This sums up all my earliest experiences with 'my culture'.
1) parents take me to some strange building (the Gandhi Center in St. Louis) to learn about Hindu mythology
2) child goes through the motions, memorizing prayers and songs verbatim
3) parents meet with other Indians in the community, argue whose son is more praise-worthy
4) child leaves, confused and slightly concerned about his culture, resolves to teach his own kids about 'what it means to be Hindu' by subjecting them to the exact same vaguely cultural events.

Which brings us back to d'oh.

vanakkam nayagare!

I am a DBD and when I was in my 9th standard, whenever the whole class showed interest in acting in the school play, my Kannada teacher used to suggest Ramayana as the play. That way, he said, we can enact the attack of the vanara army scene and the added bonus is that we didn't have to practice! Of course it took a few seconds for everyone to realize what he said, get disappointed and then laugh at it (in the first second, everyone got disappointed that they had to play a monkey and that the teacher had just *me* a monkey but immediately afterwards in the second second, everyone started laughing - at someone else - thinking that the teacher just called *him* a monkey). Our brain is wonderful!

This isn't just a phenomenon in Morristown, but in every desi enclave across the United States. And frankly, I think it's up to the individual to decide what their heritage is and what it means to them.

Hanuman was more than a mere monkey. Like when people want to mock Hinduism or the Ramayana, they say, "yeah you people worship monkeys".

First of all, Hanuman is not worshipped as Bhagavan, Ishwar, the SUPREME LORD, God or whatever. Rather he is honored for being the representative of complete bhakti (devotion) and surrender unto God and Goddess, Rama and Sita, in their earthly incarnations.

It's easy to mock people. And there's certainly a lot there to mock if you're so inclined. But what are you offering in its place?

vanakkam nayagare!

Nundri! Nundri!

Greetings Mutineers! I am Nayagan

This Nayagan?

And I think we need a Gurinder Chadha inspired study of the unique melange of South Asian assimilation, conformity, dance, and drive for achievement in her new movie, Strictly Bhalle Room!

9 · Blunt I was also happy to see that all her students are Indian-American.

Ouch. What do you have against our Lankan brothers and sisters?

Nayagar ayya... Neenga nallavara, illa kettavara? :)

8 · Rahul said

Greetings Mutineers! I am Nayagan

This Nayagan?

And I think we need a Gurinder Chadha inspired study of the unique melange of South Asian assimilation, conformity, dance, and drive for achievement in her new movie, Strictly Bhalle Room!

Rahul,

I Yam Hero I Tell You!

some young women find a productive and healthy way to connect to their culture, and of course you all sneer because it comes from the "old guard"

sneering is only the beginning. I asked what it meant to you all and hoped that someone could reply without deploying the platitudes to which I referred. Is anyone up to the task?

9 · Blunt said

Why is there so much haterade on here? So many people on here are always complaining about the difficulty of identity issues etc., and some young women find a productive and healthy way to connect to their culture, and of course you all sneer because it comes from the "old guard"...I was also happy to see that all her students are Indian-American.

You're an expert on haterade, Hillside/Gautham, so you would know. Don't feed the troll, people.

Wonderfully hilarious post! Thanks! As a Bharatanatyam-trained performer and theatre artist, and especially in the enlightenment I have got after a recent, long tour of the US, I am disgusted by this 'tradition' and 'roots' discourse even here in Chennai, let alone the diasporic arts communities whose love for tradition and roots had me choking over each morsel of food. This sort of a successful nationalization of a regional and religious art form and giving it such airs of antiquity when it is - as any of us with a sense of 20th century Indian history would know - a 'revived' and 'reformed' version of 'Sadir,' performed primarily by Devadasis of south India. some 70 or 80 years back, it was not a tradition any of the middle classes were even peripherally proud of, let alone practice. Was it Derek Walcott who wrote "I am not a tree with my root in the soil"?!

Don't worry. For every Teena Ammakuzhiyil who learns Bharathanatyam to get 'back to her roots', there is a Supriya Jindal who likes to be portrayed as follows.

Although she has visited India several times -- including once with Bobby, when he was sent as a congressman on a trade mission -- she says she doesn't feel any particular attachment to the country of her ancestors or any particular sense of comfort when she's there. Nor does she follow the news from India with any particular regularity.

"I think it's interesting. I enjoy traveling and experiencing different things, different cultures. But it's not a direct connection," she says.

"She's a New Orleans girl," Bobby says. "I think that defines her more."

From: Louisiana's new first lady is mom and MBA

Ammakuzhiyil

So, this word literally means "In mom's pit" (whatever that is) in Tamil. Does it have a different connotation/meaning in Malayalam?

15 · jaali

Don't be hating on my hero's wife! Baton Rouge is worth a mass. ;-)

16 · Rahul said

So, this word literally means "In mom's pit" (whatever that is) in Tamil. Does it have a different connotation/meaning in Malayalam?

teehee!

I think -kuzhyil refers to the particular [town?] of origin. It's all matrilineal - which makes Ammakuzhyil pretty ambiguous, but I guess that's what happens when you get to the diaspora, eh eh?

17 · rob said

Baton Rouge is worth a mass. ;-)

zing!

...what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

I reject the word "Auntie" as part of my Hindi heritage.

21 · Rahul said

I reject the word "Auntie" as part of my Hindi heritage

HA HA HA !

20 · jyotsana said

...what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

Nayagare where's the problem in that? When there is no compulsion in this matter, pupils' parents admit their minor children at Bina Auntie's dance school of their own will. Right? And of course if your ancestry can be traced to the Indian subcontinent, this is a part of your heritage. You may accept it or reject it. But it still is.

Jyotsana,

From the legal perspective, they do accept the status quo when they enter the school. Legalities, however, do not a feeling make nor do they satisfy my thirst for honest replies from those affected. I asked that question because performing arts are often marketed as vehicles to cultural re-education, but what education is this? For most items outside of mostly natya Thillanas and mostly natya Jathiswarams, most items (padams, varnams, kirtanams etc.) are all about Hindu mythology--stories that largely do not address the histories of other religious communities which have ebbed and risen over time (there may certainly be songs/bhajans about this diversity/practice of tolerance but aside from Vaishnava Janatho, I know of none that have been choreographed into items). You should also know that Bharatanatyam, in particular, draws a very diverse student population--it's not all about desis anymore.

I really want to hear from students /teachers/performers/admirers/critics of classical indian art forms who did not travel the easy route via acculturation in Hindu mythology.

who did not travel the easy route via acculturation in Hindu mythology.

nayagare, you have given the answer yourself...desis indulge in this way of hindu cultural education/acculturation/connection because other ways are more difficult. this is the easiest way out...

First you should define what you mean by 'culture' and then take offense to the use of Hindu "mythology" (why the term mythology is used and not theology) in spreading the Indian "culture".
So is it Ok if they claim to impart "Hindu culture" instead of "Indian culture" when advertising "bharathanatyam". I don't think anyone is forcing any non-Hindu kids of Indian origin to enroll themselves in "Bharatanatyam" classes.

Rahul,

Thanks for the "lollu sabha nayagan". I was ROFL.. Are you a DBD?. I doubt if any ABD could get the "jokes"/ even the "slang" used.

Naan adichaa nee sethuduve. Now be nice to the guest, at least until his second post.

maan pola vanthavane, yaar adichaaro?

non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

do non-hindu desi indulge in these hindu activities ? not sure they do and if not then your question is redundant.

Yaar adichaaro, yaar adichaaro.

do non-hindu desi indulge in these hindu activities ?

Yes, there are non-hindu desis indulging in classical indian performing arts. Was this actually a question?

English only please. This is America.

Yes, there are non-hindu desis indulging in classical indian performing arts. Was this actually a question?

So that's their choice, they have to accept whatever baggage comes with it. No one forced them to join those classes. If they can separate those elements that alienate them from those that attract them, great. Or if they can keep clear in their mind not to get too carried away with the Hinduness of it, great. But it's not the responsibility of the teachers or the classes or whatever. They and their parents have to sort that out themselves.

31 · Rajni the Monkey said

English only please. This is America.

please excusing.

maan pola vanthavane, yaar adichaaro?: you who like a deer came, who hit-o you?

32 · Amitabh said

Yes, there are non-hindu desis indulging in classical indian performing arts. Was this actually a question?

I hear hints of Jyotsana in your comment which I answered above. Again, i'm not making the argument that anyone needs to be responsible for 'warning' anyone about the content of these pieces, that is generally common knowledge among those who take the classes, I'm asking what it's worth is as a vehicle of cultural education for non-hindu desis and desis not brought up on Hindu mythology.

This is all a private sector effort, they can do what they please. It's not like the government is forcing this on anyone. There's certainly nothing wrong with your offering criticism or examining it, but there's nothing you're offering in its place (so far).

but there's nothing you're offering in its place (so far).

From what in my piece were you inferring that I wondered about an alternative to Bharatanatyam (I think you are supplying a question that I never asked)? I think it's wonderful but that there are problems which need to be unpacked in order for it to be of more utility to all of us.

I'm asking what it's worth is as a vehicle of cultural education for non-hindu desis and desis not brought up on Hindu mythology.

I'm going to assume there's not a whole lot of Muslims in these classes. There may be some Jains, and at most a few Sikhs. Also possibly some Indian Christians. Now, on the one hand, you seem to imply that these classes are poorly done and ineffective in their main goal...which is to transmit Bharatnatyam. If that's true, isn't it also likely the heavy Hindu imagery is also failing to get through? Mostly people take these classes because their parents force them. I doubt many of them take it that seriously to really delve into the hinduness of it. But I could be way off.

I think it's more interesting that so many northern Indian families in the USA adopted this southern Indian artform as a vehicle of cultural transmission for their kids.

but there's nothing you're offering in its place (so far).

the fact that he is keeping track/tab of the "news" and doing a critical analysis is nayagar's offering. otherwise he wouldn't be caring a dime about tammy's exposition on a purely hindu activity.

Nayagan, peace. I just felt like you were mocking an easy target, classes which busy, harried parents cling to in a desperate attempt to instill SOMETHING into their kids... but I see that your heart is in the right place. I just feel this whole issue could be looked at a bit more compassionately.

But I could be way off

When you make that many assumptions in one paragraph, you're eventually going to run into that problem.

I think it's more interesting that so many northern Indian families in the USA adopted this southern Indian artform as a vehicle of cultural transmission for their kids.

not what I was shooting for, but if you have some meaningful insight--do share.

not related to the post at all. just a segvay off the author's nom-de-plume. i was traveling to bangalore in an inter-state bus some time back. it was an overnight trip and we were tearing into the night - a private bus company - nothing fancy but clean and comfortable. the music was on. i was enjoying the ambience and the proximity of people. this song came on and it was just magical. totally mellowed out the whole bus. Oi love people :-)
next time you go to india folks, lose the cell phone and just take a trip - anywhere.
g'nite and hope yu enjoy the song.

When you make that many assumptions in one paragraph, you're eventually going to run into that problem.

Touche. Anyway apologies if I came across too heavy-handed.

36 · Nayagan

there are problems which need to be unpacked in order for it to be of more utility to all of us.

This was a very interesting and well-done post, and I look forward to future ones, but I must confess that I'm getting a bit confused here. If a Hindu-infused cultural practice is problematic for "all" of us, why should the necessary "unpacking" focus on the cultural practice, rather than on the socio-political construction of the "all of us" (i.e., desi/South Asian). I cert. have no objection (and see some advantage) to using, in general parlance, those terms, but it strikes me as a bit odd to reify them to the extent that they provide a principled critique of classical dance (yes, I know it's not so central, etc. as post #14 points out). Or am I missing something?

I really want to hear from students /teachers/performers/admirers/critics of classical indian art forms who did not travel the easy route via acculturation in Hindu mythology.

I don't understand how it's the 'easy route'? What else are you looking for? There are a lot of people who don't give much thought or respect to bharata natyam as a dance form or spiritually and just think of it as a weekly hanging-out-with-friends session or another extracurricular activity, but there are quite a few people who are very dedicated and talented. Dedicating yourself to this for most of your life is a whole lot harder than joining the bhangra team in college, that's for sure.

I know some Christians, Jains, and Sikhs who learn bharata natyam. (The diaspora group that's really taken it up based on what I've seen, though, is Indo-Caribbeans, which is interesting, to add on to what Amitabh said about how north Indians are taking on this south Indian classical dance.) It's a difficult situation when our idea of what our 'desi roots' is so intertwined with Hindu stories and symbols. It's easier for Hindu parents in this way, I guess, but if non-Hindu parents have a problem with it, it's up to them to find or provide other avenues of 'discovering roots' for their children.

Dedicating yourself to this for most of your life is a whole lot harder than joining the bhangra team in college, that's for sure.

You think this thillana is tough? Try this thillana!

It's a difficult situation when our idea of what our 'desi roots' is so intertwined with Hindu stories and symbols.

I think nala hits upon the root of the conflict here.

Imo, the problem is with the colonial definition of hindiusm as a religion. Whether you are christian or muslim or sikh or jain of Indian origin, historically, your ancestors were associated with many of the art forms that are now called "hindu"---and it is even likely your ancestors contributed to them. There is no reason to disown them just because some foreign guy with a short attention span decided it wasn't yours a century back. And conversely, someone who is "hindu" and doesn't care for bharatnatyam has no right over it as well.

I have said it before on this site, but again---art, especially fine art of the caliber of bharatnatyam, belongs to whoever claims and wants them. To argue this is a hindu only and getting offended is as ridiculous as someone arguing Pasteurization is catholic and getting offended by it (if you didn't know, Pasteur was a die-hard catholic, and his motivation behind the discovery of this process was religious).

To see carnatic/hindustani compositions as prayer is again narrow-minded and plain silly---given their depth and musical intricacies, it is like missing the forest for the trees. You should go by Sheik Chinna Moulana, Ustad Bismillah Khan, and several other stalwarts like them for why the "divinity" in music and art is common to all.

Besides bharatnatyam is expression. Nothing stops anyone from using it to tell stories from the bible/koran/pastafarianism (agreed in the last case, you may have to invent some mudra for pirates).

art, especially fine art of the caliber of bharatnatyam, belongs to whoever claims and wants them.

I fully agree. Bharatanatyam is truly wonderful. An evening filled with mellifluous music and nuanced moves of "screwing the light bulb" and "feeding the chickens" has often helped to cure my spells of insomnia.

*ducking to avoid nayagan's capoiera moves*

47 · bytewords

And conversely, someone who is "hindu"

C'mon, now--quotes are necessary??!! This blog is going to wind up pushing me to affiliate with the BJP!

48 · Rahul said

art, especially fine art of the caliber of bharatnatyam, belongs to whoever claims and wants them.

I fully agree. Bharatanatyam is truly wonderful. An evening filled with mellifluous music and nuanced moves of "screwing the light bulb" and "feeding the chickens" has often helped to cure my spells of insomnia.

*ducking to avoid nayagan's capoiera moves*

I can't capoiera. Not even after downing a few capirinhas. Aren't you referring to a certain former management consultant and one of the best stand-up routines currently running?

Bytewords, Nala, I will get to your points/questions on the morrow (after I dispose of the marrow.)

what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’

Why is so abhorent for non-hindu Indians to be told that Hanuman or Hinduism is a part of their hertitage?
When the largest Muslim country propogates its hindu ties to hinduism in just about every sphere, why do you feel compelled to whitewash traces of hinduism, from what is essentially, a hindu art form?

totally with you, bytes.

It's a difficult situation when our idea of what our 'desi roots' is so intertwined with Hindu stories and symbols.

I don't think that's a difficult situation for Hindus. It could certainly be a problem for non-Hindus. But I think in the diaspora you can see how different groups have handled it. Most ABD Sikhs are not too familiar with Hindu mythology or epics (unlike Sikhs in India, who just grow up with that surrounding them as part of the general culture). ABD Sikhs are raised with a more or less 'straight-up' Sikhi, bereft of a lot of Hindu cultural baggage that you might find in India. Most ABD Muslims are completely unfamiliar with any Hindu motifs and seek their identity more in a broader Islamic culture. When they think of their 'desi' roots, they have desi Muslim cultural trappings in mind (which do, however, often have Hindu elements, for example wedding customs).

And conversely, someone who is "hindu"

C'mon, now--quotes are necessary??!! This blog is going to wind up pushing me to affiliate with the BJP!

no offense meant---it is only to include ppl like me who will self-identify as hindu even though we may not fit anybody's notions of what hindu is.

54 · bytewords

no offense meant---it is only to include ppl like me who will self-identify as hindu even though we may not fit anybody's notions of what hindu is.

No offense taken--I just wanted to point out that this discussion was leaning a bit far in one direction.

Most ABD Sikhs are not too familiar with Hindu mythology or epics (unlike Sikhs in India, who just grow up with that surrounding them as part of the general culture).

Although, there is Hindu imagery and reference to Hindu myths in the Guru Granth Sahib...but most of the time it is reinterpreted to illustrate the principles of Sikhism. The Sikh Gurus used the existing cultural matrix (which included Islam as well) to make their point.

I think there is some syncretism in N. Indian music due to Kabir and the interplay of bhakti/sufism, but it is hard for me to imagine bharatnatyam outside of a Hindu temple environment. Are the epics, even when interpreted as literature devoid of religious Truth, part of desi christian/muslim life ?I don't think so. I think because Hinduism was pretty much eradicated in places like Indonesia outside of Bali, it is no longer a threat and good Muslim artists can work with elements of the Ramayana without fear of "reverting". Ditto for Scandinavians who keep their Norse sagas alive without fear of returning to Odinism. Not so for minorities in India, they probably feel that any participation in these art forms may lead to reversion/committing idolatry. But it is also important to note that while the themes referred to by bharatnatyam are part of a wider Hindu culture, the dance itself is not. It was specific to hereditary musicians/devadasis patronized by Tamil feudal communities and not something for "respectable women" until fairly recently (i.e. last 60 yrs). This isn't some widely practiced social dance like garba/dandia raas

I don't think that's a difficult situation for Hindus. It could certainly be a problem for non-Hindus. But I think in the diaspora you can see how different groups have handled it. Most ABD Sikhs are not too familiar with Hindu mythology or epics (unlike Sikhs in India, who just grow up with that surrounding them as part of the general culture). ABD Sikhs are raised with a more or less 'straight-up' Sikhi, bereft of a lot of Hindu cultural baggage that you might find in India. Most ABD Muslims are completely unfamiliar with any Hindu motifs and seek their identity more in a broader Islamic culture. When they think of their 'desi' roots, they have desi Muslim cultural trappings in mind (which do, however, often have Hindu elements, for example wedding customs).

Right, but by 'our' I meant South Asians as a whole, because that's what I think Nayagan is getting at. I don't see anything wrong with bharata natyam being so infused with Hinduism, because I think ultimately it's about the dance, and you don't have to be a Hindu or brown to perform well and transmit that, though I do think you would need to 'let yourself go' a little (or a lot) and let yourself 'feel it' (wow, I'm sorry about all these corny phrases, I really am, but I can't think of how else to say it right now). If someone wanted to try to tell the story of Christ's resurrection through bharata natyam, that would be truly avant garde, and I'd actually be really interested in it. And I think while it's easier for Hindus to 'connect with their roots' in this way, the flip side is that in America it's harder to gauge what it actually 'means' spiritually to be Hindu in a way that it isn't for Sikhs/Muslims/Christians [in my opinion, in my experience, etc.].

I agree with what you suggested above, Amitabh- that these dance classes, while they have Hindu roots, aren't really seen as a religious thing so much as another extracurricular activity by the girls who are forced to go by their parents from a young age. It's much more about bonding with your peers and dressing up (which becomes a pain after a while) and performing at cultural events. *shrug* I'm more of a kuchipudi fan...

58 · nala in America it's harder to gauge what it actually 'means' spiritually to be Hindu in a way that it isn't for Sikhs/Muslims/Christians [in my opinion, in my experience, etc.].

Maybe I am really out of the loop, but could you say more about this? Christians, yes, for obvious reasons of it being the majority religion here--but--maybe I am a foolishly happily ensconced ABD Hindu, but why is it easier for Sikhs (fewer of them than Hindus in the US) or Muslims (have to deal with the whole GWoT thing) than for Hindus?

Maybe I am really out of the loop, but could you say more about this? Christians, yes, for obvious reasons of it being the majority religion here--but--maybe I am a foolishly happily ensconced ABD Hindu, but why is it easier for Sikhs (fewer of them than Hindus in the US) or Muslims (have to deal with the whole GWoT thing) than for Hindus

There is a larger Muslim community in the U.S., for desi Muslims to be a part of. And I feel like the nature of Sikhism and Islam make it easier for those religions to 'adapt' to the U.S. framework. Just anecdotally I've seen more people with 'strong' Sikh and Muslim identities than I have people with 'strong' Hindu identities. Of course we can get into what it means to have a 'strong' identity, especially within different religions that aren't really 'religions' at all, but I think we did that on a thread last week or the week before.

Oh and while there may be more Hindus than Sikhs in the U.S., Sikhs make up a disproportionately larger percentage of the population, and they're more homogenous (i.e. mostly Punjabi) than Hindus.

You think this thillana is tough? Try this thillana!

Rajni makes it look so easy, but he ain't got nothin' on my man Kamal.

>>..added fuel to the “All Things Come From India fire..

LOL!

Here's some fire extinguisher.
"Yes, I've heard - the bomb is in the Vedas [ancient Hindu scriptures]. It might be, but if you look hard enough you'll find Coke in the Vedas too."

More fuel to the fire- here.

I think confusion arises because Hinduism was not really one big organized religion. A lot of the practices serve dual purposes as cultural and religious practices. This explains why agnostics and atheists from Hindu families will happily take part in dances, rituals and reading all the stories. The same applies to some of the Indian Christians. I know some who have no problem indulging in Hindu related stuff because it is also a cultural thing. This analogy may not be perfect, but I see this as similar to many of us celebrating Christmas even though many of us do not believe in Christianity.

I loved reading all those Amar Chitra comics as a kid. What would be cool if someone did an anime version of Mahabharata for the older teens. Imagine the freedom in which they could depict those stories in such a format.

What exactly constitutes ‘respect’ for your heritage?

What do you think constitutes 'respect' for your heritage?.

Can a clumsy portrayal of a monkey mean that you’re disrespectful of said heritage (given that your chosen medium of ‘respecting’ is dance)?

I don't think so. First of all, No 'believing' Hindu thinks of Hanuman as just a 'monkey', but as an example of someone who is extremely wise and devoted to his superior.

Why do we entrust such an apparently important task, this cultural education, to strangers?

Yeah, why not.

Bharatanatyam is suffused with Hindu mythology and the pieces are often set to Hindu songs and bhajans—what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

First we need to understand the history behind the art. Bharathanatyam was confined to Hindu temples and was maintained/propagated by the group of "Devadasis/nattuvanars/etc..etc.." who are supported by the grants from the temples. With the revolutionary churnings in the freedom movement and the associated reform movements in Hinduism, "Devadasi system" was banned and in order to preserve the art form it was taken out of temples and given some respectability. (Note: The "aura" and "respect" given to Bharathanatyam is much recent, infact the Tamil word for prostitute is derived from the Devadasis.. But, that's a different story. :-) )

It is quite obvious that Bharatanatyam is a "Hindu art form" and hence would have a lot of "hindu imagery". I think the confusion lies elsewhere, in mixing up Indian and Hindu culture and further adding "progressive South asian" ideas to it. :-)

But it is also important to note that while the themes referred to by bharatnatyam are part of a wider Hindu culture, the dance itself is not. It was specific to hereditary musicians/devadasis patronized by Tamil feudal communities and not something for "respectable women" until fairly recently

I am not sure what you mean by that. Whether respectable or not, devsdasi's in the South were temple dancers (literally 'servants of god'). And temples naturally were a certainly focal point of the wider hindu culture.

Did you mean to say that learning bharatnatyam was not widely practiced among hindus. (But then again, it still isn't -- from what I have seen it is mainly practised by a handful of communities, just different ones)

Bharatnatyam is definitely a Hindu art form.

The poses and movements are all symbolic of religious ideas and Hindu mythological events.

The dance itself is a reenactment of Nataraja (literally, "Dancing Lord")whwo is Shiva when he is creating and destroying the world through dancing.

Indian culture and Hinduism are intertwined and anyone who immerses himself into Indian culture is inevitably going to get a dose of Hinduism. Non-Hindu Indians need to realize this and get over it. Many non-Hindu Indians decide they are going to embrace their Indian roots while avoiding Hinduism. This leads them to start "de-Hinduizing" inherently Hindu things like Diwali and now Bharatnatyam.

Hindus don't own Bharatnatyam and anyone who wants to practice is free to do so. But it is intellectually dishonest and insulting to Hindus to drain all Hindu significance from Bharatnatyam.

This is a really weird post with some definite hints of self-loathing and also just plain cussedness. Yes, of course, this kind of training is going to be quite limiting and limited to just a few simplified aspects of indian culture.

So what? I mean what are you comparing this to? A graduate program on south asia at some fancy US college? Maybe our friend Nayagan needs to get out of the SM bunker sometimes and get to see the real world a little.

I'm waiting for muralimannered's comments on this thread.

Where are you?

68 · Al beruni said

Maybe our friend Nayagan needs to get out of the SM bunker sometimes and get to see the real world a little.

Maybe our nayagar has to get his answers from indian president kalam who plays the veena which is played by goddess saraswati.

14 · Aniruddhan Vasudevan said

This sort of a successful nationalization of a regional and religious art form and giving it such airs of antiquity when it is - as any of us with a sense of 20th century Indian history would know - a 'revived' and 'reformed' version of 'Sadir,' performed primarily by Devadasis of south India. some 70 or 80 years back, it was not a tradition any of the middle classes were even peripherally proud of, let alone practice. Was it Derek Walcott who wrote "I am not a tree with my root in the soil"?!

Tussle between reformation and rejection. Nothing wrong in upliftment/morphing of an art form to higher levels however degenerated it had been in the past.

some 70 or 80 years back, it was not a tradition any of the middle classes were even peripherally proud of, let alone practice.

I think we're forgetting one important thing...in India, 'entertaining' people has always been looked down upon. Respectable families never wanted their children to perform for the entertainment or amusement of others. It was something you paid more 'lowly' people to do. There are entire (generally 'lower') castes devoted to singing or doing magic or acrobatics, or playing an instrument or being purveyors of folk culture, etc. While typically the upper castes' or the land-owning castes' involvement was more passive (i.e. they formed the audience and they were the patrons). A lot of things which in actuality are very highly developed, very skilled artforms, were enjoyed yet at the same time looked down upon.

Are the epics, even when interpreted as literature devoid of religious Truth, part of desi christian/muslim life ?I don't think so.

The epics may not play a big part in the lives of India's minority communities today, but that wasn't necessarily the case in the past. For example, the Meos, who are a Muslim community, have their own version of the Mahabharata, and Tamil Muslims were once among the preeminent interpreters of the Kamban Ramayana.

what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

I don't see a problem as a lot of non Hindu desis have had ancestors for which this was their heritage. Just like most people who live here follow a Judeo Christian cultural tradition regardless of what religion they belong to, I do not see a problem with that. I know a lot about Christianity, even if there is a lot more for me to know and I dont believe in Christianity one bit. You do not have to believe in Hinduism to relate to some entities which can be construed cultural by some instead of religious.

67 · JGandhi said

The dance itself is a reenactment of Nataraja (literally, "Dancing Lord")whwo is Shiva when he is creating and destroying the world through dancing

Maybe off-track but nayagar can you tell me why US bomb testing laser was called as Shiva ? Just as in that case, but more so in art, culture and religion there is always a churning force called appropriation. Probably art studs amongst SM readers would come up with better explanation or equivalent technical term for appropriation ?

By the way, as a little kid, I found all the Indian type stuff at these gatherings boring as hell. It's only when I went to India and my older relatives would tell me stories about all these Hindu gods, and the history of the family and how it related to the freedom movement, I would get very much into learning more about India. The thing I feared the most at the Indian parties, especially in the NJ-NY area were those poojas and some dance by the kids of the host family. BOOOOOORING. It just seemed forced and lacking joy. I always wondered why more of these parents didnt take their kids to India more often like a good field trip and show them around the country unsheltered.

69 · lifelong said

I'm waiting for muralimannered's comments on this thread.

Where are you?

teehee

57 · louiecypher said

Are the epics, even when interpreted as literature devoid of religious Truth, part of desi christian/muslim life ?

31 · Rajni the Monkey said

English only please. This is America.

This is probably the reason why we have all these cultural activities. Our uncles and aunties don't want to give up whatever is remaining of their "diverse" identity in the melting pot of homogenization. It is like every town in US you go to and shopping complex looks the same everywhere.

http://www.drbarboza.com/

Nala: "If someone wanted to try to tell the story of Christ's resurrection through bharata natyam, that would be truly avant garde, and I'd actually be really interested in it"

Heck..You can even tell Harry Potter story with Bharatnatyam. :-) It's been done!

67 · JGandhi said

Indian culture and Hinduism are intertwined and anyone who immerses himself into Indian culture is inevitably going to get a dose of Hinduism.

81 · Nina P said

Even today's Hinduism is bound up with Islam. Ideas about the presentation of women are very much influenced by Muslim ideas about "covering up" and downplaying feminine curves to display modesty

Maybe more in North India. I would like to know more about how Muslim culture has influenced in South India.

Aare va! Broad sweeping cynicism sopping with irreverent oversimplification are the makings of an excellent critique! You're too cool for dance school! So I suppose when people refer to the "hip hop movement" they mean like Jigga what Jigga who? Or maybe Bob Marley should have saved Redemption Song for his 13 children cause cultural edumacation is best kept within the fam (illegitimate or otherwise) – after all anyone with dreds should realize that if their locks are frizzy rather than carefully matted then they clumsily undertook their homage to the heritage... I've seen some whiteys do this, although whoah wait, don't the Hindus own that one originally?
Nayagan, if your article was a comedic first entry satirizing a completely ignorant and holier-than-hindu authority on what makes for cultural preservation, you were right on the money honey.

"For most items outside of mostly natya Thillanas and mostly natya Jathiswarams, most items (padams, varnams, kirtanams etc.) are all about Hindu mythology--stories that largely do not address the histories of other religious communities which have ebbed and risen over time (there may certainly be songs/bhajans about this diversity/practice of tolerance but aside from Vaishnava Janatho, I know of none that have been choreographed into items). You should also know that Bharatanatyam, in particular, draws a very diverse student population--it's not all about desis anymore."

most students at convent schools in India are hindu or non-christian. what is it like for them to have sing hymns that definitely do not address their gods or their religious histories despite going to a school that draws from a diverse student population? should the school change the annual nativity play to include krishna, mohammed and buddha? most gospel clubs at colleges in the u.s. are open to anyone - anyone who wants to sing praises to jesus that is. they don't change their songs to accomodate people of other faiths, as far as i know. so how do non-christian minority students in the u.s. feel when they constantly hear of the judeo-christian heritage of the u.s.?

i suppose the non-hindu students of bharatanatyam feel the same as the non-christian students at convent schools in india - their parents chose to send them there for a particular reason, their eyes and minds are opened to other people's sacred/profane culture/beliefs and they are open-minded and secure enough to expose their children to that without feeling they have to give up their own beliefs. For those whom yoga and bharatanatyam are the devil incarnate, i assume they do not send their children to these classes. like it or not, hindu/indic arts (where the separation of the sacred/profane is hard to demarcate and are as entwined with india and is the common heritage of that area as much as westerners laud greco-roman civilization as the bedrock of theirs, even if they live in the united states and it originated a mere century ago) is the dominating bedrock of indian civlization, whether it originated centuries ago or more recently. the numbers make it so. i have no doubt that one day we will see 'Praise Bhaaratanatyam", akin to praise moves, the usurpation of yoga by christian fundamentalists who want the moves but disingenuously separate them from their origins and change their meaning. i've even been to yoga ashrams where the words india/sanskrit are never mentioned because the teachers seem embarrassed by it. they're still shamelessly profiting from yoga though.

81 · Nina P said

Indian culture and Islam are also intertwined. Even today's Hinduism is bound up with Islam. Ideas about the presentation of women are very much influenced by Muslim ideas about "covering up" and downplaying feminine curves to display modesty. Pre-Mughal Indian art is radically different from post-. As Hindutvas get hysterical over a voluptuous depiction of Sita as "un-Hindu" and disrespectful, they are in fact defending historically Muslim cultural ideas.

I agree. Islam changed Indian culture, thereby changing Hinduism. Every time I speak Gujarati I use Arabic and Persian words. But I do not support eliminating "Islamic influences", I am complaining against people draining Hinduism from essentially Hindu practices.

Muslims and Christians can do Bharatnatyam and deserve as much respect as Hindus who do it. But don't pretend your doing a secular "Indian" dance when you are doing what is essentially a Hindu ritual.

i also agree with nina about the intertwining of indian culture and islam in some parts of india. this is true of christianity in some parts of india. this is all shared heritage to a certain degree, but also not shared culture to a certain degree. i met a woman from goa, a catholic, who had zero knowledge of hinduism despite living in india all her life and she had no desire to really know anything. her cultural touchstone and civilizational heritage lay in the west, she proudly said. there are probably many hindus who don't know anything about christianity/islam and don't care to. likewise, as the numbers of hindus/buddhists/sikhs grow in the united states, there are lots of christians/jews/muslims who could care less. which is why when there are opportunities for young children to learn parts of their own/other's heritage without being forced to, no matter how cheesy it looks, what's the problem? as long as the bharatanatyam teachers aren't insulting their non-hindu students and making them feel that their beliefs are any less worthy.

I agree. Islam changed Indian culture, thereby changing Hinduism. Every time I speak Gujarati I use Arabic and Persian words. But I do not support eliminating "Islamic influences", I am complaining against people draining Hinduism from essentially Hindu practices.

Muslims and Christians can do Bharatnatyam and deserve as much respect as Hindus who do it. But don't pretend your doing a secular "Indian" dance when you are doing what is essentially a Hindu ritual.

i have no doubt that one day we will see 'Praise Bhaaratanatyam", akin to praise moves, the usurpation of yoga by christian fundamentalists who want the moves but disingenuously separate them from their origins and change their meaning. i've even been to yoga ashrams where the words india/sanskrit are never mentioned because the teachers seem embarrassed by it. they're still shamelessly profiting from yoga though.

Has the statute of limitations on cultural adaptations now expired? Why didn't I get the memo, goddammit? I really should stop listening to those Indian bands. V are NOT rockstars!

87 · Rahul said

I really should stop listening to those Indian bands. V are NOT rockstars!

Rahul how about this - I wanna be a rockstar

"Has the statute of limitations on cultural adaptations now expired? Why didn't I get the memo, goddammit? I really should stop listening to those Indian bands. V are NOT rockstars!"

why? did they not dedicate indian rock and all rock, past and present, solely to lord shiva? :)

87 · Rahul said

Has the statute of limitations on cultural adaptations now expired? Why didn't I get the memo, goddammit? I really should stop listening to those Indian bands. V are NOT rockstars!

There is a difference between cultural adaptation and historical revision. If Christians want to do Bharatnatyam in churches or concert halls, fine. If Sufi music artists want to make Bharatnatyam music videos, thats also fine. But don't deny the obvious Hindu origins and Hindu symbology of what you are doing. Don't pretend that Bharatnatyam is "Indian, not Hindu".

Portraying Monkeys Is Paramount in Preserving Our Culture

If only this article had appeared a week earlier, Harbhajan could've used it in his defense, and the spirit of cricket would be just fine and dandy right now. I mean, if Ponting just needs a bit of tightening up, all the Indian team needs is some good cultural brochures they can distribute, right?

There is a difference between cultural adaptation and historical revision. If Christians want to do Bharatnatyam in churches or concert halls, fine. If Sufi music artists want to make Bharatnatyam music videos, thats also fine. But don't deny the obvious Hindu origins and Hindu symbology of what you are doing. Don't pretend that Bharatnatyam is "Indian, not Hindu".

But we're allowed to "pretend" that all the Mughal customs we've now appropriated (Nina points out an excellent example upthread, something that I think many Indians are not aware of, or choose to ignore) are Hindu, not Indian? Or that the rampant rewriting of the Mahabharata and Ramayana right to incorporate favored cultural themes whenever invaders overran North India are native? The only difference I can see between these terms you use is timelines, and who the winners are.

JGandhi

You show little in the way of knowledge about the art form and how it’s actually practiced, so I’ll give you some leeway here. If you wish to ‘de-hinduize’ bharatanatyam, or insert that agenda into my post, feel free to do so! (Just don’t expect any response)

Al beruni

I’m glad that some peoples’ Hindutva pots are sufficiently stirred to respond (not louiecypher). Again, I’m not talking about the limitations, I asked the mutineer community to come forward and share their experiences. Apparently this is an invitation for Hindu fundies of all stripes to bravely rail against arguments that I never made.

Who are you, Al Beruni, to question my credibility when it is you who cannot tell a sarrukal aduvu from an asamyutha hastha? I’ve danced, sung and performed on stage, in black-box theaters and at outdoor festivals. What I see is a tremendous diversity among BN students and I wondered how the non-traditional students were faring. Since you’re not one of them, or interested in meaningful discourse, this will be my first and last response to you.

58 · nala

you’ve more or less hit what I’ve been thinking of, regarding the conflict between what is essentially a very Hindu art form and adherents who are either not Hindu or not acculturated sufficiently. In order to be a great dancer, to project emotion without making a sound, one must ‘feel it’—the spiritual component of dance, which is why it is sometimes (especially in the Natya Shastra) considered a form of meditation. I was interested in how the non-traditional students negotiate this passage.

69 · lifelong

he’s closer than you think, just follow your nose.

44 · nala

The ‘easy route’ refers to those who come by Bharatanatyam after Hindu acculturation. There is nothing easy about life as a dancer.

43 · rob

The reason I’m focusing this ‘unpacking’ on the cultural side is because the demographic reality of BN classes has started to change —from being 100% ABD Hindu-identified kids to anyone who cares to join. You wouldn’t believe the following that a single decent BN performer can get just by doing a lecture-demonstration for dance major students at any university. I think we can no longer focus on the discursive construction of ‘community’ when the classroom is becoming more heterogeneous—the tools to expand the BN canon are there and we should be using them.

An evening filled with mellifluous music and nuanced moves of "screwing the light bulb" and "feeding the chickens" has often helped to cure my spells of insomnia.

I am complaining against people draining Hinduism from essentially Hindu practices.

I'm shamelessly mixing a bit of "sprinkler", with "screwing the light bulb", some "funky chicken" with "feeding the chickens" and no one can stop me!
Mhaw haw haw(maniacal laughter)

http://narthaki.com/nforum/messages/6738.html

Amusing that I am seeing this at a time when my teenager identifies himself as a Hindu-American, I think it is a really brilliant term! He goes to India every year and loves it. He says, he is American first and last.

67 · JGandhi said

Non-Hindu Indians need to realize this and get over it. Many non-Hindu Indians decide they are going to embrace their Indian roots while avoiding Hinduism. This leads them to start "de-Hinduizing" inherently Hindu things like Diwali and now Bharatnatyam.

Who said we were under it? Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder? I don't think anyone has demanded that Bhartanatyam be stripped of all of its significance and history, which is indisputably Hindu in religion and not just culture, but it sure must be fun to imagine such crucifix-toting barbarians at the gate.

I think the element of divisiveness is when Hinduism, however presented, is described as an all-encompassing and inherent part of one's heritage or history -- i.e., that it is somehow more intrinsically "Indian" than any other religion or community group. This is also how classical arts are presented in the diaspora; bharata natyam and other classical dances from the South are presented as more authentic, indeed, more "Indian," than the folk traditions and classical art in the north. For example, among many in the diaspora, there is a sense that qawwalis are not Indian because they are affiliated with the influence of Islam, whereas kuchipuddi is. Similarly, bhangra is "low art" because it is non-religious folk dance, but garba (which is devotional) is not. Even Diwali, which has different religious and cultural significance for at least three different religious groups, is a battle ground for those who believe diversity somehow chips away at the primacy of Hinduism.

The issue is not, in my opinion, over whether or not non-Hindus can appreciate or dance bharata natyam. The issue is around whether other religious and cultural traditions are allowed space to exist on an equal platform, whether they are respected, and whether they are given equal weight as also authentic parts of the multicultural and multireligious tapestry that makes up "Indian heritage." Sadly, the presentation of Indian identity in the U.S. is often tied up with an exclusivist idea of identity (of which, being non-Hindu diminishes your claim to Indian-ness). If that is what Nayagan is referring to or getting towards, then I think he's absolutely right to point out the frustrating and monolithic dialogue around what constitutes authenticity, heritage, and history in Indian identity.

In every single Bharatnatyam performance I've seen in the US, Ganesha sits in one corner of the stage, and the dancer invariably pays respects to him. I don't remember seeing this in Chennai, for example, but I haven't seen that many performances there. Anyone?

This is also how classical arts are presented in the diaspora; bharata natyam and other classical dances from the South are presented as more authentic, indeed, more "Indian," than the folk traditions and classical art in the north.

Camille,

I'm on-board with the rest of your comment, and this may be true at the discursive level, but my experience has been that the attitude of Kathakali/Kathak/Kuchipudi/Bharatanatyam dancers towards folk dances (of which there are many in the South) is based on the belief (IMHO absolutely correct) that most folk dances are nowhere near as complex as the classical art forms to which they are compared (i can only speak for BN). It wasn't authenticity so much as a sense of superiority--which given your own tastes can vary widely.

97 · Camille said

The issue is not, in my opinion, over whether or not non-Hindus can appreciate or dance bharata natyam. The issue is around whether other religious and cultural traditions are allowed space to exist on an equal platform, whether they are respected, and whether they are given equal weight as also authentic parts of the multicultural and multireligious tapestry that makes up "Indian heritage." Sadly, the presentation of Indian identity in the U.S. is often tied up with an exclusivist idea of identity (of which, being non-Hindu diminishes your claim to Indian-ness).

Well-said, as always.

Camille, here we go now we are back to my all favourite lists -

(A) Cultural, religious, heritage/identity

(a) Hindu heritage
(b) Indian/Desi heritage
(c) Non-Hindu heritage

What are we discussing about Bharatnatyam wrt to above ?

Nayagan,

Responding to this sentiment:

what is it like for non-Hindu desis to be told that Muruga and Hanuman constitute your ‘heritage’ and that the creatures portrayed in the Ramayana will show your child all that you wish to impart about this ‘heritage’ that any honest teacher could not easily define?

For most items outside of mostly natya Thillanas and mostly natya Jathiswarams, most items (padams, varnams, kirtanams etc.) are all about Hindu mythology--stories that largely do not address the histories of other religious communities which have ebbed and risen over time (there may certainly be songs/bhajans about this diversity/practice of tolerance but aside from Vaishnava Janatho, I know of none that have been choreographed into items). You should also know that Bharatanatyam, in particular, draws a very diverse student population--it's not all about desis anymore.

My response to non-Hindu desis who create this dilemma for themselves - wanting to be desi w/o Hindu influences, is to "get over it." I never suggested that you want to strip Hinduism from Bharatnatyam. I should have expressed that more clearly.

A N N A,

clearly post #47 (bytewords) suggests some people aren't over it.

To argue this is a hindu only and getting offended is as ridiculous as someone arguing Pasteurization is catholic and getting offended by it (if you didn't know, Pasteur was a die-hard catholic, and his motivation behind the discovery of this process was religious).

To see carnatic/hindustani compositions as prayer is again narrow-minded and plain silly---given their depth and musical intricacies, it is like missing the forest for the trees. You should go by Sheik Chinna Moulana, Ustad Bismillah Khan, and several other stalwarts like them for why the "divinity" in music and art is common to all.

Besides bharatnatyam is expression. Nothing stops anyone from using it to tell stories from the bible/koran/pastafarianism (agreed in the last case, you may have to invent