Rowan Williams, who suggested some aspects of Islamic Sharia law could be allowed in Britain

the Sun's four-inch flare, "What a burka," was instantly recognizable to Londoners as an unflattering Cockney-slang likening of Archbishop Williams to female genitalia.

Any how, Mr Saunders tells us that Archbishop Williams, acting as the direct spokesman of she who is appointed by God and is the ruler of England in her mortal shell, was in truth arguing for a greater civic authority for churches. the sharia diversion seems to have put paid to that movement.

Keep in mind that it's misleading to discuss the "risk" of first-cousin marriage without attention to the baseline of how often it's gone on in the family in the past--i.e., as a "one-off" event it's not especially dangerous, but if practiced over generations it gets increasingly risky.

I can only imagine what the reasons for bringing this topic up right now are, but it certainly shouldn't, in the abstract, be any kind of taboo topic. Especially not if you're in a welfare state like the UK, where the (economic) costs of birth defects are borne by the society rather than just the birth-family.

as a first year medical student, I was surprised by all the genetic studies where Pakistanis through inbreeding, were the reason for genetic breakthroughs as they allowed investigators to see what pathways were adulterated in these offspring causing medical defects. One was the hormonal regulation of hunger where these two siblings, had voracious appetites caused by a genetic disorder via inbreeding. What caused the hunger, was identified because of these brother/sisters.

I agree with you "future". Finally, Pakistanis have a chance to make a positive difference in the world, lets not dash their hopes.

/sarcasam

Anyone seen Razib? :) Someone page him. He HAS to chime in on this…

the problem is worst than just first-cousin marriages. the problem is pedigree collapse. clans with breed with each other over generations start to get really inbred to a far greater extent than a plain "first-cousin marriage" would imply.

another thing, the risk in any given first-cousin marriage for a deleterious recessive is low (ignore the fact that pakistanis might have really inbred lineages going back generations). but, most deleterious recessives (or an enormous number) may be due to first cousin marriages. that means that though on the individual level it might not rise to the threshold of concern, when it comes to publish health cousin-marriages are going to be a major cost you can easily calculate because of the statistics.

http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2005/08/cousin-be-perty-part-n.php:
Condition - % of affected children whose parents were first cousins
Total color blindness - 15
Albinism - 21
Xeroderma Pigmentosum - 23
Ichthyosis Congenita - 35
Tay Sachs - 40

(for the USA)

so, a common assertion is that the risk of birth defects is 2-3% assuming no relation. and 4-6% assuming first cousins. now, if your first cousin is HHHHOOOOTTTTTTT perhaps you're willing to take the extra risk. but if 1/2 of the marriages are between first cousins, well, you can do the math in terms of how much more medical expenditure will ensue.....

7 · razib now, if your first cousin is HHHHOOOOTTTTTTT perhaps you're willing to take the extra risk. but if 1/2 of the marriages are between first cousins, well, you can do the math in terms of how much more medical expenditure will ensue.....

Who cares--gov't will pay--yes, we can!
;-)

btw, the common number i see is that first cousin offspring are 5 points dumber in IQ than they would be otherwise. so is this a thread where it's cool to point out that these practices are turning pakistani muslims into inbred tards? i mean, they really are. additionally, the problem isn't limited to pakistanis, cousin marriage rates are really high across the middle east in part because of new found wealth (oil) and the nature of islamic laws regarding inheritance.

the siblings in question who had uncontrollable hunger came from a lineage of people who had married within family, it wasnt like razib points out a one-time cousin marriage type of thing. This inner marrying I think has something definitely to do with many people in villages looking for spouses outside of the village when arranging marriages and sometimes marring within a very small village itself is looked at as incestuous even when there is no identifiable blood relation between the two people.

since i doubt comments can handle the requisite HTML, in words inbreeding coefficient is proportional in large part to the number of recent common ancestors. in the united states first cousin marriages are between people who have 2 recent common ancestors. in some societies that's no true, "first cousins" are actually more closely related than that because they have recent common ancestors all across their family tree.

Who cares--gov't will pay--yes, we can!

european gov. might demand selective abortions. that can mitigate some of the cost.

my understanding is that part of the rash of cousin marriages among pakistani britons is that it is a way to get family members to the UK through regular immigration channels. so it isn't just "islam tells me i should do this," there's a strong personal incentive to bump-uglies with your cousin cuz then they can come to the land of fish & chips.

map of near-relative-f*king by region: http://consang.net/index.php/Global_prevalence

9 · razib cousin marriage rates are really high across the middle east in part because of new found wealth (oil) and the nature of islamic laws regarding inheritance.

Wait, how does inheritance law promote cousin-marriage? I thought Islamic inheritance law is pro-male (compared to, say, French inheritance law)--so, wouldn't you have an increased desire to marry daughters up (b/c they get less $$)? And wouldn't that be feasible with polygamy (again, compared to France)?

also, the problem isn't only in deleterious recessives. those major diseases are public health concerns and what not, but inbred people are just susceptible to disease in general. that means probably more lifetime infections and so forth. it isn't just the big rare diseases; but endemic pathogens probably hit the immune systems of the inbred more harshly (no offense to the inbred SM readers ;-).

Wait, how does inheritance law promote cousin-marriage? I thought Islamic inheritance law is pro-male

well, i guess i mispoke, cuz i might not be islamic law per se. but i do know from an israeli arab friend of mine that cousin marriages are seen as a good way to pool money across families where otherwise there's too much distrust. so i guess it's more of the lack of transparency of capital?

also, it's pro-male, but women are supposed to get 1/3 i think (depends on details of which sharia, etc.). ethnographic studies i've read suggests that it doesn't work that way a lot of the time.

Just came across this.
http://in.rediff.com/getahead/2008/feb/11cousin.htm
Interesting!

17 · razib

i[t] might not be islamic law per se. but i do know from an israeli arab friend of mine that cousin marriages are seen as a good way to pool money across families where otherwise there's too much distrust. so i guess it's more of the lack of transparency of capital?

Yeah, good point--family ties in general are more important the less well you have the legal system working between relative strangers!

chitta, those were optimal for 3rd and 4th cousins. 1st and 2nd cousins had fewer kids than expectation. i blogged a possible reason.

btw, from the article:

MPAC spokesman Asghar Bukhari said Mr Woolas' comments "verged on Islamophobia".

and later....

Research for BBC2's Newsnight in November 2005 showed British Pakistanis accounted for 3.4% of all births but have 30% of all British children with "recessive disorders".

god, it's so easy to hate muslims ;-)

one reason that many muslims i've talked to give for cousin marriage is that

1) you've seen your cousin when you were younger, so you know if she's fugly or not if the whole purdah thing is happening

2) you don't get to socialize with non-relative females. so you hit it where you can....

btw, re: fake marriages. full disclosure, my mom tried to convince me into one of those so that one of my cousins could immigrate to the USA. my parents are generally pretty ethical, but if they thought about it has to be a really common rationale. and it isn't just brownz, kurds in denmark do the same. it's a way of bringing relatives over and maintaining old country values by pairing western born with those who might not even know the local language.

22 · razib one reason that many muslims i've talked to give for cousin marriage is that

Yeah, but is it a Muslim thing, or a "from the pind" thing (like West Virginia in the US!)??
My experience is limited, but in my experience you wouldn't find first-cousin marriage in any significant frequency in the Oxbridge Pakistanis, or the wealthy Pakistanis in NYC or LA. . . .

Yeah, but is it a Muslim thing, or a "from the pind" thing (like West Virginia in the US!)??
My experience is limited, but in my experience you wouldn't find first-cousin marriage in any significant frequency in the Oxbridge Pakistanis, or the wealthy Pakistanis in NYC or LA. . . .

when you have frequencies on the order of 1/2 it can't just be rednecks. in the arab world elites do it plenty. one of sadam hussein's wives was his first cousin.

4 · Sanjeev Jain said

I agree with you "future". Finally, Pakistanis have a chance to make a positive difference in the world, lets not dash their hopes. /sarcasam

Razib can ask an outrageous question about "bringing up how they're inbred tards" or whatever because he has shown over the past four years that he's not a bigot. He's not anti-Islam or anti-Pakistan and he has thousands of data points among our archives to indicate that.

Follow the comment policy and all will be good. If you don't want to read it, here's the spark notes version: please keep the haterade to yourself, thanks.

...sorry about the crack ;-) i'll be good from now on, but it was just too easy....

here are tables on inbreeding rates. i'm going to post some of them here in a moment....

27 . razib said

...sorry about the crack ;-) i'll be good from now on, but it was just too easy....

Well, lucky for you I laughed out loud when I read that line, so you sailed right through the Manish Vij Memorial "Unless they're funny"-clause. When our forefathers drafted these guidelines they truly were visionary thinkers.

25 · razib

when you have frequencies on the order of 1/2 it can't just be rednecks. in the arab world elites do it plenty. one of sadam hussein's wives was his first cousin.

You may be right and correct in the big picture, and I'm not speaking from any deep or even thorough knowledge of Arab culture, but Saddam was a total "redneck"/thug/"lumpen prol." in terms of his class background in Iraq, just to keep things honest! I guess he obvioulsy became top-dog for quite a while, but--please let's not compare him in terms of class sophistication to the Hashemites or the pre-'79 persian ruling class, or the current Moroccan royal family, etc.

the coefficient of inbreeding of first cousins assuming no other recent inbreeding is 0.0625. here are some data from the linked table with location and the mean coeff of inbreeding (how closely the couple is related):

pakistan:
lahore - 0.0269
mianchannu - 0.0236
muridke - 0.0240
sheikhpura - 0.0271
gujrat - 0.0277
jhelum - 0.0262
rawalpindi - 0.0286
faisalabad - 0.0286
gujurunwala - 0.0323
sahiwal - 0.0295
all-punjab - 0.0280
lahore - 0.0242
all-pakistan 0.0332
quetta - 0.0217
swat (urban) - 0.0163
swat (rural) - 0.0166

i'm going to put b-desh and india numbers for comparison

bangladesh
matlab - 0.0015
teknaf - 0.0101

india
west bengal muslim - 0.0135
bihar (muslim suburban) - 0.0150
bihar (muslim rural) - 0.0249
bihar (all-muslim) 0.0076
east india all-region muslim - 0.0097
madhya pradesh hindu - 0.0033
madhya pradesh scheduled tribes & castes - 0.0145
madhya pradesh muslim - 0.0215
madhya pradesh christians - 0.0098
all muslims central india - 0.0168
dehli sunni muslim - 0.0100
lucknow shia muslim - 0.0202
udaipur shia muslim - 0.0218
dehli sunni muslim - 0.0180
lucknow hindu - 0.0001
lucknow muslim - 0.0095
all north india muslim - 0.0130
andhra pradesh - 0.0195
andhra pradesh - 0.0324
andra pradesh vedde - 0.0185
karnataka hindu - 0.0333
karnataka muslim - 0.0160
karnataka christian - 0.0173
all karnataka - 0.0299
kerala - 0.0118
kerala - 0.0075
tamil nadu - 0.0231
tamil nadu (rural) 0.0367
tamil nadu (urban) - 0.0203
tamil nadu brahmin - 0.0124
pondichery - 0.0449
bombay hindu - 0.0039
bombay muslim - 0.0095
bombay christian - 0.0012
bombay parsi - 0.0096
maharasthra - 0.0175
all west india muslim - 0.0201

27 · razib said

...sorry about the crack ;-)

I missed the crack, too? You guys never tell me about anything!

please let's not compare him in terms of class sophistication to the Hashemites or the pre-'79 persian ruling class, or the current Moroccan royal family, etc.

sure.

30 · rob said

let's not compare him in terms of class sophistication to the Hashemites or the pre-'79 persian ruling class, or the current Moroccan royal family, etc.

Right. "Only Royals can be inbred." Where have I read that before?

the hashemites are relatively outbred. you can check out their genealogy online. the current king is half-british. one of his father's brothers married a pakistani woman so he has brown looking cousins (queen noor is 1/4 arab, 1/2 swedish and 1/4 wasp i think).

My comment #30 is, of course, the perfect opportunity for my to disclose my own frequent "self-hatred" (thanks, Jai, by the way, for disputing (over multiple threads) the applicability of that term--I use it, in your honor, only in an ironic sense) for pining over some Persian "Banafshi," for example, when I fully realize that, as Puliogre has nicely pointed out, the super-charged economic action on the sub-continent is in the 4 southern provinces--of course, when I start thinking too much this way, I always end up drinking Amarillo at some West Village Italian place that is pressing good food on me to go with my drink, so--ultimately, what do I know?

btw, one generation of outbreeding can abolish almost all of inbreeding's negative effects through genetic complementation.

Didn't East is East have those inbred sisters (twins?) as the scary arranged marriage prospect for one of the kids? And that one was written by a Bangladeshi/Pakistani guy.

ss

35 · razib

the hashemites are relatively outbred. you can check out their genealogy online. the current king is half-british. one of his father's brothers married a pakistani woman so he has brown looking cousins (queen noor is 1/4 arab, 1/2 swedish and 1/4 wasp i think).

Absolutely!
And in comparison, Saddam--well,, not so much.
My ultimate point is that any kind of South-Asian-based pro-Arab bullshit is, well--bullshit. . . .my family has lived in Northern India for millenia, and we don't buy into any sort of pro-Iran or pro-Arab bullshit. Not that those civilizations are bad, just that we don't need to draw on them any more than we draw on China or the British.

My ultimate point is that any kind of South-Asian-based pro-Arab bullshit is, well--bullshit. . . .my family has lived in Northern India for millenia, and we don't buy into any sort of pro-Iran or pro-Arab bullshit.

well, the arabs had an influence mainly in south india, in kerala (they ruled sindh for a bit obviously). in north india it was all turk and persian. but what do you mean "pro-arab" bullshit? north indian hindus are exogamous, so their practices are at sharp variance with their muslim neighbors. muslims often justify their cousin-marriage practices that muhammad married a cousin (i think one of his many wives though, which anti-cousin marriage activists point to in terms of quantity).

40 · razib
but what do you mean "pro-arab" bullshit? north indian hindus are exogamous, so their practices are at sharp variance with their muslim neighbors.

Razib, I'm not sure what you mean here. Aren't most North and South Indian groups exogamous?
I guess you might mean to track some variance between North and South Hindus--I think a lot of that comes (historically). I'm not sure I think that my South Indian family has more endogamy than a North indian family--in fact, we would often make fun of the North Indians on that issue. (There is the stress from the north-western invaders, who are not Hindu (you even have the modern Sikhs who I think of as casualties of that civilizational collide--I respect the Sikhs though my sense is that they would deny that they arise from that Muslim-Hindu collision), shall I find it easy to mention! ;-)--but, at the end of the day, you have the Muslims fighting against the smart non-Mulsim math-types!).

Razib, I'm not sure what you mean here. Aren't most North and South Indian groups exogamous?

south indian hindus on average have a lot more endogamy. look at the numbers above and the coefficients of inbreeding. or look at the map. in south india among various hindu groups cross-cousin and uncle-niece marriages are common.

kerala has lower rates of inbreeding than the other 3 south indian states. i do not believe that uncle-niece marriages have ever been prevalent there (these marriages have twice the inbreeding coefficient of first cousin marriages).

42 · razib
in south india among various hindu groups cross-cousin and uncle-niece marriages are common.

This is, admittedly, the soft-spot in my world view!

44 · rob said

42 · razib
in south india among various hindu groups cross-cousin and uncle-niece marriages are common.

This is, admittedly, the soft-spot in my world view!

Yes, I know far too many southies to not be soft in this area either. I'm guessing there's no data to correlate inbreeding with low cognitive abilities or even income levels? (I'm thinking of the many high-achieving, high-IQ southies I know who are from communities that feverishly search the globe for ONLY marriage partners descended from a village a few miles from their own ancestral village).

I'm guessing there's no data to correlate inbreeding with low cognitive abilities or even income levels?

as i said, quantitative genetic studies indicate that the "cost" of a first cousin marriage without extra inbreeding on top is 5 IQ points.

e.g., assume that IQ is 0.50 heritable and you have a population mean of 100. you have individuals whose IQs are 110 and 120 who produce offspring.

if the two individuals are not related, the expected IQ of any given offspring is 107.5. if the two individuals are cousins the IQ is 102.5 per the 5 point "penalty."

FYI, saudi arabian hospitals are becoming very specialized in the area of treating rare recessive diseases....

Hopefully this will be another reason for Western countries to change there immigration policies to make harder for people to go to there homeland and marry someone who has nothing in common and instead marry someone there backward relatives want them.

Countries like Denmark,Holland and Beligum have seen the light and changed there immigration policies make harder for there kind of marriages. But Canada and United Kingdom are clueless and if there current immigration rate of people who come in like so there countries have would no longer be 1st world countries.

I can speak from personal experience, but being in arranged marriage is a nightmare.

But Canada and United Kingdom are clueless and if there current immigration rate of people who come in like so there countries have would no longer be 1st world countries.

Sorry, I should double check what I write before I post. It's just the issue of arranged marriage is very touchy to me.

What I meant to say is, that Canada and the United Kingdom are gonna be hurt in the long run, when they keep letting in so many people from the south asian, who are uneducated and have no chance of intergrating into western society. If this keep up, soon Canada and United Kingdom instead of being 1st world countries, but instead nothing but a cesspool of multicultrism.

Regarding the welfare state, I'm not sure the point even really matters. In cities in West Yorkshire, you'll find Asian populations to be completely self-segregated with their own doctors, grocery stores, etc. Asian immigrants don't take advantage of socialized healthcare because it isn't culturally sensitive AT ALL.

i'm confused, way back when my parents tried to arrange my marriage, they wanted me to marry within our subgroup "Agarwal" clan and they named about 16 different last names that would be appropriate, when i questioned the possibility of inbreeding they stated that would be avoided of course, but over time, even though the Agarwal clan is quite large (containing Mittals, Guptas, Tayals, etc.) I can't imagine how there could not be some element of narrowing the gene pool.
Scientifically, inbred populations do provide great genetic material to research, i'm sure us south asians aren't the only ones who encounter this...

south indian hindus on average have a lot more endogamy. look at the numbers above and the coefficients of inbreeding. or look at the map. in south india among various hindu groups cross-cousin and uncle-niece marriages are common.

This is true. But not all the 'first cousins' are valid partners. It should be mom's brother's boy/girl or dad's sister's boy/girl (unlike the Muslims where I believe there is no restriction). it is "cultural" and in rural areas still the norm. And as razib remarked, even the "educated" go for this arrangement if the girl is "hoooot". We make fun of our friend that he really didn't deserve the girl "lookswise" and has just lucked out because he was the "athai magan / maaman magan" .

This is another reason why the term 'Asian' ends up hurting Hindus and Sikhs in the U.K. There are too many cultural and behavioral differences with U.K. Muslims that get glossed over by that term.

>>A British politician has caused quite a stir with his statements regarding the defective results of the arrangements Asians accede to...his point is that this is a cultural practice which should be examined

For those of you who clamor for Government sponsored Universal Healthcare in the US, this is exhibit A to demonstrate how it is bound to eventually invade the privacy of citizens and infringe on the cultural practices of selected minorities.

The government has no business in telling private citizens whom they can marry, how many children they can have, if they should have more children etc etc. Unless of course, the Government pays for it. Then they will start conducting studies on "The effect of sambar powder on the reproductive tendencies of south Indians". The end result would be to pass a law telling south Indians that they can have at most 2 1/2 children.

By no means am I endorsing first-cousin marriage. My point is that cultural practices evolve over time and people following the practices should be free to stumble and make mistakes (for generations, if necessary). The last thing we need is for the Government to stick its nose into private affairs.

M. Nam

I'm thinking of the many high-achieving, high-IQ southies I know who are from communities that feverishly search the globe for ONLY marriage partners descended from a village a few miles from their own ancestral village).

and

when i questioned the possibility of inbreeding they stated that would be avoided of course, but over time, even though the Agarwal clan is quite large (containing Mittals, Guptas, Tayals, etc.) I can't imagine how there could not be some element of narrowing the gene pool.

In the hindu system there's something called a "Gotra". Although endogamous groups marry within their varna and jati ("caste") they do not marry within the same gotra (whatever that is). This supposedly prevents inbreeding.

Razib can ask an outrageous question about "bringing up how they're inbred tards" or whatever because he has shown over the past four years that he's not a bigot.

I think Razib does not get banned here because he is from a Bangladeshi Muslim family. I suspect that if Razib was a random white dude from Oregon with the same views, he would have been banned in 2004.

I do agree that Razib is not a bigot. Plus as an apostate he has kind of earned the right to be extra critical of Muslims.

Slightly unrelated to the discussion:

I know in English we just have "uncle" and "aunt" used for representing siblings of parents. In Tamil, we have separate words for each relation, for example "athai" is dad's sister and "chithi" is mom's sister. I think Telugu has different words too. Clearly we treat siblings of parents differently based on whether they are related through a mom / dad and hence the need for separate words. Do we have different words in Hindi or other languages. I'm tryng to find out if the presence / absence of such words indicate any relationship to the "marital arrangements" in that particular culture.

Clearly we treat siblings of parents differently based on whether they are related through a mom / dad and hence the need for separate words. Do we have different words in Hindi or other languages.

Urdu:
Moms sister: Khala
Dads sistet: Phuppo
Moms brother: Mama
Dads brother: Chacha (younger) and older (taia)

I believe in Hindi the Dads sister is Bua and Moms sister is Masi/Kaka. Rest are the same as Urdu.

Thanks,

I have heard "chacha" and "masi" (mausi??) not the other ones..

I have heard "chacha" and "masi" (mausi??) not the other ones..

mausi

Time means I comment on SM far less than I used to (I'm sure only a few here remember me). But certain things remain unchanged.

I'm glad you posted this here Anna as I wanted to read what Razib had to say, we did our bit on PP and I had to stand in as the resident geneticist, in the absence of a real one. The "one third of British birth with genetic defects being Pakistani" is, IMO, nonsense. I spent a few minutes trying to look up where this widely-quoted and never-referenced stat comes from and found nothing. The reasoning I gave in our comments for why I think this is rubbish is that the most common genetic defects in the UK are cystic fibrosis, sick cell anaemia and thalassaemia, which are all racially biased away from south Asians. So I would sugges the BBC is wrong.

Rob, whilst purely anecdotal, I know many Oxbridge Pakistanis (naturally the only ones I socialise with, what what) who have hooked up with their first cousins. Including doctors who all took genetics classes, but then again plenty of doctors smoke.

Anna I don't really see what this has to do with the Royal Family. I don't recall Woolas saying "we wouldn't do anything like this!"

What was I saying about things remaining unchanged? Oh yeah, MoorNam's still talking sh*t. If this post pertained to British LAW, you'd have a point. But your desperate attempt to work in a critique of universal healthcare is groundless. Discussing public health issues is healthy, not the sign of a meddling gov't.

52 · Amitabh said

This is another reason why the term 'Asian' ends up hurting Hindus and Sikhs in the U.K. There are too many cultural and behavioral differences with U.K. Muslims that get glossed over by that term.

I hear you and I thought of the exact same thing as I was reading about this pre-posting, but before one of the rabid anti-SM, anti-SouthAsian, anti-Islam, anti-Pakistan contingent seizes upon your comment, I am going to intervene as a preemptive measure.

I'd like to emphasize that the desi community in the U.K. is VERY different from the desi community in this country. We are an American blog and we are not going to change how we self-identify because of what goes on in other countries, nasty anonymous insults or a comment war, four years after the original comment wars; so if any of you feel the need to thread-jack as if this cousin-marriage issue is proof for your views, please refrain. You'll find enough vicious verbal sparring about how Muslims ruin brand "India" in our archives.

Any comments in this vein on this thread will be off-topic and will be deleted. I have a grueling day at work in store for me and if things become uncivilized, I'll close the thread, rather than extinguish a flame war. I'm sure I will not have to do that, though, because you're a reasonable, considerate group of adults who can discuss things without being babysat. Back on topic.

60 · Bong Breaker said

Anna I don't really see what this has to do with the Royal Family. I don't recall Woolas saying "we wouldn't do anything like this!"

He said it was a cultural thing. Part of royal culture is to marry within, to cousins who are also inbred. ;) I can't believe I have to explicitly say this to you of all people Bongsie, but I was trying to be snarky. That's what this has to do with the Royal family. :)

Good to see you again! Thanks for bringing the local perspective. :)

>>Discussing public health issues is healthy, not the sign of a meddling gov't.

Discussion of a health issue by a politician using a Government platform, and linking the health issue to the cultural practice of a certain class of people is a sign of meddling government. Universal healthcare will bring this to our doorsteps.

By all means, everyone has a right to discuss this (in blogs, papers, parties, private forums etc etc). When a politician opens his/her mouth in a public capacity, it's unwelcome intrusion.

M. Nam

63 · MoorNam said

Discussion of a health issue by a politician using a Government platform, and linking the health issue to the cultural practice of a certain class of people is a sign of meddling government. Universal healthcare will bring this to our doorsteps.

I'll allow it. I thought, "Hmmm, interesting idea I'd like to ponder" after MoorNam commented, and that is about as likely as a Red Sox fan wearing a Yankees hat. ;) That and others brought up similar thoughts up-thread.

*I appreciate the shout-out re: public health from BongBreaker, but I'm respectfully disagreeing, especially since it's election season and health care is a hot and relevant issue.

No no, I knew about the Royals' pairing preferences (and haemophilia etc) but what I meant that you have brought in the Royal Family as an example of British culture. Arguable, but point taken. If Prince William had said the above statement, then I'd understand your tack, but a British politician doesn't have to be a de facto supporter of Royal practices. (btw I hope you're feeling better A)

linking the health issue to the cultural practice of a certain class of people

is FACT, in this case.

Plus as an apostate he has kind of earned the right to be extra critical of Muslims.

I think that granting of that right has been rather subjective by the public. What about Ayaan Hirsi Ali ? She's an apostate too...has she earned that right too ?

Discussion of a health issue by a politician using a Government platform, and linking the health issue to the cultural practice of a certain class of people is a sign of meddling government.

A current story in the news about how a cultural practice can become a health issue:

For the first time, health officials report that the AIDS virus can be spread by a mother pre-chewing her infant's food, a practice mainly seen in poor, developing countries.

The first involved a 15-month-old African-American boy in Miami, diagnosed in 1993. His great-aunt was infected with HIV and pre-chewed food for the boy when he was between the ages of 9 months and 14 months.

Then a 3-year-old Caribbean-American boy was diagnosed in 1995, also in Miami. His HIV-infected mother pre-chewed food for her son.

Still uncertain they had definitively connected the practice to the spread of HIV, the doctors wanted more evidence. It was years later before they could confirm a third case, which occurred in 2004. A 9-month-old African-American girl was diagnosed with HIV in Memphis. The mother began pre-chewing the girl's food when she was about four months old.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23033131

Vikram -- by brother in Kram -- if Ayaan Ali Hirsi wanted to comment on the Sepiboard, I would welcome her. If Razib decided to work for the American Enterprise Institue (right down the hall from David "Axis-of-evil" Frum!), I would mock his sorry ass.

Neither Razib nor Ayaan are defined solely by their lack of religion -- for example, Razib is the wackest Bangladeshi-American rapper this side of Kevin Gnapoor. Can Ayaan rap? Does she rap about bombing Iran? Context matters.

(But I promise you, Vikram, that if you went to work as assittant-torture-justifier to Donald Herbert Walker Frumsfeld, I would defend you always. Kram Solidarity. Peace.)

another pro-1st-cousin marriages reason i've heard is that it helps to keep the "traditions"/"values" in the clan/family.

E.g. when your mum-in-law is also your dad's sister (for example), whom you've known since young, there's less chance of gossip, scurrilous or otherwise, going around.

In Singapore, the main Indian groups known to be into 1st-cousin marriages are:
- some North Indians: mainly Muslims/Pakistanis, but also some well-to-do Sikhs from "old" families, for whom keeping the "traditions" intact matters
- some South Indians: not sure what caste/group my friend was from, but his mama (mum's brother) married his sister

#68:
Uh ok... that was more than a bit muddled in syntax and meaning... but I'll indulge you and assume you actually had something relevant to say... Peace.

Razib -- do you have the cite for the inbreeding co-efficients you list? The numbers look a little funny. Punjab is 60% of Pakistan, yet the all-Punjab number is .0280 and the all-pakistan number is .0332. That gives a non-Punjab figure of .041. But the numbers for given for NWFP -- Pindi (.0286) and Swat (.016) -- are well below the all-Pak number, which means Sindh must be unbeleivable inbred to bring the all-Pak average up to .0332.

But it isn't. So what's going on?

Re: 61 · A N N A said

52 · Amitabh said

I'd like to emphasize that the desi community in the U.K. is VERY different from the desi community in this country. We are an American blog and we are not going to change how we self-identify ...

Yes, that makes a lot of sense, but I guess what confuses newbies (like I was) is, if this is an "American" blog, then why would desi issues in the UK or elsewhere be discussed? Maybe, SM's bloggers should have a policy that non-US issues should be discussed by specifying why these issues are relevant to desis in the US? That would link up staying a US Desi blog and commenting on global Desi happenings.

another pro-1st-cousin marriages reason i've heard is that it helps to keep the "traditions"/"values" in the clan/family.

The best way to keep traditions/old values is not to move to the west.

#41, I agree Sikhs are somewhat a result of the hindu muslim civilization collision-the founders being tired of both religions orthodoxy (course over generations we are starting to go that way). On the topic of marriage with cousins-its looked down upon especially in the Jat Sikhs. I have heard of family members saying that traditionally, ppl avoid arranging marriage if the groom or bride's parents or grandparents have the same last name. Of course, most Jats marry other Jats so there is always some level of inbreeding. Punjabis, though, contain genes from a LOT of invaders-Turks/Afghan/Persian/Greek/Mongol-so there is more diversity to go around (?)

is, if this is an "American" blog, then why would desi issues in the UK or elsewhere be discussed?

Why wouldn't they? Desi people in America (yes, even 2nd gens) have family and friends everywhere and beyond that, some of us are interested in what happens in diasporic communities. What an odd question.

Maybe, SM's bloggers should have a policy that non-US issues should be discussed by specifying why these issues are relevant to desis in the US? That would link up staying a US Desi blog and commenting on global Desi happenings.

Implicit in this is the notion that we should have certain areas of coverage and that we don't deserve to post about something global, without a disclaimer.

We are an American blog because we were founded by desis who were born and raised in this country, not because we chose to be hemmed in to subject-ive straightjackets. The point of stating that we are American is to express that we write from an American perspective, not that we only write about things with explicit connections to this country.

This entire exchange is off-topic and has the potential to derail the thread. I'd respectfully ask that going forward, if you respond, to please do so via email. Back on topic, everyone.

Just wanted to say that I find this thread fascinating! I remember there being a discussion in my genetics course in college about the risk that inbreeding poses on a fetus, and the numbers for 1st cousins was generally small. However, this post is pointing out the fact that multiple 1st-cousin marriages over a string of generations can have a negative cumulative effect on the genetic pool of a family.

I come from a very small caste in Gujarat..so small in fact that my Mom told me that she's glad we moved to the States because there wouldn't have been any guys in my caste for me to marry. Totally weird to hear that.

While many places in the world have some sort of taboo against inbreeding, Britain also has a cultural taboo against people who keep trying to breed with themselves, so much so that it is now a generic insult in British English for anything, including losing at cards.

While Americans tend to be more relaxed about making relations weirder than usual.

/removes tongue from cheek

This is yet another fave topic to rile people up that's linked to this trend of bringing up anti muslim sentiment.
The whole thing comes up every once in a while in he media about genetic defects and inbreeding and as mentioned there seems to be no valid references.

There are too many cultural and behavioral differences with U.K. Muslims that get glossed over by that term.

Again the majority of British public are aware of the differences of the different asain communities but no need to go there. Anyhow there is nothing in Islamis thats about marrying cousins. It's probably just about 'keeping tradition and wealth in the family'.

Am I too late to comment on this post? I always miss the interesting stuff.

My grandparents were first cousins. I don't really know the history of my family, but I'm betting a very sizeable proportion of their forebears were pretty closely related before marriage as well. The whole thing has to do with keeping the property within the family, as ours is a matriarchal system. I blame most of my health related issues on them. I was one of those who got lucky and only got Asthma as my share of the family inheritance [/barf]. I've got a few close relatives who got blessed with double soda glasses since they could barely walk, and a nice dose of depression as an added bonus (you know how well that gets treated in India. The ignorance is horrifying).

I think they're completely justified in bringing up this topic, and (expletive) all those tender societal sensibilities of those (expletive) ignorant morons. It is us, the product of their arrant avarice and ignorance who end up paying the cost.

P.S: Uh .. SM Intern, is there an acceptable word for the expletive, which kinda has the same force of expression that I can use without crossing boundaries here. I swear I'm tryingto clean up my language, but sometimes, those words are needed :-)

Most of my relatives use the words "cousin-brother" or "cousin-sister" when referring to cousins. Its also customary to call older cousins bai or ben (brother or sister). Do Pakistanis or Indian Muslims do this? I'm guessing probably not since that would make cousin marriage even more weird.

From what i've seen in the uk and met people in this marriages, when the marriages happen it's normally to a cousin the bride or groom has never had any contact with either cos they are from abroad or they didn't grow up together.

Dr1001:

The whole thing comes up every once in a while in he media about genetic defects and inbreeding and as mentioned there seems to be no valid references.

Um, were you not reading the comments nor the article? There's plenty of evidence - a simple MedLine or Ovid search reveals extensive research into it.

Apologies. that read incorrectly: of course there are references and im aware of these, but i meant this is not the predominant cause of defects ...

Do Pakistanis or Indian Muslims do this? I'm guessing probably not since that would make cousin marriage even more weird.

I don't know about Pakistani Muslims, but Indian Muslims just say cousin brother inshallah.

For those of you who clamor for Government sponsored Universal Healthcare in the US, this is exhibit A to demonstrate how it is bound to eventually invade the privacy of citizens and infringe on the cultural practices of selected minorities.

Thank goodness, politicians does not indulge in any comments about other cultures in the US, except when it comes to senior citizens or the extremely poor. Oh, I forgot. Pandering is permissible, it's only negative comments that aren't.

79 • lostingeekdom said

SM Intern, is there an acceptable word for the expletive, which kinda has the same force of expression that I can use without crossing boundaries here. I swear I'm tryingto clean up my language, but sometimes, those words are needed :-)

Yes, there is an acceptable word; it is often referred to as "the F-bomb". I realize that if you're trying to clean up your language, that suggestion is not going to help. We don't moderate profanity, per se. If --to borrow from a current Orbit commercial--you say "Why the french toast are we discussing the kama sutra again?", that is fine. If you say, "You know what, Abhi? You can go french toast yourself for not appreciating Modi", that's a bit different.

Excellent!

Razib, the data you've presented is for the most part from surveys in the 60s and 70s. Come across anything more recent?

Jumping in mid-thread, but has anyone seen this? Arrived in my Sci Am weekly digest just now.

When Incest Is Best: Kissing Cousins Have More Kin

Study analyzing more than 200 years of data finds that couples consisting of third cousins have the highest reproductive success

By Nikhil Swaminathan

[...]

Scientists came to their conclusions after studying the records of more than 160,000 Icelandic couples with members born between 1800 and 1965. "The advantage of using the Icelandic data set lies in this population being small and one of the most socioeconomically and culturally homogenous societies in the world," the researchers report in Science, "with little variation in family size [and] use of contraceptives and marriage practices, in contrast with most previously studied populations."

The results of the exhaustive study are constant throughout the generations analyzed. Women born between 1800 and 1824 who mated with a third cousin had significantly more children and grandchildren (4.04 and 9.17, respectively) than women who hooked up with someone no closer than an eighth cousin (3.34 and 7.31). Those proportions held up among women born more than a century later when couples were, on average, having fewer children.

[...]

"It may well be that the enhanced reproductive success observed in the Iceland study at the level of third [and] fourth cousins, who on average would be expected to have inherited 0.8 percent to 0.2 percent of their genes from a common ancestor," Bittles says, "represents this point of balance between the competing advantages and disadvantages of inbreeding and outbreeding."

85 · SM Intern said

79 . lostingeekdom said

SM Intern, is there an acceptable word for the expletive, which kinda has the same force of expression that I can use without crossing boundaries here. I swear I'm tryingto clean up my language, but sometimes, those words are needed :-)

Yes, there is an acceptable word; it is often referred to as "the F-bomb". I realize that if you're trying to clean up your language, that suggestion is not going to help. We don't moderate profanity, per se. If --to borrow from a current Orbit commercial--you say "Why the french toast are we discussing the kama sutra again?", that is fine. If you say, "You know what, Abhi? You can go french toast yourself for not appreciating Modi", that's a bit different.
Excellent!

Ah .. don't tempt me. I'm not really trying to clean up my language, just trying to ensure that I don't incur the wrath of the almighty SM Intern and get kicked out before I've made enough mischief to warrant getting kicked out ;-) Though French Toasting my previous comment would reduce the sting of my long fermenting, deep seated bitterness at the asininity of my ancestors, and I'm not quite ready to let go of that yet :-P

And .. blech about Modi. I don't want to think about the maroons who still think he's all peaches and cream.

We are an American blog because we were founded by desis who were born and raised in this country,

But what would you do. if you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom.

JGandhi:

Most of my relatives use the words "cousin-brother" or "cousin-sister" when referring to cousins. Its also customary to call older cousins bai or ben (brother or sister). Do Pakistanis or Indian Muslims do this? I'm guessing probably not since that would make cousin marriage even more weird.

I have heard this usage widely but not universally, and it was once explained to me that "cousin-brother" and "cousin-sister" refers to a cousin that one is not allowed to marry using society's rules, while "cousin" refers to a cousin one IS allowed to marry using the same rules.

The common rule for deciding marriageability in Tamil Nadu is the bitwise parity rule, which says that you're allowed to marry a relative if the bit parity of the path you trace to him/her is odd, assigning bits (0/1) based on the gender of intermediate relatives, and XORing the bits as you go along. According to this rule, the examples that Ponniyin Selvan gave (father's sister's child and mother's brother's child) are odd parity and allowed, while the converses (mother's sister's child and father's brother's child) are even parity and not allowed.

Hey, I didn't come up with this stuff!

You can find a brief write-up on Wikipedia however, which I paste below:

Floyd Lounsbury (1964) discovered a seventh, "Dravidian" type of terminological system that had been confused with Iroquois in Morgan’s typology of kin-term systems because both systems distinguish relatives by marriage from relatives by descent, although both are classificatory categories rather than based on biological descent. Kay (1967), Scheffler (1971), and Tjon Sie Fat (1981) gave variant criteria for Dravidian classificatory logic, but the basic idea is that of applying an even/odd distinction to relatives that takes into account the gender of every linking relative for ego’s kin relation to any given person. A MFBD(C), for example, is a mother’s father’s brother’s daughter’s child. If each female link (M,D) is assigned a 0 and each male (F,B) a 1, the number of 1s is either even or odd; in this case, even. In a Dravidian system with a patrilineal modulo-2 counting system, marriage is prohibited with this relative, and a marriageable relative must be modulo-2 odd. There exists also a version of this logic with a matrilineal bias. Discoveries of systems that use modulo-2 logic, as in South Asia, Australia, and many other parts of the world, marked a major advance in the understanding of kinship terminologies that differ in from kin relations and terminologies employed by Europeans.

Apparently not used only in Tamil Nadu.

90 · pingpong said

JGandhi:

The common rule for deciding marriageability in Tamil Nadu is the bitwise parity rule, which says that you're allowed to marry a relative if the bit parity of the path you trace to him/her is odd, assigning bits (0/1) based on the gender of intermediate relatives, and XORing the bits as you go along. According to this rule, the examples that Ponniyin Selvan gave (father's sister's child and mother's brother's child) are odd parity and allowed, while the converses (mother's sister's child and father's brother's child) are even parity and not allowed.

Hey, I didn't come up with this stuff!

Yep, you're right. Not just in Tamilnadu. I'm from coastal Karnatak, and this rule is applicable in my community. I'm betting this also applies for parts of Kerala as well.

Yep, you're right. Not just in Tamilnadu. I'm from coastal Karnatak, and this rule is applicable in my community. I'm betting this also applies for parts of Kerala as well.

Except that one might expect Kerala to be matrilineal and assign 0 to males and 1 to females, while TN usually does the opposite. (This won't matter if the number of intermediate relatives is itself even, like first cousins or second cousins, but it will matter for relations like "mother's brother's daughter's daughter's child").

In your earlier comment, you said that

I've got a few close relatives who got blessed with double soda glasses since they could barely walk

Did you mean that they had to wear glasses from the time they could walk or did you mean that their vision was so bad that they kept walking into obstacles?

"The last thing we need is for the Government to stick its nose into private affairs."

It is probably too late for that. The corruption of the democratic process began with the income tax and the subsequent vote-buying through wealth redistribution policies.

Except that one might expect Kerala to be matrilineal and assign 0 to males and 1 to females, while TN usually does the opposite. (This won't matter if the number of intermediate relatives is itself even, like first cousins or second cousins, but it will matter for relations like "mother's brother's daughter's daughter's child").

Are you kidding? If not, I am not sure I understand. Mother's brother's daughter's daughter's child should be acceptable by the odd parity rule, independent of the gender assignment of 0s and 1s, right? What might matter is which link takes precedence if there is a conflict i.e. both parents have conflicting relative links, and you need to pick one for the rule (i.e. you are not checking all possible link combinations).

92 · pingpong said

Except that one might expect Kerala to be matrilineal and assign 0 to males and 1 to females, while TN usually does the opposite. (This won't matter if the number of intermediate relatives is itself even, like first cousins or second cousins, but it will matter for relations like "mother's brother's daughter's daughter's child").

Ok, my brain is a little addled with flu, so you're losing me with the parity bits. My community is also matrilineal, and here's what's acceptable and what isn't, as far as I'm aware of:

Brother and sister's kids: yes. Brother and brother or sister and sister's kids won't work. The family name goes through the mother, so those with the same family names cannot marry.

I think people use simple rules to calculate who is "murai" paiyan or "murai" ponnu meaning with whom matrimony is allowed instead of the complex boolean math across generations.

mom's brother's kids / dad's sister's kids are allowed. They are "murai". If you want to go back one generation, that is mom's mom's brother's son's daughter, you need to take the relationship of mom with her mom's brother's son. Mom and him are "murai", since they are not married, he becomes a brother (in relationship terms) of the dad. And his kids are not legal.

I just found this article from British paper today. It's about a Britsh Pakistan educated girl who forced to marry her father fat uneductated cousin who is 20 years older then her.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=513757&in_page_id=1879

When will the goverment of England see the light, and changes it immigration laws, to not only saves the lifes of thousands of young south asian women, but also it country in the long run.

I try to post this, in the news section. But the stupid thing said my password was wrong again.

Are you kidding? If not, I am not sure I understand. Mother's brother's daughter's daughter's child

Crap. I mistakenly put in one too many "daughter's" for whatever reason. Apologies. Apparently I like having daughters around.

And yes, it might be easier to just see if the number of ones is odd or even instead of doing a full XOR (though both give the same answer).

But it isn't. So what's going on?

re: inbreeding coefficients, my cites came from many different studies. the "all punjab" study might not have draw on the same data as the specific location studies. the inbreeding coefficient numbers for humans give a general sense, but can't be taken as that precise.

re: the iceland study, i blogged it here. note that the 1st and 2nd cousin marriages were less fertile, while the 3rd and 4th cousin marriages were the most fertile. 3rd and 4th cousins are not generally an issue for deleterious recessives unless you have A LOT of repeated inbreeding in your family tree.

finally: re: universal health care, i'm pretty sure that we're going to have similar discussions in the USA without or without it. after al, even without universal health care we have medicare and medicaid and what not. selective abortions of babies with down syndrome means that the number of these children has decreased greatly in the past generation, but some individuals (often religious conservatives for obvious reasons) continue to go to term with these fetuses. one can calculate the economic cost of health care and services for this individuals, so these parents often feel that they are judged that they went to term. we might as well start talking about these things since we're not isolated islands, the choices of other people do affect you.

Crap. I mistakenly put in one too many "daughter's" for whatever reason.

Well, independent of all that, my basic question is why the mapping of genders to 0s or 1s matters. It should be the same whether female=1 or 0, right? The only implication of matriarchy or patriarchy is which link should take precedence in case of conflicting relative links, isn't it?

Sorry to be nitpicking, I am not sure if I am missing something.

we might as well start talking about these things since we're not isolated islands, the choices of other people do affect you.

Now that's just socialist commie crazy talk!

90 · pingpong said

I have heard this usage widely but not universally, and it was once explained to me that "cousin-brother" and "cousin-sister" refers to a cousin that one is not allowed to marry using society's rules, while "cousin" refers to a cousin one IS allowed to marry using the same rules.

[as is my lack/disregard of punctuation in these sentences].