This is scary and awful, coming so soon on the heels of the unsolved LSU murders.
I wonder whether graduate student stipends have been falling in value in relative terms, pushing graduate students into living in more dangerous areas? I also wonder whether international students on limited budgets wouldn't be safer at, say, a U. of Illinois-Urbana/Champaign than at an urban campus (not that Duke is urban). Still, maybe that's reading too much into a couple of events. . . . I'm not trying to stereotype urban areas as unsafe, just pointing out what I take to be the reality that a relative lack of money could lead to fairly unsafe situations for a newcomer.

Some of these universities really need to spend some of their growing endowments to provide more on-campus housing for international students, patrolled by campus police.

The Tabloid of India mentions that he had been extorted by some local hoodlums in the past.

Terrible.

Our thoughts are out to the family and friends.

such sad news :( may he rest in peace. he must have worked so hard to get that far in life and pursue his dream, to have it all taken away in a senseles act. we need to begin a nationwide non-violence movement. i truly hope our new president gets serious about decreasing violence in this country.

See pp. 4-5 of linked report from U. Penn. for some evidence about graduate-stipends/lack of on-campus housing being a problem for international graduate students (admittedly, it's hardly conclusive--but it is suggestive). Money quote:

"As the table shows, even in those departments that distribute a minimum stipend over 9
months, and even under the assumption that students in those departments will find summer
employment with an income that will cover their living expenses over the summer, a typical
graduate student’s apartment does not represent affordable housing."

As a current Duke student, I would be wary of categorizing this tragic murder as a hate crime or a racist attack at this stage.

Of course, it another matter that the Durham Police is being very tight-lipped about this matter and is refusing to release any more details about this.

This week has also seen a tremendous spate of crime including a dozen robberies- including 2 armed robberies tonight. There is a common perception here among the Duke student body that Durham is unsafe for students. Durham and Duke Police is often seen as being more concerned about breaking up parties and citing students for drinking than concentrating on more serious crimes. Duke Lacrosse scandal was a case in point

7 · Akash Bansal

As a current Duke student, I would be wary of categorizing this tragic murder as a hate crime or a racist attack at this stage

Fair enough, but who's done that? This is a straw-man. It's about economics, and where international graduate students can afford to live, I think.

This is a petition to the Indian Government for taking a more proactive role in this regard-

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?abhijit8&1

As far as the administrative response to this tragedy goes- so far the general student body has only received this email-

"Alert -- Shooting Death

A man believed to be a Duke University graduate student was found shot to death at an apartment complex in the 1600 block of Anderson Street, several blocks south of the Duke campus, at approximately 11:30 p.m. Friday. According to Duke Police, the incident is under investigation and more information will be shared as it becomes available. Updates will be posted on www.duke.edu/today. Anyone with information about the incident is asked to call Durham Crimestoppers at (919) 683-1200 or Duke Police at (919) 684-2444."

(Along with an update posted on the Duke website and on the student newspaper's website)

Larry Moneta sent out the following email to a listserv catering primarily to international graduate students -

"To the International community at Duke University:

Let me first express my genuine sorrow for our loss. I know that I
speak for many at Duke, including students, faculty and staff, who
are stunned and saddened by Abhijit Mahato's death. Since the time
we first learned of this tragedy, we have been offering support and
assistance to his many friends, fellow students and co-workers and
will continue to do so in the coming weeks. We have also been in
touch with his family in India and are honoring their wishes for
Abhijit's remains. It is my understanding that the Hindu community is
working on plans for a memorial service and I'm sure that information
about that service will be shared as it develops.

At this time, Durham Police continue their investigation into
Abhijit's death and as we have information we can share, we will do
so. I'm sorry that I don't have much information as yet about the
circumstances of the death, but we consider this investigation of the
highest priority and Duke Police are fully cooperating with Durham
Police to resolve the case.

Please do feel free to contact me directly if I can offer support or
direction or answer any specific questions you may have about this
tragedy. "

As the President of the International Association at Duke, we are continuing to stay in touch with Duke administrators regarding this horrific tragedy. Indian embassy officials are coming down to Duke tomorrow afternoon as well.

8 · rob said

7 · Akash Bansal

As a current Duke student, I would be wary of categorizing this tragic murder as a hate crime or a racist attack at this stage

Fair enough, but who's done that? This is a straw-man. It's about economics, and where international graduate students can afford to live, I think.

I agree with you. Just wanted to caution against that presumption- considering that has been a valid concern regarding earlier incidents. I apologise for any misconceptions.

9 · Akash Bansal

As the President of the International Association at Duke, we are continuing to stay in touch with Duke administrators regarding this horrific tragedy

OK, good--tell them that they need to put undercover Duke cops monitoring areas where a lot of off-campus Duke students live. You won't do well with protection from Durham police, because the political economy is such that they will inevitably patrol higher-income neighborhoods more. Duke has a lot of money--make them use it for better personal security of its students!

What a horrible tragedy. My thoughts are with his friends and family.
SDM

This is really sad. Beefing up security on campus is a good thing.
But how does one go about protecting students who have to live off campus because of lack of funds?

rob you make a good point..."undercover Duke cops monitoring areas where a lot of off-campus Duke students live".
I am not confident that the University Board member will approve it. One thing Indians are good at is thriving, even while the government sleeps.
Maybe an organizing effort by the students themselves could be far more effective?

I call copycat! I don't know if this has anything to do about Jindal being gov., i sure hope not. i am one step away from setting up a "Brown Panthers"....I hope it never gets there...but my blood boils!!!! Small prayer......"Oh God may we please spare the innocent students" ...that only being a start!

I am sure this is a targetted attack. Either a copycat or the same group that killed in Baton Rouge. With the anti immigrant rhetoric of Lou Dobbs on the rise...hate crimes were just round the corner.

Terrible tragedy. Was the place where he was found murdered considered a dangerous place?

Latest news.

Durham & Chapel Hill are both extremely unsafe. There's a large group of poor and often uneducated youths who live in the area and prey on students. More often than not this turns out to be minority on minority crime.

Many of the South Asian born graduate students choose to live near or adjacent to the high-crime areas often for financial reasons. To be fair, sometimes they do this out of ignorance or trying to (understandably) pinch a penny. Duke & UNC never properly report crime data. When I lived in the area I had:

- A house robbed. (The kids stripped posters off the walls & took clothes.)
- My roommate and I had cars stolen.
- A car was burglarized.
- Had several incidents in bars where racial epithets hurled by some good ole southern boys.

There are some pleasant facets to the RDU area, but there is certainly a vicious seedy underbelly.

My sympathies to the family. I hope this case will get the attention it deserves. Imagine if this was a white blonde female engineering student. It would be on every day on FoxNews with Greta Van Sustern following every nuance.

At least incidents like these will send a message to people in India, that America isn't just a hyped up "baywatch-esque" version of itself. the poor white community around this area has for many years resented furriners encroaching on their land.

the poor white community around this area has for many years resented furriners encroaching on their land.

Aaahh... white people and women, always the villains, eh, HMF?

Sorry for that tangent. Condolences to the family of this innocent man.

What's up with these crimes in these southern schools. First it was LSU. Now it's Duke. And all these schools are located next to poor neighborhoods. Man, that really stinks.

This is very sad.

I don't know a lot about Durham, but in 2006 relative of mine found racist, anti-semitic, white-supremacist propaganda flyers in her driveway. My family is (ethnically) Jewish.

What's up with these crimes in these southern schools.

The south is the fountain of truth, justice, peace and goodwill towards all mankind. Nothing bad has ever happened there.

I think this incident and the LSU murders show that colleges definitely need to beef up security at off-campus housing.
My sympathies to the family.

7 · Akash Bansal said

This week has also seen a tremendous spate of crime including a dozen robberies- including 2 armed robberies tonight. There is a common perception here among the Duke student body that Durham is unsafe for students. Durham and Duke Police is often seen as being more concerned about breaking up parties and citing students for drinking than concentrating on more serious crimes. Duke Lacrosse scandal was a case in point

That seems to be a serious problems at many universities. Here at Rutgers, which borders a sh*tty part of New Brunswick, both the Rutgers and NB police overreact to student parties. It's not uncommon to see up to ten police officers storming into a harmless party, dragging out students, and slapping ridiculous fines for noise violations. At the same time, there have been at least 9 armed robberies and more than a few rapes at the hands of local youth and the police haven't done a thing. I don't see this crime as being race related; it's yet another case of crappy campus security.

What an awful story. My heart goes out to his family, to have such hope and promise so senselessly cut down. :(

Was the place where he was found murdered considered a dangerous place?

Hi, Durham resident checking in here. People who live outside of Durham are afraid of the whole city. People who live inside Durham, and know better, are still skittish about downtown (which is where Duke's located). So in answer to your question - yes. Durham has some really nice downtown areas, but IMHO it's a little bit like Richmond or Washington DC, where you'll be driving through a well-to-do neighborhood one minute and a terribly poor one the next. I did not go to Duke, and I've always wondered what kind of warnings out-of-state and international students receive about the local neighborhoods.

Article on Duke's bad town-gown relations, which focuses on the lacrosse scandal but gives a more historical perspective if anybody's interested. Even in the comments section, you can see some of the resentment Duke inspires. The suggestion for Duke to provide its own undercover cops is a good one, because I don't see the Durham police bending over backwards for Duke anytime soon. It is a tragedy that innocent people like Mr. Mahato have suffered retribution for institutional sins they had no part of.

the poor white community around this area has for many years resented furriners encroaching on their land.

HMF: Durham race relations are pretty fucked up, but your view of them is simplistic. Check out the article I linked above: it's not as simple as a bunch of angry redneck yokels hating on the brown man (which is not to deny there are people around here who fit that description).

As far as Duke and Durham goes, it's more a case of rich, white private university antagonizes the hell out of surrounding inner city black population, demolishes local neighborhoods in order to expand, declares itself exempt from Brown vs. Board of Education, etc. etc. This boomerangs back on Duke when Durham, which is roughly 45% black, decides it really doesn't give a damn about the university's problems. Throw in the decline of Durham's once-thriving black middle class, and you've set up some very, very ugly racial and economic tensions in the city.

Now we don't know who killed Mr. Mahato, so I don't want to leap to any conclusions about what racial tensions (if any) might have been at play. But, this is what I mean by innocent people paying for institutional crimes - the town-gown tensions, and general lack of safety in downtown Durham, have been brewing for a long time. Mr. Mahato had no hand in any of this and it is tragic that he is the one who paid for it.

I am afraid I don't understand. Doesn't this happen everyday to other poor brown people living in the same neighborhood? Is there something special about the killing? Was the boy somehow "special" -- more special than the other innocent brown people in the neighborhood who are killed? Is it his religion? The others are not Hindu and he is? Is it his nationality? The others are not Indian and he is? Is he worth more because he is of a higher caste? Because he is smarter? Or are the other brown people who are killed in Durham really not innocent at all and he is innocent?

I really don't know why there is so much brown-on-brown killing. I doubt there is much that white folk like President Brodhead can do about it. I do think that playing favorites, by specially protecting some brown people and ignoring other brown people would work. I suspect it would just cause more tribal/ethnic/religious/caste brown-on-brown killing.

I second Rob's comment about Champaign-Urbana. There are fewer brown people there and therefore less violence and killing. They may be poor in Champaign-Urbana, but they kill at a much lower rate.

28 · Big Bill said

I am afraid I don't understand. Doesn't this happen everyday to other poor brown people living in the same neighborhood? Is there something special about the killing? Was the boy somehow "special" -- more special than the other innocent brown people in the neighborhood who are killed? Is it his religion? The others are not Hindu and he is? Is it his nationality? The others are not Indian and he is? Is he worth more because he is of a higher caste? Because he is smarter? Or are the other brown people who are killed in Durham really not innocent at all and he is innocent?

Er, Bill, where did his religion or caste enter into this discussion? The fact remains though, that the victim was South Asian, that this blog is read primarily by South Asians (of both ABD and DBD varieties), and that the subjects of most threads here are related to the South Asian diaspora. So why are you surprised if readers here are shocked by the victim's death and are discussing it?

I really don't know why there is so much brown-on-brown killing. I doubt there is much that white folk like President Brodhead can do about it. I do think that playing favorites, by specially protecting some brown people and ignoring other brown people would work. I suspect it would just cause more tribal/ethnic/religious/caste brown-on-brown killing.

I might have missed something, but is there some a priori evidence that suggests that this is a "brown-on-brown" killing?

I think this tragedy at Duke and that at LSU also speaks to the necessity of having a good, rigorous orientation to the overall communities in which new foreign students come to study. I don't mean just the school-based orientations where people make overarching statements like "don't go to above/below these streets past 6pm", but really the history and understanding of what is happening to the community such that parts of it have become high-crime areas due to certain economic factors. Having campuses take more initiative in helping students secure SAFE and affordable housing where there lower crime rates seems imperative. These crimes are awful and horrific; campuses MUST take a greater role in playing a true 'host' to students coming from abroad to ensure the students will be safe and their studies unencumbered.

In addition, many great universities are located in very impoverished communities. It should also be a great priority of these institutions to reach out in every way possible to help communities in need-- many campuses do this, and still others remain ivory towers. I know this because I currently attend a serious ivory tower located in front of the most populated homeless shelter and just below the major prostitution ring in DC. We do a lot to help impoverished DC residents in general, but we could be doing so much more to help reach out to our immediate surrounding community so that our WHOLE community is safer overall.

I don't mean to sound callous with my remarks here...

The homicide rate in the USA is roughly 6 per 100,000.
I don't think I will be orders of magnitudes off when I say there are approximately 100,000 students from India ( I vaguely remember seeing 70,000 somewhere a few months back. Not sure if this is total or new arrivals per year). Considering how at least some of them live in high crime neighborhoods, the cases we have encountered over the last year or so is just the statistical reality...

*there are

sorry for the typos above

30 · ylrsings said

In addition, many great universities are located in very impoverished communities. It should also be a great priority of these institutions to reach out in every way possible to help communities in need-- many campuses do this, and still others remain ivory towers

this is true...rich private univs spending so much money on their students without being beneficial to the local community at large is going to be big socio-economic problem ...privatized education in US and India will have to deal with this problem in future

Are more students being killed these days or do we just have better reporting of it in the desi community because of websites like Sepia?

Bridget Jones said

this is true...rich private univs spending so much money on their students without being beneficial to the local community at large is going to be big socio-economic problem ...privatized education in US and India will have to deal with this problem in future

I also don't want to sound callous, but why is it the responsibility of the university to provide charity? If anyone should be helping the impoverished neighborhoods, it's the government. The schools have no obligation to do so. To me it sounds like extortion: "Give us money or we'll rob your students"

the cases we have encountered over the last year or so is just the statistical reality...

Statistics are usually overwrought by emotion. In 2001, the suicide number exceeded the # of people killed in terrorist acts by nearly 10 times. So technically, in '01 you were a bigger threat to yourself than al-qaeda was. But politicians weren't stroking fears of suicide prevention that year were they.

Blacks commit murder at a higher rate than other races.

That's only per 100,000 of the population, if you look here, you'll see the rates are very close.

36 · HMF said

if you look here, you'll see the rates are very close.

not that this is relevant to the discusion, but those rates don't look close at all. unless you mean the % of offenders being 52 for blacks and 46 for whites, but if you consider that their % of the general pop is 12, 84 repectively, that's a pretty huge gap...but not nearly as huge as the gender gap.

Such awful news. My heartfelt sympathies to Abhijit's family.

Guys, whether you are student or otherwise, if you are brown, please be careful.

but those rates don't look close at all.

closer than the per 100,000 rates.

I wonder if the coroner has established a TOD. These PhD guys are usually working so damn hard, and coming in and out at very odd and late hours, at least according to my experience.

What's up with these crimes in these southern schools. First it was LSU. Now it's Duke. And all these schools are located next to poor neighborhoods.

This is terrible and disheartening. Heartfelt sympathies to the victim's fam & friends.

27 · Mary Mary Not Contraryinstitutional sins they had no part of.

the poor white community around this area has for many years resented furriners encroaching on their land.

HMF: Durham race relations are pretty fucked up, but your view of them is simplistic. Check out the article I linked above: it's not as simple as a bunch of angry redneck yokels hating on the brown man (which is not to deny there are people around here who fit that description).

No, you really think so. So your saying that HMFs Yakub Theory of the White Devil is a bit unrealistic? You mean "Blackie = good, Whitey = bad" is too simplistic?

My guess is that as in the LSU murders the perp was NOT a heavyset White man with a beard driving a pick up truck with a "Send the foreigners home" bumper sticker, a gun rack, a dead dear in the back of the truck, flying a confederate flag who listens to Rush Limbaugh and country music.

Nor is he a BMW driving, rich spoiled lacrosse player.

The statistics are pretty clear, except to a math wiz like HMF. HMF your lack of basic math skills makes me almost doubt that you are Desi at all. I though math ability like spiritual serenity was genetic with Indians. You learn something new every day.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm

But as I said in a post on the LSU murders, I think there is a class/education level bias here as Mutineers identify more with the grad school demographic than the gas station attendant/cab driver/store owner demographic.

It's all horrible but if Abhijit Mahato was a gas station attendant/cab driver/store owner killed by typical black robber/murderer it wouldn't be an issue on SM.

camille (#41) correct generalization, but a couple of schools (GW, since foggy bottom is a pretty nice area and you would have to go further southeast or east to encounter the "bad" areas, and berkeley do not fit); on the other hand you could add stanford to the list. a few years ago similar problems were starting to crop up in charlottesville (robberies predominantly committed by black school kids living on the "other side of the tracks",-- i.e. the housing projects, though these are actually pretty nice one's--on uva students), but thankfully there are a few grassroots organizations--with memberships from both the student population and local community organizers-- in c'ville that try to address these issues, and last i heard the university was starting to do something. but still you have to merely visit the uva campus (the cafeteria is a microcosm of the campus) to realize the starkness of the class divide. service workers are predominantly poor (african-american) residents, while the college kids are mostly rich (and white, given the correlation between wealth and race in this country).

I still don't see how the universities worsen the existing socioeconomic problem. Most, if not all, provide thousands of jobs for locals, even if they are mostly custodial and dining service related.

As for the race issue... most of these violent crimes occur in inner-city neighborhoods in which I don't foresee any Mutineers venturing into. In the 'burbs where I assume most of us live, the guys breaking into your house could be black, white, Latino, or (if immigration from India becomes relaxed) Mumbai's finest goondas

call me sexist, but i bet a man did this

35 · Johnny Valker said

I also don't want to sound callous, but why is it the responsibility of the university to provide charity? If anyone should be helping the impoverished neighborhoods, it's the government. The schools have no obligation to do so. To me it sounds like extortion: "Give us money or we'll rob your students

it is not charity. it is outreach, don't the very same students try to boost their CV by including social service, community activities and don't the very same schools give some extra points such factors during admissions ? Handling crime/preventing is govt's business but socially useful outreach activities is not business of govt alone. why should church involve in charity in the name of religion ? A social organization has to be involved in outreach which can create social capital otherwise there is no difference between walmart and university.

34 · lion said

Are more students being killed these days or do we just have better reporting of it in the desi community because of websites like Sepia?

With proliferation of news media everybody want attention and sensational news.

My guess is that as in the LSU murders the perp was NOT a heavyset White man with a beard driving a pick up truck with a "Send the foreigners home" bumper sticker, a gun rack, a dead dear in the back of the truck, flying a confederate flag who listens to Rush Limbaugh and country music.

oh yes. you rail against blanket statements, conjecture, and lack of data, and I can see how that's completely consistent with the completely informed, balanced, statistically backed "your guess"

I though math ability like spiritual serenity was genetic with Indians.

It usually fails when we begin to count the number of white racists in our midst, the numbers just go too high.

37 · Manju said

36 · HMF said

if you look here, you'll see the rates are very close.

not that this is relevant to the discusion, but those rates don't look close at all. unless you mean the % of offenders being 52 for blacks and 46 for whites, but if you consider that their % of the general pop is 12, 84 repectively, that's a pretty huge gap...but not nearly as huge as the gender gap.

Manju, happy MLK day! :P

49 · Rahul said

Manju, happy MLK day! :P

I'm sure Nikita Rau's celebrating.

i bet the culprit's under age 35. i hate young people.

I bet the culprit is not Manju. I hate everyone except Manju.

Manju, happy MLK day! :P

This is so wrong. But it made me LOL.

Someone upthread from Duke said that they signed a petition to encourage the Indian government to take action- what exactly can the Indian government do, if anything?

I subscribe to the prejudice+power theory of racism, but only partially, because I think it's foolish to go on and on about how all whites are racist, when many of the crimes committed against desis that have been covered recently have NOT been perpetrated by whites. Minorities are racist, too, and a bullet in your head is proof positive of some kind of power. So let's hold off on the generalizations.

what exactly can the Indian government do, if anything?

Organize a bandh. Burn some buses. Break some storefronts. You know, maintain the venerable communist party tradition of citizen unrest that is alive and well in West Bengal.

call me sexist, but i bet a man did this

The sexism on sepia mutiny is out of control

53 · nala said

Someone upthread from Duke said that they signed a petition to encourage the Indian government to take action- what exactly can the Indian government do, if anything?

Maybe they could send in the armless Thakur saab from Sholay to take care of the hoodlums?

Bridget Jones: Churches, mosques, mandirs, etc. do community service because they see it as what God(s) commanded His(their?) followers to do. The sole purpose of a university is to educate; not to benefit those who have no affiliation with the school. And if we are to talk about moral obligations, surely the good citizens of the surrounding ghettos should understand that pointing a gun at defenseless college students and demanding their hard-earned beer money is also wrong?

The sole purpose of a university is to educate

No, it's not... universities are centers of learning and research, they're part ivory tower part social innovation, and they are part of the communities they're nestled within.

Manju, happy MLK day! :P

Likewise, I look forward to your future misrepresentation of the good doctor.

This is from Abhijit's website:

This is indeed a very lame introduction. But what else can I say about myself, except that I am the son of my parents, brother of my sister and brother-in-law of her husband?! And I have a cute and naughty nephew. Even that would be equally lame introduction.

That's adorable.

54 · nala said

I subscribe to the prejudice+power theory of racism, but only partially, because I think it's foolish to go on and on about how all whites are racist, when many of the crimes committed against desis that have been covered recently have NOT been perpetrated by whites. Minorities are racist, too, and a bullet in your head is proof positive of some kind of power. So let's hold off on the generalizations.

Crime is crime plain in simple black store owners get killed also,there was a black store owner on U.ST here in DC a few years ago that got killed. I am tired of folke trying to claim that it is a hate crime. Seems like in every thread here blacks get brought up no matter what.

Not that it matters, but it's hard not to compare the publicity this murder (and the previous LSU ones) generated, to the 'Natalie Holloway' saga. With all due respect, I haven't heard squeak about these murders, aside from a corner CNN citation.
So where TF is Nancy Grace ???

Crime is crime plain in simple black store owners get killed also,there was a black store owner on U.ST here in DC a few years ago that got killed. I am tired of folke trying to claim that it is a hate crime. Seems like in every thread here blacks get brought up no matter what.

I didn't speculate on the race of the killer, nor did I say that it was a hate crime. I was responding to posters who were talking about how this shouldn't be surprising since white people ('yokels,' etc.) are all racists. I'm guessing that white people who read these boards may feel pretty put upon too.

My beef is with the South Asian American organizations that gloss over the very real fears of desi small business owners.

i agree with doug. the point of my absurd sexist and ageist comments was to point out this post has nothing to do with racism. what the racism of white southerners or anti-Semitic flyers or browns having to be extra careful has to do with this post is beyond me.

not all crimes are hate crimes. people should be allowed to rob and kill without being called racist.

This week has also seen a tremendous spate of crime including a dozen robberies

Durham police released a crime alert on their web site on 01/19. Apparently there have been more than 30 robberies targeting Latino victims since the beginning of this year of which 9 happened between January 18 and 19 including the fatal shooting of Doleres Gomez on Friday. This report excludes Abhijit's death and a few other incidents over the weekend reported later . [link]

not all crimes are hate crimes. people should be allowed to rob and kill without being called racist.

When we've come to this realization, it is a happy MLK Jr. day after all!

65 · dipanjan

Durham police released a crime alert on their web site on 01/19. Apparently there have been more than 30 robberies targeting Latino victims since the beginning of this year of which 9 happened between January 18 and 19 including the fatal shooting of Doleres Gomez on Friday.

WOW--that's a serious bombshell!

5 · naz said

we need to begin a nationwide non-violence movement. i truly hope our new president gets serious about decreasing violence in this country.

Nationwide movements spring up from the grassroots. I encourage you to organize your own community to kick this off and not wait for a figurehead to impose change from the top.

35 · Johnny Valker said

why is it the responsibility of the university to provide charity?

Others might call "justice" what you call "charity." Regardless of what you call it, though, it just makes practical business sense in the vein of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

57 • Johnny Valker said

The sole purpose of a university is to educate; not to benefit those who have no affiliation with the school.

From Duke's Mission Statement:

As a vibrant research university where knowledge is pursued and translated for the good of society, Duke is committed to enhancing and drawing from the communities of which it is a member. Large numbers of our faculty, staff, and students live in Durham, and the quality of life that its citizens enjoy and the economic vitality of our city have special importance to Duke.

not all crimes are hate crimes. people should be allowed to rob and kill without being called racist.

I've been saying the same thing for years.

As sad as this murder is. There was another desi killed this weekend on this side of a world.

A young 1 year old girl was killed by her father here in my part of the world in Vancouver. The girl had made the mistake of being a girl, when she should have been a boy. The father had 2 daughters already, so he had to kill his daughter, cause other people in his community were losing respect for him cause he had 3 daughters and not had male son yet.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Canadian_Sikh_kills_two-yr-old_daughter/rssarticleshow/2716494.cms

nala and Harbeer: in an ideal world, I'm sure we would all like to see the university and community holding hands and breaking ground for an orphanage together. despite Duke's well-intentioned but formulaic statement (which is similar to those made by other schools), no amount of money thrown at the surrounding community is going to put an end to the animosity between the two. the billions of dollars funneled into impoverished neighborhoods over the years has not made an impact- they still remain cesspools which continue to breed criminals. before these communities demand money from universities and large corporations that happen to be located there, they need to learn how to clean up their act. they can start by stopping the harassment of college students.

nala and Harbeer: in an ideal world, I'm sure we would all like to see the university and community holding hands and breaking ground for an orphanage together. despite Duke's well-intentioned but formulaic statement (which is similar to those made by other schools), no amount of money thrown at the surrounding community is going to put an end to the animosity between the two. the billions of dollars funneled into impoverished neighborhoods over the years has not made an impact- they still remain cesspools which continue to breed criminals. before these communities demand money from universities and large corporations that happen to be located there, they need to learn how to clean up their act. they can start by stopping the harassment of college students.

uh... what billions of dollars?

here in NJ, the worst performing school districts (read: poorest) receive a tremendous amount of state aid in order to make them compete with the top performing ones. Five years ago, the budget for the Newark school district was 800 million, most of it courtesy of non Newark tax payers. If I'm not mistaken, there are around 31 such districts throughout the state. You can do the math to figure out the amount spent (wasted?) on education alone. After 10 years, these schools remain at the bottom of the list, with no significant drop in crime either.

Yeah, those children of immigrant doctors who settled in Plainsboro are really suffering as a result of tax money going out-of-district. How do they get through the day at their multimedia-equipped, doting-staff-filled schools?

72 · Johnny Valker said

nala and Harbeer: in an ideal world, I'm sure we would all like to see the university and community holding hands and breaking ground for an orphanage together.

I think your ideal world would look more like a plantation or a sweatshop.

despite Duke's well-intentioned but formulaic statement (which is similar to those made by other schools)

Show some self-respect and just admit that I got you. By "well-intentioned" you mean for their image, right? Your reading of this statement implies that Duke was not sincere and that insincerity is acceptable. Sorry holmes, I hold people to their word and so does the law.

no amount of money thrown at the surrounding community is going to put an end to the animosity between the two.

Then I suggest that Duke surround itself with a moat containing a dragon and a very high wall.

they still remain cesspools which continue to breed criminals.

Keep talking buddy. You're really showing your true colors now.

before these communities demand money from universities and large corporations that happen to be located there

You didn't even bother reading the article that Mary Mary Not Contrary linked to in comment 27, did you? No, you've got your mind made up and to hell with the actual facts!

73 · nala said

billions of dollars funneled into impoverished neighborhoods over the years has not made an impact- they still remain cesspools which continue to breed criminals.

this may be an accurate description of newark, where the racist democratic establishment kept their people enslaved to social welfarism, but inner-cites like Harlem have long enjoyed a renaissance. bill clinton referred to harlem as an "emerging market," magic johnson started developing property, merril lynch and BoA started making loans to entrepreneurs, pension funds started to develop affordable real-estate,national chains were invited in, and the result was job growth while newark continued to shrink and the average income in harlem grew faster than the national avg.

universities and their tired charity mindset should stay out. banks should get in.

can't imagine why someone would do this

God bless his soul, and give peace to his loved ones

oops. i quoted nala quoting johnny valker (oh, i just got it) so those are JV's words, in case some of you are worring that nala suffers from britney spears' ailment.

Manju - what you quoted in #77 isn't what I said, but what Johnny Valker said.

I think what a lot of college students at the aforementioned schools mean by 'helping the community' isn't giving away money, but more things like helping with local tutoring programs (e.g. Boys & Girls Club), things like that. Some of these schools are supposed to be 'the cream of the crop,' and they have reputations for being extremely liberal, but the attitudes of many students toward the people who live in the area is still very off-putting and condescending. Also, it's really just in the best interest of the university to care about what's going on in town, e.g. think of New Haven twelve years ago versus now, things have improved a lot and so has student quality of life.

Yes, it really did take me that long to post that comment, that I didn't see your correction, Manju...

63 · nala said

Crime is crime plain in simple black store owners get killed also,there was a black store owner on U.ST here in DC a few years ago that got killed. I am tired of folke trying to claim that it is a hate crime. Seems like in every thread here blacks get brought up no matter what.

I didn't speculate on the race of the killer, nor did I say that it was a hate crime. I was responding to posters who were talking about how this shouldn't be surprising since white people ('yokels,' etc.) are all racists. I'm guessing that white people who read these boards may feel pretty put upon too.

My beef is with the South Asian American organizations that gloss over the very real fears of desi small business owners.

I agree with that 100%.

not all crimes are hate crimes. people should be allowed to rob and kill without being called racist.

I agree with you, problem is, many times the assailant removes all doubt. Of course in this case we don't know, what I had meant to say (which wasn't clear, I agree) was if indeed it's uncovered that it's the result of a sub standard living, uneducated white person who's lived there and feels that as his territory, it wouldn't be much of a surprise, given the propensity of those residents to harbor those feelings.

publicity this murder (and the previous LSU ones) generated, to the 'Natalie Holloway' saga

but white privilege doesn't exist, right?

I agree with you, problem is, many times the assailant removes all doubt. Of course in this case we don't know, what I had meant to say (which wasn't clear, I agree) was if indeed it's uncovered that it's the result of a sub standard living, uneducated white person who's lived there and feels that as his territory, it wouldn't be much of a surprise, given the propensity of those residents to harbor those feelings.

And if it was the result of a substandard-living, uneducated black person who's lived there and feels that it's his territory? Would that not be much of a surprise either, given the propensity of those residents to harbor those feelings?

Not really... you really don't hear black folks saying "go back to your own country, etc.." when they themselves have been treated like 2nd class citiznes, sure they might commit acts for other reasons (and I guess if the end result is the same, it perhaps doesn't matter)

but given the DOJ stats I quoted earlier, GIVEN a homicide has occurred it's only slightly more likely that the assailant is black.

85 · HMF said

Not really... you really don't hear black folks saying "go back to your own country, etc.."

you really need to get out a litte more

43 · sigh! said

(GW, since foggy bottom is a pretty nice area and you would have to go further southeast or east to encounter the "bad" areas, and berkeley do not fit); on the other hand you could add stanford to the list.

I still don't see how the universities worsen the existing socioeconomic problem. Most, if not all, provide thousands of jobs for locals, even if they are mostly custodial and dining service related.

As for the race issue... most of these violent crimes occur in inner-city neighborhoods in which I don't foresee any Mutineers venturing into. In the 'burbs where I assume most of us live, the guys breaking into your house could be black, white, Latino, or (if immigration from India becomes relaxed) Mumbai's finest goondasIt sounds like you believe that socioeconomic disparities, poverty, and injustice are all "natural" pre-existing conditions. Many of the universities mentioned in this list have VERY poor town-gown relations, and others have exacerbated or created these "inner-city" problems you allude to. Also, I can't speak for Duke, but hardly any of these universities pay their share of property taxes, either, which -- when you are a sprawling campus -- does not help regenerate funds for local government initiatives.

Also, please speak for yourself when discussing "suburban Mutineers." This is a reoccurring and inaccurate red herring that comes up anytime folks discuss crime and poverty on this blog -- not everyone grows up in your vision of desi suburbia, and not all of us choose to live in that suburbia later in life, either. If you have a critique that actually addresses ANY of the substantive points raised in this discussion, that would be helpful. It sounds as though you've staked out your position and are firmly committed to your corner.

this may be an accurate description of newark, where the racist democratic establishment kept their people enslaved to social welfarism, but inner-cites like Harlem have long enjoyed a renaissance

Not really... you really don't hear black folks saying "go back to your own country, etc.." when they themselves have been treated like 2nd class citiznes,

77 · Manju said

this may be an accurate description of newark, where the racist democratic establishment kept their people enslaved to social welfarism, but inner-cites like Harlem have long enjoyed a renaissance. bill clinton referred to harlem as an "emerging market," magic johnson started developing property, merril lynch and BoA started making loans to entrepreneurs, pension funds started to develop affordable real-estate,national chains were invited in, and the result was job growth while newark continued to shrink and the average income in harlem grew faster than the national avg.

fair enough, but do you think that renewal will spread to smaller cities, especially those that lack Harlem's cultural past?

nala: i agree with you that it's hypocritical for self-styled liberal students to show only contempt, and a little bit of fear, towards their not so affluent neighbors. i assumed earlier posters were referring to the university shelling out tuition/endowment money in order to help the local crackheads.

I guess this depends on how you characterize neighborhoods :) The southside of (the city of) Berkeley, which is overwhelmingly populated by (UC) Berkeley undergraduates, has relatively high levels of muggings, car jackings, bike thefts, etc., and as you move further south towards the Oakland/580-980-24 freeway border (and also in West Berkeley, near I-80) you see higher violence rates as well. Stanford, meanwhile, is in Palo Alto, which borders the former "murder capital of the country," East Palo Alto. That said, I know very few students who live in East Paly, and it certainly is not within the a 5-mile radius of Stanford, no? I am happy to omit GW from the list, though :)

Camille- have I told you how confusing it is for someone not from the area (or maybe just me) to figure out the geography & demography of the Bay Area. For California in general, actually. Though I still think it's insanely awesome that there's an area called the 'Inland Empire' (even though the area itself may not be that awesome).

Also, please speak for yourself when discussing "suburban Mutineers." This is a reoccurring and inaccurate red herring that comes up anytime folks discuss crime and poverty on this blog -- not everyone grows up in your vision of desi suburbia, and not all of us choose to live in that suburbia later in life, either.

Word.

you really need to get out a litte more

Heh... agreed.

88 · Johnny Valker said

fair enough, but do you think that renewal will spread to smaller cities, especially those that lack Harlem's cultural past?

its a nationwide trend. check out this organization

Likewise, I look forward to your future misrepresentation of the good doctor.

Manju, have you been a troublemaker in Dr. Phil's getting real program again?

you really need to get out a litte more

He would, but every time he crawls out from under his desk and peers through the window, he sees more members of whitey's army prowling outside.

universities and their tired charity mindset should stay out. banks should get in.

If it's such a sure thing, who's stopping them? Isn't this America?

This is scary and very tragic. I hope the killer(s) get thrown in jail soon.

91 · Rahul said

If it's such a sure thing, who's stopping them? Isn't this America?

there's no sure thing but they're getting in. BoA the most, then merril, and goldman has a new community development fund. and then there's a host of smaller lesser known socially concious VC and private equity funds. it's a fairly big thing, not as big as some other socially-conscious ventures like greentech, but pretty big.

Is he worth more because he is of a higher caste?

Yes. You got a problem with that?

Durham police released a crime alert on their web site on 01/19. Apparently there have been more than 30 robberies targeting Latino victims since the beginning of this year of which 9 happened between January 18 and 19 including the fatal shooting of Doleres Gomez on Friday. This report excludes Abhijit's death and a few other incidents over the weekend reported later .

That explains it. Abhijit was targeted not because he is indian but because he looks hispanic.

Two comments:

First: Circumstances probably propel DBD grad students to "shadier" neighborhoods

To begin with: Grad students are paid quite poorly [18 dollars more per year than a minimum wage earner: per Jorge Cham's presentation: )] - especially true for the snootier schools/departments [They expect you to come there for the "research opportunities" and brand name (snob value)]. Quite often, a student applying from India will merely picked the highest rank program he or she has been admitted to (or received aid from). For many of them, there is the additional desire / imperitive to save money from even this meager payckeck to buy annual/biannual air-tickets and send money and gifts home. The net result is as stated.

Second: (vivek beat me to it - and so i merely second the opinion) Abhijit was probably killed because he was perceived to be mexican (brown). With brown (mexican) v/s black tensions rising across the country (have been reading with increasing frequencies stories alluding to such gang wars), perhaps we should be specially cautious.

but is this claim based on your actual, lived experience, or on your "rational assumption"

both. at the very least, blacks claim less personal ownership (ie, the are quicker to acknowledge the presence of native americans as the true owners, etc..) to the land as whites do.

he sees more members of whitey's army prowling outside.

If only I had the correct sequence of youtube videos to get me past that initial 5 feet.

you really need to get out a litte more

True, I really need an audience w/that diverse group that you perhaps hang with, the upper west side elite, the upper east side elite, the battery park elite. so much can change in an 80 block difference you know.

Dhoorendhar: just out of curiosity, do Indian grad students receive any allowance/aid from the Indian government?

Dhoorendhar: just out of curiosity, do Indian grad students receive any allowance/aid from the Indian government?

No, Only if they are on GOI (Government of India) various fellowships (which are not that many), and/ or bilateral fellowships like Fulbright, Ford Foundation (then most of the money comes from the foundations).

Majority of Indian graduate students are on research/ teaching assistantships, and/ or individual institute fellowships, and lot of them self-financed.

Camille- have I told you how confusing it is for someone not from the area (or maybe just me) to figure out the geography & demography of the Bay Area. For California in general, actually. Though I still think it's insanely awesome that there's an area called the 'Inland Empire' (even though the area itself may not be that awesome).

Aside from the freeway system, what's confusing about the Bay's geography/demography?

both. at the very least, blacks claim less personal ownership (ie, the are quicker to acknowledge the presence of native americans as the true owners, etc..) to the land as whites do.

ummm I think you have a point. Many AA's do this to themselves , with old school pathology 'acting white' or otherwise ,othering themselves,sometimes without realizing it. It's supported /enforeced by the wider community of 'real' Americans.

Consciously [The Good Shepard]; Edward Wilson; "The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting."

I have met (white) Americans and Europeans who feel suprised/perplexed/cheated when they actually meet me because a real American , in their view, is a white American. I daresay with the Latino/AA turf war/ immigration debate- more blacks will start embracing a nativist view. I don't endorse this in the negative sense. On the otherhand I don't get how someone whose grand/parents came to the US in the 1950's from Poland/Italy or anywhere else , should feel more 'authentically American' than someone whose family has been here from day 1, or at least from the same time the Europeans showed up.

Condolences to the Mahato family

On the otherhand I don't get how someone whose grand/parents came to the US in the 1950's from Poland/Italy or anywhere else ,

It's what Malcolm described as the phenom of "white immigrants getting rights handed to them the day they step off the plane that black and brown folks haven't been able to achieve in 200+ years" but there's no reason to turn the discussion any further in this direction.

Would it make sense to write the governer or mayor or representative of this state to urge for a thorough investigation, reminding them that even people with darker skin, born in other countries are human beings as well?

I don't think one needs to patronise blacks and make excuses for the behavior of the criminals that come from their community. However, I find it interesting that many Indians who come the the US are so openly racist. Why not just call a neighborhood an unsafe neighborhood ? Is there no crime in India? What do they call those neighborhoods in India? Black neighborhoods? It is especially funny when they make such references in Atlanta where blacks span the upper, middle and lower class demographics.

If a black guy was the killer in this case, fry him. But I do not see why this is seen as anything but a robbery related killing.

A lot of schools hand out I-20s like a christmas party and the F1-visa process at many consulates is a mere formality. In our days there were a huge number of rejections and that regulated the influx of grad students. Another factor was the quality of schools we applied to, today there are many schools that take students even without a GRE score.

so back then for n I-20s we had n*(3/4) visas but now it is n^3 I-20s and (n^3)-10 visas. With such a large number of students flying in, even the best schools have run out of not only on-campus housing but even off-campus housing near the univ that fall under the patrol area of the campus-police.

I know kids that arrived this winter who live 5-6 miles from school and commute by local transit each day. Strangely enough a lot of schools are adjacent to high crime localities, which doesn't help in anyways.

Now who do you blame? school, consulate? students? or the dollar dream?

103 · Pravin said

However, I find it interesting that many Indians who come the the US are so openly racist.

How can this be? Haven't Indians been treated like 2nd class citizens too?

The point is, those of us whose experince with black folks goes beyond 346 viewings of Spike Leee's Malcolm X know bigoted attitudes are prevalent b/c well, blacks are just like us. In fact, DOJ stats reveal that blacks are overrepresented as perpetrators of hate crimes, while whites are underrepresented. various polls show that blacks and whites have similar views regarding immigration. the obama vs. clinton battle has revaeled a split between blacks and latinos, with both sides having some problematic views.

i didn't think all this had anything to do with this post until dipanjan revealed that the durham police are investigating a a series of robberies targeting Latino victims. the suspects are black males.

both. at the very least, blacks claim less personal ownership (ie, the are quicker to acknowledge the presence of native americans as the true owners, etc..) to the land as whites do.

universities and their tired charity mindset should stay out.

* i drink only down-home desi chai, but that phrase has such a ring to it, no?

i do hope that abhijit's family is able to recover from this very unexpected and tragic blow, and draw meaning from what he was able to achieve as a young man.

Manju, like I said, one doesnt have to go to the extreme of patronizing blacks and making excuses for the behavior of the criminals that come from that community. However, it seems like almost every Indian I come across has to make some annoying comment about black neighborhoods. One doesnt have to deny that most of the dangerous neighborhoods seem to be predominantly black. But it's not the necessarily the opposite. Getting back to this case, I wonder if they were targeting Latino victims because the perception is the cops pay less attention to cases involving minorities as victims. Some Latinos are illegal and are hesitant to report crimes against them. I have known on at least 3 occasions from personal experience where cops do not show as much concern when the victims of a crime are Indian. Their body language seemed to be "oh well. we will file the report. Don't really expect anything to come out of this."

well, I do have a documented a yerba-mate-swilling* "progressive" bias.

The point is, those of us whose experince with black folks goes beyond 346 viewings of Spike Leee's Malcolm X know bigoted attitudes are prevalent b/c well, blacks are just like us.

Watching Gandhi 346 times is just as frightening. That would cause strained eyes all round.

In fact, DOJ stats reveal that blacks are overrepresented as perpetrators of hate crimes, while whites are underrepresented.

Blacks also make up less of the general population nimrod, so stating they are overrepresented really doesnt mean much, as white still commit most of the hate crimes. So, given a hate crime has occured, the probability leads towards a white assailant.

various polls show that blacks and whites have similar views regarding immigration.

Again, doesn't mean they hold similar views re: personal ownership of the land. You will find large swaths of whites who say "get your ass back to africa/india/china, etc.." and you simply don't see that in the same #'s with blacks. You don't have blacks telling whites, "get your ass back to england/holland"

those of us whose experince with black folks goes beyond 346 viewings of Spike Leee's Malcolm X

You could use a few viewings yourself. Also, maybe some non-ideological driven readings of the data you present.

How can this be? Haven't Indians been treated like 2nd class citizens too?

ANother binary reading, have you ever considered that different immigrants can be treated differently? and that levels of 2nd class citizenship might exist? Indians being treated as substandard is completely coexistent with them reviling blacks (especially the US)

viewings of Spike Leee's Malcolm X

at least you got the director's name right.

Right, I got my HMF and Manju fix for the day!

It does have a certain ring to it. I do know several libertine libertarians who do who swill a great deal of Mate as well.

I don't think universities owe their surrounding communities anything. Except for paying a living wage for non-academic/non-administrative staff so as to not contribute to the malaise. That being said, I think it would be cool for B-school students to have some partnership with community development banks to help & learn from minority small business owners.

pravin:

i agree with with your sentiments. i was also annoyed how black (and for that matter white) racism got dragged into this convo. and i think you're right on target to be careful not to allow anti-racism to become a patronizing form of racism that white liberals like hmf often fall into: where blacks become one-dimensional paradigms of virtue and black entrepreneurship becomes more unrealistic than a lesbian paradise state.

but dipanjan comment made race relevant IMO. and for those who can't understand how blacks can be racist, just look at the indian community.

Having said that, its still likely this has nothing to do with race.

Abhijit was not killed in a gang violence according to this TOI article.

Blacks also make up less of the general population nimrod, so stating they are overrepresented really doesnt mean much,

it means a lot vis a vis nala's queston to you in #84...ie "given the propensity of those residents to harbor those feelings?"

as white still commit most of the hate crimes. So, given a hate crime has occured, the probability leads towards a white assailant.

when did i say otherwise?

Again, doesn't mean they hold similar views re: personal ownership of the land. You will find large swaths of whites who say "get your ass back to africa/india/china, etc.." and you simply don't see that in the same #'s with blacks. You don't have blacks telling whites, "get your ass back to england/holland"

there have been a few post here on SM about desis facing post-911 xenophobia at the hands of black males. So if you want anecdotes on top of stats, you got it.

where blacks become one-dimensional paradigms of virtue and black entrepreneurship becomes more unrealistic than a lesbian paradise state

and the misrepresentation olympics are off..

Not exactly sure where I said blacks are one-dimensional paradigms of virtue or paradigms of anything, of course, I need to try and backpropogate anything you say through a UT filter.

Having said that, its still likely this has nothing to do with race.

It might or it might not. at this point, no information is really solid. I later clarified my statement to say that if it was uncovered that it was race-centric killing then it wouldn't be much of a surprise.

However, it seems like almost every Indian I come across has to make some annoying comment about black neighborhoods.

Even blacks make comments about black neigborhoods by moving out to the surrounding suburbs e.g., Detroit and it's suburbs Southfield, Warren, Farmington etc. I guess the annoyance factor may just be your perspective.

Even blacks make comments about black neigborhoods by moving out to the surrounding suburbs e.g., Detroit and it's suburbs Southfield, Warren, Farmington etc. I guess the annoyance factor may just be your perspective.

A lot of blacks will also not hestitate to move to a middle class black neighborhood. A lot of Indians tend to dismiss any black neighborhood as undesirable and that fact seems more obvious when you live in Atlanta which clearly has plenty of non ghetto black neighborhoods. Yet I have heard Indians comment frequently, "too many kallus in this mall". HELLOOOOO!! this is freaking Atlanta. It does not have to be a ghetto mall to see a lot of blacks.

when did i say otherwise?

What else could be your implication to saying that blacks are overrepresented in hate crimes - to somehow unwedge the foregone conclusion that whites commit most hate crimes. but that conclusion is unwedgeable, because it's... true.

there have been a few post here on SM about desis facing post-911 xenophobia at the hands of black males.

which is exactly why I said this:

and you simply don't see that in the same #'s with blacks.

I'm actually a current engineering Phd student at Duke. I didn't know Abhijit well, but I have met him a couple times, from which i could tell he was a great mind, and warm person. This is a tragic event for the Duke community and the Duke South Asian community as well. However it is not wise to jump to conclusions about this being a 'hate' crime as all evidence so far points to a random, senseless robbery...part of a crime wave which has swept through Durham(the city which hosts Duke) in the last few weeks. This is a law and order problem rather than a race-relations issue, and using labels like 'hate' simply confuse the issue.

Roger, thank you so much for taking the time to comment.

"Fair enough, but who's done that? This is a straw-man. It's about economics, and where international graduate students can afford to live, I think."

Again as a current grad student I know plenty of Indian international students. It is NOT the case that they are living in any 'worse' areas than other students. In fact they are far more likely to use on-campus housing, which costs about 3 times as much as off-campus housing in the area. This is for many reasons, including that they are not that comfortable with the American system, they don't usually have cars, and they often overestimate the danger of the surrounding area. Most of them come from affluent families, in real-dollar terms. If you come to Duke you will understand immediately that many of your pre-conceptions about the 'poor' overseas Indian grad student are incorrect. In fact one of the most impressive observations I have made since coming here has been the tremendous integration of the Indian overseas grad students into the Duke student body as a whole. They mix extremely well with other communities, and do not segregate themselves at all.
Also where Abhijit lived is adjacent to the Duke campus, in not a particularly bad area.

Manju, keep fighting the good fight. I agree with you 100%. I understand why people have told HMF to go back to his own damn country.

I have to agree with Roger.

In December (a month ago) flight to Delhi, I sat next to two Duke MBA students (couple soon to be engaged) from India. They both had worked in industry (both in India and US) before enrolling at Duke, and seem quite affluent, and cosmopolitan.

Therefore, a lot of stereotyping here, is due to narrow perceptions of commenters themselves, as often.

120 · HMF said

What else could be your implication to saying that blacks are overrepresented in hate crimes

well you claimed:

if indeed it's uncovered that it's the result of a sub standard living, uneducated white person who's lived there and feels that as his territory, it wouldn't be much of a surprise, given the propensity of those residents to harbor those feelings

Nala aked if you'd say the same thing if we replace "white" with "black" and you said no based on your personal experience. but DOJ stats show that blacks commit hate crimes at an even higher rate than whites. so my implication is that your personal experience is limitd to reading malocom X's autobio on a dateless saturday night, not unwedging the "foregone conclusion that whites commit most hate crimes" which i have no gripe with.

there have been a few post here on SM about desis facing post-911 xenophobia at the hands of black males.

which is exactly why I said this:

and you simply don't see that in the same #'s with blacks.

Prejudice is there in all races. And if you look at some examples, you will even find racism. Look at Uganda under Idi Amin. That was not just a prejudiced regime, but racist.

but DOJ stats show that blacks commit hate crimes at an even higher rate than whites. so my implication is that your personal experience is limitd to reading malocom X's autobio

And I'm saying given the stark difference between the population split (say 83% to 12%) the even over-representation of blacks in hate crime offense doesn't contradict my personal observations of having experienced less claims on personal ownership & entitlement based on principle, of US resources and land.

Either way, hate crime offense and laying personal ownership to the US land (from a principle point of view, not a historical injusticed one) are not the same thing, nice attempt to conflate the two.

And gee, how dare you insult me by saying I've read and understood one of the most influential and important books of the entire 20th century.

Manju, keep fighting the good fight. I agree with you

yes, please do continue on with the misrepresentation, it seems many other contenders have thrown down the gauntlet already.

I understand why people have told HMF to go back to his own damn country

which in all likelihood is the same as "your damn country" Mr. bachan. At any point do you plan to actually attempt to answer the actual point?

HMF, please stop... you're doing a disservice to black people everywhere.

I might actually take that advice, but it didn't rhyme.

128 · HMF said

Either way, hate crime offense and laying personal ownership to the US land (from a principle point of view, not a historical injusticed one) are not the same thing, nice attempt to conflate the two.

I conflated? You introduced the possibility of a hate crime then related it to whites having "a personal ownership to the US land."

And I'm saying given the stark difference between the population split (say 83% to 12%) the even over-representation of blacks in hate crime offense doesn't contradict my personal observations of having experienced less claims on personal ownership & entitlement based on principle, of US resources and land.

so, unable to defend your position, you now try to claim all your maintaining is the banal obvious point that there are more whites than blacks therefore you've experienced more xenophobia at the hands of whites than blacks. you've managed to misrepresent yourself.

You introduced the possibility of a hate crime then related it to whites having "a personal ownership to the US land."

Because, believe it or not, in a white context, the two have much higher correlation. Again, I'll refer you too... any history book in existence.

so, unable to defend your position, you now try to claim all your maintaining is the banal obvious point that there are more whites than blacks therefore you've experienced more xenophobia at the hands of whites than blacks.

unable to defend? how about too busy correcting your bullsh*t represntations? why do you keep generalizing to terms like 'xenophobia' and 'hate crime' when I was making a very specific statement about sentiments on being 'the true/rightful owners' of US land? Are you going to seriously sit there and tell me this sentiment is held by blacks and whites equally? get a clue. (just don't ask clueless, he's running low)

125 · Kush Tandon said

I have to agree with Roger.

In December (a month ago) flight to Delhi, I sat next to two Duke MBA students (couple soon to be engaged) from India. They both had worked in industry (both in India and US) before enrolling at Duke, and seem quite affluent, and cosmopolitan.

Speaking from experience (still a grad student): While brown students doing MBA and Law tend to be more affluent (either due to family affluence but more due to saving in jobs) most grad students in science and engg come from moderate income households. Some of them work a year in India to save money for the trip and make things economically better at home. Most of these students opt for graduate housing in the first year and then move to less expensive housings, if available, in order to save money. So 'affluence' amongst Indian grad students (barring MBAs and Law) is more of an exception than a norm.

(Roger @123)
Lastly, mixing well with rest of the community is more of a cultural thing than economic issue. So what is your point ? For that matter, grad students from Africa also mix well with the community.

which in all likelihood is the same as "your damn country" Mr. bachan.

That's right...but I don't share the same (in my view irrational and extreme) attitudes towards white people that you do.

132 · HMF said

why do you keep generalizing to terms like 'xenophobia' and 'hate crime' when I was making a very specific statement about sentiments on being 'the true/rightful owners' of US land?

B/c general xenophobia and hate crime stats are much more relevant(though, not too relevant as i and others have tried to point out to you) to this post than your pedantic focus on rightful owner sentiment. If this guy was the victim of a hate crime, and that's a big if, the motive is not going to be restricted to ownership sentiment that you claim blacks don't exhibit as mcuh as whites. your focus on a hate crime was itself fairly irrelevant, this is even more irrelevant. but the whole point of you bringing this up is presumably to make the larger point that blacks are less xenophobic and therefore less likely to commit a hate crime, despite your attempts to misrepresent yourself.

but the only evidence of a hate crime is the alleged waive of violence targeting latinos. the suspects are black. DOJ stats show blacks are over represented in hate crimes, as we've gone over. surveys show that blacks have similar views on immigration as whites. bloggers and commentators, who get out more than you, have personally testified to xenophobic treatment at the hands of non-whites.

but in your bizaare world you can still answer no to nala's question.

While brown students doing MBA and Law tend to be more affluent (either due to family affluence but more due to saving in jobs) most grad students in science and engg come from moderate income households

Thats mostly a function of the fact that LAW/MBA students are self financed (like most international undergrads) while science/engg grad students are usually TAs/RAs etc.

B/c general xenophobia and hate crime stats are much more relevant(though, not too relevant as i and others have tried to point out to you) to this post than your pedantic focus on rightful owner sentiment.

That may very well be, but it wasn't the point I was making.

If this guy was the victim of a hate crime, and that's a big if, the motive is not going to be restricted to ownership sentiment that you claim blacks don't exhibit as mcuh as whites.

what do you mean that 'I claim' I claim it, as does every reasonable history book in existence. Also, there's a big nuance you are missing, not all hate crime is race motivated, some is sexual orientation, among other things. So much of the black-offender hate crime could be just that. The stats would need to be consulted, which I dont have time for right now.

DOJ stats show blacks are over represented in hate crimes,

and again, as we've gone over, blacks also make up a significantly less proportion of the population, and how much of that representation is 'race based' hate crime?

As far as immigration, again a myopic, half-truth perspective. The black impetus against immigration is quite different than the xenophobic "get the bronwn people out" that whites adhere too. For example, if you read here It's usually a case of "immigrants are rising on our backs" which has clear historical precedent with the slew of white immigrants, ie. irish, greek italians, the black communities issues against immmigration comes from far different place than the white one.

Yet, count on you to nonsensically equate the two. It's a historical misread that's uniquely manju.

but in your bizaare world you can still answer no to nala's question.

The truth would seem bizarre to someone who distorts it.

Are you going to seriously sit there and tell me this sentiment is held by blacks and whites equally?

In this case crime ---> caused by guns.
The ownership sentiment about this piece of property is the same in whites and blacks.
The brown ownership sentiment in this category is woefully lacking.

In this case crime ---> caused by guns.

Saying that guns caused this crime is kind of like saying matches cause house fires. In both cases it's the hand that holds the item to blame.

Read on...
It's the ownership sentiment. Although I blame the matches for my smoking.

but in your bizaare world you can still answer no to nala's question.

by the way, I answered "not really" because, despite your attempts to cast my position as some kind of absolute declaration, I'm making a relative comparison, based on a group's history. But I do agree, that it's not fully clear that this incident is the result of a race based hate crime.

The black impetus against immigration is quite different than the xenophobic "get the bronwn people out" that whites adhere too. For example, if you read here It's usually a case of "immigrants are rising on our backs" which has clear historical precedent with the slew of white immigrants, ie. irish, greek italians, the black communities issues against immmigration comes from far different place than the white one.

Yet, count on you to nonsensically equate the two. It's a historical misread that's uniquely manju.

i certainly equate the two. there are more similarities between black resentment of Koreans for example and white feeling of encroachment than there are differences, especailly when a dead body is at stake. all peoples exhibit xenophobia, though it may take different forms. mexicans have a sense of ownership of their land too, which is why guatemalans can't get in. we may have different histories, but when you boil it down, we're all bloody racist.

now you can go ahead and nitpick the differences in order to justify one over the other, buit i don't play that game. i'm a simple man.

While it may be true Generally that science/engineering students are less well off than law/MBA, and even at Duke. What I am saying is that the Indian science/engineering students here, either master's or phd, ARE well off with respect to people from other countries.

With regards to 'mixing,' you are right that people from other places, like Africans and Europeans, often mix well this often happens in non-science or engineering fields. In those fields Indians have always done all-right socially. However with Indians in science and engineering, who someone pointed out are often less well of(those in liberal arts more often have rich families willing to support such inane endeavors(jk btw), there is often this mutual suspicion, which happens with other Asian students as well. It results partly from the way people have been educated, and what they consider important academically. While it is a stereotype, Indian and Asian students 'look down' on other students when it comes to pure technical ability, while the reverse is true regarding thinking ability/creative ability/ social skills, etc. It is also in the way the students interact with the professors. You will always see even first year grads who were raised in the US call their professors by their first name, while Indians still use 'Sir' or Madam. The Europeans seem to adapt quicker to this 'equality' than Indians, as do Africans, who you wouldn't expect to due to their similar background to Indians.

However at Duke this doesn't seem to be the case. The Indian students adapt much quicker, and I have to commend the Duke administration, faculty and general system for this. Particularly regarding Indian students who are seriously a strong force here at the grad schools in business and engineering, well represented both as faculty and students. Having a strong contingent of Indian professors and older grad students helps the newcomers to feel at home very quickly. I don't want to sound like I'm 'hyping' Duke relative to other schools, however people get this idea that Duke is an 'elitist' institution...a White establishment type place. This has been unfortunately reinforced by events of the last couple years. Even I was wary when I first came here this year. However I was wrong. Not only is this school very well integrated and very diverse...in comparison to places like UCLA, Berkeley which I am familiar with, but there is constant and active effort on the parts of students and faculty to make it even more so. When you walk around you hardly see groups of people of only one ethnicity. In fact, if you take a camera and click randomly, almost every picture seems like it could be a post-card for diversity. Its really beautiful, and how more colleges should be.

there are more similarities between black resentment of Koreans for example and white feeling of encroachment than there are differences, especailly when a dead body is at stake

I whole heartedly disagree with this. Black resentment of Koreans has to do with the Korean's (and other minorities, in particular in the 50's and 60s, white minorities) rising on the backs of the blacks, etc. You call it a nitpick to actually take into account a sociological difference? Fine. I'll continue increasing my understanding of this in a sophisticated fashion, while you trot around with your "everyone's racist" chant.

With a murder in hand, it doesn't matter as much, I'll agree, it's just which one is more likely to result in murder, that's the real question.

we're all bloody racist

Typical white responsibility dodging answer, you're a committed UT. I'll give you that.

In fact on this thread, there are already several posts about Duke being 'elitist' and having poor relations with its community. The second part is unfortunately true in a sense. There is a mutual suspicion, that doesn't seem to exist as much with UNC and Chapel Hill. Partly this is due to the majority of Dukies being from outside the state, while UNC(a very good school as well) has a majority of students from NC. However I don't believe this is an error on the part of the school. Duke provides top-notch healthcare to the Durham community and is by far the largest employer. Duke students volunteer throughout. It is unfortunately true that there is not much equal interaction between the communities, but then college students usually only interact with other students and professors with other professors, wherever you go. There is a sense of resentment however, and surely Duke could be doing more to address that.

143 · Roger said

While it may be true Generally that science/engineering students are less well off than law/MBA, and even at Duke. What I am saying is that the Indian science/engineering students here, either master's or phd, ARE well off with respect to people from other countries.

Roger, I appreciate your comments; I have seen really great integration of DBD students in other ivy schools as well, and do not agree with your 2nd para about mixing. But what I am curious about is HOW did you decide that Indian science/engineering students are better off with respect to grad students from other countries ? It might just be that Indian students are better at saving money (which is a hallmark of a 1st-gen desi I think).

Typical white responsibility dodging answer, you're a committed UT. I'll give you that.

SM Intern, I thought calling people UT was a no-no? And HMF, why do think you're black?

SM Intern, I thought calling people UT was a no-no?

Being one should also be a no-no too.

You are right, 1st gen Desis have in the Past, seemed to be very good at 'saving.' That is in fact what will tip you of that here there is something different going on. The Indian students are equally good at Spending.. There is more comfort with dropping 40$ on a night out. They are more likely to look for cars, and nicer ones, than students from other countries. I don't think this is a Duke only phenomenon....I think this is a new Wave of 1st generation Desis....they are more confident in the world, more willing to spend, more Global in their outlook. They have experienced middle class lives, in which spending is as big a part of their life as saving. They were raised in a more confident India, and I would bet as time goes on this will be more and more the case.

With all this back and forth, unfortunately the poor kid (Abhijit) is getting completely forgotten. The tragic dimensions of what actually happened to an innocent, hard-working, bright student from India, are being lost. Someone who was proud of his culture and his family. Look at that guy...to think someone shot him dead is just so horrible. A crime that we have no evidence was a hate-crime...but we're discussing as a hate-crime needlessly anyway. And he didn't look like any Mexican I've ever seen.

Amitabh,

Believe it or not, I actually agree with you. I shoulder of the blame for my contributions to the veering off, I later clarified that I didn't intend to draw the hate crime conclusion a priori.

I wonder what steps Duke has taken to salvage their tarnished reputation, from what I understand there have been many incidents recently of this nature.

UT is a huge no-no, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Back on topic, please-- a life has been lost. Save the never-ending debating shenanigans for another thread, please.

And he didn't look like any Mexican I've ever seen.

I have to agree. If he was the unfortunate victim of some kind of black/Latino turf war, well, that's even more unfortunate.

Aside from the freeway system, what's confusing about the Bay's geography/demography?

Basically what you said about L.A. and the Bay Area not being satellite cities like NYC or Chicago, but moreso a network of cities. Especially since you need a car to get around. I love the Bay, though, and love visiting my relatives there.

HMF, if I was promoting a certain cause, I wouldn't want you repping it. So please, just stop.

I agree with Amitabh, Abhijit was not killed because he was Indian, or looked Mexican or whatever. He was killed senselessly, and it is such a horrible waste of talent and potential, and a great kid. Someone mentioned earlier about how SM wouldn't care as much if it was a gas station owner. You are right...we woudn't...that sort of thing happens 'regularly'. It doesn't make it less of a tragedy, but it does make it less of a 'story.' By saying that, however, you are demeaning what people like Abhijit have done. You are saying that 'who cares,' people from gas stations die all the time and no one 'gives a ****.' Leaving the only country you have known...coming here to study an esoteric subject like computational mechanics, in which there is No guarantee of future industry employment, takes an intrepid soul. It is that same intrepid soul that many of our parents had, those who came here as students many years ago. It is uniquely different than coming here with your family, with a job in place, or some on a 'family' visa with a motel in place for employment. The kid put his future on the line, so confident in his own abilities and so interested not only in his own future, but in Contributing to science and through that the world. My friend, who had a class with Abhijit, just called and told me her professor was so upset that he cancelled the class, and had a discussion with the students for 3 hours.

I know there is a larger number of SM posters who have 'anti-elitist,' anti-academic sentiments. However it is people like Abhijit who are going to improve your world. It is exactly this loss of potential that makes this a bigger story than if he was a gas-station owner.

HMF, if I was promoting a certain cause, I wouldn't want you repping it. So please, just stop.

Glad you took the advice to not use the thread pertaining to someone's death to grind your own ax.

Here is a letter from Duke's President Brodhead to all the students.

"
Dear Member of the Duke University Community,

I write to share my great sadness over the sudden and senseless death of Abhijit Mahato, a graduate student in the Pratt School of Engineering, who was murdered in his off-campus apartment this weekend. Having spoken with Professor Tod Laursen, in whose lab Abhijit was making important contributions, I have a sense of his great promise and endearing character. I extend my sympathy to Abhijit's friends and colleagues and to all members of the Indian and Hindu community for this appalling loss. A celebration of his life will be held in Duke Chapel later this week.

Since news of Abhijit's death was first reported by the Durham Police, many people at Duke have been working to provide support. I am grateful to Professor Laursen and his Pratt colleagues and to our International House for reaching out to students, especially our many international students, at this painful time. The professional staff of CAPS is providing counselling to those who need assistance. I met today with representatives of the Indian Ambassador from Washington to express our grief and concern for Abhijit's friends and family in India.

We have also learned from Durham Police that there has been a spike in armed robberies throughout Durham in recent weeks. This means that recent assaults on Duke graduate students are part of a larger issue. We have received assurances from city authorities that they will make every effort to investigate and resolve these issues. Meanwhile, under the direction of Associate Vice President for Campus Safety and Security Aaron Graves, Duke is increasing off-campus patrols by Duke Police in selected areas near the campus, consistent with our agreement with the city. Since this will divert some police personnel from their usual campus responsibilities, the university is increasing its use of hired security forces to maintain a strong security presence on campus. A meeting is also being scheduled with off-campus landlords to discuss improving security in facilities that have experienced recent crimes.

On Wednesday at 7:30 p.m., an open forum for the Duke Community will be held in the Schiciano Auditorium of the CIEMAS Building. Aaron Graves, Larry Moneta and other university officials as well as representatives of the Durham Police will answer questions and review the things each of us can do to help ensure our own safety.

Finally, anyone with possible information about Abhijit Mahato's death or any of the recent robberies is encouraged to contact the Duke Police at 919-684-2444 or Crimestoppers at 919- 683-1200.

Richard H. Brodhead"

154 · Roger said

Someone mentioned earlier about how SM wouldn't care as much if it was a gas station owner. You are right...we woudn't...that sort of thing happens 'regularly'.

Wrong. We have covered such cases or "stories". We don't have some bizarre scale with which to decide whose death merits a post. I don't think anyone here expects gas station or convenience store owners to die and is thus, blase when such a senseless murder does occur.

I know there is a larger number of SM posters who have 'anti-elitist,' anti-academic sentiments.

Wrong again, and thankfully so, though this idea bubbles up from time to time. The majority of our commenters aren't idiots or hypocrites. Relative to the rest of the country, I'd say most of us have "elite" and "academic" backgrounds.

Anna...sorry my comments came out wrong, just a little upset at some of the comments that seemed to imply that this was not a 'huge deal'. I have only been reading/commenting here for a little while, and that was the impression I got. And by SM I meant commenting community, not the blog postings. I also really believe there is less of a distinction between the 'gas-station' owner kids and the kids of professionals than many here make out. I don't believe there is really a class distinction here. After all those kids of gas station owners usually end up going ot the same colleges as the supposedly 'higher class' desis.

Having a 'elite' or 'academic' background doesn't necessarily mean that one does not harbour anti=elitist sentiments....after all many socialists are very well educated.

Glad you took the advice to not use the thread pertaining to someone's death to grind your own ax.

I didn't see that before I commented... apologies to ANNA.

After all those kids of gas station owners usually end up going ot the same colleges as the supposedly 'higher class' desis.

Have you been to Queens, NY? The desi kids there (many of them) are not heading to college. Rather, after barely graduating from bad high schools, they go straight into construction, transport, small business (which sounds more glamorous than it really is), etc.

159 · Roger said

Having a 'elite' or 'academic' background doesn't necessarily mean that one does not harbour anti=elitist sentiments....after all many socialists are very well educated.

Very true and thanks for the clarification. :) Again, I'm really glad that someone from Duke is here, giving us such a valuable perspective and I'm glad you're here, period. We love our new mutineers.

Nala, don't apologize to me, lion cub. As has been noted in the past, often friends and family of the deceased google a name and end up right here...in this case, they might be perplexed at what has transpired on this thread, since, like our new friend Roger, they are probably unaware of the complex, continuous HMF v. Manju debate re: I-banking and Malcolm X which has spanned oh-so-many threads...

I also really believe there is less of a distinction between the 'gas-station' owner kids and the kids of professionals than many here make out. I don't believe there is really a class distinction here. After all those kids of gas station owners usually end up going ot the same colleges as the supposedly 'higher class' desis.

I don't want veer completely off-topic but I kind of have to disagree. Just based on my personal experience this isn't true, and I think coming from different class backgrounds is one of the (if not the) biggest 'barriers' when it comes to forming friendships and relationships, though I guess a few well-off 1st gen desi parents still maintain a more scrimp-and-save, more strict outlook that may make their children more understanding.

162 · A N N A said

often friends and family of the deceased google a name and end up right here...in this case, they might be perplexed at what has transpired on this thread, since, like our new friend Roger, they are probably unaware of the complex, continuous HMF v. Manju debate re: I-banking and Malcolm X which has spanned oh-so-many threads...

Heh. i was just thinking of that. what a freak i must seem like to outsiders looking in. especially the "lesbian paradise state" comment. people must be like "wtf?"

continuous HMF v. Manju debate re: I-banking and Malcolm X which has spanned oh-so-many threads...

I agree whole heartedly. This wasn't the place for it.

Roger @158, I completely agree with you about some people seem to slighting this tragic event, and thanks for a eulogy of sorts in @154. I really feel for his family back in India. What must they be going through, so far away..., so senseless is this that there can be no closure I think. Bless his soul and hope his family gets the strength to somehow cope with this.

Amitabh at #161- thanks for brining that up.

Roger, I know you're just trying to show how good your school has been for you, but I have to disagree with your characterization of Duke. I know it has a thriving South Asian community, and that's definitely something to be proud of. But I know people who went/go there who had really terrible racist and homophobic experiences, and didn't find much help either from the administration or the college's (often self-segregating, not the 'diversity postcard' you describe) South Asian community. I say this not to pick on Duke but just to point out that all schools have their problems (e.g. Harvard had that incident last year with some students calling the cops on a group of black students playing football on the quad). I'm glad you're having a great experience, but not everyone does.

While I'm at Duke now, I was raised in California, so I have a different experience maybe than those from NJ/NYC.
However over there it seems like there was little difference between the kids who's parents owned restaurants, gas stations or motels and those whose parents were doctors. We went to the same schools, maybe those of us which professional parents did slightly better academically since our parents could help us/ new better english/ were more involve in school, etc. However a lot of the time the professional parents took the initiative to help out the kids whose parents were a little less educated, for example my dad used to help me and my friends in math/english, including kids whose parents owned motels and gas stations. To be perfectly honest, many of those kids were as well of or better of in purely financial terms. In fact they were the ones more likely to have the nice car or expensive clothes. When it came down to university admissions...it is true that those kids without prof. parents had a greater chance of going to slightly worse schools, but on average we all went to the same 'level.' One big difference is that the kids with pro-parents were more willing to pay for big-ticket private schools.

Look.

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong.

I know cases where Roger is right, and those gas station owners' kids were my classmates, even though some of their parents didn't even have a high school education. Don't underestimate the overwhelming desire to have your children be more successful than you were.

I know cases where Amitabh and Nala are right, where desi kids laugh bitterly at what everyone assumes about their life and future, since it's nowhere near as shiny as outsiders might think.

I know people at Duke who felt welcomed and at home, I know people at Duke who felt the opposite.

Everyone is right, everyone is wrong.

Back. on. topic. Please.

168 · Roger said

While I'm at Duke now, I was raised in California, so I have a different experience maybe than those from NJ/NYC.
However over there it seems like there was little difference between the kids who's parents owned restaurants, gas stations or motels and those whose parents were doctors. We went to the same schools...To be perfectly honest, many of those kids were as well of or better of in purely financial terms...

Word. It's so funny, I was about to preface my last comment with how being a Californian made me see things the way you did, and now I find out why that is. :) The kids I knew from Fremont who lived in the Mission Hills, whose parents owned half-a-dozen stations, are finishing med school right now. California, no doubt about it. ;)

p.s. Sorry for having the last word while threadjacking! Eeek. If thought it was a significant point of clarification, I promise.

Nala..

I have been here only for a few months, so I don't begin to say that I am completely aware of everything that goes on here. I am only comparing it to the west-coast schools I have experience with. Everything is not perfect. However the south asian community is certainly better integrated than most places. One of the interesting things is that in almost every student newspaper there is an article about how there is not enough integration, between black-white, asian-white, athlete-other student integration. However this often seems like hyper-criticism, and in a sense it is good that people are aware of such issues and activly trying to resolve them. I don't know much about the situation with homosexuals, and I would tend to agree you may be right about that, unfortunately. The kids at Duke, while nice, all seem to come with a very 'normal' traditional upper middle class background and I could see that 'strangeness' may not be as well tolerated as maybe at Berkeley where there are probably larger communities of unique people.

However if you look at the demographics, you will find that the African american population here is nearly equivalent to the nationwide average( at 11-12%)...you won't find that at many schools. Asians/Indians are overrepresented as usual. There is really a good mix of students.(I am not making some sort of backdoor claim of AA here). If you really look around here, I think you would be impressed. On a side note the administration does have a sense of incompetence, which is often maligned.

Interesting, Roger, ANNA - I think we can agree that we're either all right, or all wrong. :)

53 · nala said

Someone upthread from Duke said that they signed a petition to encourage the Indian government to take action- what exactly can the Indian government do, if anything?

Nala, you asked sometime back how the Indian govt might help. The only thing that comes to mind is that they can push for a fair and speedy trial to bring some kind of closure. The Indian embassy was also involved in pushing for investigation in case of LSU tragedies.

Back on topic..right.

I think that one of the unfortunate effects of this tragedy is that the graduate Indian community may tend to turn more 'inward,' and people in India will be less willing to send their kids here. The point I was trying to make earlier is that I think there is a pretty good thing going here for the Indian grad kids, and I would hate to see that messed up. It is up to the administration, which has performed below par in the past, to really step up here and reassure the students 1.) that they are really equal members of the Duke community and 2.) their safety is considered the highest of priorities. As in an crisis, there is opportunity as well as tragedy, and here there is one to further strengthen the bonds between Duke and its international community.

Well on the most superficial of levels, Duke already seems more caring than LSU did, so yay Duke.

I hardly believe the Indian government can do much here. If the Duke administration needs to be 'pressured' to handle this right, that would be very very unfortunate. The Indian government CAN help ease the pain of Abhijit's family by helping to ease the transport of the body(assisting with the permits required , etc), helping the family keep in touch with Duke etc.

1.) that they are really equal members of the Duke community and 2.) their safety is considered the highest of priorities.

No offense here man, but you sound a bit like a duke PR official here more than a duke student. I've met many indian grad students, and how do I put it, but let's say if there was a way for students to leave bangalore, mumbai, delhi, wherever, in the morning, and beam over to [insert US school here] then beam right back over to India at the end of the school day, most would do it.

What I'm getting at here is, "integration with the local community" or isn't really priority #1. Although I think, "not getting dead" will be.

The Indian government CAN help ease the pain of Abhijit's family by helping to ease the transport of the body(assisting with the permits required , etc)

Thats exactly what they're doing.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080122/jsp/nation/story_8811098.jsp

Haha..I was afraid I was coming of that way. I didn't mean to order it that way...I meant that the administration has to perform, and give the impression it is performing to the same level as it would for any student. Certainly priority #1 is to ensure everybody's safety.

However while Indian grad students certainly feel homesick, there is a great deal that a good educational experience can do to convince them to stay here. Maybe some will hate it...but most do really like the opportunities and style of teaching at american universities, and most Do end up staying here....

LSU set up a "Komma and Allam support fund" to help the respective families. Is there anything being set up at Duke ?

First, my condolences to his family and friends.

Second, there's a bit more the Indian Government could choose to do than merely act as a conduit to handle Mr. Mahato's remains and assist his family members. While both of these things are important and must be handled efficiently and with compassion, other embassies when faced with similar acts have done different things. I remember the Japanese embassy issuing a travel warning to its citizens about the United States (specifically L.A.) after the robbery and death of its citizens. This was sometime in the 80's. I haven't found the article. I'm not suggesting that be done here. It's just something that could so embarrass a city/university that might spur it to further action due to the negative publicity.

The Indian government could also decide to send an advisory or report to its universities about which schools have a higher incidence of crime or where there have been reported robberies of its citizens. It would seem to have the effect of educating its citizens as to which schools have an issue with school safety and it would have the effect of encouraging universities to take a greater role in protecting foreign nationals/ increasing security in graduate housing. The universities often rely on graduate students for not only tuition but as a talent pool that replenishes their research programs. Therefore, it would be in their best interest to continue attracting this talent. (It would also be in the Indian Gov't interest as this talent would hopefully come back to India with knowledge and research obtained while working at U.S. institutions.)

I'm also aware of situations where an Embassy has assisted in hiring local legal talent to bring suits on behalf of their citizens where there has been some suspected malfeasance or negligence that has resulted in the deaths of their people. BTW, the LSU situation seems to cry out for litigation (i.e. inadequate security measures to LSU owned housing despite knowledge of prior violence and crime) while it doesn't appear there was anything specific with the Duke situation that would lead to the same conclusion. (that I'm aware of).

Just some ideas.

I do not want to extrapolate a trend from two stories (LSU and Duke), but I think the real story here is the pitiful stipends that are the norm for graduate students in most schools, and which, while technically enough to live on, force students to make risky decisions about where they live in order to save a few greenbacks.

A very wealthy school in the city I live in went on a grad housing construction binge a few years ago, and chose a part of town near campus which was basically full of abandoned warehouses, and is still next to a meth clinic. You can often see a few people in a drunken stupor sprawled on the sidewalks etc., and while the neighborhood is showing signs of being cleaned up, it is still not exactly safe, especially for grad students who go to and leave work at all hours of the night. All this while reclaiming existing grad housing that was in the heart of campus and using it to house undergrads (because they probably pay the big tuition dollars and demonstrate more alum loyalty too). The grad housing that they have built, while certainly nice, is also 1.5-1.6x more expensive than what you can find if you go off-campus, as a result of which many people I know don't choose this option, allowing the university to claim that they don't need more grad housing because the current setup is under subscribed.

It is an awful cycle which can probably best be redeemed by cheaper and more plentiful on-campus housing or higher stipends, but I guess it is hard to make long-term change happen given the temporary nature of the grad student population, and the fact that the majority of them focus more on their labs and their research rather than "leadership" or "community issues".

(The town is big enough that poor university investment in the town, like in Yale, Duke etc., is not a reason for the impoverished neighborhoods. Those schools bear an additional responsibility, over and above what I describe above).

In response to the last poster I repeat that it would be very unfortunate if the Indian government did any such thing. The fact is that some places have worse crime rates than others. Duke, like many others, is a great academic institution where great things happen daily, which happens to be in a high-crime locality. It would be sad if Indian students were turned away to attend lesser institutions, due to things beyond the Universities control. Johns Hopkins and UPenn have high rates of crime as well, they are also great universities. Thousands of American students choose these universities in spite of the risks associated. For the Indian government to issue a 'warning' is ridiculous, and is what should be done, for example, for people traveling to the border regions of Pakistan, not small town Durham. For the vast majority of students, life is unaffected by crime.

The Indian government can make a pamphlet advising students on the dangers inherent of living in high-crime cities.

I do not know of any fund as of yet, I will try and find out.

183 · Roger said

For the Indian government to issue a 'warning' is ridiculous

Why is that ridiculous? If a warning merely educates the graduate student, it's his/her decision where he/she decides to go.

It is ridiculous because it would unduly influence the decision of potential students. This was a tragedy for sure. But one casualty out of tens of thousands of students, in a non-hate crime situation, hardly seems like a case for a travel warning. Essentially there is no more likelihood that the next murder of an Indian grad student will happen at Duke than at USC. It would be like the UK issuing a travel warning to NYC due to the potential of a terror attack.

Have you been to Queens, NY? The desi kids there (many of them) are not heading to college. Rather, after barely graduating from bad high schools, they go straight into construction, transport, small business (which sounds more glamorous than it really is), etc.

That sounds alot like the desi youth in Vancouver. I wonder if they come from the same part of India.

But one casualty out of tens of thousands of students, in a non-hate crime situation, hardly seems like a case for a travel warning

No, how about 3 cases of murdered students from India, in a short time span, and in relatively speaking the same geographical region (southern schools)

It would be like the UK issuing a travel warning to NYC due to the potential of a terror attack.

Funny enough, they've done just that. Sadly enough, I wish the Indian people had a more balanced view of what America is like. I'm beginning to think more and more that you're on the Duke payroll.

*shakes head*

C'mon Anna, even you have to face facts. Why title this blog post "another DBD PhD student..." I assume you weren't referring to a 1993 case, and calling this "another" with respect to that.

That sounds alot like the desi youth in Vancouver. I wonder if they come from the same part of India.

I don't want to feed trollish statements. But I just want to emphatically say no, not entirely so. The biggest desi groups in Queens are Bengalis (both west & east), Punjabis, Gujaratis, Indo-Caribbeans, and Malayalees. Recently there's been an influx of Sri Lankan Tamils as well.

Sadly enough, I wish the Indian people had a more balanced view of what America is like.

I don't know what your view of balance is, but grad students coming from India see a fairly rosy America on average, in the long run. And the poor uncultured ignorant Indians are indeed aware of the fact that the Great Land of America has crime. (Even in Abhijit's case, his mother says that she had not wanted for him to go to the US).

No, how about 3 cases of murdered students from India, in a short time span, and in relatively speaking the same geographical region (southern schools)

Not to forget that they are both big sports schools. You know, while we are correlating on irrelevant factors, why not add more to the mix?

HMF why the hell do live in country with such high % of the population of the people being white. There are alot of countries in the world where whites make a small % of the population, I think you could be very happy there telling you new friends stories of the white devils of United States.

Heck I will even pay for you one way ticket out of evil whitey land.

189 · HMF said

C'mon Anna, even you have to face facts. Why title this blog post "another DBD PhD student..." I assume you weren't referring to a 1993 case, and calling this "another" with respect to that.

I'm shaking my head because I can see that Roger is taking this a bit personally (something I have tons of experience in) as any Duke student/alum might. I can also see that JJ makes excellent points, because instead of viewing it the way Roger does, as aspersions cast on Duke and unnecessary fear-mongering, I see the possiblity of lighting a fire under university officials so that they do something, so that this case doesn't stagnate like the LSU murders.

The Indian government could also decide to send an advisory or report to its universities about which schools have a higher incidence of crime or where there have been reported robberies of its citizens.

I agree. Indian universities which send a significant number of graduates to US schools need to have this information easily available and may want to advise seniors on this as the students go through the school-selcection process. Clearly, this list will not be the only criterion, but could be a useful data point in deciding between comparable schools with similar stipends. Often students have multiple options. This safety-ranking, if used widely, also creates an additional pressure on university administration to address the housing issue and indirectly on local law enforcement to reduce crime rate.

FBI's web site has list of offenses known to law enforcement for most cities. [link (excel)]. They break it down by violent crimes and property crimes -- murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assaults, burglary, larceny, auto-theft and arson. It's trivial to map the cities/neighborhood to schools, create a per-capita crime rate and rank the schools. There is a big difference in violent crime rates between Irvine (126/188,535 = 0.07%), Durham (1957/208,932 = 0.94%) and Baton Rouge (2954/210,486 = 1.40%), but how many international students are aware of that while they are applying? Even when the students end up deciding to go to the "riskier" schools, they would at least know that they need to be extra careful.

185 · Roger said

It is ridiculous because it would unduly influence the decision of potential students. This was a tragedy for sure. But one casualty out of tens of thousands of students, in a non-hate crime situation, hardly seems like a case for a travel warning. Essentially there is no more likelihood that the next murder of an Indian grad student will happen at Duke than at USC. It would be like the UK issuing a travel warning to NYC due to the potential of a terror attack.

Roger,

I suggested a travel warning as one of many options that the Indian government could consider, I did not endorse a particular one for this situation. However, if a government truly wishes to exert pressure on an institution that seems determined to treat its foreign graduate class as underpaid serfs (which essentially forces them to live in dangerous housing) then that individual graduate student has little control or power to change that situation. However, if a government so chose, it could highlight instances of certain universities (and I would classify LSU as one) that does little to protect its graduate students based on the crime statistics. That act, the warning, a public embarrassment, often times has an effect. I understand your knee-jerk reaction to protect your new alma mater but the fact remains that certain universities (and organizations) (and I'm not suggesting Duke is one) will not change unless forced by some external pressure. (whether that be a warning or suit)

Why would a warning unduly influence an Indian graduate student? I don't follow this. Is he/she less capable of an American graduate student of weighing the risks and benefits of attending a particular institution when given the same information as an American student? Why should he/she be less educated to the risks when an American student is more aware of his country's crime statistics and the region around his institution while a foreign born student is unlikely to know these things. A foreign national should have the same amount of information regarding his housing and the attendant crime statistics as an American student to make a similarly informed decision.

The U.S. State Dept. issues travel warnings based on the remote possibility of avian flu, why should the Indian gov't take less consideration for its citizens.

I am on the Duke payroll...they pay me a graduate stipend, that some of you have much maligned as pitiful. How about 3 students murdered in the South? First of all that represents 2 incidents, with hundreds of thousands of students, this is less than 1/10th of a percent. Are you really saying that it is unsafe for Indian students to go to universities in the South?

Now you are ignoring other incidents. What about the the murder of Karishma Dhanak and family in UC Irvine? Thats the only one on the top of my head, but there are several I am sure. What about the rampage at Virginia Tech? There was at least one Indian kid killed there? What I am saying is these are random incidents, tragedies in their own right, but not evidence of some trend to be confronted.

But one casualty out of tens of thousands of students, in a non-hate crime situation, hardly seems like a case for a travel warning. Essentially there is no more likelihood that the next murder of an Indian grad student will happen at Duke than at USC.

If that is the case, then what is your problem with JJ's suggestion of listing schools with a higher incidence of crime? (I honestly don't know comparative numbers between Duke and USC, so I am not taking issue with that as much as your opposition to the idea).

Murder = sadness = anxiety = not the thread for our normal debates y'all. I'm just saying, view everyone's reactions a bit differently. Tread gently, like you have been (and keep in mind that I may be referring to comments we've nuked before you even saw them).

What about the rampage at Virginia Tech? There was at least one Indian kid killed there? What I am saying is these are random incidents, tragedies in their own right, but not evidence of some trend to be confronted.

VT was likely a one-off/random incident given the rate of occurrence of school shootings, but there is no evidence that this isn't another instance of neighborhood crime/robbery, which can hardly be classified as one-off and not indicative of trends?

I don't want to change the topic, but since we are talking about death of south asian. I wonder will there be a blog/post about a couple of South Asian murders in Canada in the last month.

A month ago 16 year old pakistani girl named Asqa Perver was killed by her father cause she would not wear a hijab to school. And in the last week here in Vancouver a 18month old punjabi girl was killed by father cause he wanted a son.

And the poor uncultured ignorant Indians are indeed aware of the fact that the Great Land of America has crime. (Even in Abhijit's case, his mother says that she had not wanted for him to go to the US).

Was it out of fear of violence though? My guess it's just a fear of the unknown. And it's not a sentiment of "america is evil" that I'd suggesting be pushed abroad, but rather an accurate description of the relative differences. The indian grad students I met have all told me "we follow the ratings blindly" which means they know little to nothing of the differences in socio-economic history of the cities in which these schools are situated in.

Not to forget that they are both big sports schools.

No youtube link of a duke sports game? again, if it's so irrelevant that two big southern universities have had similar incidents in a short span of time.. why are we discussing it? Seriously, you might try toning down the sarcasm, ya know.. on a thread discussing a student with a bullet in his head. (which I should've done from the first place, I agree)

You know exactly why I titled it so.

Actually I don't. I assume because a similar incident occurred recently in time and space. That's an educated guess.

I see the possiblity of lighting a fire under university officials so that they do something, so that this case doesn't stagnate like the LSU murders.

exactly. but what's the sad but true supposition behind that? That it took the LSU murders to light that very fire.

I think some of the commenters have really nailed the issue which this tragedy and the LSU murders share, which we should highlight-- international students needing to save money, being paid a modest amount, trying to send cash home...all of that leads to living in undesirable locales. We all make trade-offs. I don't have an eat-in kitchen in my studio, but I live somewhere safe. I could have a one-bedroom where my fridge is NOT in my closet, but what happens when I walk home from the subway late at night? My choice about being able to cook is trivial compared to what these people are trying to juggle.

How many graduate students are endangering their lives by living in sketchy places?

The indian grad students I met have all told me "we follow the ratings blindly" which means they know little to nothing of the differences in socio-economic history of the cities in which these schools are situated in.

Which is what most rational people would do, because the benefits of going to a higher-ranked school seem to outweigh the costs of going to that school if it's in an unsafe area. These incidents are unfortunate, but I don't think they're indicative of a trend against Indian grad students in particular.

No youtube link of a duke sports game? again, if it's so irrelevant that two big southern universities have had similar incidents in a short span of time.. why are we discussing it? Seriously, you might try toning down the sarcasm, ya know.. on a thread discussing a student with a bullet in his head. (which I should've done from the first place, I agree)

HMF, IIRC the killers in the LSU case were black. There's been some indication that that might be the case here too. So what conclusions can I draw from this (or does it only apply to black people from the South)?

Are you really saying that it is unsafe for Indian students to go to universities in the South?

What I'm saying is, Indian students who are normally accustomed to following US News and World report ratings blindly, should have more information available to them about the schools they attend in terms of the history of that region vis a vis other region, and socio-economic status of the people nearby etc.. Rather than just thinking the US is some kind of monolithic fat hog that can be bled for a little green.

Many of you are calling the stipend we get here miniscule. I can tell you now that there are no Phd students living like serfs. The stipend is around 15-20 thousand/year for 2 years, and 35 thousand after that. In North Carolina that is more than enough to get a nice apartment(600-800 for your OWN apartment, 300-400 for a room in a shared one) in as safe an area as possible. It is enough to eat out twice every single day, and to buy a decent laptop and whatever else you will need. This is in addition to all tuition paid and additional stipends for school supplies etc. Sure it is not enough to invest, but that isn't the point. We are not employees of Duke, we are students. In fact a lot of students buy a house on the stipend their third year. In addition science/engineering grad students know from day 1 that if it is money they want, there are financial/management consulting firms that are recruiting for very high salaries and lucrative summer internships. If a grad student tries to save money by choosing housing in a more dangerous location, he will have gone against the advice of the school. Note that Abhijit did not do this, and was living in a safe area adjacent to the school. The point is that the entire area has a high incidence of crime, and it often does seep into Duke. I think you are overly concerned about 'Indian' students, when there are many other students here affected by violent crime, including people that live on the main part of campus. Kids also do much more dangerous things than walk outside their apartment. For example we might go out to downtown Durham and get drunk until the clubs close at 2 AM...What I am saying is that when a student is cautious, like Abhijit, then the chance of bad things happening is very small. Not that it doesn't happen of course, but it is sufficiently rare that we should not worry about it as a problem for incoming grad students, but a separate law and order issue for the surrounding area.

The Indian government could point to crime statistics that are already available on the internet. I only object to them issuing a school specific warning, when the overall incidence is so low.

but I don't think they're indicative of a trend against Indian grad students in particular.

change that to 'a trend of crimes against Indian grad students in particular.' Though if the circumstances they deal with lead to them living in more unsafe areas, that's something schools have to deal with RE: graduate stipends.

Which is what most rational people would do

I'm not saying they shouldn't , but that shouldn't be the only source of information.

No youtube link of a duke sports game? .... Seriously, you might try toning down the sarcasm, ya know.. on a thread discussing a student with a bullet in his head.

Aww, HMF, how tenderly you word things. Brings tears to my eyes, it does.

if it's so irrelevant that two big southern universities have had similar incidents in a short span of time.. why are we discussing it?

Because if one was not looking at every event in this world through a narrow pinhole of bigotry against southerners, one might see that there are other issues like the penury of grad students that might be more logically correlated with these incidents. Why is it more acceptable to baselessly say that "the south is a bad place" than "don't live in neighborhoods that are predominantly populated by people of a certain ethnicity"?

might see that there are other issues like the penury of grad students that might be more logically correlated with these incidents

I'm not discounting that factor, oh god of youtube. However, our resident Duke representative has already stated that the area which he lived in wasn't "a bad neighborhood"

Why is it more acceptable to baselessly say that

how is it baseless? My basis for saying the south is an undesirable place have nothing to do with this incident.

Aww, HMF, how tenderly you word things. Brings tears to my eyes, it does.

Real ones? or one's that drip on flash video sites?

However, our resident Duke representative has already stated that the area which he lived in wasn't "a bad neighborhood"

how is it baseless? My basis for saying the south is an undesirable place have nothing to do with this incident.

Must be the blacks and Latinos then.

Real ones? or one's that drip on flash video sites?

Way to follow your advice, and keep the sarcasm down, buddy. By the way, before you point it out, that "buddy" word right there, it was dripping with sarcasm. Real sarcasm.

I think some of the commenter's have really nailed the issue which this tragedy and the LSU murders share, which we should highlight-- international students needing to save money, being paid a modest amount, trying to send cash home...all of that leads to living in undesirable locales. We all make trade-offs.

How many graduate students are endangering their lives by living in sketchy places?

Although I agree that this is the problem, there is not enough information out there for a student who is moving 10,000 miles away. It is a known fact that almost every student who shows up to the USA spends his first month or two converting Dollars into rupees. When I came here, I found an apartment where there were lots of desis (that was my only known criteria). Luckily for me, the desi population had moved from the "bad" part of town into a better part of town. I have heard stories of people getting mugged and spotting sketchy people hanging out in the previous neighborhood.

But the fact remains that we (FOB's who come here for their education) are largely uneducated about the 'troubles' we could face.

This also goes back to the point about the media and the image portrayed. If not for Katrina and the images broadcast around the world, my parents and relatives would have had no clue about what perils exist here. I am not saying that Katrina is an everyday event, but it showed the world the side that no one gets, the difference in the socio economic strata that exists and all the trouble it causes, well unless you live here.

So blaming the new students is not really going to work, it should be the Universities that 'educate' new students on their surroundings, the Indian/ Asian student associations should take the lead.

Must be the blacks and Latinos then.

Way to follow your advice, and keep the sarcasm down,

Aww, HMF, how tenderly you word things. Brings tears to my eyes, it does.

Pot, Kettle.

Yes from the tone of your comments HMF, it seems as if you believe that being in the South makes living, for Indian students, especially dangerous. Why is it you think that? What about going to school in USC, which is in east LA, or Detroit or Baltimore with their high murder rates. The south is not exclusive in having crime....

Here is a table of murder rates in the US
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=169

If you look, it is true that Louisiana has a very high murder rate. North Carolina is also above the national average. Yet it is below California, Michigan, Maryland, all of which have schools of a high academic reputation.

Pot, Kettle.

HMF, you are misrepresenting me. Waaah! Waah!

I wasn't the one who asked you to tone down your sarcasm, or introduce the poisonous crap into this thread.

Pot, Kettle.

Sorry, I meant to say this

Yes from the tone of your comments HMF, it seems as if you believe that being in the South makes living, for Indian students, especially dangerous. Why is it you think that?

No, that's not what Im saying, I'm saying, it is a bit uncanny that two incidents, involving 3 victims from the same national origin occurred in two schools closely geographically situated. I agree to your points re usc an detroit, but that information isn't highlited or made readily available to these students coming over. That's the point.

I think you are overly concerned about 'Indian' students, when there are many other students here affected by violent crime, including people that live on the main part of campus. Kids also do much more dangerous things than walk outside their apartment. For example we might go out to downtown Durham and get drunk until the clubs close at 2 AM...What I am saying is that when a student is cautious, like Abhijit, then the chance of bad things happening is very small.

Roger,

It's an Indian fellow who's dead. It follows on the heels of LSU. That's why there's a concern. Believe it or not, I think all human life is valuable. (except the lives of those who are child molesters, rapists and serial killers, they can all fry - but that's for another day) It just so happens we are discussing issues related to Indian graduate student and methods/means by which their safety can be enhanced. Wouldn't it be logical to assume that if safety for grad students were increased a natural by product would be increased security on campus over all?

The Indian government could point to crime statistics that are already available on the internet. I only object to them issuing a school specific warning, when the overall incidence is so low.

I chuckled to myself when I read this. I chuckled not because of anything inherently wrong with your statement or anything about the maker rather, your desire to have people avail themselves of the internet, a venue which is not normally known for its accuracy. Why limit it to the internet? I think I've made my feelings clear why a school specific warning would be beneficial and I'm content to leave it at that.

HMF, you are misrepresenting me. Waaah! Waah!

really, I misrepresent by directly quoting?

I wasn't the one who asked you to tone down your sarcasm

How very glad I am, you're able to stick to your sarcastic guns in the face of such tragedy. Too bad youtube didn't exist on 9-11.

No, that's not what Im saying, I'm saying, it is a bit uncanny that two incidents, involving 3 victims from the same national origin occurred in two schools closely geographically situated. I agree to your points re usc an detroit, but that information isn't highlited or made readily available to these students coming over. That's the point.

Have you looked at a map of the U.S. recently? LSU and Duke are not 'closely geographically situated,' not even relatively, and you can't lump all of the South together either, Louisiana has a very different history than does North Carolina.

I think it would be 'uncanny' as well, if the killer(s) in this case turned out to be black, like in the LSU situation. But the completely unrelated point is really that international grad students don't know enough about the area surrounding the schools they're attending... ??

How very glad I am, you're able to stick to your sarcastic guns in the face of such tragedy.

That poor high horse you just got up on, how it must hate the low road you are leading it down. The South! Racists, all of them! This is a great thread for me to bandy my bigotry! Awesome! Whoop-de-f***ing-do!

Too bad youtube didn't exist on 9-11.

Is this your version of Godwin's Law? In any case, The Onion did.

Actually Karthik, I think that the idea that the socio-economic stratification of the US causes 'all the problems' is unfair and unfounded. Many academics would say that our high crime rate is due to excessive penalties for drug use, and an ill-advised attempt to crack down on it, among other political and cultural factors. Also we have widespread gun-ownership, which increases the possibility of death in a violent encounter. In fact the US murder rate has consistently fallen since the 1970's while our economic stratification has increased.

Take a look at these statistics:
1. Look at the GINI coefficient over time, a measurement of income inequality(it rises over the last few years)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

2. Look at the crime statistics
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

I believe we are in fact turning AWAY from the cultural/political problems that have caused our high crime rates, and they will continue to drop over time.

This is a great thread for me to bandy my bigotry! Awesome! Whoop-de-f***ing-do!

I don't bandy anymore. I haven't bandied for months.

I think it would be 'uncanny' as well, if the killer(s) in this case turned out to be black, like in the LSU situation

as would I. Do you have a link to the LSU ? have they charged anyone?

Roger, I think you're misreading Karthik...from his comment, I gleaned that

But the fact remains that we (FOB's who come here for their education) are largely uneducated about the 'troubles' we could face.

was his actual point. I know him IRL and have spoken to him about this exact subject, so that helps with the parsing. ;) I have met other DBDs at meetups who discussed how skewed their view of America was, and how they got that "wow, everyone's prosperous!"-vibe from the media.

I believe the case is still being investigated, they haven't charged anyone except for, recently, a man who offered false information and led the police on for weeks.

I'd say this entire thread has devolved to a pissing match, despite ANNA's admirable exhortations to retain some respect for the dead. 220+ and counting...? Will someone finally take the high road and check their ego?

Is this your version of Godwin's Law?

No, it's my version of there are certain events that will make me cast away my commitment to nail that perfect joke. but by all means, for some the show must go on.

And by the way, on a complete tangent, I've actually met two co-editors of the Onion, they had a completely different first NY issue planned, then 9-11 happened, they decided to re-write the articles to ack the tragedy, as their way of capturing what they felt the nation was feeling, ie "Holy F8cking Shit"

I hadn't realized your sarcasm was doing that.. maybe it's your version of godwins law.

224 · kusala said

I'd say this entire thread has devolved to a pissing match, despite ANNA's admirable exhortations to retain some respect for the dead. 220+ and counting...? Will someone finally take the high road and check their ego?

Alright, I'm done emptying my bladder.

Roger, what you say to some extent contradicts what Akash says, as well as an email that I received from an Indian friend who is a grad student at Duke:

The area where the student died was a bit shady- I wouldn't be surprised if it was a breaking and entering incident, and the student got shot in a random fashion.

The point of my comment is not to pile on Duke or to claim that they were negligent in any way - there are probably many reasons for the crime wave or high crime rate in Durham, and Duke might not be indirectly or even marginally responsible for the leading contributors.

As with the LSU case where posters wondered why there isn't a greater police presence around to protect residents of such crime ridden areas, here is what the The North Carolina Justice Academy (The NCJA is a state law enforcement training institution under the administration of NC State Attorney General) says on the matter of protecting citizens:

THE LEGAL DUTY OWED BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER TO PROTECT THE GENERAL PUBLIC IS LESS THAN YOU THINK !

One of the most misunderstood laws in this state is the legal duty of a law enforcement officer to protect the general public from physical harm. No matter what you have been taught in the past; no matter what your personal belief is concerning a moral duty to your fellow citizens; and no matter what some one may tell you after a careful reading of this bulletin; your LEGAL duty to protect the public is as follows:

1. "The general rule followed in this state is that ordinarily law enforcement agencies and officials are not under a duty to protect individuals from criminal actions of others unless there is a 'special relationship' between the injured person and the police or a 'special duty' arising because the police have promised protection to a particular individual." Hull, 407 S.E.2d at 615.
2. "Instead their duty is to preserve the peace and arrest lawbreakers for the protection of the general public." Lynch v. N.C. Department of Justice, 93 N.C. Alp. 57, 60; 376 S.E.2d 247, 249 (1989). Link

228 · Vikram

I think you may be overestimating the import of the "no legal duty by police to protect the public." That just means that if you're a crime victim, you can't sue the police for damages.

I don't know if anyone has seen this article, but one of the more interesting quotes, from a friend of the victim:

"I know Mahato used to walk home alone and he had mentioned he had coughed up money a couple of times to hoodlums,' she said.

I think you may be overestimating the import of the "no legal duty by police to protect the public." That just means that if you're a crime victim, you can't sue the police for damages.

I am just quoting the exact text of what NC Law Enforcement follows as its guidelines. That text was not for the public's benefit, but for the police officers. You can draw your own conclusions. There have been similar rulings in DC and other states. As a personal anecdote, I was in Baltimore some years ago in the harbor area when some tourists were reporting their vehicle was stolen to a couple of nearby police officers. The officers shrugged and said it wasn't their precinct and walked away, without any offer of help or offer of calling it into the right precinct. I think many foreign students are unaware as to how US Law Enforcement works/doesn't work. And perhaps the University should inform them as part of their orientation.

@HMF: Abhijit's father said that as well.

Once, Abhijit had mentioned that some local hoodlums in the area often asked him for money and he always paid up.

231 · Vikram I think many foreign students are unaware as to how US Law Enforcement works/doesn't work.

I don't think there are too many jurisdictions where you can sue the police for damages if you're the victim of a crime.
Of course, a "victim's compensation fund" paid for with taxes isn't a bad idea for a form of insurance, but that would compensate whether or not the police "screwed up."

I find it troubling that the victim never felt it necessary to complain to the cops in the past when he had to cough up money to hoodlums. Or did he? ANd the cops never paid attention? I guess we will find out in a few days.

I find it troubling that the victim never felt it necessary to complain to the cops in the past when he had to cough up money to hoodlums.

I was amused by this. It might have simply been bums hitting him up for change. I seriously doubt anyone would be repeatedly threatened with violence and pay up time after time.

To Roger:
The US government thinks it's important to gather and disseminate campus crime statistics and they force universities to do so under the law. I think all applicants to US institutions deserve to know more about the town where they will live. This is especially important for foreign applicants. In light of the events at Duke and LSU, I think the most beneficial action the Indian government could take would be to encourage US universities -- where hundreds of thousands of their citizens study and live -- to provide detailed information about crime statistics in the neighborhoods where current students live. This should be included along with every acceptance letter. People deserve to know that if you are going to live close to campus in Durham, Baton Rouge, West Philly, or Baltimore, that you're might very well live in a violent shithole and if you're close to campus in Ithaca, Urbana-Champaign, or Madison, such a fate is much less likely.

For those graduate/undergraduate students who are interested in learning about the crime statistics with their respective schools, here are a few links:
http://ope.ed.gov/security/main.asp. This link is from the Office of Post-Secondary Education, United States Department of Education. As per law, as Richard McBeef pointed out, the universities are required to self-report crime that occurs on their campuses. Another link is from the FBI's crime in the United States report. (2005 figures). There is a third site that culls information from both links, I just don't know who runs it. It's interesting that the third site notes that the FBI statistics may not match up with the self-reported university figures. I'm not sure if it specifically delineates crimes with respect to grads.

If you go to the FBI's crime in the US report, you can navigate through the site to obtain more information with respect to particular neighborhoods one may be interested in, so for instance you can look at Durham and see the crime stats for that particular county in 2005. Obviously, these statistics are based on reported crimes and were submitted by state and local agencies so that obviously might affect the accuracy. Besides the stats, if a grad can speak to someone else in the program about places to live and overall crime that might be just as useful as dry stats to determine where they should live and precautions to take.

ANd the cops never paid attention?

I remember an incident, from a midwestern school, when an Indian grad student was heavily beaten and bloodied (not killed, thankfully, I guess it must have been Blk history month, and the predominantly caucasian assailants were taking it easy), this student had gone to some university cops for help, and was laughed at by the very cops who were supposed to help him.

You can't force someone to accept someone, but you can make them accountable for not doing their job. I surely do hope this anecdote is acceptable to the WDL.

I know Mahato used to walk home alone and he had mentioned he had coughed up money a couple of times to hoodlums

Like I've said in another thread, this was a common occurrence outside Jersey city apartments. We considered it a rite of passage for a semester and moved on to a "nice, quiet mid-west university". The quotes are in deference to HMFs grinding axe.
I do not think you should analyze the word hoodlum. It is a fairly common descriptor used by DBDs.

Like I've said in another thread, this was a common occurrence outside Jersey city apartments.

I dont understand, it was a common occurence for random people to ask for money in a threatening manner and you to give it to them? Isn't that called robbery?

If they were described as "hoodlums", my only guess is they looked/asked for the money in a threatening manner.

Yes it is robbery. We as DBDs kept a fiver and a tenner. Each of us handed out a bill when accosted by 3 or 4 guys (teen/early 20s) who hung outside the complex. They were there most days and would take the money on an average of once a week. No guns were flashed. None of them said they would beat us or kill us. They just asked for money in a threatening manner. We saw them more frequently than the police. Anyway, it is not in a DBDs DNA to go to the police for this. The threshold for police intervention was set much higher. We called them hoodlums(not in earshot) and they called us walking ATMs(within earshot).

Yes it is robbery. We as DBDs kept a fiver and a tenner. Each of us handed out a bill when accosted by 3 or 4 guys (teen/early 20s) who hung outside the complex. They were there most days and would take the money on an average of once a week. No guns were flashed. None of them said they would beat us or kill us. They just asked for money in a threatening manner. We saw them more frequently than the police. Anyway, it is not in a DBDs DNA to go to the police for this. The threshold for police intervention was set much higher. We called them hoodlums(not in earshot) and they called us walking ATMs(within earshot).

Since you insist on dragging race into everything HMF, keep in mind these are not white guys that Amaun is talking about (correct me if I'm wrong Amaun).

A little more on our mind-set. Remember for the DBD student group this was our first semester in the US.
We knew these young guys were selling drugs. Obviously they had guns. Coming from India, you think the police may be in on this action since they were there most days. In retrospect, it is easy to see how this situation can spiral out of control. In my knowledge no student died outside those apartments during the few years that I kept track.

It's a pity that Indians subject so meekly to the thugs. This is why the cops in the Satendar Singh case felt no real urgency to go after the criminals because the dead guy's friends were so meek in seeking justice and were afraid to even support him openly. It is true quite a few cops show less urgency in solving a crime where Indians are victims compared to those where a white person is the victim. But how can you give up and not try to at least determine if you have a good cop or an indifferent cop in your neighborhood? There are still quite a few decent cops. I just don't understand how people can just submit to this kind of thuggery. And by caving in, you are just making it tougher for the next indian immigrant who wants to do something about it.

215 · HMF said

3 victims from the same national origin occurred in two schools closely geographically situated.

Say what?

Since you insist on dragging race into everything HMF, keep in mind these are not white guys that Amaun is talking about (correct me if I'm wrong Amaun).

Actually, I hadn't planned on dragging anything into it, I'm just trying to understand the mentality where someone feels it better to continually pay the "toll" so to speak rather than alert authorities, which amaun is explaining quite well.

These things can and do happen anywhere. It's not common in America only.

243 · Pravin said

It's a pity that Indians subject so meekly to the thugs. This is why the cops in the Satendar Singh case felt no real urgency to go after the criminals because the dead guy's friends were so meek in seeking justice and were afraid to even support him openly. It is true quite a few cops show less urgency in solving a crime where Indians are victims compared to those where a white person is the victim. But how can you give up and not try to at least determine if you have a good cop or an indifferent cop in your neighborhood? There are still quite a few decent cops. I just don't understand how people can just submit to this kind of thuggery. And by caving in, you are just making it tougher for the next indian immigrant who wants to do something about it.

I don't think you can establish a causal link between only the timidity of a victim's family or their lack of urgency in pressuring the police for action and the lack of action on the part of the police--it's far more complex than that.

I also think you're being glib when you talk about 'caving in' and 'making it hard for the next...' One can't know for sure what the potential mugger has or is capable of doing--even in Amaun's case where this was a regular occurrence, it wouldn't make sense for him to pull a Rambo--what's to stop the thwarted mugger from coming back for your friends later, when the tough DBD is absent?

"It is true quite a few cops show less urgency in solving a crime where Indians are victims compared to those where a white person is the victim"

Before you say something like this you should have proof.
...

I want to clarify what I said about Abhijit being in a 'safe' neighborhood. The area surrounding Duke is NOT the 'safest' part of Durham. However it is desirable due to its proximity to the University, especially for international students who don't have a car. For that reason it is not cheaper to live there than where I live, which is probably much safer but a few miles away. What I meant to say is that the area is not particularly worse than other areas, especially since it is very close to school. All things considered, Abhijit's decision to live there, irregardless of the cost, is not really a horrendous one, and did not cause his death.

The address of the crime scene is 1600 Anderson
Use that address in the following website and you will see that there have previously been 0 violent crimes within 1/2 mile since Jan 2006. There are a few incidents of burglary and motor vehicle theft:
http://www.ci.durham.nc.us/gis_apps/crimedata/dsp_entryform.cfm

I agree with Murali, I went to school in Philadelphia and the area where most graduate students lived was not safe. In most cases the people who asked for money were not from the neighborhood and the incidents were not reported due to fear of retaliation. The kicker is that the Indian students association at my school was not very forthcoming with information.

Sorry, there were 12 gun-related robbery incidents during that time. However no murder or rape. Also only 1 incident in in the apartment complex itself.

Before you say something like this you should have proof.

Just look at the amount of media coverage the LSU killings have received, as compared to say.. this. And with intense media coverage tends to follow intense investigation.

I went to school in Philadelphia

just curious, Penn? Drexel?

243 · Pravin said

It's a pity that Indians subject so meekly to the thugs. This is why the cops in the Satendar Singh case felt no real urgency to go after the criminals because the dead guy's friends were so meek in seeking justice and were afraid to even support him openly. It is true quite a few cops show less urgency in solving a crime where Indians are victims compared to those where a white person is the victim. But how can you give up and not try to at least determine if you have a good cop or an indifferent cop in your neighborhood? There are still quite a few decent cops. I just don't understand how people can just submit to this kind of thuggery. And by caving in, you are just making it tougher for the next indian immigrant who wants to do something about it.

Pravin,

While I understand your sentiment and I endorse the idea of people standing up for themselves, I think maybe some perspective might be useful. I think you'd have to show a bit of compassion for the fact that it's not easy for someone new to this country, who is not very familiar with the justice process, who's unsure of who to turn to, far from family, and who's lived most of their life not having to deal with crime on this level to fully fathom how it is that some people can allow themselves to be victimized. When my relatives from India came over to the U.S., one of the first things my father had me do was to explain to them where to go, where it was safe and what to do in certain situations. We lived in a shit neighborhood at the time and it was necessary. They also had another advantage, at the time, some people in the hood knew me and my family and knew we would stand up for our own. BTW, the cops, at that time, didn't have a reputation for being very responsive. So I can understand why some might be reluctant to turn to the police.

If the graduate student doesn't have a network or resources to turn to, they're more likely to allow themselves to be victimized. If you've never seen the business end of a gun or have been surrounded by a bunch of menacing faces it's very easy to say what to do when your not in that situation. IMO, the right move for most people when surrounded by a bunch of menacing threatening persons w/ or w/o a weapon is to turn over the cash. Now, if the numbers are equal and there are no weapons it might do well to stand you ground. But, I'm not advocating the std graduate student stand and fight but rather see what the situation is and analyze what their best options are for preventing and avoiding being the victim. That best option most of the time is calling the police.

Pravin does bring up a point that I have noticed is somewhat true, there is a perception among some non-desis that desis are meek. (at least in the US). I can't count the number of times, I've been asked "are you really indian, you sure don't act like one", usually said in response when I would pop off at someone (non desi) or get in the face of someone who had "disrespected" me. (Thankfully, I grew out of that machismo phase - I think). The funny thing is the punjabis and other desis I lived near never seemed meek to me, so I didn't understand where this perception came from. I really don't know if that perception, desis are meek, is based in any truth but the fact that it exists, may allow for bullies and thugs to view desis as better targets. In that respect, Pravin is correct, the more desis can find ways to assert themselves and protect their life and individual rights, the harder it will be for others to take advantage of other desis. I'm not sure, however, if it would have done anything to change this tragic event.

The one thing I would advocate for anyone, desi or non-desi, male or female, is to learn some type of self-defense, be aware of your surroundings and walk with a bit of confidence. Self-defense does not mean you fight in every situation (especially where one is confronted by a weapon- there you give up the cash) - it just gives you an option you might otherwise be uncomfortable with and the fact that your not uncomfortable with it will be evident to others.

I remember an incident, from a midwestern school, when an Indian grad student was heavily beaten and bloodied (not killed, thankfully, I guess it must have been Blk history month, and the predominantly caucasian assailants were taking it easy), this student had gone to some university cops for help, and was laughed at by the very cops who were supposed to help him.

You can't force someone to accept someone, but you can make them accountable for not doing their job. I surely do hope this anecdote is acceptable to the WDL.

after all that has happened in this thread, if this is not repeated race-baiting and trolling, i don't know what is. and again he calls people uncle toms except that he couches it in an analogy to the jewish defense league.

i am not one to ask for bans, idiots shouting in the public square do not bother me, but they do constantly derail threads. and comments like the one mentioned above are clear examples of malice explicitly intended for that purpose.

i don't see this troll ever add anything constructive, but it never fails to use every thread to yell its anti-white racism, misogyny, and frothing bias against the south, including a very sad one about a poor student whose hopes have been crushed and his family shattered by his death so far from home.

i don't comment much, and i am not going to respond further to this troll, but i would be curious to understand why the troll has been granted such a long leash.

is to learn some type of self-defense,

Krav Maga is a pretty good one for self defense, also, there's Hapkido for grappling situations, not to mention Savate.

but they do constantly derail threads. and comments like the one mentioned above are clear examples of malice explicitly intended for that purpose.

I offered an anecdote to respond to a claim of policemen not paying attention to incidents of violence directed against non-local people. I see it as telling the truth, if you see it as otherwise then make your voice heard. But don't duck and dodge under the guise of "trolling"

including a very sad one about a poor student whose hopes have been crushed

Since it concerns you so much to see a thread "derailed" to such a degree, I have personally written the mayor of durham and the gov of NC to urge a prompt and thorough investigation, sure it may not do or change much, but please don't try and twist and turn statements you disagree with into any kind of disrespect for the deceased.

I firmly agree with what the first "longtime lurker" said, and am astonished the intern does not see the "uncle tom" comment above as grounds for some sort of action--are those not the kinds of "abusive" and "personal" flames threatened with deletion in the comment policy? The repeated thread derailing by this individual has a negative impact on what used to be one of my favorite blogs.

i forgot to mention one other thing in my previous comment, i will add that and bow out now. the troll also continues to perpetuate fights by selectively quoting the people who take issue with its positions. a case in point is its response number 256 to my comment on 254, where again it decontextualizes sentences from my entire post, removing the gratuitous references that it had made to blk history month and caucasian assailants, as well as the wdl, especially when it had been told repeatedly (on this thread and others) not to namecall people who disagreed with it as ut's as well as not constantly bring up the hate crime bogey.

253 · Jangali Jaanwar said

The funny thing is the punjabis and other desis I lived near never seemed meek to me, so I didn't understand where this perception came from. I really don't know if that perception, desis are meek, is based in any truth but the fact that it exists, may allow for bullies and thugs to view desis as better targets.

I think Punjabi culture is the most martial out of all Desi subcultures. You also have to differentiate between DBD grad students and ABDs. Most DBD grad students in math/sci are sort of nerdy looking with thick glasses. Add the funny accent and naivete and they become conspicuous easy pickings for the thugs.

are those not the kinds of "abusive" and "personal" flames

I can quote equal "abusive" and "personal" flames directed at me until my fingers fall off.

especially when it had been told repeatedly (on this thread and others) not to namecall people who disagreed with it as ut's

it didn't namecall anyone, it's (current) attacker had made that supposition to support the attacker's argument. it is thankful the attacker is bowing out, otherwise the attacker might be engaging in what the attacker set out to stop itself.

You also have to differentiate between DBD grad students and ABDs. Most DBD grad students in math/sci are sort of nerdy looking with thick glasses.

All you ABDs, pull out those parents photos from 30 years ago.

Before you say something like this you should have proof. ...

Also, to the others: I did not intend to mean the victim should have defended himself at that moment. I am talking about doing whatever to get the cops or even the college authorities to listen after the attack.

And yes, it is easy for me to comment because I have been there in different situations. I had a group of black punks trying to scare my white friend and when I faced them without blinking, they backed away. I was threatened with a gun by some person whose dealings I exposed, I was threatened by a pimp (typical stereotype, black guy with a caddilac and a fur coat and two hos next to him) because I made a joke about him after he disrespected my friends and I with some comment as we were walking by. I have walked in dangerous neighborhoods. People will look at your body language. If you show a little weakness, they will pounce on it. That is why I mentioned that the attacks on Latinos by black thugs was not a hate crime but they probably sensed an unwillingness of Latinos who live in those neighborhoods to go to the police. No, I am not suicidal. I do get scared out of my mind sometimes(I got lost in Memphis, and was in this maze of a ghetto with no seeming outlet and one big old Cadillac with no lights on started following me SLLOOOOWLY. After a couple of blocks, I was getting damn scared and was planning my exit out of there by driving on part of the pave3ment if necessary. Another time, I was looking for some place and it happened to be on the border of a shady neighborhood. I do know my limitations.

IMO, the right move for most people when surrounded by a bunch of menacing threatening persons w/ or w/o a weapon is to turn over the cash

You also have to differentiate between DBD grad students and ABDs.

I think, visually, that difference is narrowing down.

Pravin does bring up a point that I have noticed is somewhat true, there is a perception among some non-desis that desis are meek. (at least in the US).

Trust me that not a problem in Canada.

So now the discussion comes down to neighborhoods and socio-economics.

Isn't this the same sort of thing that parents fight when they don't want their kids bussed to certain schools because of the drug use, crime and neighborhood?

When that was brought up in another thread, "RACISM" was screamed.

But let's face it, without even bringing the topic of race up, there are neighborhoods that are more dangerous than others (obviously everyone here is agreeing on that), and those neighborhoods usually consist primarily of people from a certain race, likely because many of them cannot afford to move into safer and more affluent hoods. It's not the race that is condemned, it's the crime that takes place in the hoods the race lives in. It's unfortunate that the entire race may get a bad rap because of that. However, there is an elephant in the room that cannot be ignored.

How many people are just crying to be able to live in those hoods? And how many people, once they make it out, go back?

Elephant. Room. Peanuts.

Actually no one objects to a family not wanting to live in a bad ghetto neighborhood even if it's not PC to admit it. But to equate any black living in any neighborhood as a sign of a bad neighborhood is ridiculous.

Awesome! Come one bigot, come all bigots!

How about the gems from JGandhi where he politely claims that

Most DBD grad students in math/sci are sort of nerdy looking with thick glasses. Add the funny accent and naivete and they become conspicuous easy pickings for the thugs.

Most DBD grad students in math/sci are sort of nerdy looking with thick glasses.

The fact is, the average American 14 year old could easily physically defeat the average DBD engineering student. The meek attitude doesn't help either. That being said, I don't think there is realistically much that a particular so-endowed individual can really do about it. And with a gun (as in this unfortunate case) all bets are off. So while I agree that timidly handing out $5 and $10 daily doesn't help the situation, neither would aggressive action by people ill-equipped (mentally and physically) to offer it (unless it's a matter of priniciple for them and they are prepared for the possible consequences). What is needed is more policing and stronger anti-crime measures. Easier said than done.

How about the gems from JGandhi where he politely claims that

What he says is actually true. There is a trade-off...spend your entire childhood studying (and maybe playing some carrom and chess during your breaks), with no exercise, and you will end up physically weak. The typical ghaas-phoos Indian diet doesn't help matters, and then the genetic component plays a role too. That's OK though, depending on one's priorities...I think most of them are happy with how they are. Even Abhijit was very proud of the intellectual aspects of being Bengali. People are a product of their culture and their upbringing.

IMO, the right move for most people when surrounded by a bunch of menacing threatening persons w/ or w/o a weapon is to turn over the cash

I agree completely.

So while I agree that timidly handing out $5 and $10 daily doesn't help the situation, neither would aggressive action by people ill-equipped (mentally and physically) to offer it (unless it's a matter of priniciple for them and they are prepared for the possible consequences).

If you are surrounded by thugs, being well eqipped mentally or physically is not going to be of any help. The best and the wisest option is to give up the money and walk away with your life and body intact. There is a little Goetz wanting to jump out in all of us but its best to keep your head down and walk away in situations like these.

Amitabh something is true and then there is a time and place for everything. As in the past, someone related to the victim may be reading the site and it is hardly helpful to read demeaning description of someone's physical appearence. Also can you please qualify your anecdotes as such else back generalization with numbers.

The typical ghaas-phoos Indian diet doesn't help matters, and then the genetic component plays a role too. That's OK though, depending on one's priorities...I think most of them are happy with how they are. Even Abhijit was very proud of the intellectual aspects of being Bengali. People are a product of their culture and their upbringing.

I am not sure about that. I am a physically big and tall guy and was brought up on a diet of beef/chicken/lamb. When I was in grad school, I was accosted at a gas station (a mile away from my school) by 5 big menancing thugs. I emptied my pockets in 1/10th of a second.
This has nothing to do with vegetarian diets and lack of muscle mass.

Most DBD grad students in math/sci are sort of nerdy looking with thick glasses. Add the funny accent...

brown, JGandhi's description is not complete. He forgot to add that they smell of curry powder, wear double-thick winter coats, and shower once a week. Because the fact that he's a DBD grad student is especially relevant here, as we all know, ABD and other grad students in top schools are revered by society for their physical prowess.

There is a trade-off...spend your entire childhood studying (and maybe playing some carrom and chess during your breaks), with no exercise, and you will end up physically weak. The typical ghaas-phoos Indian diet doesn't help matters, and then the genetic component plays a role too.

Amitabh, it's a good thing you didn't add solving the Rubik's cube here, otherwise you'd have been resorting to the kinds of ridiculous stereotypes that belong in Revenge of the Nerds.

Because the fact that he's a DBD grad student is especially relevant here, as we all know, ABD and other grad students in top schools are revered by society for their physical prowess.

That was actually very funny.

Amitabh something is true and then there is a time and place for everything.

Apologies if I went too far. It's frustrating to think of teenagers demanding money and DBD students passively handing it out. If I was in their shoes I might do the same, I guess. I remember being in Brooklyn years back, about 10 black teenagers started following me...they started throwing pebbles at my legs. I just kept walking. Eventually they stopped. In any case, all in all, it's looking like DBD grad students go through more hardships in this country than is commonly realized. The only thing some of us are wondering about is how much their own attitude and demeanor contribute to the situation. Not that they can do much about it in any case.

It's frustrating to think of teenagers demanding money and DBD students passively handing it out

Why is it frustating? Its the wise thing to do.

I wa actually robbed by some black guys in undergrad. They grabbed my laptop and my roommate's laptops. Me and my roommate (he was American Born Chinese) chased the guys down the parking lot barefeet. After 2-3 minutes they threw the laptops on the ground so they could run faster. I bet the average student DBD wouldn't have ran after the guys and if he did run he wouldn't been able to catch them.

BTW - in my opinion its the student DBDs that are have the nerd look. I've met lots of Guju and Punjabi illegals working at some Guju/Punjabi business 80 hours a week for $300/week and they look much tougher.

href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004978.html#comment190872">said

The fact is, the average American 14 year old could easily physically defeat the average DBD engineering student. The meek attitude doesn't help either.

dude, have you seen my boyfriend? it's only the gandhian values that daddy taught him that keep him from beating every goon who dare cast an unchaste look in my direction.
in all seriousness, though, this sort of stereotyping is a red herring. it's very difficult even for someone who is very physically adept to defuse a situation where they are being threatened by a gun. or when the numbers in the room are against you. but please persist in your implicit glorification of the all-american male*.

* likely to be overweight and to lead a sedentary lifestyle; which has nothing to do with anyone's ability to brandish a gun and threat people.

Good grief. Since we're dealing in crude stereotypes. Maybe if Mr. Mahato had been allowed to live, he would have followed in the footsteps of that nerd Bill Gates and made billions, thus allowing him to shower some much needed charity (especially in the generous spirit department) on his allegedly muscular but certainly less gifted ABD bretheren and hire them as his bodyguards.

"i don't see this troll ever add anything constructive"

Yeah, you're right, good thing I layed off posting for a bit, otherwise, you know, the thread could've completely spinned off onto a tangent.

278 · JGandhi said

I bet the average student DBD wouldn't have ran after the guys and if he did run he wouldn't been able to catch them.

i bet you haven't met my brother. race him, play a game of tennis with him, wrestle him, and then let's see you do some NMR spectroscopy in the lab with him. seriously, what is the point of this anecdotal data? this does hit close to home for me, but regardless of the social and cultural context of those who die in unfortunate circumstances, one should be able to speak intelligently and sensitively about such incidents and their causes.
please show some respect to the DBD students who may be visiting this site right now, mourning one of their own, and being forced to suffer your inane self-aggrandizing. you might be a modern-day amalgamation of bhima and hanumana, but please do something completely contrary to your uber-masculine tendencies - go open up a compendium of etiquette.

JGandhi,

I think for most part you are making up this nonsense despite repeated requests by other commentars to be civil and if you are in New York or Philadelphia area, I can arrange for you to meet some DBD grad students who may help the myths you hold so dear.

I don't want to change the topic, but since we are talking about death of south asian. I wonder will there be a blog/post about a couple of South Asian murders in Canada in the last month.

A month ago 16 year old pakistani girl named Asqa Perver was killed by her father cause she would not wear a hijab to school. And in the last week here in Vancouver a 18month old punjabi girl was killed by father cause he wanted a son.

Keep wondering... but there won't be any blog/post on sepiamutiny about anything negative on muslims/islam. But I am surprised that sepia/ANNA hasn't yet blogged about 2nd murder, it invloves a "sikh" father killing his little girl, thats definetly something to blog about.

No 284 is not me, I think I will take Shodan's advice and rechristen myself Umber Desi:)

It's frustrating to think of teenagers demanding money and DBD students passively handing it out

Why is it frustating? Its the wise thing to do.

NOT WHEN IT HAPPENS MORE THAN ONCE. You have to do something about it. Complain to the cops. Or report to the university and hope someone at least has a record of past crimes to aid someone in the future in making a decision where to live. No one is saying to become a Jet Li and beat the crap out of those thugs. And if you are lucky enough to have some tough friends, set a trap and beat the shit out of those thugs the next time they try it. OK, I would advise one not to resort to that last suggestion unless they are willing to risk something severe. But you get the point. There is a big difference between acting wisely in a sudden bad situation and being a punching bag for a bunch of bad guys. Sometimes one of those bad guys could lose their head and kill you even if you hand over the money. And this may have been the case here.

285 · brown said

No 284 is not me, I think I will take Shodan's advice and rechristen myself Umber Desi:)

awesome handle!

portmateau,

Thank you, although the credit goes to Shodan.

283 · brown said

I think for most part you are making up this nonsense despite repeated requests by other commentars to be civil and if you are in New York or Philadelphia area, I can arrange for you to meet some DBD grad students who may help the myths you hold so dear.

I am simply offering explanations to why DBD students are so often the targets of crimes. Sorry if people find this offensive, I won't make anymore comments on DBD demeanors. However I am not making up anything. Furthermore, no I am not going to meet you to fight it out. I don't enjoy physical confrontations and I never said I did.

Most DBD grad students in math/sci are sort of nerdy looking with thick glasses. Add the funny accent and naivete and they become conspicuous easy pickings for the thugs.

One word to all the DBD students out there. Just one word: Plastics.

Thanks a lot, guys, for regaling us with your stories of personal bravery. You have no idea how many DBD lives you saved today.

I think for most part you are making up this nonsense despite repeated requests by other commentars to be civil and if you are in New York or Philadelphia area, I can arrange for you to meet some DBD grad students who may help the myths you hold so dear.

Keep wondering... but there won't be any blog/post on sepiamutiny about anything negative on muslims/islam. But I am surprised that sepia/ANNA hasn't yet blogged about 2nd murder, it invloves a "sikh" father killing his little girl, thats definetly something to blog about.

I don't enjoy physical confrontations and I never said I did.

Then stop talking.

Umber Desi - gotta love that Shodan-san.

JGandhi,

I was not suggesting a fight off, I was suggesting arranging a race :) or a dance off with some of my DBD buddies:)

Pravin does bring up a point that I have noticed is somewhat true, there is a perception among some non-desis that desis are meek. (at least in the US). I can't count the number of times, I've been asked "are you really indian, you sure don't act like one", usually said in response when I would pop off at someone (non desi) or get in the face of someone who had "disrespected" me. (Thankfully, I grew out of that machismo phase - I think). The funny thing is the punjabis and other desis I lived near never seemed meek to me, so I didn't understand where this perception came from. I really don't know if that perception, desis are meek, is based in any truth but the fact that it exists, may allow for bullies and thugs to view desis as better targets. In that respect, Pravin is correct, the more desis can find ways to assert themselves and protect their life and individual rights, the harder it will be for others to take advantage of other desis. I'm not sure, however, if it would have done anything to change this tragic event.

Funny - I think the perception of all desis (and Asians) as a whole (whether DBD or ABD) is as nerds, regardless of the fact that there are more than you'd think that grow up in tough neighborhoods. The very thought of a desi (or azn) from the hood is inherently hilarious to many, but especially to many ABDs (and I guess ABCs as well), as evidenced by the popularity of the MC Ludakrishna & Dumbass Co. videos. The fact there are moron desi teenage boys running around in the BMWs their parents bought for them and calling each other ni**a doesn't help either (too many stories about this). Jangali - where did you first live when you moved here?

I don't think it's an issue of 'nerdiness' or not, but one of 'street smarts.' I guess in addition to there needing to be more info available about housing options for grad students, there also needs to be more people saying it's ok go to the cops if you're being continually harassed. (Though anecdotally- the police have generally not been helpful in my experience, in areas that aren't Beverly Hills they don't do jack).

Pravin - those are different browns.

(all browns... look same to me!)

HMF: where would one find a Krav Maga school outside of Israel except maybe in NYC? Admittedly it's the only martial art I know of that trains people how to kill a group of armed attackers (preferably Arabs*), but to get to that level, one needs to spend a few years in Israel.

It doesn't matter how big or tough you look or think you look, you're not going to scare a group of thugs with guns. The biggest football player will just as easily hand over cash as a skinny engineering student. Also, what's with the belief on this site that the police don't pursue attackers of minorities? The white guys who attacked the Sikhs in Queens a few years back all got prison sentences if I'm not mistaken (I'm too lazy to pull up the article). Looks like the police didn't rush to protect their white brethren from the smelly immigrants :gasp:

*Before people start flaming me as a callous racist and such, this is somewhat of an inside joke among Israelis regarding Krav Maga training in the IDF which especially focuses on killing heavily armed Hezbollahis or Hamasis.

281 · HMF said

"i don't see this troll ever add anything constructive"
Yeah, you're right, good thing I layed off posting for a bit, otherwise, you know, the thread could've completely spinned off onto a tangent.

Or, to paraphrase, "Yay, I finally found people on this thread who have managed to rival my perennial idiocy and threadjacking on all posts."

I guess nothing is so serious that it cannot be used to advance whatever crackpot "theories" you want to posit: that DBD students are emaciated wimps who never see the sun (what sort of comment is this, and what are "DBD demeanors"?), or that all whites are apologists, or that any crime in the south is most likely a hate crime, and so on.

sakshi and WGiiA, well said!

Umberdesi, my mistake, regarding the confusion on the two browns.

296 · Johnny Valker said

HMF: where would one find a Krav Maga school outside of Israel except maybe in NYC?

I have seen them in way-out suburban Houston, among many other places. Your assumptions don't seem to last long around these parts.

*Before people start flaming me as a callous racist and such

Been there, done that.

Thank you Nala, Pravin, I mentioned in 285 that we are not the same person, it should be easier going forward as I am rechristened:)

It doesn't matter how big or tough you look or think you look, you're not going to scare a group of thugs with guns

In the words of Ash : "Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun."

113 · louiecypher said

I don't think universities owe their surrounding communities anything.

Everybody owes their surrounding community something. No man is an island. Anybody who says they "made it on their own" is either narcissistic to the point of solipsism or a liar or both.

Yay, I finally found people on this thread who have managed to rival my perennial idiocy and threadjacking on all posts

Or to paraphrase:

"I'm funny dammit, nothing can stop my dead-ication to snide jabs."

BTW, Krav maga locations : http://www.kravmaga.com/schoollocations.asp

Jangali - where did you first live when you moved here?

Nala,

NYC. Spent a few months in the Bronx by Castle Hill, two years in Elmhurst/Corona and a lot of time in Flushing not far from Lattimer House and the old RKO Keith and then elsewhere....(not necessarily in that order) I also spent much of my formative years riding the NYC transit line to one of those far-flung magnet/specialized schools. (about 3 hours round trip) (does my ghetto pass, pass ;) )

All in the early to mid 80's.

I didn't realize what I had started. My whole point was that DBDs and ABDs could and should take reasonable precautions so that they aren't an attractive target. Make it difficult for the predator/bully/thug. At the end of the day, options do become limited when faced with numbers or a weapon, turn over the cash and call the cops. As to alleged desi or asian meekness, whether true or not, that perception should spur desi individuals and desi groups to be extra vigilant in defending their legal rights, property, life and pursuit of an American dream so that no one thinks that it will be easy to take advantage of them. Whether that means calling the cops, starting suits, creating neighborhood watches, writing the Durham mayor, learning self defense or seeking Indian consulate intervention to assist in forcing larger organizations to act responsibly.

What I'd really like to see is a bunch of gun toting skinny-ass engineers (DBD or ABD) start robbing those who might prey on them. :)

The last line is just a joke. Seriously, don't get any ideas.

Thanks for that link HMF

Harbeer, I'm not from the Houston area so I wouldn't know, although I do admire your efforts to read my posts so carefully and provide links to my previous ones. Where can I learn to be such a dedicated cyber warrior like yourself?

"I'm funny dammit, nothing can stop my dead-ication to snide jabs."

Since you are paraphrasing my paraphrase of your comment, I guess you are just describing yourself, which would be appropriate given your using this thread to air your usual racial/regional hatred. And great taste in the pun you used, by the way.

But in case this was another of your misfires and you intended to describe me, there is nothing snide about my jabs. I thought I have been pretty direct in calling you a bigot and an idiot, and I apologize if I haven't been clear about it.

It seems that the intern is busy with his/her day job, which has led to the thread going in the directions it has. Anyways, thank you to HMF, JGandhi, Amitabh, and all those people who have contributed to the train wreck of this thread with their diverse contemptuous/patronizing stereotypes, and I am sorry for my contributions by trying to engage them on these issues on this thread.

On a personal level, all I can hope Abhijit's loved ones are able to recover from such a shattering loss.

thought I have been pretty direct in calling you a bigot and an idiot, and I apologize if I haven't been clear about it.

Yes you have, what you haven't been clear about is why. I apologize for repeatedly exposing your lack of will power in refraining from engaging in sarcastic jabs, while simultaenously sh*tting yourself as you attempt to inject some seriousness to your commentary.

I hadn't realized websters was amended:

bigot - n. whoever rahul deems as one.

I am sorry for my contributions by trying to engage them on these issues on this thread

You're sorry for being yourself? Guess I would be too.

And great taste in the pun you used, by the way.

You're the one continuing on that brazen path, don't blame me for pointing it out.

On a personal level, all I can hope Abhijit's loved ones are able to recover from such a shattering loss.

And I hope they feel as much pain as humanely possible, and maybe double it by the nights end.. That's what a bigot and idiot is supposed to say, right?

NYC. Spent a few months in the Bronx by Castle Hill, two years in Elmhurst/Corona and a lot of time in Flushing not far from Lattimer House and the old RKO Keith and then elsewhere....(not necessarily in that order) I also spent much of my formative years riding the NYC transit line to one of those far-flung magnet/specialized schools. (about 3 hours round trip) (does my ghetto pass, pass ;) )

All in the early to mid 80's.

I also lived in the Elmhurst/Corona area for a few years... But that was in the 90s, the 80s must have been a lot tougher. And three hours?? You're such a nerd, even for an ABD martial Punjabi. :P

306 · Johnny Valker said

Where can I learn to be such a dedicated cyber warrior like yourself?

You can start by bowing to your master. Pwned!

307 · Rahul said

Anyways, thank you to HMF, JGandhi, Amitabh, and all those people who have contributed to the train wreck of this thread with their diverse contemptuous/patronizing stereotypes, and I am sorry for my contributions by trying to engage them on these issues on this thread.

I can't wait for a Mutineer to put up a new post that will start another tangential flame-war.

And Get Well Soon to the SM Intern...

Anyways, thank you to HMF, JGandhi, Amitabh, and all those people who have contributed to the train wreck of this thread with their diverse contemptuous/patronizing stereotypes, and I am sorry for my contributions by trying to engage them on these issues on this thread.

Some opinions are best left unspoken, or saved for a better time. I apologize for my contribution to this. Which is not say that you don't have your obnoxious moments, Rahul.

Apologies if I went too far. It's frustrating to think of teenagers demanding money and DBD students passively handing it out. If I was in their shoes I might do the same, I guess. I remember being in Brooklyn years back, about 10 black teenagers started following me...they started throwing pebbles at my legs. I just kept walking. Eventually they stopped. In any case, all in all, it's looking like DBD grad students go through more hardships in this country than is commonly realized. The only thing some of us are wondering about is how much their own attitude and demeanor contribute to the situation. Not that they can do much about it in any case.

Amitabh, I get your point but at the same time it's almost like saying those two NRI women on New Year's Eve attracted the mob towards them with their own attitude and demeanor. In fact, that argument has already been made regarding that case, and it continues to be made about other women. So then what stand should we take when it's a man being targeted?

Yes, bring out the word "bigot" from the liberal bag of tricks, dont leave out the other word "racist", or is that played out? When everything fails the liberal brings out the old "who you going to believe me or your lying eyes?".

Anyways, thank you to HMF, JGandhi, Amitabh, and all those people who have contributed to the train wreck of this thread with their diverse contemptuous/patronizing stereotypes, and I am sorry for my contributions by trying to engage them on these issues on this thread.

Some opinions are best left unspoken, or saved for a better time.

Amitabh, I respect you, because you are honest about and reasonably consistent in your beliefs, even though I don't usually agree with you. Its not a question of whether the opinions are unacceptable / not PC (actually how lame DBDs are is a fairly common topic on SM), but this was certainly not the best time.

Keep posting.

Which is not say that you don't have your obnoxious moments, Rahul.

I'm sure I do, and I also know that I have been sharper-edged of late, but do call me out on it if it is unjustified. Sometimes, things spill over between commenters when they shouldn't.

(Also, I disagree not just with the timing, but also the correctness of your DBD stereotype, much as it is conveniently positively reinforced by observation bias, but I am sure there will be other threads we can discuss that.)

(Also, I disagree not just with the timing, but also the correctness of your DBD stereotype, much as it is conveniently positively reinforced by observation bias, but I am sure there will be other threads we can discuss that.)

Yeah, I didn't mean to say that your opinion is correct, just that you are entitled to your opinions.

Yeah, I didn't mean to say that your opinion is correct, just that you are entitled to your opinions.

By you I meant Amitabh. Way too many posts to finish one thought. Anyway, I am done here.

By the way, I will just speak for myself because I have made some statements that might be lumped with similar statements but not quite the same. I feel really bad for the victim and I do not think he deserved it in any aspect. I span both the ABD and DBD communities having been born here but lived in India too. Hell, I had glasses not too different from Abhijit's when I lived in India(long time ago when thin lenses were not common yet). But I do know that a guy with even a gun will more likely try to pick on someone with meek body language over someone who looks like he will do something about it either during or after the act. I bring up these points not to pile on the misery of the victim's family but to highlight some hard realities that future potential victims need to be aware of. Perception can lead to reality. If thugs perceive that we are weak, it doesn't matter if the individual person targeted is really not that weak. They will go after him or her. This is why I get a little impatient when I see stories like this and the aftermath of the Satendar Singh's case. I wish some of the more experienced Indian students help out the newer Indian students in such matters.

Protection money is not uncommon in the desh and many DBD students dont get too worked up over it. Does anyone know if DBD students can legally buy guns outside of Walmart. As someone said 'god did not make all men equal, mr colt did'. If one has to die why not die fighting. Hey, that is the slum dweller in me talking. If the word on the street is 'Indians shoot first and ask questions later', it might stop the small time crims from shaking desis down.

But I am surprised that sepia/ANNA hasn't yet blogged about 2nd murder

Stop attacking ANNA, there are more then one blogger on this website, yet they all attack ANNA for some reason.

Does anyone know if DBD students can legally buy guns outside of Walmart.

Only GC holders & citizens can legally buy guns in the US. The irony will be that the DBD students will be arrested by the police for illegally buying guns to protect themselves from the people the police should have been protecting them from in the first place. And most ABDs who are politically active tend to be anti-gun ownership.

And most ABDs who are politically active tend to be anti-gun ownership.

The irony will be that the DBD students will be arrested by the police for illegally buying guns

You are wrong. There are a lot of conservative Indian Americans. I am on the liberal side and even I am not against gun ownership. Do not confuse wanting strict background checks with anti gun ownership. I do not see how a background check will prevent a DBD from getting a gun.

That being said, I think it would be cool for B-school students to have some partnership with community development banks to help & learn from minority small business owners.

I know there is a larger number of SM posters who have 'anti-elitist,' anti-academic sentiments.

Amitabh, I second sakshi (#315) -- please keep posting.

This thread is actually really interesting and thought-provoking if you just ignore all the HMF posts & responses. I'm glad that it's still open.

The thread is actually really interesting and enjoyable

While I love community & econ. development clinics, I do think it helps for specific kinds of universities to consider throwing some of their CDC-funds towards the communities they occupy.

Camille - CDC? Center for Disease Control??

Sorry, nala, I was being wonky. CDC = Community Development Corporation.

320 · melbourne desi said

If the word on the street is 'Indians shoot first and ask questions later', it might stop the small time crims from shaking desis down.

clearly, as this story shows, easily available guns for all is the answer.

I know it's a lot to hope for-- too much, perhaps--that you might attempt to demonstrate civility and perhaps step up from time to time to moderate your selves, if you see-- as you did-- that we are unavailable, but after four years of Sepia Mutiny, on a thread about a murdered student, I stupidly assumed that such a desire for successful, unsupervised discussion could be an expectation rather than an experiment in wistfulness.

You are wrong. There are a lot of conservative Indian Americans. I am on the liberal side and even I am not against gun ownership. Do not confuse wanting strict background checks with anti gun ownership. I do not see how a background check will prevent a DBD from getting a gun.

I agree there are conservative/pro gun ownership desis. The NRA's Director of Public Affairs is of Sri Lankan origin I believe. However it has been my experience based on the ABDs that I had queried on the subject of gun ownership that most are on the side of outright bans, especially handguns. Anyway I doubt that DBDs arming themselves is going to help in these situations. One would need to carry the gun at all times and not all states permit concealed weapons to be legally carried.

e. However it has been my experience based on the ABDs that I had queried on the subject of gun ownership that most are on the side of outright bans, especially handguns.

Some DBDs, on the other hand, are known for their love of guns.

Some DBDs, on the other hand, are known for their love of guns.

Try this (non youtube) page for a change.

Some DBDs, on the other hand, are known for their love of guns.

Some ABD's too, like the Gov.

330 · Vikram said

However it has been my experience based on the ABDs that I had queried on the subject of gun ownership that most are on the side of outright bans, especially handguns.

I disagree. I for one favor gun ownership and would support laws that allowed the right to carry arms. The best defense is to let the criminals know you are prepared. If everyone had gun crimes would plummet.

I think these DBD students should be packing. If word got out that desi=armed than crimes against desis would plummet.

Try this (non youtube) page for a change.

Thanks, didn't know those existed. Even ignoring the silly claims that guns can help defend against terrorist attacks, and even could have protected the Jews from Hitler, I wonder how the self-defense argument applies to the fact that a disproportionate number of gun related deaths in the US are in gang violence, where all participants are armed.

334 · JGandhi I for one favor gun ownership and would support laws that allowed the right to carry arms.

No mere laws needed, we've got the Constitution! ;-)

Seriously, though, I don't think that arming ourselves is the best solution--most of this goes to university/local gov't needs to protect vulnerable populations. Street-level violence is way down in NYC, w/out everyone packing heat.

The best defense is to let the criminals know you are prepared. If everyone had gun crimes would plummet.

This isn't very logical... not that guns kill people, but if everyone had guns, the rate of violent death would increase as every physical altercation would end with a bullet in someone's head.

Wow, this Krav Maga stuff seems pretty "hardcore":

Krav Maga generally assumes a no quarter situation; the attacks and defenses are intended for potentially lethal threat situations, and aim to neutralize these and escape via maximum pain or damage to opponents, as rapidly and safely as possible. Crippling attacks to vulnerable body parts, including groin and eye strikes, headbutts, and other efficient and potentially brutal attacks, improvised use of any objects available, and maximizing personal safety in a fight, are emphasized. However, it must be stressed that instructors can and do demonstrate how to moderate the techniques to fit the circumstances. While no limits are placed on techniques to be used in life-threatening situations, the legal need to inflict the appropriate minimal damage in other circumstances is recognised and stressed.

I'm glad that there are people who know how to do this stuff, but asking everyone to master it is way too Hobbesian for me--I prefer a specialization of labor, where I can securely pursue my brain-over-brawn focussed activities, leaving the hard-core stuff to the cops.

May Abhijit's family find strength to overcome this tragedy.

Thanks to brown/Umber Desi, WGIIA, amaun, Sakshi and others for helping to inject sanity to this discussion. I understand where Amitabh and JGandhi are coming from (personal experiences, however minor, are especially painful), but to almost suggest that Abhijit was "meek" (not gentle?) reflects misplaced priorities and personal axe-grinding. Amitabh's remark about 'ghaas-phoos diet' was particularly disappointing, this from someone who is as proud of his Indian heritage/culture as Amitabh seems and considering the many virtues of a predominantly green diet.

Melbourne Desi, (I also live in Melbourne, btw) I don't think the solution is to have everyone turn into cowboys, much as I sometimes feel the way you do on this one.

I also lived in the Elmhurst/Corona area for a few years... But that was in the 90s, the 80s must have been a lot tougher. And three hours?? You're such a nerd, even for an ABD martial Punjabi. :P

Nala,

The 80's were what they were, I didn't really understand the difference in where I stayed and others lived until I met people from different soci-economic backgrounds at the magnet school. In some ways the whole era should be forgotten, it was an ugly time in America, big hair, Gordon Gekko and trickle down economics.

I fully embrace my nerdy martial self. That's part of the reason why I visit this site, to only enhance my own nerdiness and be around my brothers and sisters in nerd-dom. However, little did I know, there are some fairly sophisticated and cool characters (I would have said "cool cats" but that would only have confirmed my nerdiness) on SM. SM's also a lot more dangerous than a naked drunken walk through South Jamaica on Halloween night with all the verbal shanking going on. As for the 3 hours traveling, my father still trumps me with the old chestnut: "Don't tell me how long it takes to get to school, I had to walk through the fields 10 miles each day to go to school and then after-school I had to tend the field and after that was done, I studied by the light of the dying candle". So I'll just keep up the tradition with my own little ones one day: "You are so spoiled, I had to travel 3 hours a day through the crack wars on NYC subway line and you can't study, you're not a child of my blood". Motivation. Based on some of the stories the grad students have posted it sounds like they can trump all stories on the difficulties of having to attend school.

I know this has been explained before, but does being born abroad and then being raised in the US for a good part of my life make me ABD? Maybe I'm a 1.5?

As for this thread, I hope the grad students do review the totality of the thread. There is a display of support for Abhijit and his family, there are some helpful links and a good discussion of some issues that may be common to grad students and possible solutions that they are free to choose. BTW, The gun idea would not be high on my list for many of the reasons stated. Despite the possible legal ramifications for DBDs, a gun is just another tool, if you don't know how to use it properly, one is more likely to hurt oneself than harm your intended attacker.

I do, however, believe that if a person who could legally own a weapon wanted to purchase one in self-defense and were willing to take the time to learn proper gun safety and storage and take the time to learn how to use it (practice at the shooting range), that's a legitimate means to defend oneself. That maybe the martial side of my nerd self taking over.

Nanda,

I'm positive that Amitabh and most of the posters weren't suggesting Abhijit was meek or did anything that contributed to his tragedy. Rather, they were commenting on whether a perception of desi/asian meekness creates a situation where desis in general may be deemed to be easier targets, especially in the context of comments regarding the trouble some grads have with repeated robberies. To be fair, they were also responding to my own query regarding this perception, a query that may not have been appropriate where the subject matter is so sensitive and where it was tangential to the main thread.

340 · Jangali Jaanwar

I do, however, believe that if a person who could legally own a weapon wanted to purchase one in self-defense and were willing to take the time to learn proper gun safety and storage and take the time to learn how to use it (practice at the shooting range), that's a legitimate means to defend oneself.

Fair enough, if you're talking about having a gun in your home. . . but in terms of walking down the street with one, and whipping it out (not that you're talking about that, Jangali Jaanwar, I just want to clarify, on the assumtion that you're not)--you're going to run a huge risk of getting into trouble yourself--AFAIK the practical legal sanctions for self-defense are far stronger in home-protection situations than in "street altercations"--if you're contemplating the latter and want to pack heat for it, please take whatever hits to your standard of living on other dimensions and move to a safer area.

341 · Jangali Jaanwar

I'm positive that Amitabh and most of the posters weren't suggesting Abhijit was meek or did anything that contributed to his tragedy. Rather, they were commenting on whether a perception of desi/asian meekness creates a situation where desis in general may be deemed to be easier targets, especially in the context of comments regarding the trouble some grads have with repeated robberies.

Amen to that!
In terms of the anti-DBD nonsense that went on this afternoon, I'm an ABD and as much as I love America, I will confess to thinking/feeling like a bit "more" of a target for crime than your average American. I have been never been a crime victim, and I don't feel that I live any kind of strangely circumscribed/paranoid existence or anything--far from it, in fact--but it's certainly legitimate for people to index this concern--whether it's statistically valid or not I'm not sure, but psychologically it's there in the back of my mind, not all the time or anything, but in some situations. . . .

Strait out my inbox:

The Hindu Society of North Carolina will be holding a funeral service this Sunday at 10:30 a.m. for the graduate student at Duke who's life was tragically taken away.

SM's also a lot more dangerous than a naked drunken walk through South Jamaica on Halloween night with all the verbal shanking going on.

Funniest sentence evah! JJ, I will make sure the shiv in your back is never mine.

Fair enough, if you're talking about having a gun in your home. . . but in terms of walking down the street with one, and whipping it out (not that you're talking about that, Jangali Jaanwar, I just want to clarify, on the assumption that you're not)--you're going to run a huge risk of getting into trouble yourself--AFAIK the practical legal sanctions for self-defense are far stronger in home-protection situations than in "street altercations"--if you're contemplating the latter and want to pack heat for it, please take whatever hits to your standard of living on other dimensions and move to a safer area.

Rob,

Your spot on. I completely agree.

I will make sure the shiv in your back is never mine.

Rahul,

Thank you, it is much appreciated. It means one less person to worry about in the showers.

276 · Amitabh said

Apologies if I went too far. It's frustrating to think of teenagers demanding money and DBD students passively handing it out. If I was in their shoes I might do the same, I guess.

When I came here (U.S.) for my graduate studies, I was told to always carry a $10 or $20 bill in my pocket. The reason that was given to me was - "you don't want to piss off a mugger, you never know how they will react when they find that you have no cash". And this was not my desi friends giving me advice..these were my american born friends classmates.

With this kind of 'orientation', what else do you exepct a first yr dbd student to do ?

And this was not my desi friends giving me advice..these were my american born friends classmates.

It should read: "friends/classmates"

Even ignoring the silly claims that guns can help defend against terrorist attacks, and even could have protected the Jews from Hitler,

Yes, too bad you weren't around to tell those "silly" Jews in Warsaw in '43 to lay down their weapons since their meagre arsenal would only delay their inevitable fate at the hands of the far superior German forces. Better to line up meekly for their dose of Zyklon-B. Sorry I don't have a youtube link.

I am glad this discussion took place. I mean that. The DBDs I hung out with did the best we could for a semester. Remember, this was the late 80s. No Indian student assoc at this place, International student org existed but wasn't staffed to handle the issues we had, and no RA/TA money. We did provide feedback to the Intl Student Org the reason for transferring out.
Knowing what I know now about law enforcement we would have done things differently.

183 · Roger said For the Indian government to issue a 'warning' is ridiculous

183 · Roger said For the Indian government to issue a 'warning' is ridiculous

In future when the difference between living in US and India becomes less and less, current demands of higher standards from the world in terms of travel warnings for US citizens, health check-up reports etc for visitors to US, will be replicated by India in the areas of safety of living, human rights ( religious freedom, racism ), quality of life in US etc. This will be an inevitable effect of equalization of standard of living. Very long you may very well see "Amnesty International of India" poking into US. You can see it very well happening wrt to global warming where the US has poor record.

Yes, too bad you weren't around to tell those "silly" Jews in Warsaw in '43 to lay down their weapons since their meagre arsenal would only delay their inevitable fate at the hands of the far superior German forces. Better to line up meekly for their dose of Zyklon-B. Sorry I don't have a youtube link.

Reread my comment, and see if you can refute that, not your paraphrase of it which calls Jews silly, exhorts them to be gassed, and ignores my question about gang violence.

I do accept your apology, though, but I am not going to get into a further discussion with you, since you seem to be more interested in personal insults than actually making your case.

Reread my comment, and see if you can refute that, not your paraphrase of it which calls Jews silly, exhorts them to be gassed, and ignores my question about gang violence.

You questioned whether guns could have protected Jews from Hitler, calling it a "silly claim". The Jews in Warsaw were from that point of view indulging in a "silly" exercise then weren't they ? I didn't make any exhortation, merely pointed out what would have quickly happened if they had been convinced their rebellion was silly, since they were resorting to a poorly armed, doomed fight against a heavily armed enemy. Apparently the sacrcasm in my statement was missed.

Ok... using the logic of criminal gangs use of guns(who are anyway banned by law from gun ownership) as a reason ban legal access to guns for defensive purposes is like banning cars because illegal high speed street racers kill themselves and bystanders with their extreme actions. Do you think the 100 million or so car owners who mostly use their vehicles for commuting/business should have all their driving privileges/cars taken away because of what those street drifters do ?

What was the personal insult in my earlier response ?

SM's also a lot more dangerous than a naked drunken walk through South Jamaica on Halloween night with all the verbal shanking going on.

Funniest sentence evah! JJ, I will make sure the shiv in your back is never mine.

I have to agree - great metaphor, JJ. :) And oops on the ABD thing. Though I'm a 1.5 too and I guess that if you've been raised for the most part on the U.S. sometimes you pretty much are an ABD.

Are Reality Check's/Prema's comments going to be deleted?

Are Reality Check's/Prema's comments going to be deleted?

Yes, but you should know that your commenting on the thread helped bring it to our attention. If stuff like that stays up, often it's because we don't know about it.

I just wanted to chime in here and say that this was not a hate crime, but a random stupid act. Stephen Oates lived right next door to me and is not a hood rat or ghetto trash or anything like that at all. As a matter of fact, he lives in probably one of the nicest houses on the block-- he's just a stupid kid that got going into stuff that got way out of his control. He and William Smith and William's younger brother broke into my house in the spring and stole a PS2, an Xbox and several other things and thanks to the city of Durham, only spent 2 months behind bars even though they were both on parole and had a warrant against them for a break-in at Stephen's mom's house after she kicked him out. I can't express how sorry I am that this brilliant mind is no longer here because of a bad seed from my neighborhood.

Two tragic stories intersect: UNC student body president Eve Carson's co-murderer also charged as part of Abhijit Mahato's murder.

Duke honors Mahato with a fellowship.

This makes me so happy. I'm a tarheel alum and my sis is there now and she was very effected by Eve carson's death. She knew her somewhat as they were both bio majors and my sis thought she was such a lovely girl. But we both couldn't help but think that the news of the indian student's death at Duke got nada attention or the Indian grad students at La state univ.

We did go thru in our minds, "Well Eve was student body president...a more prominent position than a typical student, so perhaps that's why she got more coverage". But I can't help but think there was some bias, that may have also effected the police's efforts in capturing the killer. Perhaps if they had put more effort and if more attention had been given the Indian Duke student, than Eve's untimely death could have been avoided too.