February 12, 2008
Forget Will Smith, Time For Karva ChauthFilm
In the past, I was somewhat snarky when it came out that Aishwarya Rai, before her marriage to Abhishek Bachchan, agreed to marry a Peepul tree because of her “Manglik” status. 
The New York Times had a story recently (thanks, Jamie), which described how Aishwarya Bachchan recently dropped out of a Hollywood project with Will Smith in order to be home in Mumbai to celebrate Karva Chauth.
For those who don’t know, Karva Chauth is a traditional Hindu festival where wives fast for a whole day without food or water as a symbol of their devotion to their husbands. I have many women friends who object to the festival as regressive, though I also know one or two people who do observe it out of a sense of loyalty to tradition. (Perhaps not too surprisingly, the women I know who observe it are NRIs, not ABDs. Are there any ABDs out there who observe Karva Chauth?)
Here is the quote the NYT gives regarding Aish’s decision to return to Mumbai for Karva Chauth:
Ultimately Ms. Bachchan chose to return to Mumbai and starve with a smile. National television channels covered her first Karva Chauth as headline news. Two months later she shrugged off her loss in an interview. “You do what you have to do,” she said. “Feeling torn and thereby unhappy, confused or guilty is not something I want to feel. So you make your choices and go with it. You get some and some you don’t.” (link)
What to say. From what I can tell, everything Aish does outside of her acting seems to reflect a pretty sincere traditionalism. One has to presume she’s observing Karva Chauth because she really wants to, not because anyone put pressure on her to do so. So, if we accept that the festival of Karva Chauth isn’t inherently sexist (and the case can be made that it is), here I’m inclined to give props to Aish for putting tradition over her career. It certainly beats America’s celebrity culture — which has lately just been depressingly bad, what with Britney losing her mind, and Amy Winehouse smoking crack…
On the other hand, the Indian media loves this kind of thing, so it may be that sacrificing a romantic comedy with Will Smith might actually help her Bollywood career — and she can have both. Jodhaa Akbar, anyone?
amardeep on February 12, 2008 11:09 AM in Film · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
On the other hand, the Indian media loves this kind of thing, so it may be that sacrificing a romantic comedy with Will Smith might actually help her Bollywood career
By chosing not to have romantic lead with a blackman, helped her Bollywood career, sad as that sounds is.
I find this weird. Despite being an ABD, I lived in India too and rarely heard of women fasting a whole day for their husbands. I just asked my cousin about it and she has no idea about it. And I wonder if Aish has led a very chaste life and followed every single Hindu traditional practice regardless of how silly it may be. All of a sudden, she throws up a good movie opportunity for a freaking fast for a husband day?
Anyway, it's her personal wish to do how she pleases. But I do not see it as an indication of character just because she is blindly following some tradition.
I am glad the most beautiful Indian actress / super star decided to not appear in a a "romantic comedy" opposite Will Smith. Will Smith a major star but not at the same super star level as Aishwara Rai. This would have destroyed her image.
Apparently, there are ABDs who fast for Karva Chauth: http://www.abcdlady.com/2007-01/art4.php
Perhaps someone can explain. In my family of Kashmiri Sikhs, none of us have ever celebrated Karva Chauth. We know Punjabi Sikhs, however, who do. Why? Cultural tradition rather than religious tradition? Of course, we Kashmiris seem to do everything wrong, what with our meat-eating pandits!
obvious typo. I meant "gives up" .
I know plenty of people (including myself, my mother, and plenty of friends) who celebrate Karva Chauth. Of course, our husbands fast with us as well. Far from regressive, it's just a way for us to appreciate each other.
another question. Does the tradition specify where you need to be during the fast? Why couldn't she fast for a day in Hollywood?
Of course, our husbands fast with us as well. Far from regressive, it's just a way for us to appreciate each other.
That's great -- but isn't it a bit of a diasporic twist?
Wow, and I thought Americans were insular. Ash may be a huge star, but on a global level, I'm not sure one is any bigger than the other.
While I am hesitant to make assumptions about people's reasons, I can't help but wonder to what extent our parent's generation (and worse, many from our own) would have been crushed at seeing India's perfect little angel in a romantic lead role with a black man.
That said, I really, really wish it would have happened and I don't think I'm being paranoid to suggest that this "holiday" may be being used as a big F'en excuse to keep it from happening.
With all due respect, the latter part of that phrase was completely unnecessary. First of all, I am pretty sure she's British and second of all, people's addictions to drugs shouldn't be compared with their religious traditions. Religion is way more dangerous.
Brown NYC: I think it's sweet that you and your husband fast together instead of you fasting alone.
I read the original NYT article..........it is just wishy-washy, brouhaha.
First, Will Smith and Ash have been talking about doing a movie together for a while. Will Smith visited India last year, and has invested in a recent Bollywood movie.
Movie deals are not made or broken over a few days absence - They are more dependent on business decisions, and rate of return for people behind them. A recent example is Woody Allen could not get Robert Downey Jr for a movie since the underwriters for that particular movie (not the producers but the insurance company that insures the produces) would not let him in the cast because of RDJ's past substance abuse, and risk of not movie being completed.
Eventually, Will Smith and Ash will make a movie.
This article is more a PR for Ash how even though is a global brand (with all the cosmetic adverts around the wold) but still traditionalist at heart.
i think all this hype abt hindu tradtions is because of that Mr Sooraj R. Barjatya and his melodramatic and glamorous movies. But one can argue whats life without some style and glamour.
Question:
Why are folks at the Sepia mutiny so fascinated with Ash?
Not that there is anything wrong with it, I am just curious.
Totally agree with Port, these husband-worshiping festivals like Karva Chauth are the very definition of regressive.
and one of the reasons I am not a big fan of Hindi movies is this Pati Parmeshwar nonsense that they perpetuate.
3 · ben said
Not at the same super star level? (Rolls eyes) Please, Will Smith is a two-time Oscar Best Actor nominee, a successful actor who fills the seats in theaters and a tv/film producer. Not to add more racial taboos, but I have to disagree about the level of stardom of Will Smith in comparison to Aish. Now if Aish's leading man was Martin Lawrence, THEN I could see why she would bow out.
I'm not the closest follower of celebrity culture (because i've blocked TMZ on my browser and don't watch TV) but because you really can't escape the 'news' it generates, I can kind of understand what you're driving at--however smoking crack doesn't appear to be part of 'celeb culture' (i would say it's more a part of F**&-up culture than anything else) and bipolarism has nothing to do with celeb culture in particular either.
I never really appreciated Amardeep's initial snark on the topic of tree marriage but I find this even less appealing--what is exactly 'sad' about the women that go through with the ritual? That apparently well-adjusted young women are following their mothers in a fairly silly but otherwise harmless (no unilateral fasting) tradition? That they are 'defective' because they seem to ascribe to an inherently sexist norm?
I let my mother (who underwent the tree marriage 'ordeal' as well) apply burnt cow-dung to my forehead and throat (among other strange and possibly debasing rituals like rolling around temples in devotional positions) every single time I visit her house because i wish to humor her and keep the peace (as an atheist in a very religious family)--why are we not exploring that possibility in this case? It's not like she really needs the Will Smith movie to remain fiscally solvent, emotionally secure or healthy in general.
that being said, it definitely does matter if her hubby will be fasting as well--it can't quite be sexist if there is mutual suffering.
This is an entertaining story and post, but that statement gets pretty close to crossing the line into gross exaggeration. Turning down role opportunities is something that actors do all the time for a variety of reasons, and as you say, it's debatable how much impact this will really have on her career in the long run (my guess is not very much at all).
Then again, who knows: with actions like this showing her commitment to "tradition," maybe someday she'll be top celebrity spokeswoman for the BJP.
The article was a condensed version of the interview which she did with Anupama Chopra on TV. During that interview she mentioned that the reason for turning down the role with Will Smith was because Teji Bachchan was critically ill (passed away in December) and she did not want to be away from home at that time. So, the reason was not just for Karva Chauth.
I hate organized religion but respect other people's choices. BTW, Amithabh has mentioned fasting for Jaya during Karva Chauth so they are not as regessive as some folks think. Finally, the marrying a tree story has been explicitly denied by Amitabh and Aishwarya yet some folks still insist on believing a media lie.
Will Smith was in Mumbai recently and said he has offered her a few roles but because of scheduling isssues they have not been able to work together yet.
Right on Huey, Will Smith is the definition of a megastar - remember a few years ago when he owned the July 4th weekend for three years? (see, I understand American holidays)
As Kush says, Smith and Rai have been rumbling on about a joint project for ages. I think it will be bad, not for any racial reason or anything like that, I just think the on-screen chemistry will be woeful. WOEFUL!
My thoughts exactly.
And I do think that this is just a PR stunt for Aish, nothing more. Bollywood stars need to be more responsible abt their actions since it does affect many youngsters who idolize them. What kind of vrat she keeps, when and for whom is a very personal thing and not something that you tell the whole world.
hey! it may not rock your boats, but if it works for some why consider it a affront to your individual senses. the 'regressive' opinion seems prejudiced. so what if thsi person is an actor, she's entitled to her personal faith.
Oh, and can we not define the 'Western' celebrity culture and Indian celebrity culture in such one-dimensional ways? Britney is hardly representative. Amy Winehouse maybe more so. Messed up musicians are universal, at least she has some genuine talent unlike a lot of other Western and Indian celebs. Likewise Ash is not representative of Indian celebs. Bollywood is a filth-infested shagfest much of the time and you guys in the US are lucky not to be exposed to the second class celebs, TV stars etc. One showbiz is not purer than the other.
Which leads me on to kusala's point. Many 'traditionally' minded stars use the celebrity status reinforce regressive views. Leave aside religion, people like (forget her name, the woman from Ekta Kapoor's soaps, Tulsi?) are famed for their staunch BJP views. They're nationalists.
I agree. I vaguely knew of Ash until a few years ago. And even then, I had no idea she was such a megastar until 4 years ago. And she can't match Will Smith when it comes to acting talent. And you know what, I don't even think she is the hottest Indian actress, let alone world actress. All this hype about her being the most beautiful woman in the world.
"Do other Bollywood celebs promote their religious practices/choices?"
In my opinion, indian celebs have always been fairly traditional/religious, no matter what religious background they are from. the media glare is more intense now and covers their actions in a quite intrusive fashion. i think it's unfair, based on this article, and on the background that carol gives above, to accuse her of promoting her religious practices/choices. i don't see them doing it any more than say, a salman khan or sanjay dutt, who suddenly become ostentatiously religious for their court appearances - even though they probably are religious anyways -- or a bipasha basu who is featured on tv, along with other celebrities, celebrating diwali for the media cameras. and whether she married a tree or not, or chooses to fast for her husband for a day, how is that any more sexist than women taking their husband's names after marriage, or referring to God as a he, or any more regressive than merely entering a temple, mosque, church etc and indulging in all sorts of mumbo jumbo? marriage ceremonies/customs around the world themselves are regressive. is a woman jumping out of a cake at a bachelor party progressive? and so what if her husband may not have fasted for her? is he beating her up? because being beaten is more sexist, yet when she alleged this, she was the one who was vilified.
Keep your personal faith personal and do not tell the whole world abt it.
So, on the same lines, would you say that the SRK's ad for the Fairness cream for Men is OK ? Then according to you - its SRK's opinion that fair skinned men are better, right?
Wasn't calling Aish regressive, she can do whatever she likes, I don't particularly care.
I was calling the tradition of the husband-worshiping festivals and the whole Pati-Parmeshwar business in Hindi movies regressive.
25 · Pravin said
Hmmm...which blog was born four years ago...damn my exhaustion-induced brain fog. ;)
Re ben #3
Seriously??
Let's count the worldwide distribution and gross profit of Will Smith's movies versus Aishwarya Rai's movies. Will Smith averages way over $100 million PER movie (more than Tom Hanks!), not to mention that his movies are much more widely seen than any of her movies are-- plus, add in the fact that the man is a Grammy-winning musician AND producer. Aishwarya Rai is extremely lucky if she even bags half as much.
Seriously.
This worship of her is rather extreme.
Leave aside religion, people like (forget her name, the woman from Ekta Kapoor's soaps, Tulsi?) are famed for their staunch BJP views. They're nationalists.
Dude, Bong Breaker welcome back.
But,
Ash, and the whole Bachchan clan are direhard Samajawadi Party (a party of dalits from UP) people, and Ms. Jaya Bachchan is a Rajya Sabha member from SP. They have nothing to do with BJP.
Now,
Religion and Nationalism in entertainment media is universal. Some examples:
Elvis Presley = While he himself was a drug addict, he was the drug czar for US administration. He was also anti-commie symbol, and attack dog
Ingrid Bergmann = Was declared persona non grata by US Senate since she played nun in movies but became pregnant in real life
Jimmy Stewart and all = Being active in WW 2 was used by Hollywood to the max
Nixon era = Hollywood actors and all were blacklisted for supposedly "red" views
Tom Cruise = Has scientology tent installed on sets when he acts on moveis recently
Mel Gibson = Bankrolled Passion of Christ. I guess you know his and his dad views on Jews
Beatles = John Lennon's view on JC almost derailed their earlier tour, and they later left US for a while since FBI did not like their "Back in the USSR" and socialist views.
Ingrid Bergmann = Was declared persona non grata by US Senate since she played nun in movies but became pregnant in real life to another married man while she was married herself
I meant: in real life by another married man while she was married herself
I think clinging to these traditions is a way in which otherwise very westernised Indians can still feel they have some 'Indian' left in them. These customs (good or bad) give you a culture and an identity...and I think that's something America's celebrities lack. So there probably is a psychological basis for people like Aish to follow this.
26 · Whose God is it anyways? said
Apparently, everyone here is determined to ignore my message.
During the interview with Chopra, she did not once mention religion. The topic of Karva Chauth came up when Chopra posed a question regarding the intrusiveness of the media. Apparently it was covered in the national media as a news event.
Why are folks here determined to paint this women in a bad light? Who has she harmed? I'm curious.
She is not a great actress but then I find most actors and actresses to be on par. Let her live her life.
See, how you feel? And SRK said it in a ad for the whole world to see. And that's why the Bollywood stars need to be more responsible abt their actions.
The reason why this whole Aish incident hurts is b'cos now there are going to be a lot of in-laws who will be giving Aish's example to their Bahu and asking them to do this vrat. It angers us women.
And it's interesting, isn't it Kush, how the view of religion has changed over time in Western media? Elvis could sell millions singing gospel music then but not now. Celebs like Mel and Tom - who openly state their religious views - get vilified in the media. Just observing that's all...
Thanks, whose Godiia, for taking the time to answer.
Hmm this sounds like it came from a tabloid more than the NYT. Who cancels an entire movie because of a one day religious/cultural commitment? This woman is a jetsetter and flies around the world like nobody's business - I'm sure it wouldn't be tough for her to take 3 days off from filming to fly to India and back. Normally I'm all for celebrity gossip, but this is just stupid.
le khoof: i said she is free to do whatever she likes, but i'm also allowed to think it is sad, and allowed to say it is not behavior which should be emulated.
Did you mean Aishwarya is using tradition as a prop to further her career?
What can you do? People, People who need peepul, are NOT the luckiest people in the world.
carol, not sure, but i think you misunderstood my reason for quoting you. i referred to your post because i agreed with it and you gave a wider and more accurate context/background. i have to say that i do think that aishwarya rai and the bachchans, though, like any other celebrities, they do use the media, also take a lot of unnecessary flak from the media and on here at times. they are criticized for being regressive for doing things that millions of Indians, including other celebrities/politicans/business people in India, do all the time, but the word "regressive" seems to be thrown at them more for some reason.
take cricket, tendulkar goes to temples to get special blessings and pujas to ward off certain bad times or to seek special blessings. robin uthappa crosses himself on the field. irfan pathan/munaf patel/all the pakistani players pepper their speeches with inshallah and begin each post-match interview with an invocation, sreesanth does a medley of multireligious gestures derived from hindu and christian practices and others probably, they all look to the skies after scoring tons etc. i've never heard anyone refer to them as regressive, or ask what god has to do with sports. when shah rukh peppers his speeches on stages with inshallahs, no one calls him regressive. that's because, except to the really "progressive" who sneer (and sometimes they sneer with good reason, but unfortunately they are not exactly fair or equal opportunity in their sneering of religion), these public gestures and religiousity are no big deal in india and just part of people's lives in a mostly innocent manner. this is not to say that there aren't excessive uses of religion and promoting of it by some, but in general it's just people's customs. i think some of the aversion here is just the product of looking at it from a westernize, overly sanitized diasporic point of view.
ENOUGH ALREADY - READ THIS BEFORE PASSING JUDGEMENT
The article was a condensed version of the interview which she did with Anupama Chopra on TV. During that interview she mentioned that the reason for turning down the role with Will Smith was because Teji Bachchan was critically ill (passed away in December) and she did not want to be away from home at that time. So, the reason was not just for Karva Chauth.
I hate organized religion but respect other people's choices. BTW, Amithabh has mentioned fasting for Jaya during Karva Chauth so they are not as regessive as some folks think. Finally, the marrying a tree story has been explicitly denied by Amitabh and Aishwarya yet some folks still insist on believing a media lie.
Will Smith was in Mumbai recently and said he has offered her a few roles but because of scheduling isssues they have not been able to work together yet.
THE END
I saw the interview on NDTV recently.
dalits is probably a typo; OBC would be more accurate. See here
I personally can't see Karwa chauth and the romanticisation of it as positive, having grown up with it (and am amused to note otherwise progressive men think it's sweet), but just to throw in some information - it's primarily a north Indian observance, women from Maharashtra, Gujarat and presumably Ash's own community have not traditionally followed it, and very few Bombay women I know keep the fast, even though it's been popularized in Bollywood films in recent years of course. One can presume there's at least a little bit of a desire to please the North Indian hubby and in-laws in her decision. And if she felt, in her own words, "torn," "confused" and "guilty" about whether to stay on in the US or not, then it clearly wasn't a cut and dry thing. Anyway, what others have said about a film decision not hinging on a few days makes sense, and perhaps that was just a small part of the story the media picked up on.
I think Karva Chauth is a useless custom. Why is my woman standing on the terrace and using a sieve to look at the moon when she should be using it to make rotis in the kitchen?
so did she observe karva chauth for abhishek? or for the peepul tree? i'm confused
Rahul, man, she's going to be throwing that sieve at you.
Karva Chauth is performed by women whose husbands are still alive to ensure their longevity. So, she couldn't observe it for the peepul tree. The main point of the tree marriage is to fool the omnipotent, but slightly dense, gods/planets into thinking that the tree is the husband (I believe consummation is also required) so that when the tree is chopped down and killed, the Manglik prophecy is fulfilled. And then she can marry the wooden husband of her choice without fear of any interplanetary repurcussions.
Carol, please chill out a little.
The problem is, the transcript of that interview on NDTV isn't currently available anywhere. We are discussing the New York Times piece, because that is the coverage we've seen in print.
Also, how do you know the NYT didn't do its own, fresh interview with Aish for this article? They have certainly written about her before.
46 · Rahul said
it's true, if the bourgeoisie family is a natural building block of capitalism, shouldn't the man (the capitalist) be feeding his wife (the proletariat) just enough to alienate the fruits of labor? karva chauth is just another excuse concocted by the labor union (old wives collective) to resist real work.
wimmen, get off your ass already, and polish the glass ceiling.
/jk :)
Rahul, I am throwing my sieve at you too :)
Yogi, I see that you are a man truly emancipated (from the kitchen). You need a sieve to remove impurities from the atta before you use it to make rotis.
49 · Rahul said
there's only one place where a husband should be wooden, and it's not called face :)
50 · Amardeep said
The problem is, the transcript of that interview on NDTV isn't currently available anywhere. We are discussing the New York Times piece, because that is the coverage we've seen in print.
Also, how do you know the NYT didn't do its own, fresh interview with Aish for this article? They have certainly written about her before.
It's written by the same person who conducted the TV interview. The NDTV should be available on youtube if you care to verify. No where in the TV interview did she make that statement about Karva Chauth. It was because of the grandmother being critically ill. The media as usual puts out their own spin.
37 · Chetna said
See, how you feel? And SRK said it in a ad for the whole world to see. And that's why the Bollywood stars need to be more responsible abt their actions.
The reason why this whole Aish incident hurts is b'cos now there are going to be a lot of in-laws who will be giving Aish's example to their Bahu and asking them to do this vrat. It angers us women.
I don't agree with this reasoning, and I'm a woman. Maybe because my family traditionally doesn't celebrate Karva Chauth and I highly doubt they'll ever expect me to. But in general I find this reasoning troublesome. Let's say there are some women who enjoy doing things that most women find degrading - does that mean they should not do it because some men may expect other women to do the same? While Ash is a public figure and may have more responsibility, Carol pointed out above that she never actually flaunted her practice of Karva Chauth. And similarly, regular people should take responsibility for their own choices (given that they are choices, even if there was a lot of pressure).
What makes you think I am a man?
um i was kidding rahul
Dude, Kush Tandon: I know BongBreaker ran away with my comment, but I hope you realize I was joking when I made that BJP reference. Though I think they might embrace (metaphorically only, please) Aish as an great face for the party since she's apparently so devout with all this Karva Chauth business.
56 · Carol said
yes, celebrities are known to be entirely honest and transparent about their motives.
carol, with your intimate knowledge of goings-on at jalsa, i'm beginning to think that you are actually amar singh.
Hmmm...Will Smith or Karva chauth?
No contest.
Also was her shaadi ki raat with the peepul tree consmumated?:)
61 · kusala said
I didn't suggest Ash would join the BJP. I just agreed stars wade into politics. No running, just expanding.
Rahul you know about making roti? What a girl. I bet your wife doesn't even fast. She's probably running around with some tree behind your roti-preparing back.
49 · Rahul said
i won't starve for you rahul, but my fast ways will do much for your longevity.
:P
Laughing so hard I cried.
I know. Maybe I should have added that disclaimer.
All you women frolicking around throwing your sieves, what do you think? That you are 60s Hindi heroines singing and playing tennicoit on the beach while Jeetendra gazes on?
SP@45,
Maharshtrian women have their vays.
I didn't bother to read the NYT article but I don't see anything regressive about this tradition at all. Tradition, with all of its constraints, ultimately helps cope with adversity. If the ever so liberated Americans on this blog are incapable of doing without food and water for a day, who then are the real slaves and who deserves to be called more free? It's so easy to just go for the superficial story and start rolling your eyes at what the backward, regressive Indians do. But all of these traditions have huge pay offs and you'd think that would be obvious, but of course such understanding is too much to expect from the ugly American.
Karva Chauth is a North Indian thing btw, in the south and in Maharashtra for example we don't follow it. This past Karva Chauth was my first one after getting married and we were invited to this huge shin dig with my inlaws where all these ladies had starved themselves all day for the long life of their husbands like the husbands promptly reduced it by drinking loads of whiskey!
Before I could even say a word my MIL promptly said to me "you aren't planning on following that mad rule are you because A. we don't celebrate it and B. you have to work all day please eat!" Of course my husband looked at me like I had 12 heads when I joked with him that I might do it. He's like "Yeah have a good time while I stuff myself, I'm starving, whats for breakfast!" Heheheh
Though let me tell you when I went to India this time around people partake in this husband worshipping bullshit like it was going out of business. Whatever. Doesn't fly with me. If I starve he better starve with me and since that boy is never starving himself for anyone I'm not going to start!
Yooo hooo Le khoof, the people's poet, what comes to mind when you hear the phrase "frolicking with sieves"?(and is that Bolero playing in the background)?
Valentines is very big in India so in addition to it being a tradition ..is karva Chauth done more as a romantic gesture?
>>Karva Chauth is performed by women whose husbands are still alive to ensure their longevity
This goes against the basic nature of woman...
M. Nam
8 · Amardeep said
That's great -- but isn't it a bit of a diasporic twist?
Amardeep, not a diasporic twist in the literal sense. My dad started doing that when my parents lived in India because he felt badly that my mom was fasting all day (and she was insistent upon it) so he figured he would just join her. I have other friends whose parents did the same. We always saw it as romantic and sweet. Of course it's certainly not the norm for husbands to fast on Karva Chauth, but I do think it is a nice way to invert what is otherwise a sexist tradition. (And, we do cheat a little by letter ourselves drink water and juice).
#70 and #71
i'm laughing a lot and i agree with JOAT, why should we starve if hubby is stuffing his face...LOL
Amen to that. I'm one of those women. I'm so far away from religion, I won't even say "oh god" in vain but I have learnt that when it comes to family respecting their wishes makes for an easier life. Sitting thru a puja to make the parental units happy isn't going to kill anyone. My mother was a very devout woman and the sicker she got the more she believed in god and wanted me to partake in all kinds of rituals and if my mother had asked me to walk thru fire I would have. It's not a big deal. Makes them happy. My MIL thank god a reasonable woman will always ask me first if I'd humor her about something.
Now having said all this let me tell you rituals like the Karva Chauth fasting is something perpetuated by the women in families. Men could care less and don't notice these things but women put the pressure on women to conform to tradition even if they themselves hated it at some point. It's a vicious cycle.
That's some searing truth, Joat, I've witnessed it too.
What? Now, Karva Chauth is really a technique from survival boot-camp to prevent a rehash of the Donner party on the Western Ghats?
Wives fasting for the well being of their husbands is only one part of Karva Chauth. Once they break their fasts in the evening it's their husbands who are supposed to cook/serve/feed them.
Once a Year??????
Bleh!
Ask Iyengars from the South ;-) We fast twice a month for Ekadashi!
So, after reading the thread, I felt that I wanted to comment. I am an ABD and Punjabi, and I have seen my mother and her friends practicing Karva Chowth every year. When I got married in 2005, to a Gujurati man, I was informed that it was not something that they did, so technically, I was not obligated to fast. However, I decided that this was part of my traditioin that I wanted to follow. The reason that I wanted to do Karva Chowth is not because I am some addle-brained woman who is regressive. The reason that I do practice Karva Chowth every year is because I do view it as a symbol of my devotion to my husband. Why would I have recited my Sanskrit vows at our wedding if I was not devoted to him? If being in a committed and loving relationship and being devoted to one's spouse is regressive, then lets just abolish marriage. Just as I show my devotion to my husband by fasting one day a year, he shows his devotion to me in a multitude of ways. Why must we assume that showing love is regressive and oppressive towards women? That kind of thinking to me is close-minded and selfish.
Just want to point out that Tom Cruise and Mel Gibson don't get 'vilified' for being religious but rather for staunchly following a bizarro sect and spewing anti-semitic views respectively.
I thought they just have to bring water for the wife to break the fast with? (And wikipedia's description says that wives sometimes drink the water that they've washed their husbands' feet with. I assume this is an extreme orthodox version).
bess, my knowledge of Hindi movies is not encyclopedic enough to get you an original rendition, but here's a segment from a spoof-anthology song in a movie from a few years ago. The relevant bit is at 04:23.
Seeing what happen's to most Indian women when they get married, I think this holiday should be more then a once a year thing..
Ahhhhhh snap... Just joking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8gqpnU0Ahc
from 2 min onwards. The Karva Chauth scene begins. When I asked my Gujarati friends they said they did not follow it and it was only added as a North Indian custom for the movie
84 · ShallowThinker said
OK, now that that barrier is broken... I was going to comment awhile back that cholis across the desh are taking exception to the assertion of all this "starvation" going on....
83 · Rahul said
He-he. That's a good bit.
If reference for "original" is really required then searching through Elvis movies might be more relevant.
81 · Nina said
Karva Chauth is not regressive per se. The reason why someone chooses to follow a particular tradition is more indicative whether their performing the activity is regressive or not.
If you think it is a way of expressing your love for your husband, great. If somebody pressurizes their daughter-in-law to fast (say if it is not medically indicated or the d-i-l chooses not to for whatever reason) and actually believes that not keeping the fast will shorten the life-expectancy of their son, or invite comments from relatives, then yes, that practice is regressive and disrespectful of an autonomous individual. Moreover, if women fast for their husbands believing their husband to be more deserving of respect (since some ceremonial enactments which are sometimes performed during Karva Chauth explicitly underscore the authority of the man over the woman) than themselves, that is regressive.
However, everyone is entitled to practice whatever rituals they choose to since all have a right to freedom of conscience. All I want to express is, AR is not worthy of a special gold star for doing what millions of Indian women do. For instance, many of my Punjabi school-teachers taught classes as normal and yelled at kids without sipping water or eating during the school day on KC. That was their choice, and more power to them for doing it out of their own volition. But does that mean they are better than Britney Spears or Amy Winehouse for that reason (Amardeep, sorry for belaboring that, but honestly, I just thought that was a bizarre statement)?
Amy Winehouse, for instance, is a very talented singer who for a variety of psychological and personal reasons is addicted to drugs. That is her own business, and she does that in the private domain. I don't condone the practice, or think that her status as a celebrity should let her escape legal consequences of what she does. But since I don't know her circumstances, I will not morally denounce her. Similarly, I'm not aware of why AR chose to go back to India for KC (I'm apt to take her word on this with more than a grain of salt), but that's her beeswax. But I'm not going to call her a pati-vrata or sati-savitri or a paragon of moral virtue for that.
But marrying a peepul tree = regressive, and ain't no one who's gonna change my mind on that one.
anyone else here have problems with fasting in and of itself?
Hi Moor Nam, have you actually had any romantic relationships with women, or are you just extrapolating from your encounters with those organisms with brain-sizes that correspond to yours?
Mel gets villified because he's an extreme Christian nut job, not just because he's a Christian. Tom Cruise, I don't understand - sure, we can mock him for his uninformed comments on psychiatry etc., but I don't understand why Scientology is inherently different than any other religion.
69 · Divya said
Right, but physical austerity is not the only manifestation of a liberated mind (it's neither necessary not sufficient IMO), and perhaps independent thinking and reasoning might be more indicative of that. Last time I checked , reasoned thought, open-mindedness, and autonomous actions were not casually connected with the nationality on one's passport.
could only agree with you if the woman stayed with the peepul tree for life--or at least until the thrill was gone and the peepul tree became strangely uncommunicative and distant. Otherwise it doesn't really seem to be a marriage at all.
Will Smith is an active recruiter for that afore mentioned bizarro sect:
Soon to jump the couch/shark on Oprah ?
in my university hostel in delhi, the girls used to observe karva Chauth for their boyfriends. this was in 2001-03.
Rahul: I don't understand why Scientology is inherently different than any other religion.
Cos it's a big bucket of jizz. Sure there are problems with most religions, but all the main ones I can think of have plenty of good lessons to teach. Scientology don't teach sh*t. Well apart from what to do when you pass a road accident, clearly.
Some of the stories in major religion are just as nonsensical as scientology. I think we tend to ridicule scientology more because we cant comprehend how someone can fall for a "religion" that was created by a man who lived in the media age and it should be easier to not fall for such a religion based on blind faith. I can understand how some people can fall for the major religions because many have been indoctinatred since birth making blind faith very easy.
It is just more recent. Intelligent design? Bridge built by monkeys? Why not aliens then?
If Scientology impels its true believers to help people out when they are in an accident, that is far better than most devout religious folks I know.
Portmanteau - Seems like you missed the point completely. Where have you developed your ideas of liberation from? The United States and its culture, isn't it? It could be that your narrow-minded conceptualization of liberation extends only as far as the freedom to wear the pants in the house for example, or drink and date at will. It could be that other cultures have a different idea of liberation. It could be that some cultures thought that none of this is liberating and that true freedom comes only through discipline. Cultures that revolve around such ideas may have worked towards developing conditions that would help fulfil their ideals. Perhaps rituals such as karva chauth grew out of this. Austerity is a very, very strong underlying theme in most indian traditions and manifests itself in a variety of ways. Now, if you or the NYT - i.e., "liberated" Americans, want to mock this, go right ahead. But don't delude yourself about being more liberated. I see more greed and neediness here than in most other parts of the world. Your carbon footprint attests to that.
Of course there is misery and abuse in all traditions. But this misery is no different from the misery that comes out of the liberty to do drugs or have sex. Rather than jump to the conclusion that those women are backward, any decent person would make a good faith attempt to understand the culture first.
Hey, they don't threaten to cut off people's heads for publishing pictures of L. Ron Hubbard... and they do apparently help accident victions. Can't be that bad.
Apparently, that dose of austerity comes with a healthy heaping of contempt for other cultures and a serving of patronization too.
Don't worry, Divya. Mormons with their magic underwear and the Old Testament with its proscriptions against spilling of seed have had their conceptions of discipline too. Ve Vesterners can control our urges too.
If the austerity of Hindu myth is going to be folded into all of current Indian culture, surely the protestant work ethic and compulsion to charity are inherent parts of Americana?
The fee structure for advancing in the 'faith' is a fairly large difference--all the tithing and zakat in the world won't get you to Scientology levels of bleeding the wallet for Hubbard Subsidies. That and how vague they tend to be--ever seen the infamous Tom Cruise 'insiders-only' video?
Of course xtianty has (had?) that same code of austerity running through their ethos. It's the liberal idea of liberation that was the target of the post. Rahul, I welcome criticism, but if all you want to do is show off how witty you are, I'm just going to ignore your posts.
99 · Divya said
No, I was raised in the desh; and my ideas about liberty and freedom come from the Bhagvad Gita + Sufism as much as they come from Thoreau, Locke, and Merton. I'm not parochial about where I find good ideas (I think). As I said physical austerity is often a marker of discipline (which is as much a part of the Indian ascetic tradition as it of many other religious orders), but sometimes it may just be an indicator of adherence to dogma or plain conformity because of the fear of standing out. I think my comment is clearly not a blanket condemnation of karva chauth:
If one undertakes activities of strict discipline without putting forth a good rationale, one's impulse control and perseverance are praiseworthy, but little can be said about moral capabilities. If X can keep up her lent sacrifice or ramadan fasts, but be an otherwise vile person, how can I praise her character? This was the point of my comment, which escaped you completely. Other acts of discipline, say taking cold showers to minimize energy consumption or refraining from purchasing anything unnecessary or using only public transportation to commute or even religiously-motivated acts of charity or consciously trying to be nice to hubby on an everyday level are better indicators of moral worth, IMO.
And examples of my nerdiness abound - but pray tell, how do you know about my greed? Or my endorsement of gratuitous sex and drugs? Certainly, I do not want the likes of you to be high and copulating. If only for the sake of the planet. I'm certainly working on reducing my carbon footprint. As should everybody. oh yeah, and my idea of liberation is walking around au naturel in the house, sans pants. i'm uber-liberated :P
like the naga sadhus, i might add.
I thought it was pretty funny.
Maybe you are unable to see my point since it is masked by my searing wit, but feel free to do whatever you want. Your broad caricatures of American conspicuous consumption, and exaltation of Indian austerity (have you seen anything about India's growing carbon footprint, or the ostentation of gold jewelry in Indian ceremonies?), neither of which are accurate, are what I was taking aim at.
Well, Hindu temples effectively determine who their trustees are, and who gets most influence in the temple affairs based on their contributions and ostentation. I don't know about Christianity, but influence there is again to the big contributors and the wealthy, not to the poor and abandoned.
Yeah, I saw that. I watched only the first 3 minutes or so, but then I was too bored and stopped watching. Seemed no different than any other doctrinaire follower in any other religion.
Cruise said they are the only ones that can help accident victims, not that they actually help (as some have noticed, this was a reference to the infamous vid). Irrespective...
I know about ID, creationism, jihad etc etc. I don't personally believe in religion. However any of the religions you highlight has a wealth of sound advice. The recentness of scientology counts against it. These religions were probably just as full of tosh when they started, but over the years they have evolved to contain much good stuff. Admittedly it's alongside a great deal of bad advice, but that's not my point. My point is Scientology has none of the good advice and all the loonery. I've researched it quite a bit for a series of articles I wrote. Scientology is more comparable to a cult, not a religion. And don't think it does no harm, at least two people have died when scientology told them they should not be taking their medicine.
*addendum - I accept that in a few centuries scientology might evolve to how mainstream religions are viewed today, but I maintain it is a different kettle of fish at present. So in a way, we're agreed Rahul/Vikram.