way of knowledge about the art form and how it’s actually practiced, so I’ll give you some leeway here. If you wish to ‘de-hinduize’ bharatanatyam, or insert that agenda into my post, feel free to do so! (Just don’t expect any response)

Al beruni

I’m glad that some peoples’ Hindutva pots are sufficiently stirred to respond (not louiecypher). Again, I’m not talking about the limitations, I asked the mutineer community to come forward and share their experiences. Apparently this is an invitation for Hindu fundies of all stripes to bravely rail against arguments that I never made.

Who are you, Al Beruni, to question my credibility when it is you who cannot tell a sarrukal aduvu from an asamyutha hastha? I’ve danced, sung and performed on stage, in black-box theaters and at outdoor festivals. What I see is a tremendous diversity among BN students and I wondered how the non-traditional students were faring. Since you’re not one of them, or interested in meaningful discourse, this will be my first and last response to you.

58 · nala

you’ve more or less hit what I’ve been thinking of, regarding the conflict between what is essentially a very Hindu art form and adherents who are either not Hindu or not acculturated sufficiently. In order to be a great dancer, to project emotion without making a sound, one must ‘feel it’—the spiritual component of dance, which is why it is sometimes (especially in the Natya Shastra) considered a form of meditation. I was interested in how the non-traditional students negotiate this passage.

69 · lifelong

he’s closer than you think, just follow your nose.

44 · nala

The ‘easy route’ refers to those who come by Bharatanatyam after Hindu acculturation. There is nothing easy about life as a dancer.

43 · rob

The reason I’m focusing this ‘unpacking’ on the cultural side is because the demographic reality of BN classes has started to change —from being 100% ABD Hindu-identified kids to anyone who cares to join. You wouldn’t believe the following that a single decent BN performer can get just by doing a lecture-demonstration for dance major students at any university. I think we can no longer focus on the discursive construction of ‘community’ when the classroom is becoming more heterogeneous—the tools to expand the BN canon are there and we should be using them.

An evening filled with mellifluous music and nuanced moves of "screwing the light bulb" and "feeding the chickens" has often helped to cure my spells of insomnia.

I am complaining against people draining Hinduism from essentially Hindu practices.

I'm shamelessly mixing a bit of "sprinkler", with "screwing the light bulb", some "funky chicken" with "feeding the chickens" and no one can stop me!
Mhaw haw haw(maniacal laughter)

http://narthaki.com/nforum/messages/6738.html

Amusing that I am seeing this at a time when my teenager identifies himself as a Hindu-American, I think it is a really brilliant term! He goes to India every year and loves it. He says, he is American first and last.

67 · JGandhi said

Non-Hindu Indians need to realize this and get over it. Many non-Hindu Indians decide they are going to embrace their Indian roots while avoiding Hinduism. This leads them to start "de-Hinduizing" inherently Hindu things like Diwali and now Bharatnatyam.

Who said we were under it? Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder? I don't think anyone has demanded that Bhartanatyam be stripped of all of its significance and history, which is indisputably Hindu in religion and not just culture, but it sure must be fun to imagine such crucifix-toting barbarians at the gate.

I think the element of divisiveness is when Hinduism, however presented, is described as an all-encompassing and inherent part of one's heritage or history -- i.e., that it is somehow more intrinsically "Indian" than any other religion or community group. This is also how classical arts are presented in the diaspora; bharata natyam and other classical dances from the South are presented as more authentic, indeed, more "Indian," than the folk traditions and classical art in the north. For example, among many in the diaspora, there is a sense that qawwalis are not Indian because they are affiliated with the influence of Islam, whereas kuchipuddi is. Similarly, bhangra is "low art" because it is non-religious folk dance, but garba (which is devotional) is not. Even Diwali, which has different religious and cultural significance for at least three different religious groups, is a battle ground for those who believe diversity somehow chips away at the primacy of Hinduism.

The issue is not, in my opinion, over whether or not non-Hindus can appreciate or dance bharata natyam. The issue is around whether other religious and cultural traditions are allowed space to exist on an equal platform, whether they are respected, and whether they are given equal weight as also authentic parts of the multicultural and multireligious tapestry that makes up "Indian heritage." Sadly, the presentation of Indian identity in the U.S. is often tied up with an exclusivist idea of identity (of which, being non-Hindu diminishes your claim to Indian-ness). If that is what Nayagan is referring to or getting towards, then I think he's absolutely right to point out the frustrating and monolithic dialogue around what constitutes authenticity, heritage, and history in Indian identity.

In every single Bharatnatyam performance I've seen in the US, Ganesha sits in one corner of the stage, and the dancer invariably pays respects to him. I don't remember seeing this in Chennai, for example, but I haven't seen that many performances there. Anyone?

This is also how classical arts are presented in the diaspora; bharata natyam and other classical dances from the South are presented as more authentic, indeed, more "Indian," than the folk traditions and classical art in the north.

Camille,

I'm on-board with the rest of your comment, and this may be true at the discursive level, but my experience has been that the attitude of Kathakali/Kathak/Kuchipudi/Bharatanatyam dancers towards folk dances (of which there are many in the South) is based on the belief (IMHO absolutely correct) that most folk dances are nowhere near as complex as the classical art forms to which they are compared (i can only speak for BN). It wasn't authenticity so much as a sense of superiority--which given your own tastes can vary widely.

97 · Camille said

The issue is not, in my opinion, over whether or not non-Hindus can appreciate or dance bharata natyam. The issue is around whether other religious and cultural traditions are allowed space to exist on an equal platform, whether they are respected, and whether they are given equal weight as also authentic parts of the multicultural and multireligious tapestry that makes up "Indian heritage." Sadly, the presentation of Indian identity in the U.S. is often tied up with an exclusivist idea of identity (of which, being non-Hindu diminishes your claim to Indian-ness).

Well-said, as always.

Camille, here we go now we are back to my all favourite lists -

(A) Cultural, religious, heritage/identity

(a) Hindu heritage
(b) Indian/Desi heritage
(c) Non-Hindu heritage

What are we discussing about Bharatnatyam wrt to above ?

Nayagan,

Responding to this sentiment:

what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

For most items outside of mostly natya Thillanas and mostly natya Jathiswarams, most items (padams, varnams, kirtanams etc.) are all about Hindu mythology--stories that largely do not address the histories of other religious communities which have ebbed and risen over time (there may certainly be songs/bhajans about this diversity/practice of tolerance but aside from Vaishnava Janatho, I know of none that have been choreographed into items). You should also know that Bharatanatyam, in particular, draws a very diverse student population--it's not all about desis anymore.

My response to non-Hindu desis who create this dilemma for themselves - wanting to be desi w/o Hindu influences, is to "get over it." I never suggested that you want to strip Hinduism from Bharatnatyam. I should have expressed that more clearly.

A N N A,

clearly post #47 (bytewords) suggests some people aren't over it.

To argue this is a hindu only and getting offended is as ridiculous as someone arguing Pasteurization is catholic and getting offended by it (if you didn't know, Pasteur was a die-hard catholic, and his motivation behind the discovery of this process was religious).

To see carnatic/hindustani compositions as prayer is again narrow-minded and plain silly---given their depth and musical intricacies, it is like missing the forest for the trees. You should go by Sheik Chinna Moulana, Ustad Bismillah Khan, and several other stalwarts like them for why the "divinity" in music and art is common to all.

Besides bharatnatyam is expression. Nothing stops anyone from using it to tell stories from the bible/koran/pastafarianism (agreed in the last case, you may have to invent some mudra for pirates). (italics added)

i'm busy with some stuff, so cannot elaborate; but for the person who was asking about muslim influence on south indian culture, an article dealing with a specific research question and drawing broader implications on this theme.
http://www.jstor.org/view/00219118/di014696/01p0082h/0
let me know if you can't access this; will try and email you a PDF version.
and this is looks very promising as well. it is taken from here:

Surprising Bedfellows: Hindus and Muslims in Medieval and Early Modern India argues that religious and cultural identities in medieval and early modern India were marked by fluid and constantly shifting relationships rather than by the binary model of opposition that is assumed in so much scholarship

This collection challenges the popular presumption that Muslims and Hindus are irreconcilably different groups, inevitably conflicting with each other. Invoking a new vocabulary that depicts a neglected substratum of Muslim-Hindu commonality, the contributors demonstrate how Indic and Islamicate world views overlap and often converge in the premodern history of South Asia.

97 · Camille said

Similarly, bhangra is "low art" because it is non-religious folk dance, but garba (which is devotional) is not.

I've been to lots of garba functions and I've never heard of it as high art. I've heard described as a folk dance started by Gujarati peasants. I think its pretty obvious garba and bhangra are low art. They don't require any of the physical and intellectual demands of bharatnatyam.

... want to strip Hinduism from Bharatnatyam

Is "strip Hinduism" the kind of dance moves you see in Khajuraho? That's the kind of classical religious art I could perk up for!

"The issue is not, in my opinion, over whether or not non-Hindus can appreciate or dance bharata natyam. The issue is around whether other religious and cultural traditions are allowed space to exist on an equal platform, whether they are respected, and whether they are given equal weight as also authentic parts of the multicultural and multireligious tapestry that makes up "Indian heritage." Sadly, the presentation of Indian identity in the U.S. is often tied up with an exclusivist idea of identity (of which, being non-Hindu diminishes your claim to Indian-ness)."

while that may happen, using this story in the new york times to prove that or illustrate that, is off-beat, in my opinion. after reading it, there is nothing divisive in it, beyond one teenager indirectly equating bharatanatyam with the word indian and the word culture. technically that is true. bharatanatyam is indian and is part of indian culture. but if one wanted to over-analyze the words of an excited teenager, who was naive enough to just answer spontaneously without thinking how her words would affect issues of indian identity, metas and memes.....the article also does not say whether there are any non-indians in the class, much less identify any non-hindus, so again this article is not exactly the best one to use to illustrate those points or as a launching pad for those discussions. Perhaps if a non-hindu or non-indian student had been quoted and they had reflected some sort of ambivalence or unease in their quote, fair enough.

as for bharatanatyam being touted as superior culture to "folk arts" and non-classical dances, again, in the story, the teacher says she also teaches bollywood dance, so she's hardly a cultural snob or stopping other indian dances, be they classical or folk or bollywood from seeking an equal platform. she says nothing derogatory about any other form of indian culture. she says she uses it to deal with a personal loss. there's nothing in the story that points to the girls thinking that bharatanatyam EQUALS Indian dance and is the be-all and end-all of indian civilization. What they're saying is that bharatanatyam is AN Indian dance that makes them feel comfortable, moreso than jazz or tap. if that's a crime, then they are guilty i suppose. but i suspect many of these girls may also be in the teacher's bollywood dance class and would probably say that that also connects them to their roots, and no one would have a problem with that expression of indian identity - except perhaps those tired of bollywood/north indian culture being equated with all things indian, especially in the diaspora. the article doesn't even mention the word hindu once.. at worst it says bharatanatyam is indian culture, not hindu culture.

I wrote a post about a Malayalee Muslim girl who was an award-winning Bharatnatyam dancer almost two years ago, on SM; in it, I included my own "experience" with the dance.

...twenty years ago when I asked for Bharatnatyam lessons, I was scolded so harshly you'd think I'd said "stripper" when asked what I wanted to be when I grew up.

"That is NOT a Christian thing to do," my normally-very-chill Mother snapped. When she noticed my perplexed expression, she tried to explain her reaction.

"It's not just a dance, it is religious. It is very Hindu, and as an Orthodox girl you should understand why you can't participate.

I was still perturbed.

"No one in my family has studied it", she concluded, as if that was the end of that.

That comment thread is relevant to this discussion (and the girl's photograph is just irresistible).

p.s. I totally took BN lessons as soon as I moved out. That wasn't the only area of religious disagreement I had with my Mom; I always wore pottus/bindis and my mom thought those were religious, too. Meanwhile, on my dad's side, my first cousins had arangetrams, so it's interesting how wildly Malayalee Christians can differ on these issues and their significance.

BN is such a gorgeous form of expression. I think the idea of asking the earth for forgiveness before you stomp all over it is profound. I'd totally take it again, if I had a working ankle and an available teacher IN the district.

Is "strip Hinduism" the kind of dance moves you see in Khajuraho? That's the kind of classical religious art I could perk up for!

Sorry I didn't recognize you, nayagan.

Thanks for generating this discussion.

You’ve more or less hit what I’ve been thinking of, regarding the conflict between what is essentially a very Hindu art form and adherents who are either not Hindu or not acculturated sufficiently. In order to be a great dancer, to project emotion without making a sound, one must ‘feel it’—the spiritual component of dance,... The ‘easy route’ refers to those who come by Bharatanatyam after Hindu acculturation. There is nothing easy about life as a dancer. ....The reason I’m focusing this ‘unpacking’ on the cultural side is because the demographic reality of BN classes has started to change —from being 100% ABD Hindu-identified kids to anyone who cares to join. You wouldn’t believe the following that a single decent BN performer can get just by doing a lecture-demonstration for dance major students at any university. I think we can no longer focus on the discursive construction of ‘community’ when the classroom is becoming more heterogeneous—the tools to expand the BN canon are there and we should be using them.

Nayagan,

The issues you describe above are valid concerns to not only Bharatanatyam but is something that dancers of other Indian dance forms wonder about as well. The same issues are raised by some punjabi folk dancers. There are a bunch of universities and private dance troupes that participate in bhangra competitions. A lot of the people participating in them don't know punjabi, aren't punjabi, don't understand the cultural roots of the music, and anglicize the dance by inserting modern beats and music and to some extent some modern, athletic moves. Some dancers feel that this "mass appeal" of bhangra devalues it and takes away from its essence, especially where people don't understand the music.

I'm not trying to compare Bhangra and Bharatanatyam, other than to say, that the issues you raise happen to many forms of music, dance and expression. As Camille indicated, its part of the "frustrating and monolithic dialogue around what constitutes authenticity, heritage, and history in Indian identity". I think that's what happens as part of the immigrant experience, people latch on to whatever is "Indian", just to keep some semblance of culture and try to adapt it to their lives. Whether this adaptation makes it less Indian or less authentic than was intended could be a natural by-product of that. I don't think that those parents or that individual shows less respect for an Indian heritage or dance form, if the original intent is benign and was to simply learn about one own's culture, even if that attempt is ham-handed.

What might be disrespectful to heritage is if that ham-handed approach becomes the mainstream way of interpreting that dance or music, stripped of its original meanings (via Westernizing it). However, I don't know if one can stop that from happening, especially, if one looks at other dance forms from other countries and see how they have been stripped of their original meanings to become simply a "dance". Ex: Flamenco, tango, salsa, bachata, heck, even the polka. I had to learn salsa for a wedding party as a groomsmen, I really didn't care where it came from or why the music developed the way it did. I simply wanted to learn the basics that would allow me to move to the music. Maybe I'm disrespecting a hispanic person's heritage by not learning more but isn't it equally possible that I am respecting my hispanic friend's culture by making even a small effort to learn his culturally preferred choice of dance.

Similarly, the fact that these parents and individuals make a heartfelt effort to learn something about BN is better than them not learning anything at all, even if it means they lose the "Hindu" underpinning. Who knows, it may spur some of them to go out and learn more about it, thus preserving that original meaning.

In order to be a great dancer, to project emotion without making a sound, one must feel the spiritual component of dance, which is why it is sometimes (especially in the Natya Shastra) considered a form of meditation. I was interested in how the non-traditional students negotiate this passage.

...a lofty concept and to some, the ideal,
but you could just dance.

"Although method acting is thought to be the most realistic of techniques it can sometimes present a minor irritation to other actors. Dustin Hoffman once went without bathing and sleeping for two days in order to immerse himself in a role. On seeing Hoffman's condition, Laurence Olivier his co-star in the film, famously asked him, "Why don't you just act?"

Best comment is from the thread that Anna linked to.

Bytewords:

At the same time, like many people say, art is not the preserve of any community. It belongs to whoever appreciates it.

just when i decided to commit to atheism, you come along rahul, and steer me back onto the 'rah-O

portmanteau, just be aware that my path involves much rapturous chanting of "O(m)-MY-GOD!".

An interesting commentary on the meaning of the dance by Louis Malle. Must Watch Its not everyone's Bharatanatyam. Much like Hinduism, a lot of people practice Bharatanatyam without knowing the meaning behind the acts. Those who do, get incredible satisfaction from it.

Nayagan, it may seem like just a extra-curricular activity to you. But the creativity, grace and emotion it requires to perform at the highest level makes you a better person. I recommend you to take some lessons. Those girls dancing with Mrs. Menon are living the best years of their lives. I was once one of them in a different setting.

Here's a "modern" interpretation of Ganesh. I really like it.

How many times Devdas been made apart from SRK-Rai version?

From upperstall:

First, the significance of novella, and subsequent movies

Devdas, based on a popular Bengali novel by Sarat Chandra Chatterjee revolutionized the entire look of Indian social pictures. Rather than just translate one medium to another, PC Barua used the novel as just raw material, creating his own structure and transforming what was purely verbal into an essentially visual form. Avoiding stereotypes and melodrama, Barua raised the film to a level of noble tragedy. The film's characters are not heroes and villains but ordinary people conditioned by a rigid and crumbling social system. Even the lead character Devdas has no heroic dimensions to his character. What we see are his weaknesses, his narcissism, his humanity as he is torn by driving passion and inner-conflict.

First, in 1935, PC Barua made it a movie.

Then,

Devdas has been remade a number of times, New Theatres remade it in Tamil in 1936, it was made twice in Telegu in 1953 and 1974 but the most famous subsequent version was perhaps the one by Bimal Roy who had photographed the earlier version. The film, made in 1955, starred Dilip Kumar, Suchitra Sen and Vyjayantimala as Devdas, Parvati and Chandramukhi respectively. The undercurrent of Devdas runs strong in the central character in both of Guru Dutt's major works - Pyaasa (1957) and Kaagaz ke Phool (1959).

and anglicize the dance by inserting modern beats and music

Jangli Jaanwar, you said the above in regards to bhangra...but it has to be said that although the dancers in the troupes may not always be Punjabi, and the dance moves may not always be authentic, but the creators/producers/DJs who make the music are almost all Punjabi (and almost all Sikh). So if anyone is anglicizing the music, it's young 2nd/3rd gen Sikhs in the UK (for the most part). Which is normal since their music is a fusion of all the various musical influences in their urban lives. That being said, UK bhangra is often more traditional and conservative than a lot of stuff that comes out of India (where the music and lyrics often seem like an afterthought).

I started learning dance (in Madras) when I was 6 and at that time, I did not understand anything -except that I loved the costumes and wanted to learn enough to be able to dance on stage, in those colorful costumes! :) It took me several years of regular class (every Wednesday and Saturday) to begin to really understand and feel the dance.
I now pursue my dance studies here in the mid-west, purely because I enjoy it thoroughly.
I have never understood why desi parents take their children (mostly daughters) to classical dance, with the main hope of "imbibing culture", whatever that means. Culture is the sum total of a lot of things and simply ferrying your daughter up and down to dance class (once a week) may not help. I currently learn dance (Mohiniattam) and I notice, with interest, the attitude of the other, younger students (ages from 6 to about 15) who attend class. The same parents who want their daughters to "respect" their heritage, do not even insist that they wear appropriate clothing for the class! (I'd say that a loose salwar kameez, with a dupatta across on the shoulder and tied around the waist would be appropriate). Why come to dance class in tights and a t-shirt? I can't understand why the teacher does not insist on a dress code, either! Afterall, the same children would not go to, say their balle class dressed in a salwar, right?
I think that in many cases, the parents themselves are not big admirers of classical dance (or music) but the minute they moved from India and the moment they had a child, they felt the strong need to make attempts to "preserve culture".

Back in Madras, I wonder what helped me develop an interest. My parents were/are keen music listeners (carnatic music), but not as much dance enthusiasts. I think that a combination of watching a lot of other dance programs and having inputs from school (stories- familiarity with the Ramayana and Mahabharata, participation in annual day programs, etc) gradually helped me realize what a wonderful dance form Bharatanatyam is.

It would be ludicrous to expect a child in the US to develop such an interest in this art form, because the inputs are so limited (unless you are the daughter of a dance teacher, in which case you get routinely exposed to lots of dance and even if you don't want to, you pick up the dance!).

As a first step, I think parents would do well to speak only in their own language, to their children and try their best to make the children fluent in that language. I know "Mom" and "Amma" are the same, but...somehow, I just don't like the thought of my son (now just a toddler) calling me "Mom!". A lot can be understood about one's culture if one can speak and understand the language first.

Amitabh,

Thanks for the clarification both on the music and the transliteration. (I always thought it was one 'a' in janwar.) The anglicizing of music in Bhangra does come from a desi angle, for the reasons you stated, and I suspect, in an effort to cater to a market that has been exposed to western influences.

JJ

As a first step, I think parents would do well to speak only in their own language, to their children and try their best to make the children fluent in that language.

Thank you.

#80 & #95 - wow! thanks for those links.

BN is such a gorgeous form of expression. I think the idea of asking the earth for forgiveness before you stomp all over it is profound. I'd totally take it again, if I had a working ankle and an available teacher IN the district.

ANNA, aren't you in D.C.?? There have got be like 238794792374 dance teachers in the area.

I think the element of divisiveness is when Hinduism, however presented, is described as an all-encompassing and inherent part of one's heritage or history -- i.e., that it is somehow more intrinsically "Indian" than any other religion or community group. This is also how classical arts are presented in the diaspora; bharata natyam and other classical dances from the South are presented as more authentic, indeed, more "Indian," than the folk traditions and classical art in the north. For example, among many in the diaspora, there is a sense that qawwalis are not Indian because they are affiliated with the influence of Islam, whereas kuchipuddi is. Similarly, bhangra is "low art" because it is non-religious folk dance, but garba (which is devotional) is not. Even Diwali, which has different religious and cultural significance for at least three different religious groups, is a battle ground for those who believe diversity somehow chips away at the primacy of Hinduism.

I've never heard of anyone describe garba/raas as a 'high art,' nor do I think are many people aware of the devotional aspect of it. And I've never seen bhangra or garba be dismissed as 'not Indian.' If anything, they're seen as 'low art' because they originated as folk dances and (theoretically) anyone can dance them (and not well), whereas 'classical' dances require training and are meant to be performed on stage, not danced at a party. I think you're really stretching here to make your point. I know I made that dig at bhangra before, but let me explain where my frustration comes from. I'm a dancer, and the attitudes like the one found in the article, where it's ok to mess shit up and not take it seriously because at least you're 'connecting with your roots,' really annoy me. All the uncles and aunties who come to performances and don't pay attention and spend the entire time gossiping or trying to get their babies to stop crying, but still say, 'Wow great job!' afterwards annoy me even more. And then to top it off there isn't much of an audience or 'market' for classical dance, even your peers (other ABDs) think it's staid and boring (which it is, compared to 'low art' like bhangra and garba/raas, which I also enjoy, but to have another dance form entirely dismissed simply because apparently it's boring is frustrating, and I think it goes along with how northies are seen as more fun and southies are seen as more boring in general), and even the girls who learn dance don't stick around to watch the whole show, it's just about doing their own thing and then hanging out with friends. There's nothing wrong with that, if people would just see it for what it is and not praise just anyone because at least she is 'connecting with her roots.'

I don't think the comparison of qawwali to kuchipudi is analogous. You could compare kathak to kuchipudi since the former was heavily influenced by the Mughals and semi-consciously separated itself from bharata natyam and somewhat distanced itself from Hinduism as a result. I don't think that makes it less Indian, but I do think it makes it more accessible to non-Hindus (I know Muslims who learn kathak who would never be allowed to learn bharata natyam by their parents), and I think people should recognize that aspect of its history (and yes, I think people should recognize the devadasi aspect of bharata natyam's history too). And I don't think that Indian non-Hindus are less Indian, but I do think that Hinduism/Hindu culture and India are intricately tied together, i.e. even 'India' comes from 'Hind' which means the land of the Hindus. So in that sense I think Hinduism is more intrinsically Indian because it 'originated' in India, but I don't think that means anything w.r.t. the followers of any religion and their 'Indian-ness.'

The issue is not, in my opinion, over whether or not non-Hindus can appreciate or dance bharata natyam. The issue is around whether other religious and cultural traditions are allowed space to exist on an equal platform, whether they are respected, and whether they are given equal weight as also authentic parts of the multicultural and multireligious tapestry that makes up "Indian heritage." Sadly, the presentation of Indian identity in the U.S. is often tied up with an exclusivist idea of identity (of which, being non-Hindu diminishes your claim to Indian-ness). If that is what Nayagan is referring to or getting towards, then I think he's absolutely right to point out the frustrating and monolithic dialogue around what constitutes authenticity, heritage, and history in Indian identity.

Ok, I have Indian friends from all walks of life who are part of every religion, and maybe it's a generational/locational thing, but I've never, ever, ever heard of anyone made to feel like they were less Indian because they were not Hindu. This is not to deny people's experiences of this happening, but sometimes I get the feeling that that sort of stuff gets talked about on here more than it actually happens in reality. One of the girls in the article was named Teena Ammakuzhiyil - that sounds like a Malayalee Christian name to me. I was surprised at first by the Christian girls in my classes who would essentially worship in front of Shiva and then go to church, because my understanding was that it 'interfered' with their religion, but they didn't have a problem with it, so I didn't care either.

In order to be a great dancer, to project emotion without making a sound, one must feel the spiritual component of dance, which is why it is sometimes (especially in the Natya Shastra) considered a form of meditation. I was interested in how the non-traditional students negotiate this passage.

...a lofty concept and to some, the ideal,
but you could just dance.

*sigh* Yes, because what we need is more hasty, lifeless performances.

When it comes to bharata natyam and Hinduism, I don't want to see the dance stripped of any religious aspect just for the sake of people (both Hindu and non-Hindu) being able to 'get in touch with their roots,' but that's because I think it of it as an art form that requires you to see the significance of what you're enacting, even if you don't believe in it, and I want to stop seeing shitty performances.

I think that in many cases, the parents themselves are not big admirers of classical dance (or music) but the minute they moved from India and the moment they had a child, they felt the strong need to make attempts to "preserve culture".

I think it's really just a social thing- they see their friends' daughters going, and so they send their daughter too, and once the kids reach puberty the ones who decide they aren't interested in it anymore will stop going, but those friendships will last a lifetime.

As a first step, I think parents would do well to speak only in their own language, to their children and try their best to make the children fluent in that language. I know "Mom" and "Amma" are the same, but...somehow, I just don't like the thought of my son (now just a toddler) calling me "Mom!". A lot can be understood about one's culture if one can speak and understand the language first.

Even harsher to my ears is 'Grandma' and 'Grandpa.'

All the ABD male classical dancers I've met (I can count them on one hand), though, have been amazing. They have to be, to pursue an interest in dance when it's seen as a 'wussy' thing to do. It's interesting in the case of kuchipudi because that used to be performed almost exclusively by men.

and I think it goes along with how northies are seen as more fun and southies are seen as more boring in general)

Northern classical arts are as boring (or not) as southern ones. By the way kathak also originated as a Hindu temple dance, but did undergo evolution in the Mughal court. The roots of most northern Indian raags are Hindu as well, although again there was a Muslim influence there too in the way northern (hindustani) classical music developed. Northern Indian culture is really a composite culture on every level.

Even harsher to my ears is 'Grandma' and 'Grandpa.'

Do you know anyone who actually says this??

Even harsher to my ears is 'Grandma' and 'Grandpa.' Do you know anyone who actually says this??

I do.

I'm shamelessly mixing a bit of "sprinkler", with "screwing the light bulb", some "funky chicken" with "feeding the chickens" and no one can stop me!

Damn, I know a buddy whose entire dance repertoire is the sprinkler move. I wonder if it comes from his midwestern culture, and whether I would be insulting him to appropriate it myself...

Northern classical arts are as boring (or not) as southern ones. By the way kathak also originated as a Hindu temple dance, but did undergo evolution in the Mughal court. The roots of most northern Indian raags are Hindu as well, although again there was a Muslim influence there too in the way northern (hindustani) classical music developed. Northern Indian culture is really a composite culture on every level.

Yeah but southies haven't made their folk dances (like kolattam, I guess) as popular, so when people think of south Indian dance they just think of the classical dances. I'd say kathak is less staid and boring on that level though (maybe it's just to my eyes though, and people unacquainted with any classical dance would still think of it as really boring?), and training in kathak is a lot more useful as a step toward Bollywood-style dancing than training in bharata natyam is. And stop making me jealous of northies and their culture, man...

Do you know anyone who actually says this??

Yeah, one of my cousins, actually. I don't mind if she calls her grandparents (the ones I'm not related to) Grandma and Grandpa since they're very educated and upper-class, but it's kind of weird if she does that with the ones we have in common considering that they don't even speak English.

and training in kathak is a lot more useful as a step toward Bollywood-style dancing

I think Bollywood-style dance is fast losing whatever connection it had to more traditional forms of Indian dance. It's mostly just aping the West now. Although some of the aping is done really well these days.

I think Bollywood-style dance is fast losing whatever connection it had to more traditional forms of Indian dance. It's mostly just aping the West now. Although some of the aping is done really well these days.

So portraying apes is paramount to preserving Bollywood culture? :)

120 · nala said

ANNA, aren't you in D.C.?? There have got be like 238794792374 dance teachers in the area.

Yes, but I don't own a car and I live in the middle of DC. That's why I specifically said, IN the district vs in the area. :) A teacher in midtown is different from a teacher in Lawn Guyland, yes?

It's mostly just aping the West now.

So portraying apes is paramount to preserving Bollywood culture? :)

Racists, the both of you!

Yes, but I don't own a car and I live in the middle of DC. That's why I specifically said, IN the district vs in the area. :) A teacher in midtown is different from a teacher in Lawn Guyland, yes?

Ah ok. And yes midtown and Lawn Guyland are different, but they've both got nothing on teachers in Queens. :)

Seriously, though-- my teacher is very, very traditional, and she hates 'fusion' because she thinks that if you're gonna 'be modern,' you may as well just do filmi-style dancing outright. So I was really surprised and actually kind of aghast when I went to the bharata natyam performance of one of my friends from high school, who had learned at some dance studio in midtown, and saw that their costumes consisted of langa-oni and not even a real bharata natyam costume, their hair was just in a messy braid and not all pinned up. And their performance was weak, too- there wasn't much attention paid to form. Man I sound way too critical, but it's honestly just really frustrating to see something you love messed up so badly. I don't have anything against avant garde performances and putting a more 'modern' twist on bharata natyam with different costumes, etc., but I think to pull it off you'd have to be consciously pulling it in that direction instead of aiming to do something else (like pass it off as 'authentic') and falling very short of that goal.

Nala, I agree with you 100%. The other point is this...the old school artists used to devote their whole lives to these arts. All the classical dancers and musicians, singers etc. practiced and trained from a very young age. It was like a full-time occupation. In order to really excel, not only do you need an excellent teacher, but you need to start young, and devote your life to it.

The fact that now people take it up as just as a hobby, or even if they feel very passionate about it they need to fit it in between a full day at school, homework, and other activities...means that you're not going to get that caliber of artist as you would in the past. In fact the kinds of childhoods most of the greats had would probably be breaking the law today.

Anyone else have a stupid question they'd like to see deleted? Back on topic, thanks.

114 · rasudha said

Nayagan, it may seem like just a extra-curricular activity to you. But the creativity, grace and emotion it requires to perform at the highest level makes you a better person. I recommend you to take some lessons. Those girls dancing with Mrs. Menon are living the best years of their lives. I was once one of them in a different setting.

You should get in the habit of reading the entire post, especially this portion:

These are the buzz-words, the talking points that classical dance instructors often use to describe and justify what is usually just another extracurricular activity for application-filling, college-going, high-school students.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough here but I am attributing this attitude mainly to kids, who like Amitabh and others have commented earlier, are rushed into classes and not able to appreciate it fully. BN is so much more than physical movements--it's a highly personal and dynamic worship.

as to classes, I've taken my fill and danced enough hours (I do not wish to count, but if you're impressed by years of study try the number, '14') for muscle memory to serve me well in case I am drafted for a surprise performance.

The fact that now people take it up as just as a hobby, or even if they feel very passionate about it they need to fit it in between a full day at school, homework, and other activities...means that you're not going to get that caliber of artist as you would in the past. In fact the kinds of childhoods most of the greats had would probably be breaking the law today.

Amitabh,

most of the 'greats,' as you put it, that I know did have very remarkable childhoods. I often wish that Bollywood/Kollywood/Tollywood etc would make a movie about the heady mid-century heyday of Kalakshetra and the incredible amount of amazing artists who came out and established schools/dynasties of their own.

As to a north/south divide, many of the very old items were composed initially in Telugu--which as one of my teachers explained (he had a way with words) was supposed to be the most melodic and flowing of all southie languages. Eventually, as the BN world centered around Chennai, most of the pieces became composed in Tamil. Nowadays, due to the tremendous interest from northie DBD parents, you will see a few non-Tamil pieces at performances and arangetrams.

In the interest of accessibility, I'm hoping that this trend accelerates.

Brij, et al., I'm not arguing that this particular article lays claim to the idea that BN is the only cultural expression seen as valid or authentic within the desi diaspora. I'm using it as an avenue to discuss other trends and comments around the (false) idea of a singular, homogenous desi diasporic identity.

...my experience has been that the attitude of Kathakali/Kathak/Kuchipudi/Bharatanatyam dancers towards folk dances (of which there are many in the South) is based on the belief (IMHO absolutely correct) that most folk dances are nowhere near as complex as the classical art forms to which they are compared (i can only speak for BN). It wasn't authenticity so much as a sense of superiority--which given your own tastes can vary widely.

nala, my commentary is anecdotal, so it's entirely possible that this was more common among my college classmates than it is in the "real people" population. I think people recognize garba is a folk dance, but I have also heard those same groups of people argue vehemently that it is "more authentic" than other (non-devotional) folk dances precisely because it is Hindu, and by extension, more Indian.

And I don't think that Indian non-Hindus are less Indian, but I do think that Hinduism/Hindu culture and India are intricately tied together, i.e. even 'India' comes from 'Hind' which means the land of the Hindus. So in that sense I think Hinduism is more intrinsically Indian because it 'originated' in India, but I don't think that means anything w.r.t. the followers of any religion and their 'Indian-ness.'

I forgot to mention that, as someone who has danced outside of her area of expertise and in other regional folk forms, I love how learning about a "different" group's history and art humanizes communities and builds understanding. Just as art can be used as a divisive piece, it can also be unifying. I think understanding where a dance comes from and its motivation is essential and important. Thus, I think it's fully possible for a non-Hindu to enjoy and convey the emotions evoked in BN, just as I think it's possible for a non-Punjabi to enjoy bhangra or a non-Roman to appreciate sculpture.

I think there's a difference between understanding that Hinduism has had a huge influence on many regions of India (and regional identities) vs. assuming that because something is Hindu it is inherently Indian and vice-versa. I take strident exception to the idea that Hinduism is "more intrinsically Indian" on all counts, particularly because India, in its present united state, is very much a contemporary, secular creation.

I agree, but Hinduism is tied to India in the way that Islam is tied to Arabia I guess (hence you see Muslims in other parts of the world trying to emulate Arab Muslims because they are seen as being more 'authentically' Muslim, especially when compared to the Hindu-ized lepers of South Asia). Even SM covers stories of white Hindus and Sikhs... I'm not saying that Hinduism is intrinsically Indian in the sense where 'India' means the modern-day secular state of India, but it does have roots in the subcontinent which later became India/Pakistan/Bangladesh. Then again, it's difficult to really determine how much of it is religious vs. cultural because of the colonial definition of Hinduism.

125 · nala said

I'd say kathak is less staid and boring on that level though (maybe it's just to my eyes though, and people unacquainted with any classical dance would still think of it as really boring?), and training in kathak is a lot more useful as a step toward Bollywood-style dancing than training in bharata natyam is. And stop making me jealous of northies and their culture, man...

kathak is gorgeous. check out shashwati sen here in ray's 'shatranj ke khiladi.'
and lemuria ain't all bad either, nala :)

FWIW, I actually got really upset at a friend who described India as the 'Hindu version of Pakistan.' :P So I'm far from wanting or seeing India as a Hindu country instead of secular one. But I feel like it would be misleading to deny that Hinduism originated in what is now known as India/South Asia, and therefore has a huge influence on the area as a result of that and is more intrinsically subcontinental (if not Indian) because of that. To me it feels like trying to strip bharata natyam of any spiritual meaning.

But I feel like it would be misleading to deny that Hinduism originated in what is now known as India/South Asia, and therefore has a huge influence on the area as a result of that and is more intrinsically subcontinental (if not Indian) because of that. To me it feels like trying to strip bharata natyam of any spiritual meaning.

139 · nala said

FWIW, I actually got really upset at a friend who described India as the 'Hindu version of Pakistan.'

If anything Pakistan is a Muslim version of India!

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough here but I am attributing this attitude mainly to kids, who like Amitabh and others have commented earlier, are rushed into classes and not able to appreciate it fully. BN is so much more than physical movements--it's a highly personal and dynamic worship

But why every activity should be turned into breaking the world record kind of competitive activity. BN like any other activity can be for fun too. And for the serious minded they can take it to higher levels. The rest can enjoy and just have fun. Why should everybody become the resident expert ?

Maybe it is all a debate of semantics but it is useful to keep in mind there was no "India" before Brtish; there was a loose conglomeration of kingdoms in the sub-continent even before the Mughals and the only thing common was some aspect of Hinduism. So there was nothing like "Indian" culture . Everything was about or related in some way to Hinduism. So in the sense Bharatanatyam is essentially a Hindu activity. Now post Mughal era, post-british era everybody is trying to give syncretic, universal and secular meaning to "cultural activites" amongst the Indians/Desis to define a Indian/Desi identity. And all this debate abt BN is because of this ?

kathak is gorgeous. check out shashwati sen here in ray's 'shatranj ke khiladi.' and lemuria ain't all bad either, nala :)

I agree, it's beautiful! That's a great clip... and yeah I guess lemuria ain't all bad. We've got idlis and stuff... and this is one of my favorite BN-in-film clips.

I think we actually agree on these points :) nala, one day we should meet up and get coffee and then have a kathak-off! (j/k on the very last part)

Yes, we can have madras kappi, but how about dance fighting instead? (kudos to Rahul, I think, for originally posting the link)

But why every activity should be turned into breaking the world record kind of competitive activity. BN like any other activity can be for fun too. And for the serious minded they can take it to higher levels. The rest can enjoy and just have fun. Why should everybody become the resident expert ?

Mental maturity is needed to place your childhood activities in perspective and BN is no different. No art can ever be judged appropriately, especially dance. I really don't know where you're getting this elitist message from but I can't find it in any of my comments or the post itself. Care to elaborate?

nala, one day we should meet up and get coffee and then have a kathak-off!

Is that what the kids are calling it these days? If so, I say, Shabhash, Seriyana potti!

Yes, we can have madras kappi

Rahul, raspberries to you! :P

148 · Camille said

If madras kappi = filter coffee, then unfortunately I cannot partake

!?

125 · nala said

?), and training in kathak is a lot more useful as a step toward Bollywood-style dancing than training in bharata natyam is. And stop making me jealous of northies and their culture, man...

Yeah? Really? Aasha Parekh, Hema Malini, Minakshi Seshadri, Aishwarya Rai forgot that I guess. Indian film dances are substantially based on the Indian 'classical' and 'folk' dances - and in the movies the lines between these supposedly different traditions is all but non-existent. Terukootu a catch-all term for a wide varirty of traditions involves almost the same sort of physical training as does BN. Dr. Padma Subrahmmanyam who probably knows more than anyone alive about the entire corpus of Tamizh dance has conducted entire recitals around these interconnections. BN, Kathak, Kuchipudi are the three most common bases for Indian film dance, and most dance masters are tasrained in one of these, in addition to the basics of ballroom dancing. This is not to say that it is all one undifferentiated mass. Just that these are traditions that are lived out in numerous little ways everyday in a 1000 different homes.

Nayagan - what were your experiences as a male BN dancer like?

*sigh* Yes, because what we need is more hasty, lifeless performances.

Nala, on the contrary. I've seen Teena Ammakuzhiyil dance, and to put it in terms you may relish... She's Catholic but girlfriend dances like a Hindu!

what were your experiences as a male BN dancer like?

I'm sure the descriptions of agarbatti-fueled orgies, out of control swaras into the wee hours of the night, and the gymnastic give and take are really not suitable for narration in mixed company.

Yeah? Really? Aasha Parekh, Hema Malini, Minakshi Seshadri, Aishwarya Rai forgot that I guess. Indian film dances are substantially based on the Indian 'classical' and 'folk' dances - and in the movies the lines between these supposedly different traditions is all but non-existent. Terukootu a catch-all term for a wide varirty of traditions involves almost the same sort of physical training as does BN. Dr. Padma Subrahmmanyam who probably knows more than anyone alive about the entire corpus of Tamizh dance has conducted entire recitals around these interconnections. BN, Kathak, Kuchipudi are the three most common bases for Indian film dance, and most dance masters are tasrained in one of these, in addition to the basics of ballroom dancing. This is not to say that it is all one undifferentiated mass. Just that these are traditions that are lived out in numerous little ways everyday in a 1000 different homes.

Don't get me wrong, I've performed BN & kuchipudi myself. It's just that filmi dancing seems to use kathak-style moves a lot more (even if the actresses are trained in other/many styles of classical dance), namely the spins.

Nala, on the contrary. I've seen Teena Ammakuzhiyil dance, and to put it in terms you may relish... She's Catholic but girlfriend dances like a Hindu!

Uh - my comment wasn't about any one person in particular, it was just a response to your contradiction of Nayagan's statement that someone would need to 'feel' the meaning of the dance to perform it well. I'm glad to hear she dances well, but I'm not so sure I appreciate the insinuation of my 'relishing' her dancing 'like a Hindu' instead of 'like a Catholic' (whatever that means... is it anything like this?) Though that phrase 'like a Hindu' actually reminds me of Tyra & Miss J on America's Next Top Model doing the 'Indian neck-moving thing' back when they did a Bollywood-themed shoot I think. Bad memories!

I'm sure the descriptions of agarbatti-fueled orgies, out of control swaras into the wee hours of the night, and the gymnastic give and take are really not suitable for narration in mixed company.

Oh man Rahul, now you've simply gone too far... prepare for a dance fight! :D

what were your experiences as a male BN dancer like?

It is my advice for males not to take BN classes or become a BN dancer. I have seen a male BN teacher from Kalakshetra, Adyar. He used to come to my uncle's house for teaching his daughter. He is more feminine. And after seeing him and observing the ridicule he gets, my aunt stopped her son from taking BN classes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izv_5g-Y5qc
Not everyone can fight with BN movements

You can take a look at this two videos..

Ajith

and it's

spoof

:-)

I'm sure the descriptions of agarbatti-fueled orgies, out of control swaras into the wee hours of the night, and the gymnastic give and take are really not suitable for narration in mixed company.

Aramandi marathons, atami till you need a chiropractor and unending adavus till puberty don't sound quite so exciting.

Nayagan - what were your experiences as a male BN dancer like?

Looking back, it was probably a great deal easier than it seemed at the time. (It helped (and hurt) that my mother was the teacher) I started dancing only because my 6-year old buddies decided to do so and I was a great follower at that age. By the time they had all given up, I was sullenly stamping out what seemed to be the end of my potential for greatness. It was only after I turned 12 or so that it became somewhat fun (which went along with the whole 'feeling it' process). That party lasted until I went to college and became enamored with acquiring a belly (by Milwaukee's Best/Papa Johns) and being a lazy bum (by the boredom engendered by first-year curriculum--"A River Sutra" made me more incurious than a year of watching 90210 re-runs on the couch). After incurring several injuries by forcing my bloated carcass through some fast-paced items, I gave up and began a long career as a cheeto dust addict.)

157 · Ponniyin Selvan said

what were your experiences as a male BN dancer like?

It is my advice for males not to take BN classes or become a BN dancer. I have seen a male BN teacher from Kalakshetra, Adyar. He used to come to my uncle's house for teaching his daughter. He is more feminine. And after seeing him and observing the ridicule he gets, my aunt stopped her son from taking BN classes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izv_5g-Y5qc
Not everyone can fight with BN movements

Are you serial?

Are you serial?

Did you mean serious??. Maybe it's a cultural thing. It's not "cool" for a boy to learn BN in India. I have seen only girls getting enrolled in BN classes.

It is my advice for males not to take BN classes or become a BN dancer. I have seen a male BN teacher from Kalakshetra, Adyar. He used to come to my uncle's house for teaching his daughter. He is more feminine. And after seeing him and observing the ridicule he gets, my aunt stopped her son from taking BN classes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izv_5g-Y5qc Not everyone can fight with BN movements

I think it's sad that people keep boys from pursuing things they're interested in because they're worried about them being too 'feminine.' I have a male cousin who wanted to learn BN, but his parents kept it from it, and their concerns about him being too 'feminine' were actually compounded by the fact that he's gay (even though he's actually very 'butch' I guess you could say). But in general all the male BN dancers I've met have actually been incredibly sexy (in addition to being incredibly talented). Plus male dancers would pretty much be surrounded by women/girls in dance environments... it doesn't seem like a terrible way to meet girls.

Looking back, it was probably a great deal easier than it seemed at the time. (It helped (and hurt) that my mother was the teacher) I started dancing only because my 6-year old buddies decided to do so and I was a great follower at that age. By the time they had all given up, I was sullenly stamping out what seemed to be the end of my potential for greatness. It was only after I turned 12 or so that it became somewhat fun (which went along with the whole 'feeling it' process). That party lasted until I went to college and became enamored with acquiring a belly (by Milwaukee's Best/Papa Johns) and being a lazy bum (by the boredom engendered by first-year curriculum--"A River Sutra" made me more incurious than a year of watching 90210 re-runs on the couch). After incurring several injuries by forcing my bloated carcass through some fast-paced items, I gave up and began a long career as a cheeto dust addict.)

I probably would've had that problem after going to college too, but I dealt with my weight problem in high school and learned how to keep in shape then. My teacher appreciates us who don't live at home anymore going for lessons during our vacations and occasionally performing during the summers... I want to branch out and learn different styles once I've graduated college and am living (hopefully) in an area with available teachers though.

Are you serial?

Did you mean serious??.

He was making a South Park reference.

I am amazed. Not one questionable Symonds joke in this thread. Where is all that synergy of SM topics?

I am amazed. Not one questionable Symonds joke in this thread. Where is all that synergy of SM topics?

Not very questionable and not really funny, but I tried.

Rahul, #91, it had to be said.

flygirl, is that some bowling, or is that some bowling? Wish I could be watching the game right now. I hope Symonds doesn't profit too much from the Tendulkar drop.

Rahul, mate...I am kicking myself, I can't watch it cos I'm still at work. I am watching the score changes via cricinfo. I have three hours of cell counts ahead of me too. get yourself to a pub and watch it!

symonds gone.

Gilchrist too!

India just got the edge over Australia in the betting markets, even before Gilchrist walked past the boundary ropes! Hilarious!

I have three hours of cell counts ahead of me too

So I assume it's not you holding up the huge "R P Singh I heart you" sign and hooting into the camera?

Rahul, bytewords:

Now you're just being mean. HAH! Three in hand!!!!!!

I propose we move any further commentary to the Pointing thread..

I'm not really adding to the discussion as well as being nitpicky, but there is no West Orange, NY. I'm pretty sure Ms. Menon is located in West Orange, NJ.

Vannakam, Nayagan avargale. As usual, being "a New Orleans girl," I'm days late to the party. (I loved that Jindal statement given that New Orleans has little to do with the rest of America.)

Bharathanatyam lessons - very conflicting for me. I hated them and considered the whole thing some innate, culture-inculcating duty on my parents' part rather than emanating any respect for the art form on their part. It all seemed so perfunctory. You know, "all good girls from Indian families learn BN." Not to fret, ballet, piano lessons, swimming, etc. were thrown into the Well Rounded Mix. If anything, these childhood activities have given me an appreciation for western and eastern classical music, so I guess Mom and Dad are off the hook.

The interesting thing is that a cousin started BN lessons around the same time I did, hated it at first and is now a very accomplished BN dancer and teacher herself. Sometimes it sticks, sometimes it don't.

yeah, I would imagine it would be pretty difficult to teach Hindu mythology to American born desi kids.