January 15, 2008
Desi Food, in TheoryFood
Through a post on the News Tab (thanks Bobby32), I came across an interesting “local food tourism” piece in the New York Times, featuring Krishnendu Ray, a Professor of Food Studies at NYU (can anyone think of a better discipline to be in? I can’t).
Professor Ray is the author of an intriguing-looking book called The Migrant’s Table: Meals and Memories in Bengali-American Households.
The Times has the cerebral Prof. Ray go on a tour of a series of very different Desi restaurants around New York City, beginning with high-end fusion food in Manhattan (Angon), passing through Jackson Diner (a cross-over favorite), stopping by the Ganesh Temple Canteen in Flushing (intriguing choice), and ending at a working class place in Brooklyn called Pakiza.
Ray’s comments are really intriguing. First there is a general, theoretical comment about the function of the Desi restaurant as a space of cross-cultural interaction in American cities:
“The immigrant body is a displaced body — it reveals its habits much more than a body at home, because you can see the social friction,” Mr. Ray said. “The ethnic restaurant is one of the few places where the native and the immigrant interact substantively in our society.”
Interesting — and possibly true. (Thoughts?) I think what Ray is getting at here is the fact that how we eat is both more intimate and harder to conceal than other aspects of cultural difference. In many other spheres, adaptation and mimicry can be pretty straightforward: you buy a certain kind of suit and shoes, and fit in at a workplace or school, more or less. But eating is closer to home, and the Indian restaurant in particular is a space where “old habits” (like, say, eating with one’s hands) can come out safely. But, as Ray also points out, the rules are somewhat different when the Indian restaurant in question has a mix of Desi and non-Desi patrons.
On $6 for a tiny, pyramid-shaped mound of Bhel Puri at Devi, Ray says:
“We like this very clever insider joke,” Mr. Ray continued. “We are taking something cheap and from the street, and reducing the quantity, turning it into a pyramid, putting it on a big plate, and all these white guys are paying 20 bucks for it.” (link)
Heh. His bewilderment at the idea of veal at a restaurant named “Devi,” as well as at the ingenious preposterousness of “Masala Schnitzel” is also worth a look. I also agree with him about the greatness of Saravanaas, on Lexington Avenue, and on a few other things as well.
amardeep on January 15, 2008 12:15 PM in Food · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
interesting article, i can only hope that masala schnitzel isn't adopted as a popular euphemism at parties.
I haven't been to the one in New York, since I unknowingly walked into the cheap imitator with the intentionally deceptive name (I think it was this).
But I can definitely vouch for the fact that Saravana Bhavan in Mountain View is where it's at. Right down to the big crowds of people hovering outside waiting for a table, the latticed rubber mats, and the blue tiled floors that evoke images of the down home T. Nagar branch.
Must be a nice gig at the university. He doesn't even have to know how to cook. Just talk about some kinds of food and how it relates psychologically. We could do that on sepiamutiny for free.
Rahul you're right.. the NY Saravana Bhavan has nothing to do with the Madras based chain. As I heard it, the story is that they opened in NY first assuming & held title to the name. Saravannas in NY is part of the real Saravana Bhavan franchise.
Fyi the Ganesh Temple canteen is the BEST dosa in town - highly reccomend!
For what its worth, my personal favorites for desi food around New York City:
Dosas: Sri Ganesh Dosa Hut Newark Avenue Jersey City, Canteen Flushing Temple
Indian Chinese: Nanking Jersey City
Late night: Kabab King, 27th and Madison and the Punjabi Delis at 50th and 10th and Houston
Sri Lankan: Sigiri 1st avenue between 5th and 6th
Bangladeshi: Kiran in Tribeca
Cheap Pakistani food: Pakistan Tea house Church and Duane
Tamarind and Bukhara are my other favorites although on the expensive side.
slight possibly irrelevant digression; when i read the article a couple of days ago, it said that mr. ray is "from the bengal state of orissa"; kinda annoying, but maybe they corrected the mistake.
Outright false statement.
Moving on, Saravanaa is teh rock! I second brown on Nanking. Always wondered if it is word play as it makes a perfect name for a restaurant serving Indian Chinese food. It be the desi BK. MUCH better than Chinese Mirch in Manhattan which I found disappointing.
The ethnic restaurant is one of the 'few' places where the immigrant and native interact substantively? Hmmmm, that is the sort of soft sentence that can be stretched to mean almost anything and precisely nothing. I would think there are actually many places where an immigrant and native interact substantively. The workplace, shopping, driving (any travel, really), neighbors in mixed neigborhoods, boyfriends, girlfriends, friends, spouses, teachers, children's friends, children's teachers, and so on. Why should the restaurant be any more substantive in terms of immigrant behavior 'revealing itself' so to speak?
I don't care for the 'all these white guys are paying 20 bucks for it' vibe. It's a bit rude to talk about customers, in particular their skin color, in this way, yes?
Off topic comment, but I think their customer service sucks, in both their Lexington Avenue and Oaktree Road branches. For the record though, I have never eaten out much in Chennai and people tell me that sucky customer service is a hallmark of all their branches, at least in Chennai.
Kurma,
Intersting theory on Nanking's name, I believe there is more than one in Northeast and I used to go to one in Delhi as well, I am not sure if all are somehow related, and Chinese mirch is terrible, I went there once four years back and have never gone back.
I meant Saravanas.
Anantha, you can add Atlanta to that for bad service. And even their food here is not a great. Which is kind of tragic, since I felt that the food at the HSB in the Bay Area was some of the best South Indian food I had tasted in the US.
The $6 bhel puri reminds me of the new yuppie joints in India which serve gol gappe/paani puri/puchkas made with aqua fresh treated water and charge 10 times more than the tastier version found on the street outside these joints.
MD,
The ethnic restaurant is one of the 'few' places where the immigrant and native interact substantively? Hmmmm, that is the sort of soft sentence that can be stretched to mean almost anything and precisely nothing.
The phrasing might be too strong and stylized ("theory speak" one could call it)... Would it be more palatable to you if he said, "the Indian restaurant is a place where an unusual kind of interaction can occur"? I think his idea is that the restaurant is in a sense a kind of surrogate home, where immigrants can go and still "be themselves." That is still to some extent true in restaurants that have mixed patronage, but the dynamics change. (Perhaps the real attraction of "authentic" food for many desi immigrants isn't the restaurant, so much as the atmosphere...?)
I don't care for the 'all these white guys are paying 20 bucks for it' vibe. It's a bit rude to talk about customers, in particular their skin color, in this way, yes?
I have to admit I thought it was funny the way he phrased it. But one of the things his comment overlooks is the fact that many of us desis are perfectly willing to spend $6 for Bhel Puri as well. It becomes less of a postcolonial joke, and more of a general, capitalist one (along the lines of Ardy's comment #11).
Actually what is more tragic is that the food rocks. My personal litmus test for any desi restaurant claiming to serve authentic south Indian food is the taste of the sambhar. The benchmark for me is this restuarant barely a mile away from home in T.Nagar (Chennai) and both the Saravanas/HSB branches here in NY/NJ match up quite well.
Saravana Bhavan chain restaurant food might be good but my food experience has not been uniform in all the places. What was uniform though was the service which is pathetic and atrocious. Usually I go with low expectations in terms of service when I goto any Indian food place and this place doesn't even match those. Particularly the one in Bay Area.
What is this service you speak of, in Indian restaurants? But seriously, I've never had any reason to complain in the Bay area one. That said, your experience depends to some extent on the calibration of your expectations, I guess.
And twice it was here. Both the service and the food quality got worse the second time (the first time was close to their opening). And I did not say that the food sucked, it was just quite ordinary.. some things were good, others were not. Definitely not close to the kind I had eaten at the other HSB. Yes, the service is consistently sucky though.
btw. happy pongal y'all.
happy lohri too.
chew some revdi for me, ok?
Rasam lifts me up when I'm feeling low. Anyone know about armpit dosas?
Chumps! I'm not desi, but I am tight with the wad. I've learned to make my own desi food, made a tomato saar last night - easy and delicious!
(I'm hoping this thread will turn into a recipe-swapping orgy.) Where's yogi?
On a random note I just want to note how much of a baller amardeep is. His posts are always interesting and just plain fun most of the time. Good job.
The food especially on weekends at the Ganesh temple canteen rocks. For $7 you can eat a thali like a king and it's loads of food. I'm so addicted to the Tamarind rice and yogurt from the temple now I think I eat it 2-3 times a week. IMO the Dosas and vadas are better outside the temple at Dosa Hut though.
Other less glitzy favorites in NY....
Damn I'm drawing a blank on the name but there is a Punjabi Pizzeria on the corner of Lefferts and Atlantic Avenue in Richmond Hills that makes the most amazing fresh Punjabi food as well as fantastic parathas.
I'm particularly addicted to Hot Breads (a desi owned bakery chain) that has stores all over NJ and a few in NY. I had no idea this place existed until recently. LOVE IT!!
I'm quite partial to Vatan on 3rd Avenue in NY. It's vegetarian Gujrati food and comes pretty close to authentic.
Another place I love is Coromandel in New Rochelle. It has Indian Calamari to die for. Everything else is consistently well made.
True, my expectations might be misplaced, somewhat. I expect water and menu cards at the table soon after I sit down, unless its the dosa places in Newark avenue. While menu cars do come to you, water does not, unless you ask for it, which is minor and I will ignore it since it is crowded. But I do get a customer be damned vibe because more effort seems to go into pushing me out. Almost every single time, I get the check before I ask for it and before I finish eating. And the only thing that takes me back there everytime is the absolutely divine rava kesari.
But my favorite instance of "desi customer service" happened in this restaurant in Newark (DE) when the restaurant owner/manager read the words on my t-shirt ("No car, no money, no job. But I am in a band!") and came to me and offered me a job as a waiter. It was so obvious because the dude was staring at my chest for a minute from his desk.
JOAT: Yes, Hot Bread rocks. Another Chennai import, ya'all!
Personally, I just found the comments thread here more insightful than the NYT piece. But for this, I'll not blame Professor Ray, but the author.
Sadly, I have to say that Ray's book isn't very good either, despite being "interesting-looking," but I guess it got him out of writing up a world-systems-theory sociology dissertation (as he explains in the preface, if I recall correctly). I was disappointed in its evidence and interpretation. More importantly, how do you make Bengali cooking (and the inevitable squabbling over it)so boring?
And contra the claim in the article, you can totally find Bangladeshi-identified restaurants in Astoria.
Ok Bess, I will take the bait. Spill it out.
20 · khoofia said
chew some revdi for me, ok?
happy lohri, khoof. what i would give for a nice bonfire, some dhol, and a gathering of solicitous neighborhood-punjabi-aunties.
also, speaking of punjabi aunties, anyone know of a place has a fine makki di roti and sarson da saag? so delicious on a winter night. and gajar ka halwa after.
no pictures with a food post? :(
I don't know what he is talking about. Last time I went to Niagara falls, I saw a desi girl interactively substantively with a gora.. espescially with her tongue
Jokes aside. Most of our interactions with non-desi folks are at work, school, neighborhood. Desi restaurants are where we go to escape back into desiness. Office potlucks and birthday parties are really where we immigrants really get to interact with natives.
I haven't heard the term armpit dosa, but the heightening of flavors when mixed by a cook with burgeoning man boobs, dripping rivulets of sweat, massively dishevelled hair, and a towel tenuously draped over one shoulder, served by a bustling 30 year old "bai", and eaten with a generous waft of roadside aromas and truck exhaust is an undisputed scientific fact.
Why did he omit takeout Thai and a steaming pile of BS from the list?
Happy Lohri PortManteau. It's the end of vinter, vont' you know. woohoo. the days are getting longer. this is the best time of the year.
7 · Kurma - bewildered at the bewilderment said
Hmm.. Nanking might have been a good play on words, if Indian Chinese food was big on Naan, which it isn't. They might as well call themselves PongalKing. I think it's more like Indians found oriental sounding words that end with "King" to name the restaurants with.
Amardeep,
Yes, I prefer the second and less exciting formulation: an interesting interaction may take place at an ethnic restaurant.
As for the second point, I know Ray meant to be funny, but I just kind of felt like he was saying customers were suckers for paying 20 bucks for fancied-up street food, but I guess if you are not a foodie that's how all 'top class' restaurants make you feel.....
I second the rec on the dosas at Dosa Hutt around the corner from the Ganesh Temple being better than the ones in the temple canteen itself...
And yeah I was really surprised to see the Hot Breads franchise popping up in NY/NJ, since I remember it from Hyderabad. Surprised but happy... they have curry puffs! Now if only there was a place in the U.S. that replicated street-side pani puri, my palate would be sated.
The bad service is a must have in Desi restt. In the restt reviews in SJ Mercury News one common theme seems to be that the waiters were rushed or didn't explain the menu to the reviewers, and obviously they can't explain the drill to these goras. The point of eating at these cheap desi joints is the food not the ambiance/serivce/atmosphere etc.
I am a little surprised that Ray is an expert on eating out at desi joints and says veal may not belong on the menu. The highest mark up seems to be in meat. Who will pay $40 for a vege dish? Profit margins may depend on pushing the cumin crusted steak !! The bay area has many new such upscale desi places specifically for whities in adventurous moods and they all have exotic names like Tamarind/Amaranth/Turmeric etc. And these are hardly places where one can be desi comfortably unlike the generic "cuisine of India" kind of places. So perhaps Ray should stick to the small hole in the wall stores where we can be "substantively interacting immigrants ".
nala, come to gerard st in toronto for that pani puri you're craving. but the aunties wear white surgical gloves when dipping so you will lose out on the terroir.
Vatan (mentioned earlier) has excellent service.
The less packed Oak tree road / Newark Av restaurants have been hospitable and they are inexpensive to boot. (many of these have waiters who are also the owners and a bit of banter makes the dining experience really nice)
I have had mixed service at Tangra Masala , but keep going back for more (since its easily the best Indo-Chinese joint in the NY area)
the one in Flushing, or in New Hyde Park?
aunties serving pani puri?? the mind boggles.
My cousin ran an Indian restaurant. If I ever run an Indian restaurant, I am getting rid of tips and building it into the food price. He told me there were quite a few rich Indians who were among the worst tippers. And these were people who have lived her for a while. Maybe that's why you get the bad service. You can't hire a decent waiter for those tips.
Also, Tandoor on Queens Blvd. has been around forever and has really good tandoori chicken. Their staff is kind of creepy though. Which brings me to something I've always wondered- why is the staff of desi restaurants almost always unanimously male? I know it probably has to do with immigration demographics since the waitstaff is mostly made up of immigrants. But imagine a more upscale Indian version of Hooters, with hot *exotic* desi women with long hair wearing saris and serving you platters of samosas and vadas. A place like that would be off the hook.
Don't a lot of places already do that, and include the tip in the bill?
37 · nala said
And yeah I was really surprised to see the Hot Breads franchise popping up in NY/NJ, since I remember it from Hyderabad. Surprised but happy... they have curry puffs! Now if only there was a place in the U.S. that replicated street-side pani puri, my palate would be sated.
Hot Breads is in Houston, too! I LOVE LOVE LOVE their Black Forest cake. Yum-o.
I was actually going to mention that! I love it too. It's Indian-style.
HOLD UP LEMME REDO THAT COMMENT!
37 · nala said
Hot Breads is in Houston, too! I LOVE LOVE LOVE their Black Forest cake. Yum-o.
44 · nala said
Not most of the restaurants in New York. When it's a group over 6, you'll see certain restaurants include the tip into the bill. That's not a hard and fast rule but you should expect it.
BTW, I disagree with you about Tandoor on Queens Blvd. Try Santoor in New Hyde Park.
Been there too! Their chicken makhani is amaaazing, especially if it's spicy.
Damn... I haven't eaten all day.
40 · DizzyDesi said
My family goes there all the time!!!
OMG!! My fave topic. Some things:
1.
Chi! 'Deep-mama! We eat with our fingers, not our HANDS. Geez.
2. The temple has the best food hands down, other than my mother's kitchen. And, unlike Vatan (no I don't want kheema in my samosa thankyouverymuch), they're ACTUALLY vegetarian. Anyway, Vatan's closed for reno for a while. Thank god, because I am so over their fake-village decor. Vomit.
3. Anyone know a good place to get pau bhaji that's not Bombay Talkie?
4. You can shoot me down, but I don't trust Indian food that's not made by a brown (of any persuasion) person.
5. Coromandel in New Rochelle is great, but you always leave REEKING of onions. Like, even more than the usual reek.
6. Tamarind is really good, but also quite pricey.
I'm drooling. I can't even handle this.
. Anyone know a good place to get pau bhaji that's not Bombay Talkie?
Well there's my house -- in the Philly suburbs! I would invite you all over, but I don't think you would fit.
(My better half grew up in Bombay... ;-)
aaahhhhhh, I heart Amardeep! Thank you for your always-da-best posts!!
This is the perfect post to air out a puzzle I've had for a long, long time. How come two Indian restaurants, with pretty much the same menu options (both have the standard dosa-idli etc kind of food + thalis), similar price-points, same level of non-ambience and non-service, in the same locality, have Disparate levels of non-desi clientele?
For example, here in Atlanta, there's an Udipi Cafe and the Saravana Bhavan (the one Ardy/anantha were talking about). The Udipi place has some 70% non-desi crowd, and the Saravana Bhavan has about 50% (just guesses based on what I see - we're evidently Very frequent visitors to both places :-)). They're both VERY similar, except that the udipi has more kannadiga food, and the saravana bhavan has slightly more tamilian influences - but I wouldn't expect most non-desis to notice that or care.
What do you think influences non-desis' Indian restaurant preferences?
I thought he did not praise the Flushing temple food enough..
Speaking of chaat, I was a big fan of Sukhadias in 5th ave until I found out that they actually cook all the stuff in NJ, ship it to Manhattan and reheat it there :o I guess I should have known :(
We are taking something cheap and from the street, and reducing the quantity, turning it into a pyramid, putting it on a big plate, and all these [fill in the blank] guys are paying 20 bucks for it.
My initial reaction is that this kind of observation is perfect fodder for anyone looking at the sociology/marketing/business of food/restaurants in general. The truth is that all kinds of "peasant cuisines" (or "bourgeois cuisines", for that matter) -- "ethnic" or not -- have been upscaled to the point of ridiculousness. But the contemporary restaurant scene is rarely about "value" or getting a "good, square meal", and it's also rarely about cultural "authenticity" or reverence for dietary laws, etc.
I also agree with those who pointed out that the statement "The ethnic restaurant is one of the few places where the native and the immigrant interact substantively in our society" is a bit much. On the whole though, I love this kind of thread of inquiry and anthropological observation. Thanks, Amardeep, for bringing the NYT article to our attention.
In my case, price. ^__^ The lunch buffet place is a lot more fun to visit with other budget-conscious grad student friends than the formal "reservation required" place, although the latter has marginally better food.
In Hyderabad, I tried out a lot of local restaurants and ended up finding a favorite place which I visited about twice a week. When I brought friends to that restaurant, they would invariably ask "but why *this* place?"
I told them it was the place that reminded me of the way Indian restaurant food tasted in the US. ^__^
Sukhadia's is disgusting, by the way - at least the one in Manhattan.
Amardeep: I want to know where your better half eats pau bhaji in Mumbs. I just got back and ate either pau bhaji or pani puri every. single. day. For two weeks. Yum.
Tamasha,
S. says "Khao gali -- there's a walkway that cuts through Azaad maidan."
Along similar lines, a couple of months ago, I spent 10 days in Portland (OR) and a friend told me about a restaurant called Chennai Masala (in Hillsboro, close to where Intel has its offices). Two of my colleagues (one DBD and the other American) came with me and all of us came back mighty pleased with my choice. We ended up going there 4 of the 10 nights we were in town. It was interesting to see the clientile on one of the nights, a Saturday.
My friends and I spent more than a hour in the restaurant. When we got there, there were 4 other desis. And apart from those four, no other desi stepped into the restaurant while we were there. The restaurant was about 3/4th full with at least 20 americans in there. The reason this odd statistic amazed me was because the food tasted authentic and going by the taste, I'd have expected more desis. Also the decor is not really upmarket. It's no better than what you would see in a pucca desi neighborhood.
To answer the question of what shapes non-desis' Indian restaurant preferences - I think its the taste alone. I'd include good service, but seeing that Saravanas in Lexington Ave does attract a substantial non-desi crowd in spite of the less than perfect service, I don't think that service or the lack there of is an issue at all.
I've never had good "indian"//"pakistani" food in a restaurant in america.
during the internet boom i used to go to this tiny east village indian fusion place called raga. it was one of the first indian restaurants to leave authenticity behind and it was cheap as hell too. if it's still around check out the tandoori fillet mignon.
but ray is right, fusion has been all downhill since with the emperor has no clothes crowd prancing around like the MET on a Thursday night. Devi is overpriced but at least its pow pow spicy. tamarind is going strong with its flintstone sized lamb chops and uncanny wine pairings, but its much much more Indian than french, taking few risks. its bubba's favorite indian spot too, so needless to say there's usually some talent at the bar.
the naan at curry in a hurry still rules, imho.
Amardeep, dude. If a family of 4 can fit on a scooter in India, we will find a way to fit. Heh.
There was just too much idiocy in this article to enjoy it. The author and the professor seemed to be in competition for how much stupidity they could put into the paper of record.
Anyway, is Hot Breads really from Chennai? I thought it was a Bombay place. They're all over India. I was pretty amazed the first time I saw the logo on a place here.
Nanking has 5 or 6 branches around NY/NJ: http://www.nankingrestaurantgroup.com/
Tamasha,
Try Dimple on 30th and 5th, the one in Edison is pretty good and they do a good dabeli. In Bombay I have eaten great pav bhaji at small udupi cafes, Amardeep is right about Khao Galli and there is a khao galli in Ghatkopar west which is excellent as well.
Kinara in Park Slope is quite good. Their chole reminds me of my mother's. I like Roomali's rolls, but they take forever to make. And I enjoy eating at Tamarind on special occasions...
AG: The first Hot Breads opened in Chennai in 1988. Here is a Boston Globe article on the chain.
nala @ 43
Ah yes, then the NY Times would write about it and we could debate whether the premise of the restaurant was misogynistic. It would be fun!
One of the things that I noticed about this thread is that the places have not changed substantially in the last 4-5 years. THere are 100's of desi places and the same ones get written about in our forum and others.
Who are these *exotic* desi women? The one from Nagaland and Manipur?
Mr. Ray, who emigrated from the Bengal state of Orissa in 1989
You live and learn, courtesy the NY times.
The newspaper of record states "Mr. Ray, who emigrated from the Bengal state of Orissa in 1989 ...". What exactly does that mean?
Excellent idea. someone get working on it. If there aren't enough Indian women willing to do it, hire Mexican women who look like Hayek.
Where in NYC do you get asli mutton? How about Hyderabadi biryani? Last but not least, paaya (goat trotters-cooked Hyderabad style)? My trips to Hyderabad are not frequent enough and if I can find asli mutton, not that abomination called lamb, my prayers have been half-answered.
Amaun,
I usually buy mutton at the butcher shops on Newark Avenue in Jersey city, it is a short train ride from midtown and downtown. There is also a small Hyderabadi restaurant on Newark Avenue which does a decent biryani, I have never asked them for paaya but I have had paayas at many Pakistani places.
Not to contribute to the devolution of this thread, but I think "Dosa" in San Francisco might have a little of this business model going on. However, if my memory is correct, most of the waitstaff were Anglo women.
Bah! Appropriation!
Anyone ever eat at Madras Cafe in New York city? Pretty good south indian food. Love the masala dosas. Although to be fair Ive never eaten near the temple in Queens.
Exactly what would make it so interesting to Professor Ray, in my opinion. Also, I'd argue that Hipster Desi Food joins a long and illustrious line: Hipster Asian Fusion, Hipster Italian Trattoria, Hipster Sushi Bar, Hipster French Bistro, Hipster White Trash Comfort Food.
See "Authenticity 101" in the course catalog.
23 · Andrew Jackson said
True that! That is why I subscribe to the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh feed of his blog.
His posts are always interesting. I think he tracks what I read online, and then blogs about it. This is the third time it has happened, it's scary!
What do y'all think of Volga and Shalimar on Oak Tree? They have some good chicken makhani and decent lassi. Volga also has Thumz Up that was shipped here no more than a year ago.
The best pau bhaji in Bombay has to be at Amar Juice Centre in Parle (W)
Tamasha (1) : Amardeep was correct, if perhaps by accident. Many South Indians do indeed eat with their hands - which necessitates that the tongue too participate in the food handling. Ask around, and basta de clamar "chi".